The Sins of Our Fathers: Elevation Church Needs to Know That Repentant Pedophiles Are Not Heroes

“Anyone who does anything to help a child in his life is a hero to me. ” ― Fred Rogers link

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=66150&picture=woman
link

Today I am going to be discussing the sinful handling of a pedophile by Holly Furtick's father. Why? The newspaper article is one of the best reports of a church which defended a pedophile that I have ever read-especially for that time frame. It takes the perspective of the young man who was sexually molested.

Secondly, I took a course in college that has stuck with me for years. It was called the Psychology of History. We studied the upbringings of Hitler, Stalin and Disraeli. I was shocked to learn of the parental weirdness that Hitler had to deal with growing up. For years, I have contemplated how my upbringing, as well as others affect us for the future. 

My story

Anticipating some pushback that I am bringing up Holly Furtick's father, I have decided to share with you two incidents from my upbringing that have affected my willingness to go after child sex abusers.

Incident One

When I was in third grade, I was walking home late from school with my friend. We had stayed after to help our teacher clean up a room. We always took a short cut through the back alley of the school. One day, a man in his 20s stepped out and wanted to show us something. As he proceeded to do so, I knew he was showing us a part of his anatomy that should be private. He came after us and asked us to touch him. We went screaming down the alley. I bumped into my younger brother (1st grade) and around 5 of his neighborhood friends on bikes and told them what was happening. They went after the guy, screaming and threatening to run him down with their bikes. He ran away as fast as he could. 

I ran home and told my mother. She called the principal and told him the story. Here is where it gets a bit strange. She told me not to describe, in detail, exactly what I saw. When I asked why, she said that it isn't *nice* to talk about such things. When I met with the principal, I told him what I saw in *nice* terms. He got the picture and the police began to patrol the area. My brother and his friends also did the same thing against my mother's wishes. They found him one more time,chased him down a street and went and got the police. I still do not know what happened but I never saw him again.

Incident 2

Growing up, I was friends with a girl in my class. She was allowed to come and stay at my house but I was never allowed to go to her house. My parents said her father was *not right in his head.* Years later, I would learn that he molested two of his daughters. As I grew older, I asked my parents why they did not report it. My mother, once again, said polite people do not talk about things like that. However, my father, in later years, says he wished he had done something about it. It was one of his many regrets. To this day, my elderly mother refuses to discuss it with me. 

The possible effects on me

I saw a pedophile who was scared to death of a bunch of first grade boys on bikes. They were able to find him and help him get arrested. Was it wise? Of course not. But it happened and that probably gave me courage that I could fight against a predator. Also, my discouragement with my parents' lack of intervention in the life of a friend gave me a purpose. I would never remain silent in the face of predatory behavior. 

Why is Norm Vigue a hero in the eyes of Steven Furtick?

This, perhaps, is the most troubling question in the saga of Elevation Church. In many stories that we have covered, the pedophile is often the center of attention. He is defended by the church, he is supported in his criminal trials by the church and he is welcomed back with open arms by the church simply because he has said he is sorry.

As I was driving today, I thought about other members of Elevation Church. They have not molested any children, they do not participate in viewing internet child sex abuse, they have not murdered anyone and they haven't embezzled any funds from their companies. Yet, they are not hugged on stage and they are not considered heroes. They are not given a table after the church service so that they can sign autographs. Why is that?

Even worse, where are the words of concern for the children who were abused, trafficked, and thrown away for someone's sexual gratification? Why are they not the heroes at Elevation Church? Why is the man who helped to fund their abuse the hero? Why is it not enough to say he has repented? How did the church get to this point?

Our past can help explain today.

Thanks to a helpful tweet, I was directed to an article at Stop Baptist Predators. Christa Brown has been a long time warrior on exposing the number of Baptist church leaders who are sexual abusers. She was way ahead of all of us current watchbloggers. She has been threatened due to her work but she has carried on. Stop for one minute and thank God for her ministry.

Christa posted an article from The Miami Herald written in 1994 by Joanne Cavanaugh called Left By the Wayside. I was completely taken by the emphasis of Cavanaugh in this story about a pedophile in a church. She did something that I have rarely seen, especially 20 years ago. This informative post began and ended with the perspective of an abused boy. This abused boy was forgotten by a church when they chose to support a pedophile. Please read the entire post but be fore warned-it is graphic.

A youth pastor was found guilty and a church was found negligent by the courts.

His abuser was sentenced to 15 years at the DeSoto Correctional Institution in Arcadia for what he did to Artis and nearly a dozen other teenage boys. In February, the church that had hired Geren and encouraged children to trust him, was ordered to pay Artis $4.2 million in damages. The jury ruled that the church was negligent for failing to search for red flags in the youth minister's background. 

Dan Artis, an abused boy, said he was forgotten by the church and the predator was supported.

But nearly as damaging, Artis claims, was that even after the abuse was exposed and admitted, the church made more of an effort to forgive and support the abuser than to heal the abused.

The Senior Pastor of Wayside Baptist Church was Holly Furtick's father, Murrill Boitnott.

​Boitnott had recommended that the church hire Keith Geren whom he had known for 9 years. He was allegedly devastated when a father in his church called him and reported that his son had been molested by Geren. When he asked Geren if is was true, Geren admitted that he had molested 17 boys as the youth minister.

At first, Boitnott responded correctly.

 He stripped Geren of his youth ministry duties, removing him from any responsibility for the children. In accordance with state law, he reported the abuse to an HRS abuse hot line. He found Geren a psychologist. And he alerted a small group of deacons that the youth minister had abused some boys in the youth group.

He also contacted the fathers of the abused boys and recommended they get counseling.

But, then he backed off. The popularity of Geren was the chief factor!

But he could not bring himself to recommend his young friend be fired. And he did not bar him from church property, or order Geren to have no further contact with church youth.

The youth minister was so popular, Boitnott later testified, he was concerned that if he acted more forcefully, some would think he had gotten rid of Geren because he felt threatened by the young man's popularity.

The abuse factor was downplayed by Geren.

Geren would go on to confess the molestations to each family. The families were asked to keep this confidential. Within days, the church was informed and Geren read a prepared statement to the congregation which did not admit to abuse.

For many years I have been struggling with this sin and it is awful," Geren read from a prepared statement. "Young people, I am sorry I have hurt you. I haven't been living what I have been preaching, and God has removed me as your spiritual leader . . . Your sins will always find you out."

But Geren didn't admit to abusing children. The sin he admitted to was "compulsive sexual behavior." 

Satan got the blame more than Geren. (*The devil made me do it *approach.)

 Still others blamed Satan for a national epidemic of child abuse. The pastor responded: "Satan is having a heyday and he wants our children." He gently advised parents: "Observe and tenderly talk with your children to discern whether they have been harmed by Keith."

Love the sinner became the rule of the day for the church. 

The church went into overdrive to support GerenEven Geren became uncomfortable with the show of support, saying the children were the victims, not him.

 Church members rushed to embrace him, to forgive him, to tell him they still loved him and were praying for him. In time, church members, led by Boitnott, would charter a bus and visit Geren in the Dade County Jail for a prayer rally. The pastor urged members to write supportive letters to their fallen friend.

The victim felt forgotten and was made to feel that he was the evil one.

Although Dan Artis attempted to forgive Geren, he began to feel forgotten.

After Geren resigned and made the vague reference to compulsive behavior, Artis sat in a pew quietly crying as church members crowded into the center aisle and lined up to embrace his abuser. Artis watched this effusive display of compassion and felt confused. He began to suspect that he hadn't really forgiven Keith at all. 

"It made me feel like I was the evil one because I couldn't do what they were doing and forgive Keith," Artis said.

And in the following weeks, as he watched Geren sit boldly in church and giggle and chatter easily with friends before a service, as if nothing bad had happened, his confusion turned to hurt.

"Here I was, the victim, and they are loving him," Artis remembers. "Keith is a good guy, they'd say. They were helping him, and letting me rot away. I was sitting on the outside looking in, saying, 'Hey, I'm still out here feeling awkward, feeling different, feeling hurt and wounded.' "

The seriousness of the abuse was downplayed to the parents.

Boitnott and Geren did not tell Dan's father the details of the extent of his molestation. The father assumed it was merely some fondling. 

When Wayside's senior pastor first told Artis Sr. that Geren had molested his son, he did not reveal all the nasty details. Even when Geren had met with the boy's father, no specifics were discussed. Boitnott later told lawyers that he believed the whole truth would be too overwhelming for the boy's father all at once. He thought it better that Artis Sr. learn of the worst in stages. 

The father became hysterical when he finally learned the truth.

"My dad was so outraged and so upset and so betrayed and so disgusted, he honestly went running through the house screaming and crying and didn't know what to do," a sobbing Artis told attorneys. 

"He wasn't like a mad man," Artis said later. "He was crying deeply, his body shaking, his face real red. That is probably one of the saddest moments in my life, and one of the nicest moments, too. 

"It is the one time in my life my dad looked like a broken man," Artis said. "But my dad also proved to me his love, and faith and belief in me."

Private information was allegedly released to the church by the Christian counseling service that was used by some of the boys.

Artis and another youth who was abused say the pastor's words now sound hollow. They testified they tried going to the Christian counselors, but stopped when they began to hear some of the most private details of their conversations with the counselors being repeated by church members.

The counselors, from Christian Counseling Ministry in Miami, later denied discussing their sessions with anyone from the church. But they said they understood their former clients' sense of abandonment.

Forgive the abuser became the meme.

One attorney said the main mistake was to try to rectify the situation quickly in order to forgive the abuser.

Artis' counselor, Robin Reisert, later told attorneys, "I think the mistake (made by the church), which is not unusual . . . was to try to fix the situation as soon as possible so that people may be able to begin working on forgiving (the abuser). Which to someone that's the victim, that could seem like a betrayal."​

Geren, unbelievably, was allowed to continue to attend the church.

The police said Geren should never have been allowed on church property again.

Others outside the church found fault with how things were handled. A Metro-Dade child exploitation investigator and an assistant Dade state attorney later expressed disbelief that Geren was not immediately barred from church property. 

