"Some people see me primarily as a loving, gracious person and others have seen me as a person who's angry or short-tempered or careless with words and harmful and so that contributes to the confusion."
Mark Driscoll (in an interview with Brian Houston)
Mark Driscoll (Screen Shot)
A month ago we reported on the 'disinvitation' of Mark Driscoll by Brian Houston at a Hillsong conference 'down under'. At the top of that post we included the familiar phrase "Houston, we have a problem."
Well, it turns out that Houston didn't have a problem after all and went on to conduct the interview with Mark Driscoll prior to the conference, despite a well-publicized protest. At the Hillsong conference in Australia, the pre-recorded video interview between Brian Houston and Mark and Grace Driscoll was shown on the big screen. You would think that 'Pastor Houston' would have had a little compassion for those who have been hurt by Driscoll and are in the process of trying to heal their wounds. As far as we're concerned, Houston's charade only served to re-open those wounds. So what's really going on here, and why did the Driscoll show have to go on?
It appears that Mark Driscoll — the pastor currently without a church — is attempting to relaunch his ministerial career after a leave of absence that has lasted close to a year. Although Driscoll has recently delivered a few sermons as a guest preacher, it has been Brian Houston who has given Mark Driscoll a very public platform. Then in very short order 'Pastor Mark' published his upcoming speaking schedule on his website. Looks like the Driscoll show must go on… The BIG QUESTION is, how many will be attracted to this Phoenix Rising out of the Mars Hill Mark's Hill ashes?
Getting back to the pre-recorded conversation between Brian Houston and Mark and Grace Driscoll, we are grateful to Warren Throckmorton for sharing the audio of the almost hour long interview. It was obvious that the line of questioning had been prepared ahead of time and that the Driscolls had scripted responses. In case you decide to forego the interview, here are what I believe to be the main points the Driscolls wanted to make.
– Mark Driscoll started the ministry way too young. He was just 25 years old and admits he should have been mentored by a seasoned senior pastor before planting a church. (02:40)
– The last year has been really hard for Mark and Grace. The Driscoll children have been terribly hurt because the church felt like an extension of the family. (05:30)
– Reformed in his theology. Mark Driscoll explains his theology to Brian Houston and says in the past he would have fought for reformed theology. (07:50)
– Mark Driscoll has become controversial and in the minds of some people, even Toxic. Driscoll went on to say: "Some people see me primarily as a loving, gracious person and others have seen me as a person who's angry or short-tempered or careless with words and harmful and so that contributes to the confusion." (08:44)
– Driscoll says he drove himself to a point of not being well as he built the ministry (fatigued adrenal glands and two intestinal ulcers). It drove the team beyond their limits, and he now regrets that. Now he wants to draw people and not drive people. (11:14)
– If Driscoll could change something about the past, he says he would have waited longer to start the church, he would have brought them under a Godly spiritual couple in oversight to pastor them, he wouldn't have gone out until they said it's time, he would have had them serve as his oversight in governance, he would have paid more attention to emotional health and well-being and any bitterness in his own soul so there wasn't anger or hurt of defensiveness that was driving some of his motivations. He would have more keen to draw Grace out and worked on the friendship with her in the early years. (14:10)
– Houston says that Driscoll created an angry world and then asks whether the world he created devoured him. Driscoll responded that to some degree that was true. (16:37)
– Houston points out that one of the reasons Driscoll was so controversial was because of his strong criticism of others. Houston mentions Driscoll's criticism of Joel Osteen, who is a good friend of his. Driscoll shares that he has reached out to Osteen and privately apologized. (18:48)
– Driscoll mentions his reformed and charismatic bent. (22:47)
– Driscoll says he has learned quite a bit about relationships and how your life is defined by your relationships. (24:05)
– Driscoll says as the leader he has to bear responsibility for the lion's share of the break-up of Mars Hil Church. (25:20)
– Driscoll admits that he has said some ungodly, unwise things about women. He posted under a pseudonym in his late 20s – took a character role and was fighting. He had it taken down, and in 2014 the content was reposted ont he internet. He said it is one of the great regrets of his life. He said he can't read some of the things he wrote now. (26:00)
– Brian Houston specifically mentions some of Mark Driscoll's inflammatory remarks, and Driscoll responds. (27:50)
– Houston says the Christian leaders say a lot of words, and inevitably some regrettable words will slip out. (30:00)
– Houston and Driscoll discuss their differences regarding women in leadership roles in the church. Driscoll goes on to admit that Mars Hill would have been better off with some Godly women in ministry. They Houston asks where the barriers are between men and women serving in ministry. Driscoll clarified saying he believes in male governance and male and female mnistry. (30:30)
– Mark Driscoll says he is not a misogynist, but the things he has said have led people to believe that. Grace says she has never seen her husband as a misogynist. (36:00)
– Houston asks whether Driscoll's apology is too little too late? (38:47)
– Driscoll says he never got to say good-bye to the church members. He didn't expect to resign, but it got complicated. (39:35)
– Pride, anger, and domineering leadership were character flaws the Board pointed out, and they wanted Driscoll to work on these before coming back in early January. Then he explains that the Lord spoke to him and Grace about leaving Mars Hill Church. (Mark gets very emotional). Then he explains how they submitted their resignation letter the next day. (42:00)
– Houston says: "So there's a lot of grief", and the Driscolls agreed. Then they talk about how God is the great restorer. (43:50)
– Brian Houston says he understands that Driscoll is not trying to defend his actions and then asks whether anything was said that was so untrue and so hurtful. Driscoll says he would like to, but he declines to respond because he says his goal is not to win. Then he receives a round of applause. He believes holding his peace would be best for the gospel. (45:05)
As they wrapped up the interview, Brian Houston asked Mark Driscoll what are three to five things he has most learned in recent years to which Driscoll responded
1. A deeper appreciation for the grace of God.
2. Exceedingly grateful for my wife.
3. Faith – we don't know what's next. I would like to teach the Bible. The plan is to not get ahead of the Lord.
Houston explained after the interview concluded that the actual conversation lasted one hour and fifty-three minutes. An entire hour was edited out. We understand that this video will be shown at the Hillsong Conference in Great Britain, which will be occurring in a little over a week. You may recall that Mark Driscoll had some highly offensive words to say about the Brits in his interview with Justin Brierley a couple years ago.
There was a peaceful protest in Australia which played a big part in Mark Driscoll not being interviewed live at the Hillsong Conference. We understand that protestors passed out flyers that included the following (see screen shot below):
There are plans for another protest in Great Britain when the Hillsong Conference takes place.
Wenatchee the Hatchet has written a series of posts (14 in all) discussing the Brian Houston interview. In one post Wenatchee shares his reaction to the portion of the Houston / Driscoll interview dealing with Driscoll's resignation (which he has transcribed). These are his concluding remarks:
Driscoll told Houston "we never got to say goodbye". That's what the resignation letter already did. It turned out Mark Driscoll resigned from the only church he was eve ra member of, a church he co-founded back in 1995. He resigned after he had, as he told Houston, both initiated an investigation and agreed to submit to the findings of that investigation right up to the point that he heard some voice say "a trap has been set."
Was that voice worth resigning over? Was that voice worth actually or just potentially dismantling the social lives of the Driscoll children over? After all back in 2007 it wasn't unknown that the Driscolls and Petrys visited each other. When Munson's shunning edict came down it's not like that didn't establish as policy an ending of social interactions between families.
So if the latest Driscoll account is true (and it does seem to fit the Thrive narrative, more or less) then the Driscoll resignation comes across as impulsive and reactionary; it also comes across as a decision that flatly contradicted what Driscoll said he would agree to comply with. It's not difficult to imagine, as Driscoll said was a concern since the resignation, that there'd be some worry the Driscoll kids might be upset or resentful about their parents decision to bail on the church they helped plant that the kids grew up in.
And as Mark Driscoll used to teach about husbandly/fatherly headship, it means that it's your responsibility even if technically you'd say it wasn't really your fault. Regardless of whether Mark can claim God said " a trap has been set", it was Mark Driscoll who decided to interpret that as "we should quit" rather than to submit to the leadership he said he was going to submit to and see where things led.
In an interesting twist, Brian Houston / Hillsong will be coming to Seattle on October 26. It appears there will be no shortage of topic to discuss in the coming months regarding Mark Driscoll and to some degree Brian Houston.
Will Driscoll be able to rise from the ashes and build another ministry? We will definitely be watching…
Doesn’t anyone have any discernment anymore? What is it with celebrity pastors and their die-hard followers?
First?
First!! Deb if your daughter or son in law needs help moving I can drive down and help out! Totally serious!
You probably bulked up a little to John Piper’s disgust. Good girl!
I wrote this the other day, its me dissecting Ed Stetzer’s latest article for Christianity Today on church membership. My biggest question (and correct me if I am wrong) but it seems as if Ed is implying that if you reject membership you are also rejecting God? Going forward whenever Ed Stetzer or Jonathan Leeman speaks about membership or 9 Marks my posts are going to have Cartman say “respect my authoritah!” đ
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/07/12/ed-stetzers-warped-view-on-church-membership/
Since he has played the direct line from God card, of course he will rise from his own ashes. As is often said there is a fool born every minute and many fools will run after him. In actuality there are plenty of fools still willing to follow him right now. Jesus must look at them as he did Israel when he spoke of desiring to gather them like chicks in his wings but they will not have any of it. Marks followers prefer to bask in his glory rather than the glory of Christ.
I too find it interesting he still uses the title pastor. Who exactly is he shepherding? If it is his family then shouldn’t.everyone call themselves pastor? As much as I love the free church tradition this and all the sad stories rising from “church autonomy” make the Catholic bishopric sound.pretty darn good.
Oh and first to read then comment đ
Did you see this? Stephen Furtick is speaking at the Hillsong Conference in Sydney.
http://hillsong.com/conference/sydney16/
@ Eagle:
The task is complete, and nothing got damaged. Thanks for your kind offer.
@ Eagle:
Thanks for letting us know.
It’s more like a series, there are 14 posts discussing the Brian Houston interview.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/search/label/Houston%20interviews%20driscolls
There now look to be six accounts of how and why Mark Driscoll resigned. Put them together and he comes off saying he agreed to submit to the restoration process and initiated an investigation into his fitness for ministry, then told his kids the plan was to comply. Then, merely a day later, he claims God audibly released him from the responsibilities of ministry. If he didn’t want to resign he could have chosen not to resign. “A trap has been set” is not the same as “you are released from ministry”. Even if the latter were “true”, in the OT narrative literature guys called to leadership positions who are told they are no longer in the job tended to be guys like King Saul.
Been busy, and so haven’t commented a whole lot at a whole lot of places.
How depressing, there are so many abusive leaders still in command and this guy is only down and not out.
Recently finished a nine-part series surveying the evolution of Mark Driscoll’s ideas on masculinity and its connection to his public persona.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/search/label/markulinity
It doesn’t seem it was quite as prominent in the earlier years as it became after 2000 and the WW2 stuff. There’s a case to be made the earlier years were characterized less by the manly man concern Driscoll became famous for and more by a generational rift narrative. The interesting part in the Brian Houston interview was hearing Mark say “I want to compel young men to grow up” stuff, and talking about how specifically he had a heart to reach the young college-educated men, which confirms the soundness of what Bent Meyer commented about here at Wartburg years ago, about how the founders of Mars Hill were interested in reaching the young guys who would become the establishment of tomorrow. I didn’t get that vibe from Mike or Lief, to be plain, but I DID get that vibe from Mark, big time.
In a recent post I float the idea that Mark’s blue collar version of Jesus was eventually going to detach from the upwardly mobile white collar donors he ultimately wanted on board. If this is the case it was arguably easier to suggest as a possibility once it turned out the “walls” of The City were permeable.
In other news, not only is today the Flyby Day for New Horizons, but the google doodle recognises the fact⌠how cute is that.
At the time of writing (07:37 UTC), New Horizons is around 210 megametres from Pluto and closest approach is due in just over four hours.
An abusive, narcissistic, domineering, misogynist, deceitful pastor, with little insight into the teachings of Jesus gets mad that someone is challenging him successfully, and so takes his $$$$ and runs. Now expects people to accept him after a very public, extended but weak apology? Bombast is his only real tool.
Until the money stops flowing, there will be no shortage of these type of stories. In a sense, they are a protected class.
“A trap has been set”??? That begs the question, who set the trap? Maybe Mark Driscoll himself??? Hmmmm.
He started too young ….. He should have had oversight …….. Yes, all best magicians go through years of training under a mentor to master the art of deception.
WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:
Thanks for all your hard work Wenatchee. I'm adding this link to the post.
@ Nancy2:
I was so disappointed that Driscoll uttered those words. Blame shifting — not an impressive leadership quality. That one little comment clearly demonstrates that Mark Driscoll (and his wife) haven't learned much during the past year.
I don’t want Mark Driscoll coming to Phoenix. I don’t want my Sunday mornings filled up with having to warn people off his toxic, woman-shaming religion masquerading as Christianity. Even if I am outside the household of faith, I do recognize rotten when I see it.
Driscoll is speaking at some man conference being run by a pastor at Scottsdale Bible Church. I looked at their elder list. All white and male. The preponderance of BBAs and MBAs is astounding, followed up by the number of men involved in/working at ministries. Of course, not a single woman. And not a single man who works for a large corporation. Not.a.one.
I don’t know how these men think they can relate to the thousands upon thousands of us who work for large corporations in the Phoenix area. They don’t know what it’s like to be cogs in the machine. They’re LEADERS. And I’d hate to work for any of their companies, because I bet women are definitely in second place there.
It’d be interesting to do a study of these elder-led churches to see how many are led by men who work in ministries, are sole proprietors or leaders in closely-held businesses.
Eagle wrote:
It’s getting to the point where an invitation to speak/be interviewed at Hillsong conference is a clear indicator that you can without great loss disregard the man in question in the future.
Let me suggest a few more speakers for future Hillsong conferences:
– Ed Young, Jr.
