"RU tired of trying to find residential treatment that is effective and affordable? If so, try RU! We operate a beautiful 100-bed facility for men and a gorgeous 40-bed facility for women at our headquarters in Rockford, Illinois. This program boasts an over 90% success rate among its graduates."
Cured by the Word Hoodie (Screen Shot)
* UPDATE: 9/1/15, 10:30 a.m. We are not certain that Josh Duggar has checked himself into the Reformers Unanimous facility in Illinois after all. Where in the world in Josh Duggar???
*********************
Even though their show has been canceled, it seems impossible to avoid seeing the Duggars in the headlines. They clamored for media attention, and they got it in spades!
This afternoon I was standing in line at a store waiting to check out, and I couldn't help but notice two magazines – People and In Touch – with Josh Duggar on the cover. It's hard to escape all the media coverage. Earlier today WGN (Chicago) reported the following:
ROCKFORD, Ill. — The rehab facility where Josh Duggar says he will be treated for sex addiction is located in Illinois.
Duggar checked himself into the Reformers Unanimous facility in Rockford last Friday, according to London's Daily Mail newspaper.
For the next six months Duggar will read The Bible, pray and perform manual labor.
Several years ago I remember seeing "Reformers Unanimous" signs posted in front of a church near my home. My initial thought was that it must have something to do with the Neo-Cal movement… Boy was I wrong!
Reformers Unanimous (RU) is a 'ministry' that professes to help people overcome various kinds of addictions from alcohol, to drugs, to bulimia, to pornography, etc. as this video claims.
To familiarize myself with Reformers Unanimous, I spent some time perusing the website. Here is how RU describes itself.
Those listed on the RU staff are: Dr. Paul Kingsbury (pastor and chairman), Steve Curington (president), and Ben Burks (international director). As you can see from their bios, none of these men have professional training in curing addictions. Here is some information on Paul Kingsbury:
At sixteen he surrendered to serve Christ with his life under the preaching ministry of Dr. Jack Hyles of Hammond, Indiana. He began preaching in jails, nursing homes and rescue missions. He attended Maranatha Baptist Bible College and graduated from Hyles-Anderson College in 1976.
Kingsbury's close connection to Jack Hyles is particularly troubling to us.
It is interesting that Steve Curington continues to be listed as president because he died of a heart attack back in 2010, which his bio also states.
The supposed secret to their success is featured on the hoodie at the top of the post – Cured by the Word. They also follow 10 Principles, which you can read here.
Check out this screen shot from the website regarding 'residential treatment'. This appears to contradict the 90% success rate quoted at the top of the post.
For an overview of how the program works, you may find this video helpful.
As the video and the website indicate, there are various options for recovery from —
RU chapters where you live to
Residential Treatment Programs.
There are also resources you can purchase.
Here's the million dollar question… If Reformers Unanimous is so incredibly successful, why isn't it being used far and wide to treat all types of addictions? We would venture to guess that most people reading about the latest Duggar debacle have never heard of Reformers Unanimous.
Getting back to Josh Duggar, his life is going to be very different at the rehab facility, as an article on Page Six of the New York Post indicates. It states:
The residential recovery center will undoubtedly keep Duggar’s hands and mind busy as he works to kick his proclivity for porn and extramarital affairs. A typical day sees clients waking between 3 and 5 a.m. and spending their first hour “alone with the Bible and journaling.”
After solo prayer, Duggar can enjoy breakfast in a group setting, one of three meals served to residents throughout the day. From there, the “sinners,” as Richardson put it, prepare for their work-therapy assignment.
The former conservative lobbyist could spend 40 hours a week doing laundry, preparing meals or cleaning the facility. Every night there are also one- to two-hour classes with Biblical teachings, followed by prayer groups that are led by select residents.
“Trust me, nobody has a hard time going to sleep at night,” said Richardson.
The article further states that Anna will not be allowed an overnight visit until Josh has successfully completed sixty days of treatment. That's pretty sobering…
Just in case you'd be interesting in helping Josh and those like him who have harmful habits, you can help them by becoming a Reformers Unanimous partner. For just a dollar a day, you can make a difference. If you click on the partner link, the success rate is 82% (not sure why it keeps changing throughout the website).
And don't forget about the hoodie! It's on special for $25.00!
I am NOT buying this kind of “treatment” program for someone who had long-time sexual acting out/abusive behavior toward others. He knows the Biblical routine. It’s nothing new.
Was Josh sexually abused? If “yes” by whom?
First? A bible based prison that allows conjugal visits after 60 days of good behavior? I hope I'm wrong for the sake of Anna and her children, but I don't have much faith in this system. I wonder if this will make JD's "addiction" even worse. I'm addicted to ice cream. If I spent 6 months in RU, my first stop when I got out would be Dairy Queen.
Aw, I don’t type fast enough. Second.
Unfortunately, this type of "help" is all too available in the Christian bubble. You see cause the Bible is the solution to every problem. It is more than the story of God seeking to save his people, it is a counseling manual, and addiction recovery book and history book, oh and clearly lays out the future and in ways we can decipher the date of the end.of the world. This particular strain of recovery really brings dishonor on the name of Christ.
As far as the changing success rate, that should be a major red flag just as the connection to Hyles should send up warnings. I mean really how do they measure success and over what period of time?
Oh and third
A New York Times article on treating juvenile sex offenders:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/22/magazine/22juvenile-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Nancy2 wrote:
Sorry, Nancy2. I type nearly 100 words per minute.
Look at what this treatment center for juveniles does, which is what Josh should have been in years ago!
http://marshfoundation.org/services/juvenile-sex-offender-program/
International Association for the Treatment of Sexual Abusers:
https://www.atsa.com/
Dr. Anna Salter, an expert in sex offenders:
http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Sex%20Offender%20Treatment.pdf
TRIGGER WARNING.
Contains tough information about sex offenders and sexual abuse.
Interview with Dr. Anna Salter
author of the well-known book Predators
Pedophiles, Rapists, and Other Sex Offenders: Who They Are, How They Operate, And How We Can Protect Ourselves and Our Children
http://www.sott.net/article/272019-SOTT-Talk-Radio-Predators-Among-Us-Interview-With-Dr-Anna-Salter#
Apologies in advance for this “rabbit trail”.
Deb wrote, “It is interesting that Steve Curington continues to be listed as president because he died of a heart attack back in 2010, which his bio also states.”
Besides Eternal President Kim Il Sung, this reminds me of a 9Marx article excerpting a Schmucker book: http://9marks.org/answer/how-can-i-lead-my-church-clean-its-membership-rolls/
“Begin removing non–attending members, beginning with the easiest and moving to the hardest. From easiest to hardest…
Members who are dead. Put the names of any dead members of your church before the congregation with a motion to remove them from membership in the following business meeting. This gives the congregation some time to think about what they’re doing and why.”
Yep– don’t just have the secretary take ’em off the mailing list– make it a “teachable moment” for the sheeple! Of course, if you, the pastor, were unaware of Fred’s passing, you may have a “you” problem! Make sure you check the obituaries before disciplining and excommunicating Fred for violation of Heb 10:25. Otherwise Fred may be laughing at you from heaven, or other awkwardness.
Dear Deb and Dee,
Thanks for all you do for all of us, all of the hard-hitting stories, the tears you cry for all of the hurting folks.
Here’s a little Star Trek music (on a lighter note), a symphony in Taiwan conducted by a North Carolina (your neck of the woods) conductor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNZpiWUjd0c
Where is our friend Mierle? Hope I spelled that correctly! I stopped reading at the success rate at 90%!!!! Mierle, does this sound like some other organization touting those percentages for successes in treating addictions? Oh yes! Scientology has an organization called Narconon that states those same statistics. What makes this so disturbing at the onset is that anyone with a minor understanding of addictions knows that stats that high are not attainable. If they were, the treatments would be the next best thing since sliced bread.
Firstly, bulimia and eating disorders generally aren’t addictions so treating them as such isn’t actually treating them at all. Although arguably RU isn’t actually treating anyone anyway!!!
Secondly, Council is a body of people engaged in governance, counsel is what you give when you give people guidance and advice. Why do so many of these christian people who use this word so often get it wrong!!!
Why am I getting “New Bethany Home For Girls” vibes from this place?
Seriously, I’m immediately suspect of any of these “behavior reform” facilities that house people on their compound – I mean, “campus.”
Let us not forget the concept of ‘struggling’ which is a state of being somewhere between gloriously delivered from a life of, on the one hand, and giving up the ‘struggle’ on the other hand. People can define themselves as ‘struggling’ and get folks off their back sometimes. If you can’t be religiously perfect and you can’t any longer pretend because people are on to you, but you don’t want to give up all appearance of adhering to the idea that people can be religiously perfect (called out of the world, set apart, saved and sanctified, whatever terminology) then you can be one who struggles. A struggler has been cured/delivered/converted except for s/he continues to struggle. Therefore much can be forgiven and overlooked as long as the sinner/patient continues to struggle.
Let me give an example of this concept which has nothing to do with religion. The day I/we finished a course of radiation therapy the folks at the cancer center officially gave us a little pin to wear declaring us to be ‘cancer survivors’ when in fact the only thing we had survived was an initial course of treatment. That is pure nonsense, but if it helps people then so what I suppose, but it is disingenuous and misleading.
Struggling is like that. There is a saying that somebody is ‘not all the way saved’ with the implication that they are not all the way lost either. They are struggling. They are still a notch in some evangelical’s belt for a rescue from their issues/sins/conditions. Some would call this giving a person the benefit of the doubt, but it also can be an easy out rather than deal with the hard work of treatment and/or real repentance or whatever all is needed in the individual case.
Maybe Josh can be a good example of struggling, and maybe he can find a career path in being a perpetual struggler.
Isn’t this almost exactly the same as the ‘therapy’ that worked sooooo well for him before? Some parents/churches etc never learn.
Now imagine for a moment that you were “struggling” with cancer. And imagine that there was a nice, Christian alternative to your oncologist, that encouraged smoking while eating fried peanut butter and banana sandwiches. Yeah.
@ Velour:
Thanks for those links. Excellent article. I’m looking forward to listening to the podcast. I have seen the difference between therapists who get duped by predators, and those who know what they are up against. Christians are especially naive according to Dr. Anna Salter.
@ Velour:
Agreed. The Duggars should have gone this route YEARS ago.
Beakerj wrote:
That’s been my thought since I first heard about it.
What is he going to hear there that he hasn’t already been indoctrinated in during his Gothardite upbringing?
This may provide a measure of help to a drunk off the street who’s never had an environment that wasn’t alcohol and abuse, but to those who already know better, have loved the good life, yet still chose to sin….?
The amount of head contained up their own donkeys is frightening.
So, no social workers, psychiatrists, psychologists, etc, (actual professional counselors with degrees from accredited universities) who are trained in treating addictions. Yeah, that’s gonna work.
cookingwithdogs wrote:
Most Christian recovery ministries are run under this same model. They absolutely refuse any of those trained professionals because they are secular and use secular methods to treat addiction. In the minds of these people all anyone.needs is a bible and prayer. Of course these same individuals will go see a doctor and stop by the drug store to purchase and use whatever scrip the doctor ordered. This is just another form of nuethetic counseling you know where everyone is qualified to counsel. It is a rediculous system that at best brings sobriety to some people as long as they remain inside the system. In other words they go from being addicted to an activity or substance to being addicted to a system of control. Seldom do you ever find any graduates of these programs who have attained any real level of life recovery. They usually just trade one addiction for another and go from something controlling them to someone controlling them.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
It happens all the time. Remember the fiasco about apricot pits?
Beakerj wrote:
I know, it looks like RU’s idea of “addiction recovery” is to distract their patients with so much labour and Bible study that they have no room in their minds for anything else. Which doesn’t strike me as a particularly effective way to get to the root of anyone’s problems. Just more managing of the externals.
This should be seen as an alternative which should be used parallel with main stream treatment only if it is not interfering with anything
Off Topic, but I’d like to share with this group. Yesterday, an article went up at TGC which quotes and references Jonathan Leeman prolifically.
This is a quote from JL that describes the unchurched Christian:
“You insist Christianity must be “congregationally shaped,” but what if I’ve found solid Christian community outside of a local church?
I’d say you’re a freeloader! You live in a world in which local churches still do the hard and biblical work of identifying people as Christians through baptism and the Lord’s Supper and then nourishing them through congregational and elder oversight. And then you’re taking all of this good fruit and nourishing your “fellowship” with it.
Without churches, in other words, how would you know your Christian fellowship is actually “Christian”? Imagine a world with no local churches. How would there be any accountability for who is and is not a Christian? Who would separate right teaching from wrong teaching, or call out the hypocrites and heretics? ”
I responded last night with a brief account of my 9 Marks-based excommunication. I reminded JL I had contacted him for some kind of help while I was in the midst of it, as in contacting my then-elders to facilitate an understanding of the true situation underlying what I then believed to be a misunderstanding. I received no response from JL then, and my comment went to moderation and was deleted last night.
