SNAP Press Release: Written by Amy Smith

Dallas church apologizes to wife of sex offender; SNAP responds

For immediate release: Friday, May 29

Statement by Amy Smith, Dallas co-leader of SNAP (281-748-4050, watchkeepamy@gmail.com)

An officials at a large Dallas church says he’ll apologize on Sunday to a woman whose mistreatment by church officials has generated a firestorm of protest. We’re not impressed by the pastor’s promises.

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/the.village.church.on.karen.hinkley.we.believe.we.owe.her.an.apology/54932.htm

If an apology happens, it will likely be a belated, grudging and vague one from Matt Chandler of The Village Church to Karen Hinkley. Still, we hope it brings some comfort to Karen who has suffered so much and so needlessly because TVC officials have acted so selfishly, secretively recklessly and hurtfully.

(Hinkley’s husband, Jordan Root, admitted viewing images of child abuse. TVC officials disciplined her when she sought to annul their marriage.)

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/the.village.church.why.we.put.wife.of.man.with.paedophile.leanings.under.church.discipline/54687.htm

We suspect Chandler is doing this only because he and his colleagues have been severely and widely criticized for their cruelty to this brave, wounded woman.

But an apology does nothing to protect the vulnerable or heal those already hurt because of the crimes of Jordan Root and the actions of TVC staff.

We firmly believe that kids are at risk now because Root walks free, living and working among unsuspecting families. And we firmly believe there are kids he has hurt who are suffering in silence, shame and self-blame.

TVC staff should use their vast resources to alert parents, police, prosecutors and the public about Root’s crimes and to aggressively seek out youngsters he has assaulted. The church has a moral and civic duty to help law enforcement investigation and prosecute Root, so that other kids may be spared devastating harm.

Adults can heal themselves, with or without apologies from complicit church officials. Kids, however, cannot protect themselves from clergy sex offenders without help from church officials. So TVC staff must change their priorities. Their first duty now is to warn the public about Root so that parents can safeguard their children from him.

Everything else can come later.

Words are easy. Reform is hard. Progress will happen if TVC staff take tangible steps to safeguard those at risk, help those in pain and prosecute those who have committed or concealed child sex crimes.

Finally, in a letter to church members, Chandler writes of “failures” by TVC staff.

http://matthewpaulturner.com/2015/05/28/matt-chandler-the-village-church-offer-apology-to-karen-hinkley/

That’s disingenuous. “Failure” is when a good faith effort somehow inadvertently goes awry. There was no “failure” here. Chandler and his colleagues acted with deliberation, thought and planning. They knew exactly what they were doing with Root’s crimes and Hinkley’s feelings. It’s a cop-out for them to talk of “failure.”

We urge anyone who may have seen, suspected or suffered crimes by Root or cover ups at TVC to speak up, get help, call police, protect kids, and expose and deter future wrongdoing. Breaking your silence is the first step toward healing, justice and prevention.

(SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, is the world’s oldest and largest support group for clergy abuse victims. SNAP was founded in 1988 and has more than 20,000 members. Despite the word “priest” in our title, we have members who were molested by religious figures of all denominations, including nuns, rabbis, bishops, and Protestant ministers. Our website is SNAPnetwork.org)

Contact – David Clohessy (314-566-9790 cell, SNAPclohessy@aol.com), Barbara Dorris (314-503-0003 cell, SNAPdorris@gmail.com), Barbara Blaine (312-399-4747, bblaine@snapnetwork.org)


–David G. Clohessy
Director, SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests)
314-566-9790 (cell)
davidgclohessy@gmail.com
Please consider donating to SNAP, one time or on a monthly basis. Even as little as $5 can help.
https://snap.nationbuilder.com/donate

Comments

SNAP Press Release: Written by Amy Smith — 82 Comments

  1. Warren Throckmorton has also addressed this issue. In his response, he urges caution on “agressively seek[ing] out youngsters he has [allegedly] assaulted” (see from above). As a reminder, JR has admitted to viewing child pornography, not to assaulting children himself.

    Throckmorton said:
    “I read on one of the blogs that the church had been criticized for not contacting former employers or families where Mr. Root had worked with children. In this case, I think caution is in order. The research of psychologist Elizabeth Loftus provides ample evidence that communications with young children can trigger recollections of events which did not happen. The “lost in a shopping mall” paradigm indicates that such contamination can occur in older people too. People can be induced to believe misinformation depending on how questions are asked. Experts in memory and working with children should be consulted on this point.”

    This is a horrendous situation. TVC is likely trying to control the damage they created, but regardless, I hope this will allow Karen to begin the long and arduous healing process.

  2. Amen… Kids should come first, not TVC “covenant with its members”…. Classic example of man made structure over protection/concern for the “littlest of them”

  3. Burwell Stark wrote:

    “agressively seek[ing] out youngsters he has [allegedly] assaulted”

    Read that post and I agree with the word”aggressively.” That is not the intent of Karen, Amy or me. We merely want the message to get out that Jordan Root has some issues. There may be parents whose kids told them something and they blew it off. It would make sense now.

    That is far cry from the McMartin case in which social workers were feeding the kids.

  4. @ dee:

    I agree in the sense that viewing, and this propagating and encouraging, child pornography is a form of child abuse/assault. However, I still think SNAP should be careful to differentiate the two.

