George Mason University’s CRU Responds to Eagle: Maybe They Should Try Being Kind

“Three things in human life are important: the first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind.”  ― Henry James link

sent from a friend

It depends on how you assess the situation.

I am spending a week on Sanibel Island, Florida, in the vacation home of my generous brother in law. I have been teased by some folks for our choice of vacation spot since John Piper called out a couple who retired to Punta Gorda, Florida. which is just north of Sanibel Island and is known for its beautiful sea shells. In 2007, Timmy Brister, a fan of John Piper wrote John Piper Ruined My Vacation.  First he quotes John Piper.

I tell you what a tragedy is. I’ll read to you from Reader’s Digest (Feb. 2000, p. 98) what a tragedy is: “Bob and Penny… took early retirement from their jobs in the Northeast five years ago when he was 59 and she was 51. Now they live in Punta Gorda, Florida, where they cruise on their 30 foot trawler, play softball and collect shells.” The American Dream: come to the end of your life – your one and only life – and let the last great work before you give an account to your Creator, be “I collected shells. See my shells.” THAT is a tragedy. And people today are spending billions of dollars to persuade you to embrace that tragic dream. And I get forty minutes to plead with you: don’t buy it.

This is what Brister had to say.

Friday afternoon, my wife and I saw the shells. 

We decided to go to the beach, and it was recommended that we check out Sanibel Island (just a few miles south of Punta Gorda), “the seashell capital of the world.”  My wife and I walked just a short distance down the beach and saw the scores of people walking away with buckets of shells and loads of smiles. 

I wasn’t smiling.

I couldn’t smile because all I could think about was that message seven years ago that Piper preached on that open field outside Memphis, Tennessee.  My mind was taken to the judgment seat of Christ and the picture of my life epitomized by the offer of seashells!  I know this sounds funny, and I did laugh at myself about this (no, I did not take any shells home).  But in the midst of a ruined vacation, I began to praise God for the influence of such an illustration.

I was sad to see how Brister, without question, accepted the assumptions of John Piper. Piper formed unprovable conjectures about Bob and Penny. Let me retell the story from another plausible set of assumptions.

Bob and Penny spent years working for Kraft Foods and Johnson and Johnson. They worked very hard to earn enough money to retire earlier than other folks. During that time, they tithed to their local church which permitted the local church to expand and buy fog machines and an awesome Gospel™ coffee shoppe. Bob and Penny were in church most Sundays and led a small group in their home.

However, they found their Christian walk a bit of a bore and wondered how much they were truly serving their neighbors and the poor. So, they retired early. Instead of spending 10 hours a day at their job, they enjoyed collecting shells and sailing, spending a number of hours enjoying God's beautiful creation and thanked Him for the time to appreciate it. They played softball in order to actively exercise as well as develop relationships with others on their team. They had extra time which they used to volunteer at the local homeless shelter and they took underprivileged children for marvelous trips on their sailboat.

Assuming the worst about people who collect shells.

John Piper made some assumptions about Bob and Penny in the story. Somehow, they are serving God if they work hard at a John Piper approved job. So, if they stay at their corporate jobs and give money to the church, they are "serving God." However, if they retire from corporate America and move to Florida, then they are wasting their lives. 

Piper is assuming that Bob and Penny are behaving in an unGospel™ fashion. He doesn't even bother to find out anything about about them except that they collect shells, go sailing and play softball. I read dystopian fiction, I like to travel, and I love to cook. I do lots more than that as well. But, naughty me, I guess.

Maybe kindness is the key.

Years ago, I read an article in Christianity Today called "Being Nice Is Not the Point." I have been unable to find it online and my copy of it is back in Raleigh. However, the point of the article was something like this. Christianity is not about being kind and nice. It is about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the forgiveness of sins. I got the point.

However, the article seemed to downplay the importance of kindness. Yes, Christianity is more than kindness. However, kindness is a virtue that I have come to believe is being downplayed, especially in this new wave of arrogant, young, know-it-all dude-bros.

Last week, I listened to a panel of Christian physicians and dentists discuss the role faith played in their lives. A medical student asked them how they demonstrated their faith in their work. One physician answered this question in an unusual way. He is a nationally known head of a section of medicine in a large university setting. He is known for being an expert clinician, researcher as well as a Christian. 

His response startled me. He said:

I know this is going to sound a bit odd but I think one of the best ways to demonstrate your faith is to be nice to the people around you.

At first, I thought his answer was trite as I though back to that Christianity Today article. But, I knew this man and I know how well he is thought of by his peers. The more I thought about his answer, the more it began to make sense to me. He is involved in a high stress clinical specialty. It is not uncommon for people to blame each other when a patient is not doing well. But he is known to be different. He is always kind in the midst of high level stress. The medical staff enjoys being around him and his patients love him.

How do Christian leaders exhibit kindness and grace in their everyday lives?

Jesus was quite big on turning the other cheek. He had this to say in Matthew 5:39 NIV

But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

Jesus showed grace and love to those who questioned Him with the intent to understand what He was saying. He was not very big on the Pharisees (the religious leaders) who He said were leading his beloved people astray.

Over the last 10 years or so, I have witnessed a deterioration of kindness in the evangelical Christian faith. One needs only look at the blowhard statements of Mark Driscoll and others to understand that kindness is not longer seen as virtue in some Christian circles. 

For a number of years prior to blogging, I followed the stories at ExChristian.Net The folks taught me quite a bit about listening to them. Some were angry by how they were treated by the church. They used strong language to convey their disgust, some of it justified, at the church. I know that if I wanted to reach out to people, I would have to be willing to overlook difficult accusations and strong language in order to get to heart of the person who was writing me. I would need to exhibit kindness, even when I felt threatened or misunderstood. It isn't easy and I fail regularly but I keep trying.

Words have consequences

One of those people was Eagle. He challenged me on issues regarding pain and suffering and did not let me get away with trite answers. The reason that I was able to do this was directly due to the people at ExChristian.Net. They taught me to look beyond the communication style and get to the heart of the matter.

I am not saying that I am there yet but I am getting better as each day passes. This post is to urge Christians to be aware that their words are being read and, in this case, seem by many, many people all over the place.

CRU-George Mason University

Eagle became concerned when he found out that the CRU ministry at George Mason University was actively encouraging their members to attend SGM Fairfax. He wrote a post and sent it along with this following email to the CRU chapter at George Mason University. Eagle has been a stalwart supporter of those who have been deeply wounded by the group formerly know as Sovereign Grace Ministries. He has come to know some of the SGM Survivors and believes their stories as do many others. Eagle cares about the victims and is often surprised by those who seem to blow it off.

His email:

Good day-

I wrote a post at Wondering Eagle asking why does Cru at George Mason University recommend Sovereign Grace Fairfax. In the post I discussed how:

1. Sovereign Grace Fairfax was at ground zero for the largest lawsuit in evangelical Christian history for allegedly covering up child sex abuse. Is it the Gospel to cover up child sex abuse?

2. The history of the shepherding movement

3. Retold the stories of some of the spiritual abuse hemorrhaging out of SG Fairfax. Including of a SG Fairfax Pastor who told a wife to have more sex with her husband in response to him   molesting his daughter. And to put a lock on the door to keep him out at night.

4. The struggle evangelical Christians have with discernment and critical thinking skills.

5. Wondered why Cru would recommend a church that is in a movement (9 Marks) that doesn't believe that organizations like Cru should even exist. I attached an article from Jonathan Leeman for you to read.

6. Wondered why Brett & Krista Miller and other Cru staff are not protecting the sheep but leading the sheep to a wolf (Mark Mullery), and reminding Cru of their responsibility to protect the sheep.

As always you are free to leave a comment.  This was written by a guy who was involved in Cru for years and planted a chapter in the Midwest. This post will probably show up in SGM Survivors where I imagine Cru and SG Fairfax will be discussed.  

Very Respectfully,
Eagle 

Here is the response from B.M. a CRU leader. I have decided not to embarrass him by posting his full name. Character and kindness is seen when it is neither expected or when one believe that it won't be seen by others. Unfortunately, this individual has a long way to go.

Subject: Re: Wondering Eagle – Why is Cru at George Mason Recommending Sovereign Grace Fairfax? Is that Wise?
To: "Eagle ." <wonderingeagle261@gmail.com>

Respectfully sir I have no idea who you are. You don't know my wife and I and we don't know what you're talking about. Your email appears at the very least disrespectful and cowardly. 

A more loving, effective and biblical approach would have been to contact me privately to set a time for a face to face conversation if you truly have concerns. 

Thanks .
B.M.(my real name)

Unfortunately, BM turns Eagle's concerns about SGM Fairfax into Eagle being the problem. BM does not address the issue whatsoever and commences to name call Eagle as "disrespectful" and "cowardly." 

Since George Mason's CRU posts recommendations for churches on a public website, it is perfectly appropriate for someone to approach them both through the internet and in a public setting.

Finally, the way the BM strikes out at Eagle demonstrates the need for those who confront a problem to do so in an anonymous fashion. Why would anyone want to subject themselves to name calling by a CRU leader?

Sadly, I would not be able to recommend CRU  at George Mason University to anyone who is questioning the faith. It appears that the leaders are not interested in being kind or turning the other cheek. It would have been so easy for BM to answer Eagle kindly. He could have asked for a time to talk with him. He might have engaged him with questions. Instead, he name calls which is usually found in spiritually abusive ministries. Note that BM never once asks about the victims, another red flag.

CRU's goal, on the surface, seems to be to push churches that line up to a certain doctrinal standard and to broach no question on the choice of these churches. This response causes me to question how CRU chapters choose their churches. I would recommend that all prospective participants in CRU at any university check out their recommended churches. If all they recommend are SGM/SGC, 9 Marks, or ACTS 29 churches, I would say that an agenda is afoot and that kindness may take a back seat to gospel™ doctrine.

Note to Timmy Brister: I am enjoying my vacation. Stop listening to John Piper and discover the beauty around you.Tomorrow, I shall waste me life and collect a bucket of shells in honor of John Piper.


Addendum (9/24/15, 2:15 p.m.) by Deb

Regarding the response Eagle received from a CRU leader at George Mason University, specifically his statement:

Respectfully sir I have no idea who you are. You don't know my wife and I and we don't know what you're talking about. Your email appears at the very least disrespectful and cowardly

I believe a post we published over four years ago (July 29, 2011) should go a long way in explaining Eagle's great concerns about Sovereign Grace Church Fairfax.  Here is that post in its entirety.  After reading it, you may want to go over to the original post and read through the comments, which are also eye opening.


Confessions of an SGM Pastor (link)

“The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live. "                 Leo Buscaglia

courtesy of NASAsunset over the Sahara (NASA)

Sovereign Grace Ministries has been experiencing tremendous upheaval since C.J. Mahaney stepped down earlier this month. Almighty God appears to be bringing conviction to the hearts of some SGM leaders, and only time will tell whether these “heart changes” are the real deal.

Mark Mullery, senior pastor of the Sovereign Grace Church in Fairfax, made a public confession of his sins when he addressed the congregation last Sunday (July 24th) at a Family Meeting. These confessions were directed toward former members of the church, namely Noel and Wallace.

For those not familiar with these individuals and their testimonies, Noel is a wife and mother who discovered that her three year old daughter had been molested by a 15 year old boy who attended SGM Fairfax along with his family. Her story has been archived at SGM Survivors in three installments. You can begin reading here.

Wallace and his wife Happymom are also former members of SGM Fairfax, and their two children were sexually abused. We featured their story here at TWW on April 12, 2011. (link) SGM Survivors has also archived Wallace’s Story here.

Each of these families has suffered terribly in the aftermath of their children’s sexual abuse, but what’s even more devastating is that they were spiritually abused by their own pastors!

Last Sunday evening Mark Mullery gave an emotional confession that confirmed the testimonies of Noel and Wallace. You can access the audio of the Fairfax Family Meeting at this link. http://media.sovgracefairfax.org/mp3/07-24-11%20Family%20Meeting.mp3 Because we have followed both of these stories so closely, we wanted to update our readers with Mark Mullery's remarks regarding Noel and Wallace. Here is a transcript of Mullery’s confession.  

*****************************************************************

  “We are in a time when Sovereign Grace Ministries and Sovereign Grace Church here in Fairfax are being critiqued for the way pastors have led. As I mentioned earlier, there are several blogs that have focused on these issues. Two stories in particular have appeared on those blogs that address situations in this church and address our pastors in particular. What follows is a confession in response to these stories entitled Noel’s Story and Wallace’s Story.

Romans 12:15, the second half simply says: “Weep with those who weep.” This is a good place to start when it comes to the topic of sexual abuse and the sexual abuse of children. By now many of you have become aware of two stories on Sovereign Grace Ministries Survivor blog and the Refuge blog as well I believe — one called Noel’s Story, the other Wallace’s Story. Both of these individuals were at one time members of our church, and both have sad stories to tell.

Noel, a pen name, recounts the tragic story of the sexual assault of her young daughter, which occurred in 1998. Wallace, also a pen name, tells of having two children molested – the incidents coming to light in 1998 and 2007. In each of these cases the perpetrators were young men whose families were also part of our church.

These incidents are still exceedingly painful for these families and understandably so. No parent, no compassionate person can learn of these sins without experiencing sorrow, grief, and heartache over the violation of these innocent children.

But as sad as this is, it gets worse. When these incidents came to light, these families were in trouble. These were children who were victims who had been horribly sinned against. “Blessed are the merciful,” Jesus says, and moments like this require extraordinary amounts of tender care, of merciful comfort. This is a time to bind up the brokenhearted and to weep with those who weep.

And that’s just what your pastors did, right? Well, with deep regret I confess, we didn’t. Noel and Wallace are justified in critiquing the pastoral care they received through their trials and afflictions. Sadly, and it breaks my heart to tell you this, sadly in seeking to care for them, we became part of their trial. Like Job’s counselors, we came in a time of need and made things worse. Looking back, we made many mistakes. Here are a few.

We lost sight of the victim. These are complicated moments in the swirl of all the other things to think about, we lost sight of the simple fact that an innocent victim had been grievously sinned against and was in need of constant care. One of the moms reflected to me later and said for us this was 24/7.

We should have followed up more and over a longer period of time. We failed to surround the victims and their families with care. Failed to SURROUND them. Our instincts were to keep the circle of those who knew about this small. We weren’t trying to cover anything up, but we did want to protect the identity of the victim.

Sadly, this left the victim’s parents without the support system they needed at the time when they most needed it. We should have made sure more people knew and knew quickly. Both people in their care group where they needed to be able to work these things through and close trusted friends as well. Many more people were needed to be in place to extend care to the victim’s family. We failed.

These were situations where the family of the victim and the family of the perpetrator were friends. There were pre-existing, close relationships. As they’re trying to sort these things through, when relational conflicts arose between the victim’s family and the perpetrator’s family, we unwisely used a Peacemaker model for conflict resolution. This resulted, put them on an equal plane – get the log out of your eye, get the log out of your eye, go for the speck, go for the speck – this resulted in the victim’s family being corrected when they should have been gently cared for as sufferers.

Oh, I’m so sad. We allowed that to happen and led and participated in that way. I did that. Our aversion to therapeutic thinking kept us from language and people and resources that would have helped these families and that would have helped us help these families. We didn’t give hurting people room to air their emotions.

How in the world is somebody whose child has just been cruelly sexually abused gonna process that flawlessly? Of course, it’s gonna be raw. But instead of giving them the room to work things through, we corrected them, and they expressed themselves in ways that we deemed incorrect. I’m so sorry. We were proud. We didn’t know what we didn’t know. We were ignorant.

The hurts from these sins, the effect of sexual abuse of a child runs deeper and lasts longer than any of us could have imagined. We’ve been accused of not getting it. Guilty as charged. We didn’t get it. I’m so sorry. (Long tearful pause)

These aren’t just stories or statistics; these are people. As an elder and the senior pastor, I had opportunities to bring mercy and grace, to bind up the brokenhearted, to comfort the suffering. I was trying. I was attempting to be helpful, but it pains me to see how often in retrospect I wasn’t. I deeply regret my impatience, self-righteousness, pride, hardheartedness. These things compounded their suffering instead of easing it.

We’ve reached out to Noel, to Wallace, their spouses and families. It pains me to say, it grieves me to say, that our attempts to be reconciled to them have not proven successful so far. Please pray that this might happen.

Now for some of you, this may hit home because you may feel that you too have been hurt or mistreated by your pastors here. If that’s the case, sorry. And we want to humble ourselves, and we want to make things right.

If you don’t feel safe talking to us, please bring a friend, write a note, reach out to us in some way. We really want to hear from you. We want to listen to you. We want to learn from you. We don’t want to correct you. We want to discover where we’ve hurt you, where we’ve sinned against you and seek your forgiveness so we can change.