This article seems to be buried now. I can’t find it by author/subject search or chronological search, however this link works: http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/hey-christians-polity-matters
TGC has labelled those who seek refuge from abusive churches in loving Christian communities as “free loading” off the faithful and difficult labor of church hierarchies who rightfully judge and weed out losers like me. I have watched their cultic mindset become increasingly refined and entrenched. They are, in my opinion, storing up judgment for themselves for damage that they cannot possibly undo in this lifetime. And yet, we call them basically good guys.
I’d love a dialogue with JL and Mark Dever. Any chance TWW could provide the venue?
As successful as Scientology’s Narconon, according to their PR.
Sarah Fegredo wrote:
I didn’t know this mistake was so widespread, but I noticed it too!
There are quite a few typos in the screen capture above, among which there seems to be some confusion over whether the organisation is called “Reformer [singular] Unanimous” or “Reformers [plural] Unanimous”, since both are used in the same paragraph. The page from which the screen-shot was taken refers to 12 years of growth, but since the organisation apparently started in 1996, that would make the page 7 years out of date. And so on.
As a follower of Jesus, and a scientist, I must confine myself to the evidence I have – conceding that the 5 minutes I’ve taken to research the above is the sum total of research I’ve ever done into RU and that, therefore, I basically know hee-haw aboot it (as they say in Glasgow). I feel justified in saying that the written content of their website was not adequately proof-read and is not adequately maintained.
That might be symptomatic of a deep-rooted culture of shoddy workmanship that pervades the entire organisation, or it might be that they focus all their efforts on the more important business of working with addicts, and do all their publicity on a relational/networking basis, so that the website gets less attention. Put another way, it could mean everything, or nothing; or anything else, come to that. Judgement reserved so far, I suppose.
GovPappy wrote:
If at first you don’t succeed,
DOUBLE DOWN AND SCREAM LOUDER!
Velour wrote:
But that was SECULAR(TM).
@ original mitch: – Off-topic, but I’m more than a little curious about the adjective in your name. Are there cheap imitation mitches of which we should beware?
Is Josh really at RU? Seem’s he’s a no-show. http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2015/09/josh-duggar-no-show-at-rehab-meetings-whereabouts-unknown/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Nick, I dont know that you need to beware of them although I would be leery of any Mitch I met. I have read hear for several years in the shadows for reasons i will keep to myself, but did start commenting from time to time over the last year or so. about a month or so ago there was another Mitch who started commenting here and his comments we of the apologetic type for what ever church abuse topic was being discussed. In order to avoid any confusion I went ahead and added original to my name. I thought about going with Classic and seeing if the new guy wanted to be New Mitch but decided that didn’t work out well for Coke so it might not work so well for new Mitch. Besides, I have been called many things as a descriptor so Original seemed to fit.
I agree with your comment about the RU web site. I would say that if they use that web site as a way of maintaining and establishing relationships with supported/donors, it is a sad state of affairs but not at all uncommon for ministries and even churches. They start a web site with the idea they need one, but really have no expertise in maintaining and little inclination to get that expertise. Before long the web site is forgotten and actually harming them as much as helping. People who look at things using critical thinking skills will leave that website a bit perplexed.
Does “Reformers” Unanimous imply that these folks hold to reformed theology … or simply in business to “reform” you of your addiction? Does anyone know if they are Calvinist in belief and practice?
It seems to me that everyone is forgetting the basic biblical principle laid out clearly in 1 Corinthians 5 – to not associate with a believer who lives an immoral life "with such a one do not even eat." For crying out loud…how will more BIBLE help Josh? What evidence is there that this man ever truly repented and was changed by Christ from the inside out? Why can't everyone…especially his wife and extended family…cut him loose? Why not have him on his OWN with his OWN job in a small apt. somewhere…contemplating the loss of his wife and kids? Why can't everyone just do it Gods way…clearly…to not associate and hope that God will use hardship to humble him till he repents??????
Mouseyhair wrote:
Mirele has definitely pointed out the failure rate of Scientology and these conservative Christian organizations’ deplorable *treatment* programs.
She also had a fall recently, has dizziness and inner ear problems since then. Hold a good thought for her, please.
From the original post:
Well, at least Anna will be getting a short break from consecutive pregnancies. I think that’s a good thing. She deserves at least some kind of rest — though I doubt that she’ll be able to appreciate it much. 🙁
cookingwithdogs wrote:
Not only that, but (from the Page Six article):
Drug addiction is simply lumped in together with all kinds of other “sin”. No indication of any distinction between different kinds of problems, or the awareness that they require different solutions.
Not encouraging.
Janet Varin wrote:
Someone famous in a really old book once said you would know His followers by their love for one another. Wholly absent from the authoritarianism we are seeing out of 9Marx/Acts29 and NeoCal churches & their Ilk…as they all replicate the abusive Shepherding Movement from the 1970s.
I am not the least bit surprised by this. They lack transparency and honesty. They are arrogant. They don’t want to admit all of their System’s abuses and failures. Jonathan needs his job security.
Sarah Fegredo wrote:
THANK YOU for saying so. As the mom of a child w/ an eating disorder, I can tell you that it’s an incredibly strange, slippery, complex disorder, and may have more in common w/ OCD and sensory processing disorder than addictions. Again, these are things that *doctors* should be treating. 🙁
I had never heard of this group but when I looked up where there were programs in our area, I found 3 – all at very conservative and KJV-only churches. My concern with this type of program, and with some faith-healing, is that if you aren’t successful or healed, the blame can easily fall on you for not doing ENOUGH Bible-reading and prayer, or having enough faith, making you feel even worse.
@ Amy Smith:
Who knows what the Duggars are up to. Maybe RU gives special treatment to their celebrity clients. Christian celebrities seem to get more classes than secular celebs. Maybe RU was a decoy. Maybe Josh jumped ship. We really don’t know. One thing is for sure, the more JBD creates confusion and makes false statements, the more he appears to be a deceptive man.
Bridget wrote:
Should be *passes*
Arlene wrote:
And not helping your condition at all.
Bridget wrote:
I don’t know what the Duggars are up to, but it would be a marketable success story for RU to have a celebrity ‘cure’ like JD. Good for business, especially if he became a spokesman for the program (and programs like it.) It would surely beat selling survival stuff on the TV.
abigail wrote:
Exactly Abigal. The assumption is that Christian celebrities are Christians … and for that matter that all pastors are Christians! We once attended a church whose pastor had been in the ministry for 14 years … one Wednesday evening, he proclaimed that he was now saved and the associate pastor baptized him the next week! Prior to his salvation, he was a great preacher … proof that a talent to speak and ability to construct a Bible message does not equal knowing God. Every recovery program offered by Christian organizations should start with a Gospel presentation, with a clear call to repentance and acceptance of Christ. If the candidate does not express such faith, any old recovery institution will do.
Bridget wrote:
I’m glad you added that correction. The original made just enough sense to be confusing!
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
And if it works, it only works as long as the distraction lasts.
Janet Varin wrote:
Is this a re-working of previously published material? Or just repetition on a familiar theme? I could swear I’ve read this before.
Janet Varin wrote:
From personal, painful experience with “pastors” cut from the same kind of cloth, I would say that a “dialogue” is not possible.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
My auto correct has a mind of its own. I swear I have typed the word I actually want to use and seen it on the screen only to look back a few words later and see it has been corrected to an undesired word.
Janey wrote:
Welcome for the links.
I was ordered to be excommunicated/shunned at my former NeoCal church. The pastors/elders said I was obviously destined for Hell and read me Scripture about that for bringing up the safety of our church’s children. The pastors/elders brought their friend a Megan’s List sex offender to church, told no one, gave him membership, put him in a position of authority and trust, let him go to all church activities including the Bible study I attended where parents brought their children, permitted him to touch kids and said it was fine, and told me I was to never contact law enforcement again, and pastors/elders said he was coming off Megan’s List. His supervising law enforcement agency called that all lies!
Pastors invited him to volunteer at children’s 5 day basketball camp. Parents did not know!!!
Josh could actually be at the RU facility, and they’re just treating him as a special case due to his celebrity so the media won’t be trailing him everywhere. I wouldn’t put it past Jimbob to request something like that.
okrapod wrote:
That has definitely crossed my mind. But if he isn’t treated like everyone else in any program he is in, what use is his success story. BTW a success story to me would be complete a professional state licensed program and live a respectable life for 10 years. Then you *might* be marketable.
NJ wrote:
Media wasn’t an issue before!
@Bridget – speaking of autocorrect, if you want a good laugh, look at damnautocorrect.com. I haven’t laughed that much in awhile. Unfortunately I had bronchitis when I was reading it, so really all I did was cough to death.
@ Original Mitch:
Mitch, thanks for your reply. Although I obviously meant to inject a little humour into my question, I hope it didn’t come across as snide – I didn’t mean to joke about anything that isn’t funny.
The RU website is a bit of a dog’s dinner, isn’t it? Actually there seem to be several sites, and it’s difficult to find a single welcome/home page. Bit like driving round Edinburgh airport and wondering Just where the heck is the car park entrance?
Bridget wrote:
You’re lucky.
I have ADHD – my brain has a mind of its own.
Amy Smith wrote:
I have wondered about this since the news first came out. I saw people source “Gawker” but the article they had up only said, “probably” at RU. No confirmation.
Let’s see if I can get this to format right. I’m taking the risk of not reading through the entire thread before responding. This kind of thing drives me crazy! Maybe it needs a topic of its own.
Janet Varin wrote:
First of all, how do local churches exclusively identify people as Christians through baptism and the Lord’s supper?
I personally knew someone who came to Christ on his deathbed. No church involvement needed. In fact, when I was in tears, talking with the “pastor” of my church shortly before this person’s death, mourning that he rejected the Bible and prayer utterly and would not let me pray in his presence, the “pastor’s” callous comment was, “Well then, he might as well die sooner than later and get it over with.” (He apologized to me years later, after walking his own difficult road, lest you think he continues a pompous jerk to this day.)
Secondly, I am old enough to remember the “Jesus movement.” Given, they might not have been doctrinally sound, possibly dangerously unguided (there were the spinoffs, the cults; I remember those as well and had friends who were drawn into them and badly damaged). But what I remember of the people I knew was their joy, their love, their exuberance. Some of them had been into drugs but had found such joy and release in the love of God that they didn’t need drugs anymore. They baptized each other in local streams and lakes, and shared communion together of one accord, reading or reciting Bible verses “and hymns and psalms”, singing in beautiful harmony. They started coffee houses where students could come and be welcome, where there was music and Bible study and prayer if you needed it. Seen through the misty lens of distant memory, I’m reminded somehow of something from Godspell.
And the “nourishment” of the congregation and elders in our old church was more than we could stomach. It drove our children out of the faith, and seriously damaged my own faith (I have good days and bad days. Maybe I should say, “good seconds and bad seconds.” I take things moment by moment.) It nearly destroyed our family. The elders gave me to understand, in our last interview, that it would have been better for our family to stay at that church, even if it meant our teens ran away to live on the street, rather than in a family under the influence of hyper-calvinism. Because, if we left that church? Our fate would be to go from church to church in search of a message we found pleasing, rather than dealing with hard truths and the sin in ourselves and our children. And I guess if we finally found a pleasing church, its practice and teaching would be ineffectual in terms of the working of god’s plan.
Oh my word. These people are really stuck on themselves and their importance in the scheme of things, aren’t they? Somehow I can’t imagine Paul saying to God, “You need me more than I need You! What would you do without me?”
I can’t help thinking of the verses in 1 Cor 3,
6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.
Seems the opposite attitude to the one displayed by J. Leeman.
If you grow up Gothard, you’ve spent a lot of time reading/hearing the Bible. That is clearly not the problem or solution for Josh Duggar. It is too bad that the Duggars are so scared of the secular that will not seek help from the experts on this very complicated problem that has much more than a spiritual element .
I wish him success and to stay permanently out of the public eye. But. This is starting to look like the the political and celebrity shtick. Subject checks in for rehab, checks out with certificate of goodness, everyone is told to move on. If you harbor suspicion, you are accused of bitterness, RU has a treatment for that, only $599.
Do Deb & Dee offer certificates of goodness? I want one along with the coffee mug.
refugee wrote:
Exactly. They don’t do dialogue except when it is a monologue disguised as a dialogue. They preach. They are the Leaders. We are the Listeners, the Submitters. We do not have the role of Speaking, and especially speaking to the Leaders who have been given the “burden” of spiritual authority over us.
What is interesting about that article is that pesky word “beautiful.” It is becoming a red flag for something really ugly they are trying to slip by us and hope we don’t notice how it really is quite ugly. We are not supposed to think but just emote about “beautiful.” Yet another word they have corrupted. They are not authoritarians, so they say, because that is so destructive. No kidding. But they are not *true* authoritarians. Uh huh. All the talk of “exercising the keys” and ” you can’t leave until we say you can leave” and “you can’t ask questions that make us uncomfortable” and “go away if you don’t like how we have taken over your church” sure sound like what a true authoritarian would say.
The other thing that was hilarious if it were not so tragic is that one of the “reasons” proffered for the institutional church is “accountability.” That was a howler. Since when have *any* of these guys shown any interest *at all* in holding their peers accountable?
