Peter Wagner and Mt Everest’s Queen of Heaven: Towards Understanding Groups Like the ARC

"The first step on the way to victory is to recognize the enemy." Corrie Ten Boom link

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=68140&picture=himalayan-mountains
Himalayan Mountains

OK, this one should keep you all occupied over this weekend while I try to get my flowers into window boxes. Google better be ready.

When dealing with Scripture or theology, I approach the Bible on a macro-level. I looked for the big picture. I got tired of going to Bible studies in which we would parse the life out of a single verse. I find that whenever I get confused, the big picture helps me to ask the right questions, especially when something sensational comes up. When it sounds a bit weird or even just a little bit too neat, it is time to think big.

One question to ask is "How do they know this is true?" Then add, "Why do really smart people disagree on this point?" Finally, is the idea clearly expressed in the Bible? If you have never taken a big picture approach to the Bible, I have two suggestions. One is The One Year Chronological Bible. The second is The Story Bible. These helped me to get the big picture and the timing of events.

Finally, if someone advocates an action that sounds a little bizarre take two steps. Look to see if such actions are advocated or demonstrated on a routine basis in the Bible. Secondly, if it sounds weird, it is most likely weird. Trust yourself a bit more. 

This story is going to be a bit bizarre. As I go through the particulars, you may have a number of questions. I plan to write more on this subject in the coming weeks. If you have something you would like me to address, leave it in a comment or email me.

I believe that understanding some of these views on demons will help readers understand groups such as the ARC and the demon exorcism guidelines issues by Chris Hodges at Church of the Highlands and Robert Morris of Gateway Church. I am not saying they are linked but some of the theology between these entities is similar.

C Peter Wagner

I knew of Wagner long before he became the Indiana Jones of the Territorial Demon set. He was well known for his advocacy for third world missions as a professor at Fuller Seminary. This blurb by Wikipedia is essentially accurate. He, along with the New Apostolic Reformation, have  attracted the attention of the national press.

Wagner served as a missionary in Bolivia under the South American Mission and Andes Evangelical Mission (now SIM International) from 1956 to 1971. He then served for 30 years (1971 to 2001) as Professor of Church Growth at the Fuller Theological Seminary's School of World Missions until his retirement in 2001. He is the author of more than 70 books. He was the president of Global Harvest Ministries from 1993 to 2011 and is currently the chancellor emeritus of Wagner Leadership Institute, which serves to train leaders to join in a movement known as the New Apostolic Reformation, an organization Wagner also helped to found. He is currently the vice president of Global Spheres, Inc.

For those who want a quickie summary of the New Apostolic Reformation, once again, Wikipedia gives a good overview. Here is a TWW overview as well. I hope to write more on this in the near future if the boys in certain authority driven churches can keep *incidents* on the down low so I can concentrate on this subject.

The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) is a title used to describe a movement that seeks to establish a fourth house within Christendom, distinct from Catholicism, Protestant Christianity and Orthodox Christianity, largely associated with the Pentecostal and the Charismatic movements. Its fundamental difference from other movements is the belief that the lost offices of church governance, namely the offices of prophet and apostle are being restored.[

As I have read the biographies of those involved in the movement, it appears that Peter Wagner's relationship with John Wimber at Fuller led to the expansion of interest in third world countries and the reported, yet poorly documented miracles in that region of the world. Once again I stress, anecdotal reports with no documentation are not proof. Wimber got involved in all sorts of questionable demonstrations of what he termed as Holy Spirit manifestation such as the Toronto Blessing (Holy Laughter)

In 1974 Wimber joined with Fuller Seminary missiologist C. Peter Wagner in creating the Charles E. Fuller Institute, a church growth organization. While with the Fuller Institute, Wimber became fascinated by reports from the Two/Thirds World recounting the impact of healings and other divine signs and wonders. Through his own study and the influence of theologian George Eldon Ladd, Wimber became convinced that the demonstration of the power of the Gospel through miracles always served to validate the preaching of the Word.

In reviewing deliverance ministries at Equip.org

A third variety arose in what has been called the “third wave of the Holy Spirit,” centering around Fuller Theological Seminary and the Vineyard movement. Well-known leaders have included the late John Wimber, C. Peter Wagner, Charles Kraft, John White, and Wayne Grudem, and distinctive emphases include “signs and wonders,” church growth, and third world missions. This variety is characterized by a more comprehensive and systematic theological rationale that centers on the coming of the kingdom of God and a strong concern for multicultural evangelism. The notion of “territorial spirits” — ruler demons that hold entire cities or regions in bondage to unbelief and sin — is a recent innovation within third wave teaching.Well, as Elvis Presley, that great Southern theologian, sang: A little less talk and a little more action.

OK-that should get you going on the historical background. Now, let's get to the juicy part. When I first heard about some of the beliefs by Peter Wagner, I was shocked since I always thought of him as a missologist. However, his missology rapidly became entangled with scenes from Ghostbusters, Indiana Jones and a Michael Warnke *lecture.*

Confronting the Queen of Heaven (Revised Edition 2001) by C. Peter Wagner.

My short review of this book is best summed up as "Holy Cow!"

Before we begin, I apologize to our Catholic readers for some of the statements Wagner makes about Mary. It should be obvious that I think Wagner is a little out there and that I do not take his claims seriously. I believe it is necessary to expose his *theology* in all of its bizarre permutations.

Brief summary of the book

Ana Mendez, under the guidance of C Peter Wagner, climbs Mount Everest where the Queen of Heaven is supposedly suppressing the gospel from being spread in the region of Turkey. She is to *do battle* so that the QOH (Queen of Heaven) is defeated. This is not a fictional story, folks. As you read this list, see if you can find any of these things in the Bible.

Bullet points from the book

Let's start from the beginning. I am going to list some of Wagner's beliefs that led to this expedition as well as the expedition itself. Numbers in ( ) denote page number in the book which I read cover to cover in a state of astonishment!

  • Wagner says that God is allowing a ministry that surpasses the book of Acts in scope.(7)
  • He states the body of Christ has never been more united and that we are coming to the end of the Great Commission.(8)
  • God is now entrusting his church to carry on spiritual warfare that he has never allowed the church to do before. (8)
  • God is going to release the church to do a massive assault on Satan's kingdom. (8)
  • The 1980s saw prophets assume their rightful positions in churches. In the 1990s apostles began to appear and be legitimized by churches. (I wonder if CJ Mahaney was one of those but I digress.) The 2000s witnessed that the authentic government of the universal church had come into place. With the prophets and apostles in place, God can now give us *high level assignments.* (I always wanted to be in on top secret stuff.)(9)
  • Wagner was one of the founders the International Strategic Prayer Network (ISPN) and he, no surprise here, is the apostolic leader. He says God gave them the assignment for an "advanced, high risk assault" on the powers of evil and, in particular, the Queen of Heaven. (11)
  • He claims that the apostle Paul spent two years engaging in spiritual warfare in Ephesus which is in modern day Turkey. (15)
  • He says there are three levels of spiritual warfare. 
  1.         Ground level: casting demons out of people
  2.         Occult level:  casting out organized (like Martha Stewart?) demons from one person 
  3.         Strategic level: Confronting high-ranking territorial spirits which have been assigned by Satan to coordinate the activities of the   kingdom of darkness over a certain area to keep people's minds blinded to the gospel. (15-17)
  • He describes how the Apostles Paul and John took out Diana, the territorial spirit of Ephesus. He claims that is the reason for so many Christians in present day Turkey.(18-22)
  • He believes that the ancient Moon Goddess is influencing the Middle East (22) and that Diana and the Moon Goddess are manifestations of the Queen of Heaven. (23)
  • He quotes Jeremiah 7:18 which mentions the Queen of Heaven: 

The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes to offer to the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to arouse my anger. (NIV Gateway)and 
Jeremiah 44:17 We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our ancestors, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm.(NIV Gateway) (24)

  • This leads him to believe that unreached people groups are not believes because of the deceptive power of the Queen of Heaven.(25)
  • He claims that Jesus tells us to bind the strong man in Luke 11:22 because the Cross would not fully defeat the powers of darkness.(34)
  • He claims the Ephesians 3:10 tells us to proclaim God's wisdom the to principalities which he believes are territorial spirits. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, (NIV Gateway) (35)
  • He believes that the Crusades caused the Muslims and Jews to reject Christianity and that there is a stronghold in the Middle East due to this. He states that we need to do "identificational repentance." He joined in a Reconciliation Walk in which they apologized to the Jews and Muslims they met. This was one of the few things in this book that I thought had some value. (39)
  • He was told by a friend that he had to pray at the Temple of Diana in Ephesus and the seat of Satan in Pergamum. His wife's body became electric and he was given a new secret name. (42)
  • He claims the altar from the seat of Satan was now in Germany. Better yet, he claims the Hitler used that altar in order to get the occult power he needed to create the Third Reich. (No proof is offered.) (43)
  • He claims that the last place Mary, the mother of Jesus, was seen alive, was in Ephesus. He speculates that the Queen of Heaven performed a deceptive adaptation and became a counterfeit Mary that could do miracles, make appearances, and become the object of worship. (44) 
  • He then states that Mary's name, Theotokos, meaning mother of God, was the church of Rome falling into deception. He says that the public processions honoring Mary are tied into a pagan procession of Cybele who was an ancient deity representing the Queen of Heaven.(45-46). He makes other claims such as the statue of Mary has no hands just like the one of Diana. He also says the most accurate translation of Los Angeles really is "the city of the queen of the angels." (47) (So many jokes that could be made.)
  • He plays up the Mary as Co-Redemptrix petition given to the Pope. Many evangelicals are not aware that this is not an accepted dogma of the Catholic church.  47) From Wikipedia.

Co-Redemptrix is both a title used by some Roman Catholics of Mary, the mother of Jesus and a theological concept, which refers to Mary's role in the redemption of man. It has always been controversial and has never formed part of the dogma of the Church. The term "Co-redemptrix" refers to a subordinate but essential participation by the Blessed Virgin Mary in redemption, notably that she gave free consent to give life to the Redeemer, to share his life, to suffer with him under the cross, to offer his sacrifice to God the Father for the sake of the redemption of mankind. 

Operation Ice Castle (50-58)

One of Wagner's supporters, Ana Mendez, was *shown by God* that one of the major strongholds of darkness was located at Mt Everest in the Himalayas. This was *confirmed* by Peter Wagner and others. She then gathered a team together, along with Wagner's wife Doris, to launch Operation Ice Castle in September of 1997. Ana claimed that God gave her a vision of a huge castle of ice surrounded by mountain peaks which housed high ranking spirits. They made a big deal of the fact that Mt Everest, in Nepali, is Sagarmatha which means "Mother of the Universe." (51)

Some of the intercessors prayed for three weeks at the Everest View Hotel. Others prayed at the Everest Base Camp(18,000 ft) and others prayed at 20,000 feet. (51)

Ana said

Our assignment from God was to take down the foundations of The Great Babylon, the harlot of many waters, who supported the false religious systems of the world. God clearly showed us where we should go for our main prophetic act by revealing a large, brown stone formation  completely surrounded by walls of ice resembling a castle and shaped exactly like an idol of the Queen of Heaven. (52)

Wagner claimed that several unmistakable signs in the natural world *confirmed* this prophetic act had been successful and it affected the invisible world. But, he does not share what these signs might be. He also claimed that Operation Ice Castle was kept a big secret because of the high degree of risk involved. This book is his supposed revelation of this top secret Mission Impossible.

After that expedition, they got another revelation that they were now to move into the Queen of Heaven's palace. They began spiritual mapping (a division of Wagner's Institute). This involves an evaluation what is going on the spiritual world that we cannot see.This mapping supposedly identified a number of locations over which the Queen of Heaven had influence. Those areas were then targeted for prayer action by prophetic intercessors. (55)

Then, the group arranged for tour buses to bring everyone to the amphitheater of Diana in which they prayed and shouted "Jesus is Lord." Apparently there were "outstanding Christina leaders from around the world, headlined by Ted Haggard who was the organizer of this event called Celebration Ephesus.(58). 

This is the end of the book. However, there is another called Operation Queen's Domain in which they do it again! Apparently the Queen of Heaven is still causing trouble. But that is another story for another post.

I did not do much of an assessment on the number of questionable theological thought and religious events that were discussed. I plan to do that at another time. But feel free to discuss it in the comment section. I have left you with plenty of fodder for discussion. 

Comments

Peter Wagner and Mt Everest’s Queen of Heaven: Towards Understanding Groups Like the ARC — 331 Comments

  1. Pingback: Theology-related quote for the day | Civil Commotion

  2. This 2007 document, which is a statistical analysis of climbers on Mount Everest, mentions Ana Mendez and her “team.” I will quote page 39 since some people may be on cell phones and not want to download the entire document. The upshot is, whatever Mendez or C. Peter Wagner claim, she and her people are not claimed as among those who ascended Everest by a woman who makes it her business to document such things.

    The Hallelujah Summit?

    From The Seasonal Stories of Elizabeth Hawley – Autumn 1997

    A planned climb that did not actually happen was an attempt on Everest from the Nepalese side by three Mexicans and a Costa Rican under the leadership of Mrs. Ana Mendez from Mexico City. Their expedition was called Summit for Peace – Everest 1997, and their intention was to pray at the highest point on earth for peace in the world and against poverty. As Mrs. Mendez explained, “The top of the world is a symbol of the world. By standing on the top of the world, I intercede with God for the world.” She said that 50 million people around the world from a large number of Christian organizations would pray with her team as they held a brief ceremony on the summit. She acknowledged that none of the four climbing members including herself had known much about climbing one year before, so they had done some “intensive training” in Mexico and Peru.

    However Mrs. Mendez never received a permit from the Nepalese authorities to set foot on Everest, and her party never moved above base camp. She claimed her Kathmandu trekking agent robbed her; the agent said she never produced the funds for the permit and instead made a concerted effort to convince officials that disasters would strike Nepal if they could not pray at the summit, and they should not be charged any fee for their vital services to the country; the tourism ministry said no permit was issued because only part of the $50,000 royalty fee was offered by a representative of the team (not the agent).

    So Mrs. Mendez’s group fascinated others at base camp by their unprecedented activities. One Spanish leader reported that they explained their goal was to take the devil away from the summit of Everest so that God could come to Nepal and the Hindu and Buddhist people of Nepal could be evangelized. They wrote with an ice axe on seracs near base camp “Jesus Lives,” and they made an altar in the ice at which they prayed every day. Even before they reached base camp, they were praying, he said: it took them six hours to travel the final normal one hour’s walk into camp because they frequently fell on their knees in prayer. They found a big hole on the way to camp, and they said this was the gateway to Hell; they prayed to God to close it. (He did not.) When they didn’t receive their climbing permit, they declared that they realized base camp was just as good a site as the summit for their purposes.

    http://www.himalayandatabase.com/downloads/HimalayaByNbrs.pdf

    Rather reminds me of the “Transformations” video from about the same period by George Otis, which claimed that spiritual darkness had been driven out of Hemet, California. In that same time period, Scientology had rented out two apartment complexes (yes, complexes) right in Hemet and it wasn’t until the work was done on Gold Base some years later that they finally moved those who hadn’t blown for good out there behind the concertina-wired fences.

  3. For some reason I had the Church Lady’s “hmmmm… well isn’t that special” in my head while reading this…

  4. @ srs:
    You cannot make this stuff up! And Deb told me she was worried we wouldn’t have enough to write about when we started this in 2009!

  5. Dee,

    You’ve done a lot of work here, but I’m wondering why. Is this something that Christians are chasing after? This has “cult” written all over it.

  6. This is the most bizarro world thing I have ever read. I have heard these names and of Vineyard but paid little attention. The “queen of heaven” confused me so I did a bit of a search in the OT:

    16 “Therefore do not pray for this people, nor lift up a cry or prayer for them, nor make intercession to Me; for I will not hear you. 17 Do you not see what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger. 19 Do they provoke Me to anger?” says the Lord. “Do they not provoke themselves, to the shame of their own faces?”

    I wonder if that is what they base it on?

  7. Wow. Ted Haggard, Peter Wagner, and Wayne Grudem in the same post. Where to begin?

    I have heard via the History Channel that Hitler or some of his people were into the occult, but cannot recall the particulars. I’ve read elsewhere that there is an altar from Pergamum in Germany, but I don’t know the significance since I did not follow up on that point and don’t know if Hitler brought it there for religious purposes or if it was just part of his looting of cultural artifacts.

