Quiverfull Quandary – Concerns about the Duggars

"Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate."

Psalm 127:3-5 (KJV)

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=46176&picture=pregnancyPregnancy

Seven years ago we first learned of a movement called Quiverfull, primarily because of the Duggar family.  Not long after we started blogging, we addressed this growing movement in a post called Be Fruitful and Multipy – Mantra of the Quiverfull Movement. (see screen shot below)

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2009/07/09/be-fruitful-and-multiply-mantra-of-the-quiverfull-movement/

When we began researching the Quiverfull movement, we came across a 2007 Nightline broadcast cleverly called Why Having Kids is a Religious Experience.  Here is a screen shot from the program's transcript that sheds some light on this movement.

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=2767898&page=2

The Vision Forum crowd (Doug Phillips and his cohorts) was also into being fruitful and multiplying.  We learned of the Geoffrey Botkin family, who were close friends of the Phillips.  Two of the Botkin daughters heavily promoted quiverfull, as we explained in our post entitled Sisterhood of the Stay at Home Daughters.  Of course, Vision Forum is now defunct because of Doug Phillips' indiscretions.

And now the Duggar family is in a very deep hole and may not be able to dig themselves out.  This reality TV family, which in our opinion created highly scripted shows, opened themselves up for inspection the moment they began cashing in on their growing family.  And just because they call it a 'reality show' does not make it so. 

From the start Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar have held themselves up as 'role models' to be emulated.  In show after show they have presented an image that in reality is fake.  As Dee has previously pointed out, they have two kitchens – the one that is show-worthy and the larger one that is usually hidden.  Guess which one this is…

Have you heard the Duggar version of the term "Nike"?  The female members of the Duggar family would blurt it out if an inappropriately dressed woman was approaching.  Upon hearing it, the male members of the family were to look down at their shoes in order to avoid temptation.  So how did that work out?

And, of course, there is the daughters' modest appearance.  When swimming the Duggar girls make sure they are covered from the 'neck to the knees'.  Again, there were serious problems in the family despite this policy of conservative attire.

Finally, let's not forget the heavy emphasis on monitoring internet usage and the installation of filters by the Duggar parents.  Apparently, Josh was able to maintain a private Facebook account for years without being detected…

Last year four of the oldest daughters wrote a book titled Growing Up Duggar.  Incredibly, the subtitle is "It's All About Relationships".  Here's their video promo:

Those are just a few examples of a family that claimed to be 'real' on its reality show; yet the reality is that this family has been deceptive from the start.  Their TV image is just that, and we fear that some have been taken in by their portrayal of a wholesome Christian family.  We are worried that some of our brothers and sisters in Christ have bought into the lie that God expects husbands and wives to produce a quiver of children.  The Duggars used this scheme to make bank, and now the entire world has observed how it has backfired on them.  We call it the Duggar Delusion, and we are grateful that the truth is finally getting out.

The Duggars have released a statement that comes much closer to reality than any of their TLC episodes.  Here is a screen shot of what appeared on their website.

http://duggarfamily.com/michelles-blog?ID=fd82bcb8-6dec-49b5-bdaa-5bed13fa3f7e

We hope you will join us in praying for Josh, Anna, their four children, and their extended families.  May God's will be done in their lives. 

Furthermore, we pray for those who have been negatively influenced by the Duggars.  May they be discerning as they move beyond the images they saw on 19 Kids and Counting and prior episodes…

Comments

Quiverfull Quandary – Concerns about the Duggars — 575 Comments

  1. I am honestly glad for their family's problems and abuse to be exposed. Their playbook of authoritarianism and legalism didn't buy them a healthy family. They lied to make it look that way. They attacked the reputations and careers of their town's police chief and state's social services for abiding by the law in their family's case. They blamed everyone but themselves.

    Why is it the big proponents of these doctrines – Gothard, Philips, etc – are later accused of sexually preying on people, and young females? Why are we to take our life lessons from predators? Do we look to others who should be in prison and emulate them?

    No doubt there are stories like this at my former Gulag NeoCal church with its authoritarian control and comp doctrines.

  2. As revelations, or at least allegations, continue to become public, I pray all the more for Anna’s well being, discernment, and courage. May all the Duggars and all of Anna’s family have their eyes opened to reality and be unwilling to look away in denial.

  3. My heart aches for Anna. Now an adult-film actress is claiming she had two encounters with Josh Duggar during Anna’s fourth pregnancy. How much more must this young mother endure?

  4. A Georgia Mom’s Open Letter To Anna Duggar

    JESSICA KIRKLAND’S FULL ‘BREATHE FIRE’ POST

    I know everybody is laughing about this Josh Duggar story. Oh, a DUGGAR on Ashley Madison, it’s so rich! I wish more people would talk about Anna. I normally keep things light on Facebook, but let’s talk about Anna. Let me tell you: Anna Duggar is in the worst position she could possibly be in right now. Anna Duggar was crippled by her parents by receiving no education, having no work experience (or life experience, for that matter) and then was shackled to this loser because his family was famous in their religious circle. Anna Duggar was taught that her sole purpose in life, the most meaningful thing she could do, was to be chaste and proper, a devout wife, and a mother. Anna Duggar did that! Anna Duggar followed the rules that were imposed on her from the get-go and this is what she got in reward- a husband who she found out, in the span of six months, not only molested his own sisters, but was unfaithful to her in the most humiliating way possible. While she was fulfilling her “duty” of providing him with four children and raising them. She lived up to the standard that men set for her of being chaste and Godly and in return, the man who demanded this of her sought women who were the opposite. “Be this,” they told her. She was. It wasn’t enough.

    What is Anna Duggar supposed to do? She can’t divorce because the religious environment she was brought up would blame her and ostracize her for it. Even if she would risk that, she has no education and no work experience to fall back on, so how does she support her kids? From where could she summon the ability to turn her back on everything she ever held to be sacred and safe? Her beliefs, the very thing she would turn to for comfort in this kind of crisis, are the VERY REASON she is in this predicament in the first place. How can she reconcile this? Her parents have utterly, utterly failed her. Think of this: somewhere, Anna Duggar is sitting in prayer, praying not for the strength to get out and stand on her own, but for the strength to stand by this man she is unfortunately married to. To lower herself so that he may rise up on her back.

    As a mother of daughters, this makes me ill. Parents, WE MUST DO BETTER BY OUR DAUGHTERS. Boys, men, are born with power. Girls have to command it for themselves. They aren’t given it. They assume it and take it. But you have to teach them to do it, that they can do it. We HAVE to teach our daughters that they are not beholden to men like this. That they don’t have to marry a man their father deems ‘acceptable’ and then stay married to that man long, long after he proved himself UNACCEPTABLE. Educate them. Empower them. Give them the tools they need to survive, on their own if they must. Josh Duggar should be cowering in fear of Anna Duggar right now. Cowering. He isn’t, but he should be. He should be quaking in fear that the house might fall down around them if he’s in the same room as she. Please, instill your daughters with the resolve to make a man cower if he must. To say “I don’t deserve this, and my children don’t deserve this.” I wish someone had ever, just once, told Anna she was capable of this. That she knew she is. As for my girls, I’ll raise them to think they breathe fire.
    .

  5. Tree wrote:

    May all the Duggars and all of Anna’s family have their eyes opened to reality and be unwilling to look away in denial.

    Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar have their denial system firmly in place. When they could ignore that Josh sexually abused 4 of his sisters and 1 babysitter, perhaps others too we haven’t heard about, the Duggars blame everybody else (social services, their police chief), get a lawyer for Josh to sue state when he is 19, got another lawyer for daughter to sue recently, they seem like a pretty sick and vicious bunch. Arrogant too.

  6. Velour wrote:

    Boys, men, are born with power. Girls have to command it for themselves.

    Well said. Carter also mentions this in his latest TED talk.

  7. JYJames wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Boys, men, are born with power. Girls have to command it for themselves.
    Well said. Carter also mentions this in his latest TED talk.

    Credit to writer Jessica Kirkland in Georgia.

  8. Marsha wrote:

    He didn’t get professional help over a decade ago and he is not getting it now.

    No, he is not. He’s in a place called Reformers Unanimous recovery center and it’s pretty much just pray and work and read your Bible. No real counseling or professional therapy. But is that really surprising?

  9. Deb wrote:

    I will be looking into the various programs offered by Reformers Unanimous.
    http://www.reformu.com/
    I have noticed their signs at some churches in our area.

    Please do. I have a feeling that this may not be something that is helpful to Josh, Anna, or anyone else.

  10. As I read through a Gawker article on Reformers Unanimous, and looking at some of the links and comments, what stands out to me is the high probability we will see the use of terms like cult and cultish in relation to the theologies, movements, and programs related to this entire wing of high-demand, hyper-biblical Christianity. Time to pull out Robert Jay Lifton materials again for descriptions of what constitutes a “totalist control” system.

    Here’s a post that ties together elements in a “closed system” like the ones we’re seeing at work here.

    https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2014/10/05/deconstructing-the-christian-industrial-complex-part-4/

  11. So, Josh isn’t getting help from a trained professional. Does it even matter. IMHO, I don’t believe Josh Duggar wants to change. Life would have been so great for him if he just hadn’t gotten caught. He’s been doing things for over 10 years, and all the family does is try to cover things up and make light of the situations. Even if JD does want to change, it will take years of professional counseling and complete commitment on his part. Can he do it? Considering the way he was raised to view women, I doubt it …. oh, maybe for a while. But how often and how many time will he revert? How does he see his daughters? Somewhere down the road, will he abuse them? His oldest daughter is 6 years old now. Has he already done things to her? I can’t help but wonder.

    And what of Anna? She has been raised to be some man’s incubator and door mat. Does she have any self worth? Who is “counseling” her? The same people who raised her to believe that a woman’s only purpose in life is to serve some man and birth his babies?
    “We are so thankful for the outpouring of love, care and prayers for our family…” HA! The only members of that family I am concerned about are Josh’s wife and children! If Anna were my daughter, I’d move heaven and earth to get her out of that situation. I might even be looking at jail time!

    And, I wonder about Josh’s younger brothers. They have been raised in the same environment, by the same people, with Josh as a mentor. How are the other Duggar boys going to turn out??? Is the whole family damaged for life? I hate to think that way, but given the history of these people and the history of the people who’s teachings they follow …….. how many more victims will there be???

  12. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Time to pull out Robert Jay Lifton materials again for descriptions of what constitutes a “totalist control” system.

    Here’s a post that ties together elements in a “closed system” like the ones we’re seeing at work here.

    Yes! Folks please familiarize yourselves with Thought Reform tactics. It will help to catch the red flags early on.

  13. Here’s an excerpt of a post, with a summary list of the eight classic criteria of a mind-control “sociological cult” — which may or may not be religious in nature. As I skimmed through the 31-page Reformers Unanimous application packet, it struck me that it would make an enlightening exercise to compare Robert Jay Lifton’s criteria with the overall system which that application packet seems to present. This article also has a link to a PDF which includes a one-paragraph expansion for each of these eight sentences.

    https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/the-hunger-games-trilogy-5a/

    EXCERPT:

    Dr. Lifton began his studies on “thought reform” in the mid-1950s. He was then a therapist for the U.S. military, and originally worked with prisoners of war from the Korean conflict. This shifted and he began working with men and women who survived Communist China’s “re-education programs.” He interviewed 40 of these former prisoners of the communist China regime – 25 Westerners and 15 Chinese. From their case studies, he pulled out a set of eight elements that were common pattern in what they experienced and how it affected them.

    These criteria for identifying a totalistic paradigm and the thought reform techniques that sustained it were published in the groundbreaking 1961 book, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of “Brainwashing” in China.

    The initial phrase is the exact title Dr. Lifton uses to name the criterion, and the description that follows it is my ultra-brief summary. We’ll get into specifics in the next post.

    1. Milieu Control – restrict what communication modes are allowed.

    2. Mystical Manipulation – appeal to some higher purpose, as set by the leader or organization.

    3. The Demand for Purity – require purity of thinking, that is, with a black-and-white mentality where every view our group holds is absolutely correct.

    4. The Cult of Confession – use a radical level of personal confession to unburden people from their crimes (real or imagined) against the organization and realign them with its principles.

    5. The “Sacred Science” – promote our moral vision as ultimate: Our way of life is the only right one.

    6. Loading the Language – create code words and insider jargon that reduce complex problems to simplistic solutions, and condense categories into judgmental labels.

    7. Doctrine Over Person – require people to conform to our perfect system of truth so that individuality is eradicated and sublime conformity is the sacred norm.

    8. The Dispensing of Existence – exercise the “right” to decide who has the right to exist in public and who needs to be isolated or excommunicated.

    His criteria have since been applied over the years to political organizations and movements – like the cult of Mao in China. They have also been applied to spiritual/religious groups – like the cult of Jim Jones and The Peoples Temple. His approach to understanding totalitarian systems is relevant wherever extreme social coercion is applied to force people toward social conformity. Unfortunately, this includes toxic churches and malignant ministries, where a dystopian paradigm of authoritarian power, fear, and demands for compliance dominate.

  14. I just double checked. The PDF for Lifton actually has half to 1.5 pages on each of the eight criteria, plus some exercises you can work through individually or as part of group study and discussion. (I wrote this piece a couple years ago and tied it in with The Hunger Games, where all eight of these principles are at play.) Here’s the link to the PDF — and the one-page expansions start on page 15. Hope these are of help as we discern the larger situation that’s being revealed re: Quiverfull, Patriarchy, Gothardism, and related movements that all intersect in this one deeply sad situation …

    https://futuristguy.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/liftons-8-criteria-for-identifying-authoritarian-cults.pdf

  15. As I’ve followed this story, I keep asking myself, “Where is Jesus in all of this? Where is the gospel?” I see it nowhere. It’s nothing but legalism and power trips, and “Lording it over” the women in this family.

    As a married man, Josh Duggar’s actions make me sick to my stomach. That he would marry Anna, have four kids while doing all of this on the side is…is just…despicable. Men are supposed to love their wives. They’re supposed to respect them and honor them. As a husband, I take that very seriously, and I have no respect for any man that doesn’t. Josh Duggar isn’t even a man. He’s a boy.

    Still, I pray for that whole family–even Josh, but especially Anna. They are all blind to these false teaching. I pray for healing for Anna, help for Josh, and for everyone to just snap out of this legalistic BS.

    It’s all just awful.

  16. @ Nancy2:
    for me, the Duggars were first ‘outed’ when I saw a video of the exhausted Michelle cutting the hair of her well-groomed, well-rested Master;
    and I thought that if he was half the man my own father was, he would get up, drive his poor exhausted wife to a hair dresser and order the works for her, so she could relax for a while in peace and be ‘cared for’.

    What kind of marriage produces such extremes: a smug patriarch, well-dressed, well-groomed, and ‘in-charge’;
    with a spouse who looks like she has been through WWIII and, depending on her dress or hair, resembles more a little girl herself, or his aging mother?

    Scary. It was that first time I noticed it. Still is. The whole tribe is afflicted, false smiles and pretense and all. Josh is just an open sore on something far worse, I’m afraid.

  17. Christiane wrote:

    @ Nancy2:
    for me, the Duggars were first ‘outed’ when I saw a video of the exhausted Michelle cutting the hair of her well-groomed, well-rested Master;
    and I thought that if he was half the man my own father was, he would get up, drive his poor exhausted wife to a hair dresser and order the works for her, so she could relax for a while in peace and be ‘cared for’.
    What kind of marriage produces such extremes: a smug patriarch, well-dressed, well-groomed, and ‘in-charge’;
    with a spouse who looks like she has been through WWIII and, depending on her dress or hair, resembles more a little girl herself, or his aging mother?
    Scary. It was that first time I noticed it. Still is. The whole tribe is afflicted, false smiles and pretense and all. Josh is just an open sore on something far worse, I’m afraid.

    And the fact that this kind of thing is tolerated by the church is outrageous. How many other marriages in our churches are like this? And we turn a blind eye, saying, “well, the man IS the head of the household, after all” or not wanting to interfere in another family’s affairs. It’s not supposed to look like this. Women and daughters are not supposed to be raised like this. It’s immoral. And it needs to be called out from the pulpit.

    Sorry, I’m just so angry about this. I could never treat my wife, or raise my daughter (if I had one) this way. And how any man could under the cloak of Christianity…it just makes my blood boil.

  18. @ Tina:
    I have spent a little time over at their website and am very concerned if this the only help Josh will be receiving.

    Maybe Josh will be donning their “Cured by the Word” hoodie offered for sale on the Reformers Unanimous website.

  19. Nancy2 said:

    “And, I wonder about Josh’s younger brothers. They have been raised in the same environment, by the same people, with Josh as a mentor. How are the other Duggar boys going to turn out??? Is the whole family damaged for life? I hate to think that way, but given the history of these people and the history of the people who’s teachings they follow …….. how many more victims will there be???”

    This may be somewhat of a tangent, but the recently ended courtship of Josiah and Marjorie got me wondering about the future courtship prospects of the remaining Duggar kids. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if everyone else in this cultic system expressed all sorts of sympathy for their former star family, while making sure none of their own adult kids became allied to them via marriage.

    Jimbob and Michelle’s cash cow has now kicked the bucket; what are they going to do with a household increasingly comprised of young adults with no serious prospects of gainful employment? The sons at least might one day leave and start businesses or whatever with the help of their father’s contacts. But the daughters?

  20. Unless they get Josh actual professional help, down the road, he’s going to doing something similar again….pray all you want, and it might work, for a while, but he’s going to return to his old ways…..this is not the last we’ve heard on this….

  21. Christiane wrote:

    @ Nancy2:
    for me, the Duggars were first ‘outed’ when I saw a video of the exhausted Michelle cutting the hair of her well-groomed, well-rested Master;
    and I thought that if he was half the man my own father was, he would get up, drive his poor exhausted wife to a hair dresser and order the works for her, so she could relax for a while in peace and be ‘cared for’.
    What kind of marriage produces such extremes: a smug patriarch, well-dressed, well-groomed, and ‘in-charge’;
    with a spouse who looks like she has been through WWIII and, depending on her dress or hair, resembles more a little girl herself, or his aging mother?
    Scary. It was that first time I noticed it. Still is. The whole tribe is afflicted, false smiles and pretense and all. Josh is just an open sore on something far worse, I’m afraid.

    All of the children are controlled by the parents. Look at Josh, even today. Did he have a choice of where he went for treatment? Did he even really want or think he needs treatment? How well did the past treatment his parents provided help him? Does he have the self awareness skills to think any of this through? Josh is still responding like a child at age 27.

    I feel for all the children. Look at the Botkin children. Grown women are still at home being governed by their parents. Who in their right mind wants to be a partner to a grown man or woman who is still under their parent’s care and instruction? You wonder how healthy a marriage would be if the couple does not function outside of the Duggar’s world.

  22. Christiane wrote:

    for me, the Duggars were first ‘outed’ when I saw a video of the exhausted Michelle cutting the hair of her well-groomed, well-rested Master;

    This looks so much like a dynamic I’ve seen so often in Furry Fandom:
    The Mooch and Sucker Show.
    The “well-groomed, well-rested” CELEBRITY mooch and the haggard, exhausted sucker doing all the work.
    In such cases, the Mooch is usually the Big Name Fan CELEBRITY — with the sucker (or suckers) supporting him and waiting on him hand and foot, he can spend 24/7/365 in self-promotion.

  23. Deb wrote:

    I have spent a little time over at their website and am very concerned if this the only help Josh will be receiving.

    The problem is, Josh doesn’t WANT help. He has been happily living a lie, cheating on his wife, being a hypocrite at work and in public…for years.

    I’m sure he is sorrowful now…because he was found out. Not because he is repentant.

    A stint reading the Bible and engaging in manual labour at some Bill Gothard institute is not going to ‘help’ Josh. It didn’t help him before and won’t help him now.

    But the root of the problem is his sin…To me it is very doubtful as to whether Josh has any real faith anyway, or real desire to deal with his sin.

  24. NJ wrote:

    It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if everyone else in this cultic system expressed all sorts of sympathy for their former star family, while making sure none of their own adult kids became allied to them via marriage.

    I hope you’re right. I am very glad that Marjorie got away. The way the end of the courtship was publicised leads me to believe SHE (or probably her parents) ended it. If so, good on them.

    As an aside, isn’t it strange that the Botkin sisters haven’t married either?

  25. Deb wrote:

    @ Tina:
    I have spent a little time over at their website and am very concerned if this the only help Josh will be receiving.

    Maybe Josh will be donning their “Cured by the Word” hoodie offered for sale on the Reformers Unanimous website.

    More likely this will only add to the mental health issues he already has. Meanwhile, Anna and grandchildren are under the thumb of Jim Bob waiting for Josh’s *glorious* return.
    I truly believe suicide and/or murder could be next. Awful to watch a family failing further into an abyss…..and for no reason except their own awful commitment to patriarchy.

  26. Sean wrote:

    Women and daughters are not supposed to be raised like this. It’s immoral. And it needs to be called out from the pulpit.

    Regrettably, this teaching is promoted from SBC and PCA pulpits and SBC seminaries are churning out M.Div.s to spread this through the churches. They are churning out Ph.D.s who can gain control over ETS to use its status to further promote this ideology. Honestly I think it is like an epidemic that will need to burn itself out, and that means there will be lots of bodies before that happens.

  27. May wrote:

    As an aside, isn’t it strange that the Botkin sisters haven’t married either?

    I’ve wondered that, too, but they would give up a lot of status if they married. I think they are smart enough to know that. Plus, they have seen the inside. Maybe they know this is all a sham and a show that they sell. A bigger question for me is what is wrong with the girls and women who listen to them?

  28. May wrote:

    As an aside, isn’t it strange that the Botkin sisters haven’t married either?

    I noted that a few comments above. And, no, no really. Who would want to marry into a famy with such control oriented in-laws. I am not saying this to be mean. I hope they do marry soon. But any wise Christian man would do wise to steer clear or move far far away from the clan.

  29. Gram3 wrote:

    Regrettably, this teaching is promoted from SBC and PCA pulpits and SBC seminaries are churning out M.Div.s to spread this through the churches. They are churning out Ph.D.s who can gain control over ETS to use its status to further promote this ideology. Honestly I think it is like an epidemic that will need to burn itself out, and that means there will be lots of bodies before that happens.

    Sadly, yes. It’s why I could never go to an SBC or PCA church. Those three (or six) letters are a sign for me to just stay away, and keep on looking.

  30. May wrote:

    As an aside, isn’t it strange that the Botkin sisters haven’t married either?

    I’ve wondered that, too, but they would give up a lot of status if they married. I think they are smart enough to know that. Plus, they have seen the inside. Maybe they know this is all a sham and a show that they sell. A bigger question for me is what is wrong with the girls and women who listen to them?

    The Botkin sisters are like what, both in their 30s, now?

    I thought that originally they were both supposed to marry young to men from likeminded families (with 200 year plans?), and start procreating as much as possible. I wonder if Geoff Botkin’s thinking has changed significantly over the years.

  31. What’s messed up is that josh duggar is now away doing “the hard work of recovery” while his poor wife is home taking care of four kids by her self. I can tell you he has the much easier job! Also, Its not like grandma duggar has the time to come over and help Anna either. How do the women in this cult movement make it without losing it. It’s not like they have time to go off and have a fling with prostitutes to let off steam like the men can!

  32. NJ wrote:

    I wonder if Geoff Botkin’s thinking has changed significantly over the years.

    I’m obviously not a dad, but if I were Dad Botkin, I would probably have serious control issues and not want to relinquish control. Also if I were Dad Botkin I would probably not want to put my daughters into a position that leaves them so vulnerable to control-freak men like me.

  33. dee wrote:

    He is reportedly being sent to Reformers Unanimous.There he will learn, I am not joking,
    Satan’s Demonic Hiearchial Millitiary Power Structure Part 3

    I’m thinking this is Jim Bob’s doing. None of those adult kids will ever be able to make their own decisions.

  34. Sean wrote:

    As I’ve followed this story, I keep asking myself, “Where is Jesus in all of this? Where is the gospel?” I see it nowhere. It’s nothing but legalism and power trips, and “Lording it over” the women in this family.

    As a married man, Josh Duggar’s actions make me sick to my stomach. That he would marry Anna, have four kids while doing all of this on the side is…is just…despicable. Men are supposed to love their wives. They’re supposed to respect them and honor them. As a husband, I take that very seriously, and I have no respect for any man that doesn’t. Josh Duggar isn’t even a man. He’s a boy.

    Still, I pray for that whole family–even Josh, but especially Anna. They are all blind to these false teaching. I pray for healing for Anna, help for Josh, and for everyone to just snap out of this legalistic BS.

    It’s all just awful.

    Amen, Sean!

  35. Gram3 wrote:

    I’m obviously not a dad, but if I were Dad Botkin, I would probably have serious control issues and not want to relinquish control. Also if I were Dad Botkin I would probably not want to put my daughters into a position that leaves them so vulnerable to control-freak men like me.

    Hilarious!! But sad.

  36. May wrote:

    The problem is, Josh doesn’t WANT help. He has been happily living a lie, cheating on his wife, being a hypocrite at work and in public…for years.
    I’m sure he is sorrowful now…because he was found out. Not because he is repentant.

    Josh’s entire family has enabled him for years. Daddy and Mommy have lied for Josh and had his sisters to the same. This family has NO SHAME. They have attacked their city’s police chief, maligning her name and demanding her firing, because she was required by state law to comply with a Freedom of Information Act request for a redacted police report about the abuse (requested by a news agency).

    Josh’s parents hired an attorney to have him sue when he was 19 years old the Arkansas Social Services Department for investigating their family for this abuse.

    Josh’s parents had a judge recently issue an order to have the original police report destroyed about the abuse, as though it never happened. That is NEVER done.

    The Duggar parents got an attorney for one of their daughters to sue an agency there to protect her rights.

    This family blames EVERYBODY else for their problems. Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar have emboldened Josh every step of the way. He treats Anna like garbage, because he was permitted by his parents to treat four of his own sisters and a baby sitter (and perhaps other victims too?) like garbage.

  37. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    for me, the Duggars were first ‘outed’ when I saw a video of the exhausted Michelle cutting the hair of her well-groomed, well-rested Master;

    This looks so much like a dynamic I’ve seen so often in Furry Fandom:
    The Mooch and Sucker Show.
    The “well-groomed, well-rested” CELEBRITY mooch and the haggard, exhausted sucker doing all the work.
    In such cases, the Mooch is usually the Big Name Fan CELEBRITY — with the sucker (or suckers) supporting him and waiting on him hand and foot, he can spend 24/7/365 in self-promotion.

    Got cut short to get to work; here’s some continuation:

    The suckers are kept in their place by either reflected fame from the Big Name Fan/CELEBRITY Mooch, guilt manipulation by the Mooch (AKA “Mutant Power to Induce Guilt”), or what an old Bill Cosby interview called “conmanship” (AKA “Shining the Stupid Ray on them” by force of rank or personality).

    The Mooch gets all the fame and glory (and POWER); the sucker(s) get all the work and responsibility. When badly or obviously done, the Mooch becomes a laughingstock (except in his own mind, where He’s a Legend); when well done with manipulation and deception, you will find others flocking to become suckers.

  38. dee wrote:

    Satan’s Demonic Hiearchial Millitiary Power Structure Part 3

    Militiary??

    These people can’t even spell Military. That’s scary. And Josh is signed up for a 6 month program with them. Oh my.

  39. @ brad/futuristguy:

    Here’s an excerpt of a post, with a summary list of the eight classic criteria of a mind-control “sociological cult” — which may or may not be religious in nature.

    I remember well the light bulbs that went off after reading Lifton’s criteria. I felt sick upon realizing what I had unintentionally allowed to take such control of my life. If I remember correctly, Cindy Kunsman had a similar experience when someone introduced the criteria to her. Thank you for continuing to share it.

  40. Velour wrote:

    Josh’s entire family has enabled him for years. Daddy and Mommy have lied for Josh and had his sisters to the same. This family has NO SHAME.

    Why should they? They are God’s Anointed.

    Josh’s parents hired an attorney to have him sue when he was 19 years old the Arkansas Social Services Department for investigating their family for this abuse.

    Josh’s parents had a judge recently issue an order to have the original police report destroyed about the abuse, as though it never happened. That is NEVER done.

    Isn’t it Great to have Friends in High Places?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4pStVNQc4M

    This family blames EVERYBODY else for their problems.

    “Could it be… SATAN?”
    — The Church Lady, Saturday Night Live

    “The Debbil Made Me Do It!”
    — Flip Wilson as Geraldine

    Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar have emboldened Josh every step of the way.

    Of course. He’s MALE and he’s a Duggar, Heir Apparent and Presumptive to Jim Bob.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyh9w_AO3YE

  41. Gram3 wrote:

    Honestly I think it is like an epidemic that will need to burn itself out, and that means there will be lots of bodies before that happens.

    Like what happened to Naziism and Communism in the last century?

  42. NJ wrote:

    I just noticed that Hierarchical is also misspelled. Dude.
    Hyles-Anderson grads, eh?

    Yep. The co-founder and chairman of the board is pastor of the IFB church where the “students” in rehab are required to attend. This will be so helpful to Joshie. Not.

  43. Josh has had the money to purchase rough sex ($1500 an encounter) until now. He is not getting real treatment and the Duggar gravy train has derailed. Now that he cannot purchase what he wants, what is he going to do?

  44. If this is the kind of place they are sending Josh, I hate to think of what sort of counselor they must be directing Anna to.

    She desperately needs to talk to *somebody* without the predetermined agenda of keeping her marriage together at all costs.

  45. NJ wrote:

    If this is the kind of place they are sending Josh, I hate to think of what sort of counselor they must be directing Anna to.

    She desperately needs to talk to *somebody* without the predetermined agenda of keeping her marriage together at all costs.

    I’m thinking her brother Daniel has a good head on his shoulders…and he would be a good place for her to start.

  46. If I knew Anna personally, I would already be on the phone with her to let her know that Daniel and I are available at any time to come out and pick her and the kids up.
    Not pushing her toward that, but letting her know she has that escape hatch open to her.

  47. May wrote:

    e is sorrowful now…because he was found out

    And is the solution cover-up or clean-up? Even Hazelden is discreet about the privacy of their attendees however, within the program, clients face facts, face themselves, their actions, consequences, etc. The only way out is through, painful as it is.

  48. NJ wrote:

    She desperately needs to talk to *somebody* without the predetermined agenda of keeping her marriage together at all costs.

    She first needs to listen to her brother who is trying to tell her that she is a real person in her own right and not merely and extension or assistant or servant to Joshua. What is wrong with her parents??? Her brother says they are fine with keeping everything as it is. Seriously, this is how toxic these doctrines are: they will turn parents against the good of their own daughter in order to serve the System. It is beyond sick.

  49. This whole thing isn’t really that new or different. It just feels that way because it’s current. Remember the whole Jon and Kate Plus 8 fiasco?

    It’s all part and parcel of a larger Christian celebrity culture. Is there fault on the part of the Duggars? Sure, probably many. Is their particular brand of Christianity warped, harmful and a bit cultic? I think so. Will I pray for them? Absolutely.

    But the main fault as I see it lies with a whole mass of cultural Christianity in America that didn’t have enough discretion or wisdom in the first place to realize that almost none of the Christian-branded junk they see on TV is real or true or edifying. From the Christian leaders who glom onto celebrity of any type in a bid for power and visibility and “relevance,” to the many, many average people in the pews who follow blindly without questioning, to those whose faith has become merely a subtext for political posturing and culture war blustering, and more. There is plenty of blame to go around. Somehow, we’ve created a public face of Christianity in which the moderate voices that knew from the start that these celebrity ventures were a mistake simply do not get the microphone.

  50. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    Honestly I think it is like an epidemic that will need to burn itself out, and that means there will be lots of bodies before that happens.
    Like what happened to Naziism and Communism in the last century?

    I’m not sure either Naziism or Communism has totally burned out. The impulse for the state to be everything and own everything, even if through corporate proxies, is still with us, IMO. But that’s probably because I’m pretty libertarian.

  51. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    His criteria have since been applied over the years to political organizations and movements – like the cult of Mao in China. They have also been applied to spiritual/religious groups –

    Sounds very much like of Calvary Chapel in its halcyon old days. I’ve written elsewhere that Papa Chuck (founder of Calvary Chapel) was revered much like Chairman Mao was in a bygone China.

  52. Sean wrote:

    Josh Duggar isn’t even a man. He’s a boy.

    … taking dominion over women (hierarchy), rather than taking dominion over the earth (acquiring job skills), Genesis 1. Misinterpretation or malpractice of the Bible. Question: Do lack of job/social skills and domination of others go hand in hand?

  53. JYJames wrote:

    Sean wrote:
    Josh Duggar isn’t even a man. He’s a boy.
    … taking dominion over women (hierarchy), rather than taking dominion over the earth (acquiring job skills), Genesis 1. Misinterpretation or malpractice of the Bible. Question: Do lack of job/social skills and domination of others go hand in hand?

    I wish I were as pithy as you are.