Original Mitch wrote:
Last summer, a hot August day, I was researching online for a new church. I visited the web site of a local church, going to their services page I found only “no services today due to snow”.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
As a proofreader by hobby (I would love to be one by trade; it seems the height of luxury to me, to be paid to find typos and misused usage but such work has been difficult to find lately), I confess I am amazed at finding such things in advertising copy. It doesn’t speak well for the person soliciting your dollars! (Or euros, or pounds, or…)
Ah, yes, I make my share of mistakes (my most frequent mistake is to forget to close a parenthetical thought, leaving it hanging and only realizing it after hitting “Post Comment”), even as a habitual proofreader.
But, for the website to be several years out of date, and still containing “council” for “counsel”?
Evokes the image of the blind leading the blind, doesn’t it? They are unaware of the proper usage, and any readers in their audience who are also unaware of the proper usage are just going to go along in blissful ignorance. The irony of the thought is somehow stunning. (Or maybe that’s the result of the headache I’m fighting today.)
“I wish him success and to stay permanently out of the public eye.”
If only.
Right now I have about as much hope of that for JD as I do for Tullian.
Bill M wrote:
I had to laugh at the image of a blinding blizzard taking place inside that church. Shades of Harry Potter!
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Hah. I may take this for my own and quote it. Frequentl… oh! Shiny!
@ Gram3:
I am tired. Maybe that is why I don’t seem to understand anything any more, so indulge me a minute. From what I read here there are a gracious plenty people who are willing to get involved in authoritarian churches and apparently just go along to get along. At the same time my/our recent experiences with, for example, the local public school system indicates that there are swarms of people who do not hesitate one second to challenge authority. So where do all these people come from who let themselves be controlled?
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
And these types (forgive me for generalizing) also may not believe there is such a thing as mental illness. There’s no such thing as an imbalance in brain chemistry. People don’t need to take psychotropic (is that the right word?) drugs for things like bipolar, clinical depression, schizophrenia… They just need to pray more and be prayed for, take every thought captive, “be not anxious” and all the rest.
I have heard Gothard-influenced people claim there is no such thing as mental illness. And psych-oriented professionals are deluded and humanistic and will lead you away from god.
Oh, and maybe an exorcism is needed, y’know, to deal with indwelling demons and demonic oppression. (Does the Independent Baptist crowd do the spiritual warfare/demonic thing, or do they deny the concept of spiritual warfare and demons in the present day?)
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
The following was not a response to “autocorrect” as above, but to *this* (just above ^^^). Sorry for the double post but otherwise it’s just too confusing.
And these types (forgive me for generalizing) also may not believe there is such a thing as mental illness. There’s no such thing as an imbalance in brain chemistry. People don’t need to take psychotropic (is that the right word?) drugs for things like bipolar, clinical depression, schizophrenia… They just need to pray more and be prayed for, take every thought captive, “be not anxious” and all the rest.
I have heard Gothard-influenced people claim there is no such thing as mental illness. And psych-oriented professionals are deluded and humanistic and will lead you away from god.
Oh, and maybe an exorcism is needed, y’know, to deal with indwelling demons and demonic oppression. (Does the Independent Baptist crowd do the spiritual warfare/demonic thing, or do they deny the concept of spiritual warfare and demons in the present day?)
okrapod wrote:
Public school kids are controlled, just not by the teachers. From what I hear of a public high school teacher we know, the kids are controlled by their peers and social trends. That has always been the case, but now it is way beyond what we ever thought of. The teachers are controlled by the top-heavy administration which is controlled by educational bureaucrats at the local, state, and federal levels which are controlled by corporate interests.
IMO everyday life has become very convenient but also very complex and much more of a black box. It may be that the overburden of authorities who are unaccountable breeds a sort of learned helplessness and a desire for someone to just tell us how to make it work.
All that to say I actually have no idea why people put up with control-freakery.
okrapod wrote:
Well, the authoritarian churches of my acquaintance insist that homeschooling is the only godly way to educate children. So the children of families in these authoritarian churches are not among the swarms of authority-challengers in public schools.
I could see where people who are bothered by chaos might be attracted to some kind of outward order. When one of our teens tried public school after years of homeschool, the kid was disgusted at the disorder and disrespect (both to the teachers and the fellow students in the classes) shown by disruptive students. This kid just wanted to get on with things, get the learning done, and the disruptions got in the way.
However, this kid has already been thoroughly inoculated against christianity, and so will not go looking for order in any kind of church setting, I’m pretty certain.
abigail wrote:
This just makes way too much sense.
Deb: ” Where in the world in Josh Duggar???”
Trying to get it on with Carmen Sandiego?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1EIUP8tvbE
(Sorry. My time spent in the 90s is leaking out)
Arlene wrote:
Arlene, that is par for the course. In these systems it is always the addicts fault. There is no real understanding of addiction or how different substances or activities rewire the brain, all these people know is their proof texts and surprise surprise most of them are KJV only. Dont get me wrong there are certain texts that I love in the KJV but to say that it is the best or most accurate translation is nothing more than tilting at the windmill of modernism. Which by the way is the real problem here, they reject anything new or modern, why not their superstition works pretty well for them.
Max wrote:
If it was influenced by Hyles-Anderson at the time implied in the webpage, I would say “not Calvinist.”
okrapod wrote:
The public school system does not inspire fear. Religion can and will:
“Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak; and that it is doing God’s service when it is violating all his laws
~ John Quincy Adams ~
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Grammer don’t matter if yer heart is right with Jesus!
(yes, I know it’s really “grammar” — drives me up the wall when fellow homeschoolers spell it “grammer” or write “Walla!” instead of “Voila!” but then I know I make my share of typos, too.)
http://www.challies.com/articles/my-wifes-plea-to-christian-men?utm_content=bufferf99a6&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer — a post that might be interesting to you all, considering that the topic has been much in the news lately.
It’s been awhile since I’ve seen a KJVO joint be the subject of a TWW post, now that I think about it.
Welcome back, old friend.
Gram3 wrote:
Oh they arent interested in holding each other accountable, just those they disagree with theologically or interpretativly and of course you and i the pew peon. We must be held accountable and they are the ones to do it!
@ refugee:
Oh no, they’re all about it, generally.
That one caused a lot of pain for my dad, and still is. He (apparently, because he’s never attempted to get diagnosed) is chronically depressed, and was constantly berated from the pulpit for having a bad heart. My mom still treats him like that.
At least they never attempted an exorcism.
I don’t know if I have the energy today to get angry about this again, but this is right up my alley.
You know, this is just Scientology’s Narconon in different garb, all the way down to the “success rates.”
There’s a lawyer in Las Vegas who has filed a couple dozen lawsuits against the various Narconons out there on the behalf of plaintiffs who were misled into thinking Narconon was going to do something for them. I have to wonder if there are any Reformers Unanimous lawsuits?
Mouseyhair wrote:
Sorry I didn’t see this first! I just latched on to those fantastic, unbelievable rates and posted.
It’s my understanding that it takes more than one trip through rehab for it to “stick.” I have a relative who went through at least three different rehabs (and a couple of hospital stays) before he finally got it together. He’s now in the military (which he signed up for on his own after he got out of the last rehab) and I couldn’t be prouder with what he’s done with his life.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Is that the Elvis cancer treatment?
@ refugee:
Are Gotthard and crew medical doctors? Are they psychiatrists? I don’t think so. Over 20 years ago I was diagnosed with a major chemical imbalance. I had the choice of being counseled by my then pastor, or seeing the psychiatrist. I chose the psychiatrist as I trusted him more on the counseling issue. Plus he had to prescribe my medications. Yes, chemical imbalances are real. If I were not on medications, I wouldn’t be here today. Even after being on the meds for almost 25 yrs, I still check in with a psychiatrist every 3 months to make sure all is still going right. The same should be done for sex offenders like Josh and company. They need to be in a treatment center. He was raised on the Bible and actually I don’t think this place is going to do him any good. He needs to see psychologists and psychiatrists to get his life back in order.
@ Velour:
Thank you for the link. I’m hopeful that some will take the Duggar incident(s) to heart and begin to examine how PATRIARCHY itself, as practiced in the sub-cultures of fundamentalist-evangelicalism, is a breeding ground for abuse of girls and women by males. There are REASONS Josh Duggar did what he did and repeated his actions and went on to adultery . . . those reasons need to be explored in how they relate to his upbringing and his understanding of his ‘elevated’ male status as taught in patriarchy.
Velour wrote:
I just wanted everyone to know that I’m doing pretty well. The vertigo is limited to certain actions involving the left side of my head and as long as I avoid those (e.g., rolling over in bed, turning sharply to the left, etc.) I’m quite OK. I’d also note that the vertigo rarely lasts more than 10 seconds (I count). So it’s really, really mild but I do have an appointment with an ENT doc on Thursday to make sure everything is OK in there.
harley wrote:
Believe me, I am in complete agreement with you.
I think the Gothardite approach to mental illness is in the same family as the people of the past who conducted exorcisms, or locked up mentally ill people, or burned them as witches.
Is it just me, or does the Reformers’ program seem a lot like the one at the Bethany houses for girls?
Muff Potter wrote:
Muff I like that quote, where and when did he say or write that?
@ refugee:
harley, going back and reading what I posted, I can see it’s not clear I’m quoting the Gothard-followers; it might sound as if it’s my opinion that there’s no such thing as mental illness, there’s just sin and laziness in not taking every thought captive.
Believe me, I know from painful experience that mental illness is real. We hung out in a crowd that insisted it wasn’t, for some years, but there are some things you can bathe in the bible all day (and all night) long without impact, and it’s not for lack of fervent prayer or faith.
Like someone else said (something similar in effect), if a family member had diabetes, would they eschew medical help and insulin shots?
So how can they be so adamant about mental illness *not* having the possibility of a physical component?
They are stuck in the dark ages.
Regarding:
I don’t think that is going to get at the root of whatever Josh Duggar’s problem is.
If all it took was doing some chores around the home (laundry and what all) to get people free of sex addiction or alcohol or whatever, wouldn’t everyone be doing this, or advising it?
The usual Christian response to life problems (whether addictions, depression, grief, etc), is ineffective.
Whether it’s doing laundry, or telling the afflicted things like, “just pray more,” or “just read your Bible more,” none of this stuff actually works.
AnonInNC wrote:
LOL. I wonder if RU is surrounded by high fences with barbed wire and moats filled with crocodiles?
Beakerj wrote:
Yeah, that is something too.
The proposed “treatment” sounds exactly like how he was raised by his mother and father. I don’t think more of the same is going to work.
I’ve heard this before:
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
@ Daisy:
P.S. Assuming Josh is there or a similar place, if he goes through with this sort of “treatment” I bet the only thing he’ll get out of it, the only lesson is, next time he goes trolling for an affair, try harder not to get caught.
@ original mitch:
Totally agree with everything in your post.
Many Christians do the same thing with other problems, like clinical depression. They just tell you to read your Bible some more, go to church every week, pray more often, etc.
Janet Varin wrote (quoting some article):
And there is no guarantee the “Christians” you find in local churches are actual Christians.
I think a lot of so-called Christians in churches these days are not really Christian, which is why the self-professing believers who actually do care about Jesus and Jesus’ teachings are ditching local brick and mortar church buildings in droves in the first place.
Jesus and Paul warned in the New Testament that fakes and wolves in sheeps clothing would infiltrate churches.
I think a lot of churches these days are filled quite a bit with the fakes and the rest are too naive or apathetic to kick out the wolves and fakes.
And I’ve heard I don’t know how many sincere Christians say if they had stayed in a local church they would have lost their faith. They had to leave to hold on to Christ.
@ Amy Smith:
Quote from the article:
“Clandestine perv dropoff” ?
Okay.
Not necessarily disagreeing with the descriptor but found that a strange word choice for a publication.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
With these sorts of people, there’s only one solution: Bible reading (or other spiritual pursuits, like prayer, going to church).
I forget the expression, but something like, somehow when every problem looks like a nail to you, you use a hammer on it. (Even if a hammer isn’t the best or appropriate solution.)
okrapod wrote:
The students are challenging what authority, exactly? Not only is it too much to expect students to keep up with a pencil all day but it is really wrong to expect them to be alert for class instead of staying up most of the night on social media. Then it is the teachers responsibility to dumb down class for the students who refuses to apply themselves. They are all tested these days to see if they have any learning disabilities and there are plenty of accomodations for those that do.
I have seen parents (professionals!) bring their high schooler a diet coke because they received a text asking for one. The front office has to interrupt a class because the parent showed up with the diet coke. And we wonder why their is an entitled YRR movement of young men. It starts here.
When it comes to public schools, the inmates are running the asylum. Are there good ones? Of course, but the administrators/teachers are always making end runs around the parents and the experts at headquarters and in DC who know best in order to teach students accountability.
@ Arlene:
Completely agree with your post. Yes, those who don’t get a healing/deliverance at all, or not for years and years get blamed. They are told they didn’t pray enough or they lacked faith etc
Gram3 wrote:
Bingo. How often do I hear of principals being told by their Admin bosses not to have more than x amount of referrals every year? And every year the number is fewer. See, it looks really bad on paper if you have too many. So what to do with serious problem students which grows year by year? Just deal with them in class where YOUR kid who actually listens is trying to learn.