We deeply regret our failures with these families. We deeply regret the pain that we have caused, but we do thank God that we have a risen Savior in heaven. Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. By God’s grace we commit ourselves to learning, growing, and changing so that no parent ever has this experience in this church again.

We can’t agree with everything that’s written about us on the blogs, but we’ve tried to go to school on what we can agree with. We want our children to be safe. We want children who are hurt, victimized, and abused to be well cared for and their families as well. We’ve tried to learn from our mistakes. We’ve tried to learn from these experiences and to make substantive changes in response.”  

**************************************************************

  Earlier this week a former SGM pastor speculated over at SGM Survivors that Mark Mullery did not contact Noel and Wallace prior to the Family Meeting to let them know he would be discussing their stories and issuing a confession.  Here is his comment. (link)

Rom828 (comment #211) July 27th, 2011 at 10:46 pm

"All this is quite overwhelming to someone new like myself. I entered like most sharing my two cents worth on arrival but really it takes time to absorb all that is said, felt and expressed on this site. Hard to keep up with which testimony is whose. So I am sitting back, listening, reading and learning what I can. One thought on Mark Mullery… if I am an SGM pastor (which I was) I would at least call the people I would be talking about in the meeting (hopefully he did but it does not sound like it) expressing that I would be following up with them on this. I would say please take what we will say as a teeny attempt at expressing our horror, sadness and regret for all that transpired. Please let’s get together and talk so that the pastors involved can adequately confess our sin to you and then more clearly and definitively confess our sin before the church. Just my thought… hopefully this happened… we’ll see. As someone mentioned… I would not want to hear from friends or mp3 or video what was said about me to a congregation by a pastor without hearing from him first."

Then yesterday morning Wallace’s wife, whose moniker is “happymom”, confirmed Rom828's theory in a comment on the Survivors blog (same link as Rom828’s): happymom (comment #245) July 28th, 2011 at 6:48 am

"Something I find interesting.  Fairfax posted their response to the SGM issues on their Facebook account. July 10, 2011, Mark refers to us as “voices on the internet…speaking to the issues and OUR CHURCH IN PARTICULAR.” If not Noel, Grizzly, Wallace and myself, who else could he be referencing, since we have been the ones seeking to expose how they handle abuse? So how did he transition from labeling us as “voices” to the group of people he is now tearful over in front of his church? Why were we not informed of this sudden acknowledgment of wrongdoing? (emphasis mine) Their final summary letter to us dated September 30, 2010, clearly lays out that we were wrong and pastor lg is right. Are they now willing to hear our questions and allow pastor lg to answer them? This is not a family issue if the staff continues to ignore our challenges to lg’s apologies and cover him. I am appalled that pastor lg mentioned child b’s name when the behavior and abandonment of him and his family have caused as much emotional pain and suffering as the incident itself."

At the Fairfax Family Meeting, two other pastors (Vince and Lou) addressed the congregation.  Lou is HappyMom's brother-in-law.  Yes, the uncle of Wallace and HappyMom's children confessed that he sinned against his own flesh and blood by not comforting them in their time of tremendous need.  You can hear Lou's apology in the audio link above.

I am continuing to follow the comments over at SGM Survivors, and last night Noel posted her initial response to Mark Mullery’s confession.  She shares that she "cried as Mark confessed to the church and was so encouraged that he was finally trying to do something right."

However, the remarks made by Vince and Lou upset her terribly.  Based on her candid reaction, it appears Vince and Lou spoke in such generalities that they misled the congregation about what really happened.  She concludes her reaction with these words:  

"Tell the truth about who tried to reconcile……tell the truth about why these families are not reconciled.  Stop with the "damage control" already!  Tell the truth." Sadly, it appears there is much more work that needs to be done before any kind of reconciliation can take place between the SGM Fairfax pastors and these victimized families.  May God's will be done in this tragic situation.

Comments

George Mason University’s CRU Responds to Eagle: Maybe They Should Try Being Kind — 276 Comments

  1. Kindness seems to have taken a back seat to strong words and strong stances. Not that strong stances are necessarily wrong, but some of the “strong stances” I took when I was in my early 20’s seem pretty silly now that I’m middle aged.

    And because I like scripture:

    “And be kind to one another, tender hearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake has forgiven you.”

    “It is the kindness of God that leads to repentance.”

    “The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, KINDNESS, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control.”

    (Those may be the new “krunchy” version.)

    And I just got back from the beach. There weren’t many shells. But the sand, the ocean, and the sunsets breathed new life to my soul. I worshipped there.

  2. I sent the CRU leader a long email in response. Then I stopped and thought about it and decided maybe its better to meet with him in person and discuss the issues of Sovereign Grace Fairfax. So in light of the email in response I sent the following email:

    B****-

    How about this, would you be amenable to lunch? I would buy and we could discuss this in person. Its your call. If you would like to do that I would be happy to do meet and talk about this in person.

    Very Respectfully,

    (My real name)

    Then I get the following email a couple of days later from George Mason Cru. The Cru leader says the following:

    Hey (real name),

    Thanks for the offer. I appreciate you pursuing lunch together.

    I have discussed this issue about Sovereign Grace with several godly men inside and outside the church and they’ve assured me that years ago all was dealt with in a very biblical manner, that nothing was covered up but brought into the light for healing purposes.

    Therefore, I don’t see a need to meet up and talk in person, but Pastor Vince Hinders from Sovereign Grace told me he’d be happy to meet with anyone concerning these issues. Would you like his contact info?

    Thanks (real name)! God bless.

    Brett

  3. I think those shells show up in Don’t Waste Your Life, too, because I remember at that PCA church everyone was talking about the Shell Illustration and how profound and moving it was. No one in my family made it to that point in the book (too little content for how flowery and verbose it was), so I’m not surprised to find out that the famous Shell Illustration doesn’t move me. The rest of the book didn’t either.

  4. Well, another heartless evangelical ‘Christian’ whose response to claims of abuse at his favorite ‘church’ is to completely dismiss the claims out of hand and attack the questioner without ANY concern about possible abuse. Is it any wonder that people are turning away from Christianity in droves because they see Christian ‘leadership’ as demonstrated by BM and his ilk as nothing but a fraud.

  5. I would not be recommending Cru in George Mason, and in looking at CRU in the DC area I have really deep concerns about the ministry here. I am honestly wondering about their ability to practice discernment and think critically.

    I can’t believe after all the stories that have poured out of Sovereign Grace Fairfax – all the child sex abuse, all the spiritual abuse, etc… that SGM Fairfax would still be recommended. Would the leadership of CRU at George Mason or in the DC area be willing to meet with those who have been hurt by SGM Fairfax?

    What troubles me is that anyone can look into SG Fairfax and see the issues that exist. You don’t need a PHD to do some research to see the problems Sovereign Grace Fairfax has, and in likelihood still has. So I meet with Vince Hinders and what, be told I am “sinfully craving answers?”

    I spent a good chunk of time in Cru, and the Cru chapter at Marquette University is my direct legacy. This deeply troubles me. You know the other issue that bothers me is this…the second email in response.

    The Cru leader doesn’t want to know the facts.
    The Cru leader doesn’t want to meet or hear another side of the story.
    The Cru leader is going to listen to the leadership of SG Fairfax and take their advice. No critical thinking, no discernment, the Cru chapter at GMU needs Bereans.

    This was deeply disappointing for me.

  6. @ Hester:

    You know I took a job and moved in part from Milwaukee to Washington, D.C. because I was under the Piper kool aid and I thought my life would be waste unless I did something grand. That’s a god chunk of why I came here. You know what is a wasted life? Reading John Piper….

    This was the neatest John Piper post I have written over at my blog. I examined and looked into the personality cult of John Piper and Chairman Mao. I also looked at the influence that personality cult had on its followers. All the grad level history really paid off here! Yeah when you graduate from Marquette you have a student loan debt equal to the national debt of Nicaragua. But it works in the end! 🙂

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/05/11/the-little-red-book-of-john-piper/

  7. Hester wrote:

    I’m not surprised to find out that the famous Shell Illustration doesn’t move me.

    What? You aren’t moved by the joy vampire sucking the blood of awe, wonder, and all other good things out of our lives while replacing it with the toxins of guilt, condemnation, and shame?
    Why the heck not?

  8. Here’s another thing I don’t get. Why does Cru recommend 9 Marks churches or the 9 Marks movement of Capital Hill Baptist Church. Don’t they realize that Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever don’t believe that organizations like Cru should even exist? And Its not just Cru its any para church ministry such as Navigators, IVCF, etc… According to the theology of Jonathan Leeman no para church organization should exist. So why is a Cru chapter recommending 9 Marks organizations. I actually wrote about 9 Marks and their policy here.

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/08/14/sebts-church-discipline-conference-9-marks-jonathan-leeman-and-eric-cartman-say-respect-my-authoritah/

  9. You know Dee, you could do something that an Air Force Captain from Redeemer Arlington was unable to do. In how you engaged me you had the intellectual engagement that many evangelicals are hard to come by.

    Thanks Mom! 🙂

  10. Michael Spencer, who was a bit more of a Piper fan a decade ago than towards the end of his life, still wrote a critique of Piper’s shells story:

    Now, call me whatever you want, but I’m bothered by something. What’s wrong with collecting shells and playing softball? Not what is wrong compared with these things in excess or when compared to something else, but as they are- simple pleasures in God’s world? The “serious Christian” says it is time wasted; time that could have been spent on real “treasure.” Missions, prayer and evangelism. The “fun” of the real disciple is the wartime life. But is this right?

    http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/58928

  11. Eagle wrote:

    I have discussed this issue about Sovereign Grace with several godly men inside and outside the church and they’ve assured me that years ago all was dealt with in a very biblical manner, that nothing was covered up but brought into the light for healing purposes.

    Couple of questions I would like to ask…

    1. How is Godly defined?
    2. I wonder if any of the people who told their stories at SGM Survivors and dealt with SGM Fairfax would agree with that statement that its all in the past and everything has been brought out in the light and dealt with.

  12. See, the problem with Timmy is he lives/lived in Cape Coral. Plus the only Sanibel he knows is Sanibel AfterTheBridge. That is enough to make anyone cranky and unappreciative of God’s glory displayed in seashells. He is clearly bitter because he missed prime shelling conditions BeforeTheBridge. It is somewhat analogous to Pre-fall and Post-fall. 🙂

    Can Timmy make anything like a seashell? I don’t think even John Piper can make a seashell. I would say, based on personal experience, that one can worship God and praise him for his glory and power by observing the beautiful things which a lowly invertebrate sea creature has cast off. Shells are a testimony to our creator that is no less worthy of our attention than one of Timmy’s sermons. Or even one of Toms!

    Maybe if they would get their noses out of books and look around at what God has done and is doing, they might appreciate the way that the shells cry out God’s glory.

  13. Dee, another church in the 9 marks is about to be exposed, I’m scared and excited at the same time to take this journey with you. The person helping is getting their ducks in a row before the big day when they are served. I had no idea john piper who by the way is highly revered at this particular church said such things.

  14. The story about CRU truly makes me sad. I have CCC connections from a long time ago, and I cannot imagine any of the people I knew then being involved with the Sovereign Grace mess, much less recommending that students attend a Sovereign Grace church. They were very concerned about *all* the cults springing up on Christian campuses in the sixties and seventies, which included the various shepherding and lunatic-fringe charismatics. It used to be that CCC focused on exposition of the Bible, and the only celebrities were Bill and Vonette Bright.

    Dear Brett, please do some spiritual breathing and reconsider where you are sending very vulnerable college students. Please consider carefully the importance of the Biblical qualifications for elders which includes the ability to teach sound doctrine and practice and refute false doctrine and practice. CCC used to be all about the Bible and what it teaches, and especially the staff I knew were very humble people who loved the students more than anything. Nothing like anything we have seen among the Gospel Glitterati. Please reconsider.

  15. So, let me get this straight. The Cru guy asks the church that is accused of abuse if it is guilty of said abuse. And then takes their word for it. Anyone see anything wrong with that picture?

  16. Dee ~ collect all the sea shells you want! God show his handiwork and a small bit of His magnificence in every single one of them!
    Hester wrote:

    I think those shells show up in Don’t Waste Your Life,

    Some people at a church gave me a copy of Don’t Waste Your Life last Christmas. I didn’t read it. It’s in a box in the attic. We have wood heat. I think I’ll use my copy to start fires this fall.
    Eagle wrote:

    No critical thinking, no discernment, the Cru chapter at GMU needs Bereans.

    Sometimes I think that half of the people who control things at our colleges are idiots while the other half of them are looking out for themselves, with only a few exceptions. My 30 year old daughter is back in college working on a computer tech degree. She tells her younger classmates to think critically, research for themselves, and weigh the odds before following the advice of any of the higher at the college in both their personal lives and academia!

    How a leaders send our young people into places like SGMs with a clear conscious???

  17. A more loving, effective and biblical approach …

    What an ironic thing to say in such a harsh reply.

    Besides the classic “shoot the messenger” this fits the M.O. of authoritarian church leaders. In my experience they were often nasty, condescending, dismissive, cruel, and careless, but I always had to speak in the most tender terms and act in the most thoughtful manner.

    To the contrary I would say they are concerned over kindness and sermonize on it, but only we lowly laity are supposed to adhere. I recoil from these types as it dredges up those experiences where I often had to make the decision to overlook and forgive the pastor or his staff but there was no reciprocity. One wrong move, especially if you are at all critical, and BAM, you are out. No second chance.

    Why doesn’t B.M have any self doubt, no introspection, that he can respond in such a manner and call himself a representatives of Christ?

  18. Hester wrote:

    (too little content for how flowery and verbose it was)

    This is how I feel about the Piper books I have read or started. I don’t understand the appeal.

  19. Eagle wrote:
    Brett wrote:

    “I have discussed this issue about Sovereign Grace with several godly men inside and outside the church and they’ve assured me that years ago all was dealt with in a very biblical manner, that nothing was covered up but brought into the light for healing purposes.

    This is more or less the same response we have received from more than one church leader regarding Mahaney and Sovereign Grace. To me, it just made the men who said it seem unconcerned about serious matters, and I have never been able to reconcile that level of response with the level of wrongdoing at Sovereign Grace. Why do these men just blow this off as if it is nothing much at all? Child abuse of all kinds is very serious. Spiritual abuse of the flock by false shepherds is very serious.

  20. Bill M wrote:

    Why doesn’t B.M have any self doubt, no introspection, that he can respond in such a manner and call himself a representatives of Christ?

    Because he was Predestined before the creation of the world as One of The Elect?

  21. @ Gram3:

    Gram3 I look at some of this and wonder at times why I pushed back from Mormonism and atheism given how many problems exist in Christianity. I’m grateful my Cru chapter in Milwaukee was not like this at all. But its very disappointing.

  22. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Because he was Predestined before the creation of the world as One of The Elect?

    Oh great, the new demonstration you are part of the elect, not wealth, just acting like an arse. But not to worry, you can depend on the “Perseverence” part of TULIP so regardless how big a jerk you get to stay part of the elect. This sounds like God is the one without free will.

  23. “They used strong language to convey their disgust”

    I’ve done that, probably shouldn’t have, yet, It made the point and rescued some.

    Probably would do it again.

  24. We seem to forget that kindness (and gentleness) is one of the fruits of the Spirit – a mark of a follower of Christ – in our desire for power and influence.

    Good post!

  25. These days, I tend to look at their responses to these things from a psychological view. I just cannot help it after so many years of it. He uses the code term “godly men” which is supposed to shut down discussion. The “godly men” assured him it was handled “biblically”. (See, Carl Trueman, how much damage your participation on the that exoneration panel would do for years afterward? Now they can call your exoneration “biblical” and redefine God)

    The goal of Brett is to shut Eagle down. To make his negative truths go away. Therefore, Eagle is the problem. There is no interest in larger truths, right and wrong or the people devastated by the actions of SGM. Especially the innocent victims of molestation and abuse. Pure evil. Brett has allowed himself to be part of the problem.

    But what I found even more chilling is the suggestion that an SGM affiliated and trained pastor could explain it all to Eagle. It might be worth the lunch just to hear that twisted explanation. But it would also make you a huge target. I would not even tell these men where you work or live.

  26. Eagle wrote:

    Why are evangelical Christians terrible at conflict resolution?

    Good question, Eagle, and I was pondering a response for the Open Discussion page; but since it’s directly pertinent to the thread here, I’ll get a move on and actually post it.