The Metro police officer who investigated the case, then- detective Sheila Davis, told church attorneys during a deposition: "If a person knows that someone has committed this type of crime, and he allows this person to continue to have contact, and be placed in a position where he could commit the crime again . . . " she trailed off. "He should have forbidden Keith from being on the grounds."

Boitnott believed in forgiveness which meant showering Geren with attention.

Boitnott appeared to say that any retribution against Geren would be against his faith.

Boitnott later said he regretted some of his decisions, including that one. "I should have fired him," he said. But in his court testimony, his regret seems tempered with a conviction that any retribution against Geren would have been contrary to his Christian ethic: "I should have taken the heat and called Keith ugly names and joined the We Hate Keith club. It was a difficult time. Forgiveness is a large part of Christian life."

Boitnott arranged for church outings to the jail to support Geren.

Prior to Geren's sentencing, Boitnott arranged a church outing to the jail

Six months later, Boitnott set up a bus trip for church members to go to the jail to show support for Geren before his sentencing. "They prayed for him and put hands on him to ask for the healing power of God, 

Dan had enough and decided to sue the church.

Dan Artis finally had enough and he decided to sue the church.

'This is B.S.,' " Artis said. "I said, look, I've had enough. I don't care if it's right or wrong. I want someone to pay for this. I want people to know what they did was not right." 

Artis filed suit in early 1991, charging that Wayside was negligent in hiring and supervising Geren, and asking $2 million in compensation.

Boitnott did not check out Geren before he hired him.

Boitnott admitted that he had not checked out Geren.

"In honesty, I would probably say that the personnel check was not done on Keith because he was a personal friend of mine," Boitnott told the Wayside congregation on May 17, 1989, after disclosing Geren's abuse. "I had every reason to believe that he was a fine, upstanding young Christian man, and if the mistake was made, it was mine."

The church allegedly approved of sleepovers that Geren had at his house.

The church was aware that Geren had sleepovers at his house.

Church leaders knew about some of the sleepovers, but Boitnott, who even had breakfast with Geren and one of the boys after one such sleepover, said he did not know the teens slept in Geren's bed. 

"I thought they were having Bible studies, or something like that," Fred Touchton, the deacon who now lives in Central Florida, told attorneys. "I guess I am just naive. I didn't really think that sort of thing went on."

Boitnott claimed, on the stand, that Dan Artis was the aggressor and brought this on himself! (This makes me sick!)

Boitnott claimed, during the trial that Dan Artis was the aggressor! The church lawyer also did the same!

In fact, Jenks believed it was more than poor judgment. He suggested Artis let the abuse go on again and again over a period of years because he liked it. At trial, Jenks sought to introduce a statement made by Geren in 1989, during his confession: According to Boitnott and another church member, Geren said Artis became the aggressor, calling him to arrange "appointments" to meet for sex.

But Dade Circuit Court Judge Arthur Rothenberg did not allow jurors to consider that testimony because Geren had already pleaded guilty to sexual battery on Artis, therefore agreeing Artis had been — as the law puts it — unable to give consent. 

In cases of sexual abuse of minors, consent is irrelevant, says Ron Weil, Artis' attorney. "There is an inequality of power. The molester is older, bigger, stronger, smarter and able to manipulate young victims.

But if it was legally irrelevant, the allegation that he consented was hardly irrelevant to Artis. During the trial, the church's attorney did his best to get Artis to agree that he may have encouraged Geren's advances.

The key mistake-teaching children to accept authority at all costs.

Dan's family said they taught him to respect authority at all costs.

Artis' mother, Edwina, would later say that the family had taught Dan to respect authority — at all costs. 

"We told our children if you are in school and a teacher says something, and you know absolutely, positively, beyond any doubt that the teacher is wrong, you don't open your mouth," she said. "That's stronger for a church or spiritual leader."

Church members allegedly made fun of victim during his trial.

Church members attended the trial-some even snickered during Dan Artis' testimony.

During his and Artis' testimony, a few church members in the courtroom whispered and snickered in disbelief.

At one point, after Artis wept on the witness stand, a few of the church members started to pick apart his story. They debated how much Geren weighed versus Artis. 

One member, who was taking shorthand notes on a pink steno pad, said: "I feel for him."

Another church member shot back: "I don't. I think he's lying like hay."

Following their pastor's urging not to speak to the press, most Wayside members who attended the trial would not consent to interviews. But they could not conceal their anger at the lawsuit.

"To have to drag such fine people through something like this? Our pastor doesn't deserve it," said Wayside member Bob Corell.

Geren has been forgiven by Boitnott's church. Dan Artis has been hurt.

Neither, some said, did their former youth minister. Church members still visit Geren, driving the four hours to Arcadia on prison visiting days. Many more write letters and think of him in their prayers.

"I love Keith Geren," said the mother of one of the abused boys. "I am a Christian, I have forgiven Keith, and so has my son."

The people of Wayside had found it in their hearts to forgive a child abuser — after all, he had repented. But some could not forgive Artis.

Dan has walked away from the church but says he still believes in God. He questions a lot of things these day. One thing that he doesn't seem to understand is that he is the hero of this story. His church is to blame for this. Have they ever repented? Have they ever apologized to them? Boitnott is still in ministry so it seems like he would be capable of doing so.

Elevation Church and Norm Vigue: Who are the real heroes?

Can you imagine being the victim of such abuse and then, one Sunday, being told that Norm Vigue is a hero? Imagine being told that he was going to get a table to sign autographs after the service? Imagine not hearing one word of concern for those who have been abused, trafficked, and thrown away in order to give some grown man who favors young children a night of selfish pleasure? As you look around your church, do you wonder if the church understands that the average man does not get his jollies by watching kids have sex? Do you wonder if they understand that this predilection does not just go away? That it might be something he fights every day for the rest of his life? 

Then you ask the question, of all the people who attend Elevation Church, why is Norm Vigue the choice for "hero of Elevation?" Does this have something to do with kids who watched a pastor who said that a young teen really was to blame for his molestation by a youth pastor? 

It is time for all of us to grow up and be responsible for caring for the abused children of this world. Those who fight for the young are the true heroes of all churches everywhere-not some guy who might have stopped viewing internet child sex abuse.

Screen Shot 2015-07-22 at 3.53.26 PM

PS: Why does Geoff Schulz, a full time employee, say on Twitter he doesn't know which campus Norm Vigue attends? Also, he claims that he was only told that Norm had committed some crime?

Comments

The Sins of Our Fathers: Elevation Church Needs to Know That Repentant Pedophiles Are Not Heroes — 155 Comments

  1. This doesn’t make any sense to me at all. If the guy were a normal church goer – NOT a pedophile, not even a guy who had ever gotten a traffic ticket… the “signing autographs” part and the glowing praise would still be inappropriate.

    When you add in the other pieces, it is just exponentially more baffling and beyond inappropriate.

  2. I did not even spell my name correctly. And I can’t spell the word that means spell incorrectly correctly.

    Narcissistic abusers sometimes defend each other.

  3. Steven Furtick has made multiple mentions of his testimony not involving anything dramatic such as drugs, sleeping around or prison.

    Norm’s story is the polar opposite with child pornography. Was Steven enamored with the details, the drama, etc? He definitely created an aura around Norm to encourage others to adulate him and…they did!

    What I find hard to believe is how so many people at Elevation Church never asked what Norm was going to prison for.

  4. A common human trait, that is all too common in the church as well, is for groups to engage in self-congratulatory, feel-good behavior and rhetoric in order to feel good about themselves. For some it feels good, validating, and even deeply spiritual to be perceived as forgiving – often with the worst offenses being met with the most over-the-top displays of public forgiveness and goodwill.

    It is a sick bastardization of forgiveness – especially for Christians, who seem to forget the costliness of forgiving for the one offended. Christ paid with his life, bearing our sins on the cross, and when we engage in forgiving those who have harmed us the process is painful and time-consuming. It’s a lot easier to forgive some bogey-man paraded at the pulpit on testimony Sunday that we have little attachment to, harder still to empathize with the victims whose lives are ripped apart by abusers. ‘Give us the sentiment of forgiveness without it’s substance, and for heavens sakes drop talk of healthy boundaries’ seems to be the mantra of too many congregations.

    Since when does the Church of Jesus Christ get a pass on endorsing such brazen ignorance, and dangerous stupidity? The epidemic of abuse in the church today would be curtailed if more people were willing to do the hard work, ask the tough questions, and be okay with making ‘decent’ folks uncomfortable. At least there is some sanity amongst TWW readers & commenters on this matter.

  5. Olivia wrote:

    Norm’s story is the polar opposite with child pornography. Was Steven enamored with the details, the drama, etc? He definitely created an aura around Norm to encourage others to adulate him and…they did!

    Was Pastor With Vision jealous because he didn’t have such a JUICY JUICY JUICY testimony? “Come on, Norm, tell me again — IN MORE DETAIL (nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean know what I mean)!”

    And after all, Norm’s sin wasn’t HOMOSEXUALITY(TM).
    Guess at Elevation it’s OK to bang little kids as long as it’s not Same-Sex.

    What I find hard to believe is how so many people at Elevation Church never asked what Norm was going to prison for.

    Good Little Tithing Units, Aren’t They?
    “Keep Tithing, Number 10432, maybe you’ll get 3D! Or a pat-pat-pat on the head (and dog biscuit) from Pastor Himself!”

  6. PS: Why does Geoff Schulz, a full time employee, say on Twitter he doesn’t know which campus Norm Vigue attends?

    Sure that isn’t SGT Schulz?
    “I KNOW NOTHINK! NOTHINK!”

    (Johann Banner, wherever you are, I’m getting a lotta mileage out of your most famous tag line…)

  7. dee wrote:

    @ Sarah:
    That is why I am trying to figure this one out. Do you have any thoughts?

    Other than Kiddie Porn Norm is now Elevation Church’s latest Christian *CELEBRITY*?

  8. Apparently the word “hero(TM)” has a very different definition in the “madcap world of Steven Furtick” (and like-minded churches.) It’s an odd world where predators are placed on pedestals and given autograph sessions, and the abused. Truly, it is a dangerous place to be.

