Part 1-Jordan Root Is a Confessed Internet Child Sex Abuser: Should The Village Church Trust Him?

The sexual abuse and exploitation of children is one of the most vicious crimes conceivable, a violation of mankind's most basic duty to protect the innocent. -James T. Walsh link

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I am hoping to fill in some background so that people will better understand the seriousness of Jordan Root's support and use of internet child sex abuse. I personally believe that he is at high risk for offending and am concerned that he has already offended. You will see that he is constantly putting himself into situations in which he is around at risk, vulnerable children while at the same time confessing, yet not confessing. 

Today, a number of bloggers received the PDF that was sent to 6,000 covenant™ members of TVC. It is purportedly the *real* story of the Roots. However, just remember that TVC is currently scrubbing videos from the internet as discussed in our last post. The question to ask is this. Who do you trust and why do you trust them?

Remember, we are all positionally holy but we are all functional sinners. Pastors and elders sin as well. However, many pastors and elders want to appear godly and authoritative- you know, *good* Christians but they are no different than the rest of us. TWW has documented problem after problem with pastors and leaders. 

I will discuss the TVC mailing on another post. For now, I am hoping this post will add some much needed information. I have spoken with Karen on a number of occasions and have tried to construct a chronology of events and concerns. She is one smart woman. I only wish I had been as smart when I was her age. I believe what she has to say.

I am going to be a bit matter of fact as I discuss Jordan's history as told to me by Karen. We also have some historical documentation thanks to our internet sleuth, Christian Janeway. I am going to ask everyone who reads this to ponder the details of Jordan's life and ask yourselves if this is a man who should be trusted and believed. 

Prior to college

Jordan confessed to Karen that he repeatedly sexually abused 2 younger children when he was between the ages of 6 and 10 years old. He also spent time babysitting and working in a daycare in Albany NY. This is documented at Watchkeep: She Speaks

Cedarville University

Jordan  graduated from Cedarville with a degree in psychology. His passion was for kids and human trafficking. Here is a link from the Cedarville student newspaper which featured Jordan Root in an article. Ministry Reaches Modern Outcasts, written by Melanie Frageorgia, has this to say about Jordan.

Pimps? Prostitutes? Most Christians want nothing to do with them. But for junior Jordan Root these “untouchables of our time” are his calling.

Root started the Broken Chains organization “to create a passion for raising awareness of and taking  action against child sex trafficking,” according to its official newsletter. The organization was born at the close of the 2005 spring semester, when Root decided to get together with like-minded friends to discuss what could be done about the sex trade. 

…Root said that the long term goal of Broken Chains is to help sponsor a safe house for children rescued out of brothels. He hopes the organization will someday send mission teams to the safe house, and that Broken Chains might even become a non-profit organization with a wider reach than Cedarville University. 

…Broken Chains recently held a coin drive, and plans to raise more funds for the safe house by selling t-shirts printed with “Save the Pimps.” 

…Root first felt the call to missions in eighth grade on a trip to Costa Rica, but it was not until his freshman year of college that he learned about sex trafficking. He read an article on the New York Times’ website about children- involved in the sex trade in Mexico and the United States. Root was devastated.

“It was the first time I’d ever been exposed to it,” he said, “God just really gripped my heart.” His life’s goal became to “be a counselor/ caretaker of children rescued from the sex trade and to help rescue children from the sex trade.” Broken Chains was born out of his struggle to find something he could do while still in school.

Since starting the organization, Root has changed his major from education to applied psychology, with an emphasis on family-child studies to better enable him to counsel hurting children. ​

…Root is also currently in- involved in the Jeremiah Project- , a “street witnessing” ministry mainly targeting prostitutes. Students in this ministry travel to the inner city on Friday nights and simply talk to whoever they meet, whether prostitutes, pimps, homeless people, or people coming out of bars and clubs. 

… Root is also a leader for Cedarkids, a ministry that serves local children, and he is thinking of starting a ministry for the children of prostitutes. 

From Watchkeep She Speaks, there is documentation on his activities involving children. Note the unpaid babysitting gigs.

 … Daycare in Cedarville, OH (Period of time between 2004 and 2007) 

…substantial amount of unpaid babysitting over these years Cedarville, OH, 

Dallas Theological Seminary/Dallas

 Now, take a look his activities involving children during this period of time.

  •       Summer Camp at First Baptist Dallas, Dallas, TX (May-August 2008)
  •       Dolfin Swim School, Dallas, TX (September 2008-July 2010)
  •       In Class Learning Differences Aid, Dallas, TX (September-December 2010)
  • ​      Practicum Counselor at Dallas Life, Dallas, TX (worked with families and children; January-August 2011)
  •        Private Children's Swim Instructor, Dallas, TX (June-September 2011)
  •        Mental Health Technician at Timberlawn Mental Health Services, Dallas, TX (November 2011-March 2012)
  •       Therapist on the Child and Adolescent Unit at Timberlawn Mental Health Services, Dallas, TX (March 2012-May 2014)
  •       A substantial amount of paid babysitting over these years in Albany, NY, Cedarville, OH, and Dallas, TX

Unpaid:

  •        Informal Children's Ministry to Refugee Children in Vickery Meadows, Dallas, TX (2008-2011)
  •        Lived in Santa Fe Trails Apartment Complex, Dallas, TX; spent a lot of time alone with children (2008-2012)
  •        Volunteered in children’s and youth ministries at various churches in Dallas, TX 
  •        A substantial amount of unpaid babysitting over these years in  Dallas, TX 
  •        He enrolls in DTS with the intent to get a counseling degree with a specialty in children.

Manipulation of thought observed in hindsight

Karen makes an important observation about his work with children. He was confronted about spending time alone with children and, on one occasion, was told by an adult that she was uncomfortable with the way he was sitting with and touching a child. He acted shocked and remorseful that his behavior would come off that way. He often would speak out against stereotyping by gender. He believed that people were biased against men spending time with children.

She said that people thought he was unusual in the nicest of ways because he seemed so concerned about children. The children and parents put him on a pedestal or as Karen said "he was like Jesus to them." He was well versed in child safety and emphasized this with the adults and children with whom he worked. He even warned people about the prevalence of child sexual abuse, particularly the grooming process.

Jordan lived alone

He seemed to want to leave his schedule *open* so that he was flexible and had a lot fo free time to himself. He had arranged to live alone for about 2-3 years in Vickery Meadows where he had consistent access to the children of refugees. He apparently enjoyed entertaining children alone in his apartment during this time period. He also kept pictures of many of the individual children that he had worked with in a box. 

Questions you should ask

Here is where astute people should start asking questions. This is unusual behavior if all he was interested in was internet child sex abuse sites.

  • Why all of the push to be alone with children?
  • And, in hindsight, knowing that he was sexually stimulated by little children (starting at 4 years old to prepubescent), why would he put himself in a situation in which to be alone with them? 
  • Wouldn't he want time off so he could go do his evil deeds on the internet?
  • Don't you think we could possibly be dealing with a molester in this situation?
  • ​Would you let your little girl spend the day with him? 

Jordan meets Karen 

He meets Karen in 2009 and they began to date in the spring of 2011. Karen was a hard worker who held a number of jobs to support herself. Although both were seminary students, they met at the Dolfin Swim School where they both worked. They were engaged in October 2011. Jordan had graduated with his counseling degree but was quite slow to find a job. They were married in April 2012.

Karen had served as a summer missionary in Ethiopia and wanted to become a full time missionary. So did Jordan. Jordan did not want to go to Ethiopia and instead the couple decided to find an area that they both would like to serve. They agreed to minister to an unreached people group. 

The beginning of the fraud or what Karen calls "pseudoconfession"

Prior to the marriage, Jordan *confessed* (there is a reason I put this in asterisks as you will see) to Karen that he had a struggle with pornography. Karen quizzed him in depth and his answers confirmed that it was an issue with adult pornography of various kinds. For years, he claimed that night became a turning point and repeatedly told Karen and others that he had not used pornography throughout the rest of their engagement and marriage. Karen believed his confession, including the reassurance that it was in the past.

Folks, think about it. He covered himself with a plausible lesser sin which, of course, had been overcome. Think manipulation. Remember, through this whole process, he was lying and had been lying for a very long time. What was true then and what is true now? Perhaps we should see what we do know. He loved being around little kids and loved to be alone with them. That is something to focus on. Why?

The Village Church/Covenant

They knew they had to work to pay off their student loans before going on the mission field which would take a few years. They decided to join TVC and were asked to sign the membership covenant. Karen remembers this part of the covenant. (Just to save some folks some time, we have downloaded the whole thing so taking it off the website will be in vain.)

I will seek to preserve the gift of marriage and agree to walk through the steps of marriage reconciliation at The Village Church before pursuing divorce from my spouse (Matthew 19:1-12; Mark 10:1-12; Luke 16:18; 1 Corinthians 7:10-11; for the role of the church in the process of divorce, see Paul’s concern for the resolution of legal matters within the assembly of the church in 1 Corinthians 6).

She said to me:

I was so naive. I knew I had married for life. I was going to be a missionary with my husband. I would never pursue a divorce. How could I ever imagine something of this magnitude?

I will be writing a separate post on the TVC Membership Covenant later in the week. She is right. How could someone imagine someone so deceptive would invade her life and change it forever? And how could she envisage how badly the church she loved would treat her? 

The Mission Field and Pseudoconfession

At last, their support was raised and they entered the mission field with SIM. TVC supplied less than 10% of their budget although several other TVC folks supported them individually. They arrived ready to serve in August 2014. They served in different capacities, and Karen was often gone from their living quarters. Karen began to sense things were not right, but she couldn't put her finger on it. 

On Thanksgiving evening, she caught Jordan in an unassociated lie. But she knew there was more and she began to push him to disclose what was going on. He confessed to masturbation which was quite surprising since he had often spoken out against it and declared his own high standards for sexual purity. After being pressed further, he finally confessed to accessing nude pictures of adults.

Karen was dissatisfied and asked him many times over the next 3 weeks if he was being honest. He absolutely denied that there was anything else. Karen was extremely conflicted because she sensed that things were not right but he was repentant, right? 

The Reveal: Was it another incomplete confession?

