MRS. RHONDA J. AUBERT vs THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH OF AUSTRALIA: A Case Study

I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. -Thomas A. Edison link

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=72127&picture=sydney-australia
Sydney, Australia

I asked Rhonda to write a post about her experience with the Presbyterian Church of Australia. This situation is in the hands of attorneys who gave Rhonda permission to post this explanation of her situation. Sometimes we think that abusive church practices, especially involving money or power, are primarily found in America. Others believe that having a church hierarchy via a denominational system will also prevent abuse. Here is one more post to disabuse our readers of such notions.

Humans are the same all over the world. Money and position corrupts. The story is a bit complex but I believe it gives us a bird's eye view into the church of another country. 

As an MBA student, I was forced to do case studies on decisions in businesses which led to success or failure. Within the Christian community, failures are hidden in order to protect the church's image. Besides being very bad theology, such secrecy prevent us from learning from our failures. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

For example, there is on church planting expert who participated in three failed church plants. This has been kept very hush hush. However, he is out on the circuit teaching others how to do church plants. I believe it would be far more valuable for him to be out there showing what he did wrong in the previous plants. Often times we learn far more from our failures than we do with our successes.

TWW believes that we are offering something that many seminaries and churches fear to discuss and that is failure. This story involves one woman's attempt to bring truthfulness into a bookkeeping situation and ends up in a mess.


‘But this is what you must do: Tell the truth to each other. Render verdicts in your courts that are just and that lead to peace’. Zechariah 8:16 (NLT) 

Just as way of introduction to those who are not familiar with the Presbyterian Church of Australia’s governance. It is probably very similar in other countries however in Australia we have state Churches and these Churches agreed to unite under the Basis of Union in 1901. Australia federated also in 1901 prior to that we were not a nation. 

The Presbyterian Church of Victoria, Victoria is the state I live in, together with each of the other states form the Presbyterian Church of Australia. 

The Presbyterian governance is a hierarchy of courts of appeal and each court is chaired by a moderator. The moderator is elected from among the ministers and elders for a fixed period of time. The courts are served by a clerk, who issues and receives communication for the court. 

The lowest court, the Session, consists of the minister, or ministers, and elders and has wide ranging responsibilities and power over the local Church. 

The next court of appeal is the Presbytery and is comprised of ministers, retired ministers, working within its borders and an elder commissioned from each Church within its borders. 

The State Assemblies are responsible for the life and the mission of the Church within the state. They are comprised of ministers and elders, as above, and some persons by virtue of their office. 

The General Assembly of Australia is the supreme court of the Presbyterian Church of Australia it consists of representative ministers and elders from each state. 

Each court is empowered in differing degrees to deal with matters of discipline, only the Supreme Court, the General Assembly of Australia, can pronounce on matters of doctrine. 

My story begins with a phone call. It was September 1996 and the call was from a lady who attended a local Presbyterian Church. She told me that the Church ladies were starting a craft group and she was wondering if I would like to attend. My sister and I both joined and I began attending the Church. 

The Baptist Church that I had been attending since my childhood was out of the area and I was shopping around for a new one closer to home. I felt a bit strange attending a different denomination however it did not take long before I settled in. 

The Church’s chapel was situated on a large property, approximately 10 acres. The manse, a house provided by the Church for the minister and his family, and an old camp dormitory occupied about 2 acres at the front of the property. The chapel and two other camp buildings, one of which was used for the Sunday school and a morning tea room, occupied another couple of acres. A small Presbyterian Church school abutted the property and during the week they would use the chapel as an assembly hall. The remainder of the property was mainly untouched bush land. 

The congregation was only small with approximately thirty people attending but gradually over time the number increased. The Church had one minister, known as the teaching elder, and two ruling elders. One ruling elder was also the Session clerk. In Victoria only men can become elders. 

A Baptist friend of mine, who knew that I was now attending a Presbyterian Church, asked me why I was attending such a conservative Church. I told him I did not see lot of difference to the Baptist Church and I was enjoying the little fellowship. I was not looking at the wider Presbyterian Church. 

In 2001 I became involved in the Children’s Ministry. Most Sunday mornings I would tell a short story and I would try and make it fun and informative for both the children and adults. 

By 2002 the congregation had grown to about seventy people with quite a thriving Sunday school. There was a real sense of community but this was about to change. 

One Sunday morning the Minister and the Elder who was also the Session clerk announced to the congregation that the other Elder was being excommunicated. We were told that he belonged to a group called ‘The Fellowship’ and its members were being excommunicated by the Presbyterian Church of Australia. I did not know anything about this group. What I did know was that this person was a stickler for Church rules and the Minister and the other Elder had not approved of his very conservative views. What I witnessed that day was very upsetting. I had worshipped with him for nearly six years and felt he did not deserve to be humiliated in front of the whole congregation. The atmosphere of the Church seemed to change after that and a number of families drifted away. 

A year or so later the Christian school purchased approximately 4 acres of the property so they could build more classrooms. This included the land that the chapel and the Sunday school building were situated on. It was quite a gloomy time for the congregation. We did not have enough money to build a new chapel on what was remaining and we did not know how long the school would allow us to keep the existing chapel on their land. 

At the beginning of May 2004 it was brought to the congregation’s attention that the Minister and his family wanted to purchase their own home. The manse was their preferred option because this had been their home for nearly eighteen years. We were told that this would require the approval of the Presbyterian Church of Victoria Trusts Corporation. These Trusts Corporations are set up to hold the property of Churches as most Churches are Unincorporated Associations which means that they do not have the legal capacity to own property. 