  54. Please, instill your daughters with the resolve to make a man cower if he must.

    I don’t defend Josh Duggar or his conduct in any way, but I wonder if this goes too far in the other direction.

    I agree women should be given the tools to fend for themselves. That’s common sense. Not all women will marry, and those who marry need to be ready if something happens to their husband or their marriage. But forcing men to cower? Perhaps it would be better to force men to face up to their responsibilities, especially those who prove unfaithful to their wives.

  55. Over the years, I’ve heard a couple of different teachers/preachers say that a quiver held a total of five arrows. Can any of you scholars confirm that? If that’s true, these people have really missed a basic correlation.

  56. singleman wrote:

    But forcing men to cower? Perhaps it would be better to force men to face up to their responsibilities, especially those who prove unfaithful to their wives.

    If some man is trying to assault me, I want him to cower. I am not going to build up his self-esteem in a moment like that. I want him GONE.

  57. @ singleman:

    I agree with you. If it were written this way: “Please, instill your sons with the resolve to make a woman cower if she must.” I wonder what outrage would ensue?

    Patriarchy is not defeated by equal doses of matriarchy, but by the truth about how God has designed our relationships. (Which is not Complementarianism, either..)

  58. Velour wrote:

    I am honestly glad for their family’s problems and abuse to be exposed.
    Their playbook of authoritarianism and legalism didn’t buy them a healthy family. They lied to make it look that way.

    …They blamed everyone but themselves.

    I’d also say the Duggar fiasco is an example of how Christian patriarchy and/or gender complementarianism are not solutions.

    Further, gender complementarianism / Christian patriarchy are not necessarily any better for families, singles, children, marriages, churches, or society, than is left wing, secular, feminism that some gender complementarians like to complain about.

  59. Nickname wrote:

    Over the years, I’ve heard a couple of different teachers/preachers say that a quiver held a total of five arrows. Can any of you scholars confirm that? If that’s true, these people have really missed a basic correlation.

    In any case, it’s simply dangerous to build an entire theology on a single verse of the Bible. It’s a complete text that needs to be interpreted holistically. But if that thing about the quiver IS true, then these folks just failed “Bible interpretation 101”

  60. So sad, all of it. I want to email Stephen Arterburn at New Life Ministries. I’m sure they could do some fund raising and find plenty of money to get good, truly Christian counseling for both Josh and Anna. And help them start to think for themselves!

  61. Rsingleman wrote:

    ‘Please, instill your daughters with the resolve to make a man cower if he must.’ – Georgia Mom’s open letter regarding Anna Duggar

    I don’t defend Josh Duggar or his conduct in any way, but I wonder if this goes too far in the other direction.

    I believe she is referring to a woman of substance, one who isn’t an enabler, one that isn’t a doormat or wall-to-wall carpeting for a (bad) husband to walk on, and a woman who will stand her ground.
    He will think twice about crossing her.

  62. Former CLC’er wrote:

    So sad, all of it. I want to email Stephen Arterburn at New Life Ministries. I’m sure they could do some fund raising and find plenty of money to get good, truly Christian counseling for both Josh and Anna. And help them start to think for themselves!

    There’s also The Wounded Heart Christian counselor.

  63. Heather wrote:

    @ singleman:

    I agree with you. If it were written this way: “Please, instill your sons with the resolve to make a woman cower if she must.” I wonder what outrage would ensue?

    Patriarchy is not defeated by equal doses of matriarchy, but by the truth about how God has designed our relationships. (Which is not Complementarianism, either..)

    Folks, The Georgia mom who wrote that open letter wasn’t advocating abusive women, but women who wouldn’t be doormats and a husband would think twice about crossing her.

  64. If feel so bad about Anna. Raised and brainwashed in a culture of insularity and oppression, married to someone she barely knew who turned out to be a child abuser and adulterer (given the woman who was paid by Josh to have sex with her’s description of her encounters with Josh it would not surprise me that Anna was a victim of abuse as well). Now it seems that she and her children have been spirited away to a remote location with what appears to be little or no real support to keep them isolated – it sounds more like house arrest. That poor woman must feel like she’s living in hell.

  65. Dee/Deb, the story I linked about ( in moderation) is a bit rough. Sorry, I’ve been an Esquire subscriber for years, started when it was more of a clothes magazine and had pretty good short stories. It’s evolved into a different mag in the last few years..my five subscription runs out in Dec. and won’t renew.

  66. singleman wrote:

    I don’t defend Josh Duggar or his conduct in any way, but I wonder if this goes too far in the other direction.

    I agree with you to the extent that fear should not be part of a marriage on either part nor should instilling fear. Marriage should be about mutual love and respect. I think what I would have said and what we should do is instill self-respect in our daughters *and* sons and also a strong sense of responsibility and compassion. I think we should let them know that we will stand for what is right when things get messy.

    Matriarchy is every bit as toxic as patriarchy. Absolutely.

  67. dee wrote:

    @ K.D.:Dee is pounding her head against the wall. The pugs are starting to look concerned.

    It’s nice that your pugs show concern for your welfare. My cats have no interest in my well-being as long as I am able to feed and pet them.

  68. dee wrote:

    Dee is pounding her head against the wall. The pugs are starting to look concerned.

    In case you need a chuckle, check out the inspirational photos of “Pug O’ War” — pug in battle gear. (Or is it bedazzle gear?) (One and the same.) These may give you crafting ideas for “Tulip, the Theo-Spiritual Battle Pug.” Or suchlike.

    http://lolapug.com/2012/10/31/pug-o-war/

  69. Deb wrote:

    Maybe Josh will be donning their “Cured by the Word” hoodie offered for sale on the Reformers Unanimous website.

    Oh brother. 🙄

    There are even Christian psychiatrists who author books who will tell you that it takes more than Jesus, Bible reading, or prayer to be healed of some problems (and these authors have Bible verses to back up their claims).

    Based on my own experience and observation, too, most people do not get immediately or totally healed of whatever problem they are having (and not from Bible reading, either).

    (In real life, at least. Christian TV shows do regularly feature interviews with Christians who say they got an answer to prayer within two seconds of petitioning God for help.)

  70. May wrote:

    A stint reading the Bible and engaging in manual labour at some Bill Gothard institute is not going to ‘help’ Josh. It didn’t help him before and won’t help him now.

    I agree with everything in your post. This particular comment of yours, I just wanted to say I wonder if this is for Josh at all, or if it is just a means for the parents to say, “See, we did get Josh treatment.”

    It’s a CYA strategy, I think. It makes them look like they’re addressing the problem, which I assume they assume will silence criticism.

  71. OK. I’m perplexed over the whole big picture thing. Over 30 million cheetahs, and Dugger is the ONLY celebrity they’ve duggered up? (Well, maybe Snooki’s hubby, but I haven’t the faintest who Snooki is.) Ed Stetzer is estimating 400 Xian leaders will resign Sunday over this– no celebrity preachers on the list? Unlike Gothard, Phillips, or Jim Bob, I don’t consider Josh a “leader” even amongst quiverfull– just a follower… are there bigger names I’ve missed?

  72. @ dee:

    Their page on depression and suggested “treatment” is pretty bad. Depression page:
    http://rurecovery.wpengine.com/depression-and-anxiety-part-1

    I was diagnosed with clinical depression by psychiatrists at a young age and no longer suffer from it.

    Years of Bible reading, having faith, praying to God about it did not remove it.

    But their page suggests:

    All types of depression have a common spiritual thread – the lack of God’s joy in our lives. God promises to make our joy full, John 15:11. One certain antidepressant in your life is God’s Word. Trust His promise and seek His overflowing joy through:

    #1 Reading the Bible so that you may study it and memorize it, so that you may meditate upon what it says. This is building that personal relationship with our Saviour, Jesus Christ.

    #2 Asking God to fill you with His joy.

    #3 Telling others about the promise of His joy.
    ——–
    They have a page about anxiety too, which is sort of something I still deal with a little bit.

    I hesitate to click on their anxiety page, because it’s probably all about scolding trying to scold you out of anxiety. (Telling you that you are choosing to be anxious because you’re not putting your faith in God, and that having anxiety is sin, etc.)

  73. @ dee:

    P.S. I find this ironic.

    The Duggars are into patriarchy or gender complementarianism, which are, as I’ve said before, nothing but codependency being marketed as biblical gender roles (especially for women).

    Yet this Reformers Unanimous counseling center (or whatever it is) that the Duggars want to send Josh to warns against codependency.

    Out of one side of their mouths, these patriarchal or gender complementarians encourage women to be codependent with men, but then turn around and write pages warning against codependency.

    Like on this page:
    http://reformersrecovery.com/codependency

    Some Christians are both warning against codependency and promoting it, all at the same time.

  74. May wrote:

    As an aside, isn’t it strange that the Botkin sisters haven’t married either?

    Not necessarily.

    I think this article can also apply to evangelicals, Quivering families, etc.:
    What Two Religions Tell Us About the Dating [and Marriage] Crisis
    http://time.com/dateonomics/

    Christians are not running at the brim with single, adult, eligible Christian single men for the single ladies to marry.

  75. Gram3 wrote:

    singleman wrote:

    I don’t defend Josh Duggar or his conduct in any way, but I wonder if this goes too far in the other direction.

    I agree with you to the extent that fear should not be part of a marriage on either part nor should instilling fear. Marriage should be about mutual love and respect. I think what I would have said and what we should do is instill self-respect in our daughters *and* sons and also a strong sense of responsibility and compassion. I think we should let them know that we will stand for what is right when things get messy.

    Matriarchy is every bit as toxic as patriarchy. Absolutely.

    Hi Folks,

    I will say it again: The Georgia Mom who wrote this excellent, in my opinion, personal letter about Anna Duggar for the Mom’s own Facebook page which has gone viral, wrote the letter quickly. It’s not perfect, but I think we get the point. She is not advocating abusive women, but rather women who stand their ground. Maybe she didn’t articulate that perfectly, but the context of her entire letter reveals that.

  76. Gram3 wrote:

    Also if I were Dad Botkin I would probably not want to put my daughters into a position that leaves them so vulnerable to control-freak men like me.

    There was an interesting (and creepy / depressing) study that came out a few months back.

    It surveyed a bunch of men, asking them what traits they would want in the perfect wife vs. prefect daughter.

    I am sorry I don’t remember the details of this survey totally, but it was something like men volunteered that they basically want an air headed sex kitten stepford wife. In other words, they valued beauty as very important in a wife, but not an intellect, etc.

    However, these very same men said if they have a daughter, they don’t give a rat’s behind if the daughter is sexy or not.

    So far as daughters are concerned, they want her to be smart, tough, independent, etc…. qualities that were at odds under the “wife” category.

    These guys want a vapid sex bunny for a wife who will cook them dinner, but they want a daughter who is strong, smart, independent.

    And I would not be the least surprised if all this holds true with gender comp, Christian patriarchal, or Quivering families.

  77. Dave A A wrote:

    are there bigger names I’ve missed

    Has anyone actually checked the list for pastors and spiritual leaders? It would need to be someone from the Christian world – the secular world will recognise Duggars details but not ‘celebrity pastors’ (maybe Driscoll but few others I’d say).

  78. Well, P.S. to my last comment where I said,
    —-
    “And I would not be the least surprised if all this holds true with gender comp, Christian patriarchal, or Quivering families.”
    —-
    At least with some of them.

    Some of the others may be okay with raising equally vapid, weak, daughters. Maybe it depends on the particular family or type of gender complementarianism?

  79. Velour wrote:

    She is not advocating abusive women, but rather women who stand their ground. Maybe she didn’t articulate that perfectly, but the context of her entire letter reveals that.

    Completely agree with you. Her letter was mostly excellent and I wish Anna and her parents would read it.

  80. Dave A A wrote:

    who Snooki is

    I’m afraid to ask that question. How did Ed “Mr. Statistics” Stetzer come up with his estimate, I wonder.

  81. Daisy wrote:

    I wonder if this is for Josh at all, or if it is just a means for the parents to say, “See, we did get Josh treatment.”
    It’s a CYA strategy, I think. It makes them look like they’re addressing the problem, which I assume they assume will silence criticism.

    Yes I think you’re right. It all comes down to outward appearances after all, just like so many of these movements.

    After all, didn’t God say it’s outward appearances that really matter, not the heart? Oh, hang on…

  82. Marsha wrote:

    Josh has had the money to purchase rough sex ($1500 an encounter) until now. He is not getting real treatment and the Duggar gravy train has derailed. Now that he cannot purchase what he wants, what is he going to do?

    I wondered about this too. Where was he getting all this money from to pay for sex romps? From his former stint on the TV show, for working with that Family Values organization?

    But regardless of where it came from, it sure looks like a huge waste of money to me. That’s money his kids and wife could have used.

  83. Daisy wrote:

    All types of depression have a common spiritual thread – the lack of God’s joy in our lives. God promises to make our joy full, John 15:11. One certain antidepressant in your life is God’s Word. Trust His promise and seek His overflowing joy through:
    #1 Reading the Bible so that you may study it and memorize it, so that you may meditate upon what it says. This is building that personal relationship with our Saviour, Jesus Christ.
    #2 Asking God to fill you with His joy.
    #3 Telling others about the promise of His joy.

    Wow…that sounds a lot like “Christian” hedonism.

  84. Daisy wrote:

    I wondered about this too. Where was he getting all this money from to pay for sex romps? From his former stint on the TV show, for working with that Family Values organization?
    But regardless of where it came from, it sure looks like a huge waste of money to me. That’s money his kids and wife could have used.

    Indeed!

  85. NJ wrote:

    She desperately needs to talk to *somebody* without the predetermined agenda of keeping her marriage together at all costs.

    That is an excellent point.

    I see this constantly on forums and from talking with other Christians who have been in abusive or troubled marriages.

    The Christian counselors (or church people / preachers) almost always believe in keeping marriages together at all cost, when the best thing, the wisest, or healthiest thing, may be to advise divorce (especially for the victim). But they seldom believe divorce is an option.

  86. @ Velour:
    I think she wrote what I would have written if I were Anna’s mother or the mother of someone like Anna. Certainly I have felt the emotions she expressed. Maybe strong feelings like that need to be expressed at the same time that we caution against going in the opposite wrong direction.

  87. JeffT wrote:

    If feel so bad about Anna. Raised and brainwashed in a culture of insularity and oppression, married to someone she barely knew who turned out to be a child abuser and adulterer (given the woman who was paid by Josh to have sex with her’s description of her encounters with Josh it would not surprise me that Anna was a victim of abuse as well).

    You might be totally right about that, but the first impression that came to my mind when I read those interviews with the stripper the other day was that Josh Duggar may have a Madonna/Whore view of women.

    He did molest some siblings when he was a kid, so maybe I have this wrong, but I wonder, since his Quivering family basically present this strict view of sex, as well as a view of women as being nothing but baby machines….

    Maybe he views his wife Anna as a good girl, and as only there to be a wife and to have children, so if he wants to get his socks off, sexually speaking, he has to look at dirty pictures and hire call girls?

    Maybe he views sex with the wife as boring and a duty he must perform (to make babies), so if he wants “fun” and purely recreational sex, in his thinking, he has to turn to women for hire?
    There might be something like that going on. Or I could be wrong.

  88. May wrote:

    Has anyone actually checked the list for pastors and spiritual leaders? It would need to be someone from the Christian world –

    Well, there’s always those gossipy watchbloggers… I understand one unverified email belongs to “thepope”.

  89. Uppity Bimbo wrote:

    It’s nice that your pugs show concern for your welfare. My cats have no interest in my well-being as long as I am able to feed and pet them.

    Like this:

    Cat Commercial 2015 Go Get Help It’s What You Do
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3rNIE9zeGQ

    To be fair to Team Cat though, I do occasionally hear of cats who do rescue people. There was a cat in the news last year who saved a little boy who was being bitten by a neighbor’s dog.

    That cat won the “Dog of the Year” award, and the people who issue it scratched out “Dog” on the plaque and wrote in “Cat”.

  90. Gram3 wrote:

    How did Ed “Mr. Statistics” Stetzer come up with his estimate, I wonder.

    He’s been talking to denominational leaders in the US and Canada… will any church discipline be forthcoming?

  91. Gram3 wrote:

    who Snooki is
    I’m afraid to ask that question.

    I just braved a www search– she’s an unreality TV star just like the Duggars. I also see she tweeted w/in the last hour that she’s still happily married– not wearing wedding rings ’cause she needs them resized.

  92. Dave A A wrote:

    will any church discipline be forthcoming?

    Only to the little people;
    Never to the Pastors/Elders.
    Rank hath its privileges.

  93. JeffT wrote:

    Now it seems that she and her children have been spirited away to a remote location with what appears to be little or no real support to keep them isolated – it sounds more like house arrest. That poor woman must feel like she’s living in hell.

    A Mere Woman cannot be permitted to interfere with The Cause.

  94. Gram3 wrote:

    What is wrong with her parents??? Her brother says they are fine with keeping everything as it is.

    Problem? What problem?
    Everything’s Just Fine!

  95. lydia wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Oh they are around in various forms using different language and tactics.

    “You’ll always have Nazis among you,
    You’ll always have Nazis among you;
    Next time they won’t come in brown shirts or boots,
    They’ll come speaking softly in three-piece suits;
    But you’ll always have Nazis among you…”
    — Donna Barr, Desert Peach: The Musical (small-time light opera)

  96. dee wrote:

    He is reportedly being sent to Reformers Unanimous.There he will learn, I am not joking,
    Satan’s Demonic Hiearchial Millitiary Power Structure Part 3
    http://reformersrecovery.com/satans-demonic-hiearchial-millitiary-power-structure-part-3
    Dee is pounding her head against the wall. The pugs are starting to look concerned.

    Might as well send him to Scientology’s scam drug/alcohol rehab, Narconon. He’ll get about as much benefit from NarCONon as he will get from RU. Seriously, what a joke.

  97. NJ wrote:

    If this is the kind of place they are sending Josh, I hate to think of what sort of counselor they must be directing Anna to.
    She desperately needs to talk to *somebody* without the predetermined agenda of keeping her marriage together at all costs.

    I doubt if Anna is getting any real counseling. I suspect she is with “the family” and they are pounding the same-ole-same-ole into her head!

  98. Uppity Bimbo wrote:

    It’s nice that your pugs show concern for your welfare. My cats have no interest in my well-being as long as I am able to feed and pet them.

    One of our dogs, Lizzie (aka Queen Elizabeth I) sticks her nose under my neck and tries to push my head up off of the pillow when my alarm clock goes off. She does the same thing if one of the other dogs wants to go out in the middle of the night. If I die in my sleep, Queen Elizabeth will be the first to know!
    Lizzie also demands ice cream at 9:00 sharp every night!

  99. @ Daisy:

    It’s not just the depriving his family of a lot of money that concerns me. I am wondering if he will be dangerous to Anna or other women and girls now that he cannot pay for his perversion.

  100. In other news:

    Christian Taylor came within 8 cm of Jonathan Edwards’ 20-year-old world triple jump record in Beijing today; wee Dina Asher-Smith qualified fastest for the womens’ 200m final tomorrow, although it’s fair to say that Daphne Schippers was running well within herself and remains the favourite. In point of fact, I’m very interested to see just how fast Schippers can go; she has only this year formally moved from heptathlon to the sprint events, but already she is world class.

    In the long jump, Katerina Johnson-Bompson-Thompson gained some consolation for her disastrous heptathlon (in which, you will recall, she had three no-jumps in the long jump which effectively ended her competition when otherwise she had every chance of a medal). Team USA’s Allyson Felix won her first global title over 400m, her very strong start appearing to induce a rare mistake from Christine Ohuruogu in the process.

    Some fitba’ happened too, but never mind.

    And, of course, That Man Bolt did it again, in rather more style this time.

  101. Dave A A wrote:

    OK. I’m perplexed over the whole big picture thing. Over 30 million cheetahs, and Dugger is the ONLY celebrity they’ve duggered up?

    Dave i have been wondering the same thing. 34 million names and his is the first one anyone picks up on? Now I am waiting to see who the 400 people are Stetzer has predicted. Personally his article kinda read like name dropping, he is in the know and if you knew what he knew you know it all too. I will honestly be surprised if the fall out is as he has predicted. I just don’t think anyone is going to check the list that closely. Maybe I am wrong but that’s what I am thinking.

  102. There were 25 comments n moderation!!!!! I am so sorry. I think it is the subject matter. They were all approved. I haven’t seen it backed up like this for awhile.

  103. dee wrote:

    I think it is the subject matter.

    Track and field athletics is certainly contentious stuff!

  104. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I remember well the light bulbs that went off after reading Lifton’s criteria. I felt sick upon realizing what I had unintentionally allowed to take such control of my life. If I remember correctly, Cindy Kunsman had a similar experience when someone introduced the criteria to her. Thank you for continuing to share it.

    Those criteria from Robert Jay Lifton’s research on “brainwashing” in China during the Cultural Revolution have stood the test of time. From what I’ve seen over the years, it seems like all research studies on “cults” go back to those eight elements in one way or another — and they’ve been around for over 50 years now.

    Meanwhile, it strikes me that we need to keep in mind that Christian books specifically on “spiritual abuse” didn’t start getting published until the early 1990s. So, Lifton’s principles and other patterns discerned as applied to churches and ministries, was relatively new to abuse survivors then — and there are always new waves of survivors to support through sharing such concepts.

    I appreciate what Cindy Kunsman has shared on her Under Much Grace blog and elsewhere. She presents a solid understanding of key concepts like open/closed systems, high-demand religions, bounded choice, totalist institutions, Christian industrial complexes, etc. While some of those sound esoteric, they’re actually the everyday *organizational* sides of spiritual abuse that keep malignant leaders and their cronies and commenders in place — and everyone else subservient.

  105. Marsha wrote:

    @ Daisy:

    It’s not just the depriving his family of a lot of money that concerns me. I am wondering if he will be dangerous to Anna or other women and girls now that he cannot pay for his perversion.

    Agree. He already stalked and molested his five year old sister.

  106. “decisions”, “actions”, “wrong choices”… ANYTHING except to call it for what it is… sin. That says it all.

    They remind me of the 1970’s TV movie, “Boy in the Plastic Bubble” with John Travolta. Keeping children in a “Christian Bubble” does nothing to prepare them for the real world. They haven’t built-up the tools they need to properly handle what is out in the world.

  107. Marsha wrote:

    @ Daisy:

    It’s not just the depriving his family of a lot of money that concerns me. I am wondering if he will be dangerous to Anna or other women and girls now that he cannot pay for his perversion.

    Or…potentially already has been dangerous to other women and girls that we don’t know about

  108. I thought about the Duggar’s while watching Mad Max: Fury Road (Immortan Joe’s cult). I think the popular outrage over / fascination with their hyper-fertility is similar to the reception of polygamous Mormon sects. Both offend / intrigue by touching on deep-seated competitive evolutionary urges.

    I had missed the detail about Josh liking “rough sex,” and had to wonder what that would mean to a guy like him. (Sex where the woman moves too? Full Goatse?) It turns out that this detail came from the stripper he allegedly slept with, not the Ashley Madison site (where his desires were more vanilla), and she meant that he beat her during the act. She had not agreed to this, and reports being scared.

  109. Mitch wrote:

    34 million names and his is the first one anyone picks up on?

    Could it be personal?
    Could it be that the hackers had it out for him in particular?

  110. Mara wrote:

    Mitch wrote:
    34 million names and his is the first one anyone picks up on?
    Could it be personal?
    Could it be that the hackers had it out for him in particular?

    I seriously doubt that the hackers ever even heard of him.

  111. Marsha wrote:

    I am wondering if he will be dangerous to Anna

    Has someone already started a loud, extremely vocal, attention getting “Free Anna” campaign? Complete with explanations of the cultic and mind controlling games of Quiverful/Patriarchy etc? Or is that what we are doing here?

  112. Daisy wrote:

    Marsha wrote:
    Josh has had the money to purchase rough sex ($1500 an encounter) until now. He is not getting real treatment and the Duggar gravy train has derailed. Now that he cannot purchase what he wants, what is he going to do?
    I wondered about this too. Where was he getting all this money from to pay for sex romps? From his former stint on the TV show, for working with that Family Values organization?
    But regardless of where it came from, it sure looks like a huge waste of money to me. That’s money his kids and wife could have used.

    I am just sickened by it. Josh should have been treating his wife to candlelight dinners and a romantic get-away for just the two of them. He obviously had no clue about marital love.

  113. Mitch wrote:

    Now I am waiting to see who the 400 people are Stetzer has predicted.

    I suppose more than 400 church leaders resign on any given Sunday. I think he pulled the figure out of the air. Plus it’s not verifiable. Even if 400 leaders resign due to being on the cheetah list, most would not give the real reason…….
    “I’m overworked and need a sabbatical.”
    “I’ll be tending to family issues.”
    “I’m going on an important missions trip to Bolivia.”
    “God audibly told Grace and me to quit, because a trap has been set.”

  114. Sean wrote:

    Bible interpretation 101

    On Sunday I dined with a Messianic Rabbi and his wife. This rabbi untangles the evangelical misinterpretations for our family, fortunately. An evangelical Talmud, so to speak, has been added to the Gospel Torah, the rabbi concurred.

  115. roebuck wrote:

    Mara wrote:

    Mitch wrote:
    34 million names and his is the first one anyone picks up on?
    Could it be personal?
    Could it be that the hackers had it out for him in particular?

    I seriously doubt that the hackers ever even heard of him.

    The hackers have always wanted Ashley Madison to be taken down and have threatened them for a long time.

    Whom hasn’t heard of the Duggars? They are on tv.

  116. Velour wrote:

    Whom hasn’t heard of the Duggars? They are on tv.

    I hadn’t heard of them before I read stuff on TWW – I don’t do TV.

    In any case, most of these big hacks emanate from foreign (to the US) countries, and who knows how far abroad the infamy of the Duggars has travelled…

  117. Gram3 wrote:

    Question: Do lack of job/social skills and domination of others go hand in hand?
    I wish I were as pithy as you are.

    Dear Gram3, I’ll take this as a compliment: Thank you. However, it is an honest question: Does anyone else think that dominion over people (i.e. hierarchy) substitutes for simply not seeking proper job and relationship skills/success (as in God’s directive to subdue the earth)? It seems that several commenters here have mentioned the legacy in some families of lording it over congregations from generation to generation when proper job/relationship skills would have been in order. (?)

  118. roebuck wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    Whom hasn’t heard of the Duggars? They are on tv.

    I hadn’t heard of them before I read stuff on TWW – I don’t do TV.

    In any case, most of these big hacks emanate from foreign (to the US) countries, and who knows how far abroad the infamy of the Duggars has travelled…

    I don’t have a tv, either. (As the saying goes, if something really big in the news happens, you will hear about it from somebody in three days or less.) The Duggars have gotten a lot of media coverage over the years (online, commercials, magazines that you see in the grocery store checkout line or the 7-11. I have seen them every where and I haven’t had to look for them.

  119. Zla’od wrote:

    It turns out that this detail came from the stripper he allegedly slept with, not the Ashley Madison site (where his desires were more vanilla), and she meant that he beat her during the act. She had not agreed to this, and reports being scared.

    In prostitution-speak, this is called “a freak trick”.
    At which point, the prostie wonders the hard way whether she’s got a serial killer — a lot of them DO prey on prosties.
    Oh, and Josh paid her $1500 to “sleep with her”. In his mind, that probably justifies the freak trick.

  120. Jack wrote:

    I have no doubt that the Duggars will make this into a cash cow. Even if it’s only speaking engagements among the faithful. There’ll be a “restoration”.

    And they can also play the “PERSECUTION!!!!!” card.

  121. @ JYJames:
    It is definitely a compliment. The authoritarians at my most recent former church had not worked in the “real world, with one exception. They are young or youngish and definitely disciples of some people we discuss here and probably hope to have a similar influence at some point. I do not think they have reasonable options to make a living outside of ministry world. They are far too cossetted and revered. Reverence is not something most of us encounter day-to-day, but they do. A couple of them I do not think are very well-educated though they have multiple degrees. They are brittle and prickly, and that, IMO, is due to the fact that they have not developed either the maturity or the thick skin that comes from being in the real world and having your character and ideas and work product judged. Their idea of a hard day is a counseling session with the problem member. Or staff meetings. So, really, I suppose asserting authority over people is one way of gaining some sense of accomplishment. I believe I will not join another fellowship unless the elders are all at least bi-vo since I don’t intend to contribute to the maintenance of spoiled children any longer.

  122. Deb wrote:

    I am just sickened by it. Josh should have been treating his wife to candlelight dinners and a romantic get-away for just the two of them. He obviously had no clue about marital love.

    Only about “Penetrating! Colonizing! Conquering! Planting!”
    Anna was just a penis home and womb to fill Josh’s Quiver breeding the next generation of Duggars. Just like Game of Thrones and its real-world inspiration, royal dynasties.

    Given the report from the $1500 stripper, he likes to beat his women, too.
    This is starting to sound like Ramsey & Sansa from Game of Thrones.

  123. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Oh, and Josh paid her $1500 to “sleep with her”. In his mind, that probably justifies the freak trick.

    While I would put nothing past JD, is this in any way confirmed, or is it just the word of the prostitute? Anyone can say anything, and will for publicity…

  124. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Christian Taylor came within 8 cm of Jonathan Edwards’ 20-year-old world triple jump record in Beijing today…

    I rather doubt this is the same Jonathan Edwards who gets cited by the Calvinistas.

  125. mirele wrote:

    Might as well send him to Scientology’s scam drug/alcohol rehab, Narconon. He’ll get about as much benefit from NarCONon as he will get from RU. Seriously, what a joke.

    Nouthetics,
    Dianetics,
    What’s the diff?

  126. roebuck wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Oh, and Josh paid her $1500 to “sleep with her”. In his mind, that probably justifies the freak trick.

    While I would put nothing past JD, is this in any way confirmed, or is it just the word of the prostitute? Anyone can say anything, and will for publicity…

    Roebuck,

    I find the Duggars have long been guilty of the very thing you said about the stripper.

  127. John wrote:

    Remember the whole Jon and Kate Plus 8 fiasco?
    It’s all part and parcel of a larger Christian celebrity culture. Is there fault on the part of the Duggars?

    Another thing is that a lot of these Christian television programs I watch (I don’t even know why I watch as much Christian TV as I do, but I do), they will have these people on, the Duggars, Duck Dynasty, Kate Plus 8 lady, etc.

    They will sort of present these families or people as though they’re this great example of godly, upstanding role models.

    But then, most of the time within months or years of their guest appearances on these shows, one or more of them will get on TV due to some kind of scandal, like having an affair.

    It almost never fails. The folks who are paraded on Christian TV as being great examples for everyone else almost always have skeletons in their closets.

    There was this one preacher on TBN who seemed so friendly and nice. He had a wife. He died about two, three years ago.

    I never would have guessed it, but it came out after his death that he was a drug addict, and he was using call girls, too. I think he died in a hotel after having just seen a call girl at the hotel.

  128. @ roebuck:

    You’re right, all we have is her word for it. But we do know that JD spent something on the order of 1000 US dollars on the Ashley Madison site (whether or not he ever met a real woman through it), so that aspect checks out.

  129. Velour wrote:

    roebuck wrote:
    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Oh, and Josh paid her $1500 to “sleep with her”. In his mind, that probably justifies the freak trick.
    While I would put nothing past JD, is this in any way confirmed, or is it just the word of the prostitute? Anyone can say anything, and will for publicity…
    Roebuck,
    I find the Duggars have long been guilty of the very thing you said about the stripper.

    The Duggars seem to me to be demented and just so wrong – but that’s not even remotely the point. Was she a stripper, or a prostitute? Or both? The story is quite vague, the allegations quite serious, and I’d like to see some corroborating info, that’s all.

    The point being… Yes, Josh was found on the MA client hacked data. Bad enough.
    Did he hook up with anyone? Most of the women on the site were fictitious – the ratio was something like one woman to every thousand men on AM.

    But now we hear that he beat up a prostitute for $1500? I’d like to see some evidence. God knows, I’m not sticking up for JD, but this thing is getting a life of its own, and it would be good to keep it real.

    I have the sickening feeling that the ‘real’ is quite wretched enough…

  130. Mae wrote:

    Awful to watch a family failing further into an abyss…..and for no reason except their own awful commitment to patriarchy.

    It’s funny you should mention this. These groups totally think that patriarchy for Christian families today is the answer, but if you go back and look at the Old Testament, it created problems for the OT guys.

    Like the stories of the wives who had troubles conceiving, so they told their husbands to sleep with their hand maidens, which then created rivalries between the women, and competition between sons of different mothers, and on and on.

    Patriarchy only created problems for the OT guys, funny that American Christians today think it will solve any of their problems.
    If it didn’t work for the OT guys, what makes them think it will work for them in 2015 U.S.A.? (Rhetorical question)

  131. Deb wrote:

    I am just sickened by it. Josh should have been treating his wife to candlelight dinners and a romantic get-away for just the two of them. He obviously had no clue about marital love.

