first?

Enough of the “Who’s On First?” and let’s get to the actual commentary Dee was asking for.

1. Authoritarian leadership
2. Bad theology
3. A pastor who was willing to lie to maintain his status and authority–while calling me a liar

#1. A False Witness.

Example: True Christians are to be a witness for our Lord Jesus Christ. Baptising in the NAME of God (Matt 28). A False Witness, as an example(which is “witless”), teaches people are sinning against Jesus if they don’t TITHE (this is what PDI/$GM did). So it is a mix of Authoritarian (false) leadership, Bad (pin-head) theology, and people who want to live a legalistic life, rather than the TRUTH AS IT IS IN THE REAL JESUS!

I forgot to delete the why I might become a done. The church that I would go back to was the opposite of many churches. They were more Jesus like than almost all the churches I ever attended. They spent most of their money on helping the poor people in the neighborhood. When it came time to take the offering they would say God doesn’t need your money but if you want to worship him be helping them serve the community then you are welcome to do so. There is much more I could say about this church but if I could find a church like that in Florida I would dive right in.

Reasons I’m nearly a” done”
(1) the Child Protection Policy was not implemented
( 2) controlling / micro management style of leadership
(3) no accountability to the church members ‘re finances
(4) emphasis on how things look rather than integrity
Reasons I stayed so long
(1) I loved the leaders , they helped me through difficult times therefore admitting to what was wrong was difficult
(2) I was reluctant to uproot my family and start again
(3) I struggled to distinguish between the normal ups and downs in relationships and recognising spiritual abuse
Reasons I am trying to find another church
(1) there are children in my family, evangelical Christians are in a minority here , the kids need community
(2) I fear drifting away from the Lord

This is the first time I’ve posted. I couldn’t resist. My top 3:

1) Elite Pastoral Team who don’t associate with members. After 10 years, most of the pastors didn’t know my name, those that did rarely gave me eye contact and didn’t say hello when I passed them in the hallways. Once I bumped into my assigned pastor at Starbucks and he pretended he didn’t know me (i.e. looked away real quick when I walked in the door). Many of the pastors would hang out at Starbucks during the day.
2)Unapproachable/unavailable pastors who delegate the care of members to non-paid care group leaders who have full time jobs, long commutes, and family responsibilities. I was very thankful for our faithful care group leader who sacrificed so much of his time for the members in our group. It was almost impossible to get an appointment with our pastor since he didn’t like to meet after 5pm. His Saturdays were booked well in advance. When we did meet, he was pretty ineffective. Since we didn’t have a relationship with him, we relied on our care group for support/care instead of our assigned pastor.
3) Cliques among members/youth group, especially those who are in leadership positions;
4) All of the above created a non-friendly, non-loving, non-Christ-like culture that was oppressive.

I was a “Done” from a church with a celebrity pastor. Now I’ve found another church with loving members and a humble pastor who loves and cares for his church members.

Why I’m Currently a Done

1)Boring sermons – I find more inspirational sermons on-line that focus on Jesus

2 Bad theology – Misinterpreting scripture to fit an agenda

Why I am currently a Done or Why I might become a Done

Secondary issues being stressed (complementarianism, at the top — women are told they are “cherished” but in actuality they are “second class” citizens of heaven; mode of baptism; homeschooling; quiverfull)
Authoritarian leadership
Too much emphasis on political issues (abortion, anti-gay rights, women in the military)
Too much emphasis on judging outsides
No one talks to me
Bullying/shunning of children, especially by leaders’ children
Too much emphasis on giving (not a whole lot of sermons on tithing, I can recall one, specifically, but a whole lot of social pressure to tithe and give sacrificially above the tithe, and much humble-seeming pride on the part of those who gave more)
Music (in the end, music could only be led by males, even though there were more-qualified females who could have done so)
Judgmental members
Bad theology (God created some people to be saved. Others he created *just* for the purpose of throwing them into hell, destroying them. It makes him sound like a toddler given to tantrums. If scripture really says this (and it seems to) then I’m not sure I can continue being a “done” — I might end up as “none”. It no longer salves my conscience to think, as I’ve so often been told I should not fret at the idea of God creating people for destruction, but rather bask in the idea that he deigned to save some, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.)
Church discipline/Church abuse (we watched the abysmal discipline of “wayward teens and twenty-somethings” in the church with sorrow and dismay, and then it was our turn…)
I feel like my talents are ignored (I’m a woman. Need I say more?)

refugee wrote:

Secondary issues being stressed (complementarianism, at the top — women are told they are “cherished” but in actuality they are “second class” citizens of heaven; mode of baptism; homeschooling; quiverfull)

I know the popular term is “Secondary issues,” but I gotta tell you nothing makes me see red more than using this term (not by you personally refugee) to describe women’s issues!! The other term is “non-essentials.” grrrr….

Aren’t these terms the equivalent of relegating women to a subservient position?

I could easily become a “done,” but I didn’t know there was a *term* for the frustration I’m feeling.

Reasons why I was ready to leave my church, before I found out we were leaving the area:

1) I was horribly sick while pregnant, and couldn’t afford childcare. This meant my 2 year old was often babysat by the TV while I threw up into a bucket. I tried explaining this to church members, and not a single person offered to help. I had to be at the brink of premature birth, willing to beg, before people stepped up.

2) Even though I asked for prayer at the front of the church, from all the elders, for my daughter’s eating disorder, not a single person has called to follow up, or check up on how she’s doing, or offer support of any sort.

3) No one helped us move, even though (again) I was pregnant, puking, and we don’t have family in the area. After getting desperate, two very over-worked families w/ five kids of their own (each!) helped.

4) We still worked like dogs on the worship and technical teams.

5) A family who clung to Mark Driscoll’s teachings told *two* different women to go back to abusive husbands, even going so far as to support the husband in joining the church, despite the fact that the abused woman had *fled* there. I brought this to church leadership both times. That family is still in a prominent leadership position. Only my relationship w/ Dee and Julie Anne, and my reposting two of their articles on **Facebook** was able to change one of the family members minds. But, the abusive husbands of both families still attend the church. The wives are nowhere to be found. 🙁

6) Childcare was horible for Bible studies. We had to find and pay for our own, despite having a $100,000 sound system.

Posted this on the other thread, but it could better go here, I suppose. All of the reasons I gave pertain to our situation.

E.G. wrote:

On the other hand, I don’t get the “done” phenomenon either, because the vast majority of small to middling churches out there are not unloving, uncaring, uncommunitarian places. I attend a smallish church that generally works hard to exemplify love. If this church went south for some reason, there are at least two or three more in this town (and I live in a small town) that would also be fine. I’m not stuck on the church or the denomination. I’m stuck on love lived out in fellowship.

You have to understand, more than one reason can be in play:

– a “done” has been so hurt, as not to want to risk any further hurt

– a “done” who is an otherwise competent, intelligent person, cannot believe that s/he went along with it as long as s/he did (or even got drawn in, in the first place, though that might be explainable. Why, oh why, did it take so long to recognize the falsehood, and then having recognized it, why did this supposedly intelligent person question *self* rather than the perpetrators and others who’d had the wool pulled over their eyes? Surprisingly apt expression, in this case.) In any event, this particular kind of “done” doesn’t trust his/her judgement to choose a healthy church.

– a “done” keeps hearing about abuse in other churches, or when going on word-of-mouth from seemingly contented christians, looks at their friends’ churches and finds ties to A29 and 9Marks, for example.

– a “done” might have attended a mainline church in the past, and found it “dead”. Oh, it might be a social club, a place to go on Sundays, even a place with people who do some good (fundraisers, for example, to benefit the poor, or a weekly dinner for the homeless), but the worship is all form (“smells and bells” I’ve heard it called) and you hear people in charge talking about things like not believing in the virgin birth.

– a “done” might have been accused of “church shopping” or “church hopping” in the past. Or worse. Won’t go into detail, but the accusations that happened in our final interview at the church we left last year were vile and disheartening and manipulative — I suppose they expected us to stay in that church to prove that we weren’t the type of people they were insinuating.

– in our case (before we got sucked into hyper-calvinism), we came out of a liberal church where grace abounded, but the sermons talked about such things as “the myth of Adam and Eve”. That was off-putting for me, anyhow. If we start throwing out parts of the Bible, then who decides what parts are worth keeping? As a matter of fact, if only parts are worth keeping, then what’s the use of *any* of it? There’s a lot of wisdom literature out there. I was blessed, in college, before I got “saved”, by the writings of Kahlil Gibran, for example. And that poster with the “Desiderata” on it — I knew people who set their moral compass by that piece of writing.

I could go on, but any or all of the above might apply. Depends on who you talk to.

Specific reasons that led to us being “done”, that I didn’t mention above:
– No matter how we tried, we were never accepted. We could never quite crack that invisible code that enabled one to be welcome amongst the in-crowd. (“in-crowd” sounds so… unbiblical)

We spent two decades at that church, and yet our friends were mostly the other unfavored ones. Not that we wanted to become accepted as “in” and then would have ostracized the “other” people — we believed everyone was a part of the Body, that there shouldn’t be factions. But we felt tolerated, at best, by those that everyone there would have called “the leading families”. Sort of like Junior High all over again.

– the elders’ children decided that our kids were not worthy of associating with. Why? I haven’t a clue. The stories I heard after we left, of cruelties and back-biting, make me weep. No wonder our kids didn’t want to go to church. No wonder they kept to themselves during the social times before and after services. What makes this acceptable christian behavior? How could those kids — *elders* kids, at that! — possibly believe that this is the right way to treat *anyone*???

– we watched other families’ “rebellious” teens and twenty-somethings disciplined — *not* discipled, but disciplined — and then when ours became completely detached from the church (who could blame them?), it was our turn, except that we chose to leave the church instead of staying and letting our kids be excommunicated for their “rebellion” (which was actually *hurt*).

– when other families left, we contacted them because we were troubled and wanted to know why. In so many cases, it involved a woman questioning the leadership and being labeled “divisive” or “rebellious” or “a gossip”.

– when I questioned the elders, citing my perceptions of “second-class citizen” status, frankly in despair at the emptiness I felt inside, I was first accused of speaking sarcastically, and then when I convinced them of my sincerity, I was labeled rebellious. It was all my fault, and my husband’s, for not following the “biblical” way that the elders taught and demonstrated in their own lives. (Though, talking to our kids, I learned how behind the scenes, their lives and their families were not the perfect picture they presented to everyone else.)

The reasons on “Why I am currently a Done or Why I might become a Done” appear to be about issues with the church leadership and/or congregation… they don’t offer the possibility that the “Done” person was “done” for selfish and unrighteous reasons.

“Why I stopped being a Done” reasons continue that underlying premise.

Reading this article one could draw the conclusion that no one ever leaves a church for the wrong reason.

We have been in 8 churches over the last 40 years. 1 was great, 2 were good, 3 were OK, and 2 were horribly bad. The defining moments in all of the churches but the horribly bad were when new leadership came in and wanted to change the vision of the church, it was always at the expense of equipping the church for the work of the ministry and forsaking the leading if The Holy Spirit. It became more of building up the men of gawd.

My husband and I have always been I terested in ministering outside the 4 walks of the church. Most churches did not like that. My husband has been an elder, deacon, Christian school board member. . He would never compromise in what he felt was the right thing g to do. He was made so miserable when he was an elder that he resigned to protect the ministry we had( outside the 4 walls). It was interesting when I heard several people refer to him as the conscience if the elder board.

If we ever go back to a church, it will to one that cares about the poor, homeless, widowed, fatherless etc, rather than about church attendance the building fund.

I do have to say that throughout the years we have met 4 exceptional Pastors. They were all humble men who cared more about the people in their care than they did about themselves. And they hated being looked up to, preferring to point people to God.

refugee wrote:

Victorious wrote:

refugee wrote:
Secondary issues being stressed (complementarianism, at the top — women are told they are “cherished” but in actuality they are “second class” citizens of heaven; mode of baptism; homeschooling; quiverfull)
I know the popular term is “Secondary issues,” but I gotta tell you nothing makes me see red more than using this term (not by you personally refugee) to describe women’s issues!! The other term is “non-essentials.” grrrr….
Aren’t these terms the equivalent of relegating women to a subservient position?

I think I understand where you’re coming from, but I also understand why they’re called “secondary issues” — primary issues having to do with the deity of Christ, if I’m not mistaken. At least, by my understanding, He has the pre-eminence in this discussion, and everything else is secondary to that.

I could be wrong, though.

I struggle with this too. Comp/Egal is not a primary issue regarding salvation, the deity of Christ, etc. But I find it hard to lump it in with modes of baptism and schooling choices. It is far more important than that. Most of my friends are comps and I would never break fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ over the issue. But many people have broken fellowship with me or stopped reading my blog once they realized I was not a full-on complementarian but instead believed in mutual submission.

@ WillysJeepMan:
Oh, yes, of course there is the possibility that people leave church for selfish reasons.

I’m very selfish. I left the church because I couldn’t stand to watch my teens being hurt. Isn’t that stupid and selfish? I didn’t leave over doctrine. I didn’t realize until we’d been gone for some months how screwed-up the doctrine at that church had been.

Certainly CJ Mahaney and Mark Driscoll left their churches for selfish reasons.

Yes, people can leave churches for the wrong reason (maybe they want to continue molesting children and the pastor says it’s evil; on a more serious note,I knew a woman who left a church because she divorced her husband and married another man, but since I didn’t know her reasons or what went on behind closed doors at her house, I can’t really say if she was in the wrong, or if it might have been considered a “biblical divorce” by theologians), but this forum has been discussing people who have left for reasons of spiritual abuse, so it’s no surprise (to me, anyhow) that the bulk of the discussion is assuming the people had sound reasons for leaving.

Sallie Borrink wrote:

refugee wrote:
Victorious wrote:
refugee wrote:
Secondary issues being stressed (complementarianism, at the top — women are told they are “cherished” but in actuality they are “second class” citizens of heaven; mode of baptism; homeschooling; quiverfull)
I know the popular term is “Secondary issues,” but I gotta tell you nothing makes me see red more than using this term (not by you personally refugee) to describe women’s issues!! The other term is “non-essentials.” grrrr….
Aren’t these terms the equivalent of relegating women to a subservient position?
I think I understand where you’re coming from, but I also understand why they’re called “secondary issues” — primary issues having to do with the deity of Christ, if I’m not mistaken. At least, by my understanding, He has the pre-eminence in this discussion, and everything else is secondary to that.
I could be wrong, though.
I struggle with this too. Comp/Egal is not a primary issue regarding salvation, the deity of Christ, etc. But I find it hard to lump it in with modes of baptism and schooling choices. It is far more important than that. Most of my friends are comps and I would never break fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ over the issue. But many people have broken fellowship with me or stopped reading my blog once they realized I was not a full-on complementarian but instead believed in mutual submission.

And, of course, the CBMW is making comp/egal into a primary issue. A salvation issue, actually, right?

(and yeah, I get you… it’s why I put it *first* on the list, but it really is galling, isn’t it. Except that I knew at least one very outspoken judgmental person at our old church — and there were probably more who were “nicer” about their bigotry — who elevated secondary issues as almost an art form. I remember debating with her about whether non-homeschooling families could be welcome at church (I kid you not).

Jazmin wrote:

1. I was tired of hearing the message that we weren’t good enough. God was always mad at us. That shit made me suicidal at one point. 2. The manipulation and control. 3. Grace not being taught. 4. Realized most people were pretending. Not so much because they were hypocrites, but because it was safer than being eaten alive by the pastor. 5. The cover ups(I was a witness to sex abuse cover up when I was about 15) 6. Political affiliations. 7. Inequality for women
8. Their stand against homosexuality
9. The doctrine of Hell
10. The hypocrisy of the leadership (like learning that 1/3 of all pastors are addicted to porn). 11. Creationist doctrine.
12. The bible says some crazy f***d up stuff. Like if you love me you’ll kill your first born. WTF. I recall The God Journey folks saying, “If you wouldn’t have a friend like that, why would you have a God like that!” Seriously.

Well, Jasmin, I agree with most you say, except that the Bible doesn’t say anything “crazy” or “bleeped up”, it’s just sometimes filtered through the eyes of the type of people who like to use phrases like “WTF” who are ignorant of the culture in which it was written and who in their prejudices and modernistic chauvinism are unwilling to further investigate and wind up tossing the baby the way of the bathwater. Just sayin.

WillysJeepMan wrote:

The reasons on “Why I am currently a Done or Why I might become a Done” appear to be about issues with the church leadership and/or congregation… they don’t offer the possibility that the “Done” person was “done” for selfish and unrighteous reasons.
“Why I stopped being a Done” reasons continue that underlying premise.
Reading this article one could draw the conclusion that no one ever leaves a church for the wrong reason.

Nice try, but your attempt at an incisive point falls apart on examination.

This was not a poll to determine whether the reason people give are valid, it was a poll to determine what people’s reasons were. People are quite free to say they left a church for stupid reasons, I doubt seriously that D&D would strike that comment.

WJM – Have you ever opined that vocal leaders within the institutional church typically draw the conclusion that no one ever leaves a church for the right reason?

I’m done, but not quit yet. Speaking from a Southern Baptist perspective:

(1) Bad theology
Calvinization of the largest non-Calvinist denomination in America is proceeding at break-neck speed. Reformed theology is aberrant Christian teaching. Traditional SBC belief and practice is hanging on by a thread, as reformed influence comes in the back door by stealth and deception. New Calvinist leaders already control 7 of 11 SBC entities (lead seminaries, publishing house, home and foreign mission agencies).

(2) Authoritarian leadership
With Calvinism, elder rule polity will gradually replace congregational governance in the SBC. It is already the ecclesiology of choice by YRR pastors in SBC’s new church plants. Traditional churches will drift into that model within a generation as older members pass from the scene. SBC’s theo-politics at the national level are in the hands of a relatively few authoritarian leaders who are out and about shaping the 21st century SBC into the image of Calvin. Ye shall know them by their arrogance … control and manipulation are not fruit of the Spirit.

(3) Church discipline/Church abuse
There are too many horror stories of elder rule gone bad (Acts 29, Village Church, Sovereign Grace Ministries, etc.). Women members are oppressed in spirit; their spiritual gifts are not recognized or encouraged. New Calvinism preaches to men. In SBC church plants, 30 year old pastors with 20-30 year old “elders” is a recipe for disaster … the youth group doesn’t need to be in charge of church.

A few of my reasons.

1. Christians, especially of the regular church going variety, are not willing to expend time, energy, or effort to personally help another hurting person, even when asked to (whether financially, giving emotional support, other practical assistance)

2. Adult singleness / childlessness / childfree.

Many churches continue to put too much importance on marriage, children, the family, and meeting the needs of married couples.

While they simultaneously either ignore adult singles, or, the churches that pay them any attention, demean and denigrate singleness and/or being without children

3A. Gender complementarianism (also known as biblical womanhood and manhood),
in which sexism is actually passed off as being God’s design for humanity, with a few cherry picked or misinterpreted verses for support.

In this system, women are not permitted to utilize their skills and talents, or to pursue areas of personal interest (where they feel drawn), but get relegated to roles, such as babysitter in the church nursery, that they may have no interest in nor aptitude for.

3B. Continually minimizing domestic violence if they bother to address it at all;
Putting the burden on the abused wife to change or fix the husband via her behavior / pressuring the abused wife to stay with the abusive spouse no matter what

3C. Divorce.
Either treating the divorced like the unpardonable class, and insisting there are little to no legitimate reasons for people to divorce (not even abuse).

4. Ignorance and/or disdain about mental health problems.
Treating people who have mental health problems like failures, or giving them ineffective advice, such as telling them to just pray about it, read the Bible more, or go volunteer at a homeless shelter to deal with it.

5a. Too preoccupied with attracting the kids and college crowd.
Anyone over the age of about 35 is ignored. But churches will do back flips to get kids in the door. Which results also in point 5b.

5b. Too much concern with being Relevant and with image.
Churches spend large sums on rock band equipment, a 55 year old preacher tries to dress and act like a 21 year old on stage, churches have to have a slick web site, etc.

6. Authoritarian preachers – and they aren’t held accountable.
Preachers like Mark Driscoll bullied the people he worked with and for at his church for years.

Top reasons for being “almost” done:
1. Spiritual abuse of many in former church.
2. Cover-up of child sex abuse without rebuke or consequence.
3. Lead pastor in new church says he doesn’t usually meet with members of the congregation.
4. Pastors of new church hire staff person to focus on caring for the congregation because they believe they have too many other responsibilities.
5. New church leadership refuses to implement kid and youth protection policies – they believe nothing will happen in their church.
6. Invasive Neo Calvinist movement

WHY I AM CURRENTLY A DONE (and will probably remain a done…)

1. Secondary issues being stressed
(a) complementarianism “worshipped” as primary doctrine
(b) nouthetic/pastoral counseling always promoted; little, if any, pastoral
recommendation to seek Christian professional counseling

2. Authoritarian leadership
(a) complementarianism at all costs
(b) a low view of beyond high school education for girls/women
(c) a high view of the SGM pastors’ college

3. Mishandling of child sex abuse
(a) an absolute refusal to take a stand against SGM leadership for the culture that
now surrounds SGM
(b) an apparent disregard for the pain and suffering of victims and families by
disregarding the brave voices in the congregation calling for accountability on both
the local level and top leadership level

4. Church finances
(a) the formation of a finance “team” as nothing more than window dressing (rarely
took the counsel of the “team”)
(b) under funding ministries other than the music ministry

5. Music
(a) too loud
(b) appeared to be more like an entertaining concert than able to draw the congregation
in to worship with them
(c) too heavy of a reliance upon songs produced/composed by SGM/the “elite” songwriters

6. Sermons
(a) too long
(b) too much reliance upon “quotes” from esteemed sources
(c) sermons seemed to most always be pointed to the men

7. Bad theology
(a) elevating complementarianism/patriarchal/authoritarianism as primary doctrine
(b) pastors unable or unwilling to explain how they could simultaneously desire the
Holy Spirit to be manifested (as in the gifts of the Spirit) but relegate
expression of the Holy Spirit to be redefined (reading a scripture or giving an
exortation to the congregation is not prophecy)
(c) buying into the notion that the “preaching event” is the central point of meeting
together

8. I feel like the full range of my talents were curtailed. [See #1a & #2a above]

Andrea wrote:

I guess because I wasn’t attending with my husband that made it okay for the elders and pastor to ignore me.

Many churches do that for anyone who walks in alone, like in your case, or with divorced people, or widows, the never married adults, etc.

refugee wrote:

Bad theology (God created some people to be saved. Others he created *just* for the purpose of throwing them into hell, destroying them. It makes him sound like a toddler given to tantrums. If scripture really says this (and it seems to) then I’m not sure I can continue being a “done” — I might end up as “none”. It no longer salves my conscience to think, as I’ve so often been told I should not fret at the idea of God creating people for destruction, but rather bask in the idea that he deigned to save some, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.)

That is what it seems like Paul is saying when it is taken out of context by these guys. Paul was making an “even if” argument. I am so sorry this is put on Paul and on God, and I’m also very sorry that this kind of scripture twisting has made you distrust the goodness of God. That is certainly a rational response to this very flawed teaching.

WillysJeepMan wrote:

Reading this article one could draw the conclusion that no one ever leaves a church for the wrong reason.

I’m pretty sure that most of us have mixed motives even on the best days. And I think that most people realize that we can all do things for the wrong reasons. But nothing is gained from that observation. What can be gained is insight into very valid reasons people have left or are contemplating leaving. Dismissing those with the objection that there are also selfish or sinful reasons misses the point of the post, IMO.

@ Victorious:
At least some are now frankly acknowledging that they believe that the subordination of women is a Gospel issue. They used to talk around that and say that it is a secondary issue like mode and subject of baptism and polity. Now we know the truth, and it is really a first-tier issue in Al’s triage.

I commented before, but forgot to mention the mist important issue for me, Church doesn’t seem Holy anymore.i remember part of an old hymn I used to get chills down my back from , ” We are walking on holy ground” in the mega churches I do not feel the presence of God.

(con’t) …

II. Evangelicalism is generally more about maintaining middle/upper class white systems than it is about taking the path of love/truth, following Christ’s example. If I am not going to follow Christ, I see no reason to call myself a Christian.

a. These middle class values are underlined by current neo-lib market capitalism, with its just-world theory via work ethic and business chutzpah, and its fantasy of the self-correction of market economies. This emphasis creates an odd sort of currency-based logical positivism, showing in over-emphasis on corporate structuring, inability to grasp nuance, shallow artistic values, and denigration of the humanities (psychology/sociology, history, educational theory, etc). IMO, the strange logical positivism reverts to literalism towards the Bible. It also distorts understanding of the Holy Spirit, tending to either ignore or over-emphasize via charismatic spiritism. It also contributes to a lack of intellectual rigor, making it difficult to process the complexities/limitations of such theories as evolution and functional political pluralism.

b. They maintain separation from the Black and Latino Churches, as well as from other denominations. It is delusional to talk about “engaging broader culture” (much less “missioning other nations”) when they can’t even bridge these narrow differences.

c. They overvalue money and yet undervalue it’s effectiveness in helping the disenfranchised. It is dishonest to point how much they give to charity when the bulk of their giving goes to themselves through buildings, accoutrements, and the hiring of more staff. It is simply nasty to work to dismantle national aids programs “because the church should take on such functions” when they don’t even fill the current unmet needs.

Apologies for the rant

Patrice wrote:

Why I no longer belong:
I. It is an authoritarian system:
a. Many don’t see me as a human of full value, insisting on relating to only a small portion of who I am, simple because I am a woman. That is insulting. I find no thrills in being around people who insult me.
b. Some think they carry more authority from God than the rest of us, even though it’s been proven over and over and over to be a silly idea. I am not interested in indulging the ridiculous.

Well said, Patrice.

@ refugee:
Not sure how that happened.