Just when we had resigned ourselves to the fact that we would never be able to afford our own facilities the Elder made an amazing announcement. It was the Sunday after the 2005 meeting of the Presbyterian Church of Victoria’s General Assembly. He told us that the Assembly had gifted the manse property to the Church along with $60,000 (AUD) to relocate and re-establish the chapel on to the adjoining vacant land. 

What I noticed, regarding the manse property, was that as soon as it was gifted to the congregation the Minister’s focal point was to try and buy it. 

The school building program was continuous and we knew that we would have to move the chapel or the school would have it demolished. However, there were on-going issues with the local council which meant the Church could not get a building permit. The congregation decided to have the chapel moved to an area adjacent to the vacant land but it was still on land owned by the school. This cost the Church nearly $30,000. 

The size of the congregation continued to dwindle and by 2010 it was back down to about thirty. The Church’s Board of Management negotiated with the council over the building permits but to no avail. It seemed that the Church’s vision to build a new chapel on the vacant land would never be realised. 

For years people at the Church had been asking me to go on the Board of Management because I am a bookkeeper. I finally relented and I was voted on at the AGM in September 2010. 

I have always believed that correct procedure is of the utmost importance. So I set about investigating what was written in The Code and Regulations of the Presbyterian Church of Victoria (The Code) about the Board of Management (the Board). When I attended my first meeting in October I was pretty savvy to what should have been happening and to who should have been there. 

‘The Code’ stated that ‘The board of management of a congregation consists of its minister or ministers, those elders who are both members of the congregation and of its Session, together with managers to a number determined by the congregation but not less than three’. 

At this meeting the Elder was not present. At the first opportunity to speak I mentioned this fact. I could tell by the Minister’s reaction that he was extremely displeased with what I had said. He told me that he was the representative of Session on the Board. The look on his face when he said this actually frightened me. I believe I had just glimpsed the ‘real’ person not the one I thought I knew. 

As a new member of the Board I felt that it was important I knew the history of some of the items that were being discussed at the meetings. 

I asked the secretary of the Board if I could borrow the records of past Board meetings. I was shocked to see that the minutes were kept in a lever arch file. There were many hand-written jottings on the minutes and they had not been signed by the chairman. 

I read through all the minutes and documentation in the folder and photocopied some of the pages for later perusal. As a bookkeeper I did not like what I was seeing. However, because I was a Board member at the time I cannot divulge what had been discussed at the Board meetings. But what I can say is that there was one motion that had been agreed to by the Board I believed could have had very serious ramifications for the Church if it had become public knowledge. I phoned the secretary and asked her if I could meet with her. I told her of my concerns and both of us felt that it was important the Elder also knew. 

I tried to explain what I had discovered to him over the phone but it was too difficult. So I asked if I could meet with him. His attitude towards me was very intimidating. He said I could have half an hour of his time. 

I told him that I was very concerned by what was written in this motion and I believed the correct course of action would be for the Board to rescind it. I presumed a positive response from him but that is not what I received. He saw what I wanted to do as bogging down on meeting protocols. He did not even want the issue raised at the next Board meeting. Nevertheless, I decided to bring it up at the December meeting. I explained to the Board members my concerns with what had been agreed on by them; despite this, not one person supported me. The next day I received an email from the Elder. He said it was fantastic that it had gone so smoothly at the meeting and it was great that we all had come to the same understanding of the issues. 

Strange, from where I was sitting it did not seem ‘smooth’ at all. I do not know why he included me in the ‘we all have come to the same understanding of the issues’. My understanding of the issues was that the motion should have been rescinded. 

The first Board meeting for 2011 was held on the 16th February. I was horrified by a proposal that the Minister had put to the meeting. I made my objections known but as before no-one supported me. 

I felt so strongly that this was not a Godly course of action. The next day, which was my 59th birthday; I sent a group email to the Board telling them that I had real concerns about what the Minister was proposing to do because I believed it could be so divisive. Sadly I did not receive a single reply. A week later I sent another email to make sure they were all aware that I did not support the intended action. I was hoping they would agree at least, to put it back on the table for further discussion. From the lack of response I gathered no-one else had an issue with it. 

The following Saturday I mustered up every bit of courage I had and with a heavy heart I went to see the Minister at the manse. I told him I believed he had lost his first vision for the Church and his driving vision now was to buy the manse property at all cost. At this he became very angry. He told me his intention was to offer it back to the Church when they (him and his family) no longer required it. 

I left him to ponder the Scripture verse ‘Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable’ Heb. 4:13 (NLT). Speaking to the Minister this way was one of the hardest things I have ever done. 

When I said goodbye to him that day I knew that I would be saying goodbye to a Church that I had grown to love over a fifteen year period. In spite of deep personal pain at the thought of losing most of my friends, I could not in all conscience continue to worship there. So much of what I had thought was ‘good’ about the Church was a lie. 

Three weeks later on a Tuesday afternoon the Elder phoned me at home. I was out at the time. He phoned four or five times the next day, starting at 9.30 am. I really did not want to speak to him so I did not return his calls. I remember too well my last phone conversation with him where he had made me feel intimidated. 

The following Friday the Elder sent me an email. He said that had been trying to contact me. My response to this was that I did not want to speak to him at this time and I would contact him when I was ready to do so. How sad to think when I actually needed to talk to him he was only willing to give me half an hour of his time. 

Three weeks later I received an email from the Minister. He wanted to meet with me in a café. I would not have been meeting with only him but also the Elder. He said that he was very keen to resolve the issue. I am not sure what he meant by ‘the issue’. 

I received another email from him five days later. This one had a real urgency attached to it. He said ‘we must meet and resolve the issue’. A few days later he phoned and my son answered. I told my son I would not take the call. This was so upsetting for both of us. I see this as such inappropriate conduct from someone in his position. 