  5. It is an almost impossible situation now, and Throckmorton is correct. As heinous as Root’s known actions are, no evidence of actual molestation is known at this point. If it does exist, let us pray it is revealed, but we just can’t assume it’s there
    @ Burwell Stark:

  6. Jeff P wrote:

    It is an almost impossible situation now, and Throckmorton is correct. As heinous as Root’s known actions are, no evidence of actual molestation is known at this point. If it does exist, let us pray it is revealed, but we just can’t assume it’s there
    @ Burwell Stark:

    Be confessed to Karen that he did molest two younger children when he was a child himself.

  7. Jeff P wrote:

    It is an almost impossible situation now, and Throckmorton is correct. As heinous as Root’s known actions are, no evidence of actual molestation is known at this point. If it does exist, let us pray it is revealed, but we just can’t assume it’s there
    @ Burwell Stark:

    Didn’t Jordan Root confess to Karen that besides viewing illegal child abuse acts that he had also molested at least two children?

  8. @ Bridget:
    I’d be interested to know if he confessed that to TVC. Right now it would be his word against hers, and while she’s the one with credibility, I’m not sure that would constitute solid evidence. Knowing the pattern with pedophilia actual abuse is probable. If it is there, let us truly pray it is revealed. Diligent caution is appropriate

  9. Michaela wrote:

    Jeff P wrote:

    It is an almost impossible situation now, and Throckmorton is correct. As heinous as Root’s known actions are, no evidence of actual molestation is known at this point. If it does exist, let us pray it is revealed, but we just can’t assume it’s there
    @ Burwell Stark:

    Didn’t Jordan Root confess to Karen that besides viewing illegal child abuse acts that he had also molested at least two children?

    I was correct. This was from Part 1 of Karen’s article posted on The Wartburg Watch:

    “He [Jordan Root] then went into graphic detail of the sort of dark and gruesome stuff he remembered watching. Karen says it is hard for her to even describe what he told her. This is when he also admitted to molesting two younger children when he was between the ages of 6 and 10.”

    I think there are probably more.

  10. Jeff P wrote:

    It is an almost impossible situation now, and Throckmorton is correct. As heinous as Root’s known actions are, no evidence of actual molestation is known at this point. If it does exist, let us pray it is revealed, but we just can’t assume it’s there
    @ Burwell Stark:

    And you can’t assume it’s not there.

  11. @ Jeff P:
    What was happening to the children Root took pleasure in watching WAS actual molestation. Root needs to come clean with legal authorities re: which sites he visited and cooperate fully in any investigation of those sites, as well as facing the full extent of the law for his participation in such activity.

  12. Burwell Stark wrote:

    Warren Throckmorton has also addressed this issue. In his response, he urges caution on “agressively seek[ing] out youngsters he has [allegedly] assaulted” (see from above). As a reminder, JR has admitted to viewing child pornography, not to assaulting children himself.

    Throckmorton said:
    “I read on one of the blogs that the church had been criticized for not contacting former employers or families where Mr. Root had worked with children. In this case, I think caution is in order. The research of psychologist Elizabeth Loftus provides ample evidence that communications with young children can trigger recollections of events which did not happen. The “lost in a shopping mall” paradigm indicates that such contamination can occur in older people too. People can be induced to believe misinformation depending on how questions are asked. Experts in memory and working with children should be consulted on this point.”.

    That’s ridiculous. There’s plenty of research that shows that when one victim comes forward that there are other victims who also come forward. In fact courts are even permitting the *me too* testimonies of other victims. When Jerry Sandusky’s victims started coming forward so did other victims, with similar stories about how they were preyed upon by him.

  13. I still think the computers, smartphones, etc. are a key here. I’m an awful person for thinking this, but a USB or flash drive is small and easily concealed. I just looked at dozens which were covered with bling, but mixed among them were ones you could put a logo on and they look just like a fob on a keyring. Or even a key itself. Yeah, I’m awful.

  14. @ mirele:
    Has anyone questioned Root and made sure he’s passed along his logins, websites, VPN’s, contacts, etc… Do the “wise, Gospel-led” counselors of TVC even know what to look for or what they’re dealing with?

  15. I see Dr. Throckmorton’s point, actually. If Root has molested other children, the last thing anyone needs is a badly handled “investigation” by amateurs that gives a wily defense attorney ammo for getting a criminal case dismissed.

    What concerns me, however, is that Root has a long history of working with children in a variety of settings. It seems to me that this MUST be addressed by law enforcement and child protective services and that it is likely going to be a very long process.

  16. Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    Has anyone questioned Root and made sure he’s passed along his logins, websites, VPN’s, contacts, etc… Do the “wise, Gospel-led” counselors of TVC even know what to look for or what they’re dealing with?

    No idea. I wonder if they’ve ever heard of Tor?

  17. Even *if* there were no victims at The Village, the SNAP protest is warranted, IMO, because The Village ELDERS failed to adequately guard the children and notify the parents who are ultimately responsible for the children. The Village actively interfered with the parents’ ability to do that for their children, in my estimation. That “failure” of the ELDERS needs to be highlighted because they may have put children at risk just to save their own reputation.

  18. @ Michaela:

    Children had to be molested and abused for child porn to exist. I am not sure why folks don’t get this, do you understand it? Is viewing child porn a felony?

