My trust in God flows out of the experience of his loving me, day in and day out, whether the day is stormy or fair, whether I'm sick or in good health, whether I'm in a state of grace or disgrace. He comes to me where I live and loves me as I am. Brennan Manning link
Over the last two weeks I have been in discussions with an individual whose family has been both harshly and unfairly disciplined by a church which is a member of a group of churches which stress church membership and discipline. We hope to tell this story in the near future and expect it to get a similar response to the story about The Village Church. The mother in this story said something quite profound.
I joined this church years ago when they said that they stressed grace in the church. What I didn't understand at the time, was they meant they stressed the doctrines of grace and not the grace I was looking for.
She said that those doctrines led to an atmosphere of legalism that reminded her of the shepherding movement. At this point I cannot tell the story but you will understand when you eventually hear it. One part of the story led me to tears and I could barely speak. The abuse and pain in this situation demonstrates what can happen when grace is not part of the actions and spirit of the church.
Parents should never skip church for a kid's sports game.
I once heard a stern lecture from a pastor about attending church on Sundays. He berated the parents who skipped church to attend the sports tournaments of their kids. He was the father of tiny children. In his authoritative style he told parents to "make their leagues" stop Sunday games. He said that he would do so when his son started playing sports. He claimed that being church on Sundays was the number one priority and that his sermon was the center of the church's worship.
Most experienced parents understand how certain sports can interfere on Sundays and there is not a blasted thing one can do about it except to pull the kid out of that sport. Most parents will not do that. That pastor will learn that lesson soon enough.
The Gospel Coalition has a plethora of articles on not skipping church like this one from Kevin De Young, The Scandal of the Semi-Churched.
4. Are you willing to make sacrifices to gather with God’s people for worship every Sunday? “But you don’t expect me to cancel my plans for Saturday night, do you? I can’t possibly rearrange my work schedule. This job requires me to work every Sunday–I’d have to get a new job if I wanted to be regular at church. Sundays are my day to rewind. I won’t get all the yard work done if I go to church every week. My kids won’t be able to play soccer if we don’t go to Sunday games. If my homework is going to be done by Sunday, I won’t be able to chill out Friday night and all day Saturday. Surely God wouldn’t want me to sacrifice too much just so I can show up at church!” Not exactly the way of the cross, is it?
He even suggests that missing church might indicate that you are not even a Christian!
The sermon is the pivotal point of the worship service.
In conclusion, then, the reason that preaching is so prominent in worship is that worship is not just understanding but also feeling. It is not just seeing God, but also savoring God. It is not just the response of the mind, but also of the heart. Therefore God has ordained that the form his Word should take in corporate worship is not just explanation to the mind and not just stimulation to the heart. Rather the Word of God is to come teaching the mind and reaching the heart; showing the truth of Christ and savoring the glory of Christ; expositing the Word of God and exulting in the God of the Word.
That is what preaching is. And that is why it is so prominent in worship. It is not a mere work of man. It is a gift and work of the Holy Spirit. And therefore it happens most and best where a people are praying and spiritually prepared for it. That is what we will talk about next week.
In Sermon Centric Worship, Austin McCann said:
Everything in the worship service should be centered around the sermon. Nothing should be more important than the sermon. The sermon is where the Holy Spirit convicts, challenges, and changes the hearts of the listeners through God’s inspired Word.
…3. Preaching is the designated means of Gospel communication. I firmly believe every Christian should share the Gospel verbally in their day-to-day life, but the Gospel is primarily shared through proclamation of God’s Word .
…When we hear preaching from God’s Word we hear God speaking to us. We give God ourselves for His glory and He reveals Himself to us through preaching of the Word for His own glory as well.
He closed with the following:
I fear that many churches are putting more emphasis on other parts, and may I say good parts, of the worship service other than preaching. God has given me a huge desire to preach and I believe preaching is something we need to restore in many of our churches. Matt Chandler once said, “The pulpit drives the church.” I fear that many churches are being driven by emotion, creative worship services, music, and so much more other than preaching. This starts with the pastors. I urge you pastors, spend most of your time in the week studying God’s Word and preparing the message God has given you. Lead the way pastors, preach God’s Word faithfully and keep it central in your worship services.
A pastor who gets grace.