Also, I was called “A Feminist” for suggesting that a woman *should not* return to an abusive husband. After that episode, I was intensely ostracized in our church. It’s as if caring about the needs of the women, other than encouraging their submission, was the equivalent of Vashti refusing to come before the king!! 🙁

I later realized that our church had many Gothard-loving homeschooling families. 🙁

XianJaneway wrote:

I’ve seen a lot of comments saying that only married couples and families were valued or cared for. I’ve noticed that in my situation, married women were expected to care for all of the children

I think child care is expected of women in general, whether married or single.

But single women are assumed to have more free time than married ladies, so it seems that the singles usually get the greater expectation to get involved with children in church.

Overall, I’d say that most churches offer the most help to married couples with kids than singles / childless. It depends on the particular church.

In evangelical propaganda, marriage is valued more than singleness. Procreation is valued more than being childless; maybe in your church, they did not practice what they preach.

They probably attach more significance on to marriage and parenting than they do singleness but don’t do much to actually help married couples.

There are a lot of other churches where the single adults are expected to be play a butler or maid role to the married couples (e.g., perform free baby sitting for children), but the married couples in such churches are not expected or asked by church leaders to help the singles.

There are actually books by evangelicals which promote the view that the only thing adult singles are good for is supporting those already married with kids.

You can read more about that and some of these other topics in the book “Singled Out,” by Bonnie Field.

XianJaneway wrote:

Also, I was called “A Feminist” for suggesting that a woman *should not* return to an abusive husband

I don’t classify myself as a feminist or use that word, but it doesn’t matter with gender complementarian Christians.

They automatically assume that any point of disagreement with gender complementarianism is feminism. They either think you are a feminist or have been influenced by (secular) feminists.

They have a very hard time accepting or recognizing that a person can reject gender comp views but still hold conservative views on other subjects, including the Bible.

Max wrote:

What arrogance!

I once asked my former pastor why SGM was sending out 20-somethings to lead church plants at such a young age. His response: No problem, they’ve been trained under mature leadership and are ready to go.

A lifetime ago I served as the associate pastor to the 25-or so “senior” pastor. I learned first hand that serving under a young pastor (yes, I was young as well) could be a recipe for disaster. While he could preach up a storm, his character was of immature recklessness. Arrogance ruled the day.

Someone said that it would be good for would-be pastors/elders to work 10-15 years in positions outside of the church to gain real work experience. I tend to agree. I also think it would be refreshing for pastors to be tentmakers. Who would have time to be a “celebrity” pastor then? 😉

1. The eviction of the Holy Spirit from the church and the embrace of human laws and rules and systems. When the Spirit is not welcome, it is only a matter of time for the church body which will decay. People will fear God or fear men. They will love God and so love one another or they will love men and not love one another. There are men, including but not limited to the Gospel Glitterati, who desire for us to fear them and to fear one another rather than to love us and to encourage us to love God and one another.

2. The requirement that the Eternal Son be forever a subordinate Person within the Trinity. Combined with #1, there is no longer an orthodox Trinitarian theology being taught in Gospel Glitterati churches.

3. The abandonment of the authority of the Biblical texts in favor of ad hoc interpretations which advance an agenda that has nothing to do with the agenda of God revealed in the Bible. This is functional liberalism masquerading as conservatism. Again, this includes but is not limited to the Gospel Glitterati.

4. The addition of essential practices and beliefs to the simple Gospel message which effectively neutralizes the power of the Gospel and replaces it with letters of death.

5. The replacement of Jesus the Christ as King by usurpers who claim authority that belongs only to him. And they do that in his name and claim to be doing it for the sake of his name.

6. All of the corrosive and toxic and soul-deadening doctrines and practices which flow from these.

Why I am currently a Done or Why I might become a Done

• Authoritarian leadership – The pastor’s wife has repeated quite a few times, “My husband does not do counseling”. The pastor says very little to his members, he is “above” them all. As a lay person, I do not feel that I could ever go to the pastor for any concerns about doctrine or anything else. Not to mention, those that have, with sending letters and such have had their private letters passed around as church gossip. It is abusive and authoritarian in many ways. I do not feel “safe” around the leadership. You must live your life a certain way, believe a certain way, vote a certain way.

• Too much emphasis on political issues (which ones) – It is assumed that everyone is a right wing conservative republican. One cannot sit through a sermon without Fox News mentioned and other republican issues. Somewhere someone once told me that the bible mentions helping the needy and marginalized in society 2500 times. Never once have I been able to find in the bible that corporations need tax cuts. Not to mention too much emphasis on “It is the end times, and it is Obama’s fault”. Etc. I do not feel welcome due to the mixture of unbiblical political issues being indicated and preached from the pulpit and all the members assuming that everyone is a conservative republican. Jesus was neither a republican or a democrat. This is abuse of the pulpit in my opinion. Politics have been allowed to hijack the church. There should be room for all political beliefs in the church, not just one.

• Too much emphasis on judging outsides – You should fellowship with other Christians only, or you are opening yourself up to satanic attack and influence. But I ask, how do we reach those outside the walls of the brick and mortar church, if we stick to only those within the walls or with the same beliefs. The only time one is to reach outside those walls are with church approved activities to evangelize to people (preach) which in many cases, does little to reach people in need. People want to be heard, and understood, not have the bible rolled up like a baseball bat and beat them over the head, to get them to come to Christ.

• Mishandling of domestic violence – Women are to submit to their husbands. The husband is the ruler and spiritual leader of his household. This includes when men abuse this and manipulate scripture. The pastor at the church will NOT marry anyone that has been divorced. Someone else must do the ceremony.

• Pastor doesn’t know my name after x years – He knows my name, but simply does not care. I am simply a body in the pews, with access to an ATM machine and checkbook. That’s it.

• Church money being spent on buildings, etc.instaed of on ______ (fill in the blank) – Money is seldom spent on things where money is taken in for whatever purpose. The pastor takes it upon himself to purchase more million dollar properties and place the burden on the flock. This is to “grow” the church, although there has been a decline in membership. I can remember many many times where the plate would go around 4-5 times during a sermon for various reasons. Once was for the benevolence fund and I watched as people filled the collection plates with money. Then the following Wed I received a long list of things we were supposed to purchase with our own money for benevolence, prior to bible study, and drop off these groceries at the office the following week. As a young obedient Christian in my walk, I went out and purchased everything despite not being able to afford it, and we ate ramen instead at home. I asked about “what happened to the money given during service for this fund?” and it was denied that there was even a collection. Things like this were common. The pastors lived like royalty with constant vacations, expensive cars, clothing, etc. etc. Where was all this money going?

• No one talks to me – Well, they talk to me if they are passing by with a fake church smile. Beyond that, I am excluded. In 6 years I never made a single friend, NOT ONE. This despite going out of my way to be friendly and make friends and volunteer at every opportunity I could. The cliques and church royalty had already been defined. I was not included and never included unless it was an event where I could bring a gift for a member or whatever. (i.e. housewarming party, etc.). Since I did not act/dress/behave like a Stepford wife (A stepford wife shuts up, looks pretty, dresses in certain ways, and does not question her husband, is always adoring, good housekeeper, and her life rotates around her children and husband and has no worth outside of that) and am single, with no children, there was no room for me. I could have made more friends if I had spoken in more “churchanize” dialect instead of the common English speaking language that I do speak in. I found them more friendly if I used words that made me “sound” more holy. Throw in the word “anointed” and such, in the middle of sentences and you might win a few “fans”. But, I would rather be myself than a fakey Stepford wife clone. Because of this, other than the passing hello church smile, I was excluded. I was spoken to in bible study classes, but mostly because I did my homework and could fill in the blanks. Outside of this, no friends.

• Too much emphasis on giving – Every time you turned around! Hold on to that checkbook! It was not uncommon for the collection plate to pass quite a few times during services, guilt about tithing doctrine and manipulation of the widows mite was common in order to get the poorest to give. “Forget about that light bill, you owe God the first 10% of your income, it belongs to ME… errrr, or I mean God!”.. “God will provide for you if you pay the church FIRST, and your rent will magically appear and God will bless you double” and on and on and on…. Then when folks can’t pay their rent because of their faithful giving, being turned away at the church for help. I witnessed this time and time again.

• Music – Good grief, I love to rock out from time to time, but I think I went to a Rolling Stones concert in my youth, that wasn’t nearly as loud. The music was 7-11 music and would go on and on for ever, and would actually send me into panic attacks. I would have to retreat to the bathroom (often) in order to escape it.

• Judgmental members – I think some of them bring Hate to a new level. Hateful, Mean, Judgmental and certainly not showing the fruits Jesus spoke about. I can’t even begin to repeat some of the things that were said to me in the name of God, by some of these “upstanding holy souls”. Not only Judgmental, but whisper campaigns about people with the worst character assassination I have ever seen. Yet, all doing this will a smile on their face. Because it is OK to be toxic and mean, as long as you have your church smile on your face. I have seen people almost destroyed by these types. Yet, these people will ask something and another person will start to open up about their struggles, and be shot down, lectured, unsolicited advice without them even knowing the whole story. Extremely uncompassionate folks.

• No one called or helped me when____________ (fill in the blank) Never once! I can say a few did offer rides to bible study and a few did come through since it is a long way to walk and my house was on the way. But, I can’t count the times I was stood up too. Where I would get up in the morning, shower, dress, sit and wait, and no phone call, no show, nothing. No one called or helped during some serious struggles, partly because I was just told to “pray about it” or “Call someone about it” (despite not having anyone’s numbers because I was not with the “in” crowd), and partly because when something serious/bad did happen, I found out it was just best to keep my mouth shut and not even confide in anyone if I was struggling, because if you are struggling, then you must be living outside of the will of God and it is him allowing you to be punished for sin XYZ. The only people that deserved compassion and help, were those within the inner circle of the church and their friends. If you fall outside of that, you are on your own.

• Boring sermons – No, I would not say “boring” as much as manipulation of scripture and bad doctrine, in order the fleece the flock.

• Bad theology – Prosperity Gospel, Speaking in Tongues, Personal Prayer Language, Faith Healing, and on and on…

• Church discipline/Church abuse – I am not sure if it is church discipline or just that since I was not a Stepford Wife, that I was unworthy to speak to and was being shunned because I did something “wrong” or I just did not fit in. Well, I am sure I did something “Wrong” as gossip was rampant. I am sure I am being disciplined by members for something I never did and don’t know what is being said… Although, I have never formally received any sort of letter. Sometimes the members take it upon themselves to discipline other members on an unofficial level. But, it is like fight club where one does not simply speak about fight club, it is just there. Most people that are being shunned, have no idea why they are being shunned, just that they are. I can’t count the amount of folks that will walk right past me in the grocery store, then on Sunday have their Howdy Doody Smile on their face in front of the congregation.

• I feel like my talents are ignored – I have lots of talents and how can they know them, if they never take the time to get to know me, or what they are? I am to the point where I seriously don’t care if they are ignored. I have reached the point where I am happy they don’t know them, so I can’t be taken advantage of. I can reach out to those that need me with my talents on my own and touch lives. I am fine with that at this point.

• Science was denigrated – Young Earth Society! Nuff said…

Pretty much, I have reached the point where if half of these people came to make amends, I simply would not care or be interested in striking up a friendship with them at this point. They have only shown me wax, or plastic fruit. I will simply move on. Be nice, but the walls of protection are up around me. I am still licking my wounds and have found more love and compassion from my secular and agnostic and humanist friends than I ever received in the church. I still have deep faith and will continue with my relationship with God. I will be meeting with other believers that are “dones” in my home for bible study, together so we can heal and still meet with other believers, and have fellowship.

Why I was a Done:
1. Mishandling of my DV situation.
2. Mishandling of sexual abuse in the church.
3. No one called or helped me when my husband walked out on me and the children even though we had attended that church for 20 years.
5. Unapproachable authoritarian leadership.
6. Discounting me because I am a woman.
7. Not being able to use my gifts in the church (because of #6).
8, Long and boring sermons.
9. Cliques among the leadership and the membership. I felt like an outsider.

I think I have found a church where the pastor seems to “get it”. He grew up in home where his father walked out on his mother, worked in the real world before becoming a pastor, has a tender heart, and wants the church to remain small enough for him to effectively pastor everyone. He cares about me and is concerned that the church be a place where I can heal. I have not detected any gender issues or authoritarian attitudes. I don’t agree with all the doctrine but it seems to be okay that I disagree. How did I find this church? My son and his family go there. My son was (and still is) friends with the pastor’s sons and, when my husband left, the pastor reached out to my son. My son has been lovingly persistent in inviting me to visit but it has taken me many years to be able to go to church again.

Why I might have stopped being a done:
1. The pastor knows me and cares about me as a person.
2. The pastor is sensitive to and knowledgeable about abuse.
3. I respect the pastor’s character.
4. I have missed worshiping together with others.
5. I would like to use my gifts in the church.
7. It’s not a megachurch.

I became a done because:

1. Burned out from leading worship and feeling that the other pastors only cared about my musical contributions and very little about my own needs
2. Tired of seeing dishonest pastors tell me one thing and their congregation another
3. Tired of the talk about caring for the poor and seeing very little done by those taking the collections and living high on the hog
4. Arrogance of church leaders and pastors
5. Tired of seeing people with problems ignored or condemned instead of love and patience
6. Tired of having my child’s mental disablilty ignored or minimized
7. tired of all the buzz words and Christian double-speak
8. Tired of hearing about doctrine and yet seeing no love. A doctrine of love is different than actual love.

After years (6 1/2) where I currently live and trying different churches, always hoping for the best but continually being frustrated by the mega-church complexes and lack of theological discernment, I settled in to the church where a friend goes. But when the pastor (who was sound of doctrine and dedicated to equipping the saints) retired, and the new guy was voted in, it all went to crap.

The straw that broke the camel’s back was:
1. A pastor who was a complete lying sociopath.
2. Lack of discernment regarding false doctrine.
3. Shallow sermons that occasionally were plagiarized from other sources.
4. A deacon board that were nothing but yes men.
5. Almost complete disregard for the older Scripture-based hymns.
So basically I am tired of fighting that battle. I want real fellowship with like-minded Christians in my area but have no clue how to make that happen other than this one local Bible study I go to.
Frustrated!

Daisy wrote:

Charity wrote:
Too much emphasis on political issues (which ones) – It is assumed that everyone is a right wing conservative republican
One thing I wanted to add about this is that I am a right wing Republican and a social conservative.
While Christians or preachers talking about things related to these views didn’t bother me too much before, they did start to bother me as I got older.
I have heard other people who quit conservative (right wing) churches (or denominations) for liberal (left wing) ones who say that some of the left wing ones can be just as bad, only they are on the other end of the political spectrum on issues.
I think people are bothered by too much emphasis on politics in a church setting period, regardless of what those politics are.
I’m just bringing this up because I know that a lot of other conservative / right wing Christians who vote Republican will read over a thread like this, and see all the
“I am so tired of conservative values / politics being pushed in churches” comments
and assume everyone here saying this is liberal or a Democrat, and perhaps reject your comments out of hand.
I am a Republican / conservative myself and think emphasis upon politics goes on too much in some churches.
(I’m not a liberal or Democrat, so it’s not just people in these groups saying this, is what I am getting at.)

I understand that, and that is fine. That is why I stated that Jesus was neither a republican or a democrat. But, churches need to get out of the business of preaching politics and alienating members regardless of which side of the political spectrum they come from. I don’t agree with all democratic issues, but I do believe we should get back to teaching Christ, not what MSNBC, CNN, FOX NEWS or any of the other news agencies come up with. 🙂

Charity wrote:

That is why I stated that Jesus was neither a republican or a democrat.

Agreed 100%. It just boggles my mind that Christians think God is for one party or the other or that He cares about keeping ANY country in power. The OT Jews made that mistake when they were looking for a Messiah and many missed Him when he came.

Being GOP or DEM will not change hearts – only Jesus. And it is the love of God that leads us to repentance, not condemnation.

1. Authoritarian leadership broke the cord and allowed me to see clearly,

2. churches that substitute pastors and organizations for Christ, the organization becomes more important than Christ and each other,

3. church leaders who want people to invest in the organization and not each other, they stress we should give to the organization rather than those in need, they emphasize we should care for the church but not for each other,

4. church leaders with an inability to listen, do they care?

5. and finally young arrogant CEO pastors.

I’m not a done but these are things that drive me to the edge.

Daisy wrote:

I am a Republican / conservative myself and think emphasis upon politics goes on too much in some churches.

I’m likely of the same stripe. About fifteen or twenty years ago I helped craft a policy to keep partisan politics, that were primarily conservative, out of the church I formerly attended. I had support from some in the church whom I believed were of a like mind.

Unfortunately fast forward to a decade later and I found those who I thought were of like mind, keep politics out, were just partisans of the other stripe and were bringing their politics in. When I similarly opposed their efforts all of a sudden I was the one being political.

So yeah, I can add that to my list, people who can’t leave their politics behind and believe it is more important than Christ and community.

When you read about all the Christian leaders that have abused their members, ie CJMahaney, Mark Driscoll, Matt Chandler, James MacDonald, Why would anyone continue to believe in a Christian God? Read this recently, well worth reading

http://infidels.org/library/modern/ken_daniels/why.html

@ Bridget:

I typed comp (for complementarian), not completion. Smart phones not so smart.

Have to say I am Done, why because all I see are Christian leaders who are hypocrites. They claim they love Jesus yet they continue to abuse the authority and power they have over their members. How very sad that this is what we read day after day, nothing good, nones are dones.

refugee wrote:

Bad theology (God created some people to be saved. Others he created *just* for the purpose of throwing them into hell, destroying them. It makes him sound like a toddler given to tantrums. If scripture really says this (and it seems to) then I’m not sure I can continue being a “done” — I might end up as “none”. It no longer salves my conscience to think, as I’ve so often been told I should not fret at the idea of God creating people for destruction, but rather bask in the idea that he deigned to save some, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.)

This being held by some Christians to be the true Christian message is the major reason I am also a ‘done’ & could be a ‘none’. If I could be certain this wasn’t true, things would change for me.

@ Daisy:

Thank you, Daisy. Me, too.

Why I am ” Done”
1. Neo-Calvinists
2. Bad music
3. Bad sermons all around.
4. The treatment of anyone over the age of 45.
5. The treatment of women.
6. The money involved in churches today.

Clay Crouch wrote:

To all the Dones, the Episcopal Church welcomes you! No screaming, no shouting, no fear mongering. Word and Sacrament. Short sermons. The world doesn’t come to an end if you miss a Sunday or two or six. You will be respected and treated like an adult. No membership covenants to sign. A few of things you might have to get used to: women in real leadership positions, gay folks in the pews and pulpits, and no fog machines. Try it, you just might be surprised.

The the nearest Episcopal Church wasn’t 20 miles away. I would be there.

1. Emphasis on helping fulfill the leadership’s vision of ministry (always struck me as rather arrogant–any leadership vision different than a desire to see Christ formed in His people).

2. Lack of conversational engagement with with congregation members–lack of value for the opinions and concerns of others.

3. A belief that authority derives from position, rather than trust.

Why I am (currently) a done:

1. Too much cognitive dissonance and not enough room for discussion and/or. In other words, covert pressure to ‘toe the party line’. I worked for a spiritually abusive evangelical organization in Japan for about 2 years. Part of the fallout, for me, was that I had serious doubts (still do, actually; 5 years later, they aren’t resolved) about God’s character. In other words, if I was in Japan to love and serve people as Jesus did, then how could the people I was working with–who also ostensibly wanted the same things–be cruel, and how could God let it happen? I returned to the U.S. wanting to work out my issues, and knowing that I needed space to do so. Instead, I found that no one wanted to hear stories of bad experiences overseas, and raising questions about God’s character, or any aspect of “settled doctrine” was quickly shut down.
2. I’m a PhD candidate, I’m single, and I’m female. There’s no place for me in evangelical churches. I’m too well-educated, I’m not typically feminine, I’m not married, and I don’t have kids. There is literally no place for me in the evangelical world. I think too much, I ask too many questions, and I can’t stand Bible studies about homemaking, hospitality, and being a “Godly woman”. Even if I wanted to go to a women’s Bible study (which, gag me), I couldn’t, because they meet at 10 a.m. on Wednesday mornings. And I work. To be clear, my issue here isn’t so much explicit teaching–although I do take issue with complementarian teaching and the abuse of women more generally–it’s the cultural expectations of women that are present in most evangelical churches. The last church I was at, I was the only single woman over 25. Married woman without children had jobs, not careers, and they quit them if/when they had their first kid. Women with kids stayed home with them, and the only ones who didn’t either homeschool their kids or send them to a Christian school were the pastor and his wife. This was in Lubbock, TX. I can’t think of a more conservative public school district….(To be clear: I liked the pastor and his wife a lot. They were a big part of why I stayed at this church for as long as I did).
3. The us vs. them mentality. (See above re: schooling). The world is not inherently evil, and the church is not inherently good. The desire to shelter in the church started to irk me, especially because it was often coupled with an inability to examine ourselves for our own issues.
4. Biblicism. I saw too many examples of bad hermeneutics being used to justify bad behavior. This shook my confidence in the authority of the Bible, and in the ability of Christians to interpret it well. Oddly, living overseas planted the seeds for this one; we spent a lot of time talking about how to remove our own cultural blinders when approaching the Bible, and debating whether that was possible. This made me hyper-aware of uniquely American interpretations when I returned to the U.S., and made me doubt that we could reliably interpret the Bible. Then I read Christian Smith’s book “The Bible Made Impossible.” That pretty much brought down then entire system.
5. Related to (1-4) above: After a while, everything came crashing down, and I had to reexamine everything I believed about Christianity, God, Jesus, etc. I couldn’t do this and go to church. This happened about the time I moved to MI for my PhD, and I couldn’t look for a church and deal with my doubts. I spent three Sundays visiting churches, telling my inner cynic to shut up, and feeling awkward the entire time. The fourth Sunday, I decided it wasn’t worth fighting that battle every week, and that I stopped making myself try. That was three years ago.
6. I don’t think church should be a rock concert, and it’s hard to find a place where there’s room for pain, doubts, and questions. I don’t have a lot of patience for the upbeat messages that I’ve heard in the churches I’ve visited in the past couple of years. Granted, this is a small sample size, but sermons have largely focused on how God has delivered or provided, with little attention to what happens if God is silent, or if life is hard. This feels like a bait-and-switch to me, and I don’t have a lot of patience for it.

Why I would consider returning:
1. I miss liturgy (so I’d look at Anglican or Lutheran churches).
2. I’ll move again in about a year; it might be a way to meet people (but I’m not holding my breath).
3. I miss ‘fellowship’: having friends who are Christians and with whom I can talk about faith (and doubts). Not sure that church is the place to find this, though.
4. God has a sense of humor or something, and oddly for academia, most of my friends at school/work are Christians. They’ve given me hope that it might be possible for me to make my peace with American churches. Maybe.

Beakerj wrote:

If I could be certain this wasn’t true, things would change for me.

I’ve spent hours struggling with reformed theology and (pseudo?) calvinism – though now a long time ago. In my opinion, humble or not, what you are objecting to is indeed a caricature of biblical teaching. It is an accurate reflection of some of the truth of the NT, but not all of it.

So many of these comments are a love song and a lament. So many of us hurting, hungry, marginalized, used and discarded by the churches where we served and worshipped. SO MANY OF US. Lord, have mercy.

A couple of years ago, I did an informal survey of church members over 40 with their local church, and heard this level of sorrow from respondents. As a follow up, I surveyed church leaders to find out about what their experience was with older members. While some appreciated the maturity (and financial giving!) of their older members, too many of the 80+ pastors who responded viewed their more mature members as whiny, obstructionist anchors who got in the way of The Vision Of The Church. Are we surprised that so many leave church schlepping baggage and insisting they’re done?

Pastors, if you’re reading this thread (and I suspect some of you are!), what are you hearing when you read these words of hurt and pain from people who really love Jesus and want to follow him?

Just have to say, that is one of my favorite PTX songs. “Don’t you worry, don’t you worry child. Heaven’s got a plan for you.” This is a perfect conversation to include it.

I’ve never posted here before.

I left three churches because of the reasons listed. I also worked for a HUGE Christian ministry and left for many of the reasons you listed that would apply to a business as well as a church.

I’m going to merge all of my experiences with the churches and the ministry to answer your question. Please know that my experiences are based on being heavily involved with the churches we attended, we weren’t just attendees. In two instances we were deeply involved from day one of the church plants. Some of these things aren’t as serious as others have experienced. But taken as a “big picture” perhaps some could understand our reasons for being so discouraged by organized religion.

This is a blanket statement but it best describes how I feel: there is virtually no discernment left in churches and ministries. People follow the herd led by the pastor, the elders, and the inner circle, and no longer think for themselves on church matters, on politics, etc. If you don’t agree with everything they stand for, you’re labeled and ridiculed and eventually shunned.

And while there is no discernment and people are sheep, the leaders attempt to run the church or ministry like a business. That often does not work very well.

Why I am currently a Done or Why I might become a Done:

Authoritarian leadership:
One pastor kept a “file” on elders and church staff to use against them when needed. Told us that if we didn’t like his style, we could leave. At the ministry I worked for, those at the top were incredibly elitist and people had to virtually beg for an “audience” even for important matters. One person I worked for called her staff “slaves” who must be obedient to the master. This boss made fun of people in front of others, ridiculed people for their weight and for being compassionate toward co-workers. She was moved around the ministry every few years when she got in trouble for her behavior, instead of being fired or at least disciplined.

Too much emphasis on political issues (which ones)
Oh yes. One church had a hate-filled, fear mongering “seminar” on Islam. They had politicians sit in the front row and introduced them during the service. Talked more about politics than Jesus. Assumed everyone was on the same page politically. Long-time inner circle church members sent out e-mails during Presidential campaigns persuading members to vote for so-and-so. No one was able to disagree without being shamed in public.

Pastor doesn’t know my name after x years:
Two out of three pastors knew virtually nothing about many of the members, only knew the inner circle. I tried to see my pastor to counsel with him about a niece who was getting into some bad spiritual things (Satanism) and was told that he only sees people who need to be saved.

Church money being spent on buildings, etc.:
Emphasis on building programs, going into debt to expand facility needlessly. Thinking that making the building a “showplace” would attract people.
A huge amount of money spent to lavishly entertain the largest donors of the Christian ministry while lamenting about their budget to the employees.