  19. @Albuquerque and mirele:

    The “normal” method for distributing illicit content (not at all limited to child pornography; mostly involving pirated intellectual material, and the occasional Snowden leak) is as follows:
    1. Virtual Private Network
    2. Proxy server(s)
    3. ISP mask
    4. Encoded virtual network with 256 bit PKE

    It is most likely that the images were streamed in self-destructive format, as well there are many software programs out there to defrag and then overwrite the empty space with random binary. I would not expect any forensic evidence from a user (as opposed to a producer) that had more than a passing intelligence and access to Google…

  20. Burwell Stark wrote:

    Warren Throckmorton has also addressed this issue. In his response, he urges caution on “agressively seek[ing] out youngsters he has [allegedly] assaulted” (see from above). As a reminder, JR has admitted to viewing child pornography, not to assaulting children himself.

    Throckmorton said:
    “I read on one of the blogs that the church had been criticized for not contacting former employers or families where Mr. Root had worked with children. In this case, I think caution is in order. The research of psychologist Elizabeth Loftus…

    i read that also, i think people are confusing alerting parents, which is what SIM and Karen have said, not going around asking little kids! In the release that Karen provided that was from SIM it has careful steps on how to address this and suggests the families seek prof help in this area. My point is that if TVC hadnt tried to shut this down and silence SIM and Karen on this then the possible victims families would already know this and for people to now start saying, well you cant talk to the families cause it would cause false memory syndrom is an insult to the proffessional way that Karen and SIM have already tried to do this disclosure

  21. @ Gram3:

    Yes, this went on for 3 months before Karen went public. Again, Karen had to make this public. Village was making it about some moral failure but never once warned parents in those 3 months before Karen went public.

  22. i got in the box again on that last one, this is me:

    i read that also, i think people are confusing alerting parents, which is what SIM and Karen have said, not going around asking little kids! In the release that Karen provided that was from SIM it has careful steps on how to address this and suggests the families seek prof help in this area. My point is that if TVC hadnt tried to shut this down and silence SIM and Karen on this then the possible victims families would already know this and for people to now start saying, well you cant talk to the families cause it would cause false memory syndrom is an insult to the proffessional way that Karen and SIM have already tried to do this disclosure

  23. sam wrote:

    i read that also, i think people are confusing alerting parents, which is what SIM and Karen have said, not going around asking little kids! In the release that Karen provided that was from SIM it has careful steps on how to address this and suggests the families seek prof help in this area. My point is that if TVC hadnt tried to shut this down and silence SIM and Karen on this then the possible victims families would already know this and for people to now start saying, well you cant talk to the families cause it would cause false memory syndrom is an insult to the proffessional way that Karen and SIM have already tried to do this disclosure

    I agree, Sam. Great points.

  24. If Jordan Root was really repentant at the Acts 29 Village Church, he would be helping Law Enforcement right now to break up the pedo rings that produced the kid porn he was viewing, he would be working with the FBI to help them trace the location pics were taken at and remove some kids from abusive homes. He knows that because he followed and supported groups that are called things like ‘stop child sex traficking. Instead he is staying sheltered in the mega church, staying with a lawyer and prob having a few beers with the other good ole boys on staff there.

  25. Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
    Yeah I wouldn’t expect him to have any evidence left on his devices. But if he’s really “repentant” I’m sure he’s made sure to pass along all that info to the police and FBI, right?

    Exactly

  26. Even people who go to The Village but are not covenant members now know what happened. I know this because I have a friend who goes to The Village but is not a covenant member. I also think that as far as the apology to Karen Hinkley, releasing her from membership (which, although she had already left, is important, for now she didn’t leave “under disciple) and sending the e-mail to the covenant members saying they were wrong; the elders did right here. It is hard to admit you were wrong and the elders did that.
    That being said, the protest might be additional thing that’s needed for anyone who was victimized by Jordan Root, whether at The Village or elsewhere in Dallas (or anywhere else that might see it on TV or on the net) to come forward.

  27. Lydia wrote:

    Village was making it about some moral failure but never once warned parents in those 3 months before Karen went public.

    That sounds like the George Carlin “Class Clown” bit about how he could go to Confession as a kid in Catholic school and not admit to anything by using very generic wording.

  28. Why is everything a communication error with these people (reformed leaders)? SGM played the poor communication card, too. Not sorry for our policy, sorry we didn’t communicate better. In other words, we were not effective enough in our groupthink indoctrination.

  29. Dear Jenn,

    Why must you use every tragedy to beat your favorite whipping boy, reformed theology. It is distressing. It is not reformed theology, but much more likely their charismatic belief that causes their sinful reaction. C.J. Mahany, Matt Chandler, Mark Discoll, The Shepherding Movement, ,SGM, Mars Hill, The Village Church, Swaggert, Jim Bakker, etc. all believe God is speaking directly to them, thus they cannot believe they can make a mistake. If they didn’t make a mistake then it was “a failure to communicate.” Sadly this behavior can and has spanned all denominations, theologies, religions and secular institutions.

  30. Lydia wrote:

    @ Michaela:

    Children had to be molested and abused for child porn to exist. I am not sure why folks don’t get this, do you understand it? Is viewing child porn a felony?