    There are some Roman Catholics who do refer to Mary as the Queen of Heaven. There is a shrine to Mary, Queen of Heaven near Orlando. Many years ago I was in a mass at a Catholic church in SW Florida which was sponsoring a trip to the shrine. Some time later I saw the shrine for myself, but I don’t know if it still exists. IIRC Pope John Paul II referred to Mary as the Co-Redemptrix, and there are some Catholics who believe that in the strong sense. There are also Catholics in my family who do *not* believe that.

    I have heard that Mary lived in Ephesus, but considered that to be along the lines of the tradition that Thomas went to India. Maybe and maybe not, but so what? There is no doubt that there was a huge temple to Ephesian Artemis at Ephesus, but I’m pretty sure she moved out after the last big earthquake. Could some people in Turkey have “adopted” Mary, the mother of Jesus to replace Ephesian Artemis when Christianity became the imperial religion? Certainly syncretistic religions are nothing new. I think the real Mary would be appalled by that.

    I’ve also witnessed a procession for Mary in Meersburg in in southern Germany. I remember being exhausted only to find that the beds in the lovely family hotel were basically slabs. In a bit of serendipity there was a festival for Mary that day or the next (can’t remember) which was quite lovely with flowers decorating the pavement. But frankly the whole thing, and especially the 3-D image of Mary, was creepy. I could not square that with the Mary portrayed in the gospels. The Roman Catholics I know do not believe in that kind of thing, even the ones at the church that sponsored the trip to the shrine.

    There is also no doubt that there were female goddess cults in Israel. I’ve seen examples of the idols to the fertility goddesses recovered from the City of David and at Megiddo.

    I think there are demonic powers, and they may have areas of influence or “rule.” However, we are not called to climb Mount Everest or perform other such stunts. I do remember the Power Evangelism and the Third Wave coming out of Fuller and also the Toronto and Lakeland “outpourings.” And I have had some interaction with people connected to IHOP. Gramp3 has been to the Himalayas, but he didn’t see Mary there. Mostly it was just sad to see the people flying flags, like at a used car lot, to get the attention of the gods.

    I have no idea how these folks have connected these dots in this way or why they have done so. To the best of my knowledge, SIM did not promote this theology, and they should know something about third world evangelism. Power religions are nothing new. What *is* unique about Christianity is that it is the Way of Christ which is about laying down power and becoming a servant rather than seizing power or declaring power over another. He is the one with the power and authority, and chanting his name as a mantra just strikes me as silly or worse.

  8. @ Ted:

    In fact, the basis for lots of thinking about demons comes directly out of the NAR movement. That is why I put the tie in to the ARC. What I hope to do is bring in the tie ins to lots of *acceptable* churches who spout doctrine that has its basis in some of this theory.

    Take a look at Chris Hodges prayer team beliefs at Church of the Highlands in Birmingham. Some of the assumptions will seem strangely similar if you have read thru this post.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/11/19/where-have-all-the-flowers-gone-demons-tongues-and-healings-at-chris-hodges-church-of-the-highlands-arc/

    I am mostly interested in how things get the way they are in churches. I believe that a basic understanding of Wagner’s NAR will help trace the origins of some current thinking.

  9. @ Ted:

    C. Peter Wagner is extremely important in NAR circles. I don’t have the documentation on hand at the moment, but if you Google his name with the phrase NAR, you will get more information than you ever wanted to have. Talk2Action has done a lot about the NAR too (though more in the vein of analyzing their political connections).

  10. @ Gram3:

    Ted Haggard, Peter Wagner, and Wayne Grudem in the same post. Where to begin?

    That was my reaction too. I had no idea Grudem was even peripherally/nominally connected to anything Wagner-related. I don’t know about anyone else, but that doesn’t give me good feels. Hopefully this is a case like Tim Keller and the Baylys both being in the PCA. *fingers crossed*

  11. You know, Dee, when you said some stuff in the comments a few days ago about C. Peter Wagner and the “Queen of Heaven,” I thought, “Hmm, the Queen of Heaven is usually Mary. I’ve also heard her called the Queen of Angels and Queen of Apostles. Wagner must be ripping off this title and applying it to something else entirely.”

    And then I get here and read this and he’s actually applying it to Mary after all. (Well, a demon-goddess masquerading as Mary. Wouldn’t want to omit that crucial detail.)

    So, yeah. Wow.

    Ana Mendez, under the guidance of C Peter Wagner, climbs Mount Everest where the Queen of Heaven is supposedly suppressing the gospel from being spread in the region of Turkey.

    Why is the MaryDemon oppressing Turkey, in the Himalayas? Shouldn’t she be in…Turkey? Or in Rome? Or, like, anywhere else that would have a more logical connection to Turkey or Mary than Mt. Everest? Or is Satan just that extremely inefficient kind of guy? Or maybe he flunked Earth geography in angel school.

  12. Vineyard churches and the Toronto blessing, now that is a blast from my past. After we left the AoG, the church we went to became Vineyard affiliated. Fun article Dee, I’d forgotten all the spiritual warfare dominion stuff.

  13. @ mirele:

    So Mrs. Mendez’s group fascinated others at base camp by their unprecedented activities. One Spanish leader reported that they explained their goal was to take the devil away from the summit of Everest so that God could come to Nepal and the Hindu and Buddhist people of Nepal could be evangelized. They wrote with an ice axe on seracs near base camp “Jesus Lives,” and they made an altar in the ice at which they prayed every day. Even before they reached base camp, they were praying, he said: it took them six hours to travel the final normal one hour’s walk into camp because they frequently fell on their knees in prayer. They found a big hole on the way to camp, and they said this was the gateway to Hell; they prayed to God to close it.

    I would pay good money to see the expressions on the faces of the Sherpas and the other climbers witnessing these activities.

  14. Hester wrote:

    I would pay good money to see the expressions on the faces of the Sherpas and the other climbers witnessing these activities.

    I’m sure that was why Ms. Hawley and others were bemused by these strange people!

    Another interesting thing…the Hawley account only mentions five people: four Mexicans and one Costa Rican. Doris Wagner is not mentioned at all. I wonder if Wagner stayed in Kathmandu, or the United States and did her praying from afar.

  15. dee wrote:

    This is why I love having you comment on our blog. Thank you.

    Thank you. Whenever there’s a story like this (or that Transformations thing), I just know it’s not all it’s made out to be. With the Internet, it’s possible to get a better idea of what actually happened.

    I don’t doubt unexplainable things are happening in this world, but I’ve learned over the years there’s a leg lengthening trick*, that the “tongues” in “speaking in tongues” are not this-worldly languages and “gold dust, jewels and angel feathers” discussed breathlessly at later church meetings probably came from a craft store. And while I might be outside the church, none of what I just mentioned has anything to do with Jesus’ message.

    * I can’t even begin to tell you how disappointed I was when I found out a leg lengthening I’d witnessed was likely fake and done to give the new family at church some cachet.

  16. first things first a few things really stuck out even before i got halfway through the article #1-being a personal opinion so take it for what it is worth :p and that is that the offices of prophet and apostle in regard to overall church governance are not lost by any means, they remain unfilled by men OR women because God himself simply hasn’t raised up anyone to fill those roles and should God see fit to do so for whatever reason then i think He is fully capable of doing that all on His own and you WILL know that he is behind it. you just do not claim a title for yourself and especially one having to do with the governance of Gods church, i suppose in being honest i can be a proud man but that just smacks of pride on a whole other level. #2-Mt.Everest is nowhere near turkey as in not even on the same continent!

  17. @ Hester:
    I’ve always thought it odd that Grudem was into the Vineyard movement. The idea of continuing prophecy has created a bit of dissonance for Grudem since women are recorded as prophesying. Thus the invention of fallible or non-authoritative prophecy. He twists himself into pretzels over this issue. In a debate with Ian Hamilton, IIRC, Hamilton schooled him. But have no fear, Grudem is not tethered to a small mind and its desire for consistency. Or principle. It is interesting that MacArthur resolves that tension by denying an ongoing gift of prophecy while Grudem denies the authority/infallibility of prophecy.

    I keep my copy of his ST in front of a pesky blue led light in my bedroom which I cannot turn off. No, seriously, I do. So, it is useful to that extent.

    I did not know that the Baylys are (still) in the PCA and just assumed that Good Shepherd had become its own split P. I wonder why Kamilla, the Former Rabid Feminist, doesn’t visit here at TWW? I see her around the web from time to time.

  18. dee wrote:

    I am mostly interested in how things get the way they are in churches. I believe that a basic understanding of Wagner’s NAR will help trace the origins of some current thinking.

    This whole site is devoted to the NAR. I have her two books and am currently reading the one entitled “A New Apostolic Reformation.”

    http://www.spiritoferror.org/category/modern-apostles-and-prophets

    You’ll find a vast amount of information on that web site.

  19. Lydia wrote:

    This is the most bizarro world thing I have ever read. I have heard these names and of Vineyard but paid little attention. The “queen of heaven” confused me so I did a bit of a search in the OT:

    16 “Therefore do not pray for this people, nor lift up a cry or prayer for them, nor make intercession to Me; for I will not hear you. 17 Do you not see what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger. 19 Do they provoke Me to anger?” says the Lord. “Do they not provoke themselves, to the shame of their own faces?”

    I wonder if that is what they base it on?

    Probably. Though the only time I’ve actually heard denunciations of “the Queen of Heaven” they always referred to St Mary.

    “Christian killeth Christian in a narrow dusty room;
    Christian dreadeth Christ who hath a newer face of doom;
    Christian hateth Mary whom God kissed in Galilee…”
    — G.K.Chesterton, “Lepanto”

  20. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Probably. Though the only time I’ve actually heard denunciations of “the Queen of Heaven” they always referred to St Mary.

    I think that when THC and I went around and around about this that he/she based his/her view of Mary as the Queen of Heaven on the imagery in Revelation. I think I mentioned that it wasn’t a good idea to associate the Mary of the gospels with the Queen of Heaven idea because of what Jeremiah says.

    It would be interesting to me to see how the doctrines of Mary developed in the RCC and the way that the reactions against those doctrines developed in the Protestant churches. ISTM that we Protestants have diminished Mary’s obedience and faithfulness and her suffering as a mother. I honestly do not know if that occurred independently or in reaction to the RCC. I also think that same humble servant of God who is revealed in the gospels would be mortified by some of the things done to honor her.

  21. There are so many crazy theologies out there that it feels like a part-time job to keep track of them enough to make sure one doesn’t get sucked into a crazy church. Do certain denominations manage to avoid most of the craziness?

  22. @ Gram3:

    I wonder why Kamilla, the Former Rabid Feminist, doesn’t visit here at TWW?

    Don’t speak about her…if you say her name too many times she might hear you…

  23. Oh my gosh. This was like a blast from the past for me. My childhood church was a weird mixture of Gothard and shepherding and really fringe stuff like this, including annual trips to see Mike Warnke perform in the nearest city. Digging deeply into these belief systems can truly buy you a one-way ticket to Crazyland.

    This stuff is right up there with biblical numerology, bibliomancy, and religious hallucinations (all of which were on the regular at our church). One woman, a former Catholic from Mexico, often believed she smelled roses while praying, and associated that with Mary (although she was careful about sharing that with The Powers That Be). Hal Lindsey and later on, the Left Behind books and the idea of demon possession and casting-out were all wrapped up in this, too. I am not proud to admit that I was the subject of an IFB-style exorcism as a teenager.

    As an aside, my given name is the Greek version of “Moon Goddess,” and I am gravely disappointed that I have been wholly unsuccessful in influencing the Middle East as a manifestations of the Queen of Heaven. To whom should I register my displeasure?

  24. “I hope to write more on this in the near future if the boys in certain authority driven churches can keep *incidents* on the down low so I can concentrate on this subject.”

    That is a beautiful quote.

    You just hit pay dirt with C.Peter wagner and the NAR. May I suggest shifting the focus away somewhat from the angry (and no longer quite as young) Neo-Calvinist networks and more towards the NAR.

    As massive an influence as the Reform Networks have and do have, the NAR is the way of the future.It is only in it’s early stages yet is the product of an incredibly long gestation.

    It is a result of recent hybridization of different types of leaven. (an older word for yeast) These different “leavens” were comprised of doctrines from The Latter Rain Movement, certain Neo- Calvinist teachings and a few surprises tossed in as well. In turn, they themselves developed over time and had earlier sources in church history.

    Our Lord commanded us to beware of three types of leaven. I am convinced it does or soon will contain all three. It is a leaven or yeast infection on the Body of Christ and will be one of the four remaining groupings of the Church at the end of the Church Age.

  25. Hester wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    I wonder why Kamilla, the Former Rabid Feminist, doesn’t visit here at TWW?

    Don’t speak about her…if you say her name too many times she might hear you…

    Just like La Llorona

  26. lemonaidfizz wrote:

    Oh my gosh. This was like a blast from the past for me. My childhood church was a weird mixture of Gothard and shepherding and really fringe stuff like this, including annual trips to see Mike Warnke perform in the nearest city. Digging deeply into these belief systems can truly buy you a one-way ticket to Crazyland.

    Same here. Shepherding plus The Gospel According to Hal Lindsay/Christians for Nuclear War.

    As an aside, my given name is the Greek version of “Moon Goddess,” and I am gravely disappointed that I have been wholly unsuccessful in influencing the Middle East as a manifestations of the Queen of Heaven. To whom should I register my displeasure?

    “Lemonaidfizz” = Diana or Selene?

    Never mind these Mighty Spiritual Warriors going after St Mary or you — I’d like to hoax them into going after Princess Celestia.

  27. Thank you for covering this topic. Your ARC connection is very real and is more prevalent than folks might think. Gateway Church in Texas recently created their own NAR department in 2014 by promoting TD Jakes’ protege, Tim Ross, to Executive Pastor of their newly formed Apostolic Ministries http://gatewaypeople.com/profiles/tim-ross. They bagged the controversial NAR label for the softer AM, but they serve the same purpose and master http://apprising.org/2012/02/26/robert-morris-teams-up-with-hybels-noble-and-word-faith-preacher-tim-ross/ Tim flunked out of bible college after one semester, had a severe addiction to pornography for many years and was a stand-up comedian in L.A. which evidently qualified him to be a pastor at TD Jakes’ Potter’s House. Tim uses all kinds of stand-up sound effects (he only uses mics not headsets) as he channels God, the Holy Spirit, every time he speaks. He will say a sentence, then interrupt himself saying, “thank you Holy Spirit” as he then spits out God’s direct revelations for his crowd like a cheap carnival fortune teller.
    .
    Just two weeks ago he led Gateway’s young adult retreat channeling God. And today at Pink Impact (GW’s massive women’s conference) GatewayPINK Tweeted “we’re excited to have @PsTimRoss taking the stage! Get ready to laugh ladies while getting a download from The Lord” and “it’s time to find your seats! Who is ready for an impartation from the Holy Spirit this morning?” Tim the comedian did, between jokes, engage in impartations and revelations over several thousand women – with another few thousand coming next week. I hope TWW will cover the dangers of impartations in a post.
    .
    Ted Haggard’s church at the time of your story above was New Life which has GW as their oversight. Tim Ross and GW Worship are headlining the E-21 Jerusalem 2015 conference in May seeking to convert the entire world to Pentecostalism by the time of the Second Pentecost in 2033. Robert Morris’ big demon possession book Truly Free from Thomas Nelson also drops on May 12th. You can read how Peter, Job and King Ahab were all possessed by demons. If only Morris had been their pastor!
    .
    This is all coming from the THIRD largest church in the United States that claims their teachings are seen in over 100,000,000 homes! This false doctrine is dangerous and Morris seeks to legitimize it and take it mainstream. Stand tough Deebs!

  28. I can see how there is a grain of truth in some of the stuff this guy believes or is teaching, but one thing I’ve picked up on is a lot of Christians do this-

    They will take one verse, one passage, or a biblical concept, and blow it way, way out of proportion, going much further with it than God ever did or intended, to the point they are teaching really goofy ideas.

    The Old Testament, and I think one part of the New, does mention that some cities on earth have spirits which rule over them or something (see Daniel 10:12,13).

    “identificational” – that sounds like a made up word.

    “he claims the Hitler used that altar in order to get the occult power he needed to create the Third Reich. (No proof is offered.)”