    I agree. I would imagine his wife is feeling a mixture of things, but some of them might be feeling unwanted and heartbroken. I know if I ever marry, I’d want my spouse to consider me to be his best friend.

    I’d want him to be loyal. I would be heartbroken and have a huge sense of betrayal if he was using dirty sites and paying hookers and all that.

    Definitely, I think he should have been working on his marriage to Anna (using funds to dine her, date her, etc), rather than pursuing and spending funds on call girls.

    I would love to be married. This guy is fortunate to have a spouse.

    I really do wonder about married people some times, how some of them take their spouse for granted like this. I would be happy to have what they have, but they treat it as though it’s nothing.

    (And I was in a long term serious relationship, engaged to a guy for years, so yes, I know that relationships can be rocky at times.)

  132. Velour wrote:

    I have seen them every where and I haven’t had to look for them.

    Same with me. I never did watch their TV show, but they show up on news sites all the time, and they are sometimes interviewed on regular Christian programming I saw. Then they get in the news constantly over things like Josh molesting his sisters.

  133. roebuck wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    roebuck wrote:
    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Oh, and Josh paid her $1500 to “sleep with her”. In his mind, that probably justifies the freak trick.
    While I would put nothing past JD, is this in any way confirmed, or is it just the word of the prostitute? Anyone can say anything, and will for publicity…
    Roebuck,
    I find the Duggars have long been guilty of the very thing you said about the stripper.

    The Duggars seem to me to be demented and just so wrong – but that’s not even remotely the point. Was she a stripper, or a prostitute? Or both? The story is quite vague, the allegations quite serious, and I’d like to see some corroborating info, that’s all.

    The point being… Yes, Josh was found on the MA client hacked data. Bad enough.
    Did he hook up with anyone? Most of the women on the site were fictitious – the ratio was something like one woman to every thousand men on AM.

    But now we hear that he beat up a prostitute for $1500? I’d like to see some evidence. God knows, I’m not sticking up for JD, but this thing is getting a life of its own, and it would be good to keep it real.

    I have the sickening feeling that the ‘real’ is quite wretched enough…

    According to the news story the woman making the allegations about Josh is in adult entertainment. Stripping, movies, etc.

    By Josh’s own admissions, he did hook up. (I thought it was also via AM.)

    There are all of his dating accounts, including the one where he used a photo of the son of…the CEO of Goldman Sachs. The CEO is a billionaire, an attorney, a Harvard University graduate. His son whose photo was used is also a Harvard grad.

    I have no sympathy for that family. They are arrogant. They have maligned anyone that was doing their job about their family’s abuse: their town’s police chief (a woman) whom the Duggars made vicious attacks about (she was doing her job and following the law), social services whom was required to investigate (they hired an attorney for 19-year old Josh to sue that agency). On and on this family’s arrogance goes. It’s always the fault of somebody else.

  134. Velour wrote:

    By Josh’s own admissions, he did hook up. (I thought it was also via AM.)
    There are all of his dating accounts, including the one where he used a photo of the son of…the CEO of Goldman Sachs.

    Josh also apparently had a Twitter account. I glanced it over once. It was very Xrated, lots of nude photos of adult entertainment women in gross poses, he was tweeting vulgar things at them, etc.

  135. Velour wrote:

    By Josh’s own admissions, he did hook up. (I thought it was also via AM.)

    His mea culpa left it carefully ambiguous as to whether he “cheated” on his wife by means of internet pornography, or an actual affair.

  136. I am certainly hoping the porn actress story isn’t true but she is said to have passed a polygraph test and the Duggars had Josh flown to a ‘treatment center’ the same day they were contacted for comment on her story.

  137. Velour wrote:

    roebuck wrote:
    Velour wrote:
    roebuck wrote:
    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Oh, and Josh paid her $1500 to “sleep with her”. In his mind, that probably justifies the freak trick.
    While I would put nothing past JD, is this in any way confirmed, or is it just the word of the prostitute? Anyone can say anything, and will for publicity…
    Roebuck,
    I find the Duggars have long been guilty of the very thing you said about the stripper.
    The Duggars seem to me to be demented and just so wrong – but that’s not even remotely the point. Was she a stripper, or a prostitute? Or both? The story is quite vague, the allegations quite serious, and I’d like to see some corroborating info, that’s all.
    The point being… Yes, Josh was found on the MA client hacked data. Bad enough.
    Did he hook up with anyone? Most of the women on the site were fictitious – the ratio was something like one woman to every thousand men on AM.
    But now we hear that he beat up a prostitute for $1500? I’d like to see some evidence. God knows, I’m not sticking up for JD, but this thing is getting a life of its own, and it would be good to keep it real.
    I have the sickening feeling that the ‘real’ is quite wretched enough…
    According to the news story the woman making the allegations about Josh is in adult entertainment. Stripping, movies, etc.
    By Josh’s own admissions, he did hook up. (I thought it was also via AM.)
    There are all of his dating accounts, including the one where he used a photo of the son of…the CEO of Goldman Sachs. The CEO is a billionaire, an attorney, a Harvard University graduate. His son whose photo was used is also a Harvard grad.
    I have no sympathy for that family. They are arrogant. They have maligned anyone that was doing their job about their family’s abuse: their town’s police chief (a woman) whom the Duggars made vicious attacks about (she was doing her job and following the law), social services whom was required to investigate (they hired an attorney for 19-year old Josh to sue that agency). On and on this family’s arrogance goes. It’s always the fault of somebody else.

    Still not the point. Did he engage a prostitute for $1500 and proceed to beat her up? This is very serious business, and I’d like to see some evidence. That’s all.

    The point isn’t about the pit of depravity that is the Duggar enterprise, I just want some clarity on this specific issue. That the Duggar family is clearly a broken mess does not justify just saying this and that.

    I’m sure we’ll find out sooner of later. Like I said, I wouldn’t put anything past JD…

  138. @ roebuck:

    I’m afraid that is all the clarity we are likely to get, short of other women appearing out of the woodwork (and then the same questions would arise).

  139. @ roebuck:

    I’m afraid that is all the clarity we are likely to get, short of other women appearing out of the woodwork (and then the same questions would arise).

  140. roebuck wrote:

    I just want some clarity on this specific issue. That the Duggar family is clearly a broken mess….

    @Roebuck,

    There are news reports about what the woman claimed she was paid and what happened. That’s as much clarity as you are likely to find.

    What she got paid seems irrelevant.

  141. roebuck wrote:

    But now we hear that he beat up a prostitute for $1500? I’d like to see some evidence. God knows, I’m not sticking up for JD, but this thing is getting a life of its own, and it would be good to keep it real.

    Not saying this proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt, but I did read that she passed a polygraph test.

  142. Zla’od wrote:

    @ roebuck:
    I’m afraid that is all the clarity we are likely to get, short of other women appearing out of the woodwork (and then the same questions would arise).

    Isn’t that what happened to Bill Cosby?

  143. Daisy wrote:

    These groups totally think that patriarchy for Christian families today is the answer, but if you go back and look at the Old Testament, it created problems for the OT guys.

    Like the stories of the wives who had troubles conceiving, so they told their husbands to sleep with their hand maidens, which then created rivalries between the women, and competition between sons of different mothers, and on and on.

    Patriarchy only created problems for the OT guys, funny that American Christians today think it will solve any of their problems.

    A Jewish friend once commented that this was part of “The Subversive Wisdom of ha-Torah.” Polygyny, honor killings, blood fueds, slavery — all these were part of Semitic tribal culture. Any attempt to speak against them was crazy talk and would get blown off as crazy talk.

    Jayne Cobb: “That’s crazy talk.”
    Doc Simon: “Then let’s talk crazy.”

    But ha-Torah does not forbid them and ha-Tanakh does not speak against them. Directly. Instead, ha-Torah REGULATES them to the point that they’re not practical and ha-Tanakh tells of the ways they can go spectacularly wrong, pointing out their dark sides.

  144. John wrote:

    Remember the whole Jon and Kate Plus 8 fiasco?

    Ah, yes.
    John and Kate Plus 8.
    Which actually had its own Study Bible and ghost-written Celeb Autobiography (in which they described their Christian faith and Christian Family Values).

    Then the sex scandal and divorce broke and those books got pulled from the Christian junk store shelves so fast….

  145. roebuck wrote:

    I seriously doubt that the hackers ever even heard of him.

    My understanding is the parcel of rogues hackers dumped the data from the pack of thieves Ashley about their cheatin’ customers into the dark web, from whence the scumbag tabloid types duggered up— only Josh! Where are all the other celebrities? The athletes? Must be at least a couple notables on Capitol Hill (not referring to the church). Did somebody do some pre-screening or bribing and Dugger slipped through the cracks? Everybody else covered their tracks? Just doesn’t add up. Anyhow, there are no good guys at all, from 80 year-old virgin Gothard to “I did not know her Biblically” Phillips to JB & Michelle to the pedophile trooper to TLC to the monstrous regiment of Madison to to evil hackers to slimy slanderers to the alleged stripper to, in all likelihood, the work camp/reform school.

  146. Chemie wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    All types of depression have a common spiritual thread – the lack of God’s joy in our lives. God promises to make our joy full, John 15:11. One certain antidepressant in your life is God’s Word. Trust His promise and seek His overflowing joy through:
    #1 Reading the Bible so that you may study it and memorize it, so that you may meditate upon what it says. This is building that personal relationship with our Saviour, Jesus Christ.
    #2 Asking God to fill you with His joy.
    #3 Telling others about the promise of His joy.
    Wow…that sounds a lot like “Christian” hedonism.

    Sounds like the blind leading the blind. Imagine a clinically depressed person, trying their best to be obedient because that’s all they know, telling others about the promise of his joy, all the while dying inside.

  147. Daisy wrote:

    NJ wrote:
    She desperately needs to talk to *somebody* without the predetermined agenda of keeping her marriage together at all costs.
    That is an excellent point.
    I see this constantly on forums and from talking with other Christians who have been in abusive or troubled marriages.
    The Christian counselors (or church people / preachers) almost always believe in keeping marriages together at all cost, when the best thing, the wisest, or healthiest thing, may be to advise divorce (especially for the victim). But they seldom believe divorce is an option.

    And the most ironic thing of all? (To me, at least.) Jesus spoke on divorce in the sermon on the mount, and said that sexual immorality was the only acceptable reason for divorce.

    So… sounds like they ought to be helping Anna shed herself of her sexually immoral husband, rather than tightening the shackles.

  148. Daisy wrote:

    Maybe he views his wife Anna as a good girl, and as only there to be a wife and to have children, so if he wants to get his socks off, sexually speaking, he has to look at dirty pictures and hire call girls?

    Maybe he views sex with the wife as boring and a duty he must perform (to make babies), so if he wants “fun” and purely recreational sex, in his thinking, he has to turn to women for hire?

    There might be something like that going on. Or I could be wrong.

    That WAS the dynamic of respectable Victorian upper-middle-class types. Wife as Angel-in-the-House Madonna for legitimate heirs and you find your REAL relationship with a kept mistress or prostitutes.

    Which harks back to Medieval Chivalric Romances (Victorians were very into the Middle Ages) where the Kngiht pledges his True Love to his Lady already married to someone else. Like its pop-culture descendant Game of Thrones, marriage was for political alliance, merging assets, and legitimate heirs for the family dynasty. Full quivers for 200-year plans Because You’re a Lannister.

  149. Daisy wrote:

    Uppity Bimbo wrote:
    It’s nice that your pugs show concern for your welfare. My cats have no interest in my well-being as long as I am able to feed and pet them.
    Like this:
    Cat Commercial 2015 Go Get Help It’s What You Do
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3rNIE9zeGQ
    To be fair to Team Cat though, I do occasionally hear of cats who do rescue people. There was a cat in the news last year who saved a little boy who was being bitten by a neighbor’s dog.
    That cat won the “Dog of the Year” award, and the people who issue it scratched out “Dog” on the plaque and wrote in “Cat”.

    I heard a similar anecdote (news story? It was so long ago, I don’t remember for sure anymore) about a Siamese cat that habitually slept on top of a secondary refrigerator in a garage attached to a house. The cat jumped onto a burglar that was trying to break into the house from the garage, grabbed him by the head and shoulders and employed teeth and claws. The guy ran screaming out into the yard, into a ditch that ran in front of the property, and broke his leg. There he stayed until the police came to arrest him.

    I think the local police association gave the cat an award.

  150. Off-topic, but it looks like the International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention has been overspending a lot. This is pretty big news.

    IMB president David Platt announced Thursday that the agency needs to cut at least 600 missionaries and staff in order to balance its budget. Those cuts are needed to make up for a $21 million deficit for 2015.

    The first of the cuts will come from voluntary retirements, followed by a restructuring. Overall, the IMB could release as many as 800 employees, according to an FAQ posted on the IMB’s website.

    Currently, the IMB has about 450 staff and about 4,700 missionaries overseas, down from 5,600 in 2009. Platt said earlier this year the total number of missionaries would likely drop to about 4,200—a 25 percent decline from 2009.

    Platt also announced plans Thursday to change how the IMB does business.

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2015/august-web-only/southern-baptists-will-cut-800-missionaries-imb-david-platt.html?start=1

  151. Gram3 wrote:

    comes from being in the real world and having your character and ideas and work product judged. Their idea of a hard day is a counseling session with the problem member. Or staff meetings. So, really, I suppose asserting authority over people is one way of gaining some sense of accomplishment.

    Gram3, You are the pithy one! This explains SO MUCH! Exactly! “… asserting authority over people is one way of gaining some sense of accomplishment.” What a picture. It is real.

  152. Are we stymied by symptoms and overlooking the core cause of the issue?

    I’ve wanted to ask this question for quite some time.

    I think there might be a core idea missing from the discussions surrounding the errors in the Duggar/Patriarchal belief system. The things discussed on Wartburg, such as the superiority of men over women, the weird submissiveness of the females, the odd behavioral mannerisms, quiverful…are these merely symptoms of something greater?

    The missing link, I think, is an understanding of what I am convinced is the core error of their viewpoint and theology: Dominionism or Kingdom Now Theology.

    If this theological school of thought was more fully explored and understood, might it serve to explain some of the outlandish thoughts and beliefs and behaviors of this group of “believers”?

    The depths of Kingdom Now Theology is that people like you and I, “normal believers” are not TRUE believers, for if we were TRUE believers, we’d be helping the Lord build His Kingdom on earth now, today, so that He can come back to a perfected church. The reason behind these large families is to build that Kingdom. Without the TRUE believers building an army, a church, a whole huge number of people on earth for Christ, a perfect Bride perhaps, the Lord can not come back because in order to come back, to take His Throne, to do whatever it is they say He will ultimately do, He needs to have his Bride. It’s up to these TRUE believers to build that for Him.

    You and I, since we don’t participate, aren’t seen by them as authentic, real, true members of His Body.

    This is a twisted theology that is often overlooked and ignored because the symptoms are so horrifically jarring and blinding us to its core belief. And maybe we’re only discussing symptoms instead of the core?

    I’d love to hear opinions.

  153. Dave A A wrote:

    Well, maybe Snooki’s hubby, but I haven’t the faintest who Snooki is.

    “Snooki” was a member of the Jersey Shore cast. She was one of several cast members to get arrested while filming the show. That tells you all you need to know about her.

  154. Remnant wrote:

    I think there might be a core idea missing from the discussions surrounding the errors in the Duggar/Patriarchal belief system. The things discussed on Wartburg, such as the superiority of men over women, the weird submissiveness of the females, the odd behavioral mannerisms, quiverful…are these merely symptoms of something greater?

    The missing link, I think, is an understanding of what I am convinced is the core error of their viewpoint and theology: Dominionism or Kingdom Now Theology.

    FWIW, in my opinion, dominionism is part of a cluster of theological principles and practices that seems to show up together in situations like we’re witnessing with the Duggar family. But I don’t think it is the absolute root of what’s gone wrong … I see it as a significant outworking of an even deeper system.

    I do a lot of work analyzing systems and paradigms, so I’m constantly shifting in between different levels of the more invisible elements (like ways we process information, beliefs, and values), to where we start seeing those ways of thinking take shape in our organizations (like in strategies and structures, and processes and procedures,) which lead to the more easily visible aspects (like lifestyles, cultures, and ways we do/don’t collaborate in society). For me, the key to decoding the “spiritual DNA” of an individual or group or movement is found in the deepest part of the paradigm – in the information processing styles, i.e., the epistemologies.

    The outworkings of dominionism are on the surface of the paradigm, where we witness how dominionists interact with others and seek to control society with “biblical truth.” But my hunch is that two aspects of the ways people can process information create the set-up for dominionism: (1) dualism and (2) reductionism. They’re both forms of extreme, absolutistic, black-or-white thinking that don’t seem to get tempered by any other ways of thinking (like paradox, or synthesis) that keep parts connected with one another. Maybe dualism and reductionism are too similar to fuss over, but I tend to think about dualism as dealing more with concepts and reductionism as dealing with systems. Actually, I don’t think I’ve ever encountered someone who is into dominionism who didn’t eventually manifest a strong application of dualism and reductionism.

    At any rate, people with these dominant ways of thinking tend to split anything and everything apart when they shouldn’t be, and then they put value on only one part or group. For instance, men are split from women, adults from children, this race from that one, leaders from laypeople, insiders from outsiders, righteous Christians who should the country versus godless heathens who should not, etc.

    Together, those two excessive thinking forms of dualism and reductionism end up like an epistemological magnet that attracts false principles and sets up false practices. Each of these splitting theologies brings havoc – Patriarchy, Quiverfull, Gothardism, Authoritarianism, Legalism, Dominionism, etc. – consistently creating abusive situations for whichever part of the split gets devalued. As you put it in your comment, they show up in “outlandish thoughts and beliefs and behaviors.”

    Anyway, hope that’s of some help. A few years ago, I wrote something about this that I think might be helpful, about “Calvinistas.” I’ll find it and post what seems to be relevant.

  155. Dave A A wrote:

    Anyhow, there are no good guys at all, from 80 year-old virgin Gothard

    Is there any particular reason to bring up this guy’s virgin status?

    I’m over 40 and still a virgin. There’s nothing wrong with being a 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 yo virgin.

    Gothard may have his issues, but I don’t think they can necessarily be pinned on virginity.

  156. Remnant wrote:

    I’d love to hear opinions.

    I’ll try to come up with an opinion. First, I don’t know anything about the charismatic version of Dominionism which is what I assume you mean by Kingdom Now. My acquaintance is with the Rushdoony Reconstructionists who are/were rabid postmillennialists. They are the remnant of God’s true believers. Their calling is to establish God’s law in the land and thereby secure his blessing on their families and on the country. It is my opinion that Rushdoony’s thinking is the source of the “if my people who are called by my name” prooftexted mantra which is generally associated with Jerry Falwell.

    They are a species of Reformed, though I think most Reformed, even the classic postmillennialists among them, have some very serious issues with them. Their spiritual descendants, the Federal Visionists, are still among us and causing trouble in churches and families because they are elitists if ever there were elitists. And, no surprise, but some Rushdoonyites think the FV guys are nuts. Doug Wilson would be the prime example. Regardless, the Recons/FV take the idea of “covenant” to an extreme, especially covenant children and keeping covenant with God’s law, etc. By having lots of covenant children, they think they will eventually bring God’s law to the land and people will believe and then Christ will come. They place a huge emphasis on the visible church which increases in size with each birth to a family that is in the covenant, and they use military metaphors for the church and also employ Wilson’s famous imprecatory prayers, a notion they picked up from the old Recons.

    Gothard comes from a slightly different stream, but the ideas are similar. I think that the Rushdoonyites and the Gothardites syncretized somewhat in the Christian homeschooling culture, and it is difficult for me to sort them out sometimes.

    Where their thinking intersects is, IMO, the idea that the faithful win God’s favor by keeping God’s law, so there is an overemphasis on the OT because that is where you find God’s law codified, at least for the nation of Israel. The Rushdoonyites, at least, believe in replacement theology and so they think they *are* God’s nation, the New Israel. Gothard has always struck me as more of an old Independent Baptist, but the idea of law-keeping is still there without the idea of covenant children, necessarily. Quiverfull has looked more like Gothardism to me than Rushdoonyism, but the doctrines can be kind of a jumbled mess when you try to put them where you might logically expect them to be, and there is significant overlap in practice though the theological rationales might be quite different.

    Gary North, Rushdoony’s son-in-law, took his dominionism teaching to TBN, IIRC, which I thought at the time was very, very weird. Earl Paul used to teach a form of dominionism and was quite popular for a time until he wasn’t, but I don’t remember if he had some connection with North or not. I don’t know whatever became of that alliance between North, the estranged Rushdoonyite intellectual, and the folks at TBN. It never made sense to me.

    So, lots of kids, isolated subculture, grandiose delusions of their importance in God’s plans, emphasis on outward appearances (sweet countenance), emphasis on maintaining a good reputation whether it is fake or not (don’t give a bad report), staying submissive to your designated authorities (umbrellas of protection or covering), and sanctification by law, law, and more law. Those are the common denominators between Rushdoonyism and Gothardism. Maybe someone else has some info on the charismatic Kingdom Now movement. I had my hands full with these other characters.

  157. Gram3 wrote:

    . And, no surprise, but some Rushdoonyites think the FV guys are nuts. Doug Wilson would be the prime example.

    By which I meant that Wilson is the nut and the Federal Visionist.

  158. refugee wrote:

    Sounds like the blind leading the blind. Imagine a clinically depressed person, trying their best to be obedient because that’s all they know, telling others about the promise of his joy, all the while dying inside.

    I used to have depression, from my tween years until sometime around my late 30s / early 40s.

    And yes, that sort of advice is common in Christian books, sites, sermons, and it doesn’t help. At least, it never helped me. It can actually make you feel worse at times.

    Not only do you still have depression, but that sort of advice makes you feel like a spiritual failure, too.

  159. refugee wrote:

    The cat jumped onto a burglar that was trying to break into the house from the garage, grabbed him by the head and shoulders and employed teeth and claws. The guy ran screaming out into the yard, into a ditch that ran in front of the property, and broke his leg. There he stayed until the police came to arrest him.
    I think the local police association gave the cat an award.

    That is one of the most awesome stories I’ve ever read. 🙂

    Here’s a link about the cat I mentioned up thread:
    2015’s Dog of the Year Award Goes to Tara the Hero Cat
    http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillypets/20150622_PET360_2015___s_Dog_of_the_Year_Award_Goes_to_Tara_the_Hero_Cat.html

  160. @ brad/futuristguy:

    This excerpt is from a post I wrote in 2012, Definition and Description of the Term “Calvinistas” (i.e., those we’d maybe think of as hyper-fundamentalist, absolutistic Neo-Calvinists). Here’s a section from “Idealism, Ideology, and Epistemology.” I edited it slightly to add what sphere of interaction I believe each element most relates with. I left in the sections on dualism, reductionism and dominionism. Here’s the link, if you’re interested in the principles and practices showing up in the other three elements — perfectionism on self and “growth”; partriarchalism on men, women, children, and family; and totalism/authoritarianism on power and system control.

    https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/calvinistas/

    In the case of Calvinistas, their ideological paradigm typically includes the following elements:

    Dualism on concepts and things – a system of black-or-white thinking that constantly splits holistic phenomena into fragments, while valuing certain parts and devaluing others. [The opposite of dualism is holism – considering the whole to be more than the sum of the parts, and that analyzing or dividing something too much can kill its vitality.]

    Reductionism on systems – a system overfocus on particular philosophical elements while intentionally or ignorantly leaving out others. It favors supposed simplicity and clarity over complexity and nuance. In the case of neo-Reformed/Calvinistas, only elements considered “gospel truth” are of importance and thus dominate faith and practice. For instance, the underlying theology of Calvinistas seems to believe that the effects of The Fall severely impact human emotions, making them utterly trustworthy. However, somehow, the mind is not touched to this degree, and so we can accurately apprehend “truth” through rational thought because the mind is not broken like the emotions are. [The opposite of reductionism is being comprehensive – looking at all the elements or dimensions of something, and valuing the parts AND the whole, and keeping the relationships between them intact.]

    […]

    Dominionism on controlling society/culture – a system of attempted comprehensive control over all aspects of the societies, political processes, and cultures in which the Calvinistas live. [The opposite of dominionism is sojourning – being sensitive to the realities that our home as followers of Christ is in Him and with His Kingdom, and that we are here on earth to serve others for Him – not to control them in efforts to convert them to Him.]

    The key personal problem here is that all of these elements are integral parts of a system of legalism and control. And, as the New Testament epistles tell us, the Law always works directly against the Spirit of God. The key social/organizational problem here is that an extensive system of control demonstrated by a Christian leader, ministry, church, or agency legitimately allows people in our communities to consider that entity as a “cult.” And that works directly against the witness of healthy churches and of the Church in those communities.

  161. @ Deb:

    I still have yet to figure out why any of these people used their work e-mail addresses to sign up for this site????

    It’s not hard to get a free web based e-mail account, like with Hot Mail, Yahoo, or whomever.

  162. @ Remnant:

    One of the only things I can say about that at this time is that the Bible explains the kingdom should be grown by spiritual conversion, not by believers having physical descendants, as in Old Testament times.

    And the second part of that is that in New Testament teaching, value is put on remaining single / childless / celibate. Believers under the NT are not all expected or commanded to marry or have children.

  163. The place Josh entered sounds like an old-fashioned penitentiary, so named because prisoners were kept there in order to read Bibles and become penitent. Sounds like a great idea until you realize that there are a lot of nutcases, criminals, and demons who have read the Word of God.

  164. Off-Topic

    A long time reader here. I have a prayer request that is really tearing me up with frustration. Since I am practically a none for the last several years the WW feels like my community of faith. The prayer request has to do with trying to remodel a home for my family. We bought the house and have an architect working on the plans. Our budget was communicated to the architect and now we have the proposal back that is not going to work because of cost. I don’t want the bore everyone with the details, but the financial stress this is putting on us is overwhelming. The designer is a church goer and is totally messing the project up and us. I know this seems so minor but it is causing us tremendous atress and I didn’t know where else to go….

  165. Gram3 wrote:

    @ Velour:
    I think she wrote what I would have written if I were Anna’s mother or the mother of someone like Anna. Certainly I have felt the emotions she expressed. Maybe strong feelings like that need to be expressed at the same time that we caution against going in the opposite wrong direction.

    I think the Georgia Mom’s letter is fine. She wrote it for her own personal Facebook page. She is a Mom to two little girls. She doesn’t want her daughters to be trapped the way Anna Duggar is currently trapped, with few alternatives.
    The Georgia Mom wasn’t writing for The New York Times. As people on her Facebook page read her open letter about Anna Duggar, it spread and went viral – around the world.

  166. mirele wrote:

    Off-topic, but it looks like the International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention has been overspending a lot. This is pretty big news.
    IMB president David Platt announced Thursday that the agency needs to cut at least 600 missionaries and staff in order to balance its budget. Those cuts are needed to make up for a $21 million deficit for 2015.

    I would say this is further proof of the growing population of The Dones, including in the Southern Baptists, that we’ve been hearing about. They are leaving the churches in droves, fed up with the institutional problems (and oppressive doctrines being espoused), they are losing conservative women (who aren’t putting up with their bizarre doctrines), folks are writing their checks, and it’s showing up on the bottom line of the SBC organization.

  167. One reason these cultists can’t find spouses for their grown children is that whenever legalism is involved, it doesn’t lend itself to the process. One family’s legalism may be slightly different than another, so you literally have potential mates sent away because their family watches PG-13 movies, or something silly. It takes grace and acceptance to bond with another human. Legalism kills all that. If you’re too obsessed with what rules the other person adheres to, and their rules are different than yours, they might not be righteous enough and so you go no further. By the way, this was explained to me by an extended family member who got pretty deep in patriarchy circles. His insight was interesting and reliable.

  168. Remnant wrote:

    This is a twisted theology that is often overlooked and ignored because the symptoms are so horrifically jarring and blinding us to its core belief. And maybe we’re only discussing symptoms instead of the core?

    In the homeschool quiverfull circles, you will certainly find Reconstructionists. Rushdoony is called the Father of the Homeschool Movement for a reason. You can see the Duggar’s ties with Reconstructionism via Gothard, teachings of Rushdoony, Doug Phillips, his father Howard Phillips, Doug Wilson (colonize and surrender dude), David Barton, Gary North, etc. This article is really good (and long): http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2013/02/patriarchy-christian-reconstructionsim.html

  169. Velour wrote:

    folks are writing their checks, and it’s showing up on the bottom line of the SBC organization

    ^correction: aren’t

  170. Mitch wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:

    OK. I’m perplexed over the whole big picture thing. Over 30 million cheetahs, and Dugger is the ONLY celebrity they’ve duggered up?

    Dave i have been wondering the same thing. 34 million names and his is the first one anyone picks up on? Now I am waiting to see who the 400 people are Stetzer has predicted. Personally his article kinda read like name dropping, he is in the know and if you knew what he knew you know it all too. I will honestly be surprised if the fall out is as he has predicted. I just don’t think anyone is going to check the list that closely. Maybe I am wrong but that’s what I am thinking.

    As the Bible says, if you dig a ditch for somebody else you are bound to fall into it yourself.

    The Duggars have dug how many ditches for other folks? Their city’s police chief (they wanted her fired and said horrible things about her), their state’s social services, and anybody else who did their job, followed the law, about the Duggar’s abusive son and home life.

    I feel sorry for Anna.

    But who cares how it was found out? It’s true. It serves them right. I have no sympathy for their brand of arrogance. None.

  171. @ refugee:

    Thanks, now you’ve both given me sermon ideas for when I audition for “So You Think You Can Preach.”

    I’m going to preach cat-and-dog complementarianism.

  172. Mara wrote:

    Mitch wrote:
    34 million names and his is the first one anyone picks up on?
    Could it be personal?
    Could it be that the hackers had it out for him in particular?

    Nope. Alot of other people have been brought down too.
    Hackers promised for years to bring down AM if they didn’t shut down

  173. @ Bridget:
    Good observation Bridget, also, I doubt he even had a choice about getting married. He couldn’t exactly say to his mom and dad, well, I think I’ll skip marriage for a decade and go sew my wild oats. He couldn’t because the only thing allowing that whole family to live their lifestyle was the appearance of never wanting to live that way. Go off and do that, and the show would have been broken, the illusion of raising a perfect Christ-centred family gone. How could he “court” if he was off in LA or Florida or, where do Rust Belt southern kids go when they leave Chirstian-ville?, well wherever that is, he couldn’t go there and have all the money he’d grown accustomed to. He had no skills, no prospects.

  174. Daisy wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    Anyhow, there are no good guys at all, from 80 year-old virgin Gothard
    Is there any particular reason to bring up this guy’s virgin status?
    ….
    Gothard may have his issues, but I don’t think they can necessarily be pinned on virginity.

    However would Bill Gothard qualify as a virgin when he sexually preyed upon more than 40 young women.

  175. @ Daisy:
    Patriarchy and polygamy are different. The Quiverfull movement doesn’t agree with polygamy – the source of all these unhappy families in the OT, well, at least not yet, give modern day patriarchy a few more decades and we might… Patriarchy is simply a combo of Greek words meaning “Father Rule” and that is pretty much what it is. In a Patriarchal family, the father is the head. In Ancient Greece and Rome, that Father was the only citizen, so he was the only one with legal power in a family. Also, the Patriarchy was not a young man with a young wife and a few young kids, well, not normally, in the Ancient world, he was a grandfather. I always laugh when people quote that verse (condensed) “wives submit to your husbands, children to your father and slaves to your master” because the image Paul is painting in the Bible is a grandfather with his wife, adult kids and their wives and his slaves/servants all being told to submit to him (as the only person with any legal standing and actually the legal power to decide any one of their fate, they could have their kids or slaves executed if they wanted). So, the question isn’t do wives submit to their husbands, as most young wives still have a father-in-law alive, the question is: do you submit to your father-in-law? When someone says of course not, I just tell them they aren’t taking the Bible literally enough 😉

  176. @ Dave A A:
    It could be that he is trying to ride the wave of the news cycle to get his name in front of his audience. Be relevant. Look informed. It won’t be the first time. Or, he knows all 400.

  177. @ Gram3:
    Earl Paul. Haven’t heard that name since I lived in Atlanta, thirty plus years ago. At that time, Harvester? Church, was a mega church. If I remember correctly, Earl Paul put bishop, or apostle in front of his name.

  178. @ mirele:
    They can start by cutting big salaries of the big cheeses and their jet setting perks like holing up at the dangerous Dubai Hilton.

    But then they are claiming they will add 300, too. Sounds more and more like an attempt to get rid of older missionaries. Replace with young YRR? Typically the YRR were not interested in the mission hardship. They wanted their own church with good salary. But that is becoming a problem.

    I do know they are shaming for more giving. As usual. One thing for sure we won’t get the whole story so we have to read between the lines

  179. @ Val:

    People do tend to submit to power including power within the family; they don’t have to be ancient greeks or romans nor do they do it because Paul said to do it. In families where the old man has tons of cash and/or owns the business or such there is a lot of submitting going on from offspring and employees. In my limited personal observation of people with money this is not an unusual pattern.

