EChurch@Wartburg – 5.24.15

Welcome to Our Gathering of EChurch@Wartburg

Taken by Deb

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

American Cemetery-Normandy

(Taken by Deb)

Here Is Our Order of Worship

Psalm 118 (NIV)

1 Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good;
    his love endures forever.

2 Let Israel say:
    “His love endures forever.”
3 Let the house of Aaron say:
    “His love endures forever.”
4 Let those who fear the Lord say:
    “His love endures forever.”

5 When hard pressed, I cried to the Lord;
    he brought me into a spacious place.
6 The Lord is with me; I will not be afraid.
    What can mere mortals do to me?

7 The Lord is with me; he is my helper.
    I look in triumph on my enemies.

8 It is better to take refuge in the Lord
    than to trust in humans.
9 It is better to take refuge in the Lord
    than to trust in princes.

15.Shouts of joy and victory
    resound in the tents of the righteous:
“The Lord’s right hand has done mighty things!
16     The Lord’s right hand is lifted high;
    the Lord’s right hand has done mighty things!”

17 I will not die but live,
    and will proclaim what the Lord has done.
18 The Lord has chastened me severely,
    but he has not given me over to death.

19 Open for me the gates of the righteous;
    I will enter and give thanks to the Lord.
20 This is the gate of the Lord
    through which the righteous may enter.

21 I will give you thanks, for you answered me;
    you have become my salvation.

22 The stone the builders rejected
    has become the cornerstone;
23 the Lord has done this,
    and it is marvelous in our eyes.

24 The Lord has done it this very day;
    let us rejoice today and be glad.

25 Lord, save us!
    Lord, grant us success!

26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
    From the house of the Lord we bless you.
27 The Lord is God,
    and he has made his light shine on us.
With boughs in hand, join in the festal procession
    up to the horns of the altar.

28 You are my God, and I will praise you;
    you are my God, and I will exalt you.

29 Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good;
    his love endures forever.
Amen

Psalm 23 (KJV)

1 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures:
he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3 He restoreth my soul:
he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil: for thou art with me;
thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
 thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life:
and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.
Amen

Scripture Reading:  Luke 7:31-35 (NASB Bible Gateway)

“To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like?  They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.’  For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’  The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’  Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children.”

Matthew 6 – The Lord's Prayer (KJV)

9. Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.
Amen.

Benediction: Psalm 121

1 I lift up my eyes to the mountains—
    where does my help come from?
2 My help comes from the Lord,
    the Maker of heaven and earth.

3 He will not let your foot slip—
    he who watches over you will not slumber;
4 indeed, he who watches over Israel
    will neither slumber nor sleep.

5 The Lord watches over you—
    the Lord is your shade at your right hand;
6 the sun will not harm you by day,
    nor the moon by night.

7 The Lord will keep you from all harm—
    he will watch over your life;
8 the Lord will watch over your coming and going
    both now and forevermore.
Amen

Comments

EChurch@Wartburg – 5.24.15 — 28 Comments

  1. You know I’ve been reading this blog for a year now, and there’s still something I don’t quite get about it. I mean this sincerely and respectfully, and I’ll be as brief as I can. Almost every post seems to be about pastoral misuse and abuse within the church, but none of these many complaints would exist if people did not erringly submit themselves to an ungodly and un-Biblical authoritarian hierarchy. And allowing this hierarchy in teaching, preaching, comforting, having compassion on, giving, supporting, in worship teams, and even in program development, undermines the growth of the maturity of the believers, that is their growing in the knowledge and grace of Jesus Christ, to the point that they rely on their surrogate(s) to perform the godly functions that they should be gifted by God in doing themselves.

    Abusive pastors are that natural consequence of believers being led into a false concept of the church itself, and a false clergy/laity distinction. There is NO mediator between God and man but Jesus Christ – this should be your banner; and there is no growth or guidance besides that solely provided by the Holy Spirit; and there is no purpose for the Church other than to love one another. The church is not for evangelization; it is for serving itself within its community of believers. There is NO head of the church other than Jesus Christ Himself, and anyone who tells you differently needs to be guarded against. Every time I see a pastor who believes that he is Christ’s neck (the clearest way I’ve ever heard it put), or Christ’s sub-shepherd, or Christ’s divinely-appointed, authoritative, representative surrogate on earth, I always eventually see this lead to stunting of the congregation or gross persecution.