And then, the shoe dropped. On December 16, as Karen continued to probe, she asked a particular question, and Jordan's reaction revealed that more was going on. She said a calm came over her and she was able to talk with him without being hysterical or angry. He confessed that he had been viewing internet child sex abuse for about 10 years. He then went into graphic detail of the sort of dark and gruesome stuff he remembered watching. Karen says it is hard for her to even describe what he told her. This is when he also admitted to molesting two younger children when he was between the ages of 6 and 10.

Karen went into the bedroom and called her SIM advisor who immediately began to arrange for Jordan's flight back to the United States. Karen would follow 4 weeks later. Oddly, when she came out of the bedroom, Jordan was sleeping soundly, apparently unconcerned.

Karen speaks highly of SIM's response and her fellow missionaries

Karen was impressed at how seriously SIM took this situation. They were also kind to her, offering counsel and support. She was also complimentary of the mission staff with whom she served. To this day, she remains supportive of them and does not want their location disclosed.

Karen returned to the United States broken and hurting. Her life was turned upside down. Little did she know that her trial had not yet ended. We will take up the rest of the story tomorrow.

The Questions

  • Do you believe Jordan's confession?
  • The first thing you should ask is "Which confession?" since the first two confessions left out vital information.
  • So why should you believe the final confession?
  • What details did he leave out?
  • Why do you think Jordan liked to hang around little kids and have them in his apartment when he was alone?
  • Do you trust him when he claims nothing happened?
  • Does his track record suggest that you should trust him?

My opinion

I believe that Jordan is a pathological liar who has lied for many years in order to cover his pedophile tendencies and internet child sex abuse. Did he molest his two younger children when he was a child or is this just the prelude to a bigger confession? It is obvious that the story gets worse and worse the more he confesses. I believe that there is more to come, given his history.

Tomorrow we will discuss how TVC has handled Jordan's problems. 

To Karen,

I am so sorry for the pain that you have experienced at the hands of your former husband and others. You are a hero. I dedicate this song to you.

Comments

Part 1-Jordan Root Is a Confessed Internet Child Sex Abuser: Should The Village Church Trust Him? — 478 Comments

  1. Mr.H wrote:

    Nouthetic counseling is a horrible, horrible thing, invented by a non-expert named Jay Adams in the 60s and 70s. It’s very name is drawn from the Greek verb used in the New Testament for “rebuke.” As you might guess, it errs towards victim-blaming and revictimization. Not to mention – it was created as the antithesis to professional, clinical psychological therapy

    “Just like Dianetics, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

    L Ron Hubbard would be proud.

  2. Gram3 wrote:

    It is always wise to keep your eye on people who want to rule over you. In the case of the Reconstructionists and their heirs, I don’t think they will be a big problem for one very practical reason. If everyone in the group wants to be the king, sooner or later everyone will be trying to kill off everyone else in the group. That’s difficult to believe unless you know some of these people and have observed them.

    “Not difficult. I grew up in King’s Landing.”
    — Maester Aemon Targeryn

    House Lannister sends their regards…

  3. Burwell Stark wrote:

    By viewing the deliberate, methodical and repeated torture and rape of children, Root undoubtedly has undergone chemical, neurological and most likely physical changes in his central nervous system (i.e., his brain). His way of thinking is NOT normal by any standard definition and he has become hardened/de-sensitized in ways you cannot imagine.

    I think this is what the Bible refers to as “a hardened heart”, “a conscience seared by a white-hot iron”. Poetic ways of describing this rewiring and reprogramming of the central nervous system.

    Or, to paraphrase Roos Bolton in Game of Thrones, “Root has his own way of doing things.”

  4. @ Haitch:

    There are some people like this in the medical profession-or at least there certainly used to be. I am not sure what you mean by sexual harassment but being a generally nasty person and taking it out on the little guy-sure. In fact, a certain level of that has been not all that uncommon in health care in my experience. These people may indeed be the greatest guy on earth to the patients who basically adore them. And the hospital may genuinely adore how many patients he admits and how many procedures he does ($$$$) so no use complaining as long as he is a rain maker.

  5. Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    Because I am terrified of what will happen to me if those types of Christians get the power and control they want, so I need to keep an eye on them.

    There are things that I am worried about also. Probably not exactly terrified, but concerned. And it does seem to be that if things in general get really difficult then somebody will come along and try to identify the source of the problems and then target groups of people. I am concerned about a backlash due to some of the current immigration issues. A couple of my grandchildren are Asian and could easily be in some difficulty should things erupt. But I think that problems could arise from either side of the political spectrum and from either hyper-conservative christians or total heathen.

    So, yes, stuff could happen. I hope it will not. I plan to continue to live as if it will not. But I do not dismiss your concerns.

  6. Pingback: The Red Pill and The Village Church | Echoes and Stars UNITED STATES

  7. Nancy wrote:

    And it does seem to be that if things in general get really difficult then somebody will come along and try to identify the source of the problems and then target groups of people. I am concerned about a backlash due to some of the current immigration issues. A couple of my grandchildren are Asian and could easily be in some difficulty should things erupt.

    World War II prison camps for people of Japanese descent, anyone? Frighteningly, that’s not too far in our (United States) past.

  8. @ Albuquerque Blue:

    The IRS can now penalize you for not buying health insurance. Our state is requring workers to have their waists measured to get lower health care costs taht are 30% higher than last year at the low cost. That was not the work of Fundy Christians who want to micromanage your life.

    I simply do not understand why one is worried about what has not happened yet to officially control your life but not worried about what has already officially happened to control you.

  9. @ Lydia:
    Lydia actually any problems I have with the requirement for health insurance is that I’d prefer to go to single payer health insurance, we haven’t gone far enough yet. And I’d disagree with Fundy Christians trying to micromanage my life, considering how much they interfere in healthcare (birth control & family planning), education (teaching creationism and forcing a substandard sex ed), equality and many other topics. I submit that as a member of the majority religion you may not see how it treats the rest of us.

    I believe you’re a libertarian of the right wing, correct me if I’m wrong. Well I’m a libertarian socialist myself and I bet we could talk politics all day long, in a pretty lively way. However this isn’t the best place for that maybe? Allow me to leave you the last word though.

  10. mirele wrote:

    There is something very wrong here. If Jordan was looking at child pr0n on his computer, there should have been traces, unless he took a sledgehammer to the hard drive and replaced it with another one. Or something. I am not liking this one bit.

    Each of the major browser has a method for browsing without leaving anything behind:
    IE: InPrivate Browsing
    Chrome: incognito
    Firefox: Private Window.
    Also, if he knows computers well, there are utilities that are available that will write garbage over deleted files, making it pretty much impossible to recover anything.

    The lack of any evidence just tells me this guy knows how to cover his tracks.

  11. I haven’t read all of the comments on this thread yet, so I hope what I am about to say hasn’t been said. The manner in which TVC is treating Karen reminds me of the Scripture: “You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel!” Mt. 23:24 The gnat in this case is Karen’s refusal to be under the care of the elders at TVC because she signed a document of covenant membership. The camel is Jordan Root’s sin – that of finding perverse pleasure in watching children being molested over the course of ten years! How can the elders at TVC not see what is wrong with this picture?

  12. sam wrote:

    Deb wrote:
    I have had Karen on my mind the entire day, and I have come to the conclusion that what has happened to her is PROVIDENTIAL.
    The egregious situation in which she finds herself is giving us a birds eye view of the atrocities that are being carried out in the name of Jesus Christ, which have largely been concealed to both those on the inside and outside of Neo-Cal churches.
    This is the revamped shepherding movement, and it is wreaking havoc in congregations across the U.S., especially those aligning themselves with Acts 29 and 9Marx (NOT a typo!)
    I absolutely believe our beloved Karen is in this terrible mess FOR SUCH A TIME AS THIS.
    i agree!
    Esther called for the nation to fast and pray for her during her ‘SUCH A TIME AS THIS.’ i think we should too

    Just letting the TWW family know that I am fasting and praying for Karen today.

  13. I’ve attended TVC in Flower Mound for just over three years and it’s very sad to see how people outside our community are stretching truth and making assumptions about this sad situation. I’ve read all the correspondence and understand where both parties are coming from.

    It’s clear from all that I’ve read in these comments that there will be no changing minds. Logic will not sway. Truth will not will out. The witch hunt is on and no one wants to extinguish their torch. That’s fine. I’m not going to address covenant membership or the pros and cons. As my wife is Catholic, we have never made the leap into covenant membership. She attends TVC weekly (as do our children) but was uncertain if membership would require rebaptism, so we’ve been content to attend regularly and not make things official until we move closer to the Flower Mound campus. So, as we aren’t covenant members, it would be disingenuous to discuss something I have no personal experience with…and would be hypocritical, since the problem I have with most of your arguments is that you know neither the players nor the system.

    I did want to comment on two assumptions I’ve seen made regarding power (or control) and money.

    First, one of the things that drew me to TVC (after a few years on staff at another large church) was the transparency of the elders and staff. Matt Chandler has repeatedly discussed his own fallen nature, the various backgrounds Christ has saved the staff from, etc. etc. In three years, he has never rallied people to vote Republican, has preached against societal Dallas area Christianity that can be a haven of deception, has worked to make the church a safe place for anyone struggling in sin to know and be known because we’re all messy in our wickedness. He’s preached hard truth that many megachurch pastors refuse to discuss for fear of driving people away…and has, in fact, refused to build a megachurch because he believes real church is us building community with each other and NOT what happens on the weekend. The multi-campus model is designed to spin off independent churches. Our Denton campus, for instance, is becoming its own entity, no longer tied to or sharing an elder body with TVC…and that is the goal for EVERY campus.

    TVC has an elder body, yes. Each pastor is an elder of the larger church body. However, there are always more non-paid, lay staff on elder board as a safety catch…so that it doesn’t become a bunch of “yes men” that vote a certain way to keep their paycheck coming.

