(I dedicate this quote to Amy)- "As fire when thrown into water is cooled down and put out, so also a false accusation when brought against a man of the purest and holiest character, boils over and is at once dissipated, and vanishes and threats of heaven and sea, himself standing unmoved." Marcus Tullius Cicero link
Deep Throat Contacts
One reason I was quite excited to marry my husband was because his last name was easy to spell. My maiden name (now my middle) was Russian: Nalesnik. Few could spell it or pronounce it. The principal of Salem High School (yes, the mascot was a witch) still couldn't pronounce my last name at my high school graduation and ended up spelling it out as I walked across the stage, shaking my head.
Parsons. Now that is a nice easy name althoug,h for some reason, people sometimes think I say Carson. I call it the Downton Abbey effect. I have met many Parsons on my journeys. I had only twice met people who had ever heard the name Nalesnik outside of my hometown. Recently I received a confusing call on our Wartburg Watch phone line. Here is roughly how it went. I am concealing his first name, bless his heart.
Hi. This is Dr. X Parsons. I live in Raleigh, NC and I keep getting mail for a Dee Parsons. I have thrown away several packets because the postal delivery guy didn't know who that was and there was no return addresses on any of this mail.
This time, I decided to figure this out. I opened it up and saw a letter talking about a Prestonwood Church and some abuse thing so I looked up The Wartburg Watch online and found this number. Why am I getting your mail?
I started to laugh because my husband knows this Dr Parsons quite well. He had also taken care of my dad just before he passed away. I told him who I was. He then said:
What in the world is The Wartburg Watch and what does this have to do with a Baptist church?
I then gave him a brief explanation of the various issues we cover on this blog. He kindly offered to leave the mail out in his side yard for me to pick up.
Folks, if you want to send us anonymous mailings with no return address, please make sure you get the correct "Dr Parsons" or your information might not make it into our hands. Parsons is a common name.
However, I have also received anonymous mailings at my correct address. In fact, in the last month, I got one packet containing pictures purporting to demonstrate that there was an affair between two people that we have discussed in the recent past. The photos are somewhat convincing and I am not the only one who received them. I am speaking with other recipients to figure out how to handle this.
Here's our deal. We defend anyone's right to be anonymous on this blog. We finally revealed our names one year into blogging so that we could put our names in the gap as people pour out their stories of abuse and pain. We believe in confidentiality and we do not disclose anything that we are told to keep in confidence. We are serious about this.
However, if you are sending us information that you wish us to use in a post, the Deebs will need to learn your names which we will hold in strictest confidence. We do this to protect ourselves. We cannot knowingly publish information that we have not vetted. If you wish to send us information, please include your name and a way to contact you. We will never disclosed that to anyone. If you do not do so, we cannot publish the information. At some point you will have to trust us.
Also, this is to notify everybody who has sent us anonymous mailings that ended up at the wrong address that Dr X Parsons probably threw them away since there was no way to "Return to Sender."
I have been giggling a bit about these mailings. When we started this blog, we were pretty sure that there would be few people who read it. Truly! Now, we are getting covert mailings, complete with dates, times, conversations, tweets, etc. I always wanted to be a part of a conspiracy-a real one. Perhaps I am getting closer and closer!!!
When we will publish an anonymous mailing.
We will publish any mailing that appears threatening toward any individual. We will report this to the police and notify the individuals named in the mailing. If we can find out who sent the anonymous threatening letter, we will also publish their names. We are here to serve the abused, not to serve the abusers and their BFFs.
Believe it or not, this was a prelude to this next story.
Amy Smith and the Anonymous Packet
On January 30, 2015, Amy published Mega Manifesto: On Behalf of Prestonwood Baptist Church and Convicted Child Molester John Langworthy .
Over the last two weeks 26 named individuals have received an anonymous package in the mail. Inside was a 24 page essay. I am the subject of this composition.
The anonymous writer spends dozens of pages attacking my truthfulness, motivations, and personal character. He claims to be a proponent of Jack Graham and the rest of the leadership at Prestonwood Baptist Church. The letters were addressed to a variety of people: Prestonwood leadership, SNAP leaders, TV and newspaper reporters, bloggers, and others. He did not send me a copy, but several of my contacts sent me theirs.
In case you have not figured this out, TWW was one of the 26 named recipients. If you go to the link, you can read the entire missive (24 pages worth). I received this entire document. If you go to the link, you will see the names of the individuals who received this credo. Dee is pleased to be included along with Tom Rich, Christa Brown, Boz Tchvidjian, Wade Burleson, Bob Allen, Brett Shipp, Brad Sargent and others. (Love these guys!)
Amy reports this mailing to the police.
Why? I called her after reading the epistle and expressed my concerns regarding her safety. By the way, I am holding on to this mailing in case it is needed as evidence.
Among his many ramblings, you’ll find an alarming quote on Page 19: “I am dead serious and committed to exposing Amy Smith’s many falsehoods and stopping her continued and relentless attacks upon Prestonwood and Jack Graham.” The combination of threatening language (“dead serious”, “stopping her”) and creepy anonymity meant I had to report this to the local police. They have taken my statement, copies of the letter and envelope, as well as other collateral materials, and they have begun their investigation. It is a federal crime to threaten someone using the Post Office, and the authorities assured me they take this seriously.
What about the pedophile? He was merely indiscrete.
In twenty-four pages he uses so many negative adjectives to describe me that I chose to stop counting. “Bogus”, “fact-free”, “obsessed”, “scurrilous” just to name a few. But he doesn’t write a single negative thing about confessed , convicted child rapist John Langworthy. Quite the contrary, this writer describes him as “high-spirited, engaging, and charismatic”. And when he finally mentions the subject of Langworthy’s five counts of child sexual abuse, he calls them “indiscretions.”
This is at the core of the problem of religious institutions’ failure to address these crimes: men like him obviously do not see them as despicable crimes perpetrated against the most innocent in society. These church leaders and their spokespeople minimize the sickening behavior of these felons. This is a theme that SNAP leaders, volunteers, and countless survivors immediately recognize, and it is shameful that churches still ignore it.
The writer asserts that the pedophile only harmed one victim.
He is mistaken. However, even then, in his thinking is only one victims OK?
The writer claims that only one person was sexually abused by John Langworthy during his tenure at Prestonwood, and that the sexual contact began after this person’s 17th birthday. The entire twenty-four page document rests on this single claim. Unfortunately for the victims, the families, and this anonymous writer, this claim is entirely false. I have communicated with three male survivors that John Langworthy molested at Prestonwood, and each of them were minors when the crimes were committed, and Langworthy was in a ministerial position of trust over them.
Anonymous chooses to use positives descriptors of this convicted predator.
Here is what Amy had to say. (Well said, Amy).
As I mentioned earlier in my blog post, you’ve found hundreds of ways to insult my character. And yet you describe a confessed, convicted child predator as: “very talented, high-spirited, engaging, and charismatic.” I may never understand what drives you to write such words about this disgusting criminal. Is it your ignorance of how child predators attract their prey? Is it your extremely low intelligence? Or is it that you can commiserate with John Langworthy’s attraction to underage boys?
Anonymous said the abused kid and his parents had no problem with it!
This reflects an individual that does not understand the long term affects of abuse.
Either through ignorance, unintelligence, or deceit, you have the wrong view of the victims of child sexual abuse. These victims, and often their families, suffer in silence for years and decades after the abuse. This is the rule, not the exception. Stories like Dale Hansen, R.A. Dickey, Teri Hatcher and Tyler Perry are just higher profile stories that show how long it can take for a victim of child sexual abuse to go public with the crime committed against them. You and your friends at Prestonwood Baptist confuse silence with consent.
Anonymous despicably brings up Amy's parents.
TWW has written Amy's story in the past. This is perhaps the saddest part of the narrative. As she sought to bring a predator to justice, her parents told her that they never want to see her again. In 2012, TWW posted Amy's story Prestonwood Baptist: A Heroic Stand Amidst Parental and Church Betrayal. Amy's parents told her that they didn't want to see her, her husband and grandchildren again because she was exposing this story. Please read this heartbreaking story.
Through the last couple of years, Amy and I keep up with one another because I want her to know that she is a much loved hero to me. Wade Burleson even offered to adopt her family!
Here is what Amy had to say to Mr Anonymous who seems to have an abusive streak in him.
I find it shocking that you claim to know my parents. I also find it very telling that this would be part of your letter. This has been the most heartbreaking and difficult part of telling the truth: that my own mother and father would choose their former church over me.
We spent the better part of a year, long after the story broke, trying to meet with my parents face-to-face. In a series of phone calls and emails we were either ignored or told no. My father insists that I have to apologize to Jack Graham and Neal Jeffrey before he ever sees me again.
You write “I know that my parents would treat me the same way if I did what Amy has done no matter how much they love me or my children.” You have really horrible parents. Between your parents and the churches you’ve attended, you have failed to see what true love really is.
In one of the most bittersweet moments of this traumatic episode, I had to tell my children that their grandparents had emailed us that they never wanted to see us again. But it forced me to tell them outright that I would never do that to them; I would always love them unconditionally. There is nothing they can say or do that would ever make me reject them. In fact, as I told them, even if they pushed me away, I would pursue them. If God, in all his perfection, could love me in that way, it is the least I can do to love my children unconditionally.
You urge some of your readers to reach out to my parents to hear their side of the story; this is one of the few things we agree on. Though they still refuse to speak to me, they are free to tell their story publicly. Moreover, I wish you would do the same. You spent a considerable amount of time writing your letter, but I am unaware of you ever engaging me directly. My phone number, email, and website are certainly easy to find. I invite you to post comments on my blog.
Back to the Dallas Observer and Amy Silverstein wrote, on 2/25/15, An Advocate for the Sexually Abused Demands Answers from Prestonwood Baptist Church. It was also featured on their cover under the title of Don't Ask; Don't Tell.
I will be using the quotes from Amy's blog post which she got from the Dallas Observer.
Amy is the reason Langworthy was convicted.