No one talks to me:
Not exactly. More like: there are cliques, and don’t you dare try to join them unless you are invited. Stay within your own circles – i.e. within your financial level, or whether you are on staff or worship/drama team.

Too much emphasis on giving:
Tacky public displays of giving. Making way too much of tithing. Emphasizing tithing much too often.

Music:
Too much performing, not enough worshipping. Making the order of service, the music, drama, lights, stage props etc. the focus of Sunday morning.

Judgmental members:
During my time working at a Christian ministry I was judged for going through a painful divorce. I was told I was going to hell if I divorced. People watched me outside of work and gossiped about me. Someone reported to the upper management that I was having an affair. (not true.)

In addition:
Not being allowed to have a Sunday School class weekend retreat extend into Sunday morning because the Sunday attendance at the church would be reduced and people would notice.

Being yelled at by the pastor because the service (performance?) wasn’t perfect.

Being called “you” by the worship team for years while volunteering to help set up prior to service.

Pastor insisted we go into debt soon after new building was finished because having two services was “too stressful.” Better to go into debt to expand building for one service.

Being told we were being divisive for questioning their “flavor” of theology. Pastor denying he preached something, when it was on audio. He lied.

Our Sunday school teacher begged to be accountable to elders or pastor because he was teaching, and was told “nobody has time for that.”

Being told not to reveal personal things during morning communal prayer at Christian ministry because people could use that information against us.

Never being contacted by elders after leaving a church where we were members/faithful volunteers/financial supporters for 10 years.

I know that some of these things seem small and perhaps petty compared to some folks horrible experiences, but years of these smaller issues have worn us down and discouraged us. We have absolutely no desire to attend another church any time soon. I think we are done. Of course, we miss in-person fellowship, worship and teaching but we are too burned out by “Christians” to get involved again. Perhaps someday we will find a church and be quiet attenders. But becoming members and volunteering in the ministries or joining small groups is probably never going to happen again.

Why I am a Done:

1. Secondary issues being stressed – check. If you’re not baptized in the Holy Ghost and baptized in Jesus’ name (not the “titles”) you’re going to hell. (Of course, those who believe this don’t see it as secondary at all.)

2. Authoritarian leadership – check. My husband was disfellowshipped when he sought advice outside the cult for how to handle his business financial crisis.

3. Too much emphasis on judging outsiders – check. Where to start? Anyone who didn’t uphold our holiness standards was subject to judgement. Also any woman who was too independent must be “wearing the pants” in that family.

4. Mishandling of child sex abuse – check. They made the news for this, though there are many stories that will never be told.

5. Church money being spent on buildings, etc.instead of on ______ – check. I would say the money was not only spent on buildings, but on new cars, vacations, electronics, and other “stuff” instead of being spent to truly help the neediest in our midst. And if one of the ministers had a medical need in their family, the church was asked for a special donation. This didn’t happen for the rest of the lowlife pewpeons.

6. To much emphasis on giving – check. Not just monetarily giving, but giving of time. I used to “volunteer” 20 hours a week on the cult’s literature ministry after I’d already put in a 40 hour work week. We were also expected to be at 3 services a week which added up to a combined total of 10 hours.

7. Judgmental members – check. Personally, I think the church has the “world” beat hands down on this one.

8. Church discipline/Church abuse – check. (See number 2.)

9. Science was denigrated – check. I knew someone who “treated” her cancer with vitamin C injections. She died.

Not “Done” with church, but I walked out of a prominent evangelical ministry 2 years ago:

1) “Family” politics. Most of their media switched from evangelism to “family” training years ago. Talk was about family. Books and interviews were assuming everyone being reached had two kids in the suburbs and mom either was home all day or wanted to be home all day. Guess where this left anyone under 20, anyone over 60, or anyone in some stage of singleness?

2) The Leadership cult. Christianity Today wrote a prophetic piece a few years back about the obsession in evangelicalism with being a “leader.” Apparently few listened. We had Seminars, books, interviews with megapastors, webinars, inspirational posters. Biblical stories about OT prophets and NT disciples were turned into business leadership principles. Sermons were forwarded to us about leadership, and that’s the message we started spreading. Discipleship wasn’t an issue anymore. Even today, the phrase “Servant-Leader” sends me into a rage…maybe because:

3) Leadership was manipulative. Managers came and went, people were fired with no warning, and donors were given weak answers when they asked what was happening. When donations plunged after a very public removal of a prominent spokesman, 6 people were let go in response. When my “position was removed” I was threatened with a written warning for asking too many questions. (and just to defy stereotypes: The supervisor who abused their position over me to take over projects they wanted? A diehard Democrat with Obama stickers everywhere. It takes all kinds.)

Good people still work there. People not in leadership kept up relations with World Vision after the big scandal last year. I had workers there offer to find me new jobs. Others resigned later on after they couldn’t take it anymore. Former workers wondered how I kept on so long.

Again, I never left church (in fact, they all stopped and prayed for me, tried to find jobs for me, sent me food), but I am going to be VERY slow to work at an evangelical ministry again without doing research on their leadership.

Jazmin wrote:

4. Realized most people were pretending. Not so much because they were hypocrites, but because it was safer than being eaten alive by the pastor.

Oh, yes. My BIL called this “flying under the radar.” Results in very shallow relationships.

Michelle Van Loon wrote:

astors, if you’re reading this thread (and I suspect some of you are!), what are you hearing when you read these words of hurt and pain from people who really love Jesus and want to follow him?

I agree and would add that the vocal ones aren’t the only ones feeling this way. I was a good authority follower and knew I “should never question god’s man.” But when the leader moves people around in “his” ministry like pawns, they all to some degree resent it. They may think they are sinning by resenting it, so they will stay humble and quiet. Then one day, they will abruptly disappear from the fellowship, never to be seen again.

@ Bilbo Skaggins:
Positron=position

These comments make me laugh and cry. I laugh when reading about the long and boring sermons. I grew up in a small Texas town and if the Cowboys played at noon, we better be out the door at 11:50. I remember a few times a new preacher had to be told the rules.

I cry when I read about people not being supported in time of need. That was never a problem, and in fact there were times of too much assistance.

I would add one other reason to stay away from some of the churches: Too much focus on the angry God of the Old Testament. What happened to preaching the Good News of the New Testament? Why so much focus on anger and punishment instead of love and forgiveness?

The Nightowl wrote:

I’ve been dragged out my wheelchair or out of a church pew by well meaning, but ignorant people who are convinced they can heal me. (I now push the chair 2 isles away from me if I go) I’ve been accused of being deceived or possessed or just plain “in sin” because I haven’t walked.

Ugh! I’ve seen people praying grab the target by the arms and force them to jump just to make it appear that something was happening. I hate this stuff.
Now that I’ve been removed from it for a few years I can suggest pretending to be slain in the Spirit and watch those around you have paroxysms of ecstatic prayer. It’s really sad to attend a church to find out you’re the sideshow.

Note from Moderator:  We already have a 'Nancy', so we have changed the name of this commenter to 'Nancy2' so no one gets confused with which Nancy is commenting.

****************

I’m just about “done”. I only go because of my husband. By standard defn., most SBC churches are not complementarian — they are patriarchal. I have been a member of SBC affiliated churches since 1978. They have men’s meetings and men’s rallies. Nothing for women.

I have a degree in mathematics, and I used to teach grades 7-12. Because of health issues, I had to stop teaching full-time. While my husband was enrolled at a Bible college, I took 2 courses. Then I quit because I realized what a total waste it was for me to do that.

At our previous church, I taught various ages at vbs, I taught grades 2-5 on Wed. nights, and I taught grades 4-7 in Sunday school. All classes were mixed gender. Some of the men chided me because they believed it inappropriate for a woman to teach boys, but none of the men would teach them!

Anyway, my husband became discontent at that church, so we moved to another church. Women are not allowed to speak in adult Sunday school classes; women are not allowed to speak at business meetings; but, a nine year old boy can preach from the pulpit! Men teach the boys and women teach the girls.

A couple of months back I wrote up a blog post at my blog that dealt with my experience with evangelical churches in the Washington, D.C. area. Two that people will recognize here are McLean Presbyterian and Crossway Evangelical Free in Manassas. This is my experience at showing up and church after church after church. I was in a full blown faith crisis and considered myself agnostic.

While I dealt with many doubts I had one in particular that destroyed my faith. Why does a loving God allow evil? None of the churches could engage me intellectually.

https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/05/22/how-to-respond-to-a-faith-crisis-an-agnostic-tries-the-church-and-learns-the-church-cannot-help/

During my faith crisis I was being invited to a Sovereign Grace church called Redeemer Arlington. I couldn’t believe what I was being invited to when I started researching SGM online. It led to fights between me and a 32 year old Air Force Captain and graduate from the Air Force Academy that I didn’t think were possible. In my case it also contributed to my faith crisis. How you ask?

Being an agnostic speaking about the problem of evil and asking the question, “Why does a loving God allow a 3 year old to be sexually abused?” and then being invited to a denomination that was engaged in covering up child sex abuse. Go figure!

https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/05/30/how-to-respond-to-a-faith-crisis-being-involved-in-a-church-that-is-feeding-the-crisis-or-justifying-atheism/

Megan wrote:

I don’t have a lot of patience for the upbeat messages that I’ve heard in the churches I’ve visited in the past couple of years. Granted, this is a small sample size, but sermons have largely focused on how God has delivered or provided, with little attention to what happens if God is silent, or if life is hard. This feels like a bait-and-switch to me, and I don’t have a lot of patience for it.

I completely agree.

In person or on Christian TV shows I watch, Christians only present the positive, happy endings. They seldom to never do interviews with, or stories about, Christians who did not get their needs met, or who were not provided for, or who were not healed or delivered.

I’ve known Christians who prayed for decades for one thing or another, healing or whatever, and never received it. This is a topic that is hardly ever addressed by Christians in or out of churches.

I think Christians really need to help people get through times when God is seemingly turning a deaf ear to their problems / prayers and not helping or not providing. Many Christians are very reluctant to do this, though.

What do you do if you have prayed to God for many years for “X” (whatever X may be) and God is silent and not moving on your behalf? Churches don’t want to touch this.

@ Nancy:

Welcome, Nancy. There is another Nancy who comments here. Would you mind putting a number after your name so we don’t get the two of you mixed up? I did that for awhile as their was another Bridget before me.

I am sorry that you find yourself in the same fix as soon many of us.

I refuse to do anything at church anymore. Backbone, brains, and education are worthless if you don’t literally have a pair of balls, too. Most churches are run by men, for men. Women are marginalized and kept on the outer peripheries. My husband’s relentless dedication to church combined with his completely shutting me out of all decisions, including decisions that directly affected me, almost led us to divorce court. We are working to save our marriage, so I only attend church to keep my husband happy.

*There are men at our church who make fun of my husband because I usually drive when we go somewhere in my car.
*There are men who make remarks about how women are not allowed to usurp the men’s authority every chance they get.
*Last Sunday, our pastor (a truly wonderful man who is leaving, btw) remarked that we had great teachers in church … Another man said, “Don’t forget about the women.”
*Last night, a man joked that there won’t be any women in heaven because Rev. 8:1 says there will be silence for half an hour. Hardy-har-har. He sooo funny!
I can’t decide whether I should make a fashion statement by wearing a burka to church, or a collar and a leash!

The last “Nancy” comment was me “Nancy 2”. I was continuing my comment. Sorry — these buttons on my iPad are so small!

@ Daisy:

I was aware of it, but now I have it in my favorites with TWW. Thanks!

Daisy wrote:

This is from 2014:
“Singles now outnumber married people in America”
http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-09-14/singles-now-outnumber-married-people-america-and-thats-good-thing

Here’s the money quote:

“They have a chance for solitude, and kind of a productive solitude. We live in this moment of incredible hyper-connection and we’re always engaged with social life through social media. When you live alone, you have a little oasis in your apartment.”

When sex is the only interaction that requires Meatspace instead of being done over 24/7/365 Social Media(TM), what other ways are there of getting away from that “hyper-connection”? You can withdraw, unplug, and do something that isn’t run-around-in-circles-screaming Urgent and/or requiring instantaneous online reply.

@ Dave:

Love your comment, Dave!

Daisy wrote:

Unless I am mistaken, you are one of the guys on past threads who has defended gender complementarianism?

You raise a fair point, and without rehearsing all the arguments about this yet again would offer the following comments:

The wifely ‘submission’ or respect has it’s counterpart or complement in the duties laid upon the husband. These are agape love for the wife, giving, nourishing, cherishing, not to be harsh but bestow honour etc. This gives some shape to the meaning of being ‘head’.

Now from what I have read on here, complementarianism means the counterpart to wifely submission is husbandly authority. He is in charge, it’s his job to lead; not only so, but he is the sole authority in the relationship, he makes all the decisions.

Now I think you would agree my version and the version being complained about on here are not quite the same. I know devotees of wifely submission and husbandly authority often use the same words as my version as a cover for him lording it over her. They talk about love, but practice authoritarianism (“servant-leader”).

Now I personally haven’t really seen the abuse of this teaching. It’s either been ignored or rejected outright, or amongst Spirit-filled believers who take the bible seriously on this that I have known they have tried to sensibly work out who is responsible for what in the marriage. Not ignored it or fought against it, nor forced it to extremes that go beyond the general principles laid down in the text itself.

If this really is damaging people, then it’s not the teaching laid down in the NT that is to blame, but an abuse or distortion of it. I don’t doubt this happens. The teaching in the NT, even if strange to our ears, is there for our blessing, and that’s what ought to happen if it is correctly understood and put into practice.

Dang! The marquee says 144 comments (12^2) on this thread and past the 800 mark on the other. It really does say a lot about what’s goin’ on out here.

John wrote:

I’m politically moderate to liberal. That’s as good as being a rank pagan in a lot of people’s books.

You’re right. I’ve even heard a “christian” parent say that for their kid to date or marry a Democrat would be the equivalent of being “unequally yoked.” I kid you not.

@ Patrice:
You’ve put it very well. These are some of the reasons I’m struggling right now.

@ Victorious:
Thank you!

@ refugee:
Guess I should add, “unfaithful” in my case also means I’m questioning everything I’ve been taught over my lifetime in various churches. I can’t even call myself a christian — the word has too much baggage. What do I believe in? Anything? Who do I believe in? (certainly not myself, or other people. Christ?) I honestly couldn’t tell you at this point.

refugee wrote:

I can’t even call myself a christian — the word has too much baggage.

I usually just refer to myself as a believer.

I didn’t comment on the first post, but as I began to read through the comments (I couldn’t get through them all; the response was crazy!), I found myself nodding my head over and over and over again. So…here is just a sliver of my story and journey toward “done-ness”…

•Too much emphasis on political issues (which ones) I am tired of American politics being so central in much of American Church life. The same polarization we see in our political system lives and breathes in the church. Perhaps because I have been around it more, the Evangelical’s unholy alliance with the Republican Party is particularly odious to me. The way in which political issues are discussed in these circles misses the fact that real people with real lives and real struggles exist behind the rhetoric; and much of the rhetoric turns those people away from the Gospel, not toward it. This is especially true right now, as we wait for the decision to be handed down about Same Sex marriage.

•Too much emphasis on judging outsiders – this piggybacks on my comments above regarding politics. We love to tell the heathens they are being heathens while we continue on with our own sinful shenanigans. When Paul was scolding the Corinthians about their handling of a man who was having an affair with his step mother, he did not fault them for their failure to point out how unbelievers act like unbelievers. He stated: “ I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.” (1 Corinthians 5:9-11 NIV) When issues of sin by our so-called leaders are forced into the public, the concern is more about saving face than being faithful to God.

•Mishandling of child sex abuse – the issue related to this topic is too painful for me to even discuss.

•Mishandling of domestic violence – for me, this one is directly tied to church discipline/church abuse. I watched a church totally destroy a friend whose husband was mentally, verbally and physically abusive to her. She was told by the church that it was because she was not being “submissive enough”. They went to “marriage counseling” at the church (a major megachurch in the near Northwest Suburbs of Chicago) for six of their eight years of marriage. During that time, his behavior became worse and worse; he broke one promise after another and never followed through on the counsel he was being given. When she started realizing the damage being done not only to herself, but also their children, she left. He stalked her, had members of his small group stalk her to remind her that she was “sinning” for leaving and wanting divorce. When the divorce was finalized, the church excommunicated her for committing the sin of divorce without seeking reconciliation (really???) and approval from the church (this is the part of the story where I lose my ability to refrain from cursing). Meanwhile, he was been elevated to leadership in the church as one of the leaders of their Divorce Care ministry. My friend will not darken the door of a church right now. Her heart has been completely shattered by her ex-husband’s abuse and the betrayal of her church. And I have run out of ways to try to convince her otherwise; I’m trying to convince myself…

•Church money being spent on buildings, etc.instead of on ______ (fill in the blank) – my former church launched a building campaign a year and half ago. A number of things about this campaign rubbed me the wrong way. First, their main motivation was to get more people into the church by building out the children’s ministry wing to appeal to young families in the community. The problem with that? There is nothing in place to care for the people that are already there. Unless you have been there for a while and have your “clique” – or have children – you are disconnected. Trying to get connected is difficult, again, unless you have kids. When every sermon, no matter the topic, began circling back somehow to giving to the building fund, reminding us of the debt we were in to go “all in” for God, I couldn’t go any longer. Especially when I knew of more couples than I cared to count that were on the verge of falling apart; children who were dealing with painful issues with no one to talk them through it; a youth ministry that was more about light shows and fun than training our children the basics of the faith. I left.

•I feel like my talents are ignored – I am a childless, single middle aged Black woman with teaching, preaching and pastoring gifts. I have theological training. And I feel invisible unless something happens in the country that is about race – then I’m the spokesperson for every Black person in America. Or, if a group of women get together and decide to make me their matchmaking project because it is such a tragedy that I’m not yet married. My pastoring gifts are not affirmed unless they are directly applied to women and children. I feel minimized and misunderstood.

I am not yet done. Much of the reason I hold on is guilt. I feel like I would be a bad Christian if I bolted from church. But my soul is weary.

Why we were almost, ” dones “:

* Church leadership hijacked.( Constitution changed from congregational polity, to elder board.)
* Bad theology introduced. ( Calvinism )
* Women removed from all boards, dismissed as deacons)
* Church finances hidden from congregation.
* Music ( all contemporary, loud, emphasis on talents of “praise ” team.
* Elderly congregants patronized, dismissed.

We didn’t go to church for a while, we felt spent, discouraged, purged.
We started to make the rounds visiting churches and found one where:

* Good teaching, non emphasis on Reformed, or Calvinistic doctrine.
* Congregational polity. Women elected to boards, as deacons.
* Finacial accountability.
* Joyful congregational singing, both contemporary and hymns. Praise team leads but does not dominate the congregation.
* Good fellowship among all age groups, singles, married, elderly, etc. Everyone is a necessary part of the congregation.

@ Deb:

Re: Nancy and Nancy2

I can live with that, but I was rather considering ‘okrapod’ as a generic term for my name change. You may know about the okrapod terminology problem but others may not. I take no responsibility for the fact that the following may sound like nonsense, given my age related mental disabilities.

In searching out the definitions and implications of the word Okrapod one might assume that it was a small extinct life form whose skeletal remains are found in some forms of sedimentary rock.

Or one might think that the word okrapod was used for a small group of bottom dwelling creatures found in stagnant pond water in North Dakota. Checking the protected species lists might be enlightening.

Okrapod sounds appropriate for the the name of a brain destroying parasite transmitted by mosquitos.

Mostly the word seems like a perfect fit for a cuttting edge multipurpose personal robot which is programmed to wait in line for tickets mostly.

These ideas would all be mistaken, though, because no consideration has been given to the use of the word in the original language and the whole issue of the cultural context in which it was first used has been ignored. That is sloppy thinking to say the least.

In the meantime okrapod is something one chops and throws in gumbo or else cross cuts, dips in batter and fries in hot oil.

But I can live with whatever. The next time, though, I am going with okrapod.

I’ve read through the 800+ comments in the 1st thread, and now I’ve read through the 150+ comments in this one.

Many (women?) have commented that at least part of the reason they are DONES (although some seem to be more GONES) is that they felt their spiritual gifts were not allowed to be expressed.

Could I ask for more specifics? What spiritual gifts did you have that weren’t either recognized or allowed to be used? And how could those gifts have been used if the church structure and/or theology were different? And if you’re a DONE, how are you employing those spiritual gifts now outside of the institutional church?

Boyd wrote:

I’ve read through the 800+ comments in the 1st thread, and now I’ve read through the 150+ comments in this one.
Many (women?) have commented that at least part of the reason they are DONES (although some seem to be more GONES) is that they felt their spiritual gifts were not allowed to be expressed.
Could I ask for more specifics? What spiritual gifts did you have that weren’t either recognized or allowed to be used? And how could those gifts have been used if the church structure and/or theology were different? And if you’re a DONE, how are you employing those spiritual gifts now outside of the institutional church?

Boyd, go back and re-read the comments. You are missing the forest for the trees.

Boyd wrote:

Many (women?) have commented that at least part of the reason they are DONES (although some seem to be more GONES) is that they felt their spiritual gifts were not allowed to be expressed.

I hope I am not misreading your comment because I’ve been unclear many times. The part of your comment that grabbed me in the quoted portion of your comment is “they felt.” I sincerely hope that you were not diminishing the marginalization of women that is elevated to Gospel truth in the Gospel Glitterati churches and others.

Actually, it is a fact that the spiritual gifts of women are disallowed expression and exercise. The only way around that is to assume that the Holy Spirit does not gift women to teach people besides females and male children up to some magical age where it then becomes sinful.

Now, let’s imagine a human body with all of its functions operating at less than 50%. How healthy would that body be? For how long would that body live?

Boyd wrote:

I’ve read through the 800+ comments in the 1st thread, and now I’ve read through the 150+ comments in this one.

Many (women?) have commented that at least part of the reason they are DONES (although some seem to be more GONES) is that they felt their spiritual gifts were not allowed to be expressed.

Could I ask for more specifics? What spiritual gifts did you have that weren’t either recognized or allowed to be used? And how could those gifts have been used if the church structure and/or theology were different? And if you’re a DONE, how are you employing those spiritual gifts now outside of the institutional church?

I don’t think I mentioned this in the other thread when I wrote about my experiences, but it is significant for me. I spent a few years in campus ministry with InterVaristy where women were not limited in any way, shape or form. I was able to utilize my gifts of teaching, leadership and discernment. Once you experience the Holy Spirit working through you, it’s very difficult to be relegated to a second class citizen in the church and told you couldn’t possible have those gifts because you are a woman.

We were in an Evangelical Covenant church for a bit where I taught a mixed SS class and I did really enjoy that. (They ordain women so women are free to serve.) Otherwise, opportunities have been pretty much non-existent. At one Baptist church where we were members, I sat through totally ungifted men teaching SS because they were men. I was told I would never be allowed to teach the class because I was a woman, even if I was gifted and experienced. The leader of the class (a seminary trained deacon, no less) wouldn’t even discuss the issue with my husband and me because the issue was “too divisive.”

I mentioned before that I will not take my eight year old daughter to a complementarian church because I want her to see gifted women involved in the church. I believe it is critically important for her to see women freely exercising their spiritual gifts. There is no way I’m taking her to a church where the men do everything and the women aren’t even allowed to read the Scriptures during the service. (This is what John Piper teaches so you can imagine how that has filtered into many churches.)

It’s funny you asked this question because last week I mentioned in a note to a Christian friend that part of the discouragement I feel at times lately is that I’m a leader with no one to lead. I’ve been a leader since middle school. I don’t even seek it out. It seeks me out. I’m the one who ends up the jury foreman, organization president, etc. It’s clearly how I’m wired and people pick up on it.

I use my gifts now online with my websites. I try to encourage others with my writing and sharing information that I hope Christ uses to set people free.

I would give up my Done-ness in a heartbeat if there was somewhere healthy for our family. But if I have to choose between exposing my daughter to what I believe are damaging teachings about women and not being in a church building each week… I choose following Christ outside of the institutional church every time.

Bilbo Skaggins wrote:

Youth activities constantly revolving around playing, watching, or talking sports.

Just like High School.

I experienced something similar during my Christian Singles fiasco. The vast majority of Social Events they did were Dances. Just like High School. (I don’t know about their High School careers, but mine brought me the closest to suicide I’ve ever been in my life. Quite a distance between the Alpha Male and Omega Male.)

I got out of High School in 1973. Why did they keep trying to pull me back into it? Did Edward Cullen (sparkle sparkle) put the bite on them so they can stay in High School forever just like him? Is Eternity going to be a never-ending compulsory High School as well as never-ending compulsory Bible Study?

By the way I want to clarify “being stuck in the nursery” is NOT being stuck for some who love to be with little ones. That is a precious place to be if you were called to be there. So forgive me if that sounded crass.

Eagle wrote:

Pastors who feel a sense of entitlement…

I’m not a done, yet, but this one rings true for me. Pastors are so careful not to burn out that they don’t give more than a 40-hour week to the church. Meanwhile, the people in the pews put in their hours at the job, and are asked to donate ($ and) time to the church. I guess it’s no biggie if I burn out…

We should all be in this together, as laborers together. If the people are asked to volunteer their time, then the pastor also needs to volunteer above and beyond the regular working week.

– The church becoming more and more closed, the theology more fundamentalist, with biblical literalism, when I was moving in the opposite direction.
– Simplistic non-answers to real questions.

@ K.D.:
I am actually considering the Episcopal church and will be visiting one this weekend. I need the stability and reassurance of the liturgy. And I need to receive communion – something the most recent church I was attending only does once a quarter or so…my spirit is parched.

@ I am almost done:
Weekly communion is nice! More than “nice” – quite profound, and so vety different than the emphases in the evangelical world.

I wish you all the bedt in your search. Much depends on the individual parish, too, so if the 1st one serms not right, don’t throw in the towel.