    Point 1 of 3: the Idol of Scribsher

    Bear with me a moment:
    ****
    The thing to understand here is that our final authority in all matters related to conflict is the Bible. My opinions are not my own but are taken in simple obedient faith from God’s perfect and infallible Word; therefore, “my” opinions are infallible because they are God’s opinions. It follows that anyone who disagrees with me, disagrees with God. It is my responsibility to teach and correct them, by any means, so that they understand the Truth of God’s Word as I’m trying to expound it to them.
    ****
    Now, obviously, the above is nonsense. It’s also incredibly widespread. The enormous hole in the plot is that my opinions are NOT taken in simple obedient faith from anywhere, but are in large part the product of my own interpretations of scribsher. The reason I use the word “Idol” to describe scribsher in the heading above is that an idol can’t talk: it can only use whatever words we put in its mouth. Likewise, scribsher is a book, and although it contains words, those words are fixed and it cannot explain itself. It is incredibly easy to put words in the “mouth” of scribsher, and pretend to myself – even believe – that I’m NOT doing it, but that I am actually letting it speak. Obviously I believe in my own sincerity because I think I experience it personally, and I can’t so experience the sincerity of others. So they look like they’re distorting or misunderstanding scribsher which of course I would never do.

    Once we’ve put our opinions in the mouth of infallible scribsher, the conflict is cemented in place: it would actually be wrong for us to back down or concede any ground. Prolonging a conflict is a small price to pay to “defend the truth”.

    Point 2 of 3: Sheer lack of practice

    Evangelicals, and Protestants generally, might have historically rejected the iron fist of Popish imperialism etc etc, but that doesn’t in itself make the replacement any better than the Church of Rome (real or imagined), and in practice evangelicals are splintered into many independent fragments. I can’t remember who said it, but in that culture, it’s very easy to settle our differences simply by dividing into groups consisting of people who don’t disagree. Thus, we simply don’t get to hang around people we strongly disagree with and learn to see through difference. Evangelical churches can become very mono-cultural.

    I remember once reading the story of a chap here in the UK back in the 1980’s who had gone from being a violently racist far-right activist to being a passionate opponent of racism. It all happened because he found himself sharing a workplace with a black man. Circumstances forced him to confront the fact that the two of them were exactly as human as each other. The equivalent rarely happens in evangelicalism.

    Point 3 of 3: Weak traditions of teaching

    I don’t think there’s much evangelical teaching on what it actually means to love one another when our gut reaction says otherwise. Too many evangelical clergymen are educated theologically but not otherwise, and even there, at least some of the point of theological training is to condition a person according to a certain doctrinal tradition and to show them why We are right and They are wrong. But why is it so hard to love people who are different from ourselves? What makes us comfortable with some differences but not others? These, and a thousand other questions, are rarely addressed with any great effort in evangelicalism, and still less do we actively seek out teachers who have striven to set an example in what it means to resolve conflicts and love those who are different.

    Really, I’m talking about psychology insofar as it actually involves experiencing life, empirically, with other people as opposed to interpreting scribsher in a vacuum. To my mind, that’s part and parcel of “making every effort” to add love and brotherly kindness to our faith. (Why shouldn’t “EVERY” mean just that?)

    Point 4 of 3: We haven’t a pink clue what forgiveness means

    But I have to go out now (I’m already late, if anything) so I’ll pick this one up later.

  27. He has told you, O mortal, what is good;
    and what does the Lord require of you
    but to do justice, and to love kindness,
    and to walk humbly with your God? Micah 6:8

  28. Eagle wrote:

    How is Godly defined?

    That is a question I have been asking recently, also. I hear it often at funerals. When I hear it then I think the preacher means, “He agreed with me and didn’t rock the boat.”

  29. Kindakrunchy wrote:

    Not that strong stances are necessarily wrong, but some of the “strong stances” I took when I was in my early 20’s seem pretty silly now that I’m middle aged.

    Like the true story in the book: Red China Blues: My Long March from Mao to Now by Chinese-Canadian journalist Jan Wong. “Wong describes how the youthful passion for left-wing and socialist politics drew her to participate in the Chinese Cultural Revolution. However, her idealism did not survive the harsh realities and hypocrisy she saw in the China of the 1970s, and she abandoned her support of Maoism.” wikipedia

  30. Lydia wrote:

    But what I found even more chilling is the suggestion that an SGM affiliated and trained pastor could explain it all to Eagle. It might be worth the lunch just to hear that twisted explanation. But it would also make you a huge target. I would not even tell these men where you work or live.

    Kill the messenger rather than honestly deal with the message.

  31. Eagle wrote:

    I examined and looked into the personality cult of John Piper and Chairman Mao.

    This is brilliant – looked at the blog post.

  32. OMGosh. This post was a blast from the past. I was teaching at a Christian high school and I believe it was through this connection that I received a copy of DWYL. On the back cover was the story of Bob and Penny…it hit me so profoundly that I shared it with my best friend (who was a colleague) and I remember we were both overcome with shame and judgment for this couple…and we determined not to waste our lives like they had!!

    This post, Dee and Eagle, was like great therapy for me. I recognize that my descent from the god I used to know and trust began with this tale of sea shell collecting, which was the hook that sucked me into Piper’s neo-Cal movement. In retrospect, I realize this sea shell tale for me was like eating from the tree of knowledge…suddenly being able to judge the motives of others. What a rotten fruit.

    Thanks for the reality check!!

  33. Eagle is cool. I love his writing. Perhaps some local news outlets in the Fairfax area need to be filled in with Cru and GMU and SGM. Is the Fairfax SGM really still operating? After all I’ve read, that would be hard to believe. Or did they blend into Fairfax Community Church?

  34. @ Mara:

    You aren’t moved by the joy vampire sucking the blood of awe, wonder, and all other good things out of our lives while replacing it with the toxins of guilt, condemnation, and shame?

    That is perfect on multiple levels. 🙂

  35. Gram3 wrote:

    The story about CRU truly makes me sad. I have CCC connections from a long time ago, and I cannot imagine any of the people I knew then being involved with the Sovereign Grace mess, much less recommending that students attend a Sovereign Grace church. They were very concerned about *all* the cults springing up on Christian campuses in the sixties and seventies, which included the various shepherding and lunatic-fringe charismatics. It used to be that CCC focused on exposition of the Bible, and the only celebrities were Bill and Vonette Bright.

    I’m guessing I was on campus later than you. By the time I was in college (late 80s) CCC/Cru was pretty much known as the place for the beautiful (Christian) people. While it may have varied a bit from campus to campus, I think that was the overall trend. CCC attracted the more popular types, InterVarsity attracted the more cerebral types.

  36. And I never finished my thought… (Need more coffee)

    It doesn’t surprise me that Cru would tend down the path toward the popular groups (9 Marks, etc.) based on what I’ve observed over the years. Cru is also heavily complementarian whereas IVCF is egalitarian. Cru is going to push people to those kinds of churches with the “right” and popular speakers.

  37. Okay, I am old.
    Explain to me CRU vs CCC.
    All I remember from college is BSU, Newman Club, Wesley Club, Canterbury Club…..

  38. What is CRU? To the uninitiated it’s just a 3 letter acronym that hasn’t been defined in this article or the support articles linked here.

  39. pk47tech wrote:

    What is CRU? To the uninitiated it’s just a 3 letter acronym that hasn’t been defined in this article or the support articles linked here.

    The new name for “Campus Crusade for Christ.” I heard (anecdotally) the word “Crusade” was removed for middle-east ministry purposes

  40. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Excellent. All of it.

    Side thought on 1 of 3: An idol is a narrow thing, thus inevitably much of the world falls outside its purview. Long-time idol worship will shrink the world to its dimensions. Eventually, when confronted with the largeness and variety of the actual world, worshippers will feel deeply threatened because it is packed with unknowns and the immense variety feels like chaos.

    Aggressive protectionism to be expected, along with insulting language, judgmentalism, and then retreat.

  41. 1. One must strike through a lot of Proverbs to say that a Christian can’t enjoy the fruits of labor.

    2. CRU is Campus Crusade’s seeker sensitive rebrand.

    3. B.M.? Heheh. I’ll say.

    4. I met a significant number of practicing Christians for the first time at my university that is known for being conservative. My impressions of Christians before then was WASPs who didn’t give a flip about biblical commandments, but could prove they were a good kid by their church affiliation. But yes, these Christians from my college were nice! It was not something I was used to from people who didn’t share my ideals and lifestyle. And genuinely kind and respectful, and not in a “now you have to go to church with me or we can’t be friends” way. Years later, I became one myself! Pray that BM shows more of Christ’s fragrance to his nonbelieving classmates than he did to Eagle, as Christian students did for me way back when.

    5. Who teaches every 9Marxist to open with “you don’t understand what’s going on?”

  42. Paul admonished with tears. Even when we take a stand for Christ, we should have a tender heart. The heart shall show our spirit.

  43. Wow. Last time I was on Sanibel, there were several churches on the island, and I attended Sanibel Community Church several times, and loved it. Some Baptist neighbors attended the Baptist church, and came running out when it proved not to mirror their hometown First Baptist experience, which led me to believe it was anywhere from minimally charismatic to majorly snake-handling.

    Sooooo, I guess all the Sanibel Christians should sell all their seashells down by the seashore and move up to Piper’s tundra? Perhaps Piper doesn’t realize that many people become Christians in their old age — Sanibel/Captiva and hundreds of other retirement destinations are fields ripe for harvest. Considering the considerable wealth of the average Sanibel resident, I’m surprised SGM didn’t plant down there!

  44. I was amazed reading this post. Feeling snookered! We moved several years ago and attended a new church for a while (didn’t stay, lots of reasons) but they had a guest speaker one Sunday who used the shell story, but he acted like it was his story and he knew all the people involved. And we had just become grandparents and I remember feeling sorry for the ladies’ who perished families, thinking their grandchildren would never have known them, they went off to Africa and then died like that, while the couple collecting shells probably enjoyed family visits. I guess I was in new Nana mode! Anyway, I am facing serious surgery next week (endometrial cancer) and a possible bowel resection as well. I love to do all sorts of needlework, so I spent the week sewing and knitting Christmas gifts for the family, did I waste my time? The shell story would have you thinking so.

  45. pk47tech wrote:

    What is CRU? To the uninitiated it’s just a 3 letter acronym that hasn’t been defined in this article or the support articles linked here.

    Useful reference: “Three-Letter Acronym” (or three-letter abbreviation) = TLA.

    IHTIH.

  46. Dee,

    May I suggest some reading for your little vacation? The setting for the book only a few miles north of where you are. This description is from Wikipedia.

    Ruth

    Gift from the Sea is a book by Anne Morrow Lindbergh first published in 1955.

    While on vacation on Florida’s Captiva Island in the early 1950s, Lindbergh wrote this essay-style work taking shells on the beach for inspiration, and reflecting on the lives of Americans, particularly American women, in the mid-twentieth century. She shares her meditations on youth and age; love and marriage; peace, solitude and contentment during her visit.

    Sometimes classified as inspirational literature, the book presages many of the themes in that genre of popular literature: simplicity, solitude and caring for the soul. Gift from the Sea has sold over 3 million copies and has been translated into 45 languages.

  47. At the risk of duplicating what someone else has already written above (I have not read through all the comments), it seems to me that we are all missing the point of why Piper said what he did.

    In my opinion, Piper said that Bob and Penny were wasting their lives, not because they collected seashells by the seashore, but because (follow me closely here): Penny wasted her life by working full time, and possibly having authority over a man at her job. She missed God’s glorious complimentarian design and therefore is doomed to a life reduced to whiling away her time collecting shells, riding in a yacht, and enjoying her new friends in the beautiful Florida sunshine. God have mercy on her soul.

  48. Burwell Stark wrote:

    ut because (follow me closely here): Penny wasted her life by working full time, and possibly having authority over a man at her job. She missed God’s glorious complimentarian design and therefore is doomed to a life reduced to whiling away her time collecting shells, riding in a yacht, and enjoying her new friends in the beautiful Florida sunshine.

    Awesome comment! I did not even think about this angle.

  49. O.K. I have to stop laughing at the last comment so I can post. I’m also a little tired from all this excitement about the Pope in D.C.

    I’ll play a little bit of a devil’s advocate and thinking about the leader of CRU at George Mason getting an email from someone he doesn’t know – and someone who has done a lot of research, is very prepared and admits to already writing a blog post on CRU. I might be a little defensive as well, although that’s no excuse for not being gracious. (Maybe he should’ve written a first draft of an email and then write a second one that he sent.) That said, it sounds like a good idea to meet in person.

  50. Hi all

    Dee is sitting in Florida, enjoying the sun, planning to collect some sea shells and realizing just how screwed up and arrogant some of these supposed leaders sound to me.Never forget that Piper supported Driscoll and Mahaney. This is the best indication of his judgment of others.

    Unless I hear from George Mason CRU about this wretched response, then I will continue to say that I do not support their ministry as it currently stands. I would never put my kid into a group with BM.

  51. Eagle wrote:

    I have discussed this issue about Sovereign Grace with several godly men inside and outside the church and they’ve assured me that years ago all was dealt with in a very biblical manner, that nothing was covered up but brought into the light for healing purposes.
    Therefore, I don’t see a need to meet up and talk in person, but Pastor Vince Hinders from Sovereign Grace told me he’d be happy to meet with anyone concerning these issues. Would you like his contact info?
    Thanks (real name)! God bless.
    Brett

    Blergh. I don’t think it was handled correctly, not in the least, when you have a criminal case (with a conviction) regarding issues that took place a couple of decades ago, and a pastor admitting on the stand that he hadn’t reported the crimes. Sorry to say this, but the deception is strong with these people.

  52. Brian wrote:

    The Cru guy asks the church that is accused of abuse if it is guilty of said abuse. And then takes their word for it.

    And probably kissed their feet for answering him. This shows poor judgment regarding celebrity ministries/leaders. I would never recommend this group to anyone unless they are willing to apologize for this despicable response.

  53. @ Sallie Borrink:
    I was connected back in the 60’s and 70’s. Though it was not for the beautiful back then, I can easily see how it could become that. And honestly, there were differences among the staff, too. At the time, CCC was very soft complementarian, but I can also see that would change along with the changing culture of conservative evangelicalism and the adoption of celebrities like Piper and Grudem. Obviously, I no longer fit in with CCC or the SBC because of the slide toward the worship of men. I’m too conservative for them!

    I do have a funny story from Arrowhead Springs, but that would out me. I had an encounter with a young man like Tony Miano or Paul Washer who made some very mistaken assumptions and acted “prophetically” on his mistaken assumptions. Loudly. 🙂

  54. Nancy2 wrote:

    How a leaders send our young people into places like SGMs with a clear conscious???

    They don’t believe the victims. They prefer a bald guy jumping around on stage talking about sports and cracking jokes and totally ignoring the pain. His treatises on both *the cross™” and humility™ are pablum.

  55. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Once we’ve put our opinions in the mouth of infallible scribsher, the conflict is cemented in place: it would actually be wrong for us to back down or concede any ground. Prolonging a conflict is a small price to pay to “defend the truth”.

    Very, very true. Too many believe in the inerrancy of an interpretation. Been there done that, and am still no doubt doing that.

  56. Gram3 wrote:

    To me, it just made the men who said it seem unconcerned about serious matters,

    Kids harmed? Piffle-we’ve got conferences to plan and money to make.

  57. @ K.D.:
    I probably introduced the confusion, so I apologize. Back when, CRU was named Campus Crusade for Christ. I still think of the organization that way because CRU seems so foreign and a little too cute for my taste. However, I do understand the need to remove unnecessary offense as well. I frequently have to search due to things or people mentioned here, so you are not alone. 🙂

  58. danlinrm wrote:

    Eagle wrote:

    How is Godly defined?

    That is a question I have been asking recently, also. I hear it often at funerals. When I hear it then I think the preacher means, “He agreed with me and didn’t rock the boat.”

    I, too, have been asking this question a lot lately. What defines a godly person? IMO when a person is referred to as such, it most of the time comes across as that person being esteemed and considered great and worthy.. It appears within my circle one is considered “godly” if he/she speaks the proper Christian lingo. Heaven forbid someone who is outwardly struggling with sin issues to ever be considered godly..no, I’m convinced you can only be called a godly person if you have it all together…or the appearance of such. Well, that rules me out. And probably why in my family and circle, I’m never asked to pray over meals or any such thing. I’m just not godly enough.. :/

  59. XianJaneway wrote:

    The new name for “Campus Crusade for Christ.” I heard (anecdotally) the word “Crusade” was removed for middle-east ministry purposes

    And then the people they find in the Middle East learn that Cru stands for Crusade. Should have gone with a total remake of the name. Just My Personal Opinion.

  60. mirele wrote:

    And then the people they find in the Middle East learn that Cru stands for Crusade. Should have gone with a total remake of the name. Just My Personal Opinion.

    I agree, and that was my first thought when I heard about the change several years ago.

  61. I felt ashamed at a church we attended briefly because I could no longer work in the church like I had done in years past. But then I realized that God didn’t really require that of me in this time of my life. I am disabled, but I always share kindness wherever I go, or try to. If you want to collect seashells in Florida, then so be it. If you like me, love the mountains and it refreshes your soul, then go for it. Who am I or anyone else to tell you that it is wrong and sinful. The time of refreshing is something we all need. Who knows but Bob and Penny ministered to a lot of people while out collecting shells.