But for the last several years, the church has come under scrutiny from a small, vocal group of Christian critics for its handling of child sexual abuse. None of the critics has been more effective than Amy Smith, the daughter of a former Prestonwood deacon. Five years ago, Smith alerted a church in Mississippi that a pastor on its staff had been quietly accused of child molestation at Prestonwood decades before.
John Langworthy, a former youth minister at Prestonwood, resigned from the Mississippi church not long after Smith spoke up and soon faced criminal charges in that state. He pleaded guilty to molesting five boys between the ages of 6 and 13 in the early '80s in Mississippi. He avoided prison time and is now registered as a child sex offender. Smith was widely credited for bringing Langworthy's crimes to light and causing him to admit to "sexual indiscretions" from the pulpit of his Mississippi church. The case disappeared from headlines soon after, but Smith has stayed on Prestonwood's case, holding rallies outside the church, seeking other victims and publicly pressuring Graham to open up about what he knew of Langworthy's crimes.
A Prestonwood Langworthy survivor's mom spoke to the Observer.
When the family moved to Dallas and began attending Prestonwood in the late 1980s, her 15-year-old son was a quiet kid who never gave his parents trouble. "I don't know what I would have done if I had a child that didn't do the right things, but he was a model child," his mother says.
But she sensed something was off early on, when Langworthy paid a surprise visit to their home shortly after they arrived. "I just love your son," Langworthy told her as he put his arms around him.
The next warning the mother remembers are the letters. Langworthy had been mailing notes to her son. She doesn't remember what they said exactly. They weren't sexually graphic, but were suggestive enough to raise flags. Her mother-in-law looked at the letters too, she says, and was even more alarmed. "She was afraid that John was a pedophile," she says. So the family called Langworthy. He couldn't get there fast enough. They told him not to hurt their son.
The mother says she looked Langworthy in the eye. "Under no circumstances are you to write any more letters to my son," she says she told him. The parents explained to their son that the letters were wrong and destroyed them, but they continued to go to the church and let their son be part of the youth group, just like before.
The mother says she didn't think Langworthy would actually abuse her son, especially after being warned. "Even if [Langworthy] wanted to, he would not hurt my son now because we had confronted him with it," she rationalized.
Life briefly returned to normal, or so she thought until the day she got a phone call from a psychiatrist to confirm an appointment with her son. She knew nothing about it.Later on the day of that surprise call, her son came home with a guest, Neal Jeffrey, who remains on the Prestonwood staff as an associate pastor. Together, she says, her son and the man broke the news that her son had been hurt. Jeffrey was there, the mother thinks, because her son "wanted somebody there to tell us, because he didn't want to do it by himself." Still unsure of the specifics, she only knows that Langworthy had sexually abused her son, somehow. They had a group hug, and she agreed to send her son to the psychiatrist, appointments that she believes were funded by the church. "We sure weren't going to pay for it," she says.
The mother alleges that a Prestonwood deacon, Allen Jordan, used threatening language about going to the police.
But the family never reported Langworthy to the police. A phone call they got from a deacon named Allen Jordan convinced them it wouldn't be a good idea. He wasn't yelling, but he was emphatic the family not say anything, the mother recalls. "You better be careful about what you write, that's all I've got to say," Jordan said when reached for comment. "That's a warning to you. You better be careful about what you write."
Boz Tchividjian weighed in on this story.
On 2/28/15 Boz wrote “Righteous” reputations of churches that don’t care on his blog.
Why do so many churches fail to do the right thing when they learn that one of their own has been accused of sexual abuse? All too often it’s because the victimized are repeatedly overshadowed by the need to protect a “righteous” reputation. I’m afraid it’s a rationale embraced by so many church leaders because it’s convenient and sounds so “godly”. Here is an example of this distorted thought process:
The reputation of the church will be damaged when the public learns that it employed an alleged child molester -> a church whose reputation is damaged will lose members -> a church that loses members is a church that loses income -> a church that loses income is a church that will be required to tighten it’s budget, including reducing salaries and laying off staff -> a dwindling church is a church that has less relevance in the community -> a church that has less relevance in the community is a church that is failing to impact the world for Jesus.
Tragically, this type of response to the evils of abuse destroys lives, emboldens offenders, and produces churches that are rotting at the core. There’s nothing “righteous” about it.
He even tweeted about it.
I am so glad that Amy is getting the recognition she deserves. She has given up much to pursue a perpetrator who harmed many. She has put the victims ahead of the comfort she could have received from her parents. I believe that Amy exemplifies sacrificial love in action. She is my hero, Mr Anonymous. She should be yours as well.
We dedicate the following song to Mr Anonymous.
Lydia's Corner: Leviticus 9:7-10:20 Mark 4:26-5:20 Psalm 37:30-40 Proverbs 10:6-7
First?
@ Dipteran:
You have demonstrated that you are a contender for the fastest blogging reflexes! Well done!
Hah – simple chance. Thanks, though.
Thanks for continuing to shine a light into the dark recesses of the Church. It’s so needed. It shouldn’t be needed, alas, but it is.
Amy, you are a hero! Hugs from Canada.
Why is it that some of the worst of christianity comes from IFB baptist churches? Is it mainly just the Independent, Fundamentalist, Baptist (IFB) churches? You can’t throw a rock here in Georgia without hitting one of these kinds of churches!
@ Dan from Georgia:
This is a Southern Baptist Church and Jack Graham was the President of the SBC.
Uck, that ‘document’ is utterly grotesque, as is the mind that birthed it. ‘Indiscretions’ indeed. At least it just digs a bigger hole for the writer, who could take that seriously?
Proud of you guys.
I read Boz T’s blog that you linked to. There is either a convincing troll or a very disturbed man who makes some chilling comments defending pedophiles in the comments. Trigger warning for some. Avoid the comments by James Townsend if you need to.
Dee,
What a small world! The other Dr. Parsons is my hubby’s physician. He has his annual check- up later this month. I’ll have him ask if any other mail for TWW has arrived lately. đ
At my Post Office (not in NC) you cannot mail a package without a return address. I thought the PO wouldn’t deliver them. They photocopy every last letter that goes through the USPS system which is quite unbelievable. Well, I was wrong as you and the other Parsons person shows it. (“Parsons person” has so much alliteration and consonance).
Darn! I take advantage of National Napping Day and eight people already posted by the time I woke up.
Amy Smith!! Love ya girl, keep it up!
đ
Eric S wrote:
I think he’s real because he sounds like a sex offender. Notice his equation of sexual immorality between consenting adults and pedophilia – sin leveling. He seems to think the only difference between him and everyone else is that his sins are on a public registry. His comments are chilling. He doesn’t get it and he doesn’t want to. Good thing his probation officer does.
Thanks for this post, ladies! As you pointed out I received this packet. I read it and tucked it away and didn’t give it much thought. It really wasn’t the anonymity that made me suspicious that this writer was spreading lies about Amy. Rather it is my first hand knowledge and experience: THIS IS WHAT RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS DO. They whisper about those who have dared to criticize their beloved “man of God” and their Holy Church. I experienced the same. Amy’s was an anonymous mailing. Mine was lies told to deacons. Insinuations about me. He’s a mail stealer. A stalker. Friends of 15+ years who heard the whispers and believed them.
So, so glad to be delivered from these religious zealots and religious dens. Amy, those of us who received the mailing know that this is how they play. Keep on keeping on!!!!
I was so thoroughly disgusted by this attack on Amy Smith, I couldn’t read the mega document? Just glancing at this mega document I knew it was of the devil, and Amy is right, this person is a coward. This person also has no conscience belittling what happened to the victims and glorifying Langworthy. I might add sociopath to coward as a description of the mega document’s author.
âŚReally? That’s child’s play next to some of the names I’ve seen. You could have grown up with something like Muellerleile, Keurulainen, Korenkiewicz, etc.
@ Hester:
The trick is in the pronunciation.
Tom R wrote:
Its great to hear from you Tom! It seems we are thought of as running in the same sort of circles that likes to get vaguely threatening missives.
I am heading down your way this weekend. I am staying at my brother in law’s house on Sanibel. How far is that from Jacksonville? We will be there about a week.
Marsha wrote:
I celebrated that yesterday but slept in a bit today.
Tom R wrote:
So sadly true. Been there, done that.
dee wrote:
About 8-9 hours is my guesstimate. Sanibel is off the SW coast, JAX is NE corner. Sanibel is still a great place.
@ dee:
“The trick is in the pronunciation.”
++++++++++++++++++
so, it’s not ‘NALessnick’, then.
@ elastigirl:
or naLESSnick…
Marsha wrote:
I found several men with the same name on the national registry of sexual offenders. I believe it is one of them commenting.
The mother alleges that a Prestonwood deacon, Allen Jordan, used threatening language about going to the police.
Allen Jordan is my dad. (We think this also could very well be the name of the anonymous mailer Mr. Coward.)
Thank you Dee. You are amazing. And thank you all at TWW for your kind words. I’m reading them all and it means a lot to me.
Dear Adopted Daughter;
“Allen Jordan is my dad.”
My admiration for you went past Pluto and is gathering steam as it enters another galaxy.
Godith wrote:
Unbelievable. Yes. Can you point to any documentation on this?
Hi Dee – Sanibel is in the far corner of the state, probably 8 hours away! Have a great time!
Amy Smith wrote:
Hold on, you suspect your Dad wrote this? Or did I read that wrong?
Amy, thank you.
Amy, thank you for sticking your neck out. PS you are very fortunate/blessed/lucky (however you want to count it) to have Wade Burleson as your adopted dad !
I just watched the Temple Grandin DVD where she grabs her courage and walks through challenges which she sees as a door to be opened. Thanks for walking through this door Amy.
I just can’t believe a family that would send a son back into that situation – it goes beyond naivety to subscribing to church indoctrination and brainwashing I think. Have they become so imbued with the man-made system called the “SBC way to act” that they can’t even summon a ‘normal human response’ to the situation? They have lost their personality, their emotions, their individuality. They have surrendered to others what God gave them. What a deficit of intelligence and wisdom. They have let themselves be robbed.