  180. @ mirele:
    They can start by cutting big salaries of the big cheeses and their jet setting perks like holing up at the dangerous Dubai Hilton.

    But then they are claiming they will add 300, too. Sounds more and more like an attempt to get rid of older missionaries. Replace with young YRR? Typically the YRR were not interested in the mission hardship. They wanted their own church with good salary. But that is becoming a problem.

    I do know they are shaming for more giving. As usual. One thing for sure we won’t get the whole story so we have to read between the lines@ lydia:
    BTW, I think the main reason the inexperienced Platt was appointed was to draw the young Neo Cals to foreign missions.

  181. @ Velour:
    can I have some links about what the Duggars did (or tried to do) to these good people . . . thanks in any case

  182. Velour wrote:

    However would Bill Gothard qualify as a virgin when he sexually preyed upon more than 40 young women.

    Technical Virgin — never actually put Tab A into Slot B.
    Loophole! Loophole!

    “I did not Know her in the Biblical Sense.”
    — Doug Phillips ESQUIRE

    “It all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.”
    — “Slick Willie” Clinton

  183. Velour wrote:

    Hackers promised for years to bring down AM if they didn’t shut down

    So the Hackers just don’t like cheaters.
    So who is making the big deal about Josh over and above all the others (outside of places like TWW)?

  184. Bunsen Honeydew wrote:

    Legalism kills all that. If you’re too obsessed with what rules the other person adheres to, and their rules are different than yours, they might not be righteous enough and so you go no further.

    The Universe cannot have two Centers.
    Or two One True Ways.

    P.S. Wasn’t there some Christianese Courtship Guru once who posted some 40-page Theological questionnaire he would make all potential suitors fill out as a phase-one screening?

  185. Daisy wrote:

    I still have yet to figure out why any of these people used their work e-mail addresses to sign up for this site????

    “Stupidity is like hydrogen – it’s the basic building block of the Universe.”
    — Frank Zappa

  186. lydia wrote:

    Sounds more and more like an attempt to get rid of older missionaries. Replace with young YRR?

    Perhaps Platt’s friend over at NAMB (Kevin Ezell) should give him a portion of NAMB’s church planting budget of $60 million to offset IMB’s $20 million shortfall. That would mean fewer New Calvinist church plants, but could keep seasoned non-Calvinist missionaries on the foreign field.

  187. @ Val:

    So, the question isn’t do wives submit to their husbands, as most young wives still have a father-in-law alive, the question is: do you submit to your father-in-law?

    My father-in-law, who is still part of my former cult, told me, “When you married my son, you became my daughter.” He not only expected his son to continue submitting to him, but me as well. That’s patriarchy. Funny thing is that the generation who adopted these ideologies were often not submitted to their own parents, because their parents didn’t have the same Godly™ patterns.

  188. @ Max:
    You know that sharing the pot of money is verboten. Remember when SBTS spent millions beautifying the campus for their upcoming anniversary? But at the same time they were laying off young men with families to support. My favorite anonymous commenter made the point that the anniversary beautifying money was in a different pot and could not be touched for any other reason. Even to give these young men time to prepare for devastation. Not a lot you can do out there with a ministry degree. Such is Christian thinking when it comes to money.

  189. okrapod wrote:

    Max wrote:
    keep seasoned non-Calvinist missionaries on the foreign field.
    Who are you kidding here, Max?

    This is the SBTS.
    There is no Christ, there is only CALVIN.

  190. lydia wrote:

    My favorite anonymous commenter made the point that the anniversary beautifying money was in a different pot and could not be touched for any other reason.

    “The LORD’s Money. It is CORBAN.”

  191. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    My father-in-law, who is still part of my former cult, told me, “When you married my son, you became my daughter.”

    Paterfamilials/Herd Bull has Absolute POWER over ALL in his Household/Herd. Wives, Offspring, other Animate Property.

  192. Mara wrote:

    Mitch wrote:
    34 million names and his is the first one anyone picks up on?
    Could it be personal?
    Could it be that the hackers had it out for him in particular?

    “Singled out for PERSECUTION! PERSECUTION For Righteousness’ Sake!! All who live Godly in Christ shall suffer PERSECUTION!!!”
    (You know that’s how the Duggarbots will spin it…)

  193. Mara wrote:

    So the Hackers just don’t like cheaters.
    So who is making the big deal about Josh over and above all the others (outside of places like TWW)?

    When I stopped by the supermarket on the way home from work last night, at least one of the glossy magazines in the checkout line featured Josh Duggar on the cover. I don’t remember which one, nor did I pick it up to read it.

  194. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    My father-in-law, who is still part of my former cult, told me, “When you married my son, you became my daughter.” He not only expected his son to continue submitting to him, but me as well. That’s patriarchy.

    I was never a part of a cult and I am from two or three or more generations back. That said I am trying to figure out what has changed and how.

    Back in the day, and limited of course to my own background, it was usual for the husband to be held accountable to some extent to his parents to make sure his wife ‘did right by’ his mama and daddy. For example, the old folks might not like the way the wife dressed for some reason, but every time the younger couple went over to visit the wife insisted on dressing to antagonize. So grandma would be displeased and would tell grampa that he needed to talk to his son. Grandpa would tell the son that the son’s wife was unnecessarily antagonizing grandma, and he would remind the son that he the son is held responsible for not putting a stop to that. ‘A man is responsible for what goes on in his own home’ was the principle on which this scenario was based. Also, nobody wanted the women to get to fighting so ‘let’s just solve this, can’t we son?’

    It looks to me like the situation you have described cuts the son pretty much out of that loop. The old man apparently wanted direct control over you without having to go through his son. That seems to me like the old man may be trying to emasculate the son, so to speak, by transferring all the power to grandpa. At the same time, comparing the situation I described and the one you described it seems to be pretty much the same thing for the woman/women involved.

    Have I misread what you said? Am I on to something here, are the old men increasingly unwilling to relinquish power to the sons?

    I have not said that any of this meets the expectations of today’s culture, merely that such and thus used to happen.

  195. @ Val:

    I’d be interested to heaf your understanding of what Paul was saying to the believers in Ephesians 5. It definitely appears that he was addressing a Greco-Roman household. It appears that those in the current Patriarchal subculture believe Christian families should still live according to the Greco-Roman standard. But it seems that Paul was addressing a new way of living. Otherwise, why address them at all if he was only repeating how they already lived. To me, the entire point Paul was addressing seems to come earlier in the tchapter, not when he gets to the list of typical Greco-Roman house codes.

  196. @ okrapod:

    It looks to me like the situation you have described cuts the son pretty much out of that loop. The old man apparently wanted direct control over you without having to go through his son. That seems to me like the old man may be trying to emasculate the son, so to speak, by transferring all the power to grandpa.

    That’s exactly it. And that control extended to the grandkids as well. One year my SIL (husband’s brother’s wife) texted me that our FIL wanted her to get all the grandkids together for a Christmas card photo with grandma and grandpa. He didn’t even bother to ask my husband or I about it. He was entitled to it.

    After I married into this family, my friends were no longer a part of my life. Everything centered around my in-laws. After my second child was born, I dared to ask one of my friends to babysit. We later learned from one of my husband’s brothers, who was still living at home at the time, that my in-laws pitched a fit, because the grandparents have the right to babysit. They had been the ONLY ones to babysit until this point.

  197. lydia wrote:

    But then they are claiming they will add 300, too. Sounds more and more like an attempt to get rid of older missionaries. Replace with young YRR?

    This crossed my mind too.

  198. Gram3 wrote:

    Regardless, the Recons/FV take the idea of “covenant” to an extreme, especially covenant children and keeping covenant with God’s law, etc. By having lots of covenant children, they think they will eventually bring God’s law to the land

    If I understand correctly, recons believe Mosaic Law still applies to women. And their believe about covenant children seems to negate Jesus” Great Commission.
    Val wrote:

    So, the question isn’t do wives submit to their husbands, as most young wives still have a father-in-law alive, the question is: do you submit to your father-in-law?

    And this belief negates ” and a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh.”
    mirele wrote:

    Off-topic, but it looks like the International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention has been overspending a lot. This is pretty big news.

    The IMB has been overspending for years. Over the past 6 years, they have spent $210 million in reserve money. Now, the cow has dried up – there are no more reserves. My money is on them cutting mission spending by cutting female staff and female missionaries.

  199. Christiane wrote:

    @ Velour:
    can I have some links about what the Duggars did (or tried to do) to these good people . . . thanks in any case

    Please do some searching on the internet yourself. I don’t have time. It was a top story in the news. I am not sure how you missed all of this about the police report that the police chief and her department had to produce about the Duggar abuse and a Freedom of Information Act request from a news agency.

  200. Mara wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    Hackers promised for years to bring down AM if they didn’t shut down

    So the Hackers just don’t like cheaters.
    So who is making the big deal about Josh over and above all the others (outside of places like TWW)?

    ?

    It’s everywhere in the news. All of the media agencies are covering it. TV, print, internet, radio. The Duggars were scrutinized after the big interview on Fox tv with Megan Kelly a few months back about the sexual abuse in their family.
    News agencies and experts said there had to be more to the story and Josh’s behavior is much more serious than the Duggars claimed.

    By the way, conservative Christian radio talk show host Janet Mefferd’s very good list of questions she would have asked the Duggars if she had interviewed them:
    http://janetmefferd.com/2015/06/questions-questions-what-i-would-have-asked-the-duggars/

  201. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    I still have yet to figure out why any of these people used their work e-mail addresses to sign up for this site????
    “Stupidity is like hydrogen – it’s the basic building block of the Universe.”
    — Frank Zappa

    “There’s no dumb-ass vaccine’ Jimmy Buffett

  202. @ Practical None:

    Wow … that’s an incredibly frustrating situation, and not exactly a minor one since it has to do with where you live and how you make it more livable for your family. I’ve been thinking and praying about your situation as I’ve gone about my morning routine, and hope some kind of relief and/or resolution comes through for you soon! Plus other reminders of God’s care.

    You might find this post encouraging, something I wrote about “His Eye is On the Sparrow” and how the Lord keeps sending provisions and encouragements in unexpected ways, and how they become reminders of His faithfulness. (I lost my job when the economy tanked in late 2008, and I haven’t had a regular position of any kind since.)

    https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2014/11/08/his-eye-is-on-the-sparrow/

    And I just happen to have my Redbird sitting on my computer stand this morning … so perhaps that’ll be a reminder to pray for you, too. Meanwhile, praying that you receive encouragement and hope in the midst of remodeling your home.

  203. @ Christiane:

    This post over at Spiritual Sounding Board has the flow of some key facts in the case, and there are additional links in the comments to some of the unfolding news items.

    http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/05/25/how-i-would-have-responded-as-a-parent-to-the-josh-duggar-sexual-abuse-scenario/

    Also, *People* magazine has had a lot of news articles on the Duggars the past months, so that’d be a good source to search. It was like some new and horrible detail came out every week, starting in the last part of May.

  204. @ Practical None:
    How much work has been done thus far??? Is it too far along for you to stop the remodeling process and search for other options? Are there other options? Is there a contract involved? Is it too late to drop this “church goer” and talk to someone else?

  205. @ Practical None:

    Oh,my. One thing to remember: it is your house and your money and yours to say how things will be. He is, to that extent, your temporary employee. Or, he is the merchant trying to sell his intellectual product and you are the potential buyer. Either way you hold the power; use it. The only thing that you owe the architect is whatever you promised him, like payment for the work he has done. You do not owe him that you will do what he has proposed; never mind where he goes to church. Don’t let anybody bully you-ever-in church or out of church.

    Repeat after me: Thank you so much for your work; here is what I promised you; now get lost.

  206. Remnant wrote:

    I’d love to hear opinions

    I know exactly where you are coming from. The difference I see is that the Dominionists/ Reconstructionist want to build a New Jerusalem of sorts and LEAD it. It is about power for them. Making people conform to their view, their interpretations, etc. They are not that different from the Soviet Oligarchs party is everything. Doctrine over people.

    ON the other side of this continuum– some want to convince us there can be no justice here and we are to pine away for Jesus to come back. In the meantime, we cannot do much because we are evil and sinning all the time or we are helpless.

    I honestly believe the resurrection was not only about conquering death but also conquering evil’s hold on us. I believe it is about “new life” now. Being a new creation now and that is possible synergistically with the indwelling Holy Spirit. It is hard, though. Not trying to make it sound easy.

    When you see the words “Kingdom of God” and Kingdom of Heaven in the Gospels, it was referring to the “now”. Not another realm in another time. Jesus was/is the kingdom of God/heaven. And now He is to live within us as believers.

    I think, we as believers are to reflect Jesus Christ back out into the world. This does not mean human power over others. Quite the opposite. But we all know that love is incredibly powerful. And love is so many things: justice for the oppressed, compassion, mercy, protection from those who do evil, etc.

    I believe that Jesus Christ prefers a composite society. Where best to be salt and light? How could someone be salt and light in say, 1549 Geneva? By rebelling against the “Christian” leaders? Being a professing “Christian” was mandatory. Not a lot of room for salt and light, there. :o)

    Jesus spent almost no time bothering with Roman rule which is incredible because that was on every single Jew’s mind. The zealotry of the time was pervasive with all sorts of intrigues going on with the religious leader Jews. That is what I think the sermon on the Mount was about. Stop fighting the occupation and be who you are supposed to be.

  207. mirele wrote:

    Might as well send him to Scientology’s scam drug/alcohol rehab, Narconon. He’ll get about as much benefit from NarCONon as he will get from RU.

    That’s what I thought, too, Mirele. Just like Narconon, including the unscientific, superstitious woo-woo masquerading as treatment, and former patients masquerading as trained staff.

    And just like Narconon, I’m sure it will end in disaster. God help that whole family.

  208. @ Practical None:

    I know this seems so minor but it is causing us tremendous atress and I didn’t know where else to go….

    I’m glad that brad caught your comment. I didn’t see it. I’ll def pray for you. We’re in sort of an opposite predicament from you. My husband is a general contractor, so I relate to the budget issues. It can get out of hand for the contractor as well.

    Have you talked with a general contractor yet? My husband frequently revises proposals to get it as close to the customer’s budget as possible. He will go back and forth between the architect and customer if necessary. If the designer is breaking the budget, you may just need to communicate that to her. If you are hiring her services, then she is there to work for you.

  209. Velour wrote:

    It’s everywhere in the news. All of the media agencies are covering it. TV, print, internet, radio. The Duggars were scrutinized after the big interview on Fox tv with Megan Kelly a few months back about the sexual abuse in their family.

    News agencies and experts said there had to be more to the story and Josh’s behavior is much more serious than the Duggars claimed.

    First, the Duggars had CELEBRITY Name Recognition.
    Second, Josh was already in the news because of a sex scandal. A twofer pedophilia/incest sex scandal. There was already Maximum Spy Interest for Duggar dirt.
    Third, the maximum contrast between their Ozzie & Harriet Perfect Godly Family image and what was coming out. “They’re CHRISTIAN… guess it’s OK to bang your sisters as long as you’re not GAY…”

  210. Lydia wrote:

    I know exactly where you are coming from. The difference I see is that the Dominionists/ Reconstructionist want to build a New Jerusalem of sorts and LEAD it. It is about power for them. Making people conform to their view, their interpretations, etc. They are not that different from the Soviet Oligarchs. Party is everything. Doctrine over people.

    Ask any survivor of Cambodia’s Killing Fields about Perfect Ideology and Doctrine over People. (“In the Name of The People…”)

    And don’t forget Cleansing the Promised Land of the Canaanite Heathen as Is Commanded By GOD in the Book of Joshua. Ask any descendant (if you can find one) of the Massachusett, Narangasett, Pequot, etc.

  211. Bridget wrote:

    It definitely appears that he was addressing a Greco-Roman household. It appears that those in the current Patriarchal subculture believe Christian families should still live according to the Greco-Roman standard. But it seems that Paul was addressing a new way of living. Otherwise, why address them at all if he was only repeating how they already lived.

    St Paul (an experienced Rabbi) was continuing “The Subversive Wisdom of ha-Torah.” Going completely off the Greco-Roman Household Codes was crazy talk; a fish doesn’t know it’s wet. But adapting and regulating and amending those Household Codes in a way that undermines them, introducing the Life of the Age to Come which as it grew would amend those Codes beyond recognition until they conformed to the Kingdom or were no longer practical…

  212. @ Mara:

    It has been somewhat amusing to read SBC pastors going back and forth on this one. The hacking was sin so to read the info dump is sin. Uh wait, the hacking is sin but the info dump is out there but we cannot believe any of it anyway. Err….uh…

    I wonder what they are going to do with the Setzer 400? Hee Hee. Of course, naming names would be a sin. Maybe the 400 pastors who have been publicly embarrassed can finally get really “saved”? Ha! After all, we know truly godly people who tell the rest of us what to believe about Jesus are just sinners, too. Wait! But, but, I know a ton of non pastor Christians who would rather slash their wrists than be a part of something so slimy and deceitful as adultery much less AM. Of course they will be accused of thinking they are “sinless perfection”. And that is a worse sin than just garden variety adultery with a repentance sticker on it.

    There is real humility in continuing to be a big sinner. Ask CJ.

    I am SO GLAD to be out of their world.

  213. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    This looks so much like a dynamic I’ve seen so often in Furry Fandom:
    The Mooch and Sucker Show.
    The “well-groomed, well-rested” CELEBRITY mooch and the haggard, exhausted sucker doing all the work.
    In such cases, the Mooch is usually the Big Name Fan CELEBRITY — with the sucker (or suckers) supporting him and waiting on him hand and foot…

    That reminds me of Shift the Ape and Puzzle the Donkey from “The Last Battle”.

  214. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    St Paul (an experienced Rabbi) was continuing “The Subversive Wisdom of ha-Torah.” Going completely off the Greco-Roman Household Codes was crazy talk; a fish doesn’t know it’s wet. But adapting and regulating and amending those Household Codes in a way that undermines them, introducing the Life of the Age to Come which as it grew would amend those Codes beyond recognition until they conformed to the Kingdom or were no longer practical…

    Great points you and Bridget make. “Submission” would be a step up from obedience as property of the paterfamilias. Mutual submission was subversive and overturning the codes.

  215. okrapod wrote:

    Max wrote:
    keep seasoned non-Calvinist missionaries on the foreign field.
    Who are you kidding here, Max?

    Okrapod, my comment was tongue-in-cheek. I know that wouldn’t fit the long-term strategy of SBC’s current leadership.

  216. Deb wrote:

    I will be looking into the various programs offered by Reformers Unanimous.

    http://www.reformu.com/

    I have noticed their signs at some churches in our area.

    Yes, please do. I noticed Reformers Unanimous cites on their website some astonishing statistics regarding pornography. They state, “Fully 50% of Christian men struggle with addiction to pornography as well as 30% of pastors and Christian women.” Additionally, they claim 75% of all printed pornography eventually falls into the hands of children. Really, I seriously question the accuracy of these statistics.

  217. Joe2 wrote:

    “Fully 50% of Christian men struggle with addiction to pornography as well as 30% of pastors and Christian women.”

    If one substitutes “New Calvinist” for “Christian” in those statistics, I would tend to agree. I don’t think the stats are accurate across Christianity. I’ve heard several young, restless and reformed confess to such “struggles.” There’s a disconnect with Holy Spirit conviction and repentance in NC ranks, since so little emphasis is given in their teaching to the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit. Thus, instead of accessing the power to overcome temptation by the Spirit, they are overcome by the flesh.

  218. Practical None wrote:

    Our budget was communicated to the architect and now we have the proposal back that is not going to work because of cost.

    If you gave the architect a budget, the architect should deliver a design that will work within that budget. That’s part of their job, and they need to go back to the drawing board/computer and come up with a design or product selection that will work. Not what they think would be really a cool idea but something that will work. And you may need to be flexible about what your desires are to make it work in your budget. Also, your builder/contractor/remodeler should be able to give you some good ideas about how to cut costs without sacrificing utility. It sounds like you need to have a 3-way meeting with a firm budget in hand. I hope you have a contract with the architect that spells out his/her responsibilities. Church-goer or not.

  219. Joe2 wrote:

    Additionally, they claim 75% of all printed pornography eventually falls into the hands of children. Really, I seriously question the accuracy of these statistics

    It could mean that a child simply discovered printed magazines while being in dad’s bedroom or a brother’s.

  220. Has it even been confirmed that Josh is in an RU treatment center? Gawker seems to be the source, but their article only says it’s “probable.”

    If it’s true that he’s in that kind of treatment center, I wonder about a lot of things. The Duggars cannot think they can revive their brand that way. Their brand, and that of the whole movement of which they are a part, was founded on the premise that “If you follow our playbook, we guarantee your kids will turn out right.” It’s billed as “prevention” not merely the “right way.” I think that’s an important distinction to make. The prevention angle is totally kicked at this point. The whole world can see it doesn’t function as “prevention.”

    I am also wondering what would be the reason Josh would consent to entering such a program? When he was a teen he had no choice. As an adult, it’s not going to save his parents’ brand or preserve his ability to be hired by a Christian organization. There is too much taint. Doug Phillips did not retain the ability to rebrand himself, for instance.

    I would think that working for FRC and in Washington would have exposed him to other points of view. I have been out of the loop regarding FRC for many years and have just now looked over their website, so I may be missing significant info. However, it was originally part of Focus on the Family, founded by James Dobson, who was a psychologist. In looking over FRC’s website, though there were quite a few things I disagree with, I didn’t see an “anti-psychology” position. (Not that some working there might not have had it, but it’s not official that I can see.) Focus on the Family was not into nouthetic counseling back in the day. That’s what the RU center sounds like (if he’s there): residential nouthetic counseling.

    So why did he go? Is he still under parental control? Is he in some ways still a true believer in that system and believes it can rehab him? Is he afraid of more complex faith-based approaches? I would think it would be humiliating to go from rubbing shoulders with politicians in Washington and being thought of as the Christian elite to entering a program of manual labor and utter control of one’s every moment. However, maybe part of the issue is that he believes that external control is the only thing that works–or at least that’s all he’s known.

    It is sad because there is faith-based treatment available that includes a deep & complex (not superficial) understanding of what the Bible teaches us about human beings and combines it with an understanding of secular observations of patterns of behavior, knowledge of what does and doesn’t help, etc.

    So many damaged lives.

  221. Daisy wrote:

    Gothard may have his issues, but I don’t think they can necessarily be pinned on virginity.

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Technical Virgin — never actually put Tab A into Slot B.
    Loophole! Loophole!

    This was my point– technically virgin despite “defrauding” dozens of young women– not to blame his behavior on virginity any more than on octogenarianism. (Real word?)

  222. Velour wrote:

    Nope. Alot of other people have been brought down too.
    Hackers promised for years to bring down AM if they didn’t shut down

    Maybe Josh Duggar is one of the few well-known Christian figures to sign up for or use Ashley Madison.

    So I am not totally understanding other people’s suspicion on this thread that it’s weird that JD is the first or only Christian celebrity to be outed by the hack.

    Perhaps other famous Christian figures had the sense not to sign up for AM?

    And does it really matter if there was some kind of agenda to go after Duggar?

    The fact is, Josh Duggar was on the site trolling for affairs, whether or not there’s an anti-Christian, liberal agenda at play to go after him. Atheists and liberals did not force Josh to sign up for the AM site. Josh did that all by himself.

  223. Velour wrote:

    However would Bill Gothard qualify as a virgin when he sexually preyed upon more than 40 young women.

    Someone here can correct me if I am wrong, but Gothard did not have intercourse with those women?

    He sexually harassed them, as in playing unwanted footsie with them and touching their hair? Or was genitalia and other sexual body parts involved?

    Regardless, a ton of people on other spiritual abuse blogs keep referring to Gothard as a virgin or a celibate so there is this perception he is a virgin, and it is implied that

    1. his adult virginity caused him to be a pervert and
    2. he is not allowed to discuss sex or teach about it because he is a virgin

    -both points 1 and 2 I find offensive and stupid.

  224. @ Val:

    They may not be totally identical in practice, but my main point is that patriarchy had its problems in the OT days, so I don’t see how today’s Christians think it’s going to work any better in the year 2015 for them or their families.

  225. @ Abi Miah:

    So why did he go? Is he still under parental control?

    Based on my experience with patriarchy, I say yes. Josh is 27 years old, and the father of 4 children. Why are his statements being released on his mother’s blog? Isn’t he old enough to speak for himself via his own social media? Sources say that Jim Bob is running the show:

    Jim Bob, 50, is said to be using his power to control his eldest son, Josh, and daughter-in-law Anna Duggar following the Ashley Madison hack. Anna, 27, reportedly has had little contact with anyone outside of the Duggar family since news of the scandal broke on Aug. 19.

    http://www.ibtimes.com/jim-bob-duggar-rules-his-family-dictator-using-his-power-control-anna-duggar-after-2069400

  226. May wrote:

    As an aside, isn’t it strange that the Botkin sisters haven’t married either?

    Daisy wrote:

    Christians are not running at the brim with single, adult, eligible Christian single men for the single ladies to marry.

    Yes, it is kind of strange that the Botkin sisters haven’t married either. The Botkin sisters are not typical single Christian ladies. They are well known in their Christian work and have successful ministry. As a result, they have experienced far greater exposure and access to single adult Christian men than the typical single Christian lady. It’s not a numbers game for them, as it may very well be for the typical single Christian lady who has limited choice due to geography.

  227. Christiane wrote:

    can I have some links about what the Duggars did (or tried to do) to these good people . . . thanks in any case

    If you Google for it, you can find links about it, such as…

    Should police chief be fired for releasing Josh Duggar’s juvenile record?
    http://www.foxnews.com/transcript/2015/06/03/should-police-chief-be-fired-for-releasing-josh-duggar-juvenile-record/

    Snippet:
    Critics accuse the Duggar family and friends of trying to sweep this under the rug saying, when Springdale Police took the report back in 2006 the only reason they didn’t further investigate Josh Dugger’s alleged abuse is because of the three statute of limitations had expired.

  228. Mara wrote:

    So the Hackers just don’t like cheaters.
    So who is making the big deal about Josh over and above all the others (outside of places like TWW)?

    Initially, ost of those “making a big deal” out of the Duggar guy in particular have been left wing sites, and people who support the legalization of homosexual marriage.

    They are howling or clapping over the hypocrisy of pro-Family Values and anti-homosexual marriage advocate Josh Duggar being caught in a sex scandal.

    Then other mainstream entertainment magazines got in on the act (such as People magazine), because Josh was part of a widely watched TV show.

    You then had spiritual abuse blogs (normally run by moderate to conservative Christians) start covering this story, because it shows how damaging patriarchal, gender complementarian teachings are to women (keeps them trapped in dysfunctional or abusive marriages), and can possibly negatively impact a young person’s sexuality.

    News outlets who like covering this story from a tech angle have been publishing stories on it, to comment on how there is a lack of good security and privacy on web sites.

  229. Daisy wrote:

    Then other mainstream entertainment magazines got in on the act (such as People magazine), because Josh was part of a widely watched TV show.

    But the conservative Fox tv has given the Duggars a lot of coverage. Jim Bob and Michelle were interviewed about the sexual abuse by Fox’s Megyn Kelly a few months ago.

    Fox’s Sean Hannity has covered this. Lots of conservatives have covered it.

  230. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    P.S. Wasn’t there some Christianese Courtship Guru once who posted some 40-page Theological questionnaire he would make all potential suitors fill out as a phase-one screening?

    HUG, there are several of these things online.

    Ex Fundamentalist sites sometimes publish courtship or dating lists that are ten miles long, filled with all sorts of nit picky questions that a father is supposed to ask a young man who wants to date his daughter.

    Sometimes your less extreme Christian groups publish similar stuff, but their dating lists are just as nit picky, too demanding, and nuts.

    Some fundamentalist colleges or churches even have super nit picky Friendship lists. Friendship lists. Who ever heard of having to fill out paperwork to declare friendship with someone? It’s insane.

    Julie Anne’s arch nemesis, Miano, made one of those lists (for dating/ marriage). Here is a link to it:

    The Man Who Will Marry My Daughter
    http://www.crossencounters.us/2013/08/the-man-who-will-marry-my-daughter.html

    These people create so many hurdles a prospective suitor must jump over to even be in the running, I don’t see how any of their daughters can ever marry (assuming the women even want to marry. Perhaps they want to stay single).

  231. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    But adapting and regulating and amending those Household Codes in a way that undermines them, introducing the Life of the Age to Come which as it grew would amend those Codes beyond recognition until they conformed to the Kingdom or were no longer practical…

    That is what my thinking is on the subject. Which is why I believe the real meat of the chapter is earlier on when Paul begins with the Spirit.

  232. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    My father-in-law, who is still part of my former cult, told me, “When you married my son, you became my daughter.”

    If that had been said in a non-patriarchal context, that could have been very sweet.

    If I married, and the husband’s family considered me their family, I would find that touching… unless they mean to say, they get to control me and dictate my every move, then NO NO NO NO.
    Run for the hills!

  233. Abi Miah wrote:

    So why did he go? Is he still under parental control?

    I hope his wife demanded it before she would even consider reconciliation, however, I have no faith that the place he went to will actually address his issues.

  234. @ Daisy:

    If that had been said in a non-patriarchal context, that could have been very sweet.

    You’re right. It could have. Since my biological family is so dysfunctional, I wish it would have. But, it was intended to convey his place of authority in my life.

  235. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Bunsen Honeydew wrote:
    Legalism kills all that. If you’re too obsessed with what rules the other person adheres to, and their rules are different than yours, they might not be righteous enough and so you go no further.
    The Universe cannot have two Centers.
    Or two One True Ways.
    P.S. Wasn’t there some Christianese Courtship Guru once who posted some 40-page Theological questionnaire he would make all potential suitors fill out as a phase-one screening?

    I seem to remember James and Stacy McDonald had some sort of questionnaire like that (maybe not 40 pages, but it was pretty long).

  236. lydia wrote:

    You know that sharing the pot of money is verboten. Remember when SBTS spent millions beautifying the campus for their upcoming anniversary? But at the same time they were laying off young men with families to support.

    I thought these guys were all about Family Values?

    How does keeping money to buy new shrubs for a campus beautification project help young families pay their bills or put food on the table?

    I’m right wing, generally vote Republican, (so there is no left wing agenda here from me), but I sometimes puzzle over other right wingers, or Christian pro- family groups.

    There was a pro Family Values Republican politician (and/or a Christian pro family values organization) about three years ago who was proposing that struggling families should be cut off food stamps.

    I understand Republicans believe in limited government and what all (which, as one of them, I’m fine with to a point), but a lot of them do squawk about being for families, so suggesting that poor families should be cut off from help like that didn’t seem to mesh too well with their pro-family stance.

    Family Research Council: ‘Nothing more Christian’ than food stamp cuts
    http://www.rawstory.com/2013/09/family-research-council-nothing-more-christian-than-food-stamp-cuts/

  237. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    This is the SBTS.
    There is no Christ, there is only CALVIN.

    There are in fact Calvinist Fan Boys. They even made a rock video about Calvin / Calvinism.

    I do give these guys credit for at least mentioning Jesus a time or two in their song and saying at the end that they “love Arminians too,” but this video gave me the heebie jeebies anyhow:

    The Calvinists – “Limited Atonement” (Lyric Video)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qECTXCWFwE

  238. okrapod wrote:

    Have I misread what you said? Am I on to something here, are the old men increasingly unwilling to relinquish power to the sons?

    No, not at all. The Patriarch keeps control over all the little patriarchs under him, at least until his death. Who inherits the power when he’s gone? Oldest son, I guess.

    So you have a bunch of middle-aged (or older) men who have not been leaders (well, maybe in their homes, but otherwise they’ve been under their father even after they married and moved out), suddenly thrust into leadership when the old man dies.

    Although, in the families of my knowledge, patriarchy is still new enough that these fathers-over-multiple-growing-families are still in their 50s and 60s, so we haven’t reached the next phase yet.

    It’s a control thing. These guys are desperate to keep control, even to stunting the normal development of their adult children. It may be benign in origin (“I don’t want them to make the same mistakes I’ve made”) or if they are of the second or third generation of a godly family, they may be thinking “It’s a poisonous world out there, and I will answer for how I led them,” so they can’t seem to let go. At least, that’s how it seems to me.

  239. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “The LORD’s Money. It is CORBAN.”

    Very good! Great catch.

    Yes, that is like the deal in the Bible where Jesus chewed the religious guys out for taking money from sons and daughters that was meant to go to help struggling elderly parents.

    Most excellent catch, HUG! Smiley face for you: 🙂

  240. Daisy wrote:

    I understand Republicans believe in limited government and what all (which, as one of them, I’m fine with to a point), but a lot of them do squawk about being for families, so suggesting that poor families should be cut off from help like that didn’t seem to mesh too well with their pro-family stance

    My former authoritarian NeoCal senior pastor (patriarch, very conservative) had decried the government while making the most of its handouts. When the car bailout came, he turned in a very old, cheap car to get a new car and a $5000 (?) credit for a new car. His minor children are on state-funded medical care, not private health insurance, despite the fact that both the senior pastor and his wife work and rent an expensive home with a pool.