    “Church” is a word that is a (deliberate) mistranslation of the word for assembly (of the saints), or called-out ones, or congregation. The Church is not an institution, a tradition, a building, a worship program, or a chain of command. There need be no protocol or legal procedure to remove an elder, other than a prayerful inquiry, deliberation and decision by the whole constant congregation – the church body. The very first time we elevate anyone into a position of any other kind of human authority over ourselves, we willingly (if unknowingly) invite every form of apostasy, and its resultant misleading of the congregation, and ultimately the persecution and punishment of the innocent. But every time I see a criticism of the abuses of a modern church, I am always amazed that it is a topic of consideration: there is a wistfulness for something better, and an anger over abuses, within an organization of godly people that is not supposed to have that organization in the first place.

    God says that the whole world, that is pagans and everyone who is not even in the church will know that we are His disciples BY YOUR LOVE ONE FOR ANOTHER. This is the root of all corporate worship. This is the root of all counseling and teaching and admonition and compassion and giving. THIS is evangelism. If Christian churches can get together and actually love each other as Christ loves them, and know each other, and care for one another as they care for their own families, and forgive one another, then mentoring, discipleship and evangelization will automatically take place. The community will know us by our love one for another.

  2. “Almost every post seems to be about pastoral misuse and abuse within the church, but none of these many complaints would exist if people did not erringly submit themselves to an ungodly and un-Biblical authoritarian hierarchy.”-Flicker

    In all due respect, it’s pretty easy from the outside to say that you wouldn’t get suckered by an abusive church. I left a mega church (where a friend invited me) because it seemed off in so many ways. I decided to go to a smaller church, one that was Biblically-solid. I wanted to hear The Word taught, be with other believers and grow as a Christian. My wishes seemed pretty simple.

    The church pastors/elders talked a good talk about “expositional” preaching, etc. Getting back to the basics. All of the 9Marks/Mark Dever stuff.
    They seemed friendly. Loving. Warm. Lots of fun activities. A potluck lunch every Sunday after church. Lots of bright people from top schools (Ivy League schools) went to that church. So I signed on.

    And then, like a bad marriage or dating relationship, it slowly turned. New elders were brought in who were only friends of the senior pastor. The congregation had no say. Then came excommunications/shunnings of any members who dissented: the first being a long time friend of Pastor John MacArthur’s of Grace Community Church in Southern California. The man who was shunned was a godly doctor. Later the church secretary, a conservative married woman, left the church and refused to attend. People just disappeared as well. It was all so strange.

    When I asked other church members about the good doctor, they defended his excommunication/shunning. He was a good and godly man and I was grieved and heart sick.

    So what have I learned?
    *I will NEVER sign a membership covenant again. It’s about control and giving up all of your rights.
    *I will NEVER go to an independent church again, one that doesn’t have any checks and balances. (Several families didn’t join our church because they had relatives who warned them, “Do not join an independent church that has no accountability.”
    *I will see how friendly the church is to outsiders, and if they have any cliques.
    *I will check their website: their links, political-type values, etc.
    *I will never join a church again that endorses patriarchy and all of this Neo-Calvinism stuff.
    *I will not join a church again that practices excommunications/shunnings (I never knew about that).
    *I will check the child safety policies and see how well they are drafted.
    (Child abuse is the NO. 1 reason that church’s are sued every year according to
    Richard Hammer’s Church Law & Tax website.)
    *I won’t join a church where I don’t have a voice and others, including women, don’t either.

    I was excommunicated and shunned from my church of 8 years for discovering while doing research for a prosecutor that a new church member was a Megan’s List sex offender. The pastors/elders defended him and said he was ‘harmless’ and ‘coming off Megan’s List’. The pastors/elders put him in positions of leadership and trust. His supervising law enforcement agency called that ‘all lies’ and ‘total lies’.

    I had no idea of these crazy ideas that were infiltrating the nation’s seminaries and how destructive they would be to my life and the lives of those around me.