Attendance in church
I heard a sermon that caused me to really want to listen. I was attending a new church which has a liturgical bent. In a short, 10 minute sermon, I heard him offer the gift of grace to the weary people sitting in church. He was focusing on "Remembering the Lords Day." I remember thinking, "Here it comes. You are a bad Christian if you are not in church."
Instead he offered grace to the people. He said that he understood it when families had to go to the soccer games for their children on Sundays. He had done it himself. He also commiserated with folks who are working to put bread on the table and are so exhausted on a Sunday that they sleep in. He remarked that this is one of the reasons that they decided to provide a Saturday service.
He stressed that coming to church and gathering with the folks is important. However, when it cannot be done, then everyone should take some time out(a few hours) during the week and meditate on Scripture, pray, listen to a sermon on line or just sit quietly and listen for God. He said that such a practice would provide strength to face the trials of life.
I remember smiling, thinking about the rigidity of many evangelical church groups on church attendance. But he had even more to say.
The sermon is not the most important part of the worship service.
He told the folks to pay careful attention to what he was about to say. In a truly humble moment, he grinned while saying that he was sure that some might find his sermons boring. He then said, "That's alright." He stressed that the worship service has many aspects to it. Some might find the time of prayer meaningful. Others might be drawn into the Scripture readings or the music. A few might be heartened by repeating The Apostles Creed. Of course, there is always the sacrament of the Lord's Supper which is celebrated each meeting.
Imagine that! A pastor who didn't make himself the center of worship. I felt as though a weight of guilt had been lifted off my shoulders. I tell you this to give you hope that there are those pastors and leaders out there who are not consumed with their own importance.
Have you ever had these issues with a small group?
- It is a mandatory part of joining the church.
- The leader is appointed by the pastors and people are assigned to the group.
- You are told to confess your sins to one another/discipline one another, etc. and you barely know one another.
- You are told that this group is going to be a close knit group of people "doing life together" but the membership is always in flux.
- The group must read a book or review a sermon as mandated by the "leader of all small groups."
- The church has the prerogative to split up the group at will.
- What is shared in the group is shared with the pastors/leaders.
Did you know that you and some friends can start your own small group and you do not need the permission of your pastor to do so? Let me tell you about the small group that I have been in for 14 years.
A group of us in a Sunday school class decided we wanted to start a small group to meet twice a month. We didn't ask permission. We just did it. We opened it up to whoever wanted to join us. We meet on Saturday nights at the home of our unofficial small group leader. Although everyone is willing to have the small group come to their house, it just has worked out that way.
We all subsequently left the church in which we met each other and began attending different churches. During this time, a few more people joined in with us. We are not a closed group. We study the Bible or a book and have even watched a movie(Luther) together. We celebrate holidays together and have done a Passover dinner as a group.
We have shared tragedy together when the husband of one of our members passed away from cancer. All of us have lost elderly family members or have had hospitalizations. I remember waking up from an operation and seeing about 5 women jammed into my hospital room, shooting the breeze! We bring food to one another and the women celebrate each other's birthdays. We have attended our children's weddings, prayed for jobs and finances, shared pain and heartache in our families and some of us stood up to a church which mishandled a pedophile situation.
We have a white elephant exchange each Christmas and it can get pretty rowdy. We have one framed picture of the bris of Jesus. He is surrounded by people dressed in Renaissance clothing. It is terribly tacky. Each year, it is hidden in the white elephant presents in terribly clever ways. The family who wins (or loses depending on your perspective)must hold it for a year and bring it back the next exchange. That family signs their names on the back and date it. It is fun to see it again and sometimes it is a bit poignant as we read the name of our friend who passed away.
We have doctrinal differences. There is a Calvinist, Arminians, and some who are not sure. We differ on baptism, the interpretation of some passages of the Bible, etc. But we ponder it through together. We are all very different people but all of us are committed to the idea of such a group.
We have not needed a pastor in all of those years to tell us what to do, think, or pray. We just hang in there with one another. We offer the gift of forbearance, grace and love that has lasted through the years.
I tell you this for one reason. Find a group to hang with. You do not need to do it through the church. In many instances churches mess it up by attempting to impose their agendas or "formats" that may not fit your group. Find a person who will make sure it happens each time you meet. Get together if there are only 3 of you-don't cancel. Find someone who likes to remember birthdays, etc. and remember the fun things.