    That was never documented in any of the Indiana Jones movies, so I feel pretty safe disregarding that. 🙂

    “His wife’s body became electric” – okay then.

    “Operation Ice Castle …Ana claimed that God gave her a vision of a huge castle of ice surrounded by mountain peaks”

    This sounds similar to Superman’s Fortress of Solitude. I wonder if Ana had visions of Lex Luthor too?

    I know that the Bible mentions there is a spiritual realty that humans cannot see (unless God unveils there eyes), but… it looks to me like these guys are way too preoccupied with all this.

    Jesus called his followers to help each other out, spread the Gospel, and help folks out where they could (such as giving food to the poor).

    I don’t recall spiritual warfare in the NT being defined as standing in ancient ruins screaming “Jesus is Lord” or looking for ice sculptures of the Queen of Heaven.

  29. My post above: “unveils there eyes” should be “their eyes.”

    Regarding the second (new) trailer for the upcoming Star Wars VII in the original post.

    I am looking forward to the new Star Wars movie. I hope Abrams doesn’t mess it up the way the prequels were kind of bad, but Abrams did a good job (IMHO) with the Star Trek reboot, so I am optimistic about the new Star Wars.

    I am thrilled to see Chewbacca and Han Solo back!

  30. @ dee

    You’re right, it is impossible to make this stuff up.
    Let’s face it, many of the folks who come up with this stuff are as crazy as outhouse rats.

  31. @ LT:

    Thank you for your comment. I have not forgotten the ARC, demons, and all sorts of other things. We keep getting sidetracked with other stories. I plan to return to this topic on a regular basis.

    We are anticipating a big story coming out of your neck of the woods in the next week. We will need to cover the ramifications of that. However, we will get back to this topic as well.

    Any Mark Driscoll sitings at Gateway recently?

  32. nathan Priddis wrote:

    As massive an influence as the Reform Networks have and do have, the NAR is the way of the future.It is only in it’s early stages yet is the product of an incredibly long gestation.

    I am going to agree with you here. I believe that their influence has been building and theology in many churches has been affected by their quiet influence.. Ask any person in today’s churches about territorial spirits/demons. I bet you would find that many folks in supposedly “doctrinally sound churches believe in such things.

    I think it has been below the radar even though some of its peculiar beliefs are commonly accepted. For another example-take generational curses. (Please!)

    We will be covering more of this but the Calvinist fellas are out there imposing their strange views on church discipline, etc. So, we have a major story about to break on that matter in about a week.Please bear with us when we discuss it. I promise that you will find it quite surprising and informative.

    Then, we will leap back to NAR and some pretty interesting stuff. So many weird stories; so little time…

  33. mirele wrote:

    I wonder if Wagner stayed in Kathmandu, or the United States and did her praying from afar.

    I do not think he was there but perhaps someone else can correct me. His wife stayed in a hotel but they made sure to say that she had no heat and she had to have two knees replaced when she returned to the US. I just shook my head as I read that part of the book.

  34. Dee, I hope you’re not having to deal with frost and freeze advisories like we are in the Washington, DC area. That won’t help your flowers.

    The Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship, now known as Catch the Fire Toronto, disassociated from the Vineyard movement in the mid-1990’s. It’s unclear whether they left voluntarily or were kicked out. However, it says something that even John Wimber thought they went too far.

  35. I hope I don’t lose it spiritually when I get up to my final years. Or, if I do, I hope I don’t have any kind of platform to stand on. Let me rattle away on porch bench at the Old Folks Home and kindly ignore me.

    Wagner, Pat Robertson, Jimmy Carter, the list goes on. It is sad. There are just some leaders who I wish would quietly accept retirement from any kind of spiritual leadership, admitting that their mind isn’t as sharp as it used to be. Or, as a second option, that those around them would have enough compassion to respectfully encourage them to bow out of the limelight.

    While I admire Wagner’s active imagination, he should use it to write fiction instead of claiming new spiritual truths. Can’t we just enjoy a simple relationship with God without trying to turn it into a super-hero, action-adventure, paranormal extravaganza?

  36. Oh, my above comment about losing it with age, wasn’t meant to impugn the mental abilities of all seniors. (I’m already getting my own AARP offers in the mail.) I’m in a men’s group led by a retired family and marriage counselor who is well into his 80s, but he quietly has a faithful walk with God without out these attempts at trying to keep the spotlight on himself.

    I’m just saddened by how far Wagner has gone off the tracks, so to say.

  37. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    I can act out my Indiana Jones and my John Constantine fantasies

    Don’t encourage them. We already have had the Ultimate Fighting Churches. They will turn church into a another Disney fun ride, complete with fake alligators that the pastor will shoot with his fake gun. “Jungle Ride Church, for the Adventurous Souls”

  38. dee wrote:

    When dealing with Scripture or theology, I approach the Bible on a macro-level. I looked for the big picture. I got tired of going to Bible studies in which we would parse the life out of a single verse.

    Great words of wisdom. I confess that one of the that evidence of wisdom is when I agree.
    My problem is the whole premise of NAR, there should be no “offices” in the church lost because there were none to begin with. There are only giftings and ways to serve the body of believers. Offices were created by men to usurp authority. Which begs the question:
    “Do they abuse?”

    I quoted the question because I sure someone asked this above (HUG?) but I can’t seem to find it again. Did it disappear? Is it a conspiracy?

  39. dee wrote:

    Any Mark Driscoll sitings at Gateway recently?

    Thanks for sticking with it. Looking forward to next week’s post. No Driscoll sightings. Folks thought he might show up for the GW Men’s Alpha Summit in March which is about all things manly. With the Duck Dynasty boys there it should have been irresistible. But no Markie-Mark. There is a smaller Pastor’s Conference coming up in May, but no one famous will be there. I know a few people who work every service on the weekends and they say there have been no sightings of him since October. Mark DeMoss dropped him as a client so maybe the bloom has withered a bit in the wake of potential RICO charges.

    The latest sighting that people are looking for is Josh Hamilton. Who gets his 10% tithe in the wake of the divorce?! Is there more money with Team Josh or Team Katie? He and his wife were scheduled to speak about godly marriages at Gateway on Jimmy Evans’ Valentine’s Day Marriage XO Conference simulcast, right up through January 2015, when they silently scratched them from the venue. Great discernment Jimmy! Apparently the tithing committee didn’t see this coming. They should have asked Tim “Carnac the Magnificent” Ross to foretell that one.

  40. Bill M wrote:

    But do they abuse their people?
    It was on the other thread linked in this post.
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/11/21/what-is-the-new-apostolic-reformation-nar/comment-page-1/#comment-167000
    A good question Headless Unicorn Guy. Is it headless, HUG?

    That post opens with C Peter Wagner claiming that the NAR is not a cult because they believe in the Apostle’s Creed. This “I am one of you” act is a classic con artist move. Its like a drug dealer who drives around with an “I Support Local Police” sticker on his back window, hoping the cops won’t search his trunk It’s about misdirection and inoculation.

    This “Apostles Creed Gambit” is a trick to fool you. Look, the Mormons believe in Jesus and the bible. You have to watch for the ADDITIONAL THINGS that they believe that contradict the bible. Same with the NAR. It’s the extra-biblical things that are so dangerous.

    The organizer of the pagan temple screamers, Ted Haggard’s New Life Church (of Desperation Band fame) has the Apostle’s Creed painted as a giant mural on their wall. Although GW Pastor Brady Boyd now helms the scandal ridden church, he still fully embraces this movement and is a prophet who routinely prophecies over people’s futures in both warm and cold readings alike. These churches are sneaky. They dress themselves up in terms like “non-denominational” and paint the Apostle’s Creed on the wall, all while teaching heresy, thumping on Daystar and TBN and organizing screaming rituals inside of pagan temples. Caveat Emptor.

  41. For realz. Don’t disturb the blog queens:

    I hope to write more on this in the near future if the boys in certain authority driven churches can keep *incidents* on the down low so I can concentrate on this subject.

    This one had me LOLing. Too funny!

    Gram3 wrote:

    I wonder why Kamilla, the Former Rabid Feminist, doesn’t visit here at TWW? I see her around the web from time to time.

    Kamilla? Oh no, please leave me out of it.

  42. Bill M wrote:

    there should be no “offices” in the church lost because there were none to begin with. There are only giftings and ways to serve the body of believers.

    Exactly! My suggestion is that we stop ALL the nonsense and concentrate our efforts on simply loving God and loving our neighbour. Time enough to worry about queens (of heaven or otherwise) when we’ve got that down pat 😉

  43. @ Daisy:

    Operation Ice Castle …Ana claimed that God gave her a vision of a huge castle of ice surrounded by mountain peaks

    Maybe the “Queen of Heaven” is really Elsa. In which case Wagner should probably just let it go.

  44. LT wrote:

    That post opens with C Peter Wagner claiming that the NAR is not a cult because they believe in the Apostle’s Creed.

    Back in the Seventies, Christianese Cult Watch groups defined Cult(TM) entirely by theology, not by abusive behavior towards their pew-sitters. While the Cult-sniffers were parsing theology letter-by-letter and Pronouncing them Clean, said Not-a-Cults were still abusing their people, and using the Cult-sniffers’ Clean Bill of Health as another weapon of abuse.

    I’ve seen this from the inside. I got stuck in a One True Fellowship Shepherding Not-a-cult back then; their theology was the same as the Cult-sniffers (i.e. SCRIPTURE SCRIPTURE SCRIPTURE) with a side order of Hal Lindsay & Watchman Nee.

  45. LT wrote:

    The organizer of the pagan temple screamers, Ted Haggard’s New Life Church (of Desperation Band fame) has the Apostle’s Creed painted as a giant mural on their wall.

    “Pagan temple screamers”?
    There’s gotta be a story behind that one.

    Oh, Ted Haggard. Whose preaching out-Fred Phelpsed Fred Phelps until he got caught doing meth with a male prostie, then bailed out of his denom to start his own cult. (And probably kept the rentboys, just hid it a lot better.)

  46. Bill M wrote:

    A good question Headless Unicorn Guy. Is it headless, HUG?

    You don’t need to have a “head” to have an abusive cult.

    Groupthink consensus can work just as well as an identified cult leader.

  47. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “Pagan temple screamers”?
    There’s gotta be a story behind that one.

    P.S. “Pagan Temple Screamers” would also make a great weird name for a band.

    Right up there with “Crazy Children in the Attic” and “Fetuses of the Damned”.

  48. So many thousands of people for whom Christ died, sucked into things like the NAR. I wonder how many will eventually leave in disillusionment to join the ranks of the Dones and the Nones? Some will probably remain with the deception. I guess all we can do is keep putting the truth out here on the internet in the hope that some will find it.

  49. Hester wrote:

    Maybe the “Queen of Heaven” is really Elsa. In which case Wagner should probably just let it go.

    You beat me to it! Now I will have that song in my head all day long!

  50. LT wrote:

    That post opens with C Peter Wagner claiming that the NAR is not a cult because they believe in the Apostle’s Creed.

    Perhaps he is still operating off the belief that cults are strictly about abhorrent theology. This is the view taught in seminaries for so long. Of course his theology is bonkers and the really cultish part is that he thinks saying it is not gives it credibility? :o)

  51. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    WELL I AM IN. Totally. Imagine a religion where I can act out my Indiana Jones and my John Constantine fantasies! Someone please, please tell me where to sign up!

    LOL!

    And think of all the possibilities for women! You have evil queens and fiery prophetess’! This is better than Doug Phillips’ costumed reenactments of medieval knights and damsels.

  52. singleman wrote:

    However, it says something that even John Wimber thought they went too far.

    I did not know that. And you are correct. Kimber got into some really weird stuff. I will never forget reading an account that during the Holy Laughter time, a group of people were moved to cluck and walk like chickens, including the people on the stage. I will find the account and link to it. It totally shocked me and this was before i got into reading about all this stuff.

    It was quite cold last night. My lobelias look a little wilted this AM but they should survive.

  53. EricL wrote:

    Wagner, Pat Robertson, Jimmy Carter, the list goes on. It is sad. There are just some leaders who I wish would quietly accept retirement from any kind of spiritual leadership, admitting that their mind isn’t as sharp as it used to be.

    I wish it was just those who were older. This stuff has sunk into the mainstream. Chris Hodges is relatively young. Look what this director of the ARC teaches at his church.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/11/19/where-have-all-the-flowers-gone-demons-tongues-and-healings-at-chris-hodges-church-of-the-highlands-arc/

  54. EricL wrote:

    They will turn church into a another Disney fun ride, complete with fake alligators that the pastor will shoot with his fake gun. “Jungle Ride Church, for the Adventurous Souls”

    I’d show up at least once for that. Can you imagine the selfies you could get?

  55. Bill M wrote:

    Great words of wisdom. I confess that one of the that evidence of wisdom is when I agree.

    Nice way to start off the weekend!!! 🙂

    Bill M wrote:

    Offices were created by men to usurp authority. Which begs the question:
    “Do they abuse?”

    True

    And you can be sure I never delete a comment unless asked to do so or I suddenly realize that someone what channeling Driscoll in the guise of William Wallace 2. WhenI do, I leave a comment in the thread.

    So, if a comment disappeared and I don’t know about it, it must be due to the Queen of Heaven who is so despondent over her defeat on Mt Everest that she has come over the challenge the Queens of the blog.

  56. LT wrote:

    ith the Duck Dynasty boys there it should have been irresistible.

    You know, that remark could make a great post. All the boys over at the Gospel™ Coalition are quite enamored of the DD boys. A few of them have even grown beards in solidarity. This has an interesting angle. The DD boys, held up by TGC, he purveyor of all things proper when it comes to theology, are friends and supporters of Robert Morris. This has play.

    Do you have any links to the talks, etc?

  57. @ Hester:
    Nope. They (Op. Ice Castle people) believe that Princess Diana and Mother Teresa died as a result of their prayers. Please dsee relevant article on Talk2action.or, titled Killing Mother Teresa with Their Prayers.

    Would post a link, but am using phone… maybe later, though.

    And yes, they assert that both Princess Di and Mother Teresa were minions of their mythical QOH.

  58. LT wrote:

    lthough GW Pastor Brady Boyd now helms the scandal ridden church, he still fully embraces this movement and is a prophet who routinely prophecies over people’s futures in both warm and cold readings alike.

    You are the Queen of all things GW! I did not know this either!

    Let me explain why this stuff is important. One person asked a good question early on. He asked why I focused on this since it sounds rather cult like. One goal of TWW is to draw links between groups so people can understand how strange theology enters the church.

    For example, even today in some TGC churches, one hears sermons about the pastor being the shepherd and the congregation being the sheep. Then, said pastor goes on to talk about stupid sheep. This sort of thinking comes out of the 1970s when the shepherding movement grew and became abusive. In self styled theologically sound churches we have the remnants of abusive theology.

    Now, let’s look at Haggard’s church. Before his cocaine/male prostitute dustup, he was the head of the National Association of Evangelicals, something which absolutely astounds me, considering his weird theology to begin with.The NAE is considered mainstream which means that something is wrong with that group for allowing such a leader.

    I had heard the new pastor of Haggard’s church was more mainstream. Now you tell me he is a chronically demon possessed man that must be exorcised on a regular basis! Good night!

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/12/01/arcs-robert-morris-paul-preached-under-the-influence/

    Again, that fact is fascinating and will need to be incorporated into a post in the future. Help me remember to do so.

  59. @ NJ:
    I am a None who was around FAR too much of this garbsge in the 90s-early 00s. And if anything, it gets SO MUCH weirder. This post merely scratches the surface.

  60. Gram3 wrote:

    wonder why Kamilla, the Former Rabid Feminist, doesn’t visit here at TWW? I see her around the web from time to time.

    Oh, she has. I have tried to reach out to her and we found some common ground on Driscoll. However, she does not believe the victims in the SGM scandal. In fact, she really has a thing about child sex abuse victims who lie. She believes they lie as a default.

    There is one thing I cannot tolerate and that is berating victims of abuse. Since stats show the children lie only 2-4% of the time, and most of those do so in divorce tug of wars, I believe the victims. She is still stuck on the Satanic ritual abuse of 20 years ago. She will now acknowledge how the system for assessing abuse has changed.

    Since there is no changing her opinion, i have defaulted to “Bless your heart, have a nice day.”