    Sadly, I’ve heard that WCNC let go of Stuart Watson earlier this year, so I don’t know if either the station or Watson on his own will do a story on the Norm Vigue situation. But I have a feeling that getting it on the news is going to be the only way to get Steven to address the issue. Just get ready for another round of Hey Haters/Shake The Snake if/when he does.

  9. This is why I don’t believe in forgiveness as a divine commandment.

    I will forgive someone when I feel like it. If they never earn my trust or forgiveness-I don’t care.

    But I will never again allow someone to walk all over me-again and again-and then be told that I am commanded to forgive the son of a bisquit!

    People that demand forgiveness are people that can not be trusted.

    This article painfully illustrates this fact.

  10. Perhaps someone should put the man’s name and his crime on a billboard that the goers to Furticks cult will see on their way to Be Elevated, or rather Degraded, because that’s what actually happens!

  11. Is the Christian forgiveness Boitnett speaks of the same as forgetting? I am uncertain the two are synonymous. Also is believing in justice the same think as killing Cain? I disagree with theonomy but sometimes I sympathize with their eye for an eye sense of justice. If someone raped a loved one, and I consider pedophilia a very atrocious form of rape, I would feel no sadness if the rapist/pedophiliac received a capital sentence. If I came upon it I might even be the sentencer. My question is “come on people where is the outrage?”

  12. Nobody needs that kind of worship – it’s a recipe for entitlement and a future fall – especially NOT predators/people still in the process of repentance. I understand the reason behind wanting to do these things – you want to show that sin doesn’t bring shunning and shame from the church. But the other extreme is helpful how?

    Give these folks a darned lifetime achievement award on their deathbed when/if they have successfully not molested anyone since publicly repenting. Or don’t. Because it’s still backwards.

  13. @ AnonInNC:

    Isn’t this the normal course of events! Only when the main stream media gets involved does Elevation Church and Steven Furtick snap to attention and confess secrets. Steven didn’t tell EC peeps about his huge house until WCNC spilled it on the news. I’d argue that hiding the details of Norm’s crimes is more egregious than not telling anyone a 16,000 square foot plantation house is going up in the woods of Waxhaw.

    Also, the Boitnotts have three grown daughters, one with Down Syndrome. Did any of them, when young have contact with the youth pastor? I’m willing to bet it at least had an effect because the Furticks have increased security for their children on Sundays at Elevation church. That pretty much shows their priorities in my book.

  14. How is it these members’ jobs to forgive the abusers? The abusers hurt the children, not them. The children were sinned against, not them. They are attempting something that isn’t theirs to do.

    I think they usurp forgiveness and slather it on as quickly and thoroughly as they can because they are desperate not to look at evil squarely in the face. They are particularly terrified that it is so close to them, and looks so much like them. They will sacrifice the children so as not to face the monster under their bed.

    Cowards.

  15. Here is my latest post. There was a post on Neil Carter’s Godless in Dixie a while back that dealt with grieving the loss of your faith. Godless in Dixie is a popular atheist blog. I realized in reading the article that in my faith crisis I passed through all 5 points. So I blogged about it here.

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/07/22/eagle-writes-a-journal-entry-inspired-from-neil-carters-godless-in-dixie-on-grieving-the-loss-of-your-faith/

  16. This statement really jumped out at me:

    “The father became hysterical when he finally learned the truth.
    “My dad was so outraged and so upset and so betrayed and so disgusted, he honestly went running through the house screaming and crying and didn’t know what to do,” a sobbing Artis told attorneys.
    “He wasn’t like a mad man,” Artis said later. “He was crying deeply, his body shaking, his face real red. That is probably one of the saddest moments in my life, and one of the nicest moments, too.
    “It is the one time in my life my dad looked like a broken man,” Artis said. “But my dad also proved to me his love, and faith and belief in me.””

    Perhaps if more people in these churches directly and indirectly involved with these stories would have that kind of sorrow over something that awful being done to one of their own….

    You can’t force emotion and deep feeling, but isn’t that the point? People being molded into the image of Christ have feelings and deep sorrow, for heaven’s sake – don’t we?

  17. Patrice wrote:

    How is it these members’ jobs to forgive the abusers? The abusers hurt the children, not them.

    Funny you should mention that, because I just want you all to know that I have forgiven Mr Furtick’s haters.

    What a beautiful picture of God’s love in action!

  18. Patrice wrote:

    How is it these members’ jobs to forgive the abusers? The abusers hurt the children, not them. The children were sinned against, not them. They are attempting something that isn’t theirs to do.

    I think they usurp forgiveness and slather it on as quickly and thoroughly as they can because they are desperate not to look at evil squarely in the face. They are particularly terrified that it is so close to them, and looks so much like them. They will sacrifice the children so as not to face the monster under their bed.

    Cowards.

    Well said.

  19. AnonInNC wrote:

    the word “hero(TM)” has a very different definition in the “madcap world of Steven Furtick”

    Your comment made me laugh.

  20. GovPappy wrote:

    Give these folks a darned lifetime achievement award on their deathbed when/if they have successfully not molested anyone since publicly repenting. Or don’t. Because it’s still backwards.

    This is a great comment. No one knows if he has or has not stopped accessing internet child sex abuse. Add to that, people must be aware that there is something mentally unbalanced in his psyche to turn to this sort of thing because “he is sad his marriage broke up.” As my husband said “So, he turns to internet child sex abuse? What’s with that?”

    Many people thought the priests who were caught molested kids because they were celibate. They molested kids because they were pedophiles, not because they were celibate. This is not a problem of enforced celibacy. It goes much deeper than that and intensive counseling is necessary along with rigorous protection of children in his sphere of influence.

  21. This describes the problem with a Furtick, as well as many other pastors.

    ““In normal circumstances,” wrote Hitler’s henchman Albert Speer in his memoirs, “people who turn their backs on reality are soon set straight by the mockery and criticism of those around them, which makes them aware they have lost credibility. In the Third Reich there were no such correctives, especially for those who belonged to the upper stratum. On the contrary, every self-deception was multiplied as in a hall of distorting mirrors, becoming a repeatedly confirmed picture of a fantastical dream world which no longer bore any relationship to the grim outside world. In those mirrors I could see nothing but my own face reproduced many times over.”

    Given that everyone has some blind spots, our greatest hope of self-correction lies in making sure we are not operating in a hall of mirrors, in which all we see are distorted reflections of our own desires and convictions. We need a few trusted naysayers in our lives, critics who are willing to puncture our protective bubble of self-justifications and yank us back to reality if we veer too far off. This is especially important for people in positions of power.”

    Tavris, Caroll; Elliot Aronson (2008-05-05). Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts (pp. 65-66). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.

  22. My father still doesn’t know and never will. I finally told my mother when I was in my mid 30’s and oh, how I wish I could take it back to spare her the heartbreak. (Mom passed away in ’03.) I wish I had been brave enough to tell as soon as it happened. Male babysitter, filling in for his sister, our usual sitter. We were from a small, very tight-knit and otherwise very loving chapel. Not long after, I started sleep-walking. Then began the lifelong affliction of using food to soothe. I developed a very strong aversion to conflict leading to avoidance at all costs. Which of course leads to repressed anger which leads to depression and anxiety. And yay! Avoidant Personality Disorder. But enough about me…but I do wonder, often, “how many others?” because you just KNOW there were more. If only I had been able to tell, could they have been spared? Ugh, you start to think about it too much and the swirl of emotions and questions can be overwhelming!

    I live in Charlotte, and I am a done. I’ve never been one to picket or protest (see: Avoidant Personality Disorder) but man, this Furtick stuff just enrages me. I can’t even imagine if my molester had been held up as a hero. I am horrified for Vigue’s victims and for Mr. Artis. I would actually consider picketing at this utter fakery of a “church”. It makes me want to hurl, even more so now, knowing even more history behind the Furtick family. My hands are shaking but here we go….POST COMMENT.

    http://psychcentral.com/disorders/avoidant-personality-disorder-symptoms/

  23. doubtful wrote:

    This is why I don’t believe in forgiveness as a divine commandment.

    I think it is instructive that there are no commands to forgive in the Old Testament. At that point, the sins of humanity might be described as petty insolences against an infinite and impervious Creator whom human beings cannot possibly harm.

    It is not until God empties himself, to the point where others have power and authority over him and abuse that power to his detriment, that he talks in earnest about forgiveness. When a preacher cannot demonstrate to people that God takes the loss of their dignity (and more) personally and has a plan to restore it, that preacher has no authority to teach on forgiveness.

  24. Jed Paschall wrote:

    ‘Give us the sentiment…without it’s substance

    In my opinion, that statement is the cornerstone of how things are done at Elevation. They want the sentiment of religion without the substance of true discipleship.

  25. __

    “What Ever Way The ‘Wind’ Doth Blow?”

    hmmm…

      Steven Furtick has set up a 501(c)3 religious brew-thru, a religious outreach, NOT a new testament church. When folk get ‘saved’, he tells them it is time to leave. He has rubber-stamped his church board, and refuses to release financial information. he has been known to stage fake church individual baptism(s).  he brushes off his detractors with “Hey Haters”. The kids just eat this stuff up! So the pedophile hero thing is just the latest fopa?

    Growing pains?

    We try ‘harder’, huh?

    (sadface)

    Sopy

  26. @ dee:
    The life of most churches and the Christians who populate then is usually pretty ‘ordiinary’. Possibly even lukewarm. (I’m not convinced it is meant to be this way, I don’t think it is, but in reality it often is.)

    So to make the whole enterprise more attractive, a member with a particularly grisly past who apparently repents is paraded ‘to encourage the others’. You can even get an autograph from the star of the show. But I fear ‘show’ is all it is.

    Surely someone who had genuinely repented of this kind of crime would be too deeply ashamed to show their face, not sign autographs?

    It makes the church feel its gospel really is the power of God to salvation. Why sometimes it is spectacular, miraculous even! Another mini Saul to Paul. Very different from the average church service where nothing ever happens. Man full, God empty, if God withdrew the Holy Spirit you wouldn’t be able to know it.