I was so overwhelmed by the phone calls and emails from the Church leadership I began to feel frightened. It was not long after this that I went to the local police station. After showing the policeman a copy of the emails and explaining to him about the phone calls, he advised me to print out a ‘Restraining Order’ in case they continued. 

Even though I had left the Church I could not ignore what was going on there. I sat down and carefully re-examined the documentation that I had photocopied. 

Not wanting to go into too much detail but my main concerns included: 

  • Misrepresentation of the actual financial position of the Church; 
  • The misapplication of Church funds; 
  • The Board’s poor financial record keeping and reporting; 
  • The Board’s attempt to borrow money despite the Church’s financial insecurity and the congregation voting that no money was to be borrowed; and 
  • The Minister’s persistence to purchase the manse, despite the presence of a serious conflict of interest. 

I began to wonder if this and other things that I discovered in the Board’s documentation, which I cannot disclose, was the reason the Minister and the Elder were so desperate to speak to me. 

I now knew I had a responsibility to pass on all the information I had to someone else in the Presbyterian Church of Australia. 

I wanted to present the documentation from the Church in such a way that the person reading it would instantly see what I was seeing. So I spent many hours cross-referencing and writing notes on the photocopied minutes highlighting what I considered to be important. I bound them in a two ring folder and being very trusting I did not even keep a copy for myself. In an envelope I placed a copy of the correspondence I had received from the Minister and Elder. 

The Director of the Ministry Development Committee (MDC) in the Presbyterian Church of Victoria, who I knew because he had attended the Church for a while, was helping me in the background. He phoned me at home and told me to address the envelope and the folder to the Moderator of the Presbytery of Maroondah. The Presbytery of Maroondah (the Presbytery) has jurisdiction over the local Church I had attended. He said that if I could take them to the Presbyterian Church of Victoria’s Head Office in Melbourne, the Clerk of the General Assembly of Victoria (Victorian Assembly) would arrange to have them sent on. I did not want too many people knowing who I was so I chose not to provide personal contact details. I walked away believing that I had left the information in capable hands. 

The following Monday my Director friend called me and said that I needed to contact the Clerk. Not knowing what he wanted I had butterflies in my stomach as I phoned him. He told me that I would have to make a statement in writing that the information had originated from me, and fax it to him before he would accept it. His attitude towards me was so abrupt it left me physically shaken. I struggled to even type the statement and I needed my husband’s help to fax it. 

Two weeks later I received an email from the Moderator of the Presbytery. He said, ‘can I just first say that we are truly sorry for the difficulties you have been going through. We do care. Please know that you have been, and shall continue to be, in our prayers’. When I read this it made me feel a little less apprehensive about the repercussions of what I had done. 

However, that feeling did not last long. The Moderator then said that they had received the book and the envelope but before agreeing to meet with me I had to make it clear what I would be seeking from such a meeting and what it was that I wanted to discuss with them. He then asked me if I wanted the documentation returned. 

I was dumbfounded. These were the minutes from one of the Presbytery’s Churches and I had to make it clear what I wanted to discuss with them. I thought that they would go out of their way to help me but that was not to be. I had an inkling then that some of the people in the Presbyterian Church of Victoria were not all that impressed with what I had done. It seemed to me that I had to do everything by the book whereas the leadership at the local Church could do whatever they liked. 

I let the Moderator know I wanted to meet with the Presbytery and that I needed the information back. He said, ‘after we hear from you in writing we can take things from there. Please know that it wouldn’t be me only meeting with you if/when that happens but 2 or 3 of us from the presbytery. No need to fear though’. 

I did not waste any time getting the information back into my hot little hand. As soon as I had retrieved the information and arrived home I went straight to the photocopier and made three copies of every piece of paper. 

Even though three months had passed since I had left the Church, I felt as if I was back to square one. Knowing that I was very upset with what had happened, the Director of the MDC phoned me again. For over an hour, in between tears from me, we discussed what I could do to take the matter further. He suggested that someone from the Church might be able to help me write the report for Presbytery. The names he mentioned were all Board members. I knew from past experiences they would not help me. Then he suggested his wife. Even though she still attends the Church I jumped at that suggestion as I knew she is very knowledgeable in the working of the Presbyterian Church. 

We arranged to meet in her home where we thoroughly discussed each minute that I was concerned about. This worked very well. If we were not sure if what was written in the minutes was the correct course of action, we would ask her husband. The report was six pages in length and took many painstaking hours to put together. For supporting evidence we included a copy of all the minutes and any other correspondence that we felt was relevant. 

In the letter I attached to the report I wrote: ‘During the time that I was a member of the Board of Management at [the Church], I was shocked to find many situations that seemed to be handled inappropriately. While I admittedly have had little to do with the legal proceedings of the Presbyterian Church, my many years as a professional bookkeeper have convinced me that some, if not all, of the items below warrant further investigations’. 

I asked Presbytery to provide me with a written response. I wanted them to explain to me why each situation was or was not handled correctly. What they planned to do to make certain that these were remedied as far as possible and the steps that they would put in place to ensure that situations like this could not happen again. I asked Presbytery to prayerfully consider my questions and the documented evidence and to allow me to meet with them so that I could further discuss my finding and give them the opportunity to ask for clarification if required. 

At one of my visits to her home, her husband, the Director the MDC, spoke to me very apologetically. He said ‘they told me that I cannot help you any more’. This came completely out of the blue. He did not say who ‘they’ were but I had my suspicions. When the report was finished I contacted the Moderator of the Presbytery to arrange a drop off point. He said that I needed to get one copy to him at Donvale Presbyterian Church office and another one to the Clerk of the Presbytery so it could be presented at their June meeting. When the Director’s wife and I arrived at the church I was so overcome with emotion I collapsed on the floor of the  foyer. The Moderator knelt beside me and prayed that I would not lose my faith because of what I had been through. 