Stick it out through the years. I can tell you that it is worth it. I know there are some people out there that would run to my aid if anything happened. They pray for me (and all of you, by the way.)
I look at our group a bit like the many varieties of Bush's Baked Beans. We are different yet the same. And, remember, there are no "rules" that say you must be under the authority of a pastor to have a small group which sticks together.
numo wrote:
What particularly do you find important about the context? Do you mean that it was what was presented as Reformational to a wide group of peeps? Or that it assumed to be the one&only way to do sermons properly, as contrasted with what the “students” came from and compared to the Catholicism around them?
@ Gram3:
Oh yes, Gram3, I commented at 4:23pm. It was hung up for a while but now has been released into the wild.
@ Patrice:
Nope, sorry, at 4:20pm. arg
Patrice wrote:
For one, in the democratic republic the entire group is able to express their opinion and vote their conscience. And, even if the outcome of the group consensus is different than the individual, the individual is not supposed to be abused or compromised to the group. BTW, I think we still see this happen, even in our governmental environment, and on both sides of the political spectrum.
@ Patrice:
None of tjose things – more like Ufo is the Schaeffers’ SIL, he is nothing if not thorough (in the German dvholarly tradition), and i hour plus seemed to be a given.
In other words, i think he would have bern better off actually lecturing, because his approach didn’t work for sermons. He’s a nice guy, but not cut out for preaching.
@ numo:
Udo. I feel badly when i get typos in proper names…
Maybe he was brand-new to preaching when i heard him, too, or didn’t do it much.
Patrice wrote:
Yes. This is a small form of collectivism. But the individual has a choice to join or not. No force is involved. No one looks down upon them if they do not join. The biggest thing is that the group decides how the business will work, not one or two at the top. The American church is actually conforming too much to America’s corporate structure where too many individuals are left out of the decision making process. This plays into the hands of greedy individuals. In the end, even in our capitalist culture, the man at the top must have a change of heart about his greed, as does everyone down the chain, so that the chain is not so strung out and a rusted mess at the bottom.
@ Bridget:
It seems to me that individualism has come to mean “I can do what I want at the expense of everyone.” I don’t think that was the intent. It is one of the reasons our government stepped in to regulate monopolies. But it seems to me like we are getting to that place again.
I think this comment thread has gotten way off base. I have been dealing with some issues off line and haven’t been able to check in.
I put an open discussion page on this blog for just this purpose. When the conversation revolves around a few people, it often shuts down conversation by others. We have had a couple of people leave the blog comments because of the strident nature of the conversation between a few people.
If it doesn’t stop, i will shut down comments on this thread.
@ Bridget:
@ Bridget:
Thanks, Bridget. We aren’t at all far from each other, I felt that way and now understand why. Appreciate it.
@ dee:
Sorry about off-topic, Dee. Will move to open discussion if we need to continue discussion about collectivism.
@ dee:
Thank you, Dee, and understood.
I have a great desl of sympathy with those who have left.
Patrice wrote:
I agree about people not doing what we should. As I often say, we are economic creatures after the Fall and we want to privatize the benefits and socialize the costs. Utopian plans are utopian fantasies as long as the New Creation is still not yet, IMO. I often say that a chastened capitalism–not corporatism!!!–is something like what a Christian economy would look like. I do not think that socialism will work because we are economic creatures. That’s why I like incentives and disincentives. What those should look like is another discussion. 🙂
@ Patrice:
And the church should reflect the Kingdom with a “one another” ethic and structure, IMO. That doesn’t leave much room for elitism, but ISTM that it creeps in behind things that sound good. And pretty soon we have another kind of legalism, just one that happens to appeal to “our kind” of people. Thanks for making me think today…
Gram3 wrote:
Yes, in the Kingdom of God down is up, first is last, and the hand doesn’t say to the foot, ‘I don’t need you’. We are peers and sisters/brothers and children of God. The wonder of that, if we could grasp it, would melt away many of our dislikes of each other. And of ourselves, too, for those of us who struggle to feel worthwhile (and that is likely most).
May the Kingdom that is already here&now, grow clean and clear among us. Thanks again, Gram3.
@ numo:
I was not trying to be mean or cruel, it was just a matter of fact statement.