  241. Joe2 wrote:

    Deb wrote:
    I will be looking into the various programs offered by Reformers Unanimous.
    http://www.reformu.com/
    I have noticed their signs at some churches in our area.
    Yes, please do. I noticed Reformers Unanimous cites on their website some astonishing statistics regarding pornography. They state, “Fully 50% of Christian men struggle with addiction to pornography as well as 30% of pastors and Christian women.” Additionally, they claim 75% of all printed pornography eventually falls into the hands of children. Really, I seriously question the accuracy of these statistics.

    Also, I recently heard the statistic that over 50% of families have problems with molestation. Who in the world is saying this?

  242. Velour wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    I understand Republicans believe in limited government and what all (which, as one of them, I’m fine with to a point), but a lot of them do squawk about being for families, so suggesting that poor families should be cut off from help like that didn’t seem to mesh too well with their pro-family stance
    My former authoritarian NeoCal senior pastor (patriarch, very conservative) had decried the government while making the most of its handouts. When the car bailout came, he turned in a very old, cheap car to get a new car and a $5000 (?) credit for a new car. His minor children are on state-funded medical care, not private health insurance, despite the fact that both the senior pastor and his wife work and rent an expensive home with a pool.

    Hah. Did he get caught in the tax bite that followed after? (I heard that the $5000 was considered taxable income by the IRS.)

  243. refugee wrote:

    No, not at all. The Patriarch keeps control over all the little patriarchs under him, at least until his death. Who inherits the power when he’s gone? Oldest son, I guess.

    Isn’t Josh Jim-Bob’s oldest son (i.e. heir to the throne of House Duggar)?

    That would explain why Anna’s parents are backing the Duggars and keeping her married to Doug (Jim-Bob Junior) — they’re now united by marriage to House Duggar, future High Commanders of Gilead.
    Like House Lannister to House Baratheon.
    Or House Bolton to the last of House Stark.

    P.S. Didn’t Jim-Bob have a Seat in Congress or State Senate at one point? If Arkansas followed California practice, that would be Duggar Family Seat and Josh would inherit it (through gerrymandered election) when Jim-Bob finally retired/stepped down/abdicated.

  244. Velour wrote:

    My former authoritarian NeoCal senior pastor (patriarch, very conservative) had decried the government while making the most of its handouts.

    So did Ayn Rand, who was on both Social Security and Medicare (and had a Rational Objectivist rationalization for both).

    I suspect Her cult followers followed Her example.

  245. @ Practical None:
    I’m sorry you’re having problems with this.

    The only thing or tip or whatever I can offer is to suggest in the future to stick with Non-Christian workers.

    I know that sounds weird, you’d think you could get top quality, honest work from guys who advertise in the phone book with the Jesus fish symbol by their names, but they usually (from what I’ve heard over the years from others), are among some of the worst guys to hire for any job.

    Could you fire the guy you have now and go with a Non-Christian one to finish the job?

  246. Daisy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    However would Bill Gothard qualify as a virgin when he sexually preyed upon more than 40 young women.
    Someone here can correct me if I am wrong, but Gothard did not have intercourse with those women?
    He sexually harassed them, as in playing unwanted footsie with them and touching their hair? Or was genitalia and other sexual body parts involved?
    Regardless, a ton of people on other spiritual abuse blogs keep referring to Gothard as a virgin or a celibate so there is this perception he is a virgin, and it is implied that
    1. his adult virginity caused him to be a pervert and
    2. he is not allowed to discuss sex or teach about it because he is a virgin
    -both points 1 and 2 I find offensive and stupid.

    However, I’ve always found it ironic that he’s held up as an icon for marriage and child-rearing advice, though he never married and had no children of his own.

    Yeah, I get it that a childless person can still be very wise in the ways of relationships with children (Charlotte Mason comes to mind). But Gothard’s advice… it gives the appearance that it was all stuff that he thought up, that sounded good to him, but the field-testing gave mixed results.

    Yeah, Paul gave a lot of marriage and child-rearing advice, too. But at least he was clear (at least sometimes) when it was “I’m speaking” or “this is the Lord” in his writings. Gothard gave the impression that everything he wrote/taught was “of the Lord.”

    I don’t think Gothard got anointed as a present-day apostle, but his followers sure act as if that’s the case.

  247. refugee wrote:

    Also, I recently heard the statistic that over 50% of families have problems with molestation. Who in the world is saying this?

    Are they referring to the sexual abuse statistics? 1 out of 3 girls will be sexually abused before the age of 18 and 1 out of 6 boys will be sexually abused before the age of 18. (33.33% of girls + 16.67% of boys=50% of children will be sexually abused before age 18.)

  248. Max wrote:

    Joe2 wrote:
    “Fully 50% of Christian men struggle with addiction to pornography as well as 30% of pastors and Christian women.”

    If one substitutes “New Calvinist” for “Christian” in those statistics, I would tend to agree.

    Another similarity between Extreme Calvinism and Extreme Islam.
    I heard somewhere that strict Islamic countries have the highest per-capita rates of online porn consumption. Saudi especially, with its oil wealth.

  249. Practical None wrote:

    Off-Topic
    A long time reader here. I have a prayer request that is really tearing me up with frustration. Since I am practically a none for the last several years the WW feels like my community of faith. The prayer request has to do with trying to remodel a home for my family. We bought the house and have an architect working on the plans. Our budget was communicated to the architect and now we have the proposal back that is not going to work because of cost. I don’t want the bore everyone with the details, but the financial stress this is putting on us is overwhelming. The designer is a church goer and is totally messing the project up and us. I know this seems so minor but it is causing us tremendous atress and I didn’t know where else to go….

    That’s not minor–it can be life-altering. Praying for you. <3

  250. Velour wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    Also, I recently heard the statistic that over 50% of families have problems with molestation. Who in the world is saying this?
    Are they referring to the sexual abuse statistics? 1 out of 3 girls will be sexually abused before the age of 18 and 1 out of 6 boys will be sexually abused before the age of 18. (33.33% of girls + 16.67% of boys=50% of children will be sexually abused before age 18.)

    I’m thinking it comes out of ATI somehow, or Gothard’s teachings. It was stated in an online discussion of the Duggars, and a recent conversation I had with an ATI parent gave me the idea that this person thought most families have problems with incest and molestation, and that’s why the ATI ideas about control and prevention are so needed.

    OTOH, I taught our little ones about “good touch” and “bad touch” and that sort of thing… I don’t know if that’s covered in ATI or not.

    I think I absorbed a little of this “prevention” attitude from my non-Christian parents, that “boys have one thing on their mind” (when I reached dating age in the 70s), and yet I didn’t think of every boy I knew as a potential rapist… I wore miniskirts and tube tops and didn’t think I was enticing boys/men to abuse me, but that’s what the purity culture/modesty message teaches.

  251. Lydia wrote:

    Mutual submission was subversive and overturning the codes.

    There are some gender comp Christians who deny that the NT was teaching mutual submission. According to them, submission was a one way deal, and that is wife to husband (or women to men).

  252. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    This looks so much like a dynamic I’ve seen so often in Furry Fandom:
    The Mooch and Sucker Show.
    The “well-groomed, well-rested” CELEBRITY mooch and the haggard, exhausted sucker doing all the work.
    In such cases, the Mooch is usually the Big Name Fan CELEBRITY — with the sucker (or suckers) supporting him and waiting on him hand and foot…

    That reminds me of Shift the Ape and Puzzle the Donkey from “The Last Battle”.

    Probably. The Mooch in the arrangement usually has Champagne-and-Caviar tastes.

  253. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    @ Abi Miah:
    So why did he go? Is he still under parental control?
    Based on my experience with patriarchy, I say yes. Josh is 27 years old, and the father of 4 children. Why are his statements being released on his mother’s blog? Isn’t he old enough to speak for himself via his own social media? Sources say that Jim Bob is running the show:
    Jim Bob, 50, is said to be using his power to control his eldest son, Josh, and daughter-in-law Anna Duggar following the Ashley Madison hack. Anna, 27, reportedly has had little contact with anyone outside of the Duggar family since news of the scandal broke on Aug. 19.
    http://www.ibtimes.com/jim-bob-duggar-rules-his-family-dictator-using-his-power-control-anna-duggar-after-2069400

    Ok, but under the patriarchy that I’ve seen, offspring stay close to the patriarch’s abode. Josh had a job in DC. I guess the psychological control can extend that far. I would have thought the DC gig would have broken him out of the bubble at least a little but maybe not.

  254. refugee wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Bunsen Honeydew wrote:
    Legalism kills all that. If you’re too obsessed with what rules the other person adheres to, and their rules are different than yours, they might not be righteous enough and so you go no further.
    The Universe cannot have two Centers.
    Or two One True Ways.
    P.S. Wasn’t there some Christianese Courtship Guru once who posted some 40-page Theological questionnaire he would make all potential suitors fill out as a phase-one screening?

    I seem to remember James and Stacy McDonald had some sort of questionnaire like that (maybe not 40 pages, but it was pretty long).

    Here they are:
    http://yoursacredcalling.com/blog/courtship-questions-for-potential-suitors/

  255. refugee wrote:

    I’m thinking it comes out of ATI somehow, or Gothard’s teachings

    I don’t really know what goes on in ATI circles and how they deal with sexual abuse.

    I know from the stories I have read of survivors of those churches and families, they have reported a tremendous amount of sexual abuse in those communities. It seems to go with the territory: authoritarian, controlling, no boundaries, submission, no-talk rules = recipe for disaster and abuse.

    The sexual abuse statistics are widely quoted, and known, outside of those circles (50% of children sexually abused, in some form, by the age of 18).

  256. (The following is an example of how well I’ve emulated my husband and followed his leadership. Please take the time to listen to the excerpts I’ve included from this amazing message: https://vimeo.com/71348300)

    Hello Ladies,

    Thank you for being here today! There are so many places you could be in this moment, at this time, but yet here you are, reading my comment. I’m so privileged! (00:00:40-00:01:00)

    May I make an appeal? I’d like to ask just one favor of you, ok? Will you do this for me? After you read this comment, will you return home and spend time thanking your SG Pastor’s Wife for all the hard work she puts into leading you into an understanding of God’s singular design for your life? But do not do this: don’t go back and start bragging about how wonderful I am to the other women in your church. Although I’m sure your pastor’s wife is a decent human being, she no doubt lacks my world class skills, and I don’t want her to feel ashamed of her lack of talent. Also, don’t make the mistake of assuming that just because you read this comment, that we now share an association of any kind, because you’re simply not in my league. (00:01:11-00:06:15)

    Furthermore, ladies, do not add to your daily chores the task of cleaning up after animals. They’re smelly and disgusting – especially dogs – and we don’t why anyone would care to love one. (00:18:54-00:20:00). You won’t see a dog in any of our happy, smiley family photos, and we forbid our children to own one. If they do, we will not visit them.

    Speaking of buying things, I hope you’re all nearly done with your Christmas shopping! You know, I’ve always instructed the SG women to get it done by October, so get a wiggle on! Plus, the more presents you squirrel away, the less likely you are to be de-gifted. My well-stocked Christmas closet provides my entire family with all the immunity we need, even when Junior gets convicted for drunk driving!

    Lastly, and most importantly, let me warn you that if you want to be part of an SG Church, your criticisms aren’t welcomed. We do not need to change – you do. And we base that opinion on our own personal interpretation of a few verses in the bible, which we’ve used to claim infallibility. But rest assured, if you are in an SG church, you will be safe, and you will be joyful. (00:05:30-00:07:17)

  257. Abi Miah wrote:

    I am also wondering what would be the reason Josh would consent to entering such a program? When he was a teen he had no choice. As an adult, it’s not going to save his parents’ brand or preserve his ability to be hired by a Christian organization

    I suspect that he or his family do think sending him in some kind of counseling program can maybe save their brand.

    Or, he can bounce back with a new book or TV show where he says he’s all forgiven by God now, and how the counseling (based on biblical concepts) healed him.

    I’ve seen similar stuff before. Didn’t Rev. Swaggert get caught with prostitutes, but then cried crocodile tears about it during a service, and continued on with his ministry?

    Then you had the TVC defenders screaming and yelling about so what if Root was a pedo, because ‘we’re all sinners aren’t we, so stop picking on Root and TVC’.

    Some Christians are naive and will eat this “I apologize and have repented” stuff up from famous Christians.

    I can see how the Duggars might be able to continue hawking their family name, at least to a (naive) Christian market. I think the Duggars will continued to be disbelieved and doubted by Non-Christians (and non-gullible Christians), though.

  258. Marsha wrote:

    passed a polygraph test

    You know how many people who have engaged in espionage who passed a polygraph test? Look into Aldrich Ames and others…they got through them with no problem. That’s all I am going to say….

  259. Daisy wrote:

    @ Practical None:

    I’m sorry you’re having problems with this.

    The only thing or tip or whatever I can offer is to suggest in the future to stick with Non-Christian workers.

    I know that sounds weird, you’d think you could get top quality, honest work from guys who advertise in the phone book with the Jesus fish symbol by their names…

    A lot of them put the Jesus Fish symbol in their ads to sucker in Christians, i.e.
    Easy Marks.

    And they know “Christian” excuses a LOT of incompetence — “Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged…”, “Who of You is Without SIN?”

    But the one that takes the cake was a comment years ago about a Christainese contractor who not only overcharged for a kitchen(?) remodel and screwed it up royally, but fall back onto the Geraldine Defense — “The Devil Did It!” He literally claimed (with wide-eyed astonishment) Satan sneaked in and screwed up the project, so it wasn’t his fault.

  260. Daisy wrote:

    I’ve seen similar stuff before. Didn’t Rev. Swaggert get caught with prostitutes, but then cried crocodile tears about it during a service, and continued on with his ministry?

    Actually, when his putative denomination tried to discipline him for it, he bugged out and started his own Church with NO ties to any other.

  261. @ Abi Miah:

    Ok, but under the patriarchy that I’ve seen, offspring stay close to the patriarch’s abode.

    That’s how it is in the patriarchal bubble I came from. Since Patriarchy isn’t a specific denomination, I think some areas are a little fluid. A few allow women to obtain some higher education that may benefit them in their future calling as wives and mothers. I read somewhere that Anna has some sort of degree or certificate. Most don’t allow any higher education for women. Some, like my former cult, do not allow higher education for men either. Many encourage the men to be entrepreneurs with their own businesses.

    The sons are expected to follow in Multigenerational Faithfulness, which requires him to adhere to his father’s plans for his life.

  262. refugee wrote:

    But Gothard’s advice… it gives the appearance that it was all stuff that he thought up, that sounded good to him, but the field-testing gave mixed results.

    That sounds like L Ron Hubbard playing “Can You Top This?” with himself.

  263. Velour wrote:

    But the conservative Fox tv has given the Duggars a lot of coverage. Jim Bob and Michelle were interviewed about the sexual abuse by Fox’s Megyn Kelly a few months ago.
    Fox’s Sean Hannity has covered this. Lots of conservatives have covered it.

    Yep, that is true.

    I haven’t been watching Fox news much. Have they been defending the Duggars in this latest scandal (the Ashley Madison hack)?

    I know when it first broke he fondled his sisters, they were falling all over themselves to defend Josh. Even Mike Huckabee jumped on that train.

    Unless I’ve missed it (which is possible), I’ve not yet seen Huckabee, Hannity, and these other guys defend the Duggars over the AM story specifically?

    I’m just wondering, by the way. Although I am a conservative, I don’t have any patience for other conservatives who cover up stuff like this, or who rationalize it.

  264. Velour wrote:

    … 33.33% of girls + 16.67% of boys=50% of children…

    The seriousness of the subject notwithstanding, those numbers actually represent 25% of children. (Girls and boys each represent 50% of children, so ⅓ of girls = 1/6 of children, and 1/6 of boys = 1/12 of children; 1/6 + 1/12 is ¼.)

    Whence comes the claim that ½ of all families have problems with molestation, I don’t know. Statistics like that often generate far more heat than light. The term “problems with molestation” is so vague it could mean almost anything. Does it, for instance, include “sexting” by school bullies or others outwith the home, but which could still affect a whole family? And so on. Regardless of whether 1% or 99% of children are abused, the consequences for any individual are serious enough to justify efforts to detect and (better) prevent it.

    As Vic Reeves once put it: 81% of statistics are made up on the spot.

  265. Daisy wrote:

    I haven’t been watching Fox news much. Have they been defending the Duggars in this latest scandal (the Ashley Madison hack)?

    I have been so busy that I haven’t had time to see it. Not certain.

    Although I am a conservative, I don’t have any patience for other conservatives who cover up stuff like this, or who rationalize it.

    Agreed!

  266. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    You’re right. It could have. Since my biological family is so dysfunctional, I wish it would have. But, it was intended to convey his place of authority in my life.

    Yep, you’re right, coming from that vantage, being told you’re ‘his daughter now’ is creepy and controlling!

  267. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Thanks, Nick.

    The statistics here in the U.S. are from the F.B.I. and other law enforcement sources. They have researched that for a long time, including the under reporting of most crimes. They refer to actual crimes that are written in law.

  268. singleman wrote:

    “Snooki” was a member of the Jersey Shore cast. She was one of several cast members to get arrested while filming the show. That tells you all you need to know about her.

    Phew!! You’ve saved me from having to watch it! 🙂

  269. Velour wrote:

    Are they referring to the sexual abuse statistics? 1 out of 3 girls will be sexually abused before the age of 18 and 1 out of 6 boys will be sexually abused before the age of 18. (33.33% of girls + 16.67% of boys=50% of children will be sexually abused before age 18.)

    What kind of new math is that? Is that like 66.67% of girls will not be abused and 83.33% of boys will not be abused, all before 18, which by their math means that 150% were not abused. Taking that number and adding the alleged 50% who were abused that means that the population of young people who reached age 18, whether abused or not, was 200% of the population of young people who reached age 18.

    Welcome to common core math, folks.

  270. @ refugee:

    I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said there but just ask you to keep in mind this goes both ways.

    Older celibate singles, like me (when we’re not being ignored, which is the norm), get advice on how to be a single, celibate adult at age 35+ from some 55 year old guy who got married at age 22 and who’s been having sex with a wife for decades.

    As a single, celibate adult, I am expected (by Christians) to take advice from married people who are having sex.
    So I don’t think it’s bad or wrong for celibates to toss out their views about marriage and sex to married people.

  271. Undoubtedly, due to the presence of sin in some of you here, I was wrongfully influenced and made a little mistake. The final time listed should have been 01:05:30-01:07:17 in my last comment.

    “No, Digory. Men like me, who possess hidden wisdom, are freed from common rules. Ours, my boy, is a high and lonely destiny.”

  272. okrapod wrote:

    Is that like 66.67% of girls will not be abused and 83.33% of boys will not be abused, all before 18, which by their math means that 150% were not abused

    No, this isn’t common core data. It’s Justice Department data, that has been released every year for years, and FBI data: 1/3 of all girls will be sexually abused by the age of 18 and 1/6 of all boys. (That’s molestations, penetrations, etc. The entire criminal gamut.)

    I think we can all agree, no matter what percentage of children are being abused, that it’s too high.

  273. refugee wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Bunsen Honeydew wrote:
    Legalism kills all that. If you’re too obsessed with what rules the other person adheres to, and their rules are different than yours, they might not be righteous enough and so you go no further.
    The Universe cannot have two Centers.
    Or two One True Ways.
    P.S. Wasn’t there some Christianese Courtship Guru once who posted some 40-page Theological questionnaire he would make all potential suitors fill out as a phase-one screening?
    I seem to remember James and Stacy McDonald had some sort of questionnaire like that (maybe not 40 pages, but it was pretty long).
    Here they are:
    http://yoursacredcalling.com/blog/courtship-questions-for-potential-suitors/

    A Master’s Thesis is easier than filling out that mess

  274. @ Velour:

    I am talking about the dumb *** math they did. And yes, some of the garbage that came home last year for even our smarticle particle kid could easily confuse anybody in such nonsense. So we put her in private school this year, right along with the younger one. That is where I am coming from. The math.

  275. Bob wrote:

    You know how many people who have engaged in espionage who passed a polygraph test? Look into Aldrich Ames and others…they got through them with no problem. That’s all I am going to say….

    So you think that the sex worker lady is a lying mcLiar? I dunno. I don’t see any reason to be hyper skeptical at this point.

    It’s not like Josh Duggar would be the first famous Christian to pay for sex or to have affairs.

  276. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    He literally claimed (with wide-eyed astonishment) Satan sneaked in and screwed up the project, so it wasn’t his fault.

    Oh brother. 🙄

    So, when I hit him with some kind of legal action, I guess I can tell him Satan is behind that, it’s not me?

  277. Velour wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    Is that like 66.67% of girls will not be abused and 83.33% of boys will not be abused, all before 18, which by their math means that 150% were not abused

    No, this isn’t common core data. It’s Justice Department data, that has been released every year for years, and FBI data: 1/3 of all girls will be sexually abused by the age of 18 and 1/6 of all boys. (That’s molestations, penetrations, etc. The entire criminal gamut.)

    I think we can all agree, no matter what percentage of children are being abused, that it’s too high.

    More information: http://arkofhopeforchildren.org/child-abuse/child-abuse-statistics-info

  278. okrapod wrote:

    @ Velour:

    I am talking about the dumb *** math they did. And yes, some of the garbage that came home last year for even our smarticle particle kid could easily confuse anybody in such nonsense. So we put her in private school this year, right along with the younger one. That is where I am coming from. The math.

    Yes, I have read plenty about Common Cores many problems and that even engineers can’t get the problems correct.

  279. Nancy2 wrote:

    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    I agree with you, 1/3 of 1/2 plus 1/6 of 1/2 equals 1/4 of a whole. Do these people mess up the math on purpose????

    I don’t know how the ATI-affiliated group arrived at their number for families dealing with molestations.

  280. okrapod wrote:

    @ Velour:
    I am talking about the dumb *** math they did. And yes, some of the garbage that came home last year for even our smarticle particle kid could easily confuse anybody in such nonsense. So we put her in private school this year, right along with the younger one. That is where I am coming from. The math.

    As a teacher with a math major, I didn’t get along with any of my daughter’s “math” teachers. Some of the teaches wouldn’t even speak to me. When my daughter was in 5th grade, my husband left work and went straight to the school to meet with the math teacher (whose concentration was English Grammer). He didn’t take the time to clean himself up …..He was dressed in full bdu army with his face painted green and black. The instant he walked into the room, the teacher ran out the door.

  281. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    @ Abi Miah:
    Ok, but under the patriarchy that I’ve seen, offspring stay close to the patriarch’s abode.
    That’s how it is in the patriarchal bubble I came from. Since Patriarchy isn’t a specific denomination, I think some areas are a little fluid. A few allow women to obtain some higher education that may benefit them in their future calling as wives and mothers. I read somewhere that Anna has some sort of degree or certificate. Most don’t allow any higher education for women. Some, like my former cult, do not allow higher education for men either. Many encourage the men to be entrepreneurs with their own businesses.
    The sons are expected to follow in Multigenerational Faithfulness, which requires him to adhere to his father’s plans for his life.

    Yeah, it would fit under that. I can see how having a son go to DC to influence politicians would fit into someone’s 200 year plan. How cool for the guy that gets to be the first patriarch! (I think not a small number show lack of such allegiance to their own parents’ vision, even if that vision is as mundane as “We sent you to college and hoped that you would do the same for your children so that all of you had more choices.”) And if Josh went to DC as part of his dad’s plan, I can see how that didn’t break any of the control. It’s really hard trying to wrap one’s mind around all this.

  282. Nancy2 wrote:

    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    I agree with you, 1/3 of 1/2 plus 1/6 of 1/2 equals 1/4 of a whole. Do these people mess up the math on purpose????

    Or did they use 6 as the lowest common denominator?
    1/3 of all girls + 1/6 of all boys are sexually abused before age 17 (FBI/Justice Dept data for years).

    1 x 2 1 3
    — = —– = ——- + ——- = ——– or 50%
    3 6 6 6 6

  283. Velour wrote:

    Yes, I have read plenty about Common Cores many problems and that even engineers can’t get the problems correct.

    I had major problem teaching high schoolers who couldn’t do basic math. Drove me nuts in the public schools where we were ordered to stick to the “core content guidelines”! How can a kid do complex algebraic fractions when he/she can’t even find a common denominator for a pair of simple fractions???

  284. @ Nancy2:

    Currently my daughter (the kids’ mom) teaches special ed in the english department of a large public high school. According to her, the math teachers are up in arms, some have either quit or retired to threatened to do so, and (here is the crucial point) many of the faculty not limited to math faculty are finding ways somehow and some way to put their own kids in private schools.

    We are so really impressed with the Lutheran school where these kids are now, and the kids are working their heads off and loving every minute of it. The list of stuff we have given up to compensate for what this does to the budget is long and long, but so far it is definitely worth it.

  285. Nancy2 wrote:

    @ Velour:
    12 has to be the LCD.

    I don’t know what ATI did to get their numbers, though. That was the original question.

  286. ION:

    On the subject of dubious maths (or “math” as they’re known across the pond) crossing over with bait-and-switch semantics, here is a standard way to escape from a locked prison-cell using only a sheet of paper. It works best when you read it out loud.

    Step 1: Tear the sheet of paper in half.
    Step 2: Put the two halves back together to make a whole.
    Step 3: Put the whole in the door.
    Step 4: Simply climb through the whole and walk away.

    IHTIH.

  287. I saw another headline somewhere else that someone associated with this RU treatment place (or the entire place itself) was involved in a sexual abuse cover up.

    Inside Josh Duggar’s rehab facility
    http://pagesix.com/2015/08/28/inside-josh-duggars-rehab-facility/

    Snippet:
    Sources confirm to Page Six that Duggar, 27, is scheduled to spend a minimum of six months away from his family at the faith-based Reformers Unanimous home, an all-male facility in Rockland, Ill., that deals with treating “sin.”

    Another recent headline:
    Anna Duggar May Not Have Known Everything About Josh Duggar’s Molestation Scandal Before Marrying Him (from IB Times site)

  288. okrapod wrote:

    We are so really impressed with the Lutheran school where these kids are now, and the kids are working their heads off and loving every minute of it. The list of stuff we have given up to compensate for what this does to the budget is long and long, but so far it is definitely worth it.

    Don’t get me wrong, I consider all of the students that I had in my classrooms to be MY kids! But, the last school I taught at was a private Christian school. We had basic guidelines, but teachers were free to meet the students at the students’ knowledge level and bring them up. ~~~ We weren’t required to teach above the heads of the students like so many public school teachers are now forced to do! It was a lot of work with low pay, but I loved it there! I miss teaching something fierce!!!

  289. A question on Michelle Duggar homeschooling all of those children: with only a high school education herself, how is she able to teach all of those children at the level of science, English, social at undies, and math that those kids currently need to master to earn a high school diploma???

  290. ” social at undies” ??? Ahahaha. My iPad auto correct really messed that one up. It should say “social studies”!

  291. There have been a few comments about the mystery of what really goes on in ATI and the Gothardite realm. Bil Gothard didn’t/doesn’t give free access to all his books and material unless you pay up the nose for them. They are not made available on Amazon or the Christian bookstore. It is truly an insular, isolated group in that sense. You don’t find out what it’s all about until you’re “in” and willing to pay some money. In that sense, it reminds me of Scientology, where you pay and pay and pay. . . with more and more being revealed. When you finally get a sense of it all, you’re in too deep.

    Also, regarding the sale of the homeschool material, I believe that there was some sort of contract associated with the use of homeschool materials. They could not be sold to you unless there was some sort of pastoral signing off/approval. So, what this created in practice, what the Gothardite home churches for those who really bought into all his homeschool methodology material. It was yet another layer to isolation and control. I guess what I’m saying is that there was something about the way this was all structured that didn’t allow for someone to buy the Gothard homeschool materials, yet have freedom to attend their local main line denominational church. It’s been years, since I’ve read about all this, but that is what I recall. Gothardism is indeed a cult. The whole thing was structured for secrecy and isolation.

  292. Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Yes, I have read plenty about Common Cores many problems and that even engineers can’t get the problems correct.
    I had major problem teaching high schoolers who couldn’t do basic math. Drove me nuts in the public schools where we were ordered to stick to the “core content guidelines”! How can a kid do complex algebraic fractions when he/she can’t even find a common denominator for a pair of simple fractions???

    I taught economics for a number of years. In Texas, economics is a 12th grade subject…..I wound up teaching simple math before we could do macro. They did not know their ” times tables” they could not do ” long division.” I finally made them stop using calculators in the class until we could add, subtract, multiply and divide on a 5th grade level. Seniors can’t do math…..It’s pitiful.

  293. By the way, Gothardism also teaches that the firstborn is “special”. Yes, it’s true. They get this from all their obsession with OT stuff and Mosaic law and tradition. I have to wonder if part of Joshie’s sick issues have to do something with being “special”, especially when it comes to his parent’s refusal to really own how serious his problem was and let some consequences come down. Gothardites also believe that since the firstborn is special, Satan has a them in his sights. So, regarding this type of help Josh is getting, this is not surprising. Michelle and Jim Bob likely believe that part of their son’s problem was that because he’s so special, Satan had him in the crosshairs. If you believe that the devil made him do it, you also will believe that he can simply pray this away. Yikes! This is so incredibly disturbing. I’m aware of all this because of a family member who was very entrenched in Gothard teaching.

  294. K.D. wrote:

    I taught economics for a number of years. In Texas, economics is a 12th grade subject…..I wound up teaching simple math before we could do macro. They did not know their ” times tables” they could not do ” long division.” I finally made them stop using calculators in the class until we could add, subtract, multiply and divide on a 5th grade level. Seniors can’t do math…..It’s pitiful.

    Good for you for hanging in there with them. I know one wonderful math professor (junior college) and she makes sure that every single student in her class understands the subject, can explain it, do it on the board before the entire class moves on to the math concept.

  295. Velour wrote:

    Good for you for hanging in there with them. I know one wonderful math professor (junior college) and she makes sure that every single student in her class understands the subject, can explain it, do it on the board before the entire class moves on to the math concept.

    Real math teachers have to do that.
    A local junior college is failing miserably because it has no “real” math teachers. In most cases, the is no math teacher at all ~~~ they do the “Pearson’s” programs on the internet, which offers little in the way of instruction and is often incorrect. I know, I’ve tutored young adults. It’s shameful!

  296. Bunsen Honeydew wrote:

    By the way, Gothardism also teaches that the firstborn is “special”.

    How on earth can they teach that or believe it, when God often went against that value to intentionally choose the last born or second born kid over the first?????

  297. Nancy2 wrote:

    Real math teachers have to do that.
    A local junior college is failing miserably because it has no “real” math teachers. In most cases, the is no math teacher at all ~~~ they do the “Pearson’s” programs on the internet, which offers little in the way of instruction and is often incorrect. I know, I’ve tutored young adults. It’s shameful!

    Many of our California junior colleges also use the Pearson programs for students to do online math homework. The students are required (state law) to be taught math in class by a math teacher and to also have the textbooks (even if rented).

  298. Daisy wrote:

    Bunsen Honeydew wrote:

    By the way, Gothardism also teaches that the firstborn is “special”.

    How on earth can they teach that or believe it, when God often went against that value to intentionally choose the last born or second born kid over the first?????

    Primogeniture.
    Firstborn Male is always Heir to the Throne.
    Just like all those Royal and High Noble Families like Douggie ESQUIRE liked to cosplay.

  299. Nancy2 wrote:

    I had major problem teaching high schoolers who couldn’t do basic math. Drove me nuts in the public schools where we were ordered to stick to the “core content guidelines”! How can a kid do complex algebraic fractions when he/she can’t even find a common denominator for a pair of simple fractions???

    “Uhhhh… What’s the App for that?”

  300. Daisy wrote:

    Older celibate singles, like me (when we’re not being ignored, which is the norm), get advice on how to be a single, celibate adult at age 35+ from some 55 year old guy who got married at age 22 and who’s been having sex with a wife for decades.

    Married at 22?
    He married THAT late in life?

  301. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Pretty good. Too bad the young men in patriarchy aren’t just larping GOT.

    “A cold Iron Throne
    Holds a boy barely grown;
    His crown based on lies,
    YOU WIN OR YOU DIE…”

    Since my roomie got me hooked on GOT, every time TWW or a similar blog talks about Patriarchs and their 200-year plans for grabbing and holding POWER, I always think of Tywin Lannister as THE archetype. He is definitely the most widespread pop-culture example.

  302. Velour wrote:

    Many of our California junior colleges also use the Pearson programs for students to do online math homework. The students are required (state law) to be taught math in class by a math teacher and to also have the textbooks (even if rented).

    Yeah, I tutored my daughter and 2 of her classmates through a Pearson’s class that had a classroom teacher 2 days per week. That teacher knitted while the students tried to work! It was the teacher’s last semester before she retired. Good riddance, I say!