    It’s something I need to mull over again, but I don’t think victims are required by God to unilaterally forgive those who have abused them; not without a genuine change on the part of the offender. After all, God doesn’t unilaterally forgive us our evil-doing, forgiveness is not unconditional.

    I wonder if a church body that is very quick to forgive sins in the manner described in this incident consists of people who take a light view of the sin in their own lives, and presume upon the grace of God.

  27. @ dee:

    It is much more likely that they chose to be “celibate” because they were not turned on by women of their age when they made that choice, but rather found themselves sexually attracted to children, and thought the priesthood might save them from both a failure in marriage and their attraction to children.

  28. @ doubtful:
    Forgiveness is the most abused and misued concept in Christendom. The way it is taught actually enables, excuses and even promotes evil. Even Jesus required repentance.

  29. Dee,

    Thank you for sharing your background in the context of child sexual abuse. “No wonder!” is what I kept saying to myself as I read it. I am sorry about your Mom; that must be painful for you.

    My thinking on this whole business of some churches/pastors being so ridiculously vocal, vehement, and “in your face” with their acceptance and forgiveness of abusers is that they hold some twisted notion of Matthew 7:1-2.

    “For with the judgment you use, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

    It’s as if sexual sin is the worst possible sin they can think of, and “by golly, we’re going to forgive these folks so we don’t get judged for our sins” which of course they consider much less egregious to a Holy God.

    They essentially throw out the New Testament’s emphasis on that fact that we are all pretty much hosed if God were to judge us based on our behavior and thoughts. They add so much superfluous junk to The Lord Jesus’ work on the cross in their efforts to market THEIR vision and THEIR message that they miss the exquisite and comprehensive nature of exactly what He did for us.

    And as you have pointed out in this post and others, they are so busy tripping over themselves to trumpet their great act of forgiving a heinous crime, that they forget that there was a flesh and blood victim of that crime who needs their care. It is just mind boggling.

  30. Patrice wrote:

    They will sacrifice the children so as not to face the monster under their bed.

    Cowards.

    Their god has more in common with Molech than with the God of Abraham.

  31. To elevate a pedophile to hero status at Elevation Church, or anywhere else, is to show your total depravity … but that’s what New Calvinists do best. New Calvinism, if allowed to blossom to its full TULIP, is antinomianism … an abuse of grace which produces a lawlessness in the minds of its followers. That’s why sex offenders can sign autographs in church and folks like Mark Driscoll can make unrepentant comebacks among this crowd.

  32. OnlyEleven wrote:

    Then began the lifelong affliction of using food to soothe. I developed a very strong aversion to conflict leading to avoidance at all costs. Which of course leads to repressed anger which leads to depression and anxiety. And yay! Avoidant Personality Disorder.

    This sounds uncomfortably familiar. *hugs* (virtual hugs are safe, I find)

    You are not alone.

  33. OnlyEleven wrote:

    My hands are shaking but here we go….POST COMMENT.

    Thanks for writing your comment. I am sure it was difficult. May the peace of Christ be with you.

  34. @ OnlyEleven:
    I am so glad that you hit send. I must adit that I got a bit teary while reading your comment. It is for you that I wrote this post. It is for the heroes-the kids who survived and suffered in silence. Who today, as adults, continue to feel the pain when some dudebro preacher makes a big flaming deal over a guy who actually claims to do what most people do every day -not using internet child sex abuse.

    You are the real hero in this story.Your story is important. Furtick and others need to hear your voice. Please continue to hit *send.* I am so, so sorry for the abuse you were forced to endure as a kid.

  35. Max wrote:

    To elevate a pedophile to hero status at Elevation Church, or anywhere else, is to show your total depravity … but that’s what New Calvinists do best. New Calvinism, if allowed to blossom to its full TULIP, is antinomianism … an abuse of grace which produces a lawlessness in the minds of its followers. That’s why sex offenders can sign autographs in church and folks like Mark Driscoll can make unrepentant comebacks among this crowd.

    Just posted about a registered child sex offender listed as violent on the Virginia registry who is the Care Director pastor at Fairfax Community Church.
    http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/07/convicted-child-sex-offender-listed-as.html?m=1

  36. Amy Smith wrote:

    Just posted about a registered child sex offender listed as violent on the Virginia registry who is the Care Director pastor at Fairfax Community Church.
    http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/07/convicted-child-sex-offender-listed-as.html?m=1

    Good Lord!! Right there on the website, hiding in plain sight in the Q&A with Eric Nickle:

    Q: What book has had a big impact on you?
    A: The Bible, AA’s Big Book, and SA’s White Book

    For the uninformed or willingly ignorant at Fairfax Community Church, SA = Sexaholics Anonymous! The “white book” is a how-to recovery manual. I’m sorry, but even repentant violent sex offenders should not be on church staff! What are these church leaders smokin’ in Fairfax?!

  37. Dee…

    I FINALLY get this place. I normally was just directed to your site from searches that talked about subjects/people I was looking into. I thought it was just another blog of complaining.

    I have hung around here for the past month or so and started reading just about everything, some doctrinal things I may disagree with but what I see is someone/something showing the abuse that is out there from the victims point of view. I will never look at an abuse article in the same way ever again.

    One last thing…you got your big girl pants to make mention of a pastor’s wife of the Furtick type machine. I’m sure you will get a response, I just hope you can share it.

  38. @ Ken:

    I don’t know why churches feel the need to parade around a supposedly repented pedo as a trophy in our day and age, when the Bible already has examples of people like Paul, who, when Saul, participated in the executions of Christians.

  39. dee wrote:

    They molested kids because they were pedophiles, not because they were celibate. This is not a problem of enforced celibacy. It goes much deeper than that

    Thank you.

    You have myself and a few others who post here who are virgins, and we’re over 40 years old.

    I am celibate, and I have absolutely no desire to have sex with children at all, I have never done anything inappropriate with a kid nor would I ever, I don’t view children in a sexual light at all.

    The Bible calls unmarried adults to a life of celibacy, as sexual activity is said in the Bible to be in marriage only.

    For some Christians to keep insisting that celibacy (forced, as in the Catholic priesthood, or voluntary) causes pedo behavior is actually an un-biblical position (and also very insulting to those of us who are celibate).

  40. lydia wrote:

    Forgiveness is the most abused and misued concept in Christendom. The way it is taught actually enables, excuses and even promotes evil. Even Jesus required repentance.

    Another thing too, is that many Christians demand everything INSTANTLY. This really bothers me.

    If you are going to forgive someone, it has to be instant, think most Christians.

    Same thing with other issues, like mourning / grief. After my mother died, most other Christians I ran into to talk to about it expected me to get over it INSTANTLY.

    A lot of times, things like forgiving someone, or healing from sexual abuse, or recovering from a divorce, or whatever you’re facing, is A PROCESS (all caps for emphasis, not yelling).

    It boggles my mind that most Christians don’t understand this. They extend no grace or patience to someone who has gone through (or still going through) something hurtful or traumatic.

    Christians might give you five minutes to rant or cry about it (whatever painful ordeal “it” may be), but then they expect you to suck it up, move on with life, and act like it never happened.

    It’s very cruel. People need time (weeks, months, or years) to work through things. Healing, forgiveness, etc, are processes. That stuff usually does not happen at a single moment in time.

    And about forgiveness: you can forgive someone of something once, but that may be an on-going process; that is normal too.

    I have a few people from my past who done me wrong. I forgave them years ago, but every so often, I start to get worked up over it and angry with the same people again over the same issues, so I have to forgive them yet again.
    (Maybe that’s partially what Jesus meant by forgiving someone 70 times 7?)

  41. Max wrote:

    New Calvinism, if allowed to blossom to its full TULIP, is antinomianism … an abuse of grace which produces a lawlessness in the minds of its followers.

    I really doubt that their actions are a result of their theology. Rather, I think their theology is cherry-picked to support their goals and values. After all, the “neo-cals” don’t look anything like “paleo-cals” (or whatever we’d call them, lol).

  42. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    I think their theology is cherry-picked to support their goals and values.

    It would appear that way, Dr. F. Where else can young folks go in Baptist ranks to drink, experience potty-mouth preaching, be a church “elder” at age 25, and put women in bondage than in New Calvinist churches! And, of course, all of this was predestinated and covered by grace. I realize I’m an old fuddy-duddy, but ain’t we supposed to be Christlike and pursue holiness in church?

  43. Amy Smith wrote:

    Just posted about a registered child sex offender listed as violent on the Virginia registry who is the Care Director pastor at Fairfax Community Church.

    Oh, good grief! Is good help really so difficult to find these days? What is this church thinking? Will it ever be safe to go back in the water?

  44. Max wrote:

    New Calvinism, if allowed to blossom to its full TULIP, is antinomianism … an abuse of grace which produces a lawlessness in the minds of its followers.

    I don’t completely understand this. I thought new calvinism created a heavy burden of legalism. This seems the opposite of lawlessness, somehow.

  45. An Attorney wrote:

    @ dee:

    It is much more likely that they chose to be “celibate” because they were not turned on by women of their age when they made that choice, but rather found themselves sexually attracted to children, and thought the priesthood might save them from both a failure in marriage and their attraction to children.

    Sort of like the old saw that Psychiatrists get into the profession because they’re crazy to start with and this allows them to self-treat without anyone ever finding out their deep dark secret?

  46. Ken wrote:

    It makes the church feel its gospel really is the power of God to salvation. Why sometimes it is spectacular, miraculous even! Another mini Saul to Paul.

    With a Real JUICY Testimony to boot!

  47. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Funny you should mention that, because I just want you all to know that I have forgiven Mr Furtick’s haters.

    You’re funny.

    Another peculiarity about a congregation offering forgiveness is that they assume that it spiritually cleanses the aggressor. As if saying, “We forgive” means the abuser has been anointed with the lessons learned from facing what he’s done, mourning, repentance, and restitution. The only thing he needs to say is, “I’m sorry.” That’s it. Faster than McDonalds and twice as nutritious!

    But the wounded don’t look very good while healing, and healing takes an unconscionably long time (multiples longer than healing from open heart surgery, how can that be?!), and it’s slippery-slope easy to simply blame them for lack of spiritual character and then put them out of mind.