I was just letting you know that my previous comment about denominations being named after men was not directed at you personally, as I did not even remember who the person was who was upset the day before about that.
I was talking about a topic, not a particular person (poster here). I was not trying to personally offend anyone here, and not anyone in particular.
Bridget wrote:
The other day Numo posted that she needed a break and wanted to look at cute little animals and things, was coping with some loss in her life, etc. I think it’s a good time for Numo to do that – take a break – since the comments toward the rest of us are getting quite odd.
numo wrote:
I am getting quite concerned about you. You stated the other day in a post that you were coping with some grief and loss and needed to look at little animals and things, do something lighter. I think that would be a good idea for you at this time. Please take care of yourself.
The Shepherding Movement I commented on, and how it is being marketed in churches and to Christians, does not constitute a *personal attack*.
I am honestly concerned about your well-being. Would you please take care of yourself at this time.
Max wrote:
Spot on, Max!
@ Velour:
Please stop engaging Numo on a personal level. I know who she is and she is perfectly fine. Let’s get on with the discussion about the post and not make this about one another.
Velour wrote:
I don’t think her comments are odd at all. If she is suffering I’d rather be hearing from her and and trying to share in her suffering. I do not want her to stop commenting because a few people don’t understand her comments. I don’t want one person to be exhiled because some in the group don’t want scroll by her comments if they don’t understand them. I don’t want all of us to think alike. BTW – I wouldn’t want anyone to say the things to you that you just said to Numo.
@ dee:
You and I were typing at the same time. I wasn’t trying to add on. I was/am a bit upset.
dee wrote:
Sure, Dee. Perhaps I have her name confused with someone else from over the weekend who posted that they were having a hard time reading posts here, had a recent loss, and needed to see little animals as a change of pace. (I will search them.)
I appreciate all that Gram3 and others have taught me about The Shepherding Movement and Pastor Wade Burleson’s awesome ministry and blog too. It’s terrible.
Hugs.
^ Correction: It = Shepherding Movement.
Thx.
@ Bridget:
Hi Bridget,
I’ve been gone at work. I think that there’s a bit of a misunderstanding somewhere. (I am a person who was excommunicated/shunned from my church of 8-years for my stance to protect children from a registered sex offender whom I had watched run his hands through my friends’ 4-year old son’s hair. I lost all of my friendships. My friends had to move out of the area to protect their family or they would have faced excommunication/shunning next. The NeoCals are spreading serious damage around the globe, and not just my experience or at my church.)
(I thought that it was Numo who posted a few days ago about wanting to not read here and a take a break and see pictures/movies of little animals, and some kind of loss. I was planning on finding a good documentary for her and posting a link, but I was busy with family. Maybe I got her name incorrectly with somebody else with a similar name.)
Dee has asked us all to stop.
Have a lovely week and thanks for your post!
dee wrote:
Hi Dee,
Will do. But I checked the posts from over the weekend and my memory was correct:
Bill M on Sun Aug 30, 2015 at 10:13 PM said:
numo wrote:
I am dealing with a lot of sadness plus grieving the recent death of a family member, and am thinking that pics of baby animals and the like are what i might need to be looking at – and i mean that quite seriously.
There are wintry times when I look for a warm place to sit and read, usually retreating into a good history book. I’m glad you and others were here with your stories when I needed it and of course thanks to Dee and Deb.
————————————-
So pictures of baby animals from one of my favorite photographers, Art Wolfe:
http://www.artwolfestock.com/gallery-list
Hugs to all,
Velour
@ Velour:
Bullsh*t.
@ Bridget:
I’m not “suffering,” but my tolerance for the kinds of nasty, needling attacks that have been occurring here recently are at an all-time low.
As for the people responsible, you know who you are. You’ve chased off Albuquerque Blue, and roebuck, and one of you deliberately poked sticks at Blue by casually mentioning that maybe his substance abuse problems were making him super-sensitive. (Said with phiny sympathy, oozing sarcasm.) I don’t think anyone has any right to take people down in that way.
If you persist, i might just contact some folks who are, as one of you says about their job, “in the legal profession.”
@ numo:
Phony.
Dee, sorry, but the people responsible for these posts need to stop, as you requested.