  61. @ numo:
    In other words, the NAE was (imo) a seething cauldron of weirdness at that time. And i think Jeff Sharlet, who wrote a very good, incisive wrticle about Haggard and his church shortly before Hwggwrd’s fall from grace, would agree.

    I have a PDF of it somewhere, just in case you’re interested. Nobody in Colorado Springs was willing to talk with him about Wagner’s World Prayer Center.

  62. After doing research about Mount Everest, it was weird to wake up this morning and see that an enormous and destructive (7.8 or 7.9) earthquake hit Nepal, devastating Kathmandu, and apparently starting an avalanche at Everest. There’s always been danger in climbing Everest; I doubt people considered earthquakes as a possibility when avalanches are a near likelihood.

  63. numo wrote:

    And if anything, it gets SO MUCH weirder. This post merely scratches the surface.

    It does get weirder and weirder. I guess people have a lot of time on their hands, planning expeditions to fight demon Queens in exotic locations in the world. I wish they would spend more time looking at the beauty of this world and being grateful that they serve a God who loves them. They do not need to be warriors.

    I got a chuckle out of one section of the book when they were walking around apologizing for the Crusades, never seeing that they were building up to their own Crusade which could be damaging.

  64. numo wrote:

    I am a None who was around FAR too much of this garbsge in the 90s-early 00s. And if anything, it gets SO MUCH weirder. This post merely scratches the surface.

    Done here, been there, seen some very weird stuff. Personally, I think the stealth Calvinista garbage is probably more of a threat to Christian belief BUT I know the NAR people want real political power so they can make over the world and give it as a lovely present to Jesus when he returns. Let’s just say that I’m not interested in a world where the NAR is running the show.

  65. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    He bailed on the people who were supposed to be in charge of his discipline because “God had called him back to ministry.” Snort!

    I always wondered about that. Did the discipline team want him to come back as Ted without the rentboy and meth? His stuff was creepy to begin with.

  66. @ dee:
    It is good, but i think Rachel Tabatcnik’s articles for Talk2action.org are far and away the single best resource to date.

    And, really, the other major player in this stuff (wwhom mirele has already mentioned) is George Otis, Jr, of the Sentinel Group. The head honcho at That Churchmis vety good buddies with him, and Otis has been there to, um, “preach” in days gone by. Their connection comes via Otis’ time in YWAM, which is another BIG player in all of this, albeit largely unacknowledged.

  67. numo wrote:

    Their connection comes via Otis’ time in YWAM, which is another BIG player in all of this, albeit largely unacknowledged.

    Thank you. Another connection that needs to be made. One of these day, I am going to pain a room with that blackboard paint and then start drawing lines. I bet it would be jaw dropping and I am NOT a conspiracy theorist-ask Deb.

  68. numo wrote:

    Tabatchnik.

    I grew up with some Tabatchniks. They were run of the mill Russian orthodox. Look like one got away. Must have been the vodka and pirogi (which, BTW, i can make from scratch.)

  69. NJ wrote:

    I guess all we can do is keep putting the truth out here

    That is precisely what we are trying to do.

  70. @ mirele:
    I think, based on perdonal experience that the NAR is much, much scarier. Because their goal is world dominion for Jesus. Wish i was making that up, but… they are SO influential politically. This has been true since the beginning of the Reagan administation. Coincidentally (or not), quite a few of them are also part of Doug Coe’s group, The Fellowship, aka The Family, which Jeff Sharlet has written about – he did a terrific job.

    I met some Family members back in the 80s, when i lived in the D.C. area, but didn’t realize what the group really was. I don’t mean to sound like a vonspiracy theorist, but it’s fair to say that the NAR has friends in VERY high places, in Washington and in states like TX.

  71. @ dee:
    There’s also the diwcipleship movement and its connections to be factored in. That Church was a convergence of Latter Rain, YWAM, the NAR, Otis and God alone knows what all else.

    Btw, it is only a few minutes’ walk from the Capitol, and it has vety close tiesto the NAR in Uganda.

  72. @ mirele:
    The NAR has been using the stealth strategy for several decades, and NAR adherents will cheerfully lie if asked pointed questions about their true beliefs. I have been in a pew while that was being said (admonition to lie “for the greater good”) on more than one occassion, back in the 90s-early 00s, and used to know people eho were trying to subvert churches – in one case, a very lage and influential one – in the D.C. area.

    Even without the political alignments, the NAR is political in its structure and goals, as well as its methods.

  73. @ numo:
    I left discipleship movement off the list of things that all converge at That Church. Fwiw, their website gives absolutely no indication of any of this, since it’s unwise to talk about it publicly – lest you scare off the masses that you wish to con/subvert.

    please forgive my many comments, but i know WAY too much about all of this and it gets me wound up. Because i don’t want anyone else to get sucked into it, and because it always comes cloaked in respectability, using the Bible and Jesus as a lead in. In reality, it has nothing to do with the Gospels and NT, though it uses some of the same names and words.

    In other words – CULT.

  74. numo wrote:

    I think, based on perdonal experience that the NAR is much, much scarier. Because their goal is world dominion for Jesus. Wish i was making that up, but… they are SO influential politically. This has been true since the beginning of the Reagan administation. Coincidentally (or not), quite a few of them are also part of Doug Coe’s group, The Fellowship, aka The Family, which Jeff Sharlet has written about – he did a terrific job.
    I met some Family members back in the 80s, when i lived in the D.C. area, but didn’t realize what the group really was. I don’t mean to sound like a vonspiracy theorist, but it’s fair to say that the NAR has friends in VERY high places, in Washington and in states like TX.

    Not to be sound all conspiracy theorist either, but a certain announced female presidential candidate is really, really tight with the Family/Fellowship and has been for a very long time. Their influence makes me very uneasy.

  75. dee wrote:

    I wish it was just those who were older. This stuff has sunk into the mainstream. Chris Hodges is relatively young. Look what this director of the ARC teaches at his church.

    It is sad that people find their normal Christian walk too boring in real life so they want to spice it up with pretend paranormal warfare and visions. I do think that God still works in our world and miracles still happen, but not in the style of Frank Paretti’s old novels.

    Looked up the church list for ARC in my area (SoCal) and found surprising few out here. Unfortunately, I recognized the closest one. The pastor was leading a struggling Calvary Chapel nearer the coast, then left it to start a church at an old theater in his hometown, just 15 minutes from me. Didn’t realize it was an ARC church, but they had been investing heavily in ads online.

  76. @ EricL:
    These folks took Peretti’s books literally. I have sern that in process, and it is so closely related to their ultra-literalist reading of Scripture, it isn’t funny.

  77. EricL wrote:

    Looked up the church list for ARC in my area (SoCal) and found surprising few out here. Unfortunately, I recognized the closest one. The pastor was leading a struggling Calvary Chapel nearer the coast, then left it to start a church at an old theater in his hometown, just 15 minutes from me. Didn’t realize it was an ARC church, but they had been investing heavily in ads online.

    The ARC is the fastest growing church planting group in the country today, if not the world. They are adding churches at an incredible rate tan they are throwing tons of money at them. That is why you are seeing ads.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/11/05/building-the-arc-an-overview-of-this-church-planting-network/

    Get ready California. There are some who believe that Driscoll may plant a church with the help of the ARC in California.

  78. HoppyTheToad wrote:

    Do certain denominations manage to avoid most of the craziness?

    I think so, and the way that happens is that the people who take up with something too far out tend to pack up and leave and form their own churches.

  79. @ dee:
    Oh, i think various ARC churches (better so say ARC-like churches) have been big players in CA for many years now. You can easily find them via Charisma and the Elijah List and so on. [:bad tadte in my mout smiley:]

  80. @ Nancy:
    Which very often are just a reiteration of the same basic crazy, but using slightly different terms and emphasizing slightly different things.

    If i had a dollar for every time I’ve heard “But we are NOT part of the discipleship movement,” well…

  81. Thanks for looking into this, Dee. This post sounds eerily similar to a taped sermon I heard quite a while ago, maybe 15 or so years back. I don’t remember the preacher’s name, but his whole spiel was about the “Queen of Heaven”, and how she’s supposedly connected to the Ephesian Diana, the adoration of Mary, and even modern Islam (with its crescent moon motif).

    Back then, I wasn’t aware of all the weirdness going on in Christendom. I found some of the reasoning and connecting of dots a bit… odd, but I didn’t question it too closely. Thankfully, I received no other taped sermons in the same vein. As it was, this guy’s preaching made me uncomfortable just for being a fan of Sailor Moon.

    But trying to climb Everest because you think some principality lives there? Whoa… I thought that I’d read too many comic books. 😉

  82. @ dee:
    Oh, i heard breathless reports on that “reconciliation walk” re. the Crusades, believe me!

    Honestly, i didn’t know quite what to make of most of the crazy things i heard back in the day, but will confess to being swayed by some extremely persuasive people. St the same time, i was skeptical, but kept all of those thoughts to myself. If i had voiced my doubts, I’m sure I’d have bern booted *much* sooner, and that was also in the back of my mind. I got in deep trouble at other “churches” for asking questions, and feared a repeat. When it did finally happen, it came from left field, and i was totally blindsided.

  83. dee wrote:

    I saw John Wimber speak at a local charismatic Episcopal church in the early 1990’s and witnessed none of the strange phenomena that you described. That service, as I recall, was a basic healing prayer service.

    A couple of years later I began attending a nondenominational church which was, at the time, known for being a “Jewish roots” church. Eventually some of the leadership visited the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship and the Brownsville Assembly of God in Pensacola, site of the so-called “Brownsville Revival.” They brought back some of the more controversial aspects and displays, and that’s when I witnessed the really strange stuff. I decided it was time to leave when the pastor said those who disagreed with those phenomena were in danger of going to hell, and he cited Hank Hanegraaff in particular. I have my share of disagreements with Hanegraaff, but I thought his criticism of the Toronto and Brownsville “revivals” was spot on.

  84. By the way, I don’t recall hearing much concerning Peter Wagner until reading about his endorsement of Todd Bentley during the so-called “Lakeland Revival” seven years ago.

  85. dee wrote:

    And you can be sure I never delete a comment

    That is clear and well appreciated. I’ll remember to put a smiley face after some comments when they are meant humorously. When email was a new thing it was one of the first things to understand, there was no easy way to inject a sparkle of the eye or wry smile.

  86. dee wrote:

    However, she does not believe the victims in the SGM scandal. In fact, she really has a thing about child sex abuse victims who lie. She believes they lie as a default.

    Since there is no changing her opinion, i have defaulted to “Bless your heart, have a nice day.”

    Hmm, didn’t know that. Someone with the handle “Kamilla” recently commented on DeYoung’s covert aggressive article on TGC. I’ve replied to her a few times, just to make sure that she doesn’t go unanswered — I thought it would be good to do so as long as the “gospelly-gospel” boys aren’t deleting comments.

    She already seems a bit obtuse. If anyone thinks I’m banging my head against a wall, please feel free to let me know.

  87. @ singleman:
    I was blanking on the nsme. Doesn’t surprise me thst he’d have been invited there, ditto for his choosing to be toned down.

  88. @ Serving Kids In Japan:
    You’re banging your head against a wall, if it’s her, but that isn’t her usual online moniker. I believe Dee avoided using that for a reason.

    Let me try it out so that it won’t show up in a search engine: [●●●□□★♥b.r.a.v.e.l.a.s.s%=÷×+£¥₩]

    The alphabet letters are what you need to know about.

  89. dee wrote:

    nathan Priddis wrote:
    As massive an influence as the Reform Networks have and do have, the NAR is the way of the future.It is only in it’s early stages yet is the product of an incredibly long gestation.
    I am going to agree with you here. I believe that their influence has been building and theology in many churches has been affected by their quiet influence.. Ask any person in today’s churches about territorial spirits/demons. I bet you would find that many folks in supposedly “doctrinally sound churches believe in such things.
    I think it has been below the radar even though some of its peculiar beliefs are commonly accepted. For another example-take generational curses. (Please!)
    We will be covering more of this but the Calvinist fellas are out there imposing their strange views on church discipline, etc. So, we have a major story about to break on that matter in about a week.Please bear with us when we discuss it. I promise that you will find it quite surprising and informative.
    Then, we will leap back to NAR and some pretty interesting stuff. So many weird stories; so little time…

  90. We first encountered this stuff in a tiny Baptist church in ND. Needless to say, we ran, not walked, away from it.

    Amazing how clear it was to us when the new SBC preacher in town started ordering demons out of the church before the sermon so the people could hear him clearly, and then told us what he preaches is to be heard exactly as if it came from God’s mouth, since his sermons are God’s gift to this church.

    We found out that day that despite it being a decade and a half later, we could still beat feet with the best of them.

  91. @ nathan Priddis:
    Generational curses were a big thing re. Derek Prince, of discipleship movement infamy, back in the 70s-80s. A lot of this stuff goes back to the Latter Rain “revival” in parts of the AoG, back in the late 40s-early 50s. I couldn’t draw a diagram, if only because there would be so many interconnecting,lines that it would be indecipherable.

  92. singleman wrote:

    I saw John Wimber speak at a local charismatic Episcopal church in the early 1990’s and witnessed none of the strange phenomena that you described. That service, as I recall, was a basic healing prayer service.

    I don’t remember writing this. In fact, I have said things strongly to the contrary. Did I get mixed up with someone else.

    BTW, I thing that HH does a good job on a lot of things. I usually check him out as I am trying to figure out strange things.

  93. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    She already seems a bit obtuse. If anyone thinks I’m banging my head against a wall, please feel free to let me know.

    Maybe you can get through to her. I have been unable to do so.

  94. singleman wrote:

    don’t recall hearing much concerning Peter Wagner

    I heard a lot about his prior to his descent (or in the case of Everest ascent) into the territorial spirits who he apparently knows on a first name basis.

    he used to be a highly respected missologist, particularly on unreached people groups. That is why his shift into this stuff is fascinating.

  95. singleman wrote:

    They brought back some of the more controversial aspects and displays, and that’s when I witnessed the really strange stuff.

    Did you see any gold dust or teeth that turned to gold? I would have loved to have seen such antics. However, I tend to snort when I laugh hard and would probably have been bounced.

  96. @ dee:
    His focus on missiology led directly to this craziness, as with George Otis, Jr. Both bought into superstition and animism BIG time, which is where all the emphasis on “terretorial spirits” actually comes from.

    But then, Otis thinks Santa Claus is actually a Siberian shaman (a minion of Stan!) in disguise. i only wish i was making this up.

  97. @ dee:
    Someone i used to know took that seriously. But then, he also believed that God had told him to marry me.

  98. @ mirele:
    That is truly awful and cannot imagine the devastation there. I wonder what Piper will tweet about this, and I wonder if the NAR folks will take credit for it.

    BTW, thanks for all the info about Scientology and your role in exposing that. I am so very ignorant about that and about the NAR, among many other things.

  99. @ numo:
    Hmm. I think oppressing freedom of speech and choices for power over the masses is evil as is imprisoning peaceful people for speaking out over political differences.

  100. @ Gram3:
    Well, since they literally believed that they killed Princess Di *and* Mother Teresa with their Operation Ice Castle…

  101. @ singleman:
    Found one resource on the chicken stuff.

    “When I first visited the Anaheim Vineyard, the drunken behavior of devotees instantly reminded me of Rajneesh’s ashram. The late John Wimber’s daughter, Stephanie, stood at the altar, testifying that the power of God was upon her as she jerked spasmodically in what her father referred to as a chicken walk. It wasn’t long before others had joined her in jerking while rhythmic clapping and repetitive choruses filled the auditorium with sound.”

    http://www.equip.org/article/the-counterfeit-revival-part-four/#christian-books-3

  102. My point had nothing to do with what the then-pres said, but where he said it, and to whom.

    That time was a perfect storm of religious craxies + high-level maneuverings in Washington. I had a seat way out past he outfield, but i knew a few of the back-benchers.

  103. dee wrote:

    Get ready California. There are some who believe that Driscoll may plant a church with the help of the ARC in California.

    I rebuke that demon in you! Begone, with your curse of Driscoll! Just kidding, kind of. You ain’t got a demon and, at least for now, we don’t have Driscoll.

    May he feel called to Antarctica instead. Just think, Driscoll, of the headlines you can get by having the very first megachurch on that continent. Go for it, Mark!

  104. @ numo:
    Had little to do. And calling the USSR the evil empire was only one small part of that speech, which was its own perfect storm of ideology and religious zealotry.