– James MacDonald
@ mirele:
We may take a closer look at that conference soon. Thanks for the info.
So, I am wondering what commenters here think about how Driscoll ought to proceed given his checkered ministerial past?
How might this contrast with how you think he’ll actually proceed? Why?
These are open ended questions, I don’t have an agenda beyond my own curiosity. Just want to see what you all think about this.
Personally I think Driscoll is far too compelling (for good or ill) to not remain a public figure, and I have less of a problem with this than I would with him re-entering the ministry. I still think he needs to make amends with the now scattered Mars Hill community, and re-submit himself to the discipline of the elders of Mars Hill as much as is possible. I don’t see myself as ever comfortable with him in an official ministry capacity again – he may have accomplished some good things while at Mars Hill, but his legacy is too tainted by the harm he did to a lot of people. That said, given the fact that he is a public figure, I would hope he could devote himself to using his platform to making amends for his wrongs, and take responsibility for the culture in organizations like Acts 29 that he helped to create.
What he’ll probably do is start a new church, and try to distance himself from his Mars Hill past as much as possible without ever really acknowledging the damage he did there. He’ll probably behave better – at least for a while. But his personal charisma, and the fact that there is no lack of discerning Christians in the US will allow him to build yet another ‘successful’ ministry. His approach will be influential for other ministers with tarnished reputations who are seeking to re-rehabilitate their careers (e.g. Mahaney, et.al.), and the American church will largely allow this. Of course there will be a significant vocal minority that will dissent and continue to offer meaningful criticism, but on the whole it’ll be business as usual in the Evangelical Industrial Complex.
Jed Paschall wrote:
I think you meant ‘…no lack of UNdiscerning Christians…’
Are we comparing Driscoll’s comeback to the rising of a phoenix? I dunno about that. I’m worried that he’ll turn out to be more like a vampire…
So now Driscoll doesn’t just “see things”, he hears things, too?
Well, at least this time the message wasn’t pornographic, although I do find it transparently convenient and self-serving.
@ roebuck:
Oops! Yes, that was a nasty oversight, thanks for catching that.
In my opinion, he should fade away into the woodwork. I am SO tired of “celebrity Christianity”.
@ Jed Paschall:
@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:
Thanks for the info you provide. How do you find time to write so much?
I am forgetting the early MD info. When he was at WSU did he connect with Douglas Wilson? In his book he does not name the church he was with.
Sooooo … does this mean Driscoll is ready to repent, recant, and burn his books? Unless I missed the sackcloth and ashes, Driscoll has embarked upon a nonrepentent comeback and the naive are ready to put him back in the saddle. A throng of Driscollites across the country anxiously await his triumphant reentry and a new volley of Tweets they can build their ministries on.
I haven’t listened to the whole interview (I will), but have been offering my perspective for months on the bullets Deb has posted. I could see this coming. Driscoll is a survivor, not a victim. Various Scripture comes to mind as I digest this disturbing development (e.g., 2 Peter 2), but one particular passage keeps flashing “Beware of Alexander the copper-smith; he has done us much harm.”
I am honestly a bit confused. Doesn’t Mark realize that you can’t talk your way out of a situation that you acted your way into?
“He was just 25 years old and admits he should have been mentored by a seasoned senior pastor before planting a church.”
I hope SBC’s church planting team over at the North American Mission Board heard this. They are planting “lead pastor” Driscollites by the hundreds, fresh out of SBC seminaries without ministry experience (unless NAMB considers reformed indoctrination by seminary professors as sufficient mentoring).
I did a post about this on one of your previous Driscoll threads:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/06/12/hillsong-church-disinvites-mark-driscoll-while-james-river-church-embraces-him/comment-page-1/#comment-205304
Driscoll seems to be watering down or jettisoning much of his gender complementarian views.
I think he’s doing so not out of heartfelt conviction that he’s sexist about women and that comp is unbiblical, but he wants to fit in with the charismatic churches, some of which give more opportunities to women to lead or preach.
He’s trying to get in good with those guys, so he’s shifting his positions on some topics, including women in the church and how women are treated.
I don’t like Driscoll’s sexist / gender complementarian views, but I also don’t like someone shifting (or appearing to, pretending to shift) due to marketing and appearance, not because they had an honest change of heart.
I don’t trust Driscoll and don’t believe he should be in the pulpit ever. He never should have been a preacher to start with.
So, MD gets to run away from church discipline, but the little peon in the pew must submit to discipline, or else.
I do not get why men and women put up with authoritarian, ego ruled pastors. I must be too old to understand why anyone is attracted to or willing to sit under the teaching ( so called ) of these men. So they are gifted speakers, what does that mean anyway?
Perplexed in CT.
@ Mae: DITTO!
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Remember, they did considerable editing of the interview, cutting its length in half. đ
Max wrote:
An excellent comment that definitely bears repeating.
Jed Paschall wrote:
If he wanted to follow the instruction of Scripture…he would get a job.
If Global fund was fraud, (as it appears to me) then..let him who stole steal no more…let him work with his hands. etc.
He is probably not qualified for many positions. If I was an employer, I would take into account that he has a past issue with domination. Next, I would take into account the issue of anti-female mindset. I would not want him working in close quarters with females.
Jed Paschall wrote:
He should go to a trade school and learn something like brick laying. He would then be kept from authority over large numbers, something Driscoll has proven he is incapable of handling. At the end of his life he would then have something he could look back on as an accomplishment rather than the destruction of so many lives.
Janey wrote:
Humans are intensely social creatures. Hungry for community in ways that often times override their natural God given alarm bells and moral compass within.
A trap has been set.
______________________
Mark Driscoll was associated with the type of people willing to associate with Mark Driscoll. What about such a crowd would make anyone think they wouldn’t set a trap?
Law Prof wrote:
indeed, “Night of the long knives”
@ Mae:
I’m just gonna drop the mic for you.
@ Bill M:
Like button!
He should find a different career. If he matures in Christ in said career, he can then mentor people. This is the same approach that any Christian can take. One need not be a celebrity, lead pastor, elder, or any other such titled person to do what God has asked believers to do.
@ Bill M:
Well put Bill.
@ Bill M:
Excellent suggestion. That is an honourable thing to do.
nathan Priddis wrote:
Good question. He did connect with Doug Busby, who succeeded Jim Wilson at the Evangelical Free Church of the Palouse. He also was leading a Bible study within a month of deciding upon a church-planting career (while still an unbeliever). He hasn’t said, AFAIK, whether the Bible study was associated with the church, a campus ministry, or on his own.
@ Bill M:
Excellent suggestion for Driscoll’s future!
@ Jed Paschall:
That was something I brought up in this comment:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/06/12/hillsong-church-disinvites-mark-driscoll-while-james-river-church-embraces-him/comment-page-1/#comment-205304
I think he should quit being a professional Christian and become a librarian, dentist, air conditioner repairman… anything that does not involve making a buck off Jesus in any way.
But as I said previously, he is either unwilling or unable to do it and probably considers being a pastor, and going on speaking tours in churches, easier and more profitable than holding a normal 9 to 5 office job, because that would actually require effort, as well as being held accountable by a supervisor.
@ Bill M:
Those are my sentiments exactly. đ
Law Prof wrote:
Is that kind of like the Groucho Marx saying about “I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member”?
đ
@ Jed Paschall:
“So, I am wondering what commenters here think about how Driscoll ought to proceed given his checkered ministerial past?
How might this contrast with how you think heâll actually proceed? Why?”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ought? I hate that word as much as I hate the word should.
here’s what I would just LOVE!:) Disappear, md.
here’s a better answer: bake a home-made pie for each person you ran over in your stupid bus.
you know, mix the flour, salt, butter, ice water, knead it, roll it out, lay it in the pie dish, crimp the edges real nice, berries, apples, cherries, rhubarb stir in a little sugar, a little lemon juice, bit o’ cornstarch perhaps…. maybe a nice lattice top doing the over-under thing. brush it with milk and sugar. put it in the oven, set the timer, maybe check it once or twice, nurture it along. when it’s done, take it out of the oven, then drive to someone’s house (the woman to whose husband you said “if you don’t shut her up i will”, Leif, Paul Petry, Bent Meyer, Tim Gaydos,….) and give it to them. Just make one or two pies a day, so there’s enough time to sit and talk with each person.
Spend the next few years baking home-made pies and hand-delivering them, md.
@ elastigirl:
Great suggestion! But he might be afraid the pie would end up on his face. đ
Unfortunately, Hillsong supporting abusive leaders is nothing new. I would point you guys to the whole Mercy Ministries scandal, which involved Hillsong leadership, and led to Mercy Ministries being expelled from Australia.
@ Deb:
he simply bakes the pie with good will, delivers it with the same, and accepts the just desserts.
It’s so strange how the visions MD has & the voice he hears lead him away from what we would expect christians to be doing – firstly seeing sexual visions of others & secondly not putting himself under the authority he should have & starting a process of putting things straight. Poor Mark, the One True Victim, always getting a get out of jail free card from his lord.
Jed Paschall wrote:
Here is my worthless 2cents.
I think the real question is WHY Driscoll would have any credibility to proceed in what we tend to think of “ministry”, at all? And that is more about others that buy into him than Driscoll. Driscoll could not operate without fans/followers.
Driscoll, IMNSHO, has the classic signs of a sociopathic NPD. They are clever, charismatic and can operate for long periods of time if they have enough power. My question is why anyone would waste their valuable time to go and listen to him, read his writings, etc, unless it is to study an obvious character flaw?
He is actually responding EXACTLY as someone with NPD would respond to what happened. He has unapologetic apologies, blame shifting and now plays the victim. Note the “chaotic” response that blends totally opposite responses. Classic signs. Now we are to believe he is “wiser”. Please. He operates off the fact that so many are so gullible. it is who he is and what he does.
The other question I have is why do we view “ministry” as an “occupation” at all? Why would we discuss someone being able to be in “leadership” or have a “ministry”? Isn’t being a Christian a “lifestyle” first as in good fruit? Wouldn’t it look more like “servant”?
Wouldn’t one of the signs of genuine Christian be that they treat others as they want to be treated? Even some very basic justice?
I think American Christianity is so immersed in the “we are all sinners so we sin all the time” mindset, we cannot see past that. The only thing left is the “degree” of the sins. And everyone has different boundaries for that. Driscoll has become one of the Elmer Gantryesque “we are all sinners saved by grace” freak show at the Christian Circus Maximus. I am not talking about sinless perfection here just basic human decency that an atheist would agree with.
Driscoll will milk the stage opportunities as long as people pay attention to him. The worst punishment for Driscoll will be when people don’t pay him a lick of attention and he cannot milk them of their money.
My question is why wasn’t Driscoll obvious for years before the scandals?
Max wrote:
Max, Driscoll DNA is so ingrained in the SBC it will take two generations if it can last that long with these authoritarian Driscollbots. Thanks, Al Mohler, Danny Akin , Kevin Ezell, Ed Setzer and SBCVoices for protecting and promoting Driscoll/Acts 29 for so long. Good job. It wasn’t like you weren’t warned for years. But he had correct doctrine, right?
Was Mark Driscoll under discipline or being considered for same when he left Mars Hill?
Was he allowed to escape to another church or was he excommunicated!
Has he joined a new church?
Lydia wrote:
Remember this, Lydia? What a difference just five years can make…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPHqtKHch08
By the way, it was this very same year (2010) that C.J. Mahaney spoke at the SBC Pastors' Conference. What 'brilliant' leadership we have in the Southern Baptist Convention. đ
Oh yes, and both Driscoll and Mahaney spoke at an SEBTS conference geared toward college students the year before. đ đ
@ Deb:
OH MY WORD! I forgot all about that! Not only is that ridiculous and immature but it gives outsiders an idea of how bad it is in the SBC with Driscoll worship. And the leaders….Mohler, Ezell, Moore, Stetzer, Akin and others just went right along.
My guess is that this video will disappear now since Driscoll is an embarrassment to SBC leaders.
Anonymous wrote:
1. Who would “discipline” Mark Driscoll at Mars Hill? He was the guru.
2. Who would excommunicate him? The very people who were accessories to the scandals, propped him up and are now trying to build their own ministry gigs like Sutton Turner or got jobs with Sojourn as pastors?
3. What church did Piper join? Is he ever there? Or is he a traveling speaker/evangelist global apostle for John Calvin like his retirement video said he would be? It looks like Driscoll is trying to make his comeback in the world of Charismata.
Muff Potter wrote:
The lengths of TWW’s comment threads alone lend ample support to the thesis.
@ Jed Paschall:
What Mark Driscoll should do is run from any leadership ministry. He is not fit. His ego will always get in the way, and if he hasn’t learned that by now, it isn’t the voice of God he’s listening to.
I am sure God can use him as well as anyone in other areas of service, but leadership is not one of them.
elastigirl wrote:
It’s a good thought in theory, in practice, I doubt he’s logged enough time in the kitchen to even know how to bake a decent pie.
Got to ask….are we too forgiving of ‘ certain people’ in the Christian community, while holding others to a different standard? ( I think we know the answer.)
@ Lydia:
If Driscoll has NPD, which may very well be the case, he isn’t likely to go quietly into an anonymous night. One skill a Narcissist has, it might not even be a skill as much as an instinct, is to find others who will feed their narcissistic needs. The only way a narcissist can reform is through intense and prolonged therapy, and even then they may not. They are so terrified of facing their own deep wounds (usually from their developmental years) that they will almost always defer to the narcissistic urges that keep them from ever having to actually feel that pain, or to feel anything at all. It’s to be expected that they will go on wounding others – how can they regard the feelings of others if they cannot even regard their own feelings.
Like Tony Jones, Driscoll probably cannot stay away from a platform, even if there are compelling reasons why he should, even when those reasons are public. He will, and indeed already is finding a new insular group of allies that will vouch for him and will help him do what is necessary to rehabilitate his image enough to regain a platform – in the face of protest and opposition. There is no shortage of people who are either ignorant of the narcissists past sins, or who do not care because they are attracted to the spectacle of charisma. In many ways the church, owing to twisted views on forgiveness is far more susceptible to narcissistic leaders than others.