  303. Gram3 wrote:

    I’ll try to come up with an opinion. First, I don’t know anything about the charismatic version of Dominionism which is what I assume you mean by Kingdom Now. My acquaintance is with the Rushdoony Reconstructionists who are/were rabid postmillennialists. They are the remnant of God’s true believers. Their calling is to establish God’s law in the land and thereby secure his blessing on their families and on the country. It is my opinion that Rushdoony’s thinking is the source of the “if my people who are called by my name” prooftexted mantra which is generally associated with Jerry Falwell.

    Gram, this comment made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I Googled “Christian Reconstructionism” and immediately screenshotted the Wikipedia article.

    I met a guy on eHarmony a few months ago and began talking to him – great guy, a doctor, really theologically knowledgeable. We had good conversations but were still in the early stage. I went away to work at a camp all summer and God brought a former flame back into my life [just for the summer]. I realized that I wasn’t physically attracted to Dr. eH and wrote him a letter telling him some of my “controversial” views [trying to scare him off]. It didn’t – but his letter back was strange. These were the sorts of issues that we clearly disagreed on [pets, the death penalty] but instead of saying that they were issues, he wrote as if I would be convinced to his viewpoint. “It’s not a big deal” he’d say, but then his explanation of his perspective would be written in a way that showed he clearly disagreed with me and why his view was better.

    In particular that letter talked about how he viewed the OT civil law as awesome…he might have used the term Reconstructionism – not sure, as I didn’t have the internet and at that point was just irritated.

    I wrote him back telling him that the real issue was that I wasn’t over this old flame and didn’t like him as much, that I wanted to end things.
    His letter in response basically accused me of being deceptive [which I thought I was over the other guy] and told me he still hoped I would be his wife and baby mama someday, that he still wanted to pursue me.
    I promptly responded with a curt letter that said that if I said no and he continued to “pursue” me that it wasn’t romantic, it was just disrespectful. Praise Jesus he had the brains to stop.

    Anyway, that Wikipedia article mentioned post-millenialists [which he is] and Cornelius Van Til [who he idolized] and just made me shudder because it described him so well. I had been going back and forth about contacting him even now [not seriously, but the thought crossed my mind] because he seemed like a good catch and a “wise” choice [not the one my heart wanted, but “wise”]. This comment was a Godsend, and affirmation that I made the right choice. I needed to read it, so thank you!

  304. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Married at 22?
    He married THAT late in life?

    Hee. I see what you did there.

    You know what I mean, though. Older virgins/ celibates aren’t supposed to give advice or opine in Christian circles (or Non Christian society) about marriage, sex, or dating.

    But by golly, are all these critics ever accepting of people who have been married and having sex from a young age telling older celibates how to be single and celibate, even if we celibate singles are are over 35 yrs old.

    And most folks who are 30, 40, and older who have been married / having sex for years have no clue what it’s like to be a never married adult past the age of 30. (I’ve only seen a small number of marrieds who grasp what it’s like and are respectful.)

    The ones who don’t get it tend to associate being single and/or celibate with being 12 years old and being in junior high (or with being 20 and in college), and they give dating / sex advice more in tune with what kids need to hear, not adults.

    But we’re (we = celibates /singles) supposed to be fine with that, and it’s not okay for us (single celibate adults over 30) to give advice about marriage, dating, sex (why, it’s down right weird for a celibate to know anything about sex or talk about it, supposedly). It’s such a double standard.

  305. Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Many of our California junior colleges also use the Pearson programs for students to do online math homework. The students are required (state law) to be taught math in class by a math teacher and to also have the textbooks (even if rented).
    Yeah, I tutored my daughter and 2 of her classmates through a Pearson’s class that had a classroom teacher 2 days per week. That teacher knitted while the students tried to work! It was the teacher’s last semester before she retired. Good riddance, I say!

    Man, the year I retired, I so wanted to go there….I didn’t and plugged away to the end….only thing that upset me, I left 9 weeks worth of personal days on the table. ( and the cheap district I worked for would not buy them back.)

  306. @ Sarah:

    Wow there. Sounds like you dodged a bullet with Dr. eHarmony.

    It’s stuff like that which makes me glad I am now open to dating / marrying Non-Christian men. I’d probably not run into as many weirdos.

  307. @ Sarah:

    told me he still hoped I would be his wife and baby mama someday

    More like baby∞ mama. I agree that you dodged a bullet.

  308. K.D. wrote:

    Unless they get Josh actual professional help, down the road, he’s going to doing something similar again….pray all you want, and it might work, for a while, but he’s going to return to his old ways…..this is not the last we’ve heard on this…

    Absolutely. The getting caught “repentance” never shuts off the spigot of deviance.

  309. NJ wrote:

    Hyles-Anderson grads, eh?

    Dodged that bible-college bullet. Course the alternative wasn’t much better.

  310. @ Sarah:
    Your eH story makes me feel like I need a shower! If you would just be “convinced” to his viewpoint, and OT civil law is awesome??? Have you read OT civil law concerning “gasp” WOMEN???
    You didn’t doge a bullet, you dodged a heat seeking missile!!!

  311. Daisy wrote:

    And most folks who are 30, 40, and older who have been married / having sex for years have no clue what it’s like to be a never married adult past the age of 30. (I’ve only seen a small number of marrieds who grasp what it’s like and are respectful.)

    Oh, it’s worse than that.
    A couple years into the marriage and marrieds forget all about what it was like to be single. One wag from a now-defunct blog put it “We Christian Marrieds were BORN Married.”
    This is above and beyond the problem that Marrieds only associate with other Marrieds; when the rest of the Cal Poly Gang married (except for me), they soon grouped married-to-married and left me the only single on the outside. bob & Nancy, Jim & Cindy, Paul & Janet, Ted the Locksmith (I don’t remember his wife’s name) — and me. This was when I had a girlfriend, so everyone expected Me & Ann to be next.

  312. Sarah wrote:

    Anyway, that Wikipedia article mentioned post-millenialists [which he is] and Cornelius Van Til [who he idolized] and just made me shudder because it described him so well. I had been going back and forth about contacting him even now [not seriously, but the thought crossed my mind] because he seemed like a good catch and a “wise” choice [not the one my heart wanted, but “wise”].

    Sounds like he is in a church that is Federal Vision or deeply influenced by that stream of thought. Not all Van Til fans are FV or Recon, but all FV and Recons I’ve ever known are religious about Van Til. IMO their devotion to presuppositionalism feeds their certainty about how they understand the Bible and the world. If the doctor likes Doug Wilson or Peter Leithart, I think you can definitely say you dodged a bullet. There is always the possibility that he might re-think things, but I have not personally seen anyone who was converted to Recon/FV leave it. I’ve seen some born into it leave it, just like with Gothardism or Quiverfull, but not those converted to it.

    You can be sure that the status of women is not very high. Take a look at Doug Wilson’s Federal Husband to get a glimpse of how they see gender “roles” and whether you see yourself fitting into that system. You might be surprised how many guys in “normal” complementarian churches think Wilson is right on. They love him at TgC, for example, and Piper thinks he is fine.

    I’m glad you found my comment helpful, but as always I encourage everyone to study and investigate for themselves. There are occasional days when I am not infallible.

  313. Libby Anne over at Love, Joy, Feminism has done extensive research into North Love Baptist Church, its pastor, Paul Kingsbury and what goes on there. It’s not good. Looks like North Love is supporting a missionary in Bolivia who won’t come home because he might face abuse charges. There are other things as well, too much to detail here.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/08/breaking-leadership-of-josh-duggars-treatment-center-allegedly-involved-in-sex-abuse-coverup.html

  314. Just posted today by Boz Tchividjian: “False narratives of Christian leaders caught in abuse.” Opening paragraph:

    When the abusive behavior of Christian leaders is uncovered, all too often the immediate response is not an unconditional admission or a genuine expression of authentic repentance. Instead, a common response is a new narrative. A false narrative. A narrative that attempts to paint a picture of the situation without any regard for truth. A narrative designed to protect reputations and preserve future incomes. A narrative designed to keep the leaders in the spotlight and the victims out of the way.

    http://boz.religionnews.com/2015/08/28/false-narratives-of-christian-leaders-caught-in-abuse/

  315. Nancy2 wrote:

    I had major problem teaching high schoolers who couldn’t do basic math. Drove me nuts in the public schools where we were ordered to stick to the “core content guidelines”! How can a kid do complex algebraic fractions when he/she can’t even find a common denominator for a pair of simple fractions???

    In Algebra even from square one, your arithmetic will make you or break you.
    Likewise in the Calculus, your algebra will make you or break you.

    Here’s a you tube vid that puts it all into focus, and why the current ideology in Mathematics education needs to end.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1qee-bTZI

  316. @ Daisy:

    Correctomundo! Gothard theology somehow manages to ignore God’s confrontation of cultural norms and see where He turned things upside down. Not only are they like the Pharisees. They are the Pharisees. Yet, this is somehow lost on that whole group.

    It is a sort of romanticization of the OT. They follow all the rules of clean and unclean. If you’ve ever watched the show, they won’t eat pork or shrimp and all that. It’s like they feel, if they did it that way in OT times, it must be “good”. Nevermind that when you consider death and disease, an OT woman didn’t have 19 kids. She would have died well before that. In some ways Gothardism is like the Christian version of being an Orthodox Jew.

  317. Muff Potter wrote:

    will make you or break you.
    Likewise in the Calculus, your algebra will make you or break you.

    I have actually taught simple “factor trees” to college students so that they could do square roots of large numbers with variables and simplify problems involving the quadratic formula.

  318. @ Nancy2:
    One of the older students that I tutored was a church deacon. In hindsight, I sorely regret the fact that I “usurped” his authoritah!

  319. @ Muff Potter:
    Oh my word. That video explains a lot. If they don’t master these things early they are being set up for failure. It is a blackhole.

  320. Muff Potter wrote:

    Here’s a you tube vid that puts it all into focus, and why the current ideology in Mathematics education needs to end.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1qee-bTZI

    I watched it. Uhg! In the school my niece attended thr. 5th grade, they taught the multiplication tables using algorithms ~~ took two years to get her straightened out at another school. That really messed with her head on division! Algorithms can be great, but the students must be mature and well versed in mathematics first!

  321. Abi Miah wrote:

    Has it even been confirmed that Josh is in an RU treatment center? Gawker seems to be the source, but their article only says it’s “probable.”

    If it’s true that he’s in that kind of treatment center, I wonder about a lot of things. The Duggars cannot think they can revive their brand that way. Their brand, and that of the whole movement of which they are a part, was founded on the premise that “If you follow our playbook, we guarantee your kids will turn out right.” It’s billed as “prevention” not merely the “right way.” I think that’s an important distinction to make. The prevention angle is totally kicked at this point. The whole world can see it doesn’t function as “prevention.”

    What strikes me as especially important in this quote is that *all* legalistic systems attempt to promote themselves as a guarantee of specific results — whether that is salvation through works I do, parenting to prevent kids who have problems, programs that fix those who have problems, etc. But at some point, the guarantee breaks down because the Law kills; the Spirit brings life. No one can keep up the behavioral conformity 100% perfectly 100% of the time. An when people fail, appeals to “confession = repentance” don’t work. Confession equals confession; repentance that leads down a road to transformed character requires deep personal work — empowered by the Holy Spirit and encouraged by grace — to keep going on with a radical change of direction and recovery.

    And now we have enough historical datapoints to see the pattern of how the expectations for a perfect life did not stick for the firstborn in the Duggar household — from at least the early 2000 decade. The façades are fracturing, the realities are being revealed, the Gothard-Duggar Industrial Complex is exposing itself for its inability to make anyone mature.

    If there is any hope at all for any who’ve been that immersed in legalism, it is in God’s empowering Spirit and grace — and this is not power so we can keep the external Law, but for internal change so live out the character of Christ and His Kingdom.

  322. @ Sarah:
    Is there a reconstructionist stance on pets, or was this his personal opinion?

    (But of course, once you marry one of these people (if you are female), you immediately lose all personal opinion of your own. Don’t worry! You get to take on all of his opinions instead!

    /sarcasm

  323. Daisy wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Married at 22?
    He married THAT late in life?
    Hee. I see what you did there.
    You know what I mean, though. Older virgins/ celibates aren’t supposed to give advice or opine in Christian circles (or Non Christian society) about marriage, sex, or dating.
    But by golly, are all these critics ever accepting of people who have been married and having sex from a young age telling older celibates how to be single and celibate, even if we celibate singles are are over 35 yrs old.
    And most folks who are 30, 40, and older who have been married / having sex for years have no clue what it’s like to be a never married adult past the age of 30. (I’ve only seen a small number of marrieds who grasp what it’s like and are respectful.)
    The ones who don’t get it tend to associate being single and/or celibate with being 12 years old and being in junior high (or with being 20 and in college), and they give dating / sex advice more in tune with what kids need to hear, not adults.
    But we’re (we = celibates /singles) supposed to be fine with that, and it’s not okay for us (single celibate adults over 30) to give advice about marriage, dating, sex (why, it’s down right weird for a celibate to know anything about sex or talk about it, supposedly). It’s such a double standard.

    One of the best messages I remember hearing on the old Focus on the Family radio show was a presentation by Lucy Swindoll. It wasn’t about marriage, dating, or sex, more about how to live life to the fullest. Amazing woman.

    (sorry if that seems too off topic)

  324. Gram3 wrote:

    There is always the possibility that he might re-think things, but I have not personally seen anyone who was converted to Recon/FV leave it. I’ve seen some born into it leave it, just like with Gothardism or Quiverfull, but not those converted to it.

    We did. Of course, we were led by our teens, and a real fear of them choosing to run away and live on the streets rather than be in a family influenced by such a church any longer.

    I don’t think (and maybe I’m not being fair) a man who is converted to it is likely to leave. He might leave because his woman/women (wife and daughters) are miserable, but he might still be baffled about what is so terrible and destructive about it all.

  325. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    What strikes me as especially important in this quote is that *all* legalistic systems attempt to promote themselves as a guarantee of specific results — whether that is salvation through works I do, parenting to prevent kids who have problems, programs that fix those who have problems, etc. But at some point, the guarantee breaks down because the Law kills; the Spirit brings life.

    What really frustrates me when talking with ATI parents (who may have kids who left, but they and part of their family are still fiercely defending ATI and Gothard and the Duggars), they are so deceptive in their talk. Perhaps self-deceived?

    I mean, I have been told to my face that they never claimed a guarantee. IOW, the Duggars never presented their way as *the* way.

    They agree with me that there are no guarantees, and when I try to tell them that ATI and Gothard’s methods were presented to us as *the* way to raise children to insure godly adults, they deny that they ever said such a thing. And then they put it on me, that I must have misunderstood.

  326. refugee wrote:

    I don’t think (and maybe I’m not being fair) a man who is converted to it is likely to leave. He might leave because his woman/women (wife and daughters) are miserable, but he might still be baffled about what is so terrible and destructive about it all.

    IMHO, I think you are being factual. My husband admits that he doesn’t notice the things that happen, or things that are said, in our church that make me angry because he is a man ~~ doesn’t really pay attention to it. He just doesn’t understand what the big deal is.
    Hello! Hello??? We live in an area that is predominately Caucasian. If Asians, Latinos, Native Americans, or African-Americans had to go to segregated classes before they were allowed to participate in class, it would clearly be racism! It would be unacceptable! But, when females are segregated, it’s just church.

  327. refugee wrote:

    I mean, I have been told to my face that they never claimed a guarantee. IOW, the Duggars never presented their way as *the* way.

    They agree with me that there are no guarantees, and when I try to tell them that ATI and Gothard’s methods were presented to us as *the* way to raise children to insure godly adults, they deny that they ever said such a thing. And then they put it on me, that I must have misunderstood.

    Why, of course we “misunderstood” their words … their problem is, we did not misinterpret their actions, or their meaning. If there is no guarantee, then don’t act like there is one!

    This kind of Law-keeping is always a slippery slope and there are always ways to try to slip out of responsibility when getting caught for not being perfect. I’ve experienced so many kinds of deflections — such as:

    * Bluff for the fluff and directly deny any wrongdoing.

    * Turn it back on the person who questions the legitimacy of the system and/or points out followers’ obvious failures to live up to their own rhetoric (e.g., you’re wrong, you’re bitter, you’re nit-picking, you’re stupid, you’re not seeing the whole picture, you’re not in any position to criticize, you’re ____).

    * Leaders who send subordinates to handle you as the problem so that the person at the top has plausible deniability and person who “handles” you can claim they are only doing their job.

    It’s what Boz Tchividjian was talking about in how people twist and spin the narrative when they get caught so that it ultimately is never their fault. The consequences eventually come home to roost, though. Nothing new about that …

  328. @ refugee:

    So you have a bunch of middle-aged (or older) men who have not been leaders (well, maybe in their homes, but otherwise they’ve been under their father even after they married and moved out), suddenly thrust into leadership when the old man dies.
    Although, in the families of my knowledge, patriarchy is still new enough that these fathers-over-multiple-growing-families are still in their 50s and 60s, so we haven’t reached the next phase yet.

    This concerns me. It’s an untested social experiment that has very real consequences on human lives. It’s not healthy for men to remain under their father’s authority well after the age of majority.

  329. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    A couple years into the marriage and marrieds forget all about what it was like to be single.

    I super detest it when you have a situation like,
    “Hi, I’m Joan! Oh honey, I’m married now, but I so totally commiserate with you never having married past 40. After all, I didn’t get married until I was 29! I never thought it was going to happen.”

    I want to smack those types of people so bad, the ones who think not getting married until 27, 29, or 32 is getting married late in life. Oh spare me.

    The rest of your post is spot on: couples generally exclude singles, they prefer other married couples. This does not register with many married couples until their spouse dies.

    I have seen several letters to Dear Abby that go something like this:
    “Dear Abby. I am 72 years old. My wife Sue died three years ago. Now, all of our married couple friends who used to invite me and Sue over ignore me now. No phone calls, no e mails, no invitations for dinner dates. It’s so lonely.”

    Mmm hmm. Yep. Married couples love to freeze out the never married, divorced, the widowed as a general rule. Yep yep yep.

  330. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    * Leaders who send subordinates to handle you as the problem so that the person at the top has plausible deniability and person who “handles” you can claim they are only doing their job.

    Brad, this is called “The Psychopath with Two Bodies” or “Two Bodies, One Psychopath”:

    * Leader: “I didn’t commit any atrocity; I just made a phone call and the matter was dealt with. My hands are clean.”

    * Subordinate: “I Was Only Following Orders. I’m not responsible for the Orders. My hands are clean.”

  331. so there are 37,000,000 users on ashley madison account and you found so much ‘hypocracy’ in the duggars….. well I give them credit for at least TRYING…… You haven’t even started…… Where did those 37000000 come from? mars or the public school/private school system. there are just too many puppies…. looking for love in the wrong places…. I don’t care if it is a well known name or a man next door to you…. have you asked your neighbor if he’s member? I wouldn’t even worry so much about the patriarchy culture of the duggars…. they were well so known so it is likely that they would fall eventually….

    I would grieve with anna and the issues she has to deal with in being well known yet wanting biblical values in her home…. The patriarchy culture and housewives thingy did NOT damage any woman…..the ashley madison website DID the damage…. all the woman that have to deal with husband’s whose hearts are not with their wives…. that is the sad part…..the patriarchy movement like I said before has never damaged any culture or woman….it is the sin of adultery that comes from within….so outward education (all types of schooling affected by this matter) did not create this issue. Christ says lust, lasciviousness etc….comes from within….

  332. A Yahoo article about Josh’s rehab says the person interviewed at the center says they have an 80% success rate. Oh brother…that’s a really bad sign if they’re spouting that. Way to go Jim Bob. Because you’re so stinkin’ scared of any secular expertise, your son has an even bigger mountain to climb as he fails to get help…again.

  333. Bunsen Honeydew wrote:

    A Yahoo article about Josh’s rehab says the person interviewed at the center says they have an 80% success rate. Oh brother…that’s a really bad sign if they’re spouting that. Way to go Jim Bob. Because you’re so stinkin’ scared of any secular expertise, your son has an even bigger mountain to climb as he fails to get help…again.

    I’d be really shocked if this family could kick it in gear and finally do the right thing.

    As it stands, it’s just more of their stinkin’ thinkin’.

  334. Bunsen Honeydew wrote:

    A Yahoo article about Josh’s rehab says the person interviewed at the center says they have an 80% success rate.

    The same success rate as Scientology’s Narconon!

  335. call a ginger wrote:

    the patriarchy movement like I said before has never damaged any culture or woman…

    No, patriarchy views and practices definitely created pain and problems for men and women in the Old Testament, and they sure as heck create pain and problems for Christians who try to live it out today.

  336. Nancy2 wrote:

    I have actually taught simple “factor trees” to college students so that they could do square roots of large numbers with variables and simplify problems involving the quadratic formula.

    Good stuff Nancy2! How can they be expected to differentiate and simplify a particularly nasty rational function using the quotient rule without the very skills you speak of? Same goes for finding an anti-derivative (if one exists) and using it to integrate on an interval.

  337. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    These criteria for identifying a totalistic paradigm and the thought reform techniques that sustained it were published in the groundbreaking 1961 book, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of “Brainwashing” in China.
    The initial phrase is the exact title Dr. Lifton uses to name the criterion, and the description that follows it is my ultra-brief summary. We’ll get into specifics in the next post.
    1. Milieu Control – restrict what communication modes are allowed.
    2. Mystical Manipulation – appeal to some higher purpose, as set by the leader or organization.
    3. The Demand for Purity – require purity of thinking, that is, with a black-and-white mentality where every view our group holds is absolutely correct.
    4. The Cult of Confession – use a radical level of personal confession to unburden people from their crimes (real or imagined) against the organization and realign them with its principles.
    5. The “Sacred Science” – promote our moral vision as ultimate: Our way of life is the only right one.
    6. Loading the Language – create code words and insider jargon that reduce complex problems to simplistic solutions, and condense categories into judgmental labels.
    7. Doctrine Over Person – require people to conform to our perfect system of truth so that individuality is eradicated and sublime conformity is the sacred norm.
    8. The Dispensing of Existence – exercise the “right” to decide who has the right to exist in public and who needs to be isolated or excommunicated.
    His criteria have since been applied over the years to political organizations and movements – like the cult of Mao in China. They have also been applied to spiritual/religious groups – like the cult of Jim Jones and The Peoples Temple. His approach to understanding totalitarian systems is relevant wherever extreme social coercion is applied to force people toward social conformity. Unfortunately, this includes toxic churches and malignant ministries, where a dystopian paradigm of authoritarian power, fear, and demands for compliance dominate.

    The *Christian* cult I was in would fulfill each of those eight points. Wellspring Counseling Services said it was one of the most toxic cults they had ever encountered. Sometimes I am amazed that I didn’t end up in a psyche ward!

  338. @ Muff Potter:
    You do math, too!!!! Most people think anti-derivatives are something scary going on with the stock market! Function … well, if you can function you must be somewhat rational.

  339. Daisy wrote:

    call a ginger wrote:

    the patriarchy movement like I said before has never damaged any culture or woman…

    No, patriarchy views and practices definitely created pain and problems for men and women in the Old Testament, and they sure as heck create pain and problems for Christians who try to live it out today.

    Yeah, I think the people behind the many specific sad, sad stories at Recovering Grace might disagree. I’m sure you’ll say that patriarchy isn’t responsible for people who took things too far or misapplied concepts. That’s always the excuse. When much of the fruit is bad, you have to look to the tree.

  340. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    @ brad/futuristguy:
    Here’s an excerpt of a post, with a summary list of the eight classic criteria of a mind-control “sociological cult” — which may or may not be religious in nature.
    I remember well the light bulbs that went off after reading Lifton’s criteria. I felt sick upon realizing what I had unintentionally allowed to take such control of my life. If I remember correctly, Cindy Kunsman had a similar experience when someone introduced the criteria to her. Thank you for continuing to share it.

    BTDT: I remember when the light bulbs went off for me as well. It was difficult – very difficult – to face the fact that I had been brainwashed to such an extent.

  341. Marsha wrote:

    Josh has had the money to purchase rough sex ($1500 an encounter) until now. He is not getting real treatment and the Duggar gravy train has derailed. Now that he cannot purchase what he wants, what is he going to do?

    In these circles, i.e.: Quiverful/Patriarchy, marriage has become an idol. It must be saved at all costs, even if the wife has to live with physical abuse and sexual infidelity.

  342. call a ginger wrote:

    the ashley madison website DID the damage…. all the woman that have to deal with husband’s whose hearts are not with their wives…. that is the sad part…..the patriarchy movement like I said before has never damaged any culture or woman

    No, the AM website didn’t do damage … it only aided and abetted those selfish idiots who didn’t care if they did damage themselves. Had it not been for losers like that, there never would have been an AM website. And, had it not been for the AM website, they would have found another way.
    Patriarchy … well, I guess if your a woman and you get your jollies being some man’s property, go for it. But, there are women out here who will vehemently disagree with your comment. I’ve never lived that way, nor will I, so I can’t speak from personal experience. My life’s dream is not to be some man’s slave.

  343. Former CLC’er wrote:

    So sad, all of it. I want to email Stephen Arterburn at New Life Ministries. I’m sure they could do some fund raising and find plenty of money to get good, truly Christian counseling for both Josh and Anna. And help them start to think for themselves!

    Amen to this! The counselors at New Life are well-trained and would address the root of their problem which is the Quiverfull/Patriarchy system.

  344. Velour wrote:

    Former CLC’er wrote:
    So sad, all of it. I want to email Stephen Arterburn at New Life Ministries. I’m sure they could do some fund raising and find plenty of money to get good, truly Christian counseling for both Josh and Anna. And help them start to think for themselves!
    There’s also The Wounded Heart Christian counselor.

    And Wellspring Counseling Services.

  345. Nancy2 wrote:

    call a ginger wrote:

    the ashley madison website DID the damage…. all the woman that have to deal with husband’s whose hearts are not with their wives…. that is the sad part…..the patriarchy movement like I said before has never damaged any culture or woman

    No, the AM website didn’t do damage … it only aided and abetted those selfish idiots who didn’t care if they did damage themselves. Had it not been for losers like that, there never would have been an AM website. And, had it not been for the AM website, they would have found another way.
    Patriarchy … well, I guess if your a woman and you get your jollies being some man’s property, go for it. But, there are women out here who will vehemently disagree with your comment. I’ve never lived that way, nor will I, so I can’t speak from personal experience. My life’s dream is not to be some man’s slave.

    Agreed, Nancy2. I have seen patriarchy (which is a doctrine of men, not of God) destroy churches, marriages, families, friendships, reputations, women, men, and children.

    Conservative Christian elders that I know in Europe have said that it has more in common with radical Islam than with our freedom in Christ. As conservative Christians in Europe they said there is something seriously wrong in the American church and they are horrified at its abuses being heaped on Christians in the ‘name of Jesus’.

  346. Gram3 wrote:

    singleman wrote:
    I don’t defend Josh Duggar or his conduct in any way, but I wonder if this goes too far in the other direction.
    I agree with you to the extent that fear should not be part of a marriage on either part nor should instilling fear. Marriage should be about mutual love and respect. I think what I would have said and what we should do is instill self-respect in our daughters *and* sons and also a strong sense of responsibility and compassion. I think we should let them know that we will stand for what is right when things get messy.
    Matriarchy is every bit as toxic as patriarchy. Absolutely.

    Well said, Gram. It’s about balance and equity all around.

  347. refugee wrote:

    I don’t think (and maybe I’m not being fair) a man who is converted to it is likely to leave. He might leave because his woman/women (wife and daughters) are miserable, but he might still be baffled about what is so terrible and destructive about it all.

    “What’s so terrible about it? I’m personally benefiting from it!”

  348. Chemie wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    All types of depression have a common spiritual thread – the lack of God’s joy in our lives. God promises to make our joy full, John 15:11. One certain antidepressant in your life is God’s Word. Trust His promise and seek His overflowing joy through:
    #1 Reading the Bible so that you may study it and memorize it, so that you may meditate upon what it says. This is building that personal relationship with our Saviour, Jesus Christ.
    #2 Asking God to fill you with His joy.
    #3 Telling others about the promise of His joy.
    Wow…that sounds a lot like “Christian” hedonism.

    Yep! That would be….John Piper!

  349. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “What’s so terrible about it? I’m personally benefiting from it!”

    Do you call a feeding tube and Depends undergarments personal benefits???
    Duck H.U.G. … There’s a 14″ cast iron skillet flying your way! ; >

  350. Nancy2 wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “What’s so terrible about it? I’m personally benefiting from it!”

    Do you call a feeding tube and Depends undergarments personal benefits???
    Duck H.U.G. … There’s a 14″ cast iron skillet flying your way! ; >

    In case you couldn’t tell, H.U.G., Nancy2 can put John Piper in a dead faint.

  351. call a ginger wrote:

    the ashley madison website DID the damage

    What would really be cool is if the AM website never had one customer. But many chose to sign up.

  352. Sean wrote:

    As I’ve followed this story, I keep asking myself, “Where is Jesus in all of this? Where is the gospel?” I see it nowhere. It’s nothing but legalism and power trips, and “Lording it over” the women in this family.

    This has been my thought, too, Sean. No one in the Duggar family (& their clones) ever mentions anything about Jesus. They’re all too busy running about being (supposedly) “Christian”. I have always had a hard time with them for exactly that reason…..The mess w/Josh just confirms what many of us have been thinking, every time their names are mentioned.

  353. zooey111 wrote:

    This has been my thought, too, Sean. No one in the Duggar family (& their clones) ever mentions anything about Jesus. They’re all too busy running about being (supposedly) “Christian”. I have always had a hard time with them for exactly that reason…..The mess w/Josh just confirms what many of us have been thinking, every time their names are mentioned.

    There are articles that say Jim Bob Duggar is a dictator who rules with an iron fist. Does he think he’s God?

  354. May wrote:

    The problem is, Josh doesn’t WANT help. He has been happily living a lie, cheating on his wife, being a hypocrite at work and in public…for years.

    Agreed. Makes you wonder about all those other people caught up in quasi-christian groups– Have they ever even heard the Gospel? Much less believed it….

  355. @ Velour:
    News bulletin:
    “Headless Unicorn Guy Benefits from Patriarchy Movement”
    Reporter asks, “How did you become headless?” : o

  356. Nancy2 wrote:

    @ Velour:
    News bulletin:
    “Headless Unicorn Guy Benefits from Patriarchy Movement”
    Reporter asks, “How did you become headless?” : o

    Did the Unicorn’s horn come back mounted from the taxidermy shop for hanging in your family room?

  357. Gram3 wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    . And, no surprise, but some Rushdoonyites think the FV guys are nuts. Doug Wilson would be the prime example.
    By which I meant that Wilson is the nut and the Federal Visionist.

    He may be a nut but he has gained significant traction among certain evangelicals as I’m sure you know. I think the reason is that Patriarchy is the uniting force and hence, overrides any other doctrinal differences.

  358. Nancy2 wrote:

    There are articles that say Jim Bob Duggar is a dictator who rules with an iron fist. Does he think he’s God?

    I could very easily believe that he has delusions of being, at least, a kind of demigod– Like Hercules, you know?

  359. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Pretty good. Too bad the young men in patriarchy aren’t just larping GOT.
    “A cold Iron Throne
    Holds a boy barely grown;
    His crown based on lies,
    YOU WIN OR YOU DIE…”
    Since my roomie got me hooked on GOT, every time TWW or a similar blog talks about Patriarchs and their 200-year plans for grabbing and holding POWER, I always think of Tywin Lannister as THE archetype. He is definitely the most widespread pop-culture example.

    What does GOT stand for? I’m out of the loop on this one.

  360. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Just posted today by Boz Tchividjian: “False narratives of Christian leaders caught in abuse.” Opening paragraph:
    When the abusive behavior of Christian leaders is uncovered, all too often the immediate response is not an unconditional admission or a genuine expression of authentic repentance. Instead, a common response is a new narrative. A false narrative. A narrative that attempts to paint a picture of the situation without any regard for truth. A narrative designed to protect reputations and preserve future incomes. A narrative designed to keep the leaders in the spotlight and the victims out of the way.
    http://boz.religionnews.com/2015/08/28/false-narratives-of-christian-leaders-caught-in-abuse/

    Mark Driscoll comes to mind. He was all about discipline at Mars Hill till it came to him. Now it seems he wants to garner sympathy and is actually succeeding with some churches who believe the ‘false narrative. All the while those whom he hurt – the victims – don’t seem to matter to him. I think it’s all about re-inventing himself.

  361. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    brad/futuristguy wrote:
    * Leaders who send subordinates to handle you as the problem so that the person at the top has plausible deniability and person who “handles” you can claim they are only doing their job.
    Brad, this is called “The Psychopath with Two Bodies” or “Two Bodies, One Psychopath”:
    * Leader: “I didn’t commit any atrocity; I just made a phone call and the matter was dealt with. My hands are clean.”
    * Subordinate: “I Was Only Following Orders. I’m not responsible for the Orders. My hands are clean.”