@ numo:
Is at an all-time…
I need a break from this place. Maybe I’ll ask Blue and roebuck over for a cookout…
Patrice wrote:
Oh how I wish that is how it worked. I feel as if this person wants to shut down opinions she does not like. She got me off this blog for a long time because just about everything I said “hurt her feelings” and she threatens to leave. She seems to have quite a few defenders every time so it works. And many of us have bad stuff going on.
I am pretty done with it, too
@ Lydia:
Oh for God’s sake – you’ve been saying that for years now, pretty muvh since I 1st began commenting here. I wish you would just drop it. It simply isn’t true, and I think you know that, but you enjoy talking about my supposed cendoriousness.
Enough.
@ Lydia:
Nobody made you leave, nor did I ever complain about you hurting my feelings. You went after so many people for so long, including Karton Kemerait and Arce.
This isn’t the right place for you to be making these kinds of statements, as I’m sure the Deebs can document what I’ve just mentioned. Perhaps you and Velour could start a blog or Facebook group where you won’t need to feel like any of us are encroaching on what you see as your turf? I have tried ignoring you, but things always seem to escalate. It is tedious, to say the least.
One of my family members just died of metastasized breast cancer, which had turned into bone cancer and brain tumors. She was in agonizing pain and not coherent for a lot of the final 9 months of her life. That is a tragic and horrible end, and I am worried about their family.
@ numo:
Karlton.
@ Bridget:
Thanks. Now if someone could close this thread *and* delete all the comments i have made over the past hour, i would be very grateful.
Velour wrote:
Velour, you said something similar to Albuquerque Blue a while back. He was upset about the tenor of the combox debate and you plowed through his boundaries and brought up something about rehab or something.
This pushes your part in the difficulty onto the other. That’s not ok.
It’s not easy to manage disagreements, esp if we’ve not been able to do it in our earlier lives, but it is worthwhile and important to learn. It took me a while; I learned it through art critique far before I learned it in general conversation. I found it frightening and that made me either completely silent or irritable.
The first and basic rule is no ad hominem, ever. Keep disagreement to the subject matter, not on the person. It is so worth it to follow this rule. I’m worried that otherwise this lovely combox that the Deebs so kindly provide will become crippled. None of us want that.
@ Patrice:
Bill M on Sun Aug 30, 2015 at 10:13 PM said:
numo wrote:
I am dealing with a lot of sadness plus grieving the recent death of a family member, and am thinking that pics of baby animals and the like are what i might need to be looking at – and i mean that quite seriously.
There are wintry times when I look for a warm place to sit and read, usually retreating into a good history book. I’m glad you and others were here with your stories when I needed it and of course thanks to Dee and Deb.
————————————-
So pictures of baby animals from one of my favorite photographers, Art Wolfe:
http://www.artwolfestock.com/gallery-list
@ Velour:
Bless your little heart, Velour.
@ Patrice:
Indeed regarding sunject matter and ad hominem attacks. I’ve screwed up, too, so this applies to me as well.
As for that comment intended for AB, it was totally uncalled-for and does not belong here.
Lydia wrote:
Lydia, I met you, really, on Julie Ann’s blog, and we fought some and then came to some agreements and it’s been ok between us. I like numo, as you can see. I’m aware that you and numo have been troubled since before I came on the scene.
It can write the way I wrote. It just means occasionally swallowing a few times before writing, and hanging up a pet peeve, now and then. We are brothers/sisters, children of the God of the Universe.
Grace and mercy. For you, for numo, for Velour, for Daisy, for me, for Bridget. All of us.
Ok, that’s all I have to say in this particular combox.
@ Patrice:
write=work
numo wrote:
Here you go. I didn’t watch it all the way through, but the puppies at the beginning were very cute and remind me of an old friend when we first met him at 7 weeks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HDw7sQE2H0
@ refugee:
Thanks, though at the moment, i am more concerned about how things have been playing themselves out here, in these comments.
I miss Albuquerque Blue, and others as well, like Karl.
numo wrote:
I know that talking Calvin and Luther (and Presbyterian and Lutheran) can be apples and oranges, but I have heard similar sentiments from Calvinists. “I think most folks see what is good in (Calvin’s) thought and writing and ignore the rest.”
I am not saying the two men are the same, or that their fruit is the same. I simply find the coincidence in what I hear people saying to be fascinating.