@ NC Now:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/07/03/the-u-s-government-tracks-all-the-snail-mail-you-send-too/ There are many other places to link to, but this should answer your question.
@ dee:
Sanibal! :-O MOM!!!! Don’t waste that vacation! I expect to see you in front of the Lord screaming, “Look Lord my Pug collection!!”
And make sure you get crazy with your arms and go a million miles an hour. You need to do that if you are going to impersonate John Piper himself.
@ Amy Smith:
Love you Amy. You make it out to DC and I will buy you a meal! đ
elastigirl wrote:
Add a *y* in front of *es* and emphasize that.
Amy Smith wrote:
He has given up so much and for what? Thank you for doing what is right in the midst of such sacrifice. You are wonderful! When I saw the quote by Cicero, I thought of you. “Standing unmoved”
@ Tom R:
Well, darn! One of these days!
Beakerj wrote:
Yes. Her dad has been awful since this whole thing started. He has written her out of his life. Her mom doesn’t contact her either.
Think about it. They are defending a church over their daughter. I sure hope they get something out of this because they have made a terrible choice. At the end of their lives, the pastors won’t be standing by their side. It is usually children. And they do not have the pleasure of seeing their wonderful grandchildren-one of whom survived heart surgery right after she was born.
@ dee:
I was confused about this like Beakerj.
This then is a real life example of Matt 10: 34-6. I can’t imagine what this must be like when it is your own family doing this to you.
I’m finishing up the book Twisted Scriptures: Breaking Free From Churches That Abuse by Mary Alice Chrnalogar. (How’s THAT for a surname!)
Mr. Anonymous (no relation!) bears all the hallmarks of having received long-term, insidious thought control in an abusive church environment, as outlined in this book. He is fully responsible for his evil slander, but behind this is a rather terrifying glimpse of what can go wrong even in a mainstream denomination with manipulative, out-of-control leadership and pew-fillers who can’t or won’t engage their critical thinking skills.
To Allen Jordan-Amy’s dad
The greatest joy in my life is being with my adult children along with my one daughter’s husband. We take vacations together, go out to eat dinner together and celebrate holidays together. My son in law and my daughters like to cook and we share recipes via text. I warn them all about bad weather (I am called Weather mom).
We send each other pictures of birds that we see as well as funny pictures of all of our dogs acting goofy. I look forward to the day we have grandchildren as well. That will only add more joy to the joy we now have.
You are giving this up for what? Because you think Prestonwood did it correctly? So what? You made your point. We will never agree with one another 100%. The joy of having a loving family who cares about one another is the best gift you can have.
I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry for your wife who doesn’t get to see her awesome grandchildren. You are impoverished, more so than many people in this world.
Please come to your senses before it is too late. If you don’t, I guarantee that one day you will find out that this as the worst mistake that you made in your whole life.
Just to clarify, I’m not cutting Mr. Anonymous any slack. Oh no. Just saying he’s glaring evidence that something is very, VERY wrong at Prestonwood. You don’t have to be in the jungle in Guyana to be in a cult-like environment.
Ken wrote:
I cannot imagine that as well. Amy has shared with me some of his communication with her. I am shocked to see how parents can turn their backs on their precious daughter, son in law and grandchildren over a church. Unless they come to their senses, they will deeply regret this at the end of their lives.
@ Godith:
Both of the mailings that I received came without return addresses. Neither of these were mailed in North Carolina. One was mailed from a northern state and the other was mailed from Texas.
@ Eric S:
I read his comments. he is not well educated because his comments make little sense. Besides being a pedophile, which is horrible enough, he appears to have other psych problems as well. I wonder if his parole officer is aware of his comments?
Eagle wrote:
I do find it rather amusing that I am going to Sanibel when you are writing about Piper. he uses the example of a couple who retire early and spend their days sailing and collecting shells on Sanibel Island. I shall look at shells and think of him.
I often wonder if perhaps this couple appreciates the wonder of the creation more than John Piper does. Remember Mary and Martha? Mary sat at the feet of Jesus and listened. There is a place for those who see His creation and revel in it.
Haitch wrote:
Look at “Jihad John”, the butcher-knife guy in all those ISIS videos.
Imbued with the system called the “ISIS Islamic Caliphate way to act”.
dee wrote:
Assuming he has a parole/probation officer. Does he mention one in his Manifesto, or does it seem as though he’s never been caught?
Amy, I don’t even know how to articulate my thoughts on all this. It is just so deceptive and evil. And having to contend with your own parents choosing a building and a celebrity over their own daughter grieves me to no end. (I have some in my family doing exactly the same)
I hope those who have not had to contend with such things pay close attention to what is going on here: What is coming out of these celebrity driven churches is pure deception. It is all image over truth. EVERYTHING is about growing and maintaining the institution no matter who is hurt or ruined. And people either wittingly(leaders) or unwittingly sell their souls to this deception.
There is nothing more beautiful than truth. And yes, I am including negative truths in that. Negative truths need to be exposed to light so they can be disinfected.
There is nothing more scary than those who have sold their souls to an insitution or celebrity.
dee wrote:
Well, many thought Piper was going to darkest Africa on missions after his retirement. Instead, he flew to Geneva with his film crew to announce his new focus a 21st Century John Calvinistic Global Apostle. Then he moved to Nashville.
Expensive retirement announcement. But why not? It was Other Peoples Money. :o)
Beakerj wrote:
Yes. Word for word it sounds just like him. And I have other reasons to believe it is him. We think he probably has help though. The last communication we had with my parents was in late November 2013. My dad left a very angry voicemail at our home saying, “Amy has hurt enough people for long enough. I’m going on the offensive.” He also told my husband shortly after my WFAA channel 8 news interview in 2011, “You and Amy are going to pay a big price for what’s been done here.”
Lydia wrote:
The networks they form is really scary and that just spreads the toxicity. Free churches who want to remain faithful need to be aware of this vulnerability.
Amy, you are an inspiration for your courage and dedication to the truth. Thank you so much for standing up to vicious men. I’m so terribly sorry to hear that your father has taken their side. He and your mother will regret this in the years to come, I assure you. May their eyes be opened soon.
I shared the audio with Dee of my husband’s call to my dad in August of 2011. It was about 2 weeks after the WFAA story aired that broke the story about Langworthy and Prestonwood. My husband recorded the call (legal in TX) because we had gotten an email from my parents and knew they were upset with me. My husband wanted me to be able to hear exactly what was said. It was heartbreaking. I never wrote or talked publicly about this call for a couple of years until my dad emailed us with the transcript of that entire call that he had put together. I had earlier sent him the audio of the call to inform him that I had heard every word. He seemed proud of his words since he put together this transcript and sent it to other family members, including my 2 younger brothers. Langworthy lived with my family for a few months when I was in high school. I fear my brothers are victims. Here is a link to the transcript of the call with my dad: https://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/135223354#fullscreen
As for the anonymous manifesto against Amy: I haven’t read the screed yet, but just from what I’ve heard and the excerpts I’ve seen, it sounds kind of familiar somehow…
Let’s see… written anonymously… filled with disgusting accusations towards a critic, but nothing to back them up… not sent to the critic herself, but broadcast to just about everyone else… what does that remind me of…?
Oh, I remember! http://tonyortega.org/2013/07/31/scientology-admits-connection-to-slimy-anonymous-attack-sites-again/
Ah, Allen Jordan (or whoever wrote that stuff). Is this really the image you want your precious church to have?
@ Amy Smith:
I didn’t know if i should say anything about that call. I am so glad that you posted it here.
@ dee:
Here’s the latest piece I journaled. I’ve been wanting to get this off my chest for a while now.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/03/10/my-mothers-pancreatic-cancer-john-piper-and-me/
@ Amy Smith:
Isn’t that a sign of a cult? That a person would choose a church/religious group over family. That happens in Mormonism and so many other sects. That’s awful. You come to DC Amy and I’ll give you a hug and we can cry together.
@ Eagle:
Eagle, I’ll be at the SNAP national conference in DC this summer July 31-Aug 2. You should come too!
http://www.snapnetwork.org/2015_snap_conference
Lydia wrote:
I know exactly what you mean by this. But – and this is what makes the deception easier to swallow and arguably doubly dangerous – having looked at Prestonwood’s web site out of curiosity it’s not all bad.
It has a pretty orthodox evangelical statement of faith. Now I’m getting a bit long in the tooth to be taken in just by that, this does not necessarily equate with spiritual health. But I’ve known of plenty of churches who make little secret of having ditched much of the NT, and found more modern ear-tickling substitutes. So this church looks good in comparison.
The only warning light for came on with the how to become a Christian section, which was the traditional sinner’s prayer with little emphasis on respentance or counting the cost. Now I came in that way, ‘accepting Jesus’, many converts have a pretty incomplete explanation of the gospel, we are not saved by doctrinal correctness. Saying a prayer/decisional regeneration is not enough on its own, this is a major weakness in much of evangelicalism, often the reason there are so many problems later.
The only other thing from a pretty short trip around the site was a feeling that this – church – could easily start to become the most dominating aspect of life, coupled with programmes that gave me an uneasy feeling of there being a technique to being a Christian. This might be though because I come from the other side of the Pond, British churches aren’t into big programmes as a rule. I would bit happier at some statement that most of your life as a Christian is spent doing ‘normal’ things like everyone else. It shouldn’t revolve solely around churchy things.
I can’t help get the feeling that one programme or mentoring or encouragement group that is missing is one teaching that Christians should value their family connections more highly than church loyalty, especially if they are all supposed to be believers.
@ Ken:
FBC Jax Watchdog wrote about Jack Graham preaching a message on shunning your friends and family if they criticize Prestonwood or don’t think it’s the “greatest church in the world.”
Jack Graham Explains How to Have Your Best Christmas: Shun Church Critics, Especially Those “Watchdoggers”
Here is Pastor Jack’s advice:
“There’s lots of bloggers and watchdoggers who love to attack pastors and churches…maybe people you hang out with who love to attack churches and be negative about the church. My advice to you if you want to be happy in life is to get as far away as possible from those people. They’re only going to drag you down….Instead, get around people who say something like this: ‘Isn’t it great what God is doing in our church?'”