  3. @ Flicker:

    An outstanding commentary! It does seem that many of our posts involve problems with the pastorate. And with the growing authoritarianism in churches, it will get only worse.

  4. Melissa, thanks for your kind remark.

    Michaela, i’m not sure how on the outside I am. I’ve been a Christian for a long time and have joined a number of congregations. I was “excommunicated” once; not really but I was told that they would let me “clean toilets” if I want but that I would never be allowed to have a position of authority in church so long as I held a particular eschatological view. Nowadays, I joke about this a bit, but is a sad situation to recall. I ended up leaving the church within a year or two. But I only came to the above conclusion, conviction really, as the result of a number of churches, and some very special circumstances. I might as well be completely clear: After I had been questioned by some muslims, I was quite distressed to know how to communicate with them the specialness of Christianity, and I had a d ream about churches and it answered my question. The upshot of it was: They will know you are my disciples by your love one for another.

    Also, I have never met an even half-way functional church except for two that happened to have no pastor. One was due to a doctrinal belief, and the other one was a little church of maybe a hundred because in which the pastor demanded the money and split the church; this church simply couldn’t find an acceptable replacement, the members stepped up, and the first year, it turned out that without a pastor’s salary, housing, college funds, retirement, cars, and his kid’s car, they found that they had donated nearly $90,000 to the local poor (it was a very depressed area). At both churches the people were so much more involved in everything, and to my eye their spiritual growth was far more than I had ever seen anywhere else.

    My interpretation was that without a pastor to tell them what to do and how to do it, they all — ALL — grew into it. Talk about exercising your spiritual gifts.

    And then about seven or eight years ago, I happened to be involved by happenstance in things regarding four different churches for four different reasons at the same time, and in each one of them, lies, stealing (millions) chicanery or all kinds of other stuff just turned me to the point that I can’t go back to a plastic church, especially where it is the pastor’s stated intention to make a very good living off of his congregation. I tried again today, but I couldn’t bring myself to do it. I miss Christian community, but I have no stomach for what I call selling Jesus on a bun (no blasphemy intended).

    So for me it was, I feel, a personal lesson from God as well as a series of bad things that opened my eyes to aspects of Scripture, that I think, show the pastors of today to be functionally no different than the scribes and pharisees of 2,000 years ago. So I feel that I just don’t have a choice, and then even if I did, Scripture teaches a different kind of congregation than I see gathering anywhere. I don’t mean to complain but I will NEVER put myself under the thumb of another pastor ever again, unless it’s THE Pastor.

    And my point was at its essence, when I hear people complaining (rightly) about their pastor, I just think: But there really is no “pastorate”, certainly not in any way that we conceive it or define it today, in the Bible. There are elders and people with gifts, and our Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit to guide the congregation as He sees fit. And that’s it. No programs, no Nehemiah funds, no guilt over having your church not grow, no burned out pastors, no “worship team” (or am I dating myself now)’, no order of service, no sermon (they come on their own as the Spirit leads), and frankly, no hierarchical jealousy or ambition. That’s my experience at least.

  5. @ Michaela:

    As I have been thinking about your response to Flicker, something dawned on me that we used to discuss here in the early days of our blog. It is younger people that many of these churches want to attract, and I suspect that they are often too idealistic to realize that there is a dark side to membership covenants.

    I sincerely hope they are starting to see covenants as problematic and something they should refuse to sign.

  6. @ Flicker:
    I would love to hear about your dream. Thank you again for sharing your experience. I suspect there are many who have or currently are coming out of these systems you speak of. I believe Jesus is calling His body directly to Him, and I’m so grateful for that no matter how we feel going through it (out of it) or the many questions we might find ourselves wrestling with as we find our way moving forward. Outside the status quo can initially be scary. But the Holy Spirit is our guide. There’s great comfort in reminding ourselves of that fact.