    This is exactly the way the leader operated in the Christian cult I once was part of. He had his subordinates do his dirty work. In fact, the result of that was others facing penalties in the courts due to carrying out some of the leader’s directives.

  362. Bunsen Honeydew wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    call a ginger wrote:
    the patriarchy movement like I said before has never damaged any culture or woman…
    No, patriarchy views and practices definitely created pain and problems for men and women in the Old Testament, and they sure as heck create pain and problems for Christians who try to live it out today.
    Yeah, I think the people behind the many specific sad, sad stories at Recovering Grace might disagree. I’m sure you’ll say that patriarchy isn’t responsible for people who took things too far or misapplied concepts. That’s always the excuse. When much of the fruit is bad, you have to look to the tree.

    Ah…but then there’s the *No True Scotsman* fallacy!

  363. @ Nickname:
    Yes and no. Remember the bible wasn’t written in English. In our language the root of a Quiver is 5, but it is our English word for the ammo a marksman carried in battle/hunting. In Hebrew, that word would also denote the arrow’s ammo, but the root of the Hebrew word wouldn’t necessarily be 5.

  364. @ K.D.:
    Not in any way doubting this could have happened, but Gawker is calling BS as some of her timelines would be nearly impossible for Josh to have been in a hotel zither her after the Club closed (around 2 AM), but in a Texas the next morning at 7 AM

  365. @ Nickname:
    @ Val:

    Also, it depends on what the meaning of ‘full’ is. It may mean packed in tightly to the limit of what it will hold, or it might mean having a sufficient number for the task at hand. Another way of saying that is ‘as many as possible’ vs ‘as many as necessary.’ Rather like when we say somebody has ‘completed’ their education. Obviously not-education is never completed-there is always room for more.

    I am thinking that our understandings of words and how the original speaker/writer may have been using the words is limited.

  366. Darlene wrote:

    What does GOT stand for? I’m out of the loop on this one.

    Game of Thrones, in my context the HBO version.

  367. zooey111 wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    There are articles that say Jim Bob Duggar is a dictator who rules with an iron fist. Does he think he’s God?

    I could very easily believe that he has delusions of being, at least, a kind of demigod– Like Hercules, you know?

    “Nothing’s worse than a monster who thinks he’s right with God.”
    — Captain “Tightpants” Mal Reynolds, Free Trader Serenity, Verse Cluster

  368. Velour wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:
    @ Velour:
    News bulletin:
    “Headless Unicorn Guy Benefits from Patriarchy Movement”
    Reporter asks, “How did you become headless?” : o
    Did the Unicorn’s horn come back mounted from the taxidermy shop for hanging in your family room?

    OK, looks like I’m going to have to retell the story of how I got my handle:

    Many years ago when I was doing furry art, AnthroCon was soliciting for illustrations for its conbook. This was around the time they moved from Albany to Philadelphia, and their theme that year was “Join the Furry Revolution!” with a flyer illo of a raccoon Betsy Ross sewing a thirteen-pawprint flag.

    Well, my brain went ZANG! and started freewheeling. Why should Mary Hanson-Roberts (Here Comes a Candle) be the only one of us to use FRENCH Revolution imagery?

    The picture formed in my mind and wouldn’t let go — a unicorn mare, Western symbol of fantasy and purity and magic, getting the chop during the Reign of Terror. Didn’t stop freewheeling until after cranking out the main picture (“The Age of Reason has No Need of Unicorns”, B&W and color versions), some secondary pictures, and a 2000-word magic-realist fantasy short (“Conversation with a Dying Unicorn”). Whatever was going on, there was POWER behind it.

    Some years later, the main pic and story (which I’d sent to my writing partner of the time) surfaced on a blog I’d never heard of — https://thingsthatarerectangles.wordpress.com/2009/11/04/51-the-unicorn-story/ (everyone who’s seen the pic and read the story has gotten a “baseball bat up side the head” reaction). No idea how it got there, but since I couldn’t find any publisher (mainstream or small-press) interested in the story, I let it slide.

    Some time after, I started commenting on blogs like this. At first I used my real name, but it was a fairly common one and I needed to use a pseudonym to distinguish myself from other commenters with the same name. The pic & story came to mind, and I adopted “Headless Unicorn Guy”.

  369. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    OK, looks like I’m going to have to retell the story of how I got my handle

    I chose my handle in honor of our pathologically adorable blog queen Dee, sometimes called by her angry detractors “Satin” (sic), daughter of “Stan” (sic).

    Just another fabric swatch here at TWW,

    Velour

  370. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Very cool way to acquire a handle.
    And, God forbid we should confuse you with a certain other “Ken”.
    Wish I could draw, paint, etc.
    My daughter is 30. She has a horse, and she never outgrew her love for unicorns! She still has a huge paint-by-number picture that she did when she was a child.

  371. Velour wrote:

    I chose my handle in honor of our pathologically adorable blog queen Dee, sometimes called by her angry detractors “Satin” (sic), daughter of “Stan” (sic).

    Makes me want to change my name …… Could Sandpaper be considered a fabric? Coarse grade, of course! How about Kevlar?

  372. Gram3 wrote:

    I’m glad you found my comment helpful, but as always I encourage everyone to study and investigate for themselves. There are occasional days when I am not infallible.

    Heh heh, but your commentary has been so helpful to me over the months I’ve been reading on this site. I hope that one of these days I can bring myself to start studying and investigating, as you say.

  373. Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    I chose my handle in honor of our pathologically adorable blog queen Dee, sometimes called by her angry detractors “Satin” (sic), daughter of “Stan” (sic).

    Makes me want to change my name …… Could Sandpaper be considered a fabric? Coarse grade, of course! How about Kevlar?

    Darlin’ if you were sandpaper, you would be 50 Grit! LOL.

    Kevlar…that’s what EVERYBODY around you needs ’cause you’re a pistol!

  374. There are some websites out there that tell a woman how to have an affair and get away with it…. ummmmm ok. women seek these types of men out because they say the sex is better….. ok. They of course use the non-patriarchical thing of planned parenthood….. to cover up their trail. um ok. so the point in blaming the patriarchical movement for calling woman slaves to men/one husband is about as pointless as claiming that planned parenthood doesn’t sell baby body parts….. like I said before the ‘ashley madison’ website is a joke on weak unprepared men. There are 37000000 users ….so there are 37,000,000 weak men. …. and MOST of them NEVER grew up in a large duggar size family. …. I noticed that hilary clinton is calling pro-life people terrorists these days….. where is she pulling those ideas from….. the patriarchical movement?

    as a reality check in christian living…. anything phalic is a sign of impurity…. so we all are facing the same ‘demon’ there is no school system of structure that can stop this demon. only reality and understanding of scripture. If the media was truly wise they would have chosen a mexican family…..a large size one….as an example of patriarchal christian living….

  375. Nancy2 wrote:

    Makes me want to change my name …… Could Sandpaper be considered a fabric? Coarse grade, of course! How about Kevlar?

    HA HA HA! Kevlar! Yes, that would be perfect, although Sandpaper might be more descriptive. Or there’s that Flying Cast Iron Skillet.

  376. @ Sarah:

    Over the last 10 years, I personally know three horror stories out of eHarmony that pertain to seeking and marrying a “Christian”. The problem turned out to be patriarchy/comp problems. All of them were, at first, long distance relationships until marriage. It is strange you mention it here. Perhaps the problem is not really recognizing some of the red flags that might, at first, look like security and commitment to some women. Two married professional men not in ministry. two married widowers. All three women, professionals, gave up their careers and moved.

  377. call a ginger wrote:

    like I said before the ‘ashley madison’ website is a joke on weak unprepared men.

    Strange. Both the men and women who subscribed to AM knew exactly what they were doing. The entire process calls for premeditation.

  378. Debi Calvet wrote:

    HA HA HA! Kevlar! Yes, that would be perfect, although Sandpaper might be more descriptive. Or there’s that Flying Cast Iron Skillet.

    On one of my husband’s deployments to Iraq, I worked with a group of teachers who were all military connected. 3 of us were wives of Special Forces men. Before school one day, I found one of those teachers in her classroom, alone and crying. She was having a hard time coping and didn’t know what to do. We talked for a few minutes. When she had gathered herself together, I told her that we aren’t just ordinary people ~ we are made out of cast iron, weathered leather, and axel grease! We can handle anything! After that, every time I saw her with a downcast look on her face, I would say, “Cast iron, weathered leather, and axel grease!” She would laugh.

  379. Sarah wrote:

    I met a guy on eHarmony a few months ago and began talking to him – great guy, a doctor, really theologically knowledgeable. We had good conversations but were still in the early stage. I went away to work at a camp all summer and God brought a former flame back into my life [just for the summer]. I realized that I wasn’t physically attracted to Dr. eH and wrote him a letter telling him some of my “controversial” views [trying to scare him off]. It didn’t – but his letter back was strange.

    Why didn’t you simply tell Dr.eH the truth, I’m not physically attracted to you, rather than playing a game? His letter may have been strange, but he probably realized you were not being honest with him and he was going to have some “fun” with you with his letter.

  380. I thought I’d mention there’s been some possible damage as the result of the accident I had last week. I developed vertigo and lightheadedness on Tuesday morning, but it’s localized to actions on the left size of my head. I have some medication (which is really not helping) and an appointment on Thursday with an ear, nose and throat doctor. Apparently the fall on the left side of my neck may have dislodged some very tiny crystals in my ear. There’s a treatment called the Epley maneuver which may help get those crystals back where they need to be. At least that’s what I’m hoping it is.

  381. mirele wrote:

    I thought I’d mention there’s been some possible damage as the result of the accident I had last week. I developed vertigo and lightheadedness on Tuesday morning, but it’s localized to actions on the left size of my head. I have some medication (which is really not helping) and an appointment on Thursday with an ear, nose and throat doctor. Apparently the fall on the left side of my neck may have dislodged some very tiny crystals in my ear. There’s a treatment called the Epley maneuver which may help get those crystals back where they need to be. At least that’s what I’m hoping it is.

    Falls are nasty business, Mirele. So sorry to hear about the vertigo and dizziness. Best wishes with your appointments.

    (I also added in Chinese acupuncture to my treatment for my fall, which I would have never done before except that I have Chinese friends who have used it for themselves, grandparents, children, etc. and have had much success with it.)

  382. mirele wrote:

    I thought I’d mention there’s been some possible damage as the result of the accident I had last week. I developed vertigo and lightheadedness on Tuesday morning, but it’s localized to actions on the left size of my head. I have some medication (which is really not helping) and an appointment on Thursday with an ear, nose and throat doctor. Apparently the fall on the left side of my neck may have dislodged some very tiny crystals in my ear. There’s a treatment called the Epley maneuver which may help get those crystals back where they need to be. At least that’s what I’m hoping it is.

    Falls are nasty business, Mirele. So sorry to hear about the vertigo and dizziness. Best wishes with your appointments.

    (I also added in Chinese acupuncture to my treatment for my fall, which I would have never done before except that I have Chinese friends who have used it for themselves, grandparents, children, etc. and have had much success with it.)

  383. @ mirele:
    Have you had an MRI, or any other tests done?
    Hope your appt. goes well. Eeesshhhh. When you’re experiencing vertigo and dizzy spells, Thursday is a long wait.

  384. @ mirele:
    I think this might be BPPV. A lot of older people have this for various reasons, and younger ones, too, in the case of accidents. I’m an overachiever in this category having both ears and all canals affected at one time or another. Usually it is the posterior canal and you get dizzy when you look up. There are three canals in each each and when you go to the ENT, he/she can put some goggles on you and video your eye movements when they place your head in various positions. By noting your eye movements, they can localize the ear and canal, usually. Then they will do variations on a couple of different maneuvers, depending on which canal is affected.

    You may also be having vision problems which are due to your eyes trying to work with the bad information coming from your inner ear to keep you spatially oriented. When you go to the ENT, ask if he/she can recommend a vestibular therapist which is not a regular physical therapist, though some PTs do vestibular rehab.

    Don’t be discouraged if the first treatment does not work, because frequently I have to have two or more. Also, if the crystals (ear rocks!) are displaced in two canals, they will probably fix one and then the other. Be encouraged that this is very treatable with therapy and with the conditioning exercises they will give you to retrain your brain. I don’t have to take meds for BPPV, and I can fix my own horizontal canal when it gets wonky. Please let us know how you do with this.

    More info: http://www.vestibular.org
    http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/treatment/rehab.html

  385. AM wasn’t for “weak ” people. You can’t get any more intentional/planning than racking up $1000 in charges for the intent of the causal encounter…over and over again. Add in a history of molesting and Josh Duggar has a very serious issue which may be hard to deal with completely and permanently. His wife and kids are in a horrible spot. We should care about them. If someone seems unconcerned with how people like her have been betrayed, especially those with all their eggs in one basket, then that is a red flag.

    I’m not sure the relevance of 37 million AM users has in the issue of Josh Duggar. Each was their own stupid individual planning their own immorality for their own reasons.

    TWW has a special sensitivity to those who have been abused in the name of Jesus. As far as I’m concerned (I am not spokesperson) if someone’s intent is to defend the indefensible, their comments are as meaningful as a fly on the hind of rhino .

  386. @ call a ginger:
    I don’t think anyone here is denying that people and groups who are Non-Patriarchal in nature are always innocent and upstanding.

    However, it remains the patriarchal (and gender complementarian) beliefs and practices do create their own type of problems for people.

    Patriarchy and associated beliefs (purity and modesty culture, etc) did not keep Josh Duggar from straying, from signing up for Ashley Madison.

    And I thought that was one point of the Duggars beliefs?

    As someone else said above, or some other thread, the Duggars were selling their purity and patriarchy as preventative measures, that if you just followed their practices, your children would not grow up to join sites such as Ashley Madison.

  387. @ Daisy:

    I have thought the obsession with modesty and avoiding seeing the human body in the most mundane of ways, creates a monster. If you tell me not to think of the color blue, what will I think about? I had a friend who could not watch tv at home growing up. Guess what she wanted to do exclusively whenever she went to a friend’s house?

  388. Lydia wrote:

    Over the last 10 years, I personally know three horror stories out of eHarmony that pertain to seeking and marrying a “Christian”.

    I had buddies encourage me to join dating sites, so I did. (Though I don’t really like using dating sites).

    Anyway. The quality of self professing Christian men on such sites is the pits. Some of them are super-spiritual types looking for super spiritual Mother Teresa types who look like Angelina Jolie (the male equivalents to the types of single female Christians HUG kept coming across in his time on dating sites).

    But I kept coming across Christian Men Sleaze Balls.

    They generally state up front on their profiles and in the early stage of a match that they are Christian, but they also equally state in profiles and the matching stuff that is sent to you all their sexual preferences and how much they like sex. Sometimes they are also crude and vulgar and tell dirty raunchy jokes. It’s all a huge turn off.

    Even in my present half-agnostic / half Christian state, I’ve pretty much managed to keep a clean mouth (usually), and I have not gotten too crass. How it is I can keep most of my conversation pretty clean and respectable but these full on Christian dudes cannot is a mystery to me.

    But guys who talk smutty on dating sites like that turn me off. I expect guys to behave like gentlemen. At least wait until you get to know me over a few months before you start telling off-color or raunchy jokes, but right there on your dating profile? No. Huge turn off for me.

  389. Lydia wrote:

    Over the last 10 years, I personally know three horror stories out of eHarmony that pertain to seeking and marrying a “Christian”. The problem turned out to be patriarchy/comp problems.

    Post Script to my post above about dating sites and the sorts of Christians who are on them.

    I just shared this story yet again on an older thread, but I read somewhere online about a year ago that some of these gender complementarian or patriarchal men will lie about their beliefs to the women they meet on these dating sites.

    At least one story I read about, the Christian guy lied, told the lady he believed in total equality for women, but after they got married, he admitted to her he is strongly gender comp.

    He then became a jerk, IIRC, and started expecting her to live up to the doormat Christian, one way submission paradigm that gender comps believe in. She divorced the guy after about a year.

    Anyway, the lesson there is that some Christian men lie in the dating phase, telling a woman they believe women should be treated with respect and so on, but after they marry, they let their true colors show.

  390. Joe2 wrote:

    Why didn’t you simply tell Dr.eH the truth, I’m not physically attracted to you, rather than playing a game? His letter may have been strange, but he probably realized you were not being honest with him and he was going to have some “fun” with you with his letter.

    I’m picking up in some of your posts here that you don’t seem to like women, or find some of their complaints about men to be annoying?
    Do you belong to MRA type sites elsewhere online? Are you a part of the Manosphere, Red Pill groups?

  391. @ Daisy:

    What’s more is that an analysis of the women accounts showed that even the ones that may have been legit, weren’t being used. They looked at in box data and frequency of log ins and checking messages. The “real” women weren’t even present. This whole business model was a big hoax. I read something that asserted that female activity was near zero percent.

  392. @ Bunsen Honeydew:

    I read some critical analysis of AM on another site the other day. One of their problems is that their site didn’t appeal to women to start with.

    This analysis had a few copies of AM ads. The ads were insulting to women. The ads were meant to entice men to sign up, and AM thought the way to do that was to show very slovenly looking wives in their ads.

    One of the guys who owns AM was saying it was a woman’s site too, so they tried to make the site appealing to women, to get more women members.

    But you’re left wondering how that is, when their ads were terribly sexist.

    Also, the person (I think it was a man?) who wrote this page says he signed up under three accounts.

    In one account, he pretended to be a lesbian looking for another woman, in another he was pretending to be a straight women looking for an affair, and for the last, he was a guy.

    He said his straight lady profile encountered all sorts of problems. It did not get immediately published to the site. The lesbian profile has some issues too.
    The boxes and check lists under the lesbian profile seemed geared to straight men, not for a woman seeking a woman. The male account went through just fine, no hitches.

    Their site is not easy or friendly for women who are looking for affairs, which is very strange, since they claim to want more women members.

    None of which is to say I like the concept of the AM site to start with, but for a site that claimed it was trying to attract women too, it sure was a big fail at that.

  393. Sarah wrote:

    I promptly responded with a curt letter that said that if I said no and he continued to “pursue” me that it wasn’t romantic, it was just disrespectful.

    Apparently, Joe overlooked this little tidbit.

  394. Bunsen Honeydew wrote:

    @ Daisy:

    I have thought the obsession with modesty and avoiding seeing the human body in the most mundane of ways, creates a monster. If you tell me not to think of the color blue, what will I think about? I had a friend who could not watch tv at home growing up. Guess what she wanted to do exclusively whenever she went to a friend’s house?

    Yes, I have a friend whose parents forbad her from eating sweets/sugar growing up. And now she has NO self-control around it.

    I had just the opposite experience and it built up my immunity to it: I can walk by cakes, cookies, boxes of candy, donuts and ice cream.

  395. Nancy2 wrote:

    Have you had an MRI, or any other tests done?
    Hope your appt. goes well. Eeesshhhh. When you’re experiencing vertigo and dizzy spells, Thursday is a long wait.

    Per my PCP, my insurance will not pay for an MRI before a consult with an ENT doc. And I should note that the dizzy spells are very intermittent and only a serious problem when getting out of or rolling over in bed. But when you’ve never had dizzy spells, it’s unsettling. If it gets worse, I’m supposed to call and they’ll get me in earlier.

  396. Gram3 wrote:

    Don’t be discouraged if the first treatment does not work, because frequently I have to have two or more. Also, if the crystals (ear rocks!) are displaced in two canals, they will probably fix one and then the other. Be encouraged that this is very treatable with therapy and with the conditioning exercises they will give you to retrain your brain. I don’t have to take meds for BPPV, and I can fix my own horizontal canal when it gets wonky. Please let us know how you do with this.

    I will keep you all posted. At least the physical therapist I’m already seeing for my wonky shoulder does vestibular therapy. (I did wonder what that was, now I know!)

  397. Daisy wrote:

    Many articles came out this week stating that most of the women accounts on AM were fake, they were created by AM. The actual number of real women on the site was very low.

    What was the numbers from that?
    11 Million men and less than 5000 RL women?
    Looks more and more like AM was a scam from the word Go.
    And the Heir of House Duggar was one of the 11 million who fell for it.

  398. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    I have another post above that hasn’t show up yet discussing how AM failed to attract women users and why. I read a big long article about it the other day that went into detail.

    Via CBS News:

    Out of those 5.5 million purported female users, Newitz says only 1,492 had ever checked their inboxes, a sign that they were active users.
    The chat feature was another telltale sign: while 11 million men used chat, only 2,400 women did.

    The third strike that flagged most of the female profiles as fake was the fact that only 9,700 women ever replied to messages they were sent, versus 5.9 million men who had.

    Source:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ashley-madison-women-accounts-were-fake-report-says/

    I have the opposite impression of other dating sites (not that AM is a dating site per se).

    I had friends egg me on to join dating sites, so I did.

    Either those sites were lying, or for every ten female users, there was only like one man. There didn’t seem to be any (or many) male members.

    They claimed after awhile they couldn’t find any matches for me. Seemed to be opposite problem of AM regarding gender ratio.

  399. mirele wrote:

    the dizzy spells are very intermittent and only a serious problem when getting out of or rolling over in bed.

    If it is BPPV, you can provoke the vertigo. If you are lying in bed and roll your head side to side, then it’s the horizontal canal. If you are lying down and it come on when you lean back or when you get up, it’s probably the posterior canal. In any case the vertigo episode should generally only last several seconds and not more than a minute, in my experience, though when you get old like me you get sludge instead of pixie dust. Yeah, that’s what they called it. 🙂 Hope you feel better soon and get some answers.

  400. So Jim Bob has a recent blog post since the AM news, where is addressing fathers. In the post he encouraged wholesome music, Christian biographies, and good ol family fun replacing the Internet and various cultural influences.

    It would seem he is holding just as strong to the rules and paradigms. There is not enough self reflection for this family to correct itself.

  401. Joe2 wrote:

    Sarah wrote:
    I met a guy on eHarmony a few months ago and began talking to him – great guy, a doctor, really theologically knowledgeable. We had good conversations but were still in the early stage. I went away to work at a camp all summer and God brought a former flame back into my life [just for the summer]. I realized that I wasn’t physically attracted to Dr. eH and wrote him a letter telling him some of my “controversial” views [trying to scare him off]. It didn’t – but his letter back was strange.
    Why didn’t you simply tell Dr.eH the truth, I’m not physically attracted to you, rather than playing a game? His letter may have been strange, but he probably realized you were not being honest with him and he was going to have some “fun” with you with his letter.

    If that’s your idea of “fun”…

    (walks away, shaking head and biting tongue to avoid saying something insulting…)

  402. Lydia wrote:

    Either way, we’re left with data that suggests Ashley Madison is a site where tens of millions of men write mail, chat, and spend money for women who aren’t there.

    As some other article I saw put it, it’s a social network site where there’s not much socialization, that the men cannot even chat with other men.

    If you scroll up (at least I think it is this thread), I did a post summarizing an article how truly awful it is, how terrible AM was at attracting female members.

    They actually REPELLED women.

    And if a woman does join, they make it hard for her to get her profile listed, etc. Details are up thread somewhere.

  403. Daisy wrote:

    Many articles came out this week stating that most of the women accounts on AM were fake, they were created by AM. The actual number of real women on the site was very low.

    Could this mean that women, in general, have higher moral standards than men do??? Wel, well. So much for the “women are more easily deceived” bit, huh. (Smile and wink!) ; )

  404. @ Nancy2:

    Heh. Well, I don’t know. There is speculation all over the map by different experts interviewed in the news media about why the numbers for women are so low.

    Some sites chalk up the low number of women to the fact that the site’s owners did a very crummy job of making the site woman-friendly (it was geared to straight men), the advertising was sexist, which may have turned off women who did want to sign up.

    Yet another page I read said a lot of women may sign up for sites like that with no intent of realy using it, because they aren’t looking to have an affair, but to just have men contact them.

    They want to still know the other gender finds them attractive is all they want, they don’t literally want to meet some dude at a hotel for an affair.

    That was according to one site I read, I don’t know how accurate that is, or the rest of it.

  405. Either way, the men who signed up for a little nookie on the side were flushing their money down the crapper. With the staff-generated fake women’s entries, AM was dancing close to the line of a fraudulent operation.

    “I go chop you dolla,
    I make you money disappear,
    Four-One-Nine just a game;
    You be the mugu,
    I be the Masta!”
    — Nigerian pop song about a con man; “mugu” is Ibo for “fool” in the sense of “easy mark”

    But then, someone taking orders from Captain Bonerhelmet has little sales resistance.

  406. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I’m thinking this is Jim Bob’s doing. None of those adult kids will ever be able to make their own decisions.

    In which case, I hope Jim-Bob is immortal (other than in his own mind)…

  407. So this is where things get strange in religion. 37,000,000 subscribers to AM and somehow the patriarchy movement is at fault for the actions of Josh Duggar. Hmm I don’t get how that aligns. That’s like saying eating turkey for dinner causes heart failure especially if you eat it for breakfast rather than for dinner….because it should only be eaten for dinner. Same turkey….just ate it at a different time. It is the cause of this because our ‘culture’ or what we believe is right is right….even if it is all ‘lies’……

    I cannot count the patriarchy movement as a cause of Josh Duggar’s actions….. why? well growing up around anabaptist (the non-photographs allowed type)…. the families grew quite large and the infidelity AFTER marriage grew quite small compared to outsiders of different religious choices. Before marriage the infidelity/fornication was quite rampant for some but not all….then repentance and marriage betrothals very quickly.

    The Duggar problem is clearly an example of poor social choices in some respects…..but not all respects. Michelle Duggar is clearly level headed when it comes to being kind to the children in and out of season. Many woman NEED to learn how important this is. The children perhaps needed LESS orders on how to ‘socialize’ Bill Gothard style…..and let spirit be the wisdom……I don’t think diversity of exposure to multicultures was a big part of their family style…..this in effect….caused pride……and down fall of the ‘patriarchy’….. Patriarchy is neutral…..and natural….. how one handles the brood can depend on heritages…..which the Duggar Family did not do good job of emphasizing. scripture was handled by this family…..but not in such a way that the possibility of major downfall could occur….at any hour….and in the sight of many men and woman.

  408. @ Nancy2:

    What I’ve understood about women and affairs,
    it that, for most, it really does have to have a relational aspect. Many women cheat because they no longer feel loved by their husband (not that this makes it okay). So, the casual hook-up thing just isn’t going to attract females open to an affair.

  409. Another one bites the dust.

    Son of the former president of North Greenville University (SCBC & SBC affiliated) enters home with video tape. Papa has a female staff member hiding in the bathroom. Video was shot in Oct., but did not go public until this week.
    Article on baptist news.com: “Baptist University responds to video of former president”.

  410. refugee wrote:

    No, not at all. The Patriarch keeps control over all the little patriarchs under him, at least until his death. Who inherits the power when he’s gone? Oldest son, I guess.

    Like Josh (Jim-Bob’s Mini-Me).
    It’s called Primogeniture — firstborn son inherits the Throne.

    Or the daggers and vials of poison come out among all the sons and the Game of Thrones begins…

  411. Nancy2 wrote:

    Another one bites the dust.

    Son of the former president of North Greenville University (SCBC & SBC affiliated) enters home with video tape. Papa has a female staff member hiding in the bathroom. Video was shot in Oct., but did not go public until this week.
    Article on baptist news.com: “Baptist University responds to video of former president”.

    Smart son.

  412. Mae wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Wow! Loved that read, and a glimpse into, Headless Unicorn Guy….HUG.

    About 10 years after I wrote & drew that, I wrote a similar but longer short titled “Lament for a Cobra in a White Dress” that has never seen distribution.
    * Like “Conversation with a Dying Unicorn”, both are tragic paranormal romances in a way — an imaginary/fictional creature reaches through the Reality Barrier into our reality to connect with someone IRL, but eventually fails and is drawn back out of reality.
    * Both are based on actual incidents in my life (“Unicorn” on drawing that picture, “Cobra” on some weirdness acquiring the picture that inspired it).
    * In both, I held to the rigor that the scenes where the imaginary creature (unicorn mare or cobra-woman) appears & interacts are the only completely-fictional scenes; everything that happens on our side of the Reality Barrier pretty much happened as-written. It’s a strange mix of mundane/factual slice-of-life and inbreaking fantasy/wonder.
    * And in “Unicorn”, I first hit on the concept of “What if Redemption and Resurrection to an imaginary critter means they are Resurrected into Reality? Like the Velveteen Rabbit, the New Heavens and New Earth mean that they become Real?”

  413. Velour wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Another one bites the dust.

    Son of the former president of North Greenville University (SCBC & SBC affiliated) enters home with video tape. Papa has a female staff member hiding in the bathroom. Video was shot in Oct., but did not go public until this week.
    Article on baptist news.com: “Baptist University responds to video of former president”.

    Smart son.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9XSrYEP12E

  414. Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I chose my handle in honor of our pathologically adorable blog queen Dee, sometimes called by her angry detractors “Satin” (sic), daughter of “Stan” (sic).
    Makes me want to change my name …… Could Sandpaper be considered a fabric? Coarse grade, of course! How about Kevlar?

    I don’t see why not, Nancy2. If clothing can be made from plastic bottles – technically making it a *fabric* – then can’t sandpaper be used as a fabric as well? 😉

  415. Velour wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Nancy2 wrote:
    Another one bites the dust.
    Son of the former president of North Greenville University (SCBC & SBC affiliated) enters home with video tape. Papa has a female staff member hiding in the bathroom. Video was shot in Oct., but did not go public until this week.
    Article on baptist news.com: “Baptist University responds to video of former president”.
    Smart son.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9XSrYEP12E

    Epting took a sabbatical for the spring semester and officially retired in June. Can we say “Cover Up!”?

  416. Darlene wrote:

    I don’t see why not, Nancy2. If clothing can be made from plastic bottles – technically making it a *fabric* – then can’t sandpaper be used as a fabric as well?

    Woot! Xena, Warrior Princess … dressed in sandpaper.
    Faint, John Piper, faint!

  417. Velour wrote:

    mirele wrote:
    I thought I’d mention there’s been some possible damage as the result of the accident I had last week. I developed vertigo and lightheadedness on Tuesday morning, but it’s localized to actions on the left size of my head. I have some medication (which is really not helping) and an appointment on Thursday with an ear, nose and throat doctor. Apparently the fall on the left side of my neck may have dislodged some very tiny crystals in my ear. There’s a treatment called the Epley maneuver which may help get those crystals back where they need to be. At least that’s what I’m hoping it is.
    Falls are nasty business, Mirele. So sorry to hear about the vertigo and dizziness. Best wishes with your appointments.
    (I also added in Chinese acupuncture to my treatment for my fall, which I would have never done before except that I have Chinese friends who have used it for themselves, grandparents, children, etc. and have had much success with it.)

    I have had Meniere’s Disease for several years. I get horrific vertigo where I must lay down or I will fall over. People have recommended that I see an acupuncturist, a chiropractor, a physical therapist, an otologist….but I really have no idea which doctor would be best. I can deal with the tinnitus, but I just want the vertigo to cease.

  418. Nancy2 wrote:

    Darlene wrote:

    I don’t see why not, Nancy2. If clothing can be made from plastic bottles – technically making it a *fabric* – then can’t sandpaper be used as a fabric as well?

    Woot! Xena, Warrior Princess … dressed in sandpaper.
    Faint, John Piper, faint!

    If Duct tape can be used to make prom attire, surely a Warrior Princess dress can be made in Kentucky outta sandpaper!
    http://stuckatprom.com/past-winners/2015/

    Sincerely,

    Velour, Vice President of
    Product Development
    at Shehad (pronoun “She” + Had, sounds like Jihad, for the NeoCals’ “War on Women”)
    Sellers of Premium Hotel NeoCalifornia Burkas

  419. Darlene wrote:

    ^ I did go to an ear, nose and throat doctor but he was of no help whatsoever.

    I think Gram3 had some ideas to share with Mirele. Honestly, I was very impressed by a Chinese (woman) traditional acupuncturist/doctor that my friends’ family saw in a local Chinatown. I was a skeptic about the whole thing. Then my Chinese friend, the first person in her family to become a Christian, got cancer at around 40 years old (after her first child was born). She was supposed to die in 6 months. She used Western medicine and Eastern medicine. She lived 5 1/2 years longer than she was supposed to thanks to Chinese medicine. Her Ivy League trained oncologist was so impressed he asked to treat the Chinese medicine doctor, her husband, and my friends family to Chinese dinner so he could meet this doctor and hear what she was doing to keep this patient alive and having a good quality of life!

  420. Nancy2 wrote:

    Another one bites the dust.
    Son of the former president of North Greenville University (SCBC & SBC affiliated) enters home with video tape. Papa has a female staff member hiding in the bathroom. Video was shot in Oct., but did not go public until this week.
    Article on baptist news.com: “Baptist University responds to video of former president”.

    So that is the “Baptist college” the SBC pastor blogs are skirting around but won’t name.