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2013/12/jack-graham-explains-how-to-have-your.html?m=1
@ dee:
I will email Mr. Tchividjian with my concerns. From his background, he is probably on it already, but just to be sure….
Ken wrote:
I’d have to first explain “American” to you, then “SBC” to you, and then W.A. Criswell’s influence to you, and then “Texas” to you, and then “Dallas” to you, and then “North Dallas” to you. Then it *might* make some sense. đ
This D Magazine piece might help put Prestonwood’s history into perspective and explain the roots of what I believe is a culture of corruption and abuse from its founding: http://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/1989/july/the-second-coming-of-billy-weber
Lydia wrote:
Apparently, a film shoot in lovely downtown Geneva is not Wasting Your Life (TM).
Eagle wrote:
BINGO.
Gram3 wrote:
Wasn’t the Dallas Megachurch scene the setting for that book and TV series “Good Christian Bitches”?
P.S. Whenever I hear the name “Criswell”, I think of the Fifties Celebrity Psychic who did a lot of voice work for Ed Wood.
@ Amy Smith:
Oh Amy I am SO sorry. What a blind fool he is being. That’s just awful.
Eric S wrote:
I’m so glad – I expect he does know but no harm checking. That guy is just textbook & got some great pushback in the thread, part of it from a retired Parole Officer who was having none of his nonsense, & basically said that ‘oh yes God is your chaperone, through your parole officer’ đ
@ Gram3:
“Iâd have to first explain âAmericanâ to you, then âSBCâ to you, and then W.A. Criswellâs influence to you, and then âTexasâ to you, and then âDallasâ to you, and then âNorth Dallasâ to you. Then it *might* make some sense. ;)”
+++++++++++++
You’re funny. (in this case, because truth is funnier than comedic fiction — as well as stranger than fiction)
I’d be interested in hearing your take on all this. If you have opportunity.
@ elastigirl:
Sorry, I saw humor and it just wanted to be picked, hanging here all shiny in the sun. I know the topic of this post is especially painful. Amy Smith, I support you in all of this.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
As usual, I have no idea what you are talking about except when you mention Orwell or various dictators. đ
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Criswell did some good things, and I owe a lot to him personally though I never met him. He is not a god, however.
@ dee:
“so, itâs not âNALessnickâ, then.”
“Add a *y* in front of *es* and emphasize that.
+++++++++++
nalYEZZZnick? (or should I go back to the ss) (always curious about names)
Amy
Thank you for standing up for justice and seeing this situation through. I can not imagine the personal pain you have experienced as your own family has turned against you.
I read the transcript of the phone call between your father and husband. The things your father said make absolutely no sense whatsoever so you should understand that in this matter he currently can not think clearly. One of his main contentions was that this is all in the past and although the perp had molested young children while in college, the boys at Prestonwood were older so that makes it ok? the failure in logic and justice is staggering.
Also on pg 5 I noticed his argument is that this sort of thing can not be stopped, it is gonna happen so why destroy lives and churches to see that justice is done? I sat reading that and said WOW what a scary thought.
Last thing, your dad asked a question that he really should ask himself until he can come up with the answer. “What is her motive?” my wife and I often phrase this as what is the pay off for this person doing whatever they are doing. Understanding the personal price this has cost you in family and friends your dad really should ask this. either you are some type of masochist and just love the havoc this has brought on you or, you are a child of God sensitive to His spirit and loving Him and justice even more than your own blood family. Seems Jesus said that we must love Him and hate our family. We like to soften that with words like love less but really I think your an example of what Jesus meant, we have to choose Him over everyone and everything even if that means family, friends and institutions claiming to be the body of Christ. I commend you for your obedience in this matter and pray that your family will see the truth and ask your forgiveness before it is too late. Do not grow weary in doing good.
@ elastigirl:
The best way to understand my comment is to read the link that Amy posted just after mine. Amy’s link explains a lot and is very helpful. The parallels to Driscoll are eerie, right down to the personal damage done to so many like Amy.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Yes.
elastigirl wrote:
Gramp3 and I have been through some experiences which are similar to Amy’s though not in Dallas, which we love. Family conflict due to wolves, blind loyalty of people we trusted to individuals or institutions, shunning, false accusations, etc., and not all in the SBC. We are familiar with North Dallas and the SBC environment there and the time period during which this took place. Some of the names in the D Magazine article are familiar ones to me. But for each of those names, we have similar stories in other places. Human nature is not affected by denomination or geography or doctrine or polity.
It makes sense to me how this has happened, but the whole thing is tragic and revolting and sad and infuriating and frustrating. My take is not a new one. We must stop idolizing Any Human Being who is not Jesus the Christ. We must stop seeking our own reflection in another human and rather find our identity in Christ whom we should imitate and who demands our first loyalty.
Gram3 wrote:
Here’s Wikipeda on the other Criswell:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Amazing_Criswell
Quite a character.
(He’s on YouTube, too; just enter “Criswell Predicts” as a search string.)
The idea that you can’t be a cult and a member of a SBC Church is laughable.
Look, some of the biggest ” cliques ” I know are FBC (99%of the time a SBC Church in Texas) of XYZ township. Espcially in a small town. Your entire business, the possibility of your promotion at the school district all involves membership there. Get outside the church and you’ll be shunned, your business will suffer, you may have to leave town and start over….
Amy:
I am so glad that you spoke up about Langworthy. I am not connected to any of these people or this church, but the idea that a church would protect someone like Langworthy and not only fail to pursue justice for harmed children, but also expose other children to future harm for the failure to report is something that I just cannot understand.
I am shocked to read that your father was the deacon who worked to protect Langworthy from the beginning.
It is my suspicion that your dad’s reaction goes way beyond simply protecting Prestonwood and Graham. There is something deeper here, I fear. I am not sure what it is. It may be that your brothers were harmed, and he doesn’t want that to come out. It may be even worse than that.
Regardless, I appreciate what you have done. You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers. I am also praying for your dad and mom. I don’t think that I have ever witnessed anything so awful when it comes to family relations.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Ummm, I’m going to be very careful saying this, but as Crocodile Dundee would say, “that’s not a knife…”
Anonymous wrote:
I agree with you as well. I wonder if perhaps he was harmed as a child and has never dealt with it.
K.D. wrote:
I agree with you. Cults can spin off from any group.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Criswell has some demons as well. I read this book by Joel Gregory who was supposed to be the first pastor after Criswell. A real eye opener.
http://www.amazon.com/Too-Great-Temptation-Seductive-Americas/dp/1565301412/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1426015815&sr=8-1&keywords=too+great+a+temptation
Mitch Bryant wrote:
Welcome to TWW. Thank you for this great comment.
Amy Smith wrote:
Prestonwood sure has had their share of sex scandals.
@ Eric S:
I am glad you are going to do so. I can speak from experience. Sometimes a bust blogger has a hard time keeping up with all the comments, emails ,etc. i always appreciate the readers who call things to our attention.
Amy Smith wrote:
I don’t love to do this and I know you don’t. There are many days I would love to pretend everything was just fine in the church and that there are no victims of child sex abuse, arrogant pastors who cannot let a person leave their church in peace or poorly treated victims of domestic violence.
It would be wonderful to post you tube videos of pug dogs playing dress up. But, there is pain in the world and some of us are called to speak about it and care for those who hurt. I wish Jack Graham would be a pastor who cared about the abused.
Ken wrote:
For me, I simply said I believe. From that moment on, the Holy Spirit became part of my life. I read the Bible with understanding.
When Jesus called his disciples, he said “Come follow me.” They left their nets and followed him. They had no idea what they were doing. In fact, they had no idea that the road would lead to the Cross.
Sure, their initial steps were simplistic as were mine. But God enters our simplistic lives and complicates our live quite thorougly with his Spirit.
I would be cautious. i know those who came to the faith through the rigorous teaching of doctrinally orthodox churches who have fallen away as well.
God calls us through many different ways- some, like me through Star Trek and having little understanding except that I believed and others who can parse the Nicene Creed within an hour of their conversion.
@ Gram3:
This is so true! (I lived in N. Dallas for a short time)
@ Ken:
One of the biggest mistakes people make is sizing a church up by its doctrinal statement. Especially….megas. They need a celebrity to exist.
I strongly suspect and fear that the more the culture and the fundamentalist wing of the church part ways, the more of this kind of thing – scandals, cover-ups, shunning – we are going to see. Those remaining on the inside will probably double-down on the “righteous remnant” model, and will ruthlessly do whatever it takes to preserve that, even if in external appearances only.
lydia wrote:
That was also how a LOT of abusive churches got in under the radar of all those Christianese Cult Watch groups. While the Cult Watchers were parsing their doctrine or theology letter-by-letter and pronouncing it Clean, the abusive behavior towards their people continued without letup.
Haitch wrote:
“THIS…” (schweng as it clears scabbard) “…is a NOIF!”
numo wrote:
At which point, why would anyone (except High School Alpha Males & Females) want to be associated with the North Dallas Mega/GCB scene? Only exception I can see are those who (like Stephanie Meyers) never left High School or never wanted to leave (“I Wish I Could Be High School Top Dog FOREVER!”)
lydia wrote:
I truly regret that Dr. Criswell’s tenure became the mega template. His ministry in some ways reflected the changes in SBC culture and changes in the broader culture, and he had a wide and good influence in many ways, though his retirement process was totally mismanaged, for which he and the people have responsibility. I’m glad I never was tempted with that pulpit! Prestonwood was a little church once upon a time in a land faraway…
@ Eeyore:
I think that is correct. The more those of fundamentalist leanings separate from the larger culture and the more isolated they become the more defensive they will probably become. Makes sense actually. And the more defensive they become the more of a threat even the least bit of difference of opinion will be seen as a threat. And the more they will rally the forces to protect their own. Sad situation.
Beakerj wrote:
That was one of my favorite parts.