    Another thought: when we forgive someone who won’t realize his fault, we are doing it for ourselves, to be freed from the chains of the wrong-done. It does nothing for the unrepentant abuser. Not even the love of God Himself can make a difference. There is “forgiveness in the air”, so to speak, but although it is free, it is expensive to accept. And it is important that it stay that way: both free and expensive.

    The unrepentant (and disingenuously repentant) get stuck on the Repeat function. We abused/hurt people slowly move on, but they still go ’round and in each new cycle, more persons are hurt. ISTM, this is a further reason why forgiveness must be thoroughly understood and carefully applied. The demands of justice must not be forgotten after each new incident. Sustained pressure makes a lovely contrast to the relief of true repentance.

    Anyway, that’s how I see it currently.

  48. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Sort of like the old saw that Psychiatrists get into the profession because they’re crazy to start with and this allows them to self-treat without anyone ever finding out their deep dark secret?

    It is called “the Deficit Theory of Field Selection”. My long ago friend in visual perception was nearly blind! Therapists tend to need therapy (actually after being a therapist for a while they really may need it, but the theory says they needed it before! I also had a friend who was in intellectual development in children who had a repeated tested IQ of 95!

  49. I would call them the “Christian” Taliban. The birds of a feather demand that women must be in cowering submission or else be accused of having a Jezebel spirit and silent even if they or their children are physically or sexually abused. The victims are silenced and as you noticed the perpetrators (especially if they are leaders or wealthy) are treated as heroes.

    Ted Haggert declared himself as the victim to all the news agencies and Christian reporters. Never mentioned the horrible damage he did to Christ,the church, the congregation, his family. He broke all agreements he made to get a large sum of money and is now leading a church of sheeple.

  50. Max wrote:

    New Calvinism, if allowed to blossom to its full TULIP, is antinomianism … an abuse of grace which produces a lawlessness in the minds of its followers. That’s why sex offenders can sign autographs in church and folks like Mark Driscoll can make unrepentant comebacks among this crowd.

    I also notice a lot of these guys are big on sin-leveling, and usually under the concept of being big believers in grace.

    They will equate someone doing something like jay walking (a relatively minor offense) to something like a guy raping a kid and say how we’re all sinners in need of grace, so who are we to want to hold the child rapists etc accountable? This sort of thinking bugs and baffles me.

    I do understand that everyone is guilty of sin, as the Bible puts it forward, but to argue that lesser sins are on par with greater ones is something I don’t agree with.

  51. doubtful wrote:

    People that demand forgiveness are people that can not be trusted.

    Ken wrote:

    Surely someone who had genuinely repented of this kind of crime would be too deeply ashamed to show their face, not sign autographs?

    Yes I think so too.

    To demand forgiveness is a sign of faulty repentance. I did a big wrong in my life and when I was eventually offered forgiveness, I cried and cried because I knew very well it wasn’t deserved, it was pure grace. (And so very powerful because of that.)

    And why would you sign autographs unless you are proud of what you’ve done? Proud of the wrong and proud of the repentance. But repentance is an exercise in humility, opposite of pride. I’m afraid that the only lesson this man has learned from Furtick are new techniques in manipulation and deviousness. Blech

  52. @ OnlyEleven:

    I am sorry you were abused.

    Regarding your linked page on Avoidant Personality Disorder Symptoms. Than you for posting that.

    I’ve only just skimmed it so far, but from what I’ve seen so far, a lot of that seems to fit me.

    I used to have Social Anxiety Disorder (SAD). (Or maybe SAD is a form of, or similar to, APD.) I have bookmarked the page and will read it in closer detail later.

  53. Daisy wrote:

    Max wrote:
    New Calvinism, if allowed to blossom to its full TULIP, is antinomianism … an abuse of grace which produces a lawlessness in the minds of its followers. That’s why sex offenders can sign autographs in church and folks like Mark Driscoll can make unrepentant comebacks among this crowd.
    I also notice a lot of these guys are big on sin-leveling, and usually under the concept of being big believers in grace.
    They will equate someone doing something like jay walking (a relatively minor offense) to something like a guy raping a kid and say how we’re all sinners in need of grace, so who are we to want to hold the child rapists etc accountable? This sort of thinking bugs and baffles me.
    I do understand that everyone is guilty of sin, as the Bible puts it forward, but to argue that lesser sins are on par with greater ones is something I don’t agree with.

    Yes, some sins are worse than others, with different consequences. I seem to recall something about millstones and large deep bodies of water…

  54. Patrice wrote:

    And why would you sign autographs unless you are proud of what you’ve done?

    This autograph thing is just nauseating. Furtick is a freak, and he is running a freak show. He seems totally unmoored from any Christian sensibility…

  55. CB wrote:

    Ted Haggert declared himself as the victim to all the news agencies and Christian reporters. Never mentioned the horrible damage he did to Christ,the church, the congregation, his family.

    This sort of reminds me of this:

    French Man Convicted of Sexually Assaulting Girl Claims Abuse by Catholic Priest Turned Him Into Pedophile; Sues Vatican for $54K
    http://www.christianpost.com/news/french-man-convicted-of-sexually-assaulting-girl-claims-abuse-by-catholic-priest-turned-him-into-pedophile-sues-vatican-for-54k-141790/

  56. refugee wrote:

    I thought new calvinism created a heavy burden of legalism.

    Oh no! That was “old” Calvinism! Christian liberties have been set free by the neo-Calvinists! They can now drink, sway to the beat of drums and hoochie-coochie “worship” teams in tight pants, tolerate alternative lifestyles in their gatherings, preach with potty-mouths (Driscollites), etc. Church leadership kept enough of the old legal parts to keep the pew under control … elder-rule polity, shunning of members who don’t walk the line, putting women in bondage, etc.

  57. Daisy wrote:

    I also notice a lot of these guys are big on sin-leveling

    Exactly! See my reply to refugee pertaining to the legalism of “old” Calvinists vs. liberties of “new” Calvinists.

  58. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Funny you should mention that, because I just want you all to know that I have forgiven Mr Furtick’s haters.

    I will use that as a rejoinder when I get a bit of pushback which I am expecting in the near future. “Nick has forgiven me so back off” will be my mantra.

  59. CB wrote:

    Ted Haggert declared himself as the victim to all the news agencies and Christian reporters. Never mentioned the horrible damage he did to Christ,the church, the congregation, his family. He broke all agreements he made to get a large sum of money and is now leading a church of sheeple.

    I have a rule. If they want us to notice them by jumping up and down in public, then I get to notice them and tell them what I think in public.

  60. A. Stacy wrote:

    you got your big girl pants to make mention of a pastor’s wife of the Furtick type machine. I’m sure you will get a response, I just hope you can share it.

    I am desperately trying to figure out how a pastor can make a hero out of a guy who went to federal prison for child porn. By exploring the past history of his family, I am looking for a clue. I willing shared something from my past knowing that an objection could be raised.

  61. @ A. Stacy:
    Also, thank you for your kind comment and welcome to TWW. I do write to represent the victim as much as possible. Pastors and churches have many people who support them but victims are the lonely ones. They are often looked at like trouble makers, hurting the glorious pastor. That will not happen here.

  62. I wonder if a woman committed a sexual sin and said she was sorry, if she would be considered a heroine.? I recall a woman Mary ??? from Louisiana who had an affair with a 14 year old male and went to prison. Nasty, dirty stuff no matter who is the predator, but there definitely is a double standard.

  63. roebuck wrote:

    Patrice wrote:
    And why would you sign autographs unless you are proud of what you’ve done?

    roebuck: “This autograph thing is just nauseating. Furtick is a freak, and he is running a freak show. He seems totally unmoored from any Christian sensibility…”

    hmmm…

    i guess they shouldn’t feed this Fer Tick guy after midnite, huh?

  64. I don’t know much about religion but these churches seem to have an almost pathological patriarchy. The emphasis is on the man. The man is the centre of the church and home. Children should be disciplined (ie are somehow inherently sinful). Women are also inherently sinful based on the misogyny that is rife in the Old Testament. Men are led into sin and therefore can repent. Women and children are second class citizens There seems to be very warped picture that a man is supposed to be in control of his house and his property (including those dwelling in said house). Move this up and the pastor takes the same role in the church – acting as the man of the house, if you will. Sure, money and power come into it but I’m genuinely thinking these guys really believe in their entitlement. And if you sin? Well a man can repent of his sin. Furtick sees this repentant sinner an equal of sorts (being a fellow christian man). The victims? Well not so much… Kind of puts the whole Karen Hinckley story into perspective too. God’s kingdom isn’t a democracy. My 2 cents, though with the current exchange rate that’s getting to be less and less.

  65. A number of years ago my friend Mary got a call for help from a young mother who was addicted to pills. Mary asked if I would go with her to see this person who I’ll call Sue. She had left her alcoholic husband and with the addiction had a life that had fallen apart. We spent lots of time with Sue getting her into a Christian addiction recovery program and a Bible study. Gradually it all started coming together. Her little daughter (who had been with her through all this) was so happy for her Mom and the good changes. They started going to a church and the little girl into Sunday School. Then I got the call that the Sunday School teacher had sexually molested the little girl.
    I wanted to scream and go beat up the SS school teacher. He got off free as the authorities were just putting pedophiles on probation. The mother and the little girl were severely damaged. As a Christian and a former social worker I have to say “trust no one”. Our minister left his wife and recently ran off with the Jewish Veterinarians wife (this isn’t a joke). Those just coming to Christ are destroyed by these things and it makes me so sad and angry. If I saw one of them sitting signing autographs at a table in the church I would be inclined to turn the table over and make a scene

  66. @ Patrice:

    It would be all of a piece with the attitude prevalent among these churches: Children are little blessings, precious gifts from God, arrows in the quiver–but not people. The perpetrator sinned against the congregation when he made them look bad and also broke God’s purity rules. But you can’t sin against a nonperson. Also note that the therapy (sic) offered to child victims in these churches focuses on making sure they don’t make the congregation look bad or feel uncomfortable or mention any purity rules that might have been broken–because that would be sinning.