  105. numo wrote:

    @ mirele:
    Except that their Jesus has no relationship to the Jesus of both the Gospels and historic ecumenical creeds.

    That is the common denominator, IMO, of all of these groups who wear a Jesus mask and spout bibley words. Never had contact with NAR people, but I have seen others get involved in the Third Wave. Also had some get involved in Heavy Shepherding and Gothardism. I definitely see the heritage of those two in the Gospel Glitterati realm. To me it seems to come down to a lust for power and money. If that is the case, then whether their beliefs are orthodox or not is a trivial concern.

    Scary Gary North tried to leverage the dominionist tendencies among certain charismatics. No one would ever connect Gary North with charismatic. In any sense of that term. Yet, when it comes to money and power, strange marriages occur. Dever and Mahaney is another example that I cannot figure out. At all.

  106. dee wrote:

    We will be covering more of this but the Calvinist fellas

    Can’t get enough of that good calviveesta stuff… 🙂

    NAR is Latter Rain. C.Peter Wagner, Spheres of Authority/Apostles in Today’s Church p.13-18
    Wagner describes the Latter Rain Apostles as the pioneers of the NAR. What is also important is a timeline he alludes to, but does not specifically mention, the gap from Latter Rain collapse/Kansas City and Toronto Prophets.

    This is the 60’s Charismatic Renewal 70’s Shepherding Movement. The Latter Rain would have died under the light of day. It was blasphemy with Many Membered Manchild being it’s craziest idea. The SM was refuge for the LR doctrines and gave a chance for it’s infected few survivors to start teaching a new generation of infected sheep.

    Even the Nazis never said they would become hi-bred god-men walking the Earth. The Nazis were content with eugenics and creating a German homeland carved from Eastern Europe.

    By the 70’s the Seven Spheres doctrine would cross-breed with the LR doctrines percolating through SM circles. Butalso this appears to be where a few surprises enter the story. A few leaders begin having visitations or visions were God presents a new gospel. Example. The Seven Mountains visions involving Bright and Cunningham. This is just a new name for Seven Spheres.

    These visions would be anathema according to Galatians.

  107. @ Gram3:
    I think it’s also about wanting the same things, so enemies become frenemies in order to achieve their common goals.

  108. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    If anyone thinks I’m banging my head against a wall, please feel free to let me know.

    You’re banging your head against a wall. But somebody needs to answer, so kudos to you for doing so. I’m pretty sure that is the same Kamilla. As long as someone like CJ upholds male supremacy and female deference, Kamilla is OK with trivialities like covering up child sexual abuse.

  109. @ dee:
    He married someone who was more the kind of person he wanted. Believe me, i could not EVER have been that person!

  110. dee wrote:

    Maybe you can get through to her. I have been unable to do so.

    That would be nice, but mainly I want to make sure anyone reading the comments will understand why I side with the plaintiffs/victims. If she follows us out of the fog, all the better.

  111. @ dee:
    Besides, can you imagine me being martied to someone who sincerely believes that God miraculously fills peoples’ teeth?!

  112. numo wrote:

    His focus on missiology led directly to this craziness

    This is an idea that needs researched: that sometimes perhaps missionaries in some regions ‘go native’ religiously. I knew a missionary couple that had some strange tales to tell about some alleged demons that globbed onto them at a particular site and rode back home with them in the car-I am not up to date on all the details of the story at this point. I do think that this sort of thing would be easy to believe when confronted with some things in some cultures. I am being careful what I say. It would be easy enough to get scared and run (or keep silent). It would be easy to fancy oneself a mighty warrior against evil. It would be easy to go home and dump the ministry and go back to school in anthropology. When you feel like you are surrounded by evil funny things can happen to people’s thinking, at least that would be my take on it.

  113. @ Serving Kids In Japan:
    I think it’s a lovely dream, but it would take an awful lot (like moving heaven and earth) for that to happen. Many have tried, believe me, and no doubt many will come after you.

  114. mirele wrote:

    After doing research about Mount Everest, it was weird to wake up this morning and see that an enormous and destructive (7.8 or 7.9) earthquake hit Nepal, devastating Kathmandu, and apparently starting an avalanche at Everest.

    Well ya know the Lord has to punish somebody or something for trying to horn in on his ‘glory’ right? The queen of heaven, Mary, or whatevs, and if those little brown buggers in Kathmandu got in the way, too bad!

  115. I’ve posted a number of articles and case studies related to New Apostolic Reformation, spiritual mapping, “strategic level prayer/warfare,” etc. There are links to materials that refute the Transformation video series, and such like in there, too, for those looking for research.

    https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/category/1-spiritual-abuse-toxic-ministries/spiritual-mapping-strategic-level-prayer-and-spiritual-warfare/

    And the article on dominion theology still is the #1 post on my blog even after 7 years, perhaps because it has become associated with certain political movements, the NAR, and particular wings of reformed theology.

  116. numo wrote:

    The NAR has been using the stealth strategy for several decades, and NAR adherents will cheerfully lie if asked pointed questions about their true beliefs. I have been in a pew while that was being said (admonition to lie “for the greater good”) on more than one occasion…

    Did they learn the technique from Hubbard, I wonder? He invented a Scientology “training routine” to teach his adherents how to lie convincingly. All so that they can tell “acceptable truths” for the “greater good”.

    My, how they all look the same in the end…

    (“TR-L” is a Scientology training routine

  117. @ Nancy:
    When the people all around you believe in strange evil things, i think it is easy to start believing.

    Both Wagner and Otis and their followers all believe they are Mighty Warriors, so i think a search for meaning (tinged with egotism) drives it, though. And $$$. These guys have made an industry out of ehat they call Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare, complete with books, audio, video, wrbsites, conferences – the whole megillah.

    I actually knew some of the unnamed (no names given) people mentionec in Otis’ screed The Twilight Labyrinth, though i only read it after having been out of That Church for some years. No surprise – they were present/former members of same.

  118. @ numo:
    In the use of small cells, a religious version of Trotsky’s “perpetual revolution,” and more, but then, totalitarian groups all use the same kinds of tactics.

  119. If you’re searching for background on the “Queen of Heaven” issue, you might be interested in *Two Babylons* by Alexander Hislop, a book that I believe was originally published in the 1850s, though the editions on Amazon date from the the 1950s and onward. He seeks to connect Roman Catholicism with Mary as Queen of Heaven with pagan religion going back to Nimrod and Babel/Babylon. Sidenote: The tower of Babel, being the tallest man-made object of the times, has an intriguing connection with Mt. Everest as the tallest God-made object on earth. No wonder it would attract strategic level warfare prayer …

    http://www.ldolphin.org/PDFs/The_Two_Babylons-Alexander_Hislop.pdf

  120. @ brad/futuristguy:
    Brad, i sincerely doubt Hilsop was the 1st person to make that connection, though archaeological discoveries made during his time would have given his clsims a bit of added fuel, so to speak.

  121. Hislop may have been into the lost tribe/British Israel stuff, but I recalled mostly his history of paganism from reading *Two Babylons* waaay back in the 1970s and then getting involved tangentially with Strategic Level Prayer stuff in the 1990s and then eventually accepting the critique of it as “Christian animism,” which this NAR/Transformations/etc. theological perspective has been called since at least the mid-1990s.

  122. @ brad/futuristguy:
    I looked him up and found out that one of hisbooks is about national revival being linked to national covenanting, and there is a *very* direct link in that to not only the NAR, but to the extremely Scottish head honcho of That Church (aaka Stuat McAlpine and Christ Our Shepherd Church in D.C.). McAlpine used to wax eloquent about the original Scots Covenanters, too.

    Yeesh!!!

  123. numo wrote:

    Besides, can you imagine me being martied to someone who sincerely believes that God miraculously fills peoples’ teeth?!

    My son in law is a miracle in our family and he does fill teeth. 🙂

    Gold fillings-that is what the Almighty is doing with his time? Banging head against the table.

  124. In the 1980s I was church secretary at the second-oldest Vineyard. Anaheim/Wimber was not the first; Wimber came later, after there was already a loose affiliation of fewer than a dozen churches. Most had come out of Calvary Chapel, because they were willing to allow more “Holy Spirit action” than CC. I was at that Vineyard for 6 1/2 years and kept in contact into the mid-90s.

    I actually thought Wimber himself was ok, for the most part. He initially endorsed the Toronto thing, but later repudiated it, and he did ask them to leave. I later came to find out that at the time he was involved with the Toronto and KC IHOP people, one of his children was in the throes of drug addiction, and he personally was very distraught and perhaps looking for something in those groups to help him deal with that pain. After Wimber came to a healthier place, he saw that those groups were off the edge and disassociated himself and the Vineyard org. from them. He was very quick to ask forgiveness for this and other mistakes he made in his leadership. He seemed to be much more transparent about this stuff than anyone else I knew about who was in a similar position.

    It was not so much that he saw the signs & wonders as any kind of “proof”; it was that he really took Jesus and how Jesus was portrayed in the Gospels seriously, and believed that the Holy Spirit could work through any Christian so that they could “do the stuff” that Jesus did. After Wimber died, the Vineyard org. stabilized after a few years, and AFAIK haven’t have anything to do with Wagner et al for decades. Some Vineyards look like your Baptist church down the street; most are more charismatic in flavor, but nowhere near a cult.

    Yes, the original name of LA was “El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora Reina de los Angeles” – the town of Our Lady, Queen of the Angels.

    For being a seminary professor, Wagner is profoundly ignorant regarding Eastern Christianity and its relationship to Rome and how the western church developed. In the Orthodox Church, what has been handed down is that Mary did travel and was at Ephesus, but her last known address was actually Jerusalem…

  125. @ dainca:
    The whole KC “prophets” thing is profoundly weird. Also, i have heard of some screwy Vineyard affiliates, though don’t have any personal experience with anything Vineyard. I was in the charismatic renewal back in the day (early-mid 70s) @and, sadly, have seen a lot of bad things get in and take over in charismatic circles. Wagner and his pals are one of the more recent iterations of that kind of cult-like weirdness. His endorsement of Todd Bentley, for example, is all of a piece with his other belifbeliefs.

  126. dee wrote:
    Sorry for the delay, but I wanted to go to the store before the predicted rain arrives.

    I never saw or heard about gold teeth or gold dust, but plenty of folks were jerking spasmodically, getting “drunk in the spirit,” or engaging in “holy laughter” among other things. The pastor was also claiming special revelation. About this time the sermons became much less focused on getting grounded in the Word and more focused on strange phenomena. This was much different from John Wimber’s visit to Truro several years earlier or Derek Prince’s visit a year or so before that.

    The last I heard, which was a few years ago, that nondenominational church, which has undergone several name changes, was down to a handful of members meeting in the pastor’s home and sounded like a personality cult centered around the pastor. Sadly, that doesn’t surprise me at all.

  127. @ dainca:
    Thank you so much for your informative comment. I probably should have said more about Wimber his repudiation of the Toronto stuff before he died. I was focusing more on Wagner and was trying to figure out what came first Wagner convincing Wimber, or Wimber convincing Wagner. I had assumed it was the latter but perhaps you might have some thoughts on the matter.

    It is comments like yours that makes me realize what I love about blogging. I can put some ideas out there and then some people who have specific knowledge fill in the blanks.

    It is interesting that you should bring up IHOP. I have been asked by several folks to write about the abuses in that movement and have the info I need but am trying to figure out how to write about everything I want to write about.

    Also, thank you for the Orthodox understanding of the last known whereabouts of Mary. My father was Russian Orthodox and I was always impressed with their understanding of the early history of the church. However, my father was more impressed with the festivals and the food. I grew up going to those events and even had a polka band play at my wedding!

  128. numo wrote:

    or follow themoney, or maybe both.

    Had to read that twice. I thought you wrote “follow theonomy.” Once burned by theonomists, forever scarred I am.

    Indeed, follow the money and power.

  129. @ singleman:
    Thank you for sharing your own accounts of the manifestations of these groups. When I was dating my husband (back in ancient history) he was a member of a charismatic group at Dartmouth College called the Dartmouth Area Christian Fellowship. he had become a Christian through that group.

    I was not comfortable with the various manifestations and lengthy episodes of singing in the spirit. So my soon to be husband was willing to take me to another church which was not as charismatic.

    Just so you don’t t think I am nuts, here is a link that discusses what I termed the “gold rush phenomenon” in the Toronto Blessings circles.

    http://www.forgottenword.org/gold-dust.html

    I am spending a lot of time thinking about the blessings you all are to me today. I have been interested in discussing this stuff for years. I rarely found people who wanted to talk about or even knew about many of these topics.

    I remember one time, standing in my kitchen with two little girls (my son had not yet been born.) I was reading something in a theology book that confused me. (Yes, besides science fiction and medical thrillers, I also read theology books- I am really weird). A friend stopped by and I mentioned it to her and her eyes glazed over.

    The blogging thing has been wonderful. I get my thoughts off my chest, I expose abuses and I meet people that want to talk about this stuff. I really love you guys!

    My only sadness is that I can’t get together with all of you on a regular basis. Wouldn’t that be fun!

  130. Dee wrote:

    I am spending a lot of time thinking about the blessings you all are to me today. I have been interested in discussing this stuff for years. I rarely found people who wanted to talk about or even knew about many of these topics.

    Glad that this longing is being fulfilled, Dee. Part of what has made these kinds of conversations difficult to find discussion partners for is that they are often highly technical and *seem* esoteric – and yet, they hold huge ramifications in them for how people live their everyday lives and the deep damage some of these high-blown concepts can effect. Maybe some of these discussions needed to wait for a virtual village in which the invitation issued could find its way to willing participants.

  131. @ brad/futuristguy:
    Oh, c’mon – they are esoteric! 😉 No ifs, ands or buts.

    However, as you said, the ramifications are not. And it can be very hard to find anyone who has a clue on these subjects. I couldn’t begin to put two and two together regarding my own experiences with all of this stuff until some reasonably sane discussion started showing up, back in the fall of 2008. Rachel Tabatchnik at talk2action.org was the person who pulled the disparate threads together for me, in her investigative series on the NAR. She is one of the most dedicated researchers around, and is able to communicate her findings clearly, with ample documentation.

    When i read her work, the penny finslly dropped.

    This has nothing to do with the political views of the talk2action writers and *everything* to do with the quality of reporting in their NAR section.

  132. Dear Dee. Can switch to other ear for next 3 months. After that, is there, like, a miracle ear or something? Anyway, there’s been lots to discuss …

    And Yo! Numo! Yup, I hear yuh. I was moderately involved with the Strategic Level Prayer and Sentinel Group stuff for about 6-7 years. What helped me most in critiquing them as forms of “Christian animism” was a lengthy conversation I had with a pagan/wiccan, and I realized that much of what she was saying sounded *almost exactly* like the spiritual warfare practices [rituals] promoted for countering principalities and powers, redeeming locations where evil had happened, etc. When the concepts of two groups are so very similar, you have to wonder if the so-called “Christian” version is actually a heavily syncretized edition of the non-Christian version. And so, there it was; the key to critiquing a pseudo-biblical movement.

  133. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Hester wrote:
    @ Gram3:
    I wonder why Kamilla, the Former Rabid Feminist, doesn’t visit here at TWW?
    Don’t speak about her…if you say her name too many times she might hear you…
    Just like La Llorona…

    Beetlejuice Beetlejuice Beetlejuice (sorry
    i just could not resist)

  134. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    WELL I AM IN. Totally. Imagine a religion where I can act out my Indiana Jones and my John Constantine fantasies! Someone please, please tell me where to sign up!

    I don’t see why the stuff about Ice Castles and battles with a Queen of Heaven couldn’t be made into a feature film.

    Scientologists did it with Battlefield Earth. I actually saw that movie. My sister, for some reason I do not know, bought a copy of it, and I watched it at her house years ago.

  135. dee wrote:

    I will never forget reading an account that during the Holy Laughter time, a group of people were moved to cluck and walk like chickens, including the people on the stage.

    I’m not sure why, but I watch a lot of Christian television programming. A lot of it is this Charismatic stuff.

    One TV show I watch sometimes is called “It’s Supernatural.” The guy who hosts it is a Messianic Jewish guy. He often has guests on who talk about these things.

    He’s had guests on who claim that while they are praying on stage or lecturing on stage at a church, they will see angels (that nobody else can see), or, they will see gold dust appear on people.

    It seems about once every few weeks, he has guests on who say they have visions of heaven, or Jesus Christ appears to them personally in their bedroom to talk to them.