  62. Patrice wrote:

    Aggressive protectionism to be expected, along with insulting language, judgmentalism, and then retreat.

    I think we’ve all seen this idolatry thing preached over and over again in fundagelicalism. We all know the drill. Even though the concept and context, and to whom it was written in Scripture explicitly, cites graven images and all the evils tied to said idols, it is still extrapolated out of the way back then into the here and now to include Jeff’s golf game and Barry’s stamp collection.
    As you yourself are so fond of writing Patrice —- blech & pftt

  63. Maybe Brett will consider these things over time and come to a different conclusion. He may have been taken aback by Eagle’s message. But he should have responded with kindness. You know, like Jesus did.

  64. Muff Potter wrote:

    I think we’ve all seen this idolatry thing preached over and over again in fundagelicalism. We all know the drill. Even though the concept and context, and to whom it was written in Scripture explicitly, cites graven images and all the evils tied to said idols, it is still extrapolated out of the way back then into the here and now to include Jeff’s golf game and Barry’s stamp collection.

    But they seriously overlook that they are teaching idolatry — accept and believe every thing the preacher says and approve everything he does and wants to do. The MOG can do no wrong b/c he is a saint lacking only sufficient praise and worship by the hoi polloi.

    MOG = man-O-gaawwwd

  65. But if we open the Christianese to English dictionary & turn to k, under ‘kindness’ we read: ‘to get someone in line with true theology & its working out through our church structures’. If we turn to l, for ‘love’ we read: ‘to aggressively get someone in line with true theology & its working out through our church structures’. Let’s try g, for ‘gentleness’, oh look: ‘the force required to get someone in line with true theology & its working out through our church structures’. Hmmmmm, so Eagle has been gently & kindly loved…. Hang on, let’s look up capital G, for ‘God’: ‘true theology & our church structures’. The translation is complete.

  66. Gram3 wrote:

    @ K.D.:
    I probably introduced the confusion, so I apologize. Back when, CRU was named Campus Crusade for Christ. I still think of the organization that way because CRU seems so foreign and a little too cute for my taste. However, I do understand the need to remove unnecessary offense as well. I frequently have to search due to things or people mentioned here, so you are not alone.

    I can’t keep up, I blame myself.
    It was several years before I discovered the old BSU had changed their name to BSM….like I ever went to the BSU at my university. ( And that’s another story…)

  67. UPDATE TO POST:

    I have added a post we wrote over four years ago – Confessions of an SGM Pastor – at the bottom of this post.

    Eagle, who has been following our blog for a long time, remembers the confession of Mark Mullery, senior pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Fairfax. The church website indicates that Mullery continues to pastor at SGC Fairfax.

    Here is how Mullery’s confession begins…

    “We are in a time when Sovereign Grace Ministries and Sovereign Grace Church here in Fairfax are being critiqued for the way pastors have led. As I mentioned earlier, there are several blogs that have focused on these issues. Two stories in particular have appeared on those blogs that address situations in this church and address our pastors in particular. What follows is a confession in response to these stories entitled Noel’s Story and Wallace’s Story.

    Romans 12:15, the second half simply says: “Weep with those who weep.” This is a good place to start when it comes to the topic of sexual abuse and the sexual abuse of children. By now many of you have become aware of two stories on Sovereign Grace Ministries Survivor blog and the Refuge blog as well I believe — one called Noel’s Story, the other Wallace’s Story. Both of these individuals were at one time members of our church, and both have sad stories to tell.

    Noel, a pen name, recounts the tragic story of the sexual assault of her young daughter, which occurred in 1998. Wallace, also a pen name, tells of having two children molested – the incidents coming to light in 1998 and 2007. In each of these cases the perpetrators were young men whose families were also part of our church.

    These incidents are still exceedingly painful for these families and understandably so. No parent, no compassionate person can learn of these sins without experiencing sorrow, grief, and heartache over the violation of these innocent children.

    But as sad as this is, it gets worse. When these incidents came to light, these families were in trouble. These were children who were victims who had been horribly sinned against. “Blessed are the merciful,” Jesus says, and moments like this require extraordinary amounts of tender care, of merciful comfort. This is a time to bind up the brokenhearted and to weep with those who weep.

    And that’s just what your pastors did, right? Well, with deep regret I confess, we didn’t…

    Please take the time to read Mark Mullery’s confession at the bottom of this post.

  68. An Attorney wrote:

    But they seriously overlook that they are teaching idolatry — accept and believe every thing the preacher says and approve everything he does and wants to do. The MOG can do no wrong b/c he is a saint lacking only sufficient praise and worship by the hoi polloi.

    Invoking Godwin’s Law, it’s like Naziism in a way. (Itself a cult, with its own idolatry of Fuehrerprinzip.)

    As long as you don’t actually hoist the Hakenkreuz or salute from the shoulder or use any of the buzzwords or do any of the external trappings, you can be as neo-Nazi as you want in your attitudes but you can prove to yourself that you’re NOT one of Them. (Those Germans over there are…)

    I encountered this phenomenon with some weirder types in college and the cult that formed around Ross Perot’s 1992 presidential bid.

    “Next time they won’t come in brown shirts or boots,
    They’ll come speaking softly in three-piece suits…”
    — Donna Barr, “Desert Peach, the Musical”

  69. dee wrote:

    Kids harmed? Piffle-we’ve got conferences to plan and money to make.

    And Theology to Perfectly-Parse to Prove We’re The Elect.

  70. Nice Is Not the Point, Marilyn Chandler McEntyre, Christianity Today, 11/13/2000 Vol. 44, Issue 13, p104
    Dee, I can send you a pdf if you would like. Just let me know.

  71. mirele wrote:

    And then the people they find in the Middle East learn that Cru stands for Crusade.

    Woops.

    Should have gone with a total remake of the name.

    Like ChEKA to OGPU to NKVD to KGB to FSB?
    Russian Bureaucratic tradition puts a LOT of value of just-a-name-change when your rep gets too bad.

  72. I love Mirele’s logic. She has a big brain.

    I thought the same thing.

    Why emphasize “Crusade.” Let’s just stipulate right here and now that in 1950, Crusade would not have been seen in the U.S. as a negative word.

    But let’s also stipulate that in 2015, with the way the world has changed, “crusade” is not the word one would want to use to describe a Christian ministry.

    I feel the same way about the word “blitz.”

    We do not use Nazi words to describe Christian ministry.

    Campus Crusade could have done better.

  73. Eagle:

    I was proud of your offer to meet the Cru leader and buy his lunch, especially after he chastised you for not doing that in the first instance.

    I am disappointed in the Cru leader for not taking you up on it, especially since he sort of offered in his initial response to you.

    I suspect that the leader of SGM Fairfax is a nice guy, evangelical, makes a good appearance etc.

    It’s disappointing that the George Mason CRU leader would not know enough to understand the issues, or at least take the time to learn and understand. If he had a cogent response other than “I believe what that guy told me”, he would have offered it.

  74. Muff Potter wrote:

    We all know the drill. Even though the concept and context, and to whom it was written in Scripture explicitly, cites graven images and all the evils tied to said idols, it is still extrapolated out of the way back then into the here and now….
    As you yourself are so fond of writing Patrice —- blech & pftt

    🙂 It’s a sophisticated Devil who turns a book intended to help humans find God into God Himself.

    101 Ways to By-pass Reality and Settle for its Shadows.

  75. An Attorney wrote:

    The MOG can do no wrong b/c he is a saint lacking only sufficient praise and worship by the hoi polloi.

    MOG = man-O-gaawwwd

    Like the god they worship, the MOG require constant praise and glory in order to feel ok about themselves.

    If they don’t get it, tornadoes may occur. Even when they get it, tornadoes may occur for the betterment of all, but they’re worse when they aren’t given glory.

    0_o

  76. @ Anonymous:

    I was VERY disappointed when C.J. Mahaney came and spoke at my younger daughter's CRU meeting at N.C. State University in February 2013.

    Four years earlier Mark Driscoll spoke at my older daughter's CRU meeting at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

    Glad both my daughters have graduated and can now choose by whom they wish to be influenced spiritually.

  77.   __

    “‘Whoz’ On ‘First’?”

    hmmm…

      “‘Certain’ 501(c)3 pastors today are spending millions, of —>YOU Kind Folks —>YOUR hard earned dollars to ‘persuade’ YOU to embrace ‘Their’ tragic ‘T.U.L.I.P. 501(c)3 Calvinesta religious dream’ (c), Ahem! ‘Nightmare’. And I get ‘maby’ 40 seconds to plead with You: Don’t Buy It!” -Sopwith

    -snicker-

    —>”After T.U.L.I.P. baby, we’re gonna let is all this ‘Horse Hockey’ ™ getz out…” 

    Tilt. Game Over.

    (grin) 🙂

    hahahahahaha 

    ‘Believe It!’

    These faux abrasive ‘pastorial’ types can ‘misuse’ their Veinous Maximus, their profusely abusively bad religion, and ‘Our’ ‘Sensibilities’ (r) on their own ‘dang’ time, huh?

    What?

    “After T.U.L.I.P. baby, we’re gonna let is all this B.S. getz out !” ™ (Sung to Eric Clapton’s tune, the 1977 version of ‘After Midnight’)

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeDtmbt4JS4

    “The ‘fervent effectual prayer’ (c) of a righteous woman, or man availeth mucho.” 

    —> “We Serve A Risen Savior!” ™

    Halleluia, The King Is ‘Here’ !
    (given for ALL Men…)

    —>Third Day:  “Joy To The World”
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-8wIaNlK7Dw

    For “Today”, the Holy Son of God sits upon His Throne, ‘waiting’ for His Father to make His ‘enemies’, a footstool for His feet!

    YeHaaaaaaaa!

    “Better believe it, Baby!”

    We decided to go to the beach, and it was recommended that we check out Sanibel Island (just a few miles south of Punta Gorda), “the seashell capital of the world.”  

    We traveled just a short distance to the church down the road and saw the scores of people walking in with buckets of  Hallelujah Praise Jesus’ , and boat loads of smiles!

    Cue da fog machines, N’ da ‘Awesome Gospel’ ™

    ATB

    Sopy

    ;~)

  78. This is a huge problem in the evangelical world. Perhaps the number one problem. It’s probably 80% of the reason we ‘nones’ exist. It’s probably 80% of the reason the church is turning off most people under age 30. It’s a staple of the culture warriors. It’s the reason evangelicals can’t really talk to the LGBTQ community with credibility. I often wonder what would have happened if 30 years ago at the start of the culture wars, moral majority, and HIV scare/anti-gay push, most Evangelicals had chosen to go a different direction: had gotten off the moral high horse and loved and welcomed their neighbors whoever and wherever they were without condemnation or condition. I think we’d be living in a very different and better milieu today.

    And I bet you dollars to doughnuts a most of the Piper fanboys wouldn’t turn down a free week at someone’s beach house if it was offered.

  79. heh, all of this discussion is writing fodder for the next Netflix series of “Bloodline” – set in the Florida Keys. You couldn’t dream it up. Adding John “shells” Piper into the mix will keep the horror ratings high.

    *I get to see my old neighbour this weekend, who when she was in a crisis of searching for direction in her life was lent John Piper books. By me. I’m still cringing. But I will have the opportunity to apologise and explain that (after she gave them back to me) they were tossed into the “very large cylindrical filing receptacle” – and hopefully now happily part of landfill and improving the soil in some small way…

  80. @ Gram3:
    Unfortunately, i find it all too plausible. The church in question seems to pretty much “own” a large segment of Fairfax County’s whie, middle class residents. I’m nt joking; a lot of people that i knew at one time are (or were) involed there. It drew people from other, smaller churches like a mega-huge magnet draw metal objects.

  81. @ Eagle:

    Eagle, honestly – maybe you're looking in the wrong subsection of xtianity. I know you don't care formliturgy, but you might well find a good spot in a liturgical congregation. Am not recommending specific denoms here, as I'm not sure that's of much use. But a congregation that you like is another thing altogether. Most do have Sunday school, which is where the expository part that you like can usually be found, albeit class members are the ones expositing.

    You might be surprised with what you find (ed.), in a good way.

  82. Deb,

    You R ma Hero!

    “Eye has not sèen nor èar heard what Jesus has in store those who love Him!”

    Garrenteed! By HIS Very Word!

    ALL da Very Best! 🙂

    Sopy

  83. @ mirele:
    Maybe it’s better that their motives are reflected in their current name, though i do agree about the terrible associations evoked by the word “crusade” (generally speaking).

  84. Eagle wrote:

    I have discussed this issue about Sovereign Grace with several godly men

    They must teach this line somewhere because it’s the exact excuse a very conservative family member of mine used to justify having manipulated my elderly mother into willing an inordinately large chunk of her estate to them, just months before mom was officially diagnosed with dementia and declared legally incapable of handling her affairs.

    For quite a long time now, when anyone tries to justify something by claiming they consulted “Godly men,” huge red flags go up in my mind.

  85.   __

    “The next time they won’t come in brown shirts or boots,
    they’ll come speaking softly in two-piece suits, with no tie, pushing ‘T.U.L.I.P.’ ™ ” -Sopwith

  86. numo wrote:

    @ mirele:
    Maybe it’s better that their motives are reflected in their current name, though i do agree about the terrible associations evoked by the word “crusade” (generally speaking).

    Most likely the students were already calling it “Cru” so the organization officially adopted it rather than change the name to something completely different. “Campus Crusade for Christ” sounds very outdated, whereas “Cru” has a hipper vibe to it. That the word “crusade” has negative connotations is true. But it also is linked to events like the Billy Graham crusades – although, with the direction Franklin Graham is taking, there are negative connotations there too, IMHO.

  87. Sopwith wrote:

    __

    “The next time they won’t come in brown shirts or boots,
    they’ll come speaking softly in two-piece suits, with no tie, pushing ‘T.U.L.I.P.’ ™ ” -Sopwith
    “…But you’ll always have Nazis among you.”
    — next (and last) line of the aria

  88. Sopwith wrote:

    __

    “The next time they won’t come in brown shirts or boots,
    they’ll come speaking softly in two-piece suits, with no tie, pushing ‘T.U.L.I.P.’ ™ ” -Sopwith

    “…But you’ll always have Nazis among you.”
    — next (and last) line of the aria

    (Got the blockquote in the right place this time)

  89. John wrote:

    For quite a long time now, when anyone tries to justify something by claiming they consulted “Godly men,” huge red flags go up in my mind.

    I think this one Rabbi from Nazareth would agree.

  90. Eagle wrote:

    The Cru leader doesn’t want to know the facts.
    The Cru leader doesn’t want to meet or hear another side of the story.
    The Cru leader is going to listen to the leadership of SG Fairfax and take their advice. No critical thinking, no discernment, the Cru chapter at GMU needs Bereans.
    This was deeply disappointing for me.

    But I’ll bet it wasn’t surprising. Young, ambitious men in idolatry can be quite hateful, you know.

  91. Hello Dee,

    I was amused by the anecdote you passed on about John Piper lamenting this couple’s early retirement to Florida and their possible activities there. What is very often overlooked with regard to the statements of preachers who teach what is referred to as “God’s Exhaustive, Meticulous Providence” (and Piper is more or less the Head Cheerleader for this group) is that they believe that our lives have been scripted by God down, literally, to the nth degree and that we cannot, in any degree whatsoever, vary in thought, word, or deed from what God, in eternity past, has decreed and rendered certain concerning our thoughts, words and deeds. This being said, it would be much, MUCH more doctrinally correct (in their scheme of thinking) for Piper and his crew to (hedonistically) rejoice with exceeding great joy that this couple is doing exactly and precisely what God has decreed and rendered certain in their lives! I think it would be very helpful if those of us who are not sucked in by the error of exhaustive, meticulous providence would call attention to each and every time the adherents of this doctrine lament any situation that they see and remark about as negative. Because, in doing so, from THEIR OWN PERSPECTIVE, they impugn the very decrees of God they seek so vociferously to uphold. No amount of Calvinist verbiage, the weight of which the earth is barely able to support, can camouflage this elephant that is SQUARELY in the middle of their living room.

  92. @ Jenny:
    Heehee – good one, and one i don’t recall, though I’m sure I’ve seen it.

    I was thinking of the huge magnets that are used in scientific research and MRI machines, but your cartoon is even better. 🙂

  93. Through a glass darkly wrote:

    Most likely the students were already calling it “Cru”

    Students of the philosophy of science will be reminded of the famous Grue Paradox. Perhaps CCC/CRU is the CRU Paradox.

  94. __

    “Where There’s Smoke…”

    hmmm…

    Deb, 

      These SGC’ers at the Fairfax location are still enabling da wolves?

    Ok, Pass out da sheep masks.

    Yeah, We Getz It.

     Deb, Mark Mullery will probably ‘still’ want to ‘share observations’. ™ …

    Skreeeeeeeeeeeetch !