  7. I think, in the case of my former denomination, the need to be Biblical about absolutely everything tied into the creation of the hierarchy as if it were right up there with Jesus. It was alluded to in “The Truth Project” that there were “trinities in everything” and in any way, shape, or form you can equate something with the trinity – you can do anything you want to control it: so that’s where God > Christ > Man > Woman comes from as well as God > Christ > Church and Man > Woman > Children and Pastor > Elders/Deacons > Congregation after all, we do tender to refer to the Godhead in this order: God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Because the Bible does make provisions for overseers over the assembly, modern churches just take that teaching to it’s logical extreme in an attempt to make it fit. Unsurprisingly, this power / authority corrupts and there are a lot of men and women who really can’t do anything about it. These rules were laid down when the denominations split from the rest of the church ages ago – they are lead by boards of pastors (head of church hierarchies forming a denominational hierarchy) that make the decisions for all time. They weren’t thinking about how something so biblical (holy, righteous, etc.) could be twisted to do so much harm – then again, they thought that there was nothing wrong with slavery because it was in the Bible, too (in the case of my former denomination). The hierarchy is just a leaf out of the world’s playbook, almost every single society exists with some form of hierarchy in leadership – especially the ones from which Christianity is rooted.

  8. Deb wrote:

    @ Michaela:

    As I have been thinking about your response to Flicker, something dawned on me that we used to discuss here in the early days of our blog. It is younger people that many of these churches want to attract, and I suspect that they are often too idealistic to realize that there is a dark side to membership covenants.

    I sincerely hope they are starting to see covenants as problematic and something they should refuse to sign.

    Spot on, Deb. My former church had a Bible study at Stanford University here in Northern California. I thought how nice to do that for the undergraduates and the graduate students. In hindsight, I realize it was a trap to get students to bring their friends and then have them all come to church.

    But there are a lot of older people at my former church as well, old enough to know better. And they will do whatever the pastors/elders tell them. I found it frightening that people were willing to go along with having the good doctor, who has been married to his wife for nearly 50 years, excommunicated and shunned because he disagreed with the pastors/elders about how they were leading the church. People were fine with his name being tarnished before the whole church, with him being lied about.

  9. Flicker wrote:

    Also, I have never met an even half-way functional church except for two that happened to have no pastor….I miss Christian community, but I have no stomach for what I call selling Jesus on a bun (no blasphemy intended). So for me it was, I feel, a personal lesson from God as well as a series of bad things that opened my eyes to aspects of Scripture, that I think, show the pastors of today to be functionally no different than the scribes and pharisees of 2,000 years ago. So I feel that I just don’t have a choice, and then even if I did, Scripture teaches a different kind of congregation than I see gathering anywhere. I don’t mean to complain but I will NEVER put myself under the thumb of another pastor ever again, unless it’s THE Pastor.

    Thank you for your deep insights about the institutional church. I am finding those true in my own spiritual walk. But many of us were taught that this is how we are to ‘do’ church. So I am not going to be too hard on somebody who gets burned from that and is on a learning curve.

  10. Hi, Melissa.

    Sure, I’ll relate the dream to you but I warn you, it has unseemly sexual content. I have whittled it down to bullet points, but the actual dream was very long, very real, very, very detailed, and very upsetting (and in living color, for what it’s worth).

    But just as importantly is the conversation that led up to the dream. My wife and I were sitting at an outdoor café in Morocco, and we couldn’t speak with the gentlemen next to us so eventually they called over a youngish beardless man who could speak English. He was very thoughtful and asked me three questions.

    • He pointed out that I had a beard and asked if I was a muslim. I said I was a Christian, and we were allowed to have a beard or not as a matter of choice, and asked him if he was a Christian because he was beardless. He was startled and said that didn’t have a beard because he was a police officer.
    • He told us that muslims pray in the mosque and asked where Christians prayed. I said we pray wherever we find ourselves wanting to pray, in church or out.
    • He said muslims pray five times a day at the calls to worship, and asked when Christians pray. I said pretty much all the time at anytime we want to pray, but generally most Christians would pray when they wake up, when they go to bed, and before they eat.