@ K.D.:
yes, evangelicals tend to give them a get out of jail free card because they claim to be “saved” and said “sorry”. They actually become somewhat celebrated after that.
I like how NT Wright describes it. He said we are more fully human (God’s intention for His creation) when we are reflecting Christ and less human when we are doing wrong or evil to others. I think we get the whole “human” thing backwards and make “being human” an excuse for doing wrong/evil to others.
@ Jed Paschall:
I wasn’t diagnosing him. But if it consistently walks like a duck…..
There are long term patterns of behavior, which are very public, that indicate there is a real problem there.
@ Jed Paschall:
There is another problem. Our culture tends to love a rogue who gets caught. We see that in the political/social/church realms. Our culture enables and rewards narcissistic charismatic types no matter what they do.
Beakerj wrote:
“Poor Mark” indeed. Let’s suppose, just for a moment, that all that sheep of height in the Biblescriptures about God actually existing were true, and that the notion of a coming judgement were also true. In that case, Driskle would one day find himself answering to an Elder he could not throw under a bus, in a judicial setting he could not run away from, in which – by some means – the evidence is emblazoned for all to see far above his reach or ability to subvert it.
If only he could grasp this, he would understand that those trying by any means to get him to change his attitudes do not all “hate” him.
“(From the post): Mark Driscoll started the ministry way too young. He was just 25 years old and admits he should have been mentored by a seasoned senior pastor before planting a church. (02:40)”
.
This excuse is insulting. Mars Hill was co-founded with two other mature Christian elders. MHC also had a number of other mature Christian elders on their Board. He had the talent, wisdom and experience to guide him and what did he do? When they tried to gently guide him in a biblical manner he threw them “under the bus” then into the “wood chipper” so he could effectively eradicate any real elder oversight. This was his notorious Night of the Long Knives. Mark drove out dozens of mature elders. Think about that? Dozens! He then replaced those men with unseasoned, immature henchman like Sutton Turner and Justin Dean who then forked over the $210,000 Mark greedily wanted in order to cheat to get on the NYT best sellers list so Mark could bask in personal fame and glory. He then had his new toadies pay more in tithe funded consulting fees to support giving Mark raises of over $583,000 per year while simultaneously laying off dozens of hard working employees so they could fund Mark’s $850,000 /yr salary (which was in addition to his hefty speaking fees and book royalties). This is an outrageous excuse used to make people believe “this time will be different….I mean it baby, really.” Paul Tripp said this was the most abusive and coercive church environments he’d ever seen. Does anyone familiar with abusers honestly think “this time will be different?”
.
Why isn’t Driscoll called out on this obvious false and misleading statement? According to my sources, Driscoll is on the cusp of starting a new church again. Knowing all the “mistakes” he made cratering MHC will he plant this new church as an Associate Pastor so he can be “properly mentored by a seasoned senior pastor?” Can anyone on this blog even imagine the Dana White of pastors submitting to anyone? Gaaa
Daisy wrote:
That appears to be Driscoll’s comeback strategy … court the charismatics. He will find a good home in charismatic ranks where the atmosphere is more spiritual and forgiving than us Bible thumpers who demand things like accountability, humility, and repentance. Baptists certainly didn’t run to his aid when he was so brutally victimized and cast out; his SBC followers started distancing themselves pretty quickly when he hit the wall… “Mark who?”. While charismatics focus more on the spiritual than mainline churches, there appears to be a dearth of discernment in their corner of Christendom … something they really need to pray for before they put Driscoll back in the pulpit. Pastor Mark is reinventing himself with a new crowd (which also represents a new market for his books).
LT wrote:
Excellent comment! After everything that has happened, it's still all about Driscoll.
@ Lydia:
Gotcha, I didn’t think you were diagnosing him (and would take no issue if you had) and I agree that whether or not he has NPD, is public behavior has been prototypically narcissistic. In fact, beneath all other analysis of his beliefs, I think much of his public ministry is best understood under the broad category of narcissism – the golden thread that holds it all together. The thing that gives me pause in saying he definitely has NPD is that I have only a view of his public behavior and the accounts of those who have interacted with him – but I’m pretty darn comfortable saying he lands somewhere high along the narcissistic spectrum, NPD or not. His own messianic self-description being the biggest alarm to that fact.
Jed Paschall wrote:
Repentance would be a good start – then the church at large could give him another look. If he doesn’t repent, he could still use his potty-mouth as a bartender, shock jock, or similar employment. Given the great damage he has caused, he should really do something else besides preach. He produced hundreds of authoritarian macho-man Driscollites who now have pulpits – watchblogs like this one have a steady stream of bad news on the trouble they are causing. I would reconsider all that I just said if I ever see Driscoll operating in genuine humility and repentance – I don’t sense that he is there yet.
Jed Paschall wrote:
Bingo! He knows that.
Lydia wrote:
Exactly Lydia! This is the atmosphere that has produced the likes of Driscoll and fed the New Calvinist movement. The whole mess is approaching antinomianism! Driscoll is an entertainer. He has profited from entertaining the goats, not feeding the sheep!
WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:
Now if Mark D. would approach it from that angle and that he was removing himself because the spirit of the Lord has departed him, I would give that a standing ovation. What he is doing instead, not so much
Lydia wrote:
For those of you not familiar with Lydia, she has been operating as a “prophetess” for years sounding the alarm on Driscoll and his sort across the blogosphere. The folks she mentioned put up with Driscoll and his antics because he had the “correct doctrine” (reformed theology) at a time when these SBC leaders needed his voice and Acts 29 church planting network to engage an army of young, restless and reformed to spearhead Calvinization of the Southern Baptist Convention. It was interesting to watch these same ‘ole boys distance themselves from Driscoll when he fell out of favor … when they were done using him, they were done with him.
Dave A A wrote:
I might be getting my wires crossed here since I was thinking of Doug Wilson’s church in Moscow, ID. (dont have a copy anymore of Reformission) I remeber he said he heard the voice at a men’s retreat in ID. I wonder if that was with Evangelical Free Church from Palouse.
@ nathan priddis:
What is the Evangelical Free Church of Palouse story? Is it Neo-Calvinist?
K.D. wrote:
American Christians are some of the most gullible folks on the planet … they don’t have enough spiritual discernment to blow the dust off a peanut! And they don’t have discernment because they don’t pray as they ought. As Christians, we should never be “too forgiving”, but we should never be “too stupid” either!
“(From post): â Driscoll mentions his reformed and charismatic bent. (22:47)”
Can someone please explain how you can follow the teachings of Martin Luther while simultaneously embracing Pentecostalism? Will Mark now speak in tongues? Claim Christians can be possessed by demons? Exorcise those demons on stage? Teach the prosperity gospel like Creflo Dollar? Become a modalist like TD Jakes? Teach Word of Faith Heresy like Kenneth Copeland? Mandate a New Covenant tithe like Robert Morris? Teach that Leviticus and Deuteronomy applies to Christians and put them back under Mosaic Law for fun and profit? Will he claim more audible direct revelations from God? Will he channel the Holy Spirit on stage like Tim Ross? Will he perform miracle crusade healings like Benny Hinn? Will he weep on stage every five minutes like Marcus Lamb? Will he scheme to get a seat on E-21? Will he teach that the Tribulation will begin between Sept 2015 and 5-14-18 at the latest like Jimmy Evans? Will he go to the pagan temples like Ted Haggard and perform screaming rituals? Will he put gold dust in the air vents and have “fire tunnels” like the Arnotts? Will he cackle demonically like Heidi Baker in the middle of his sermons? Will he describe erotic date nights with Jesus in Paris like Ann Voskamp? Will he now reverse his prior position that certain books and movies are heretical to whole heartedly supporting them as the revealed word of God? How does that work?
Or does Driscoll limit himself to embracing the parts of Pentecostal/Charismania that allow him to receive large speaking fees from Hillsong, Gateway, The City plus all his other recent Pentecostal gigs? Will he limit his Charismania to just wearing Nehru collar jackets, snap on Lego wigs like Jimmy Evans and owning jet aircraft like Creflo Dollar and Kenneth Copeland? Will he get his own TBN or Daystar show like the other Charismatics? Will he feel compelled in public to adopt a Rod Parsley Southern accent and scream “glory hallelujah to the Lamb of God” on stage like John Hagee? Will he later skulk back to his designer prayer closet and secretly read Martin Luther’s teachings and confess and repent only to continue the Charismatic charade every weekend as the show must go on? Could someone please explain how Mark Driscoll’s Reformed Pentecostalism works when the teachings are mutually exclusive due to the nature of heresy?
Bill M wrote:
No, no,no!!! He needs to get a job at a pig farm and slop some hogs, like the prodigal son. Maybe he should take a few cohorts into the sties with him, too!
LT wrote:
I can absolutely see him doing melodramatic, foul-mouthed exorcisms on stage, complete with atmospheric light show, eery music and smoke machines. Right up his alley…
Gus wrote:
Gus I think your on to something. It would appear that Hill Song is actually doing us a favor by setting up a reverse Who’s Who for the church. Now when we wonder if pastor so and so is an abuser, chauvinist, megalomaniac ect ect. We just need to see if he has spoken at or been interviewed by Houston.
Man that would make it so easy, sadly there are so man who fit that bill this “conference” would be like CNN 24/7 coverage and no one needs that!
@ Sopwith:
Talk about narcissistic. Anyone who posts something that long and actually expects people to read the whole thing feels much more important than they should
In other news, CERN have announced the discovery of two pentaquarks.
I must caution you all against doing anything too exuberant as you celebrate this news. In particular, please drink responsibly. http://www.drinkaware.co.uk
Jed Paschall wrote:
History records worse. One early edition of the King James bible (which, in its day, made at least 20% more sense than it does today) omitted the word “not” from the well-known sentence “Thou shalt not committethest unto adultery thereofeth”.
I suspect popular reaction was mixed.
LT wrote:
Consistency is not required. Knowing what works to bring people in the doors is what is required. Exceedingly few people can be bothered to look for answers or even to think there might even be questions.
“(From post):â Driscoll says he never got to say good-bye to the church members. He didn’t expect to resign, but it got complicated. (39:35)”
False. Driscoll CHOSE like a small impudent child to take his ball and go home. It was 100% his choice to take the coward’s way out and email his resignation letter in. He didn’t even have the decency to look his elders in the eye when he decided to resign. This wasn’t complicated, it was straight forward. His elders wanted him to say he was sorry and at least feign a tiny bit of repentance for a couple of months before regaining the pulpit. Where’s the trap? If Driscoll was any kind of shepherd he would have put the needs of his sheep to hear this from him directly first, instead of acting like a spoiled child. This alone shows how unfit he is to shepherd anyone. Pastors are supposed to be servants.
.
This God told us stuff is also wearing thin. On October 20, 2014, Robert Morris stated and Driscoll supported that Robert and Mark “decided together that he was going to step out of ministry for a season to get some healing.” Once again Mark is the real victim here. Those two men are speaking in front of 4,000 charismatic preachers yet they never said a word about God divinely and separately telling Grace and Mark to resign? Really? The Holy voice of God spoke to you commanding you to step down from a church you built for 18 years – almost the whole of your adult life – but you “forgot” to mention that at your first post-resignation speaking gig (as well as the next few that followed)? How many other people could let something like that slip their minds? This would be like God telling Moses to bring down the Ten Commandments and show them to the Israelites and Moses climbs down the mountain, puts the tablets on the ground and says, “Alrighty! Who’s up for some manna and Jenga?” When God speaks mighty commandments it should be life shaking! It should be worth mentioning especially when you are trying to explain why you abandoned your flock under the cover of darkness.
.
This “new improved” version of this being God’s Holy will is inconsistent with God’s very nature of desiring confession, repentance and reconciliation for His children. It does, however, sound consistent with Pentecostal crisis management team rhetoric – tell ’em “God said” so they can’t question you. No wonder he’s now a Reformed Charismatic.
@ Jed Paschall:
“Itâs a good thought in theory, in practice, I doubt heâs logged enough time in the kitchen to even know how to bake a decent pie.”
+++++++++++++
He can’t learn? Hell, i’ll teach him myself.
@ Lydia:
“I think American Christianity is so immersed in the âwe are all sinners so we sin all the timeâ mindset, we cannot see past that. The only thing left is the âdegreeâ of the sins. And everyone has different boundaries for that. Driscoll has become one of the Elmer Gantryesque âwe are all sinners saved by graceâ freak show at the Christian Circus Maximus. I am not talking about sinless perfection here just basic human decency that an atheist would agree with.”
++++++++++++++++++++
So, a reality check — in my dealings with all different kinds of people in many different places, Christians are usually very nice people. Strength of character, however, is consistently demonstrated in friends and acquaintances who are muslim, hindu, Buddhist, agnostic or atheist.
seems to me the âwe are all sinners so we sin all the timeâ mindset is license to sloppy living one’s life.
amazing, how the hope and target of Christian culture is basic human decency, and oh the praise and self-congratulations when its dipshit leaders reach up and get close.
Max wrote:
And not just Christians, but certain Christians. Favoritism in the church is worse than some family owned businesses I know of… I went to seminary at the same time a deacon’s kid went. I went to Ft. Worth, he went to New Orleans. He got a big send off. Received monies from the church, they ordained him the evening he left. He parents had money.( Left over a million dollars to the town for a park when he passed.) My mom and dad, well, my dad worked for the city, my mom taught 5th grade.
The other guy never completed NOBTS and never worked on any staff, missions, etc.
My mother and I still discuss the situation and eventually, she and dad changed churches.
In retrospect, I am glad I didn’t get a dime or a send off or anything….but at the time, it was pretty rough…
LT wrote:
The Holy Spirit never gives potty-mouth preachers that gift.
elastigirl wrote:
Ha! I suppose you would teach him a thing or two, not just about pie-making. We might even witness the first girl-on-new calvinist pastor noogie.
