Is Christianity In Decline? Ed Stetzer Says NO!

"Evangelical Christianity is growing in America. From 2007 to 2014 the number of evangelicals in America rose from 59.8 million to 62.2 million, according to Pew."

Ed Stetzer

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Pew Research Center recently conducted a survey to assess America's Changing Religious Landscape.  In its initial report (with more to follow), Pew Research provided the following assessment:

The Christian share of the U.S. population is declining, while the number of U.S. adults who do not identify with any organized religion is growing, according to an extensive new survey by the Pew Research Center. Moreover, these changes are taking place across the religious landscape, affecting all regions of the country and many demographic groups. While the drop in Christian affiliation is particularly pronounced among young adults, it is occurring among Americans of all ages. The same trends are seen among whites, blacks and Latinos; among both college graduates and adults with only a high school education; and among women as well as men.

You can explore the data on your own using the Pew Research Center's interactive database tool.

In short order, Ed Stetzer, Executive Director of LifeWay Research, contested Pew Research's findings.  In an article just published in USA TodaySurvey fail – Christianity isn't dying: Ed Stetzer —  Stetzer writes:

A new Pew Research Center survey found the Christian share of the American population declined almost 8 percentage points from 2007 to 2014. Drawing from this point, many continued their breathless claims that the Christian sky is falling.

Rather than predict the impending doom of the church in America, this latest study affirms what many researchers have said before. Christianity isn't collapsing; it's being clarified. Churches aren't emptying; rather, those who were Christian in name only are now categorically identifying their lack of Christian conviction and engagement.

Perhaps Stetzer was trying to deflect from the subtitle of the Pew Research report, which states:  Christians Decline Sharply as Share of Population; Unaffiliated and Other Faiths Continue to Grow.

Ed Stetzer when on to explain:

Gallup recently found that weekly religious attendance as a percentage of the U.S. population is about where it was in the 1940s — hardly a statistical collapse.

If you click on the above link, you will see why Stetzer did not call attention to the significant decline in weekly religious attendance from the 1950s until now.  According to the graph, there has been at least a 10 percent decline, and we contend that it won't improve any time soon, especially when one takes into consideration the serious problems with churches that we discuss here at TWW.

Stetzer then goes on to boast that the number of evangelicals has actually increased (see below):

the percentage of U.S. adults who self-identify as evangelical or born-again rose from 34 to 35% over the same period of time. Don't miss that: More than one-third of Americans call themselves evangelical.

We believe this claim is misleading.  Why?  We contend that the slight increase is due in part to mainline Christians moving over to the evangelical camp. 

Stetzer concludes with this belief:

Nominal Christians are becoming the nones and convictional Christians remain committed. It is fair to say we are now experiencing a collapse, but it's not of Christianity. Instead, the free fall we find is within nominalism.

That's the real story of this data and one that needs to be told. The nominals are becoming the nones.

We couldn't disagree more with Stetzer's assessment.  We have heard from a lot of 'nones' here at TWW, and they are NOT nominal Christians.  Some of them have been disenfranchised from their churches due to no fault of their own.  Their Christian convictions remain intact; yet for one reason or another their leaders have failed them.  It's interesting that Stetzer sidesteps serious problems within Christianity.  He and many other Christian leaders continue to ignore the elephants in the room.  However, we WILL NOT.  We will continue to focus on the problems that we believe are causing a decline in Christianity (as pointed out by the Pew report).

Getting back to the findings of Pew Research, here are some of the observations they made:

Factors Behind the Changes in Americans’ Religious Identification

One of the most important factors in the declining share of Christians and the growth of the “nones” is generational replacement. As the Millennial generation enters adulthood, its members display much lower levels of religious affiliation, including less connection with Christian churches, than older generations. Fully 36% of young Millennials (those between the ages of 18 and 24) are religiously unaffiliated, as are 34% of older Millennials (ages 25-33). And fewer than six-in-ten Millennials identify with any branch of Christianity, compared with seven-in-ten or more among older generations, including Baby Boomers and Gen-Xers.

*********

The Christian share of the population is declining and the religiously unaffiliated share is growing in all four major geographic regions of the country. Religious “nones” now constitute 19% of the adult population in the South (up from 13% in 2007), 22% of the population in the Midwest (up from 16%), 25% of the population in the Northeast (up from 16%) and 28% of the population in the West (up from 21%). In the West, the religiously unaffiliated are more numerous than Catholics (23%), evangelicals (22%) and every other religious group.

Also, we found these excerpts from the report interesting (although not surprising):

The percentage of college graduates who identify with Christianity has declined by nine percentage points since 2007 (from 73% to 64%). The Christian share of the population has declined by a similar amount among those with less than a college education (from 81% to 73%). Religious “nones” now constitute 24% of all college graduates (up from 17%) and 22% of those with less than a college degree (up from 16%).

More than a quarter of men (27%) now describe themselves as religiously unaffiliated, up from 20% in 2007. Fewer women are religious “nones,” but the religiously unaffiliated are growing among women at about the same rate as among men. Nearly one-in-five women (19%) now describe themselves as religiously unaffiliated, up from 13% in 2007.

While the mainline Protestant share of the population is significantly smaller today than it was in 2007, the evangelical Protestant share of the population has remained comparatively stable (ticking downward slightly from 26.3% to 25.4% of the population). As a result, evangelicals now constitute a clear majority (55%) of all U.S. Protestants. In 2007, roughly half of Protestants (51%) identified with evangelical churches.

Since 2007, the share of evangelical Protestants who identify with Baptist denominations has shrunk from 41% to 36%. Meanwhile, the share of evangelicals identifying with nondenominational churches has grown from 13% to 19%.

Getting back to Ed Stetzer, perhaps he wanted to present the trends he sees in a positive light since the Southern Baptist Convention will be convening for its Annual Meeting next month.  The SBC has continued to decline since the conservative takeover in 1979.  Maybe Stetzer believes the SBC has hit rock bottom and will begin growing again since the number of evangelicals has increased (as he pointed out). 

From our vantage point, we believe Christianity is in decline because of the serious problems we discuss here — arrogant church leadership, refusal to deal with child sex abuse in the church, patriarchal attitudes, marginalization of over half of church attendees (women), and the list goes on…

We believe that until church leaders step up to the plate and deal with these issues, Christianity will continue its downward spiral.

The Pew Research findings are quite extensive, and we would appreciate our readers sharing their take-away from the report.  What stood out to you and why?

Comments

Is Christianity In Decline? Ed Stetzer Says NO! — 218 Comments

  1. Deb wrote:

    @ Michaela: Congrats! Do I quality for the Bronze?

    Deb, you have placed twice in the race! You win in Bronze and Aluminum (4th place).

  2. Deb wrote:

    @ Michaela:

    Aluminum sounds interesting…

    Deb, I had to invent that category because Nick from across The Pond was winning all of the top slots and doing too much bragging, bless his little heart!

  3. Ed Stetzer said:

    “Rather than predict the impending doom of the church in America, this latest study affirms what many researchers have said before. Christianity isn’t collapsing; it’s being clarified. Churches aren’t emptying; rather, those who were Christian in name only are now categorically identifying their lack of Christian conviction and engagement.”

    and

    “Nominal Christians are becoming the nones and convictional Christians remain committed. It is fair to say we are now experiencing a collapse, but it’s not of Christianity. Instead, the free fall we find is within nominalism.

    “That’s the real story of this data and one that needs to be told. The nominals are becoming the nones.”

    What an arrogant and offensive response.

  4. Sadly, we are reaping what has been sown for the last few decades of entertainment-church. Folks have just grown tired of watching the show, like they do with TV series and band sounds. There is no societal pressure to keep attending, so why bother? Especially if you have had a bad experience.

    It started in youth groups that were full of hype and games and “great” music and then it rolled into the main auditorium. How I cringe when I hear a congregation applaud a worship band’s performance because that means both have failed. The congregation has just turned into a mere audience and the band has failed to lead people into worship. Clapping and cheering as a celebrating crowd is a good thing, but that’s not what is happening; they are clapping for the good show like they would at any live performance. I even attended a “service” where the audience applauded a person’s prayer.

    Lord, I hunger for real community instead of a show.

  5. @EricL,

    I hear your concerns. I think Gram3 gave some very wise counsel here to me (and others) about the mistakes we make when looking for a new church: We go to the opposite extreme and miss the danger signs in a new church. I went from a mega church (where I had been invited by a friend) to a small, seemingly friendly church. The small church was more much conservative than the mega church, but
    practiced authoritarian control over members’ lives, including excommunications and shunnings for the slightest of dissents with the pastors/elders.

    A godly, older doctor was ordered to be excommunicated/shunned for disagreeing privately with the pastors/elders about how they were leading the church and discussing the Scriptures with the pastors/elders. A godly Christian man from East India, who had been attending the church for six years and faithfully volunteered, was told by the pastors/elders he could no longer attend the church because he didn’t believe in signing membership covenants. I was excommunicated/shunned, after eight years, for opposing the pastors/elders putting their friend a convicted sex offender on Megan’s List into positions of trust and authority without telling the church’s members and parents.

  6. @ Michaela:
    I am so sorry you went through what you did, but I’m glad you stood your ground. You are right that unhealthy churches exist in all shapes and sizes.

    I long for a return to genuineness, mutual accountability, true community, lifting up the hurting and needy, integrity in leadership, honesty, and a preaching of the Gospel that truly frees people from their bonds and misconceptions to an understanding of God’s sacrificial love.

  7. __

    “There are unhealthy churches exist in all shapes and sizes.

    …May there be return to genuineness, mutual accountability, true community, lifting up the hurting and needy, integrity in leadership, honesty, and a preaching of the Gospel that truly frees people from their bonds and misconceptions to an understanding of God’s sacrificial love. ”

    Amen!

    Deb and Dee sincerely do care about people who have been ‘hurt’ by ‘abusive churches’ and ‘their ideologies’.

    …and it shows.

    Sopy

  8. @EricL,

    Thanks for your thoughtful response. I agree with you about the kind of church that you, I, and others would like to be a part of. It’s so hard to find.

  9. “Nominal Christians are becoming the nones and convictional Christians remain committed. It is fair to say we are now experiencing a collapse, but it’s not of Christianity. Instead, the free fall we find is within nominalism….

    What an arrogant and offensive response.

    You are spot on! That’s why I like the term “Dones” (committed Christians who have had it with the serious problems in the church) as opposed to the term “Nones” (those who aren’t believers).

  10. It's hard to take what Ed Stetzer says seriously. Some of these individuals are just so out of touch and in their own bubble that they can't face reality.

  11. Since some of the institutional church is enamored with business models, and I should also add bad business models, it may be interesting to interject here Jim Collins, author of “Good to Great”. Collins also has a book “How the Mighty Fall”, in it he describes the failure of once successful ventures.

    The pattern Collins describes is when they hit a plateau, no more growth, it comes when there is poor communication at the top, a lack of listening in the boardroom and within management. The top dogs emphasize the positive, spin the ambiguous, and ignore or suppress the negative. They are oblivious to what is happening.

    The plateau occurs not because the organization doesn’t keep up with the times, i.e. is no longer relevant, but because they typically have abandoned the principles that created the success.

    I believe there are strong parallels. I wonder if they will follow the rest of the script? When decline is clear to all and can no longer be denied, a collapse comes not from failure to adapt but when the organization resorts to very risky strategies. Strategies even further removed from their roots. Could this be the culture wars and other similar variants that become a pitting them against us mentality? It is certainly far from what the true witness should be, love.

    Something to watch for.

  12. “From our vantage point, we believe Christianity is in decline because of the serious problems we discuss here — arrogant church leadership, refusal to deal with child sex abuse in the church, patriarchal attitudes, marginalization of over half of church attendees (women), and the list goes on…

    We believe that until church leaders step up to the plate and deal with these issues, Christianity will continue its downward spiral.”

    But will these leaders ever really change? Maybe it’s not about them changing, but about the line being drawn in the sand once and for all which will force Christians to decide which side we are on? What KIND of Christian do we want to be and what do we really want our faith – our relationship with Jesus – to produce in us? If the majority of these current Christian leaders are already on the other side of the line and refuse to change it’s because they ARE BENEFITING from their power and status – it’s working well for them to keep the gravy train flowing (all the way to the bank). (Gads, what part of pick up your cross and follow me don’t they understand? – Is carrying your cross just for the lay person, the tither, the little person? Why are THEY so special that the scriptures don’t apply to them too???) In our discussions we’ve wondered if this increasing exodus has been God ‘calling’ people out of the church as we’ve known it to do a new thing to get the true work of the Gospel done in order to produce LASTING life-long fruit in people who actually want to give their lives to God and walk with Him. The alternative is the giddy throng clamoring for another conference experience – the conference queen type not limited to the female gender. If there is to be a next move of God, what if it’s on a grass roots level and will have nothing to do with organized meetings where one charismatic man is the star, the evangelist of the hour. All this to say, if Christianity, as the world has grown to know it, is on the decline, then so be it. Maybe it’s time for us to let that ship sail – let our preconceived ideas go – go back to the white board and let God help us start anew. Perhaps the Lord wants to bring it all back to His original premise since we’ve obviously strayed from the truth much like the Israelites did in the OT. (“Nothing new under the sun” – “such is common to man” – we are no different than those who have gone before us.) It doesn’t matter whether the whole world is on board – God may just be reaching for humble caring servants who are willing to love the people He brings to them in the day-to-day-ness of life. In fact, if the world IS on board, isn’t that supposed to be a red flag? Yes the toothy grinned, finely groomed charismatic mega-church leaders who buy their way onto the NYTimes Bestseller List (unless your name is Joel Osteen, then you don’t even have to do that!) may have intimidating twitter webstagram numbers but what KIND of Christians are they turning out? Where will THEIR converts be in years to come? They seem to worship the Judah-Smith-Justin-Beiber pastor more than they worship Jesus from our point of view. If these converts are born into the hyped up drug induced experience of the throng, won’t they just thirst for celebrity, prosperity, and the next trend coming? How deep is that and what are they actually converting to? Bottom line: We can’t let the numbers and statistics intimidate us or fool us. I’m preaching to myself here – bcz it floors me at random times – dark night of the soul and all that. But then I remember (like Psalm 77 Remember) God has always been into the relationship aspect – the one on one. He cares deeply, from what I can tell, about lasting friendship – and I bet He’s not confined to the statistics or the trends. Anyhoo, this is what we’ve been mulling over, over and over, in our humble discussions.

  13. You guys write in the original post, “We couldn’t disagree more with Stetzer’s assessment. We have heard from a lot of ‘nones’ here at TWW, and they are NOT nominal Christians. Some of them have been disenfranchised from their churches due to no fault of their own. Their Christian convictions remain intact; yet for one reason or another their leaders have failed them. It’s interesting that Stetzer sidesteps serious problems within Christianity. He and many other Christian leaders continue to ignore the elephants in the room. However, we WILL NOT.”