To be continued…………… 

Lydia's Corner: Exodus 39:1-40:38 Mark 1:1-28 Psalm 35:1-16 Proverbs 9:11-12

Comments

MRS. RHONDA J. AUBERT vs THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH OF AUSTRALIA: A Case Study — 91 Comments

  1. Off topic: Dee, thought about you when I heard of Leonard Nimoy’s death. You are correct, he lived long and prospered.

  2. Thanks Dee for posting this. Tina a lever arch file is a large 2 ring binder that has a clamping mechanism to keep the papers tight in the folder.

  3. @ Tina:

    The moment I became a Christian, I was watching Star Trek. On the bridge was Kirk, Bones and Spock. I always smile when I think of them. For me, it was the beginning of a new life. I can do the Vulcan hand blessing but I cannot raise just one eyebrow.

    My top 3 favorite characters: Spock, Picard and Data.

  4. Why not just buy her book “Prised Open” from Amazon or any other reputable bookseller? Or even just the foreword which goes something like this…

    “What I faced, I believe was an impassible river of discrimination, cronyism, secrecy and cover-up within the Presbyterian Church of Australia. This is my story of what I had to go through so my ‘high heels’ would leave an impression on their ‘Men Only Territory’.”

  5. As for the PC Australia, it seems that it, like a lot of churches, attract leaders looking for either celebrity or financial security without really doing a lot of work for it. A pastor can accumulate a lot with very little knowledge or wisdom–just a lot of manipulating.

  6. rhondajeannie wrote:

    Thanks Dee for posting this. Tina a lever arch file is a large 2 ring binder that has a clamping mechanism to keep the papers tight in the folder.

    Okay. Why was it “shocking” to see these papers in a lever arch file? Was it a way that they were not supposed to be filed? (Sorry if I’m sounding clueless or stupid; I’m not quite understanding the significance of the way the papers were stored.)

  7. dee wrote:

    @ Tina:
    The moment I became a Christian, I was watching Star Trek. On the bridge was Kirk, Bones and Spock. I always smile when I think of them. For me, it was the beginning of a new life. I can do the Vulcan hand blessing but I cannot raise just one eyebrow.
    My top 3 favorite characters: Spock, Picard and Data.

    Dee, do you remember the name of the episode you were watching? (I’m not a Trekkie but I’m married to one!)

  8. Dee and others I could tell you stories about the scams I saw pulled at churches I mean the mob does not have the chutzpah some of these folks do and they have such nice smiles while they are shoving the dull knife in your back and ripping out your spine.

  9. dee wrote:

    I can do the Vulcan hand blessing but I cannot raise just one eyebrow.

    I can. both of them, independently. It is great fun at parties. It is my one talent.

  10. I wonder if now Ms. Aubert feels she put all that together just to help them with their own defense!

    We live and learn. The last place we should take what we know about the church is to the church! They are experts at shooting messengers.

  11. Tina, maybe I shouldn’t have put a full-stop after ‘lever arch file. Having hand-written jottings on the minutes and not being signed by the chairman actually went against the PCV’s own rules and regulations.

  12. Lydia wrote:

    I wonder if now Ms. Aubert feels she put all that together just to help them with their own defense!

    Lydia, I now believe I was called to that little Presbyterian Church to expose what goes on in the wider Church. Part 2 will shed light on why I believe I was ‘called’.

  13. Gavin White wrote:

    This is my story of what I had to go through so my ‘high heels’ would leave an impression on their ‘Men Only Territory’.”

    What better way to make an impression than on an open Forum. The Presbyterian Church of Australia has very close ties to the CBMW and I believe they treated me like a submissive wife. This may work in their homes however I was a board member with equal standing with the men, so I thought……….

  14. Lydia wrote:

    I can. both of them, independently. It is great fun at parties. It is my one talent.

    Live long and prosper, Lydia!

    Dee, raising one eyebrow is simply a matter of practice and perseverance – sort of like having the first comment on a fresh TWW post ;=)

  15. rhondajeannie wrote:

    Tina, maybe I shouldn’t have put a full-stop after ‘lever arch file. Having hand-written jottings on the minutes and not being signed by the chairman actually went against the PCV’s own rules and regulations.

    Ahhh, now I get the significance.

    Your story is proof that spiritual abuse doesn’t just happen in the USA.

  16. dee wrote:

    @ Tina:
    The moment I became a Christian, I was watching Star Trek. On the bridge was Kirk, Bones and Spock. I always smile when I think of them. For me, it was the beginning of a new life. I can do the Vulcan hand blessing but I cannot raise just one eyebrow.
    My top 3 favorite characters: Spock, Picard and Data.

    Reruns of Star Trek TOS got me through some very difficult times as a teenager. It helped me maintain some faith in the goodness of humanity. This may sound like hyperbole, but I think it may have saved my life more than once. Bones was my favorite, but he would be incomplete without Spock. It’s a sad day. Oh, and I can raise one eyebrow and do the salute. Not bragging or anything 🙂

  17. @ Tina:
    A lever arch file is a large file for storing papers and other hard-copy documents that are hole-punched in two holes on the LHS. There is a he metal D-shaped loop inside the the spine of the file, which you open by pressing on af lever that is kind of spring loaded. This open up the D-shaped loop and you put the papers in and then press the lever again to close the loop.

    In Australia, most lever arch files have a spine about 2 inches wide, so they can hold a lot of documents.