    He seemed very sincere and respectful, and I was very disturbed at the thought that I might live amongst muslims and never know how to defend, or make rational arguments for Christianity that would be in any way acceptable. Whatever I would say, they have an opposing view. YHWH is God – no, allah is god. Christ is God’s Son and died for our sins – god has no son, and no, he didn’t die on the cross and not for anyone’s sin. I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit – No, you’re not. God prophesied the date of the coming of His Son five hundred years in advance in order to prove He is the Anointed of God (the 69 weeks of Daniel) – Christians have corrupted the Scriptures.

    And so I was really, unaccountably troubled by this – What is the objective difference?! And 36 hours later I had a very troubling dream.
    • One late afternoon I was in the beautiful green central square of a bucolic picket-fenced town. The square was bounded on four sides by main streets, and on three of these streets stood churches just across from the square.
    • The first church was next to a playground and a man in the window dressed in black with a Roman collar had his fly open and was trying to catch the eye of the children who were playing. When I saw this I shouted, “Run away! Run away!!” and ran away.
    • I came to the second church and was told that they know all about that first church, they have bad doctrine and open sin. And I was invited downstairs to a dimly-lit room where a board meeting was in progress, and while the chief board member talked about the bad doctrine in the first church, he snapped his fingers and started having sex with the recording secretary so very casually in from of everyone, while lecturing me about the other church’s bad doctrine! When I saw this I shouted, “Run away! Run away!!” and ran away.
    • It was now night I came to the third church and they said, Oh, yes, we know about those other churches. One has bad doctrine and open sin, and the other has good doctrine and hidden sin; but we have good doctrine and no hidden sin. And I was invited into the nicest church with an annual pageant about to begin, a talent show with a fantastic band, with beautiful horns blaring and a cute little girl in a spring sun-dress was singing priceless song. The MC had a microphone, perfect black hair, perfect white teeth, perfect physical grace, a smooth and easy voice, and a beautiful electric blue silk suit and tie. But as I interacted with some of the people, there was an undercurrent there of having all these wonderful church programs in order to HAVE them and to do it right, rather than to serve anyone; and there was a sense that it was all for show.
    • Eventually I left the building and was out in the night on the sidewalk and I realized that the third church had good doctrine and no hidden sin, but no love. It was love that was missing. And so I went to the fourth side of the park, but there was only an empty field across the street. I walked all over town in the middle of the night looking for the fourth church, and there was none.
    • And then I woke up.

    And realized that THIS was the way to convert muslims; this was the way that Christians would stand out from other religions and prove their faith and convert the unbelieving: to love each other and to love their neighbors. A church without love is nothing. Jesus said all men will know you are my disciples by your love one for another. That was in 2006, and I’m still looking.

  11. Hi, Michaela,

    I didn’t realize I was being hard on you or anyone who has been burned by a cultic church or by a nice church led by a psychopath (and I mean that literally). If I gave that impression I said things wrong. The fact is that I on the one hand, when I was baptized into the Conservative Baptist Church, was completely willing to accept that church-as-I-was-introduced-to-it, was how church was rightly done. But on the other hand I also read in the Bible that Christians under the tutelage of Paul were supposed to be one body, eating a real meal together (on Sundays, I suppose), knowing one another, loving one another, forgiving one another, and dealing with life in a different manner than the world. It has taken a long time to even begin to consider that pastors are a non-Scriptural, even perhaps anti-Scriptural, and not at all as Paul had directed us, or as Jesus would have it. I have rarely seen this in any church, as my dream written up above demonstrates to some degree.

    Today, it’s only coming more to a head. I’m a slow learner, and my learning curve is very flat. And it’s taken me a long time to throw off my blind acceptance of the existing non-scriptural church format, church hierarchy and church programming (just as it has taken me a lifetime come to believe that Adam and Eve really existed, and to throw off thinking that popular science theories trump God’s word rather than God’s word trumping pop science so-called.)

    I’m sorry that you have been hurt or betrayed by — I’ll say it again psychotic (or at least conscienceless and spiritually criminal) — clergy. Why God allows this I don’t know. But you know that God loves you, too, and will be building an everlasting monument and testimony to His goodness, in you.

  12. @Flicker,

    Thank you so much for your kind reply. What may be obvious to some – cultic churches – may not be obvious to others.