One of the more disgusting aspects of this interview comes at the beginning where Brian Houston declares that he is conducting this interview because “there’s a lot to be learned from watching this interview…and I’ll leave you to come up with your own conclusions.”
.
Houston is supposed to be conducting a large international pastors’ conference to help develop good shepherds yet he offers no opinion or words of correction and more importantly never allows any of the many victims to speak. Robert Morris likewise took the stage in March 2014 and October 2014 and chastised all of his thousands of conference pastors that Driscoll was no worse than all of them and they all needed to support Mark regardless of the facts or circumstances.
These gigantic mega pastors do not want clergy “to form their own opinion”. They are standing behind the Mars Hill classroom bully with their arms crossed with their brass knuckles on and their lead pipes in their back pockets ready to beat down any pastor who might DARE to stand up for the abused sheep. Why are the abused elders, pastors and flock never addressed during this comeback tour? The Pentecostals are coming off like Van Patten kids. Where’s Mr Miyagi when you need him?
elastigirl wrote:
There’ll be a whole tsunami of home-made pies in the north-west soon.
K.D. wrote:
K.D., be encouraged! “Many who are the greatest now will be least important then, and those who seem least important now will be the greatest then” (Matthew 19:30).
@ Jed Paschall:
so, i’d grab him in a playful chokehold and knuckle away? he doesn’t strike me as all that tall, so I guess it could work. you think we’d get on that well, though?
@ Gus:
“Thereâll be a whole tsunami of home-made pies in the north-west soon.”
++++++++++
seems like a good use of his time, don’t you think? I mean, world peace could be brokered with a tsunami of home-made pies (even by the hand of md).
@ Gs:
You might want to study actual long time patterns of NPD’s. Sopy has been commenting here for years so regulars have a sense of where he is coming from and what issues are important to him. Some people agree with him and some don’t. Wouldn’t it be simpler to just not read the comment instead of suggest the writing of it is based on a horrible personality disorder that is downright evil?
Max wrote:
I am not discouraged. If anything it helped open my eyes.
@ Jed Paschall:
As far as I am concerned he is one of the easier ones to spot as he has been so obvious for the last 10 years. And that includes not only his behavior but a lot of the things he said. There is a sickness to a man who brags about going door to door in his future wife’s dorm and warning guys away from her. And a man who filters his wife’s emails because women are gossips. He bragged about these things and much more. He actually affirmed sociopathy in ministry as a virtue for many young men.
It is the self deprecating ministerial narcissists that are harder to spot. They feign humility. You either have to work very closely with them or live with them to see it early enough. And even then they mostly surround themselves with ignorant yes people who admire them so if you are not one of those, you won’t last long.
elastigirl wrote:
I agree UNTIL you question their pastor. :o)
@ Lydia:
It is easier to call Sopy a narcissist than it is to deal with the substance of Sopy’s comment, I suspect. Ad homs are easy. Facts and scripture are hard.
elastigirl wrote:
I don’t know, but it would be funny, and I’d pay all kinds of $$$ for pictures – they’d be priceless.
@ Gram3:
It was an accident.
Deb is gonna remove it.
Sorry.
Ps they had to take me to the emergency room at lunch time.
bad day.
đ
—
—
Gs wrote:
This is an uncharitable comment. I have met Sopy, and we have discussed at length topics we cover on this blog. Perhaps he shared that information primarily with Dee and me.
If you find any long comments annoying, just skip over them. Now back to the discussion at hand. đ
@ Sopwith:
I see no reason to remove your comment unless you absolutely want me to. Hope you're O.K.
@ Gs
I almost died today.
The post was an accident.
I have asked deb to remove the post in question.
There’s no place like home…
There’s no place like home…
There’s no place like home…
ATB
Sopy
—
—
Deb,
hey,
Yes, go ahead a delete the post in question, I will repost it with a link to the wonderful material instead.
đ
Thanks 4 all you do!
ATB
Sopy
—
@ Sopwith:
It’s a strange thing, but I don’t really know who you are Sopy, but I love you and I’m praying for you.
Then again, maybe I know you a little bit based on your posting over the years. You can post whatever you want as far as I’m concerned.
But most importantly right now (and not knowing what befell you to send you to the ER), get well, stay well, take care.
Prayerfully, and saddened to hear of your travail,
– roebuck
@ Sopwith:
Oh, Sopy…I’m praying!
…tears here….
__
“You got a friend…”
roebuck,
hey,
That was very kind, thank you!
(tears)
To address your concern, I had complications with my new meds at noon today.
(sadface)
(very bad day)
But I’m kinda like da mailman…’Neither rain, nor sleet, nor dark of night…’Â
or a bad penny đ
(snicker)
Yet, if you were ta look at da bottom of my widdle proverbial shoe, it would read — in big black sharpie: ‘Jesus’.
Thank you mucho for da love & prayers,
I feel it!
hum, hum, hum, someswhere over da rainbow…
ATB
Sopy
—
__
“I fall down”
Victorious,
Victorious,
hey,
Thank you’ze  for helping me up!
Yoh have always been there,
(I need a Kleenex…)
What a blessing you are to me!
All da very best! đ
Sopy
—
Sopwith wrote:
I’ll see you over the rainbow sometime đ
Modern medicine can be a blessing or a curse – hope it’s all sorted now.
Looking forward to a bad penny turning up now and then…
Your posts somehow really bolster my faith – can’t really put my finger on it, but it helps me greatly, and I can’t thank you enough.
Be well!
– roebuck
One comment deleted per Sopy's request. đ
I think Mark Driscoll is just saying what he thinks people want to hear. A person as antagonistic as him does not just change, so I would not believe anything he says. He is a salesman who is selling God instead of Amway soap or used cars.
Mark Driscoll reminds me of Elmer Gantry in the book Elmer Gantry by Sinclair Lewis. Elmer Gantry starts out his career as a door to door salesman, but discovers selling God is more lucrative. When he loses his first church after a drinking binge, he turns to selling New Age religion instead. He eventually gets a large church, marries a woman he does not live because she would be useful for his career, and has a mistress on the side.
__
âIs Mark Drisoll Fit For Christian Ministry?â
hmmmâŚ
Five by Five?
Paint âhimâ with iodine, and mark um âfitâ for da da duty?
hmmmâŚ
  One could possibly render some âcheap shotsâ at this point, but apparently âprotest'(s) would be a more effective and benificial way for âcurbingâ Mark Driscollâs current craving for platform, position, prestige, tax free money, and an overwelming urge to power, huh?
Is Mark Driscill ‘unsafe’ at any altitude, or any speed?
You Decide. [1]
ATB
Sopy
__
[1] “Qualifications for the Evaluation of Elders and Deacons”
https://bible.org/article/qualifications-evaluation-elders-and-deacons
—
@ Gs:
Sopy is anything but a narcissist. He is only posting what he feels is right and good according to the dictates of his conscience. You might want to try some tolerance.
Sopwith wrote:
Sopy do you know that song? We fall down…we get up.
In case you haven’t heard it, here it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saYYm1CkX3M
@ Sopwith:
Do take care of yourself, Sopy. I’m continuing to pray for you and your needs. God bless!
@ Jed
“So, I am wondering what commenters here think about how Driscoll ought to proceed given his checkered ministerial past?”
fwiw ~ ~ ~
Personally, I have yet to observe convincing evidence that Mr. Driscoll is a believer, let alone one of Jesus’ under-shepherds. He really does not register as a pastor with me, but then . . . I am very into avoiding wolves wielding shepherd’s crooks.
Besides that, Frank Houston, founder of Hillsong, when outed as a pedophile, was replaced by his son, Brian, and given a “retirement package.” Some sources report the church uncovered 8 more cases of abuse (never reported to law enforcement) before the abuser’s death in 2004.
Can’t say I have much respect for interviewer or interviewee, tyvm.
Dave A A wrote:
Thanks for the intro. It looks like Palouse is OK and estranged from Christ Church / Douglas Wilson in Moscow.
Hmmm. You know I really don’t remember MD saying where he went to church. I think he said something like (a church that met my qualifications or something like that) Maybe he started at Palouse and switched sides to Wilson in Moscow. Douglas Wilson sounds like a nasty guy. That might have been a relationship made in Heaven…wait..hmm.. never mind HeavenEagle wrote:
Eagle wrote:
Palouse / Moscow background-http://newwest.net/main/article/the_seeds_are_sown_for_moscows_culture_war/
Palouse Church member-http://www.bungechord.com/southernslavery/
EFC Palouse-http://www.efreepalouse.org/history/
@ Eagle:
i take it you are not a big believer in neo-cal lol
me neither
@ Sopwith:
I’m so sorry. I’ll be praying for you and your serious health problems. I read every word of your comment, FWIW. There was very good information there. Thank you.
Dee/Deb/All,
I am a long time reader of WW. Thank you for creating a safe place with a community of people who are seeking truth. Okay, I need prayer.I am getting married and there is a variety of issues that are causing me stress. One in particular has to do with a friend who professes faith in Christ and is gay. This first friend has had issues with a second friend who is a very dear friend of mine as well. The second friend does not want to be around the first friend when the first friend is with their same sex partner. While I have not chosen this approach I actually understand biblically where the second friend is coming from. Anyway my concern is that the second friend will not be able to attend the wedding because of the conviction that the first friend is actively walking in unrepentant sin. Anyway, this whole situation is stressful and really weighing on me. Any prayers would be much appreciated.
Lydia wrote:
A good question, one not easily answered. I’ll see that question and raise another, why is it not obvious after the scandals? From recent information the downfall of Driscoll at Mars Hill was not the leaders suddenly found discernment and fortitude to eject Driscoll, they just ran out of money.
Thus it appears,
there was not discernment before the scandals,
there is not discernment after the scandals,
there is not discernment after Mars Hill imploded,
there is not discernment.
Sopwith wrote:
Is this what was posed earlier today? I was going to go back and read it this evening, didn’t have time this morning.
I hope you are well. I’ve worked with two different fellows who had different conditions that required medications where a slight imbalance sent them into massive tailspins, one was when starting a new med.
Glad you made it through, take care.
đŻ
Florida Church Threatens to Boot Member for ‘Financial Delinquency;’ Gives Her 90 Days to Overcome ‘Hardship’
http://www.christianpost.com/news/florida-church-threatens-to-boot-member-for-financial-delinquency-gives-her-90-days-to-overcome-hardship-141514/
You really have to read the entire page to see just how awful this church is, the headline doesn’t convey the lunacy and greed.
mirele wrote:
I think I put this on an older thread, but it bears repeating every so often đ
Congrats, you have an all male panel!
http://allmalepanels.tumblr.com/
nathan priddis wrote:
You know what would be kind of awesome? If he had to get a regular job and his boss was a no-nonsense woman who won’t take anything off him.
I might pay money to see that scenario. I’d show up with a bag of pop corn and a soda every day just to watch her order him around and watch him deal with it.
roebuck wrote:
As in:
Benny Hinn Sith
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9SS95q2kpg
@ Gs:
You must not be very popular at parties.
@ Sopwith:
I hope you feel better soon and have a better day tomorrow (or today – It’s after mid night as I write this).
@ Sopwith:
Changing meds can be such a bear, I am so sorry to hear about what happened with yours today (might well be yesterday by now). I sincerely hope and pray that your situation works out.
Teri Anne wrote:
That is absolutely what I think about it.
I think he’s marketing himself to appeal to charismatics now, saying anything he thinks they want to hear, so he can start over, start selling Jesus as a product again.
-Even if that means largely retracting former beliefs he promoted heavily before, such as insisting that women should only be barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.
Now all the sudden, (per a recent CT interview), Driscoll thinks women can do, and should be allowed to do, just about anything in church.
__
“The Advantages Of A Thorough Examination Of Christian 501(c)3 Church Leader Candidates?”
hmmm…
Bill M wrote:
***
Bill M,
hey,
Yes, this ‘links’ to the material I accidental posted ‘prematurely’ yesterday, which made for a long posting comment. Â đ Â
  Shortly after I posted it, I had to leave for the hospital, so naturally TWW was left with my grand fopa, to my chagrin, and ‘others’ with a moderate flair up. Thankfully Deb removed it for me. It is sometimes surprising, to view other’s responses when I am not on par and off my game. No matter, I have a Sherman Tank metaphorically speaking parked out front. (snicker) i.e. “the joy of the Lord”!
”
I am reminded,Â
“we glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance…”
… perseverance under trial?  Yes, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to ‘those who love Him.’
Will I rejoice and be glad, because great is my reward in heaven?
Bet your life!
Batter Up!
(grin)
hahahahahahaÂ
ATB
Sopy
__
P.S. In all ‘this’ you greatly rejoice?Â
huh?
…though now, for a while, you may have to suffer the foul actions of Very bad ‘pastors’?
(sadface)
… We don’t use tricks, and we don’t distort God’s word, As God watches, we clearly
reveal the truth to everyone!Â
This ‘link’ in question:
https://bible.org/article/qualifications-evaluation-elders-and-deacons
…This is the letter of my recommendation, that is –always follow the word of God, –in this case, ‘the fruitful qualification(s) of pastorial leadership'(tm), i.e. the reference to the ‘biblical selection of Christian 501(c)3 church leadership’. (r)]
**
Expanded: The Careful Selection of Church Elders:
Scripture:Â
“This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.” -Apostle Paul ; 1 Tim 3:1-7
   Â
đ
—
There is a Dilbert for every situation!
http://dilbert.com/strip/2002-04-03
“It’s not inspirational until he stops doing those things,”
Deb I had forgotten the SBC Rap for acts 29.
@ Anonymous:
I will definitely be praying. That is not an easy situation.
@ Sopwith:
Oh Sopy, I did wonder after seeing your comment, which had a very ‘I’m leaving you this wisdom’ feeling about it. I’m glad you’re still with us đ
I’m not sure GS has been here with us long & so couldn’t spot that Sopy’s post was atypical for him…let’s be merciful.
Nick,
Just saw photos of Pluto on the news. đ
@ Sopwith:
Sorry to read of your trip to ER. Prayed for you. Be who you are. I appreciate your posts, as do many others.