Jessa Seewald’s Father-in-Law Says ‘Wicked’ Josh Duggar Isn’t a Good Christian
http://www.people.com/article/michael-seewald-calls-josh-duggar-hypocritical-christian-ashley-madison
It’s troubling to me how these Duggar family and supporters were willing to give Josh a pass on the child molesting but only start to get upset over the adultery. The child molesting should have been a red flag of itself.
http://sbcvoices.com/dont-raise-your-daughters-to-breathe-fire-like-josh-duggar/#comment-299935
Sigh.
Daisy wrote:
It is thought that the original version was by Abraham Kaplan, which goes thus:
… which is even better in this context.
Another Abraham, Maslow this time, was responsible for the better-known
IHTIH…
@ Original Mitch:
His dad said something similar to that in a letter to Jefferson.
Here is another one about power:
The jaws of power are always open to devour, and her arm is always stretched out, if possible, to destroy the freedom of thinking, speaking, and writing.”
– John Adams, A Dissertation on the Canon and Feudal Law.
refugee wrote:
Did you see Hyles’ daughter’s TED talk about growing up in that cult? Linda Murphrey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJsOlLqBEyo
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
She’s single parenting four very young children. I don’t think poor Anna is getting a lot of rest.
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
No, she’s not. Maybe Jim Bob and Michelle have sent some of the younger girls over to help her. Not that I’m on board with that on a long-term basis.
Daisy wrote:
The default version of that expression goes:
“When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.”
And another guy told me an Army corollary that goes with it:
“If at first you don’t succeed, USE A BIGGER HAMMER.”
Lydia wrote:
Just like crime statistics in the old Soviet Union, according to the first chapter of the novel Gorky Park.
Daisy wrote:
In the vernacular during my time in-country in the Evangelical Circus:
“SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE!”
Amy Smith wrote:
Before the popups and auto-play ads drove me out, I noticed the following passage near the beginning:
“The Duggars’ private plane dropped him off…”
refugee wrote:
To which the obvious solution is “Make sure the distraction lasts FOREVER. SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE!”
Bill M wrote:
And Subject hits the comeback trail.
Daisy wrote:
“But this time We WILL Achieve True Communism!”
Gram3 wrote:
As former teacher (public schools in KY, and 1 in TN), I can vouch for most of what Gram3 says. The exception being that teachers really don’t have much control in many cases. There is great outside influence on the students by both peers and society. For problem students, many times parents are either absent or they have the “my child is a special exception to the rule” attitude. Teachers are hamstrung by administration and the legal system. I have been involved in teachers meetings where we knew for a fact that students were: sexually abused, being used as drug mules, neglected, etc., but because of state and federal laws, we could do nothing because we had no evidence that would be permissible in court.
As far as mental illnesses are concerned: one of my daughter’s step-sons is mentally challenged. He is bipolar, ADD, and schizophrenic. He can be sweet and polite one minute and violent the next. I would love to see some Gothardites take him on when he is off his meds.
Lydia wrote:
Whatever the comment or post is, I blame the woman/women. That is my all-purpose reason for everything that goes wrong in churches and homes due to their usurping nature and propensity to deception. I blame Lottie Moon for not planning ahead enough so that the IMB did not have to sell its capital assets to make payroll. What was she thinking??? Or the WMU! Where have they been all these years? Those women were supposed to be funding all those missionaries. Contributing their money is an approved role for women, and even Grudem and Piper have ruled on that issue. So what have these women been doing with all their money? Why are they not fulfilling one of the few roles that is legal for them? When are they men of the SBC going to get their uppity and irresponsible women under control?
Daisy wrote:
……because they don’t accept it’s molestation. Over and over we have read/heard what Josh did was wrong but understandable because all boys are curious about sex, blah, blah, except he got carried away.
I have not heard any in the fundy circle address this as incest and molestation. An emotionally healthy male adolescent, is not out there stalking and fondling, his younger sisters.
Yet, in the fundy community, adultery trumps everything else. Twisted, stinking, thinking.
Lydia wrote:
BINGO!!!
Nancy2 wrote:
This is what I have heard from teachers as well. The good teachers are caught in between the irresponsible and demanding parents (which may be the same parents) and the layers of administrators. The kids who want to learn cannot because the environment is so chaotic or they are bullied for their diligence. It’s a mess, but no one is willing to say or do anything that is not perfectly PC and approved by attorneys.
@ Lydia:
This explains alot about Jared Moore. Didn’t know he was tight with Bruce Ware.
“I’m married with four children, an SBC pastor, a Teaching Assistant for Bruce Ware & Greg Allison and a PhD student at SBTS, and an average Southern Baptist.” From his bio.
Lydia wrote:
Written by Jared Moore, teaching assistant for Bruce Ware, SBTS. That’s all we need to know.
I don’t sigh. I growl, snarl, and breathe fire!
@ Gram3:
I quit the WMU a 4 years ago. Poo on that. If the SBC wants it so badly, they can have it, and they can take the W out of the WMU.
Gram3 wrote:
Let’s not forget the football, basketball, baseball, etc. players whose coaches speak privately with the teachers and demand passing grades for nothing so that the stars can play in next week’s game!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Did they shove him out of the plane mid air with our without a parachute?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I find the Bible very frustrating in some ways these days, though I grew up respecting it.
Not that I totally disrespect it now, but I find it frustrating to read and no longer understand why other Christians are so gung ho to advise other Christians to read it for any and all pains and problems in life.
There are no final answers in there. You can read that sucker all day and not come to a definitive answer.
@ Nancy2:
Classroom situations can also be annoying or frustrating for the good kids. I was the angelic goody good growing up.
To a degree, I enjoyed learning. But in several classes over my life, there were problem students present, the kids who would mouth off, or act up.
Or, a few had learning disabilities (one school I went to though it would benefit the problem or learning disabled students to stick them in with the “regular” kids, but it never worked out that way).
The teacher would grind the entire class to a stop to deal with that one, lone kid.
So the rest of us, the other 29, who were behaved and even wanting to learn, would have to sit there in total boredom while teacher dealt with the one kid.
@ Bridget:
He has been trying to get their attention for years. He finally got an “in”.
@ Tina:
That article is a little ironic, in my opinion. When you uphold and defend the culture and ideology of Female Subordinationism, then act surprised when males in your group objectify and/or disregard women, I can’t take you very seriously.
Gram3 wrote:
I skimmed several of the comments over at the “Breathing fire” thread at SBCV that Lydia linked.
One guy actually said in the comments: “I don’t want any daughter of mine to be fiercely independent, but I don’t want her to be a doormat, either.”
I take issue with the “I don’t want my daughter of mine to be fiercely independent,” part of it, since that usually translates to, “I don’t think women should have healthy boundaries or be assertive,” even though this particular guy did stick in the “but I don’t want a door mat, either” qualifier.
Gender comp guys really do want women to walk a delicate balancing act, a tight rope of expectations that they issue.
You, if you are a Christian woman, you gotta be sweet, passive, and demure and compliant, but not TOO sweet and compliant, and they say they want you to be independent, but not TOO independent.
It reminds me of the conflicting, impossible dating advice gender complementarians give single ladies like me, that is just nuts.
They tell us stuff such as, “To attract a man, be sexy, but don’t be TOO sexy,” or “be independent and successful, but not TOO independent and successful”
We women are supposed to be just the right mixture of whatever qualities they dictate. I have just chosen to chuck all that nonsense out in the garbage and live life without worrying about all that stuff.
I also find it condescending they (gender comp men, sometimes gender comp women) expect women to live lives by how they (the GC men) define it for women.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yes and the same for factory output numbers.
@ Corbin:
Like so many otber people in the comp culture, they don’t connect the dots very well.
Lydia wrote:
And here I thought be was a nobody and his church couldn’t even afford a phone.
@ Gram3:
Here is the game. Jessica Kirkland’s facebook posting on Anna Duggar went “viral” in certain segments of Christendom. These guys always find a way to ride the wave and get their name “out there” when people google it. It is how they promote their “brand” and gain a following. Russ Moore has done this for years.
As you know they view their words as sacrosanct. But in fact, the only thing Jared does is twist her words to describe Josh– thus making her an angry feminist who is really trying to make Anna like Josh.
@ Bridget:
He has been jumping up and down for years on the internet saying, “look at me” and “prove it”. I doubt he is even paid as much as Chad Mahaney who has an internship there. Jared would lick their boots for free if they paid him attention.
I have grave concerns about these places lacking the technical and medical expertise to truly deal with this highly complex issue. Most addicts struggle for the duration of their lives. My bigger concern is over people feeling completely let down and abandoned by “God” if they are not somehow amongst this alleged 82-90% who are completely healed. Why would God miraculously heal 9 out of 10, but not me? The bible offers no such promise anywhere yet RU claims an 82-90% cure rate via The Word. When people enter professional medically supervised programs they are properly taught not to expect “miracles”, but an ongoing battle. They are then given realistic tools to fight that battle.
At Gateway Church, addictions are said to be demonic in origin. Exorcisms help, but like many other Word Faith churches, the Freedom Ministry teaches that you can merely speak an addiction away by invoking the name (and blood) of Jesus Christ. In Robert Morris’ book “The Power of Words” (sold and giving false hope all over world) people suffering from addiction are promised that:
“By controlling our tongues, we can control our bodies. What an amazing concept! If you are looking for the perfect diet—look no further! If you have a problem with addiction—here’s your answer! If you are struggling with lust—you can be free! All you need to do is control your tongue.”
Robert Morris grows unconscionably richer while those who fail to stop over eating, abusing drugs or struggling with porn addictions by merely performing daily affirmations are left believing they are not faithful enough or that their God is not powerful or good enough to help them. This RU program strikes me the same. God most certainly can aid and comfort us in our struggles. However, true addicts need professional help as well. This seems like a money grab perpetrated against families who are at their most desperate and vulnerable points in their life. The God angle is attractive in providing the promise of a “guaranteed” supernatural, no struggle involved, instant cure. But what about the aftermath?
Lydia wrote:
I think what is really bothering me about the Jared Moore article, is that he doesn’t address the REAL ISSUES with Josh Duggar and other Evangelicals who used AM. Instead, he goes after what he perceives to be the horrible “Feminism” in the response from a mom who is concerned for Anna Duggar and her children. He is attempting to “bring correction” to her theology in his article instead of acknowledging the problem. It is extremely disturbing to me that this is Jared’s focus.
Bridget wrote:
Either that or they don’t believe the dots even exist. The gist of what she says is “Stop it! You’re mocking Christ and hurting the church!” (A.K.A. Making us look bad).
Nancy2 wrote:
I used to blame teachers until I saw how the system really worked. I was appalled. Teachers are caught in the middle. Don’t make the parents angry and don’t allow administration to hear anything negative. So many schools are giant babysitting factory’s until they are 18 or even 21.
@ Bridget:
deflection: Here is the REAL sin!
Another question I have is if RU Chairman Dr Paul Kingsbury is a protege of Jack Hyles then why didn’t his 82-90% success rate program help Hyles’ successor and son-in-law Jack Schaap? Pastor Schaap is serving a 12 year federal sentence for crossing state lines to have sex multiple times with a minor. With such a fail proof system at Schaap’s fingertips, why didn’t Schaap pop in a few CD’s and save himself major disgrace, divorce and a lengthy prison sentence followed by life as a registered sex offender? Schaap could have had private sessions with the Chairman himself. If Schaap knew RU could cure him surely he would have enlisted such help, right?
Original Mitch wrote:
To the best of my knowledge Adams wrote it in a letter to Jefferson (circa 1816).
LT wrote:
Only if he got caught. Josh didn’t enlist until he got caught either. Hyles got caught too far down the road – by police.
Bridget wrote:
Beware of name-droppers in the New Calvinist movement … just saying he was “a Teaching Assistant at SBTS” would have been enough for his bio. May a multitude of women in reformed ranks get tired of the oppression and their second-class citizenship in the Kingdom and start breathing fire soon! Contending for true faith sometimes requires a little fire.
Nancy2 wrote:
I think that the financial disaster at the IMB is because all the deceived female executives at the IMB have been irresponsible. Probably too many manicures or something. What we need are some males who will step in and bring some responsible management to the SBC entities that these usurping females have driven into the ground.
Corbin wrote:
Exactly. And when you market Female Subordinationism as the fix for everything that is wrong with our culture, then you are in a real pickle if anyone stops to think for one minute. Did Challies himself have anything to say about his Female Subordinationist teaching? I doubt it. Females are not even allowed to read the scripture in front of the congregation at his church. The female voice is offensive to God, I suppose.
Jared Moore said: “if you raise your sons or your daughters to “breathe fire,” don’t be surprised when they breathe fire all over their spouses, friends, and God. That’s what fire-breathing dragons do after all.”
I say, what’s wrong with fire breathing dragons? They can love, too! BTW, does Peter look like one of our favorite NeoCals, or is it my new glasses deceiving me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu_rItLPTXc
Gram3 wrote:
Heh. I see what you did there. 🙂
I left you a reply a bit higher up the page, but it hasn’t show up yet
Lydia wrote:
Yes, of course that is their game. They only have one theme, and that theme is “Angry Feminist” or some variation on that theme. Better to talk about a viral post that a non-pastor wrote than to talk about the pastors who have *failed* in the one thing they are supposed to do. These are children with a microphone.