    And lets talk about money. Someone posted about the number of members and the kind of money that brings in. The only thing right about that post was that, yes, the church bring in a significant amount of money. However, in 3 years, I have never seen an offering taken up in service nor have I heard money talked about in a service (unless they ask for a vote on how to spend it…which happened once, when we purchased our Plano campus.) People give gladly and TVC is transparent with their budget and spending. Matt Chandler drives a ’08 Honda and lives in a modest house. He has signed over his book royalties to the church (because what he does is in service of the church) and is funneled into missions and smaller churches…and takes no salary for his work with ACTS 29. Likewise, our worship team has chosen to sign over the royalties for the songs they write for TVC. Our ministers live humbly. And Matt and his family tithe back out of his pay, as well as budget for charity. Their daughter, who LOVES horses, had to wait several years for Matt and Lauren to find a way to fit a horse into their budget and, ultimately, the family had to sacrifice and save to make it happen. These are not people living high on the tithes of the people. In fact, Matt is usually the first to condemn that sort of thing.

    Secondly, if money were important to them, spinning off our campuses into their own entities would go against that goal. As it is, when there has been a surplus in the past, they present to the church a plan to put some into missions, some to help smaller churches with fewer financial sources, and to plant more churches elsewhere. They never save money or upgrade the sound system or any of that stuff. They ALWAYS sow it back into the kingdom in hands other than their own. ALWAYS.

    If you attended TVC and knew the elders, most of these arguments would be non-starters. The level of transparency is unparalleled. The amount of care taken to keep our church from being “The Matt Chandler Show” and his yes men is tremendous and led by Matt, who is aware of the temptation of and problems with a closed system. After reading all the correspondence, I see a church wanting to keep their end of a covenant that the member, sadly, no longer cares about. And SIM, who originally had no problem with her, is left wondering why they should send someone into the field who cares so little about her church covenant.

    As for Jordan, the email sent to covenant members makes it clear the sort of restrictive measures placed on him. TVC believes in counseling and while, yes, they have a few church-based programs in place for support, they DO NOT believe those are a substitute for psychiatric help, medications prescribed, etc. Matt Chandler is a big proponent of common grace coming to us through doctors, psychiatrists, etc. He doesn’t deny that God can miraculously heal, but he’s talked time and again about God’s grace to us coming through medicine and counseling. He’s also not one to just believe Jordan just because he submits to authority…which is why there are precautions put in place. Several years ago, a man in the congregation left his wife and the elders entreated him to return home and work on his marriage. Instead, he found a new girlfriend and tried to bring her to church. They asked him to leave and circled around the wife and children with support. This is not a men vs. women thing. While you may not agree with their handling of the situation, I believe their desire is truly to love rightly and not about power or control. But I also know that, since you don’t know those you are accusing, I’ll not convince you of that.

  14. @ Mr.H:

    you’re funny. but how is it that church leaders/culture there seem to have such power over other industries?

    is that a very large percentage of the population go to church, including those with wealth and power whom church leaders glom onto to co-opt their influence?

    why do church leaders feel this is all well and good? do average church-goers also see no real problem with this? or is it something they are ignorant of?

    it’s all very weird to me. like some parallel reality, based on values that are embraced as good but are actually very crappy.

  15. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    And SIM, who originally had no problem with her, is left wondering why they should send someone into the field who cares so little about her church covenant.

    I’m glad you commented here to provide one perspective of a member at The Village. This sentence that I quoted demolishes the entirety of the rest of your comment, however, for people who are looking in. And that is because you are focusing on a trivial matter which is *not* as clear as you would like to portray it.

    I have known SIM since it was Sudan Interior Mission. You are totally wrong about that organization. Period. I know the Dallas church scene and seminary scene–SWBTS and DTS–fairly well. At one time I knew it very well. I know people who know it very well. So, you are totally off-base by suggesting that SIM has been disadvantaged *at all* by this, and least of all by Karen’ actions. On the contrary, they acted well, while The Village has acted like the totalitarians. Please re-think this because you are mistaken about SIM.

    You cannot demonstrate that The Village did not break its covenant by failing to guard her interests as the offended party. To most everyone without an interest in the System this is plain. This covenant came with responsibilities for the ELDERS to fulfill, and they did not fulfill those responsibilities, unless you want to define said responsibilities as being limited to protecting their reputations and telling a woman that she must submit to their perverted notion of what constitutes a marriage and their perverted notions of leadership and their perverted notions of the Gospel, and their perverted notions of who is the Spiritual Authority of each and every member of *Christ’s Body* which is not subject to the arbitrary power plays of some immature men who have let their own self-importance rob them of any semblance of sound reason, never mind any semblance of Christ.

    You do not know who I know. You do not know that I am quite familiar with the System. So please do not tell me that I do not know how the System works or who pulls the strings. I don’t know all of them, but I know some of them, and they all sing from the same sheet and in perfect harmony. There is not a courageous one among them, from all appearances. They are bullies, and it is very concerning that you cannot see their anti-Christian behavior for what it is because you are so focused on a technicality that is totally fabricated in the first place!

    If you would like to discuss any of the issues using logic and the texts of the Bible, I’m more than willing to do that. Unlike the Gospel Glitterati, I do know how to reason, and I do know how to read the text, and I do *not* have any interests invested in making God say things he did not say. Including that the Son is the Father’s gopher. Yeah, those words sound blasphemous, don’t they? But they convey the real meaning behind their doctrine of eternal subordination. Do you believe that Jesus is a 2nd Lieutenant in the Trinity?

    I have no doubt that you have sincere appreciation for Matt Chandler. But it has blinded you to the reality. If you had a daughter who suddenly discovered they she was married to a pedophile, are you saying that you would march her down to the office of the ELDERS and make her submit to a “covenant” which nowhere says anything whatsoever about annulment. Nowhere does The Village say what someone signing their covenant is agreeing to, and they make their covenant mean what they want it to mean to serve their own interests. Just like they do with God’s words.

    A covenant does not exist when one party breaks it. Even the pagans in the state of Texas know that. Why is this so difficult for people who claim the name of Christ to see? This is 1 Corinthians being acted out before our very eyes. Along with Galatians. And Revelation 3. Wake up. Please. Before your daughters or granddaughters are caught in this deception.

  16. @ Eagle:
    That might be off-putting to many – to compare a voluntary signing of a church statement to slave labor and all it’s death and horrors. Not saying the village handled this correctly…. But SHEESH get some perspective.

  17. @ Eagle:
    That might be off-putting to many – to compare a voluntary signing of a church statement to slave labor and all it’s death and horrors. Not saying the village handled this correctly…. But SHEESH get some perspective.Eagle wrote:

    Its disturbing. I am working on an Open Letter to Matt Younger at my blog. In reading and re-reading Matt’s letters to Karen it strikes me that there is no room for compromise. Life is hard, people get ill, people lose jobs, there are a million and one things that could trigger problems with membership covenants. I am viewing them as a modern day form of slavery.

    I made a comment a second ago about his inappropriate it would be to compare voluntary church covenants to slave labor and this is the quote/comment i was referring to.

  18. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Mr.H:
    you’re funny. but how is it that church leaders/culture there seem to have such power over other industries?
    is that a very large percentage of the population go to church, including those with wealth and power whom church leaders glom onto to co-opt their influence?
    why do church leaders feel this is all well and good? do average church-goers also see no real problem with this? or is it something they are ignorant of?
    it’s all very weird to me. like some parallel reality, based on values that are embraced as good but are actually very crappy.

    It is a very weird reality, I agree. I don’t fully understand it myself.

    The best I can come up with is to point to the centuries-old role that the church has played in Southern society. It’s like, in Texas, being in a church is like having a membership at a country club. It’s a social component. No offense against Methodists, but they in particular have a strong reputation for this in Texas. Rich white folks who want some sort of social group / cause they can support. I think Baptists, who started out largely as a fiery, revivalist reaction against Mainline denominations, have slowly succumbed to the very thing they arose in reaction to. So now you have rich white folks (of which suburban Dallas has many) who are a part of Baptist churches for social reasons. “It’s just what good Texans do.” etc. etc.

  19. Actually, before you can become a covenant member, you must attend a class where they discuss your covenant to the church and the elders’ covenant with you and BOTH groups must sign. It is also sent for renewal EVERY YEAR so that you have the opportunity to revisit it. You must sign it again, each year, to remain a covenant member.

    Chandler and the pastors at The Village have NEVER taught that Jesus is some sort of underling or 2nd Lieutenant, but an equal member of the Trinity in both power and authority. Take that from someone who has sat under this teaching for 3 years. Also, all the sermons are available for download if you choose to not take my word for it. But why let facts get in the way now?

    You say I do not know who you know, but I have only your word for that. That’s fine. Your use of a term like Gospel Glitterati (a term I had not heard before visiting this site) suggests a smugness that I doubt would be breached by logic or continued argument.

    As for the Elders responsibility to Karen, they had a responsibility to BOTH members (Karen AND Jordan) and, by all appearances, attempted to fulfill those responsibilities. I understand that Karen didn’t want to reconcile…and I don’t blame her. Nor do I suspect that TVC blames her…they wanted only to sit with her and go through it. Why? Because you don’t endure the trauma that Karen did–finding out your marriage was a sham and your husband a liar–and immediately start thinking clearly. Many people that rightly divorce still carry guilt over HOW they handled it. Making life altering plans in the heat of that sort of pain and sorrow and grief is seldom a good thing. And because marriage IS MEANT to be forever, those steps even when so justified, should be weighed and discussed carefully. Nowhere is it suggested that they said to go back to him. Only that moving money was a move to finality and needed to wait until they discussed it. In fact, they supported their separation, so an annulment would NOT have been denied by the state because they were not asking or expecting her to cohabitate or even meet with Jordan.

    As for my daughters, I have two. And my hope would be that their marriage would never be subject to the sort of deception and hurt that Karen has endured. I would still, however, even in the midst of anger toward the offender, caution them to take some time to let their emotions cool down before making a decision such as annulment or divorce. Then, after wise counsel from credible sources, I’d back their play. My personal counsel would be to do what Karen did and opt for annulment. My dealing with TVC leadership has not led me to believe they would have an issue with that. Are they perfect? No. Could some of the wording have been better in some emails coming from the Dallas campus? Sure. It’s called being human. Even our BEST is filthy rags, remember? So we try our best. I hate that Karen feels let down. I don’t doubt that she does, nor will I say she doesn’t have that right. She has the right feel WHATEVER feelings all this has brought out. My only point was that, knowing these men, there is no conspiracy or power grab. There is only an elder body feeling their way through a difficult situation as best than can. I’ve watched them sacrifice for the body repeatedly and humble themselves to authority. Maybe they have it wrong. It’s not my place to say since they can’t discuss all the private details and, as details go, we only have one woman’s story. However, wrong or right, I believe their ultimate goal is love and grace. I have yet to see anyone grasping for money or power in that community…and those are things I am constantly on guard for.