@ Gram3:
Back sometime around the early 90’s, my mom came home from an SBC annual convention aghast that they were actually selling miniature Criswell busts!
Did you ever read Joel Gregory’s book, Too Great a Temptation? That book helped me understood his mark on the SBC. I was not familiar with him growing up at all. He was not really a part of the SBTS crowd back then.
Every time someone mentions him, I think of him sitting in a tub eating a big bowl of oranges. Even Criswell was trying to get rid of Patterson way back then! Patterson has always been one step ahead of the ax and only escapes because he knows where all the bodies are buried. :o) The SBC has been nothing but drama since the 80’s, it seems.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
And the other reason? Seminaries were teaching that cults were errant in doctrine. they did not teach the sociological aspect of cults. That has been a huge paradigm shift.
. . . and speaking of Southern Baptists, this National Public Radio (NPR) story just aired and posted:
http://www.npr.org/2015/03/10/388948950/southern-baptist-leaders-highlight-benefits-of-youthful-matrimony
@ dee:
Most mega’s do you just don’t hear about them.
K.D. wrote:
this can be true in even larger cities where the local celebs/CEO’s all attend the megas
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
@ Haitch:
Out of the heart, the mouth speaks. So much for victims.
appaling
@ Lydia:
Yuck. But, in fairness, I’ve been inside the gift shops near St. Peter’s at the Vatican. Idoltry is universal. The whole FBC Dallas thing was just awful, and I’m glad we were not there. Idolatry lives in our hearts, and the wisest thing would be to not create conditions which promote it.
BJU has responded to the GRACE report…
http://www.bju.edu/grace/
@ DebWilli:
I wonder if it has occured to any of these Evangelical denoms that the reason the divorce rate IS so high among them IS because of the “get married young” mantra?? đ Sometimes it seems their heads are screwed on sideways.
ISTM That the pastor in tbe article is only concerned about young men’s sex drives being satisfied. Guess we know the motivation now . . .
DebWilli wrote:
I think it is ok for people to marry young, but this not for everyone. Some great Christians never married, including a Southern Baptist named Lottie Moon. In the past, I don’t believe this would have been a topic given doctrinal importance. Is this related to teachings coming out of SBTS?
@ Gram3:
You do know that christian groups that have statues do not worship the statues, and in the west we do not consider pictures the same way apparently that the orthodox consider icons. We can talk about this some time, but the reasons pro and con are interesting. Like the rejection of stained glass windows in churches (the ones with images) and the rejection of pictures in children’s bibles for example. It gets complicated.
@ Nancy:
Yes. This is a very complicated topic, and practices, even within the same denomination, are NOT necessarily universal. Some things are more “folk religion” and tolerated rather than promoted by a given church.
@ Amy Smith: Sorry about your parents, and sorry I termed the writer of the mega document as a possible sociopath. People do crazy things like write poisonous letters sometimes, and it is difficult to understand, and even more difficult to understand when the writer could be family. I will definitely be praying for your parents and for your children and husband in all of this. As I was reading further along the comments I realized this is potentially a very complicated situation, and your family may have been more impacted by Langworthy than your parents will admit. I will be praying for healing in your family.
@ Beakerj:
that’s a terrific comment.
@ numo:
I am thinking that you would know a lot about this. I know very little, but I would be interested in this maybe over on the OD page.
@ Nancy:
I was just pointing out that images are not specific to one group, in this case Baptists with Criswell (or nowadays more likely Calvin!) and Paul VI with the Roman Catholics. I wouldn’t want either, but other folks see things differently. When I say idolatry I’m being generic. No statues or images are required.
@ Gram3:
Did you hear about the stained glass windows of CR leaders at SWBTS?
lydia wrote:
They look like poorly drawn comic book characters in my opinion, and it is idolatry to the conservative resurgence leaders in my opinion. Some who would probably rolling over in their graves. I liked the joke on fbc jax watchdog where they put the doggie photoshopped over the icon of a megachurch pastor Rick Warren.
@ Mark:
I only speak for myself but busts of preachers and stained glass tributes to the likes of Paige & Dorothy Patterson seem very UNBaptist to me. Things have changed!
And I agree…the pics I saw of them looked like cartoon drawings. The eyeglasses in stained Glass did not help!
lydia wrote:
I have read about that. “Very unBaptist” is about the most charitable thing that can be said. The liturgical churches use Biblical figures in stained glass for (as I understand it) pedagogical purposes, so not even in the same universe.
Mark wrote:
Weasel words. They apologized to victims who FELT that they were not treated well. They state that Jim Berg’s writings have been reviewed and have been found to be scriptural. And they will provide Biblical counseling to victims. Sighhh
Nancy wrote:
Until they’re The Dwarfs in the filthy stable, sealed off in the middle of Aslan’s Land.
“THE DWARFS ARE FOR THE DWARFS! WE WON’T BE TAKEN IN!”
And because they Won’t Be Taken In, they can never be taken out.
Mark wrote:
Reason #738 why I ran screaming from the SBC years ago. I was 37 when I walked down the aisle for the *very first time*. Didn’t plan it that way, but God knew what he was doing by keeping me waiting. I couldn’t be happier.
Meanwhile, my sister married her high-school sweetie at age 21 and they’re still going strong 20+ years later. Two very different stories but two happy marriages.
There is no one-size-fits-all answer to the ideal age for marriage, and I wish the SBC would do like Paul did regarding marriage: Give guidelines but leave the final decision up to the individual Christian’s conscience. A “sinful side” to waiting for marriage? Please. Just own up to being a horndog and ask for the Spiritual fruit of self-control.
Doug wrote:
I agree, it’s an utterly appalling and horrific and sickening situation. And the victims are very much front and centre with me, considering that they were executed with what looked not much bigger than a penknife. The new scimitar of choice with ISIS is a penknife. I mock this. They seem so powerful and unchecked in every other respect. But no amount of their slick media can overcome my derision at Jihadi John.
Gram3 wrote:
I’ve heard of America, SBC (Southport Brewing Company), W A Criswell, Texas and Dallas. I didn’t know about North Dallas, though its existence is a reasonable assumption. I’m using the word assumption here in a non-religious sense. But I am grateful for any insights you can give me. đ
Actually, the whole mega-church scene is foreign to me, the largest churches in the UK would be a bit over a thousand members, and they are quite rare. The tradition is to split churches once they start getting beyond a certain size – where it starts to get impossible for everyone to recognise everyone else in a sea of faces. The danger is over a certain size it all gets a bit impersonal and correspondingly institutionalised.
I think that is possibly what has happened here. Dad has become loyal to an institution at the expense of personal relationships, in this case family. Ain’t worth it.
Nancy wrote:
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I was reminded of this little nugget from Lewis:
“We want the Church to be small, not only that fewer men may know the Enemy, but also that those who do may acquire the uneasy intensity and the defensive self-righteousness of a secret society or a clique.”
— “The Screwtape Letters”
In fact, rereading it now, I think a lot in that chapter resembles Prestonwood.
Gram3 wrote:
Some baptist churches have stained glass biblical imagery in the windows. An extended family person recently donated a chuck for just such a project at their baptist church.
But I certainly agree about the teaching aspect of imagery and also I think the teaching aspect of physical procedures and activities. I have a theory about some of this, but since it is off topic I am putting it on the OD page.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Nowhere do we corrupt so well as at the very foot of the altar!
Nya Ha Ha, My Dear Wormwood…
Haitch wrote:
Jihadi John’s father lives in England. I understand he’s been hiding from the media after the news broke. He released only one statement I’m aware of; the gist of it was “He is no longer my son. He is a MONSTER.”
Which clicked on the old Anglo-Saxon word for “monster”: ORC.
Jihadi John has transformed himself from Man into Orc.
Ken wrote:
Yes, and that’s a good idea. Ironically, the article mentioned a man, Gene Getz, who wrote about that very thing of multiplying churches by intentional and planned division. Perennial churches, for the gardeners.
It’s about attitude. America is big and independent. Texas is Big and Pioneer Independent. Dallas is Bold, Brash, Big and Independent. North Dallas is all that with a big dose of Brag and Swag.
It’s almost something you have to see to understand. Dallas is a city which should not be located where it is located but exists there because…Oil. IIRC, it was an Army post and trading village on the way west from Ft. Smith, Arkansas. Anyway, North Dallas is the swanky area, though “Dallas” now extends approximately to Oklahoma (very slight exaggeration.) Oil is a high-risk business and is boom-and-bust. Dallas has had its booms and busts, too.
W.A. Criswell was an extremely influential preacher in Dallas, and there was/is a friendly rivalry between the Southern Baptists and the Dallas Seminary former Presbyterians who strayed off the Reformed reservation just a bit. So there’s that. Dr. Criswell was, IIRC, Billy Graham’s pastor of record. Dr. Criswell was Mr. Baptist. It was/is a humongous church that went through a difficult transition when Dr. Criswell retired-but-not-really. He became the church to a lot of people. And I believe he was the template for megaBaptist smorgasbord churches. His strengths included a strong bent toward evangelism and Biblical literacy. His weaknesses were the same ones we all share but don’t have to opportunity to exercise in the same way.
Prestonwood used to be a normal-sized church way out north beyond the LBJ freeway in the NW Prosperity Corridor of Dallas. As people moved up, they moved out north, and Prestonwood became bigger and richer. It was/is attractive to the youngish families who were drawn there by a good independent school district. It is huge now, and the pastor, Jack Graham, is influential as a personality well beyond Prestonwood. IIRC, he was/is on the “independent” compensation committee of one or more of our Usual Suspects, and I think he is also connected to James MacDonald, but I may be mistaken about that.
Hope that gives you a bit of the picture. I love Dallas, but maybe that’s because I have Texas pioneer blood. đ
@ Gram3:
I am glad you explained that. I knew about Criswell but I had never heard of Prestonwood.
My Mom was from TX, but she was from southeast texas where her father worked on the oil fields. I just say this lest people think that Dallas style texas is the entire story.