    On one episode, he had on a guy who says an overweight woman instantly lost 50 pounds just standing around at his service.

  136. @ Dee:

    As far as how W&W came together, that happened when they were both teaching at Fuller. Wagner was going to a big non-Charismatic church in Pasadena, as I recall. I think it was serendipity; they were both at kind of the same place in terms of the signs & wonders thing and missiological interest, and neither of them needed to “convince” the other. Wagner was generally a run-of-the-mill Charismatic at that time, and didn’t get into the really weird stuff until after Wimber died.

    Todd Hunter -not one of Wimber’s children- was Wimber’s “heir”; he had his own issues, but nothing that caused any problem in the Vineyard as a whole. He also had better seminary training, was cautious and listened to wise people; he was able to step back and look at the whole situation, and there were other mature leaders who did not think it was good to continue the relationship with Wagner when he started to go askew. (Todd was a good “interim pastor” for the Vineyard, and he was on his own journey, too; he left that position after only a few years, was highly involved at the beginning of the “missional” movement, and ended up as a “continuing Anglican” bishop.)

    Yeah, Wimber was chummy with the KC “prophets” in the beginning, but later when he saw the excesses he severed that association as well. Wimber was a different sort of Evangelical leader than most: he asked for forgiveness when he messed up, he truly loved Jesus above fame & money, and he saw the value of serving the poor before it became hip to do so; he always kept a couple of bags of groceries in his car to give away, and never used that as a means to try to force people to listen while he whopped them over the head with “the Gospel.” May God grant him rest.

    I know about reading theological books in between the raising children chores (I have 2 girls & a boy as well, son is the oldest) – and the glazed-over eyes 😉

    May God help you and Deb continue your very needed ministry. -hugs-

  137. Upstream a bit HUG and others talked about those who attempt to split the difference between a “cult” and a “not cult.” Yes, technically there are churches that don’t fit the old-line definition of “cult.” They profess the Apostle’s Creed, the Nicene, and have never had someone try and explain away Christ’s divinity. This is were Roger Olson’s “TACOs” come in to play (”Totalistic, Aberrational, Christian Organization.”) I see TWW covered this in the past:

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/08/15/roger-olson-on-t-a-c-o-s-totalistic-aberrational-christian-organizations/

    Just because you line up the basic dots right doesn’t mean people shouldn’t run away screaming. The NAR churches may not technically be cultic in every aspect, but most of them run into “TACO” territory.

  138. David wrote:

    The NAR churches may not technically be cultic in every aspect, but most of them run into “TACO” territory.

    “One thing I discovered when teaching the course (and talking about “cults and new religions”) in numerous churches) was a term coined by some sociologist of religion: “T.A.C.O.”–”Totalistic, Aberrational, Christian Organization.” I don’t recall who coined the term (if I ever knew). It was used in print by sociologists to describe a category of churches and sects.”
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2013/08/t-a-c-o-s-anyone/

    When looking up that term, I found this:

    “Holy Taco Church” (holytacochurch .com)

    We are not a church in the tax-exempt sense; we don’t have a choir, organist, or a guilt trip to lay on you, and our altar is the local taco stand.
    But we are a fellowship of authors who like to get together and talk about stuff we love—in this case, food, drink, and books.

    The Holy Taco Church sounds like it might be more welcoming than most regular churches these days.

    I wonder if HTC makes people sign membership agreements, or issues church discipline for preferring burritos to tacos?

  139. @ brad/futuristguy:
    Yes, i understand what you’re saying, and it is a longstanding joke on many Wiccan blogs.

    Re. the penny dropping for me, Tabatchnik was able to help me see the connections between YWAM, the NAR and a bunch of other things I’d encountered in charismatic circles, including names of prominent Elijah’s List members and some of their protegees.

  140. @ brad/futuristguy:
    There are other aspects to this, very much including a belief in a dualistic system, as well as a jettisoning of much of the NT and the ecumenical creeds. Then there’s the whole RPG thing, along with attendant vilification of people who live in “enemy territory.”

    Add the whole 7 Mountains deal, and it becomes a lethal brew indeed.

  141. @ brad/futuristguy:
    If the NAR folks really believed in the NT understanding of Christ’s death and resurrection, they wouldn’t go near the stuff they espouse. As is, that seems to count for little-nothing to them, since it’s all about their “warfare” and what *they* can do to bring the chosen generstion and etc.

  142. EricL wrote:

    Oh, my above comment about losing it with age, wasn’t meant to impugn the mental abilities of all seniors. (I’m already getting my own AARP offers in the mail.)

    I started getting AARP come-ons in the mail before I turned 40. They sound all too much like “Repeat after me: I’M ENTITLED! I’M ENTITLED! YOU GOTTA GIMME! YOU GOTTA GIMME!”

  143. EricL wrote:

    Don’t encourage them. We already have had the Ultimate Fighting Churches. They will turn church into a another Disney fun ride, complete with fake alligators that the pastor will shoot with his fake gun. “Jungle Ride Church, for the Adventurous Souls”

    Isn’t that HolyLand in Florida or Ark Encounter at the Kentucky Creation Museum?

  144. @ numo:
    I would like it very much if someone could put together a fairly accurate relational chart.

    Those that bought the shepherding message would now be senior pastors and ministry heads. My talk on the relationships is a personal feeling that the relational authority can remain many years after the group relationship has ended.

  145. dee wrote:

    Kimber got into some really weird stuff. I will never forget reading an account that during the Holy Laughter time, a group of people were moved to cluck and walk like chickens, including the people on the stage. I will find the account and link to it.

    Anything like this link?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5nwv-tYngc

  146. numo wrote:

    @ Hester:
    Nope. They (Op. Ice Castle people) believe that Princess Diana and Mother Teresa died as a result of their prayers. Please dsee relevant article on Talk2action.or, titled Killing Mother Teresa with Their Prayers.

    Prayers or Hexerai?

  147. @ Daisy:
    Cult is an obsolete term best suited for the late 60’s and 70’s groups denying the divinity of Christ.(and yes Mormon and JWs) It does not address the more modern NAR.

  148. mirele wrote:

    Personally, I think the stealth Calvinista garbage is probably more of a threat to Christian belief BUT I know the NAR people want real political power so they can make over the world and give it as a lovely present to Jesus when he returns.

    A lovely present covered with the mass graves of All Those Heathens, Heretics, and Apostates? And the brainwashed believers left alive constantly reciting the Christianese for “Long Live Big Brother!”? And Handmaids for all the Holy Commanders?

  149. mirele wrote:

    Personally, I think the stealth Calvinista garbage is probably more of a threat to Christian belief BUT I know the NAR people want real political power so they can make over the world and give it as a lovely present to Jesus when he returns.

    A lovely present covered with the mass graves of All Those Heathens, Heretics, and Apostates? And the brainwashed believers left alive constantly reciting the Christianese for “Long Live Big Brother!”? And Handmaids for all the Holy Commanders?Daisy wrote:

    One TV show I watch sometimes is called “It’s Supernatural.” The guy who hosts it is a Messianic Jewish guy. He often has guests on who talk about these things.

    “Just like That’s Incredible, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

  150. dee wrote:

    I heard a lot about his prior to his descent (or in the case of Everest ascent) into the territorial spirits who he apparently knows on a first name basis.

    “Knows on a first-name basis” like a Sorcerer knows his Familiar Spirits?

  151. dee wrote:

    @ singleman:
    Found one resource on the chicken stuff.

    “When I first visited the Anaheim Vineyard, the drunken behavior of devotees instantly reminded me of Rajneesh’s ashram. The late John Wimber’s daughter, Stephanie, stood at the altar, testifying that the power of God was upon her as she jerked spasmodically in what her father referred to as a chicken walk. It wasn’t long before others had joined her in jerking while rhythmic clapping and repetitive choruses filled the auditorium with sound.”

    And another possible:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb9FwlubyIQ

  152. nathan Priddis wrote:

    This is the 60’s Charismatic Renewal 70’s Shepherding Movement. The Latter Rain would have died under the light of day. It was blasphemy with Many Membered Manchild being it’s craziest idea.

    Is “Many Membered Manchild” anything like the “Moonchild” of Jack Parsons’ and Elron Hubbard’s “Babalon Working”? Of which Aliester Crowley commented “I thought I had a most morbid imagination, but it appears I have not.”

  153. numo wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    Do not speak her name, lest she appear…

    Like La Llorona: “If you say her name, she will come to you. She will come to your window at night and look in at you.”

  154. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    If you’re searching for background on the “Queen of Heaven” issue, you might be interested in *Two Babylons* by Alexander Hislop, a book that I believe was originally published in the 1850s, though the editions on Amazon date from the the 1950s and onward. He seeks to connect Roman Catholicism with Mary as Queen of Heaven with pagan religion going back to Nimrod and Babel/Babylon. Sidenote: The tower of Babel, being the tallest man-made object of the times, has an intriguing connection with Mt. Everest as the tallest God-made object on earth. No wonder it would attract strategic level warfare prayer …
    http://www.ldolphin.org/PDFs/The_Two_Babylons-Alexander_Hislop.pdf

    Hislop’s “Two Babylons” is THE go-to source for almost all present-day Anti-Catholic Conspiracy Theory. Any time you hear the names “Nimrod, Semiramis, and Tammuz” as a Satanic trinity, the guy’s plagarizing Hislop word-for-word.

  155. @ nathan priddis:
    Many of those who “brought the shepherding message hsvd died, including all of the Ft. Lauderdale Five.

    It would take a *lot* of wotk for anyone to be able to trace this stuff, especially given the fact thst NAR people can and do lie for their cause.

  156. @ nathan Priddis:
    Latter Rain is, unfortunately, alive and well in many NAR circles. One of the members of the Ft. Lauderdale Five, Ern Baxter, was very much a Latter Rain guy, and lots of LR beliefs were disseminated via the shepherding movement.

    Today, the most lrevalent ideas are Joel’s army and the “fivefold ministry.” Both are widely accepted “truths” in many NAR circles. They get their ideas about apostles, etc. directly from that, though most of the rank and file are unaware of the LR connections of it all. But they are also a very credulous bunch, so…

  157. @ numo:
    Relevant.

    Btw, Joel’s army has many other names today. I think a lot of NAR people deliberately alter terms. I know that sounds paranoid, but I’ve experienced it myself. It took me quite a long time to connect the dots.

  158. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    A lovely present covered with the mass graves of All Those Heathens, Heretics, and Apostates? And the brainwashed believers left alive constantly reciting the Christianese for “Long Live Big Brother!”? And Handmaids for all the Holy Commanders?

    I found myself watching a few clips from the 1990 Handmaid’s Tale movie this evening.. I remember being disappointed with it at the time. I now wonder if I misjudged it…

  159. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    I read that book ages ago. When I did I recognized some of the anti-catholic stuff I had heard hither and yon from various sources. There is an issue that keeps cropping up in catholic vs anti-catholic thinking and that is to what extent may or should the church go in adapting to the ideas or practices of various cultures. This issue reminds me of the introductory course in pharmacology (prescribing principles) in med school and the issue about how much medicine do you give the patient. The answer is ‘enough but not too much’ and that can get quite complicated and sometimes risky. I am thinking that cultural adaptation has to be enough but not too much and that can get quite complicated and sometimes risky. I think this issue has not been resolved in christian religious thinking, and somebody can then write some wild eyed and extreme stuff like that book and people will swallow the whole thing.

  160. dee wrote:

    Thank you. Another connection that needs to be made. One of these day, I am going to pain a room with that blackboard paint and then start drawing lines. I bet it would be jaw dropping and I am NOT a conspiracy theorist-ask Deb.

    I am not a conspiracy theorist but when I was trying to understand the tangled influences in my church life starting in the late 1990s I stumbled upon what is now called the NAR. Creating such a room could be helpful. Instead I have files and piles of papers, boxes and bookcases of books validating connections and explaining the teachings. Both would be necessary though.

    An early link is from C Peter Wagner at the AD2000 website. This is part of the Lausanne Movement which is still active today and is aligned with the NAR.

    Here is that link:

    http://www.ad2000.org/re00623.htm
    Notice the names and teachings.

  161. @ numo:
    numo wrote:

    @ nathan Priddis:
    Latter Rain is, unfortunately, alive and well

    Wagner said they are the same thing. I had another book that went even further but can’t remember who it was. It may have been Bill Hammon and was a borrowed book so I can’t find.

    I am not convinced Shepherding stopped at all, just officially went out of business and the name and format was dropped. The early students / sheep / whatever you want to call then, should be in the late 50’s early 60’s today if they were students during that era. In turn, there should be successive crops that have propagated.

    When did you leave the movement?

  162. @ nathan Priddis:
    I don’t think shepherding has stopped, either, but its 70s-80s iteration isn’t front and center, and has not been for quite a few years now.

    As for C. Peter Wagner making claims, i don’t buy it.

  163. @ Susanc:
    Wow! I did some reading on the matter. I was aware of the Lausanne connection but some of this stuff you sent me helps me to see where places like the ARC got their ideas for prayer walks, etc. This stuff is gold for people like me trying to understand the infiltration of this thinking.

  164. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    A lovely present covered with the mass graves of All Those Heathens, Heretics, and Apostates? And the brainwashed believers left alive constantly reciting the Christianese for “Long Live Big Brother!”? And Handmaids for all the Holy Commanders?

    Ain’t it funny HUG, whether it’s heathen or religious regimes the end result is always the same—A boot on a human face.

  165. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Dee wrote:
    I am spending a lot of time thinking about the blessings you all are to me today. I have been interested in discussing this stuff for years. I rarely found people who wanted to talk about or even knew about many of these topics.
    Glad that this longing is being fulfilled, Dee. Part of what has made these kinds of conversations difficult to find discussion partners for is that they are often highly technical and *seem* esoteric – and yet, they hold huge ramifications in them for how people live their everyday lives and the deep damage some of these high-blown concepts can effect. Maybe some of these discussions needed to wait for a virtual village in which the invitation issued could find its way to willing participants.

    YES!!!!!

  166. @ Susanc:
    es. The books by Wagner, John Dawson, and George Otis – the ones about retaking cities and territorial spirits and the like – began coming out in the 1990s. Easy enough to do a publication date check on sites like Amazon.com

    Lausanne was, imo, one of the places where these ideas began gaining wide exposure and a much larger audience.

  167. @ dee:
    Also… YWAM. YWAM people were in this from the beginning, as Otis (an ex-YWAMer) and so forth. I know the prayer walking thing was already going on at the church that booted me, back in the early 90s. Has very close YWAM connections.

  168. dee wrote:

    All the boys over at the Gospel™ Coalition are quite enamored of the DD boys. A few of them have even grown beards in solidarity.

    Ahhhh.
    Well-groomed beards are definitely in. I’m calling it “the urban Ned Kelly” here in Australia. Fashion-wise the slicked up “ducks bum as fringe” look had worn out and had to evolve, so now it’s the metro rugged bushranger look.

  169. numo wrote:

    As for C. Peter Wagner making claims, i don’t buy it.

    Wagner-Spheres of Authority p.13 Post World War II Apostles
    “Here in America, God began to open the doors for the re emergence of the apostles” (NAR) “right after World War II.”
    p. “The decade of 1970’s saw the beginnings of the global prayer movement that we see today”

  170. Edit: Another fat fingered post. That should have said p.14 RE, decade of the 1970’s

  171. dee wrote:

    One of these day, I am going to paint a room with that blackboard paint and then start drawing lines.

    A la the ‘join the dots scene’ where Russell Crowe plays Dr John Nash in “A beautiful mind”? Could get interesting !

  172. dee wrote:

    “When I first visited the Anaheim Vineyard, the drunken behavior of devotees instantly reminded me of Rajneesh’s ashram. The late John Wimber’s daughter, Stephanie, stood at the altar, testifying that the power of God was upon her as she jerked spasmodically in what her father referred to as a chicken walk. It wasn’t long before others had joined her in jerking while rhythmic clapping and repetitive choruses filled the auditorium with sound.”

    Sounds more like Voudun than Rajneeshies.
    The Loa mount their Horses and ride, ride, ride…

  173. Haitch wrote:

    dee wrote:
    One of these day, I am going to paint a room with that blackboard paint and then start drawing lines.
    A la the ‘join the dots scene’ where Russell Crowe plays Dr John Nash in “A beautiful mind”? Could get interesting !