    Do their ‘abuse’ victims really have a ‘real’ voice…

    huh?

    “They (ed. SGC) continue to ignore repeated and clear demands for honesty, openness, and accountability when it comes to sexual and other kinds of abuse, because that doesn’t benefit them. It makes them look bad. So they keep asking for things that survivors of abuse don’t want, and denying the things they do want, because it’s All. About. Them.”

    (sadface)

    Sopy

  95. Alan House wrote:

    Hello Dee,
    I was amused by the anecdote you passed on about John Piper lamenting this couple’s early retirement to Florida and their possible activities there. What is very often overlooked with regard to the statements of preachers who teach what is referred to as “God’s Exhaustive, Meticulous Providence” (and Piper is more or less the Head Cheerleader for this group) is that they believe that our lives have been scripted by God down, literally, to the nth degree and that we cannot, in any degree whatsoever, vary in thought, word, or deed from what God, in eternity past, has decreed and rendered certain concerning our thoughts, words and deeds. This being said, it would be much, MUCH more doctrinally correct (in their scheme of thinking) for Piper and his crew to (hedonistically) rejoice with exceeding great joy that this couple is doing exactly and precisely what God has decreed and rendered certain in their lives! I think it would be very helpful if those of us who are not sucked in by the error of exhaustive, meticulous providence would call attention to each and every time the adherents of this doctrine lament any situation that they see and remark about as negative. Because, in doing so, from THEIR OWN PERSPECTIVE, they impugn the very decrees of God they seek so vociferously to uphold. No amount of Calvinist verbiage, the weight of which the earth is barely able to support, can camouflage this elephant that is SQUARELY in the middle of their living room.

    I’ll tell you what Piper’s snide commentary reminds me of dead on: the snide commentary of Judas Iscariot lamenting the waste of Mary Magdalene with the costly oils. Anyone who says “Don’t waste your life is a liar and a thief and does not come in the name of God, because God never said anything like that. John Piper said it, and cashed in on the book sales.

  96. @ numo:

    I watched too much television in my youth, as evidenced by my frequent Looney Tunes, Laugh-In and Monte Python references. The kids think I’m quaint.

  97. SO CLASSIC SGM!
    Problem? No, you’re the problem!
    You didn’t do this biblically.
    There’s nothing to see here, it’s been dealt with.
    You don’t have all the information.
    Having all the information wouldn’t serve you anyway.
    Would you like to speak with a pastor (privately)?
    We’re right, you’re wrong.
    You filthy rotten sinner!

    And so the cycle continues…

  98. @ Alan House:
    Very well said. When I read Piper and Grudem and the like, I think their god sounds very personality-disordered. I am being totally serious, and I have often wondered why they think that God is so insecure that his glory must be found in what is evil. Their god is an OCPD (distinguished from OCD) control-freak who melts down if we do anything spontaneously. They have a peculiar and extremely limited view of sovereignty and glory, IMO. It’s almost as if they conceive of God as a really great and powerful yet insecure Man rather than the One who is totally other but who also has walked among us as one of us. Honestly, the Piperites strike me just like the Gothardites and the Pearlites and all the others who think they have found the Only True Way without realizing how they are constraining the God of the universe.

  99. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Students of the philosophy of science will be reminded of the famous Grue Paradox. Perhaps CCC/CRU is the CRU Paradox.

    Nick, when you and OldJohnJ speak in your unknown (to me) tongues, I really need an interpreter with an 8th grade vocabulary. 🙂

  100. @ Law Prof:
    Not to mention that if the decree of God has rendered certain that one’s life will be wasted, then it shall surely be wasted regardless of the admonitions of preachers who preach exhaustive, meticulous providence but do not act as if they truly believe it.

  101. Alan House wrote:

    This being said, it would be much, MUCH more doctrinally correct (in their scheme of thinking) for Piper and his crew to (hedonistically) rejoice with exceeding great joy that this couple is doing exactly and precisely what God has decreed and rendered certain in their lives! I

    Thank you!

  102. __

    “Thirty Pieces Of Smack?”

    hmmm…

    Johnny and da Pipettes, “their god ‘sounds’ very personality-disordered” N’ “is so insecure that his glory must be found in what is evil” ?

    What!?!

    Flush, Flush, Fizz, Fizz, Oh! What a relief it is…

    (grin)

    Sopy

  103. Gram3 wrote:

    Nick, when you and OldJohnJ speak in your unknown (to me) tongues, I really need an interpreter with an 8th grade vocabulary.

    Well, Nick wins this round. I don’t know what the famous Grue Paradox is either.

  104. Gram3 wrote:

    When I read Piper and Grudem and the like, I think their god sounds very personality-disordered…Their god is an OCPD (distinguished from OCD) control-freak who melts down if we do anything spontaneously…It’s almost as if they conceive of God as a really great and powerful yet insecure Man…Honestly, the Piperites strike me just like the Gothardites and the Pearlites and all the others who think they have found the Only True Way without realizing how they are constraining the God of the universe.

    Fashioning a God into their own image. Not the real God, mind you, just an omnipotent version of themselves.

  105. Alan House wrote:

    Because, in doing so, from THEIR OWN PERSPECTIVE, they impugn the very decrees of God they seek so vociferously to uphold. No amount of Calvinist verbiage, the weight of which the earth is barely able to support, can camouflage this elephant that is SQUARELY in the middle of their living room.

    I see what you did there. 🙂

    The Piperian God declared in eternity past, even before Satan fell, and in hushed, reverenced tones, that one day, Penny and Bob would retire early and collect sea shells on the beach.

    Penny and Bob are doing exactly what Piperian God wants and when and how Piperian God wants because it could be no other way. How dare Piper question the very God he formed in his own image? That does take some nerve.

  106. @ Alan House:
    Michael and Debi Pearl came up with the One True Way of godly parenting which actually had nothing to do with God whatsoever. They followed the Ezzos who were similarly persuaded that they had discovered the One True Way. More Fear, Obligation, and Guilt masquerading as conservative and evangelical Christianity. I have wondered over the years how many families have been driven apart by these false teachings and how many have been turned away from the Good News by the legalists and authoritarians.

  107. David wrote:

    Michael Spencer, who was a bit more of a Piper fan a decade ago than towards the end of his life, still wrote a critique of Piper’s shells story:

    Now, call me whatever you want, but I’m bothered by something. What’s wrong with collecting shells and playing softball? Not what is wrong compared with these things in excess or when compared to something else, but as they are- simple pleasures in God’s world? The “serious Christian” says it is time wasted; time that could have been spent on real “treasure.” Missions, prayer and evangelism. The “fun” of the real disciple is the wartime life. But is this right?

    http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/58928

  108. Will M wrote:

    Now, call me whatever you want, but I’m bothered by something. What’s wrong with collecting shells and playing softball? Not what is wrong compared with these things in excess or when compared to something else, but as they are- simple pleasures in God’s world?

    Oops hit the wrong button.

    Piper is a modern day Puritan. Puritan’s are suspicious of having fun. Remember, a Puritan is someone who is afraid that someone somewhere might be having fun.

  109. @ Will M:
    Well, if people ARE, in point of fact, ACTUALLY having fun, it can only be the result of a decree in eternity past rendering certain the aforementioned fun!

  110. A parallel to this Piper insistence that people can or should only live their life one way to be pleasing to God reminds me of this other trend of the faith over the last few years.

    Those Christians who write books telling other Christians to “be radical” for God, to be “more than a fan” of Christ’s.

    This usually translates to “be a 24 hour a day, 7 days a week, Stepford-Christian-bot who lives, eats, and sleeps nothing but Bible and Jesus stuff.”

    With some of these guys, you have to sell everything you own, and go live in a hut in Africa to hand leafleats out to the villagers (and dig a few water wells), and drop “Jesus Jukes” on other Christians all the time.

    Even at my most Christian-y, I used to find those types of Christians kind of odd and not fun to be around.

    Some young Christian guy was into this for awhile. He served in Africa, became disillusioned, spiritually burned out, was taken advantage of by his church. He later wrote a book about this (“Runaway Radical”).

    Some other Christian wrote a book called “God of the Mundane” or “God of the Ordinary” who, (IIRC), was critiquing these “be radical for Jesus” teachings.

    Being “radical” for Jesus: The stories that don’t get told
    http://boz.religionnews.com/2015/02/20/radical-jesus-stories-dont-get-told/

    I still sometimes listen or read what some of these preachers say, but now out of curiosity or for entertainment purposes.

    I stopped basing my life decisions on their input. I also don’t buy into their guilt trips so much anymore.

  111. Gram3 wrote:

    They have a peculiar and extremely limited view of sovereignty and glory

    No joke. The two YRR pastors at my ex church were exactly this type. God is sovereign and He has to control everything. And if you do not get in line with the progrom, you are bringing down God’s wrath.
    When my Mom was dying, neither had a clue. There is so little human warmth and sympathy in the whole movement.

  112. Daisy wrote:

    This usually translates to “be a 24 hour a day, 7 days a week, Stepford-Christian-bot who lives, eats, and sleeps nothing but Bible and Jesus stuff.”

    Chicago University has a archaeology museum that I toured one time. One of the displays was a small temple with an idol inside as the focus point. But along the walls were little statues of the worshipers. Because you see, this pagan deity also required 24/7 attendance and adoration. But the people had to support themselves with their farms and livestock so they set little representations of themselves to attend the 24/7 deity. I thought that was quite humorous. But the 24/7 thing has been around for a long time.

  113. Alan House wrote:

    Well, if people ARE, in point of fact, ACTUALLY having fun, it can only be the result of a decree in eternity past rendering certain the aforementioned fun!

    Or, if it was fun, it was sinful, the consequence being the fun-loving perpetrator will suffer eternal damnation.

  114. @ JeffT:
    From the Calvinist standpoint, entering Hell is the result of failing to be elected. Accordingly, if a person is not elect, even having lived a life of complete piety, utterly eschewing all semblance of fun or even the appearance thereof in the slightest degree, he will certainly enter Hell simply owing to his failure to be elected.

  115. Will M wrote:

    There is so little human warmth and sympathy in the whole movement.

    I could tell some stories about that, and those incidents made me wonder how someone could be so cold and uncaring about people, even people very close to them. The only thing I can come up with is that proclaiming the “right” set of doctrines is much easier than loving people in much the same way that “metrics” have taken the place of real productivity in the marketplace. Talking endlessly about “loving people well” is not a substitute for actually loving people more than doctrines, books, and personalities. IMO, doctrinal sets are merely another kind of social signal of virtue which substitutes for real virtue. Secular people and “liberal” Christians have their own virtue signals, but highly-distilled doctrine is the conservative church’s virtue trumpet, I have come to believe.

  116. This is a wonderful and thoughtful post. If all Christians were like the TWW bloggers then I would have no problem calling myself one.
    Unfortunately Piper and the Patriarchs (I think that would be a great band name) find it advantageous to focus on the brutality of the bible. One can’t deny that except for some oases of reason (Ecclesiastes) and compassion (Ruth) the majority of the old testament is soaked in blood. God alternately loves and smites with equal abandon. Laying waste to entire cities (I don’t recall the citizens of Jericho getting the option of forgiveness), smiting with indiscriminate plagues, many rules such as homosexuality and disobedient children that end with the admonition “…shall be put to death.” Even in Matthew 19 Jesus says he didn’t come to change a jot or tittle of the law and for all the talk of forgiveness the entire planet get a psychedelic blow up in Revelation. It’s pretty nihilistic when you think about it. While the focus of Job is Job himself, I can’t help but feel sorry for his original wives and children, the ones blasted to bits in a storm. He gets new ones in the end so I guess it’s ok. Combine that with the writings of Paul and can anyone be surprised women and children are seen as property?
    This is what turns the crank of the 9 Marks, Acts 29 and others of their type. And it’s something that modern day Christianity needs to reconcile. Kindness is an awesome virtue but it’s not a “Christian” one. We all make that choice.

  117. Let me preface this by saying that not all chapters of parachurch organizations are the same. They are quite variable (just as churches within a denomination tend to be). That said:
    I have seen Campus Crusade for Christ (now Cru) teaching people to use “a religious survey” to fool people into listening to their pitch. I know a women who was told by her “Cru” leaders that she should quit college and join Cru staff (on God’s authority). She was one of he wonderful woman who I knew who were damaged by her parachurch organization leaders. (She did NOT quit college – so she had to quit Cru).
    I do not say all Cru organizations are bad. But I am convinced that some of them are.

  118. @ Alan House:
    Ah I used to hear this about all conservative Christians: They were worried that somewhere someone might be having fun. 😀

    I don’t think that is a fair characterization of Calvinism, though.

  119. me wrote:

    don’t think that is a fair characterization of Calvinism, though.

    I thought they could sin all they want and still be “elect” because they remain totally depraved. :o)

  120. Lydia wrote:

    I thought they could sin all they want and still be “elect” because they remain totally depraved. :o)

    Yup. “Once saved, always saved” covers a multitude of sins

  121. @ me:

    I was repeatedly told as a student that the “best thing I could do with my life” is go on staff for CCC… funny, now that I am a Professor they would love for me to endorse, and be a speaker for them, (If I follow their party line!)
    I also saw, on multiple occasions, they used all sorts of tactics, including the use of deceptive tactics, to trick people into hearing the GospelTM… This was back in the early and mid 80’s… they also were cultivating back then the “Celebrity” speaker approach which has now evolved into the Celebrity pastor!

  122. 1. Completely unsurprised that someone who would write an email like that would recommend SGF.
    2. The bullshit second email would be comical if it wasn’t pathetic and evidence of serious dereliction of intelligence. By the way, Charles Manson told me he handled his past mis-deeds in a public and biblical fashion, so I’m off to have lunch with him. Toodles.

  123. I remember the seashell story too….actually felt like such a typical American sinner and wondered how I would every be godly enough …..that story sure gets around!!!

  124. me wrote:

    Let me preface this by saying that not all chapters of parachurch organizations are the same. They are quite variable (just as churches within a denomination tend to be).

    Thank you for that reminder. Over the years, I’ve discovered that organizations are made up of all kinds of people and both the people and the organizations vary over time and place.

  125. @ Alan House:
    Well said! Thank you for making me smile as I look at my pretty sea shell which was ordained before the beginning of time, to be admired by me.

  126. JeffT wrote:

    Or, if it was fun, it was sinful, the consequence being the fun-loving perpetrator will suffer eternal damnation.

    I really would like to know where this view of God entered Christian thought. I mean the idea that God created people to destroy them for his glory. That kind of god does not look at all like Jesus who wept over people who despised and rejected him. Jesus is the exact representation of the Father, so where did such a bizarrely distorted view of God come from?

    I do not understand how humans having the ability to choose or not choose God’s salvation offered through Christ’s sacrifice impinges at all on his sovereignty, and it seems like some kind of category mistake. I’m not a philosopher, but I do not see how maintaining God’s sovereignty necessitates God acting in a particular way or not acting in a particular way. That seems to be hanging a lot on Romans 9, if that is where they are hanging this idea.

  127. @ JeffT:
    I also meant to say that, as a parent, the delight of my children delighted me. I loved giving them good gifts and seeing them enjoy those gifts. Later I delighted to see them mature and be able to make their own good decisions. Why is their god so severe and such a killjoy? Why would it not give God pleasure to see us delight in what he has done and what he has made?

  128. numo wrote:

    Same with many hymns, like Onward, Christian Soldiers. Yikes!!!

    That’s one of my favorite hymns. Some object to the hymn as militaristic, but Paul used similar imagery in Ephesians 6:14-19.

  129. __

    ” I am facing serious surgery next week (endometrial cancer) and a possible bowel resection as well. ”
    -Marie

    You are not alone.

    Prayers & well wishes.

    You Matter.

    (tears)

    Sopy

  130. Will M wrote:

    Piper is a modern day Puritan. Puritan’s are suspicious of having fun. Remember, a Puritan is someone who is afraid that someone somewhere might be having fun.

    I used to teach kids in our Christian homeschool group how to crochet and knit. Some of them really took to handwork and enjoyed making gifts for their family and friends. There was one young teen who was particularly good at crochet. One campus day I asked her how her hobby was going. She responded, “Oh, Mom and I decided that crochet wasn’t profitable for the Lord, so I gave it up.” Just because she had fun and made something beautiful, it wasn’t *profitable*. Ugh.

  131. @ numo:

    Numo I saw this and I wrote about it. I’m not a student at GMU, and not involved in Cru. I saw something that deeply bothered me and I wrote about it. That’s what led to this coming about. I am not a push over, I don’t allow others to push me around. After all I went through I just speak my mind.

  132. @ John:

    I just want to make sure I am following you. Are you talking about the lack of kindness? Or the lack of intellectual engagement and the dearth of critical thinking skills. Or are you talking to both. Forgive me if I sound stupid.