    ?

    Perhaps you’ve missed all of my posts. I work in law. I quote the law. Child porn is a serious felony crime that violates federal and state laws.

    Why would you think I wouldn’t understand it? I understand it so much I was excommunicated/shunned from my former church when the pastors/elders defended their friend a Megan’s List child pornographer and put him in to positions of leadership and trust without telling all church members and parents.

    From: The U.S. Immigration & Customs Enforcement (I.C.E.), a division of Homeland Security
    http://www.ice.gov/predator

    Predators Face Severe Penalties

    Several laws increase the probability that sexual predators who harm children will suffer severe consequences, including the Mann Act, the 1994 Child Sexual Abuse Prevention Act, the 2003 Protect Act and the 2006 Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act. Federal law bars U.S. residents from engaging in sexual or pornographic activities anywhere in the world with a child under 18. ICE works with law enforcement agencies and advocacy groups around the globe to investigate crimes of this nature. Those convicted in the United States face significant penalties:
    •Up to 30 years in prison for possession, manufacture, distribution of child pornography
    •Up to 30 years in prison for traveling child sex offender, facilitator of sex with children, or a participant in these crimes
    •Up to a life sentence for sex trafficking children for prostitution

  31. I’m sure everyone has seen this already, but just wanted to make note of something.

    Matt Chandler tells Christianity Today:

    “We have sinned against some people—and we are owning that before God and specifically before the people we have hurt,” he told CT in a phone interview.

    “Our desire is always to be loving and caring. It is clear that we have not communicated—in multiple cases now—the gentleness, compassion, and patience that our elders are called to walk in.”

    (Source: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2015/may-web-only/matt-chandler-apologizes-for-village-churchs-decision-to-di.html)

    Same old Driscoll/Mars Hill Church/Acts 29 code language! I heard this multiple times at my old Acts 29 church, and I think anyone who has followed Driscoll/MHC/A29 for any significant length of time will have heard this stuff.

    If anyone doubted that Chandler was going to take Acts 29 in a different direction than Driscoll, let those doubts be put to rest. Thank you to Ms. Hinkley and everyone helping her to get her story out.

    I pray that God puts to rest the dangerous and dysfunctional culture of Acts 29, and that any godly pastors/churches will find another denomination/network to join.

  32. @ Bridget:
    Dear Bridget,

    No I don’t “follow her around”. Sadly, both Jenn and I have been hurt by SGM churches and she is a frequent commentor on SGMSurvivor website. We probably agree on 90% of things.

    However, we differ in that I believe the harm done is by people, who should be held responsible, not by a theology. Jenn has in the past used insulting terms to disparge people who do not believe in her brand of theology. I do not believe the issue is theology as much as the people involved. I would prefer she not turn these personal tragedies into a soapbox to put down those who do not believe what she believes. I believe that risks losing sight of the real issues.

  33. Jordan Root went to extraordinary lengths to be around children and to be alone with them when he knew he was sexually attracted to them. If he was avoiding acting on those desires, he would not have sought out temptation at every opportunity. While we cannot assume he molested children as an adult, I think the chances are extremely slim that he didn’t.

    Warren Throckmorton is right about not aggressively questioning children which could cause them to ‘remember’ something that never happened. Dee is right as well that learning about Root’s pedophilia might cause parents to rethink events which occurred when their children were in contact with Root such as a change in their child’s behavior at the time, a reluctance in their child to be around Root, or something they saw themselves that seemed off.

  34. Michaela wrote:

    Perhaps you’ve missed all of my posts. I work in law. I quote the law. Child porn is a serious felony crime that violates federal and state laws.
    Why would you think I wouldn’t understand it?

    Oh no! I was not clear. I was looking for answers. I was not sure if it was always a felony or not or how it was classified. If someone views child porn they are considered a child predator or what? I am looking for the right language not being a law person.

  35. Nemo wrote:

    Dear Jenn,

    Why must you use every tragedy to beat your favorite whipping boy, reformed theology. It is distressing. It is not reformed theology, but much more likely their charismatic belief that causes their sinful reaction. C.J. Mahany, Matt Chandler, Mark Discoll, The Shepherding Movement, ,SGM, Mars Hill, The Village Church, Swaggert, Jim Bakker, etc. all believe God is speaking directly to them, thus they cannot believe they can make a mistake. If they didn’t make a mistake then it was “a failure to communicate.” Sadly this behavior can and has spanned all denominations, theologies, religions and secular institutions.

    Yeah, that is a complete mischaracterization of Mahaney and the reformed. They use reformed theology to vouch for their “otherness” as leaders, not God speaking to them. I am not anti-reformed theology, I am against a reformed theology that diminishes the value of the priesthood of all believers and dons in its place a cloak of an ecclesiology that sets itself above the sheep. You should be, as well.

  36. Jeff P wrote:

    It is an almost impossible situation now, and Throckmorton is correct. As heinous as Root’s known actions are, no evidence of actual molestation is known at this point. If it does exist, let us pray it is revealed, but we just can’t assume it’s there
    @ Burwell Stark:

    Well, Jordan says he repented, & that’s enough for TVC–he also said he molested 2 kids, so why isn’t that enough? 😛

  37. Skilled investigators handle suspected child sexual abuse cases. The Dallas Children’s Advocacy Center (http://www.dcac.org/) investigates suspected child abuse in Dallas, Texas by asking non-leading questions.