  421. Lydia wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Another one bites the dust.
    Son of the former president of North Greenville University (SCBC & SBC affiliated) enters home with video tape. Papa has a female staff member hiding in the bathroom. Video was shot in Oct., but did not go public until this week.
    Article on baptist news.com: “Baptist University responds to video of former president”.

    So that is the “Baptist college” the SBC pastor blogs are skirting around but won’t name.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9XSrYEP12E

  422. Gram3 wrote:

    @ mirele:
    I think this might be BPPV. A lot of older people have this for various reasons, and younger ones, too, in the case of accidents. I’m an overachiever in this category having both ears and all canals affected at one time or another. Usually it is the posterior canal and you get dizzy when you look up. There are three canals in each each and when you go to the ENT, he/she can put some goggles on you and video your eye movements when they place your head in various positions. By noting your eye movements, they can localize the ear and canal, usually. Then they will do variations on a couple of different maneuvers, depending on which canal is affected.
    You may also be having vision problems which are due to your eyes trying to work with the bad information coming from your inner ear to keep you spatially oriented. When you go to the ENT, ask if he/she can recommend a vestibular therapist which is not a regular physical therapist, though some PTs do vestibular rehab.
    Don’t be discouraged if the first treatment does not work, because frequently I have to have two or more. Also, if the crystals (ear rocks!) are displaced in two canals, they will probably fix one and then the other. Be encouraged that this is very treatable with therapy and with the conditioning exercises they will give you to retrain your brain. I don’t have to take meds for BPPV, and I can fix my own horizontal canal when it gets wonky. Please let us know how you do with this.
    More info: http://www.vestibular.org
    http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/treatment/rehab.html

    It’s frustrating for me, because I have had two different family doctors since suffering with Meniere’s and all they did was refer me to a ear, nose and throat doctor who did no procedures whatsoever – just wanted me to get a hearing aide. It’s as if the doctors aren’t listening to me. Most of the time I feel like I’ve just come out of a pool and my ears are clogged with water. I am going be far more assertive at the next doctor’s appointment to get a referral to a specialist on the inner ear. Living with Meniere’s has become debilitating

  423. @ Darlene:
    The best doctor for Meniere’s or any inner ear disorder is a neurotologist. There aren’t lot of them around, but if your ENT has not helped you, you may want to consider going to a larger city or university. There are inexpensive generic meds you can take for the vertigo episodes and for the extreme nausa. Work like a charm. Take plenty of B2 and magnesium to help your brain adapt and prevent vestibular migraine which can come with Meniere’s.

    Here’s some good info: http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/disorders/menieres/menieres.html

    Tinnitus is a big problem, especially when we are older. I haven’t found anything that works, but some people swear by pink noise. I find some pink noise very soothing. Try to stay on a low salt diet and drink plenty of water. Sometimes a diuretic like HCTZ can help. The good news is that after a while they become less frequent for some reason. Good luck, and I hope you feel better.

  424. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    What strikes me as especially important in this quote is that *all* legalistic systems attempt to promote themselves as a guarantee of specific results — whether that is salvation through works I do, parenting to prevent kids who have problems, programs that fix those who have problems, etc. But at some point, the guarantee breaks down because the Law kills; the Spirit brings life. No one can keep up the behavioral conformity 100% perfectly 100% of the time. An when people fail, appeals to “confession = repentance” don’t work. Confession equals confession; repentance that leads down a road to transformed character requires deep personal work — empowered by the Holy Spirit and encouraged by grace — to keep going on with a radical change of direction and recovery.
    And now we have enough historical datapoints to see the pattern of how the expectations for a perfect life did not stick for the firstborn in the Duggar household — from at least the early 2000 decade. The façades are fracturing, the realities are being revealed, the Gothard-Duggar Industrial Complex is exposing itself for its inability to make anyone mature.
    If there is any hope at all for any who’ve been that immersed in legalism, it is in God’s empowering Spirit and grace — and this is not power so we can keep the external Law, but for internal change so live out the character of Christ and His Kingdom.

    Beautifully said.

  425. @ Velour:
    Is that THE video his son took catching him? I cannot watch it. Just can’t. I have had my fill of phony Christian leaders this week. You could be expelled as a student there for extramarital sex. He instituted that rule long ago for students.

  426. Lydia wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Is that THE video his son took catching him? I cannot watch it. Just can’t. I have had my fill of phony Christian leaders this week. You could be expelled as a student there for extramarital sex. He instituted that rule long ago for students.

    Lydia wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Is that THE video his son took catching him? I cannot watch it. Just can’t. I have had my fill of phony Christian leaders this week. You could be expelled as a student there for extramarital sex. He instituted that rule long ago for students.

    Yes. That’s the video. But everybody has their clothes on. He filmed confronting them.

  427. @ lydia:
    Americans have a blessedly short attention span. However, in order to stage a comeback, one needs to go away.

  428. We were just talking this morning about the AM thing, and how the Duggars might legitimately be able to claim that they are being singled out. How many million users did the site have? How many names of public figures have come out?

    I’m sure there were more than three outspoken celebrities on that list.

    I am not gossip mongering, and I am not a Duggar apologist by a long stretch. It just seems a little odd that Josh Duggar is one of very few names to be spotlighted, and the press just won’t stop talking about his family. (Someone in our family just remarked, “Why is this even news? Josiah Duggar celebrates his birthday in the midst of his brother Josh leaving…”

  429. refugee wrote:

    We were just talking this morning about the AM thing, and how the Duggars might legitimately be able to claim that they are being singled out

    The enterprising Duggars will also come up with a new story-line to *blame somebody else* for their family’s problems. So far they’ve maligned their city’s (woman) police chief and demanded her firing, hired an attorney for Josh when he was 19 years old to sue Arkansas Social Services for investigating their family, etc.

    Josh used the photos of others for some of his other hook-up accounts, including the son of Goldman Sachs’ CEO (a billionaire, attorney, and Harvard University graduate), another man’s photo in California (he said he lost work because of this scandal and his picture being associated with it).

    I am glad the whole thing came out.

  430. @ refugee:
    One of the few who was so vocal against affairs, I would assume. It’s the hypocracy that makes his name stand out. His family is very vocal against people who behave like him.

  431. @ Nancy2:

    Sorry, power out for second day here in our supposedly urban neighbourhood, yes and no. See, the reason Bible literalists, like Duggars resort to the OT so much: Mosaic Law, genesis, etc. is the OT was written in a time of Fertility cults. Extremely pro-fertility, marriage, etc. the NT on the other hand, was written as a new way in a very pro-war culture. Some pro fertility temples still remained, but war gods, cults and pro-macho male unturned prevailled. Needed Rome to appear awesomely powerful to maintain control. So, in order for about 20% of the people to rule the other 80%, the focus in the NT culture is about authority. FIL is head of house, the only one with legal standing and regardless of the OT, no one could change this. Consider the highest number of martyrs in Christianity were virgin daughters refusing to marry. Fathers were ordering them killed for insubordination!

  432. @ Val:
    Paul’s answer to this pro-authoritarian culture is: step away from it. If you can get out of marriage, do. If you can get out of slavery, do. If not, serve God by being a good Slavs douse well, but the culture is not your salvation, therefore, marriage is not your salvation. Choose celibacy, get out of marriage, live and if needed, die for Christ. This doesn’t work for conservatives. For many reasons, but one in particular, it puts women on par with men. Both are to deny this world, it’s relationships, power structures and striving a and both go boldly to serve God. Virgins being martyred by the thousands is partly what brought the Empire down. See, people began to question Rome’s might if it needed to put young girls to death. Bullying backfired. Rome actually quit martyring them, and cut a deal with the church to only appoint male leaders in return for no death sentence. Long history there, but the beginning of the Romanization of Christianity there (beginning of the end if one is an Anabaptist 🙂 ). Sooooo, long story short, literalists rely too heavily on the OT to make a ‘Biblical Marriage’

  433. @ refugee:
    Perhaps it is because they are media celebs who promote the purity culture. For years, they have been jumping up and down in front of cameras saying, “Look at us” we show you how to live the purity culture and making big bucks from it. So many looked.

  434. Val wrote:

    Virgins being martyred by the thousands is partly what brought the Empire down.

    I have wanted to read more about this. Are you referring to Vestial Virgins or something else. Any resources you could share?

  435.   __

    “Da Sower Sows His Seed On Good Soil?”

    hmmm…

    “Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree.” 
    ― Martin Luther

    “I don’t think it’s even remotely possible to “reconstruct the 1st c. church” absent a time machine…”
    numo

    *

    We can construct a 21st century congregation that follows the New Testament teaching(s) of Jesus Christ, and be a people who judiciously & joyfully await His glorious coming!

    YaHooooooooo!

     ATB

    Sopy
    __
    Inspirational relief Third Day: 
    “Consuming Fire”
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yl1oL7U4QjI

    🙂

  436. Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Velour wrote:
    Nancy2 wrote:
    Another one bites the dust.
    Son of the former president of North Greenville University (SCBC & SBC affiliated) enters home with video tape. Papa has a female staff member hiding in the bathroom. Video was shot in Oct., but did not go public until this week.
    Article on baptist news.com: “Baptist University responds to video of former president”.
    Smart son.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9XSrYEP12E
    Epting took a sabbatical for the spring semester and officially retired in June. Can we say “Cover Up!”?

    Curious that the woman is apparently still working there….

  437. Lydia wrote:

    @ refugee:
    Perhaps it is because they are media celebs who promote the purity culture. For years, they have been jumping up and down in front of cameras saying, “Look at us” we show you how to live the purity culture and making big bucks from it. So many looked.

    Well, Josh was just in the news with the molestation issue. Better chance at name recognition for people looking through the data trying to “catch” someone. It would seem that well known celebs aren’t there…probably because they don’t have to pay to have an affair and they are not stupid enough to have their real name in the system. Josh was really really dumb. If he wanted causal s– he maybe could have paid less in fees for high end h–kers without this exposure.

  438. Bunsen Honeydew wrote:

    Josh was really really dumb

    On so many levels…he was really dumb. I mean…using the photo of the son of the CEO of Goldman Sachs (a billionaire, attorney, and Harvard University graduate) for one Josh’s hook-up accounts.

  439. Velour wrote:

    Bunsen Honeydew wrote:

    Josh was really really dumb

    On so many levels…he was really dumb. I mean…using the photo of the son of the CEO of Goldman Sachs (a billionaire, attorney, and Harvard University graduate) for one Josh’s hook-up accounts.

    I don’t know if this is bad or just sad, but when you’ve lived your life in a bubble, you don’t even know how do “well” at being morally corrupt. Most people growing up in the real world would understand the unintended consequences of using other people’s pictures, especially for that kind of profile for that kind of purpose.

  440. Velour wrote:

    On so many levels…he was really dumb

    That is what having other people clean up your messes for you does. Pa and Ma Duggar did Josh no favors. That made him arrogant and entitled. And made him feel like he could get away with pretty much anything. Yep it made him dumb.

    Good job raising an idiotic son Pa and Ma. Hope you are proud of your boy and what your religion has done to him.

  441. Debi Calvet wrote:

    My heart aches for Anna. Now an adult-film actress is claiming she had two encounters with Josh Duggar during Anna’s fourth pregnancy. How much more must this young mother endure?

  442. Mara wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    On so many levels…he was really dumb

    That is what having other people clean up your messes for you does. Pa and Ma Duggar did Josh no favors. That made him arrogant and entitled. And made him feel like he could get away with pretty much anything. Yep it made him dumb.

    Good job raising an idiotic son Pa and Ma. Hope you are proud of your boy and what your religion has done to him.

    Yes.

    *Daddy and Mommy lied for Josh.
    *Daddy and Mommy had the sisters lie for Josh.
    *Daddy and Mommy demanded that their city’s police chief be fired and maligned her name for what she was required to do by law (produce a redacted police report under a Freedom of Information Act request by a news agency)
    *Daddy and Mommy hired an attorney for Josh to sue Askansas Social Services when he was 19 years old because that agency was required to investigate their family’s abuse
    *Daddy and Mommy used one of their friends, a judge, to have the police report of the abuse destroyed under a court Order (that never happens to police reports and as far as I’m concerned that judge should be removed from the bench as she doesn’t deserve to be on the bench).
    *Daddy and Mommy have never apologized to everybody.
    *Daddy and Mommy always blame somebody else.

    A friend’s husband is a supervisor in a prison. He told me that he can always tell the inmates who will be returning to prison versus those who will not. The ones whose parents call the prison, complain, and make excuses for their kids will be coming back. The parents who tell their kids: You did this and this is your consequence – guess what, they won’t be coming back to prison.

  443. Mara wrote:

    Good job raising an idiotic son Pa and Ma. Hope you are proud of your boy and what your religion has done to him.

    How many more sons do the Duggars have, and how are they going to turn out. What would JB say if, instead of his son behaving this way, it had been one of his sons-in-law? Would he have any sympathy or show any support for any of his daughters, or would he just tell them to shut up and suck it up?

  444. @ Nancy2:

    The uber legalists have little grace to offer others who mess up but of course expect it if they’re the ones caught.

  445. Velour wrote:

    *Daddy and Mommy had the sisters lie for Josh.

    Not being uber familiar with the details nor able to keep up with the threads here due to a busy life, what lies did they have the sisters tell?

  446. Mara wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    *Daddy and Mommy had the sisters lie for Josh.

    Not being uber familiar with the details nor able to keep up with the threads here due to a busy life, what lies did they have the sisters tell?

    Minimized the whole thing.

    Here’s conservative Christian radio host Janet Mefferd’s excellent blog article and the questions she would have asked the Duggars if she, not the lightweight Megyn Kelly interview by Fox with softball questions, had been given the chance:
    http://janetmefferd.com/2015/06/questions-questions-what-i-would-have-asked-the-duggars/

  447. Mara wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    *Daddy and Mommy had the sisters lie for Josh.
    Not being uber familiar with the details nor able to keep up with the threads here due to a busy life, what lies did they have the sisters tell?

    That comment is speculation as far as I can tell.

  448. Bridget wrote:

    Mara wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    *Daddy and Mommy had the sisters lie for Josh.
    Not being uber familiar with the details nor able to keep up with the threads here due to a busy life, what lies did they have the sisters tell?

    That comment is speculation as far as I can tell.

    Actually they have all been caught contradicting major facts and the experts have nailed them on it and said it makes no sense. It doesn’t.

  449. ^Examples: Said they were asleep when being abused by Josh happened.
    (How would you know you were being abused if you were asleep?)

    Contradiction: was awake

    Another example: said he never went beneath clothing

    Contradiction: he went beneath their clothing

    —————————

    It doesn’t make sense, and the experts have nailed them on the lying.

  450. Velour wrote:

    ^Examples: Said they were asleep when being abused by Josh happened.
    (How would you know you were being abused if you were asleep?)
    Contradiction: was awake
    Another example: said he never went beneath clothing
    Contradiction: he went beneath their clothing
    —————————
    It doesn’t make sense, and the experts have nailed them on the lying.

    Yes. Much of it doesn’t make sense. I’m not going to accuse two sisters who were molested by their brother liars. I can’t go there. I know what it is like to walk with someone who was molested as a child. They do a lot of things that don’t make sense to you and me. So, from my perspective, it is only harmful to make accusations about the girls, especially since they have now found out additional information about the deceptiveness of their brother.

    Who are the experts you are referring to who have nailed them?

  451. @ Bridget:

    I said this earlier in my post:
    Daddy and Mommy had the sisters lie for Josh.
    ———————————————–

    The parents have pressured the sisters to lie, minimize the abuse, etc.
    This is common in many families (as well as institutions like churches): to silence the victims, get them to recant, minimize.

    I blame the parents, not the girls.

    The experts are psychiatrists who specialize in abuse and other experts who have pulled the Duggar story apart.

  452. @ Velour:
    I don’t have the time right now to research the specifics of any untrue information the sisters specifically may have passed along, but I did find this:

    Josh Duggar’s Molestation Report Was NOT Released Illegally & 3 Other Lies
    http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/06/05/duggars-lied-josh-duggar-molestation-report-fox-news-interview-lies/

    For the people who keep asking you for more details, or for you to back up your assertions, this information is out there, if you Google for it.

  453. @ practical none:
    We are in Waco, TX.
    Have you contracted with the architect to collect bids and oversee the project? (I didn’t realize this was possible until I asked my husband.) If so, s/he should bring the project within your budget. Let him know you cannot afford his proposal. Since your budget was communicated, he can redo it free of charge, or you can pay for the drawings and terminate the contract.

    If you only hired the architect to envision the remodel for you, contact 3 or 4 contractors to bid on the project. Friend’s referrals and Angie’s List are good places to start. Let them know what your budget is, and ask them to give you options within that budget. It’s usually recommended to choose a bid that falls in the middle of the price points.

  454. Final Anonymous wrote:

    Apparently RC Sproul Jr. “visited” Ashley Madison also,

    Considering when you prune out the fake AM female listings, the sex ratio goes at least several hundred male for genuine female, looks like another Fool got parted from his money.

  455. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Sproul’s statement is in incredibly thick Christianese, but as far as I can decode the Christianese it sounds like he’s taking responsibility for it.

    Unlike the SGM guy and the Christian college guy recently. Plus– if he’s being truthful– “it” seems to have been simply perusing the site and giving them an e-mail– not giving them his money nor “cheating” on the memory of his wife, God rest her soul. So unless his board had other dirt in him, it seems a little like straining out gnats to fire him (er uh suspend) over this. Especially with, IIRC, a whole bunch of past financial shenanigans overlooked. Not to mention false teaching….

  456. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    The story
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/august/ligonier-suspends-rc-sproul-jr-over-ashley-madison.html
    Now to read…
    Sproul’s statement is in incredibly thick Christianese, but as far as I can decode the Christianese it sounds like he’s taking responsibility for it.

    Yes, my initial response was to recoil at the flowery language. I always thought of his father as a plain-spoken sort. (I might be wrong, of course.) The son is very skilled in spiritual purple prose, it seems. So much so, that his words are difficult to read, almost obscuring the meaning in a flurry of fancy phrasing. I hope that is not the intent.

    I would prefer plain speaking, along the lines of “In a weak moment after my wife’s death, I visited. I left an old email address. Then it hit me, what I was doing, and I closed the tab and cleared the cache, never to return. Probably due to the grace of God and the prodding of my own conscience, I managed not to sign up for their services, and did not try to contact anyone through the site. I’m ready to live out the consequences for my actions. I did something wrong, I’m sorry, and I hope I’ll be stronger in future. Please pray for me.” etc.

  457. It just struck me. Perhaps R.C. Sproul, Jr. is one of the “400” predicted to resign this weekend. Although he’s not exactly resigning, but taking a leave of absence from Ligonier.

  458. @ Daisy:

    Thanks for posting that, Daisy. Those publications are not in my reading world.

    Seems JBD presented most of all of the misinformation. If anything, the girls may have only been repeating what was conveyed to them from their parents. Whenever I hear the girls interview, I feel like I am listening to young teenagers.

  459. Dave A A wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Sproul’s statement is in incredibly thick Christianese, but as far as I can decode the Christianese it sounds like he’s taking responsibility for it.
    Unlike the SGM guy and the Christian college guy recently. Plus– if he’s being truthful– “it” seems to have been simply perusing the site and giving them an e-mail– not giving them his money nor “cheating” on the memory of his wife, God rest her soul. So unless his board had other dirt in him, it seems a little like straining out gnats to fire him (er uh suspend) over this. Especially with, IIRC, a whole bunch of past financial shenanigans overlooked. Not to mention false teaching….

    I agree. If what he said was the truth, then I would call what he did being tempted but actually not giving into the temptation. In another example, if I cut a slice of cake that is beyond what I need, and then think twice about it, and put it back on the cake plate, I didn’t actually engage in gluttony, though I came close.

  460. refugee wrote:

    It just struck me. Perhaps R.C. Sproul, Jr. is one of the “400” predicted to resign this weekend. Although he’s not exactly resigning, but taking a leave of absence from Ligonier.

    1 down, 399 to go…
    Stetzer has posted 3 articles today and 1 yesterday, and no follow-up on his prediction yet.
    Ad for Sproul, I got the impression he was suspended involuntarily. I also noticed he wrote an article over a month ago about the AM hack and has now commented that it was inappropriate. To his credit, he’s not (yet) made the previous article disappear.

  461. The Duggars are in the news because Josh’s behavior is the exact opposite of the Duggar family says their parenting achieves.

    As an aside, does anyone else think it strange that the porn star (Danica Dillon) Josh slept with looks a lot like a porn star version of his wife Anna? Just strange….

  462. @ Dave A A:
    It is difficult to explain away leaving a contact (email address) at a site that exists to promote adulterous affairs. Financial stuff and his wacky doctrinal Federal Visionist garbage is easier to explain away, IMO, because most people don’t really want to probe enough to understand. Those of us who have a bit of experience with Jr.’s friends and the way Sr. glosses over Jr.’s activities are not impressed that he did not give AM any money. I am not a Sr. fan, either, for other reasons not having to do with his Calvinism. I really, really hated Sr. saying that God was saying “GD you” at Jesus on the cross. That was crass and sensational, IMO, at the very least, but the YRR crowd ate it up.

    OTOH, most people understand that pastors should not leave contact info or even visit sites like AM. I had never heard of it, thankfully, until this broke. ISTM one would have to go looking for it, but perhaps I am terminally naive and cloistered. In addition, Jr.’s online behavior in the wake of Denise’s death was bizarre and truly not-classy when he had lost a wife and his 7 kids had lost their mother.

  463. @ Dave A A:

    They are trying to get in front of this thing in case some fellow travelers they have published or promoted are among them.

  464. @ Nancy2:

    This was shocking info when I first heard it back then.
    It’s still shocking.
    If it is true about Sproul Jr then a bunch of women need to invade his home, hold him down and beat his patriarchal hiney.

    Denise needs to be the one to beat his hiney. But she’s so beaten down I doubt she’d be able to.

  465. Daisy wrote:

    @ Velour:
    I don’t have the time right now to research the specifics of any untrue information the sisters specifically may have passed along, but I did find this:

    Josh Duggar’s Molestation Report Was NOT Released Illegally & 3 Other Lies
    http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/06/05/duggars-lied-josh-duggar-molestation-report-fox-news-interview-lies/

    For the people who keep asking you for more details, or for you to back up your assertions, this information is out there, if you Google for it.

    Thanks, Daisy.

    Yes, it’s all over the internet, tv, the experts (psychiatrists, psychologists, abuse experts) who are going over it with a fine tooth comb. It should be pretty easy information to locate for my folks.

  466. Velour wrote:

    (psychiatrists, psychologists, abuse experts) who are going over it with a fine tooth comb.

    What I read was HollywoodLife which was quoting In Touch. I haven’t discovered the experts yet.

    I did see a special on TCL last night about child molestation. It had a lot of good information, but I was surprised to see the two Duggar girls and Michelle in a small portion of it.

  467. Bridget wrote:

    . I haven’t discovered the experts yet.

    You don’t consider police departments, a police chief, law professors, and others quoted in these stories to be experts or at least trustworthy or authoritative in their criticisms of how the Duggars handled things?

    All you have to do is go to Google to find other pages.

    Twisting The Truth! Jessa Duggar’s Big Lie About Josh’s Molestation Exposed — Why She Fibbed On TV

    http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/jessa-duggar-lies-josh-molesting-reality-show-filming-started-five-years-after-2003-website-says-same-year/

  468. Bridget wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    (psychiatrists, psychologists, abuse experts) who are going over it with a fine tooth comb.

    What I read was HollywoodLife which was quoting In Touch. I haven’t discovered the experts yet.

    I did see a special on TCL last night about child molestation. It had a lot of good information, but I was surprised to see the two Duggar girls and Michelle in a small portion of it.

    Other programs on tv – news type programs, etc – have had the experts. You can find those on youtube. Some have already been posted here in the blog articles that Dee and Deb have written.

  469. Daisy wrote:

    Bridget wrote:

    . I haven’t discovered the experts yet.

    You don’t consider police departments, a police chief, law professors, and others quoted in these stories to be experts or at least trustworthy or authoritative in their criticisms of how the Duggars handled things?

    All you have to do is go to Google to find other pages.

    Twisting The Truth! Jessa Duggar’s Big Lie About Josh’s Molestation Exposed — Why She Fibbed On TV

    http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/jessa-duggar-lies-josh-molesting-reality-show-filming-started-five-years-after-2003-website-says-same-year/

    Thanks, Daisy. Yes those people you referred to are experts.

  470. @ Daisy:

    I hadn’t started Googling yet is what I meant.

    Personally, I have never agreed with the way the Duggars handled the molestation. But I also imagine that many parents might not handle it correctly, or even begin to know how to handle it. The Duggars are not the only parents that are unaware of the issues surrounding molestation, though, or the pain it causes. They do appear to have been more concerned with Josh than with his victims and they continue to refuse to get professional help for any of their children, unless the Christian organizations they have saught out have had actual licensed professionals. Personally, I am concerned for the Duggar children who have very little say in their own lives.

  471. Bridget wrote:

    @ Daisy:

    I hadn’t started Googling yet is what I meant.

    Personally, I have never agreed with the way the Duggars handled the molestation. But I also imagine that many parents might not handle it correctly, or even begin to know how to handle it. The Duggars are not the only parents that are unaware of the issues surrounding molestation, though, or the pain it causes. They do appear to have been more concerned with Josh than with his victims and they continue to refuse to get professional help for any of their children, unless the Christian organizations they have saught out have had actual licensed professionals. Personally, I am concerned for the Duggar children who have very little say in their own lives.

    Considering that the average pedophile molests some 200 victims in their lifetime, and usually starts when they are a juvenile, the Duggars should have kicked it into gear a long time ago.

    Because of their denial and incompetence they were willing to put other children at risk. Why is it that other parents – who do the same things as the Duggars – face arrest, prosecution, and their children being removed and put in foster care?

    The Duggars’ idea of therapy is to send Josh to Bill Gothard’s rehab services, when Gothard himself is behind this sick and twisted movement and preyed upon more than 40 young women?

    Just sick. All of it.

  472. @ Bridget:
    @ Velour:
    And, let’s not forget: the female victims are only property. They don’t really matter anyway. …..At least that’s how the patriocentrists seem to view them.

  473. Nancy2 wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    @ Velour:
    And, let’s not forget: the female victims are only property. They don’t really matter anyway. …..At least that’s how the patriocentrists seem to view them.

    Free Jana. Free Jinger. Free ANNA!!!

  474. Nancy2 wrote:

    let’s not forget: the female victims are only property. They don’t really matter anyway.

    I always mention in regards to these thing the Two Greatest Commandments and the Golden Rule.
    Patriarchy and Quiverful violate these two things.

    But last night, thinking about Sproul Jr. and spanking I’ve thought of another biblical principle these doctrines violate.

    They violate the principle of sowing and reaping.

    If men want respect, they should not be sowing disrespect into their women and children. Wife spanking and putting women and children at risk of a pedophile disrespects them.
    Since these men have sown such huge amounts of disrespect towards women and children, how can they feel entitled to reap any respect from anywhere?

    Nope, they don’t get the Bible at all.
    To them it is only a tool to prop up their patriarchy and family jewels worship.

  475. Abi Miah wrote:

    In another example, if I cut a slice of cake that is beyond what I need, and then think twice about it, and put it back on the cake plate, I didn’t actually engage in gluttony, though I came close.

    And not too many churches or ministries are willing to suspend a leader for gluttony, even when engaged in habitually.

  476. refugee wrote:

    I would prefer plain speaking, along the lines of “In a weak moment after my wife’s death, I visited. I left an old email address. Then it hit me, what I was doing, and I closed the tab and cleared the cache, never to return. Probably due to the grace of God and the prodding of my own conscience, I managed not to sign up for their services, and did not try to contact anyone through the site. I’m ready to live out the consequences for my actions. I did something wrong, I’m sorry, and I hope I’ll be stronger in future. Please pray for me.” etc.

    I agree. And your sample confession shows that it could have been easily done.

  477. doubtful wrote:

    The Duggars are in the news because Josh’s behavior is the exact opposite of the Duggar family says their parenting achieves.

    Bingo!!!

  478. Velour wrote:

    The enterprising Duggars will also come up with a new story-line to *blame somebody else* for their family’s problems.

    “Could it be… SATAN?”
    — The Church Lady, Saturday Night Live

  479. Dave A A wrote:

    And not too many churches or ministries are willing to suspend a leader for gluttony, even when engaged in habitually.

    The almost-too-fat-to-even-stand-up preacher-man screaming from the pulpit about some other (usually SEXUAL) Sin! Sin! Sin! trope exists for a reason. You can find RL examples on YouTube and over at Stuff Fundies Like all the time.

    I remember some wag talking about “preacher-men taller when they’re laying on their back as when they’re standing up” AKA “fifth helpings at every church potluck physqiues.” Some of this is cultural; they like to eat hearty in the Former Confederate States (look at Elvis) and cleaning your plate and partaking of every dish at the potluck is part of the hospitality customs of the culture, a way for the preacher-man to complement the cook.

  480. Nancy2 wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    @ Velour:
    And, let’s not forget: the female victims are only property. They don’t really matter anyway. …..At least that’s how the patriocentrists seem to view them.

    They are vaginas and wombs and political alliance collateral for the 200-year Dynastic plan.

    “She’s…Ovulating.”
    — South Park (one of their more sicko bits)

  481. Velour wrote:

    Because of their denial and incompetence they were willing to put other children at risk. Why is it that other parents – who do the same things as the Duggars – face arrest, prosecution, and their children being removed and put in foster care?

    Because the Duggars are CELEBRITIES (by Divine Right, no less) and the others are Nobodies.

  482. doubtful wrote:

    As an aside, does anyone else think it strange that the porn star (Danica Dillon) Josh slept with looks a lot like a porn star version of his wife Anna? Just strange….

    What Screwtape called “The Infernal Venus” (or at least Josh’s take on it)?

    Again, Anna was a womb. This was a REAL woman for REAL sex.

    In a lot of European history (when political power and social rank was inherited like any other personal property), your wife was someone you married for political/business alliances and to breed heirs for your Dynasty. For anything else (like REAL relationships), you kept a mistress on the side. It’s how to sneak Polygyny for the high-ranking males past Christian requirements for monogamy.

  483. refugee wrote:

    Yes, my initial response was to recoil at the flowery language. I always thought of his father as a plain-spoken sort. (I might be wrong, of course.) The son is very skilled in spiritual purple prose, it seems.

    How does Junior compare to Flutterhands Piper in that respect?

    (Also, I’m reminded of the joke “How do you become Lead Pastor/Head Apostle? Be born the son of the Lead Pastor/Head Apostle, preferably firstborn with a name ending in ‘Junior’.”

  484. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I remember some wag talking about “preacher-men taller when they’re laying on their back as when they’re standing up” AKA “fifth helpings at every church potluck physqiues.” Some of this is cultural; they like to eat hearty in the Former Confederate States (look at Elvis) and cleaning your plate and partaking of every dish at the potluck is part of the hospitality customs of the culture, a way for the preacher-man to complement the cook.

    They can shovel it away in the border states, too. Every time we have a guest speaker, it’s covered dish time, along with BBQ and desserts galore!

  485. Dave A A wrote:

    Of course, there’s also over-appetite for quality, not just hunger for quantity.

    St Thomas Aquinas called this “Gluttony of Delicacy”, and a lot of Gourmets & Health Food Types & Activists qualify for it. Orthorexia, with every millicalorie calculated and microgram of transfat & gluten & fatty acids accounted for. Just as controlled by their stomachs as Mr Creosote in the Monty Python movie, except it’s what they DON’T eat instead of what they do.

  486. Nancy2 wrote:

    They can shovel it away in the border states, too. Every time we have a guest speaker, it’s covered dish time, along with BBQ and desserts galore!

    Again, I think this comes under “hospitality customs”.

  487. Velour wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    @ Daisy:
    I hadn’t started Googling yet is what I meant.
    Personally, I have never agreed with the way the Duggars handled the molestation. But I also imagine that many parents might not handle it correctly, or even begin to know how to handle it. The Duggars are not the only parents that are unaware of the issues surrounding molestation, though, or the pain it causes. They do appear to have been more concerned with Josh than with his victims and they continue to refuse to get professional help for any of their children, unless the Christian organizations they have saught out have had actual licensed professionals. Personally, I am concerned for the Duggar children who have very little say in their own lives.
    Considering that the average pedophile molests some 200 victims in their lifetime, and usually starts when they are a juvenile, the Duggars should have kicked it into gear a long time ago.
    Because of their denial and incompetence they were willing to put other children at risk. Why is it that other parents – who do the same things as the Duggars – face arrest, prosecution, and their children being removed and put in foster care?
    The Duggars’ idea of therapy is to send Josh to Bill Gothard’s rehab services, when Gothard himself is behind this sick and twisted movement and preyed upon more than 40 young women?
    Just sick. All of it.

    A juvenile sex offender is not necessarily a pedophile – often not. Many do not re-offend, even if not “treated.” Of course, some are pedophiles and go on to commit many more such crimes. If you Google it, you’ll find a lot on this. I was researching how to prevent child molestation and was surprised about some of the researched-based information I found.