    I’m in this category. I would be classified as a ‘none’ on these kinds of surveys, but I would also give broadly “evangelical” answers on a lot of these surveys. However, I haven’t been to church regularly in over three years–when I moved to Michigan, finding a church was too emotionally charged so I stopped looking. Between experiencing minor spiritual abuse and having serious issues with complementarianism and inerrancy, as well as watching the SGM and Mars Hill debacles, I basically just don’t trust church leadership.

    I want to say, though, Dee and Deb, that although I’m not a regular commenter (I think I’ve commented 4 or 5 times, and most of them were on the translation thread a couple of weeks ago), I am a regular reader, and this blog gives me hope. It helped me feel less alone when I was deconstructing things a couple of years ago, and now it makes me think that I might be able to find my way back to more engagement in the future. So, thanks for this labor of love.

  14. Except that for at least three of the issues you ID –  arrogant church leadership, patriarchal attitudes, and marginalization of over half of church attendees (women) – mainline denominations are supposedly doing better and yet having a worse decline.

  15. I guess I read Stetzer more charitably than you did. (Though you’re probably more familiar with his publishing history than I am.) He is (broadly) correct that there is less societal pressure today to identify as Christian. I also wouldn’t equate the terms “declining” and “dying.” “Declining” implies any consistent downward trend of any size. “Dying” implies consistent rapid decline until you are a tiny group on the verge of extinction. If Christians are still ~70% of the population, Christianity is in no way “dying.” It’s declining, but you’d still have to replicate that 8% drop for at least 25 more years before Christians even fell below 50% the population.

    I guess I can’t get as excited about the church attendance statistics as you do, either. The 1950s seem to have a lot of historically freakish statistics – for instance, female age at first marriage falling to 19-20. This was historically extremely weird (usually it’s been somewhere in range of 22-23) and the result of the postwar economic boom. However, that doesn’t stop people from latching onto that and going ERMAGEHRD KIDS TODAY ARE SO SELFISH THEY WON’T GET MARRIED AT 19!!! – when really it was 1950s that were the aberration. So I have to ask, are the 1950s really the baseline against which we measure declines in church attendance? Purely on numbers, Stetzer’s right that we’re at about the same percentage as the 1940s – actually we’re about 2% higher. So I’d have to see the numbers from earlier decades not on that chart, to put either of those statistics in perspective.

    Are you sure there’s no way for the survey to measure if there are disenfranchised Christians among the nones? If you look at the internal breakdown of “unaffiliated,” the total number is 22.8%. 7.1 of that is atheists/agnostics, 15.8 are nothing in particular who say religion isn’t important to them, and 6.9 are nothing in particular who say religion is important. Maybe the disenfranchised Christians are in the 6.9%?

    Also, 6.9 is just under a third of the nones. That makes them a significant minority, but still a minority. So I don’t think we can conclude from the data that disenfranchised Christians are the majority of the nones (assuming for a moment that all of that 6.9% means Christianity when they say “religion,” which is probably not true). That doesn’t mean they’re not there. They’re just not the majority, at least not in this sample. And just because they’re not the majority doesn’t mean sites like TWW aren’t providing a valuable service.

    All that being said, yes, Stetzer’s focus on raw numerical growth as opposed to percentage decline is bit misleading; he has a bit of the usual evangelical mix of pity and disdain toward mainliners, which was annoying; and this survey data gives us no way to measure the extent of problems within the evangelical church. But then again, that wasn’t the survey’s point. So I guess I can’t read Stetzer as part of a deliberate attempt to cover up an abuse problem, unless he has a publishing history of denying/covering up abuse (which I don’t know).

  16. Megan wrote:

    I am a regular reader, and this blog gives me hope. It helped me feel less alone when I was deconstructing things a couple of years ago, and now it makes me think that I might be able to find my way back to more engagement in the future. So, thanks for this labor of love.

    You are the reason we write. Thank you for sticking around.

  17. nkelly wrote:

    What KIND of Christian do we want to be and what do we really want our faith – our relationship with Jesus – to produce in us?… (Gads, what part of pick up your cross and follow me do they not understand?)

    For many in the churches criticized here, Christianity is meant to transmit and defend eternal, transcendent mores and gender roles. In that context, “taking up your cross” is defending those principles against opposition from atheists and compromisers.

  18. jamie wrote:

    Except that for at least three of the issues you ID –  arrogant church leadership, patriarchal attitudes, and marginalization of over half of church attendees (women) – mainline denominations are supposedly doing better and yet having a worse decline.

    Mainline-ism had a different set of potential problems, in my limited experience of mainline-ism. Mainline christianity can sometimes be about as exciting and nourishing and inspiring as water poured on corn flakes for breakfast. Meanwhile down the road at evang mega you can get entertainment, the culture war and all the 7/11 songs you can stomach with nary a challenge that when you decide to be a “real” countercultural christian it is specifically some things in the evangelical culture to which you should be counter. Join the parade religion can be fun-until it’s not fun any more.

  19. @ Hester:
    Hester, I agree with your assessment. There are multiple reasons that people have unaffiliated. Abuse and marginalization is certainly one issue; reduced stigma about identifying as a “none” is another. I meet a huge number of people who say they don’t have problems with God, just with the institutionalized church.

    BTW, Jonathan Merritt quotes Pew Research Center staff are saying there are as many or more Evangelicals today than there were in 2007.

    http://jonathanmerritt.religionnews.com/2015/05/13/the-importance-of-doing-your-homework/

  20. If there are more Evangelicals today than there were in 2007, then why is there such a huge outcry that young people are leaving the church in droves?

    Just sayin'. 😉

  21. @ Bill M:
    Collins’ book was practically required reading for many seeker mega church staffers years back. I came from the corp training world and will say my opinion is that applying those models to the Body as we did from Drucker, Blanchard, Buford and many other leadership gurus WAS the problem.

    Those models simply do not map to the Body of Christ.

  22. I do not doubt that some people leave ‘church” because they are nominal. But! I looked up the definition of nominal and found the following: (1) existing in name only (2) very small; far below the real value or cost.

    Based on those definitions I believe the church is indeed in decline in quality as exemplified by some of the things that are taught and practiced and tolerated in some churches today. Some churches themselves are nominal, and some people who participate compulsively are also nominal if evaluated by the NT picture of church and of discipleship. So, yes, I agree that we are in the midst of a great epidemic of decline. When the culture wars are more important than the gospel, that is nominal at work. Whey busy work becomes the identifier of who gets to claim to be holier than the rest, that is nominal. When spiritual and educational adolescence carries over into young adult years and then the one suffering from this growth retardation is proclaimed an elder, that is a textbook case of nominal.

  23. Dear Mr. Stetzer:

    I don't know you and am both uninterested and disinterested in assigning motives or evaluating the reasons behind your article as highlighted here. However, I make a (very good) living doing statistical modeling, trend analysis, and design of experiments, and I am frankly baffled by the conclusions you came to. The bottom line is that the data does not support your conclusions. Please ask someone who understands data and modeling to re-evaluate the data and present you with a few realistic options for understanding the data.

    Sincerely,

    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist

  24. @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

    Thank you!

    Let us also not forget Setzer’s bonafides. He is the church planting expert for Lifeway. And he has planted how many churches that failed? Is it three or four? I lost count. The last one he planted it was made clear he would only preach. They were to only be graced with his very important words from stage. No hospital visits, no funerals, etc, etc.

    Perhaps his views are based upon his experiences in church planting?

  25. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Dear Mr. Stetzer:

    I don’t know you, and am both uninterested and disinterested in assigning motives or evaluating the reasons behind your article as highlighted here. However, I make a (very good) living doing statistical modeling, trend analysis, and design of experiments, and I am frankly baffled by the conclusions you came to. The bottom line is that the data does not support your conclusions. Please ask someone who understands data and modeling to re-evaluate the data and present you with a few realistic options for understanding the data.

    Sincerely,

    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist

    Dr. Fundystan,
    The handling of data and statistics as you mention would require hard work, attention to detail and honest, simple representation of the major trends. It appears that Mr. Stetzer is interested in none of those. Also, I laugh every time you post.

  26. @ Deb:
    Having had time to look at the Pew study, it seems to me that it surveyed the belief system one identifies with, without going further into active participation in a local “church” group. Many identified with born again evangelical, and then further, say with Baptist. The Unaffiliated, Nones, in the study seem to be about belief, not attendance. That is the Nones are not like the None and Done who comment on this blog. None in the survey, was no identification with a belief system.

    I know many young evangelical Christians, who identify with The Church – with The Christ, who believe that not being a regular member identifying with a local building
    and giving money to a particular preacher actually enhances their faith walk. They have experienced the detrimental impact to Christian faith that can come from egotistical, corporate “a local church” organizations.

    They, like me, would identify with evangelical Christianity, all the while leaving what is so called “the church” in droves. Actually, many cycled among the various denominations that have built “churches” in the area, and found that most now are controlled by the corporate enterprise model (Warren Purpose Driven; Waggoner New Apostolic; AOG morphed into ARC; PCA heirarchy; and such). They witness to and declare their evangelical Christian faith. However, when asked the misplaced question, “Where do you go to ‘church'”, the answer is, right now None, and Done.

  27.   __

    “Disenfranchised?”

    hmmm…

    Our Christian convictions remain intact; yet for one reason or another 501(c)3 “church” leaders have scared the bejebers out of us and our kids.

    (and for good reason)

    CHURCH (TM) is no no longer SAFE

    Check this out…

    ‘Church’ management tote security guyz dat carry loaded guns, yet our children are being sexually violated in same church buildings and church facilities, and church activities, and ‘leadership’ folks continually cover it up, and cover for each other…

    yuck.

    Church is a wonderful plaze?

    Think again.

    Sopy

  28. This site is a lifesaver. When I quit church after 50 years of attendance, I figured something was totally broken in me. I still love God and crave a relationship with Jesus, but “church” just started feeling like a drug which brought a high on Sunday and a crash on Monday. Some churches felt like social clubs. Others were obviously catering to those who had money, power and cache. Since coming here and also Julie Ann’s site, I feel I am not alone. Now I know that no matter where I am on Sunday that God still loves me.

  29. This report has been making the rounds everywhere in the atheist community as well. For us this is huge news. @ Hester: I agree with you on the decline not being that big of an actual thing. Going from 4/5ths majority to 2/3rds is still a darn big majority (or whatever the actual percentages are, I just eyeballed it). I wonder how many move out of any camp whatsoever and just move on to being aptheists on their way to nones?

  30.   __

    “Religious 501(c)3 Cancer (TM) Statistics?”

    hmmm…

    …the closing of YET another 501(c)3 ‘church’ franchise doesn’t get these PRO-FESS-ION-ALS attention?

    hahahahahahaha

    🙂

  31. @ nkelly:

    “All this to say, if Christianity, as the world has grown to know it, is on the decline, then so be it. Maybe it’s time for us to let that ship sail – let our preconceived ideas go – go back to the white board and let God help us start anew.”

    “It doesn’t matter whether the whole world is on board – God may just be reaching for humble caring servants who are willing to love the people He brings to them in the day-to-day-ness of life.”

    “But then I remember (like Psalm 77 Remember) God has always been into the relationship aspect – the one on one. He cares deeply, from what I can tell, about lasting friendship – and I bet He’s not confined to the statistics or the trends.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    yes and amen.
    ———–

    “….this is what we’ve been mulling over, over and over,”
    +++++++++++++

    me, too.

  32. @ Ed:

    “I know many young evangelical Christians, who identify with The Church – with The Christ, who believe that not being a regular member identifying with a local building and giving money to a particular preacher actually enhances their faith walk.”
    ++++++++++

    this has been my experience, in a big way.
    ———-

    “They have experienced the detrimental impact to Christian faith that can come from egotistical, corporate “a local church” organizations.”
    ++++++++++

    “egotistical” isn’t necessarily a part of it. my most recent church experience was with leaders who were very humble and true servants. I love them. I miss them.

    my experience in not going has shown me the huge amount of time and energy it required — and 10 minutes after it’s concluded, i couldn’t tell you what in the world the sermon was about. Sunday morning, 8:30-1:00, including transit time, for it all. And when we return home, we’re exhausted.

    and I think…. what was the point of that?

    i find churches (even the best of churches with the best people) are hungry machines that eat up lots of time, money, and human energy. in the seasons when I’ve not gone (such as now), i find myself being so productive in ways that are much more meaningful & relevant. And i can do it extremely efficiently.

  33. @ Ann:

    “Now I know that no matter where I am on Sunday that God still loves me.”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    and is as present & available as ever. as it turns out, His address isn’t the church facility.

  34. @ Ann:
    Ha! My friend calls it meth high! I can relate to wondering if something was broken. I felt this way too at first. It’s like swimming upstream against the flow. But when I’d go back to church out of obligation every once in awhile, I’d remember why I’d wanted to stay home. Not that the people in church 2 weren’t good people, but it was like the connection was missing – mutually. I don’t think there was supposed to be a connection now. Actually it felt good to be anonymous after not being that for so many years. And it made it easier to leave when the time came, knowing it really was the direction the Lord was leading. Not that it has been easy to be outside the walls. In the past sharing the Lord with people always included taking them to church – get them in the Ark as Pastor #1 used to say. We don’t think it would be healthy to send anyone into something that is only going to hurt them in the long run. Trusting that we will have something ready for our children, let alone others, we are only now beginning to meet weekly with our friends to try out The Story bible study which seems like it will be a good way to give an overview of the bible story – it’s in chronological order – for those who want to know. And it will be good for us to start at square one. It never hurts to go back to the beginning.

  35. One takeaway from the report: a 10 percent decline (78 to 70 percent) over a seven year period is pretty spectacular.

    One comment from Ed Stetzer’s protesting: Gallup surveys of church attendance are simply worthless. They reflect aspirational behavior, not actual behavior. In other words, people lie when they’re asked about things like church attendance. (Seriously, I think Gallup polling is worthless in some areas. This is one of them. Another is this Gallup poll we have to take every year at work and it’s pretty close to a timewasting exercise as far as I am concerned.)

    Keep in mind that it’s difficult to assess church/religious attendance to start out with because different organizations count attendance differently and not everyone goes to a big ole mega where it’s easier to count bodies in seats. However, I’m familiar with two older studies–one was an actual attempt to count bodies in seats in one U.S. county on a Sunday and the other was a review of diaries required to be kept by nuclear workers of their activities. Both ascertained that church attendance was 20 percent of the population sample (i.e., 20 percent of the county surveyed went to church, 20 percent of the nuclear workers in that period went to church). This, by the way, is still a much higher percentage than most of Western Europe (where attendance is in the single digits).

    I did think Stetzer’s protesting was interesting in one way. A lot of the articles about the spectacular drop in identification had a whiff of moral panic about them. But Stetzer wasn’t going there. I wonder why?

  36. ” It never hurts to go back to the beginning.” – nkelly

    hmmm…

    in the beginnng…

    GOD?

    🙂

  37. elastigirl wrote:

    i find churches (even the best of churches with the best people) are hungry machines that eat up lots of time, money, and human energy. in the seasons when I’ve not gone (such as now), i find myself being so productive in ways that are much more meaningful & relevant. And i can do it extremely efficiently.

