Well, this is disturbing: “Jordan Root is currently a licensed professional counselor in the state of Texas, License Number: 68895.”
I am hoping that his license can/will be revoked.

Second-ish. Off to read.

So the pedophile is NOT under church membership but the blameless wife is? Makes a lot of sense to me. And telling her not to contact parents of possible victims? That in itself should be a crime.

@ nmgirl:
OOPS CHURCH DISCIPLINE. This makes me so mad even profanity is not enough.

nmgirl wrote:

So the pedophile is NOT under church discipline but the blameless wife is?

The pedo is MALE.
The blameless wife is FEMALE.
Q.E.D.

Matt Chandler and his ‘church’ are as sick as the pedophile they are protecting

Josh, Doctor of Pulchritudinousness wrote:

If anyone doubts what you’ve been saying about these membership “covenants” being contracts that can and will be used against you at the church leadership’s whim, may the record show that they will.

Nothing more need be said.

Why was The Village Church waiting for the results of the SIM report? Karen Root was right there in Dallas. Why was The Village Church not interacting with Karen who, as the wife, would know as much as anyone what was going on with her husband? I am presuming that she is the person that reported the information to SIM in the first place.

Anyone can see from the communications that TVC views marriage as some sacred cow. Karen got married under false pretenses on her ex-husbands part and TVC is placing “the marriage” in a place of most importance. The marriage is more important than Karen. When will these men acknowledge that marriage is an institution to serve men and women. Men and women were not created to serve the institution of marriage.

Another problem is the amount of control that TVC wants to exert over Karen. They want to control everything that is going on regarding his situation, without giving Karen the freedom of conscience to do what she believes she should do. It is quite unbelievable.

It becomes more evident why preachers like Chandler rallied behind Mahaney.

MOM!!!

Your third son in Washington, D.C. is proud of you! I’m also proud of Amy Smith

Sorry. But, if I were Karen, I would tell The Village Church to bite me.

BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

Through a glass darkly wrote:
The *sin that Jordan has confessed to, use of child pornography, is defined as a crime. Why won’t The Village Church call it that?”

Your whole comment was what stuck out to me as well. Why is TVC treating Karen like the criminal? Did they even report Jordan”s crimes? Perhaps not, seeing that they didn’t even see fit to put him under formal church discipline.
What is wrong with Matt Chandler?

But Jordan said he repented! And he has willingly placed himself in a subordinate position, under the guidance of the elders.

Karen is just plain a rebel.

Nothing wrong. Nothing to see here. Move along.
(answering the question “What is wrong with Matt Chandler?”)

Does anyone know if pastors are considered mandated reporters under Texas law? As a Michigan pastor I would be obliged to contact Child Protective Services with any knowledge and evidence I had about the activity of a pedophile who was a member of my church or on the pastoral staff. If Texas law defines pastors as mandated reporters it is likely that Chandler and whoever else is included in decision-making at TVC have broken the law and a complaint should be filed.

@ XianJaneway:

Didn’t you hear? Matt Chandler is the Wizard of Oz! 😛

TW wrote:

It becomes more evident why preachers like Chandler rallied behind Mahaney.

Yes, it certainly does. The most important thing in the world to those men–every single one of them–is to protect their System and their position in that System. The children who are harmed and the men and women who are harmed simply Do.Not.Matter.

This is a clear example of the deception of the evil one at work.

For info on mandated reporters of known/suspected child abuse, search for the **Child Welfare Information Gateway**. Then search for TEXAS statutes, and in the TOPIC section check the box on MANDATORY REPORTERS OF CHILD ABUSE AND NEGLECT.

Here’s the info from the last time I looked this up for Texas statues. Sorry, I didn’t have time to double-check that the text at this site is the most current available:

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/FA/5/E/261/B/261.101

Boldface added

Citation: Tex. Fam. Code Ann. § 261.101

PERSONS REQUIRED TO REPORT; TIME TO REPORT

(a) A person having cause to believe that a child’s physical or mental health or welfare has been adversely affected by abuse or neglect by any person shall immediately make a report as provided by this subchapter.

(b) If a professional has cause to believe that a child has been abused or neglected or may be abused or neglected, or that a child is a victim of an offense under Section 21.11, Penal Code, and the professional has cause to believe that the child has been abused as defined by Section 261.001 or 261.401, the professional shall make a report not later than the 48th hour after the hour the professional first suspects that the child has been or may be abused or neglected or is a victim of an offense under Section 21.11, Penal Code. A professional may not delegate to or rely on another person to make the report. In this subsection, “professional” means an individual who is licensed or certified by the state or who is an employee of a facility licensed, certified, or operated by the state and who, in the normal course of official duties or duties for which a license or certification is required, has direct contact with children. The term includes teachers, nurses, doctors, day-care employees, employees of a clinic or health care facility that provides reproductive services, juvenile probation officers, and juvenile detention or correctional officers.

(c) The requirement to report under this section applies without exception to an individual whose personal communications may otherwise be privileged, including an attorney, a member of the clergy, a medical practitioner, a social worker, a mental health professional, and an employee of a clinic or health care facility that provides reproductive services.

gardencurate wrote:

Does anyone know if pastors are considered mandated reporters under Texas law?

Yes, they are. But that doesn’t bother them. Some seem to think themselves above the law as well as any moral responsibility.

I don’t even know where to begin. This is beyond nauseating. I sit here in my car in a Sam’s Club parking lot in south DFW, unable to move. Many, many friends and family who idolize TVC. Who attend TVC or Acts 29 affiliated churches. As I’ve mentioned before, I abruptly bailed on an Acts 29 church in DFW last year, much to the dismay of my husband. Taking the good Lord daily err never signed the ridiculous membership contract.
Posted Amy’s blog to Facebook first thing this morning. Received a great response from a friend who also attended the Acts 29 church we left. He’s appalled and thinks it should hit mainstream media. TVC has far, far reaching tentacles in DFW, and beyond.
Karen, thank you for telling your story. Amy, the Deebs, thank you for facilitating Karen’s story. May all who have ears, hear. May all who have eyes, see.

First off. So sorry for your experience Ms. Hinkley. That is dreadful. My sympathies on your recent troubles.

Wow, that church isn’t half pushy is it? More obsessed with maintaining their discipline and power then allowing a woman move on after such a horrible experience. That is just mind boggling. That is some sharia or Hasidic type religious control there. She said leave me alone, just leave her alone. Also what is their obsession with coming before the Lord in prayer together? Especially right away. If they want reconciliation, fine maybe they realized they screwed the pooch. But what’s wrong with waiting a while? The pastors communications to her are so bizarre and filled with Christianese I can’t really tell what he’s trying to do beyond remind her she can’t leave and that he just wants to pray with her and he loves her.

Again, so sorry this is happening to you Ms. Hinkley.

Through a glass darkly wrote:

Well, this is disturbing: “Jordan Root is currently a licensed professional counselor in the state of Texas, License Number: 68895.”

Others have commented that the Texas legislature is very reluctant to interfere when Jeesus(TM) is invoked for justification. Closing ranks against Antichrist Secular Humanism and all that.

Gram3 wrote:

It is clear from these documents what these men worship. They worship the organization of The Village, and they worship themselves as the rulers of The Village.

“You are Number Six.”
“Who is Number One?”
“Be Seeing You!”

Nancy wrote:

@ Gram3:
That is exactly right. Let us hope that this situation will help people to understand that.

For any who don’t know what my comment was about, it was an attempt to demonstrate that the actions of these men flow directly out of their doctrine. It seems incredible to those outside, but they are being absolutely consistent with their doctrine of Man and their doctrine of the Church.

Yesterday or something, I commented that whenever these guys do something ridiculous or outrageous, it is because they are being consistent with their doctrine. I had no idea of this example of that principle.

That is the toxicity of the doctrines. They are applied mindlessly and with no regard for wisdom, common sense, or the sense and teaching of the Bible and the example of the Lord whose name they claim. Their tassels are growing exceedingly long, and they are tripping over them as well as causing many to stumble.

Albuquerque Blue wrote:

The pastors communications to her are so bizarre and filled with Christianese I can’t really tell what he’s trying to do beyond remind her she can’t leave and that he just wants to pray with her and he loves her.

Albequerque, that is the densest Christianese I have ever read or heard outside of a spoof. (And 40 years ago, I was exposed to a lot of Christianese-speakers.) Dotting all the “t”s until the eyes cross to the point even I couldn’t understand it. It literally sounds like a spoof (or a Christianese version of that fake scientific paper presented as a psych experiment to see if proper jargon could carry total nonsense).

Gram3 wrote:

For any who don’t know what my comment was about, it was an attempt to demonstrate that the actions of these men flow directly out of their doctrine.

“Doctrine” or “Ideology, Comrade”?

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
You are the pop culture guru. Wasn’t there something back in the 60’s or 70’s about The Village where the people had to conform mindlessly? That is the first thing that struck me after the outrage of what they have done. They don’t even refer to themselves as a church!

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Albequerque, that is the densest Christianese I have ever read or heard outside of a spoof.

One result of groupthink is the slide into self-parody. I asked someone on another thread if there is a script or a lexicon somewhere, because they all talk the same way, and it is very weird. I just cannot imagine Peter and Andrew speaking that way. Or Paul. Or Jesus, except in the movies.

Membership covenants are evil, IMO.

Albuquerque Blue wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Albequerque, that is the densest Christianese I have ever read or heard outside of a spoof. (

If that level of word salad showed up in my usual circles we’d call Poe in a second.

Except in an Age of Extremes like today, no matter how crazy you get as a spoof or Poe, there’s going to be some True Believer out there twice as crazy and Dead Serious.

gardencurate wrote:

Does anyone know if pastors are considered mandated reporters under Texas law? As a Michigan pastor I would be obliged to contact Child Protective Services with any knowledge and evidence I had about the activity of a pedophile who was a member of my church or on the pastoral staff. If Texas law defines pastors as mandated reporters it is likely that Chandler and whoever else is included in decision-making at TVC have broken the law and a complaint should be filed.

Yes. Clergy are mandated reporters within 48 hours but in TX every citizen is a mandated reporter, and that’s been the law since 1971. http://www.lrl.state.tx.us/scanned/sessionLaws/62-0/SB_149_CH_902.pdf

Dee, let’s just run to Jesus and leave our Satiny ways behind us. 🙂

@ Melissa:

I’m in Dallas too, but I’ve had no direct experience with The Village or Acts 29. I just am acquainted with people who have. I’m taken aback as well. And I will agree that they are influential throughout the city.

TVC has always had a problem with total versus utter depravity. No one is a normal person who has made mistakes, everyone is “broken”. So the 9Marks church discipline is used to uphold their high moral standards and enforce works for members.

My opinion is that they won’t consider that a creep took advantage of this system from the beginning to cultivate a super-righteous image of himself as he did very dark deeds. That would be them admitting they as an institution are flawed by sin (real total depravity), and that 9Marks, TGC, Chandler’s fame, etc. has not made them one of the few, proud, elite “healthy” churches. Not to mention, they were had. Instead they will hold the ridiculous position that pedophilia, a sin named as such by the pagans, is a go and sin no more issue and Jordan should be protected from the consequence of a justifiable divorce among other things. And, this position fits in the narratives they had in the first place.