  67. Explaining why he didn’t fire Geren Holly’s dad said, “I should have taken the heat and called Keith ugly names and joined the We Hate Keith club. It was a difficult time. Forgiveness is a large part of Christian life.”
    .
    I now see where Steven Furtick gets the “Hey Haters” from (haters = people who want preachers to preach from the bible). Holly’s dad thinks you either elevate and celebrate pedophiles or you are a “hater.” Holly’s dad doesn’t admit that CRIMES were committed. He never addresses how hateful and disdainful his actions and words are to the victims and all the other innocent children in the church. Was Jesus a hater regarding that millstone deal? I don’t understand why following the laws of our nation that are put into place to protect the vulnerable means you are “taking the heat” or why he believes this requires calling the convicted sex offender ugly names? What are those ugly names exactly? Registered sex offender? Pedophile? With 17 confirmed child victims what should he be called? This is delusional.
    .
    This obsession with protecting the popular youth pastor also needs to go. Predators hone the skill of being the popular youth leader for the very purpose of getting close to victims and garnering post molestation discovery support from adoring fans. It is their stock in trade. We should not protect them because of their excessive worldly popularity – we should suspect them because of this. Does anyone really know a truly devout godly leader who is obsessed with popularity? Does an obsession with excessively youthful popular clothing, accessories, cars, music, hair style and slang remotely resemble the mandates for disciples as outlined in the epistles and gospels? Were Peter and Paul ratchet dudes who performed dance-offs to Soulja Boy or Terror Squad while wearing pimp hats and slub knit t-shirt dresses over super skinny rolled up chinos? Maybe there was a reason for that not being the case?

  68. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Olivia wrote:
    Norm’s story is the polar opposite with child pornography. Was Steven enamored with the details, the drama, etc? He definitely created an aura around Norm to encourage others to adulate him and…they did!
    Was Pastor With Vision jealous because he didn’t have such a JUICY JUICY JUICY testimony? “Come on, Norm, tell me again — IN MORE DETAIL (nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean know what I mean)!”
    And after all, Norm’s sin wasn’t HOMOSEXUALITY(TM).
    Guess at Elevation it’s OK to bang little kids as long as it’s not Same-Sex.
    What I find hard to believe is how so many people at Elevation Church never asked what Norm was going to prison for.
    Good Little Tithing Units, Aren’t They?
    “Keep Tithing, Number 10432, maybe you’ll get 3D! Or a pat-pat-pat on the head (and dog biscuit) from Pastor Himself!”

    Technically we don’t know which sex Norm Vigue prefers. We only know the video contained two tweenie boys and two tweenie girls performing various sex acts. We also know they found evidence of prior trolling on kiddie porn sites on his temporary files that appeared related to far younger children than tweenies. I personally don’t think we can conclude, based on this lone transaction, what Norm’s predilection is. Maybe he is a heterosexual hebephile. Maybe not. This was his first purchase from this company. Maybe he was specifically trying to buy less controversial material until he confirmed this was not a sting site. Federal sentencing is more severe for prepubescent porn. Treatment inside the system is also more harsh for pedophiles than hebephiles.

  69. dee wrote:

    I will use that as a rejoinder when I get a bit of pushback which I am expecting in the near future. “Nick has forgiven me so back off” will be my mantra.

    And here comes the first pushback:

    Shock Revelation: Discernment Ministry uses Mantras.

    Make sure, incidentally, that you don’t accidentally put Old Nick has forgiven me, so back off. He’s not even 50 yet.

    🙂

  70. @ Jed Paschall:

    I concur with others above that this is a really well-observed comment. Not trying to bask in reflected glory or anything, but I’d like to pick up the baton somewhat.

    I think another motivation behind the cheap empty forgiveness you described is that it’s an easy way to fake a miracle. Once we’ve accepted that we’re never going to perform any of the signs or wonders that Jesus and the early church performed, we need something else to back up the huge claims we make for ourselves: namely, that we speak God’s own message to humanity. So, we talk about “lives transformed by the word of God” or similar. And a serial sex-offender weeping tears of remorse is a great, cheap way to pretend that a life has been transformed. (The only ray of encouragement in the story as told here is that the offender himself was uncomfortable with all the adulation he was getting.)

    More could be said about lopsided Protestant emphases (plural intended) on the conversion experience, and our tendency to exaggerate it, but it’s dry in Scotland at the moment and I need to go and make a load of concrete before it rains…

  71. Sopwith wrote:

    i guess they shouldn’t feed this Fer Tick guy after midnite, huh

    It’s all your fault Sopy, you made me laugh so hard I had a coughing fit…

  72.  __

    “Guilt By Association?”

    hmmm…

    Dee,

    hey,

      Holly Furtick is not responsible for her father’s actions. She is like yourself a good christian, a wife, a mother, and a wonderful homemaker and very supportive of her husband and her children. IMHO You may have ‘possibly’ given her the wrong impression of what you are doing here. She has to ‘cope’ as well as everyone else, could you please be mindful of that, huh?

    ATB

    Sopy 🙂

  73. Right: well, that’s the concreting done for today – this morning’s weather window just about stayed open. Another 4.5 metres of our driveway fixed! Oh, and I hung out the washing too, so I’m hoping the weather window remains open for a bit longer.

  74. I wonder if we have a recorded instance of a victim getting to sign autographs because they forgave in the time allotted by the church.

    Didn’t think so. This whole thing is so backwards.

    They want to practice sin-levelling, but repenting from one sin gets you no accolades, while repenting from another gets you the church equivalent of a book deal and a speaking tour, or, an actual book deal and speaking tour. Yet, when folks want to hold someone accountable for their crimes or have them put in the time and serious effort to effect a changed life, that’s being condemning.

    In the immortal words of bounty hunter Jubal Early, “Does that seem right to you?”

  75. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    I think you’re onto something there.

    Saw a comment on SSB where one was hinting that if we have a problem with a convicted pedo marrying a woman and having kids of their own, we don’t believe in “the power of the gospel”. Huh? The power of the gospel is shown in the thief on the cross, *who still died* for merely stealing. Where are we promised that “the gospel” will change us physically, or do away with consequences? It’s not condemnation to say a man still needs jail time, or a lifetime of therapy and close supervision for his crimes. Maybe this all stems from Christian culture not really believing that these issues are anything more than spiritual? Are we really still in the “drive the demons out/cure the pedophile” stage of human thought?

  76. Jack wrote:

    I don’t know much about religion but these churches seem to have an almost pathological patriarchy.

    You know enough to make a great observation.

  77. CB wrote:

    If I saw one of them sitting signing autographs at a table in the church I would be inclined to turn the table over and make a scene

    Wow! What a painful story. Unfortunately, with current attitudes in some of today’s churches, I would recommend that families do a sex offender search on all members of church staff before attending. Also, I would make sure that my kids were never left alone (even with other kids present) for one minute with any staff member of volunteer.

    It is obvious that many churches are not taking this stuff seriously. Norm is signing autographs? What sort of pastor would think this is appropriate. Also, one has to wonder at all the people who got his autograph as well as wonder about Norm who allowed this to happen.

  78. Ken wrote:

    Shock Revelation: Discernment Ministry uses Mantras.

    Funny, 🙂

    I have a question. What in heavens name is a discernment ministry? All of us are called to be discerning in our day to day lives. We all make judgements from which tomatoes to buy to which church to attend.

    Doesn’t every human being on the face of the plane use discernment every day of their lives?

    I have had people use the word “discernment” like it is a four letter word. I am happy to embrace the idea that I try to be discerning. I hope everyone does.

  79. dee wrote:

    Doesn’t every human being on the face of the plane use discernment every day of their lives?

    If you take a look at who wins elections, apparently not!

    My sister reminded me of something I said, but had forgotten, not long ago: the bible talks about the gift of distinguishing os spirits, not the gift of discernment.

    The former is more spontaneous, but no less important for that, the latter developed by learning and experience; applying the bible to life. Takes effort.

    I suppose a discernment ministry, such as Lighthouse Trails or Ken Silva’s former ministry, fills in the gap caused by most Christians being unwilling to ask difficult questions or think about the things they are being taught in their churches or they read in the latest paperbacks. To check things against the bible. But you are absolutely right, this is a job for the whole body of believers, not a group of experts.

    Too many believers have been told Judge not so often that they fail to see through the scam behind Touch not the Lord’s anointed.

  80. I can’t help but think that Furtick’s embracing of a pedophile is an outworking of evangelical Christianity’s long held worship of conversions resulting in “miraculously changed lives”. It would only be natural for him, in order further authenticate his ministry, to place on full display a man, who under his pastoral care has experience such a successful transformation. The not so subtle implication for the rest of his flock being, “you, too can have an Elevated Life® if you faithfully follow me”. Remember Furtick and his ilk didn’t spring up ex nihilo he is a child of evangelicalism.

  81. refugee wrote:

    Max wrote:

    New Calvinism, if allowed to blossom to its full TULIP, is antinomianism … an abuse of grace which produces a lawlessness in the minds of its followers.

    I don’t completely understand this. I thought new calvinism created a heavy burden of legalism. This seems the opposite of lawlessness, somehow.

    Lawlessness is a very midunderstood and controversial issue that will cause some consternation here.

    If you note in 1st John the problem with being lawless. And Jesus said the Pharisees were lawless. Being legalistic can be lawless because they were twisting or making up their own interpretation.

    Laws are not always a bad thing. Like the law to love. And Law is not always referring to Mosaic law. Lawlessness would be akin to behavioral cheap grace we see in this post for a Ped. What about the victims?

  82. dee wrote:

    I have a question. What in heavens name is a discernment ministry? All of us are called to be discerning in our day to day lives. We all make judgements from which tomatoes to buy to which church to attend.
    Doesn’t every human being on the face of the plane use discernment every day of their lives?
    I have had people use the word “discernment” like it is a four letter word. I am happy to embrace the idea that I try to be discerning. I hope everyone does.

    I’m not Ken, but I think I can answer your question.

    There is a discernment that is a supernatural gift of the Holy Spirit listed in Romans 12. This is different than the natural discernment most people have to make everyday decisions or choices.

    One example of the supernatural gift of discernment is noted in Acts 16:18 when Paul recognizes the spirit manifesting itself through the woman who followed them for days and commands it to come out of her.