    This is what we came to, too.

  38. I’d like Ed Stetzer to explain why Large Baptist Church of Mesa gave up its 17 acre campus and moved into a storefront a half-mile away, and why Large Assemblies of God Church of Mesa basically folded up and is currently leasing its property to an upstart church. Something is going on here but Ed’s not seeing it.

  39. @ Sopwith:
    Lol funny! 🙂
    My husband was just saying yesterday the surveys’ statistics need to include more of the Nones who have left bcz of what they – we – have seen that doesn’t add up scripturally and ethically. We aren’t leaving the faith or Christianity, we are just leaving the building(s).

  40. elastigirl wrote:

    and is as present & available as ever. as it turns out, His address isn’t the church facility.

    haha…funny how we sometimes think we’re going to church to “visit” God.

  41. Sorry to keep commenting, but I also have to wonder how much of the decline has its roots in the Great Recession? Churches hammering for tithing in a time when there’s a lot of under/unemployment can put a bad taste in people’s mouths.

  42. @ Eeyore:
    Lest you mistake my meaning, I’m just posing the question – what if God is calling some of us out of a system that has become toxic to the point we can no longer support it. Each person has his own path to walk whether that be in the organized church or outside it. None of us has been given the role of judge in the matter – so when I think of my brothers and sisters inside the church I can’t criticize that they are still in there (even though I know for a fact that many of them judge us for leaving – lol). I can only try to figure out why some of us are out here. Having never been this way before, who am I to really know what’s going on? But talking about it helps us process what has happened to us. One thing we do know, we want to stay to true what the bible tells us – but even that can be subjective. Guess it’s called a faith walk for a reason! 🙂

  43. XianJaneway wrote:

    @ Bill M:
    Whoa!!! I need to read that book!

    Its an easy read. I read it over a couple years ago and found it applicable to leadership of the former church I attended. And that was when I was still part of the “leadership”, I now recoil from the word.

    Can I coin servantship?

    In any event I look at the presentations in these books as about organizations, not just business, non-profit, or church. A problem I’ve found is the CEO who is the visionary, all things flow from him, command/control model works poorly in almost any organization. To try to use that model in a church results in disaster.

  44. mirele wrote:

    but I also have to wonder how much of the decline has its roots in the Great Recession?

    Good point, mirele! And no doubt there’s no shortage of guilt reverberations implied from the pulpit.

  45. This year, Sunday morning attendance at the conservative evangelical Baptist church that I attend is 25% down from what it was five years ago. This is from an actual count of rears in seats on Sunday morning. We’re one of the larger, although not the largest, churches in our small (under 10,000 population) midwestern town. At under 200 in attendance on Sunday morning, we’re not a megachurch, and arguably none of the other churches in this town would be considered megas, either. That’s just one anecdote from the trenches…

  46. In the last few months I’ve read a number of books on nones, organic church, or various flavors. Authors such as Frank Viola and Wayne Jacobsen and some others I don’t remember, I’ve now embarked on looking around the web.

    I recently ran across a couple sites that are picking up on the phenomenon. But, they are organizing summits and conferences and doing all thing things I’ve grown to dislike. Register early! Only $295!! The speakers fit the description of the glitterati that appear before conventions that often come under criticism here at TWW. Authors extolling their published books, books sales, pastors, academics. Not that they are bad in and of themselves but I question the reliability if it all comes from one direction, down. How is this organic? Sturgis may offer a better model than these top down conferences. No, I don’t ride but I know a few who do.

    I’m keeping my skepticism intact. So far the whole thing is a confused morass, but that may be a good thing.

  47. I have seen a few articles quoting different Christians about this Pew information (one said that Pew will be releasing another study later this year that analyzes just how many actual Christians are leaving churches and why, and they will address some of the other questions we have).

    In one article, Russell Moore (I think it was Moore) was saying how great this Pew study is, because at last!

    At last!, those stinky, horrible, nominal, wishy-washy, fake, lame, loser Christians are finally leaving churches to the real, shiny, high class, serious, awesome Christians, the ones who Jesus loves the best.

    That’s how he’s pitching this, and he’s celebrating it. It sounds like an arrogant way of framing the situation.

    I’ve seen one or two other big name Christians make that same argument.

    I think churches are losing actual Christians, not just fakes or marginals. They don’t seem interested in fixing what is driving the real ones away.

    The seeker friendlies try to attract new people (they don’t seem to care about holding on to people they already have) by putting coffee stores in their churches, and rock band shows during worship services. That doesn’t work to keep people.

    Being authoritarian and making many demands of people’s time and behavior doesn’t seem to keep people i church, which is contrary to what other articles I’ve read declare.

    I’ve seen it brought up in several of these articles (if I am remembering correctly) that Baptists (I think Southern Baptists?) in particular are having problems, they are losing more people more quickly than other groups.

  48. mirele wrote:

    Churches hammering for tithing in a time when there’s a lot of under/unemployment can put a bad taste in people’s mouths.

    And you gotta love how preachers, such as Robert Morris, tell people if you don’t tithe, God will permit disease, divorce, demon possession, or what have you, into your life.

    Because God is a mafia don who’s into extortion.

    God doesn’t care if the economy is terrible and you were laid off, you are supposed to sacrificially give, so the preacher can get another BMW or jet. 😆

  49. @ (Done) Just Watching:

    Totally agreed! Stetzer is arrogant. You know what I find laughable is his take on the nones when you have individuals like CJ Mahaney or Mark Driscoll involved in the church. So let me get this straight…. a person who pushed away from church due to preserve their faith is not a true Christian, yet CJ Mahaney and Mark Driscoll who are “Gospel Centered Wimps” in how they fled and still flee from their messes are fine because they are deeply involved in the church. What an arrogant piece of , well use your imagination!

  50. nkelly wrote:

    Lest you mistake my meaning, I’m just posing the question – what if God is calling some of us out of a system that has become toxic to the point we can no longer support it.

    Some big name Christians are trying to paint it as being the opposite: the fake, horrible Christians are the ones who are leaving, and the ones staying are the godly, committed ones who are serious about serving God.

  51. @ Albuquerque:

    Going from 4/5ths majority to 2/3rds is still a darn big majority (or whatever the actual percentages are, I just eyeballed it).

    Yeah. I mean, in some ways I guess this is a milestone because Christians have finally fallen below a supermajority (75%). But it’s hardly the “death” of Christianity in America. Christians are still by far the majority.

  52. At last!, those stinky, horrible, nominal, wishy-washy, fake, lame, loser Christians are finally leaving churches to the real, shiny, high class, serious, awesome Christians, the ones who Jesus loves the best.

    And Stetzer’s article will be used to say that “See? Those mainliners were nominal fakers all along, unlike us awesome convictional evangelicals!” – whether he intended it that way or not, or whether the data supports it or not.

  53. A quick note from D on the road.

    Ed Stetzer is deliberately overlooking the dirty little secret of the SBC. He along with Russell Moore and Al Mohler know that the actual numbers of people who.
    are members in the S BC are nowhere near the 16 million they claim.

    Most everyone including Stetzer would agree that the real numbers are somewhere in the vicinity of 7 to 8,000,000

    If they are willing to conceal these numbers imagine what they are doing with the statistics.

  54. Can’t remember where I heard about this, but its a book that describes research into the Nones. Not opinion, real research. The short version is what we all suspect, that the Nones aren’t nominals that dropped off the back row, but the most spiritual who just couldn’t handle what we’ve made “church” into. Wait, here is the interview.

    https://youtu.be/nZICtBMBKAI

    And here’s the book that is coming out.
    http://www.amazon.com/Church-Refugees-Sociologists-reveal-people/dp/1470725924

  55. Daisy wrote:

    The seeker friendlies try to attract new people (they don’t seem to care about holding on to people they already have) by putting coffee stores in their churches, and rock band shows during worship services. That doesn’t work to keep people.

    Being authoritarian and making many demands of people’s time and behavior doesn’t seem to keep people

    Just in case anyone thinks trying both at the same time is the ticket. I have the t-shirt, not going back there either.

  56. Here is a link to a good article from a couple of years ago on studies regarding actual church attendance.

    http://www.churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-articles/139575-7-startling-facts-an-up-close-look-at-church-attendance-in-america.html

    In the Pew Report, None refers to no identification with a belief system. Here, nones are those who are Christians, who are not regularly attending at a particular place. The Pew report includes such persons as Affiliated with Christian. This Pew report breaks down beliefs, not participation in attending a place. I think I am reasonable in believing that Stezer knows the attendance/participation/funding is declining, and is declining with younger persons more than older persons.

    By the way, Stezer is quoted in the article in the link provided above. One thing attributed to him is that he, “found that a growing number of people are finding Christian discipleship and community in places other than their local churches.”

  57. Your headline is misleading. I don’t see Stetzer anywhere in his article saying Christianity is not in decline. He says just the opposite. From the USA Today article, “If evangelical Christianity is growing, or at the very least remaining steady, why is Christianity as a whole shrinking and why are those who claim no religious affiliation increasing at such a rapid rate?” Stetzer concludes that much of the decline is a “nominals to nones” shift. You conclude disillusionment because of scandals to be a significant issue. As to whether your reasons for the decline or his are on target, I don’t have any real data on that so I am going to withhold judgment of either view. There is decline, evangelicalism is holding its own percentagewise but is still sliding relative to population growth.

    The key word in the quote under your headline is “evangelical.” Stetzer says evangelical Christianity is growing and he is right (percentage growth). But he didn’t deny anywhere in the article that Christianity is in decline.

  58. Dee wrote:

    A quick note from D on the road.

    Ed Stetzer is deliberately overlooking the dirty little secret of the SBC. He along with Russell Moore and Al Mohler know that the actual numbers of people who.
    are members in the S BC are nowhere near the 16 million they claim.

    Most everyone including Stetzer would agree that the real numbers are somewhere in the vicinity of 7 to 8,000,000

    If they are willing to conceal these numbers imagine what they are doing with the statistics.

    It’s not a secret, many Baptist leaders talk about it, most pastors know it by experience and it has been like this for decades for a variety of reasons. I don’t see Mohler, et al, trumpeting the 16 million thing much and certainly no more than other SBC leaders but maybe you have info on this I don’t as you have done a lot of research.

    Addressing the disparity between membership and attendance is an emphasis 9Marks has had in some of their material. While I think the covenants and not letting people out of membership is wrongheaded at best and abusive at worst, I actually think, if done with grace, reaching out to those who have fallen through the cracks or drifted away can be a great opportunity to strengthen the church and help some who have a need. The SBC rolls probably need to shrink, but it is not going to happen in most churches because of the potential for conflict.

  59. @ Ed:
    In the article you posted they quote David Anderson, senior pastor and founder of Bridgeway Community Church in Columbia, Md about the lack of growth in mid-size churches.

    “You don”t have to grow anymore to sustain your budget.”

    What is wrong with this picture? Its about the budget?

  60. In large part I think Setzer has it perfectly inverted. He is a negative barometer for the truth.

    I believe the True Church is being pushed out of the institutional one. I believe real Christians are gradually, inevitably, being shown the door because they are typically the ones who object to the abuse of the superapostles openly or who simply can’t stomach the abuse, manipulation, control, domination, worship of “great” men and youtube gurus and see themselves out quietly.

    I really think that real Christians are starting to run and lay low, like Elijah did, and what is left are nominal Christians. And back in the days when I was young, it seemed that nominal Christians were easy to spot: they were the overtly liberal in doctrine, making the Bible just one long pious, easily laughed off myth. They were about the social club of church. But today, 30 years later, the ones who leap out to me more as the nominals are the ones who superficially parrot sound doctrine but in reality are about using that to draw the True Church in so they can abuse them, control them, and render them beaten and ineffective. People such as those who are powerbrokers in the SBC.

  61. (Done) Just Watching wrote:

    Ed Stetzer said:
    “Rather than predict the impending doom of the church in America, this latest study affirms what many researchers have said before. Christianity isn’t collapsing; it’s being clarified. Churches aren’t emptying; rather, those who were Christian in name only are now categorically identifying their lack of Christian conviction and engagement.”
    and
    “Nominal Christians are becoming the nones and convictional Christians remain committed. It is fair to say we are now experiencing a collapse, but it’s not of Christianity. Instead, the free fall we find is within nominalism.
    “That’s the real story of this data and one that needs to be told. The nominals are becoming the nones.”
    What an arrogant and offensive response.

    “I REJECT *YOUR* REALITY AND SUBSTITUTE MY OWN!”?

  62. Dee wrote:

    Ed Stetzer is deliberately overlooking the dirty little secret of the SBC. He along with Russell Moore and Al Mohler know that the actual numbers of people who.
    are members in the S BC are nowhere near the 16 million they claim.

    Once more, “Sounds like Scientology!”

  63. Hester wrote:

    @ Albuquerque:
    Going from 4/5ths majority to 2/3rds is still a darn big majority (or whatever the actual percentages are, I just eyeballed it).
    Yeah. I mean, in some ways I guess this is a milestone because Christians have finally fallen below a supermajority (75%). But it’s hardly the “death” of Christianity in America. Christians are still by far the majority.

    The pedant strikes again!

    In the U.S., a supermajority can either be 75% (as in the number of states needed to support a constitutional amendment or call a Constitutional Convention) or could also be 66.66 percent, the number needed in both houses of Congress to override a presidential veto or 60% (the number needed to invoke cloture and bring a filibuster to a halt in the senate) or 69.23% (the 9/13 states that were required to ratify the Constitution).

    By some of these measures, indeed (note stuffy pseudo-intellectual use of word “indeed”) those identifying as church-going Christians have dropped below a supermajority, though by most, we have not.

    I teach law, accounting and fraud for a living, moving into the teaching of taxation. It doesn’t get more priggishly pedantic than that.

  64. Daisy wrote:

    Some big name Christians are trying to paint it as being the opposite: the fake, horrible Christians are the ones who are leaving, and the ones staying are the godly, committed ones who are serious about serving God.

    aka
    “I THANK THEE, LOORD, THAT *I* AM NOTHING LIKE THAT FILTHY BACKSLIDER PUBLICAN OVER THERE…”

  65. Law Prof wrote:

    I believe the True Church is being pushed out of the institutional one. I believe real Christians are gradually, inevitably, being shown the door because they are typically the ones who object to the abuse of the superapostles openly or who simply can’t stomach the abuse, manipulation, control, domination, worship of “great” men and youtube gurus and see themselves out quietly.

    I saved this one in my notable quotes.
    In my case it was not so much as I was shown the door, pushed out, but shown that the door was a very viable path. The abuse was not overt such as sexual abuse but just a mundane day to day devaluing people. Good people were verbally attacked for little other than not fitting into the agenda. Many fled as refugees to other churches, some became dones, a few dropped their faith, and there appears to be no remorse by the leaders.

    I was not one who was so treated, at least not to my face, I left simply because I could not stomach what was being done. The last communication I received from one person was I bailed too soon, that they were turning it around. But their idea of turning it around was stopping the decline in numbers, not changing the behavior. They may well recover from the loss of 50% of the members and think it justification for all the blood spilled, till the next cycle when it happens again.