    I am on the mend from my bad church experience. And the bonus is that my sister said to me recently, “I’m so glad that they kicked you out. You might not have ever left. I feared there would come a day when you would no longer talk to me because of them.” How sad is that?

    I am no longer looking for someone and some church structure to tell me how to have a relationship with God. I’ve thrown it all off…and I feel…lighter. And I’m a nicer person to be around. (I was nice before too. I’m just nicer without the influences of legalism.)

  13. Flicker

    Wow – So very well said…

    @ Sat May 23, 2015 at 10:47 PM…
    “….none of these many complaints would exist **if people did NOT erringly submit themselves** to an ungodly and **un-Biblical authoritarian hierarchy.**”

    “**Abusive pastors** are that natural consequence of believers being led into a false concept of the church itself, and **a false clergy/laity distinction.** There is NO mediator between God and man but Jesus Christ – this should be your banner; and there is no growth or guidance besides that solely provided by the Holy Spirit; and there is no purpose for the Church other than to love one another.”

    “But every time I see a criticism of **the abuses of a modern church,** I am always amazed that it is a topic of consideration: **there is a wistfulness for something better,** and an anger over abuses, within an organization of godly people **that is NOT supposed to have that organization in the first place.**”

    @ May 24, 2015 at 08:14 AM….
    “ I feel, a personal lesson from God as well as a series of bad things that opened my eyes to aspects of Scripture, that I think, show **the pastors of today to be functionally NO different than the scribes and pharisees of 2,000 years ago.**

    “But there really is NO “pastorate”,
    certainly NOT in any way that we conceive it or define it today, in the Bible.”
    ———-

    Yeah – in the Bible, there really is NO “pastorate.”
    There are NO, Paid, Professional Pastors, in Pulpits, Preaching, to People, in Pews. 😉
    ———

    What a great over view of “Today’s Corrupt Religious System.”
    And “**a false clergy/laity distinction.**” An **un-Biblical authoritarian hierarchy.**

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

  14. Flicker,

    With your permission, I’d like to write about your dream.

    God spoke to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph (and their respective families) through dreams. Your dream conveys a profound message – nowhere contradicts the written revelation – and I think will strike a chord with people who read what I write.

    I will only use your name Flicker with your permission. The title of the post would be “Flicker’s Dream.”

  15. A. Amos Love wrote:

    “But there really is NO “pastorate”,
    certainly NOT in any way that we conceive it or define it today, in the Bible.”

    Neither is there any prohibition of a pastorate. There are lots of things that are in the Bible and also lots of things that are not in the Bible. The Almighty has given us reason, common sense, and conscience to discern which is which, and which to use or not use.

  16. @ Wade Burleson:

    Sure, I don’t see why not. And I suppose you can use my blogging name, too. If you’re interested in the whole dream I can send it to Dee or Deb and let them forward it to you.

  17. @ Muff Potter:
    Sure, yes, there’s no prohibition against charging a cover at the door as his Biblical “wage”, either. But it’s not really consistent with the purpose of Jesus’ church that Paul (and everyone else) wrote about, is it?

  18. @ Flicker:
    In fact, think about it (obviously you have, but) what’s to keep the practice — that is, what supports the practice — of a pastor in the pulpit, other than tradition? And what’s to prevent charging a cover at the door, other than tradition?

  19. A. Amos Love wrote:

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    Thanks for the verses. They give a good chronology. God gave shepherds, they were bad, in the fullness of time, God provided the Great Shepherd.

  20. Flicker

    In Jer 50:6 KJV
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    What I noticed one day is…
    God’s people were “Lost Sheep” because…
    **“THEIR” shepherds** caused them to go astray…

    NOT God’s shepherds… 😉

    Jesus, taught His Disciples that He, Jesus, is to be,
    “The “ONE” Shepherd.” “The “ONE” Leader.”

    John 10:16 NASB
    I have other sheep, which are not of this fold;
    I must bring them also, and they will **hear My voice;**
    and they will become “ONE” flock with “ONE” shepherd.

    Mat 23:10-12 NASB
    Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
    But the greatest among you shall be your “Servant.”
    Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
    and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

    And, it seems, His Disciples believed Jesus, because, in the Bible…
    NOT one of His Disciples called them self shepherd. Or leader. Or pastor/leader.