__
Daisy,
You have been a rock of strength to me, thank you!
I’m singing in da rain…
ATB
Sopy
—
Sopy
Sopwith wrote:
((((Sopy))))
Whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lordâs, but I (and most here, as you can see) would prefer that you stick around for a while yet. Selfish, I know but there it is. đ
I hope thereâs effective medication for that suffering you speak of. Develop perseverance, etc, sure enough, but no more than necessary.
All comfort and peace to you, dear Sopy.
Daisy wrote:
Good Lord! That’s why their church is called a “Primitive” Baptist Church! I’m sure glad Jesus didn’t give me only 90 days to overcome hardship. Unfortunately, New Calvinism has also reached back into the primitive dark recesses of church history to restore membership covenants, with authoritarian demands of its members. The article quotes one of the deceived members “I am sure if anyone attends a church, there are bylaws you are required to abide by.” Folks, the only “bylaws” you need to abide by as a Christian are written in the Word. Don’t sign your life away to anything else … avoid membership contracts like the plague!
Lydia wrote:
A very good question, and really the only question that needs to be asked here.
The fact that he will find some place where he can start some kind of “pastoral ministry” business is not surprising – one review of the American “evangelical” and “pentecostal” scene will tell you that. There’s no personality too strange, no theology too incompatible with Jesus’ teachings, no “ministry” too transparently dishonest that they don’t find some followers.
The question remains that there are people who take pride in their solid theology (and you know who you are) and in their good sense. Why did they fall for Driscoll in the first place, and why did they not leave once his personality and leadership style became obvious? Because his problematic personality was obvious to everyone – even Tim Keller:
Disillusioned? Did they really have any illusions about MD? You can’t be disillusioned if never were under any illusion about someone’s character.
@ Ardiak:
Re: Hillsong. Its preaching ministry may never have received attention by the world if it hadn’t been for Darlene Zschech, a great praise and worship singer. God has blessed the music coming from that part of the world despite the failures of Hillsong’s leadership. Brian Houston is treading on dangerous ground by enabling nonrepentant Driscoll. Instead of saying “Let’s do an interview!”, he should have proclaimed “Repent or else!”
Anonymous wrote:
Will be praying. I understand biblically where your second friend is coming from as well. You want to love everyone without condition, but you darned well don’t want to support them in sin, because frankly, that’s not love no matter how our post modern culture likes to spin it. This is an entirely different issue from whether or not Christians should have anything much to do with using the secular law to attempt to enforce Christian moral codes upon a largely secular population.
Law Prof wrote:
How did Jesus manage this? Who was invited to his gatherings? Who did he accept invitations from? Who did he share meals with? How did he manage all the sin that surrounded him? Did he let a prostitute annoint him with oil? Did he share water with the woman at the well? Did he eat with tax collectors? How did he show love?
@ LT:
Very, very impressive. Thank you.
@ Deb:
I could only listen to the first 30 seconds. I am sick, sick, sick about all of this. How embarrassing.
Sopwith wrote:
That made me smile! I may borrow it some time. đ
ATB!
Bilbo
Bridget wrote:
Bingo, Bridget! Thanks for the reminder.
@ Bridget:
I hope this did not come across flippant. That is not my intention at all. These are serious questions that have often been confusing to me too. Also, didn’t Jesus support me while I was still in sin? My sin did not all disappeared the moment I believed in who Jesus was and what he did for me. I often wonder if Jesus wasn’t considered “post modern” by his contemporary religious institutions.
I’m wondering about Driscoll’s wife. Where is she in all of this? Is she completely supportive of how things shook down? Is she encouraging Mark to pursue other ministries and speaking gigs? Does she truly love him? Or does she feel trapped? Does she not dare leave him because of her commitment to God, for the children’s sake, for more fodder for the naysayers? Did I read up thread that he made $850,000/year? Is that true? I wonder what his current income is…and I’m thinking of how easily money can obviously cloud our judgment. Is it clouding Grace’s?
Are her days long and unbearable? Does she want to become a hermit? Or is she truly his #1 fan and supporter? Is she playing the part or is it sincere?
Just curious.
Bridget wrote:
I’m sure He was. But along with all those questions you posed, didn’t He say “go and sin no more”?
Bill M wrote:
Bill, that line reminded me of a W.A.Criswell quote. Criswell, the long-time pastor of FBC-Dallas, became increasingly concerned about the direction some SBC pastors were going at the time. At one of the national SBC meetings, he commented “Go shovel gravel. Sell popcorn. Work in a dime store. Don’t contaminate the word of God.” Whether you agree with Criswell’s theological persuasion or not, his words fit Driscoll.
@ Anonymous:
I once had a not altogether dissimilar situation regarding a wedding (not mine).
It’s your wedding your are inviting guests to, not a church fellowship meeting. I fully understand the friend who is reluctant to attend, but could not the two with the difference over the gay issue simply agree to keep apart? I don’t mean create a cold atmosphere, but do this for your sake and to keep their consciences clear. Just steer clear of each other.
I do understand the Christian wanting ‘not to associate with’ a gay ‘Christian’ as they see it, in obedience to the apostle Paul, but with a bit of common sense (like not seating them near each other) surely this is possible without any disruption to your wedding? I assume the Christian considering declining your invite doesn’t want ‘to eat with such a one’, and fears disobeying this. (Have you thought about this aspect yourself?)
I think they would have to communicate face to face over this, and come to an understanding that the very real difference in outlook between them must not become a source of anxiety to you on your wedding day.
I’ve known people who would otherwise be at daggars drawn sink their differences for the sake of a wedding, and be perfectly civil to each other, as the wedding is about the couple marrying, not the attendees.
Happy wedding day!
Bridget wrote:
Jesus was the eternal contemporary.
Max wrote:
Actually, that should read “Jesus IS the eternal contemporary.”
nathan priddis wrote:
MD acknowledges Busby as his first pastor in the Reformission book, and that’s all I can find. No mention of Wilson.
Mitch wrote:
Me too. I can see a retired pastor keeping the title as a courtesy, but that’s not where Mr. Driscoll is right now. He’s an ex-pastor who is out on the speaking circuit.
Anonymous wrote:
I can empathize with your situation. No matter what your actions, one of your friends might choose not to participate in your wedding. You are not responsible for your friends’ choices, though. You have invited your friends. Your friends now have a choice to make. And you get to choose how that effects your wedding day. I pray you have a wonderful wedding day and an even better marriage.
roebuck wrote:
He most certainly did. That does not negate all his other actions though. I would need to live in isolation (even away from the church) if I was to have no contact with sin. đ
Mourning Dove wrote:
He didn’t go to a gay wedding to give His tacit approval.
@ Tim:
It is a self proclaimed title with little to no actions to confirm it.
Law Prof wrote:
That is not the scenario Anonymous is describing. Jesus did not exclude sinners from his presence though. He seemed to go places where he would find them.
Tim wrote:
I don’t even know what a “pastor” is, and I can’t seem to find a description with any detail in the New Testament. About the closest I can come from reading the scriptures is that it’s not a title per se, but the state of being a lowly servant.
Remarkable that a word with such humble origins and of sparse description has been latched onto by those eager to fashion for themselves a “king/CEO of the church” whom they can follow (rather than Jesus and the guidance of the Holy Spirit) or those greedy to snatch that title and glory for themselves.
Bridget wrote:
You’re right, Anonymous is not describing that scenario. I think perhaps friend #2 is a bit too sensitive, though I cannot know what motivates friend #2 or his/her personal convictions, hard to judge for certain. I was just discussing the issue of going to a wedding and “standing up” for a couple when you know them to be professing Christians and you believe them to be in unrepentant sin regarding the relationship itself. Why am I throwing that in there when it’s appropos of nothing Anon has said? I guess just a natural tendency toward stirring up controversy and making a stink–occupational hazard.
The recent story of Dr. Farid Fata, a Detroit cancer doc who fraudulently diagnosed over 500 people, putting them through chemotherapy without reason. Here is a doctor who is supposed to heal, is naturally trusted by his position, yet makes healthy people sick, and defrauds them of millions in the process.
Anyone see a parallel?
I haven’t read the details of the story, only a short summary. My guess is the parallels go deeper. Care to guess if this “doctor’s” clinic management style was authoritarian? I wonder how many subordinates became suspicious and quietly left rather than confront the situation and risk their career.
“Dr.” Farid Fata and “Pastor” Mark Driscoll are two peas in a pod. If Fata gets out of prison before he dies maybe he can speak at the next Hillsong conference if he needs money.
Tim wrote:
To refer to someone as a “pastor” implies they are a current minister in charge of a Christian church who has spiritual oversight over a congregation of the Lord. Jayo Leno-type preacher/entertainers are not pastors. Just because they have been given the microphone doesn’t mean they necessarily have anything to say in Jesus’ name.
At best, Driscoll is a “former pastor.” However, Driscoll failed in that mission and has yet to be restored to the respected title of pastor. That function was stripped from him at Mars Hill. Come to think of it: was Driscoll ever officially ordained as a minister or did he self-proclaim role of pastor?
And yes, a “retired” pastor has every right to be referred to in that manner. In most cases, retired pastors fulfilled their ministry by being faithful to the work of the Lord. True shepherds still carry God’s anointing until they pass into Jesus’ arms and hear “Well done!”
Daisy wrote:
Daisy I completely agree. What has happened here is that first Mark sought to saturate the market with his brand. Once he was “everywhere” and on everyone’s lips in that market (the YRR) well see like most products that saturate the market and become too available, he was not as special and people began to notice flaws in the brand. Next came scandal after scandal and the inevitable down fall. So what he is doing is seeking a new market, honestly as little discernment as most of the youngsters that make up YRR, they will never allow him to be the star he was so he has to go to a new audience. The charismatic crowd will never go along with Marks former positions so he is gonna have to reel those in and make adjustments in order to further the penetration in that market. In the end it is about Mark and not Jesus and will most likely end in another scandal. Good thing for him that the charismatics seem more forgiving and he may find a permanent home there.
Law Prof wrote:
Wade B. points out all the time that the word is not a noun but rather a verb or action. A state of being. Which makes me ask again who does MD think he is pastoring. I know that for MD it is an honorific title that he cannot live without, which should be an indicator that he is neither qualified to serve nor called. for the son of man did not come to be served but to serve. the one who would be the greatest should seek to be the servant of all. It seems to me that what we have here is a servant wannabe who is just plain to uppity to be a servant.
@ nathan Priddis:
Read my story on here and you will believe why I don’t believe in Neo-Calvinism. At my blog I am getting up a post tonight about a former Sovereign Grace church, Redeemer Arlington. Its a lot of thoughts I need to get off my chest.
Last night I had dinner with HUG and his burned out preaching writer partner. We met at a Mexican place near the 8/I Street Barracks (USMC) here in DC. It was a pleasure to meet HUG and talk with him. We learned a little more about each other. And discussed communism, fundamentalism, SG, and told him more of the story. He will be away from the keyboard for another week until he travels back to California.
Nice guy, great personality, it was cool to meet him. I’ve met some of the nicest and neatest people through the blogging world.
Max wrote:
You know, Max, I blame Donald Miller for making Driscoll famous at first. :o) Seriously, Miller’s book, “Blue Like Jazz” was all the rage in the 20something set of Christendom. And he talks about his relationship with the cussing pastor back in what was the Emergent movement days (although no one really knows what that movement was).
The 20somethings were dying to find out more about the great cussing pastor (I cannot remember the name of his movement then…Imageo Deo?)
What I watched after that (doing trends work for megas) was the full on explosion of the very bold Driscoll with that age group. here is what I think happened: The leaders such as Mohler, Piper, etc, were hearing about this guy in huge waves from their followers and decided to get in front of the wave. I think it was a question of embrace the new guy or lose followers. Why not make money off the new guy who has their attention?
And on the other side, I think Driscoll saw where the trend was going and started promoting the Reformed brand. It was all about marketing and power. Every last bit of it.
Eagle wrote:
I attended in the early 70’s. It was growing rapidly when Wilson’s non-Calvinist dad Jim was pastor, due in part, IMO, to an early adoption of CCM. I think Calvinism was rare in the EFCA back then. They multiplied into several churches and ministries, into one of which Doug and his brother Evan settled, As Doug fell down the Calvinism hole and Evan turned open-theist, a Piper-Boyd dispute ensued, resulting in Evan being ousted and the church becoming The Kirk. Driscoll attended the mother church now led by Busby around the same time. Meanwhile, also in North Idaho, the Apostle Dave was a failed church-planter al a Ed Stetzer. If Pastor Mark ever asked me to mentor him, I’ve long since forgotten it.
You’re welcome for the Piper-Boyd reference.
@ Mourning Dove:
I doubt Grace knows. She has been in a relationship with what I see to be a sociopathic misogynist narcissist– even before college. I would think if she ever got out or anything happened to him, she would need years and years of therapy to understand anything resembling normal. Those types really mess with your head and their goal in a relationship is controlling chaos to keep one off balance.
Did you read any of the stories of people leaving who were good friends with them? The shunning, etc? From reading some of them, I got the impression Grace was doing her “shunning duty” but not with her whole heart. My guess: She obeys. Period.
Mitch wrote:
Before Mars Hill imploded, Driscoll was already trying to rebrand himself. He lost the tight mickey mouse t-shirt and necklace and was going tweed jacket and positioning himself as a wise uncle pastor. He knew the former brand was wearing thin as he aged. The wise uncle would be a pastor to the masses. (People tend to not realize that rapid growth of a mega church with the pastor as the “brand” means they often view the church as a financial means not an end. The bigger audience is “out there” and feeds their increasing supply needs. the church is to pay for it)
nathan Priddis wrote:
They may have gone neo-cal like much of the EFCA in later years, but not like Doug. Bottom line on Driscoll is he might have met Doug but became semi-reformed years later for other reasons, as Lydia mentions. Possibly– no– I’d say likely– Driscoll wasn’t a regular church attender anywhere in college. Maybe did his own thing leading men. Maybe not even Christian, if he converted, as he’s said, IN ORDER TO have a church-planting career, just like Paul!