I am posting from mobile and copy-pasting links is tricky, but The Village’s membership documents are easy to find. Search “The Village Church membership” on Google to some of what I’ve talked about.

Amy Smith wrote:

Melissa wrote:
I don’t even know where to begin. This is beyond nauseating. I sit here in my car in a Sam’s Club parking lot in south DFW, unable to move. Many, many friends and family who idolize TVC. Who attend TVC or Acts 29 affiliated churches. As I’ve mentioned before, I abruptly bailed on an Acts 29 church in DFW last year, much to the dismay of my husband. Taking the good Lord daily err never signed the ridiculous membership contract.
Posted Amy’s blog to Facebook first thing this morning. Received a great response from a friend who also attended the Acts 29 church we left. He’s appalled and thinks it should hit mainstream media. TVC has far, far reaching tentacles in DFW, and beyond.
Karen, thank you for telling your story. Amy, the Deebs, thank you for facilitating Karen’s story. May all who have ears, hear. May all who have eyes, see.
The Dallas Morning News had this story written and ready to go. That’s what we were waiting on. But then last week they pulled it and decided not to run it. It was going to be front page Sunday news we were told. If anyone would like to share this story with DFW media, please do!

Do you know why they pulled it and decided not to run it? That’s crazy.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Gram3 wrote:
It is clear from these documents what these men worship. They worship the organization of The Village, and they worship themselves as the rulers of The Village.
“You are Number Six.”
“Who is Number One?”
“Be Seeing You!”

Sorry, missed this. Gramp3 informs me this is a reference to The Village I was thinking about. Again, I need to get out more.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
These are good questions.

BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

Sorry. But, if I were Karen, I would tell The Village Church to bite me.

She did

Through a glass darkly wrote:

The TX Dept of State Health has a roster of all LPCs, and sure enough, there is Jordan Root’s name on line 13801. In other words, there are PLENTY of others to choose from, folks. Especially if you have children, but even if you don’t, please stay away from this man. Column J is for “Attribute1″ – it’s a shame we can’t update this spreadsheet to include “pedophile” in cell J13801.
https://www.dshs.state.tx.us/counselor/lpc_rosters.shtm

Well, we can’t update the spreadsheet, but I certainly contacted them and included a link to the blog with all the documents. Hopefully, they will take action. Children need to be protected from this man.

So according to Village Church, offending the elders is a bigger sin than pedophilia. Good to know. Because I’m pretty sure it’s not those who offend the elders that Jesus said deserved having a millstone tied around their neck and being cast into the sea.

This extreme example proves clearly that the so-called “membership covenant” of the Village Church is entirely inconsistent with Scripture. They are simply imposing the rule of man, and no member of the body of Christ is in any way obligated to obey their extra-Biblical instruction.

Leave this church and don’t look back.

Gram3 wrote:

It seems incredible to those outside, but they are being absolutely consistent with their doctrine of Man and their doctrine of the Church.

Yes, this is accurate. On the inside, all of this seems perfectly normal, which is why they are quick to assure us that we don’t know “the whole story”. They are confident all we need is more information to “get it”, not realizing that “the whole story” doesn’t make sense at all. Reading through these documents this reminds me of how my church handled my own divorce, only much less over the top. Still, I received text messages after the fact that just hurt, and I honestly think they were trying to be loving, but they didn’t understand that their failure to regard me as a person made it worse (they regarded me as an application of their theology).

I had to be very practiced not to argue back, but just to responded with “please stop.” It did work after a few times.

But I think a lot of the evangelical church lives in an echo chamber where there is just this distorted view of what real life looks like because all they are doing is listening to their own words. And they can’t understand what is immediately apparent to anyone on the outside.

This is unbelievable! Unbelievable.

Chandler and his crew are smoking dope!

Here’s part of the problem that needs to be known. Dee ran into this situation with her child sex abuse situation with Providence Baptist in Raleigh. The Raleigh News & Observer was supposed to report and cover the sex abuse scandal but a big wig in Providence Baptist who worked for the North Carolina power company called the News and Observer and threatened to pull advertising funding from the paper if they covered it. Thus Providence was able to shut down the story from being reported. Something similar happened here…

Originally Amy Smith and Karen Root contacted the Dallas Morning News. The Dallas Morning News (DMN) was originally to break this story. The DMN investigated it, and had all the documents. The attorney for the DMN signed off on all the paperwork. This story was supposed to be broken by the DMN this Sunday. Then what happened is that some powers from a company or coproration that be at The Village Church contacted the DMN and in all likelihood threatened to pull advertising funding if the Dallas Morning News published the story. As the print media is dying the Dallas Morning News scrapped the story and decided not to run it. Thus, The Village Church thought they squashed the story.

Karen is a brave, brave woman. This story highlights many things to include:

Problems in Neo-Calvinism
Problems in church discipline
Problems in Mark Driscoll’s DNA all over the Acts 29 network
Problems in church membership covenants
Problems in churches following the law.

I’m dumbstruck. Anything other than care and concern for the betrayed wife is the first and only point of action. To start throwing their supposed authority around and demanding her compliance to their dictates is boggling.

I would think that even if these leaders didn’t care for this woman, which they obviously don’t, they would at least have the understanding how their actions are going to condemn them in the court of public opinion.

In this case even extreme profanity doesn’t suite these leaders, they appear utterly corrupt, and to top it off they must use the same public relations firm as Kim Jong-un.

Hopefully Karen Hinkley will have some people that will provide the caring and support she needs, a capability the “leaders” of her former church are so sorely missing.

Eagle wrote:

Karen is a brave, brave woman. This story highlights many things to include:

Mainly problems in the hearts of men who call themselves leaders/pastors/elders.

How many “men” in leadership at TVC know about this situation but didn’t act differently than the majority? It really is scary to think about it.

refugee wrote:

Jeff S wrote:
On the inside, all of this seems perfectly normal, which is why they are quick to assure us that we don’t know “the whole story”. They are confident all we need is more information to “get it”, not realizing that “the whole story” doesn’t make sense at all.
This explains Matt Chandler’s tweets. Thanks for the clarification.

Who will push back against his tweets?? Tweets get tweeted to your friends, or those who think along the same lines. These leaders live in bubbles!

Bill M wrote:

I would think that even if these leaders didn’t care for this woman, which they obviously don’t, they would at least have the understanding how their actions are going to condemn them in the court of public opinion.

I suspect they know exactly how the public is going to view it. That’s probably why the DMN isn’t running the story after contacting TVC.

The Village is a member of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA), which, in my opinion, needs to develop a statement about the ethical issues of “membership contracts/covenants.”

http://www.ecfa.org/MemberProfile.aspx?ID=27219

^Clarification: That should have been The Village Church.

brad/futuristguy wrote:

^Clarification: That should have been The Village Church.

Which may or may not bear a close resemblance to The Village.

BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

A friend of mine, and also an ex-member of our former cult, was told to substitute the word “control” every time they used the word “love

Good one…that is so helpful!

Karen,

Thank you for having the courage to come forward with your incredible testimony. Keeping you in my prayers.

Jeff S wrote:

But I think a lot of the evangelical church lives in an echo chamber where there is just this distorted view of what real life looks like because all they are doing is listening to their own words. And they can’t understand what is immediately apparent to anyone on the outside.

I think another facet to this story and the Mahaney one is that this is a guy who is a product of the System, but is nevertheless a failure. He is the personification of the deficiency of their Perfect System which keeps all the Bad Stuff from happening and which produces only a wonderful Mingling of Souls. [retch] This guy Root is the defeater of their entire argument. I’m assuming he went to Cedarville, which is now an SBC university/college. He’s an Insider. He proves that the guarantees given to men that they will be cured and to women that they will be protected from predatory men are all lies. And worse, they are lies of law rather than Gospel truth.

I spent some time on Chandler’s twitter feed. Oh my, what a mess of arrogance, self-importance and promotion and pious drivel. Besides the passive-aggressive swipes at Karen–at least that’s how they come across–he had one that he wrote in between a funeral and a wedding that proclaims that they are both celebrations! Well, yes, a funeral is a celebration, but seriously that is the wrong time to tweet to the world your neat little theology. It is not what a pastor does. It is what an idealogue does.

There is also a video where Lauren tells a woman whose husband has sexually sinned that the woman (Karen) needs to remember that she has failed, too. Isn’t this right out of the sin-leveling playbook? There is something seriously, deeply wrong here, and it is crystal clear to me that Chandler is Driscoll for North Dallas.

Jeff S wrote:

they are quick to assure us that we don’t know “the whole story”

I may not know the whole story, it can never excuse the following paragraph written by Matt Younger, a “pastor” at the church, to Karen:

“In addition, we have been perplexed by your decision to file for an annulment of your marriage without first abiding by your covenant obligations to submit to the care and direction of your elders. As I mentioned in my first letter, this decision violates your covenant with us–and places you under discipline. Per section 10.5 of The Village Church bylaw, you are prohibited from voluntarily resigning membership while subject to the formal disciplinary process. We cannot, therefore accept your resignation.”

Simply incredible. Perplexed?
She’s violating her covenant?

Her ex violated his covenant with her, big time. How many covenants are these “leaders” violating by their actions?

“places you under discipline”

“you are prohibited from voluntarily resigning membership”

just wow, fascist churchianity

Anyone still want to sign a membership “agreement”?

Bill M wrote:

She’s violating her covenant?
Her ex violated his covenant with her, big time.

Read closer. She violated her covenant to THE CHURCH by not seeking their wisdom before her choice to annul the marriage. They aren’t mad (yet) that she left. They are made she didn’t get their permission first.

Jeff S wrote:

As Christians, we do not celebrate death. Death is a product of the fall and something we were not designed for. We can celebrate that there is hope and Jesus has overcome death, but a funeral is not the place for it.

No, we don’t celebrate death, but at a funeral we can (I have) celebrate the life of the one who has gone on ahead. I once had a Christian give me the “we can all be joyful” treatment right after I had to say goodbye to someone very dear to me. To say that was inappropriate would be a gross understatement, and it was very hurtful because it denied the legitimacy of my grief. It’s almost like they think that grieving is a denial of the hope of the Gospel. But I think it is an indicator of how shallow our “theology” really is when it can be reduced to a trite little soundbite. Jesus didn’t do that.

Jeff S wrote:

We can celebrate that there is hope and Jesus has overcome death, but a funeral is not the place for it.

I’ve always loved a good jazz funeral.

Gram3 wrote:

but at a funeral we can (I have) celebrate the life of the one who has gone on ahead.

I agree. I think this is an option available to the attendee; however, I think far too many this perspective is pushed on them and they are denied the chance to grieve.

I have led worship for funerals, so I understand myself that there is/can be an element of celebration to a funeral. But it’s not a word I’d use to characterize the entire event.

Anyway, sorry to take this off track. 😀

Bill M wrote:

Simply incredible. Perplexed?

I don’t know if you have been inside this particular church neighborhood, but this is how they speak. I’ve been in those “perplexed” meetings. What it means is that she has usurped their authority to direct her life. It is their way of putting the problem on her. Her husband is the Good Person in their view because he is submitting to them. She is the Bad Person because she is taking action independently of her spiritual Directors. That is something that is far worse than pedophilia because her “sin” is an echo of their definition of the Original Sin which they claim is the Woman’s usurpation of and rebellion against the Man’s authority. It is the idolatry of Man which makes them such blind guides.