  133. Deb wrote:

    Four years earlier Mark Driscoll spoke at my older daughter’s CRU meeting at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

    That one experience with Mark Driscoll at Cru combined with Dee’s experience at David Horner’s Providence Baptist is what got this shindig going. You and Dee have exposed a lot of corruption and problems in evangelicalism that must be faced for it to become healthy.

  134. Deb wrote:

    Four years earlier Mark Driscoll spoke at my older daughter’s CRU meeting at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

    BTW…didn’t Mark Driscoll speak about **** (ed) sex in NCSU Cru? I wondered if that is “Gospel Centered..”

  135. @ Anonymous:

    Anonymous you’d be amazed as to who I have offered to buy lunch for, and who I have bought lunch for. What type of guy turns down free food? You ever make it to the DC area I’ll buy you lunch! 🙂

  136. @ Deb:

    Correct me if I am wrong…but its my understanding that the stories at SGM Fairfax have not been resolved. From Happymom and Wallace to Noel, and Set Free. I don’t thin they were resolved. wasn’t one of the issues with mark Mullery’s apology is that it was public for PR reasons? And he never invited the families involved or let them know they were going to do that? Dee or Deb can you chime in on this?

  137. Sallie Borrink wrote:

    Cru is also heavily complementarian whereas IVCF is egalitarian

    Sally Cru was not always like this. They adopted complimentarism in the late 90’s (?) I think. For most of Cru’s history they did not have such a policy. I remember being on a Cru leadership retreat in Lacrosse, Wisconsin and they were fielding questions about dating and having girlfriends submit to them in preparation for marriage. That was an eye opener. It didn’t bother me at the time but today it does. I actually check the speakers of TCX to see who speaks

    In the last TCX conference they had Bob Thune who is an Acts 29 pastor speak.

    http://gotcx.com/speakers/

    http://cdomaha.com/about/history/

    That raised eye brows but they did have other speakers which balanced it. TCX in the past has had John Piper speak. If they did that again I’d write the heck out of it at my blog. Advocating and endorsing someone who has taught a woman to submit to her domestic abuser is uncalled for. That bothers me deeply.

  138. @ me:
    It is a proverb that whenever a non-Calvinist puts Calvinist thought in understandable prose Calvinists reply that the writer is not being fair or is portraying Calvinism wrongly.

  139. @ JeffT:
    An old Calvinist was reported to have said that the occupants of hell could take comfort in the fact that their damnation magnified the glory of God.

  140. Lydia wrote:

    I thought they could sin all they want and still be “elect” because they remain totally depraved. :o)

    I see you are having fun with technical theological terms. What many non-Calvinists consider depraved (if you will) is believing that Our Heavenly Father wanted Adam to sin, planned Adam’s sin, decreed that Adam would sin and thereby rendered Adam’s sin utterly certain and then was pleased and glorified by the result. This takes more faith than I have. Not to mention credulity.

  141. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Charles Manson told me he handled his past mis-deeds in a public and biblical fashion,

    You know, I suppose, that it is commonly held that he does not always tell the truth in every circumstance. Right?

  142. Eagle wrote:

    BTW…can someone answer this? What is it with dude bros and beards in Acts 29? Are they trying to look cool or look like a man? Honest question?
    http://cdomaha.com/about/leaders/

    Long beards are now fashionable in part of the young modern culture, no? As is the five day unshaven look? Every generation seems to have its facial hair distinctives.

    On an unrelated note, some 30 years ago when I was a young engineer, the older guys pulled me aside and told me if I ever looked elsewhere for employment, always look for the grey heads. They explained it would be a clue how the potential employer treated older employees. If you saw none, that was a red flag. A healthy company had a mix of all ages and types.

    Groups like this CD Omaha do NOT look healthy.

  143. “Godly” is one of the words purged from my vocabulary, along with many other words that were over-used and redefined by SGM. I now cringe whenever I hear or read them.

    Few deserve to be called ‘godly’ anyway. What we really mean when saying someone is ‘godly’ is that, to our eyes, that person appears to be sincerely attempting to lead a life faithful to Christ. We are often fooled, however. When others told us that leaders were godly, we never expected to later find that they are blackmailers, liars, protectors of predators, users of prostitutes, abusers of parishioners, and on and on, ad nauseum.

  144. __

    Alternate Dystopia: “Locked in Step?”

    hmmm…

    “The power behind the utilization of the forced doctrinal march of  covert TULIP and the sordid world of Mahaney’s SGM/SGC is diabolical.” -Sopwith

    Are we stranded, caught in the crossfire; what happened to the golden rule?

    A ‘church’ walking a religious tight roop, caught up in wrong and failing to do the right?

    You better leave my faith alone,
    You called my new church,
    I picked up the phone,
    Ha!
    I heard every word you said.
    All the demons and all the whIte lies,
    Da walls come tumblin’ down?

    Bout time.

    “What text book on abusing the sheep are all these guys reading from, because they are all acting the same.”

    Enslaving the masses who are then enslaved to mere shadows, mere forms of the truth?

    (sadface)

    Sopy

  145. Marie wrote:

    I love to do all sorts of needlework, so I spent the week sewing and knitting Christmas gifts for the family, did I waste my time? The shell story would have you thinking so.

    John Piper should do a sermon on Mary and Martha, and what Jesus said about wasting time.

    Praying for you surgery, Marie.

  146. And a very good morning from Blighty.

    Firstly: the Grue Paradox.

    As several of you have noted, it is of course not famous at all, but a rather esoteric idea that resides within the minds of a tiny proportion of the academic population. Moreover, it would probably be fair to say that we would benefit from getting out more.

    But basically, “grue” [B***** auto-correct!] is a made-up word from a thought experiment. It means “Green before the year 2100 [or some other future time] and blue thereafter”. The paradox is that any individual piece of evidence supporting the statement “All emeralds are green” ALSO supports the statement “All emeralds are grue” [B***** auto-correct!] – unless and until we reach the year 2100 and fail to see all emeralds turning blue. But even if that happened, we might cling to the same basic idea but decide we got the date wrong.

    For the servants of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, of course, this is no joke: the Watchtower has repeatedly put a date on the end of the world and repeatedly got it wrong, and yet it still has total ownership of the bodies and minds of its adherents. IOW, although the Grue Paradox is a bit of fun in itself, it’s also part of a wider exploration of how evidence should be used, and how it can be misused.

    The Grue Paradox has nothing to do with the CRU Paradox (which isn’t even a Thing really), except that they rhyme.

    IHTIH.

    BIPI.

  147. Thanks, everyone, for your kind thoughts and prayers.

    I was happy to see the link to iMonk’s Wretched Urgency II, I did not know there was a followup. I have the first essay which was so good I printed it up. It covers non-stop witnessing 24/7 which was the mantra of the churches we attended through the 70s and 80s.

  148. Gram3 wrote:

    I mean the idea that God created people to destroy them for his glory.

    This has been a dealbreaker for me as well regarding Calvinism. It’s like God has some inferiority complex and needs to demonstrate his sovereignty and glory by condemning people to eternal hell to show who’s boss. No matter how hard Calvinist’s try, they just aren’t convincing in any way that this squares with a good and loving God. They simply created this excuse to try and justify their own bad theology.

  149. Ken P. wrote:

    That’s one of my favorite hymns. Some object to the hymn as militaristic, but Paul used similar imagery in Ephesians 6:14-19.

    It might help to be viewed as written concerning wiping out slavery— which was not going to happen peacefully but only militarily. Hence the lyrics. It was written by Julia Ward Howe about the judgment of the wicked. There are folks who don’t agree with that, though. And that is ok.

  150. David wrote:

    The “serious Christian” says it is time wasted; time that could have been spent on real “treasure.” Missions, prayer and evangelism. The “fun” of the real disciple is the wartime life. But is this right?

    http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/58928

    This describes what my husband was for 5 or 6 years. Sometimes I was nothing more than a war tool for him to use; sometimes I was just excess baggage. We came within 2 or 3 weeks of getting divorced right before Christmas because of his obsession.
    Makes me wonder about the mental stability of certain other wives.

  151. JeffT wrote:

    It’s like God has some inferiority complex and needs to demonstrate his sovereignty and glory by condemning people to eternal hell to show who’s boss.

    I think that seems to be true of some who write about God’s sovereignty. For others, I believe they think it is the only way to understand his sovereignty. Absolute sovereignty must mean obsessive control, and they do not stop to think about how that might not be the case. I also think that this is driven, in large part, by a misinterpretation of Paul’s rhetoric in Romans 9:22. Paul is removing the ground for any human complaint against God, but he is not saying that is what God has actually done or actually intended for people. IMO most of this POV comes from a wrong interpretation of the argument Paul is making in Romans 9-11. And that is mostly because people do not consider the totality of the arguments that Paul makes but only take out pieces and examine them as if they are the whole of his point.

  152. @ Marie:
    So sorry about your cancer and pending surgery. You sound like a good grandmother who is a blessing to her grandchildren, and surely that is pleasing to God. Crocheting I get. Knitting needles and I get crossways, however, so kudos to you for being able to make something beautiful and useful.

  153. Gram3 wrote:

    I think that seems to be true of some who write about God’s sovereignty. For others, I believe they think it is the only way to understand his sovereignty. Absolute sovereignty must mean obsessive control, and they do not stop to think about how that might not be the case.

    And that thinking is transferred to human relationships and hierarchy.

  154. @ Marie:
    I am going to place your upcoming surgery on the top of our blog so that everyone will remember to pray for you. Please let us know how you are doing after you recuperate.

    And please enjoy your needlework. Some day, in the new heavens and earth, I am convinced that God will use your talent to create beautiful tapestries to adorn His kingdom! In fact, you should think about doing one with shells to remind you that you are one person who is seeing His beauty!

  155. Gram3,

    These men get to hold the keys of defnng God. The others are out of the picture, or outa luck.
    Quite the paradox, huh?
    Are they sure God is amused?

    ATB

    Sopy

  156. @ Eagle:
    I’m not questioning what you did. In your comment (that i was replying to) you basically said that Chrisyianity pretty much equals a certain slice of evangelicslism. I can understand your frustration. My suggestion was meant more to address thst frustration. It was not intend3d as a comment on what you did, which seems more than reasonable to me.

    I was on my phone when i replied and highlighting a sentence is very hard, which is why i did not include it in my reply.

  157. pk47tech wrote:

    A healthy company had a mix of all ages and types.

    Groups like this CD Omaha do NOT look healthy.

    A very good observation

  158. Eagle wrote:

    I just want to make sure I am following you. Are you talking about the lack of kindness? Or the lack of intellectual engagement and the dearth of critical thinking skills. Or are you talking to both. Forgive me if I sound stupid.

    Lack of kindness, but come to think of it, the other factors you mention often do seem to accompany it.

  159. Lydia wrote:

    It was written by Julia Ward Howe about the judgment of the wicked. There are folks who don’t agree with that, though. And that is ok.

    There are folks who STILL don’t agree with wiping out slavery in this country (i.e. a certain Penetrate/Colonize/Conquer/Plant MOG in Idaho).

  160. JeffT wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    I mean the idea that God created people to destroy them for his glory.
    This has been a dealbreaker for me as well regarding Calvinism.

    But not to the Calvinists.

    “There’s just winners and losers
    And don’t get on the wrong side of that line…”
    — Bruce Springsteen, “Atlantic City”

    And the Calvinists KNOW they’re already on the right side of that line, so why should they care?

  161. When I was a pewpeon for Campus Crusade (late Seventies, Cal Poly Pomona) I found that the various chapters could vary quite a bit. At Cal Poly Pomona on weekdays, they were pretty mellow — a lot of them were gamers, and I first learned about “Killer” (AKA “TAG – The Assassination Game”) from them. However, when I was D&Ding at Cal State Fullerton on weekends (at the other end of Brea Canyon), we had to be on constant guard against CSUF’s Campus Crusade, which held to “D&D = WITCHCRAFT!” as a primary article of faith on a level with the Resurrection.

    Also while there, Navigators had a rep for extremism/rigidity/cult-like total commitment and burnouts/flunkouts. And there was one strictly-local group titled “Studies in the WORD of GOD” that out-Navigatored the Navigators. Bad Craziness.

  162. Thank you, Dee, for posting a reminder to pray for me, it is very much appreciated. Hoping to have only the surgery for the endometrial cancer, but due to other factors, it might include a bowel resection also which would mean a longer recovery.
    Gram 3, I can’t crochet worth a hoot! Those patterns look like Greek to me. I learned to knit so young I don’t remember not knowing how to knit. It is something that I have done off and on all my life, at one time it wasn’t as “cool” as some other crafts, but now thanks to Ravelry, there are yarn shops springing up all over the place.

    That story about Grace Brett was so sweet.

  163. Alan House wrote:

    @ JeffT:
    An old Calvinist was reported to have said that the occupants of hell could take comfort in the fact that their damnation magnified the glory of God.

    Spoken by one of The Elect, of course.
    (With a catered box seat for The Abominable Fancy?)

  164. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And the Calvinists KNOW they’re already on the right side of that line, so why should they care?

    Some like the Federal Visionists and true hyper-Calvinists don’t. But I’ve also known Reformed people who truly do care about others and about real evangelism instead of evangelizing for the distinctives of their POV. I don’t see how they get to where they are on sovereignty or eternal decrees or Covenant theology, but they don’t see how I get to where I am, either. Sometimes I question how I got to where I am. 🙂

  165. Jeffrey wrote:

    @ me:
    I was repeatedly told as a student that the “best thing I could do with my life” is go on staff for CCC…

    i.e. Go into Full Time Christian Work(TM) and become the CCC version of a Priest, Monk, or Nun.

  166. me wrote:

    I have seen Campus Crusade for Christ (now Cru) teaching people to use “a religious survey” to fool people into listening to their pitch.

    Like Scientology uses their “free psych evaluations” to get you holding the cans and into the Org?

  167. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And the Calvinists KNOW they’re already on the right side of that line, so why should they care?

    As a “Calvinist” – I prefer Reformed, as Calvin was but one important part of a much broader Reformation movement that began in the 16th Century – I am not too terribly bothered by those who cannot conscientiously accept our Reformed doctrines, many of them are difficult and offensive to modern Christians. I’d much rather see Calvinist detractors worship with free consciences in other churches than try to railroad them into accepting something that they inwardly find appalling.

    But, remember that there are a few of us who are Reformed who are terribly concerned with what is happening among self-described Calvinist circles (many who claim to be Calvinists would have been asked to leave Calvin’s Geneva, or Knox’s Scottland or the Netherlands due to their rejection of basic Reformed doctrines of baptism and the Lord’s Supper as well as other vital Reformed doctrines). I am deeply appreciative of blogs like TWW and others that shine a light on the corruption and abuse that is happening in Calvinist churches, however in all likelihood this is about all non-Calvinistic types can do. The impetus for change in our denominations, conferences, and parachurch organizations must come from Calvinists on the inside or things will never change – and there are several public figures that are beginning to speak out (e.g. Trueman Byrd, et. al.).

    So, as much of a problem some of you have with Calvin’s teachings and those who would appropriate them in their churches, remember corruption and abuse are not respective of confessional or denominational lines. As the Body of Christ, these are all of our concerns. Criticizing Calvinism, while totally understandable especially the so-called New-Calvinists attached to organizations such as the Gospel Coalition, is going to be a non-starter for seeing change in our ranks, but exposing the gross sin in our ranks and praying for us when you can will go a long, long way.

    Just a friendly reminder from the Village Calvinist – I’ll go back to the pillory and let the rotten tomatoes fly.

    On a serious note, keep up the good work TWWers, the service many of you do by shining a light into darkness is a very necessary work.

  168. “Be on your guard against false religious teachers, who come to you dressed up as sheep but are really greedy wolves. You can tell them by their fruit. Do you pick a bunch of grapes from a thorn-bush or figs from a clump of thistles? Every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree is incapable of producing bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. The tree that fails to produce good fruit is cut down and burnt. So you may know men by their fruit” (Matthew 7:15-20 Phillips).

    Pray for spiritual discernment, folks … the enemy is hiding behind every bush.

  169. Jed Paschall wrote:

    The impetus for change in our denominations, conferences, and parachurch organizations must come from Calvinists on the inside or things will never change – and there are several public figures that are beginning to speak out (e.g. Trueman Byrd, et. al.).

    I think that is true of any movement, especially one like YRR that sees any disagreement with them as being disagreement with God himself. Perhaps I’ve just lived long enough to remember that there have been many non-Calvinist movements that have gone off the rails. If I were Reformed I would be dismayed by some people wearing that label. As a conservative evangelical, I’m dismayed by lots of things that wear the conservative and evangelical labels. I also think liberals and secularists should be dismayed about things going on in their sphere which are very wrong but which they excuse. The human fact is that it is difficult to see problems with our friends and allies, and we reflexively defend our friends and resist those we perceive as opposed to us and our friends. Perhaps there are a few in each sphere who are willing to listen to outsiders’ critiques and take them seriously. When that happens, real change can occur.