Texas has disproportionately influenced the rest of the nation in education with certain school text book publishers writing texts for texas and california standards because of their purchasing power. Now that some of our school systems can no longer afford text books I guess things have changed.
And ‘used to was’ that texas basically owned the SBC. Never mind nashville and richmond the influence came out of texas, with the exception of a little school in louisville now. If all that has changed some of you folks let me know.
@ Nancy:
One thing that has been too overlooked, IMO, is that the mississippi river is as much of a cultural divide as is the ohio river.
@ Gram3:
I read somewhere that during the Criswell retirement troubles even old Zig Ziglar left FBC for Prestonwood. Ouch.
Another interesting tidbit that has been a slight problem for the comps in the SBC is that Mrs Criswell had a huge SS class of BOTH genders she taught and was on the radio! A woman teacher of men!!! It was explained to me by some SBC comp pastors that is was ok because she was “under Dr. Criswell’s authority” the whole time even though he was not in the room. :o)
Gram3 wrote:
Thank you very much! đ
I can return the favour if you like: you could fit the whole of Great Britain into Texas just over three times.
There are also a few thousand Texas German speakers left: a dying dialect from a previously largish population. Wunderbar.
Criswell is another preacher who published a study bible. I’m not sure I’m that keen on them, but this may be a reaction to John MacArthur who justified his use of the 2011 NIV on the grounds that those who use this dodgy version would be ‘getting the truth’ in the form of his study notes. Not exactly a very modest claim! In fact, to be honest, I cringed as I heard him say this.
Nancy wrote:
My Texas pioneers came from families which originated in Kentucky (not sure if they were from TN or NC or VA before that) then moved crossed below the Falls of the Ohio to Indiana and then on to Illinois when land became available for settlement. From there they moved to Texas. That was Indian country at the time, and when the men left to fight in the Civil War, the women had to defend the place, because of course the U.S. Cavalry wasn’t interested in defending Rebels from Indians during the War. Interesting times, and the Pioneer Woman was a real thing. That, IMO, is the reason that women’s suffrage came first out West. They were Baptists, but that was before Baptists from Kentucky were so concerned about certain things.
@ Gram3:
Apologies for typos. They crossed over the Ohio below the Falls.
Ken wrote:
There used to be Oktoberfests in the Hill Country around Austin/San Antonio. Maybe there still are. I wonder if that’s where Lone Star Beer came from? If you listen to old Texas country music, you might catch glimpses of German folk music, including yodeling of a sort.
What is dodgy about the NIV?
Gram3 wrote:
We’d have to ask John MacArthur. Me thinks it has more to do with wanting to pump his namesake bible đ
Gram3 wrote:
We have been through that. But as I grow more mellow with age I will just say that, like the issue of pictures and icons and such, it helps some and hinders others.
Gram3 wrote:
Big subject, but I think MacArthur’s main concern was gender-neutral language being used. I think regardless of your views on this the custom of the source language should be retained in the target, and the argument should be over how it is understood. At the same time, you cannot ignore changes in target language use either.
I have read a critique of the NIV, which whilst appreciating its good qualities, its modern English and readability, did raise concerns about the tendency to miss words out that occassionally weakens it for study purposes. It is sometimes interpretive, for example atoning sacrifice instead of propitiation or some similar construction that gets the meaning across comes to mind.
My stock reply to those who worry too much about which version to use is that pretty well every Christian doctrine is clear enough, and the will of God is revealed for us sufficiently for us to do it, and we have no excuse because of the version we use or the manuscript tradition a translation was based on.
Gram3 wrote:
My little brother ( I say little he’s 50+) has recently taken a job in the Texas Hill Country as an Asst. DA. He had to call and tell me this story. It seems that when you dial 911 you press #1 for English, #2 for Spanish and #3 for German. They have a 911 operator on duty at all times that speaks German. True story.
Anonnie Mouse wrote:
AM, Exactly right and honestly the reaction seems to be the same on so many issues and is about to have the same effect on me as well. While the one size fits all approach is very prevalent in the SBC, I fear this is an epidemic in all of conservative evangelical circles.
As far as the article linked to where the young man basically said that teenage boys cant help themselves and really shouldn’t have to learn self control cause god gave them an “outlet” for their natural desires, I assume he was referring to women. I can not imagine a more degrading way of referring to the female sex, and this from someone who works for the denomination. Perhaps he needs to remember that when he speaks on record he speaks for the the denomination, or maybe he knows that and this idea represents the ideas of the convention. Can you imagine Jesus speaking this way about human sexuality, or Peter or Paul? It boggles my mind.
@ Anonnie Mouse & Bridget:
Yeah, I read that young marriage article. I just don’t understand why they seem determined to guilt trip millennials about their age at first marriage. Do they know that the average age at first marriage in the 1950s-60s was actually pretty freakishly low compared to most other decades since we have records?
http://www.census.gov/hhes/families/files/graphics/MS-2.pdf
Historically, age at first marriage tends to follow economic trends. If the economy is down (as it currently is), age at first marriage rises. When the economy is screaming (read: post-WWII boom), age at first marriage falls. Nothing sinful about any of it.
Seconding others too who pointed out that, statistically, marrying younger actually increases the risk of divorce. Also, the divorce rate has actually been falling for decades. Granted, some of that is because fewer people are getting married in the first place, but even there I’ve read reports (can’t find the link now, unfortunately) that indicate the risk of unmarried cohabiting couples splitting up decreases with age, and the amount of time they wait to start cohabiting (i.e., the couples at highest risk of splitting up are young people who move in together quickly).
So yeah, in general, waiting is better. And of course, since Dee (I think?) has said that she’s encountered pastors who think 14yos should be able to get married, the age of consent goes without saying.
@ Mitch:
It’s degrading to men as well, because it reduces them to animalistic sex werewolves who lose all volition and conscious control over their actions as soon as they see something pretty. It also implies they aren’t seeking any kind of emotional/relational component in a relationship, but are just out to get as much sex as possible.
Addendum @ Anonnie Mouse:
You could also read that young marriage article in a cynical way, as the SBC’s last-ditch effort to stop shrinking. “GET MARRIED AND GIVE US BABIES SO WE STOP LOSING MEMBERSHIP!”
Ken wrote:
There is, indeed, a lot of space on planet earth’s land-masses. Not only is Texas the second-largest of the United states, but if Alaska were divided in half, Texas would become the third largest.
@ Hester</a@ Hester:
thanks for pointing that out as well Hester. You really have to wonder exactly what this young man thinks of people. It sounds like men, Christian men are completely driven by impulse with no control on where or who they plug into, just looking for relief and to breed. Women of course have no sex drive or relationship needs of their own, they are merely receptacles waiting to be utilized by some male shaped plug. Never is there the mention of indwelling of the Holy Spirit to lead and guide Christs followers in all matters to include when and who to marry and in the mean time to give each believer the fruit of self-control. It all sounds much more secular and evolutionary. Men are just driven by their natural impulse to procreate and therefore perpetuate the human species. I do not get it!
Hester wrote:
I hate to say it but that is the first thing that comes to mind when I see alot of this type of talk coming from SBC entities. It is an “outbreed the heathen” mentality.
Mitch wrote:
I agree with you. But I come from a generation where lots of people married soon after high school and marriage right after college was expected. (Pinned by your junior year and engaged by your senior year and married the summer after graduation, then work for a year or two and then start having babies.) The majority of my nursing school class got married right after graduation, except for a few who got married before that and kept it a secret. So that really does not look terribly young to me, though it perhaps would not work today.
So, yes, everybody needs to learn to be in charge of their own sexuality. Everybody. At the same time both Jesus and Paul linked marriage with sex (gender/sex) with Jesus saying that God made people in the beginning male and female and ‘for this cause’ a man shouldâŚand when he talked about not marrying he talked about eunuchs (however understood.) That all sounds very sexual to me. Paul then got a bit more into the nitty gritty and basically linked marriage to sexual desire. Sometimes people go pretty far away from this basic idea in talking about marriage and leave out sex too much. I don’t see anything in scripture advising celibate marriages or anything insisting that people who are really not interested in sex must marry nevertheless. Or the idea that people should reject marriage if they are sexually motivated to marry.
So if we acknowledge that people are going to do something about their sexuality-good or bad, psychologically healthy or not, legal or not, normal or perverse–something, then marriage has to be added to the list of something people do about their sexuality. But, and I hesitate to say this but here I go. We had a urology prof in med school one time talking about male sexual health (to a class of 80 some guys and four girls) and he said to the guys to always emphasize to their patients that it was important for them to treat their wives like a treat and not like a treatment. I am thinking the urology professor was more concerned about the wives than the writer of that article.
I am so sick and tired of the secular world being nicer than the church leadership.
dee wrote:
Listen to dee’s advice Mr. Jordan, your family is the best thing you’ll ever have in this world, I almost found out the hard way. The Bible and religion are wonderful things, don’t get me wrong, but they are not the be all and end all in this life. Change course before it’s too late. Tack into the wind if you have to, while there’s still time.
Ken wrote:
And the Problem with the ESV is that they pick and choose where to place gender-neutral language, best serving a view to put men in authority and to keep women out.
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-problem-with-esv.html
But perhaps you don’t like the ESV. What translations do you like best.
@ Mitch:
I have heard of talk against oral contraception surfacing from the teachings at SBTS. I used to be against oc, but it was when I was enamoured of Calvinism and did not know a thing about Calvinism.
Hester wrote:
Bedroom Evangelism, “Outbreed the Infidel” sub-type.
Hester wrote:
In generational cohort dynamics, Strauss & Howe theorized that American cultural mores fluctuate on a four-generation, eighty-to-ninety-year cycle. One of the things that fluctuates is marriage age; the Fifties & Sixties were at the low point of that cycle and we should be just getting past the high end now.
Nancy wrote:
So true.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Maybe they are into that now, some of them, but there is no tradition of “the large baptist family.” And nobody has to explain that since your youngest is now two why are you not pregnant again? Nor being told, that I know of, that the ‘multiply’ of ‘fruitful and multiply’ means four children minimum since adam and eve were two and the lowest whole number that can be multiplied by two and result in a larger number than two is two, and two times two is four.