A funeral is for the living, not the dead. It is the living who are hurting. To make light of that is totally not acceptable. I do think that Jesus wept at the tomb of Lazarus.

I think the U.S. Department of Justice needs to be contacted. If the guy was looking at child porn overseas, he had to do it on a computer. What are the chances that computer came back to the states? What are the chances that he brought that computer back with him? Or put that stuff in a Dropbox or other file sharing service? Seriously, if the guy is a US citizen looking at kiddie porn overseas, I’m thinking the Justice Dept. would want to know.

Jeff S wrote:

Read closer. She violated her covenant to THE CHURCH by not seeking their wisdom before her choice to annul the marriage. They aren’t mad (yet) that she left. They are made she didn’t get their permission first.

I did understand that, the actions by her ex precipitated the whole thing. I was implying her decision was completely justified and these “leaders” are not.

You do point out a central issue. These leaders think they have total control over her life and that she cannot, does not, have the ability to act as an independent person and must seek their approval for her actions no matter how justified she is.

Some may now imply that the because she is is a she and not a he, that the things would be treated differently for a he. I would share that asumption.

I’m wondering how many more stories will come out about the Village Church? There’s always more where that came from.

I am curious, too, about how much Karen being a woman is interplaying into how she has been treated on top of the poor understanding of church polity and church discipline and all the other bubble-like things they are doing. People have already made good points here and I only nod in agreement.

A clue into the culture of the Village and women there: Lore Ferguson is a woman from the Village who has suddenly (and oddly) been pushed to the forefront of Christian celebrity culture. She comes across really codependent and brainwashed in her blogs, and her writing is not that good and she is being marketed in a way that seems strange to me. See this about how she perceives herself and the Village Church:

http://sayable.net/2015/03/the-loveliest-church-in-all-the-land/

Amy Smith, you and Karen are freaking heroes.

I’m exhausted. I’ll see you all tomorrow. <3

@ Albuquerque Blue:

Another super creepy, stalkerish sounding part:

LET THIS SINK IN. Pastor Steve Hardin of The Village Church inadvertently copied Karen on an email intended for TVC pastors Richard Brindley and Matt Younger after receiving word of her letter to withdraw her church membership:
—–
Any back story on her email? Where is she living? Have we tried to help push her under our *care?

“Push her under our care?” Asking about her where-abouts? 😯

@ Gram3:

I didn’t get the kind of support I needed or wanted my mother died a few years ago, not even from Christians.
My grief was, and still is, being (mis)characterized by some Christians as self-absorption, or I was told by others to stuff the feelings down and go help other people. I also got churchy, Bibley platitudes from yet other believers.

If one more Christian tells me to go volunteer at a soup kitchen to cope with the fall-out of the death, I may punch a hole in the wall.

(I have done volunteer work before, and it’s not the salve Christians make it out to be, or, I don’t believe in living in denial and doing “busy work” to stuff pain down.)

dee wrote:

Emily wrote:
See this about how she perceives herself and the Village Church:
Never forget the Matt Chandler’s friend, CJ Mahaney, called his SGM church “the happiest church on earth.” Bizarre shepherding lingo.

If I say it enough times and hear it enough times, it must be true. Magical thinking.

Dee wrote:

@ Amy Smith:
It is interesting that the story got pulled after the news told us they contacted the village church. Absolutely fascinating

News media: Bought and Paid For, Praise The LOOOOOORD(TM).

@ dee:

I read a book by Lundy Bancroft about spouse abuse.

As Bancroft explains (and gives examples), some abusers perform mental gymnastics to justify their own failings while simultaneously condemning the same (or even lesser) failings done by other abusers. He would see this on a regular basis in the group therapy sessions with spouse abusers.

Maybe the same holds true for people who prey on children.

I also see a slight similarity to Mark Driscoll on that point.

Driscoll has said in sermons or blogs how deeply he cares about abused women, he has told men to stop looking at naughty magazines and so on, but then he turns around in other sermons, blogs, and books and essentially tells married women they are nothing but play things and blow-up dolls for their husbands.

Driscoll both condemns and supports the exploitation of women – at least by their husbands. Looks like the same dynamic to me.

Brian wrote:

According to the linked documents, they reported to the “appropriate legal authorities” in early January.

Thanks, Brian.

XianJaneway wrote:

Gosh, I have to lock up the computer if I want to stay away.

No kidding! I’ve been trying to follow the convo on two blogs plus google and read on the breaking Josh Duggar story.
Go get some rest.

Albuquerque Blue wrote:

That is just mind boggling. That is some sharia or Hasidic type religious control there.

What’s really ironic in the Texas-Oklahoma Bible belt is that the drive to get anti-Muslim and anti-Sharia laws on the books are fueled in large part by these same fundagelicals who want to practice their own form of Sharia with impunity.

@Beakerj,

Just a note to let you know how much I appreciate your advocacy efforts for youth, children, and others in need — all of the way from across The Pond
in the U.K.

I also love your testimony, love for the Lord, sense of justice, and sense of humor.

Kudos from California!

K.D. wrote:

I think some of these seminaries are pseudo-business schools.

Oh gosh, please don’t lump my environment in with these people. I teach BBA and MBA students at an AACSB-accredited state business school, total uni enrollment 20,000+. We have standards, we enforce them on the students, often much to their chagrin (I fail or force into dropping up to 25% of my students each semester), no one is gifted a degree (such as in many seminaries, particularly the rigid-agenda ones where academic standards are low and getting through is more a matter of internalizing the party line than developing an active, flexible, well-educated mind). We do not have party lines and rigid dogma: some professors are right wing, some are left wing, some believe in group projects, some (such as me) despise them, some are Keynesians, some are Chicago School, some of my law faculty colleagues learn more towards the Living Document Theory, some (such as me) are Originalists. We are from all over the country and the world, our beliefs and styles are all over the board, we probably represent a diverse Body, such as described by Paul in I Cor., more than any neocal or SBC church in the country.

I know you meant no harm or offense, and truly none taken, K.D., but let me tell you, those seminaries would do well to become like a state business school!

dee wrote:

@ Mr.H:
Mr.H wrote:
Is it just me, or does this appear to be the same Jordan Root from Dallas, Texas that was involved with a special organization dedicated to “…victims and survivors of child sex trafficking.”
Most likely yes. You may want to check out Cedarville University in which he started groups dedicated to helping victims of sex trafficking.
Imagine that? He shows *concern* for victims while participating in child porn which is the hotbed for sex trafficking. Think about the psych issues involved with this one.
And he isn’t the one disciplined-his ex wife is. Blech!

So appalling. Words fail.

Praying for Karen and her kids, and for those victims affected by Jordan – both in the pornography itself and possibly in person.

I remember last year when Acts 29 kicked out Driscoll and MHC, and a bunch of Acts 29 defenders came out of the woodwork claiming that Acts 29 culture is not the same as Mars Hill Church culture, and that Chandler is very different from Driscoll.

It’s beginning to look like the culture of The Village Church isn’t very different from Mars Hill Church or SGM churches…

For the record, in my former Acts 29 church, there were a number of men who confessed to pornography addictions, and a couple that involved domestic abuse – both verbal and physical – and in almost every case, the approach was similar to what we are seeing with TVC’s handling of Jordan Root’s situation:

– slow to action
– err on the side of the husband
– a declaration of “repentance” from the husband means that the wife must “forgive”
– the wife’s “forgiveness” means that she must stop dwelling on the issue, or raise further concerns/critiques
– the husband is praised for his “openness” and “humility” while the wife, if she cannot move on, is “sinning”

Maybe not all Acts 29 churches are the same, but it sure does look like there are some common dysfunctional patterns that are woven through the warp and woof of Mars Hill Church and Acts 29.

dee wrote:

Most likely yes. You may want to check out Cedarville University in which he started groups dedicated to helping victims of sex trafficking.
Imagine that? He shows *concern* for victims while participating in child porn which is the hotbed for sex trafficking. Think about the psych issues involved with this one.
And he isn’t the one disciplined-his ex wife is. Blech!

Jordan Root actually participated in sex trafficking, albeit from a computer. Granted, we don’t know if anything further occurred. But his demand for child pornography contributed to the supply of it. A large, large number of these children are sex trafficked. It’s more than a psych issue. Did he become involved in this type of organization for other, dubious desires? As a cover for his own pedophile self?

BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

According to the linked documents, they reported to the “appropriate legal authorities” in early January.

Thanks, Brian.

There are questions being raised about whether TVC reported to authorities in early January as insinuated in their communications. To Karen’s knowledge, NO, TVC has not reported Jordan. SIM did and TVC tried to take credit.

Ms. Hinkley,

if you are reading here I want to tell you that I am in awe of your courage and professionalism in this matter. I just read through the documents on watchkeep’s site and want to thank you for going public. You have no idea what that means to someone like me. Your handling of this situation will prove to be a model for others in these closed authoritarian systems who wake up.

You have paid a HUGE price and your world is forever changed. My hope and prayer for you is that you will find authentic people to support you instead of the cheesy phoney “love” these misguided young men called elders are constantly presenting of themselves. It is so obvious from the documents their only real concern is their authority, power and position. Of course they call it biblical and the Gospel. It is all they know because they have been groomed/indoctrinated to think that way. Only in their world is it biblical to discipline a woman because she seeks to leave a church where they are NOT disciplining her missionary husband, a child pornographer. And all because this long time professing Christian, who was doing missions work while viewing child porn, said he repents. That is all it took for these “loving” elders. That IS sin leveling and it is a horror in real life application. It is evil called good and good called evil. It is that simple.

They have turned you into the sinner for not obeying THEM. There is only one way to deal with such grandiosity: Get as far away as possible from that thinking. It is a culture of death for those who buy into it unless they are in the inner ring and benefiting from the power. But their consciences are seared with deception and lies about good/evil.

I am so glad you are out of there and standing your ground against their “loving” harrassment. You may not feel like it right now but rest assured YOU are the role model for what is right in this situation. You are the one behaving as the “spiritually mature”. YOU are the “elder” in this situation.

God bless you.

I’m not surprised by the Duggar thing, sad to say. They are a family that are sex-obsessed, in a different way to how that is normally thought of. Female bodies are both the most wanted & the most forbidden thing to their heterosexual male children, & in their culture sex is highly prized for its outcome & totally unavailable to the unmarried. Reminds me a bit of a British Public school where the female is the unknown & the craved after… leads to young men with very very mixed feelings, & only illicit ways of fulfilling those needs. What a mess. In his culture it is also the case that victims must forgive… so he would only ever get temporary consequences from anything he did. Poor girls.

Michaela wrote:

I also love your testimony, love for the Lord

Michaela, you’re lovely & this made me laugh as it shows you may not have been around here long… My current testimony is that God dropped me when I was grieving & I have no way of being sure he’s good in any meaningful sense. Everything else was bang on 🙂
I’m currently dealing with a lot of child protection & safeguarding issues & this wholesale failure of churches to actually protect children makes my brain feel weird. How could they possibly? Language fails me.

Gram3 wrote:

That is the toxicity of the doctrines. They are applied mindlessly and with no regard for wisdom, common sense, or the sense and teaching of the Bible and the example of the Lord whose name they claim. Their tassels are growing exceedingly long, and they are tripping over them as well as causing many to stumble.