Law Prof wrote:
yep. And this idea we pay a pastor to pastor us indefinitely is beyond comprehension, really. Are we not to mature? Isn’t that the goal? We all “pastor” to some extent with children, friends, etc.
The only thing I can find that would come close to any financial support is when they went traveled to preach in other places or when Paul took up a collection for the Jerusalem believers who were in dire straits. In the former, the women paid for Jesus and others to be able to do that. the idea that a paid position in the Body of Christ is from horrible proof texting out of context and playing games with the Greek.
BTW I’ve read things from folks who know Wilson who say he’s not nearly so nasty in person as in the things he writes. Driscoll’s less nasty in his writings– oh wait– he didn’t write them! And his team made some mistakes!
@ Bill M:
That is horrid! But, you are right, the parallels are there. Frauds.
Dave A A wrote:
Was Michael Metzler one of them you read who said that? Many frauds are not mean in person but instead are very deceptive.
Lydia wrote:
This would certainly distort the scale of (wise) vs (careless, reckless, thoughtless, insensitive, unsound, idiotic).
Lydia wrote:
Lydia I would love to hear more about your past experiences. Your comments indicate you have a very up close and personal insider perspective of that world and I think it would be fascinating to hear more of what you experienced.
And I agree, in the mega world the church is nothing more than a delivery vehicle for the brand which is the Mega star pastor. The church is nothing more than a package or delivery service and becomes one of many to promote the product. Thats really what all the conferences and books are as well although they seem to generate revenue and cross promote and sell each other. You know attend the conference to buy the book, or hear the ideas of the book you have already bought. In reality one thing I have noticed with most of it is once you have gotten the general lay of their talking points, they seldom have anything new to add. it is kinds like a living chatty cathy doll, pull the string and hear one of the 10 or 20 sayings at random. crazy.
Lydia wrote:
And don’t forget CJ. IIRC, Ceej insisted they include Driscoll in The Gospelly Coalition instead of MacArthur, who was too fundy. Then after MD went away, they started appearing with MacArthur more.
Mitch wrote:
It really is more about piecing it together after the events. Often, we don’t really know what we are seeing when it comes to trends or even knowing if it is a trend at the time. It took me a long time to catch onto a Reformed resurgence happening. And it is more seamless than people might think. The whole church growth movement was a precursor to the Reformed resurgence, IMO. It is all one big plastic fish world that I am thrilled to be out of.
But here is my deal: If we don’t stop and analyze what happened, we are doomed to repeat it. And this goes for companies, organizations, churches and people. Americans are horrible when it comes to learning from history…even recent history. And even worse, these are often not just one off “people” problems but systemic problems…the system we believed in and helped to build that turns around and bites us!
And if we analyze what happened it makes it easier to spot the indicators early on and not get sucked in again. Some big ones for me is that Theology cannot be systematized and that the Body of Christ is not an institution. That forces me to look outside the boxes.
@ Dave A A:
Dave, I cannot forget about CJ. He moved to my city to “plant a church near the seminary” and then planted it in my kids school. Thankfully the school has zero tolerance for those who protect predators and asked them to leave so now they are at the Marriot not very far from me. :o) Should I thank Mohler now?
Lydia wrote:
I agree completely, not only do we not learn from history we seem to be oblivious to it in general. and yes we are doomed to repeat it.
The whole systematic theology issue really troubles me, the idea that I can completely figure out the character of God and who he works and who he is with nothing more than 66 books makes no sense to me. More often than not I find some of the most conservative “theologians” doing nothing more than what they accuse the “liberals” of doing, creating a God in their own image. I am convinced that much of the rise of reformed theology has to do with sociological issues rather than theological (and not not forget political power of the leaders in the group).
As an example of how little we learn from recent history or past all we have to do is look at the new deal with Iran. If history teaches us anything it should be that nuclear deals like this always fail and end badly (Iraq and it complete inability to follow the peace accords it agreed to). this agreement is unenforceable and the Iran has everything to gain in the agreement and the world has everything to lose. Crazy.
Now that your out of the mega world. do you find church services difficult? Lately I have noticed how close to being a done I really am. which is sad since I am almost complete in my Mdiv. crazy I know and not sure my wife is very happy. I honestly could do with out most of the church services I have been in over the last 3 years. And yet I love Christ and long to see the people of the world come to know him. doesnt make sense.
@ Mitch:
Mitch, I want to add that the church growth movement is not just about huge churches. Go back to cable and the rise of evangelists on tv–even their own channels. The ability to mass market Jesus for profit changed everything and Christianity became a huge market niche that was very profitable from the Christian music sphere to church growth seeker megas to the resurgence.
I personally think it is all beginning to wane to some degree. But that is just my opinion. I do not see all of it ‘dying” off at all. It is really more about the flow of money. I see it more as a 40 year trend from church growth movement and Christian niche marketing (think of the explosion of Christian music) to today’s resurgence. They are all alike in that respect: Jesus as a vehicle for fame and profit.
The very medium that exploded the resurgence in the early days is now taking that same resurgence on: The internet. People are sharing their experiences which is not a good thing for the celebs or their systems.
@ Lydia:
How lucky can you get? đ
Lydia wrote:
Agreed. The emergent church who’s-who had a lot to do with bringing Driscoll to the scene. Emergent leaders like Donald Miller, Brian McLaren, and Rob Bell all have a share in creating Driscoll. Long before Driscoll went resurgent with New Calvinism, he was part of the emergent movement with their crazy theology – makes me blue like jazz just thinking about those guys again. Driscoll is now submergent, but beginning to resurface thanks to the undiscerning in Assembly of God ranks. The big chunks always float to the top sooner or later.
Bridget wrote:
And now for something really flippant from that renegade Potter. Me thinks we try to extrapolate way too much out of Holy Writ from the way back then and into the here and now. Personally I couldn’t care less what a person’s sexual orientation is, if they’re my friends, I’ll celebrate with them, knowing full well that I would want to be treated in the same fashion.
Mitch wrote:
Oh yes. I find myself on the look out for “indicators” all the time. But I also see church in a totally different way. I think it can actually be enabling wrong doing to attend some churches. But that only pertains to me and my freedom of conscience. it is not for me to say for others.
And I don’t see the necessity of listening to one guy preach week after week. I find it stifling. And I realize how arrogant that sounds but how arrogant is it to believe listening to one guy preaching year after year is good for us? I think we would be better served with serious group discussions but these days everyone seems to believe we adults need a leader to be in charge of us and tell us what to believe or think. At the very least it would send the message that we take it seriously, personally.
The thing that really bothers me the most and I know is hard not to get caught up in is the idea of that the churches image must be protected at all costs. This is true of most churches and a natural progression of any institution. But it is a deadly belief. If I hear the pedantic mantra that there are “no perfect churches” one more time to excuse wrong doing/evil, I might have to run screaming in the woods! What happened to striving for maturity? What happened to being the light of the world?
Dave A A wrote:
EFCA. Is that pretty much a universal adoption of Neo-Cal by the EFCA?
@ Deb:
Do you think Carolyn Mahaney does her own Krogering? :o)
@ Eagle:
Read your bio. You have been around the block.
Lydia wrote:
The internet has certainly leveled the playing field quite a bit and I think that is an example of the free flow of information. When people can get truth it always leads to freedom that is why despots so often wanted to burn books and control the media. When you have that control you can control access to information and therefore truth. I know the mega stars hate that their favorite medium is being used against them and it amazes me that with all of the information out there people still willfully remain ignorant. I was reminded of the willful ignorance of people today as I read that Whoopi Goldberg has now figured out that Bill C. is more than likely guilty of the actions he has been accused of and that waiting for an official determination from a court is no way to determine guilt. I sorta thought someone who so often shoots off at the mouth would know that courts sometimes get it wrong and declare the innocent guilty and the guilty innocent and sometimes there is not enough proof for a court to decide. It is as silly to say he didn’t do it cause he has not been found guilty in a court of law as it is to claim C. J. is innocent because they didn’t have a trial in his case, forget that it was thrown out not because he was innocent but because sadly time had expired.
Lydia wrote:
Yep, much of discernment is really just good observation – keeping your eyes and ears open. Southern Baptists don’t do well in that regard with their heads in the sand. Thus, New Calvinism came in the back door and they didn’t even realize it! I actually had a young reformed pastor at an SBC church plant near me look me in the eye and say “We’re coming in the back door!” In reply, I quoted him John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.” He looked at me, smiled and walked off. The arrogance of this bunch!
Mitch wrote:
A friend of mine was in a similar position but he went ahead and completed the MDiv and works as a bi-vocational pastor at a small church who cannot afford a full time pastor while also a physical therapist. You are in a tough position. A position that is going to cause your conscience full time work. My prayers go out to you and your wife for wisdom and clarity.
Lydia wrote:
I thought I was the only one! I can not figure out how it is worship to stand and listen to someone sing in a way that no one can follow with music that is so loud I can not hear myself think then sit still and listen to someone else ramble on about how their latest activity loosely illustrates whatever point they are trying to make from scripture. and any time you bother to say anything you are told “it isnt about you” “your divisive” “you must be in sin cause you dont find the worship service enthralling” ect ect. I honestly would rather take my bible out in my kayak and read and fish than sit through another recap of some college age kids weekly activity and how it demonstrates the what ever of God.
Rant over.
nathan priddis wrote:
Hmm not sure. Eagle will know more about that one.
Lydia wrote:
If you do, be sure to compliment him on his really big stack of books, prioving that he’s really smart!
Lydia wrote:
I don’t think he was, though I just reAd a couple good articles by him.
@ Muff Potter:
Well, that’s not flippant, just honest.
Dave A A wrote:
If you go back in ancient history, MacArthur made a lot of YRRs mad when he made an appeal for his version of leaky dispensationalism, IIRC, at a Shepherd’s Conference. Or maybe another one. Anyway, Driscoll was very popular at that time, so it only made sense to glom onto him and toss MacArthur aside.
That is some very interesting info about Doug Wilson and Jim Wilson and Driscoll. I think another angle is the Grudem and Ware connection via Western Seminary where Ware taught for awhile. Grudem and Ware are longtime colleagues since back at TEDS, the EFCA seminary. I speculate wildly that Driscoll and Ware/Grudem got set up just like Dever and Mahaney got set up–for reasons which all parties believed were mutually beneficial at the time. Obviously, that didn’t work out so well.
Dave A A wrote:
I could be really smart if I had a virtually limitless supply of readers and writers who worked for me in exchange for my blessing on their Ph.D. program.
Muff Potter wrote:
I’ll come across not as flippant, but as strident, harsh, a-holish–not that I care. I wouldn’t want anyone to celebrate my sin, I’d want them to get in my face about it. I say this as one who has very much been involved in sexual sin of the hetero variety in my past (not perfect now either, nor likely ever will be) and had people–primarily, but not exclusively, my wife–get in my face about it Big Time and have come to be extremely thankful that I did not have a “welcoming and affirming” acceptance of my hetero issues. Thank God!
A person who really loves the way Jesus means “love” follows not only Matthew 7:12, but dives a little deeper into the narrative and also follows Matthew 18:15. Jesus said both, they go hand-in-hand.
Mitch wrote:
Totally in the same camp. What does the Bible say about this issue?
“But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and YOU HAVE NO NEED THAT ANYONE SHOULD TEACH YOU.”
I John 2:27 (from–drum roll–the ESV version!) Take this and shove it in the face of your nearest ESV-idolater/Neocal Pastor-idolater fan boy.
@ Law Prof:
Oh yeah, I have shared that verse with them, too, and they seem to be surprised it is in there speaking to the average Joe and Mary. :o) But if that applies in 1st Century Ephesus written by John then how much more would it apply to today considering our resources and increased knowledge?
__
“Where’s There’s  Smoke, There’s Fire?”
hmmm…
Bridget,
hey,
  Your prayers and your well wishes mean a lot to me, thank you for your kind words over the years here at Wartburg, they have been a most wonder contribution to my well being and my walk with our Lord, your faith and your faithful presence @TWW is a wonderful addition.
I am better. đ (thankz)
ATB
Sopy
__
P.S. upon close examination of the former MarsHill church, and former senior pastor Mark Driscoll, and his leadership captains, you can the plainly see the blind ambition, and the wonton & carelessness self-destruction of this 501(c)3 Christian ministry. Mark Driscoll, apparently damaged the very ‘confidence’ that was the foundation of his 501(c)3 Christian ministry, by his own actions. Because of the abuse that was present in his person, many prayed to our Lord for deliverance and justice! As a result, I believe God heard His people’s  prayers, exposing the darkness, and setting the captive(s) free!
Now MarsHill is no more.Â
I will rejoice in God my savior!
Q. Mark Driscoll will ‘live’ to fight another day?
hmmm…
Way too many Kind Folks now have his number, NOW –spots be whitewashed, ya think?
—
@ Dave A A:
“And donât forget CJ. IIRC, Ceej insisted they include Driscoll in The Gospelly Coalition instead of MacArthur, who was too fundy. Then after MD went away, they started appearing with MacArthur more.”
++++++++++++++++++++++
good grief, they’re like a clique of junior high girls, in all their social ladder-climbing, image-paranoid glory.
Lydia wrote:
Of course. I have to wonder very much about the sincerity or sanity of someone who would have that verse cited to them, express surprise, then just go on blithely running after the latest celebrity pastor and talking about the “absolute necessity of expository preaching” each and every week.
Lydia wrote:
An SBC New Calvinist preacher in my area would say that the verse you cite (1 John 2:27) doesn’t apply to today’s average Joe an Mary; he would say that it was intended only for the church at Ephesus! And that the 2 Chronicles 7:14 exhortation for “my people” to humble themselves, pray, seek God’s face and turn from their wicked ways is Old Testament and, therefore, not applicable to New Testament Christians today. He would also say (actually, I heard him say it) that when Paul said “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” (Philippians 4:13) that we shouldn’t claim that verse for ourselves – he was talking about himself! I tell you these young guys are out and about to change everything! When will this madness end?!