  20. I’ve seen them. Did you read what I wrote before? Chandler drives a ’08 Honda and gives his book royalties to the church. He also tithes from his salary AND gives an extra percentage to missions/church plants outside of the TVC supported ones. There is no THERE there.

  21. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I’ve attended TVC in Flower Mound for just over three years and it’s very sad to see how people outside our community are stretching truth and making assumptions about this sad situation. I’ve read all the correspondence and understand where both parties are coming from.
    It’s clear from all that I’ve read in these comments that there will be no changing minds. Logic will not sway. Truth will not will out.

    1. We are going by TVC’s own documentation
    2. Not sure what logic you are referring to except that you must believe your leaders are your mediator– which is not logical to me.
    3. If there is a “truth” that has not been spoken, then please enlighten us. Again, we have the documents from TVC.
    4. How have people stretched truth? ARe we not to take the words of your leaders from their own documentation seriously?

    What I think is that TVC is your normal. Most of us understand that because we have been in similar situations. You really do believe that your leaders have some sort of special annointing and they must be obeyed.. You believe that signing a membership covenant is biblical. I get that. Many of us see that as dangerous especially in an Acts 29/YRR environment.

  22. @Texas Truthsayer,

    Karen is thinking far more rationally and logically than The Village Church’s pastors/elders. It was within their power to order Jordan Root to do the following:

    1. Tell all of the names of the victims that he sexually abused, with details, and write it all down and sign it;

    2. Tell all of the electronic devices he used for child porn and how he concealed it;

    3. Go to law enforcement, confess to all crimes, and plead guilty in criminal court.

    4. The Village Church should have spear-headed the campaign to attend to Jordan Root’s victims and their families, wherever they are in the world.

    5. Instead THE FAILURES at The Village Church failed these children, their families, and Karen.

    Who cares how many *nice* times you have had at The Village Church? Who cares what kind of car that Matt Chandler has? Who cares what kind of money he gives to the church or the house he lives in?

    He and those pastors elders FAILED everyone and they bullied this dear saint Karen. It is inexcusable what they did.

    These are felony sex crimes, pal. Felonies.

  23. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I’ve seen them. Did you read what I wrote before? Chandler drives a ’08 Honda and gives his book royalties to the church. He also tithes from his salary AND gives an extra percentage to missions/church plants outside of the TVC supported ones. There is no THERE there.

    Who cares? He’s still a bully and a failure.

  24. Actually, no, I’m not concerned with “normal.” As I said, I haven’t signed a covenant and am not sure I every will. My only concern is the character of those being slandered. While I do NOT know the pastors on the Dallas campus, nothing I’ve known of Chandler or the Flower Mound pastors and elders would lead me to suspect anything but grace as their intent. So, when people start saying “it’s all about control” or “it’s all about the money” when I have experience with such places and purposely and prayerfully chose TVC because they do neither of those things, I can’t just sit back and shrug. Chandler takes instruction humbly and frequently from the elders and the lay people on the elder board are there specifically to prevent “yes man” syndrome. All financials are completely transparent to covenant members (and guys like me that happen to see them anyway) and they don’t make any moves (opening new campuses, splitting a campus off as a separate entity, giving millions in overages to other ministries, etc.) without putting it to the body as a whole. They are the most open-handed church I have ever had the pleasure to experience. Forgive me for believing what I have seen and experienced for myself over the opinions of people looking in on an emotional situation from the outside.

    As for Acts 29, though I know little about the organization other than Chandler’s involvement, it’s well known that he was instrumental in removing Driscoll for the sort of abuses you are now accusing him of. If he would do that for the ultimate benefit of a friend (Driscoll) and a church (Mars Hill), do you think he would willingly let that same trouble brew on one of his own campuses? I guarantee you that if thinks abuse happened, we’ll start seeing Dallas staff on probation or removed from ministry. He doesn’t play. He knows he has to answer to God one day for the people in his care and I have never seen him NOT take that very seriously.

  25. Lydia wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    I’ve attended TVC in Flower Mound for just over three years and it’s very sad to see how people outside our community are stretching truth and making assumptions about this sad situation. I’ve read all the correspondence and understand where both parties are coming from.
    It’s clear from all that I’ve read in these comments that there will be no changing minds. Logic will not sway. Truth will not will out.
    1. We are going by TVC’s own documentation
    2. Not sure what logic you are referring to except that you must believe your leaders are your mediator– which is not logical to me.
    3. If there is a “truth” that has not been spoken, then please enlighten us. Again, we have the documents from TVC.
    4. How have people stretched truth? ARe we not to take the words of your leaders from their own documentation seriously?
    What I think is that TVC is your normal. Most of us understand that because we have been in similar situations. You really do believe that your leaders have some sort of special annointing and they must be obeyed.. You believe that signing a membership covenant is biblical. I get that. Many of us see that as dangerous especially in an Acts 29/YRR environment.

    Texas,

    Lydia asks good questions above. We are trying not to make any assumptions beyond TVC’s own documentation, Karen’s, and public record (like the annulment agreement).

    You do know that if there was ANY additional information that the leaders of your church could bring to light that would add additional credibility to their side of the story, that they would have done so already. You do know that, don’t you? The job of the Christian leader is to bring all appropriate information out into the light, whether it makes them look good, bad, or ugly. The job of the worldly leader is to control the disclosure of information, so that only what makes them look good (and their opponent bad) is dispensed.

    Ask yourself if there is ANYTHING to their side of the story that makes them look bad, and conversely, if there is ANYTHING to their side of the story that makes Karen look good. Anything at all.

  26. Michaela wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    I’ve seen them. Did you read what I wrote before? Chandler drives a ’08 Honda and gives his book royalties to the church. He also tithes from his salary AND gives an extra percentage to missions/church plants outside of the TVC supported ones. There is no THERE there.
    Who cares? He’s still a bully and a failure.

    I don’t see many other megachurch pastors with that sort of humility…nor any that consistently tell people in the audience to stop passing good churches in their own communities to drive to TVC. The man is constantly trying to shrink the church so the growth spreads into other churches.

  27. @ pcapastor:
    I have read nothing of theirs that made her look bad…only that she had no interest in talking with them. I feel her taking shots at them and, in her current state, I can understand. I feel for her and wish her well. I don’t think poorly of her for being upset. I wish she wasn’t so quick to see villainy where I believe there to be none…however, she is the recent victim of some terrible stuff and already feeling duped and mistreated, so I can see how those feelings might carry over into other situations. After my divorce, it took me years to trust again and it’s still tempting to bring pain from a past relationship into my 2nd marriage. Those hurts affect many things beyond marriage. I pray she finds what she’s looking for.

    As for additional information, TVC is not allowed to speak publicly about the private lives of members. They can speak about things within the body (such as an email to members) but not to the press or bloggers. I respect that. If they would rather look bad to a handful of people than betray what is promised in their covenant, I respect that…though it must certainly be tempting to just throw everything out there.

    As for the request to withdraw, I think it’s a matter of what both parties promised to do. Had she met with them at the point she decided to decline, I don’t think this would be an issue. I think perhaps they feel trapped by their own commitment to the covenant to do what they said they would. Since it takes two coming together in agreement to MAKE a covenant, it takes two to end it. Instead, she’s just said she’s done…which is not how it works, nor what she agreed to. But I’d like to see them let it go for their own sake and hers. But that’s not my call.

  28. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    I’ve seen them. Did you read what I wrote before? Chandler drives a ’08 Honda and gives his book royalties to the church. He also tithes from his salary AND gives an extra percentage to missions/church plants outside of the TVC supported ones. There is no THERE there.
    Who cares? He’s still a bully and a failure.

    I don’t see many other megachurch pastors with that sort of humility…nor any that consistently tell people in the audience to stop passing good churches in their own communities to drive to TVC. The man is constantly trying to shrink the church so the growth spreads into other churches.

    Oh he’s so *humble* that he takes out this dear woman [Karen] before 6000 people when she’s been through enough. They insinuate themselves into her life and personal business, ordering everything from her finances on through.

    By the way, how did they know she had a separate financial account? From Jordan Root?

    How come they didn’t make him turn himself in and confess to all of his crimes?
    Why didn’t they order him to plead ‘guilty’?

  29. Michaela wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Michaela wrote:
    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    I’ve seen them. Did you read what I wrote before? Chandler drives a ’08 Honda and gives his book royalties to the church. He also tithes from his salary AND gives an extra percentage to missions/church plants outside of the TVC supported ones. There is no THERE there.
    Who cares? He’s still a bully and a failure.
    I don’t see many other megachurch pastors with that sort of humility…nor any that consistently tell people in the audience to stop passing good churches in their own communities to drive to TVC. The man is constantly trying to shrink the church so the growth spreads into other churches.
    Oh he’s so *humble* that he takes out this dear woman [Karen] before 6000 people when she’s been through enough. They insinuate themselves into her life and personal business, ordering everything from her finances on through.
    By the way, how did they know she had a separate financial account? From Jordan Root?
    How come they didn’t make him turn himself in and confess to all of his crimes?
    Why didn’t they order him to plead ‘guilty’?

    He was required to cooperate with DPD and FBI as one of many steps to maintain membership. The FBI has, thus far, filed no charges. You don’t plead guilty unless you are on trial for something. Just like the police don’t arrest you if you confess to a crime they find no proof of. So, TVC is left to tend to the spiritual side of the issue and leave the legal system to do it’s own work. Their only expectation is Jordan’s cooperation.

    As for the separate account, Karen said that she asked them to talk to Jordan about a separation of finances. That would be how they knew she wanted a separate account. For the record, I disagree strongly with some of the wording of their follow-up email…however, I believe their intent was good but muddied by poor wording.