They really do view themselves as specially anointed and appointed by God. So when you dissent, you are disobeying God. I mean this stuff is thought reform 101. The docs are nothing but thought reform. How do you position coercion and tyranny as “loving”? How do you make a heinous sin (and crime) sound trite? How do you make dissent sound like evil sinning? Those docs are a clue as to how it is done. Imagine those sorts of convos in person. It is even worse when presented with the body language and phoney concern. (You might see why I am a bit harsh when it comes to these guys. I live around this stuff)

Oh,and the docs sounded familiar in another way: I read the same cheesy platitudes in SGM wikileaks.

Lydia wrote:

Oh,and the docs sounded familiar in another way: I read the same cheesy platitudes in SGM wikileaks.

Bingo! And also similar to stuff coming out of Mars Hill Church.

“We want to love you well,” etc. etc.

Amy Smith wrote:

SIM did and TVC tried to take credit.

I see. Because TVC wants the appearance of doing the right thing.

On the Duggars looks like the allegations are true. They released a statement. http://www.people.com/article/josh-duggar-molestation-accusations-duggars-respond

Beakerj wrote:

My current testimony is that God dropped me when I was grieving & I have no way of being sure he’s good in any meaningful sense. Everything else was bang on
I’m currently dealing with a lot of child protection & safeguarding issues & this wholesale failure of churches to actually protect children makes my brain feel weird. How could they possibly? Language fails me.

@Beakerj,

I must have missed some of your posts, regrets, including the one about this:
“God dropped me when I was grieving….” I am sorry.

I agree with you about churches and childrens’ safety. I was excommunicated/shunned from my church of eight years for refusing to go along with the pastors/elders who put their friend a convicted sex offender into positions of trust and leadership, welcomed him as a new member, and didn’t tell members or parents about any of it. I found his crimes while doing research work for a prosecutor. His supervising law enforcement agency disagreed with the pastors/elders and said the entire story the pastors/elders told me was “all lies”.

Daisy wrote:

I didn’t get the kind of support I needed or wanted my mother died a few years ago, not even from Christians.
My grief was, and still is, being (mis)characterized by some Christians as self-absorption, or I was told by others to stuff the feelings down and go help other people.

Oh yes…Christians don’t like emotion. Especially if it’s a woman who is expressing any of them. Most of us have never heard a sermon on weeping with those who weep.

The length of grieving time is different for each person so it’s so inappropriate to try to hurry the process along according to predetermined timetable of our design.

I’m sorry, Daisy, that you didn’t get the support you needed while you were grieving over your mother’s death. 🙁

Lydia wrote:

Imagine those sorts of convos in person. It is even worse when presented with the body language and phoney concern.

Well, I don’t have to imagine them. This story has gripped me because I have seen this same M.O., but I did not experience it in the context of grieving over the betrayal of my husband as she did. My husband has been very supportive and even more outspoken to others than I have been. Believe it or not, I’m the introvert.

So, I cannot imagine how Karen feels being betrayed by her husband whom she trusted and then by her pastors/elders whom she trusted. They have brought disrepute on the name of Jesus, and they should repent. I am thankful that SIM was active in the situation and made it clear that Karen is still a missionary in good standing there. Apparently they have learned the lesson from the SGM disaster.

And now Josh Duggar has resigned from the Family Research Council. I wonder if it has yet occurred to Anna that his ability to make a living may have been materially damaged.

Regarding the police report in the Duggar molestation situation, one of the victims requested that the unredacted report be destroyed to protect her privacy. A judge granted that request today.

Patrice wrote:

The guy hasn’t faced anything. Travesty unfolding.

And he “hasn’t faced it” in fluent Christianese.

Lydia wrote:

It does not surprise me the Dallas News folks did not run with the story after contacting Village. I am sure they were “very” cooperative and did many end runs around the legal/investigative problems with running the story right now. And they probably have some media locals attending there. Perhaps some big advertisers attend there. It was always the car dealership owners thst helped us back in the day. They spent a fortune in local media.

And MONEY TALKS.

Karen, you are simply impressive! I wouldn’t have been able to keep that firmness and clarity throughout. Kudos!

Also it seems that SIM proceeded properly and that is relieving.

Law Prof wrote:

He may not have the fraudulent christianese verbiage down, but the utterly self-obsessed “me-ism”, even in the face of doing something to young, innocent others which typically has the effect of nigh killing them emotionally, he has that down cold.

Well, the Duggars are disciples of Gothard. “Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him.”

@ Bill M:

Sorry, my phrasing was a bit off. I figured you got that, I was just making an emphasis 🙂

Jeff S wrote:

I was just making an emphasis

One that needed to be made.

BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

Sorry. But, if I were Karen, I would tell The Village Church to bite me.

You got that right.

Is it me or is there an explosion of sexual abuse cases in the Christian world? Or has it just been hidden? I think the Josh Duggar case is so very sad. Maybe if they had dealt with it with the authorities honestly it wouldn’t have come back to haunt him. But it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

numo wrote:

@ Patrice:
I would bet money that he was preying on his sisters.

Yeah, I believe you. That kind of thing doesn’t go away, either.

How crazy-making to be pressured into “forgive&forget” (to the point that one of the sisters asked that the report be destroyed) and also face their older brother’s eyes day in/out, surrounded by the Gospels of Gothard, Pearls, Doug Phillips, while mom/dad keep producing more kids. Not even safe in sleep! A deeply twisted over-sexualized environment. Gah!

I hope they will have a chance to break free, someday.

well said Eagle…so true

Here’s the latest I wrote. Its about my experience in my faith crisis where I showed up at churches asking for help and in discussing doubts. Many places were unable to help out. This shows how many churches are unable to help or engage those outside their own community.

https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/05/22/how-to-respond-to-a-faith-crisis-an-agnostic-tries-the-church-and-learns-the-church-cannot-help/

@ Bill M:

I allowed myself to see the dark underbelly 10 years or so ago. Only a few sites were daring to talk about any of it. Now things are very different. Yes it is worse than I thought at first but people are talking and spreading the word.

At some point, people decide to be willfully ignorant. This is about more than authoritarian “spiritual leaders”. It is also about why people are so willing to blindly follow leaders and let them do their thinking for them. I am constantly shocked how few people even want to see a budget for the church where they give their hard earned money. They should demand a vote in how money is spent.

@ Daisy:
Sorry, Daisy, I missed this earlier. One thing I discovered is that grief is usually a complex of emotions that only you can identify as you work through the good things and the bad things that are part of our lives together. In my own experience the time is measured in years. There isn’t a timetable or a right way to grieve, and what other people try to put on you is their problem. Your relationship with your mother is as unique as the two of you are unique, and therefore no one else can possibly know the loss that you are grieving. I think that seeing another’s grief up close makes people very uncomfortable for very many reasons and the ways that other people cope with their own discomfort can make things much worse for the people who are grieving though I also believe that they usually mean well. As I’ve said before, some of the things you write remind me very much of a young woman I know.

@ Former CLC’er:
Hidden.

brian wrote:

I wonder, if a person was in a fire or other immediate dangerous situation would the elders of this church discipline them for getting out before they got hurt or should they stay and burn or until they are told it’s ok to run by said leadership.

I don’t know about that church specifically, but with other Christians:

This School [Pensacola Christian College] Has the Worst Fire Safety Policy You’ve Ever Seen
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/05/17/this-school-has-the-worst-fire-safety-policy-youve-ever-seen/

@ Gram3:
I know Matt and i would consider him a friend, although we haven’t spoken in several years. I remember him as one of the most joyful people i’ve met — he always had a smile on his face and made you feel better about your day when i ran into him in between classes or whatever.

That being said, I am appalled by the letter. Was this his doing? I’m assuming he was just a yes man for Steve Hardin and Matt Chandler.

There is SO much insular thinking in that community. Groupthink is the perfect way to describe it. I was too in that “circle” and it was like a breath of fresh air to have a brother in Christ point me to house church guys, pentecostals, and main line protestants who were saying amazing things (that would never appear on the TGC website).

@ Gram3:

Thank you for your reply.

I’ve noticed that many I’ve gone to (family and Christians in area churches), there are repetitive themes, which are, to deny or repress the grief (and to do so by working at charities), or to make me feel ashamed for feeling or talking openly about grief, so I should just pipe down about it.

I don’t think many Christians (or other people) are comfortable with people who are hurting deeply and who don’t hide it.

@ justin:
It’s possible he got sucked into the system because it seemed godly or serious or for some other reason that seemed right to him. I know lots of young people like that who are caught up in it thinking it is the solution to sin when it just makes everything so much worse because the impulse to exert power over another and oppress someone made in the image of God while invoking God’s authority to do that is almost beyond describing. Maybe Matt and some other young people will wake up and stop this insanity that is holding the conservative church hostage. I’ve been a Christian for a very long time, and this idolatry is shocking and perverse. It is a tragic waste and misuse of youthful passion and zeal.

Bill M wrote:

Michaela wrote:
Now it makes sense: Safety in numbers.

I think there are other plausible explanations

I don’t.

Girls have a pretty good knack for talking amongst themselves about creepy people and learning not to be alone with said creep.

@ Gram3:
I agree and am thankful i got out when i did.

Law Prof wrote:

“I confessed this to my parents who took several steps to help me address the situation. We spoke with the authorities where I confessed my wrongdoing, and my parents arranged for me and those affected by my actions to receive counseling. I understood that if I continued down this wrong road that I would end up ruining my life.” – Josh Duggar
I came here to write exactly this – that’s all I saw when I read his statement. The self-centredness is nauseating.

__________________________________

I, my, me, I, we, I, my, my, me, my, I, I, I, my

“I would end up ruining MY life”

A whole lot about him, Josh Duggar, precious little about those from whom he robbed a childhood. This is not a teenage boy anymore (whom we would expect to be narcissistic) this is a balding, wrinkling man moving into middle age.

If J. Duggar really did craft this statement rather than a Hollywood spindoctor, it would seem that it is not just a sign of a poor grammar education that when referencing counseling, he begins with “me” before including the victims, it reads more like a sign of a monstrously self-centered attitude.

Former CLC’er wrote:

Is it me or is there an explosion of sexual abuse cases in the Christian world?

I think, sadly, there’s always been a lot of abuse everywhere. People feel more able to speak up now maybe? There’s an old village saying (from the days when England was mostly villages, in the pre-car era): What do you call a 12 year old virgin? A girl who can run faster than her brothers.

“Genuine bravery for a writer…. It is about calmly speaking the truth when everyone else is silenced, when the truth cannot be expressed. It is about speaking out with a different voice, risking the wrath of the state and offending everyone, for the sake of the truth, and the writer’s conscience.”
― Murong Xuecun

One thing I’m wondering about this shameful situation is what would have happened if the roles were switched. Let’s say the wife was a paedophile (fairly rare, I know, but not unknown) and the husband annulled the marriage. I somewhat doubt that the husband would be put under church discipline. A clear case of double standards?

Another thought.

Whilst the way that The Village Church has treated Karen is sickening, at least they, and Serving In Mission, took Jordan’s behaviour seriously. I’m not an expect in how these things should be handled, but SIM seems to have responded well by firing Jordan and making it public. TVC at least has passed SIMs statement on to its members.