I’ve been so beaten and battered and generally horrified by all this neocal stuff, that just now when I came to the end of the comment section, just below where it says ‘Leave a Reply’, I parsed that line as ‘Your email address will not be punished’.
Time for some restorative Gospel reading, I reckon…
There is no mistaking that Driscoll blew it big time and is paying a heavy price. His words seem to reflect a man who is learning some valuable lessons. It is not up to me to judge his heart, only God can do that. He will never serve the same audience again, but could have even a deeper, wider influence with the message of grace after God finishes his brokenness in him.
roebuck wrote:
Thanks for a good laugh! Lots of us here are on the mend.
Deb wrote:
My post was meant for a laugh – sure seemed funny to me – but that’s honestly what I saw there for a second or two!
The Gospels, people, that’s the remedy…
Max wrote:
So, they take a warped, ignorant-of-the-Greek, ignore-everything-else-Jesus-and-Paul-said-about-leadership misinterpretation of Hebrews 13:17 to give themselves absolute control of a group of believers and hammer that home as absolutely applicable to all times, especially them in their church over their church body and then take everything to the contrary and explain it away by saying it was just for that particular time and that particular church 1,960 years ago.
And then, the kicker: they have the chutzpah and downright stupidity to rail against the “liberals” who don’t care what the Bible says with the rainbows on their church signs down the street! I don’t like the beliefs of those liberals, either, they make a mockery of God, but at least the Unitarian Universalists are straightforward about it, your neocalvinist SBC pastor down the street adds flat dishonesty to his extreme liberalism.
Law Prof wrote:
Interesting that you say that, Law Prof. I was just thinking about that earlier this week. Purporting to hold an orthodox conservative belief system, New Calvinists abuse Christian liberties by talking and walking in a way that is approaching antinomianism. Their culturally-relevant message is designed to attract a crowd of 20s-40s, but ignores the commands to pursue holiness. This is definitely not the Calvinism of the Puritans.
John wrote:
What is up with “judging hearts”? I have never understood this. It seems to be some sort of platitude meant to imply we should not judge behaviors/actions/words. See, all we have are words and behaviors to judge. If Driscoll is a totally different person “in his heart” than what he projects on the outside, does that make some sort of difference? I wish someone would explain how this works for me.
Sorry for the trigger but have heard many pastors teach this (as if discussing any evil is “judging a heart”) and I find it reprehensible and ignorant.
We can only judge what we see, hear and read. And that is often quite a enough when there is a long term pattern.
Max wrote:
I know a pastor who claims the same for the message in Hebrews 10.
Lydia wrote:
Yes please.
WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:
I served in an Acts 29 church for 3 years, which was planted by a young pastor who had been personally mentored by Mark Driscoll.
This young pastor made it very explicit that the main purpose of this A29 plant (in a major US city) was to reach young, wealthy, influential people because “they will be the influencers of tomorrow.” The church planted in an extremely wealthy neighborhood – so wealthy that no one on the planting team could live there!
I wonder how much of this was influenced by Driscoll’s goals, beliefs, philosophies, etc.
(For the record, the plan failed miserably, and only poor college kids attended. As far as I know, the church has never been able to successfully reach a sustainable population of young wealthy professionals).
WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:
What do you mean? The wording here confused me a little bit.
@ Law Prof:
I’m sure there’s a great deal we could agree upon, and then again there are places where the twain’ will never meet. No harm no foul, it’s just real life in the human parade.
@ Mr.H:
posts over at the blog, one of which goes back to the Mother Jones coverage of the late 1990s, and another post in the series proposes that Mark’s white collar donor cultivation goals were not going to ultimately have been helped by the blue
collar Jesus he was fabricating from the pulpit. The post itself would ideally flesh out that proposal.
What years did you spend at an A29, out of curiosity?
@ Lydia:
I am confused at to how this goes. How are we to know when to reject something as not applicable for us (1Tim) because after all it was at Ephesus and therefore specific for only that situation, on the one hand, but accept something (1 John) as applicable to us even though it was addressed to Ephesus?
Ephesus is beginning to take on the air of Brigadoon!
Anonymous wrote:
Various people have commented with different opinions. So here is yet a different opinion, FWIW. It will sound harsh, but so be it.
There are social rules to cover wedding stuff. Social rules exist, IMO, precisely because where there are people there are difficulties. The family of the bride bear the official responsibility for determining who gets invited and who does not. “Mr. and Mrs (or Joe and Susie) Parent request the honor of your presence⌔ This of course is after getting ‘the list’ from the family of the groom and getting the recommendations from the bride. This relieves the bride of the ultimate responsibility of making tough decisions (and allows for the bride’s family’s to invite long time associates to be since that is most likely where the money is and who owes whom for past gifts and business deals and influences. ) This makes weddings partly a social event and partly about business and contacts. This is an extremely important issue-no, I mean really, I am not being sarcastic.
So, while you may advise your parents, it is not your ultimate responsibility who gets invited and who does not. The parents may, if they choose, fail to invite some bride’s former boyfriend who is now out on parole and may or may not be clean and sober enough to come, should that be the case.
That said, once the invitations have been dropped into the mail box, it is entirely up to those who have been invited to either accept or regret for whatever reason. The people who did the inviting must, must, must accept the responses they get-no questions asked. That would be even if somebody regrets that they cannot attend because they have just discovered that they have five toes on each foot. No explanations need be give and no discussions should take place. The parents and the bride, and everybody on the other side of the couple must smile, be gracious, and totally pretend that everything is exactly as they hoped it would be. And everybody must be ‘so thrilled’ with it all. Those who ‘regret’ may be a part of some prior bridal shower or may have some gift delivered to the house prior to the event even if they themselves do not attend. To fail to do that would be incorrect, but yet again nothing should ever be said about it.
So, basically, it is entirely up to the inviters to invite whomever they choose, and entirely up to those invited to make their own decisions with complete freedom to do so, and entirely up to those throwing the shindig to make it happen that way. This takes the pressure off you and off friend #1 and friend #2.
Lydia wrote:
You will know them by their fruit. “The mouth speaks what the heart is full of” (John 6:45). Driscoll has given the church enough evidence from his own lips to discern his heart. His potty-mouth words condemned him when he was “pastor”. The fruit of his heart influenced an army of young, reformed and restless to act just like him! They are now wreaking havoc in churches across America. As an ex-pastor he remains unrepentant of the damage he has caused, but has launched a comeback without a godly sorrow for former sin and rebellion – not a good sign. If Christians don’t preserve the integrity of the faith in the church, who will? The 21st century church seems to have forgotten that righteous judgement on the behaviors of false teaching and immorality belongs to those who are the Church. This is affirmed in Scripture.
elastigirl wrote:
Bingo, you utterly nailed it I believe.I shall henceforth picture them all wearing bobbi socks.
@ Mitch:
Mitch
âI too find it interesting he still uses *the title* pastor.â
I too find it interesting, that in the Bible…
NO one, NOT one believer, NOT one Disciple of Jesus…
Ever, âuses **the title** pastor.â Or, shepherd. Oy Vey!!!
————
Hmmm? What did His Disciples know 2000 years ago???
That those who mis-appropriate the âtitleâ pastor – Miss today???
————
In the Bible, the only âONEâ I can find with the âtitleâ Shepherd – IS
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
@ Law Prof:
Very well said when you write…
âI donât even know what a âpastorâ is, and I canât seem to find a description with any detail in the New Testament. About the closest I can come from reading the scriptures is that itâs not a title per se, but the state of being a lowly servant.â
Yup, the word pastor is NEVERâa âtitleâ in the Bible. It was only after I was ordained that I read the scriptures to see what a pastor, in the Bible, is to do and be. It was hard to believe, and admit, but, almost nothing of what a pastor is âpaidâ to do in âTodayâs Religious Systemâ is in the Bible. It took 4-5 years but eventually I ripped up those papers.
Job 32:21-22 KJV
Let me not, I pray you, accept any manâs person,
neither let me give âFlattering Titlesâ unto man.
For I know not to give âFlatteringTitles;â
in so doing my maker would soon take me away.
In other news….
TLC has cancelled the Duggars show.
After weeks in limbo stemming from revelations of sexual misconduct by one of its stars, the TLC reality show “19 Kids and Counting” is officially dead.
http://centurylink.net/news/read/category/entertainment/article/the_associated_press-ap_exclusive_tlc_cancels_19_kids_and_counting-ap
Here are a few things pastors do today that are NOT found in the Bible…
NO – Paid, Professional, Pastors, in Pulpits, Preaching, to People, in Pews.
…… When folks come together, every one has a psalm, has a doctrine,
…… has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. 1 Cor 14:26.
…… Every one can, and is expected to, participate. NOT listen to just one.
…… The pastor in a pulpit model creates spectators in the pews.
NO – Pastors, as CEOâs of
……. 501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax deductible, Religious Corporations.
……. That the IRS calls church.
……. Should WE, His Disciples, call an IRS Corporation, The Ekklesia of God?
NO âDisciple of Christâ âcallingâ another brethren – Pastor, or âMyâ Pastor.
NO âdisciple of Christâ âcallingâ them self – Pastor or Leader.
……âALLâ of His Disciples called themselves âServants.â Hmmm?
NO âDisciple of Christâ having the âTitleâ or âPositionâ – âPastor/Leader.â
…… Today that âTitleâ is written on – Diploma’s on walls, business cards,
…… office doors, Sunday morning bulletin, street signs, and more.
…… And everyone knows who the âPastor/Leaderâ is. Why?
…… Jesus, as man, humbled Himself, made Himself of NO reputation,
…… took on the form of a âServant.â Phil 2:7-8.
…… In my experience… âTitlesâ become âIdolsâ Ezek 14:1-11.
NO âDisciple of Christâ âExercising Authorityâ over another believer.
…… I was taught; You submit to me, NOW, your âGod Ordained Authority,â
…… And, one day, when youâre a Pastor, people will submit to you. đ
……. Power. Profit, and Prestige, is highly esteemed among men.
NO – Pastors, separating themselves from the body, as âClergy-class.â
NO – Pastors, Hired, or Fired, by a congregation.
NO – Pastors counseling anyone.
NO – Pastors marrying anyone.
NO – Pastors burying anyone.
NO – Pastors visiting the sick.
NO – Pastors wearing special clothes.
NO – Pastors going from one congregation to another. Whatâs up with that?
…… Elders, plural, matured within the group, when, if, appointed, they were known.
…… Pastor, Paid, Professional, is hired, and fired, NOT known.
And the list goes on…
You could probably think of a few yourself.
IMO – Not of much of what we see *Today,* with âPastors/leaders,â
has any reference in scripture.
Jer 50:6
âMy peopleâ hath been âlost sheep:â
**THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Do not be deceived Kind Folks : Bad 501(c)3 church ‘pastors’ corrupt(s) more than just good gray matter…
 __
Is Mark Driscoll possibally troubled by bad spirits like King Saul?
—
Muff Potter wrote:
Indeed. In my former profession, I’d call down the fires of heaven upon my opponent in the courtroom or conference room during depositions–who’d in turn do likewise to me. And then, when it was all over, a hearty shake of the hands, back pat, etc. It’s true that lawyers often do have a camaraderie that supersedes any courtroom fireworks, the stereotype of the lawyers foaming-at-the-mouth in front of clients, then afterwards slipping out the back to have a beer and compare battle scars is very much a reality.
So glad to see you’re a kindred spirit in saying “no harm, no foul”. The Lord will sort it all out in the end, and there’ll be many times I’ll find I stumbled into the truth–and many times I’ll find I’d clung desperately to a lie.
Sopy,
Reading belatedly, and much interrupted.
Praying for you.
Law Prof wrote:
You would have to be the right age growing up watching Bugs Bunny, I recall the old Loony Tunes cartoon with the sheep dog and the coyote battling away over the sheep, the noon whistle blows and they sat down and had lunch together.
Frankly any church that bars women from ministry and leadership roles has deep issues. That one policy, in my experience, is always one of the best litmus tests for a church or its leadership.
Lydia wrote:
In Organic Church, Neil Cole relates a conversation he had with the pastor of a church somewhere that was in the middle of selecting and appointing elders. He’d drafted in some professors of theology from his local seminary (where he did some lecturing as well) to vet the candidates. Coles asked him why the congregation themselves couldn’t do this. The Pastor’s reply was, in essence: Well, the congregation aren’t qualified to judge good teaching, so they won’t know whether the men’s doctrine is properly sound.
Coles was slightly puzzled at this and asked the pastor how long he’d been in ministry there. The latter declared: I’ve been twenty-three years in the Mininstry! To which Coles replied: So, you’ve been preaching to these people for 23 years – in other words, the church as a whole has heard over a thousand of your sermons – and they’re still not capable of telling good teaching from bad? How many years would they have to sit under your ministry before they could?
@ Lydia:
Here is an interesting piece that popped up on Patheos today:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousbench/2015/07/the-problem-of-personality-driven-congregationalism-in-american-evangelicalism/
@ Law Prof:
Muff Potter wrote: “Iâm sure thereâs a great deal we could agree upon, and then again there are places where the twainâ will never meet. No harm no foul, itâs just real life in the human parade.”
Law Prof said: “…Iâd call down the fires of heaven upon my opponent …whoâd in turn do likewise to me. And then, when it was all over, a hearty shake of the hands, back pat, etc. … So glad to see youâre a kindred spirit in saying âno harm, no foulâ. The Lord will sort it all out in the end”
++++++++++++++++++++++
I really like this/these. In religionland, people tend to take themselves and ideals so seriously, ridiculously beyond proportion. Relationships become tense if not compromised over things which in the sober cold light of day are utterly trivial nothings.