  18. Tina wrote:

    rhondajeannie wrote:
    Thanks Dee for posting this. Tina a lever arch file is a large 2 ring binder that has a clamping mechanism to keep the papers tight in the folder.
    Okay. Why was it “shocking” to see these papers in a lever arch file? Was it a way that they were not supposed to be filed? (Sorry if I’m sounding clueless or stupid; I’m not quite understanding the significance of the way the papers were stored.)

    I think this was mentioned because it indicates that there were MANY papers in the file.

  19. Tina wrote:

    rhondajeannie wrote:
    Your story is proof that spiritual abuse doesn’t just happen in the USA.

    Sorry, but hasn’t this been obvious for years already? I mean, Hillsong, for starters. You’ve touched a sore spot with me here. Please Americans, please don’t act like you are the only folks on the planet! I know not all Americans act like that, but I notice it quite often from some of them.

    And bear in mind that people comment on blogs from all round the world and we non-Americans don’t always reveal what country we come from. So many commenters here at TWW may be from other countries and be recounting their abuse experiences but may simply not be mentioning what country they come from. You can’t assume that all the stuff you read in these comments threads is written by Americans.

  20. Barbara Roberts wrote:

    So many commenters here at TWW may be from other countries and be recounting their abuse experiences but may simply not be mentioning what country they come from.

    Too true! I’m another Aussie who has experienced spiritual abuse. It was in a small, independent, charismatic-style church. I’ve come to realise that is doesn’t seem to matter what the setting – the system of ‘doing’ church, particularly in the western world, is pretty broken.

  21. Dee, I’ve read your blog regularly for the past 2 or 3 years – although I’ve seldom commented – and I’ve always been deeply appreciative of your testimony of conversion during Star Trek. There’s just something so gloriously ‘right’ about that!

    Btw, I once preached a sermon entitled “What the church can learn from Star Trek”. One lady came up afterwards and said to me, “At least you didn’t preach about Doctor Who!”

  22. Barbara Roberts wrote:

    You can’t assume that all the stuff you read in these comments threads is written by Americans.

    As an American, it is very difficult to get away from American presuppositions and experiences and points of view. So, I especially appreciate it when non-Americans help us out. Sheesh, even when we travel abroad we can’t get away from American movies and books and music and fast food. The gondola at Zermatt played country-western songs the last time we were there. Not an alpenhorn in sight. No, seriously. Some of us try hard to compensate by being obnoxiously inquisitive with anyone who is not American.

  23. rhondajeannie wrote:

    The Presbyterian Church of Australia has very close ties to the CBMW and I believe they treated me like a submissive wife.

    Oy. Oy. Oy. I knew the Sydney Anglicans had been body-snatched by CBMW…

  24. Gram3: “body-snatched by CBMW”! I’m going to be laughing over that for a long time! And probably any time I hear the phrases “biblical manhood” and “biblical womanhood”. If it’s during a church service, the laughing will sound like a coughing/choking fit and be hastily accompanied by a trip to the water fountain.

  25. And then there’s the debt incurred by the Bathurst Anglicans. Lots of hows and whys there.

    @rhondajeannie, I take it that all the PCA (Presbyterian Church of Australia) Moderators throughout the nation are men only?

    Also, a query – is belief in the 166,000 only being saved thing (I don’t know the right terminology sorry) a Presbyterian Church doctrine?

  26. Gram3 wrote:

    As an American, it is very difficult to get away from American presuppositions and experiences and points of view.

    I think this is one of the reasons why I love TWW, I do feel I have come to more of an understanding as to how some Americans ‘think’, and a respect also. I can only speak for myself, as an Australian, but I do feel we can approach things and express ourselves very differently. It’s more than our differences in linguistics and humour. We can have very different worldviews (Australian ‘exceptionalism’ not being one of them) etc. I’ll leave any further depth on this subject to the anthropologists…I have to say, when I first started reading TWW, it was like trying to learn a foreign language, or a technical manual from an unfamiliar field. And it was the acronyms that caused most difficulty! Now I read (and understand) the terms like CBMW and SGM etc with ease !

  27. Oh, and last point, and I have to say this, I’m a firm “Ms”. There will be no “Mrs” in front of my name. heh. Being a good non-conformist, anti-establishment type, usually when filling in a form I try to leave the title section blank. My silent protest only gets me along for about 20 seconds or so after I’ve handed the form back. Last time, in the doctor’s crowded waiting room, it was yelled from reception desk across to me, “Haitch, are you Miss, Mrs or Ms?”. I yelled back, “tick whatever box you like”. I get really annoyed that men aren’t asked that question. Usually I tick the “other” box and fill in something obscure like “Abbottess” or something. I know, I know, I’m fighting a losing battle here. But I keep trying…

  28. Haitch wrote:

    Also, a query – is belief in the 166,000 only being saved thing (I don’t know the right terminology sorry) a Presbyterian Church doctrine?

    Haitch, no because their would be more than 166,000 Presbyterian men since the denomination came into being. However one other thing I struggle with is that in Victoria they have 21 year old male elders. I think that is an oxymoron 21 and elder.

  29. Haitch wrote:

    I take it that all the PCA (Presbyterian Church of Australia) Moderators throughout the nation are men only?

    Haitch yes they certainly are including the Moderator General of the Presbyterian Church of Australia. They do have a few female ruling elders in the State of New South Wales but many of the churches are unhappy with this.

  30. @rhondajeannie – thanks for your reply. I look forward (I don’t think that’s the right turn of phrase though) to part 2…

  31. Living Liminal wrote:

    At least you didn’t preach about Doctor Who!”