    Dianna Smoot of the Dallas Children’s Advocacy Center wrote “How to Respond to Suspected Child Abuse” to explain how to recognize and report possible child abuse (http://www.campussafetymagazine.com/article/how_to_respond_to_suspected_child_abuse). The article’s second page has a useful section, “How to Talk to Children About Suspected Maltreatment.” The article includes reporting phone numbers for each state. Dianna Smoot will present “Best Practices for Campus Professionals in Responding to Reports of Child Abuse” at the Campus Safety National Forum on June 26, 2015.

    The Dallas Children’s Advocacy Center website explains, “Every adult in the state of Texas is required to make a report when child abuse is suspected. You do not have to investigate or be certain that abuse has occurred – you only have to suspect. Call 911 if you believe a child is in immediate danger, or if you do not get an appropriate response to other requests. Contact Child Protective Services at 1-800-252-5400 to speak to a statewide intake coordinator and express your concerns. You may also make a report online at http://www.txabusehotline.org. Children in abusive situations cannot speak on their own behalf; you must act for them if you think abuse is occurring.”

    The book, Betrayal trauma: The logic of forgetting childhood abuse, presented pioneering research on betrayal trauma theory (http://dynamic.uoregon.edu/jjf/) by University of Oregon Professor Jennifer Freyd (http://psychology.uoregon.edu/profile/jjf/ and shortened vita http://dynamic.uoregon.edu/jjf/vita.html). Professor Freyd explains the typical DARVO reaction by sex offenders when held accountable (http://dynamic.uoregon.edu/jjf/defineDARVO.html). “The Impact of Skills Training on Responses to the Disclosure of Mistreatment” by Foynes and Freyd suggests people can learn to respond more helpfully when victims of mistreatment reveal what happened to them (http://dynamic.uoregon.edu/jjf/disclosure/index.html). In her book, Blind to Betrayal, Professor Freyd explores “betrayal blindness” in a world often filled with betrayal and why trusting and disclosing facilitate healing (https://sites.google.com/site/betrayalbook/home). On her webpage about recovered memories Professor Freyd makes the concept accessible to non-experts (see the section “Two Common conceptual tangles about recovered memories” http://dynamic.uoregon.edu/jjf/whatabout.html).

    New England Law School’s Professor Wendy Murphy and two 2013 law school graduates critiqued “The formation of false memories” by Loftus and Pickrell (http://www.wendymurphylaw.com/jdphd-project/). The study “The suggestibility of children’s memory for being touched: Planting, erasing, and changing memories” by Pezdek and Roe reveals salient differences between memories similar to sexual abuse memories and memories similar to lost-in-the-mall memories.

    Brown University’s Professor Ross Cheit has two blogs, “Recovered Memory Project: Case Archive, Commentary, and Scholarly Resources” and “The Witch-Hunt Narrative.” Professor Cheit explains there is no “false memory syndrome” (http://blogs.brown.edu/recoveredmemory/about/faq/). Professor Cheit also provides archives of his posts about Elizabeth Loftus (http://blogs.brown.edu/recoveredmemory/tag/elizabeth-loftus/) and the False Memory Syndrome Foundation (http://blogs.brown.edu/recoveredmemory/tag/fmsf-watch/ and http://blogs.brown.edu/recoveredmemory/tag/pamela-freyd/). Interesting events surround the FMSF from its founding to the present day. According to Professor Cheit the McMartin Preschool case is too complex to be labeled in “black-and-white” (https://blogs.brown.edu/rcheit/2014/03/31/unlearned-lessons-of-the-mcmartin-preschool-case/ and https://blogs.brown.edu/rcheit/2014/03/27/retro-report-repeats-media-myth-on-the-mcmartin-preschool-case/). Clearly, accused persons and victims both deserve justice.

  38. Chandler’s apology as reported in the CT article refers to “When she [Karen] tried to withdraw her membership.” He then says, “we have also made the decision to move forward in releasing her from membership.” This is vile. They are still playing power games, claiming to have authority over Karen. The reality is that Karen had both the power and the right to resign her membership, without approval.

    My guess is that they are hoping to extract something, like maybe Karen’s silence, in exchange for granting a “release” from membership.

  39. Dear Jenn,

    Thank you for your response. It shows that we agree far more than we disagree.

    However you have made a mistake. Five fold ministry comes from the charismatic belief set not from the reformed belief set. Reformed theology believes in the priesthood of all believers, perhaps more than any other theology. (E.G. They do not have bishops, they are ruled by synods that are equal part layman and pastors, congregations call new pastors, they are not assigned, etc.) C.J. justified calling himself an apostle and putting himself above everyone else not because of reformed theology but because of his charismatic beliefs.

  40. mirele wrote:

    I still think the computers, smartphones, etc. are a key here. I’m an awful person for thinking this, but a USB or flash drive is small and easily concealed.

    Some flash drives are super small now, only like about half an inch long. They are tiny.

  41. Lydia wrote:

    Yes, this went on for 3 months before Karen went public. Again, Karen had to make this public.

    The Texas TruthSayerTeller guy (fan of TVC) who stopped by on another thread the other day said a few times, “But TVC had safe guards in place.”