I personally have difficulty with the “the lord will sort it out in the end” thing when it comes to issues which actually harm people (especially when they enrich/benefit some despite the expense to others). Take the gender discrimination aka male headship patriarchal crap nonsense. I could easily make a case for how it truly hurts everyone. In addition, it is very hard not to be deeply offended by is proponents.
on issues like these, I do call harm and foul. hopefully without weapons drawn.
roebuck wrote:
Thanks Roebuck – good article! A timely piece regarding “the heavy-handed, broach no opposition leadership style of the former pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, WA.” Unfortunately, before he was sent packing, Pastor Mark spawned an army of Driscollites who adopted his leadership style. There are two SBC church plants in my community that mimic his message and methods. The article accurately describes leadership style at these New Calvinist churches:
“… procedural and governance practices that protect the pastor from criticism and critique are implemented ⌠carefully selected church council or board of elders ⌠echo chamber around the pastor, isolate him from the people, and eventually set him up as an untouchable …”
And the article offers a clear warning:
“… evangelical laypeople need to insist on the transparency of governing processes and accountability for leaders in their congregations.”
@ Max:
Yes, not a bad article for CT, eh? I think they’ve been lurking on TWW for a while… đ
roebuck wrote:
If I may summarize, the article attributes the “charismatic, personality-driven leadership” to the democratization of American churches, we get what we choose.
I could dispute the premise on numerous fronts. I can also argue that if the decision of leadership is left to elites they will be just as susceptible. The pastor of my former church was picked by the outgoing pastor, few others knew him, yet he was one of those folks with that charisma thing but little compassion.
Rather than blame democracy I’d rather remove the last vestiges of elites. Stop need for looking to one man and stop giving him so much power.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
(I am relying on memory here) I recall a statement from Dave Bruskas reported on Patheos that MH had biblical illiteracy. My understanding was it was a reflective statement, looking back on the meltdown.
If you read transcripts of a MD sermon, verses are used to give credibility to unrelated verbage.Lonnnnggg verbage.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
It has been my experience churches don’t teach. Sermons are carefully parsed to indoctrinate.
roebuck wrote:
Roe, I’d say it was right-on regarding congregational governance vs. plurality of elders.
The line in the article “… echo chamber around the pastor, isolate him from the people, and eventually set him up as an untouchable ⌔ also applies to certain seminary leaders and other elites in SBC ranks. Dr. Mohler comes to mind; he runs with only those who idolize and affirm him … “Ohhhh Dr. Mohler, you are so smart”, etc. He is untouchable. Come to think of it, that leadership style would also define John Calvin.
@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:
Thanks for the articles! Well done.
nathan Priddis wrote:
New Calvinists are masters at this … more eisegesis than exegesis.
@ Muff Potter:
Thank you! I agree and appreciate those who don’t quite so easily lambaste our LGBT brothers and sisters who are learning on this journey with us.
Bill M wrote:
I remember that, you bet. I’m old enough to remember Bugs and a heck of a lot of other stuff. One of my earliest memories is watching the funeral of Eisenhower. That freaks students out when I tell them.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I think I might be able to tell them: bad preaching is what you’re hearing right now folks, right up there at the pulpit.
Bill M wrote:
So in other words, he was NOTHING LIKE JESUS:
“He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.” Isaiah 53:2 (commonly understood as a prophecy of Jesus)
Law Prof wrote:
Are you implying Jesus was not tall, good hair, born into the family business, and at home standing up front?Law Prof wrote:
When Kennedy was shot the teacher cam into the room and only told me. I’m still curious about that one.
Bill M wrote:
She must’ve considered you the adult in the room, even at that young age. I was in utero in November of ’63.
Law Prof wrote:
When Kennedy was shot, the teacher told the whole class, and we put our heads down on our desks and cried. What a strange day…
I remember watching the funeral cortege on TV a bit later. A black horse was drawing the caisson bearing the casket, and it was very skittish and spirited. My mother was strangely comforted by that – thought it was a good sign.
What changes! My father died in ’62, then the Kennedy assasination, and then… the Beatles arrived. It was suddenly ‘The Sixties’.
roebuck wrote:
Sad but true! I usually leave a comment with a made up name and a functional email that I haven’t looked at in years.
roebuck wrote:
Sad but true! I usually leave a comment with a made up name and a functional email that I haven’t looked at in years.
Okay getting back to the beginning of the thread for a minute. Am I the only one that got a cartoon bubble of Admiral Ackbar saying “It’s a trap!” from the Return of the Jedi when Driscoll claimed that God told him âA trap has been set!â prompting him to resign from the ministry instead of submitting to the restoration process.
That was a long sentence.
Flat Top, you’ve mentioned something that is part of the series discussing the interview. Driscoll said he heard “a trap has been set” and that for whatever reason they wouldn’t be able to return to ministry at Mars Hill.
But Driscoll never said what the nature of the trap was.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2015/07/so-driscoll-said-it-was-revealed-to-him.html
Problem is that he can’t have been referring to the investigation of the board(s) at Mars Hill because he described himself as initiating the initial investigation. If that was a trap it’s one he claimed he set up of his own accord, so trike that. If the trap was a BoE rather than a BoO decision someone would have to clarify that but in the account Driscoll gave Houston the trap can’t have been the internal investigation.
Which gets to another theory, that a trap could have been from some other context. But Justin Dean taunted Rob Smith as someone who had threatened a lawsuit for more than a year but never produced one. Justin Dean made that taunt in March 2015 which means Dean had to have 1) known who Rob Smith was since at least as far back as February 2014 and 2) also managed to know Smith was associated with the possibility of a suit. WORLD magazine reported the potential of a RICO suit back in July 2014.
So what that indicates is that Driscoll didn’t need a divine message about a RICO suit if he’d just been reading the news coverage. Dean’s taunt that no suit had materialized also shows that Mark was fudging at best when he said “we’re not entirely sure who they are”. MH upper echelon people can’t make jabs about failing to have a suit and having liens if they don’t know who the people are. I couldn’t have gotten a certified letter from a campus pastor in December 2013 and an invitation from Sutton to attend a Vision Breakfast if they didn’t know who I was.
And so far there’s no rational explanation as to what “a trap has been set” could refer to. Yet it became the basis for Mark Driscoll resigning and going back on what he assured his own children was going to be the path moving forward. So at that level it’s no wonder if the Driscolls are concerned their children might resent them.
Whatever “a trap” is supposed to be it’s never been explained and may not have an explanation.
Mourning Dove wrote:
That is true. Mark brought Sutton Turner on as the COO in 2011, I believe. Prior to that Mark was making $267,750 per year which included his $200,000 parsonage allowance. Mark is exempt from paying FICA and the $200,000 is completely tax free as well. Shortly after Sutton accepted this position he authorized the use of $210,000 in tithes to buy MD’s NYT best selling author designation. Mark spun that into more book sales and high profile national and international television appearances. It also launched MD’s big Real Marriage speaking tour. Mark and Grace got to personally keep all the cash from this ( as opposed to MHC receiving the proceeds) and MHC continued to pay MD while he toured the country promoting Real Marriage book and conducting the Real Marriage Seminar.
.
Mark then had Sutton up the ante considerably by hiring the expensive firm Capin Crouse to conduct a personalized salary study to justify the following salary increases for Driscoll at Sutton Turner’s behest. The salary package includes the $200,000 tax free parsonage allowance):
.
MD’s annual pay prior to Sutton $267,750
MD’s annual pay 2011 $564,615 (raise of $296,865 111% increase)
MD’s annual pay 2012 $703,077 (raise of $138,462 25% increase)
MD’s annual pay 2013 $850,000 (raise of $146,923 21% increase)
.
In just three years time Driscoll’s annual pay increased by $582,250 (218% incr). To this amount you should add in another $60,000 min which is the very real cash in pocket tax savings on the $200,000 pars allow that the Driscolls received annually, meaning the Driscoll’s were receiving closer to $910,000 per year. To all this you must add in Mark’s speaking fees which were between $10,000 – $20,000 per gig, plus ongoing book royalties.
.
Driscoll greedily raked in that $582,250 increase while simultaneously laying off dozens of staff due to necessary cost cutting measures. As for current earnings, Driscoll allegedly was to receive one year’s pay as severance despite his voluntary resignation.
(The above data came directly from MH internal source documents posted by Warren Throckmorton and Wenatchee the Hatchet).
@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:
I think you hit the “mark” with your Ahab reference, if MD really did hear about a trap. But maybe he thinks Satan set it?
I’m also curious about the counsel Mark received. From the interview: “So we prayed and slept on it and decided we would make sure we got this right. Talked to pastors, those that we trust and sent in our resignation then…”
So who were the trustworthy pastors who assured them that resigning was right?
Morris and Jakes? Turner and Bruskas? Chandler and Tripp?
Law Prof wrote:
Hmmm. I remember as a child hearing my paternal grandmother tell about when the news came out that somebody had shot Mr. Lincoln. She would have been 11 at the time.
Mitch wrote:
Now that Mark Driscoll has decided to become Charismatic, through their handy dandy name it and claim it, blab it and grab it, Word Faith policy, Driscoll can simply speak this into existence just like God. A simple daily affirmation will do. He’s the Rachel Dolezal of the evangelical world. “I Identify as Pastor”. Voila I am a pastor.
Deb wrote:
You might be opening pandora’s box there. Some light reading to start you off:
http://hillsongchurchwatch.com/
Dave A A wrote:
Comrade Ogilvy?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
You guessed correctly! Or have you been tapping in to his telescreens?
In other news, Throckmorton reports that the Driscolls already enjoyed a farewell party in Seattle. And implies they’re thinking of a move to North Scottsdale, where there happens to be a “Gateway”. Orange County is apparently out of the running… đ
Did anyone notice the adjectives Mr. Houston and Mr. Driscoll repeated used minimized the degree and extensiveness of the issues…
It was mistakes, not sin.
It was regret, not repentance.
The problem wasn’t Mark behavior per se, it was just that he started too young. Just making the same mistakes anyone at 25 would have made.
This isn’t a parking violation, its a hit and run with casualties.
the “anonymously on the internet” trope came back, and it is as inaccurate a telling of things now as it was last year … actually
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2015/07/ribbonfarm-on-cooperative-
ignorance.html
Thanks to this year’s contributions from Justin Dean and Sutton Turner it’s all but impossible for Mark Driscoll to say “we’re not entirely sure who they are”. If Driscoll insulated himself to the point of not wanting to know who had taken to criticizing his ministry approach THAT might be the case, but he said “we” last year in the months after regional and national media spelled out who was saying what; and former members and staffers were making it pretty clear who they were.
Providentially enough, it seems, ribbon farm had a great blog post last week about cultures of cooperative ignorance … it seemed to apply.
“Will Driscoll be able to rise from the ashes and build another ministry? We will definitely be watching⌔
I’m not losing any sleep over this one. When looking back on the rise of his first ministry, he was in his twenties and attracted a generation of people who wanted to be young and hip and relevant and whatever else. Those people followed and swallowed his baloney for around twenty years until the implosion of Mars Hill.
The problem he’ll have now is that in middle age, 45, he’s no longer young. He’s not going to attract the naive twenty somethings anymore. (they’re flocking the the Furticks & Co) And the people who are Mark’s age, well they’ve been around the block and I suspect the majority of them have gained some wisdom and are probably more than a little embarrassed that they fell for this crap in their youth.
And unfortunately for Driscoll, the internet never forgets.
He’ll flounder around in some type of ministry, but he’ll never have the influence he did before. The big whigs are not exactly lining up to have him speak at their conferences. Nor are publishers lining up to give him book deals. He’ll have a few fan boy hanger-on-ers, but other than that he’ll end up a legend in his own mind.
Mourning Dove wrote:
I’ve wondered about this, too. Based on what we’ve seen play out in public about their marriage, I suspect she’s been in it so long it feels normal. I remember him telling the story about driving 5 hours when she was in college because she forgot to call him when she arrived. (this was before cell phones) At that age a young woman might feel flattered by that, but the reality is, that’s a huge red flag of someone with control issues.
Did anyone read that part in their marriage book about her sitting in the floor, eight months pregnant while he yelled at her over an indiscretion that occurred in HIGH SCHOOL before they were even exclusively dating?? I was a little stunned that Mark wasn’t embarrassed to have the world know he did that.
Grace has done a pretty decent job of flying under the radar. Whether that’s by her choice or his, who knows? I think only her counselor can know for sure what’s going on and whether or not she feels trapped.
M. Joy wrote:
Do you think she is allowed to have a counselor outside of her husband?
roebuck wrote:
When Kennedy was shot, they sent us home from school. I remember being a bewildered early elementary aged student, wondering why all the adults were crying.
Flat Top wrote:
No. You weren’t the only one.
@ LT:
Wow. I’d read all that, but this is the first time I’ve seen it condensed and all together in one place. Really has an impact.
It took a while but a chronological survey of the events described across the cumulative narratives of the Driscoll resignation is up
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2015/07/a-diachronic-survey-of-driscoll.html
LT wrote:
That’s perhaps even better than being in politics.
I’m guessing I’m the only Wartburg Watcher who has seen ‘Weeds’. In the last series dodgy accountant ‘Doug’ gives up his latest business scam (raiding pension funds, charity fraud, fake homeless shelters) as he brushes up on his tax law and suddenly realises the best and most profitable gig out there – starting his own religious cult. Business, for Doug, is never better…
  __
“Freedom Or An Axe Ta Grind?”
hmmm…
(for whom?)
As Mark Driscoll rebuilds his image, is he shifting his $_ifocus to forgiveness & love?
Is Mark Driscoll now Trolling the 501(c)3 non-calvinist church landscape as as ‘William Wallace III’ ?
huh?
“I do not want to be the source of anything that might detract from our churchâs mission…” -Mark Driscoll
Is Mark Driscoll (once again) in his “don’t give dem church sucker(s) a break” mode?
(grin)
hahahahahahaÂ
Sopy
đ
—
Hillsong LTD Forces Vimeo to Take Down Mark Driscoll Video
http://www.christianvideotv.com/mark-driscoll-former-pastor-of-mars-hill-church-discusses-his-resignation-for-the-first-time/
They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know Godâs righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them
Looks to me like this blog fits the scripture above… Vey sad….. Who wants to cast the first stone…