    FWIW, I think of people like you and others who post here when I talk about the classically Reformed who have not decided to defend everything wearing a “reformed” label.

  170. Jed Paschall wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    And the Calvinists KNOW they’re already on the right side of that line, so why should they care?
    As a “Calvinist” – I prefer Reformed, as Calvin was but one important part of a much broader Reformation movement that began in the 16th Century – I am not too terribly bothered by those who cannot conscientiously accept our Reformed doctrines, many of them are difficult and offensive to modern Christians. I’d much rather see Calvinist detractors worship with free consciences in other churches than try to railroad them into accepting something that they inwardly find appalling.
    But, remember that there are a few of us who are Reformed who are terribly concerned with what is happening among self-described Calvinist circles (many who claim to be Calvinists would have been asked to leave Calvin’s Geneva, or Knox’s Scottland or the Netherlands due to their rejection of basic Reformed doctrines of baptism and the Lord’s Supper as well as other vital Reformed doctrines). I am deeply appreciative of blogs like TWW and others that shine a light on the corruption and abuse that is happening in Calvinist churches, however in all likelihood this is about all non-Calvinistic types can do. The impetus for change in our denominations, conferences, and parachurch organizations must come from Calvinists on the inside or things will never change – and there are several public figures that are beginning to speak out (e.g. Trueman Byrd, et. al.).
    So, as much of a problem some of you have with Calvin’s teachings and those who would appropriate them in their churches, remember corruption and abuse are not respective of confessional or denominational lines. As the Body of Christ, these are all of our concerns. Criticizing Calvinism, while totally understandable especially the so-called New-Calvinists attached to organizations such as the Gospel Coalition, is going to be a non-starter for seeing change in our ranks, but exposing the gross sin in our ranks and praying for us when you can will go a long, long way.
    Just a friendly reminder from the Village Calvinist – I’ll go back to the pillory and let the rotten tomatoes fly.
    On a serious note, keep up the good work TWWers, the service many of you do by shining a light into darkness is a very necessary work.

    Jed, I have been around the block of Calvinism. My late grandfather was an old school Reformed. He literally beat it into my head….but this new group of YRR are spooky. They scare the mess out of me. I wonder how many people will not be witnessed to because this bunch and the missionary spirit is just not there. ( Grandfather believed that missions were to be done, and you were predestined to get out and witness….at all points in your life.)
    Sorry, but this new bunch of Neo-Cals just don’t have the get out there and witness….unless you got money….

  171. @ Jed Paschall:
    The complaint I have with Trueman is his endorsement of Mahaney and SGM. It was shocking to me when that came out. He may have reconsidered that, and if he has I would love to see him make that reconsideration public.

  172. @ Gram3:

    I completely agree, it was no small controversy in our Reformed circles when Trueman did. I cut Trueman some slack here, because as a British ex-pat, evangelicalism in the UK is far different and more collegial than here in the US (maybe some of TWW’s UK readers/commenters could elaborate). Because evangelicals are much more of a minority there, there is a greater degree of ecumenical cooperation among different evangelical groups.

    I can only speculate here, but Trueman’s departure from TGC and his diminished role at Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals/Ref 21 seems to have been percipitated by his souring over the movement as a whole. I think Trueman is at his best as an outsider, but his role at Westminster East I think keeps him from being more candid. I am glad that he has taken on some of the bizarre excesses of complimentarian/patriarchialists in CBMW, but I do wish he would clarify his prior endorsement of Mahaney, which I think was rash and unwise. Problem is, by all indications Mahaney is a narcissist who plays and uses public figures to further his own agenda. Anyone close to him who has called Mahaney out has suffered greatly for doing so – I could see why he might be more inclined to just leave it alone. I hope at some point he revisits it, because Mahaney has become a danger to the broader church.

  173. K.D. wrote:

    Sorry, but this new bunch of Neo-Cals just don’t have the get out there and witness….unless you got money….

    I would say this is partially true, but it is the missional YRR types that actually scare me most. Church-planting missions like Acts29, 9 Marks, CREC and SGM have gone and spread the gospel of “New-Calvinism” all over North America and beyond, replicating their cancerous leadership approach all over the place. But I do agree with you YRR types are truly creepy, and so dangerous because they have no self-awareness of how how spiritually, ans psychologically damaging their approach is.

    As bad as the Driscoll saga was at Mars Hill, what is even worse is how he replicated himself with hundreds of other Mark/William Wallace II’s all over. While Mars Hill thankfully is no longer (and from what I hear some of the new congregations are doing better), but the residual toxicity he spawned is still all over the place. The same could be said of other key leaders in the movement.

    The problem is on top of the narcissism and toxicity that typifies these groups, they are all essentially cafeteria Calvinists. It would be like me claiming to be a Roman Catholic, except I disagree with the Mass and Papal Supremacy. If Reformed Calvinists are to earn a bad name, at least let us do it by ourselves not by those who have co-opted the label and spread their cancer worldwide.

  174. Gram3 wrote:

    Perhaps I’ve just lived long enough to remember that there have been many non-Calvinist movements that have gone off the rails.

    I hear you there, I am starting to get old enough to see this as well. Once upon a time I was a bright-eyed kid attending Moody Bible Institute sure of the fact that God and I were going to change the world. Thankfully God has been faithful to break me of my naive arrogance. But, what I saw in one of evangelicalism’s flagship institutions truly sickened me. To be sure, there were wonderful people at Moody, but the Achilles heel of evangelicalism, and now the YRR movement is how much money and power corrupt these movements.

    I have been connected to a few of the larger Evangelical and now Reformed institutions now for nearly 20 years, but always as somewhat of an outsider (now by choice). There are pockets of health, but also big problem areas. Two of the biggest (shared by many other Christian groups) are abuse (spiritual, sexual, emotional) and corruption – and if we do not deal well with these problems it will greatly harm the church’s credibility more than it already has. As important as doctrine and theology are, and I think they are very important, these cannot be used to either overlook or insulate our churches and leaders from the very real an pressing issues and threats facing us now.

  175. Jed Paschall wrote:

    The problem is on top of the narcissism and toxicity that typifies these groups, they are all essentially cafeteria Calvinists.

    Except for the Founders True Believers of 1689 who have the *right* kind of Covenant Theology, I honestly do not think that the average YRR has any real notion of what Covenant/Reformed theology is. I think they are swept up in Big Ideas like being God-centered rather than man-centered, all while they are exceedingly man-centered! I think they are rebelling rightfully against the seeker-sensitive or entertainment-driven or legalistic evangelicalism of their parents and assuming that being different from something wrong is somehow the same thing as being right. IMHO this is Grudemism and Piperism and Mohlerism much more than it is Calvinism.

    I used to think of Moody a lot differently than I do now because now Moody means Harvest and MacDonald to me, along with some others who have jumped on the MacDonald gravy train. So sickening to see that. I no longer have contact with Moody people, so I don’t know how deep this goes.

    Being a voice of discernment doesn’t win any awards from men, but I truly hope some guys are able to stand up and say “I was wrong and here’s why and let’s not make this mistake again.”

  176. Gram3 wrote:

    he complaint I have with Trueman is his endorsement of Mahaney and SGM. It was shocking to me when that came out. He may have reconsidered that, and if he has I would love to see him make that reconsideration public.

    You beat me to it. I think his words now concerning the problems with that movement should carry very little weight. He was part of exonerating Mahaney and ignoring the mass of victims. Where has he spoken of his part in it?

    Seriously, Trueman had to ignore victims to do what he did.

  177. @ Jed Paschall:

    Jed, I would recommend reading “Quiet Revolution” by Ernest Reisinger concerning the roots of this movement. He was a “Founder” and they were/are quite serious Reformed. It might still be online free if you google it. Pay attention to chapter 4.

  178. Jed Paschall wrote:

    As a “Calvinist”…

    As a “charismatic”…
     I believe apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds (or “pastors”) and teachers are all still present and necessary, since
     I believe that the completion of the canon of scribsher has not ipso facto brought us all into the full measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, and moreover
     I believe God is at liberty to do among us all the things he did amongst the new testament church, and
     God is at liberty to do much more besides, since Jesus did many wonderful things in the presence of his disciples that are not only recorded in John’s gospel account but that would more than fill the world with books if they were written down
     And many other dangerous, satanic deceptions sent to deceive cranks, crackpots and weirdos like me

    … I feel your pain.

    FWIW, I’m always glad to notice your avatar pic when scanning a thread first thing in the morning over here, as it invariably denotes a thought-provoking and informative comment.

  179. Gram3 wrote:

    The human fact is that it is difficult to see problems with our friends and allies, and we reflexively defend our friends and resist those we perceive as opposed to us and our friends.

    We tend to defend/critique a person and not ideas. I think that is how far down the “cult of personality” road we have gone.

  180. @ Ken P.:
    I’m not big on church militant/triumphalist themes. When Paul talked about armor and whatnot, he was speaking of standing fast, not setting out to conquer. If written by Baring Gould, then it is more than likely a result of the imperialistic attitude that characterized Britain (and its attitude toward empire, both physically and spiritually) than an5thing else.

    Somehow i doubt it’s had much play since WWI, in the UK, at leadt. But over here, it’s a different story (unfortunately, imo).

    That’s just me, everyone’s mileage varies on topics like this one. Fwiw, i used to like the words, but i was not very old at the time. It has a stirring tune, quite martisl.

  181. @ Lydia:

    Thanks for the recommendation Lydia, I’ll have to look that up. And I’ll return the favor – currently I am reading Julie Canlis’ work called Calvin’s Ladder which deals with Calvin’s theology of ascent and participation (koinonia), and she compares St. Irenaeus of Lyon’s spiritual theology with Calvin. It’s very fascinating how both had such similar conceptions of how the Christian and the church corporately participate in the Divine Life offered to us in Christ, and how our Ascent to God is predicated on Christ’s descent to us. If you have any interest in spiritual formations or spiritual theology, it is an excellent resource.

    It’s pretty tough sledding for Reformed female scholars, since many seminaries will not hire a women to teach men. I don’t think our requirement for male elders extends past the walls of the church, and there are many capable women who produce fantastic scholarship. We end up loosing them to secular universities and colleges, as opposed to our ministers in training benefiting from their knowledge. Canlis is one of the bright young lights in the Reformed camp.

  182. @ numo:

    Thanks Nick, I always enjoy your comments as well. As for my avatar, it’s a thumbnail of a Ketubot art piece depicting one of my favorite Psalms – 137 by an artist by the name of Norman (don’t know his last name).

    The text is from Psalm 137:4-6 –

    How shall we sing the Lord’s song

    in a foreign land?

    If I forget you, O Jerusalem,

    let my right hand forget its skill!

    Let my tongue stick to the roof of my mouth,

    if I do not remember you,

    if I do not set Jerusalem

    above my highest joy!

    It’s always a reminder to me that I am not home yet, and that my truest joy is not here but in the Heavenly Jerusalem where Christ reigns, and where we will one day reign with him.

    Here’s a link to the hi-res image of the peice: http://www.normansketubot.com/Hbforget01.jpg

  183. Gram3 wrote:

    I used to think of Moody a lot differently than I do now because now Moody means Harvest and MacDonald to me, along with some others who have jumped on the MacDonald gravy train. So sickening to see that. I no longer have contact with Moody people, so I don’t know how deep this goes.

    I had to sit under far too many chapel services with James MacDonald preaching. I never understood the pull – yes he was dynamic, but in person he always came off as so arrogant and self-important. What he has put his church through is criminal.

    I was a member for two years at Moody Church, which has no organizational affiliation with MBI. Erwin Lutzer was (still is) such a wonderful preacher, and once you get through his proper Canadian exterior, a warm and genuinely funny man. I am still close one of the Pastors there. Moody was never a dynamic church like Willow Creek, or Harvest, but to this day it is one of the best churches I have ever been a part of. It’s one of the things I miss most about living in Chicago.

  184. Jed Paschall wrote:

    Thanks for the recommendation Lydia, I’ll have to look that up. And I’ll return the favor – currently I am reading Julie Canlis’ work called Calvin’s Ladder which deals with Calvin’s theology of ascent and participation (koinonia), and she compares St. Irenaeus of Lyon’s spiritual theology with Calvin. It’s very fascinating how both had such similar conceptions of how the Christian and the church corporately participate in the Divine Life offered to us in Christ, and how our Ascent to God is predicated on Christ’s descent to us. If you have any interest in spiritual formations or spiritual theology, it is an excellent resource.

    That sounds very interesting. Does she make any reference to how that played out in the mandatory church in Geneva? I could never understand mandatory church and “election”. :o)

  185. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    pk47tech wrote:

    What is CRU? To the uninitiated it’s just a 3 letter acronym that hasn’t been defined in this article or the support articles linked here.

    Useful reference: “Three-Letter Acronym” (or three-letter abbreviation) = TLA.

    IHTIH.

    Though between the Federal Government and Microsoft, all possible three-letter acronym combinations are pretty much already taken.

  186. Bridget wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    Explain to me CRU vs CCC.
    They are one and the same.

    Just like ChEKA, OGPU, NKVD, and KGB.
    When you get a bad rep, just change the name to shed the baggage.

  187. @ Lydia:

    Not really, no. It is kind of important to remember that Europe in Calvin’s day still operated off of a Constantinian form of church-state relations where the two were vitally linked. If you lived in a Catholic city or nation you were required, upon pain of punishment to attend Mass, if you lived in a Lutheran area you had to regularly attend the Lutheran church, and the same with Reformed churches. So Calvin was very much a product of his time on this matter, and it would have been the city council in Geneva that would enforce such laws not Calvin. In fact Calvin was often at odds with the Genevan city council, so much so that they asked him to leave Geneva for a time before inviting him back. Calvin definitely moved the church in a more spiritual direction, trying to loosen the ties between church and state. But we didn’t really get separation of church and state even being discussed until Calvin’s successor Beza begins to deal with the persecution of the Huguenots in France (French Reformed Christians), and it does not become a matter of political policy until much later after the Enlightenment.

    Calvin was wrong on some of these important matters, but he probably didn’t see it that way, and we can only tell by the distance of history. Can you imagine what church historians will be saying about the church today? If we can see all the problems before us, I am afraid to know what areas our own historical context blinds us to. I try to take it easy on historical figures, since their context is often quite different than mine – which is sometimes hard to do. But it’s very important to maintain a critical eye to catch those blind-spots in our historical leaders. The only person to perfectly lead us is Christ, and it’s so sad to me to see young Calvinists placing Calvin or any other important figure on such high pedestals. Yes some of the Reformers did great things that helped move the church through its most tumultuous time in nearly 500 years, but there was a lot in the Reformation that wasn’t good, and these men were human – if they were still here they would point us to Christ not themselves.

  188. @ Jed Paschall:
    Some good points, Jed, re. historical context, developments regarding politics, and more.

    I get irked when many evangelicals trash the Enlightenment, if only because they have a very one-sided view of it that has been handed down by those who inveighed against “secular humanism” back in the 80s. They ignore all the good things about that time period, including the birth of better means of government (like ours).

  189. Jed Paschall wrote:

    Can you imagine what church historians will be saying about the church today?

    Don’t you think they will mention us dissenters? :o) Just as Reformed history is not complete without mentioning the Radical step children many of whom refused to submit to the state church and were either severely punished or put to death.

  190. David wrote:

    Michael Spencer wrote: The “serious Christian” says it is time wasted; time that could have been spent on real “treasure.” Missions, prayer and evangelism. The “fun” of the real disciple is the wartime life. But is this right?

    Matt 13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.”
    I suppose Piper’s “don’t waste your life” view of “treasure” derives from his Xian hedonism. The latter is described here:
    http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/conversion-to-christ-the-making-of-a-christian-hedonist
    With this highlight:
    “And therefore I say, when a person is converted to Jesus Christ, that person is made into a Christian Hedonist. Unless a man be born again into a Christian Hedonist, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
    And
    “You are converted to Christ when Christ becomes for you a treasure chest of holy joy.”
    How this actually plays out is seen in this from 22 years later.
    http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/the-kingdom-of-heaven-is-a-treasure
    ” What do we learn about the kingdom of God here in Matthew 13:44? We learn one main thing: The kingdom of God is so valuable that losing everything on earth, but getting the kingdom, is a happy trade-off. Having the omnipotent, saving reign of Christ in our lives is so valuable that, if we lose everything, in order to have it, it is a joyful sacrifice.
    And (hard to pick one highlight):
    “The basic funding strategy for paying for these advances of the kingdom is found in Matthew 13:44. We will give sacrificially toward the advance of the kingdom when we Treasure Christ more than we treasure our possessions and our leisure activities—and when we see and love the vision. I know you love the scriptures and love Christ. So I want you to see the vision more clearly. Because our financial secretary told me that a large percentage of our members do not give to Treasuring Christ Together. I don’t think that’s your heart.”
    Personally, I think he has Matthew 13:44 backwards. His interpretation actually smacks of semi-pelagianism or some such nonsense to me. A more doctrines-of-grace interpretation sees Christ himself as “a man” in the parable, the world as “a field” (just as in the sower and tares parables before), and the redeemed (purchased back) of the Lord as the treasure. And God so loved the world that… Which means no need for us to work up a sufficient level of joy as we try to sell off sufficient “assets” to buy Christ. He treasures us!