    As you quickly hid the notes from your sermon prep for the next week…:)

    My fascination with the stars began as a kid. I used to have viewing parties in my back year with my cheap little telescope. To this day, the pictures from Hubble amaze me. I think God used that love to draw me to Him. I have this great hope that someday, in the new heavens and earth, I will be able to see all the wonders that I know are out there.

    If you like science fiction, there is a trilogy “The Lamb Among the Stars” which is one of my favorite books ever.
    http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Night-Lamb-Among-Stars/dp/1414313276/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425136523&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=the+lamb+amongst+the+stars+trilogy

    And any pastor who preaches about Star Trek is my kind of pastor. I would love to hear that sermon.

  32. Tree wrote:

    “body-snatched by CBMW”! I’m going to be laughing over that for a long time!

    That’s what the True Believers seem like to me. Happy it makes you laugh!

  33. Barbara Roberts wrote:

    You can’t assume that all the stuff you read in these comments threads is written by Americans.

    I am sorry if you got that impression from me. I am referring to a conversation that is going on in some circles on the blogosphere which discusses the American bias that we bring to the faith. Here is a book that has been well received and heavily discussed.

    http://www.amazon.com/Our-Great-Big-American-God-ebook/dp/B00FPQCSOU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425136850&sr=8-1&keywords=our+american+god

    In any country or culture, we tend to see things through our own lens. Through this blog, I am hoping to to show that, no matter the country or culture, we all share some difficult sins which involve money and power.

  34. @ Living Liminal:
    PS-When I heard about Nimoy’s death, I was instantly transported back to that evening, sitting in my dad’s old leather reclining chair, watching Star Trek and being transported into the kingdom. It was if it happened yesterday.

  35. Haitch wrote:

    Also, a query – is belief in the 166,000 only being saved thing (

    I have never heard of this. I would love to learn more about it.

  36. Haitch wrote:

    Usually I tick the “other” box and fill in something obscure like “Abbottess” or something. I know, I know, I’m fighting a losing battle here. But I keep trying…

    For a generous love offering (if you put love in front of offering , it makes if godly) E Church would happily appoint you an Abbottess and send you a lovely certificate (framing-add $100 to the love offering.)

  37. rhondajeannie wrote:

    they have 21 year old male elders. I

    I always get a chuckle out of the sweet faced Mormon kids who show up at my door and introduce themselves as Elder Fred or whatever. I usually bring them hot chocolate and cookies to the door since they cannot come in unless my husband is present.

  38. lemonaidfizz wrote:

    Reruns of Star Trek TOS got me through some very difficult times as a teenager. It helped me maintain some faith in the goodness of humanity.

    Remember what turned Star Trek from TV space opera into a Phenomenon and Movement: TIMING.

    Star Trek premiered in 1966, four years after the Cuban Missile Crisis, a time of deep Pessimism. I remember Absolute Proof that humanity would be extinct before the year 2000 from the Inevitable Global Thermonuclear War, Inevitable Global Thermonuclear War, Inevitable Global Thermonuclear War. It’s coming, it’s 1000% Certain, It’s All Over But The Screaming, Have a Nice Day.

    Even Christians jumped on the Inevitable Global Thermonuclear War bandwagon with Hal Lindsay — Don’t Be Left Behind(TM)!!!!

    And in the midst of all this Grinning Nihilism and Oh-so-Fashionable Pessimism, here comes Star Trek, with a bright future where we DIDN’T blow ourselves up in Inevitable Global Thermonuclear War; instead we walk the stars, Boldly Going Where No Man Has Gone Before!

  39. dee wrote:

    I always get a chuckle out of the sweet faced Mormon kids who show up at my door and introduce themselves as Elder Fred or whatever.

    “Hello! My Name is Elder Young!”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdVUCpu5yhw

    Actually, a Mormon gamer I knew in my Old School D&D days put it this way: “Joseph Smith had this THING for Gygaxian Level Names.”

  40. Gram3 wrote:

    Tree wrote:

    “body-snatched by CBMW”! I’m going to be laughing over that for a long time!

    That’s what the True Believers seem like to me. Happy it makes you laugh!

    Including the Point-and-Howl when the Pod People detect a Heathen among them.

  41. Haitch wrote:

    Also, a query – is belief in the 166,000 only being saved thing (I don’t know the right terminology sorry) a Presbyterian Church doctrine?

    Don’t know about Presbyterians, but belief in only 144,000 being saved is definitely Jehovah’s Witnesses doctrine.

  42. Gram3 wrote:

    Sheesh, even when we travel abroad we can’t get away from American movies and books and music and fast food. The gondola at Zermatt played country-western songs the last time we were there.

    “We have both kinds of music here — Country AND Western!”
    — The Blues Brothers

  43. Living Liminal wrote:
    Too true! I’m another Aussie who has experienced spiritual abuse. It was in a small, independent, charismatic-style church. I’ve come to realise that is doesn’t seem to matter what the setting – the system of ‘doing’ church, particularly in the western world, is pretty broken.

    I agree.

    I’m sorry to say that situations like this happen regularly in pretty much all churches around the world. Leaders (clergy and laity alike) often take the approach that they can do whatever they want and ignore anything to the contrary, be it common decency, church rules, or even the law of the land.

    Anyone who stands up to this can expect to be sidelined or worse. Driscoll’s firing of elders who “sinned by questioning” is but one example.

  44. Well, Dee…
    When can we expect the second part of the story? I am looking forward to reading….what has to be an ending that won’t turn out well?
    🙁

  45. @ K.D.:
    She is running the second part past the lawyers. i will get it up as soon as I get it. Hopefully early next week.