Max wrote:
The “breathing fire” concept for a woman in Anna Duggars position scares them to death. She might actually value herself.
Gram3 wrote:
Exactly!
Gram3 wrote:
I would go so far as to say they should ban females from churches and all church related entities. I’m sure things would run much more smoothly!
LT wrote:
I think the RU success rate is based on the premise that those who enter their program actually wanted help. I can’t speak to the Jack Schapp case, but any treatment program (RU’s or any others, be they secular or religious) will be ineffective if the participant(s) are there just “going through the motions” and really don’t want to change.
Gram3 wrote:
It’s not offensive, but in that situation, it is outside of it’s God-given role. The order of creation, properly lived out in the church, serves to display God’s Glory Gloriously to a dying world. How Glorious! 🙂
Corbin wrote:
And Beautifully Winsome!
Corbin wrote:
Gram3,
Nancy2 and I are looking for *submissive models* to model the new Hotel NeoCalifornia burqas that we will be selling at the big, big, big upcoming
Church Discipline conference.
Nancy2 and I are projecting MEGA sales of this important female clothing line to the likes of John Piper, Mark Dever, Jonathan Leeman, CJ Mahaney and their ILK to take home to the women-folk.
Would you like to *try out* for this important modeling job?
Very truly yours,
Velour, Vice President
of Product Development
at Shehad (pronoun She + Had, sounds like Jihad),
The NeoCals’ New ‘War on Women’
P.S. Our new logo is a burning stake.
Gram3 wrote:
Dee is Pathologically Winsome, and don’t forget it!
Snake Oil Salesmen comes to mind. I’m surprised that there is no regulation pertaining to this “treatment”. The sad thing is many addicts and folks with mental issues are already vulnerable. These people are going to get fleeced mentally and financially. When the treatment doesn’t work, they’ll assume God is against them, and be in worse condition than before…with potentially tragic results. This organization will also attract predators looking for potential victims among the vulnerable. I expect there will be an eventual expose by some enterprising news feed, by then the money will long gone.
@ Velour:
I will keep Mierle in my thoughts and prayers.
@ refugee:
I totally understand your thoughts. But the “church” doesn’t. I think Josh should be required for life to check in with a psychiatrist every few months. I think all the sexual predators should. I had people in the “church” tell me if I prayed hard enough and long enough my “depression” would go away. On my own I laughed at that. I have a medical problem. God gave my psychiatrists and psychologists the tools to help me deal with it. I thank God he did. You have to have the tools first. My husband and I even went to a psychologist for marital counseling as I had changed after my brain starting making the right chemicals again. That’s why these people like Josh need to be in a treatment program that gives them the right tools to get their life straighten out. Prayer and the Bible alone couldn’t do it for me. That’s why this program won’t work for Josh. They are not treating the problem. Just putting a big bandage on it. But if the problem isn’t fixed, then when the bandage is ripped off, then the problem is there bigger than it was before.
No one in that ministry is qualified professionally in any way to treat addictions. They are marginally qualified spiritually and their associations with other abusive IFBs are troublesome in the very least.
I can understand why Jess Seawald’s father-in-law would say Josh is a hypocrite. However, does he not believe in grace for Josh IF he truly repents and gets appropriate help spanning years? That’s a big IF, I know, but is there faith not big enough for that? Of course, we know it’s not going to happen, but one can hope.
Bridget wrote:
Exactly Bridget! This is about containing the PR damage. Tiger Woods only checked into his MS Sex Rehab clinic after his sex issues became public and his endorsement contracts were in jeopardy. Jared Fogle only hired a “world-renowned expert in sexual conditions” to help him “chart his course for recovery” AFTER his arrest, despite knowing for 4 months that the gig was up. Even Jordan Root only began therapy with a proper sex therapist after his issues were brought into the world spotlight. Josh D only sought this treatment out after strike two came to light. Apparently, it wasn’t enough of a concern prior to the publicity. Only when these men were confronted with losing their reputations and finances did they bother to act. They disregarded the pain that their actions would have on others to continue in their sin, despite having ample access to resources. It makes you wonder if any of them would have sought help had their issues not been publicized?
.
Fortunately for Josh Duggar places like ARC, Church of the Highlands and now Willow Creek are willing to put pastors in the throws of adultery right back in business, so who knows? He could end up with a bigger following and a far better salary as a result of all this.
harley wrote:
I think the Arkansas judge, as a favor to the Duggar family who ordered the police department to destroy the original abuse report as though it never existed, should be removed from the bench. She’s not fit to be a judge!!
(Sealing court records in juvenile cases is one thing. Destroying police reports?
That’s never done!!!)
Gram3 wrote:
After a very contentious business meeting in which one member was ranting and raving, a wise old man on the way out said “That’s why you don’t give the Devil the microphone.”
Mouseyhair wrote:
Thanks!
Mirele: We’re glad you are on the mend! (Thanks for the update.)
Daisy wrote:
SBC ‘Voices’…ahh yes, the site that blocks most women’s ‘voices’/comments from ever seeing the light of day. I hope they rename their website: SBC Cowards.
Gabriel wrote:
At my former Gulag NeoCal Church they didn’t believe in getting outside professional help for people with addictions (you know the places under the supervision and care of a doctor and all). Instead, they *took it upon* themselves and required copious amounts of the rest of members’ time in *meetings* to try *to resolve* problems with a woman who was an out-of-control alcoholic.
I know good doctors (even a Jewish one who is fantastic) who can kick it in gear and do a FAR BETTER job of getting people with these problems necessary help. I’ve seen outside, secular help save and transform peoples’ lives.
Janet Varin wrote:
I noticed this article as well. The NeoCals talk about the priesthood of the believers, but they don’t really buy it. 9 Marks talks about Congregationalists, but they are about hierarchy, ask Todd Wilhelm. I thought the real interesting statement (consistent with what Leeman says else where was this:
“It’s the governing structures of a local church that publicly declare who the Christians are and what the gospel they believe is.”
9 Marks believes in the institution of the church, not the church being an organic body.
I also, realize this is off the main topic. But, I think this is some of the worst thinking in the church today. Yes, we cannot stand alone as Christians, but these institutions that we are supposed to commit our hearts, mind, and souls to are not the sole representatives of the eklessia of Christ.
Velour wrote:
They are also committed to the institution. The institution is more important than the members. Remember there is no love in 9 Marks. The institutional church was not created for man, man was created for the institutional church.
Will M wrote:
Will,
You just read my mind: I was going to post that 9Marx/NeoCals/Acts 29 are known for their *lack of love*!
Dever & his Ilk, for all that loathe the Roman Catholic Church have created a church structure in their System where ever senior pastor is crowned Pope and the associate pastors/elders as Cardinals, complete with excommunications and shunnings. They are the most insufferable, arrogant people. They will not address the problems they have caused, the lives and reputations ruined, the lack of respect for other believers. They lack humility. They don’t have all of the answers.
Velour wrote:
Have you run into a young 9 Marks pastor? Try to convince them that they don’t have all of the answers.
Will M wrote:
Have I *run into” a 9Marx pastor? Oh honey, does being “run over” by a 9Marxist and elders count?
I was officially excommunicated and shunned for gasp, brace yourself Will M:
discussing the safety of the church’s children in light of the fact the 9Marx pastors/elders gave one of their super good friends who just got out of prison and was a convicted sex offender on Megan’s List, a church membership at our church, a position of leadership and trust, and access to all activities where people bring kids, including children’s sports camp for 5 whole days! Of course the parents don’t know!
And for my discovery, the 9Marxist said it wasn’t a big deal, he was coming off Megan’s List (his supervising law enforcement agency called that “all lies” and “total lies” as did the California Attorney General’s Office which runs my state’s Megan’s List), and the 9Marxist read me a scripture in a somber tone that I was *destined for Hell*.
According to the 9Marxist, anyone who protects children is – brace yourself – *destined for Hell*!
Velour wrote:
But he was just looking out for your soul, in a very loving way. Yes, there is no love in 9Marx.
Joe2 wrote:
I remember a comment from one of the threads about those abusive church-run homes for female delinquents (New Bethany?) where the commenter related how someone she knew not only survived the abusive group home, but actually came out ahead. Her angle?
“It was easy. All I had to do was out-Pious everyone else.”
Will M wrote:
Like Joan “Mommie Dearest” Crawford’s very loving way towards her daughter?
LT wrote:
Adultery seems to be a Privilege of Pastoral/Apostolic Rank.
Will M wrote:
No love. And adding on comp doctrine and they are just insufferable.
They will turn down godly women with Ph.D.’s to serve at my former church and to head teams (including kitchen clean-up teams), but they will choose a Megan’s List sex offender.
The pastors/elders actually had the nerve to tell me that a father in a church family had *the final say* over the sex offender touching his children and his *decision was final* and his wife would *have no say*.
My response: “Uhhh…no. Fathers AND mothers are required by law to protect their children. A mother can’t abdicate her responsibility to protect her children from danger and say that it was her husband’s responsibility. If harm comes to the children, the Mother can also be arrested and prosecuted for felony child abuse, if convicted serve time in prison, and Child Protective Services can take her children away and put them in the foster care system.”
These guys are idiots!
Velour wrote:
You get no disagreement from me! I am at ground zero for the guys. I am not that far from Capital Hills. There are two 9Marx churches in walking distance (one a good walk) from me. If, I were left with just 9 Marks or Acts 29 outfits, I would be done. And I would caution anyone against joining these groups. There is no love in 9Marx and Acts 29 is unbiblical.
Will M wrote:
I just understand the growing population of The Dones, believers who have *had it* with the institutionalized church including many older Christians.
You know, I am sorry I ever doubted the people who had good reason to not to want to step foot in a church.
I am about ready to start a Sunday morning bowling team.
Re: Josh’s whereabouts, Libby Anne at Love, Joy, Feminism posits that he may have been sent to IBLP headquarters in Oak Brook, not far away. Anna’s brother-in-law is one of the directors there, and she thinks maybe Pa Kellar wanted a hand in his “treatment.” It’s an interesting theory. She also has an excellent piece about the problems with RU treating sex addiction. It goes beyond Jack Schaap: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/08/breaking-leadership-of-josh-duggars-treatment-center-allegedly-involved-in-sex-abuse-coverup.html. In this article she seems confident that he is at RU, though, and she does her homework well.
Velour wrote:
This is classic; may I use it from now on?
Corbin wrote:
You may. Can’t say it was mine. I saw it somewhere here before…
@ Gram3:
” It may be that the overburden of authorities who are unaccountable breeds a sort of learned helplessness and a desire for someone to just tell us how to make it work.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
or an urge to move to Alaska. (Discovery is on quite a bit at our house)
Iceland or Greenland appeals to me, actually. or, I could be quite happy on that Montana ranch in The Horse Whisperer.
but my commitments (family, really) have me here in suburbia. so it’s a kind of a virtual Alaska/Iceland/Greenland for me. independence (in thinking & outlook) & a lot of imagination on my part.
@ refugee:
“…drives me up the wall when fellow homeschoolers spell it “grammer” or write “Walla!” instead of “Voila!” but then I know I make my share of typos, too.)”
+++++++++++++++++
I realize this doesn’t describe all homeschoolers, but i’m interested to know why this happens. Why are the standards so low? How do these things slip through the cracks?
it seems to me that any amount of adult reading would rectify this.
elastigirl wrote:
Honestly, it depends on your homeschoolers. I have taken college Latin with homeschoolers (elementary school-aged to high school, with one certifiable
genius in the bunch). Neither they nor their parents were slouches. Another homeschooling family lived on a boat. All five of their children later went to Harvard.
And then there are others who don’t really do a good job at it.
Re-reading the title question “How successful is Reformers Anonymous” my skepticism was activated. Mind you, not cynicism but skepticism. There is a place for a spiritual remedy for a spiritual problem but it isn’t clear if this is RU’s only treatment and if so is it the right treatment.
I dug around some and was unable to find third party evaluations of RU. If I were looking for treatment to recommend, there is little information disclosed by RU. What is their methodology, how is their success rate measured? What is their philosophy beyond moral teaching?
Rubbing shoulders with those in the field I found there is debate on treatments running a spectrum from spiritual to clinical. I can only gather that one treatment may be more valid than another, depending on the issue, but I definitely distrust a one treatment fits all. Will RU’s treatment honestly try to discover an underlying issue and then will they address it? Will going to RU be like going to the chiropractor for heart disease?
If the treatment only doubles down on the same training that JD received during upbringing, I’m not hopeful.
PS – selling apparel is CHEESY(™)
Bill M wrote:
Selling apparel is CHEESY(™)??????
Bill, I will have you know that the spirit of invention and clothing-making is alive and well here at The Wartburg Watch. Why as I type my TWW seamstress Nancy2 is slaving away in Kentucky making a new line of Hotel NeoCalifornia burqas for the big, big, big Church Discipline conference the NeoCal boyz will be having. I expect them to sell out swiftly as John Piper, Mark Dever, Jonathan Leeman, CJ Mahaney and their ILK will be taking them home for the women-folk.