But I do think that family including children is seen by some people as a ministry in itself and perhaps “whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might.” And they may tend to see themselves as having to give an account of their stewardship and see this as part of it. And some seem to have taken up the rejection of artificial birth control, having got that idea from somewhere.
I would have said having gotten, but Nick had a fit about that so I said got–against my natural tendencies.
Gram3 wrote:
There are still a few Oktoberfests around these parts. My little town has a Deutchfest every year, and there is a tiny country Lutheran church not far away that still holds services in German. My dad’s family immigrated over from Germany in the 1800s. It’s still very much a part of the local culture in certain areas around Central Texas.
Hester wrote:
so apt, and funny, too!
Gram3 wrote:
Totally off topic,
I 35 has been under continuous construction north of dallas since before I graduated from high school in 1974.
@ Gram3:
OH yeah, Octoberfest is still a thing in the Hill Country.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
This is why we need Favorite buttons.
Gram3 wrote:
Will Texas secede from the Union for a second time?
I truly hope that there is either someone in Amy’s family or someone at Prestonwood who is a mature believer who would be willing to try to reconcile this relationship before it is too late. Surely someone knows at least some of the family well enough to at least try to find some common ground of understanding. That doesn’t mean that there needs to be agreement, but people need to help the family see the big picture and help them to put the other big issues into that perspective.
If anyone from Prestonwood or common friends or the family is reading here, please try to put aside the reputation of your church or your personal feelings and think about what Jesus would want all to do. Please. Don’t wait for someone else to take that first step. If you need to get someone to help to take that first step, then please do that, too.
Another problem implication of the young marriage article:
âŚcould be read as “you are not a ‘real adult’ unless and until you get married.” Or at least that you’re some kind of shiftless, messed up adult who has built their life on sand.
@ Hester:
Yes. I’m 100% with you on the stupidity of their marriage assertions, Hester. The more they talk about it the worse they come across. They should just close their mouths and take a long break.
Nancy wrote:
I’m a woman, over 40, never married, still a virgin.
I just want to be sure you’re not perpetuating a few common misunderstandings I see crop up among Christians about celibate adults such as myself. I can’t quite tell what you’re saying there.
I have a sex drive. I am sexual. I don’t have to be actually engaging in sex acts to be sex or to have a libido.
You said, “has to be added to the list of something people do about their sexuality”
Also, I cannot make a groom appear. Just because I’d like to be married and having sex with a spouse – I can’t “do” anything about it.
Churches do not have single men my age. The dating sites are filled with creeps, even the ones who say they are Christian on their profiles.
I cannot wave a magic wand and make a spouse appear. There’s nothing I can do about this, it’s just my situation.
Churches don’t want to help, that’s for sure. You ask if they will put on singles mixers, or ask Christian married buddies to set you up with singles, and you will get told to “be content in your singleness” or “Jesus is all you need” or “stop making marriage into an idol.”
Eric S wrote:
I am wondering if it’s the sexual predator’s family (parent etc) writing these letters about Amy. Too much emotional involvement, minimization of the predator’s criminal behavior, casting blame at Amy to avoid what? Loss, grief, failure, humiliation, hopelessness?
Time for professional help for this letter writer. Ditto a support group.
Has anyone from the discernment community contacted Prestonwood to let the elders (or whatever they call themselves) know one of their members is estranged from his immediate family, and to ask what they are going to do about this to try to resolve it?
This is nothing to do with who is right or wrong in the issue causing the division, it is bring about or try to bring about reconciliation despite this.
@ Hester:
That is a perfect example of one of the reasons I was so unhappy with the bapto-gelical approach to scripture. They love to preach long sermons from some verse while holding aloft some floppy bible that droops dramatically over the preacher’s hand, just before he puts it down on the lectern and pounds on it–drama there!–but they ignore and/or distort what the bible actually says about a lot of stuff. This is one area they ignore. Nowhere in the bible does it say people have to get married in order to do anything-except have sex and reproduce. And nowhere does it say that sex and reproduction are necessary to be adult or be righteous or be worthy of high respect. The boys in the pulpit made that up, just like some people made up the idea of the excessive value of lifelong consecrated celibacy. The bible does not go that far in either direction. But at least you have to respect the lifelong consecrated celibacy people because they do not claim that they got that priestly requirement solely from scripture. The bapto-gelicals are not quite that honest about where they got their ideas. The bapto-gelicals loudly proclaim allegiance to sola scripture, but that is not what they practice.
And here is one thing, I don’t think that the boys in the pulpit are ignorant of what they are doing. I think they know that they twist scripture to their own uses. And yes I think they remain accountable for doing so.
Daisy wrote:
That is quite the point, Daisy. I am glad you mentioned that. The scripture is such that there is no one-rule-fits-all in this area. They asked Jesus about marriage and then brought up some problems and he said, basically ‘yes, but.’ Paul thought he had to address the matter and clearly he said ‘yes, but.’ I have tried to say ‘yes, but.’
My quarrel is two fold. I thing the religionists in the pulpit distort scripture to the detriment of people. And I think that some trends of thinking in our society distort human psychosexual biology to the detriment of people.
So I come along and say there is a link between marriage and sex. A link. And I say that scripture allows for leeway in the area of marriage. It does. How is that a contentious topic? And if it is then there is something amiss in religion or society or both that this obvious reality sounds strange to modern ears.
@ Nancy: You have valid criticisms and I have been guilty of some of what you have described. I wish baptist evangelicals would more often honestly listen to their critics and not always for polemical apologetic purposes. Evangelical baptists fight a lot and sometimes over issues that are more cultural than biblical. Or are more theoretical, than what is actually in Scripture. It doesn’t say that people should marry at 15 or 20. The theorists state that we have un naturally extended adolescence by telling our children not to marry until they have completed their education, and that these children can’t practice self control. This isn’t in the Bible. It is theory. We have often made fun of the Church of Christ for having church splits over the issue of church kitchens, but we are guilty of the same nonsense. I must say in our defence we are human beings who mean well.
@ Daisy:
Mark wrote:
Well, yes, but I am more thinking that we are fallible human beings who intend to mean well but who are susceptible to deception. At least that describes me, so probably there are others in this same boat.
Eric S wrote:
@Eric,
Thanks for looking it up. Maybe you would also be willing to write those states’ Attorney General’s/Megan’s List/report a sex offender, and add a link here to that letter. If it is someone on a registry, it could be a parole violation and grounds for re-arrest.
Amy Smith wrote:
@Amy,
First, I want to say how very proud I am of you, Amy! I for one am proud to know you! I am proud of your stance for children crime victims! You are akin to a ‘Rosa Parks’ for children who are sexually abused in the Protestant, conservative evangelical church and their families.
According to the research, including from the largest insurance companies that insure churches, there is an epidemic of child sexual abuse in the conservative evangelical church that rivals that of the Catholic Church. The Catholics have been forced to deal with child safety due to 30-years of arrests, prosecutions, and lawsuits.
I have met many wonderful Christian parents who no longer go to any church because their children were sexually abused at church and those churches/pastors mishandled it and ordered that the parents and children be shunned! It was betrayal upon betrayal. At the darkest time in their lives, when they needed help and comfort, they were ordered to be shunned by their closest friends and church family. Horrific.
Obviously the letter writer, so many churches’ pastors/elders and congregations, doesn’t take the word of our Lord seriously: that it’s better that a millstone be tied around a person’s neck and they be drowned in the deepest sea than cause one of these little ones to stumble.
Ken wrote:
Since Amy is one of the parties involved here, I’m sure Prestonwood would give whoever called the Baptist version of “Go to h***.”
Hmmmm..what *is* the Baptist version of that phrase?
J Pow wrote:
That would be “Perhaps you need to re-examine your relationship with the Lord and take another look at your conversion experience to see if you are really saved.”
Mara wrote:
I’ve put an answer in the open discussion section.
Michaela wrote:
Michaela,
Do you have a reference or a link to details about this research?
Thank you.
raswhiting wrote:
Sorry, I’m at work; the links I bookmarked about this serious, felonious conduct in the conservative evangelical church are at home.
The sources that I researched were some of the following:
1. Rev. Billy Graham’s grandson Boz Tchividjian, a former child abuse prosecutor and the founder of G.R.A.C.E. (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian environment. Boz is a Christian, law school professor, and writer as well.
http://boz.religionnews.com/2014/01/09/startling-statistics/
2. Search “Church Mutual” and “sexual abuse in churches”. Church Mutual is the largest insurer of churches.
3. I found lots of psychological experts on pedophiles who wrote about child molesters preying in the church. (Anna Salter is one expert.)
4. I found lots of attorneys who sue churches or discuss legal liability for churches. Church Law & Tax is another good website. They report that child sexual abuse is the Number 1 reason that churches get sued.
To Amy:
I just wanted to send you an encouraging Gospel song, “Jesus Will Fix It” sung by Lee Williams and recorded at The Gospel Legends in Mississippi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6ZmC_HTlHI
So proud of you for protecting innocent children! Much love and many hugs to you! You and your husband, and beautiful family are awesome!!
To Beloved, Brave Amy:
Here is another encouraging for you: “Lord Help Me To Hold Out” sung by Spencer Taylor and Doug Williams at The Gospel Legends recording in Mississippi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTf8gTHme08
Ken wrote:
1. Prestonwood doesn’t give a darn. Prestonwood only cares about the name and image of Prestonwood, not people, well maybe celebrities and rich people who attend.
2. My parents moved away from Dallas over 4 years ago and they had stopped going to church at Prestonwood (or elsewhere as far as I know) a few years before they moved away.
@ Amy Smith:
I don’t get it, Amy. Why are your parents defending Prestonwood to (seems like) their death when they aren’t even part of the church and have moved away? It makes no sense. It especially makes no sense that they continue to shun you and your family since they are no longer part of Prestonwood. Well, shunning your own family never makes sense to me anyway. Praying for you and your family to be restored. The entire circumstance stinks.