    The only “ONE” I can find, in the Bible…
    Having the “Title/Position,” or referred to as, Shepherd/Leader/Reverend”…

    Is… {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

  21. Flicker

    Here are more verses about “Pastors” you’re NOT likely to hear from the pulpit.

    The word “Pastors” is nine times in the KJV, once in the NT and eight times in Jeremiah.
    Six times God is NOT very happy with “The Pastors.” 😉

    Jeremiah 2:8 KJV
    …”The Pastors” also transgressed against me,
    and the prophets prophesied by Baal,
    and walked after things that do not profit.

    Jeremiah 10:21 KJV
    For ”The Pastors” are become brutish, ( beastly, carnal )
    and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper,
    and all their flocks shall be scattered.

    Jeremiah 12:10 KJV
    Many “Pastors” have destroyed my vineyard,
    they have trodden my portion under foot,
    they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

    Jeremiah 22:22 KJV
    The *wind shall eat up all “Thy Pastors,”
    (*wind = ruwach = breath, mind, spirit.)
    and thy lovers shall go into captivity:
    surely then shalt thou be ashamed
    and confounded for all thy wickedness.

    Jeremiah 23:1 KJV
    Woe be unto ”The Pastors” that destroy
    and scatter the sheep of my pasture!

    Jeremiah 23:2 KJV
    …thus saith the LORD God of Israel
    against ”The Pastors” that feed my people;
    Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away,
    and have not visited them: behold,
    **I will visit upon you the evil of your doings,**
    saith the LORD.

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

  22. @ Muff Potter:

    Muff Potter

    You write…
    “Neither is there any prohibition of a pastorate.”
    How about Jesus referring to Himself as “The “ONE” Shepherd?” John 10:16 NASB
    And NOT one of His Disciples taking the “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend?

    In the Bible, His Disciples seemed to think there was a “prohibition of a pastorate.”

    And – How about the prohibition of “Titles?”

    Job 32:21 KJV
    Let me NOT, I pray you, accept any man’s person,
    neither let me give **Flattering Titles** unto man.
    For I know NOT to give **Flattering Titles;**
    in so doing my maker would soon take me away.

    To shepherd The Flock of God, tend His Flock, feed His Flock, care for His Flock. 1 Pet 5:2…
    Does NOT require a “Title” of any kind…

    As this blog, and the commenters here prove, day after day. And many other blogs.

    But, in “Today’s Abusive Religious System” “Titles” and more “Titles” abound.
    Because today’s “Titles” come with Power, Profit, Prestige, Recognition, Reputation, Honor…
    And da boys wit da “Titles” gets to be “Da Boss.”

    ***Titles we find in “Today’s Abusive Religious System” The 501 c 3, IRS Corporation church.
    BUT – are NOT found in the Bible, for one of His Disciples. 🙂

    1 -Pastor. 1a Pastor/Leader/Reverend. 2 – Shepherd. 2a. – Under Shepherd. 3 – Senior Pastor. 4 – Lead Pastor. 5 – Teaching Pastor. 6 – Executive Pastor. 6 – Youth Pastor. 7 – Singles Pastor. 8 – Worship Pastor. 9 – Reverend. 10 – Holy Reverend. 11 – Most Holy Right Reverend. 12 – ArchDeacon. 13 – Canon. 14 – Prelate. 15 – Rector. 16 – Cardinal. 17 – Pope. 18 – Doctor. 19 – M.Div. 20 – Clergy. 21 – Laity.

    22 – Chief Executive Apostle.

    NO kidding. There really is a – Chief Executive Apostle – Saw it with my own eyes. 😉

    Houston – We have a Problem – Titles – Titles – Everywhere – Except in the Bible…

    When you believe the lie you start to die…

  23. @ A. Amos Love:

    We could argue from now until hell freezes over about what the Bible says or what it does not say (or even about what one can make it say if one is determined enough). If you read carefully the second sentence of my original comment you’ll see that reason and conscience should be the final arbiters of what we practice or don’t practice, Ecclesiastical titles can be labels either for good or bad, the choice is ours as individual humans.