For a *love offering*, as our blog hostesses Dee and Deb would say, we will also toss in some stockades or kindling. For an extra *love offering* we can give you a graduation certificate in TULIP.
More exciting products are in development to SUPPRESS the ENTIRE FAMILY!
Signed,
Velour, Vice President of
Product Development (Proud to be CHEESY(™))
at Shehad (pronoun She + Had, sounds like Jihad), Inc.
The NeoCals’ New ‘War on Women’
Bill M wrote:
The big question for me is, “Why is Josh in there?”
Does he really want to change? Did he go to squelch the negative publicity? Did big daddy JB make him go? Can we believe anything he says?
Velour wrote:
War? These NeoCals don’t know what they’re messin’ with. I crossed paths with a copperhead snake last night about sunset. Blew a good chunk of it’s head out with my little Ruger .22. My husband was with me ~~ he never took his pistol out of the holster. I taught my daughter to ” breathe fire”, too,
Nancy2 wrote:
I’m thinking that the Father-in-Law of whatever Duggar daughter is married (she’s tweeting his dire, $erious tone$ about Jo$h, $ounds like publicity to me to $ave the Duggar’$ Brand). I ain’t buying it. Too fi$hy.
Fir$t $he defend$ Jo$h and now thi$. $ure.
Velour wrote:
Fantastic! I’ll talk to the board of directors about getting you and your entire department a raise.
Nancy2 wrote:
Go MissNancy2!
Bill M wrote:
A raise? Uhm, these guys aren’t connected to the IMB, are there?
Bill M wrote:
I knew you were THE MAN for the job, Bill M.
Our plans are to do the NeoCal catalog shoot in Geneva, Switzerland, of our entire suppressive product Hotel NeoCalifornia product line. We wanted to give it an *authentic* feel of the life and times of John Calvin that the NeoCals are trying to create.
Respectfully submitted,
Velour
Nancy2 wrote:
Nancy2, he’s talking about a raise for you and me here at the NeoCal company.
You’re our official seamstress, remember? We know we aren’t really *deserving* of *raises* but Bill M is a man and he insists, and we are just mere women.
Oh, okay.
As long as we don’t have to give 10% of our raise to Lottie Moon offerings.
cookingwithdogs wrote:
It sure looks that way. One of their “principles” is:
“It is not possible to fight a fleshly temptation with fleshly weapons. II Corinthians 10:3-5, I John 4:4”
Nancy2 wrote:
Why that was *almost* submissive. Still…John Piper might faint at your tone.
Bill M wrote:
Bill, Tell the Board that we are developing a NeoCal Family Theme Park based on Calvin’s Geneva. Depressing details to follow…
Velour wrote:
If I ever meet John Piper face to face, “might” ain’t gonna be nowhere near good enough.
Imagine how much good could be done, & how much Josh Duggar could learn about why he is like he is if they sent him to a decent proper Psychiatrist or Clinical Psychologist. I could recommend several christian ones this side of the pond. Imagine the kind of change that understanding could promote. Sigh.
@ elastigirl:
The Bubble. This can happen anywhere of course – Christian school, some public school systems, etc, but home school has a bigger risk inherently.
I am completely homeschooled. Never went to college. Not even a diploma mill! There’s still a few words I’ll say out loud in public and get funny looks and laughs because I pronounced it in my head the wrong way originally while reading it, it stuck, and there was nobody to show me different until I vocalized it. We were incredibly isolated. In normal communities, you grow up with give and take and many individuals to cross paths with to keep yourself sharp(er). Not so for us as homeschooled folks. Our church was 30 people on a good day, and we’d go weeks sometimes seeing no one but immediate family and church people as kids.
The Bubble is real.
My mom made up her own curriculum with some borrowed pieces of other more official curriculums. In many ways it was a woefully inadequate indoctrination session (my gosh – history! =[ ), but we read constantly, and that’s of great benefit to me now in undoing the rest of the inadequacies.
That’s a story for another day.
RU is the conservative Baptist alternative to AA and its residence program is the latest iteration of Roloff ministries approach — which can be summed up as “ain’t nothin a lil hard work and Bible can’t cure.”
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
Yes, I realize that. Between parenting duties and the trauma of Josh’s betrayal, that’s what I meant when I said Anna wasn’t likely to fully enjoy the break from pregnancy.
Sorry I wasn’t clearer.
LT wrote:
As Mirele has pointed out earlier on this thread… “Just like Narconon, only CHRISTIAN™!”
Beakerj wrote:
I know that some people seem to be more prone to “misbehave” than others. But, I wonder how Josh would have turned out if he had been raised in a “normal” environment where he would have had to develop the social skills necessary to deal with people with a broad range of personalities and beliefs? What would have happened if he had touched some sassy, self_reliant girls inappropriately, and those girls had responded by putting Josh in a little physical pain? Would Josh have had any respect for women then?
I feel extremely sorry for Anna. My feeling is that because of the emphasis on purity in their sect, this is going to be devastating. When they emphasize that purity equals not even kissing someone before marriage, can you imagine what this must be like for her? It’s not just a betrayal, but it’s the loss of an ideal that is built up to be something with great meaning. Even in “normal” Christian circles, you learn that being Christian means following the best you can, but it does include failure along the way. Being perfect is so important in Gothard clans, that I wonder how she will cope. Her husband wasn’t perfect. Her marriage wasn’t perfect. I hope someone gets her to a normal counselor, not some Bil Gothard protege.
In my opinion the following three stories are bigger, more disappointing, and far more damaging than the Josh Duggar story. But then again I had never heard of The Duggars before the scandal.
1. Jimmy Epting’s infidelity. His wife’s actions from October until this very minute. The gutless handling of this by the school’s board.
2. R.C. Sprout Jr.’s “moment of weakness.” Surpassed by this disappointment was his statement. Hiding behind theological jargon did not fit the crime. To add to this debacle was Ligonier’s gutless handling of their prince. (Boy do I wish I could get the money back I’ve spent at Ligonier’ in another life.)
3. Tullian Tchividjian’s infidelity. This broke my heart. His gutless handling of his crisis turned my stomach. This one should gravely concern Christians of all theological stripes.
Disappointed yes. Defeated no. I press on. I hope you will also.
Apologies if this has already been posted somewhere.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/celebrity/jessa-seewald-publicly-sides-with-father-in-law-who-called-josh-duggar-a-pretender/ar-AAdSnTs
I just posted a comment on SBCVoices, “Don’t let your daughters breathe fire like Josh Duggar”, and it went straight through! It was not moderated! I really thought it would be deleted, like most comments made by women over there in comp land, especially since Moore is a NeoCal. Whoosh,whoosh,whoosh!
@ Steve:
Those stories are angering to me. Not necessarily that leaders sinned, but also how the stories have been treated by other Christians/leaders, how the individuals themselves responded, and how they’ve been handled by their parent companies (let’s call them what they are, shall we?).
I used to keep up with sports a lot. One of the things that always bugged me about athletes/coaches/etc was when they’d get caught doing something nefarious, there was the press conferences, damage control, admissions that weren’t admissions, apologies that weren’t apologies…. We all know what I’m talking about. Then it’s business as usual after that. Just weather the media storm and all is well.
Shouldn’t Christians–Christian LEADERS–look different when we fall? But noooo, we just tack on another layer of protection called Grace™, and get right back to what we were doing. Not to mention nobody seems torn about things UNTIL they’re forced to make it public. Nobody holds themselves accountable UNTIL they have to because everyone knows.
Shouldn’t our leaders be setting an example? Instead, all we get is the same BS the world gives us, just with Gospel™ branding. Resign for God’s sake! Don’t take time off! RESIGN! Go warm a darned pew like the rest of us, and go be a witness that way. Don’t give us this sham of repentance and grace and restoration (to the paycheck & position).
Tullian just needs his darned paycheck (I’m guessing it’s a paid position?)
RC Sproul Jr had no choice.
Epting don’t want his darned statue to come down.
How are we any different than the world? Somebody tell me.
GovPappy wrote:
Bunsen Honeydew wrote:
Though in that Purity Comp Quiverfull Culture, she doesn’t count.
She’s just a WOMAN.
All that’s needed is a vagina, a womb, and “She’s… Ovulating.”
Everything else is superfluous.
Beakerj wrote:
If they’re not Gothardite, they’re not CHRISTIAN(TM).
Q.E.D.
Steve wrote:
Yes! Those three are all supposedly Christian leaders who’ve taught many thousands (one already moved on from girlfriend, wife, and church to a great new job!) Young Duggar was put into the spotlight by the despicable actions of his parents. But he’s the one I saw on the cover of 3 different gossip mags at the grocery store yesterday.
@ Mara:
Unfortunately, there is no acknowledgement of the patriarchal dogma spawning,emotionally unhealthy families. Jim Bob and Michelle are still revered, respected. I get the feeling maybe Josh is getting labeled as the black sheep, so everyone else can maintain the white sheep image.
Mae wrote:
The more I think of this story (and I try not to, really) the more I can’t help but think of Mommy and Daddy Duggar as just evil.
@ Dave A A:
I agree and didn’t mean to imply that the Duggar story isn’t a significant one. I’m quite sure the Duggars are a bigger brand than Ligonier. The Duggars couldn’t disappoint me because I never had any expectations of them. The other 3 disappointed me personally.
@ GovPappy:
Couldn’t agree more.
@ GovPappy:
You’ve expressed my anger as well. And I think we can use the term “damned” in its biblical (TM) sense in regard to the paycheck and statue!
Velour wrote:
Don’t let my older sister get wind of this.
First off…may have been said already, but there is no such thing as a 90% recovery rate of addictions.
Those sort of claims are probably not verifiable, if not just an outright falsehood.
I’ve been close to a family member with an alcohol addiction. They attended a treatment center run by a Calvary Chapel that claimed 90% success.
What was apparent from the start, is that they did not take just anyone with an addiction. They only accepted people who were within a very tight criteria and they also would kick people out of the program-so to claim 90% was dubious.
Steve wrote:
Didn’t think you did! 🙂
Duggars are more significant to the world at large because– unreality TV stars.
I admit I was feeling unchristianly angry, bitter, unforgiving, and cynical yesterday buying my groceries. On top of Duggars Duggars everywhere, I was subjected to Mick Jagger on the loudspeakers “tryin’ to make some girl a-pregnant”. Fifty years ago, that was banned in Britain…. My unchristian feelings were a momentary lapse in judgment, for which grace and manifestations of mercy have swept away– did I mention I like long walks on the beach, just like Tullian?
doubtful wrote:
Again, just like RU and Scientology Narconon.
(Calvary Chapel… Why am I not surprised? Like the Trail of Blood Landmark Baptists that run RU, they’re completely invested in their brand as the Only True Heirs of the New Testament Church, the ONLY TRUE Christianity among all the Satanic Counterfeits; they have to maintain their Signs & Wonders brand; specifically, the better-than-those-Heathens success rate.)
i.e. They cherry-picked their sample to maximize their success rate, just like that famous Christain online dating site has been accused of doing.
Steve wrote:
But they don’t have the Instant *CELEBRITY* Name Recognition.
Dave A A wrote:
Actually, those emotions were probably more Christian than you think! As believers look at the world – both in and out of the church – we need to start challenging some things. “Judge not that you be not judged” has been misinterpreted by Hilary and Hollywood, so don’t believe what they say! The 21st century church has forgotten Paul’s exhortation to the early church, which is the same for us:
“Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?” (1 Corinthians 6:2-5).
We better start judging some things, before the world takes over the church! And, yes, the Duggar situation and rotten music blaring in your ear as you tried to shop are challenges to speak against that which is drawing America into moral chaos. If Christians don’t, who will?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
P.S. Every account I’ve read of Joan Crawford’s death states that she Died Cursing God. Literally. Her last words were a screaming fit of Cursing God when she realized a servant by her deathbed was actually praying for her. If Christians have the right dope about the afterlife, this does not bode well for her on J-Day.
Greaves wrote:
I ticked off an AA member here on a previous blog thread by mentioning some of the issues I have with AA. My brother was in AA for several years (don’t know if he’s still in it or not), but it’s a very victim-blaming establishment.
These 12 step programs cannot conceive that sometimes when bad stuff happens to a person it may not be that person’s fault at all, and they did not “play a role” in their own misfortune.
My sister is also very victim blaming, but she comes from it naturally, not via AA. So far as I know, though she was an alcoholic, she never went to AA, unlike our brother.
Nancy2 wrote:
He very well may have, but you know his patriarchal family and the pat Christians online would have told him to disregard them, because they weren’t being probably biblically deferential to a male.
Like I was just saying to Gram3 in another post yesterday, gender complementarians send mixed messages….
Some of them believe all women should be fully subservient to all or most or certain men, while even the lukewarm ones will say they don’t think a woman ‘should be a doormat, but they should not be fiercely independent, either’
– to quote one gender comp guy from a thread Lydia linked to at SBC Voices.
Really, now, Mr. Gender Comp, please delineate just how much a woman can be properly independent without being “too” or “fiercely” independent.
These gender comp guys base these views of women and womanly behavior primarily on their opinions and personal whims and then expect women to live up to them.
And it’s all arbitrary and varies from man to man, so a woman will be inadvertently running afoul of their Gender Role Talmuds anyway.