  46. lemonaidfizz wrote:

    Reruns of Star Trek TOS got me through some very difficult times as a teenager. It helped me maintain some faith in the goodness of humanity.

    Isn’t it total depravity, not goodness?
    😉

  47. dee wrote:

    I think God used that love to draw me to Him.

    I’m always fascinated by what God will use to reach out and touch us. It’s as if he knows what makes us tick…!

    PS Thanks for the book recommendation 🙂

  48. dee wrote:

    When I heard about Nimoy’s death, I was instantly transported back to that evening, sitting in my dad’s old leather reclining chair, watching Star Trek and being transported into the kingdom.

    What a wonderful memory! Worth treasuring 🙂

  49. Ian wrote:

    Anyone who stands up to this can expect to be sidelined or worse. Driscoll’s firing of elders who “sinned by questioning” is but one example.

    Ian, that’s so true 🙁 And it was really weird seeing all the similarities between the MH situation and mine. But I’ve come to realise that there seems to be a text-book you can follow when abuse is at play – the same elements are present no matter what the setting.

  50. @ Gus:
    LOL it is interesting–I grew up in a Calvinist IFB, so Star Trek presented to me a completely new perspective on humanity. Looking back, it probably gave me the courage to question the church and eventually become a None and Done. Yet Dee writes about Star Trek leading her to God. Compared to Dee, I brought very different life experiences to my viewing of Star Trek, and came away with a very different kind of transformation. I’m not sure what to make of that, but I find it very curious.

  51. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Don’t know about Presbyterians, but belief in only 144,000 being saved is definitely Jehovah’s Witnesses doctrine.

    Ah, you’re spot on. Predestination is the word I was looking for, a tenet of Presbyterian belief.
    @Rhonda, I don’t want to muddy the waters, but was there some overlap with your situation and that of “The Fellowship”? (google ‘Presbyterian cult Melbourne’). One mainstream local media site here:
    http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/breaking-the-fellowship-a-bittersweet-crusade/2006/03/03/1141191854028.html

  52. Haitch wrote:

    was there some overlap with your situation and that of “The Fellowship

    Haitch as you would have noticed I did mention ‘the Fellowship’ towards the beginning of the post. I am in two minds about this as to what was the real issue behind it. In my honest opinion it is Freemasonry verses a group that is anti-Freemasonry. But what is interesting in Morag Zwartz’s book ‘Fractured Families’ on page 90 she writes ‘……to avoid the unprecedented act of a minister being removed under the code…………..’ I see this as a real concern, the word ‘unprecedented’ sets off huge alarm bells.

  53. lemonaidfizz wrote:

    Yet Dee writes about Star Trek leading her to God. Compared to Dee, I brought very different life experiences to my viewing of Star Trek, and came away with a very different kind of transformation. I’m not sure what to make of that, but I find it very curious.

    I think it had something to so with this massive universe with infinite mysteries and such beauty. As a kid, I used to wonder what would happen if I could just get into a spaceship and keep going straight. Would I bump into nothing out there past the edges? The pictures of what we can see are breathtaking. I wonder how many more things are there that we can’t see or even imagine.

    I was seeking for meaning in the greater creation. It came down to either nature/universe is self perpetuating or there was a designer who had infinite creativity. At that one point, i became convinced that the creator of all of that wonder loved me-little me on an insignificant planet in an insignificant galaxy.

    I did not have much understanding of Christianity when I finally believed. Much of it came later. But, the start of my faith began with the wonder of the universe and that wonder lingers in me to this day. That is why I do not believe we can put God into a box to make Him comfortable for us. He loves us but He also is bigger and more creative than we can imagine.

  54. rhondajeannie wrote:

    did mention ‘the Fellowship’ towards the beginning of the post.

    I just read the article on The Fellowship. I have put it into a draft. One of these days I would love to do a post on it. A cult hiding within a church!! Wow!

  55. @ dee:
    Thank you for sharing that, Dee. It was beautiful. I too have a sense of awe and wonder when I think about how vast and incomprehensible the universe is. And I understand why some people feel the need to put god in different boxes when confronted with the stunning complexity of nature–it can provide some security and a sense of predictability in what may otherwise feel like a very chaotic and random existence.

    When I fell in love with Star Trek, I was looking for something greater than the toxic version of the Church I grew up in, which had always been my entire universe. I think if the Church had more people in it who could see god as a god of love more than anything else, the Church would be a more welcome and peaceful place for folks.

  56. Living Liminal wrote:

    But I’ve come to realise that there seems to be a text-book you can follow when abuse is at play – the same elements are present no matter what the setting.

    Reminds me of an OT Star Trek episode title (Dee might recognize it):
    “Patterns of Force”.

  57. dee wrote:

    I just read the article on The Fellowship. I have put it into a draft. One of these days I would love to do a post on it. A cult hiding within a church!! Wow!

    Dee after reading my part 2 you may find that this was a case of the ‘pot calling the kettle black’.

  58. dee wrote:

    @ Living Liminal:
    PS-When I heard about Nimoy’s death, I was instantly transported back to that evening, sitting in my dad’s old leather reclining chair, watching Star Trek and being transported into the kingdom. It was if it happened yesterday.

    I had nearly the same experience at the Broadway production, “Jesus Christ Superstar.” Amazing how God can reach us through a wide variety of experiences.

  59. dee wrote:

    A cult hiding within a church!! Wow!

    That’s basically what Gothardism was in the 1970-80’s, IMO. The Gothardites were the spiritual ones, in their estimation. Also, the Doug Wilson cult, FKA the Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches, also reminds me of this. The Federal Vision denies it is a “thing” yet takes over in churches by introducing its ideas as though they are the true truth. They also consider themselves the elites.