  66. Daisy wrote:

    And you gotta love how preachers, such as Robert Morris, tell people if you don’t tithe, God will permit disease, divorce, demon possession, or what have you, into your life.

    Because God is a mafia don who’s into extortion.

    Or Robert Morris is a Hexerai who’s into Extortion by Putting a Hex on you.

  67. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Dee wrote:

    Ed Stetzer is deliberately overlooking the dirty little secret of the SBC. He along with Russell Moore and Al Mohler know that the actual numbers of people who.
    are members in the S BC are nowhere near the 16 million they claim.

    Once more, “Sounds like Scientology!”

    I’ve noticed that Scientology is also decreasing. Two of their big stores in my area, in well-traveled areas with high visibility, have (thankfully) closed.

  68. Bill M wrote:

    I recently ran across a couple sites that are picking up on the phenomenon. But, they are organizing summits and conferences and doing all thing things I’ve grown to dislike. Register early! Only $295!!

    For $295 pre-reg, I could sign up for a WorldCon or a couple major regional SF cons or ComicCons and have some left over for a couple local Furry or Brony Cons. And the travel and hotel expenses would be similar both ways.

  69. mirele wrote:

    Sorry to keep commenting, but I also have to wonder how much of the decline has its roots in the Great Recession? Churches hammering for tithing in a time when there’s a lot of under/unemployment can put a bad taste in people’s mouths.

    But Pastor NEEDS that Furtick Mansion!

  70. Sopwith wrote:

    “Religious 501(c)3 Cancer (TM) Statistics?”

    hmmm…

    …the closing of YET another 501(c)3 ‘church’ franchise doesn’t get these PRO-FESS-ION-ALS attention?

    Tumors metastasize. Doesn’t matter if the initial tumor gets taken out if it’s metted into a dozen new tumors.

  71. Nancy wrote:

    Mainline christianity can sometimes be about as exciting and nourishing and inspiring as water poured on corn flakes for breakfast.

    Like local drive-time radio’s nickname for Bob Dole in 1996:
    “HE’S MISTER OATMEAL!”

  72. Bill M wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    I believe the True Church is being pushed out of the institutional one. I believe real Christians are gradually, inevitably, being shown the door because they are typically the ones who object to the abuse of the superapostles openly or who simply can’t stomach the abuse, manipulation, control, domination, worship of “great” men and youtube gurus and see themselves out quietly.
    I saved this one in my notable quotes.
    In my case it was not so much as I was shown the door, pushed out, but shown that the door was a very viable path. The abuse was not overt such as sexual abuse but just a mundane day to day devaluing people. Good people were verbally attacked for little other than not fitting into the agenda. Many fled as refugees to other churches, some became dones, a few dropped their faith, and there appears to be no remorse by the leaders.
    I was not one who was so treated, at least not to my face, I left simply because I could not stomach what was being done. The last communication I received from one person was I bailed too soon, that they were turning it around. But their idea of turning it around was stopping the decline in numbers, not changing the behavior. They may well recover from the loss of 50% of the members and think it justification for all the blood spilled, till the next cycle when it happens again.

    I believe we simply have to realize that in large part those drawn to leadership and those who fashion leadership into something completely divorced from any texture Jesus gave it are sociopaths and those with NPD, that many of them not only are wrong-headed but intentionally, maliciously wrong-headed and are primarily drawn to churches because they can do more damage to the children of the One whom they hate. Many of our leaders are superapostles and when you experience what they say and do you realize that Romans I was written with them in mind.

    It is unfortunate, but it is what it is, and God is protecting His Bride in many cases by leading her straight out the doors and away from people like Mohnler, Driscoll, Stretzer, Piper, Moore, Mahaney, et. al. And this is repeated thousands of times across the country with the pip squeak versions of those “luminaries”.

  73. __
    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Bill M wrote:
    I recently ran across a couple sites that are picking up on the phenomenon. But, they are organizing summits and conferences and doing all thing things I’ve grown to dislike. Register early! Only $295!!
    For $295 pre-reg, I could sign up for a WorldCon or a couple major regional SF cons or ComicCons and have some left over for a couple local Furry or Brony Cons. And the travel and hotel expenses would be similar both ways.

    HUG,

    Hey,

    Because of the genoriosity of the kind folk like da Deebs n’ of Wade Burlison’s Baptist church , we get church here @ TWW for free.

    Thanks folks’

    you are getting your money’s worth.

    ATB

    Sopy

  74. Bill M wrote:

    What is wrong with this picture? Its about the budget?

    Thank you for pointing that question out for consideration. One reason I posted the link is that there are many quoted in the article who reveal the legitimacy of concerns expressed by many on this site; those who have the impression that it is the true believers who are being pushed out of buildings being used for carnal pursuits.

    There is another group of quotes of a former Calvary Chapel leader, who is quoted towards the end of the article. The quotes follow the pattern of equating the preacher’s church to Jesus. The reasons why the person quoted is a former leader are sad, and follow the concerns that motivations are of a carnal source. If you sow to the Spirit, Life. If to the carnal, corruption. A warning to us all to heed.

  75. Former none here, fast tracking into membership in a Wesleyan denomination.

    Two thoughts: 1. Many nones are actually more involved Christians than many church goers. 2. At least in our area, our percentages drop even as our membership in many conservative churches is nearly double what it was just a couple of years ago. How can that be? Large number of immigrants who are not Christian.

    While I disagree with the conclusions Stetzer comes to, I agree many leaving are nominal Christians who were only there due to societal pressure. It is good for them to be seen for what they are and leave. I believe many leave because the church is the nominal Christians, and the leavers the true believers, also. And I believe percentage stats show ONLY a rise in non Christians rather than some sky is falling scenario.

  76. Michaela wrote:

    That’s why I like the term “Dones” (committed Christians who have had it with the serious problems in the church) as opposed to the term “Nones” (those who aren’t believers).

    Rats, then I’ve muddled up my nones and dones terminology – see also the question in “Open Discussion” recently.

  77. @ Ed:

    Whem reformed pastors such as Mark Driscoll can reduce women in the churches to ‘penis homes’ , the only place to go is up.

  78. Sopwith wrote:

    Because of the genoriosity of the kind folk like da Deebs n’ of Wade Burlison’s Baptist church , we get church here @ TWW for free.

    I’m so thankful for E-Church!

  79. Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    I was studying to be a parliamentarian at one time so I totally get you.

    I stand corrected. It does get more priggish and pedantic than a prof teaching law/accounting/fraud/taxation, and that is being a parliamentarian. Absolutely. I have sat through enough faculty meetings and heard the Robert’s Rules of Order bores go at it and take us late into the afternoon on those late Friday meetings that I think I might go completely berzerk the next time it happens.

  80. Ann wrote:

    This site is a lifesaver. When I quit church after 50 years of attendance, I figured something was totally broken in me. I still love God and crave a relationship with Jesus, but “church” just started feeling like a drug which brought a high on Sunday and a crash on Monday. Some churches felt like social clubs. Others were obviously catering to those who had money, power and cache.

    I share your pain.

  81. Ann wrote:

    Since coming here and also Julie Ann’s site, I feel I am not alone. Now I know that no matter where I am on Sunday that God still loves me.

    I am so glad that you can find support here. You are not alone. Most of us have been on there receiving end of the arrogant authoritarians. No matter how many rules they make, no matter how many theological construct they dream up, they are not the arbiters of who is faithful and who God loves.

    I came to faith as a teen when I began to contemplate that the God of created the billions of stars and galaxies, loved me as much as He loved anybody else. I felt his love from the start.

    No man, no doctrinal wizard and no authoritarian bully can tear God’s love for you away. The God of the universe, who created you, loves you so much-whether or not you attend church. You are not alone and you will never be alone.

    I hope I can meet you face to face one day and give you a hug. You bless me with your presence and your comments.

  82. Law Prof wrote:

    I teach law, accounting and fraud for a living, moving into the teaching of taxation. It doesn’t get more priggishly pedantic than that.

    My son is finishing his undergraduate accounting degree. That stuff is hard! Good night!

    I had to laugh at this part of your statement “I teach…fraud for a living.” I thought, “Now this is one class I have to attend!” 🙂

  83. Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    I was studying to be a parliamentarian at one time so I totally get you.

    Parliamentary procedure is a difficult thing to grasp.I was sent to a weekend course on the matter. I came to the conclusion I was not cut out to carefully follow rules.

    Some day I shall have to tell you the story of a man who wanted to get me thrown off a committee due to my writing on this blog. I offered to step down but the committee was against me doing so except for this man.

    He came running into the meeting with the humongous copy of Robert’s Rules of Order. However, the other members of the committee rebelled and basically called a vote. The whole time, while curled in a fetal position on the couch, I kept staring at that book, waiting for the shoe to drop. However, I am still serving on that committee and have made some new, best friends!

  84. Hi Megan and Ann,

    It’s great to have you both here and to join in on the discussions. No, you are not alone.

    Dee and Deb are The Best for starting and maintaining The Wartburg Watch, this labor of love for them and for us!

  85. What Law Prof and Bill M wrote matches our experience and perception. I do believe that people are being driven out of the churches who are very committed Christians and ones who have been very active ministering in many capacities, including the lowliest and the leadership positions.

    I wish I could remember who wrote that what is happening looks like Jesus’ words to the church at Ephesus, and the church has left its first love. Instead we love success or doctrine or entertainment.

    Someone else wrote recently that “shepherds” have forgotten that they are sheep, too, and that they are just as stinky as the rest of the sheep and just as prone to wander.

    The fact is that Stetzer and the other ones who are pulling down big bucks and not producing much of anything have a real interest in pretending that there is no such thing as committed “Dones.” I think they can point to data which supports their idea that we are nominal, but I agree with Nancy about what is really nominal. I think they are just fooling themselves and trying to fool everyone else. But the Lord of the Church is not fooled.

    Just want to say that this is a thread which should be read by every single honcho in the church. I do not expect that to happen because I don’t think they are particularly concerned about how they might have contributed to the decline.

  86. dee wrote (to Ann):

    I hope I can meet you face to face one day and give you a hug.

    Ditto! Dee and I would love to meet you Ann!

  87. (Done) Just Watching wrote:

    Ann wrote:

    This site is a lifesaver. When I quit church after 50 years of attendance, I figured something was totally broken in me. I still love God and crave a relationship with Jesus, but “church” just started feeling like a drug which brought a high on Sunday and a crash on Monday. Some churches felt like social clubs. Others were obviously catering to those who had money, power and cache.

    I share your pain.

    @(Done) Just Watching,

    Me three! It’s great to have you here commenting. Dee, Deb, and our regular posters from around the world have done wonders for my healing.

  88. dee wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    I teach law, accounting and fraud for a living, moving into the teaching of taxation. It doesn’t get more priggishly pedantic than that.
    My son is finishing his undergraduate accounting degree. That stuff is hard! Good night!
    I had to laugh at this part of your statement “I teach…fraud for a living.” I thought, “Now this is one class I have to attend!”

    dee wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    I teach law, accounting and fraud for a living, moving into the teaching of taxation. It doesn’t get more priggishly pedantic than that.
    My son is finishing his undergraduate accounting degree. That stuff is hard! Good night!
    I had to laugh at this part of your statement “I teach…fraud for a living.” I thought, “Now this is one class I have to attend!”

    Your son is a bright young man and a hard worker if he can run the gauntlet of Intermediate I, II, III and Taxation. After that it’s home free…until you get to the CPA exam, which they tell me is a cold bracing slap in the face (I only know through what the big boys and girls tell me, not a CPA yet, I passed the Bar and the CFE, still working towards the CPA).

  89. dee wrote:

    I had to laugh at this part of your statement “I teach…fraud for a living.” I thought, “Now this is one class I have to attend!”

    You’d be very welcome in class, you’d be welcome to guest lecture and talk about healthcare fraud if you wanted. I’m starting research on healthcare fraud, if you wish to collaborate you know where to find me. (by the way, I checked your bio, that son must have gotten some of his brains from his momma–I went to a good MBA program, you went to a great one).

  90. I would encourage people to browse through the Pew information and I’m eagerly awaiting the second report which should go into details on what people actually believe (from the 2007 report it turned out a fair number of self-described atheists believe in a personal god while a fair number of people in various religions don’t believe in god).

    So far the 2015 report broke down the ‘nones’ (22.8%) into atheists (3.1%), agnostics (4.0%), and nothing in particular and the last into those for whom religion was not important (8.8%) and those for whom religion was important (6.9%). In the south the numbers were 19% total with 7% being nothing in particular but religion important (6% nothing in particular and religion not important, 2% atheist, and 3% agnostic). The report proper on page 37 lists changes from childhood religion to current religion. 8.4% of those surveyed are former Evangelicals.

    For long term looking, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and unaffiliated have a large proportion of young adults while Evangelical and Mainline Protestants, Catholics, and Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t.

  91. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    For $295 pre-reg, I could sign up for a WorldCon or a couple major regional SF cons or ComicCons and have some left over for a couple local Furry or Brony Cons. And the travel and hotel expenses would be similar both ways.

    Sasquan (this year’s WorldCon) is $210. (Yes, I’m going.) And it will be A LOT MORE FUN than a bunch of preachers trying to convince themselves everything is just great and here’s the next big thing!

  92. I often heard at SBTS that if you went into a church as a pastor and started doing things the “Gospel (Neo-Calvinist) Way,” you could expect to lose some members. If you preached The Gospel, if you started requiring covenant membership, if you started “church discipline,” etc. They sometimes related it to when Jesus would say a hard parable and lose a large crowd, or the passage about “they were not all of us.”

    In hindsight, and in reading Stetzer, I see it now in pragmatic terms. They know not everyone will put up with a high level of control. They have decided high control will be prioritized over numbers, for their purposes.

    So the rhetoric of, “Fear not! Only the sucky ones have left!” is to reassure the share-holders…I mean donors, that they will get what they were promised, which I now think is political power in the form of money and loyal voters. It is also the beginning of love-bombing the remaining members into accepting the combination of flattery and high control now coming their way.

  93. Mother wrote:

    They sometimes related it to when Jesus would say a hard parable and lose a large crowd, or the passage about “they were not all of us.”

    This is really funny, because in my opinion the hard stuff Jesus said about being the last and the servant of all, not lording it over followers like the gentiles (who were likely using the First Century version of the same sort of worldly management and control techniques that they now use tithe money to fly out to conferences and learn) is the point at which they, the SBTS, neocal, prosperity gospel and similar types became the crowd that faded away.

    One has to very much wonder if they’re not the large crowd who decided it was just too tough to follow Jesus.

  94. Law Prof wrote:

    the point at which they, the SBTS, neocal, prosperity gospel and similar types became the crowd that faded away.

    Good insight, I wish they had enough self doubt or curiosity to consider this a possibility.

  95. Bill M wrote:

    Good insight, I wish they had enough self doubt or curiosity to consider this a possibility.