Max wrote:
Ok. I repent of my repentance……
This article http://reformedarsenal.com/2015/09/01/an-open-letter-to-the-south-florida-presbytery/
about the Tchividjian hiring is quite interesting. The blogger thinks he needs to be excommunicated and his new boss censured (of course, the new boss can just leave the PCA and join Sproul’s denomination). Then Pirate Radio guy Chris Rosebrough comes on in the comments and says it’s all slander– TT is just doing clerical work, not teaching or preaching, so it’s all OK, etc…
Steve wrote:
Yes, I believe the school lied. They said he left due to health reasons, when the actual reason was, he was caught in an extra marital affair. And this was a Christian university, I believe?
@ Nancy2:
I’m glad it went through, but don’t be surprised if they later remove it, or, you get ganged up by 100 gender comps.
Dave A A wrote:
I used to listen to Rosebrough quite a bit, haven’t in months. I agree with some of his positions on some stuff, but in some areas, he seems to have a blind spot or to play favorites (especially if the guys in question are Reformed in nature).
I do recall from previous shows Rosebrough did, he seems to like Tullian a lot, and he think Tullian’s theology is super duper.
Funny thing is, Rosebrough used to do social media posts and do podcasts lambasting “grace” preacher Joseph Prince.
I have watched enough J. Prince and used to watch Tullian every week (when Tullian had a show), and I’ve seen Tullian interviewed enough on TBN, to tell you that Tullian’s views on salvation, grace, and what all are about identical to J. Prince’s.
Yet Rosebrough calls out Prince as being a false teacher on grace and other subjects but gives Tullian a stamp of approval for the same stuff.
Also, Rosebrough is rather condescending against women in leadership.
It’s one thing to be a gender complementarian, but I would think if you host a weekly radio show as he does, you’d be more respectful on the topic, rather than use the intentionally mocking title of “Pastrix” for lady preachers while discussing them on your program.
Anyway, Rosebrough is a Fan Boy of Tullian’s and has been for the past couple of years or more, so I can’t say I’m surprised he’s sticking up for Tullian in the comments on some other site, or on his radio show.
Nancy2 wrote:
I noted that earlier and offered a reply, Nancy2 … so far, they are still there. Shortly after your post, “The Man” (Dave Miller) himself posted a comment which agrees with your perspective!
“Fully 50% of Christian men struggle with addiction to pornography as well 30% of pastors and Christian women.”
RU states 30% of pastors and Christian women struggle with addictions to pornography. Assuming these statistics are correct, why don’t the pastors just sign up with RU and get cured?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Yeah. I didn’t know what the Duggars were until recently. I’m still not sure I know. Same brand category as Kardashian??
@ Daisy:
“Christian”… Students get kicked out for breaking picayune rules while the president has an illicit affair with one of the school’s VP. “Christian.” (Quotation marks intentional.)
Josh confessed to being addicted to pornography. In light of his history, has an investigation been done to see if child porn was involved?
Daisy wrote:
I just checked: Max and the one and only DAVE MILLER both back my comment. I have a feeling it will stay up!
okrapod wrote:
I do think struggling is a reality in the Christian walk, but it is a daily struggle and it means that one is actually turning away from sin and resisting temptation. It doesn’t mean that one the person struggles and the next day they choose drugs, porn, adultery….(whatever the sin might be), and then the next day they don’t do these things, but he day after they do. That is just being a Yo Yo Christian and not really getting victory over one’s vices. In the world of substance abuse, an addict isn’t considered recovering until they have a substantial amount of time behind them where they haven’t gone back to using. That would be at least a few years under their belt. So, in light of the reality of the GENUINE struggle, leaving a facility after doing a certain amount of prescribed time to be clean and sober, or healed (whatever word one prefers) is only the BEGINNING of being on the road to recovery. For Josh Duggar, due to his particular proclivities, I think he has a long road to hoe.
okrapod wrote:
This last sentence jumped out at me due to something I recently read on Lori Alexander’s blog, “Always Learning.” It was a comment made by Ken, her husband. He said something to the effect that Josh might have difficulty finding employment in the future AND *he* suggested that when Josh is done with his treatment he write a book about what its like to be addicted to porn, and how to recover from it. Again, the easy suggestion to “write a book” in order to make money. Why not just get a regular job and work by the sweat of your brow? After all, these Complementarians/Patriarchists have no problem reminding his wife Anna of continuing to be a “keeper of the home” and to “submit” to Josh without a word so that he can be won back to the faith. It seems that working by the sweat of the brow is something these fellas have an aversion to. Nah….just write book and bring in the cash. Double standard for men and women it seems.
Daisy wrote:
Daisy, I come from the subculture that originated the word “fanboy”, and it is definitely NOT a complementary term. Usually the word is prefaced with “drooling” or some sort of cussword.
Among railroad buffs, the equivalent word is “foamer” (as in foaming at the mouth).
Darlene wrote:
Yet there are Christianese devotionals that teach Yo Yo Christianity.
The one I’m thinking of is called “The Calvary Road” and has a cover illo of a tiny figure on his knees, leaning forward with face in both hands in a pose of total despair before the bottom of the Cross at Calvary. It taught that even after being Saved, any SIN whatsoever breaks your connection with Christ until you repent of it. And defined pretty much anything as SIN – even a fleeting thought that wasn’t Godly. The result is a whiplash of sin-sniffing and face-in-both-hands repentance every time you slip up even at a fleeting thought. Constantly whipsawing back and forth, maybe several times a minute.
I can attest from experience That Way Lies Madness.
(A couple years ago while visiting the East Coast, I was checking the remnant bin at that used bookstore in Dillsburg with one of my writing partners — the burned out preacher. I recognized Calvary Road, mentioned my experience with it, and he immediately pronounced it “BAD Theology”.)
Steve wrote:
Pretty much.
Celebrity = Famous for Being Famous. (In the Kardashians’ case, Daddy was one of the lawyers on OJ Simpson’s Dream Team. That’s it.)
Greaves wrote:
Complete with Lame Christianese Knockoff Name.
okrapod wrote:
Yeah, and Josh could write his *Tell All* book and generate a considerable cash flow rather than find a REAL job. And now I’m thinkin’ of George Thorogood: Get a haircut and get real job! Well, Josh has half of that right. Now for the harder part of actually working a real job!
refugee wrote:
Yep, because “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”
– Animal Farm
Velour wrote:
Velour, that’s because he *repented* and was cured.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yep, I know. 🙂
When I used “Fan Boy” above, it denotes that Rosebrough’s willing to overlook flaws in Tullian he would never overlook or excuse in Steve Furtick and other mega- (especially evangelical) preachers. But Tullian gets kid glove treatment and special pleading.
Bill M wrote:
I think the problem might be that if or when Josh Duggar has completed treatment at some facility, there will be those pushing him to write a book. That would be so wrong on many accounts. It would be better for him to live outside of the public eye, working a regular job and being accountable to someone of rapport regarding his addictions. I know, I know, I’m harping on this book writing scheme, because I think this is what celeb Christians do. It becomes so tiring after awhile.
Daisy wrote:
Maybe it has something to do with the Calvinists sticking together. It seems a few well-known Calvinists weren’t big on extending grace to Ergun Caner regarding his supposed Muslim background. Some were downright nasty toward him. Then again, Caner isn’t a Calvinist. But, commit adultery while being a Neo-Cal pastor and you’ll hear something to the effect of: Who are you to judge him? You are a sinner too. He repented and God has forgiven him.
Gram3 wrote:
Gram3, as a former public high school teacher and working in the elementary and middle schools as well, what you said is spot on! Some teachers have compared the situation in public school to the mafia, the highest in the rung being the educational bureaucrats, with the administrators carrying out their orders, and the teachers being at the lowest rung of the ladder. One thing they fear are law suits from parents who think that little Johnny or Susie has been mistreated because they dressed like a classless rapper or a hooker to school and were told such an outfit is unacceptable. Or they came to school stoned or drunk and were told to leave the classroom, and supposedly their rights to a free, public education were violated. I once heard a teacher in the lunch room exclaim “The inmates are running the prison here!” LoL! It was a toxic environment that was systemic to its core.
Perhaps I should have said, “It was a toxic environment whose toxicity was systemic to its core.” I only proofread after I post. Ugh.
Darlene wrote:
Which is why according to insurance companies like Church Mutual (the largest insurer of churches in the U.S.), attorneys like Richard Hammer at Church Law & Tax, and Boz over at G.R.A.C.E. (dealing with abuse in the Christian church),
Child Sexual Abuse is the No. 1 reason that churches get sued every single year!
There is an epidemic of child sexual abuse in the conservative church according to the experts, one that exceeds that of the Catholic Church.
To lie to members? To lie to parents? To not protect children? And this is supposed to be “ok” with Jesus?
Daisy wrote:
If doing chores and laundry is a cure for sexual addiction, then Josh should relieve Anna of her duties and she and the children should be housed in a separate dwelling that is comparable in price to the RU facility.
Daisy wrote:
Like this from his new boss, Kevin Labby:
“The position offered to Tullian is a non-ordained, support position. Recognizing his deposition from office, it does not involve any functions unique to the office of elder in general or teaching elder in particular. It provides him a community of grace in which to work and worship; the means to provide for his family; and an opportunity to display his repentance before the body of Christ. For these reasons, we are overjoyed and eager to welcome him into our church family.”
And give him a job as “director of ministry”, which is nothing like being a biblical “overseer” or a biblical “minister”.
So he can provide for his family (not his wife– as of now, she never existed, because she done him wrong)–what!!?? Is the guy flat broke, that he can’t afford a few months off to go surfing and watch some football? Grandpa can’t lend him a couple thousand to tide him over? Or, if he’s really strapped for cash, he could greet folks at the local Walmart and be a pew-potato on Sundays for awhile? Of course not! The Willow Creek pew potatoes are obligated to support him as he directs them (not as an Elder, of course).
Daisy wrote:
In my view, inclusion is just another PC attempt to ignore real problems and to ignore what is actually a beneficial learning environment for all students. Their more concerned about social interaction than students getting a good education.
@ Dave A A:
Too funny/sad/disgusting. “It provides him an opportunity… to display his repentance…” How will this be accomplished?
Steve wrote:
By Out-Piousing everyone else, of course.
Dave A A wrote:
Any way to avoid getting a Real Job….you know, the kind that Genesis speaks of: by the SWEAT of your brow.” Ah….but that doesn’t apply to the males in Comp/Pat Land.
Daisy wrote:
RANK HATH ITS PRIVILEGES.
Darlene wrote:
“These N Calvinists said one to another:
‘Elect unto Elect o’er the world is Brother’…”
— Filk of Chesterton’s “Ballad of the Battle of Gibeon”
Darlene wrote:
Because what dangles between their legs makes them Highborn Royalty.
And Lowborns exist only to Serve The Highborn.
Darlene wrote:
And remember what species Orwell ethnically-typecast as the More Equal.
Some simple advice to all those Celeb Christians who have scandalized the Christian faith through their foolish actions:
“Get a real job
Get a real job
Why don’t you get a real job?
Get a real job
Why don’t you get a real job?”
– George Thorogood
@ Darlene:
This would fix most of the problems we keep reading about.
Max wrote:
The scripture you quoted speaks of judging “between our brethren.” I don’t see that scripture leeking over to judging the world we live in.
Gram3 wrote:
“The female voice is offensive to God, I suppose.”
Gram3, that is MOST female voices. But his wife can post articles on his blog that MEN read and that’s ok. As HUG would say: Rank Hath Its Privileges.
@ Max:
I had an elder quote the following scripture to me when I was asking him about some issues between elders. I wondered why he and other elders did not bring the issues to the body as suggested in Corinthians 6. He responded with:
“I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God. – 1 Corinthians 4:3-5” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians4:3-5&version=NIV
I stopped communicating at that point. It was fruitless.
Darlene wrote:
Because what real job would pay this well for doing so little work with such little accountability and with such great perks, including off-the-book perks, and the continuing adoration of people? The pastors who are working hard and ministering as the Good Shepherd does are not the ones who are looking for the book deals and the conference gigs or writing the blog posts. I have to believe that the real servants are just as disgusted, if not more so, than the rest of us.
If someone wants to try and address their own issues with addiction, they need to do so through professional mental healthcare professionals, who are educated, trained, and licensed to guide clients through the complex process of untangling the myriad factors (physiological, psychological, spiritual) that lay behind the presenting addiction.
In my view, it is sinful for anyone claiming to a Christian to deprive a fellow Christian from professional care by peddling the modern day snake oil of “pray it away.” Since when did evangelicals become Christian Scientists?!
Darlene wrote:
A book written by Josh Duggar wouldn’t be worth the paper he wrote it on *unless* he completed a legitimate program and had been clean for 10 years – IMNSHO.
Darlene wrote:
I believe that falls under Piper’s exceptions for non-personal and non-directive female speech. 🙂
What she said was really good. I wish she had said more about the culture of disrespect for females in the church, no matter how pretty the wrapper is. My daughters get no respect in the church and my sons get no respect in some secular arenas. I pray it will be different for my grandchildren.
Darlene wrote:
Yep. I don’t get it.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Bingo!