I think (and this is my opinion) that you can find abuse, dysfunction, and authoritarianism in any denomination (or non-denominational church) or belief-based group. (Lots of other groups, too… business groups, community groups, etc.) You can also find love and light (not necessarily within one of the abusive groups, of course).
We went from one church that was amazing, where the people were known for their love and Christ was *real*, to another church several thousand miles away in the same denomination, where things were said in sermons like “the myth of Adam and Eve” and “I don’t believe in a literal virgin birth,” and theology aside, there was bitterness and gossip and backbiting. Same denomination. Totally different.
I have gone from a carefully correct reformed church with authoritarianism and gossip and backbiting and clicks, to a reformed church with joy and praise and love and the elders listen and are willing to change if needed. Both reformed. Totally different.
I think when people here recognize common themes (like authoritarianism spread across different types of churches), they might take shortcuts, make assumptions. I figure it’s just a misunderstanding. Nothing malicious.
Bless you, and may you rest well tonight.
(I think I meant “cliques” not “clicks”)
numo wrote:
I miss Albuquerque Blue, too. I try to read all the comments here, though sometimes in a fast moving discussion I miss whole sections (I have not read all the comments in this post, for example, and hope I haven’t misconstrued anything thereby). I even read the comments I find triggering. I seem to be driven to understand where people are coming from, even those people who would relegate me to second-class status and slap duct tape over my mouth. I want to know what makes them think the way they do. I don’t know exactly why.
And sometimes I find my mind is expanded by reading the thoughts of people who think and live very differently from myself.
numo wrote:
That was about what was going on in your personal life.
numo wrote:
That was me. I tried to explain that I hadn’t read through all the comments before responding to one of his that I misunderstood. He thought I was purposely misquoting/misrepresenting him because he had clarified himself in later comments which I hadn’t read as yet. I told him I wasn’t the type to purposely misrepresent anyone. I don’t know if he understood. 🙁
@ Bridget:
I know, not to worry.
Roebuck said that he had revently had other difficulties, on other threads. Please don’t blame yourself.
@ refugee:
Yes,thanks, but I’ve been through the wringer with an abusive church too – kicked out, shunned, the works. So it’s not as if i can’t understand how other people might feel when it happens to them.
As for malice, it would be nice to think that none was intended, but today’s comments have been more like the book/tv show “Good Christian B*tches” than honest misunderstandings. There is too much malice, I’m thinking, and I really don’t like it.
@ refugee:
As for finding abusive people in any group, i agree completely.
Velour
Numo
Stop it.
Just stop talking to each other. NOW
In general folks. It is for Dee, Deb, and I to deal with people’s comments. If you don’t like what someone says, contact us via the Contact menu. We will deal with the issue.
And if you don’t know what I’m talking about just move on. Nothing to see here.
@ GuyBehindtheCurtain:
OK. I really would have been better off not responding. However, this is not an isolated incident. You probably are aware of that, re. a couple of other regulars, over the past couple of weeks.
@ Daisy:
It vould have been phrased in a far kinder way, though.
Patrice wrote:
I was really encouraged by reading this Patrice, thank you (from someone who has constantly run from the deficit position for many years). It’s time to change…
Haitch wrote:
Seems a particularly USian thing, to overdo and under-sleep. It adds up over time. For my repair, I needed lots and lots of rest to arrive at neutral, and then a good wad more to arrive at surplus.
There are a variety of ways to do it. I hope you can. I’d be willing to bet that even God would be glad you’re taking care of yourself. 🙂
numo wrote:
Ditto here numes, Blue & Karl are kind and good men.
Patrice wrote:
For me it’s Vincent van Gogh’s Thatched Cottages at Cordeville.
Muff Potter wrote:
I’ll have to look that one up.
numo wrote:
This is my point. And the point of Dee’s post. It is OUR job to deal with these issues. If you feel someone is stepping over the line, contact us. Otherwise leave moderation to us.
@ GuyBehindtheCurtain:
TBH, i think it simply doesn’t occur to many people (contacting you folks). Beyond that, i can’t begin to speculate, but i understood the point of Dee’s comments. Especially since i was being told that my comments were inappropriate, etc., by another poster.
But Dee has addressed many concerns in her post today, so i think the bases are covered.