    I don’t think TVC does have safeguards, or by the time they did something (ie, having an escort follow Jordan around the church), it was months after the fact.

    I would not want to be the person who is a pedophile’s escort around a church. What an assignment, to babysit a pedophile to make sure he doesn’t harm children.

  42. Nemo wrote:

    Why must you use every tragedy to beat your favorite whipping boy, reformed theology. It is distressing.

    This works in the reverse and can be just as tiresome.

    I don’t feel I should have to specify “Evangelical” or “Baptist” any and every time I reference the word “Christian” when criticizing some church or Christian belief, but in times past when I have not specified that, you have jumped on me for that.

  43. Nemo wrote:

    Reformed theology believes in the priesthood of all believers, perhaps more than any other theology

    Oh my. Must be another case of redefining scriptural concepts.

  44. Daisy wrote:

    Nemo wrote:
    Why must you use every tragedy to beat your favorite whipping boy, reformed theology. It is distressing.

    This works in the reverse and can be just as tiresome.

    I don’t feel I should have to specify “Evangelical” or “Baptist” any and every time I reference the word “Christian” when criticizing some church or Christian belief, but in times past when I have not specified that, you have jumped on me for that.

    You are correct, Daisy. Nemo has done the same to me. Nemo, please stop.

  45. Daisy wrote:

    I don’t think TVC does have safeguards, or by the time they did something (ie, having an escort follow Jordan around the church), it was months after the fact.

    See, I thought they were talking about the typical safeguards that insurers demand. I read enough pastor blogs to get an idea of their verbiage and what they are referring to. As in Jordon cannot work in children’s ministries and the childrens wing leaders would be told, etc.

    But in the end, no matter what churches say they cannot protect children from being groomed by predators at church simply because a predator can become a familiar face at church and seen as accepted and trustworthy by children. Then what happens when they see him at the park? They either don’t understand grooming and the long con of a predator or they are willfully ignorant.

    So, if the churcn has a known predator there and they think they are safegarding children, I think they are fooling themselves. It always seems to come down to being more focused on their liability than actually taking the protection of the most vulnerable, trusting and innocent of our society.

  46. @ Lydia:

    If a solution is to keep the pedophile off church grounds, can’t these churches just have the pedophile watch church services on a computer, in his own house?

    I’ve read that a lot of families do that.

    There are people who watch church services on their TV sets or computers so that they don’t have to drive 40 miles every week to their church of choice.

    Why does the pedo have to be at the church in person?

    If that church feels that the pedo absolutely needs “face to face” time with other Christians, can’t some of the adult male church members meet with the pedo at pedo’s apartment once a week to do a Bible study?

    Does anyone have any historical examples of how churches hundreds of years ago dealt with known pedophiles? Did they allow the pedo to attend the church?

  47. @ Daisy:

    P.S. about that.

    Given that this guy views child abuse images online, on a computer, maybe he should not be allowed access to computers (or not un-supervised).

    So maybe someone from the church could burn copies of the church service on a C.D. every week, and the guy could watch it on his DVD player in his own apartment?

    I am not seeing why it is a necessity for this pedophile, or anyone else for that matter, to show up in person to a church building once a week.

  48. Lydia wrote:

    Michaela wrote:
    Perhaps you’ve missed all of my posts. I work in law. I quote the law. Child porn is a serious felony crime that violates federal and state laws.
    Why would you think I wouldn’t understand it?

    Oh no! I was not clear. I was looking for answers. I was not sure if it was always a felony or not or how it was classified. If someone views child porn they are considered a child predator or what? I am looking for the right language not being a law person.

    Hi Lydia,

    Here is information from the U.S. Immigration & Customs Enforcement (I.C.E.)
    website on child exploitation by US citizens and its criminal penalties.
    I.C.E. is a division of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. U.S. citizens can be prosecuted for crimes they commit overseas.

    Those convicted of child porn will have to register as sex offenders in their state’s Megan’s List, if and when they are released from prison.

    http://www.ice.gov/predator

    Predators Face Severe Penalties

    Several laws increase the probability that sexual predators who harm children will suffer severe consequences, including the Mann Act, the 1994 Child Sexual Abuse Prevention Act, the 2003 Protect Act and the 2006 Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act.

    Federal law bars U.S. residents from engaging in sexual or pornographic activities anywhere in the world with a child under 18. ICE works with law enforcement agencies and advocacy groups around the globe to investigate crimes of this nature.

    Those convicted in the United States face significant penalties:
    •Up to 30 years in prison for possession, manufacture, distribution of child pornography
    •Up to 30 years in prison for traveling child sex offender, facilitator of sex with children, or a participant in these crimes
    •Up to a life sentence for sex trafficking children for prostitution

    Here’s from the U.S. Department of Justice U.S. Citizen’s Guide to U.S. Federal Law on Child Pornography: http://www.justice.gov/criminal/ceos/citizensguide/citizensguide_porn.html

    People can be prosecuted under their state laws for child pornography:

    From the National District Attorneys Association, a compilation of state criminal statutes (child pornography): http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/Child%20Pornography%20Statutory%20Compilation%206-2010.pdf

    Their website with other laws too: http://www.ndaa.org/ncpca_state_statutes.html

  49. Dear Daisy and Michaela,

    I do not remember ever responding to you. Ever. Perhaps you are mistaking for me for someone else. I rarely comment.