@ Nancy2:
I would add to that comment: a woman can have spiritual gifts in some churches as long as they only apply to other women or children. Or, if they are gifts like “hospitality”, or “faith”…you can’t have a gift that might usurp male authority. And if you say you do, you have misunderstood God and your own abilities. This is what I’ve encountered.

@ I am almost done:
Good thst you’re heading toward TEC.

numo wrote:

@ Sallie Borrink:
Perhaps you would fit better in an entirely different kind of church than ehat you’re used to, in a denom that ordains women. But i would take time on that, to thoroughly explore posdible options, lots of time. (I am Lutheran, from a synod that ordains women, but by no means do i think that is THE place – so much depends on the individual parish, for starters.)

The problem is that I’m more toward the conservative end of the spectrum in many ways so I wouldn’t fit in most denominations that ordain woman.

@ Bridget:
Women aren’t allowed to have good ideas, either. That drove me nuts when I was in the Missouri Synod Lutheran church. I’d say something and receive glazed politeness; a man would say it later to enthusiastic reception.

A woman with good ideas challenges the principle that females always support/follow and are not given directional gifts. So when it happens, it is simply does not compute.

@ Patrice:
Well, the LCMS id *not* the synod for you, ot mr, or most of the rest of us!

numo wrote:

Depends on whose roof you’re under, re. gifts. I’m not saying there are any perfect places; rather, that that is not true of all denominations or all individual churches.

Yeah, numo, I’ve decided to commit to trying the mainlines, after I’ve resettled. I now know where there is an episcopal, united methodist (where a couple of my friends go), and Friends. I will also search out your Lutheran denom, which I’m sure is around, too.

I will be patient and slow. Don’t need much: just want to worship God with others, have communion sometimes, and sing.

@ Patrice:
Just fyi, the Friends do not practice communion, or at least, most don’t. And i can’t imagine singingmin a meeting, though i guess some do, these days.

Sallie Borrink wrote:

The problem is that I’m more toward the conservative end of the spectrum in many ways so I wouldn’t fit in most denominations that ordain woman.

Sallie – I have had this same struggle as I consider how to approach my church search going forward. I agree with numo – there is a spectrum in every denomination. After much prayer and consideration, I have come to conclusion that in this season, I am more in need of the dependence upon established liturgy that rehearses the Gospel story each week than anything else. That is what is so appealing to me about TEC, and even ELCA. Before I declare myself “done”, I have to try every conceivable possibility. That said, ultimately it is a decision only an individual can make within their relationship with the Lord. Be encouraged as you continue on your journey, sister.

@ numo:
Thanks numo – your encouragement is a breath of fresh air to my soul today. 🙂

@ Patrice:
I get the love of the windows, but as for the rest… not to slam all of yhe LCMS, as dome are not like the stereotype at all. Still, no women ministers…

Bilbo Skaggins wrote:

I am a (hopefully) temporary done. Right or wrong, here are my reasons. I’ll put the long version in parenthesis for those who want only the short version.
1. 30+ years serving in an authoritarian church (my volunteer time had reached an average of 15 hours a week. When I told leadership I was tired and needed a break I was rebuked in several ways: that I should be refreshing myself in the Lord, that I should give up on my “Little House on the Prairie” dream for my family–it will never happen, I should be willing to be used anywhere the leaders needed me…. The leadership also didn’t give two hoots that I work at a utility company and spent many sleepless nights restoring power, only to drag myself to church because they “depended on me” so much.
2. Bad doctrine (I have searched the scriptures for several doctrines that I was taught and can’t find them when reading in context. I am starting to see that bad doctrine can lead to bad behavior, especially for leadership)
3. Relevance (I love all music, so I don’t really care about the style, per se. But that said, I am tired of hearing sports illustrations, watching movie clips, hearing messages from said movie clips instead of scripture. I asked my current pastor [new church for me] about some of the doctrines and he admitted that he should be teaching them from the pulpit, however, lots of people wouldn’t understand or go for that type of message, so he keeps it light. Of course, I should give up another night for small group and learn deeper stuff. From published books within the evangelical industrial complex. Also, I believe “relevance” has become more like a pep rally for the beautiful people than like a plea for human souls to come to Christ. Don’t believe me, look at who is on stage. [not sour grapes here, I was one of the people on stage)
4. Rick Warren. (He has almost single-handedly caused evangelicals to trade the gospel for relevance, thus, making church attendance irrelevant)
5. Independent (my 30+ years were spent in a Fundamental Independent Baptist Church. They bragged about not having to answer to a larger fellowship, so they were able to avoid large denominational pitfalls such as liberal politics, women in the pulpit, women running the church, homosexuality, and keeping the money at home. They were also able to follow the examples of any leader they wanted. They chose Rick Warren)
6. Fundamental (in their independence and in their search for the relevant, they somehow remained fundamentalists and took people to the woodshed from time to time. I saw several young unmarried mothers leave the church as well as single women. It was apparently a tough place to be “loved”)
7. Salvation is free to all who repent. But you’d better live right and stop sinning or you’ll never be sanctified. (Need I say more?)

Re: 6 & 7 Don’t forget, if it’s the pastor caught sinning, we all need to forgive & move on! 😛

I am almost done wrote:

@ K.D.:
I am actually considering the Episcopal church and will be visiting one this weekend. I need the stability and reassurance of the liturgy. And I need to receive communion – something the most recent church I was attending only does once a quarter or so…my spirit is parched.

My church does the quarterly thing. Some have asked for more. I know my pastor means well, but he put the communion off to the side and it is now self-serve. I never partake. It is just crackers and juice over there. But it sort of shows how far we have strayed from the early church. Most of our needs have found self-serve solutions (do your own bible study, get your own communion, listen to your own favorite music at home, find your own meat in the scripture). What’s next, self- baptism? Lol. It all goes along with what I have seen as a law/works based religion.

Sallie Borrink wrote:

The problem is that I’m more toward the conservative end of the spectrum in many ways so I wouldn’t fit in most denominations that ordain woman.

Yes, that is a huge issue for me and Gramp3, too. Having a male or female pastor/elder is not the problem. It is the reason why only males can teach. I hope that if I were in a liberal denomination that I would object to female quotas in the pulpit, too.

Being conservative, for me everything that is held firmly needs to be firmly grounded in the Bible texts, and authoritarianism and is subtype, Complementarianism, simply is not. If it were, 9Marks/Acts29/CBMW and Crossway would not need to exist to spill all the ink and kill all the trees and pixels they do to make Complementarianism *seem* like it is somewhere in the Bible.

XianJaneway wrote:

Don’t forget, if it’s the pastor caught sinning, we all need to forgive & move on!

true.:(

Sallie Borrink wrote:

I think it is the Baptist upbringing in me. The idea of an outside identity (denominational hierarchy) having control over a congregation is just so foreign to me.

I hear ya! I was raised a Baptist also, so I know this struggle. I still feel that pull. I’m going to take the plunge and see what happens.

Bilbo Skaggins wrote:

I know my pastor means well, but he put the communion off to the side and it is now self-serve.

I’ve been to services that have the self-serve communion. This makes no sense to me. It empties the sacrament of all meaning. Don’t like it one bit.

@ refugee:
Those are just a couple of examples. I could cite many more.

Just one more thing, personally. I used to write music. I used to be quite skilled at writing music. Somewhere in the last two decades, I lost my joy in music. Several months after leaving our former church, I began to write again. Sporadically, not every day, but at least I have the ability once more. I think my creativity was stifled along with my spirit in that place.

They talked there about reclaiming the arts for christianity, that people would write new and beautiful and god-honoring hymns, create breathtaking artwork, write relevant fiction. But somehow the culture and atmosphere there was more quenching (as in putting out a fire) than encouraging.

XianJaneway wrote:

@ I am almost done:
Dear God, yes. Don’t have ideas, don’t ask questions, and for sure don’t disagree. But if you can decorate, write, or work w/ kids, go for it!

Oh, I dunno. Writing? Only if your audience is women, and maybe children. And only if it’s “spiritual.” And only if you don’t earn money from it. Because if you earn money by writing, well, women aren’t supposed to work outside the home. (I caught flack for being a home-based professional writer. It made people look at me funny, for starters, and went downhill from there.)

Bilbo Skaggins wrote:

My church does the quarterly thing. Some have asked for more. I know my pastor means well, but he put the communion off to the side and it is now self-serve. I never partake. It is just crackers and juice over there.

Self-serve crackers & juice (WalMart or Costco?) over there on the side.
Four times a year.

Try getting away with that at any Catholic church.

(“Yo, Jesus! Want to come over to this side of the Tiber where we actually put You front-and-center?”)

Ken wrote:

It is an accurate reflection of some of the truth of the NT, but not all of it.

I also have wrestled with this, with blood & tears. Which bit do you think is accurate? I’ve not been able to find anything – anything- that makes any of it bearable or balances it out.

At church we used to belong, the building had had to be rebuilt. When the presentation for the new building was given at a business meeting, I quickly realized (with a bs in math) that a portion of the proposed new building would overlap onto the county right-of-way for the highway. I tried to whisper my realization to my husband so that he could point that out. But, since women are not allowed to speak at business meetings, my husband shushed me! The proposal was voted through. Then, a few months later, everything had to be redone. The building permit was denied because of the right-of-way.
Yeah, I just stay out of church business altogether now. I’ll use my mathematical abilities for the fine art of doubling recipes for the dishes I bring to fellowship meals!

I kept waiting today with baited breath for SCOTUS to drop a few shoes including one that is going to be an earthquake in some churches. Maybe tomorrow, but what I am thinking is that more than a few people who feel strongly one way or the other about the issue will find themselves in the minority at their church and there may be quite a game of going-to-jerusalem with folks switching churches. At which point some folks will change some priorities as to what they have to have in a church and what they can live without in order to find a different church. I am not so sure that is entirely bad-that revisiting of values and re-arranging of priorities. When we made the big move as it were we had to take the bad with the good, assuming of course that our ideas of good and bad were worth much, and it is not easy to compromise like that. I, for example, am uncomfortable with women priests, but I sit on an episcopal pew none the less and have no plans to do otherwise. Probably some folks will decide that compromise is the best overall way to go at this point. Not everything is a hill on which to die.

refugee wrote:

I used to write music. I used to be quite skilled at writing music. Somewhere in the last two decades, I lost my joy in music. Several months after leaving our former church, I began to write again. Sporadically, not every day, but at least I have the ability once more. I think my creativity was stifled along with my spirit in that place.

I am so glad you have your music back! I am a visual artist and have had dry-as-bones times, a couple of them due to church-atmosphere. It crept in slowly, without my noticing…

Good art demands mystery and uncertainty, a willingness to sit quietly and openly with “what is”, a child’s ability to explore/imagine/play.

I doubt these conditions will happen any time soon in the Evangelical world.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Furtick Mansions are SOOOOOO expensive…

You’re not far off. Different denomination, but yes.

I hope I haven’t gone to meddling, but how about Pastor appreciation week or month or whatever it is. I feel we should appreciate our pastors for sure. I try to encourage mine often. But in my large church, we have been asked to donate extra for pastor every year on that special Sunday. The gifts have been quite elaborate IMO. The last one was the last straw for me. It was a several thousand dollar Honda scooter. After church, I sometimes see less fortunate people taking a taxi home.

Also, I am questioning all of the missions trips that young people are taking, asking all family and friends to chip in. Some of my relatives have traveled the world (Austrailia, Capetown, China, Korea…) on my dime (as well as others’ money). I haven’t been out of the country since the 1980’s and that was all paid for by me and my parents. Mission trip “prayer letters” hadn’t been conjured up yet. Also, what’s up with New York City mission trips? Are there no Christians in NYC already sharing the gospel? Oh, there are a lot of things to see? Let’s stop calling them missions trips and get real. They are tourism, paid for by others, made legit by passing out water bottles for one afternoon.

If you know that I am wrong, please say so and tag me. I want to know.

End of rant.

@ Ardiak:

I certainly hope you are right. It is encouraging to think so.

Daisy wrote:

Not every woman is material,

Sigh. I meant “MATERNAL.”
Not “material.”

Daisy wrote:

Sigh. I meant “MATERNAL.”
Not “material.”

lol….gave me a little chuckle.

@ Beakerj:
While i could have done my undergrad degree in English, i chose differently, but havd always, like you, loved language. And i do not see Calvinism in the NT, though it certainly is possible to pull,out proof texts and comd up with just about anything…

I have been “done” since late 2008 from a 20 year membership in a neo-Calvinist/Willow Creek/Tim Keller NY Redeemer model church. While enduring the 6th or 7th or (who remembers) capital stewardship campaign, I realized the Kingdom of God the pastor claimed to be “building” perhaps was not the same Kingdom of God Christ talked about in scripture, which sent me back to reading scripture for myself. My reasons for leaving were theological, though massive manipulation and authoritarian leadership was always present, and continues to be, for those who remain have recently built Warrior Sports Complex for the associated Christian school with their tithe money, all for the Kingdom of God, of course.

As one of the leaders in the Reformed “Contemporary Grace Movement” the pastor does not preach repentance for the forgiveness of sins as much as salvation by “realization” of who Christ is and what He has done for us. Sin and repentance are rarely mentioned, again theological…. but deadly for the unsaved. But they put money in the plate, so….

Just what might tie all these 700 and counting comments together? We ALL have our stories to tell, don’t we? Perhaps the “church” as we have all known it and as far back as we can recognize is NOT the church Christ established, not the entity He had in mind when HE was speaking of the church. I suspect that in order to understand how we got here we need to dig into church history and continually compare what we read to scripture. This is going to be a monumental undertaking. I certainly don’t know if I am up for it.

muzjik wrote:

**I** don’t even know what that answer is supposed to mean…

Fuehrerprinzip?

And as “the Pastor’s kid”, did he figure on inheriting the church from Daddy? Some of these churches are as dynastic as any Royal Family of old. (With all the accompanying Game of Thrones.)

I know this is long and slightly off topic, but could anybody give me some advice? I’ve read the previous article and comments, and a lot of what the ‘dones’ and ‘nearly-dones’ were saying really resonated with me… However, I had to stop because it felt like my head couldn’t take it any more.

I’ve spent nearly 30 years of my life in church in one way or another. Since I was 7 until I was 29 years old I was in the Seventh Day Adventist church, which I decided to leave due to serious disagreements with various beliefs and doctrines. The last 2 or 3 of those years were spent investigating my doubts and issues, and after an exhausting struggle within myself I decided to moved away, convinced that I was doing the right thing. I still stand by that decision.

For the last 6 years I’ve been attending an evangelical conservative church in the UK whose leaders sometimes tend toward positions not dissimilar to those of TGC… It is a church renowned for its teaching – and a lot of it is not bad at all. However, the reason why I stayed in it wasn’t that. It was because many of the people were very good to me and provided a lot of support as I transitioned from my previous church.

In the beginning I accepted everything I found there very enthusiastically, as if it were the only available truth… However, as time passed I learned more and became aware that ours weren’t the only existing interpretations. I also discovered more about other churches, such as the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, than what was defined in the ‘party line’. Finally, I learned about the many issues with doctrines and praxis that exist in evangelical churches similar to mine, such as those discussed at TWW.

All of this has made me quite disillusioned and it’s affected my faith very deeply. I still love a lot of the people I’ve found in the church, but I’ve become rather apathetic toward the church itself… I have tried to find ways to harmonise everything, but it is tiring. Exhausting. I was already exhausted of all the mental gymnastics I did for years in my previous church, and I don’t want to be trapped into that again. I stopped reading Christian books because I reached a point where it just wasn’t working any more… My ‘spiritual life’ is very irregular at best. There is a lot of tension in my mind about this, and sometimes I feel like something has to give in just for me to stay sane. Something has to break.

Is it bad of me that, often, I just would like to stay away from church for a while? That I feel that I want to be ‘in the world’, so to say, and to stop thinking of those outside as evangelistic projects or potential adversaries? At the same time I don’t want to be unfair to my church and to other Christians, and I wonder how much of all this is just my own making and if I should just forget about it all.

What I certainly know is that faith has never been an easy thing for me. Not as an Adventist, and not now. Accepting this, and recognising the importance of being honest with myself as much as possible, have been essential steps for me to feel a bit happier with myself.

Bilbo Skaggins wrote:

I hope I haven’t gone to meddling, but how about Pastor appreciation week or month or whatever it is. I feel we should appreciate our pastors for sure. I try to encourage mine often. But in my large church, we have been asked to donate extra for pastor every year on that special Sunday. The gifts have been quite elaborate IMO. The last one was the last straw for me. It was a several thousand dollar Honda scooter. After church, I sometimes see less fortunate people taking a taxi home.
Also, I am questioning all of the missions trips that young people are taking, asking all family and friends to chip in. Some of my relatives have traveled the world (Austrailia, Capetown, China, Korea…) on my dime (as well as others’ money). I haven’t been out of the country since the 1980’s and that was all paid for by me and my parents. Mission trip “prayer letters” hadn’t been conjured up yet. Also, what’s up with New York City mission trips? Are there no Christians in NYC already sharing the gospel? Oh, there are a lot of things to see? Let’s stop calling them missions trips and get real. They are tourism, paid for by others, made legit by passing out water bottles for one afternoon.

Taking a taxi home? Heck, I have to walk home, 2 miles! Who can afford a weekly round trip taxi ride, yet when I see these elaborate gifts (of which I am supposed to contribute) it hurts, a lot. I do think that pastors should be rewarded for their hard work but sometimes I think this is taken to game show levels, if you know what I mean. “You won a new car!” (to go with your other 4 nice cars and Harley collection)

Regarding missions and handing out water bottles, I donate to organizations here in the USA like the “I Am Waters Foundation” or similar organizations. Some of them are even secular in nature, but they reach out to those in need, locally, instead of money being spent on tax free vacations. They give bottled water out to homeless people and displaced people free of charge, right in their own town.

There are a lot of wonderful pastors here in America, that do work hard and barely are paid, and can barely survive. Those are not the pastors I take issues with. The pastors I take issue with are those living like royalty off the backs of the poor and marginalized in society.

@ Martos:
One other thing. When we are faced with difficult situations, the tendency to thing “if A is bad then non-A is better.” That may not be true, and you might not know that until you are well into non-A. There are problems in all the church traditions of which I am aware, including the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic and many Protestant denominations. The problems are very different, but there are still problems which you may find even more troublesome. If there is no rush, then maybe it is wisest not to be in a rush to make a decision.

  __

“Lifting Up Holy Hands Together, Our Lord Jesus Be Praised in the Hills and the Plains?”

huh?

hey Kind Folk,

Just kind note ta say I think you are remembered before our God and Father, – your work produced by faith, – your labor prompted by love, and – your endurance inspired by ‘hope’ in our Lord Jesus Christ!

…have courage!

May you ‘endure’ in “His Name”, 

May your cup over flow!

hmmm…

Ya know, I was think’in…the last time I checked, Jesus’ “church” is/are made up of those who ‘believe’ in Him as spoken of in the “Holy Scriptures” ™:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life…” -Jesus

“This is the work of God, that you ‘believe’ in Him whom He has sent.”  -Jesus

“For the Scripture says, ‘WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.’ ” – Apostle Paul

…For the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for ‘all’ who call on Him…” – Apostle Paul

“Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it will happen…” 

“If you had faith like a mustard seed, you would say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and be planted in the sea’; and it would obey you…” -Jesus

Participation is ‘voluntary joy’,

(grin)

…for those washed in the blood of the Lamb, where ‘Kindness’, ‘Care’, and ‘Others’, are important watch words…

Yep.

The meeting place is not really all that important, but the quality and the group dynamics are. 

I remember, New Testament churches in the first century were begun & started by interested community members of both sex, sometimes outa-towners as well. 

Gosh!

These gatherings were informal, and many times met in secret due to opposing prevailing ideology, political, or religious convictions. (i.e. your life was a ‘bit’ at risk.)

Fellowships ‘of the Way’ as it was then called in the first century, did not necessarily have pastors. 

What?

SKreeeeeeeeeeeeeetch !

(super-natural stuff goes here…)

The Saints, those separated ones to God’s service whom Apostle Paul (who penned most of the New Testament) spoke of so tenderly, met in community to break bread and worship the Lamb of God who had graciously taken away their sins, rising from the dead, Jesus who now posessed the keys of Death and Hell, who’s blood had covered them, who had gone back to His Father’s house in ‘Heaven’ to prepare a place for His precious little ones: here they will spend all eternity with Him, where the leaf withers not, where the waters of life are freely given, where the very ‘light’ present, is made manifest by His (Jesus’) own presence. 
This is not a place of pain anguish or suffering, as He will wipe away each and every tear. (A promise)

Be of good cheer, your sins are forgiven?

(datz what da Master sayz…   😉  )

(smiley face goes here)

Our Lord Jesus, has bruised the serpent’s head?

Yep.

So look up, Saints, your ‘Salvation’ draws near…

Please take courage; your faith in Jesus, God’s precious Son shall make you well…

‘Meeting where the Lord’s freedom rings!’ ™

I pray for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, that you will engage your faith, champion again, and strengthen your brothers and sisters,

The Lord be with you!

ATB 🙂

Sopy

—

Why I might become a done:
Mrs A A can’t get out much– in pain 24/7/365. In our current church she’s made it to our first visit and one service and one prayer meeting — in 3 years. They understand. They pray for us. They offer to help.There’s communion every Sunday, great for irregular attendees like myself. This church has little in common with so many of those experienced by so many dones, or with our former YRR/9Marks/Acts29 one. I’m really blessed. But every service or activity I take part in– takes me away from my wife. Internet activities, TWW, etc do not. I seriously need to increase e-church fellowship with my local brethren and sistren as I foresee my “attendance” further diminishing. IF this church goes the way of all flesh– either closing down, or in the way Paul understood the flesh– I may be done. I can’t imagine having the energy to seek out a new one.

Nancy wrote:

She partly loves that because she is an awesome cook and likes to share that skill. She is also a lector. She loves all of it. Why should she be denied doing the ladies and mommie stuff just because she is a lawyer?

Ahhh…but there it is. She loves that and no one is going to deny her that based on her gender…win/win.

But what if, say, as a lawyer, she felt her passion and gifting leaned more toward, say, conflict resolution within the church or teaching teens (boys and girls) to study Scripture with a appraising eye as to context and unbiased/varied interpretation? Would she be encouraged to do something she loved if it didn’t fit in the ladies and mommy box?

muzjik wrote:

Would she be encouraged to do something she loved if it didn’t fit in the ladies and mommy box?

Yes, that was what I was getting at in my post above, but it took me 20 pages more to make the same point. 🙂

For women of whatever background who love to bake cookies and do stereotypical girly girl functions, regardless of their education, employment, or personality, they will not have a problem with most evangelical or Baptist churches.

Because most churches are gender complementarian and already force and cram all women of all educational levels, careers, and temperments into child nursery roles, doing wife and mommy sort of things.

The problem is not for lawyer women who would love to bake cookies at their local church, because they will already fit in with the church’s gender template.

The problem is for lawyer women who have zilch, zero, zippo inclination to want to bake cookies at church. Where are those lawyer women supposed to go? The churches tell them, “we don’t know, and we don’t care.”

@ XianJaneway:
When I was in my early teens, we were going to a medium sized church of a small denomination. On Mother’s Day the minister announced from the pulpit he was having affairs with several ladies of the church. He would “visit” with the ladies while their husbands worked. Needless to say this was our last time going to this church. We had only been going there about 4-5 months at the most. The minister asked everyone to forgive him, which is Biblical, but then he wanted everything to go on as usual. Thank God my parents were wise enough to take us to a different church. My mom was also a working mother, so I knew she wasn’t one of them. This made a big impact on my life in a negative way.

These are the reasons I have no interest in trying again:

1) Too many narcissists drawn to the pulpit. This is a serious mental disorder. Much of the church’s dysfunction stems from NPDs being destructive individuals and petty tyrants.
2) Pastors too removed from flock. They can’t be bothered learning the names of the giving units, not even the folks volunteering week after week for years. They visibly treat acknowledging members as an annoyance.
3) Obscene levels of nepotism and cronyism. At Gateway virtually all of the 200 pastors got their job due to birth right or friendships. Most have no formal theological training. These people were never called into ministry. Head pastors treat the church as a personal family business where tithes are used to put family who do little to no work on the payroll for life.
4) Sister churches agreeing to pay large tithe funded honorariums to each other’s pastors in order to funnel church cash to pastors’ private bank accounts. This form of personal enrichment at tither’s expense is unethical and wrong.
5) Mandatory tithing and constant nagging about extravagant giving to the point of being coercive and abusive.
6). Lack of financial transparency. Real financial statements should be made available to members who are your shareholders.
7). Elaborate and wasteful expenditures. Yesterday two Gateway pastors with their wives posted fashion ladened selfies inside London’s Heathrow Airport. One of those pastors had an affair yet still gets rewarded with very high paid positions for the whole family plus regular trips to Europe. A third pastor posted “I bet there is a Gateway Pastor in that airport almost daily : D”. That’s right. GW tithers pay for pastors to go to Europe 365 days a year! Paying for pastors constant European vacations is disaffecting. How does this further the Kingdom?
8). Relevance. All performance geared at the world. Hair gel, age inappropriate clothing. 50-60 yr olds dressing like 25 yr olds. 35 yr olds dressing and acting like skate board punks, using absurd slang that doesn’t belong in a night club let alone a church. You people are ridiculous. Leaders trying to desperately relive high school with the mean girl clique groups. This is repulsive and ungodly. I never want to see an overweight 55 yr old in whiskered skinny jeans with an embroidered untucked Buckle shirt and spiky Rogained hair again.
9) Fakey-ness. Teaching the worship team to fake their worship experience using pre-choreographed hand movements, fake expressions, dramatically timed fake fall to the knees and the wiping away of non-existent fake tears. Hang out back stage some night. You will be sickened by how scripted this stuff is. They practice and teach this. Fake “atmosphere teams” fall under this. And the “spontaneous” baptisms. You can find more real emotion in a strip club. This is pure manipulation for profit and is unforgivable.
10) Merchandizing God’s word. Pastors claiming God gave them godly insights that they have crafted into books, study guides, CDs and DVDs but they are charging cash for these. If God “gave” the word to you freely shouldn’t you give it to others for free as well? Pastors becoming millionaires off the backs of their congregants I will never get over. That is from Satan.
11) False teaching. Twisting scripture for shameful gain. Taking the Word of God and perverting it for your own purpose. Adding to scripture as though it is truth. Saying things like “we don’t teach word of faith” then rolling straight into the “declarations”.
12). Extra biblical direct revelations – pastors claiming God speaks audibly to them, giving them special messages. Teaching this as coming from God is heretical. This goes for vision casting as well. God already cast the vision. I will never attend a vision casting church.
13). Politics. Putting Presidential candidates on the pulpit. Putting voter registration booths inside the church itself. Telling (scolding/shaming) members how to vote.
14). Surrendering the pulpit to actors, politicians, entertainers, sports stars (especially the drug and sex addict ones) and professional comedians. Put that in a classroom if you must but not at weekend service for the sermon.
15). Pastors who preach and pray in weird comedy voices, especially men trying to be black females or flamboyant black gay men. That’s racist and sexist. Medea should not be leading corporate prayer. That is blasphemous.
16). Jumbotrons. There should never be gigantic screens featuring the 30′ face of preachers and singers. That is idolatry.
17). Christanese. This is the worst of the poser syndrome. It is cultic and intended to be exclusionary. Why should such principles ever belong in a church?
18). The leaching in of mysticism via contemplative prayer and much worse. Charismatics and Pentecostals push the boundaries closer to Satanism than Christianity. The eroticism of Jesus in these movements’ women’s ministries is just creepy. No, I don’t want to have sex with Jesus in Paris.
19) Entertainment focus in specialized ministries. Men’s, Women’s and Youth services are all about the entertainment and the party. How about the hookup single (divorced) adult hotel retreats – wink wink. Churches claim they do this in order to be more accessible to the unsaved. But what do the unsaved learn from this? There is no God. Just professional comedians, naughty little jokes and bawdy door prizes and lots of party music and food. Again, this is just creepy. As the slope keeps slipping you have to wonder where it will end. When did church get so nasty?