Bunsen Honeydew wrote:
Here’s an article that states Anna Duggar partly blames herself for Josh’s indiscretions.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3205403/Anna-Duggar-partially-blames-husband-Josh-cheating-using-porn-mother-law-Michelle-s-marriage-tip-NOT-deny-spouse-sex.html
@ Dave A A:
Ugh.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
That, and having biased friends and the “right” theology.
Darlene wrote:
Even funnier (and if this is the blog post I’m thinking of), Challies’ wife even barked orders at Christian men in the post. She was telling them what to do and how to behave.
I don’t know if gender comps would go into special pleading mode on that to say “but she posted that with her husband’s approval and under his male covering.”
In the end scheme of things, you have a Christian woman dictating commands to single and married Christian men (in a blog post), which is something women aren’t supposed to do in complementarianism.
I posted over at SBCVoices as well. Not sure if they will post my comment. This is what I said:
“At the root of the problem, as others are stating, is Patriarchy itself. Men are taught that women are created to serve THEM by giving them sex and having babies. Well, Anna fulfilled her end of the bargain. Josh, on the other hand, knows even now that Anna will just be milk-toast, looking to win him over in silence and seeing this as her cross to bear. She won’t, indeed she DARE NOT, insist he be faithful to her from this point on or else she is outta there. Nope, Josh knows with all certainty that he can continue indulging in his sexual proclivities AND also have a submissive wife at his beck and call. This is the underbelly of Patriarchy, folks. It treats women as second class citizens, whose sole purpose in life is to stand by her man no matter what. Tammy Wynette would be proud!”
Darlene wrote:
You should write a book on it. Some of the most influential books I’ve read were short, all those those I tried to wade through and gave up on were not. The author may have an interesting subject or point of view but will then drag it out to book length, emphasis on drag. You could title your book, “The Unbook, Why You Should Not Write a Book”.
Joe2 wrote:
67.8% of statistics are made up
Jim Bob acted like a horndog on TV and in front of his kids. There are so many references to the deed that got him all those kids, and that’s on the show. What kind of talk occurs in the privacy of their home? When you combine all the talking about s-x with girls wearing ankle length skirts and wetsuits for swimming, you may create some very odd obsessions in a young man. Add in that Josh was taught he was special as firstborn but ignored as his mom had all those babies in quick succession, and that may bring trouble. What a shame that true professionals were not called in before and still will not be brought into this.
Nancy2 wrote:
Nancy,
SBC Voices always puts a first post in moderation. The second one usually goes straight through. Dave will not normally moderate you unless you post a extra-nasty comment, and he will probably warn you before he moderates you.
If you ever have a problem with SBC Voices, Dave has an e-mail for your concerns. It’s davemillerisajerk@hotmail.com (yes, that’s real).
Bunsen Honeydew wrote:
And was Josh sexually abused and if ‘yes’ by whom?
Apparently a lot of people who have left that church and group that the Duggars go to have said there is a great deal of sexual abuse in those families.
@ Velour:
Thanks for that link – wow, sadists and psychopaths look for the most empathetic to prey on – never thought of it that way, very interesting point. Also, likability doesn’t equal trustworthiness – isn’t that so true in 99% of the issues of church abuse we discuss here.
I think if Julie McMahon and her ex (what was his name again) and the famous christians who jumped to his defence, blindly believing everything he said. Now the Duggars and the cover-up of the molestation, the suing of law enforcement authorities and not being able to believe who their son really is. Also, all the e-mails jumping to Driscoll’s defence time and again after he said more and more outrageous things and hurt more and more people. “But he’s such a good preacher” was always the argument. “Ha” according to Jesus he was the sheep in wolf’s clothing who couldn’t not be both “a good teacher” and “acting sociopathic”, but likability trumped behaviour over and over again. I have no idea what Piper is like, but he sure supports some pretty messed up people – Doug Wilson, Driscoll, and so on.
Steve wrote:
He’d have had the opportunity, had they only NOT “provided” it. Speaking of which, unless I’ve missed something, you have to give Doug Phillips his due for (apparently) not jumping right back into ministry after his “inappropriate relationship”, as TT called it.
Bridget wrote:
And…
Go to all of the people that you’ve [pastor/elder] harmed and apologize to all of them. And mean it! Fix the damage you have done.
Darlene wrote:
A splendid answer, Darlene!
Darlene wrote:
A commenter on the Reformed Arsenal site (I usually don’t quote commenters) says:
“Really, guys……the man has to eat and support himself as well as his family. And you would deny him the ability to hold what is blazingly apparent as an administrative, advisory position in a church? I find that, frankly, shocking.”
Shocking! I tell you!! I seriously doubt the dude/bro ever needs to work another day in his life– how much were the last sheeple paying him? Some of which right while he was indiscretioning and several months between then and his resignation– not to mention any severance package. OK– its my unchristian emotions again. I’m just kicking him while he’s down, like Arsenal did, according to the commenter.
Steve wrote:
Ya noticed that the rules don’t apply to *the elite*: not at church and not a the Christian colleges. Only, as H.U.G. would say, to the pewpeons.
Bill M wrote:
Perhaps you’d like to place your Christmas order early for your sister of a lovely Hotel NeoCalifornia burqa? (My business associate, Nancy2, can sew one right there in Kentucky for your sister.) If you would like your sister’s name embroidered, that will cost you an extra *love offering*, as our hostesses Dee and Deb put it.
I am working on *Submissive Charm School* lessons for women who *need a ‘lil’ work* in this area. That will cost an *additional love offering*.
@ Dave A A:
This is then unthinking entitlement mentality that produces trainwrecks in the ministry. For these guys, it is beyond imagining that they might have to lower themselves to accept a real job out of the limelight. They are entitled to live off of the lesser people who work at real jobs and *then* come to church on Sundays and other times and *volunteer* their services in their *free* time.
Velour wrote:
Not to mention, in Kentucky, a girl can get a license to carry concealed. A burqa would be great for concealing more than just the face and body!
Nancy2 wrote:
Laughed out loud! This is so you. I just love it!
Nancy2 wrote:
ROFL.
Debi Calvet wrote:
It really happened. Nice, clean shot to the head, no damage to the body. Here’s the kicker: A nice man at our church saves snake skins. He gives them to a friend of his who puts the skins over archery bows and sells the bows. My husband skinned my copperhead and he’s taking the skin to the man at church Sunday morning. I can’t wait to see the reactions from the female subjugators.
@ Nancy2:
31 inches long~ that’s decent sized for a copperhead.
A couple of years ago on the way back from a big day on the North Mullardoch Munros, I walked past an adder that was curled up in the middle of the land-rover track in Glen Cannich.
I didn’t have any kind of weapon, but adders are small, only mildly venomous, and not aggressive; so we both got on with our lives. Snakes are comparatively rare in Blighty and this remains the only time I’ve seen one in the wild.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I wish that were so where I live. Thankfully, not many copperheads or rattlers, but lots of garter snakes, water snakes. Adders here in New England are called,the Eastern Hognose Snake. ( or puffers )They will often play dead unless harassed. If harassed it’ll rear up, puff it’s neck, hiss and strike. Scary, but harmless.
Mae wrote:
Here in Kentucky, we have all of the kinds of snakes you listed, plus a few – green snakes, black racers, chicken snakes…. I will leave the harmless ones alone, as long as they don’t get too close to the house or the chicken house. After all, they do eat mice. We live in a rocky area (cliffs, bluffs nearby) and copperheads and rattlesnakes love rocky areas so we have an abundance of them. One of my cousins killed two rattlesnakes a few days ago. In July, one of my dogs was bitten on the snout in the gum line by a copperhead (at the corner of our carport, no less!). The severe swelling restricted the dogs ability to breath, eat, and drink, so we had to pay the vet $107 for that one. Rattlesnakes and cottonmouths are deadly, but copperheads usually only make you wish you were dead for a few days.
Serpents be warned: Eve has a pistol, now. I kinda wish the original Eve had had a pistol.
@ Nancy2:
Totally agree on taking out the poisonous snakes.
I have to confess, we have killed more then a few garter snakes. We have heavily wooded property, with a small pasture. Don’t mind ( too much ) sharing turf, but when they become too abundant (as in sunning themselves on my back steps ) they are dispatched to snake heaven. I used to have a dog who would kill them, now, I have to do it…ick.
Death may not be an excuse!
I know I linked this one on the last thread, but it was OT and didn’t get any traction.
9Marx article excerpting a Schmucker book: http://9marks.org/answer/how-can-i-lead-my-church-clean-its-membership-rolls/
“Begin removing non–attending members, beginning with the easiest and moving to the hardest. From easiest to hardest…
Members who are dead. Put the names of any dead members of your church before the congregation with a motion to remove them from membership in the following business meeting. This gives the congregation some time to think about what they’re doing and why.”
Just out of curiosity, what would happen if the congregation voted down the motion to remove dead members?
The dead members would be stuck in hotel calvinfornia!
@ Dave A A:
Oh oh it’s still off topic– reposting on Leeman thread!
Nancy2 wrote:
Please share! I’d love to read the story.
Nancy2 wrote:
You could Concealed Carry an AK-47 under a burqa!
(Though an M-14 or SVD wouldn’t fit…)
Dave A A wrote:
Maybe they could play pinochle with all the dead voters in Chicago stuck on the Democratic Party rolls!
Darlene wrote:
Could any Magdalene Laundries survivor weigh in on that one?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Except those poor women did nothing except to give birth out of wedlock.
I am now 71 years old. I am so thankful that one of the things I carried away from confirmation classes as a jr. hi. Lutheran kid was all about the reformation and how with Jesus we didn’t need to go through rig a ma roll nor the church heirarchy nor a priest nor any other human being but now had access to God because of what Christ did for us on the cross. Our class had been admonished not to join any cult, political group etc etc that would have us be blind followers or put our brains out to lunch but to study God’s word and know for ourselves what the Bible had to say (nice to have it written in the vernacular). All of that has helped me sidestep so much of the craziness posing as gospel and false teachings that have infiltrated the church. Thank you Jesus
People must really have to scream down the Holy Spirits warnings to stay in some of the situations and churches they do and if you ask me that’s kinky all by itself.
original mitch wrote:
That is completely wrong. I have a cousin who was addicted to alcohol from her young teen years until her late forties until she entered Teen Challenge where she was saved and then discipled for a year. It completely turned her life around. That was seven years ago and she’s a help, a blessing, and an example to her church, mother, children, grandchildren, and extended family. She’s not in any kind of 12-step program – just walking with the Lord. I also have a close friend whose son’s life was completely revolutionized by the discipling he received in Teen Challenge. He was a drug addict who was into witchcraft. His parents had to call the police on him twice for violence toward his mother and brother and was incarcerated in reform school for a time. For many years now he’s been clean and sober, married, with a full-time job and has a great relationship with his family. The power of God and His living word is infinitely greater than man’s philosophies.
Dave A A wrote:
I actually did see this and put this on FB. Thought it was pretty funny. Got a few “likes.” Told it to my hubby; he thought it was pretty funny too.
Like your comment about what if the congregation voted down the motion to remove dead members.
I’m not sure why the congregation would have to vote to remove dead members; let alone need some time to think about it!
But don’t think all Calvinist pastors / churches are like that. The ones who are not into the 9Marks / Acts29 and the like are just regular pastors / churches. Even the ones who are part of the SBC. 😉
Ken P. wrote:
I checked today. My comment has been removed.
Nancy2 wrote:
Not “removed”, doubleplusunperson nancy.
As of today, It Never Existed.
Lori Baldwin wrote:
Following Christian-prescribed approaches to things I dealt with, such as depression, low self esteem, and anxiety never helped me.
In those cases, “man’s philosophies” helped me. The books and blogs I consulted by Non-Christians (including psychologists) were of immense help to me.
I had spent years prior Bible reading, prayer, asking God to heal me, etc, and it didn’t help at all.
I did find a few Christian therapists whose books or blog pages were similar to the content of the Non-Christians, showing that very few Christians understand how to deal with some of life’s problems.
Sometimes how the Bible is interpreted by Christians to those who have depression, or some other problem, keeps people trapped in that problem for years and years.
The Bible and the Christian faith can hurt people, not help them.
I would suggest to any Christian reading this who is undergoing some kind of problem – abuse in marriage, depression, whatever it may be – please consider turning to Non-Christian sources of information for help.
Do not rely only or primarily on faith, God, Bible reading.
Often, Non-Christians are interested in helping you get over and through whatever pain you’re in, where-as a lot of Christians want to do nothing but keep you stuck in the pain.
Christians will ask you to consider that it’s your personal sin that brought on the depression or abuse (even though it’s not), and ask you to do the same methods over and over that never bring about result or change (ie, Bible reading, prayer).
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results. If you’ve been using faith or Bible reading for years and are still having the same problem, consider a new approach to the problem.
God sometimes works through “non-spiritual means,” and sometimes through Non-Christians.
Duggar Feuds Causing Net Worth Issues? Why Fighting After Josh Duggar Scandals Damaged Jim Bob and Michelle’s Brand
http://www.hollywoodtake.com/duggar-feuds-causing-net-worth-issues-why-fighting-after-josh-duggar-scandals-damaged-jim-97976