Yes, there’s a lot that could be better, but I wonder if we’d have seen this level of response 10 or 20 years ago. If you look up “John Howard Yoder” and “Christian and Missionary Alliance abuse” you’ll see cases where abuse reports were not handled properly. So, looking at the big picture, perhaps things have improved somewhat. Whilst I do get the impression that some in the church would still want to cover up sexual abuse (especially of leaders), the climate is such that they wouldn’t dare to do this as their own reputations would be destroyed (as well as facing legal implications from mandatory reporting laws).

[I am in no way defending TVC’s treatment of Karen, which I regard as spiritual abuse.]

So this a.m. my roommate, who still attends CLC (and we obviously think VERY differently on a lot of things) brings up Josh Duggar. I spent all last night just grieving over this, and she starts going off about how people are trying to ruin his life. I was speechless. I do understand that he was 14, but sexual abusers only get worse with time if it’s not addressed. She said the people who needed to know knew. I told her that once the Duggars decided to be on T.V., their rights to privacy were gone.

Ian wrote:

Whilst the way that The Village Church has treated Karen is sickening, at least they, and Serving In Mission, took Jordan’s behaviour seriously. I’m not an expect in how these things should be handled, but SIM seems to have responded well by firing Jordan and making it public. TVC at least has passed SIMs statement on to its members.
Yes, there’s a lot that could be better, but I wonder if we’d have seen this level of response 10 or 20 years ago. If you look up “John Howard Yoder” and “Christian and Missionary Alliance abuse” you’ll see cases where abuse reports were not handled properly. So, looking at the big picture, perhaps things have improved somewhat.

I want to agree with this. When I read the story on Amy Smith’s blog, I was prepared for another story about the long-term, systematic coverup of abuse. Because of that, I was pleasantly surprised by the way SIM handled the situation: they took the allegations seriously, terminated the overseas assignment, informed TVC, and don’t seem to have held Karen responsible. (I might be reading too much between the lines on that one; I took the sentence at the end of their letter that said that Karen remained a part of their organization as a good thing). I’m less impressed with how TVC handled things–they don’t seem to have taken the situation seriously enough, and this seems to have quickly become about Karen, which is a huge problem. [Incidentally, this blog has convinced me to never sign a membership ‘covenant’. Well done].

That said, I think the fact that I was pleasantly surprised is indicative of a much larger problem. Churches, missions organizations, and parachurch organizations should be places where abuse isn’t tolerated and where victims are taken seriously and supported. The fact that the more normal story in cases like this is that there is usually a significant history of enabling abusers, blaming victims, and covering up allegations suggests that there are huge systemic problems in church culture and that they need to be addressed. In other words, SIM’s actions should be expected and normal, not remarkable.

Was the fraud that he confessed to be a viewer of child pornography, which is a crime? Texas annulled the marriage based on fraud. Sorry if I’ve missed several points.

Does anybody know which church Matt Younger attended while at Texas A&M? We would have been there at approximately the same time. I can confirm that that is when he would have become a Matt Chandler junkie, most likely while volunteering with Breakaway, an on-campus worship service where Matt Chandler got his preaching career off the ground. I just wish I knew which church Younger attended because I could give you all more background on how he would have gotten sucked in to this nonsense. There are some wonderful healthy churches in the Bryan/College Station area and there are others that breed this level of fanaticism.

To Karen, my deepest apologies for what happened to you. You deserve much better from your family in Christ. I pray you find comfort and support.

Nancy wrote:

As to the question of whether it is better now than it was before, or not. All I know is that when I was a kid we were taught that potential sexual abuse/attack potentially lurked around every corner and that we had to be extremely careful because of that. I am assuming that, in fact, that was the case.

What period (roughly) was that?

But I don’t think it was the case in the way you seem to be describing.

I remember well receiving similar warnings as a child (in the 1970s/80s), including cringeworthy government films telling us not to go off with strangers. But back then, society didn’t realise that sexual abuse generally takes place in situations where abuser and victim know and trust each other (eg friends, family, church, school, clubs, etc). In the UK, I think the requirement for organisations to have child protection policies only began in the 1990s. And our system of background checks for those working with children was weak and ineffective until the early 2000s.

The stereotype of dirty old men in raincoats hiding in dark alleys to kidnap and abuse children was never true. Rather, paedophiles are regular people who work their way into positions where they can groom their victims over a long period before molesting them. We now understand this and have made it much harder for paeophiles to have access to children, and we take reports of abuse far more seriously.

Daisy wrote:

It sounds Stepford Christianish.

ROFL! Perfect, Daisy! I must remember that one!

The evidence was on a computer which is *somewhere*.

Crushed and in a landfill and You Can’t Prove a Thing.

nmgirl wrote:

Karen, good for you! and I hope the FBI has been informed about the child porn. Highland Park police won’t do anything.

Are Highland Park police members of TVC?
Or do the TVC Pastor-Elders(TM) include a Police Chaplain?
Or just closing ranks for The LOOORD against the Heathen?
Code of Blue, remember.

Law Prof wrote:

As I recall they were also quite tight with Doug Phillips.

Oh, yes. In fact, Vision Forum sponsored the Baby Conference where Michelle Duggar was presented the “Mother of the Year” award in 2010. Doug Phillips couldn’t gush enough about her. And why not? Michelle “knows her place.” Which is, obviously, being driven home to the other females in the Duggar family.

If you haven’t read Mary DeMuth’s Washington Post article, you should! Wise words. wapo.st/1Ajx3Vh

Elizabeth Lee wrote:

Church and church leaders continue the standard harassment. The criminal husband is not under church discipline, but the former wife (annulment has been granted) IS even though she is legally not a member and she could sue for harassment and win.

So here is the thing – Chandler and TVC are using cult tactics. Mark Dever has been advocating cult tactics for years. Now those cultic control methodologies are being used in wicked ways in decidedly mainstream evangelical contexts. These folks are bringing shame to Christ and the church through their actions, but they will never see that. Anyone deceived enough to think exercising this measure of control over a person is a good thing is probably too far gone to understand anything other than power.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Highland Park Police or Park Cities Police are in charge of protecting an extremely wealthy enclave from the outside world. If you don’t know anything about HP, it’s where the maid drives the Mercedes.

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

Anyone deceived enough to think exercising this measure of control over a person is a good thing is probably too far gone to understand anything other than power.

That is my view. Engaging them in this context is a waste of time. Better to engage the pew peons by taking it public. Some of them are suppressing their instincts in order to be in the group. Been there done that.

Ian wrote:

What period (roughly) was that?

My parents started telling me this from as early as I can remember, that would be the late 1930s. When we got old enough to ‘get in a car with a boy’ we were told the same sort of thing in (believe it or not) church and school sex ed (hygiene) classes. When I first went into nurse’s training in 1953 they took a class period early on, before they ever let us go onto the floors, and told us that sometimes patients try to do the following (oh my goodness!) and how to avoid the possibility of such a situation and how to handle it if it happened. When I worked as a public health nurse in approximately 1958 or so they told us the same thing about the dangers one might encounter during the home visits which we did.

When my children were in school they were told the same things at home and school and church. I know this for a fact because the parents were notified of the content of the class. And now my children watch their children like hawks for reasons of safety and also both of the school age girls (grandchildren) have been told this in school-or at least they said they had.

And no, nobody ever told anybody that it was just stranger danger. The idea of if something bad is going on at home you should tell the teacher was drilled into the heads of my children and grandchildren by the schools. This of course included more than just sexual abuse but also physical abuse and drug use.

Gram3 wrote:

Obviously they do not really mean this or else they mean that the “covenant faithfulness” of the pewpeons is more important than the “covenant faithfulness” of the Authoritative Leaders.

And the expression “covenant faithfulness” is a favorite of another control-freak group, Doug Wilson’s Federal Visionists. They don’t use it in this way, but it means the same thing: obey the law or else.

nmgirl wrote:

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Highland Park Police or Park Cities Police are in charge of protecting an extremely wealthy enclave from the outside world. If you don’t know anything about HP, it’s where the maid drives the Mercedes.

Is TVC in Highland Park?

Gram3 wrote:

Obviously they do not really mean this or else they mean that the “covenant faithfulness” of the pewpeons is more important than the “covenant faithfulness” of the Authoritative Leaders.

Rank Hath Its Privileges.

Gram3 wrote:

Another was gardening. I had never been interested in that, but seeing the way that God has ordered his world so that he brings life from the earth helped me. This afternoon when I was so upset by this shameful horror, I went out and stuck some more cuttings from my butterfly bushes. Because God makes roots and leaves and flowers sprout from sticks.

I recently found something along those lines to engage myself with. I used to make sourdough bread a few years ago. I gave it up when my life spun into turmoil. Last week I got another starter going and began making bread and waffles. It’s become an interesting science project for my youngest son. It’s amazing what the abundant microbial life that surrounds us can do. I found it helped me to reconnect with . . . something. Sort of like elastigirl has talked about experiencing God in a beautiful sunset or sunrise. (She mentioned it a long time ago.)

Gus wrote:

Because women deciding how to live their own lives and making their own decisions ia an insult to our authority as pastors and an affront to male headship.

“The Man PENETRATES! COLONIZES! CONQUERS! PLANTS! The woman lies back and accepts.”
— Doug Wilson, God’s Anointed (or was that Ramsey Bolton re Sansa Stark?)

@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
True. There are women (and probably men, though in that crowd women don’t mix a whole lot with men) of my acquaintance who would have seen those text messages from the older elder as simply expressing loving concern.

Bridget wrote:

Is TVC in Highland Park?

That would explain why Dallas Morning News killed the story. (Not News — doubleplusunnews.)

Dallas Morning News: BOUGHT AND PAID FOR.

P.S. Where’s the comments about OLIGARCHY?

@ May:
My mouth is hanging open. I am not surprised, merely astonished at the hubris.

What occurs to me is that reading Karen’s story is uncannily similar to reading one of those tragic SGM stories – of which there are countless – on the SGM Survivors’ Blog. And that leads me to a couple of thoughts

1. Matt Chandler, just like CJ Mahaney, manages to stay aloof from the issue, keeps his hands clean and appears to get the minions to actually handle these cases/ do the dirty work. Thus, he can claim like CJ that he had nothing to do with it. Correct me please – I may be wrong on this

2. God is using WOMEN to raise issues of abuse and to hold men to account. I know a poster said this upthread. Amy Smith and the Deebs have broken this story. Just like Kris did on the SGM Survivors blog. Karen, as has been said, is the ultimate hero here. Women are prepared to step up, care for the hurt, be brave, and refuse to be invested in the precious ‘system’.

@ Law Prof:
Actually, I don’t think they know Him. They might have brushed elbows with Him once or twice, which gave them bragging rights as to an intimate acquaintance. And He might have been aware that power went out of him when they touched His Robe…

On the other hand, the woman with the issue of twelve years, who touched His robe, did so with a simple and beautiful faith, and so the power went out of Him, and he turned around and said, “Who touched Me?” (even though I figure He probably already knew the answer to that question…)

If they even brushed elbows with Him, but weren’t seeking Him in faith, well… they might be among the ones in the crowd that He’ll address later, saying, “Depart from Me, for I never knew you.”

Speaking metaphorically, of course. Don’t mind me, I haven’t had my quota of morning coffee yet.