    Don’t hold your breath: “they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'”

  96. It has a strong draw for young people that grew up in lite evangelicalism. You feel like you are finally learning the hard stuff, finally doing Christianity the hard, authentic way. If we had found great success/money/affirmation in it, we might have stayed blind.

    Instead, we realized that the people riding the fast track to the top were the ones who were not all that nice to their peers. We also had some real sucker punch experiences with pastors and leaders that caused us to question if they were “teaching the right thing the wrong way” or just teaching the wrong thing, period.

    Coming out, re-evaluating, re-examining faith, losing financial security…all of that is painful and costly. I’m kind of grateful our experiences were so over the top, as it forced us to confront abuse and see it.

  97. @ Daisy:
    I guess we shall see who the true church is in the end won’t we. I have to say it’s a mutual distaste on either side of the line in the sand. Will the true Christlike Christian please stand up. Of course they are glad when people who dare to ask questions are gone – this way they are free to rule and reign without hindrance. This is an uncharitable statement and it is rather late at night so I am running low on grace and need to sleep – but I am perfectly happy leaving them to their own devices, to their toxic form of church and christianity. Actually I think they have hijacked the church – taken it over for their own interests. But in the end, what the enemy has meant for harm, the Lord of Resurrection will redeem. Some of them may even have an epiphany at some point and leave the kingdoms they’ve worked so hard to create. And we may feel like Jonah at first, but with the Lord’s help offer them refuge like others who have gone before us have offered us.

  98. Bill M wrote:

    In any event I look at the presentations in these books as about organizations, not just business, non-profit, or church. A problem I’ve found is the CEO who is the visionary, all things flow from him, command/control model works poorly in almost any organization. To try to use that model in a church results in disaster.

    Amen to that!

  99. Josh, Doctor of Pulchritudinousness wrote:

    Josh, Doctor of Pulchritudinousness

    Ok I HAD to look up that word out of curiosity and with all due respect (just in case you are a plastic surgeon or something), I am LOL bcz I know certain youth pastor types who think they are Pastors of Beauty! If I could only link you to their instagram pictures, but alas, I will show some restraint!

  100. @ nkelly:
    Oh my… *blushes*

    It’s an attempt at a joke… an ironic one… and I’m afraid that it doesn’t translate here as well as I’d hoped (the genesis was in a discussion at another site where we were poking at the trend among fundamentalist Baptist preachers to grant each other honorary “doctorates” from their church basement Bible colleges). I only switched from being plain ol’ “Josh” because another person recently started posting under the same name. My apologies, I didn’t intend to come across as pretentious. 😮

  101. Mother wrote:

    You feel like you are finally learning the hard stuff, finally doing Christianity the hard, authentic way.

    Oh. So it's an appeal to pride, then? (If that sounds like a dig against you, Mother, it's not.)

  102. Law Prof wrote:

    One has to very much wonder if they’re not the large crowd who decided it was just too tough to follow Jesus.

    Is there not a broad way taken by the many? Is there not a narrow way found by few? Did not the LORD instruct Moses to stay by His side, as the many returned to their tents? Did not the prophets criticize Judea for having places of “worship” on every corner, (like any city you drive around in today)? Was not Stephen stoned for declaring the prophesy given by Jesus that Jerusalem and the Temple, made a den of thieves, would be leveled, (as the post resurrection proof that He is eternally King of kings), and that the Temple represented always resisting the Holy Spirit?

    Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate. So, (no matter how we gather together), let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach. For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the city which is to come. That is let every gathering, be it even two or three in His name, be unto Him.

    In my opinion, emphasizing separate denominations, buildings, following particular preacher as in of Paul or of Apollos, only gathering at one place with one group for years, being monetarily taxed by one organization, results in a forsaking of our assembling all together in His name, whatever the place or time of that moment, (I have “church”every day of the week as I meet with believers for mutual encouragement).

    P.S. Law Prof, I am a thirty year expert by virtue of being a Healthcare anti-fraud attorney. I do not know how to be in contact with you outside of this blog; however, I would be glad to help you in your healthcare fraud research. When you become proficient in detecting deceptive practices in one area, you are able to detect deception in other areas. One reason I appreciate this blog, and participate, is because information is provided to expose deception and to help heal persons who have been abused by it.

  103. @ Mother:

    “I often heard at SBTS that if you went into a church as a pastor and started doing things the “Gospel (Neo-Calvinist) Way,” you could expect to lose some members. If you preached The Gospel,…”
    ++++++++++++++++

    Mother, they seem to be saying that only “they” are preaching the gospel. as if no other Christian church or entity is bothering to do so. it is so condescending.

    what in the world is “The Gospel”, according to them?

  104. It is all Christianity in America, not just evangelical.

    I have a friend who studied to be a Catholic priest. He and I often get together to talk about religion and people running away from the church.

    Leadership arrogance is at the top of the list of troubles. The leaders think because they were ” placed” then they can do no wrong, and if people stop going to church, well, it is anyone or anything’s fault, not their’s because they were ” placed.”

    He is convinced there has to be some sort of change in the leadership and until someone finally figured out the problem, both the Protestant and RCC will be in trouble. ( the Latin American Community is saving the RCC…for now…)

  105. @ Mother:

    “Coming out, re-evaluating, re-examining faith, losing financial security…all of that is painful and costly. I’m kind of grateful our experiences were so over the top, as it forced us to confront abuse and see it.”
    ++++++++++++

    what happened?

    (i apologize for the stark question. but am asking it anyway. if too painful to go in to, just ignore)

  106. @ nkelly:

    “Of course they are glad when people who dare to ask questions are gone – this way they are free to rule and reign without hindrance. This is an uncharitable statement…”
    +++++++++++++

    i see it as simply an accurate statement. charity or uncharity have nothing to do with it. no need to go into value judgements.

  107. “If you share my frustration with the disparity between the church as Scripture talks about her and what we see reflected in our religious institutions, you’re not alone. You’re standing in a long line that includes the likes of Francis of Assisi, John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, John Wesley, and nameless others who dared to ask the difficult questions and struggled with the uncomfortable answers.

    Just maybe your growing discouragement is not the proof of his failing, but the evidence of his working. What if he is actually behind this move away from institutionalized Christianity? What if he is inviting people into a simpler and more effective way to express the reality of his family? What if that church has been growing since the Day of Pentecost, and we’ve missed it— not because it wasn’t there but because we were so distracted by human attempts to build our own version of the church that we missed the more glorious one Jesus is building?”

    Jacobsen, Wayne (2014-10-13). Finding Church: What If There Really Is Something More (Kindle Locations 328-336). TrailView Media. Kindle Edition. .

  108. “What would the church of Jesus Christ look like if it were made up of people who were learning to live in the same reality Jesus did, with an eye on his Father and a compassionate heart for people around him? How well would we love one another and how much would we reflect his glory if we weren’t spending so much time and energy attending to our institutions? That’s not an idealistic dream. That church is already taking shape around the world. To embrace that reality, however, we’re going to have to see the church as he does, not how we’ve been taught to define her. The longing to find a church that fulfills the promise of Scripture is God’s gift, drawing you toward a greater reality than you’ve yet seen. I know how frustrating it can feel when your tastes of it seem to fade like a mirage in the distance, but his church is alive and well. She is not and never has been the building on the corner. Evidence of her may be there, but she’s far more glorious than our institutions or denominations could possibly contain.

    Jacobsen, Wayne (2014-10-13). Finding Church: What If There Really Is Something More (Kindle Locations 339-347). TrailView Media. Kindle Edition.

  109. Mother wrote:

    Coming out, re-evaluating, re-examining faith, losing financial security…all of that is painful and costly. I’m kind of grateful our experiences were so over the top, as it forced us to confront abuse and see it.

    I totally lost all financial security, almost lost my faith, and for a season lost my family. Every single “friend” I had would no longer even speak to me.

  110. mirele wrote:

    One comment from Ed Stetzer’s protesting: Gallup surveys of church attendance are simply worthless. They reflect aspirational behavior, not actual behavior.

    I had the same thought. I know way too many Catholics or Baptists who attend church at Easter and Christmas who would identify with attending a denominational church.

    FYI: It is not easy to count attendance at megas. That is why the numbers are always inflated and have nothing to do with membership. That is one reason so many of them went to theatre seats back in the 90’s. They count by “sections” and they know the amount of seats in a section. if a section was 3/4 full it was full. And they always miss many who are walking around in various buildings so they estimate all these things and viola! That was the attendance over the weekend.

  111. Bob M wrote:

    I totally lost all financial security, almost lost my faith, and for a season lost my family. Every single “friend” I had would no longer even speak to me.

    Doesn’t this make you wonder what we were really part of? I am sorry for your heart ache. I can all too well relate to much of it.

  112. Lydia wrote:

    mirele wrote:

    One comment from Ed Stetzer’s protesting: Gallup surveys of church attendance are simply worthless. They reflect aspirational behavior, not actual behavior.

    I had the same thought. I know way too many Catholics or Baptists who attend church at Easter and Christmas who would identify with attending a denominational church.

    FYI: It is not easy to count attendance at megas. That is why the numbers are always inflated and have nothing to do with membership. That is one reason so many of them went to theatre seats back in the 90’s. They count by “sections” and they know the amount of seats in a section. if a section was 3/4 full it was full. And they always miss many who are walking around in various buildings so they estimate all these things and viola! That was the attendance over the weekend.

    And a regular practice was to add 2% for all those people in the restrooms, and 2% for the people who were sure to come in late.

  113. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Mother:

    “I often heard at SBTS that if you went into a church as a pastor and started doing things the “Gospel (Neo-Calvinist) Way,” you could expect to lose some members. If you preached The Gospel,…”
    ++++++++++++++++

    Mother, they seem to be saying that only “they” are preaching the gospel. as if no other Christian church or entity is bothering to do so. it is so condescending.

    what in the world is “The Gospel”, according to them?

    It is the 5 points of Calvinism. I am admittedly a member of what most of you here would call a Calvinista church. A well known one. However, to be a member of our church, you do not need to be a Calvinist of any sort.

  114. Bridget wrote:

    Bob M wrote:

    I totally lost all financial security, almost lost my faith, and for a season lost my family. Every single “friend” I had would no longer even speak to me.

    Doesn’t this make you wonder what we were really part of? I am sorry for your heart ache. I can all too well relate to much of it.

    Yes, It does. I was a full fledged pastor who followed the footsteps of the evangelical crowd. I, along with a handful of leaders, tried to change that. We did, but lost 95% of the people in the church. The results were devastating for me and my family. I won’t go into the details, but it involved many years of depression. We joined our current church and have basically sat back and disappeared into the woodwork for many years, hoping for healing. We healed, but not as a result of the church. It was a result of Jesus working in us as individuals and as a family. The church never offered to help, even though they knew the whole story. However, one family did reach out, and they stuck with us through the hard 8 years of rebuilding, all outside the parameters of the church. They have watched and commiserated with us on the heavy handedness, the lack of real, genuine care by the elders for the people, yet they are so fully ingrained into the core membership that they would never dare leave. We, on the other hand, well, that is another story. I am sharing it with @ Dee via email, and maybe one day here in the open.

  115. @ Bob M:

    This was something I had to come to grips with so bear with me. I saw so many people over the years who had been staffers (both high level and low) in megas thrown to the curb for no real good reason with no unemployment or health insurance.

    And those people would continue to attend church there! I realize why now…because church was their life completely. It was everything to them. But I do think it stifles true healing in the long run and my heart aches for them.

  116. Lydia wrote:

    @ Bob M:

    This was something I had to come to grips with so bear with me. I saw so many people over the years who had been staffers (both high level and low) in megas thrown to the curb for no real good reason with no unemployment or health insurance.

    And those people would continue to attend church there! I realize why now…because church was their life completely. It was everything to them. But I do think it stifles true healing in the long run and my heart aches for them.

    We weren’t a mega. We were a mid sized church, and I was the lead Elder.

  117. Ann–regarding your comment re the Sunday high followed by the Monday crash.

    It doesn’t take much investigating to find out some worship services of the loud contemporary format kind are designed to do just exactly that. The loud, often harsh chord music, followed by the relief of the Jesus is my boyfriend worship songs, the changes in lighting, the volume levels, etc, are all designed to cause a massive release of endorphins. You get a natural high very similar to opioids. And like those drugs, you crash come Monday or have the Sunday afternoon migraine, and can hardly wait to get back to another fix on Wednesday night.

    Those doing this often rage against anything “traditional”. And they are especially venomous towards any Christian worship that is quiet and contemplative.

    See, they don’t give a rip about connecting you with Jesus. They are just your friendly churchy neighborhood drug pushers out to fleece you for your filthy lucre. Just like the guy on the corner with all the tats, only dressier.

  118. @ Bob M:
    I take your account as an example that an abusive system abuses everyone and in your case it looks to have been traumatic. Glad there was someone there to be a friend, such people have been crucial for me.

    While I won’t go near an authoritarian church anymore I understand that elders are not a panacea. If they don’t see themselves as servants they can become just as abusive as an all powerful pastor.

    I look forward to reading your story.

  119. Bob M wrote:

    I totally lost all financial security, almost lost my faith, and for a season lost my family. Every single “friend” I had would no longer even speak to me.

    I’m so sorry you went through that. I think, in the long run, you are better off being out of the system, even though it was a painful process.

    One of the ministers who made my family’s life miserable in our former cult died late last year. My husband and I often remarked that we believed many of his issues stemmed from his own unhappiness in the system. He had signed away his rights to social security decades ago to become a full time minister. Had he done anything to get himself booted from the cult at such a late stage in his life he would be starting over with nothing. He was a miserable human being.

  120. Lydia wrote:

    I can relate.

    I can too Lydia. Alcoholism nearly destroyed me. Isn’t funny how religion can be just as destructive as alcoholism when allowed to morph into what it was never intended to be?

  121. Muff Potter wrote:

    Isn’t funny how religion can be just as destructive as alcoholism when allowed to morph into what it was never intended to be?

    Not just the religion but often the financial power they have over people who work in those systems. I did see quite a few people go along for years just so they would not lose their high paying jobs and the threat of ruin. People need to be warned before they go and work in these systems. There is no unemployment and often no severance pay if you dare buck the system. They can pretty much do what they want to employees since churches are exempt from most labor laws for adults.

  122. @ Todd Wilhelm:

    Todd, really liked your comment here. I know Wayne Jacobson- his book is a great read and timely.

    I have now come to this – if you want to stay in church, I will not disparage anyone from staying. My issue is with control and abuse- this in no shape or form is godly. Certain practices, such as, tithing and membership are questionable and should NOT be forced. One needs to be a good Berean and search out what is a conviction for them and follow it through but not put the pressure on someone else to. I have many Christian friends/family who are still in church and I get along fine and vice versa. I feel that this has to come down to respect. Todd I do believe like what Wayne is saying that the church can look like a variety of ways. What if our churches started to open 7 days a week instead of 2-3? What if we allowed the church to become a soup kitchen/Bible studies/counseling/services run by the Body with elders that were overseers and advocates instead of controllers? What if gifts were utilized to their fullest potential with no one else telling another how they should use it? What if we started practicing the fruits of the Holy Spirit; showing the world that to be a Christian was about Jesus not the monetary gain or power?