  191. Ha! You mean those nasty Anabaptists – well of course they got what they deserved. Now I am off to thank God for electing me to be right – I am not saying I’m infallible, but I’m darn close. In fact I am thinking of starting a new parachurch organization or coalition or something.

    I might have thrown up a little in my mouth after reading that…but then again, as a Calvinist, I might not have.

    I don’t think Hobbes was writing about the too distant past when he described life as “nasty, brutish, and short.” I always laugh at the guys who say they wish they could have lived in that era, or in Calvin’s Geneva. Bad medicine, bad food, bad water – believe or say the wrong thing in the wrong place and wind up imprisoned or dead or both? No thanks, I’ll give two cheers for the Enlightenment even if it has had some undesirable impacts on the church & society – on the whole it was a good thing.

  192. numo wrote:

    When Paul talked about armor and whatnot, he was speaking of standing fast, not setting out to conquer. If written by Baring Gould, then it is more than likely a result of the imperialistic attitude that characterized Britain (and its attitude toward empire, both physically and spiritually) than an5thing else.

    I agree about standing fast, but the sword of the spirit (the Word of God) is not a just a defensive weapon. Plus the armor is supposed to be used against “the wiles of the devil” (Eph. 6, v.11). The hymn, especially the 2nd verse, says the same.

    Here is a link to all 5 verses:

    http://www.hymnsite.com/lyrics/umh575.sht

    I don’t know if Baring-Gould was influenced by an imperialistic attitude, but neither do you.

    It’s just our opinions that differ, but agreement on everything is not a requirement. We are still brothers and sisters in Christ.

  193. pk47tech wrote:

    What is CRU? To the uninitiated it’s just a 3 letter acronym that hasn’t been defined in this article or the support articles linked here.

    Is your Google broken? In most browsers, you can right-click and select “look up”, and it will automatically search the highlighted text for you with your default search engine. Hope that helps.

  194. Burwell Stark wrote:

    In my opinion, Piper said that Bob and Penny were wasting their lives, not because they collected seashells by the seashore, but because (follow me closely here): Penny wasted her life by working full time, and possibly having authority over a man at her job. She missed God’s glorious complimentarian design and therefore is doomed to a life reduced to whiling away her time collecting shells, riding in a yacht, and enjoying her new friends in the beautiful Florida sunshine. God have mercy on her soul.

    That made me lol!

  195. Jed Paschall wrote:

    Just a friendly reminder from the Village Calvinist – I’ll go back to the pillory and let the rotten tomatoes fly.

    While not a Calvinist myself, I am very thankful when you and others speak up to point out that the Neo-Puritans are not really Calvinists, and certainly not Reformed in any honest use of the word.

  196. @ Ken P.:
    I strongly suspect he was, since the British sent droves of missionaries to every part of their short-lived empire. They didn’t “succeed,” for the most part, if only because

    1. Xtianity was the religion,of the conquerors

    2. They tried to impose British culture and social mores along with conquest and religion

    If i were one of the conquered, i might have found Christ congenial, but not all the rest of the considerable impositions placed on the inhabitants of the places they conquered. I did look at your link and was kind of stunned by the discussion of “marching hymns.”

    Please try and think about how people from territory conquered by the British must have felt about this song. It is pretty well inseparable from the occupying military forces, don’t you think? As such, there’s a direct parallel to 1st c. Palestine.

  197. @ numo:
    Add: mid-late 19th c. Britain was, not coincidentally, the height of the empire. Victoria was even referred to as Empress of India.

  198. @ numo:

    They tried to impose British culture and social mores along with conquest and religion

    Probably more like Christianity = civilization = British/European culture and social mores, is what I’ve gathered from my limited exposure to the subject. Thus why the missionaries in The Coral Island make the converted natives live in British houses and wear British clothes even though the climate is completely different.

    I don’t mind all of the militaristic/triumphalistic hymns because I appreciate the idea in a lot of them that Jesus has my back and will be in the ultimate Victor in all this mess and defeat Satan. But yeah, I can see your point about how different audiences would hear them, and some of them are definitely worse than others. Stand Up, Stand Up for Jesus tends on the annoying side for me because it sounds too much like culture warriors in today’s climate. Kinda makes me think of lame Christian movies like God’s Not Dead.

  199. numo wrote:

    It is pretty well inseparable from the occupying military forces, don’t you think?

    Actually, no.

    I apologize for offending your sensibilities.

  200. @ Hester:
    Well, keep in mind that those hymns came out of the matrix of so-called “muscular Christianity,” as well as the mid-Victorian vogue for King Arthur. The British did see themselves as members of a superior “race,” and treated native peoples as not only vastly inferior, but often, literally, as ignorant children. (As we have done with enslaved people and their descendants, Native Americans, and Native Hawaiians.)

    As bad as the Spanish and Portuguese so often were to thd peoples they colonized, they had no “improvement” plans for the eradication of entire cultures in the way that the British did. The thing is, it didn’t work -although those folks in the former colonies have hung onto the good innovations the British introduced into their societies. (And the French, and so on.)

    Neither do i think all of the many missionaries were just touting their own spiritual and cultural superiority – a lot were decent, sincere people who tried hard to care for the poor, for the ill, for orphans, and to bring literacy and education to the people in the colonies. But i wonder just how many truly did see the local inhabitants as equals? To be fair, I’m sure thst going to India was a lot like landing on another planet, and vice versa for the people who were being ruled by a govetnment that was more than halfway around the planet. Still, the racism and condescension were always there, and never disappeared. And the British who did choose to be more open to adopting local customs and getting to know people faced immense social pressure to conform. It cannot have been easy for anyone with an open mind and heart to live like that.

  201. @ Ken P.:
    The words are familiar, as a lot of Baring-Gould’s pieces were in the hymnal i was raised on, and, being Lutherans, we sang all the verses, all the time.

  202. numo wrote:

    @ Ken P.:
    The words are familiar, as a lot of Baring-Gould’s pieces were in the hymnal i was raised on, and, being Lutherans, we sang all the verses, all the time.

    Here, in all Baptist churches’ VBS services, the children line up outside and walk (march?) into the churches. Then, we say the pledges to the Bible, the Christian flag, and the American flag. After we say each pledge, we sing a song. For the Christian flag, the song is almost always “Onward Christian Soldiers”.

  203. Eagle wrote:

    Hey (real name),
    Thanks for the offer. I appreciate you pursuing lunch together.
    I have discussed this issue about Sovereign Grace with several godly men inside and outside the church and they’ve assured me that years ago all was dealt with in a very biblical manner, that nothing was covered up but brought into the light for healing purposes.
    Therefore, I don’t see a need to meet up and talk in person, but Pastor Vince Hinders from Sovereign Grace told me he’d be happy to meet with anyone concerning these issues. Would you like his contact info?
    Thanks (real name)! God bless.
    Brett

    Eagle,
    Brett says he spoke with leaders inside and outside of the Sovereign Grace church in Fairfax and they assured him all was well. One of the men he obviously spoke with was pastor Vince Hinders. Vince Hinders was named as one of the defendants in the class action lawsuit filed by Susan Burke. As you know Ms. Burke is one of the top lawyers in her field and she undoubtedly had a strong case against everyone named as a defendant.

    I do not know Brett from CRU, but he is either siding with Mahaney and company, facts be damned (just like the pack of gospelly leaders scheduled to participate in the next T4G conference) or he is a fool. Hinders is a wolf just like Mahaney. I suppose Brett also thinks Mahaney has done no wrong because, golly gee willikers, Mahaney said so.

    Here is the link to view the defendants:

    http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/970485/22689936/1368570306447/second+amended+sgm+lawsuit.pdf?token=MJd31pZREBgRgs1UY6U5qTRDGoY%3D

  204. @ Nancy2:

    Here, there is always some “adventure” theme in the form of a program of learning, videos, songs with lots of hand motions, decorations, paraphernalia, etc, most likely written and designed by SBC Lifeway employees who receive royalties. It is quite expensive an undertaking.

    I have not heard “Onward Christian Soldiers” in church in decades. Perhaps because it does not require hand motions or go well with a fog machine. :o)

  205. @ Gram3:

    “Why is their god so severe and such a killjoy? Why would it not give God pleasure to see us delight in what he has done and what he has made?”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    does this factor in to their view of things?

    “Let the Lord be magnified,
    Who has pleasure in the prosperity of His servant.” Psalm 35:27

  206. @ Nickname:

    “Godly”….
    +++++++++++

    pure window dressing. it has more to do with ‘polish’ than anything else.

    I can imagine a person who is kind, generous, self-less, with certain speaking inflections, word choice, perhaps missing teeth…. I doubt it would occur to the mindless-twit-“godly”-wielders to extend that word to such a person.

    as my mother-in-law would say, “they are easily led”. and pitiable.

  207. Eagle wrote:

    BTW…can someone answer this? What is it with dude bros and beards in Acts 29? Are they trying to look cool or look like a man? Honest question?

    It just might be a ‘cool thing’ kinda sorta like the currently in fashion ‘bluto look’ (3-4 days & no razor), or it could be a full-on patriarchal and ‘biblical’ fashion statement. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think in Islam you hafta’ let your beard grow out.

  208. @ Lydia:

    “Oh My! Did we steal it like we stole “God save the King” and turned it into My Country Tis of Thee? :o)”
    ++++++++++++++

    its only fair….. have you seen the British Museum?

  209. @ Nancy2:
    Should note that I am from a mid-Atlantic state. Although flags appeared in many churches during WWII, I think few would agree with marching, pledging and so forth – though maybe I’m out of touch with current trends.’

    What I do know for certain is that this state has a very “mixed” religious makeup, which has been true since its earliest days as a colony. A lot of people who 1st came here had suffered brutal oppression for their religious beliefs, whether via state churches or via government authority, or a mingling of the two (like the unending wars in Germany that displaced so many during the 17th century). In consequence, many of the early immigrants were vehemently opposed to anything having to do with mimicking the state and/or the military. There are still large parts of the population who are, pretty much, dissenters and pacifists. This religious diversity and relative tolerance has had a big influence on the eastern and central part of my state, and of a number of other nearby states.

  210. Muff Potter wrote:

    Eagle wrote:
    BTW…can someone answer this? What is it with dude bros and beards in Acts 29? Are they trying to look cool or look like a man? Honest question?
    It just might be a ‘cool thing’ kinda sorta like the currently in fashion ‘bluto look’ (3-4 days & no razor), or it could be a full-on patriarchal and ‘biblical’ fashion statement.

    Beanies are big too. A Christain yarmulke?

  211. elastigirl wrote:

    pure window dressing. it has more to do with ‘polish’ than anything else.

    I can imagine a person who is kind, generous, self-less, with certain speaking inflections, word choice, perhaps missing teeth…. I doubt it would occur to the mindless-twit-“godly”-wielders to extend that word to such a person.

    as my mother-in-law would say, “they are easily led”. and pitiable.

    Right on the money elastigirl. Or like a bull’s-eye shot grouping at 300 meters.

  212. me wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Like Scientology uses their “free psych evaluations” to get you holding the cans and into the Org?
    Yup just like that.
    It is a form a “Holy Disception”

    They say when your church reminds people of Scientology, something is seriously wrong.

    (But then, doesn’t every MoG and Head Apostle and Gospel Glitteratus aspire to be David Miscavage?)

  213. Eagle wrote:

    BTW…can someone answer this? What is it with dude bros and beards in Acts 29? Are they trying to look cool or look like a man?

    Probably the same reason as shaved heads in SGM, Big Hair on TBN, and bowler hats in The Kirk.
    Or big mustaches on Stalin-era Party Members and toothbrush mustaches on Neo-Nazis.

  214. __

    “The Calvnesta 501(c)3 Church Contract Is Mightier Than The U.S. Constitution?”

    hmmm…

    The ‘ long term’ (r) access to the New Calvnist 501(c)3 religious community is by contractural obligation(s), created by an hired legal service(s). This means ‘lawyers’, not ministers of the gospel of Jesus Christ. 

    What?

    This really smells. Good thing that The Wartburg Watch (and other berean blogs) are putting out the word & warning. 

    This questionable organization (9 Marks) a  like 501(c)3 religious groups Dr. Albert Mohler is involved in, are indoctrinating hundreds of 20 something’s ; creating an army of new impressionable would be religious leaders who would plant T.U.L.I.P.’ ™  501(c)3 religious organized churches here in North America, and infiltrate other as well. 

    Please get yourself a good lawyer before signing anything from these type of ‘T.U.L.I.P.’ ™ 501(c)3 religious establishments. 

    Better yet, run don’t walk to the nearest exit.

    (sadface)

    ATB

    Sopy
    __
    Comic relief: “The Legend of Zoro”
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjcewqh2Yu8

    🙂

  215.   __

    “Jesus Certainly Did Not Invent This 501(c)3 New Calvinist Religious Toxic Waste!”

    hmmm…

    Nancy2,

      hay,

      It’s really all about kind folks exersizing their will(s) to do good things like calling into question & avoiding New Calvinst 501(c)3 religious ‘church’ establishments, and certainly their nefarious lawyer created church contracts, yeah!

    ATB

    Sopy
    __
    We Bereans R gonna find out whatz ITZ all about?
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hFNEmEm0xmg

    🙂

  216. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Probably the same reason as shaved heads in SGM, Big Hair on TBN, and bowler hats in The Kirk.
    Or big mustaches on Stalin-era Party Members

    Or whisks and plungers on Skaro.

  217. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Like Scientology uses their “free psych evaluations” to get you holding the cans and into the Org?

    In response to what me wrote:

    I have seen Campus Crusade for Christ (now Cru) teaching people to use “a religious survey” to fool people into listening to their pitch.

    I’ve been there too, getting on for 30 years ago, though not with CCC/Cru (or the Cru Paradox…) as such. The old evangelism-as-cold-selling-to-total-strangers thing is dying out, I think, but “cold selling” used to be THE definition of evangelism in a lot of Christian circles.

    To be fair/gracious, the survey approach is less, I think, about intentionally deceiving people than about making it easier for the would-be evangelists, many of whom were not particularly extrovert, to approach total strangers.

    That said… Even back in my younger days, I never really bought the idea that you could walk up to someone out of the blue and somehow persuade them to make a monumental decision that would fundamentally change them for the rest of their life. I’d put it this way: the easier you make the process of evangelism and convert-making, the cheaper your version of the good news * and the more watered-down your version of the Kingdom.

    One of the favoured approaches of the early church was to perform a remarkable miracle of healing… but that wasn’t the only way. Another was, at the Holy Spirit’s instigation, to run alongside a chariot containing a foreigner reading Isaiah, and baptise him before being miraculously teleported away. But then again, another was simply to go and join in a discussion. If there is a set recipe for introducing the good news *, I’ve not come across it, and I don’t believe there is one. In particular, I reject the approach of those who pick their favourite biblical incident and try to make a biblical pattern out of it.

    * By “good news” I mean the actual gospel, announced by and embodied in Jesus himself, not the tacky and tawdry “Gospel™” that is increasingly being used as a branding adjective.

  218. K.D. wrote:

    Sorry, but this new bunch of Neo-Cals just don’t have the get out there and witness….unless you got money….

    The Gospel according to The Ferengi?

  219. Mara wrote:

    Chicago University has a archaeology museum that I toured one time. One of the displays was a small temple with an idol inside as the focus point. But along the walls were little statues of the worshipers. Because you see, this pagan deity also required 24/7 attendance and adoration. But the people had to support themselves with their farms and livestock so they set little representations of themselves to attend the 24/7 deity.

    Sumerian Votive Statues?
    (Sumerian votive statues have a distinctive look — almost anime wide-eyed with both hands pressed to the chest as if they had BAD heartburn.)

  220. I know this is a month old post, sorry to bring it up again. To be honest I’m not surprised at all. The CRU organization here is notoriously obnoxious about its ministry, they have a very in-your-face, loud style of proselytizing, and the university has gotten complaints from Muslim students of harassment from CRU members. They’ve also been known to bombard the deans and department chairs with complaints about professors who have dared to teach things they disagree with, or who asked them to keep their preaching outside of class. They’re kind of a menace, really.

    I was not aware they were pushing SGM though. That is really a new low.

  221. Pingback: A Comprehensive Overview of Cru’s Winter Conferences for December 2015/January 2016 … Paul Tripp, Curtis Allen, Kenji Adachi and Scott Nickell are Some of the Speakers | Wondering Eagle