I do not understand how it is that in America people can be convinced to sign away their rights? That is such a foreign an idea to me. At the same time we have people literally taking to the streets demanding rights side by side with people who sign away their rights and believing that they are pleasing God in doing so.

Does anyone know where in east Asia Jordan Root was a missionary? I cannot find this online.

Would it have been Thailand by any chance? (If it was, there is not a snowball’s chance in hell that he did not touch children.)

Law Prof wrote:

Something I very much wonder about. Are they really warped Christians who started down a wrong path

I’m not sure that anyone whose goal it is to amass a tourist trap megachurch was ever in it for Jesus to begin with.

May wrote:

What occurs to me is that reading Karen’s story is uncannily similar to reading one of those tragic SGM stories – of which there are countless – on the SGM Survivors’ Blog. And that leads me to a couple of thoughts
1. Matt Chandler, just like CJ Mahaney, manages to stay aloof from the issue, keeps his hands clean and appears to get the minions to actually handle these cases/ do the dirty work. Thus, he can claim like CJ that he had nothing to do with it. Correct me please – I may be wrong on this
2. God is using WOMEN to raise issues of abuse and to hold men to account. I know a poster said this upthread. Amy Smith and the Deebs have broken this story. Just like Kris did on the SGM Survivors blog. Karen, as has been said, is the ultimate hero here. Women are prepared to step up, care for the hurt, be brave, and refuse to be invested in the precious ‘system’.

I always loop back to Zipporah, daughter of a possibly pagan priest, who nonetheless had more wisdom than Moses her husband and had the temerity in that place/day/age to get in his face, upbraid him severely (“Husband of blood!” probably wasn’t a mild rebuke, I wouldn’t take it as such from my wife), take charge, do the right thing and literally saved Moses’ life, as the Lord was about to strike him dead for his disobedience. It seems to me that the men who make their wives and women generally into junior partners, pretty baubles, baby factories, pen– homes, or gardens to be fertilized and planted, are just begging to be wiped out. Just ask Driscoll, Phillips, and now, perhaps, Chandler and company.

May wrote:

Does anyone know where in east Asia Jordan Root was a missionary? I cannot find this online.

On Amy Smith’s blog, a letter from TVC says Karen and Jordan were working among the Cheuasai people. (I don’t know if that helps. I’m still not finding much on google.)

@ Bridget:
Yes, let’s not forget the men (and women, following the company line) who teach that if a man strays sexually (and that can include porn), it’s his wife’s fault for not being available enough, or exciting enough, or “letting herself go”…

I don’t remember anymore where that teaching originated, or who was known for it, but I know I’ve heard it down the years, and not just from men but from women, in women’s “bible” study groups, and christian marriage advice books.

Ben Denison wrote:

If you haven’t read Mary DeMuth’s Washington Post article, you should! Wise words. wapo.st/1Ajx3Vh

Excellent OP! Thank you!

May wrote:

What occurs to me is that reading Karen’s story is uncannily similar to reading one of those tragic SGM stories – of which there are countless – on the SGM Survivors’ Blog.

Julie Anne just shared a link to an article written by Matt Redmond. In point number 9 he also makes a comparison to SGM:

“9. And it will happen again. And again and again. The dude-bro will get a pass and his wife will be expected to fall in line. This is exactly what happened with SGM. The wife was expected to stay with the pedophile husband and if they did not, the wife was disciplined. And it kept happening.”

http://mattbredmond.com/2015/05/22/some-thoughts-on-what-is-happening-at-the-village-church/

Nancy wrote:

internet

I think you are correct. They were already marking her with the correspondence they were releasing to others in the church.

The need these church leaders have to exert power and control over others simply boggles the mind.

This story points to one reason (of many) that “no women in leadership” is such a bad idea. The odds that a woman, assuming she actually had some power within the leadership group, would allow these guys to continue down the “we demand that you let us ‘care for you’ road” are probably a million to one. I just can’t see it happening. Every woman can imagine what it would be like to be the victim in this situation, whereas most men cannot. So having a woman’s perspective here (and everywhere else) would be incredibly helpful.

Karen may have a legitimate claim for defamation if the church or a pastor made false statements about her, such as that she divorced, rather than received an annulment! And putting her under discipline is based on a lie by the pastors, so telling the church that Karen left under discipline is a false statement.

@ BeenThereDoneThat:
That makes two of us, and I also find prayer extremely difficult, for the same reasons.

@ BeenThereDoneThat:
i try to keep whatever praying I do to be very, VERY concise and brief. It helps. I suffered from paralyzing anxiety about “not doing it right,” due to the super-spiritual, revelatory “prayer times” that some people seemed to have. Me, I always found my mind drifting, or I feel asleep quickly, or whatever. Just did not “perform properly,” up to the standard that was drilled into my head in evangelical/charismatic territory.

I do believe God was communicating with me, but not via those means. Through everyday things, yes. Through some kind of harsh spiritual regime, no. In fact, the opposite.

@ GC:
No, not necessarily. Stacy McDonald and Jenny Chancey come to mind, with their book for instructing daughters (Raising Maidens of Virtue), that we burned (to our teens’ great relief and satisfaction) when at least part of our family came out of patriarchy. I could name any number of patriarchs’ wives, who led “women’s sessions” while their husbands were off instructing the men and boys, at the annual seminars sponsored by our former church.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Crushed and in a landfill and You Can’t Prove a Thing.

Sooner or later the luck of the guilty goes south and you got nothin’ sometimes becomes something the DA’s office can make stick. Karma and her sister comeuppance are relentless and one way or another they’ll reset Themis’ balances.

numo wrote:

I suffered from paralyzing anxiety about “not doing it right,” due to the super-spiritual, revelatory “prayer times” that some people seemed to have. Me, I always found my mind drifting, or I feel asleep quickly, or whatever. Just did not “perform properly,” up to the standard that was drilled into my head in evangelical/charismatic territory.

Same here. We were supposed to spend at *least* 30 mins a day in charismatic prayer. It became less about a relationship and more of a legalistic requirement.

@ May:
I have been wondering about the financial aspect since they were missionaries and it sounds like TVC put up some support.

Daisy wrote:

This kind of thing may not have bothered me as much in the past, but now the preacher’s Bible Guy sounding delivery makes me roll my eyes or cringe – it sounds cheesy, insincere, and manipulative to me now.

Bingo.

Daisy wrote:

As someone who is not firmly planted in the Christian faith any longer (I’m only somewhat Christian these days), a small thing that troubled me about this, was the fake-sounding, pious, Christianese terminology in the preacher’s writing.
This kind of thing may not have bothered me as much in the past, but now the preacher’s Bible Guy sounding delivery makes me roll my eyes or cringe – it sounds cheesy, insincere, and manipulative to me now.
The preacher used churchy phrases with her such as, “…for our Fathers glory I would like to hear your heart,” “we have counseled him to trust in the Lord in facing the consequences…,” “until then, may be Christ be exalted in all things,” and “continue to know our Fathers mercies are new every day.”
That no longer sounds to me how a person would write or talk in every day, regular correspondence.
It sounds more like how someone living in the evangelical bubble would communicate. It sounds Stepford Christianish.
Do evangelical preachers take courses in seminary called “Overly religious, cheese ball, Christianse Rhetoric and Correspondence 101″?
Followed by: “How to Sound Like A Robot Who is Programmed With Religious Phrases and Vague Biblical References 202″?

Jesus didn’t talk like that.

Gram3 wrote:

Please let them know where their kephale can be found. They have lost it.

In their πρωκτός of course…

lydia wrote:

@ May:
I have been wondering about the financial aspect since they were missionaries and it sounds like TVC put up some support.

As a matter of fact, one of the TVC documents states that they plan to continue to support Karen through August.

elastigirl wrote:

I want to know what happened at that “Conversation With The Elders On Karen Root”. The one that took place on Sunday, March 14th in the Cambridge Cafeteria where the elders hosted an open conversation specifically as it related to Karen Root.
What was said? How was she portrayed? What was the degree of spin, deception, ‘mis-speaking’, lying…
(what a violation, to be discussed like this with a large group, through the lense of & being represented by the guardians of the institution and empire no less)
Is there anyone who was there who can comment?

That the church did this is repulsive.

Nancy wrote:

Why would they do this? What on earth could be important enough to put themselves in this position especially when Jesus said what he said about someone who causes one of the little ones to sin?

I’m not a psychologist, but the only thing that I can think of is that their system has become their god, and Jordan is an example of how their System does not bring in the New Heavens and the New Earth. Therefore there is a blind and desperate effort to make it all go away by any means necessary, up to and including the practical affirmation of pedophilia. It is a willful blindness because they have hung their entire identities on their System, and their System like any other idol must be protected and defended at all costs.

If we go back to the post where Matt Chandler finally canned Driscoll, I said that it did not show any repentance on Chandler’s part for the corruption arising from their System. Chandler only dumped Driscoll because Acts29 was taking on water. Chandler was not a hero. I said all that not because I am a prophet but only because I have seen the fruit of this System and its hold on people up close. I’ve been in the meetings where I left and said “What just happened here?”

lydia wrote:

@ elastigirl:
They were wrong to do this! She revoked her membership officially.
I wonder if something like this could be a legal problem for them?

If they talk on before the church about her alleged sins, it could be a legal problem, e.g., defamation. And even if what they say is true–i.e., not defamatory–they could still get into legal hot water by disclosing private facts about her that the reasonable person would object to the disclosure thereof–that would involve tort law.

Courts are reticent, however, to interfere with the function of a religious non-profit regarding whether they want to keep her on membership rolls. I doubt a court would order the church to drop her from the roll, but of course, this is a distinction without a difference, because she could sue them for attempting to discipline her once she’s given notice of her intent to terminate.

Gram3 wrote:

It is a willful blindness because they have hung their entire identities on their System, and their System like any other idol must be protected and defended at all costs.

People who are defending their idols typically defend them with greater vehemence and brutality than one who is trying to defend the Lord Himself, because one defending the Lord knows He needs no defense, He can handle Himself–but the idol, that is a creation of the one in idolatry, and must be propped up and defended at all costs and detractors destroyed by any means.

May wrote:

Nancy wrote:

Way to go, Karen.

Hear, hear.

Karen, you have handled this amazingly. Well done.

Another vote in the affirmative.

The part I’m still grappling with is how many in that church know of Karen’s treatment and continue to stay and support the institution.

At my the former church there were a number of people who were similarly very troubled over the same things I saw. For various reasons some stayed. I continue to see some of them, we no longer talk about it and if asked, the response is everything is fine. They truly don’t see it anymore. Read carefully, it isn’t they don’t want to see it, the don’t see it.

What I see is not a grudging acceptance of things are wrong but I can’t change it. Instead I see there is only a short period of time, when you first see something wrong, if you don’t decide right then and instead decide to live with it, you soon become oblivious to it.

Cognitive dissonance doesn’t quite explain it for me. One side appears to completely win out and awareness of the alternative disappears. If it is the corrupt system, the adherents lose all sense of its evils, they may even begin to defend it.

How do you break through?

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

Gram3 wrote:
Please let them know where their kephale can be found. They have lost it.
In their πρωκτός of course…

I was thinking perhaps the process had advanced beyond your scope. What is the remedy, Dr.?