    1 Peter 5
    Therefore, I urge the congregation leaders among you, as a fellow-leader and witness to the Messiah’s sufferings, as well as a sharer in the glory to be revealed: shepherd the flock of God that is in your care, exercising oversight not out of constraint, but willingly, as God wants; and not out of a desire for dishonest gain, but with enthusiasm; also not as machers domineering over those in your care, but as people who become examples to the flock. …

    This version of the verse comes from the Complete Jewish Bible. What I found out that was interesting was the word MACHERS. In the dictionary Machers means an influential person; a person who gets things done; a boss; but this term is used in a negative sense. Scripture tells the picture so clearly, so how in the world have we missed this?

  123. @ Bob M:

    Wow you went through a lot Bob. I understand the depression- it hit my husband and I too. There was no one there even to just be a listener in the church. Also looking forward to hearing your story

  124. Lydia wrote:

    They can pretty much do what they want to employees since churches are exempt from most labor laws for adults.

    In my opinion this needs to change. These organizations benefit greatly from the tax supported infrastructure we all enjoy and yet pay nothing into it. Why should mega-biggies be allowed to pick and choose what laws they should be exempt from while the rest of us are obliged to abide by them? Why should they get to have it both ways? Maybe one of our resident Dershowitz(s) could weigh in on this, or even better, maybe Judge Tim could issue an unofficial opinion from the bench?

  125. @ Bob M:

    “the footsteps of the evangelical crowd. I, along with a handful of leaders, tried to change that. We did, but lost 95% of the people in the church. The results were devastating for me and my family.”
    +++++++++

    I am so sorry. I am also happy for the healing that has happened for you.

    my story is not your story, but perhaps there are some commonalities. when still in powder state, after 1st Church of Dysfunction came to an end, followed by 2nd Church of Dysfunction, i attended a big big church for a while and sat in the very last seat in the farthest back dim right-hand corner in the very last row. Where there was no one and it was fairly dark. And cried the entire time.

    there is no obligation to do so, but if you ever feel it would be good/right to tell your story at TWW in however little or much detail, i’m sure others would be helped by it. more than you would ever dream or even find out about. exponentially so.

  126. nkelly wrote:

    Some of them may even have an epiphany at some point and leave the kingdoms they’ve worked so hard to create. And we may feel like Jonah at first, but with the Lord’s help offer them refuge like others who have gone before us have offered us.

    I happen to know one of those very hard cases who’d presided over the destruction of one church and the near-destruction of another–a ruthless would be climber–who, when it all finally turned on him and he was the one tossed out through the machiavellian behavior of one of his former lieutenants, had that epiphany. So it can and does happen.

  127. @ Muff Potter:

    I totally agree. And it became an even bigger problem with the rise of mega churches and their many employees. And while they have layers of ordained employees who are not in the system, how can they get by with paying FICA on the other employees but then throw them out for no good reason? They don’t need a reason since judges will not rule on what are presented as doctrinal matters even when they aren’t. That is how Patterson got by with getting rid of Dr. Klouda for being a woman. He claimed the seminary operated like a church.

    In my experience, the anti mega community always tried to use zoning laws to stop the building and that did delay things for some. But the anti mega community always forgets how many local celebs and high rollers attend mega churches.

  128. @ linda:

    ” The loud, often harsh chord music, followed by the relief of the Jesus is my boyfriend worship songs, the changes in lighting, the volume levels, etc, are all designed to cause a massive release of endorphins. You get a natural high very similar to opioids. …. they don’t give a rip about connecting you with Jesus.”
    +++++++++++++

    speaking only from my sector of church experience, and as a music planner/player: i disagree. don’t know what other churches do, but this is how we approached it:

    Celebrating God/enjoying God’s presence by way of music can be very much like human intimacy. Intimacy doesn’t happen immediately: starting with more-or-less casual & good rapport, naturally leading into things more heart-felt, more depth.

    When i’ve planned the music, it always tends to plan itself. More often than not it ends up being like the above. Now and then it has started quiet and moved in an intense direction, or else the whole thing is quiet. There was never a pre-meditated design to work people over. it was simply the natural direction which the music seemed to be taking on its own.

    Again, speaking from only my experience in my ‘sector’, worshipping God in music has seemed to follow the same patterns as human intimacy.

  129. Ed wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    One has to very much wonder if they’re not the large crowd who decided it was just too tough to follow Jesus.
    Is there not a broad way taken by the many? Is there not a narrow way found by few? Did not the LORD instruct Moses to stay by His side, as the many returned to their tents? Did not the prophets criticize Judea for having places of “worship” on every corner, (like any city you drive around in today)? Was not Stephen stoned for declaring the prophesy given by Jesus that Jerusalem and the Temple, made a den of thieves, would be leveled, (as the post resurrection proof that He is eternally King of kings), and that the Temple represented always resisting the Holy Spirit?
    Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate. So, (no matter how we gather together), let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach. For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the city which is to come. That is let every gathering, be it even two or three in His name, be unto Him.
    In my opinion, emphasizing separate denominations, buildings, following particular preacher as in of Paul or of Apollos, only gathering at one place with one group for years, being monetarily taxed by one organization, results in a forsaking of our assembling all together in His name, whatever the place or time of that moment, (I have “church”every day of the week as I meet with believers for mutual encouragement).
    P.S. Law Prof, I am a thirty year expert by virtue of being a Healthcare anti-fraud attorney. I do not know how to be in contact with you outside of this blog; however, I would be glad to help you in your healthcare fraud research. When you become proficient in detecting deceptive practices in one area, you are able to detect deception in other areas. One reason I appreciate this blog, and participate, is because information is provided to expose deception and to help heal persons who have been abused by it.

    elastigirl wrote:

    @ Mother:
    “I often heard at SBTS that if you went into a church as a pastor and started doing things the “Gospel (Neo-Calvinist) Way,” you could expect to lose some members. If you preached The Gospel,…”
    ++++++++++++++++
    Mother, they seem to be saying that only “they” are preaching the gospel. as if no other Christian church or entity is bothering to do so. it is so condescending.
    what in the world is “The Gospel”, according to them?

    For most:

    1). Neocalvinism, i.e., the “Doctrines of Grace” (which in my opinion are ironically named both based upon what they hold and what belief in them seems in time to do to the level of true grace shown by adherents);

    2). Complementarianism (which always works out to authoritarianism and male superiority, even beyond the grave);

    3). Rigid hierarchies within bodies of believers in which those in the fellowship are fit into an inflexible pyramid, from the most important (them, of course, at the top) to the least important drones at the bottom);

    4). Wealth, semi-fame, influence and prosperity for the ones such as themselves, who are at the pinnacle of the pyramid;

    5). Envy, flattery and sycophantic subservience (by those trying to work their way up the pyramid directed towards those on top who can either make or break the sycophant’s careers)

    6). Jealousy, strife, petty cruelties, vicious slander, hatred (towards anyone who dares question the “anointed” who have ascended to the top of the pyramid).

  130. Bob M wrote:

    I totally lost all financial security, almost lost my faith, and for a season lost my family. Every single “friend” I had would no longer even speak to me.

    That was so painful to read! I do hope we can share your story here at TWW soon. I have no doubt that it will be helpful to our readers and hopefully a cathartic experience for you to document what happened.

  131. Muff Potter wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    They can pretty much do what they want to employees since churches are exempt from most labor laws for adults.

    Why should mega-biggies be allowed to pick and choose what laws they should be exempt from while the rest of us are obliged to abide by them? Why should they get to have it both ways? ?

    Here’s a New York Times article that explains the religious exemptions to a host of laws: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/09/business/09religious.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

  132. Faith wrote:

    This version of the verse comes from the Complete Jewish Bible. What I found out that was interesting was the word MACHERS. In the dictionary Machers means an influential person; a person who gets things done; a boss; but this term is used in a negative sense. Scripture tells the picture so clearly, so how in the world have we missed this?

    For some leaders, I believe it’s because they’re profoundly disturbed people trying desperately to create a church environment and theology where their wounds, most of which probably came out of a very abusive childhood, perhaps at the hands of religious hypocrites, can be healed–something like the daughter of the alcoholic who then marries an alcoholic, thinking somehow she as an adult can make it right. I don’t think they’re paying close enough attention to what the Bible says, because really, the Lord and the Bible are not what it’s about for them. They grew up feeling like junk, so they want a system where they can be the Center of it All, the Adored Objects.

    Their typical theology does not include much of the Bible, just a few snippets that support whatever they think they need to salve their wounds. I have often been amazed at how shallow is the knowledge of many of these people, about life, human nature, and about the Bible itself. They spend much of their time at conferences or on Youtube getting the spin from Big Men, and they don’t know that much of the Bible, but what they do know, they have down cold, often memorized, and their theology consists primarily of prefabbed arguments and rhetorical traps and fancied parallel verses that explain away anything that doesn’t support their presuppositions. They are insecure in their knowledge, it being as shallow as it is, therefore they respond to reasonable questions by blocking people on Twitter, excising comments on their blogs that they can’t answer, and shouting down or viciously undermining anyone who won’t follow their party line.

  133. Law Prof wrote:

    nkelly wrote:
    Some of them may even have an epiphany at some point and leave the kingdoms they’ve worked so hard to create. And we may feel like Jonah at first, but with the Lord’s help offer them refuge like others who have gone before us have offered us.
    I happen to know one of those very hard cases who’d presided over the destruction of one church and the near-destruction of another–a ruthless would be climber–who, when it all finally turned on him and he was the one tossed out through the machiavellian behavior of one of his former lieutenants, had that epiphany. So it can and does happen.

    Yes, but it is so harsh and doesn’t need to be this way. The winners want to win, win, win. This is not the Kingdom of God as I see it proclaimed in scripture.

  134. @ Michaela:

    Thanks for the article Michaela, it’s very informative. It seems there was only one instance in which the court(s) had the cojones to stand up against injustice. One attorney, J. Jeffrey Heck, put it this way:

    “I understand and absolutely appreciate that in matters of religion, the state has no business meddling,” Mr. Heck said. “It would be unthinkable for a judge to be able to say, ‘Hey, I don’t like the way you’re interpreting the Book of Luke.’ ”

    But what religious principle is offended when an employee simply grows old or becomes ill, he asked. If the answer is “none,” he continued, judges should be more willing to “look behind the curtain.”

    I agree with Mr. Heck and I think he’s right on the money. To use a metaphor, what we currently have is mired in a kind of Dred Scott swamp of tradition. I believe the laws can be carefully revamped into something better reflective of the modern and pluralistic society we all enjoy.

  135. Nancy on Sat May 16, 2015 at 09:45 AM said:
    “I do not doubt that some people leave ‘church” because they are nominal. But! I looked up the definition of nominal and found the following: (1) existing in name only (2) very small; far below the real value or cost.
    Based on those definitions I believe the church is indeed in decline in quality as exemplified by some of the things that are taught and practiced and tolerated in some churches today. Some churches themselves are nominal, and some people who participate compulsively are also nominal if evaluated by the NT picture of church and of discipleship. So, yes, I agree that we are in the midst of a great epidemic of decline. When the culture wars are more important than the gospel, that is nominal at work. Whey busy work becomes the identifier of who gets to claim to be holier than the rest, that is nominal. When spiritual and educational adolescence carries over into young adult years and then the one suffering from this growth retardation is proclaimed an elder, that is a textbook case of nominal.”

    Nancy, well said!

  136. “I agree with Mr. Heck and I think he’s right on the money. To use a metaphor, what we currently have is mired in a kind of Dred Scott swamp of tradition. I believe the laws can be carefully revamped into something better reflective of the modern and pluralistic society we all enjoy.” -Muff

    Muff,

    I am glad you were helped by the New York Times’ article. (The second link has the full 8-part series about religious exemptions.)

    One of the attorneys who posts here – LawProf, Mirele – could possibly post about the difficulty in changing religious exemption laws given case law (appellate court rulings/judge-made law).

  137. @ Josh, Doctor of Pulchritudinousness:
    Hey Josh you didn’t sound pretentious at all – I thought it was funny when I saw what the word meant! Please don’t let me stop using your name. Actually I am new here too so I dont know what works and doesnt. But from what I can tell, everyone here seems very accepting and seems to understand the humor 🙂

  138. @ Law Prof:
    Very good to know! So what were your feelings when this happened? Did you trust it at first? I guess it would seem like a miracle!

  139. elastigirl–I’m glad your experience is different, but as a former musician I can tell you we often WERE doing just what I said. And if you spend some time on a google search, there are many doing so.

    I would even say when you describe your musical choices to engender an intimate moment with God, you have crossed the line into manipulation.

    Why can we not tell people about God, invite them to express that through song, and leave off trying to manipulate them to feel pumped up or quieted down or like they are having an intimate moment, etc.

    Why can’t we trust the Holy Spirit to do that?

    Why instead are some actively teaching which endorphins cause which response, and which music releases which ones? Want intimacy? What was it, oxytocin? Want them to feel pleasure? Dopamine release. Want them to feel happy all over and pumped up? Adrenaline. Want them calm and in love with Jesus? Seratonin plus dopamine.

    It is real. And it stinks.

  140. nkelly wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    Very good to know! So what were your feelings when this happened? Did you trust it at first? I guess it would seem like a miracle!

    When I first heard it, I thought it was total bull, just another con game played by an inveterate con man, just another attempt to draw back the ones he’d lost along the way and remake his career as a climber and megachurch-builder. When I met him face to face, and saw what had happened to him and saw the blunt honesty and confessions and experienced his new vibe up close, I believe it now. Still don’t trust it entirely, because I’ve seen to much to put blind faith in anything other than Jesus, but thus far, I believe the guy really gets it and is really groping towards truth and starting to find it.

    It does seem like a pure, full-on miracle to me. I have not noticed anything similar to this in anything I’ve seen from any of the Superstars of Faith who’ve fallen and claim to have repented, but maybe they had gotten in too deep with their stardom and all, like the rich young ruler who couldn’t bring himself to leave all and follow Jesus, whereas my new friend/once enemy didn’t have as much to lose or as much hope as people like Driscoll or Phillips or Mahaney that he might somehow get it all back.

  141. Bob M wrote:

    what in the world is “The Gospel”, according to them?

    It is the 5 points of Calvinism.

    Who needs Christ when you have CALVIN?

  142. About the Pew thingie and is the church in decline. Father S started here in the homily this morning, said the church has indeed been slowly declining generation after generation for quite some time now and then mentioned that he has to defend his dissertation for his D Min tomorrow on a topic directly involved with this issue. Now it was obvious to me that his idea of what needs to be done, being an episcopal priest, is different from what the evangelicals think is going on, but that is exactly the point I want to make.

    The idea that he presented was that the church has neglected spiritual things and needs to quit letting other issues marginalize the spiritual basis for the faith. His main topic was the eucharist, but regardless the idea is broader than that. I am thinking that this is pretty much the opposite of the evangelical idea that the churches need to engage the culture more on ethical issues and for sure different from some idea that if the men can just get the women under control everything will be all better.