Note to researchers: Losing the boomer Dones is more important than you realize. It’s easy to get young parents to go to church as they desire to put their kids into children’s church so they feel like they are doing the right thing. But what happens in ten years when their kids are out of junior high? You have no older parents role modeling service and commitment to those young parents. No older greeters or organizers or mentors or group leaders. Kids who grow up with divorced parents tend to be more susceptible to divorce. Young parents who see the older parents bailing in droves will follow suit. Your millennials won’t see any long term benefit in investing in corporate church life. No offense but college kids don’t want to hang with harried mothers with screaming kids. Let’s face it, the young parents lean towards the more resource draining end of the spectrum during that phase of their lives. Your singles and older (40’s) parents, empty nesters and seniors take up a lot of that tithing and volunteering slack because young parents are generally burning the candle at both ends. If you don’t fix this you will see the end of the church as you know it. From where I stand that’s not a bad thing. The American church has evolved for the worst into something corrupt, worldly and largely godless.

I want to comment on one of the fundamental flaws in the modern church growth movement that I haven’t seen crystallized. I hope and pray that future leaders read this, get this, and change how church is being done.

The cause: The church governance model I call Entrepreneurial Monarchy. This is a blend of a corporation ruled by a king.

The organization is formed in startup mode. The founding pastor doesn’t really invest much cash, but he invests time and effort in the early days. The small group of early adopters know each other well. When the time comes to select “elders” the tendency is to pick men who are experienced in trades and businesses, who are employers and decision makers, but typically very short on theology. This assures the senior pastor that only men who will be loyal to him will ever be an elder. Therefore there is, and will never be, an independent board who could take steps to remove him. It’s a “given” that the congregation has zero power to vote on anything, especially and including no power to ever be able to force discipline or removal of the senior pastor.

The senior pastor takes all the power, so his salary is that of a CEO. Soon, he gets control of all the money, When the senior pastor veers off course theologically, the congregation has only two choices: stay and endure bad teaching, or disengage their entire family and leave for good. There is no going back. There is no course correction. The king makes all the rules. The people must serve the king.

As the organization grows, more family members are put on the payroll. Most have little or no theological training or background. Eventually the pastor gets into his 50’s and his male children, who often failed in college, failed in business, and have no merit and no theological background, are given six figure salaried positions, where they work 10-20 hours a week with no accountability, and the congregation is told that this “heir to the kingdom” will be their pastor for the next 30 years. Because the senior pastor was there from the beginning, he feels entitled to the “founders stock” of this company (money, power, fame, and control of who occupies those in the “King’s Court”) when the organization grows.

Over 230 years ago, Americans fought a War of Independence to get free from the British monarchy. We won our independence, our right to vote for our own representatives in the legislature that determines the laws we all will live under, because the King of England was a corrupt, selfish, money-grubbing tyrant.

The issue, dear planters, is that your form of Entrepreneurial Monarchy is putting the citizens of America back under the rule of tyrants, including the taxation without representation. This model is distinctly un-American.

Jesus called pastors to be the servants, and the modern pastors treat themselves as the masters and the congregation as servants. They have it all backwards. This is not Christ’s church. This isn’t a church at all. They use churchy words, but it’s an untaxed corporation run by a king. And that’s why I’m a Done.

LT wrote:

The head pastor should not be able to have complete control over his elders. Elders should be elected by the members and have the authority to remove a bad pastor. Bad things inevitably happen where no accountability exists.

Well, as long as we’re talking ‘shoulds’, people should be smart enough to just stay away from this stuff. Remember, the congregation enables ALL of it. Just as long as people put up with this evil nonsense, so long it will continue.

Nancy wrote:

In the meantime okrapod is something one chops and throws in gumbo or else cross cuts, dips in batter and fries in hot oil.

And is super, super, super yummy. Is my second favorite vegetable after asparagus.

roebuck wrote:

LT wrote:
At Gateway virtually all of the 200 pastors
200 pastors? WT#? (ed.) That’s not church. That’s a machine. What is this fixation on gigantism?

Compensation for other shortcomings, I suppose. Possibly embarrassing physical ones. Like the guy who just can’t help revving his heavily modified hot rod, as if the ladies ever really dug that.

muzjik wrote:

Nancy wrote:
She partly loves that because she is an awesome cook and likes to share that skill. She is also a lector. She loves all of it. Why should she be denied doing the ladies and mommie stuff just because she is a lawyer?
Ahhh…but there it is. She loves that and no one is going to deny her that based on her gender…win/win.
But what if, say, as a lawyer, she felt her passion and gifting leaned more toward, say, conflict resolution within the church or teaching teens (boys and girls) to study Scripture with a appraising eye as to context and unbiased/varied interpretation? Would she be encouraged to do something she loved if it didn’t fit in the ladies and mommy box?

Or what if she’s quite the go-getter entrepreneur in the Proverbs 31 mold? A Proverbs 31 woman would be branded a Jezebel at some of the churches I’ve attended.

You should really link to some of Steve Taylor’s videos from his Squint album. The CD has a really good an anti marketing of Christianity grit to it.

Mike Green wrote:

As the organization grows, more family members are put on the payroll. Most have little or no theological training or background. Eventually the pastor gets into his 50’s and his male children, who often failed in college, failed in business, and have no merit and no theological background, are given six figure salaried positions, where they work 10-20 hours a week with no accountability, and the congregation is told that this “heir to the kingdom” will be their pastor for the next 30 years. Because the senior pastor was there from the beginning, he feels entitled to the “founders stock” of this company (money, power, fame, and control of who occupies those in the “King’s Court”) when the organization grows.

When the shareholders become stakeholders, it all becomes about benefiting those already in power. And it’s a mess. I haven’t personally been in the kind of Empire model you’re talking about, Mike, but have seen plenty of cronyism and nepotism in supposed-to-be Christian non-profits, churches, etc.

You might find this post of interest, on the “Pyramid of Responsibility.” The top tier, just under the Dictator, is usually full of the Dictator’s family members and friends.

https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/responsibility-for-spiritual-abuse-part-2b/

I am not a done, but I had an encounter a number of years ago that is relevant to this thread and some of the posts in it.

I was flying from Colorado to California, and sat next to a man in his early 20s. In the Mandatory PreFlight Conversation, we exchanged pleasantries. He said he was a college student. I asked him about it: turns out he was studying at a small Christian college in California. He elaborated that he was going to be a pastor. I responded happily to the news, being a Christian and all…told him, “Oh, I’m a Christian, too.” He looked at me with scorn in his eyes and said, “Oh, no religion for me. That’s not my speed. I’m in it for the money. You do the charisma thing, the spiritual talk thing–start a church; that’ where the money is.”

I don’t remember any conversation after that. I was stunned.

That was about 20 years ago…just about the right time to catch this mega-wave and make all his dreams come true.

___

“If any man lack wisdom, let him of God.”

“If anyone be willing to do Thy will, he shall know.”

hmmm…

The bible is true on both accounts.

Yep.

ya know, church organizations and establishments, they come and go, rise and fall, some just f-a-d-e away,

But the Word of our God will last forever.

(chances are you may have a copy)

If not you can obtain a physical copy from just about any local Christian church, many free of charge.

There are many versions online as well.

“Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path” ,

Please open it’s pages today!

You will be glad you did!

*

“Jesus, you are my sunshine,
you are my sunshine,
you make me happy,
when church sky’s are gray…”

Hum, hum, hum…

ATB

Sopy

🙂

—

Beakerj wrote:

I also have wrestled with this, with blood & tears. Which bit do you think is accurate? I’ve not been able to find anything – anything- that makes any of it bearable or balances it out.

A 95 theses question! I’ll try to keep it short.

Out of TULIP I think total depravity is more important to the gospel than say predestination. Since some have run off with the idea, I’ll define my understanding of this is that everyone is tainted with sin in all of their life. It doesn’t mean everyone is as bad as they could be, nor that no-one is ever capable of doing good. It does entail being dead in trespasses and sins, and therefore utterly dependent on God to intervene – to give grace – to be able to respond to the gospel. To me it is antidote to seekerism, which grossly underestimates the effects of sin and tries to persuade people to make a decision for Jesus because God loves them.

Limited atonement – everyone but universalists believes in this, it is why it is limited that is the issue. Is it because God doesn’t choose to save some, or because he allows us to reject the offer of mercy contained in the gospel? This is the whole calvinist issue in a nutshell. I do believe God has the right to save one and not another, he doesn’t owe us mercy, but I’m not convinced he actually operates this way.

I have some presuppositions on this issue. I believe predestination is in the NT as a source of encouragement and blessing. If it only gets us down, or if we can only spend 400 years arguing about what it probably means, we must have lost the plot. It’s not intended to become some sort of curse – and I fully understand that it can. It can do your brain in if you let it, even become something of an obsession.

As far as ‘difficult’ passages like Romans 9 – 11 go, we have to be prepared to let our thinking change to conform with apostolic teaching rather than insist on only accepting how we think God ought to have treated mankind. Read widely of the various views and understanding of this those who have gone before us have left us this is nothing new, but if this only makes you depressed, leave it alone. Leave off those parts of the bible and read elsewhere (which I’m sure will confirm my status as heretic with some, but I’ve had to do it myself before now).

Sola scriptura means you cannot add Secondary Standards and sundry Catechisms to your doctrinal stance. The latter may be good summaries of the NT, but I don’t think we should ever accept or reject people who love the Lord who don’t happen to agree in every detail with our stance on this issue. Danger of group think here, or majoring on minors. What matters is we have put our faith in Christ and walk in the light, not the mechanics of exactly how this came about in the first place.

I don’t believe we contribute anything to our salvation, but I don’t have any problem with the idea of divine-human cooperation, and can’t understand why some people do.

I wonder if some people are attracted to calvinism as they see proponents taking the text of the NT seriously, even where is says things we don’t like. What I don’t like is interpreting some passages (especially the warning passages in Hebrews) to make them fit a theological scheme like calvimisn, rather than taking them at face value in context.

Arminianism in its popular expression can underplay the seriousness of sin, and tends to over-emphasize the love of God, a subject not mentioned all that often in the bible.

I don’t believe for a single second that God has created people only to choose to damn them for all of eternity for his glory. It’s not an uncommon objection, but I just don’t believe God is like that, this is a caricature (and I don’t mean when you said this earlier you were deliberately caricaturing the NT). Surely For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him is alone the end of any such notion of such a God.

FWIW my current position on all this is that those in ‘heaven’ will be there soley because of the grace of God, and those who are not because they chose as an act of the will to reject the gospel in favour of personal autonomy. How do these two ideas fit together? Does it really matter?!! There will be no Calvinists in heaven, nor Arminians, nor egalitarians or complementarians, nor those who never knew the difference – only believers.

So much for keeping it short!

muzjik wrote:

The first answer (from the pastor’s kid) was “leadership.

It sounds as if dad needs to spend more time indoctrinating junior if he expects him to someday take over the family business. We all know the complete answer would have been “gospel centered” leadership!

Dave A A wrote:

Why I might become a done:
Mrs A A can’t get out much– in pain 24/7/365. In our current church she’s made it to our first visit and one service and one prayer meeting — in 3 years. They understand. They pray for us. They offer to help.There’s communion every Sunday, great for irregular attendees like myself. This church has little in common with so many of those experienced by so many dones, or with our former YRR/9Marks/Acts29 one. I’m really blessed. But every service or activity I take part in– takes me away from my wife. Internet activities, TWW, etc do not. I seriously need to increase e-church fellowship with my local brethren and sistren as I foresee my “attendance” further diminishing. IF this church goes the way of all flesh– either closing down, or in the way Paul understood the flesh– I may be done. I can’t imagine having the energy to seek out a new one.

Sorry Dave A A……I too have serious health issues. ( two forms of cancer. I might miss all church activities for months at a time, due to chemo treatments.
Our former church used this against me in many ways. Mostly by suggesting I couldn’t have an opinion on the way the church was being run because I was absent too much. ( had attended for 26 years)
Anyway, we left the church, broken hearted and bruised. We were very leery, sceptical about ever finding another church who would understand our haphazard attendance. We were afraid to expend the emotional energy of finding a place to worship.
We ended up visiting a church, cold turkey, we knew no one, and we are seniors on top of it all. Long story short, the church embraced us, sickness, age , and all. Last winter I didn’t attend any service for four months. My husband missed some services as well because my sickness required his help. Instead of being dismissed, or ignored the Church, they were understanding of our situation and have been most kind, encouraging.
Anyway, I know our stories are different, but I want to encourage you not to give up…there may be a blessing down the road yet.

Gram3 wrote:

When we are faced with difficult situations, the tendency to thing “if A is bad then non-A is better.” That may not be true, and you might not know that until you are well into non-A. There are problems in all the church traditions of which I am aware, including the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic and many Protestant denominations. The problems are very different, but there are still problems which you may find even more troublesome. If there is no rush, then maybe it is wisest not to be in a rush to make a decision.

Those are wise words. Let me add an ‘also’ comment-not to take away from anything you have said. There is a saying but I don’t know who said it: ‘Man is made of many needs. He feeds the one that gnaws him most.’

In light of the comments here it seems apparent that certain particular things bother some people more than they bother others. Like complementarianism for example and the effect of that thinking on women’s opportunity for participation in some aspects of the church. For other people the really big issues are something else, like some who have children whose needs are not being met and a huge issue if the needs of the child. When an issue or two or a bunch become that important and necessary to deal with sometimes a switch to a different set of problems can be a life saver.

Nobody should forget the ‘grass is greener’ tendency and the trap that presents. But nobody should pass up the good opportunity (job, marriage, friendship) just because it is not perfect. And no, you can’t know for sure until down the road perhaps quite a way from when you did it, made the change.

In my experience, I had a huge problem with the religious tradition in which I was born. So I made a huge switch. It is of course not perfect. But the thing is that I as so much better able to cope with issues now that the big issue, the religious elephant in the living room, has been driven off. I can see where somebody who needed a good and safe place for their children, for example, might be better able to cope with other issues once that one was adequately addressed. But if people’s issue is one that they are going to take with them, like difficulty dealing with people, or perhaps having unrealistic expectations of how other people ought to do, then maybe the church down the road would be no different that the current church.

People can escape the music and the show by making a move to a different kind of church. People can escape one particular set of ideas about women by making a change. People can most certainly find a better place for the children in making sure what they are taught and how they are treated. People can move either toward or away from certain charismatic beliefs and practices. If the current church is not to be trusted with the money, then one can get away from super rich and super irresponsible mega and solve that. And there are huge differences in faith and practice between some traditions and others, and sometimes that has to be addressed by severing the ties that bind and being radical in the process.

I am with you on this due consideration issue. At the same time I am definitely not thinking that just staying and enduring is the right answer, not when it comes to big kingdom issues. I believe we have responsibilities to follow Jesus, listen to the Spirit, pursue truth, act in the best interest of those in our care, and act bravely once we think we know what needs to be done, always remembering that we are yet this side of the resurrection and nothing is perfect and we ourselves are limited in understanding.

And the church says ‘how long, O Lord, how long?’

PaJo wrote:

I was flying from Colorado to California, and sat next to a man in his early 20s. In the Mandatory PreFlight Conversation, we exchanged pleasantries. He said he was a college student. I asked him about it: turns out he was studying at a small Christian college in California. He elaborated that he was going to be a pastor. I responded happily to the news, being a Christian and all…told him, “Oh, I’m a Christian, too.” He looked at me with scorn in his eyes and said, “Oh, no religion for me. That’s not my speed. I’m in it for the money. You do the charisma thing, the spiritual talk thing–start a church; that’ where the money is.”

Wow. Just wow.

And it explains so much.

@ Sallie Borrink:
Sallie, I keep popping in and out, but when I read your earlier posts I could empathize with your experience. I’ve had a blood condition for decades that has a significant affect on my energy level. With work responsibilities, and family responsibilities I have little energy to serve in the church which pretty much leaves me on the fringe. I’ll be praying for you!

I’m still in church right now, but have thought about leaving. There are people I really appreciate in this church. However, being relatively new, I am finding it very difficult to have conversation with anyone, much less build a relationship. It is either limited to the usual “Hi, how are you?” When you pass in the hall. Bible studies are monologues with a brief time for questions. I feel like people are mostly talking at me instead of to me which is frustrating, but nothing new. As I said I have been a part of 6 different churches over a thirty year period and only had one church in which I made close friends. That was because I was a stay-at-home mom and actually had time to develop friendships. Now with work and ever increasing family responsibilities including an aging parent, plus my own health problems I feel like it is not going to happen.
I could endure that, but I hate the feeling of being judged because of the values communicated in the monologue. Consistent church attendance is a big one for me. I have to be on guard all the time which makes it tiring.

Mae wrote:

Dave A A wrote:
Why I might become a done:
Mrs A A can’t get out much– in pain 24/7/365. In our current church she’s made it to our first visit and one service and one prayer meeting — in 3 years. They understand. They pray for us. They offer to help.There’s communion every Sunday, great for irregular attendees like myself. This church has little in common with so many of those experienced by so many dones, or with our former YRR/9Marks/Acts29 one. I’m really blessed. But every service or activity I take part in– takes me away from my wife. Internet activities, TWW, etc do not. I seriously need to increase e-church fellowship with my local brethren and sistren as I foresee my “attendance” further diminishing. IF this church goes the way of all flesh– either closing down, or in the way Paul understood the flesh– I may be done. I can’t imagine having the energy to seek out a new one.
Sorry Dave A A……I too have serious health issues. ( two forms of cancer. I might miss all church activities for months at a time, due to chemo treatments.
Our former church used this against me in many ways. Mostly by suggesting I couldn’t have an opinion on the way the church was being run because I was absent too much. ( had attended for 26 years)
Anyway, we left the church, broken hearted and bruised. We were very leery, sceptical about ever finding another church who would understand our haphazard attendance. We were afraid to expend the emotional energy of finding a place to worship.
We ended up visiting a church, cold turkey, we knew no one, and we are seniors on top of it all. Long story short, the church embraced us, sickness, age , and all. Last winter I didn’t attend any service for four months. My husband missed some services as well because my sickness required his help. Instead of being dismissed, or ignored the Church, they were understanding of our situation and have been most kind, encouraging.
Anyway, I know our stories are different, but I want to encourage you not to give up…there may be a blessing down the road yet.

Mae, sorry, but I have to go here….what denomination?

Mike Green wrote:

As the organization grows, more family members are put on the payroll. Most have little or no theological training or background. Eventually the pastor gets into his 50’s and his male children, who often failed in college, failed in business, and have no merit and no theological background, are given six figure salaried positions, where they work 10-20 hours a week with no accountability, and the congregation is told that this “heir to the kingdom” will be their pastor for the next 30 years.

And when Pastor/Apostle/Founder Daddy kicks off or retires, the Game of Thrones begins between all those Pastor Juniors. For only ONE can sit on the Iron Throne of the Mega. Dagger and poison, everyone!

This is how my diocese got their new cathedral (the former Crystal Cathedral). Schuller wasn’t even dead (just retired) and his heirs ran it into the ground. Us Romish Papists had the high bid at the resulting fire sale.

Sallie Borrink wrote:

PaJo wrote:
I was flying from Colorado to California, and sat next to a man in his early 20s. In the Mandatory PreFlight Conversation, we exchanged pleasantries. He said he was a college student. I asked him about it: turns out he was studying at a small Christian college in California. He elaborated that he was going to be a pastor. I responded happily to the news, being a Christian and all…told him, “Oh, I’m a Christian, too.” He looked at me with scorn in his eyes and said, “Oh, no religion for me. That’s not my speed. I’m in it for the money. You do the charisma thing, the spiritual talk thing–start a church; that’ where the money is.”
Wow. Just wow.
And it explains so much.

Sounds like the underground church (avoiding obvious physical facilities) needs to start sooner than later. And may the profit centers run themselves into the ground… Let believers be as wise as serpents and not just as gentle as doves.

@ Nancy:
Thanks for those comments which are very true. I think there were some very good responses to Martos’ questions, and I hope they are helpful in the situation.

LT wrote:

14). Surrendering the pulpit to actors, politicians, entertainers, sports stars (especially the drug and sex addict ones)….

But then how can all the RESPECTABLE Church Lady types get their JUICY JUICY JUICY fix of Vicarious Fun-filled SIN SIN SIN and still remain RESPECTABLE(TM)?

15). Pastors who preach and pray in weird comedy voices, especially men trying to be black females or flamboyant black gay men. That’s racist and sexist. Medea should not be leading corporate prayer. That is blasphemous.

I’m not quick to go “racist and sexist”.
CLUELESS, definitely. And/or Dumb.
Trying for comedy relief and ending up with Jar-Jar Binks.

16). Jumbotrons. There should never be gigantic screens featuring the 30′ face of preachers and singers. That is idolatry.

That is Big Brother on the Telescreen.
Especially when simulcasted to all the “franchise campuses” a la Mars Hill.

17). Christanese. This is the worst of the poser syndrome. It is cultic and intended to be exclusionary. Why should such principles ever belong in a church?

To stroke the egos of the Inner Ring with their Speshul club language.
To act as an IFF recognition code.

18). The leaching in of mysticism via contemplative prayer and much worse. Charismatics and Pentecostals push the boundaries closer to Satanism than Christianity. The eroticism of Jesus in these movements’ women’s ministries is just creepy. No, I don’t want to have sex with Jesus in Paris.

There has been a continuing mystical tradition throughout historical Christianity. But the Protestant Reformation got away from it, and now you’re seeing those of a mystical bent breaking out using Shirley MacLaine as a model because they didn’t have an established Christian mystical tradition. Groping in the dark.

Not to say that mystical tradition didn’t have its own problems on occasion. “The eroticism of Jesus in these movements’ women’s ministries” sounds like a revival of late Medieval “Bridal Mysticism” (and not today’s watered-down CCM “Jeesus is My Boyfriend” variety), where cloistered nuns vowed to celibacy since age six expressed religious ecstasy using highly-erotic language. (“Thrust me through with Thy Divine Love! Fill me with Thy Holy Spirit as with child!”) In the extreme cases, it was like Driscoll of Mars Hill “Seeing things”, with forbidden sexual fantasy breaking out in Church-acceptable forms. (The universal idea of the time that the only REAL Christians practiced Celibacy and Virginity led to a LOT of priests, monks, and nuns who were NOT cut out for it taking the vow.)

Off-topic Alert:

MSNBC newsfeed headline “SUPREME COURT RULES IN FAVOR OF GAY MARRIAGE NATIONWIDE”.

Three guesses what’s going to be SCREAMED from a lot of pulpits this coming Sunday? You near-Dones might want to stay home or go full-honk Done over the next two days, because there’s going to be some real Bad Craziness reactions coming down the chute.

numo wrote:

A lot of us aremoutside that Calvinist-Arminian spectrum entirely.

Impossible! 🙂 I don’t think Ken meant it that way, but it does seem to come down to that in the places I’ve been and maybe where Ken has been.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

LOL!! HUG you’re a riot! So hoping you make it to DC one of these days, I want to buy you dinner! 🙂

@ K.D.:

The church which gave us the “boot”, was actually non demoninational. The church which we have found refuge, is an American Baptist.

@ Gram3:
This always gets pushback! I think but don’t have time to check that God’s love is explicitly mentioned about 35 times in the entire bible. This does not mean is it not important, it does mean there is far more to the bible’s revelation of God than this, and the church often gets this out of balance.

I also think part of the pushback is because far too many Christians spend far too much time not being secure in the love of God and enjoying his grace, and constantly need reassuring the God does indeed accept them. He’s for them and not against them. Given the nature of this thread and failure of so many churches and fellowships to reflect the love of God, this is hardly surprising.

I certainly know what it is like to robbed of this assurance.

Ken wrote:

I don’t believe we contribute anything to our salvation, but I don’t have any problem with the idea of divine-human cooperation, and can’t understand why some people do.

I wonder about that in terms of repentance. I know people GASP when that is even mentioned because I don’t think it disses Justification at all to wonder if some see repentance and belief as a “work”. Jesus’s first sermons were” Repent and believe. Repent means we have to decide to “do” something.