Bill M wrote:

May wrote:
Nancy wrote:
Way to go, Karen.
Hear, hear.
Karen, you have handled this amazingly. Well done.
Another vote in the affirmative.
The part I’m still grappling with is how many in that church know of Karen’s treatment and continue to stay and support the institution.
At my the former church there were a number of people who were similarly very troubled over the same things I saw. For various reasons some stayed. I continue to see some of them, we no longer talk about it and if asked, the response is everything is fine. They truly don’t see it anymore. Read carefully, it isn’t they don’t want to see it, the don’t see it.
What I see is not a grudging acceptance of things are wrong but I can’t change it. Instead I see there is only a short period of time, when you first see something wrong, if you don’t decide right then and instead decide to live with it, you soon become oblivious to it.
Cognitive dissonance doesn’t quite explain it for me. One side appears to completely win out and awareness of the alternative disappears. If it is the corrupt system, the adherents lose all sense of its evils, they may even begin to defend it.
How do you break through?

“We’re sorry. It’s not us. It’s the monster. The bank isn’t like a man. Yes, but the bank is only made of men. No, you’re wrong there—quite wrong there. The bank is something else than men. It happens that every man in a bank hates what the bank does, and yet the bank does it. The bank is something more than men, I tell you. It’s the monster. Men made it, but they can’t control it.” Steinbeck, Grapes of Wrath

Substitute “church” or, perhaps more accurately with this crowd, “local church” for “bank”.

I think some members become cynical but stay for friendships or convince themselves they’re doing clandestine mission work, making a difference, being the light rather than cursing the darkness–insert favorite cliche.

Law Prof wrote:

People who are defending their idols typically defend them with greater vehemence and brutality than one who is trying to defend the Lord Himself, because one defending the Lord knows He needs no defense, He can handle Himself–but the idol, that is a creation of the one in idolatry, and must be propped up and defended at all costs and detractors destroyed by any means.

So true. Tribal loyalty to the tribes god.

Gram3 wrote:

@ Gram3:
tribe’s. I know how to use apostrophe’s.

I saw that, but I assumed you did. People have to overlook a lot of my typos also.

Can I offer a small observation from my position in the friendly opposition? Please avoid going down the Not True Christian™ road with these people. It seems to be one of the ways that helps hide these types. Because they’re obviously true Believers and everyone knows true Believers don’t do stuff like that. From what I know of one your faiths basic tenets, everyone has potential, inclination and agency to do bad stuff and being a True Believer™ even doesn’t stop that from occurring. Don’t blind yourselves, please.

I wonder if the way churches do their self governance is going to have to change. Transparency is probably going to have to be upped. What’s a good way to organize in those sort of environments as the American Protestant church?

Albuquerque Blue wrote:

Can I offer a small observation from my position in the friendly opposition? Please avoid going down the Not True Christian™ road with these people. It seems to be one of the ways that helps hide these types. Because they’re obviously true Believers and everyone knows true Believers don’t do stuff like that. From what I know of one your faiths basic tenets, everyone has potential, inclination and agency to do bad stuff and being a True Believer™ even doesn’t stop that from occurring. Don’t blind yourselves, please.
I wonder if the way churches do their self governance is going to have to change. Transparency is probably going to have to be upped. What’s a good way to organize in those sort of environments as the American Protestant church?

I understand where you’re coming from, and you’re right. I have, as a believer in Jesus, done some awful stuff; I have yet to find one like myself who has not done awful stuff. That’s a central tenet of our faith, as you correctly identify.

But… When I see people who come in the name of God who do stuff diametrically opposed to anything Jesus taught and doing so persistently without seeming to notice or care, when I see that these people almost invariably target for abuse those who claim to have a faith in Jesus, I am left to wonder what exactly they do believe.

The Bible that tells us we all fall short also more-or-less tells us some people are fakes and frauds and simply hang with us so that they might harm us more efficiently.

Albuquerque Blue wrote:

I wonder if the way churches do their self governance is going to have to change. Transparency is probably going to have to be upped. What’s a good way to organize in those sort of environments as the American Protestant church?

This is true IMHO, and in fact, is a subject for some upcoming research I want to engage in.

Law Prof wrote:

S (Scriptural?)

The S is a typo which I somehow added in the combox. But your point is right on target.

An examination of their website might turn up some more interesting and sweet things. Yeah, “sweet” is another one of those tooth-curling sweet words I’ve heard a lot.

Gram3 wrote:

Each of these elders at The Village has a wife, I presume. Where are those women, and why are they being silent? Because they benefit from the System like the others on the conference circuit? They need to step up and be Deborahs, the “woman of torches.”

I had an online discussion with the wife of a convicted pedo from SGM about this very subject. The wives of the leaders were of no help. The wives were around to support their husbands every decision. In other cases, wives are not even aware of the issues in the churcb until said issues come out in the general public. Women are trained to suspend their instincts, logic, and reason. They are also trained to NEVER publicly disagree with their husbands.

Gram3 wrote:

We have learned enough from the right people that we no longer have a need to watch ourselves and our lives as individuals. It is a trap.

In environments like SGM, Mars Hill, 9 Marks –sin sniffing is foundational to their doctrine.

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

Elizabeth Lee wrote:
Church and church leaders continue the standard harassment. The criminal husband is not under church discipline, but the former wife (annulment has been granted) IS even though she is legally not a member and she could sue for harassment and win.
So here is the thing – Chandler and TVC are using cult tactics. Mark Dever has been advocating cult tactics for years. Now those cultic control methodologies are being used in wicked ways in decidedly mainstream evangelical contexts. These folks are bringing shame to Christ and the church through their actions, but they will never see that. Anyone deceived enough to think exercising this measure of control over a person is a good thing is probably too far gone to understand anything other than power.

Amen!

@ Ian:

I have a couple of theories. One has to do with the impact of the cultural revolution of the 60s and 70s. Over here there were massive changes in attitudes about a lot of things (like drugs) and there were also individuals and pockets of individuals who were digging in about some things and not changing. I am thinking that we over here became a nation even more divided during that time. Maybe this is one area where there was cultural change.

My other theory is that UK and US are different in more ways than we want to talk about. For example, we have that second amendment thing and that kinds of looks different. And we do not have any official state church(es). And some of us grew up idolizing the frontier days as an heroic era and playing childhood games related to the wild west and some little child who allegedly shot some ‘bar’ and saved the day. Perhaps we do not expect ‘civilized’ behavior as much as you all do, or perhaps we do not even define it the same way. This is just conjecture.

@ Gram3:
I didn’t go back to look at the particulars, but what I remember reading might have been taken as leverage, as I recall.

Gram3 wrote:

Each of these elders at The Village has a wife, I presume. Where are those women, and why are they being silent?

Ever heard of the term “Queen Bee”?

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Stirs a painful memory. Yes, that, too.

refugee wrote:

@ Bridget:
Yes, let’s not forget the men (and women, following the company line) who teach that if a man strays sexually (and that can include porn), it’s his wife’s fault for not being available enough, or exciting enough, or “letting herself go”…
I don’t remember anymore where that teaching originated…

My guess is porn.

It sounds like a basic building block of porn, where the woman has to always be available, always be exciting, always be knockout-bombshell in the looks department, and NEVER object or hesitate to anything the author/reader/viewer Self-Insert (or the Urges in his Areas) wants to do to her.

May wrote:

I think Mark Driscoll is like you describe here. Power hungry, narcissistic – it was always about him. As soon as he became a Christian, from what I can gather, he decided to start his own church. I mean, who does that?? A narcissist.

Others I would like to think started out on the right path (a long time ago), got caught up in a twisted theology and a corrupt system, were given power which went to their heads, and ended up losing their way and losing their first love.

“It’s not that Power tends to Corrupt. Power tends to attract the Already Corrupted and the Easily Corruptible.”
— Frank Herbert

“But the hearts of Men are easily corrupted, and the Ring of POWER has a Will of its own.”
— J.R.R.Tolkien(?)

refugee wrote:

@ Gram3:
I didn’t go back to look at the particulars, but what I remember reading might have been taken as leverage, as I recall.

In the third Scribd window there is a Feb. 20 email from Steve Hardin. Though the document seems to have a date in the upper left of 3/31/2015 so I’m not sure the timeline, but this is what Steve Hardin wrote about in the “Removal of Financial Support” paragraph:

“The Village Church will make our decision on whether or not to reestablish support pending an ongoing conversation we’re attempting to have with Karen.”

The timeline would be very interesting because this seems to make her support contingent on her compliance with their demands for her to stay in the marriage or go through their procedure. Creepy.

@ Val:
Not being critical – I think any one can be a great preacher, but the only measuring stick the Gospel Coalition seems to use is $$ and followers. What about Piper’s heresy? Driscoll’s butchering of most of the gospel? His complete lack of Biblical knowledge, etc.? No one called him for that. People thought he was a great preacher because he said he was, no further investigation necessary. He plagiarized a lot, when he spoke I found hundreds of small inaccuracies, but even people who knew better shrugged and said “oh well”?

That wouldn’t fly in the UK. If you want power, you’ve got to prove yourself to a lot less approving audience. The US could use more UK hesitance at claims to greatness. Not going overboard and having no poor or less educated people move up the ranks, but it would do well to question authority more, without trashing it.

@ Val:

That makes sense. We do rather admire the rags to riches stories; born in a log cabin; pulled himself up by his own bootstraps; self-made man and all.

What also chills me is that I bet that TVC would have wanted Karen to stay married to a man who has paedophilic desires which he has acted on in his viewing, slept with him, treated him as her ‘head’ etc. Makes me shudder. Their conception of marriage really has no room in it for the welfare of both parties, particularly the woman. I am so proud of Karen for taking the actions she took – she was indeed duped into her vows by his false representation of himself & that annulment is well deserved. TVC would have kept her tied to a liar & paedophile to show the amazing gospelly glory of the trinity no doubt.
Karen, you are a star in so many ways.

Gram3 wrote:

refugee wrote:
@ Gram3:
I didn’t go back to look at the particulars, but what I remember reading might have been taken as leverage, as I recall.

In the third Scribd window there is a Feb. 20 email from Steve Hardin. Though the document seems to have a date in the upper left of 3/31/2015 so I’m not sure the timeline, but this is what Steve Hardin wrote about in the “Removal of Financial Support” paragraph:
“The Village Church will make our decision on whether or not to reestablish support pending an ongoing conversation we’re attempting to have with Karen.”
The timeline would be very interesting because this seems to make her support contingent on her compliance with their demands for her to stay in the marriage or go through their procedure. Creepy.

Ah, I must have missed that one in the reading. I read through the whole website in one sitting. The one I remembered must have come earlier, because I remember it being to Karen from one of the church people, assuring her of their support through August.

Unless I dreamed it somehow…?

@ Val:
I’m willing to bet that most of these so-called “colleges” would never pass an actual accretitation review here in the US, either, and that very few of them are accretited.

Just curious: have you ever lived in the US? Because some of what you say makes me feel,as if you aren’t as familiar with us as you might believe, though in saying that, i realise that this is true many times over re. typical views of Canada Down Here. (MAinly as some sort of ectrnsion of yhe US.)

@ Muff Potter:
Indeed.

@ Gram3:

Those are all good suggestions. I’ve tried different ways to cope or calm myself down if I’m upset. I like going on bike rides while listening to songs on an mp3 player, is one thing.