    My feeling is that christianity is not just one more ethical monotheism but at its core has to be about god-with-us whether in the incarnation or the Spirit or the sacraments or the mysteries of christ has died, christ has risen, christ will come again. If we lose the focus on Jesus we have lost the ball game no matter how many people sit on the pews or how many laws get passed or how many people can recite doctrine and for sure no matter how much money is thrown into the coffers.

  143. @ Law Prof:

    Thank you for sharing that as we know it could happen at any point to the various ex pastors we collectively know, even though it seems impossible now. It seems like wisdom to not trust it completely even if he is sincere, since you can't be sure he won't (ed.) rally and create a mini-version of what he did before. It takes time to really know. It's really difficult for those in leadership to simply chill and allow the Lord to clean out the old stuff before they jump in and lead again. Look at Jim Baker who went to prison and seemed to have repented but other leaders in his ex-circle are now helping him start something similar years later, apparently on the same PTL property. Ted Haggard, after stepping down from his church bcz of his moral failings was said to be leading a church of 100 again soon after. Jimmy Swaggart still seems to be going. . .

  144. Lydia wrote:

    They can pretty much do what they want to employees since churches are exempt from most labor laws for adults.

    The New York Times article was interesting. Unlike businesses or other nonprofits, churches obviously have to be free to discriminate on the basis of religion. A Jewish synagogue wouldn’t want to hire a Protestant for its rabbi or vice versa. I can even go along with a religious institution choosing janitors and secretaries from among its membership. And a court has no rational way of determining who is right or wrong when people lose their positions over doctrinal disputes.

    However, something is very wrong when a religious institution fails to protect staff pensions or fires employees for getting sick and driving up insurance costs. Churches want their members to sign covenants and honor their promises to tithe and attend, etc. However they want the right not to honor their own promises to employees and call it religious freedom.

    It is not in the public interest for churches to violate the rights employees have everywhere else. If they have played fast and loose with pensions, leaving long term staffers in poverty, fired someone for getting sick instead of letting him use the health and disability insurance he was promised, or if they fire someone for reporting sexual abuse, then I think the courts should get involved.

  145. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Bob M:

    “the footsteps of the evangelical crowd. I, along with a handful of leaders, tried to change that. We did, but lost 95% of the people in the church. The results were devastating for me and my family.”
    +++++++++

    I am so sorry. I am also happy for the healing that has happened for you.

    my story is not your story, but perhaps there are some commonalities. when still in powder state, after 1st Church of Dysfunction came to an end, followed by 2nd Church of Dysfunction, i attended a big big church for a while and sat in the very last seat in the farthest back dim right-hand corner in the very last row. Where there was no one and it was fairly dark. And cried the entire time.

    there is no obligation to do so, but if you ever feel it would be good/right to tell your story at TWW in however little or much detail, i’m sure others would be helped by it. more than you would ever dream or even find out about. exponentially so.

    @ elastigirl
    Thank you. I have contemplated it many times. About 6 months ago, a friend from the 90’s asked me via fb why I left.that group. I gave him the long version. I will find that and edit it and share it. My wife and jesus are the heroes if the story if there are any. We still struggle with guilt, irrational fear of failure and still second guess ourselves a lot.

  146. @ linda:

    “Why can we not tell people about God, invite them to express that through song, and leave off trying to manipulate them to feel pumped up or quieted down or like they are having an intimate moment, etc.

    Why can’t we trust the Holy Spirit to do that?”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    I understand what you are saying.

    what you describe about “some actively teaching which endorphins cause which response, and which music releases which ones” is just….. musical blasphemy. people are doing this with religious expression? what utter morons, artistic and otherwise. they obviously wouldn’t know inspiration from an infomercial.

    what I described in my comment above is something that everyone does with regard to music. when it’s a loved one’s birthday, chances are you sing a rousing rendition of “Happy Birthday” with all the energy and good feelings you have. you make a deliberate choice to sing that kind of song to the one you love, with that kind of energy.

    when it’s Christmas, i would guess that you like many people enjoy singing “Joy To The World” and “Hark the Herald Angels Sing”, for example, when you’re feeling festive and joyful. And when the mood is one of quieting down, “Silent Night” is just right. you don’t analyze it, you just do it because it’s enjoyable and feels right and good.

    music in the hands of manipulators will do the job, exploited though it may be. music in the hands of musicians who have a desire to express something meaningful is something entirely different. it is a pure and living thing.

    music is what it is. it simply does impact our feelings, emotions, mood, thoughts. it’s a journey. if you’ve ever been to the Nutcracker Suite, you are taken on a journey of feelings, mood, emotion — no one would say it’s manipulation.

    music in my church experience has been a similar thing. i have planned it to express beautiful things. it ends up being a journey that takes people somewhere, through all that music is.

    i trust the holy spirit to be active before the music starts. i trust the holy spirit to be active through the music. i trust the holy spirit to be active when the music stops.

    At Christmas time,

    Why instead are some

  147. @ Marsha:
    My experience is that these situations are always rounded out to be presented as doctrinal issues when it comes to employees. They can label any disagreement as insubordination ala Hebrews 13:17. Therefore doctrinal. One simply cannot disagree.

  148. fwiw, a friend in England a long time ago got together with some American evangelicals to try to ascertain just what the authentic Christian population of both countries really was. ‘Authentic’ meaning those who really believe the NT and have actually put their faith in Christ, this was not a doctrine test.

    The purpose was to see just what the task of evangelism really is in both countries. The conclusion was about 8% of the US population and about 7% of the UK population despite many more self-identifying as Christians in a nominal way.

    I remember at the time thinking particularly of the States that this implies a very large numnber of ‘unsaved’ churchgoers. This used to be the case in Britain too, but those with no real faith have become fewer as people tire of going through the motions or only go because their parents or even grandparents had a genuine faith.

    Regardless of the exact figures which are humanly speaking unknowable, there is still a large group of ‘religious’ people within the Christian scene, and imo this is seen in the blatantly unchristian behaviour that is the subject of many of the posts on this site done by people who would vehemently claim to be Christians.

    Evidence for this is that in the States the church tries to incorporate the American dream with its health and wealth gospel, and in the UK the church follows the moral lukewarmness and bodging so beloved of non-churchgoing Brits. Vague, ethereal and undemanding, and in Revelation 3 style makes you want to throw up.

  149. @ Michaela:

    From the article:

    “Along with her occupation and her home, she lost her health insurance, Mr. Heck said. Ms. Rosati, who still lacks health insurance but whose cancer is in remission, said she preferred not to discuss her experience because of her continuing love for the church. ”

    And therein is the biggest problem. People equate the institution with Jesus Christ. The “church” she loves throws her to the curb during a serious and potentially fatal illness but she won’t speak about it because of her “love for the church”.

  150. @ elastigirl:
    I understand what you are saying, I think, though I haven’t read the whole thread.

    Yes, music is a tool, isn’t it? Used as you describe it, it can be a blessing, maybe (pardon me while I try to form an image — I think in pictures as much as words) like a radio fine-tuner that helps the spirit home in on the Spirit’s carrier wave. Maybe that’s too fanciful.

    Whereas, music can also be used for manipulation. I remember in the 80s, being in “worship” gatherings where choruses were sung over and over again. I’m not sure what the official reason was, but the effect seemed to be hypnotizing the worshipers, maybe to put them into a suggestive state? I read articles to that effect, anyhow, and decided I preferred hymns to choruses, and stuck to that for years. I was quite the worship music snob.

    In recent years I have found some thoughtfully written CCM to be deep, scriptural, and meaningful, so I’ve shifted my stance somewhat.

  151. @ Ken:

    How did they ascertain whether somebody was athentic re NT and Jesus? I would think that anybody who had any sort of working knowledge of christianity, regardless of what they actually believed, could answer a set of questions on a poll so as to appear authentic re NT and Jesus?

    Right now in the US there is the idea going around that real vs not real christians can be identified by their stance on the gay marriage issue for example. From time to time there are litmus tests like that. So what were their deal breakers?

    I am not questioning that there are people who self identify as christians but who are may not be actually believers in real sense of the word. But I am curious about this study because of the low figures they got.

  152. @ Nancy:

    There is also the issue that some people label whole denoms and the people who are affiliated with them as not really christians. I won’t get started on this, but it is a pet peeve of mine. And some of the ‘conservatives’ right now and right here in the US are skating close to that thin ice.

  153. @ refugee:

    “I remember in the 80s, being in “worship” gatherings where choruses were sung over and over again. I’m not sure what the official reason was, but the effect seemed to be hypnotizing the worshipers, maybe to put them into a suggestive state? I read articles to that effect, anyhow”
    ++++++++++++

    hi, (fellow) refugee. thanks for the interaction. i think in picures, too — all the time, especially when praying with others. one image after another, constantly forming (kind of like a lava lamp in my mind’s eye — but developing with more definition and colors). fanciful is never something to apologize for as far as I’m concerned. (i bet you write poetry — or at least appreciate it).

    re: your excerpt above, we often end up doing what you describe (the over & over again thing). it’s when intimacy with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit seems to have arrived (in the same way when intimacy begins to happen with a human being, after having spent really good time together with someone you love, or ever find you are beginning to love).

    it is NEVER calculated or premeditated…. it just… happens. we musicians and singers just go with the flow, creating in the moment. it takes on a life of its own. it is alive. it knows when to build and grow, when to slow and quiet, when to stop. like a train that we all get on. we just feel and listen for the train and let it carry us, interjecting creative ideas as they happen. this is nothing all that special or unique, really — it’s how jazz improvisation happens.

    it’s usually wonderful, like something you never want to end. although i recognize everyone has a different level of tolerance for these things. there are times when i know it’s gone on too long, the life has run out of it, and on the piano i can guide it all to a close. and i’m sure there are people who thought it had run out of life long before i did.

    music is so subjective. we give each other room to have feelings and opinions about it, and (in my opinion) avoid value judgements other than the musicality of it.

  154. refugee wrote:

    Whereas, music can also be used for manipulation. I remember in the 80s, being in “worship” gatherings where choruses were sung over and over again. I’m not sure what the official reason was, but the effect seemed to be hypnotizing the worshipers, maybe to put them into a suggestive state?

    Like the Symp and Parasymp Organs of the corrupt religious Hierarchy in Fritz Leiber’s Gather, Darkness!.

  155. Elastigirl–yes, totally agree music is going to naturally have an effect on our emotions, and that is a good thing. It may shock you, but no, I don’t want someone planning ahead at Christmas which Sunday they believe I need to feel joyful and which Sunday they think I need to be quiet and reflective. Rather, where I worship now chooses the songs based on the lyric content–old songs, new songs, whatever–and seeks to match that with the sermon and the scriptures. The Spirit may move some to rejoice and some to weep in the same exact song.

    Our journey was funny: I loved contemporary and worked hard to see my church go that route. Loved it. Absolutely blessed by it. Except for one little thing–I found myself, my friends, and my family were often exceedingly moved on Sunday and exceedingly crabby on Monday. Hmm. That was something very new for us to experience. And then our loving God literally ripped me out of that fellowship and plopped me down (ok, we moved) 1800 miles to a town where our worship choices were liturgical or….more liturgical. I must admit to going through what felt like withdrawal for about 6 months. It seemed flat, stale, and I kept waiting for “ok put your hands together for Jesus” or a breathy Jesus is my boyfriend type love song or a foot stomping rendition of “I’ll Fly Away” or “Step by Step” or something to wake up this, to me, dead church.

    And then the withdrawal ended. And the Holy Spirit got my attention. And worship became a truly intimate time in the presence of Jesus and focused on Him, not on my emotions and feelings.

    And then we moved here. Back into contemporary evangelical worship. Serving as a musician and being overtly TOLD what response we wanted to which song we were going to do. Gag me with a spoon, I could not participate in that any longer. Now we are back in a church that does mostly hymns with a few carefully chosen choruses and contemporary songs. Chosen to avoid Calvinism explicitly, and to avoid manipulation. And we are blessed.

    But holy moly say word one against using the music with planning aforesight to engender a chosen mood and you can get truly blasted over at the still manipulating churches. Same thing online

    When that happens, I tend to chuckle under my breath and wonder when God is going to plop them down where they cannot get their endorphin fix. And wondering what they will think if they do an online search of the whole shebang and find whole sites and e-mags telling people how to manipulate (excuse me, ahem, lead people to experience) carefully pre chosen emotions.

  156. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Bob M wrote:
    what in the world is “The Gospel”, according to them?
    It is the 5 points of Calvinism.
    Who needs Christ when you have CALVIN?

    And that’s EXACTLY what they think……

  157. @ Nancy:

    There is also the issue that some people label whole denoms and the people who are affiliated with them as not really christians. … And some of the ‘conservatives’ right now and right here in the US are skating close to that thin ice.

    Skating? LOL. They fell through decades ago. I’ve spent my entire life listening to Baptists and non-denoms say “Lutherans are dead Christians.” People have even said this to my mom’s face. They backtracked and hedged real quick once she told them she was Lutheran.

  158. In the area of music I can relate two experiences from 15 to 20 years ago. One was a citywide celebration on Easter. Instead of individual churches meeting on Easter they all met together in a local arena and held one service. It was a wonderful idea but for the music they never once backed of, let alone shut off, the instruments. The instruments overpowered the 10,000 plus people.

    We didn’t get the experience of hearing all the people in the community singing together, a monumental shame.

    A similar experience was in the King Dome in Seattle, in that case I believe it was a promise keepers rally, 40,000 men and the same thing happened. Imagine the place filled with 40,00 voices singing together. I can only imagine because all I could hear was blasting by instruments, I couldn’t hear the guy next to me or even myself.

    It was those two experiences that led me to believe that the music leaders didn’t know what they doing, what they were there for. When I registered my concern I was brushed off with the usual, you’re not in the right place (spiritually). I wasn’t suggesting to sing the whole time a cappella, but folks, get a clue.

  159. Bill M wrote:

    It was those two experiences that led me to believe that the music leaders didn’t know what they doing, what they were there for. When I registered my concern I was brushed off with the usual, you’re not in the right place (spiritually). I wasn’t suggesting to sing the whole time a cappella, but folks, get a clue.

    I think I know what a lot of them are there for: their own aggrandizement.

  160. Bill M wrote:

    In the area of music I can relate two experiences from 15 to 20 years ago. One was a citywide celebration on Easter. Instead of individual churches meeting on Easter they all met together in a local arena and held one service. It was a wonderful idea but for the music they never once backed of, let alone shut off, the instruments. The instruments overpowered the 10,000 plus people.
    We didn’t get the experience of hearing all the people in the community singing together, a monumental shame.
    A similar experience was in the King Dome in Seattle, in that case I believe it was a promise keepers rally, 40,000 men and the same thing happened. Imagine the place filled with 40,00 voices singing together. I can only imagine because all I could hear was blasting by instruments, I couldn’t hear the guy next to me or even myself.
    It was those two experiences that led me to believe that the music leaders didn’t know what they doing, what they were there for. When I registered my concern I was brushed off with the usual, you’re not in the right place (spiritually). I wasn’t suggesting to sing the whole time a cappella, but folks, get a clue.