    There may be others, but this one comes to mind. So it’s the supernatural ability to differentiate between the natural/fleshly-motivated actions and those of an evil spirit.

    Hope that helps.

  83. dee wrote:

    @ GovPappy:
    The pugs have agreed to bark incessantly and run around in circles when they meet you.

    My punishment is greater than I can bear.

  84. GovPappy wrote:

    They want to practice sin-levelling, but repenting from one sin gets you no accolades, while repenting from another gets you the church equivalent of a book deal and a speaking tour, or, an actual book deal and speaking tour. Yet, when folks want to hold someone accountable for their crimes or have them put in the time and serious effort to effect a changed life, that’s being condemning.

    I thought Son of Sam laws would apply in such cases. These are laws designed so that criminals are unable to take advantage of the notoriety of their crimes. Churches should not parade around repentant criminals for financial profit.

  85. dee wrote:

    We all make judgements from which tomatoes to buy to which church to attend.

    I can remember way back in the glory days of Calvary Chapel that if you didn’t ‘pray about’ those tomatoes, you weren’t fully ‘trusting the Lord’.

  86. dee wrote:

    I have a question. What in heavens name is a discernment ministry?

    It’s seeing DEMONS under every bed and possessing everyone else except yourself, of course. And you can LARP being the Only Remaining Real True Christian hero in a Frank Peretti novel.

    “DEMONS! DEMONS! DEEEEMONS! SHEEKA-BOOM-BAH! bam!”

  87. Muff Potter wrote:

    I can remember way back in the glory days of Calvary Chapel that if you didn’t ‘pray about’ those tomatoes, you weren’t fully ‘trusting the Lord’.

    And remember, There Is NO Salvation Outside Calvary Chapel(TM).

  88. Clay Crouch wrote:

    I can’t help but think that Furtick’s embracing of a pedophile is an outworking of evangelical Christianity’s long held worship of conversions resulting in “miraculously changed lives”.

    With a side benefit of JUICY Testimonies where all the Respectable Church Ladies can get all the JUICY details and indulge in all the Vicarious JUICY Sin while still staying Righteous and Respectable.

  89. @ GovPappy:
    One thing they don’t seem to take into consideration is that the pervert could easily use their cheap grace for his own selfish reasons. After all pervs and such have played the long con to that point. Perhaps the miracle of Cheap grace is just another variation. Better to be wise as we must protect victims and really should not rub their faces in it by promoting something that looks nothing like serious metanoia.

  90. Ken wrote:

    Shock Revelation: Discernment Ministry uses Mantras.

    And your church doesn’t?

    I’m not even talking about traditional Christian mantras such as the Hail Mary or Jesus Prayer. What else can you call a 7/11 Jesus-is-my-Nanny Praise & Worship Chorus? What else can you call fifty repeat choruses of “Just As I Am”?

  91. Jenny Islander wrote:

    @ Patrice:
    It would be all of a piece with the attitude prevalent among these churches: Children are little blessings, precious gifts from God, arrows in the quiver–but not people.

    Don’t forget Uruk-Hai, Living Weapons for The Culture War Without End.

  92. GovPappy wrote:

    Saw a comment on SSB where one was hinting that if we have a problem with a convicted pedo marrying a woman and having kids of their own, we don’t believe in “the power of the gospel”.

    Well, it depends. I not only believe in “the power of the gospel” to change hearts and lives, but also in the continuing signs and wonders following it – including, but not limited to, miraculous physical healings beyond the reach of medical science to explain or replicate. But that hardly means I believe every claim of a miracle. There’s no shortage of exaggerations and plain old hoaxes, and if I’m going to call something a miracle, then I want to be clear first that it is one.

  93. Regarding Flag Ken’s comment on mantras:

    If I understand correctly, Ken was parodying the sort of claim that might be made against TWW by writers who don’t like what TWW is doing. I don’t think he was suggesting TWW is a “discernment ministry” (in the pejorative sense), nor that it is using mantras.

  94. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    GovPappy wrote:

    Saw a comment on SSB where one was hinting that if we have a problem with a convicted pedo marrying a woman and having kids of their own, we don’t believe in “the power of the gospel”.

    Well, it depends. I not only believe in “the power of the gospel” to change hearts and lives, but also in the continuing signs and wonders following it – including, but not limited to, miraculous physical healings beyond the reach of medical science to explain or replicate. But that hardly means I believe every claim of a miracle. There’s no shortage of exaggerations and plain old hoaxes, and if I’m going to call something a miracle, then I want to be clear first that it is one.

    Sure. He’s more than able, and He has in the past. It’s also clear He chooses not to, more often than not, and judging by the research of competent individuals in the area of pedos, He almost always chooses not to miraculously deliver them from their physical desires. Heck, I’m not even comfortable with that thought. Regardless, a claim and show of repentance does not equal a miracle.

  95. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I don’t think he was suggesting TWW is a “discernment ministry” (in the pejorative sense), nor that it is using mantras.

    Oh, I know that! But it got me to thinking. What is a discernment ministry? We have been called that along with other bloggers. What I don’t understand is why TGC, Al Mohler, Russ Moore, etc are not.

  96. I was a supporter of Voice of the Martyrs for many years. When the head of VOM committed suicide because he molested a little girl we did recieve letters from VOM but I was bothered.
    I called and talked with the new VOM head and asked “Do you have criminal background checks done on your staff and/or volunteers?” “No, why would we?” he replied. Obviously because your former head commintted suicide for molesting a child. He and many of your staff frequently go in and out of countries where child prostitution is rampant. I also asked if they had done any investigation into the past trips by this man and his close volunteers because birds of a feather often flock together. Again the answers were no and upon probing it was obvious that none of those things were going to be done.
    As worthy as I had thought of VOM in the past I now choose not to support that ministry as they refuse to do criminal background checks of staff and volunteers.
    Not that the checks will catch all the predators but it is a start and there should be other proceedures and policies in place to protect chldren and people.
    Focus on the Family has been quick to deal with predators that have wormed their way into the ministry and they are not protected from the authorities

  97. @ Daisy:

    There is something a bit off about slicing up a loaf of bread that resembles your favorite pet 🙁

    Maybe I don’t have a British sense of humor?

    Maybe I’m a bit off?

  98. __

    “Conspicuous Pastoral Religious Consumption?”

    hmmm…

    It is really simple Dee, Steven Furtick is apparently practicing “WTFtheology”(tm).

    He has degrees and a ‘call’ and an ordination certificate, so he gets ta do stuff like that.

    Young people in your town just eat it up!

    A previous kiddy porn pedophile, promoting pastor, is particularly conspicuous in any crowd.

  99. CB wrote:

    Focus on the Family has been quick to deal with predators that have wormed their way into the ministry and they are not protected from the authorities

    We covered the VOM controversy. Our good friend Wade Burleson reached out to the family of the child who was molested and spoke with the father.

    Do you know how many people wanted to deny that White had molested the child. Several people claimed, on this blog, that he committed suicide to martyr himself for VOM! They could not accept that White could have been a pedophile. How sad and naive.

    Could you get me the references to Focus and the Family and their response to pedophiles? I would love to read a good story for a change.

  100. Joe2 wrote:

    GovPappy wrote:

    They want to practice sin-levelling, but repenting from one sin gets you no accolades, while repenting from another gets you the church equivalent of a book deal and a speaking tour, or, an actual book deal and speaking tour. Yet, when folks want to hold someone accountable for their crimes or have them put in the time and serious effort to effect a changed life, that’s being condemning.

    I thought Son of Sam laws would apply in such cases. These are laws designed so that criminals are unable to take advantage of the notoriety of their crimes. Churches should not parade around repentant criminals for financial profit.

    Now that’s interesting. Anybody want to comment on that?

  101. Daisy wrote:

    The Bible calls unmarried adults to a life of celibacy, as sexual activity is said in the Bible to be in marriage only.

    There is a growing underground of Christian people who believe no such thing and who are opting for a responsible and pragmatic approach to human sexuality. Few will admit it though. If sex was that big of a buggaboo to the Almighty, He would have done better to make it no more enjoyable or sought after than getting the wheat and barley crop in.

  102. Muff Potter wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    The Bible calls unmarried adults to a life of celibacy, as sexual activity is said in the Bible to be in marriage only.
    There is a growing underground of Christian people who believe no such thing and who are opting for a responsible and pragmatic approach to human sexuality. Few will admit it though. If sex was that big of a buggaboo to the Almighty, He would have done better to make it no more enjoyable or sought after than getting the wheat and barley crop in.

    Muff,

    hmmm…

    …are you hocking ‘immorality’ now?

  103. dee wrote:

    I had a friend who believed she needed to pray over getting her hair styled and even what socks she was supposed to wear,

    It was that whole stultifying mindset that got the cognitive dissonance going with me. I could no longer be a good little robot and passively acquiesce any longer.

  104. Muff Potter wrote:

    @ Sopwith:
    Sopy, today I got a two-fer sale goin’ on for only three easy payments of $19.95 !, but if you act now…

    …forget da wheat & barley, da bible sayz all your gonna get is weeds…

    You decide.

    …sow to da wind…reap a wirlwind?

    hmmm…

    (sadface)

    Sopy

  105. Muff Potter wrote:

    Few will admit it though. If sex was that big of a buggaboo to the Almighty, He would have done better to make it no more enjoyable or sought after than getting the wheat and barley crop in.

    If memory serves me correctly, I think it was Augustine who taught that if sex is pursued (even within the bonds of matrimony) for anything other than producing progeny, it’s sin.

  106. __

    Muff Potter wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:
    Few will admit it though. If sex was that big of a buggaboo to the Almighty, He would have done better to make it no more enjoyable or sought after than getting the wheat and barley crop in.
    If memory serves me correctly, I think it was Augustine who taught that if sex is pursued (even within the bonds of matrimony) for anything other than producing progeny, it’s sin.

    Augustine was blow’in smoke.