It would be nice to have a friend or two I could talk to in real life or on the phone who understandm who won’t judge, but everyone I’ve approached has blown me off, just quoted Bible verses at me, or shamed me and basically told me to forget about it and go volunteer at charities.

I’ve tried to find hobbies or things to deal with the sad feelings.

I appreciate your thoughts, thank you 🙂

refugee wrote:

The one I remembered must have come earlier, because I remember it being to Karen from one of the church people, assuring her of their support through August.

I think that reference to August came in the text messages from Steve Hardin which were at the very end, IIRC. So maybe somebody thought about the whole thing a little more and realized that the veiled threat (or what could be perceived as a veiled threat) was not a very good idea. That said, I may have totally mangled the timeline of events. This is so infuriating and utterly unbelievable. Except I totally know this is how these guys think!

@ Daisy:
I hope you find some comfort. I didn’t mean to suggest that what comforted me will comfort you. But what I can say is that you should not worry about what other people say you *should* do and just do whatever gives you some measure of healing and glimmers of joy. I hope that you will find a true friend who can walk with you through this.

Gram3 wrote:

Oh no no no no no. We gain a voice for our bitterness. We have a means to gossip and tear down God’s men.

Oh silly me…I completely overlooked our bitterness and gossip tendencies. And you are right…we are trying to usurp their authority. 🙁

This couple was missionaries in Asia, but there is also talk of a church in a very wealthy neighbourhood.
The kind of connection that rich churches tend to have to missionaries is financial: Rich Church say the couple are Rich Church’s missionaries, and pay them for working in Other Country, while a missionary organization that actually has experience of Other Country oversee the missionaries.

In this case, Karen and the missionary organization seem to have acted right, while I assume that it is the group that paid Karen (and her ex)’s salary that are all unhappy that she does not obey them. But no employer has the right to tell an employee to stay married to a criminal, which she married not knowing of his crime, which she probably have done youth work with while not knowing he also has other plans with the youth.

3
Muff Potter wrote:

Val wrote:

See, to the Brits, anyone can lead a ship of fools, but can you impress the intelligent and studied crowd?

You might wanna use more brushes to paint with than just that big broad one there Val. We Americans are not composed solely of the ignorant lot you allude to.

Even though we speak the same language there is a historical chasm in how we approach certain class distinctions that comes into play without often realizing it. Just one example of what I am referring to was when I was studying economic history it became obvious that a form of socialism was totally necessary in Britian to break the hold of the aristocracy. It had been long thought one was smarter, credentialed to govern others and had moral fiber if one were born into certain families. It took two world wars to wipe out that thinking. Still, we are assualted with William and Kate every time we go to the grocery check out line. You would think Americans would find that too ironic. :o)

And I speak as something of an Anglophile. I love the British and have dear friends there.

Val wrote:

That wouldn’t fly in the UK. If you want power, you’ve got to prove yourself to a lot less approving audience. The US could use more UK hesitance at claims to greatness. Not going overboard and having no poor or less educated people move up the ranks, but it would do well to question authority more, without trashing it.

One of the things that totally shocked me about SGM (and now Captiol Hill, ex Mars Hill, etc) were all the very educated people that got sucked in. I could not for the life of me figure it out. But I am educated and got sucked into the seeker mega movement years ago. (Of course, it was a source of income, too)

This blog helped me see a different view. How could PhD’s and others like them from SECULAR prestigious Universities get sucked into these groups? A very important reason IS upward mobility. Americans are extremely transient. They are apt to move far away from family for their careers. They might be really smart in physics or law but they get lonesome for community just like anyone else. And these groups are experts at love bombing and early acceptance. Going to church has, in the past, been a large part of our culture. So people move and look for a church or are open to visiting a church when invited. And they are targeted by these churches. They market just like any other consumer business.

This makes total sense and even I had not really connected those dots even though I was heavily involved in marketing demograhpics for seeker megas back in the 90’s. DUH. Church is much more of a business here than you might imagine.

Just because someone is very educated in certain areas does not mean they are not suseptible to those overtures. Especially when a lot of that marketing is directed at their kids having community.

Being educated does not necessarily correlate to being wise. Abraham Lincoln was wise but not credentialed because he was self educated. On the other hand, legend has it, Einstein had to paint his door red to find his house.

Lydia wrote:

This blog helped me see a different view. How could PhD’s and others like them from SECULAR prestigious Universities get sucked into these groups?

Another reason I have observed is elitism. If I think I am one of the elite, then I will associate with others who I perceive are elites and with those who affirm my belief that I am elite. Why do rich people listen to the Robert Morrises of this world? Because he tells them their riches are a result of God’s blessing them. The hook is that what Morris says is true in a sense, but Morris turns it into a transactional thing. But that appeals to the rich because it makes them into the elite which God has blessed.

I’ve seen hard science Ph.D./PhD people get sucked in because they believe they are among the elite thinkers and testers. So, the appeal to them is that the church is made up of deep thinkers who test the Scriptures. The trouble is that the Scriptures are *not* used to test the insider doctrines but only the outsider ones. However, someone who already thinks they are elite is affirmed in that belief. To test the system that affirms them is to put themselves on trial.

It’s pride, and appeals to pride can be very subtle while also being very effective.

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

I wonder if Chandler and his cronies have been taking notes from Hubbard and his lawyers…

They definitely have regarding Entheta, SPs, and Squirrels.

Val wrote:

See, to the Brits, anyone can lead a ship of fools, but can you impress the intelligent and studied crowd?

Have you factored in the “Intelligence 18, Wisdom 3” phenomenon?
As a former Kid Genius, I’m familiar with that one from both the outside and the inside.

Lydia wrote:

Being educated does not necessarily correlate to being wise. Abraham Lincoln was wise but not credentialed because he was self educated. On the other hand, legend has it, Einstein had to paint his door red to find his house.

That’s the true true* Lydia. I’ve seen a New Hampshire stone mason with an associates degree think rings around the chair of a world class university engineering department with his simple and yet elegant method of placing a 70 ton obelisk into position without modern technology.

*apologies for cribbing lines from David Mitchell’s Cloud Atlas

@ Gram3:
There is also an emotional high going when they decide to become members, tremendous pressure (like used car salesmen), the thought that the contract protects you from bad, etc… I experienced it firsthand and almost fell for it. There is one churchin College Station that wont even let you attend a Bible study without becoming a member first, even for college students. The pressure to join is ridiculous. It doesn’t surprise me at all that even “smart” people sign these membership contracts.

Mr.H wrote:

Is it just me, or does this appear to be the same Jordan Root from Dallas, Texas that was involved with a special organization dedicated to “…victims and survivors of child sex trafficking.”

https://twitter.com/belovedaughters

it appears to be his, i cant confirm that though. Very disturbing that a foreign missionary with a pedo porn addiction would be following all the national and global missions that help child sex victims, perhaps he did act out, as his wife was concerned about. what better place to abuse children than as a helper of children that have been abused. or he is so very very sick that the photos of abused sex trafficked girls turned him on. Matt Chandler gets part of the ‘wish i had a millstone around my neck while drowning in the sea’ prophecy in this case i believe, for aiding and allowing and protecting the abuser.

I am sick at this news, literally ill. How long will our children be raped while the nice men in power protect their rapists? How sickening! I have been off here for months to get away from all the evil men do in our churches. It is too much to fathom, praying for this brave woman as she stands up and gives them all the hell they deserve.

GC wrote:

I do think that most women who are outside the complementarian/patriarchal system would look at those emails and texts to Karen and recognize immediately that the writers had lost their minds.

I agree totally. Do you (or anyone else) know of women or men who are defending The Village elders? It is inconceivable to me that anyone would be so bold as to defend this. Silence or deflection I expect and have experienced. But I cannot see how this is defensible on moral, ethical, or Biblical grounds. Though I would love to see Jonathan Keys Leeman try.

As an aside, I have told a young woman about this situation, and she checked out Matt Chandler’s Youtube on God’s “beautiful design.” She said it was cringeworthy and gag-inducing along with some other things I will not repeat. And she is spreading the word to her Christian friends. This absolutely must stop. It is ungodly and shameful.

Christy, formerly mandy wrote:

There is one churchin College Station that wont even let you attend a Bible study without becoming a member first, even for college students. The pressure to join is ridiculous.

So glad you did not get trapped in that. I don’t think it is a coincidence that cults target college-age students. Idealism sometimes overcomes critical thinking, and we think that we will be the ones to make a difference in the world. I wish I still knew as much as I did when I was in college. I used to know pretty much everything.

Dee,

Wow, talk about straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Is this Karen Hinkley/Village Church story the upcoming famous church membership story you were talking about recently?

BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

Sorry. But, if I were Karen, I would tell The Village Church to bite me.

You & me both!

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Others have commented that the Texas legislature is very reluctant to interfere when Jeesus(TM) is invoked for justification. Closing ranks against Antichrist Secular Humanism and all that.

No. It’s “Jeezus(TM)” with a Z.

@ elastigirl:
I think I’ll compare the 2 letters side by side. Who knows– maybe both were really composed by the same ghost-writer!

GC wrote:

But I do think that most women who are outside the complementarian/patriarchal system would look at those emails and texts to Karen and recognize immediately that the writers had lost their minds.

That’s a very perceptive point, but let me take it a step further. Most of us are part of the christian or evangelical subculture, which in many ways is a different world where different rules apply, because of The Gospel ™. This can often blind us to crazy things that wouldn’t be tolerated elsewhere.

I have a friend who became a christian a few years ago from a totally non-christian background. She’s observed that, within evangelicalism, there are all sorts of weird and unbalanced people. She’d much rather hang out with her non-christian neighbours who she regards as far more normal than the christians!

Yes, obviously the gospel message is radical and revolutionary, but at the heart of it is love – the love of God to us, and the love we are to show to one another. And if all our faith and theology doesn’t lead us to love people more (or even just to treat them with basic human decency), there’s something very wrong.

Which East Asian country was it?

So here’s an updated letter from The Village Church slamming Ms. Hinkley. http://www.scribd.com/doc/266531116/The-Village-Church-email-on-5-23-15-to-covenant-members-about-Karen-Hinkley-and-Jordan-Root

There’s not much that kicks me over into anti-theist mode, but I’m sick of this crap. What a blight on humanity these people are.

I understand how this woman must feel, and I’m sad that she could not wait out the process she signed up for (which reveals her trauma). Unlike my situation at Pleasant Valley Bible in Camarillo CA, where I was asked to leave my church because I filed for divorce. I waited for the elders to approach my husband, who was having a 2 year affair with a married woman, and he refused pastoral counseling and chose to stay pursuing another man’s wife. Thankfully, the Lord led that assistant pastor out of the ministry, but the senior pastor never followed up with me (and this is a tiny church). It sounds like Pastor Matt was trying to work with her within the covenant process, but she wouldn’t have it. In a situation where there is trauma for the woman, it can be difficult for her unless she is supported WAY MORE than the victimizer.

And you know what, it appears that I was blessed that TVC revoked my membership before we left. It seems impossible to get out of voluntarily.

I forgot to post the links!
Gunn v. Church of Christ Collinsville
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?citeid=10494
Hancock v. COJCLDS
The case summary is not online, but I’m sure an attorney can get it via LEXIS/NEXIS