  50. Daisy wrote:

    If a solution is to keep the pedophile off church grounds, can’t these churches just have the pedophile watch church services on a computer, in his own house?

    That defeats the purpose of cheap grace and control. There is this theme running through evangelicalism about embracing the wicked sinner who utters I repent. It like a notch on the belt of look at the wicked sinner we brought in redeemed! And while that sounds nice and sorta kinda like Jesus, it really isn’t like Jesus at all. Jesus did not require the sacrifice of the innocent. He was the sacrifice if we dare choose Him.

    Not to get preachy but there is a big theme in the NT ignored by most about metanoia and what it means in practical kingdom life. There is also a total misunderstanding with all this plablum about the importance of the local church which plays into all this.

    We see it played out in court when the Christians show up to give character witness to criminals of heinous crimes because—well— he repented. The victim sits alone and ignored. There is something wrong with this picture.

    There is a time and place to deal with the predator and criminals that say they repent. It needs to be handled with discretion and common sense. Fine, go mentor them at home or in jail. Present the victims with peace and safety, please.

  51. Nemo wrote:

    Dear Daisy and Michaela,

    I do not remember ever responding to you. Ever. Perhaps you are mistaking for me for someone else. I rarely comment.

    Hi Nemo,

    Thanks. I remember. Take care.

  52. Hi Lydia,

    Here is another link to Tim Fall’s blog about some of the victims in
    unlawful pornography: rape-drugs-roadside-stands-and-human-trafficking-there-are-no-innocent-bystanders-see-more-at-httpwww-jennyraearmstrong-com20120612rape-drugs-roadside-stands-and-human-trafficking

  53. Nemo wrote:

    Dear Daisy and Michaela,

    I do not remember ever responding to you. Ever. Perhaps you are mistaking for me for someone else. I rarely comment.

    Do we have a “Nemo” and a “Numo” here that comment? Perhaps that’s the confusion.

  54. Dear Lydia,

    You wrote: Oh my. Must be another case of redefining scriptural concepts.

    No. Please do not confuse what SGM, Mars Hill and TVC teach with reformed theology. All three are a Frankenstein mix of charasmatic and calvinist teaching.

    All three seem to have been started by young (at the time) men without seasoning. They thought they could “do church” better than others. They eshrewed established organization and oversight that is biblical and necessary. God was speaking directly through them so they did not need to listen to criticism.

  55. Nemo wrote:

    Dear Daisy and Michaela,
    I do not remember ever responding to you. Ever. Perhaps you are mistaking for me for someone else. I rarely comment.

    Oh. Maybe I am getting you mixed up with “Numo.” Is that her name, Numo?

    Nemo, Numo.

    There’s a lady on here who gets upset if people criticize churches in general, if you don’t preface every criticism by saying “evangelical.”

  56. Nemo wrote:

    No. Please do not confuse what SGM, Mars Hill and TVC teach with reformed theology. All three are a Frankenstein mix of charasmatic and calvinist teaching.

    So true. The real P&R below the Gospel Glitterati level that I have spoken with are not happy about being associated with the YRR. It is indeed a mix of different types of theology bound by authoritarianism and Complementarianism which is just a subtype of authoritarianism. It is no accident that Mahaney became reformed at a time when the movement was taking off. Similarly, guys like Dever had a strong Puritan theology that needed the oomph and draw that Mahaney provided. This is *not* classical covenant theology at all, and we need to be careful not to paint all SBC pastors or all P&R with this mutant tar that seems to be stuck to us.

  57. Lydia wrote:

    We see it played out in court when the Christians show up to give character witness to criminals of heinous crimes because—well— he repented. The victim sits alone and ignored. There is something wrong with this picture.
    There is a time and place to deal with the predator and criminals that say they repent. It needs to be handled with discretion and common sense. Fine, go mentor them at home or in jail. Present the victims with peace and safety, please.

    I completely agree!

    It’s disturbing how some Christians want to ignore victims but coddle aggressors and perpetrators.

    I also think it’s very naive to take an “I repent” statement from a known pedo (or other abuser) at face value, which is what most of these Duggar/J. Root defenders want to do.

    They will give mouth service to “oh sure, you have to put safeguards in place” but they’re still too trusting.

    Is this what the phrase “sloppy agape” is for?

  58. Nemo wrote:

    Dear Michaela,

    I believe you are right. I am not numo

    Thanks for the clarification. Please forgive me. It’s confusing to have two people here with nearly identical names, save one vowel.

  59. Nemo wrote:

    C.J. justified calling himself an apostle and putting himself above everyone else not because of reformed theology but because of his charismatic beliefs.

    I believe you mentioned earlier that Jenn shouldn’t place the cause of CJ’s woes on a theology. But now you are saying the cause is a Charismatic background. So, now you do the same thing you accused Jenn of doing. CJ did what he did because he wanted what he wanted (.) It wouldn’t matter what theology he was using. Authoritarian/heirarchy beliefs can run in any theology. Reformed theology, along with every other theology system, has its authoritarian problems.

    I was also in an SGM church for 17 years. The complementarian hierarchial beliefs introduced in the late 90s/early 2000 were destructive to my marriage. This is something prevelant in Reformed theology.