    And, yes, humble. You can’t pick one thing you disagree with in the entirety of someone’s life and try to paint them as a villain. All I have ever seen is humility and he is not the HEAD pastor, he is the teaching pastor and, thus, is subject to the board of elders…not making decisions on him own or even leading the charge. He’s only the most visible because he’s an outstanding proclaimer of the Gospel.

  30. @ Michaela:
    Michaela wrote:

    Email

    So, we just inspect your life, find the worst moment…or at least the one most often misunderstood, and sit in judgement on you? Or does it take more than one instance? Because, I’ve got three years of constant gracious behavior on which to form my opinion. You’ve got one situation. If you don’t see the problem with that, I don’t know what else to say.

  31. Michaela wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    @ Michaela:
    I find him to be neither, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
    In life, Behavior is Truth.

    Sorry. My previous reply was to this comment.

    And I’m friends with a teacher who accidentally hit a child with her car. In a panic, she ran. She found out the boy died, put her house in order (one child was getting married, one expecting a child) and said her goodbyes and, then, turned herself in a few days later. People were incensed that she waited. Incensed that she fled the scene in panic. To that, I said two things, you cannot know what you will do or say until you are in the horror of that moment. And, secondly, that one moment, no matter how awful, does not erase the years of good and service, compassion and grace. So, even if I thought Chandler, et al. to be inexcusably wrong in this instance, it would not erase the years of humility, compassion and open-handedness with money and resources that I have witnessed over the last 3 years. And I think it’s unfair to take a situation that you are not personally involved in, assume you know all the details, and judge the entire ministry of a church and its officers based on that one thing. That’s hubris…and suggests you aren’t in touch with your own sinfulness.

    I’ve seen people ask why Jordan gets to stay at TVC…well, because like me and everyone else in every church everywhere, he is a sinner saved by grace and, though he needs extensive help, is still a brother. I see no intention to turn their back on Karen in that process, only her disinterest in it. That’s her right, of course. I don’t fault her for that.

  32. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    @ pcapastor:
    I have read nothing of theirs that made her look bad…only that she had no interest in talking with them. I feel her taking shots at them and, in her current state, I can understand. I feel for her and wish her well. I don’t think poorly of her for being upset. I wish she wasn’t so quick to see villainy where I believe there to be none…however, she is the recent victim of some terrible stuff and already feeling duped and mistreated, so I can see how those feelings might carry over into other situations. After my divorce, it took me years to trust again and it’s still tempting to bring pain from a past relationship into my 2nd marriage. Those hurts affect many things beyond marriage. I pray she finds what she’s looking for.
    As for additional information, TVC is not allowed to speak publicly about the private lives of members. They can speak about things within the body (such as an email to members) but not to the press or bloggers. I respect that. If they would rather look bad to a handful of people than betray what is promised in their covenant, I respect that…though it must certainly be tempting to just throw everything out there.
    As for the request to withdraw, I think it’s a matter of what both parties promised to do. Had she met with them at the point she decided to decline, I don’t think this would be an issue. I think perhaps they feel trapped by their own commitment to the covenant to do what they said they would. Since it takes two coming together in agreement to MAKE a covenant, it takes two to end it. Instead, she’s just said she’s done…which is not how it works, nor what she agreed to. But I’d like to see them let it go for their own sake and hers. But that’s not my call.

    Fair enough. I respect your opinion. You seem to be a reasonable and soft-hearted brother. Do keep in mind, though, that where you believe there to be no “villainy” on the part of the TVC leaders, that you weren’t present during any of their meetings/phone calls etc. with Karen. You have your reasons for choosing to believe their account of things. Reading Karen’s response to their 8-page letter to TVC’s membership, I am choosing to believe her account.

    (Also, I don’t see her accusing them of “villainy,” but I take your point. I hear her accusing them of overstepping their bounds, manipulating the truth, using their authority to bully rather than serve, failing to take the depths of Jordan’s wickedness seriously, failing to adequately protect the children of the church, etc. Maybe all of that put together equals her accusing them of villainy, but I’ll leave that to you to judge.)

    My perspective (which I recognize is as subjective as anyone else’s), as a long-time pastor in a conservative Presbyterian denomination, is that the leaders of TVC have a warped and unbiblical understanding of church authority. That doesn’t make them bad men, but it does (in my judgment) make them wrong, and participating in a system that cannot help but do damage, no matter how well intended they may be. There are reasons why (in our country anyway) a person, no matter how loving and well-intentioned, can’t just build a house for his family to live in, without it being inspected and deemed safe first. TVC built a method of church government (invented out of whole cloth fairly recently by 9Marks, but that is another story) that is unbiblical and unsafe. All the love in the world can’t keep men from crashing through the termite-infested floorboards onto the heads of women and children underneath. And the stories of the wreckage are multiplying from those who are finding their voice.

    Finally, I very much appreciate you saying, “But I’d like to see them let it go for their own sake and hers. But that’s not my call.” I think TVC would be in better hands if you were one of the pastors there. The longer they hold on their “rightness,” the stupider and more stubborn and arrogant they are looking. And worse, the more it looks like they are believing deep down inside that their standing before God depends upon their “rightness,” rather than being done with all that crap, and resting in the rightness of Jesus alone. Which, if they were truly resting in, they would, like you hope they will do, let it go.

  33. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    @ pcapastor:
    I have read nothing of theirs that made her look bad…only that she had no interest in talking with them. I feel her taking shots at them and, in her current state, I can understand. I feel for her and wish her well. I don’t think poorly of her for being upset. I wish she wasn’t so quick to see villainy where I believe there to be none…however, she is the recent victim of some terrible stuff and already feeling duped and mistreated, so I can see how those feelings might carry over into other situations. After my divorce, it took me years to trust again and it’s still tempting to bring pain from a past relationship into my 2nd marriage. Those hurts affect many things beyond marriage. I pray she finds what she’s looking for.
    As for additional information, TVC is not allowed to speak publicly about the private lives of members. They can speak about things within the body (such as an email to members) but not to the press or bloggers. I respect that. If they would rather look bad to a handful of people than betray what is promised in their covenant, I respect that…though it must certainly be tempting to just throw everything out there.
    As for the request to withdraw, I think it’s a matter of what both parties promised to do. Had she met with them at the point she decided to decline, I don’t think this would be an issue. I think perhaps they feel trapped by their own commitment to the covenant to do what they said they would. Since it takes two coming together in agreement to MAKE a covenant, it takes two to end it. Instead, she’s just said she’s done…which is not how it works, nor what she agreed to. But I’d like to see them let it go for their own sake and hers. But that’s not my call.

    [Woops! This is a re-post, as my first attempt got put into moderation, probably for my use of a different word for “nonsense.” Ha ha.]

    Fair enough. I respect your opinion. You seem to be a reasonable and soft-hearted brother. Do keep in mind, though, that where you believe there to be no “villainy” on the part of the TVC leaders, that you weren’t present during any of their meetings/phone calls etc. with Karen. You have your reasons for choosing to believe their account of things. Reading Karen’s response to their 8-page letter to TVC’s membership, I am choosing to believe her account.

    (Also, I don’t see her accusing them of “villainy,” but I take your point. I hear her accusing them of overstepping their bounds, manipulating the truth, using their authority to bully rather than serve, failing to take the depths of Jordan’s wickedness seriously, failing to adequately protect the children of the church, etc. Maybe all of that put together equals her accusing them of villainy, but I’ll leave that to you to judge.)

    My perspective (which I recognize is as subjective as anyone else’s), as a long-time pastor in a conservative Presbyterian denomination, is that the leaders of TVC have a warped and unbiblical understanding of church authority. That doesn’t make them bad men, but it does (in my judgment) make them wrong, and participating in a system that cannot help but do damage, no matter how well intended they may be. There are reasons why (in our country anyway) a person, no matter how loving and well-intentioned, can’t just build a house for his family to live in, without it being inspected and deemed safe first. TVC built a method of church government (invented out of whole cloth fairly recently by 9Marks, but that is another story) that is unbiblical and unsafe. All the love in the world can’t keep men from crashing through the termite-infested floorboards onto the heads of women and children underneath. And the stories of the wreckage are multiplying from those who are finding their voice.

    Finally, I very much appreciate you saying, “But I’d like to see them let it go for their own sake and hers. But that’s not my call.” I think TVC would be in better hands if you were one of the pastors there. The longer they hold on to their “rightness,” the stupider and more stubborn and arrogant they are looking. And worse, the more it looks like they are believing deep down inside that their standing before God depends upon their “rightness,” rather than being done with all that nonsense and resting in the rightness of Jesus alone. Which, if they were truly resting in, they would, like you hope they will do, let it go.

  34. @ pcapastor:

    I respect your opinion, even if we see it differently. And I appreciate wholeheartedly the way you said it. For me, it really falls into an area of who I’ve had the opportunity to watch as they work out their salvation. It isn’t that I am in any way accusing Karen of being dishonest. Only that someone I do not know (personally or in any spiritual sense) is describing men I do know (somewhat personally and spiritually through watching them closely and sorting through teaching for falsity–as we all should) in a way that does not compute. I’d certainly, for everyone’s sake, choose to believe this is all a matter of poor communication on both sides and not one side or the other seeking to demonize. That said, if I saw a pattern that repeatedly refutes what I have come to know, I would be forced to reconsider. Time will tell, I suppose.

    I don’t think they are failing to take Jordan’s wickedness seriously, btw. They just don’t see any man being beyond the hope of a gracious God. Jordan is no more depraved than you or I. It has just come out of him in a way we find more repulsive than others. I know them to be very cautious men, though forgiving they may be. Jordan must check in every time he attends, must be escorted while on the premises and isn’t permitted in areas where children gather. That suggests they take the threat he imposes to be a serious thing indeed…just not one that should deny him a chance at redemption. Forgiveness in no way applies “getting off lightly” for his contribution to evil which, by my count, includes sex trafficking, child pornography and whatever abuse the children in such material suffered. Grace and the love of your community in no way means escape from consequences. But those consequences are for other authorities…as well as one ultimate authority when that time comes.