Amy Smith wrote:
It is so hard for people to understand this!!! it seems like in order to be a good little Christian victim or one who helps victims you have to go through this horrid process that is the biggest waste of time on the planet and only gives the perps and their protectors more power over the situation.
I wish people could wrap their heads around what these churches like Prestonwood are really all about. It should be obvious by the cult of personaliy but that is the norm these days.
A quote from 2 Timothy 3 really strikes me. It is written about people who have a form of godliness, yet deny its power. It is like a big show but what people worship is other than God, so they deny God in a sense. If you inform the spectators they in their love of the show almost committing idolatry, they will strenuously deny it. This is how I perceive mega churches like Prestonwood. If something is wrong people deny it because they are so caught up in the show. Just a thought……
Bridget wrote:
This is interesting and something that I have thought about. The following is pure speculation about some possible reasons.
1. Either of Amy’s parents had something happen to them as a child and they have spent their lives covering it up because “you don’t talk about such things.”
2. My parents raised me to believe that you never make a big fuss in public about bad things that other people do. They would say “It is none of our business.” My dad has passed away and my mother is 86. Even now she doesn’t understand why I confront things like child sex abuse. She says it just “causes problems.” I think it was a generational thing.
True story: Growing up we knew a family whose father was rumored to “do bad things” to his three daughters. It was always discussed in whispers and no one ever did anything about it.the older daughter ran away and the other two had significant problems in their lives.
Recently I asked my mother why no one intervened. She said that people just didn’t *interfere* back in those days. She became agitated when I brought that up since i asked her why no one tried to help the daughters. She said things are different now.
Trust me. I am not happy about this and it is obvious that I am making up for lost time with this blog. I think our generation now speaks out publicly about abuses and that some of the older folks have trouble with this. No excuses though.
dee wrote:
I am 81, but originally from a different part of the country, so same generation but different location. That said, I think it was a generational thing but only sort of.
It was my experience that ‘minding one’s own business’ was considered to be both moral and good manners, and a lot of things were considered nobody’s business back then which are apt to be considered subject to public knowledge now. For instance school grades and does your daddy drink beer–private stuff.
Also I do think that there was a certain level of ignoring incest that was more accepted as just how things are than would be accepted now. That would be incest between father and adolescent daughters and between brothers and sisters. Not condoning it, just accepting that things happen. However, we received a lot of persuasion about “tell the nice policeman; the policeman is your friend” and “tell your teacher; she will know what to do” and that was applicable to a host of childhood problems including but not limited to abuse of all sorts. I do not remember hearing anybody say anything about ignoring anything to do with a young child. My friends and I were constantly warned about a host of dangers, some of them sexual, to the extent that it is a wonder any of us grew up even halfway sane.
But the fact that some girls had babies by their fathers or brothers, we knew that happened. The one case that I knew about as a child, we knew because social services investigated and people saw the car in the driveway and spread the word that there was a “problem” at that house. So somebody had told social services. The reaction, however was different. Some people would have been more apt to say “somebody needs to look into that situation” than to see it as a crime even though it was.
And there was social stratification such that people rather wrote off some of the behaviors of the lower strata of society as “how they do sometimes” as compared to “how we do.” For example if the banker were doing it, he would be considered a terrible person, but if the poorest tenant farmer were doing it people might be apt to write it off as due to low intelligence and just say “what a pity.”
Nancy wrote:
I was hoping that you might weigh in. My dad was from a Russian immigrant family and the family I spoke about were Italian immigrants. I grew up around kids whose parents were from all over-Russian, Polish, Greek, Italian, French,Portuguese, etc.I learned to cuss in a variety of languages! My dad’s practice was frequented by immigrant families because they knew he understood them.
Do you think that would have anything to do with values and views? All of the kids, myself included were spanked an children and our parents were sticklers about our educations-making us do our homework and expecting good grades so we could make it in America.
@ Nancy:
And people would opine as to how the poorest tenant farmer got his low intelligence in the first place with the thought that incest runs in families and inbreeding leads to low intelligence and it is a pity somebody can’t “fix that.” That of course was right in line with certain surgical eugenics procedures which were done and that got to be a real mess.
dee wrote:
It is bound to be a part of it, but I have no idea to what extent or in what areas. I think the good grades thing was pretty ubiquitous. Education used to be seen as the yellow brick road to everything but especially upward social mobility. My extended family one and all preached get your grades. As for spanking-I don’t know. My parents disagreed with each other about spanking, and they were from the same background as each other, which was been in america for a looooog time and intermarried with various and sorts during the process.
By the way, I cook a Polish cabbage dish called something or other and made of cabbage, onions and noodles–all of it cooked and then tossed with butter in a skillet. Awesomely good with lots of paprika.
Nancy wrote:
I hope my brain is still working as well as yours when or if I reach this particular milestone!
Responsibility for how present and past Prestonwood members, including Amy’s parents, are responding to Amy, should rest on Jack Graham and his team. If Mr. Graham honestly admitted error how he and his team handled the Langworthy affair and candidly discussed that child sex abuse is a problem in conservative evangelical churches so much of this complicated mess would be defused. He is an actor in all of this who needs to apologize. I also found it interesting how another mega church pastor Matte at First Baptist Church Houston has responsed to Amy. I understand Amy and her husband had to resign from teaching a Sunday school class at FBC Houston due to Amy’s vocal advocacy of victims of child sex abuse. My understanding is that it is ok for Amy and SNAP to bring up issues in the RCC, but not among conservative evangelicals, is the opinion Matte and his ilk. I think this denial of the sex abuse problem one symptom of the dark side of megachurch charismatic leaders. They deny there is this kind of problem, sweep it under the rug, and do even worse in covering up these problems that can’t be happening with in their perfect and ordered realms. Their denial of dirty laundry within their auspices, as rulers of their kingdoms, is making the entire problem worse for all involved. I am terming it kingdom because so many of these charismatic leaders are authoritarian, and some of their followers adulate them.
@ Mark:
In searching for news stories last fall on the Second Baptist Church Houston child sex abuse lawsuit, I came across a 1994 lawsuit against the First Baptist Church of Houston, our former church of almost 18 years. I was not previously aware of this lawsuit, Marshall vs. First Baptist Church of Houston:
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/tx-court-of-appeals/1215494.html
From my post in October 2014:
http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2014/10/last-week-lawsuit-was-filed-against-two.html?m=1
After the phone call from Doug, my husband met first just with Doug, and then a couple of weeks later with Doug and Gregg Matte. I wrote about this meeting here. They were joined in that meeting by Charles Poor, Minister of Counseling Emeritus & Staff Liaison to Deacons. Charles Poor is the same minister who is mentioned in the lawsuit Marshall v. First Baptist Church of Houston. The lawsuit states that in 1989 the child sexual assault victim “told Ministers Johnnie Deurwyn, Charles Poor, and Felix Wagner of the alleged sexual assault, and these individuals, likewise, failed to report the incident.”
The alleged perp, Stephen (Steve) Roddy, is the founder and current Houston Children’s Chorus director and on staff as a music minister in Houston at Chapelwood United Methodist Church. He is also on the advisory board for the High School for the Performing and Visual Arts in Houston. A HISD attorney, HSPVA, Chapelwood, and the Children’s Chorus are all aware of this lawsuit and the allegations of continual child sex abuse in the lawsuit. Roddy remains in all of these positions of influence.
@ Amy Smith: This seems an all to common theme in Baptist churches when pedophilia occurs and police are never notified. Who is advising the pastors to do this? It makes no sense that a reasonable person wouldn’t view this as a crime. Reece Marshall suffered multiple personality disorder precipitated by the post traumatic stress of this awful experience. I am uncertain the lawsuit was a waste though the legal ruling indicates it was. Whatever happened to victim Reece Marshall after the lawsuit? People such as Pastor Bisigno acted badly in this, but what about the victim(s) who got no justice, and the pedophile who is out there, able to do the same to other victims, like nothing ever happened? Sorry about your experience of doing the right thing and being vilified by the Baptist religious establishment. Baptists are all about the Great Commission and being evangelistic. If I were a person being visited by First Baptist houston or Prestonwood, I would probably ask the team members about these cases. How they are handling these issues has everything to do with their witness in the community. I am a traditional Baptist who was involved in visitation years ago. Maybe they don’t do visitation anymore.
@ Amy Smith: Looking at this case, is there a bill similar to this on dockets in Texas? My understanding is the Marshall case got hamstrung by statute of limitation. This is from Utah:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865623973/Bill-removing-statute-of-limitations-in-child-sexual-abuse-cases-passes-Legislature.html?pg=all&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
Children oftentimes can’t speak and don’t speak for themselves.
@ Mark:
Not that I know of yet, but I hope there will be soon. The First Baptist Houston case demonstrates how child sexual predators are protected and enabled. I fear Roddy has many more victims. I tagged him in tweets and linked the lawsuit and then he blocked me.
Nancy wrote:
And in line with the National Socialist German Worker’s Party, who took Eugenics Procedures about as far as possible.
Anonnie Mouse wrote:
It’s necessary to announce his claim to Calvin’s Iron Throne.
Boz, Deb, Dee, Massmind, let me tell you what this has done to the “righteous” reputation of my church, the RCC.
Local morning & afternoon drive-time radio humor:
* “You know why the Catholic Church is so dead-set against birth control? So they can have lots of altarboys for their priests to molest.”
* Appending “-pedophile” to every Church title: Father-pedophile, Monsignor-pedophile, Bishop-pedophile, Cardinal-pedophile…
* “They’re making John Paul II a saint. Patron Saint of Child Molesters.”
And a few years back I was published in a couple of Catholic-themed SF anthologies. The editor recounted one submission where the author attempted to give it “Catholic content” by having the main character’s backstory be “A priest molested me as a kid”. THAT’s what he thought “made it Catholic”.
And I have seen lots of online & fanzine cartoons on the subject, though I don’t have URLs to give.
Nancy wrote:
I don’t think they’re doing it with their hand…