    Until you wind up like this:
    http://static.fimfiction.net/images/story_images/111005.jpg?1371499648

    “There is a secret in Equestria. A secret the newly crowned Princess Twilight Sparkle doesn’t dare to believe. Like puppeteers pulling on marionettes, they have influenced Equestria for better and worse since the fall of Discord. So far they have been benevolent, but their potential for evil is vast. What’s worse, she doesn’t know their name. She doesn’t know their mission. All she knows for certain is one thing.

    “That they all seem to be zebra.”

    http://www.fimfiction.net/story/111005/wise-beyond-her-years

  174. Nancy wrote:

    demons that globbed onto them at a particular site and rode back home with them in the car-

    fwiw, I have heard this from regular old charismatics here in the US, who have never been outside the US nor met people from elsewhere who have such stories.

  175. Haitch wrote:

    Well-groomed beards are definitely in. I’m calling it “the urban Ned Kelly” here in Australia. Fashion-wise the slicked up “ducks bum as fringe” look had worn out and had to evolve, so now it’s the metro rugged bushranger look.

    I’ll take your word for it, Haitch.

    I have no idea how a look can be both Metro (swishing pretty-boy who primps for four hours each morning) and Bushranger at the same time. Maybe we should call them “Mushrangers”?

  176. @ Susanc:
    Lausanne connection…Hmm

    I am confused of what this thing was. Lausanne is referenced by some groups that have an apostolic bent as being very important. I wish I had asked more questions twenty years ago.

    I don’t believe there is any need for large gatherings because it just lets bad doctrine spread from one person to the next. “Let each attend to his own business.”

  177. EricL wrote:

    May he feel called to Antarctica instead. Just think, Driscoll, of the headlines you can get by having the very first megachurch on that continent. Go for it, Mark!

    Because those unchurched penguins need reaching. Actually in the context of this post, and numo’s explanation of the mixing of animism, your idea isn’t that far out really.

  178. @ mirele:
    I re-read this a couple of years ago and was kind of surprised by two things:

    1. that she chose the Boston area as the setting for the theocracy

    2. that she totally missed out on the idea of the internet – the closest she got was the machines that printed out prayers

    Other than that, it is a very scary book, far more relevant today (imo) than when it was 1st published.

  179. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I have no idea how a look can be both Metro (swishing pretty-boy who primps for four hours each morning) and Bushranger at the same time. Maybe we should call them “Mushrangers”?

    Google, ‘lumbersexual’. Or look up the rugged fellows guide. This chap is the epitomse of ‘the look’: http://i0.wp.com/www.ruggedfellowsguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/perfectbeard-580×580.jpg?resize=580%2C580
    I like the phrase “mushranger” (with the u pronounced as oo). All credit to you HUG, you heard it first on TWW.

  180. @ Haitch:
    Over here, that look is either from a subset of the gay community or else pretty generically “hipster,” though a lot of straight hipster guys tend to go for a DD-ish look. With fedoras – go figure! It’s like Dean Martin and Teddy Roosevelt had a love child, or some such…

  181. @ Haitch:
    I think “mushranger” is actually a good description of the the Alaska-NW Territories beardy look. (Complete with dogsled.)

  182. @ Haitch:
    btw, I am surprised that more of the sites featuring articles on “lumbersexuals” don’t twig to the look’s origins in the Pacific Northwest – Seattle-Portland, more specifically.

  183. numo wrote:

    No, he was not cute. He was, sadly, a very strange man, and he scared me.

    Going serious here – being pursued by revolting men who have been given a tick of approval by the church can induce a lot of self-loathing. You subconsciously internalise it and think ‘this is what I’ve attracted and what I’m worthy of’. I was 16 when the strange, odd man in our church asked the Pastor for my hand in marriage. He needed someone to cook and clean for him apparently. I was mocked and made a fool of by the Pastor’s sons in our youth group (this was a place where information from church counselling sessions made it to the Pastor’s children). It was a long time ago and my gross experience was minor compared to the amount of interference in marriages that was occurring. Moving on…

  184. Haitch wrote:

    You subconsciously internalise it and think ‘this is what I’ve attracted and what I’m worthy of’.

    Indeed.

    The guy I’m speaking of wasn’t quite that weird, but he was not someone I’d ever found remotely attractive, and he definitely was the kind of person who believed God told him to marry x woman, and so on. He was extremely gauche, and part of my fear had to do with the thought that I could, conceivably, be trapped into a marriage with someone who had the Head Honcho’s approval but who was SO far from what I wanted, it wasn’t funny.

    The Head Honcho had previously understood that I found said person unattractive and kinda strange (he definitely is the latter, though the well-meaning kind) and sympathized, but by the time in question, when the guy had gone through a broken engagement and renewed his attentions to me, the Head Honcho had become *extremely* authoritarian and also not as predisposed to like me, since I defied him by asking why the Nicene Creed wasn’t part of our church’s statement of faith, and also because I had, somewhat defiantly, never completed a Bible study he had assigned to me. (I know, I know, such little things, and unimportant, but to him, they were BIG deals. And, I guess, to me, in that I could assert my independence through them.)

    Anyway, my somewhat awkward suitor found someone else, finally, and afaik, they are still married. Last I knew, they had moved to Israel and adopted a child, which was about 10 years ago.

  185. Haitch wrote:

    asked the Pastor for my hand in marriage

    this is a conversation-stopper for sure! Did he think you were the property of said person?!!!

  186. numo wrote:

    Did he think you were the property of said person?!!!

    Never did figure that one out, we weren’t in that church for much longer (as a courtesy, my dad told the Pastor that we were leaving his church – Pastor stated, “You can’t leave until I release you” – my Dad (politely of course) “You know what you can do with your release”…

  187. numo wrote:

    Last I knew, they had moved to Israel and adopted a child, which was about 10 years ago.

    (unkindly) – so they’ve become a cliche…

  188. @ Haitch:
    Oh, he always wanted to go and live in Israel. And they were too old to have a child on their own. Honestly, she seemed like a nice woman, but he wanted someone who shared his missions fixation and I was not that person. He thought I might be because I was interested in Arabic music and culture, and liked hanging out with women from predominantly Muslim countries. But that was *not* about missions for me, and it still isn’t. (Though I do owe my basic intro. to Muslim Arab culture to someone who is a missionary, but a decent, balanced person who got married before the guy in question did.)

  189. numo wrote:

    about the early 20th c. origins of the lumberjack look – and myth

    Intriguing article, I need some time to properly read. Durkheim’s anomie and Marx’s alienation (or was that Weber?) is looming large.

    This paragraph:
    “From slaveholders fearing rebellion to patriarchs threatened by suffragettes, much of the scholarship on American masculinity focuses on men in crisis. White men are often portrayed as continuously jittery, always teetering on the edge of losing their birthright. But there are moments when this anxiety reaches a fever pitch, when the media and cultural critics turn their attention sharply to the plight of men. One such moment was at the turn of the last century, during a period of rapid urbanization and stark economic inequality. Americans are currently enduring another prolonged bout of unease, stretching back at least six years.”
    Lumbersexuality and Its Discontents, Willa Brown, The Atlantic, Dec 10, 2014

  190. @ Haitch:
    Which is exactly why I mentioned Teddy Roosevelt, not far upthread. He was a classic example of a neurasthenic who became a bully beef-eating kind of guy, complete with many guns, expedition-style khakis and furious facial hair.

  191. @ Haitch:
    she does not make the jump into certain gay looks/styles, though. But what she writes about real lumberjacks’ lives vs. the phony image invented by journalists is fascinating to me – even more so because the logging industry was not confined to the upper Midwest (nor is it now). I grew up/now live in a mountainous area in the East where lots of people have been wearing check shirts and carrying axes (mostly chain saws these days) since forever, and where there used to be logging camps.

  192.   __

    “Apostle Of Five-Fold 501(c)3 Religious Hysteria, Perhaps?”

    hmmm…

    Is C. Peter Wagner inflicted with ‘Mad Religion Syndrome’ (TM).

    I GET TO BE IN CHARGE!
    I GET TO BE IN CHARGE!
    I GET TO BE IN CHARGE!

    tromp, tromp, tromp!

    🙂

    (An endless movie with out happy end?)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OgxqNWoGmY

    THESE Apostles and Prophets get their commissions from the GOD THING, and can not be counteracted, counter-dicted, or over ruled. 

    —> C.O.N.T.R.O.L ?

    Another ‘501(c)3 Religious Leadership Accountability Issue Muck-Up’ (TM) in the making?

    (sadface)

    Sopy

  193. dee wrote:

    mirele wrote:

    I wonder if Wagner stayed in Kathmandu, or the United States and did her praying from afar.

    I do not think he was there but perhaps someone else can correct me. His wife stayed in a hotel but they made sure to say that she had no heat and she had to have two knees replaced when she returned to the US. I just shook my head as I read that part of the book.

    ROTFLOL!!!
    No, really: she prayed in an unheated room somewhere in the Himalayas?? Poor woman probably had Apostolic Frostbite. Its a wonder she didn’t have to have more body parts replaced…..
    Oh, wait. Maybe the other extremities were what became electric……That could save a fortune on the power bill.

  194. LT wrote:

    …organizing screaming rituals inside of pagan temples.

    But, but—where were the Pagans? Seems like screaming rituals should have brought them out in force….

  195. Nancy wrote:

    This is an idea that needs researched: that sometimes perhaps missionaries in some regions ‘go native’ religiously. I knew a missionary couple that had some strange tales to tell about some alleged demons that globbed onto them at a particular site and rode back home with them in the car-I am not up to date on all the details of the story at this point. I do think that this sort of thing would be easy to believe when confronted with some things in some cultures.

    This is a very good point. I remember reading a book by a previously well-thought-of missionary, who ended up believing in werewolves. She had tale after tale of being imprisoned by said werewolves. Shortly after, she was removed from the mission field by her sponsoring agency….but I was astounded at the number of intelligent Christian people who took her ravings quite seriously.

  196. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    What helped me most in critiquing them as forms of “Christian animism” was a lengthy conversation I had with a pagan/wiccan, and I realized that much of what she was saying sounded *almost exactly* like the spiritual warfare practices [rituals] promoted for countering principalities and powers, redeeming locations where evil had happened, etc. When the concepts of two groups are so very similar, you have to wonder if the so-called “Christian” version is actually a heavily syncretized edition of the non-Christian version.

    So true. I used to have friendly chats with a couple of local pagans, & they both sounded exactly like the stuff I later read in a Peretti novel. (Pressed on me by a well-meaning friend, who assured me “it will change your life”. Ummm…not so much. Thanks Heaven!!).

  197. mirele wrote:

    I found myself watching a few clips from the 1990 Handmaid’s Tale movie this evening.. I remember being disappointed with it at the time. I now wonder if I misjudged it…

    Try the book. It is MUCH better.

  198. zooey111 wrote:

    Shortly after, she was removed from the mission field by her sponsoring agency

    People who are susceptible to that sort of thing, either through mental instability (undiagnosed pre-existing condition) or through religious superstition need to be kept off the field for everybody’s good especially including their own good.

    Also, those areas of christianity which do not have a solid doctrinal position on evil itself need to beef up their position on evil and give people some sane and reasonable and biblical teachings in this area. It is not okay to just leave people unprepared and untaught and therefore fertile ground for some of this stuff. Here or abroad. In church or out.

  199. The 5-fold ministry ‘restoration’, Wimber and Wagnerian (!) so-called spiritual warfare are what drove me out of anything designating itself as charismatic. Brings back now fairly distant memories of the similarities between Toronto-ism and Kundalini yoga.

    As Daisy said earlier, there is a limited amount of truth in what they taught, but taken to a wholly unbiblical extreme. There is spiritual warfare in the NT, and principalities and powers are mentioned, but there is a deafening silence as to the rôle the church has to play in dealing with them, at least directly. Personally, I believe that is God’s prerogative alone, he has not ‘delegated’ authority to men to do this, unlike the authority to cast out demons if the situation requires it.

    Isn’t strategic spiritual warfare actually an immense distraction from the church doing what it has traditionally done? Getting on with preaching the gospel and trying to live it out in a group of believers. Or is that not exciting enough?

    Is this really feel-good activism in the face of a western church in long-term decline? Instead of dealing with a church’s visibly enfeebled witness due to unholy behaviour, start ‘taking authority over’ (aka shouting at) invisible powers?

    O foolish Charismatics! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

  200. Nancy wrote:

    It is not okay to just leave people unprepared and untaught and therefore fertile ground for some of this stuff.

    Very well put. There are things clearly mentioned in the NT that evangelicals shy away from dealing with, leaving the ground free for the weirdos to move in with there plausible-sounding nonsense. Non-mecial healing is a classic example of this.

  201. Ken wrote:

    Isn’t strategic spiritual warfare actually an immense distraction from the church doing what it has traditionally done? Getting on with preaching the gospel and trying to live it out in a group of believers. Or is that not exciting enough?

    That’s how it seems to me. Why not preach the Gospel you ask quite reasonably? I think it is because this is exciting to Joe or Jane Contributor, just as you said. It makes them feel significant and powerful to be involved with driving demons out of things and conquering the high places of the pagan gods. IMO it is the same reason people like me get sucked into churches that are overly concerned with doctrinal precision or other people get sucked into churches that are overly concerned with social justice issues or other people get sucked into churches that are overly concerned with holy-moliness. Various things make us feel good about ourselves, it puffs us up, and then it becomes all about us though we usually don’t realize it. Other times people are sucked into churches that promise certainty and relief from the anxieties of uncertainty so we get the control-freak churches.

    Many people go into a situation for worthy reasons expecting the best and find out it is not what we thought it would be. There is a con ready to exploit whatever weakness we have.

  202. Gram3 wrote:

    Many people go into a situation for worthy reasons expecting the best and find out it is not what we thought it would be.

    Oh, yes, and that is not limited to churches. Jobs can go bad. Schools can go bad. Marriages, oh my. Investments are notorious for going bad. Neighborhoods deteriorate. Friendships go sour. And headliners fall off pickup trucks (okay-maybe that’s different.) The trick is to know when to do something about it. It not easy to know when to do what because it is too easy to say that things used to be better and maybe they will be again and after all maybe it is not that bad. Except for headliners of course.

    We have just now in our family made arrangements for the last child still in public school to go to private school next year. We tried and tried to not have to do this, so I can understand why people just try to hang in there against all odds with some church that has developed rotten spots. After all, it can’t be all that bad and besides I remember when and just look at all these people who don’t see any problems requiring any drastic action and besides and besides and besides. Until the headliner, speaking metaphorically now, drops down enough to impede vision and then action is required; just in time for the person to regret not having done something sooner.

    Guilty as charged! Right here!

  203. Gram3 wrote:

    I think it is because this is exciting to Joe or Jane Contributor, just as you said. It makes them feel significant and powerful to be involved with driving demons out of things and conquering the high places of the pagan gods.

    Masters of Mighty Magick, binding and commanding DEMONS just like a Sorcerer!

  204. Ken wrote:

    Is this really feel-good activism in the face of a western church in long-term decline? Instead of dealing with a church’s visibly enfeebled witness due to unholy behaviour, start ‘taking authority over’ (aka shouting at) invisible powers?

    Displacement behavior.

    When things are way out-of-control, find something trivial you CAN control and micromanage it to death 24/7. With a bonus feature of not having to actually fix anything that’s really gone wrong because you’re too busy with the REAL important (literally Cosmic Importance) stuff.

  205. zooey111 wrote:

    mirele wrote:

    I found myself watching a few clips from the 1990 Handmaid’s Tale movie this evening.. I remember being disappointed with it at the time. I now wonder if I misjudged it…

    Try the book. It is MUCH better.

    I first thought the author based her near-future dystopia on Iran under the Ayatollahs, just swapping out the Islamic trappings for Christian.

    I later found she based it on an actual Baptist church she once attended. (I think we can guess what that church must have been like…)

    And the director for the movie said he did it specifically “To Piss off Those Xians (Am I Not Edgy?)”, which didn’t help matters.

  206. zooey111 wrote:

    Oh, wait. Maybe the other extremities were what became electric……That could save a fortune on the power bill.

    In Sixties counterculture slang, “Electric” meant “spiked with LSD.”