SCOTUS decision = America’s tipping point. When judgment begins, it will begin at the house of God. As the church goes, so goes the nation. This blog site has painted a portrait of an American church desperately off-track … ready for correction. Tighten your seat belts, folks … I’ve got a feeling we’re going for a bumpy ride.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Three guesses what’s going to be SCREAMED from a lot of pulpits this coming Sunday? You near-Dones might want to stay home or go full-honk Done over the next two days, because there’s going to be some real Bad Craziness reactions coming down the chute.

I’m getting my popcorn ready…..

William wrote:

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I am a done and I don’t agree with the SC’s decision. Are you assuming that “dones” are going to uniformly agree with the approval of “gay marriage”? I’ll bet many do not.

And those who disagree will likely disagree for different reasons. It has become impossible to have any kind of nuanced opinion without being labeled either a bigot on the one hand or an antinomian libertine on the other. On matters of law and the balance of powers between local, state, and federal and also between the various branches of our uniquely American government, I think it is possible to have a variety of opinions. I even think that it is quite possible to be in favor of civil marriage without also thinking the SCOTUS decision is a good one for reasons well beyond the current question. The problem is that we, on either side of any political question, get caught up in our position and not in the principles in play which may come back to bite us. That is true for both “sides” in this debate, IMO, though I doubt that either “side” will be able to see that. That’s as OT as I’m prepared to go, but maybe we can take it to the ODP.

Max wrote:

. Tighten your seat belts, folks … I’ve got a feeling we’re going for a bumpy ride.

Oh, yes, the tsunami has moved ashore. Like the civil war in its time this will set brother against brother in the same family and in the same church. And there is more to come. I have only skimmed the majority opinion but I have seem some statements that scare the wee pee out of my non-legal mind as to where else that sort of opinion and that line of reason could be used. All of which areas would be place where the churches would have to make some decisions.

My ‘episcopal church in the catholic tradition’ will pass through the fire on this one.

Lydia wrote:

Hee Hee. In my neck of the woods you are either Calvinist, Arminian or Heretic. I told one YRR it reminds me of the USSR where you were either an Imperialist or a Communist/Socialist or Mentally Ill. :o)

In my experience, ideology has no room for nuance. Whether the regime is religious or secular in nature it makes no difference. When worst comes to worse, guys like me are the first to wind up chained to a stake with kindling, or in more ‘enlightened times’, we usually end our days behind barbed wire.

@ Max:
You don’t think the rampant child abuse in many parts of the church is more of an issue than this? That this could, & should tip the balance?

Max wrote:

SCOTUS decision = America’s tipping point. When judgment begins, it will begin at the house of God. As the church goes, so goes the nation. This blog site has painted a portrait of an American church desperately off-track … ready for correction. Tighten your seat belts, folks … I’ve got a feeling we’re going for a bumpy ride.

Oh come ON. How can you say this? Millions of people were held in chattel slavery for centuries and no fire and brimstone rained from heaven. Native Americans were killed or rounded up and marched off to reservations and there was no lightning from the sky to stop that. Women did not have the right to vote or own property in our own names and the plagues of Egypt did not visit the United States of America. But God is going to judge the USA over gay marriage? I don’t think so.

That’s another reason why I’m done. Too many times the church has been on the absolute wrong side of issues and only changes its mind at the very last minute, if ever. (Cf. Doug Wilson of Idaho, who still has a thing for Southern slavery.)

@ LT:

LOL, LT! You cheated! I thought we only got 3-4 of our top complaints, not 19! But I totally agree with you 100%. Maybe we shouldn’t just stop with 3 or 4 items. Maybe we should just lay it all out, like Luther’s 95 theses? You print it out, I’ll go grab the nail and hammer. We’ll probably get sued/arrested for driving a nail into the church door, especially if it’s a glass door.

mirele wrote:

Too many times the church has been on the absolute wrong side of issues and only changes its mind at the very last minute

Actually, most of the time, five minutes after that.

@ Steve Scott:

That is exactly what I went through (minus adopting a special-needs child). And when we leave, WE are the ones blamed for forsaking the fellowship of believers. It’s never the other people who don’t want to even say hello. No, it must be OUR fault. We’re the ones violating that verse in Hebrews and are in grave sin. Apparently, keeping a bench warm is what fulfills that verse, not actually encouraging and extorting one another. But the entire point of gathering together is to encourage one another. So who are really the ones in sin and guilty of violating that verse? Hmmm, think, think, think….

@ mirele:

Well, there have been consequences to some of that. Yes there was slavery, and eventually this nation was almost destroyed by civil war. I do tend to see some cause and effect there. Yes, women were denied what we today consider basic rights, and now we have apparently a lot of women who are so angry right on-again it looks to me like consequences. People can call that God’s judgment or not, but I prefer to say consequences.

My experience is primarily the result of interaction with one church and yet I will forever be a Done. I don’t doubt there are “decent” churches out there somewhere and that there are good and bad people everywhere but as for me, my days of slaving to the institution of man made religion are forever done. One bad church CAN ruin the bunch.

1) Authoritarian, misogynistic pastor who openly mocks other members behind their backs

2) Gossip, including pastor and wife who engage in and perpetuate gossip about other members.

3) Elitist mentality- all about money and who you know. If a person is assumed “poor” they are lower class citizens within the church hierarchy

4) Political sermons masquerading as non-political sermons. Preacher instructing congregation who to vote for without ever actually saying the candidates name in subversive smart ass ways so arguments that he injected politics could be denied.

5) Brainwashing, manipulative tactics used to keep people in line and gas-lighting, stonewalling, and bullying for anyone who does not bend to their authority

6) Hypocrisy. Double talk. Using the Bible to harm others while claiming it provides “provisions” for their own wrongdoing or beliefs.

7) Dangerous and irresponsible attitude toward people living with mental illness including telling a suicidal person to either just do it already or suck it up and get over themselves

8) Fake. Sugary sweet people plastered with smiles, hugs, and hellos within the walls but as soon as the service is over they wouldn’t be caught dead speaking to the likes of you

9) Selective Redemption. Only those they consider worthy of redemption are considered redeemed. It is hardly coincidence that those they consider redeemed are usually the people who appear to have the most money and plenty of fancy material possessions

10) Hate. God hates all the same people they hate and if you do not, you are obviously not a Christian. If you go against them, you will be disparaged and shunned.

Max wrote:

To Beakerj and Mirele,
You both provide sufficient reasons why God’s judgment should have already visited America. I agonize in spirit as I think on those things. Our original citizens bore much persecution as we forcefully took “their” land; we captured and enslaved the citizens of other lands; our little ones have been abused; the blood of innocent millions have been shed; our national wickedness on several fronts has been immense; the Bible that shaped our moral code has been tossed aside; our national diplomacy no longer blesses Israel; our laws have liberated evil in the land. At some point, America’s sin will fill its appointed measure. If not now, when?

Yes, the Bible does say that every nation has a maximum measure of sin it can reach before God will judge it. (See Genesis 15:6, for example). Expressing worry that we’ve reached it is a very natural reaction to yet another decision of our nation to disobey God.

In fact, the book of Romans teaches that what is happening now IS God’s judgment. God hands a people over to sheer insanity when they reject Him as Creator. We are within three clicks of worshiping dung beetles. That will be next, I’m sure.

So it’s not like God is going to judge us now, finally, after this one thing. This thing, along with many previously occurring things, IS God’s judgment. He has been judging us all along, and I fear it will only get worse unless we repent.

Mirele, regarding hell, I’m sorry that you were abused such that it was used to control and drive constant fear in you. Nevertheless, earliest, orthodox Christianity has always taught hell. Justin Martyr, an early apologists to the Greek philosophers of his age, argued for it at length. He argued that unless there are eternal consequences to our actions in this life, then virtue is meaningless. Even if hell only lasted a short time, then virtue would still be meaningless. Because then you could just do whatever feels good now, receiving your reward early, pay up later for a while (however long hell lasts), and either be annihilated or enter heaven (depending on your point of view). The virtuous merely receive their reward later, and their suffering earlier, making everything meaningless. There is no incentive to be virtuous when you can have your cake and eat it too. We might as well all be like Adolph Hitler–if it feels good, do it, even if it hurts others.

I highly encourage you to read Justin Martyr’s First and Second Apologies for his reasoning. I hope you find it both healing and enlightening.

By the way, are you thinking of Carl Tuttle? His home church (John Wimber’s) was my childhood church. FYI, Carl Tuttle was yet another pastor busted for adultery and abusing his family. He stepped down. I hope he repented sincerely, and that it wasn’t just a show. I know he had a rough childhood, and learned bad behavior from his own father. Still, whether he realizes it or not, he hurt a lot of people, because he was one of the pastors who counseled my family and basically sided with my abusive father. I hope he repented. After it all went down, I always felt bad for his kids. I knew his oldest from my home school group. He was one of the nicest PKs. That had to hurt to have to hide all the problems that were going on at home, just to keep up good appearances.

@ Muff Potter:

Muff, We watched “Red Army” last night with the kids. The documentary about the USSR Hockey Team and that miraculous USA win at Lake Placid. Great history lesson with the kids about how things worked…how we believe you can be an “individual on a team”…… the opposite of what many pastors are telling people: there are no individuals in the Body. Just s the documentary shows there were no “individuals” on the USSR Hockey team. The state owned them as a collective and the fruit of their labor.

The 14 year old said, “Gee, they (USSR) treated them like a lot of churches treat people if they speak up and disagree”.

I kid you not. So glad they see the parallels in thought control.

Great documentary, btw. So many life and history lessons!

Max wrote:

At some point, America’s sin will fill its appointed measure. If not now, when?

Seriously–I ask again–over gay marriage? When there are many worse things, like child abuse covered up in the churches? Jesus pointed out that God sends rain on the just and unjust (Matt. 5:45). Why do we need to see some sort of sign of divine displeasure?

Muff Potter wrote:

But we’ve learned from our mistakes regarding both Native & African Americans, and yes I agree our old policies were egregious. Nonetheless, I also believe that she (America) is still the best act to ever hit the World stage. Why else do the downstrata of the third world risk life, limb, and everything they have to get here?

Good words. I agree. Who knew those famous declared words would be taken so seriously and come back to show our hypocrisy over and over. It took too long but we lived up to them. All are created equal.

@ Mae:

Thanks Mae!

Corbin wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Three guesses what’s going to be SCREAMED from a lot of pulpits this coming Sunday? You near-Dones might want to stay home or go full-honk Done over the next two days, because there’s going to be some real Bad Craziness reactions coming down the chute.

I’m getting my popcorn ready…..

I haven’t checked with my writing partner (the burned-out country preacher) but I expect he’ll be dusting off the same sermon he used after the 2008 elections:
“DON’T GO STUPID ON ME!”

William wrote:

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I am a done and I don’t agree with the SC’s decision. Are you assuming that “dones” are going to uniformly agree with the approval of “gay marriage”? I’ll bet many do not.

No, just after this little piece of news a lot of churches are going to get stuck on stupid and act crazy for a while, and until the aftershocks settle you might want to take shelter.

Because here’s what a lot of services are going to look like for a while:
https://youtu.be/cD8RAhCAyt4?t=30s

Max wrote:

At some point, America’s sin will fill its appointed measure. If not now, when?

So people getting married and forming stable protected families is going be the tipping point for your god to get angry and cause change? Not the slaughter or ravaging of the Native Americans. Not it building a country on the backs of slaves. No you’re pulling that out in response to loving couples getting legal protection. You sir worship a monster.

Albuquerque Blue wrote:

Not it building a country on the backs of slaves.

Nobody built a country on the backs of slaves. At least the northern yankees assure us that they had no part in that. And the west was not a bunch of slave states, and the majority of nation building came after the industrial revolution and due to the said i.r. and this was not dependent on slave labor. Even the most radical of southerners do not claim that the slave states ‘built the country.’

Ok, I don’t know how it is that my post above came out that way. Please just read the latter paragraph.

@ Albuquerque Blue:

Like I said above (if it gets out of moderation):

Sex makes people act stupid, and HOMOSEXUALITY(TM) makes Christians act crazy.

Nancy2 wrote:

I refuse to do anything at church anymore. Backbone, brains, and education are worthless if you don’t literally have a pair of balls, too. Most churches are run by men, for men. Women are marginalized and kept on the outer peripheries. My husband’s relentless dedication to church combined with his completely shutting me out of all decisions, including decisions that directly affected me, almost led us to divorce court. We are working to save our marriage, so I only attend church to keep my husband happy.
*There are men at our church who make fun of my husband because I usually drive when we go somewhere in my car.
*There are men who make remarks about how women are not allowed to usurp the men’s authority every chance they get.
*Last Sunday, our pastor (a truly wonderful man who is leaving, btw) remarked that we had great teachers in church … Another man said, “Don’t forget about the women.”
*Last night, a man joked that there won’t be any women in heaven because Rev. 8:1 says there will be silence for half an hour. Hardy-har-har. He sooo funny!
I can’t decide whether I should make a fashion statement by wearing a burka to church, or a collar and a leash!

Nancy, I hear your frustration, really I do. That Christian sect we belonged to was misogynistic in the most extreme sense of the meaning of that word. I would suggest that since those folks at your husband’s church are not going to change their minds anytime soon, that you just be YOURSELF while you are there. Don’t even be concerned about what they might think of you, because the fact is that whether you are silent or whether you speak, their view of women, and by extension their view of you will not change. You are free and do not have to be subject to their caricatures. And I pray that your marriage will somehow be unleashed from the effects of that patriarchal environment.

Nancy wrote:

Albuquerque Blue wrote:

Not it building a country on the backs of slaves.

Nobody built a country on the backs of slaves. At least the northern yankees assure us that they had no part in that. And the west was not a bunch of slave states, and the majority of nation building came after the industrial revolution and due to the said i.r. and this was not dependent on slave labor. Even the most radical of southerners do not claim that the slave states ‘built the country.’

According to African American Harvard educated and Prof Emeritus at Duke, John Hope Franklin, in “From Slavery to Freedom” (McGraw-Hill, 1994) less than 5% of Whites in the South owned slaves.

From a purely economic aspect, that was going to be an economic disaster even without the war. The Industrial Revolution was late to the South because of their own ignorance.

@ Nancy:

And what year was it all those women died in a factory fire because they were locked in? Early 1900’s?

Clay Crouch wrote:

To all the Dones, the Episcopal Church welcomes you! No screaming, no shouting, no fear mongering. Word and Sacrament. Short sermons. The world doesn’t come to an end if you miss a Sunday or two or six. You will be respected and treated like an adult. No membership covenants to sign. A few of things you might have to get used to: women in real leadership positions, gay folks in the pews and pulpits, and no fog machines. Try it, you just might be surprised.

Done did it! (And not surprised, and now not “done.”)

@ Ken:
Oh, Ken….

@ mirele:
I agree,

I’m a “done”. I couldn’t stand the authoritarian men at my church that tried to silence me and didn’t appreciate my talents. However, I think I was even more irritated with the women who believed and went along with that nonsense.

@ Nancy:
Boston and other parts of New England: as HUG swid, fortunes were built there through the slave trade. A lot,of those supposedly upright descendants of Puritans were no better than they ought to be, as they say in England.

Patrice wrote:

Virtue isn’t worthwhile because it allows us to avoid punishment, but because it is the most life-giving way to live. It is what brings peace/satisfaction. It is, in fact, its own reward. If we bargain for virtue and vice, then we’ve lost before we’ve begun.

I think about Abraham Maslow’s ideas on ethics and his thinking that only an extremely small portion of the population does good because it is good. Most do good for other reasons if at all. If the value of doing good is limited to that small segment of the population, then not much good will be done. I am thinking that doing good (virtue if you please) is worthwhile regardless of the motives behind it because it impacts a lot of more lives than just the person who does it. I used to hear in church that unless you have the right motives it does no good to do good. Except, I hear Jesus talking about judgment in terms of where you when I was in difficulty (hungry, naked, in prison) and I don’t see any excuse for failing to do good based on ‘my motives were not right.’ If and only if the only reason for virtue is it’s effect on the individual, then maybe motive would be at the top of my list, but it is more complicated than that.

@ Okrapod:
Textile mills were a huge thing in 19th c. New England, and if you look nto the history of that (with cotton supplied by the South), there is also much ugliness and inhumane treatment of workers, as with the textile industry in the South.

Max wrote:

At some point, the cup of national iniquity will be full and God acts.

That must be some kind of insider-ese because I have no idea what that means. And nevermind, I don’t want to know.

Max wrote:

SCOTUS today turned a deaf ear to numerous voices in the Christian community which reminded the justices repeatedly that God’s definition of marriage is between a man and a woman.

I am delighted these Christians’ voices were ignored because they are a deeply confused bunch. They believe that a democratic republic should legislate exactly what they think their religion dictates.

Not only is that extremely self-centered of them, but it is against our founding principles of separation bet church/state.

I’d love to send them all through a year’s course of Civics and Politics.

@ Patrice:
A ,lot of them might never have taken a single semester of civics…

Okrapod wrote:

This other is getting too confusing, and besides it is a southern thing.

Just to be clear, I have a hard time learning names.

Nancy => Okrapod
Nancy2 => Nancy2

?

@ Okrapod:
I thought you did? Seriously confused! (I guess you are Nancy?)

Hello okra pod, sorry for the confusion about the double identity. I can change my name, too, if you wish!

Hello Darlene! Thank you for the encouragement.
My husband and I did come within weeks of divorcing. He went to an SBC affiliated Bible college (3 years after he retired from the military) and I turned into chattel ….. it worked kinda like putting a frog in a pan of water, then putting the pan on the stove. … I was the frog. My husband gradually started making decisions that Had direct affects on my mental and physical health without even telling me, let alone consulting me! He told other people, but not me! When I “rebelled” and started taking a stand, he packed his stuff and left. I convinced him to see a marriage counselor, and he came back, apologized, etc. ( btw, our pastor stood up for me!). We are working on our marriage, though I am still wary. I think, given a little time (and my intentional, premeditated behavior), my husband will see the ungodly bias in our church. Either way, I will be fine. I grew up a tomboy farm girl, and God blessed me with an ornery streak!

Gay Marriage??? At least that involves 2 consenting adults. Abusing children, brainwashing adults, and cover-ups?? That’s a whole different ball game!
Come what may, I will be fine.

Okrapod wrote:

….only an extremely small portion of the population does good because it is good. Most do good for other reasons if at all. If the value of doing good is limited to that small segment of the population, then not much good will be done.

I suppose it depends what we are meaning by virtue and good. By virtue, I mean all those actions that promote health in ourselves and others. By good, I think of those acts of charity, hospitality, rescuing the wounded on the side of the road, etc—-the sort of actions that are more focused on others’ benefits.

Okrapod wrote:

I am thinking that doing good (virtue if you please) is worthwhile regardless of the motives behind it because it impacts a lot of more lives than just the person who does it.

Yeah, we are deeply social creatures and are more inclined to be virtuous and good when our community encourages it.

So for eg, Bill Black, a white collar criminologist, talks about the reverse/perverse incentives in the finance community, where fraud is rewarded and honesty sidelines a person. Ethical people have been slipping away from that industry for a long time because they can not make a living while maintaining integrity. This only intensified the problem, of course, until corruption took down the global economy in 07-08.

It has been fascinating to read about problems in economics while also reading about problems in Evangelicalism. They are very similar!

Okrapod wrote:

I used to hear in church that unless you have the right motives it does no good to do good….I don’t see any excuse for failing to do good based on ‘my motives were not right.’….

I don’t think motives are all that importance, either, although neither are they without value. Results are important, though. If virtue produces satisfying results, we will be inclined to continue. The principles that make up virtue are not arbitrary, after all, but are those things that are most life-giving for us….

So why do we not always want to do what’s better for us?

I’m actually an Almost-Done. If this last church hadn’t worked out, I am pretty sure I’d be worshipping outside of an institutional congregation. These are my personal top reasons.

#1
Secondary issues being stressed (please let us know which ones), namely:
– patriarchal teaching & Stepford Wivery
– 6 day creation or “not really saved”
– official church member or “not really saved”

#2
Nouthetic Counseling
– to the exclusion of other licensed Christian counselors
– to the extent of training a large percentage of the congregation to become practitioners of such counseling (aka license to judge issued to many)

#3
Authoritarian leadership, which I will use as an umbrella to include
– unreasonable church discipline
– 9Marks membership and policies
– board of elder toadies

#4
Nepotism in church leadership

#5
Debatable budgeting practices

#6’s (the rest all fall together, ’cause 1-5 were quite enough!)
-Pastor doesn’t know my name after 6 years
-I feel like my talents are ignored (beyond ignored, actually rejected when offered)
-members held us at arm’s length because they knew we hadn’t yet signed on the dotted line
– church leaders running after the current fashion (Rick Warren and the church growth movement, Mark Driscoll and the hip-to-be-lewd gang, rise of J Piper and neopuritanism, 9Marks, Acts 29, who knows what’s next….oh yeah…the Dones!)

Here’s what kept us in organized church:
#1
maybe sum this up as sound theology?
A wise pastoral staff that focuses on essentials of the faith while allowing for different perspectives on secondary issues AND an egalitarian valuation of all members of the congregation.

#2
Wanted to participate with others in worship AND offer our child a place to learn to be embraced by and learn to love the body of Christ.

Hope these responses are helpful. I look forward to reading about your complied data.

Patrice wrote:

So for eg, Bill Black, a white collar criminologist, talks about the reverse/perverse incentives in the finance community, where fraud is rewarded and honesty sidelines a person. Ethical people have been slipping away from that industry for a long time because they can not make a living while maintaining integrity. This only intensified the problem, of course, until corruption took down the global economy in 07-08.

Yes and our own government allows the rewarding of CEO’s with millions while they bail out their failures. It is perverse. It is Fascism.

@ numo:
Haven’t watched because i think i would cry the whole way through and have nightmares. Literally. Such a horrendous thing. (I can take certain things, but not movies like The Killing Fields, docus about the Holocaust, etc. Have seen too many, and once seen, images can’t easily be forgotten.)

On slavery in America: There were white slaves, too. One of my ggg-grandfathers (Irish) was kidnapped and brought here as an indentured servant.

On gay marriages: (sarcasm) If a gay couple attends church, will the marriage be complementarian??? If so, how will they know which one is the authority and which one is to submit??? Everyone will be so confused!

Nancy wrote:

Nobody built a country on the backs of slaves. At least the northern yankees assure us that they had no part in that. And the west was not a bunch of slave states, and the majority of nation building came after the industrial revolution and due to the said i.r. and this was not dependent on slave labor. Even the most radical of southerners do not claim that the slave states ‘built the country.’

Oh that’s flatly untrue, Nancy.

The website Yale Slavery points out, with regards to famous Colonial preacher Jonathan Edwards: “Edwards had a point: There was no escaping the influence of slavery in colonial times. Not only did most prominent colonial leaders have slaves, but most financial transactions, including many of Yale’s original endowments, depended at some point on slavery.”

http://www.yaleslavery.org/WhoYaleHonors/je.html

@ mirele:
Yes. And Methodist leader George Whitefield was instrumental in *reintroducing* slavery to Georgia. Sick as that is, it’s 100% true.

Easy to find info. on all of these things, from both primary and secondary sources…

@ Nancy2:
Indentured servants signed over their right to personal freedom for a specific number of years, very often in order to pay off debts. This is NOT the same thing as chattel slavery, where human beings are the literal property of the person who owns them, have no rights, and can be treated however the “owner” wants. They have no recourse.

White people were indentured, but they were a) white and b) seen as human beings, even if very badly treated during the period of indenture. And c) they could live as free agents after the indenture ended. None of the freedom they were working toward was ever a hope for those held in chattel slavery.

Lydia wrote:

Yes and our own government allows the rewarding of CEO’s with millions while they bail out their failures. It is perverse. It is Fascism.

According to the Guardian, “It’s socialism for the rich and capitalism for the rest of us in Britain”, and not only in Britain: http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/aug/29/socialism-for-the-rich , and I can’t disagree with the article.

mirele wrote:

Oh that’s flatly untrue, Nancy.

Exactly what all is not true? Are you saying that the south built the nation and that was because they had slaves? Or are you saying that the north was in on it up to their eyebrows and might as well own up to it? Or all of the above?

Okrapod wrote:

Exactly what all is not true? Are you saying that the south built the nation and that was because they had slaves? Or are you saying that the north was in on it up to their eyebrows and might as well own up to it? Or all of the above?

“There is none righteous, no not one.” In other words, the American economy was built on a number of foundations, including, but not limited to: taking land from Native Americans and importing slave labor and paying free people poorly.

Patrice wrote:

This doesn’t make sense to me. Virtue isn’t worthwhile because it allows us to avoid punishment, but because it is the most life-giving way to live.

Tell that to all those preachers for whom God has no reason to exist other than to PUNISH! PUNISH! PUNISH! PUNISH! PUNISH!

And they’ll be coming out of the woodwork after yesterday’s SCOTUS decision.
Just like they did every time the Cold War heated up a bit.

Patrice wrote:

Max wrote:

At some point, the cup of national iniquity will be full and God acts.

That must be some kind of insider-ese because I have no idea what that means. And nevermind, I don’t want to know.

It means God mind-shtoonking Putin and Xi (and whoever’s Caliph of ISIS this week) to send Thermonuclear Annihilation down on America for our SINS! SINS! SINS!

You heard that kind of crap all over Christianese radio during the late Cold War.
“GAWD’s JUDGMENT FOR AMERICA’S SINS SITS READY AND WAITING IN THE NUCLEAR MISSILE SILOS OF THE SOVIET UNION!!!!!!!!”
i.e. Do What *I* Say or GAWD *WILL* PUNISH YOU!
Where God is nothing more that The Biggest Spiked Boot holding The Biggest Whip.

Gram3 wrote:

@ Gram3:
My apologies if my previous comment was too OT and should have been posted at ODP. The thinking behind the comment was whether there is some similarity between the authoritarianism which seems to be driving so many of us away from church and the authoritarianism of government. That is the tenuous connection.