    🙂

    Sopy

  107. Predators are gifted at grooming pastors/adults as well as the potential targets.

    I wouldn’t be surprised to discover pedophilia embedded somewhere in Boitnott’s family. He sure acts like a “groomed” person: minimizing, blame-shifting, emotional (or some kind of strong) attachment to the offender (could be some form of blackmail or maybe strong denial for some kind of abuse in his own life),
    cover – up, and the list goes on.

    If so, the daughter also grew up in a “grooming environment,” and was possibly attracted to a “groomed” husband as well.

    So many “leaders” live for the perks of “leadership.” They don’t ever committ to
    the substance of the concept.

  108. Sopwith wrote:

     __
    “Guilt By Association?”
    hmmm…
    Dee,
    hey,
      Holly Furtick is not responsible for her father’s actions. She is like yourself a good christian, a wife, a mother, and a wonderful homemaker and very supportive of her husband and her children. IMHO You may have ‘possibly’ given her the wrong impression of what you are doing here. She has to ‘cope’ as well as everyone else, could you please be mindful of that, huh?
    ATB
    Sopy

    I appreciate your many insights Sopy and none of us want to be held responsible for what our relatives do. However, I would like to respectfully disagree with you on this. Holly isn’t just a quiet stay at home mom. She is involved on all kinds of levels at Elevation Church and keeps a high profile both at Elevation and on social media. Her followers call her Pastor Holly (not sure where she was ordained) and she has even preached weekend services at Elevation. She is by no means in the background.
    .
    Steven has written about Murrill Boitnott in at least one of his “NYT best selling” books. He has also often spoken about and written on social media about his great, godly father-in-law. More importantly Steven is one of the largest and most important endorsers and supporters of Murrill’s current ministry, Macedonian Call Ministries (MCM) You can read Steven’s effusive endorsement of Murrill here http://acts169.org/testimonies.html MCM lists Elevation Church as an “affiliate” which means that Elevation supports Murrill’s ministry financially out of Elevation’s tithes and offerings. MCM is located in SC (Furtick’s home state) not far from where Furtick keeps his private company Steven Furtick Ministries, also in South Carolina (as opposed to North Carolina where Elevation is based). To pretend there is no connection other than a little shared DNA between Elevation Church and Murrill Boitnott is disingenuous.
    .
    I personally did not read anything above or even in the comments so far that remotely impugned Holly. No one has implied that Holly is responsible for Murrill’s actions. I believe that Dee was trying to help explain the inexplicable which is Elevation recruiting and elevating a pedophile as their hero. This post was extremely helpful to me because Dee is right that dealings with pedophiles in our formative years does influence how we view and respond to pedophilia. That is why she shared such a personal story.
    .
    Steven and Holly met when they were still teenagers. It is inevitable that Holly’s pastor dad would have influence on Steven’s development as a young man and as a pastor. When the Furticks met Chunks, Norm and Jay in Shelby, NC back in 2005-6 it was at Steven’s first big post-seminary church assignment shortly before he launched Elevation with the help of those other three Shelby residents. Holly was very involved in those early days and would most certainly have known all about the first volunteer who drove all the way from Shelby every week to serve at Elevation. The church only had 70 people to start and Norm was the greeter from day one.
    .
    I’m also not sure why you assume that Holly is having coping issues with this Norm decision. She knew him from Shelby. Norm had Steven writing to the court in his defense within the first year of Elevation’s existance so the Furticks knew what was going on. As a mother of small children she could have put her foot down and said that Norm could not volunteer with the general public, which included interaction with children. She had already seen what a child molester in the ranks cost her father. The real question for me is why did Holly not intervene more and tell Steven that this could end badly for his new church plant? That tells me that Holly probably does not have much of a problem with pedophiles serving in churches. That is her opinion and she is entitled to it.
    .
    I do not know Holly. If I am missing something to this story please let me know. I saw this post as a way to explain why anyone would open a church with a pedophile representing the face of Elevation on Day One and continue this policy even after that pedophile becomes a federal convict and a registered sex offender. From a strictly cost benefit perspective this makes no sense. Watching how Steven had Norm take the pulpit and admit to some vague online crimes in the exact same format as Murrill gave Geren the pulpit to admit to some vague sexual sins seems to draw a sharp line from one playbook to the other. It helps make sense of this mess.

  109. @ LT:
    Thank you for that additional background which is very interesting. The whole thing with the Furticks and Boitnott makes no sense to me.

  110. dee wrote:

    Oh my goodness. The bakery is correct. Pugs are like a loaf of bread. Thank you for making me laugh!

    You’re welcome. I like pugs too, but I’ve never owned one. When I see pug things, photos, or stories, I think of you.

    I thought the pug loaf was kind of cute, but I can see how the other poster above found it a little unsettling. 🙂

  111. @ Muff Potter:

    I just don’t see the Bible supporting anything other that marital sex.

    Churches don’t do nearly enough to support single celibates. About 99% of their attention and support (emotional, financial, etc) goes to married couples.

  112.   __

    “Guilted By Association?”

    LT,

    hey,

    hmmm…

      Everything I said about Holly Furtick is true. She is a wonderful Christian. She does manage her home well. She does take care of her husband well, She does take care of her children well. What other secondary roles she ‘may’ play at Elevation Church are rarely seen an impediment (if at all) to Steven Furticks church decisions as senior pastor. And that was my point. To guilt her by association was a poor decision, as Wartburg Watch could have left Holly Furtick’s name out of it by simply naming Holly’s father and former ‘suspect’ pastor, as a relative. Dee promised not to go after folks families.  By simply naming Holly, who is (to my knowledge) under no current scrutany for improper missconduct, was IMHO in ‘this’ instance improper. My call stands.

    ATB

    Sopy

  113. Can anyone call themselves a ‘pastor’ and set up shop? And preach any old thing that people want to hear? ‘Evangelical’ seems to mean whatever anybody wants it to mean. What a mess.

  114. @ dee:

    I don’t have those article2 handy but living near Colorado Springs FOF even releases those things to the local paper The Gazette. eg a Spainish speaker doing the voice on Sp lang childrens tapes, or the announcer who committed adultry on the bicycle tour etc. We also know many who work for FOF

    When did you cover the VOM story so I oculd read it in your archives?

  115. Daisy wrote:

    I just don’t see the Bible supporting anything other that marital sex.

    The Bible has a long history of supporting or not supporting just about anything its readers fancy or don’t fancy.

  116. Sopwith wrote:

    Steven Furtick has set up a 501(c)3 religious brew-thru, a religious outreach, NOT a new testament church. When folk get ‘saved’, he tells them it is time to leave. He has rubber-stamped his church board, and refuses to release financial information …

    Not a defender of Furtick, but in 2014 Elevation became a member of ECFA. Revenues of $29 million, assets of $40 million. One year’s highly summarized financial info is available here:
    http://www.ecfa.org/MemberProfile.aspx?ID=36038

  117. __
    Mark wrote:

    Sopwith wrote:
    Steven Furtick has set up a 501(c)3 religious brew-thru, a religious outreach, NOT a new testament church. When folk get ‘saved’, he tells them it is time to leave. He has rubber-stamped his church board, and refuses to release financial information …

    Mark: “Not a defender of Furtick, but in 2014 Elevation became a member of ECFA. Revenues of $29 million, assets of $40 million. One year’s highly summarized financial info is available here”:
    http://www.ecfa.org/MemberProfile.aspx?ID=36038

    We have yot to acertain his compensation derived from Elvation Church.

    Why?

  118. Daisy wrote:

    lydia wrote:
    Forgiveness is the most abused and misued concept in Christendom. The way it is taught actually enables, excuses and even promotes evil. Even Jesus required repentance.
    Another thing too, is that many Christians demand everything INSTANTLY. This really bothers me.
    If you are going to forgive someone, it has to be instant, think most Christians.

    A lot of times, things like forgiving someone, or healing from sexual abuse, or recovering from a divorce, or whatever you’re facing, is A PROCESS (all caps for emphasis, not yelling).

    I pointed the “process” part out on a Facebook posting, saying that I couldn’t forgive instantly. Someone responded, it’s a good thing God doesn’t feel that way about my sins, because he does forgive instantly.

    I still maintain that it’s impossible for a person to forgive instantly.

  119. Muff Potter wrote:

    If memory serves me correctly, I think it was Augustine who taught that if sex is pursued (even within the bonds of matrimony) for anything other than producing progeny, it’s sin.

    Augustine brought a lot of baggage into his writing. Including sexual baggage; Auggie was a real horndog in his younger days. He might have flipped one-eighty into as anti-sexual as possible as an overreaction.

  120. Tina wrote:

    I pointed the “process” part out on a Facebook posting, saying that I couldn’t forgive instantly. Someone responded, it’s a good thing God doesn’t feel that way about my sins, because he does forgive instantly

    Jesus Juke.

  121. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    If I understand correctly, Ken was parodying the sort of claim that might be made against TWW by writers who don’t like what TWW is doing.

    Spot on. I had a fake headline in mind, plus the irony of taking what Dee said about mantras seriously when complaining about discernment!

  122. An Attorney wrote:

    Perhaps someone should put the man’s name and his crime on a billboard that the goers to Furticks cult will see on their way to Be Elevated, or rather Degraded, because that’s what actually happens!

    Good idea!!

  123. Patrice wrote:

    How is it these members’ jobs to forgive the abusers? The abusers hurt the children, not them. The children were sinned against, not them. They are attempting something that isn’t theirs to do.

    Thank you!! This is exactly the truth. It infuriates me when people try to forgive for acts that were committed against others.

  124. CB wrote:

    I would call them the “Christian” Taliban. The birds of a feather demand that women must be in cowering submission or else be accused of having a Jezebel spirit and silent even if they or their children are physically or sexually abused. The victims are silenced and as you noticed the perpetrators (especially if they are leaders or wealthy) are treated as heroes.

    Well said.

  125. Lydia wrote:

    @ GovPappy:
    One thing they don’t seem to take into consideration is that the pervert could easily use their cheap grace for his own selfish reasons. After all pervs and such have played the long con to that point. Perhaps the miracle of Cheap grace is just another variation. Better to be wise as we must protect victims and really should not rub their faces in it by promoting something that looks nothing like serious metanoia.

    This is well worth repeating….incessantly, if possible.