  35. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    @ pcapastor:
    I respect your opinion, even if we see it differently. And I appreciate wholeheartedly the way you said it. For me, it really falls into an area of who I’ve had the opportunity to watch as they work out their salvation. It isn’t that I am in any way accusing Karen of being dishonest. Only that someone I do not know (personally or in any spiritual sense) is describing men I do know (somewhat personally and spiritually through watching them closely and sorting through teaching for falsity–as we all should) in a way that does not compute. I’d certainly, for everyone’s sake, choose to believe this is all a matter of poor communication on both sides and not one side or the other seeking to demonize. That said, if I saw a pattern that repeatedly refutes what I have come to know, I would be forced to reconsider. Time will tell, I suppose.
    I don’t think they are failing to take Jordan’s wickedness seriously, btw. They just don’t see any man being beyond the hope of a gracious God. Jordan is no more depraved than you or I. It has just come out of him in a way we find more repulsive than others. I know them to be very cautious men, though forgiving they may be. Jordan must check in every time he attends, must be escorted while on the premises and isn’t permitted in areas where children gather. That suggests they take the threat he imposes to be a serious thing indeed…just not one that should deny him a chance at redemption. Forgiveness in no way applies “getting off lightly” for his contribution to evil which, by my count, includes sex trafficking, child pornography and whatever abuse the children in such material suffered. Grace and the love of your community in no way means escape from consequences. But those consequences are for other authorities…as well as one ultimate authority when that time comes.

    Thank you, Texas Truthsayer. Good words. I agree with all of that completely.

    Meanwhile, on another thread here at TWW, I have learned of this news, and I am pretty stunned, in a good way:

    http://matthewpaulturner.com/2015/05/28/matt-chandler-the-village-church-offer-apology-to-karen-hinkley/

    I don’t have the same starting point as the TVC pastors, and I might have said things a bit differently here or there, but this is incredibly encouraging to me.

    (At the same time, I want to remove myself from the equation, because whether or not I am encouraged matters next to nothing. Whether Karen herself is encouraged is what matters.)

    Anyway, thanks for the respectful interaction, Texas Truthsayer.

  36. Jm wrote:

    I made a comment a second ago about his inappropriate it would be to compare voluntary church covenants to slave labor and this is the quote/comment i was referring to.

    It is binding her and removing her agency to determine how she will live her life. How would you define slavery? ISTM that the seizure of another human’s personal agency is the essence of slavery. That triggers a lot of “Complementarians” and makes them huffy. They need to think about what they are really saying.

  37. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    You say I do not know who you know, but I have only your word for that. That’s fine. Your use of a term like Gospel Glitterati (a term I had not heard before visiting this site) suggests a smugness that I doubt would be breached by logic or continued argument.

    How do the words “Rebellious Woman” sound to you? Or the idea of a woman who “wears her husband out” sound to you? That last one is from Matt Chandler himself. I use the term Gospel Glitterati because it is very descriptive of a number of things which are true about these men and their followers.

    There is an obsessive desire to imitate their idols. As in David Platt and Matt Chandler’s imitation of C.J. Mahaney’s style. There is a rigid loyalty to their idols. There is an unquestioning acceptance of anything that flows from them, and a corresponding vigorous defensiveness if anyone dares to touch God’s anointed. They like to make fun of the Word of Faith preachers, but it is the same phenomenon.

    The “conferences” which are what we used to call Friday afternoon pep rallies. Probably don’t have those anymore. But the point was rallying the spirits of the troops and strengthening the loyalty of the followers.

    These men are treated like kings. And yes, I do know how they are treated.

    So, exactly how does this picture differ from the people who slavishly follow the every move of the Kardashians or whoever is on the cover of People this week?

    If you look like a Glitterati, you just might be a Glitterati.

  38. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    So, we just inspect your life, find the worst moment…or at least the one most often misunderstood, and sit in judgement on you? Or does it take more than one instance? Because, I’ve got three years of constant gracious behavior on which to form my opinion. You’ve got one situation. If you don’t see the problem with that, I don’t know what else to say.

    And you wonder why The Church has NO CREDIBILITY with unbelievers. You want a special exemption for Jordan Root.

    These are FELONY crimes, pal. Felonies. Why didn’t Jordan Root confess to his crimes against children? Their names? What he did? Why wasn’t he forthcoming with where he hid the evidence? And yes, people can confess to crimes they committed and be charged. Why didn’t he man-up and do just that?

  39. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    But why let facts get in the way now?

    I’m happy to talk facts and logic and Bible text all day long. You should look into their Trinitarian teaching. You can look in Grudem’s Systematic Theology, or pretty much anyplace on Desiring God or CBMW. It is pervasive. It is like air that we breathe but do not take notice of. I have no doubt that they have not mentioned Eternal Subordination of the Son. They don’t talk about a lot of things that they believe. Do some research and ask some questions. Ask them if they believe that the Eternal Son is subordinate to the Eternal Father. I don’t mean the kenosis or the incarnation, either. I mean the immanent Trinity, though they say they are only talking about the economic Trinity. How does a Person in the Godhead play a Role? What does that even mean?

  40. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Michaela wrote:
    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    I’ve seen them. Did you read what I wrote before? Chandler drives a ’08 Honda and gives his book royalties to the church. He also tithes from his salary AND gives an extra percentage to missions/church plants outside of the TVC supported ones. There is no THERE there.
    Who cares? He’s still a bully and a failure.
    I don’t see many other megachurch pastors with that sort of humility…nor any that consistently tell people in the audience to stop passing good churches in their own communities to drive to TVC. The man is constantly trying to shrink the church so the growth spreads into other churches.
    Oh he’s so *humble* that he takes out this dear woman [Karen] before 6000 people when she’s been through enough. They insinuate themselves into her life and personal business, ordering everything from her finances on through.

    All I have ever seen is humility and he is not the HEAD pastor, he is the teaching pastor and, thus, is subject to the board of elders…not making decisions on him own or even leading the charge. He’s only the most visible because he’s an outstanding proclaimer of the Gospel.

    So far I’ve seen you dismiss FELONY crimes, that are felonies under federal and state law, against children. If you are willing to do that, of course you are willing to dismiss Matt Chandler’s and the other pastors/elders’ egregious treatment of Karen. Those men aren’t fit to serve in any church and should step down. They are arrogant.

  41. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Nor do I suspect that TVC blames her…they wanted only to sit with her and go through it. Why? Because you don’t endure the trauma that Karen did–finding out your marriage was a sham and your husband a liar–and immediately start thinking clearly.

    There is an embedded assumption that needs to be challenged. She is the Weak and Emotional Woman who cannot function without a man to lead her. Jordan is not available, therefore, the ELDERS will lead her. There is no place in the Bible that says that a female must be led by a man except in Grudemations and 1 Piper. The ELDERS betrayed what they care about, namely controlling an independent woman who decided they did not have Spiritual Authority over her life. She wounded their Pride because she dared to listen to the Holy Spirit *and* the people she trusted whose interests were not divided.

    Exactly what is loving about what they have done? Where is the text in Scripture that authorizes them to bully her like this? If we are going to be Biblical, then let’s be Biblical using the, you know, Bible.

  42. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    As for my daughters, I have two. And my hope would be that their marriage would never be subject to the sort of deception and hurt that Karen has endured. I would still, however, even in the midst of anger toward the offender, caution them to take some time to let their emotions cool down before making a decision such as annulment or divorce. Then, after wise counsel from credible sources, I’d back their play.

    For starters, Karen did take some time, and she did speak with trusted counselors. She did not trust the ELDERS, and it from all appearances she was wise not to do so. The idea that she is incapable of listening to other voices who have the same indwelling Holy Spirit as these ELDERS do is simply false. The ELDERS do *not* have any Spiritual Authority whatsoever over anyone. Repeat anyone. They are usurpers of the rule of Christ over Karen, and they are usurpers of the place of the Holy Spirit as the one to guide her. The ELDERS are not God, though they have certainly tried to impersonate him.

    I do not think it is wise for you to continue to play the Weak Emotional Female Who Can’t Think card. No one outside the bubble believes that is what we are really talking about. It is a red herring designed to, after the fact, justify reprehensible behavior by ELDERS who claim so speak for Jesus but which bear the marks of the spirit of anti-Christ.

  43. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Are they perfect? No. Could some of the wording have been better in some emails coming from the Dallas campus? Sure. It’s called being human. Even our BEST is filthy rags, remember? So we try our best. I hate that Karen feels let down

    No, you cannot go there with me. I don’t play the “Well, everyone sins” game, nor do I play the “Well, nobody’s perfect” game nor do I play the “Sure, they could have done some things better” game. Those are all red herrings. Every last one of them. And I have heard them so many times I can vomit thinking about the things that are excused obliquely by deploying them.

  44. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    knowing these men, there is no conspiracy or power grab. There is only an elder body feeling their way through a difficult situation as best than can. I’ve watched them sacrifice for the body repeatedly and humble themselves to authority. Maybe they have it wrong. It’s not my place to say since they can’t discuss all the private details and, as details go, we only have one woman’s story. However, wrong or right, I believe their ultimate goal is love and grace. I have yet to see anyone grasping for money or power in that community…and those are things I am constantly on guard for.

    I could have written this paragraph from memory. There is a power grab of her life and her personal agency and there is, in fact, a group of men who have bullied her for the sole purpose of interposing themselves between Karen and the Holy Spirit.

    How do you know their ultimate goal is love and grace? You just said we are just filthy rags. Does that not apply to the ELDERS? To what authorities have these men humbled themselves? To SIM? To the state of Texas? To whom have they humbled themselves? The PR statement in Christianity Today is disgraceful, and resembles the Driscoll strategy of the modified limited hangout followed by a “we should have been more patient and gentle.” That is a veiled accusation wrapped in pious language that fools no one except those who want to be fooled. Chandler went to Christianity Today who, not unexpectedly, had nothing to say about this very big story. Yet there isn’t a conspiracy? There isn’t a coverup? Go ask for a copy of the publisher’s agreement between Chandler and Crossway. Then we can talk about whether there is a cozy conspiracy and a PR strategy with select media.