Fascism is Fascism (rule by Control Freaks), whether it comes from the Left, the Right, or the Pulpit.

And as said in different words by C.S.Lewis and Joss Whedon, rule by Control Freaks convinced of their own Righteousness is the worst of all.

Stopping by for a moment…
I was at a large audiovisual trade show recently (almost 40K attendees) and one of the evening receptions was hosted by Church Technical Leaders. I considered going in but the demographic seemed to be all youngish early 30-somethings.
I seems we throw out maturity and wisdom for the young, hip and ignorant (and works for less money).

I have a comment, then a question to any and all readers:

One thing I have mentioned a couple times recently-and others have mentioned- is the pastor who avoids doctrine from the pulpit. He usually mentions the need to keep it light for those who don’t believe and those who are new Christians.

However, my pastor often “goes deep” when preaching about tithing, going verse by verse (in the Old Testament)to show us our need to give at least 10% to the local church. Plus extra for missions, missions trips, teen camp, building fund, and pastor appreciation Sunday (asked for by other staff members). And no, I am not falling for it. Not anymore…

Has anyone else seen this trend in their own local church or is it just a TV trend that has also slipped into my locale?

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

And as said in different words by C.S.Lewis and Joss Whedon, rule by Control Freaks convinced of their own Righteousness is the worst of all.

I would like to reply to that on the ODP.

@ numo:

We’ll just have to agree to disagree amiably numes. The idea of one’s own goodness being rooted in sin is a staple of Lutheran thought. It holds that ‘sin nature’ is always humankind’s default condition, and that any ‘divine nature’ is only a titular reference at best. It derives its impetus from Augustine’s ‘doctrine of original sin’ which I now flatly reject.

@ Muff Potter:
apologies for assuming you knew what I was thinking, btw! 😉

Gram3 wrote:

Blessings to both of you!

Thanks for the prayer and blessings!

@ mirele:

Not sure what we should expect from such early Yale supporters and organizers as the Puritanical Cotton and Increase Mather! :o) Thank goodness most eventually moved away from that thinking.

Roadwork wrote:

Stopping by for a moment…
I was at a large audiovisual trade show recently (almost 40K attendees) and one of the evening receptions was hosted by Church Technical Leaders. I considered going in but the demographic seemed to be all youngish early 30-somethings.
I seems we throw out maturity and wisdom for the young, hip and ignorant (and works for less money).

Ah, I think I know what show you were attending. I follow the discussions on CTL as well, and have to bite my tongue at times, but I do try to keep up on what’s happening in the church tech community…

With that said, when I was in college studying, well, a major related to this field, I was thinking about trying to work at a church in a technology role. After graduating and starting work in a secular field, as I learned more about the issues in a significant number of megachurches, and as I came to adopt theological views (e.g. of gender) and came to certain realizations about myself that would make me anathema in the largely conservative megachurch job marketplace, I put that dream to rest. It was painful at the time, but in the end – especially after following the trends here for a while – I think it was for the best that I’m no longer considering pursuing that path.

Heads up: I replied to Gram3’s reply to me, transferring the discussion to the open thread.

Lydia wrote:

History is a long series of man grabbing power where he can.

And that is the radical nature of the Kingdom, isn’t it? That it is not based on personal or tribal power? It isn’t even based on economics/greed because there is no scarcity in the Father’s house. If we boil down the comments on these two threads, isn’t that what people are basically saying?

The abuse of this family by the regional hierarchy in this denomination is appalling.
http://theaquilareport.com/an-overview-and-assessment-of-the-opc-general-assembly-in-the-appeal-of-john-carrick/

I have been done for many years. But what solidified it for me was:

1) misogyny. The desperate sustained effort to cling to the rules of an ancient near east culture that say I may not speak/teach/hold authority over a man.

2) The stupid obsession and refusal to acknowledge the difference between civil law and religious freedom. Constant fear mongering about “the gay lifestyle” and abortion. But ZERO action to assist without obnoxious and condescending strings attached.

3) Hypocrisy.

*hitching your political wagons to bigots
*saying that my salvation is tied to how I vote.
*asking me to deny the validity of science for some backwards tribal thinking about creating a planet in 7 calendar days.
*defending the empire at all costs
*openly ignoring the core tenets of the faith to make people with less power be silent.
*the mental gymnastics in the very idea of a mega church and a giant concert every week instead of worship

It goes on and on.

The kicker and final blow for me is this: marriage equality.

Gram3 wrote:

And that is the radical nature of the Kingdom, isn’t it? That it is not based on personal or tribal power? It isn’t even based on economics/greed because there is no scarcity in the Father’s house. If we boil down the comments on these two threads, isn’t that what people are basically saying?

Yes, absolutely. And this is one reason I simply cannot call what I see happening around me, Christianity. Because so much of it is based on power, control, greed, ego, etc yet packaged within a redefined box of orthodoxy. It seems using Jesus Christ (or religion) is a convenient and easier way to such power. It is the antithesis of what He was about.

It is hard to list all the reasons that I am a “done”.
Sermons that were boring – or stupid – or wrong – or based on made up stories – or just so elementary that they were insulting my intelligence.
Pastors who thought a lot of themselves, and it was obviously without reason. They didn’t work nearly as hard as most members of the church, thought they were “masters” rather than servers, “nobility of the church”
Music that was awful. I didn’t like it when I was young either. I have a brain, and like the music to mean something. And not be repeated over and over and over and over and over again. And not loud. And not a concert that is a performance. I want worship.
No fellowship in church. EVER. Fellowship is *after* so called church.
No taking advantage of my talents.
Leaders that “rotated” among themselves, and were picked because they were family members of current leaders, or were rich.
Sunday Schools that were aimed at people with an IQ of 70 (if that).
I was in a church for 15 years and had NO elders or pastors come to visit my family.
Pastors that actually had offices on a locked floor of the building – you had to get an appointment and get escorted in to see them.
Pastors that kept getting vacations and money poured on them as though they were “wonderful” – when they actually wrote books about how the pastor shouldn’t work too hard.
Pastors that thought that they were better at interpreting the Greek and Hebrew of the Bible than the experts that had translated it. Apparently 2 semesters of Greek and Hebrew count for a lot!
Pastors that ignored the effect of child abuse on children in the congregation while telling everyone they were taking care of it.
Pastors that took advantage of their position to make money by buying (using church money) books that they were publishing. (And the books were worse than awful. It sounds just like awful, but it is spelled differently.)
Pastors that bragged about having 3 degrees (actually an associates degree from a non-accredited school, a BA and a MS). When talking to a physician.
Pastors that talked other pastors in a different church from allowing someone to join – by spreading lies.
Pastors that spread lies about their being “marriage problems” – about friends who did not have any such problems.
Pastors that wrote letters with lies in them and then signed them with the names of people who had never even seen the letter while sending them out to many people in the church.
I could go on for a long long time.

Would I go back?
Probably, if I found a pastor I trusted. I haven’t yet.

Clockwork Angel wrote:

@ Steve Scott:

That is exactly what I went through (minus adopting a special-needs child). And when we leave, WE are the ones blamed for forsaking the fellowship of believers. It’s never the other people who don’t want to even say hello. No, it must be OUR fault. We’re the ones violating that verse in Hebrews and are in grave sin. Apparently, keeping a bench warm is what fulfills that verse, not actually encouraging and extorting one another. But the entire point of gathering together is to encourage one another. So who are really the ones in sin and guilty of violating that verse? Hmmm, think, think, think….

Yes, it is amazing that Hebrews 10:25b, which is not even in the imperative (i.e. a command) has become the evangelical 11th commandment of “thou shalt go to church on Sunday,”, while the rest of the passage that deals with what we’re actually supposed to be doing when we do meet is completely ignored. A pretty strong case of straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Bill M wrote:

People trust their own guy, as if they knew who he was.

Yes, I think that is certainly true. Based on my own personal experience with cognitive dissonance, I will project that every one else does the same sort of accommodation that I do. It is my opinion, however, that kind of heuristic thinking does not ultimately serve the pursuit of what is good and true. At least not in this life. Just think of all the spheres where Orthodoxy trumps thinking about whether the content of that Orthodoxy is true or good or just. ISTM that many of the advances we have made were by people who were willing to think outside the box and color outside the lines. Not for the sake of being unorthodox but for the sake of pursuing what is true.

Mae wrote:

Sorry Dave A A……I too have serious health issues. ( two forms of cancer. I might miss all church activities for months at a time, due to chemo treatments.
Our former church used this against me in many ways.

In my church, if you were unable to attend because of chronic illness, they could send lay Eucharistic Ministers or a Deacon to give Communion to you, or maybe even a pastoral visit from one of the Assistant Pastors.

Also, today St Boniface was a place of refuge from the SCOTUS decision uproar. The Gospel today was about the Raising of Jairus’ Daughter and the homily/sermon built on it with Christ as Victor over Death and the grave.

It was Fr Nyugen’s last Mass as one of our Assistant Pastors; he was being transferred to a Vietnamese ethnic parish in central OC and there was a farewell reception in the parish hall after Mass. Announcements from our Pastor were that the Diocese had agreed to pay the lion’s share of needed repairs and refurbishing of our 60-year-old church building and work would commence next month.

Christina wrote:

Am I the only one who has noticed churches only build in nice neighborhoods?

In my city, in the ghetto neighborhoods the very nice and well kept structures consist of churches, schools and government buildings next to falling down structures and crack houses. It always blows my mind.

Gram3 wrote:

In reading some here, I wonder if people are as concerned about the totalist left as they are about the totalist right?

I am.

I’m a done because:
1) Denial of scientific truth
2) Intolerance of any other belief or faith – or denomination for that matter!
3) Stance on political issues – particularly gay marriage (“the Homosexual Agenda” spot played in church from Focus on the Family sounded a little too fascist for my liking)
4) Gender inequality. My wife IS my equal, in every single way.

@Gram3 Thanks for your comment! If what I wrote helps anyone else reading, I’m happy.

To amend above, ‘air of entitlement’ would be amongst many, not all, males. There are many lovely women at the church married/otherwise related to/working for men in the church, who seem to find it difficult to see things from another perspective; for them, ‘church family’ is no hollow term and they lack no advocates in times of trouble. Also, the ‘no such thing as a perfect church’ trope that left me invalidated for such a long while, in addition to being a long way from perfection myself, until I came upon the response ‘but there is such a thing as a healthy church’ to help explain why I couldn’t stay although there is still much good about my former church. It just wasn’t healthy for me, since the things I was witnessing, being confided in about and experiencing disturbed my spirit mightily but I didn’t seem to even have the vocabulary to express it or dare to do so, given the gilded reputation of the church. I’m still sorting things out in terms of where God would like me to be, but wanted to make clear that even a soft authoritarian approach can shock a dedicated church-goer clean out of orbit when life events shake her trust in so many ways, save for the Saviour.

And apologies to all for the all-caps, I hate reading them myself, it was just so difficult to write the post, it was a way of dragging the words out of me somehow onto the screen.

Christina wrote:

Am I the only one who has noticed churches only build in nice neighborhoods? And the pastors never have to deal with actual problems?

Here’s a story for you….at my last church (an A29 Mars Hill clone church) the 30-something lead pastor lived in a toney neighborhood. One day he proclaimed from the pulpit that he had moved so that he could more better minister to the people that needed ministering. Excited that a pastor was actually walking his walk and had moved to a depressed area of town, I did a little investigating and found that he had only moved a few blocks away, still in his Golden Ghetto.

I also lived with a famous Gospel Coalition and Reformed blogger in Dallas in an attempt to try to get community and a mentor. She is buddy buddy with the Chandlers. Worst roommate experience ever. She sent me a 5-page email at work one day telling me everything she didn’t like about me, told I needed to repent and copied my home group leader on it. She never once bothered having a personal conversation with me about it. She also told me I had to move out if I didn’t follow the rules in the letter. I ended up moving out, even though legally I had the right to stay. She never gave me my deposit back.

@ Christina:

Oh and this celebrity blogger just moved to Denver where I now live for a leadership position at one of the A29 churches. Scary. I am staying as far away from A29 as I can from now on. If your leadership style involves passive aggressive tactics like sending an email instead of having the balls to tell the person to their face and copying people who aren’t involved on the email, then I don’t want to be under your leadership.Just because someone can write about the Gospel TM, doesn’t mean they have a grasp of it to the point where they treat people like Jesus. A29 is a cancer, and if you are not in the clique, then you are out.

raswhiting wrote:

The abuse of this family by the regional hierarchy in this denomination is appalling.
http://theaquilareport.com/an-overview-and-assessment-of-the-opc-general-assembly-in-the-appeal-of-john-carrick/

Thank you for the update about this family’s story. It is good to hear that the appeal has been upheld. Such a pity that a church could be so lacking in compassion towards this minister and, especially, his wife.

Why I am done with one Church, the Presbyterian Church of Australia. Well most of you know that already. However, I am not ‘done with them yet’. I fight on from outside the Church. I am watching God maneuvering the domino pieces into place and I am waiting for the moment when He says ‘PUSH’. I now attend a Baptist Church, not like the U.S. Southern Baptists. I need the Spiritual support of other believers, I know the Church I attend is where God wants me. I could never go back to a complementarian Church I am horrified by their narrow minded interpretation of Scripture and their blindness to the corruption and non-accountability of the male leadership.

@ Clockwork Angel:

I would also like to add to my post above regarding eternal punishment, that the Greek and Roman society into which Christianity was born also had no issues with the idea of annihilation. Hence, Justin Martyr’s reasoning on hell in his apologies. The belief that they would, sooner or later, cease to exist led the citizens of the Roman empire to do whatever pleased them. The entire society degraded into seeking one’s own pleasure, often at the expense of the poor. The rich pursued gluttony to the point of vomiting their food only to return to the banquet to eat even more, while the poor had nothing to eat. People were enslaved, and could be sold to the Colosseum to be used as fodder for the gladiators, all for entertainment.

In this society, virtue meant nothing, and got you nowhere. In fact, it was the practice of virtue that got Christians slandered and persecuted, because their way of life so shamed the pagans around them, making them angry at the pricking of their consciences. The only incentive to persist in Christianity, and the virtue it demanded, was the hope of future reward from Jesus.

If annihilation is true, then these Christians suffered for virtue’s sake for nothing. They could have enjoyed the vanity fair around them and oppressed their neighbors for their own gain, with only a temporary punishment at best awaiting them, followed by annihilation. Shucks, I’ve talked to people living in the worst kinds of sins, and they told me they that they know they will suffer eternal punishment for it, but they feel that it is worth it to have the pleasure of sin now, even though that pleasure is temporary. If that’s how people react to an eternal hell, then how much less will they regard virtue if temporary punishment and annihilation is true?

I once again encourage those struggling with the idea of eternal punishment to read the early Christian apologies against the debaucherous Greco-Roman society. The Greeks and Romans did not like the idea of eternal punishment. Your objections are not new to history. Give these early Christians a chance to reason with you. You might be surprised not only for their reasoning, but also for a love of Christian virtue that surpassed anything you’ve seen in Western churches today. Their virtue caused them to sell themselves into slavery if it meant redeeming another Christian from slavery. They’d call church-wide fasts so they could afford to send food to another region’s church that was starving to death. They took care of their widows, orphans, the lame, the blind, the sick, the unemployed, etc. These people loved one another. They even loved their enemies, going out during plagues to take care of dying plague victims and risking contracting the plague themselves, even though the people they treated hated them. Give them a chance to persuade you, to show you the meaning of virtue like you’ve never seen practiced in a modern, western church. Contrast that with the society in which they lived, and you may at last realize why punishment and rewards are eternal.

We are not “done” although the institutional church would probably say that about us because we are trying to start organic community(ies) in our neighborhood and in a friend’s neighborhood and it’s a slow tedious process.

We “left” the institutional church because of the following:
– Authoritarian leadership: the ironic thing was that i was a “leader” but pushed out and silenced when i dissented from the lead pastor / lead pastor began to posture himself in a self-protection mode after this.
– lack of emphasis on mission/kingdom / talked a big game but never did anything and even held back church members who were trying to be on mission.
– boring sermons (my pastor friend who is a PHD and megachurch pastor even offered to provide some constructive criticism and he was treated like a simpleton who had never heard good preaching and wouldn’t be able to give good advice.
– bad theology : too much emphasis on authority, too much introspection / failure to see and meet needs in the community.
– dishonesty from lead pastor and manipulation on multiple fronts and failure to repent

All of that is actually not why i decided to post today. I found this article yesterday by John Pavlovitz and found it very comforting. I wanted to share it with you guys “dones” who feel just out of sync / like something is missing on sundays.

http://johnpavlovitz.com/2015/06/07/for-those-who-struggle-on-sundays/

Christina wrote:

Just because someone can write about the Gospel TM, doesn’t mean they have a grasp of it to the point where they treat people like Jesus. A29 is a cancer, and if you are not in the clique, then you are out.

I’m sorry that you had this experience…stuff like this is a common theme w/ A29 churches. In my former business, i had dealings w/ two of the most arrogant people that i have met in my life – both acts 29 “lead pastors”. I use quotes because i don’t believe lead pastor is a biblical term. They were bullies. I don’t know the celebrity blogger, but do know a lot of people that know her. I read one post by her about being “covered” by a male pastor authority and I was out. I hope that she seeks you out and repents. I hope for your sake, you have been able to forgive her and forget about her and the damage she’s done. I know it’s so hard to do and the pain caused by men in A29 has led to much bitterness i’ve had to move on from. The “cancer” of A29 kicks in when you leave and the negative bitterness, confusion, and frustrations take hold and everything “church” seems dark and cloudy.

@ Mike Green:
That’s an excellent explanation of CJ and how SGM got started. I remember when I finally realized that SGM was like the monarchy and CJ was the king.

Mike Green wrote:

Over 230 years ago, Americans fought a War of Independence to get free from the British monarchy. We won our independence, our right to vote for our own representatives in the legislature that determines the laws we all will live under, because the King of England was a corrupt, selfish, money-grubbing tyrant.

Ironically, i am friends w/ some political libertarians on Facebook that are involved in authoritarian / hierarchal churches including “supporting” Mars Hill until the very end. I don’t think they saw the irony.

justin wrote:

Ironically, i am friends w/ some political libertarians on Facebook that are involved in authoritarian / hierarchal churches including “supporting” Mars Hill until the very end. I don’t think they saw the irony.

Perhaps they are actually closet Reconstructionists. They sound confused.

mirele wrote:

I think the doctrine of hell is wrong

May I run this past you? I noticed you have studied law. One of the purposes of law is to estabilish guilt with a view to punishment or restitution. I think the idea of judgement and hell are analogous with a criminal trial and sentencing to a very large degree.

A God of love could never be indifferent to the suffering human beings inflict on each other. To ignore the guilty and just let them off would be an act of injustice. Isn’t part of the Christian hope that all the wrongs will one day be righted?

Those brought before a human court and found guilty are just that. Those judged by God are not innocent. They will be judged on their works, what they have actually done. God’s judgement made with perfect knowledge of the facts will be absolutely just.

I would define hell as being excluded for ever from the presence of God. The bible uses contradictory metaphors to describe this – images of burning, of darkness like an eternal grave, of lostness. It does use the word torment, but not torture.

It is not as though God has not provided an amnestry for us all as guilty of breaking his standards. Hell is not inevitable, and forgivennes may be received by faith to avoid it. In presenting the gospel in Acts, however, this was never used as a threat, it – like the love of God – was never mentioned.

Those who refuse this offer and who ‘love unrighteousness’ would hate to be in the presence of a holy God for ever.

I too have had close relatives who have died without any obvious repentance and faith; sometimes occasioned in part by the hypocrisy of the local ‘church’ (more like dead religion). But none of us will be judged on what others failed to do, we will all have to give an account of ourselves and our own actions.

Jesus’ warnings about hell were not directed at the heathen, nor primarily the pharisees. It was those who heard him and claimed to be his followers who were in the greatest danger of ending up there. This is a warning that evangelicals of all people very badly need to heed. All the abusers out there badly need to be disabused of the idea that because at some point they exercised faith and attend or even lead a church, there is no chance of them ever being cast out from God’s presence, and of winding up in hell if they deny that faith by their actions.

They said of Jesus ‘behold, he does all things well’. I would argue that after the final judgement of the race, those excluded from God’s presence will still be able to say this. That they have been treated with complete justice by a God who is altogether loving, and that even in this solemn area he still ‘did all things well’.

If you look at it from this point of view, although still a sombre subject, it is no reason to abandon the Christian faith and become a ‘gone’

Hi…have been following TWW for years but have never responded to your articles. I am deeply grateful for you both ((along with many of the regular commenters)). You guys have provided validation for so very many of the heartaches endured growing up in the SBC & IBLP based churches in TN//VA.

I’m 35, a Travel RN and have been *Done* with church for 8-9 years — physically removed from any corporate gathering; emotionally I’ve been done for 15+ years.

Its overwhelming to know where to begin but to keep things as condensed as possible:

1.) Authoritarian Leadership, with governing elders who perpetuated many abuses with willful ignorance of corruption, neglect, and gross forms of “spiritual discipline.”

2.) VERY bad theology: tons of Bill Gothard/IBLP, Quiver Full, odd end-times eschatology ((aka: fear mongering)), contracts, dismissal of science…etc., etc.

3.) COMPLETE mishandling, I still get nauseated thinking about it, of sexual [children & adults] abuse, and spousal abuse.

a.) At the first church 2 “adopted” children (stolen by the pastor) were kept locked inside his home and forced into forms of slavery & sexual abuse for years. I was only 9-10 years old at the time and knew something was very wrong with the treatment of Esther ((her adopted name)) but my family ignored it. My step-father “enjoyed” abusing and took cues from this pastors lead.
We attended church here, with only 4 other families ((very small group of members, all with bigger families)) for 3 years. I can’t emotionally bear under what was done to her, and what my parents ignored. I’ll never understand why.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/combs/

b.) The second (and last church I ever regularly attended) was much more clever in their coverups. But the Authoritarian rulers reigned supreme here.
Child sexual abuse covered. Children ((14-16 year olds)) kicked out of church and homes for personal struggles that didn’t “fit” within church ideals//standards.
Abusers were protected. Victims were told their abuses “weren’t that bad.”
People asked to leave because their daughters didn’t dress up-to-code…could only be counseled by the pastors wife who had ZERO training and who gave horrible counsel…Pedophiles protected…

c.) Myself and two other siblings were physically, emotionally and sexually abused by family members. We were never offered counseling and all of it, to this day has essentially been ignored, and for one of my brothers completely invalidated.
I sought help from the second church we attended who told me I needed to “move on” that I needed to “forgive & forget” and my personal favorite that being sexually assaulted wasn’t “that bad, children in Africa have it worse.”

4.) No room whatsoever for challenging anything the church taught. Questions were sternly discouraged and silenced.

5.) Politics were integral.
a.) We’d picket the local abortion clinics covered in “blood” and carrying “dead babies” in buckets. Chanting, yelling, protesting and scaring the hell out of any passerby. This was a very regular occurrence ((weekly)).

b.) Who to vote for was plastered all over the facility and voter cards were handed out.

c.) Some local politicians attended the church and were allowed to discourse their political perspectives before elections. This sometimes took over a Sunday school lesson so we knew how to “vote right”

d.) American flag was often pledged to as part of the service.

6.) Judging others was normative and encouraged.

7.) To this day I still catch flak (seeing them in a store etc.,) from ‘friends’ I grew up with who are still deeply embedded in these mind sets. They consider us (myself and other adult siblings) regenerate and sinful for “walking away.”

8.) Isolation tactics. My church and family were very skilled at this. You keep your kids in a very controlled environment, you homeschool them, you limit most friendships, you abuse them, and then when they attempt to leave…they have no where to go and no one to help them.
I got out by the skin on my teeth. I had been stashing money for almost 5 years from various babysitting jobs and had just enough to support myself. And there was the mercy of one family who ended up taking me in and allowing me the opportunity to go to college.
My parents rejected me over leaving at the age of 22 (women have no other purpose than to serve the man and procreate). God forbid I wanted to work and go to college.
They didn’t talk to me for around 6 months. I wasn’t allowed to see my 9 younger siblings ((I’m the oldest of 10)) and one of my brothers that snuck over to see me was kicked out and forced to live in the woods, in a ratty tent, in the winter, in Virginia, at 17 years old.
When they did talk to me it was only my mother. My stepfather has never spoken to me again beyond very basic social greetings.
My biological father (residing in Oregon) knew a of the goings on and ignored it all as I would have “inconvenienced” his lifestyle. Saw him for the first time in 16 years in 2014.

——————————

I can’t bring myself to go to church again for so very many reasons. Don’t worry about it anymore either.

I find solace in being a nurse in critical care and serving those in need.
I find joy in traveling and exploring.
I find comfort in websites like TWW who don’t invalidate folks on every turn.
I’m grateful for those who love me and gave me a chance(s).

Casey wrote:

You should really link to some of Steve Taylor’s videos from his Squint album. The CD has a really good an anti marketing of Christianity grit to it.

I key on individual song titles more than I do albums.

What were some of the songs on that album?

Gram3 wrote:

Sallie Borrink wrote:
The problem is that I’m more toward the conservative end of the spectrum in many ways so I wouldn’t fit in most denominations that ordain woman.
Yes, that is a huge issue for me and Gramp3, too. Having a male or female pastor/elder is not the problem. It is the reason why only males can teach. I hope that if I were in a liberal denomination that I would object to female quotas in the pulpit, too.
Being conservative, for me everything that is held firmly needs to be firmly grounded in the Bible texts, and authoritarianism and is subtype, Complementarianism, simply is not. If it were, 9Marks/Acts29/CBMW and Crossway would not need to exist to spill all the ink and kill all the trees and pixels they do to make Complementarianism *seem* like it is somewhere in the Bible.

To both Sallie Borink and Gram 3: The Anglican Church in North America ordains women and is also otherwise doctrinally conservative in all other ways that I am aware of. In our area, I have not heard of inroads by neo-cals, though I have heard of this of one church in another area (grand “growth” plan, “gospel” as adjective, etc.)