  60. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Reminds me of an OT Star Trek episode title (Dee might recognize it):
    “Patterns of Force”.

    I remember that one 🙂 I felt the need to educate my boys properly so we’ve been working our way through the Trek universe on Saturday nights for a while now. (Started with TOS, of course!)

  61. dee wrote:

    I think it had something to so with this massive universe with infinite mysteries and such beauty. As a kid, I used to wonder what would happen if I could just get into a spaceship and keep going straight. Would I bump into nothing out there past the edges? The pictures of what we can see are breathtaking. I wonder how many more things are there that we can’t see or even imagine.

    Which you completely LOSE in a 6019-year-old, ending tomorrow, Earth-and-some-lights-in-the-sky Punyverse.

  62. @ Gavin White:
    Gavin, what is your issue here? How we would we even know she’d written a book without blog posts like this? How would I search for anything I had no knowledge of? I wish you’d just say what you mean…something like ‘this is free publicity for a book about something I don’t agree with, morons, why waste your time?’ A lot of people here can read between the lines & would rather take it straight on the chin than you insinuating stuff.

  63. Tina wrote:

    Dee, do you remember the name of the episode you were watching? (I’m not a Trekkie but I’m married to one!)

    I do not. It’s kind of funny. For many years, I didn’t talk much about my conversion except to say that I grew up in household that didn’t give much attention to religion. The older I got, I realized how addicted I am to science fiction. I realized that it all began that night. Science fiction, in some respects, pays homage to my conversion.

    One other thing happened soon after. An old boyfriend gave me the first book in the Out of the Silent Planet trilogy by CS Lewis. I remember being so excited to know that Christians wrote science fiction. I loved the trilogy, btw.

  64. @ Beakerj:

    I was interested in her story and felt it was worth writing about. The chances of many people picking up her book outside of Australia is slim. I If you notice, she did not mention her book in either of her two posts.In fact, I now wish I had mentioned her book and linked to it. Maybe I will do that now.

  65. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Which you completely LOSE in a 6019-year-old, ending tomorrow, Earth-and-some-lights-in-the-sky Punyverse.

    I totally agree with you. The Ancient of Days is eternal and far beyond our full understanding. Did you see the photos celebrating Hubble’s 25th year?? They are mind boggling. How I wish I could go out there and see this stuff.

    http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/feb/28/hubble-at-25-the-cosmos-at-its-most-breathtaking-in-pictures

  66. @ Ken:
    Ken wrote:

    May I ask therefore what your theology of the rapture is? …

    Of course. I believe in some sort of post final tribulation gathering leading into the final judgement. At this point, I believe that their will be a reunion of body and soul for all, including nonbelievers.

    I am also amillenial, I believe we are living in the millennial kingdom now. Jesus is on His throne and death has been defeated. The peace that we have is the peace that Christ gave to us through the gift of His Holy Spirit-“Peace I leave with you.’

    20 years ago I was an ardent pre-mil, p pre-trib rapture sort of gal. However, deep down inside, whenever I studied the subject, which I did with two different Bible studies as well as listening to a lot of sermons on the matter and reading a bunch of books, I would be uncomfortable because no matter how many times I read the Bible, I felt like I was forcing the pre mil, pre trib reading onto the verse.

    Howsomever, this is only my current thinking. I can assure you of this. When it all comes down, I will happily throw away any of my assumptions that do not jibe with the reality that unfolds.

  67. dee wrote:

    The Ancient of Days is eternal and far beyond our full understanding.

    The psalmist in 19.1 “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.” had a much better insight into the heavens than our current YEC colleagues. And the psalmist didn’t have the Hubble observatory, spacecraft and big Earth based observatories.

  68. oldJohnJ wrote:

    nd the psalmist didn’t have the Hubble observatory, spacecraft and big Earth based observatories.

    I always love to see you commenting here. My husband mentioned you the other night. He really loved your posts.

    Let me bring you back to your Duke days. We went to Duke Chapel for their Christmas eve service. It was absolutely wonderful. I also talked my way into seeing NT Wright speak at the new Center for Christianity and Scholarship at Duke.

    http://www.christianityandscholarship.org

    Aren’t we blessed to see those pictures from Hubble?! My son and I had a great discussion when I asked him what he would do if he could jump on a space craft and explore the universe if it meant he could never come home. He said he would do it and then looked at me and said i would probably beat him to the space craft door. We both had a good laugh.

  69. Beakerj wrote:

    Gavin, what is your issue here?

    IMO, Gavin does not want us to talk about anything he doesn’t think we should be talking about. Or something. Passive-agressive instead of direct.

  70. oldJohnJ wrote:

    And the psalmist didn’t have the Hubble observatory, spacecraft and big Earth based observatories.

    The Hubble pictures drive me to worship. I can’t help it.

    Please, please comment more.

  71. Gavin White wrote:

    Why not just buy her book “Prised Open” from Amazon or any other reputable bookseller? Or even just the foreword which goes something like this

    Thank you Gavin for the publicity. I don’t think I even mentioned my book in this blog post.

  72. dee wrote:

    Howsomever, this is only my current thinking. I can assure you of this. When it all comes down, I will happily throw away any of my assumptions that do not jibe with the reality that unfolds.

    Last century, Steve Brown said he was Amill but grab him on the way up if he’s wrong! Sensible and practical position.

    I don’t have the answer about eschatology, but I totally nailed The Dress color. Not black, white, blue, or gold. Smoky blue and bronze with a sheen, possibly silk, though probably poly.

    The person asked me whether it was blue and black or white and gold. I said neither because I’m picky and rebellious and believe my lyin’ eyes. 😉