    “Can’t discuss private details.” “One woman’s story.” Do you have any idea at all that you are delivering talking points? Do you have any idea how degrading that is to dismiss Karen as “one woman.” You have apparently drunk deeply of the Kool-aid such that you would stoop to that.

    I doubt that you are on guard for what you should be on guard for. I pray that the Lord will protect your precious daughters.

  45. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    My only concern is the character of those being slandered.

    But you have no problem with the slander that the ELDERS perpetrated against Karen and continue to perpetrate against her. Please try not to play the man-victim card so obviously while deflecting what these “men of God” are doing in Jesus’ name. That should make them and you tremble.

  46. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I don’t see many other megachurch pastors with that sort of humility…

    Calling people who question him “narcissistic zeroes” in a public rage is hardly humble, IMHO.

  47. pcapastor wrote:

    My perspective (which I recognize is as subjective as anyone else’s), as a long-time pastor in a conservative Presbyterian denomination, is that the leaders of TVC have a warped and unbiblical understanding of church authority. That doesn’t make them bad men, but it does (in my judgment) make them wrong, and participating in a system that cannot help but do damage, no matter how well intended they may be.

    Honestly, I find the past few posts from you very discouraging. If what these men have done to an innocent woman is not “bad men” behaving badly like bullies while claiming to act in the name of Jesus and loving her like Jesus, then I do not know what a “bad man” looks like. We are talking mere degrees, not kind. Professed good intentions do not mitigate real harm in any way.

    Until your co-clergy get this, things will continue as they are. It is very sad when some men bully a woman who is innocent, and other men will not forthrightly call it what it is without speaking of their supposed intentions which their actions have totally denied.

  48. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I would still, however, even in the midst of anger toward the offender, caution them to take some time to let their emotions cool down before making a decision such as annulment or divorce.

    She waited two months.

    She was, as the documentation shows, expected to submit herself and her finances to the elders. They were treating her like a child.

  49. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    My only concern is the character of those being slandered. While I do NOT know the pastors on the Dallas campus, nothing I’ve known of Chandler or the Flower Mound pastors and elders would lead me to suspect anything but grace as their intent. So, when people start saying “it’s all about control” or “it’s all about the money” when I have experience with such places and purposely and prayerfully chose TVC because they do neither of those things, I can’t just sit back and shrug.

    What you describe is not slander.

  50. Bridget wrote:

    They were treating her like a child.

    That’s because their theology teaches that females require a man to lead them, whether the female is an adult or not. Horses need to be led. Children need to be led. An adult female with the Holy Spirit living in her does not need a sinful man to lead her. The Shepherd will lead his sheep. Hirelings act like hirelings.

  51. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    :
    So, even if I thought Chandler, et al. to be inexcusably wrong in this instance, it would not erase the years of humility, compassion and open-handedness with money and resources that I have witnessed over the last 3 years. And I think it’s unfair to take a situation that you are not personally involved in, assume you know all the details, and judge the entire ministry of a church and its officers based on that one thing. That’s hubris…and suggests you aren’t in touch with your own sinfulness.

    I’ve seen people ask why Jordan gets to stay at TVC…well, because like me and everyone else in every church everywhere, he is a sinner saved by grace and, though he needs extensive help, is still a brother. I see no intention to turn their back on Karen in that process, only her disinterest in it. That’s her right, of course. I don’t fault her for that.

    Matt Chandler & Company abuse this dear saint Karen (who has been through how much), including being such bullies who should step down from serving as pastors/elders, after what they did to her and did it before 6000 people, and you come back with another defense? You are a piece of work.

    I am involved because Karen is my sister in Christ.

    Jordan Root has committed crimes, not just garden variety sins. There is an epidemic of child sexual abuse in the conservative evangelical church (source: Church Mutual, the largest insurer of churches; child sexual abuse is the No. 1 reason that churches get sued every year – cite: Richard Hammer, attorney, Church Law & Tax).

    You have no idea how many other people that these pastors/elders harmed. They were even willing to threaten the international ministry that Karen served with.
    They are bullies because NO humble man of God would EVER do that. Ever.

  52. Gram3 wrote:

    pcapastor wrote:
    My perspective (which I recognize is as subjective as anyone else’s), as a long-time pastor in a conservative Presbyterian denomination, is that the leaders of TVC have a warped and unbiblical understanding of church authority. That doesn’t make them bad men, but it does (in my judgment) make them wrong, and participating in a system that cannot help but do damage, no matter how well intended they may be.
    Honestly, I find the past few posts from you very discouraging. If what these men have done to an innocent woman is not “bad men” behaving badly like bullies while claiming to act in the name of Jesus and loving her like Jesus, then I do not know what a “bad man” looks like. We are talking mere degrees, not kind. Professed good intentions do not mitigate real harm in any way.
    Until your co-clergy get this, things will continue as they are. It is very sad when some men bully a woman who is innocent, and other men will not forthrightly call it what it is without speaking of their supposed intentions which their actions have totally denied.

    First of all, I wish there were a lot more godly and wise Christians like you. I say that having been reading your comments pretty consistently for several years now. So if you take issue with my comments I take that pretty seriously.

    My point in that part was simply to say that having a bad ecclesiology does not in and of itself make one a bad man. That is all I was trying to say by that. OTHER parts of what they have done could and would make a person a “bad man,” though, without question. Hope that makes sense.

    But now, by their OWN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT (one trusts), they are beginning to acknowledge their very real badness. So, if they are being genuine, they should take no issue with you or I calling what they did to bully her, “bad men acting badly.”

    As Martin Luther said, Jesus did not die for paper mache sinners, but for real sinners. So there is hope in their beginning to acknowledge their real and definite sin. Unless they want to remain paper mache sinners. And then there is no present hope for them. But (unlike, say, CJ Mahaney or Mark Driscoll or Doug Wilson or Doug Phillips or Bill Gothard), that is not the sense I got from Matt Chandler’s comments today.

    (One perhaps minor, but certainly myopic, peculiar, and downright offensive point: I actually do not consider Matt Chandler or the pastors at TVC to be “co-clergy” with me. I take no issue with their own and others [including our government] viewing them as such, but I don’t. They have never been truly ordained to the gospel ministry as I understand the Scriptures to require. Were any of them to apply to become ministers in my denomination they would have to go through the whole process from start to finish [which typically takes four years post-college at a minimum] — they would not be seen as fellow ministers seeking to transfer their credentials into our denomination [as, say, an Anglican or Methodist or Lutheran would be — all of which I have seen happen, by the way], they would be seen as brand new applicants for ordination.)

    But back to what I see as the main point presently. Which is that how KAREN understands, receives, and processes their apology to her matters in every way; and what I think of it matters for next-to-nothing.

    I have respect for every single thing she has done up to this point. I do not have any respect for how the TVC pastors and elders have treated her up to this point, But today’s beginning of an apology is a start. I feel pretty confident that the same wise Christian friends and counselors that have been her help and support throughout all of this will help her to be able to discern one way or another the genuineness of TVC’s beginning of an apology, and its subsequent fruits. If all they are doing is mere “damage control” and “spin” and “CYAing,” then she and her godly brothers and sisters will suss that out pretty easily, I would think.

  53. dee wrote:

    Why does the church think he has one computer? Better yet, why do they think he hasn’t purchased one since he returned?

    Dee, this is what jumped out at me, too. They are acting as if no one on earth could have 2 computers…..

  54. Gram3 wrote:

    About the computer without evidence. Most countries have internet cafes or whatever they’re called now. So the clean computer is not necessarily surprising. If I were engaging in those tastes, I think I would look for a way to access the garbage without leaving traces on my computer. If it was a ministry computer, then it is even more likely that he would not have used it for porn.

    Precisely.
    Though I am inclined to doubt that they looked at HIS computer. Maybe a Walmart ‘special’ with nothing on it because he bought it on sale for the purpose. Of course that would mean that they actually care enough to look at anything…..

  55. Gram3 wrote:

    Honestly, I find the past few posts from you very discouraging. If what these men have done to an innocent woman is not “bad men” behaving badly like bullies while claiming to act in the name of Jesus and loving her like Jesus, then I do not know what a “bad man” looks like. We are talking mere degrees, not kind. Professed good intentions do not mitigate real harm in any way.

    There is a lot of separating the person from the behavior that goes on in evangelicalism. Or claiming it is just a difference in ecclesiology or something like that.

    I am not talking about a one off situation. I am talking about situations where we find people actually DOING what they teach. Walking their talk. This is one of those situations. Chandler and the leaders at TVC were being true to what they believe and teach and that is BAD. What they believe and teach is “BAD”. It is a LIE. That makes them “bad men” unless they have been drugged and hypnotized like stepford pastors and had no choice.

    The problem we really have is people do not want to believe this is what they really believe and teach. How they responded to Karen is WHO THEY ARE. What part of that do people not get? That is probably the most frustrating part of all of this for me.

    The lesson from this should be so simple. Was their behavior in this situation like Jesus or not. And if we do not know Him then perhaps that is what is keeping people from seeing it.

    This is not something to forgive (what are bloggers forgiving a 501c3 about?) and sweep under the rug. This is something that should take us right back to Jesus Christ to look deeply at WHO HE really is. This is something to, using bible language, rebuke and warn about because it presents a lie about our Savior.

  56. @ pcapastor:
    I just saw this. Thank you for explaining your point. The truth is that this meltdown has made me disgusted beyond words, and I apologize sincerely for placing that on you, which appears to be what I did. By co-clergy I was referring to those in Baptist circles who do see a divide between clergy and laity. And, as you know, that is not a Baptist point of view.

    IMO, what you pointed out about not going through the ordination process and the examinations that go along with that is a big part of this. These guys have either set up independent shop or they have come up through what amounts to a production line. There is not the deep tradition of leadership of churches and what that might entail. So these guys have a very superficial picture of that, and it gets reduced to “I lead and therefore they must follow.” That has not been my experience at the church level in the PCA with one exception. And that was a guy with an entirely different set of issues. People are people.

    Anyway, thanks again for the clarification. I was misunderstanding you, and again apologize.

  57. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:

    It is always wise to keep your eye on people who want to rule over you. In the case of the Reconstructionists and their heirs, I don’t think they will be a big problem for one very practical reason. If everyone in the group wants to be the king, sooner or later everyone will be trying to kill off everyone else in the group. That’s difficult to believe unless you know some of these people and have observed them.