Also, Intervarsity Christian Fellowship is alive and thriving on college campuses and they certainly encourage women in leadership/egalitarian understanding of Scripture. I wonder where all those college students go.

Perhaps because the abuses of so many Neo-cal churches draw people to this site, we have a skewed view of the church in America. And perhaps because the “church planting” movement looks to be about getting “the brand” out there, we are more aware of those churches. Just pondering.

@ Abi Miah:
Thank you for that. I am aware of the ACNA, but I am still researching the Anglican Communion thanks to Nancy Okrapod on the ODP. I don’t think I would feel comfortable in the ACNA for several reasons which are personal, both doctrinally and personalities I’ve encountered. Basically, I am a Baptist by conviction, in the old sense of the term. Regrettably, my Baptist church which used to be bound by the authority of the Bible has gone chasing after strange doctrines of men. It makes me very sad because what has been done is so very unBaptist.

I don’t know what Inter-Varsity women are doing, but that is an interesting question. Same for Biola women and Gordon-Conwell women and Regent women. I believe that these educated women will make a difference in the future along with their male classmates who can see the exegetical and logical problems that patriarchy has.

On a somewhat related note, years ago I heard an impressive public Gospel presentation at an occasion that was not a church or church-related occasion. At the time, I held views somewhat similar to Complementarians hold today at least with respect to an all-male pastorate. But here’s the thing that produced such cognitive dissonance for me: the person giving such a pure and public presentation of the Gospel without being paid and in a place where neither fortune nor fame could follow was a woman. An Episcopalian priest woman at that! Those were pieces which did not fit within my paradigm at the time. I wondered how those things could be, and maybe that was one of the things which made me more open to consider that possibly I had gotten some things wrong.

Muff Potter wrote:

PREACH IT SISTER ! ! !

In response to Patrice in older comments on Mon Jun 29, 2015 at 09:54 AM.

Patrice wrote:

Clockwork Angel wrote:
Hence, Justin Martyr’s reasoning on hell in his apologies. The belief that they would, sooner or later, cease to exist led the citizens of the Roman empire to do whatever pleased them. The entire society degraded into seeking one’s own pleasure, often at the expense of the poor.
But even though people in the current US church mouth beliefs of eternal suffering, similar travesties occur at high rates. The amount of child abuse is staggering, and cover-ups follow way too often. Power-hunger is rampant. The politics of “pull-up-by-bootstraps” is de rigueur. We build massive buildings for ourselves and call it for God. We are wrecking the garden God gave us with our greed.
So I don’t see that our beliefs about the after-life is all that much a deterrent/reward. I think Justin Martyr was in a proper rage and wanted a solution and he decided to turn God into the ultimate revenge machine as an answer.
We all want to find ways to stop evil. But history hasn’t proved out that doubling/tripling down on after-life punishment does anything much. And along the way, it turns our God into a horrifying person. It’s not a price I can pay because it is not true.

Ah, but that’s why we’re the “Dones”, now isn’t it? American “Christianity” is nothing like the Christianity practiced in the apostolic church or in the Ante-Nicene era church. Even post-Nicene era, the church was renowned for building hospitals and helping the sick, teaching people to read and write, etc. Even up to the nineteenth century we had heroes like George Muller taking care of orphans.

I posit that America isn’t a Christian nation at all. At least, certainly not today. They don’t really believe the Bible. They misuse it to give them the right to step on others for their own gain. Everything is a false prosperity gospel. Even in churches that supposedly are against this, they introduce it from a different angle, such as courtship theology. (Follow this list of Pharisaical courtship rules and you’ll get a stellar husband, a big house, and a white-picket fence! And if you don’t, you suck and might go to hell forever, you filthy, rebellious dater you.) They don’t love each other. They don’t really believe God will evaluate their deeds and judge them, for reward or for punishment. They think they got a free pass through Jesus, their minister of sin, to do whatever pleases them. No virtue required.

Which is why the rest of us who understand what Jesus actually taught and how Christians are actually supposed to live are “Done” with these people.

Sorry you went through such hell in your life. I and some of my family members can relate. I have an abusive father, and I likewise don’t wish hell for him. But he seems to want to stay the bitter, cruel man that he is, despite supposedly being Christian. Nevertheless, I hope for God’s mercy for him, and that he will see his need for it and receive it, and be changed for the better.

@ Clockwork Angel:

Also, regarding Justin Martyr. He was by no means an angry, vindictive man. His writings are overall cheerful, and excited in a good way about Jesus, to the point that it’s contagious. Many patristic writings are kindly and demonstrate a true care for their audience, even while being firm in their beliefs. Justin, an ex-Platonist philosopher, spent his time in his philosopher robes trying to reach his fellow philosophers, at a time when Christianity was illegal. He really cared for them to risk is life, given that they could easily turn him in to the authorities. Eventually, someone did, and he was beheaded for his faith. You can read his personal testimony of conversion in his “Dialogue with Trypho”. He didn’t convert because he was seeking any angry, vindictive God. He converted because he sought truth, and found it in a merciful God who gave His only Son for us.

Regardless of our differing views, I do respect your opinion, and I understand your worry over people who go to hell. I personally put my faith in God that He is merciful, and that those who go to hell do so because they resisted the Holy Spirit so strongly that there truly is no other choice. “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.” It is their unwillingness to reconcile with God that puts them in hell. Sadly, it seems most people are unwilling. But that’s where I again pray for God to move on people’s hearts, and to show mercy. I believe he will for many, especially for those who had less knowledge or who were stumbled away from the faith. No, it’s the Mark Driscolls of the world that I worry about the most. They know better. They’ve read the Bible, and have ignored it to build their own mini-kingdoms.

@ Muff Potter:
🙂

A friend rolled his eyes at me this morn when I spoke my bit about virtue. “Well, sure that’s what they say,” he snorted.

lol

@ dee:
Dee, I just sent you an email. It’s a forward from an email reply I got from the elder at the Acts 29 church I am leaving, where the TGC blogger (my old roommate) will be leading women. I gave him the reasons why I want to leave, and he came back with typical A29 emotional abuse tactics. “I sense a lot of bitterness. I don’t know yiu very well, but I know her.” Ah, yes, just like everyone else knows her so well. She can do no wrong. I must be mistaken and bitter, and she is obviously in the right.And yes, I would like to get in touch with Karen.

@ Ken:

I don’t see how this issue of ‘love’ can be straightened out because our culture has misunderstood the concept and misused the word and misapplied the idea itself. The idea that ‘love’ as seemingly understood in our culture is no excuse and on the other hand that ‘love’ which is not contrary to holiness itself (that would be the love of God) can be ferocious in appearance-that is nowhere to be found in the paperback section so to speak.

My contributions to this conversation, in no particular order. It’s going to be long, so fasten your seat belts.

I was raised by rather legalistic parents in a non-denom church that might as well have been Southern Baptist. Left as soon as they couldn’t make me go anymore. Had very few glimpses “behind the curtain” at that church but one stands out. As a teenager, I used to draw frogs on the backs of the weekly registration cards we were supposed to fill out (the back of the card was supposed to be for comments and requests). One Sunday the pastor called out his office window to me as I was walking by, to tell me he enjoyed my frog notes. I said, a little incredulously, “You read those?” “Every one,” he assured me. Around the same time, his youngest daughter (whom I considered an insufferable goody-two-shoes) and I were thrown together for an evening, and I remember her marveling about how blessed we were to live in America. I thought, oh my, she’s for real, it’s not a PK front. These incidents served as examples to me that not all church people were like my parents….

That church eventually died because they hired a hip young pastor, only to figure out after a few years that he was “all hat, no cattle,” and all the old mainstays scattered. When the congregation was down to 9 people they voted to join a denomination. That version is still in business, and word on the street is that it’s not a bad place, mostly.

Went to a Calvary Chapel as a young adult; encountered the same top-down leadership issues that many others have discussed. Became a “done” when that pastor more or less ordered me to stay in my abusive marriage, never even asking me for my side of the story. Apparently as a woman I was not entitled to have a side. This piled on top of the damage he did to other families. His ministry imploded when his wife admitted to having several affairs. Schadenfreude, anyone?

Stayed “done” for a couple of decades. Hadn’t lost my belief in God, and the truths I learned as a youngster, just had no desire to participate. I wasn’t done with God, I was done with the people who purported to work for him. But God coaxed me back, and about 7 years ago I decided it was time to get off my sitting place and look for a church. Thanks to Google, the very first non-denom that came up had sermons online. I listened to one, didn’t hear anything hinky, so off I went. I’ve been there ever since.

Several things that stand out, especially in light of the current discussion. The pastor is just about the most humble, self-deprecating guy there is. He comes right out and says, “Don’t follow me, follow Jesus! You follow me, you’ll get into trouble, guaranteed.” Being a pastor wasn’t his first gig; he came out of the business world.

I heard a real eye-opener very early on. Someone mentioned that they wanted to start a food bank, and the pastor said, if you feel that’s what God is leading you to do, do it! You don’t need my permission! Imagine that. Starting a ministry without permission. I had never heard of such a thing before.

More recently (last year) we had a bit of a dust-up in our small group, where someone had to be asked to leave, for reasons that don’t matter here. In the course of the situation, the pastor remarked that it goes against all his human/fleshly instincts to give the small groups as much autonomy as we have; with great fear and trepidation on his part, he has chosen to take the “risk” of “letting” the groups be autonomous, with the great reward that the Holy Spirit is free to move. He said his own instinct would be to put us all in adult Sunday school classes and control us that way, but instead he takes a hands-off approach. There is a weekly discussion guide (based on the week’s sermon) that is offered, but no one is required to use it. Some groups do, some don’t. (My group is one of the rebel bands.)

As for the small groups, everyone is strongly encouraged to join one and get involved, but it’s not required.

Another time I asked the pastor a question. He said he didn’t really know the answer, and I should go look it up, study it, and come back and report. Priesthood of all believers and all that, i.e. not all the teaching has to come from the Sunday pulpit, the pastor is not a know-it-all, and we can teach each other things.

The pastor has mentioned political issues, and only in the most peripheral ways, maybe less than 5 times in 7 years. I don’t expect to hear one word out of him about the recent Supreme Court decision, unless it’s something like another friend of mine expressed, which is to rejoice at the news, because it means the kingdom of God is very near at hand!

The pastor encourages people to find someplace else if they don’t feel this church is the right place for them. That’s the public stance. Privately, I once heard him say he’s tired of losing people to a certain church across town that is big and has lots of programs that we don’t.

Our building is strategically located on the busiest downtown corner, in an ex-bank. About once a month, the evening of the Farmers’ Market, they open all the windows and doors and the band plays. Loudly. People are curious, and they come in. Sunday mornings, one of the associate pastors and a couple of elders hang out on the sidewalk and invite people in. (One advantage of our location is that there isn’t going to be any temptation to expand the building because there simply is no room to expand.)

Incidentally, the associate pastor who invites people in off the sidewalk was divorced long ago. He runs Divorce Care groups from time to time. His current wife is agoraphobic, and in 7 years I’ve seen her once. She came on Christmas Eve a couple of years ago. If anyone dared to suggest that she is somehow a lesser being or not “doing it right” because she doesn’t come on Sundays, I expect they would very quickly be set straight. She too was divorced long ago. When I went to Divorce Care, nobody ever even asked anyone else about the circumstances of their divorce, although the lady who was co-facilitating talked about how years ago, in another she was grilled about her divorce before she was allowed to serve as a youth leader. Couldn’t have some woman with improper grounds for divorce teaching our young-uns, no siree.

We’re not a large congregation, but our members (who are self-selected; nobody signs anything) sponsor hundreds of children through Compassion International, and a group of 38 people just got back from a trip to Bolivia, where they visited families and helped with a building project.

People are encouraged to serve in various ways, but no one is required to, and it is NOT expected that women are only fit for nursery service. I am a divorced childless middle-aged woman, and no one has ever even suggested that to me, which is good, because I just don’t do kids. I do serve on the 9:00 service prayer team, where several months ago I prayed for a woman new to the church who served tirelessly in other churches for decades, but she has some health concerns now so she’s just a spectator. She told me it somehow felt “wrong” to her to be the one asking for prayer, because she has always been on the other end. Hopefully she has stopped feeling that way…. This past Sunday I actually prayed with a woman who was, of all things, worried about the neighbor’s dog. Hey, God made the critters too, and gave us the capacity to love and care for them.

Which brings up another point. If we church folk are only supposed to serve and not be served, who exactly IS being served? If one person inside the church is ever the help-ee, as opposed to the help-er, then everybody should be free to ask for and get help. Are the people we’re supposed to be serving are all outside the church? Not that that’s a bad thing, but what about all the one-anothers we are supposed to be doing?

And that reminds me. The disabled woman who also cares for her elderly mother, who just doesn’t have it in her to walk the 2 miles to go to the “fluffy” Beth Moore study, and people in that church are getting down on her because of this. For crying out loud, has nobody freaking OFFERED HER A RIDE?! If they really, really think she should be there, at least give her some option for getting there! (Which of course, she would be free to turn down, if she didn’t want to go.) For 2 years I picked up a woman and her daughter who didn’t have a car and brought them to church every Sunday. Because they asked, and they wanted to go. Any time they weren’t coming for any reason they would let me know ahead of time. And their reasons were their business. It’s not my job to force people into church or expect them to be there, but it might be my job, if I have the means and I am asked, to help people find a way to get there.

Anybody still with me? Thanks for sticking around. I did warn y’all at the top that this was going to be long. 🙂

One last thing. I sporadically follow a blog written by a guy who totally “gets it.” For what it’s worth, it’s found at brokenbelievers.com, the author is a disabled pastor, and the subtitle (which I love) is “Committed to the Struggler, the Rascal, the Mentally Ill, and All Who Follow Jesus With a Limp.”

We became “dones” about 3 years ago, but were “undone” rather quickly. We were “done” with two churches and two versions of modern day Calvinism-one was small. very non-materialistic and focused toward helping the poor. Along with these good things, it was rigidly anti-female in ANY position of leadership and generally uneasy with women’s participation in theological discussions. Add to this an obsessive belief that with proper systematic theology, every paradox of life could be explained in the language of new Calvinism.

The other church , on the surface, seemed much less legalistic in theology. We soon found out that beneath the veil of blasting rock style church shows and cool hip leaders who admitted to drinking wine, lurked the very same doctrine as the other church. The materialism made this church much harder to attach to. In fact, I have never felt so alone at a church (having never met the main pastor in 18 months), His proclamation that “this (meaning Sunday service)is NOT the church….the SMALL GROUPS are the church. Really? As a fairly social (by introvert standards) introvert, that basically left me out in the cold, and more profoundly, more confused than ever about the question “What is church? And what is worship? And worse, if this is not church, why am I here?”

Since beginning my new life as a Christian (about 25 years ago), I have never felt so isolated from believers. I actually began to empathize with those who throw in the towel on church, though I was determined to continue for two reasons- I believe that it is an important discipline in the life of a Christian, and very important to my children’s lives. But honestly, I did not enjoy going, and this was depressing, confusing, and convicting to me.

But good tidings! About 3 years ago, through a process of seeing what alternatives are out there, we began attending a Lutheran church. It was kind of a “who knew?” moment… It is liturgical. rather ancient in practice, and the service is beautifully repetitive. The music is traditional and sacred. The Sunday School is inclusive of men and women, and discussion is encouraged. We are a conservative Lutheran church, which suits us very well, but aside from theological matters, the pastors do not claim any authority over anyone. The humility is very visible. In fact, the structure of the church UNDERMINES the pastor’s authority in all but a limited sphere…They can be moved at will by the denomination, they are basically told week by week the topic of the sermon, and they cannot make any church decision apart from a board that is often contentious.

How ironic that in looking for more freedom in church, by way of the non denomination/free form type church. that the real freedom for us was found in a steadfast and traditional church that at one time I might have found too encumbered by tradition and practice.

The good news is that NEVER have I understood worship or the sense of being part of the church in a very real sense till now- maybe because no one questions that we are all very different people who are brought together by Christ. NOT because we all conform in lifestyle or small groups or what new whiz-bang Christian book we are following. This has been joyful. And our teenagers? They LOVE the beautiful familiar repetition and they adore the sacred music. I am reminded of the awesome quote by Chesterton that points out that only small children and God love to do the same thing over and over again. I hope that I have become more of a kid again.

I tell this story as an encouragement to the “dones” not to give up. There really are places out there that focus on Christ, that admit that there are unexplainable paradoxes in Christianity that each believer contends with and may not always agree upon, and that “new” is not necessarily “better” in the church. I would suggest that if you are so inclined, explore a church whose service and music doesn’t look a whole lot different today than it did a long time ago. Consider the liturgical church. There is great meaning and peace in this.

Anyway, enough said- but DON’T GIVE UP!!

Patrice wrote:
Actually, I prefer an a** who is honest about it rather than one who lies/pretends, if I had to choose between the two (which I won’t, ever again. w00t)

Haha! That’s totally true! In fact, I’ve been thinking of applying this for whenever I choose my next church. I mean, evangelical pastors claim that Catholic priests are bad, because nobody is a priest between you and Jesus. And yet, they constantly insert themselves between you and Jesus, even to the point of claiming they hear from God when you don’t. I even had a pastor tell me to my face, “Doing X in our church will be your ministry to God.” As if he somehow had heard something I didn’t, or could discern God’s will better than I. Being young and naive, of course, I naturally fell in line.

At least if I go for a more liturgical church (such as Anglican), I’d be getting some honesty. The high-Anglican pastors outright admit they’re your priests.

Anyway, glad we can shake hands, and thank you for your comments. See, even though we disagree on a subject, we can do so politely with the purpose of giving each other food for thought, and walk away as friends without anathematizing each other. That’s what I like about this community. 🙂

I very nearly became a Done recently, as driven to leave the church of my salvation after 15 years there. Part of me wanted to be done, part of me knew it would be very bad for me. Here are some of the key issues for me.

Poor sermons:
* Trying to fill a 45 minute slot with a 20 minute sermon, so putting in lots of talk about the sermon (meta-sermon) and personal fluff instead of the sermon
* Preacher not spending enough time in his study before writing sermons. One example was hanging a main point on a particular translation word choice, without even mentioning that other translations of the same passage didn’t use that word or anything nearly equivalent. Another was “remembering” something as in an OT story that isn’t actually in that text, and using that non-happening to define a term.
* Choosing topics and cherry picking proof texts to fit the topic, instead of preaching through biblical books.

Bad theology/praxis (I can’t separate the two):
* As per Nikilee above (29 JUn 15 at 3:10 PM) declaring particular interpretations authoritative without acknowledging that there are alternatives (may have been related to the preacher not spending enough time in his study)
* Ignoring historical context that matters to the meaning of passages
* Strong anti-intellectualism
* Trying to force the congregation to practice internal segretation (not race based, other categories) instead of trying to be a Fellowship of Differents, as per Scot McKnight’s book of that topic, and Paul’s teachings in two of his epistles that the societal categories are overcome
* Not reading scripture in the worship service (remember that one of the discernible selection criteria for which texts would be in the New Testament was that only those suitable for reading in the service made the cut)
* Not realizing that supporting evangelical missionaries in the field should not be funded from a budget line labelled as helping the poor. (Nothing wrong with supporting evangelical missionaries – but don’t claim that that is aiding the poor.)
* Not having deacons or anyone in church leadership paying attention to the poor of our congregation or the poor of our local community.
* Focusing financial teaching on tithing to the local church.

Music:
* Too much “jesus is my boyfriend” songs
* Not enough theology in the song lyrics
* Soundboard set to have the instruments loud enough to nearly drown the worship band’s mic’ed vocalists, and they are too loud to hear the congregation singing
– On the good side, the worship leaders dropped songs if they ever saw the song as being about them. But the sound board settings made all the worship be the band’s worship.

Authoritarianism:
* Leadership that decides before listening to those who are expected to change because of the decision
* Pastor with complete control of the church. While nominally there are elders, the pastor could appoint and remove elders at will, and mostly didn’t bother having elders at all
* Started with a membership pattern in he bylaws that didn’t allow people to just leave; they could either be kicked out or become a member of another church and thereby leave this one. (This one they did fix after I stated it was one of the reasons I was not becoming a member.)

Community:
* Three of four members of the family had no deep friendships or relationships at the church, despite having been there 15 years (or their whole lives for our youth)

Available Options:
* Most of the local churches could be told just from their website that they would either be a clear non-fit for community (age bracket) reasons or for theological reasons. In a large city, was able to shortlist only four churches that were reasonably nearby and might have fit those two patterns. Very quickly eliminated three of the four. Hoping to avoid becoming a done at the fourth.

@ StillWiggling:

Just want to say thank you for sharing. It is much appreciated. Sounds like you’ve been through a lot and I’m glad you’ve found ‘home’.

Why I am currently a Done – or how about My Journey of Becoming a Done:

My husband and I left the church we raised our children in after 20 years, 10 years ago. We were both on staff – he in the role of prayer pastor the last 8 years we were there and me as the receptionist the last 3 years we were there. I was still considered a pastor’s wife, in fact pastor was in front of my name too so I was expected to walk in the pastor role Sunday through Saturday. My husband worked for a paycheck with insurance benefits. I worked on an hourly basis. I was hired because the lead pastor’s daughter who before me had the position was absent more than she was present and they needed a mature person with a work ethic. Retirement and such must have been reserved for the founding pastor family of whom are all on staff now as pastors (including their spouses). I have no doubt that each one of them have a good retirement plan. When we were on staff the young adult children of the senior pastor couple – now the term is lead pastor – all had authority over the rest of us, (these were OUR children’s friends) much like the royal family of Great Britain are considered above the common folk who are subservient and prone to.worship.them. It took leaving the church for our education to really begin. Reading books and blogs for help and healing, we learned we had observed dysfunction and nepotism at its finest. What has been enlightening is what we thought was only this family’s dysfunction was also systemic in the association of churches they were joined with all the years we attended. (They’ve since cut themselves off from that group – MFI – Ministry Fellowship International – and not sure if they are associated with any other churches other than their relatives’ churches who are in Seattle, Las Vegas and California.) We finally grew up and realized that as these lead pastors age the pattern is to set their children up for life in the family business/ministry and most importantly financially much like CEOs of companies who practice nepotism. Over the 10 years we’ve been gone we are realizing this is a systemic problem in how America seems to do church.

Looking back, I see it was necessary for me to work on staff as receptionist so I could get a closer look at this family-run business/ministry and see what my husband and the others were expected to endure. The system was conducive for subtle spiritual abuse. Our boundaries were being crossed on a regular basis so there was always the resistance-and-submit struggle we were having – the push-pull thing always going on with the lead pastor family. Eventually we came to the end of the struggle – the Lord had mercy – and the light dawned in our spirits – which by the way didn’t come without prayer and seeking God’s will in all of it. We finally saw: 1) The fruit of being part of a church – attending – serving in the ministry of it – should be joy and peace, not angst and frustration. While interacting with the congregation itself was a joy of love and service, the interactions with the lead family was increasingly filled with angst. 2) We live in America for crying out loud, currently land of the free. We don’t HAVE to live life like this. We can choose to walk away from what we can no longer condone. We should have been educated on boundaries and toxic leadership but we were in a world we had submitted ourselves to even though we had red flags from the start. Apparently we had some growing up to do and it took 20 years to find out what others seem to know early on. The book Toxic Churches-Restoration from Spiritual Abuse by Marc Dupont helped us tremendously when we got out – he put a name to all those red flags we’d had over the years but were taught to suppress:

-Authoritarian leadership – too much power corrupts and destroys

-Too much emphasis on political issues (right wing republican stance of the lead pastor)(the pastor flew back to DC almost on a weekly basis – there’s an entire book we could write on this – who knows maybe we who have left will someday)

-Too much emphasis on judging outsiders (even though we were taught we needed to include them – have since learned this is cognitive dissonance)

-Pastor doesn’t know my name after x years (I felt that he only knew me by my function – in meetings he called the families units)

-Church money being spent on buildings, etc: funding exquisite clothing and housing and travel for the entire lead pastor family instead of on paying their bills on time and providing for the poor or how about your staff?? When the youngest daughter gets a paycheck higher than my functioning adult husband, father of 2, something is wrong. If you are set up as a CEO of a business to benefit yourself and your family, then at least provide your staff (who shoulders much of the work you think you are too busy to do) with some sort of retirement plan if you expect them to give up their careers to build your company even if you are calling it building God’s kingdom. Which way do you want it? – business or ministry – if you are a business then why are you enjoying tax exempt status as a 5013c? The question of the decade!

-Too much emphasis on giving – there would often be 2, even 3, offerings lead by the Holy Spirit of course. We also had to parade up front and put the offering in the baskets at the altar while singing praise songs to show we were joyful and faithful givers. eyeroll.

-Music – so much to say here but lets sum it up with: whipping the congregation into a feverous frenzy to get higher and higher is exhausting. It’s like the tower of Babel in man’s effort to reach God which He did not condone then, so I assume He does not now.

-Judgmental members – a good friend often quotes “We Are the Borg. You Will be Assimilated. Resistance is Futile.”

-No one called or helped me when ____________ (We were the ones who were calling and going so this wouldn’t apply to us; however, many people suffered because they weren’t on the radar. Also after my husband left staff, his boss, the senior lead pastor never called to check in. Another sweet pastor from a humble church in the area had heard and called to see if we were doing alright. My husband cried over that one. When it finally sinks in that all your years of sacrifice and service were tossed aside because you dared to leave, it hurts. But it was part of coming to the reality of who we had been serving.)

-Bad theology – now we know this is what it was.

-Church discipline/Church abuse – this was always an undercurrent – threatening to happen, but our lead pastors didn’t care enough to actually go through the process.

-I feel like my talents are ignored – or you were pigeon-holed into an area that wasn’t your gifting. The pain of ignoring a person’s talents was classified as the dealings of God.

-Science was denigrated – until the lead pastor children were of college age, we got the feeling that education wasn’t important. Thus the expensive intern program which was lead and taught by the lead pastor adult children.

————————
The above is an overview of Part 1 why we are Dones.
————————

Part 2 for another time.