    Don’t you know, it’s all about THEM…..music directors, pastors, etc….etc…..etc….

  161. K.D. wrote:

    Don’t you know, it’s all about THEM…..music directors, pastors, etc….etc…..etc….

    Honestly, I don’t think this is fair. Some are about themselves, many aren’t though.

  162. The music at my church can be really good (if you listen to it) but it can be impossible for me to sing. Some of it is written with no time signature and no key signature but it does denote accidentals and it just kind of meanders along to accommodate the words. All in unison. And it does weird things. Out of the blue it asked me to produce a G flat. There is such a thing of course, and if they had asked for F sharp I could have done it, but there is that whole thing that on some instruments G flat is minimally lower tone than F sharp and so I got terminally distracted as to what they could be thinking to do this and who cares and so I just got totally lost in the whole process and quit singing. It didn’t really matter because I was in over my head already trying to figure out what was going on.

    Any kind of music is a mixed bag in my book.

  163. Folks, I believe the whole system is flawed. Many would not want to admit it even to themselves, most would never do anything intentionally to overshadow the Lord (though surely there are some knaves, maybe some very famous knaves, who would), but in many churches and conferences and for many people, this is what is going on, both at the hands of the music people and the preachers and teachers and prophets.

    The system of putting a certain person or group of people up on a stage with the lights upon them, tuning down the lights in the crowd, making a man or woman or small group the center of attention, belongs to rock concerts and motivational speakers, it does not belong in the church and bears horrific fruits.

  164. Law Prof wrote:

    Folks, I believe the whole system is flawed. Many would not want to admit it even to themselves, most would never do anything intentionally to overshadow the Lord (though surely there are some knaves, maybe some very famous knaves, who would), but in many churches and conferences and for many people, this is what is going on, both at the hands of the music people and the preachers and teachers and prophets.
    The system of putting a certain person or group of people up on a stage with the lights upon them, tuning down the lights in the crowd, making a man or woman or small group the center of attention, belongs to rock concerts and motivational speakers, it does not belong in the church and bears horrific fruits.

    Amen Brother! It is absurdly out of place IMO. It is totally of the World, and removes the focus from where it ought to be…

  165. Agree with this.

    Law Prof wrote:

    The system of putting a certain person or group of people up on a stage with the lights upon them, tuning down the lights in the crowd, making a man or woman or small group the center of attention, belongs to rock concerts and motivational speakers, it does not belong in the church and bears horrific fruits.

    Don’t gree with this.

    K.D. wrote:

    Don’t you know, it’s all about THEM…..music directors, pastors, etc….etc…..etc….

  166. Bridget wrote:

    Honestly, I don’t think this is fair. Some are about themselves, many aren’t though.

    Agreed, thanks for clearing that up. In one case I knew the people, they weren’t getting anything monetary and I didn’t immediately go up and smack them, actually it was months later on a related subject. Apparently there was simply no avenue open to point out a major flaw without a defensive “you’re heart is not in the right place”.

    If music is your ministry it shouldn’t be just about performance, it should be understood that singing together, hearings everyone’s voices, is a wonderful expression of unity. That said, I thought there would be more thought, but I’m only offering anecdotal evidence, and projection gets me in trouble.

  167. Law Prof wrote:

    The system of putting a certain person or group of people up on a stage with the lights upon them, tuning down the lights in the crowd, making a man or woman or small group the center of attention, belongs to rock concerts and motivational speakers, it does not belong in the church and bears horrific fruits.

    Agreed, but man that is one controversial statement in a lot of churches.

  168. @ linda:

    “It may shock you, but no, I don’t want someone planning ahead at Christmas which Sunday they believe I need to feel joyful and which Sunday they think I need to be quiet and reflective.”
    ++++++++++

    I wouldn’t want this either. Why would you think it would shock me? When I mentioned Christmas carols I was thinking of playing Christmas music in one’s own home or in the car, and simply singing along with it or humming along. Neither I nor the churches I come from give a flying fick about your or anyone’s need to be joyful or quiet and reflective.

    music done with the intent to manipulate (especially in a God-setting) is revolting.

    i say let music be the artistic wonder it is, and make it with integrity. sing and play for joy and self-expression. in any style.

  169. Law Prof wrote:

    The system of putting a certain person or group of people up on a stage with the lights upon them, tuning down the lights in the crowd, making a man or woman or small group the center of attention, belongs to rock concerts and motivational speakers, it does not belong in the church and bears horrific fruits.

    Well said. Exactly right

  170. Bill M wrote:

    A similar experience was in the King Dome in Seattle, in that case I believe it was a promise keepers rally, 40,000 men and the same thing happened. Imagine the place filled with 40,00 voices singing together. I can only imagine because all I could hear was blasting by instruments, I couldn’t hear the guy next to me or even myself.

    “If this is too loud, you’re too old”?
    Or just a wanna-be Rave without the Ecstasy?

  171. @ Law Prof:

    The system of putting a certain person or group of people up on a stage with the lights upon them, tuning down the lights in the crowd, making a man or woman or small group the center of attention, belongs to rock concerts and motivational speakers, it does not belong in the church and bears horrific fruits.

    Agreed absolutely.

  172. elastigirl wrote:

    i say let music be the artistic wonder it is, and make it with integrity. sing and play for joy and self-expression. in any style.

    In the fundagelical bubble there is no such thing as art for art’s sake.

  173. Law Prof wrote:

    The system of putting a certain person or group of people up on a stage with the lights upon them, tuning down the lights in the crowd, making a man or woman or small group the center of attention, belongs to rock concerts and motivational speakers, it does not belong in the church and bears horrific fruits.

    Allow me to join in by saying I agree. From the time the discussion of music began in this chain, I have thought of the detrimental results of the arena concert approach that has taken many by storm. There are postings of SBC mega “church” bands playing “I love Rock and Roll”, “Highway to Hell” and such. These same mega “churches” are led by controversial, very wealthy, PG-13 and above (the preacher’s own self description) preachers. While these are current extreme examples, they represent the direction of evangelicalism.

    In fact, I almost missed the concern that is the reason for this posting. There are issues with the numbers of members. More importantly, in the numbers, evangelical is being taken over by more and more controversial, (according to the historical gospel message), doctrines. Large numbers of true believers are being shown the exit doors. At the same time,converts are going to mega, and wannabe mega, driven groups. They are pulled from existing groups or are new converts to the rock style, feel good message. In both cases, having to tithe, and exceed that, is a required practice. Huge money flows in, attracting more to pursue the numbers. Therefore, groups like the SBC are pursuing the concert, ballad, entertaining lesson approach to “growth”. Therefore, historic evangelical is in fact in decline.

  174. @ elastigirl:

    Let me rephrase: neither I nor my most recent church do anything to plan or manage the feelings, emotions, thoughts, or reactions of anyone. I somehow feel you’re assuming otherwise. I respect & care very much about the feelings & needs of others. Whatever music I may plan or participate in I do as a gift for the pleasure of others and God, and nothing more. If it is an ‘instrument’ through which Holy Spirit can speak, heal, encourage, comfort, inspire, then marvelous. that part is certainly not up to me or anyone.

  175. Lydia wrote:

    @ Michaela:

    From the article:

    “Along with her occupation and her home, she lost her health insurance, Mr. Heck said. Ms. Rosati, who still lacks health insurance but whose cancer is in remission, said she preferred not to discuss her experience because of her continuing love for the church. ”

    And therein is the biggest problem. People equate the institution with Jesus Christ. The “church” she loves throws her to the curb during a serious and potentially fatal illness but she won’t speak about it because of her “love for the church”.

    Spot on, Lydia. When I read that NYT article, I thought it sounded like an abusive relationship where the abused keeps saying how much she loves a guy who obviously doesn’t love her.

    By the way, in case I haven’t told you this, Lydia, I really appreciate all of your insightful posts (from having worked in churches) about what goes on behind the scenes, the dysfunction, abuses, manipulations and the like.

  176. elastigirl wrote:

    @ elastigirl:

    Let me rephrase: neither I nor my most recent church do anything to plan or manage the feelings, emotions, thoughts, or reactions of anyone. I somehow feel you’re assuming otherwise. I respect & care very much about the feelings & needs of others. Whatever music I may plan or participate in I do as a gift for the pleasure of others and God, and nothing more. If it is an ‘instrument’ through which Holy Spirit can speak, heal, encourage, comfort, inspire, then marvelous. that part is certainly not up to me or anyone.

    I have never attended a church where the music was anything but a beautiful accompaniment to the sermon and a source of joy or comfort.

  177. @ Marsha:

    that’s great. vive la musique as artistic expression straight from the heart and soul, free from religious rules and exploitation for any other purpose. Inspiration liberation! I might make some placards.

  178. Love this discussion about music in christian gatherings and wished I hadn’t missed it yesterday! I could have replied to so many of these comments but I guess I wouldn’t have gotten anything else done knowing me!

    I agree wholeheartedly that the rock star worship leader doesn’t belong in a place of true worship. It’s good to know that there are some churches at there though who still approach the corporate worship service in a sensitive manner as in Elastigirl’s case. Kudos to you elastigirl! (i’m curious about your moniker – does it mean you are flexible?)

    Speaking of worship, I came across a beautiful song yesterday – in my car that lifted me to a place of personal worship to the Lord, simply through the melody-lyrics and subtle, yet compelling, instrumentation. It shifted me from dwelling on my earthly concerns to thinking about Jesus and who he is to us, to me. I know there are those who analyze the formula to what makes a great worship song and this may have all the strong points, but I get the feeling the song was birthed from a true connection between musician and Savior. There’s lots of room for the Holy Spirit to breath through it and do his job to point to the Son. It’s a song that makes the heart soft. It took me back to my early days when I truly fell in love with Jesus. Worship at that time wasn’t the big machine it has become. It’s the kind of worship that can’t be contrived but is simple like children singing, pure and innocent. It can happen in a church setting if the worship leader/team is sensitive to the Lord and to the people they have the privilege to lead with a heart to bring them into worship with them. Corporate worship can truly be a beautiful gift if it’s done for the right reasons. I certainly don’t miss the hyped-up ‘worship’ service where the leader is chiding the people with “Am I the only one who is worshiping up here? Come on! Put your hands together. . .” Then beat that song to death till we have lift off. It’s where I learned that I refuse to be whipped into a frenzy by anyone – it’s one of my rants.

    What is it about man that we tend to take a pure and simple gift that God gives us and run with it. Thanks God but I’ll take it from here. We turn it into works of the flesh of course in the name of Jesus. How long does it take to realize his presence is gone, that he has quietly left the room? In certain churches methinks he’s been gone for a long time.

  179. @ nkelly:

    “…about your moniker – does it mean you are flexible?”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    and then some. and I can fly a jet.

    all to fight crime in my spare time.

  180. elastigirl wrote:

    @ nkelly:
    “…about your moniker – does it mean you are flexible?”
    +++++++++++++++++++
    and then some. and I can fly a jet.
    all to fight crime in my spare time.

    Well there you go – a woman of many trades!

  181. In keeping with the worship discussion, I came across this lovely blog post by worship leader Paul Baloche written back in 2010 but still applies today to the rockstar culture we live in 5 years later. In it he is encouraging worship leaders to ‘beware of the stage’ and try to hone a more conversational tone when leading worship rather than hyping it up and yelling at people:

    “I would encourage you to lean toward more of a conversational tone in your leading style as you begin your service. People don’t like being yelled at, manipulated, or artificially hyped up. Whether you lead fifty people, three hundred, or more than a thousand, aim for being as authentic and sincere as you can. We don’t have to be overly sanguine. People respond best when they sense someone being themselves. In fact I used to always pray something like this under my breathe before I walked on the platform. “Lord, at the risk of being boring, please give me the courage to be ‘who I am in You’– nothing more, nothing less.” We all battle our insecurities in different ways but practicing our ministry to The Lord and praying for the people we serve will take us a long way in distinguishing between performance and effective ministry.”

    Here’s the link if you want to view the rest of the article – it’s relatively short. http://www.leadworship.com/pauls-blog/beware-of-the-stage/

  182. nkelly wrote:

    “I would encourage you to lean toward more of a conversational tone in your leading style as you begin your service. People don’t like being yelled at, manipulated, or artificially hyped up.

    I agree with everything conclusion in this article by Baloche, I agree with the spirit of it, but I think he gives people far too much credit; i.e., many people I know want to be manipulated, artificially hyped up, and frankly, lied to.

    Some people will not believe you unless you lie to them; many people insist upon the Bigger Than Life, and if they do not get it in a church service, they assume that church is not special enough for them.

    The idea that the Lord often works through other believers, iron sharpening iron, over a period of time, that there are no Great Men, no Brilliant Giants, only regular, flawed people loved by the Lord, having holes in their character that can be complemented by those with whom they’re in fellowship, is anathema to many, probably to virtually all who are drawn to big names and flash.

    The notion that leadership should come from the examples (not compulsion) of older people (elders) who have learned by facing the consequences of their own stupidity through their lives and thus have something to teach younger people, having generally gotten over themselves and selfish ambition, is ridiculous to the follower of flash.

    Many people want to be lied to, they’re drawn to the excitement of young brilliant men, bold new ideas, exclusivity, they worship celebrity. I don’t know how much room is left in such a milieu for Jesus.

  183. I’m in the process of doing some serious number-crunching and analysis of the Pew religious survey.

    Here’s some preliminary findings:

    1. For the first time evangelicals have reached 50% of those Americans who identify themselves as Christian.

    2. The percentage of evangelicals in the following 11 states have increased significantly in the past 7 years: CT, KS, NE, OH, AZ, CO, CA, MT, NV, MD, WV

    3. The percentage of evangelicals decreased significantly in the following 7 states: AR, LA, MS, OK, TX, NC, SC

    4. The percentage of Catholics only grew in 4 states in the past 7 years: AR, SC, AK, and NM.

    5. The percentage of Catholics decreased significantly in 27 states since 2007.

    6. The percentage of Americans who identify as either atheist or agnostic increased from 4% in 2007 to 7.1% today.

    7. Nones are 23% in 2014, up from 16% in 2007. About half of that is the increase in atheists and agnostics.

    8. The average age of evangelicals is 49, up from 47 in 2007. While this is higher than the general population’s average age of 38, the survey only includes adults, so it will skew somewhat older. The unaffiliated (nones) average age is 36, down from 38 in 2007, with atheists & agnostics at 34, the youngest age of any group or faith surveyed.

    9. Mainline Protestantism is in much worse shape numerically and demographically than the evangelicals.

    In conclusion, it’s not a great report for evangelicals, but it’s not the gloom and doom report that much of the media is making it out to be.

  184. @ Law Prof:
    I can argue with you there – I myself wanted to be lied to until the pain of believing a lie was greater than facing the truth about who they were and who I was in my heart.

    On another note, I suppose Paul B. is navigating a culture where he is very well received / extremely successful / but may still be trying to be a voice to those who are seeming to hijack the true worship experience with the rockstar worship leading . . .