    “Not difficult. I grew up in King’s Landing.”
    — Maester Aemon Targeryn

    House Lannister sends their regards…

    I have been thinking Game of Thrones for some time now, just reading about TVC.

  58. James the Mad wrote:

    Each of the major browser has a method for browsing without leaving anything behind:

    And even this Cranky Old Lady knows about them. They are indispensable when using a computer at the public library, for example.

  59. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Jordan is no more depraved than you or I.

    Jordan is pedophile. That means he is a monster. That is all I need to know about a creature who preys on innocent children in pursuit of his own perverse sexual desires.
    This is why the vast majority of the rest of the occupants of planet Earth are sickened & disgusted that anyone–whether claiming to be Christian or no, are NOT as “depraved” as Jordan. We are all sinners, yes. But we have somehow restrained ourselves from raping small children. And we have done so without so much as having to work at it.
    Even among the heathen such matters are known to be evil. You might want to check your Bible. St Paul, among others, has no problem in condemning perversion. And Our One Lord & Saviour has already told us, that those who would cause even one child to stumble would be better if sunk to the bottom of the sea. (That is also in your Bible. It makes for excellent reading—when you have a spare moment from defending your “pastor”).

  60. Michaela wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    So, we just inspect your life, find the worst moment…or at least the one most often misunderstood, and sit in judgement on you? Or does it take more than one instance? Because, I’ve got three years of constant gracious behavior on which to form my opinion. You’ve got one situation. If you don’t see the problem with that, I don’t know what else to say.

    And you wonder why The Church has NO CREDIBILITY with unbelievers. You want a special exemption for Jordan Root.

    These are FELONY crimes, pal. Felonies. Why didn’t Jordan Root confess to his crimes against children? Their names? What he did? Why wasn’t he forthcoming with where he hid the evidence? And yes, people can confess to crimes they committed and be charged. Why didn’t he man-up and do just that?

    Jordan Root probably didn’t man-up because child abusers aren’t really very much man at all…..

  61. Gram3 wrote:

    I pray that the Lord will protect your precious daughters.

    As do I. Certainly their church leaders won’t, & it sadly appears that their father is too entranced by said leaders to see the danger he is leading them into.

  62. zooey111 wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:

    I pray that the Lord will protect your precious daughters.

    As do I. Certainly their church leaders won’t, & it sadly appears that their father is too entranced by said leaders to see the danger he is leading them into.

    Michaela wrote:

    Jordan Root has committed crimes, not just garden variety sins. There is an epidemic of child sexual abuse in the conservative evangelical church (source: Church Mutual, the largest insurer of churches; child sexual abuse is the No. 1 reason that churches get sued every year – cite: Richard Hammer, attorney, Church Law & Tax).
    You have no idea how many other people that these pastors/elders harmed. They were even willing to threaten the international ministry that Karen served with.
    They are bullies because NO humble man of God would EVER do that. Ever.

    Amen, Sister! And again, amen.

  63. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    That’s hubris

    Yes, perfect! What better word to describe a bunch of really, really young men who deign to call themselves elders, with authority to lord it over others, in opposition to Jesus’s own words. And, lest Texas TruthSlayer should fail to get my meaning, I am speaking of Matt “Narcissistic Zero” Chandler and his lieutenants.

  64. I have to rebuke you. I have read some of the stuff you have written and you have hatred and bitterness in your heart. You need to go talk to your pastor and get an education. The church has one mission on this earth, to bring souls to Jesus. The State of Texas needs to deal with Jordan appropriately according to the law. We are a nation of laws not men. But you are rebuked in the name of Jesus Christ go confess your hatred, bigotry and bitterness to your pastor. Unfortunately, ignorance and stupidity are not sins.

    MOD: I’m going to let this one through as an example of your thinking. But unless you bring something more to the discussion this will be your one and only comment here.

    Everyone else. DO NOT start a debate with this one.

  65. As a long-time advocacy writer to expose the collusion with abuse, especially in fundamentalist circles, this story reminds me of the secular song about poverty, “Another Day in Paradise.”

    SIM gave a very unusual response for mission boards–a sharp contrast to what my husband and I received when we stood for the removal of a 25-year Southern Baptist veteran/colleague of ours as we served under the Foreign Mission Board (now International Mission Board) of the Southern Baptist Convention. Every attempt possible was made to silence us at every level of the organization!! In fact, we finally realized we could no longer work for them; and the only way to keep our voices was to come back to the States and find a new ways of ministry. Writing and responding with a personal letter to every single reader who has contacted me since 1993 has brought as much fulfillment as all that we were able to accomplish in ten years, serving in Africa. What resulted from that was a ministry that brought so many wonderful people our way! Spirituality and religion are two different things entirely, I can tell you now. Yet the sorrow never goes away as we witness story after story like this.
    I like to think things are getting better. I know the opportunities for education has grown immensely. NOBODY has an excuses for being naïve or exercising the patriarchal responses TVC did–not in this day! What I fear, however, is that far too many people are doing the right thing out of fear, rather than conviction. The courts have had to teach the lessons, and I’m glad they have. Yet I still wonder how many hearts have truly been changed. How many people think that the best way to “protect” institutions is to take the same response that we are seeing in colleges and universities across our nation today?

  66. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Jordan is no more depraved than you or I.

    False. Even God in the Bible (and Jesus in the NT) recognizes that some sins are worse than others.

    Any sin can send a person to hell, but to argue that all sins are basically the same (as you seem to feel), and hence, all are “just as bad” as each other, is un-biblical.

    I do not, nor have I ever, molested kids, nor have I ever wanted to, so yes, Jordan is more depraved / deviant / evil than I am or ever will be.

  67. Gram3 wrote:

    She wounded their Pride because she dared to listen to the Holy Spirit *and* the people she trusted whose interests were not divided.

    This reminds me of something else that is at times discussed at A Cry For Justice blog (about domestic spousal abuse).

    The writers there frequently point out that many preachers try to take the “neutral” stance (they say they will take neither the husband’s side nor the wife’s side), or they take the “50/50” stand, which is, if a wife tells the pastor she is being abused by her spouse, the pastor will blame the wife 50% for it and her abusive spouse for the other 50%.

    As they explain at that blog (and I’ve seen this in literature about domestic abuse in general, too), either the “neutral” or “equal blame (50/50)” approach ends up favoring the abuser.

    I’m not sure if Jordan could be considered a spousal abuser pe se (since he was abusing children, and Karen suffered the fall out of that), but the church’s first attempt to deal with it all seemed to be the same approach – to be neutral or 50/50.

    What that does is actually favor the spouse who is in trouble (Jordan), not the innocent party.

    By trying to help Jordan (by insisting Karen stay with him etc and so on), they are in effect penalizing Karen, they were not helping her. (They explain this dynamic much better over at ACFJ blog.)

  68. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I would still, however, even in the midst of anger toward the offender, caution them to take some time to let their emotions cool down before making a decision such as annulment or divorce. Then, after wise counsel from credible sources, I’d back their play. My personal counsel would be to do what Karen did and opt for annulment.

    What you really should be doing is raising your daughters to think for themselves, not relying on father or church or preacher to do their thinking for them, or making their life choices for them.

    Ironically, by coaching your daughters to rely on other people’s approval or thinking rather than make their own choices, you are leaving them vulnerable to attracting abusive or using / controlling men or boys (when or if they start to date).

    I was raised in a context just like that. I was not encourage to make choices for myself, think for myself (not at life choices anyway), nor to have boundaries. So I kept attracting abusive people, people who exploited me, etc.

  69. @ Texas Truthsayer:

    And PS, why on earth would you even consider asking your daughter to “cool down” before dumping a guy who is a self professing pedophile???

    Divorce is not the unpardonable sin.

  70. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I don’t see many other megachurch pastors with that sort of humility…

    At the end of the day, Chandler supports gender comp, and the brand of gender comp supported at the church he helms is preachy keen with pressuring a woman to stay married to a pedo. This speaks very poorly of his character and the rest of the people on staff there.

  71. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I have read nothing of theirs that made her look bad…

    One or two of the preachers kept contacting her even after she plainly told him/them in one email she wanted nothing to do with them, did not want to hear from them.

  72. Daisy wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Jordan is no more depraved than you or I.

    False. Even God in the Bible (and Jesus in the NT) recognizes that some sins are worse than others.

    Any sin can send a person to hell, but to argue that all sins are basically the same (as you seem to feel), and hence, all are “just as bad” as each other, is un-biblical.

    I do not, nor have I ever, molested kids, nor have I ever wanted to, so yes, Jordan is more depraved / deviant / evil than I am or ever will be.

    Exactly, Daisy! Christian radio show host Janet Mefferd said same.
    A vile ‘Christian pastor’ said that every man thinks of sexually violating others and to ask her husband.

    Mr. Mefferd’s reply: “To my husband’s credit, he decided to directly and honestly respond to the man. Here’s what he wrote: “No, I never had a thought that evil cross my mind. If you do, I’d suggest professional help.”
    http://janetmefferd.com/2015/05/predators-dangerous-deviants-j-d-hall/

  73. @ Michaela:

    I wish these guys would answer a hypothetical.

    Suppose your daughter (if you had one) was on a plane that crashed, and the pilot doesn’t make it, and the passengers of the plane end up on a desert island.

    Suppose that the two other passengers on the plane with your daughter are a 1. pedophile or 2. a con artist.

    If you got to choose which guy, #1 or #2, survives to live with your daughter on an desert island for a year, which one would you pick or prefer to survive, and why?

    Everything else is equal.

    The worse thing that man 2, the con artist will do, is try to talk your daughter out of her ten dollars in cash in her purse, or talk her out of any coconuts she finds on the island.

    Where as guy #1, the pedo, will sexually assault your kid for 12 months.

    Which man do you choose to spend a year with your daughter on the island, you guys who say, “but we’re all sinners!! We’re all equally depraved and in need of grace.”

  74. Pingback: An Open Letter to my Former Senior Pastor Rod Stafford (Fairfax Community Church) | Wondering Eagle UNITED STATES