  207. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Yes and also. I mentioned before but it is applicable here; a nutshell from one of my kid’s recent continuing ed requirements. When thing get really bad (out-of-control like you said) people resort to the default safety of tribe and religion. These churches offer both, lots of high level and exciting religion which promises power over spirits or health and wealth or whatever, and also ‘we’ will be your tribe.

  208. numo wrote:

    @ Haitch:
    There’s a very good piece about the early 20th c. origins of the lumberjack look – and myth at this link. Haven’t gotten far enough into it to know if she traces it on into gay culture, where it definitely has had a niche for a long time, though.

    You said the Sekrit Woid:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZa26_esLBE

  209. numo wrote:

    The guy I’m speaking of wasn’t quite that weird, but he was not someone I’d ever found remotely attractive, and he definitely was the kind of person who believed God told him to marry x woman, and so on.

    There’s an Interent Meme I can’t find anymore that went like this:

    “YOU DON’T KNOW ME”
    (Picture of a young woman with a crazy stalker expression on her face)
    “BUT GOD JUST TOLD ME IN A DREAM THAT YOU *ARE* GOING TO BE MY HUSBAND”

  210. numo wrote:

    2. that she totally missed out on the idea of the internet – the closest she got was the machines that printed out prayers

    Internet (especially when mixed with smartphones 24/7) blindsided everybody.

    One of the hardest things in writing any “Twenty Minutes Into The Future” setting is having to tie said near future into an ever-moving Present.

  211. numo wrote:

    @ mirele:
    I re-read this a couple of years ago and was kind of surprised by two things:
    1. that she chose the Boston area as the setting for the theocracy

    Might be historical echo, referencing the Puritan Theocracy of the Massachusetts Bay Colony.

  212. Young daughter had a God told me that you are the one moment once. She accidentally dropped her notebook in the cafeteria at college and some young guy leaped on it, picked it up and declared that this was a sign from God that she had been chosen by God for him. He had put out a fleece and this was it. It scared her, of course.

  213. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: Again, yes, but she blithely ignores subsequent history (TTranscendentalist movement, Unitarianism in 19th and 20th c. NE) to get there. Which makes for a lack of credibility, especially since i am certain she must be familiar with Hawthorne, Emerson etc.

  214. Lydia wrote:

    This is the most bizarro world thing I have ever read. I have heard these names and of Vineyard but paid little attention. The “queen of heaven” confused me so I did a bit of a search in the O

    Bizarro certainly. But it doesn’t hold a candle to Scientology.

  215. Nancy wrote:

    Young daughter had a God told me that you are the one moment once. She accidentally dropped her notebook in the cafeteria at college and some young guy leaped on it, picked it up and declared that this was a sign from God that she had been chosen by God for him. He had put out a fleece and this was it. It scared her, of course.

    Best answer I have ever heard was “That’s funny. I was talking to Him just last night. And He didn’t even mention your name.”

  216. Huh. After reading this and the latest family break up from Calvary Temple it struck me that all of this sounds pretty familiar. I live in the Seattle area and there is a church out here in Kirkland called Christ Church. They have adopted some of this ARC theology. They are super controlling similarly to Calvary. Also there have been rumors of a sex abuse but no one will come forward because they wanted to deal with it in house with no police involvement. Might be worth looking in to.

  217. me wrote:

    “That’s funny. I was talking to Him just last night. And He didn’t even mention your name.”

    Good joke, another plus is if I use it I can attribute it to “me”.

  218. mirele wrote:

    numo wrote:

    I think, based on perdonal experience that the NAR is much, much scarier. Because their goal is world dominion for Jesus. Wish i was making that up, but… they are SO influential politically. This has been true since the beginning of the Reagan administation. Coincidentally (or not), quite a few of them are also part of Doug Coe’s group, The Fellowship, aka The Family, which Jeff Sharlet has written about – he did a terrific job.
    I met some Family members back in the 80s, when i lived in the D.C. area, but didn’t realize what the group really was. I don’t mean to sound like a vonspiracy theorist, but it’s fair to say that the NAR has friends in VERY high places, in Washington and in states like TX.

    Not to be sound all conspiracy theorist either, but a certain announced female presidential candidate is really, really tight with the Family/Fellowship and has been for a very long time. Their influence makes me very uneasy.

    Well, you can always vote for Lincoln Chafee, who has said that he will probably be challenging “her” in the primaries. Chafee used to be a Republican, then was an Independent for a while because the GOP ostracized him for voting against the Iraq war (which “she” voted for). Given what’s happening in that part of the world right now as a result of the Iraq invasion, I’d say Chafee has been vindicated.

  219. Nancy wrote:

    She accidentally dropped her notebook in the cafeteria at college and some young guy leaped on it, picked it up and declared that this was a sign from God that she had been chosen by God for him.

    Isn’t there a lot packed into that short sentence? Here is a boy who wants God to dominate him and tell him what to do. He thereby absolves himself from the hard word of having to get to know a girl, risk the hurt if it doesn’t work out, or then make the difficult (or not so difficult as the case may be) decision of whether to make a life-long commitment for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness or in health. A joint decision on their responsibility.

    No doubt if things don’t go smoothly, he will be the first to echo ‘the woman thou gavest me’ is the problem!

    Now the boy is to be commended for wanting God to be involved in the decision. And I imagine we all would sometimes wish that God had mapped out all of life’s decisions in advance, having predestined all that happens. Whether we like it or not, he hasn’t and we have to take responsibility for such decisions.

    Nevertheless, this sentence demonstrates a mentality of evading responsibility or of being fearful that opens the door for the control-freaks and authoritarians (aka “apostles and prophets”) to step in and play God.

  220. @ MidwesternEasterner:

    Thanks for the reference. I have ‘The Tipping Point’ which the article also references but have not read it yet. If decentralization make something more apt to succeed that says some bad stuff about the NAR impact. Folks used to say that you can stop an army but you cannot stop an idea.

  221. Nancy wrote:

    People who are susceptible to that sort of thing, either through mental instability (undiagnosed pre-existing condition) or through religious superstition need to be kept off the field for everybody’s good especially including their own good.

    Absolutely.My own opinion, from reading her story, is that she was superstitious in a very big way, & that should have been the tip off that the elevator wasn’t going all the way to the top.

    On a lighter note, in regard to the same subject: Did you know that werewolves eyes glow in the dark? (Cue eerie music).

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  223. zooey111 wrote:

    This is a very good point. I remember reading a book by a previously well-thought-of missionary, who ended up believing in werewolves. She had tale after tale of being imprisoned by said werewolves. Shortly after, she was removed from the mission field by her sponsoring agency….but I was astounded at the number of intelligent Christian people who took her ravings quite seriously.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MRu8N2K0NY

  224. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone effectively argue against the term “theotokos.”

    The church has historically identified quite a few heresies over the ages, but I think that denying that Christ is God has got to be one of the most fundamental ones.

    Mary bore God. Jesus was not only human.

  225. I’ve seen a few users here say “St. Mary”. Is that common?

    That’s a term that in my experience is rarely applied to her. I think I usually hear some combination of Holy, Ever, Blessed, and Virgin. Not that she isn’t a saint, but that the other titles sort of supersede it.

    e.g. in this Anglican prayer

    >”And grant that we may find our inheritance with the Blessed Virgin Mary, [and others…], and all the saints who have found favor with you in ages past. We praise you in union with them and give you glory through your Son Jesus Christ our Lord.”

    Or in this superlative-laden Orthodox exhortation:

    >”Calling to remembrance our most holy, most pure, most blessed, glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary, with all the Saints, let us commit ourselves and one another, and all our life unto Christ our God.”

    —-

    There’s a pretty corny but decent look at why why Mary is highly regarded in traditional Christianity here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA In particular interest is a defense of the title “Queen of Heaven” at the 10:00 mark. The short story is “The Queen is the King’s mother”. (Also, the Queen of Heaven in Jeremiah was Ishtar. Clearly just a different person with the same title. Sort of like how Caesar and Christ were both called “Lord”)

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  227. Clayton wrote:

    Mary bore God. Jesus was not only human.

    I liked this explanation at Orthodox Wiki

    “The Virgin Mary is the Theotokos, the mother of Jesus Christ, the Son and Word of God. She conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. She was cared for by her betrothed husband, Joseph, who took the child and his mother into his home as his own. One very strong tradition in the Orthodox Church holds that the birth of Jesus was also miraculous and left Mary’s virginity intact as a sign; it is also the tradition of the Church that Joseph and Mary did not have relations after the birth of Jesus. She is also called Panagia, the “All-Holy,” indicating her closeness to God in her obedience.
    The title Theotokos (in Greek, Θεοτοκος) is a Greek word that means “God-bearer” or “Birth-giver to God.”
    http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theotokos
    I think some evangelicals might object to Mary remaining a virgin after the birth of Jesus.

  228. dee wrote:

    I think some evangelicals might object to Mary remaining a virgin after the birth of Jesus.

    Some evangelicals object to Mary, period.

  229. What i find mildly hilarious and disturbing about this is that my first Baptist pastor probably wouldn’t have much issue with the theology of these space cadets, but wouldn’t take it to this practical extreme.

  230. There are 2 excellent interviews you all may be interested in about the NAR – its mission and possible effect on American politics – aired in 2011 on NPR by Terry Gross on Fresh Air. The first interview is with Rachel Tabachnick who discusses the growing influence of the NAR in the political world. She has been researching and writing about the apostles for more than a decade and describes the NAR as a Religio-Politcal Movement – a hybrid between a religious denomination and a political party – that the goal of the NAR is to reorganize protestant Christianity under the leadership of their apostleship.(http://www.npr.org/2011/08/24/139781021/the-evangelicals-engaged-in-spiritual-warfare) The second interview is with Peter Wagner himself – his quiet grandfatherly tones leave you wondering how such a nice man came to the idea that he has been appointed by God as Christianity’s modern day Apostle when he actually spent 30 years as a professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, so it’s not like he hasn’t studied the scriptures. Somewhere along the line he decided his interpretation of scripture contains new revelation. He’s been the mentor and leader to certain well-known prophets in the NAR such as Dutch Sheets, Cindy Jacobs, Chuck Pierce and Lou Engle. They have been, and could be still, considered ‘under his authority’ – in which Wagner says they are aligned apostolically. His resume also includes Co-founder of the World Prayer Center in Colorado Springs with Ted Haggard, the infamous mega-church celebrity pastor who since fell from grace via his secret dalliances with a male prostitute in Washington DC. That is part of the discussion in the interview you won’t want to miss. (http://www.npr.org/2011/10/03/140946482/apostolic-leader-weighs-religions-role-in-politics)

    Here’s the link to the media player if you want to bypass the articles:
    http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=139781021&m=139904642

  231. @ nkelly:
    Thank you for your comment.t In fact, we are looking at doing a few more posts on this subject. I have put your comment into a post and hope to get to it within the month.

  232. Looking forward to your future posts on the NAR! They have seemed somewhat off the radar in the last few years. Maybe they went under because Obama ended up in the White House again. We had read at one point C. Peter Wagner was considering moving to Canada so we thought that may have happened. There were people in our former circles who followed his teaching and urged us to read his books, but we were never able to get into them since they are rather exhaustive and his writing style pretty dry. We did read a lot of Dutch Sheets’ books back then, (who is one who has called Wagner his mentor) – he was easier to take in since he has the ability to speak in lay terms. I was just perusing Dutch’s website tonight and he is revved up and ready to take on America with his typical urgency. These people often refer to a short window of time in which the Lord is about to move in a dramatic way, but then when it doesn’t happen, they never seem to address why; and then of course they are on to the next prophetic move to be shared in an upcoming conference.

  233. @ lydia:

    And teaching at Fuller!

    I don’t know if I want to go here or not, in a comment thread about such things. But back in the day, I was at Fuller, and I even took that course MC510, I think it was called, taught by Wagner and Wimber, and assisted (in the lab portions of class) by Blaine of the piercing blue eyes and the acclaimed gifts of prophecy. At least, that’s how he was described to us.

    I tremble to enter this comment thread fray (because time limitations), and I’m very uninterested in the gnat-straining over doctrinal differences and nuances that I’ve seen upthread. In the 30+ years since that time (I think it was winter of 1983 that MC510 was offered), I’ve moved closer to an agnostic position. So my response overall is, Meh. But also Whoa! Wagner. Really?! Really?! It’s a curiosity, what the man has become.

    So why do I post? Because I was there. I’m an eyewitness. I do it for the love of history. You might have questions that I can answer, as I pull up recollections, 30-some years later.

  234. Sopwith wrote:

    Is Fuller, just another 501(c)3 religious suckers game? 

    I’d say no. Three schools — theology, psychology, world mission (as it was then, they may have named themselves differently now, with more nuance). Preparing people for ministry in the church, for psychological healing. And, when it comes to missiology, for understanding how to untangle one’s host culture from gospel so that when one goes to a different culture, one is at least aware of one’s own cultural baggage (white-person-from-America. sigh.)

  235. Vox wrote:

    So why do I post? Because I was there. I’m an eyewitness. I do it for the love of history. You might have questions that I can answer, as I pull up recollections, 30-some years later.

    Did Wagner ever discuss territorial spirits and how he got to know them by name?

    PS_Thank you for commenting.

  236. @ dee:
    dee wrote:

    Did Wagner ever discuss territorial spirits and how he got to know them by name?

    No, not that I recall.

    In fact, I remember reading about Wagner and his er new focus and being surprised by it.

    I vaguely remember taking his church growth class, which was a kind of way of analyzing factors that caused churches to grow, and different styles — or cultures– of churches. Example: some are corporate, some are traditional (liturgical churches, and, amazingly enough, Southern Baptist, both of which are steeped in tradition), some are crisis-oriented (the pentecostal/charismatic traditions, where churches revolve around “what is God doing/saying right now?”), and probably some others I can’t recall).

    At the MC510 (Signs n Wonders and Church Growth) class, Wagner showed up to it all right, but the discussion was all Wimber. Okay, if not ALL Wimber, then mostly Wimber. Class was broken up into two segments: Lecture and Lab. Lecture was perhaps an overview + discussion of phenomenology of S&W, mixed in w/ church growth. Then lab. I appreciated Wimber’s approach to lab: You are welcome to stay for it, or leave. You are welcome to ask questions about what’s going on. You are welcome to try it yourself. (such as, for instance, the laying on of hands for healing, or praying for blessings or whatever). There was zero –absolutely zero– of any attitude that implied that you were less than if you did not embrace what was happening or if you sought some kind of experience but didn’t have it (i.e., no bullying of the sort that you didn’t experience [x] because you didn’t have faith).

    (I think that Christianity Today did a story on the class. Look in the 1983 (or 1984) archives of CT)

    I do know that some people from Fuller went down to Yorba Linda/Anaheim Vineyard for Sunday evening services. I went along. There were at least a coupla adjunct Fuller faculty there; I don’t recall if the Wagners did or not.

    So, um, re: spirits and all that, the closest I recall of anything is what I’d call your everyday garden-variety spiritual warfare, binding of spirits and that sorta thing. Based on (I’m quoting vaguely vaguely vaguely) the saying What you bind on earth… what you bind on heaven. Heck if I know how it got from that to naming and knowing and delineating this principality versus that one.

    Oh, one other thing. I think I took the course twice, sort of. I audited it the first time around (the famous time, the one written about in CT) because I was scheduled to travel away from school before the quarter ended. Then I took it later on, when it was offered again. It met at a different venue on/near campus.

    P.S. You’re welcome!

  237. Vox wrote:

    So, um, re: spirits and all that, the closest I recall of anything is what I’d call your everyday garden-variety spiritual warfare, binding of spirits and that sorta thing. Based on (I’m quoting vaguely vaguely vaguely) the saying What you bind on earth… what you bind on heaven. Heck if I know how it got from that to naming and knowing and delineating this principality versus that one.

    Glad you are sharing Vox – your memories are compelling. I’m quoting this particular paragraph because I love how you say it and it’s been one of my questions – how does a person like Wagner transition into taking on too much spiritual activity? Someone mentions earlier in the comment thread (in so many words) that we are unwise to take on some stuff that we should leave for God to handle which I wholeheartedly agree. There is such thing as flying too high as one local Vineyard pastor put it. (The Vineyard was a stopover church for us upon leaving former church #1) Maybe taking on the Queen of Heaven is simply the age-old desire to be like God ourselves. Wagner seems, from his voice on the NPR interview, so mildly mannered – grandfatherly – but make no mistake there is an agenda underneath – and I wonder if it’s his own brand of crazy…