    SGM Survivors became toxic to me. Only certain people were allowed to express their theological issues and disagreements. Maybe you are one of few people who are allowed freedom when others aren’t.

    I just still find it strange that you followed Jenn over here to let her know what you think she is doing wrong.

  60. @ Nemo:

    No problem. I personally do not subscribe to any determinism at all which I think is the foundation of Reformed theology in general going all the way back to Augustine. However, I have wonderful Reformed friends and enjoy reading some Reformed scholars who are also terriby embarassed by the Neo Cal/YRR movement.

  61. Bridget wrote:

    SGM Survivors became toxic to me. Only certain people were allowed to express their theological issues and disagreements. Maybe you are one of few people who are allowed freedom when others aren’t.

    That was my experience, too.

  62. Michaela wrote:

    no evidence of actual molestation is known at this point.

    Yes there is. He said he molested younger children when he was a child.

  63. Lydia,

    Page 152 (Texas statutes) of the child porn criminal statutes document from the National District Attorneys Association, link I posted to you above, lays out the relevant laws that Jordan Root would be subjected to in Texas.

  64. dee wrote:

    no evidence of actual molestation is known at this point.

    Yes there is. He said he molested younger children when he was a child.

    I think their was a name error above. Someone else made that point and I refuted it and quoted the correct sentence from Karen’s statement that Jordan Root had admitted to her that he molested a couple of children.

  65. Bridget wrote:

    I was also in an SGM church for 17 years. The complementarian hierarchial beliefs introduced in the late 90s/early 2000 were destructive to my marriage. This is something prevelant in Reformed theology.

    I didn’t know that. So very sorry you went through that mess, and I hope that you and your husband have de-toxed. And it is too bad that you cannot share at the SGM Survivors site anymore. I stopped reading when the no-go topic of ESS came up. I was puzzled by that because it is the foundation for the submission doctrine in marriage and the clergy. It is used to shore up Ephesians 5 and Hebrews 13 and fill in the gaps. Of course it doesn’t when you study those, but it *seems* so right and Bibley.

    I will try to remember this information, but I do forget people’s stories. I agree with you about Reformed theology to the extent that it does make a distinction between clergy and laity which I deny. I do think that there can be people who do not use that to abuse but to protect. Others use that to justify what they would justify any other way necessary. IIRC, Mahaney or maybe Tomczak was part of Maranatha, and that was a big shepherding thing. Charismatic theology, like Reformed theology, can be used to justify lording it over people by appointing apostles with apostolic authority. Other charismatic groups don’t have that emphasis, at least there are some that I know that do not.

    The bottom line is that abusers and control freaks will find a way to justify their sin. It’s just that the ground for justification looks a little different.

  66. Gram3 wrote:

    I stopped reading when the no-go topic of ESS came up. I was puzzled by that because it is the foundation for the submission doctrine in marriage and the clergy. It is used to shore up Ephesians 5 and Hebrews 13 and fill in the gaps. Of course it doesn’t when you study those, but it *seems* so right and Bibley.

    Yes. I got into a long discussion with someone on that site about ESS. Needless to say, we disagreed. But the person found the need to warn me that TWW could be a dangerous place due to everyone being “free” to discuss differing theological perspectives, skme of which this person thought were heretical. I, on the other hand, am more concerned when freedom is denied 🙂

  67. Dear Daisy and Michaela,

    Easy mistake to make. No worries. If you like Dickens, Nemo was a character in Bleak House.

  68. Dear Bridget,

    I hesitate to respond because this should be about Karen and not you or me.

    I will say my piece and let you or others have the last word.

    I do not believe you read my comments before you criticized me.

    I said, “Sadly this behavior can and has spanned all denominations, theologies, religions and secular institutions.” I responded to Jenn because I felt she was wrongly turning this issue into a theology complaint instead of what is truly the problem. In the past she has been insulting to those who do not share her beliefs. I mentioned C.J.’s, Driscoll’s, and Chandler’s charismatic beliefs to give Jenn another possible explanation so she will stop blaming everything on reformed theology.

    Membership contracts and church discipline on hyperdrive can be traced to the Shepherding Movement which came from the charismatic movement, and C.J. considering himself above everyone else and calling himself an apostle came from the five fold ministry movement, which also came out of the charismatic movement. And I believe complementarian hierarchial beliefs came out of both of them. It would be unfair to blame the charismatic movement for the issues we are addressing; the vast majority of charasmatics do not morph into C.J. Mahaney. But to blame reformed theology is ludicrous.

    The moderators of SGM Survivors want to keep the discussion on point and not about endless theological arguments. They tolerate them for a brief period or until people get insulting. If you have had problems with their moderation, keep that in mind.

    I did not “follow Jenn over here”. Like everyone else I am concerned about Christ’s church and leader’s poor response to child abuse. I find this statement insulting.

  69. Nemo wrote:

    Dear Daisy and Michaela,

    Easy mistake to make. No worries. If you like Dickens, Nemo was a character in Bleak House.

    You’re a sweetheart. Thanks so much! (I don’t remember my Dickens’ characters. I will have to check it out.)

  70. Lydia wrote:

    @ Bridget:

    I was banned over there due to ESS and did not even know it until John Immel told me! :o)

    Their loss! We know quality over here!