Is Teen Challenge an Abusive Rehab Program?

"The religious exemption protects the programs from inspections by the state’s department of children and families, which means students can be imprisoned or shackled and, unlike with licensed youth programs, can be denied contact with their parents and prevented from accessing child-abuse hotlines."

TIME Magazine

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=2562&picture=face-the-monster

Face the Monster

Are you familiar with an addiction recovery program called Teen Challenge?  During our almost six years of blogging, we have had a number of commenters mention this organization.  We received one such comment today (see below). 

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/02/02/anonymous-gives-witness-to-the-abuses-at-the-ifbs-new-bethany-childrens-home/comment-page-1/#comment-178706Screen Shot

We decided that it's high time for us to educate ourselves and hopefully our readers about this rehabilitation program that now spans the globe.  The Global Teen Challenge website provides a brief history of the program, which originated fifty-five years ago.  David Wilkerson, a Christian evangelist who co-authored The Cross and the Switchblade, founded Teen Challenge in New York City.  He would go on to launch Times Square Church in 1987.  Tragically, Wilkerson died in a car crash in 2011 at the age of 79.

According to the organization's history, "Teen Challenge has grown to over 1060 centers in 82 countries".   Here is a brief description:

Global Teen Challenge is a service agency that exists to serve the more than 1000 Teen Challenge programs in more than 90 countries of the world. It is our desire to provide the best and latest tools available in helping individuals with life controlling addictions. According to the United Nations, more than 200 million people worldwide struggle with drug abuse. Drug users are getting younger and their use is becoming more frequent. Alcohol and drug addictions are plaguing our nations, our cities and invading our homes. We are committed to doing everything we can to reach people around the globe with life controlling problems.

Interestingly, Global Teen Challenge has just one favorable testimony on its website; yet there are positive testimonies and promotional videos posted on YouTube.  Of course, an organization like Teen Challenge is going to promote itself with glowing endorsements.  However, there is considerable information on the internet describing negative aspects of the program, which we want to bring to your attention. 

In November 2012 TIME and the Tampa Bay Times reported on a yearlong investigation of Florida youth programs, which revealed extensive child abuse.  The article states:

In Florida, such unlicensed religious homes can operate outside state child-protection laws thanks to an exemption that protects religious practices. Some are structured more like military camps, while other boarding-school programs emphasize the “emotional growth” aspect of their mission, claiming to help teens with everything from defiance to depression to drug problems. Hundreds of students register at these schools each year, enrolled by desperate parents eager to pay $20,000 or more in tuition to put their children back on the “right” path…

To highlight the child abuse that was occurring, the reporter called attention to what happened to Samson Lehman at a Teen Challenge affiliated program called Gateway Christian Military Academy.  Here are the horrific details:

They shaved him bald that first morning in 2008, put him in an orange jumpsuit and made him exercise past dark. Through the night, as he slept on the floor, they forced him awake for more. The sun had not yet risen over the Christian military home when Samson Lehman collapsed for the sixth time. Still, he said, they made him run.

The screaming, the endless exercise, it was all in the name of God, a necessary step at the Gateway Christian Military Academy on the path to righteousness. So when Samson vomited, they threw him a rag. When his urine turned red, they said that was normal. By Day 3, the 15-year-old was on the verge of death, his dehydrated organs shutting down.

When Lehman was finally taken to the emergency room, his condition was so grave that he had to be air-lifted to a higher-level facility.  He had to undergo months of dialysis in order to recover.  Officials at Gateway Christian Military Academy tried to shift the blame on pre-existing 'mineral deficiencies', but Florida's child welfare agency didn't buy it.  They concluded that what occurred was "verified child neglect".

According to the article, Teen Challenge has a "history of abusive practices carried out in the name of religion".  Here is another eye-opening excerpt:

For decades, Teen Challenge has run afoul of states with stricter oversight of youth facilities for some of its practices.

In the mid-’90s, Teen Challenge tangled with state regulators in Texas when officials demanded that all programs that involve locking up youth meet certain training, safety and education standards for counselors. Citing religious freedom, Teen Challenge resisted — and then-governor George W. Bush stepped in to save the program by exempting all religious youth facilities from oversight.

Reports of abuse at the exempted facilities began surfacing, including one in which a girl was found bound in duct tape, but without the licensing rules, the state couldn’t act. When Texas officials rescinded the exemption in 2001, programs simply moved to other states, including Florida, where religion was still used as a buffer to protect such abuses.

Further alarming is the following excerpt from the medicalwhistleblower website:

Teen Challenge currently operates five drug treatment centers in Texas – none of which have a state license, but only two of which have formally registered their status as a faith-based facility exempt from state licensing. As exempt faith-based drug treatment centers, Teen Challenge facilities are not required to have licensed chemical dependency counselors, conduct staff training or criminal background checks, protect client confidentiality rights, adhere to state health and safety standards, or report abuse, neglect, emergencies and medication errors. Even prior to seeking an exemption from state licensing, a 1995 state inspection revealed that Teen Challenge was not compliant with numerous state health, safety and quality of care standards. Teen Challenge USA has been reported to be abusive and has even hired staff even though they were already registered child sex offenders.

There is a direct recruitment of ex-convicts as ministers and also as staff for Teen Challenge centers. Teen Challenge New England boosts that over 90-98% of their staff are former “graduates” of the Teen Challenge drug addiction program. Teen Challenge New England was at the time directly recruiting from within the prisons – including an in house program at Dartmouth House of Correction. Also the court system court still orders persons into Teen Challenge in lieu of jail time.

To provide some idea of what others have endured, here are some testimonies that were shared on the DailyKos website:

"I was at Teen Challenge in Pensacola, Florida for two months, and it was very much like a cult. A lot of brainwashing there. It made my problems worse, rather than better. I don't recommend Teen Challenge for anyone. One leader threw bibles at the residents and carried around a baseball bat to scare us. Not good. And a lot of other bad things too."

"I am a mother of a 24-year-old son that I had to rescue out of the Teen Challenge…We were misled, told it was a drug rehab. I had to hire an attorney, as once Teen Challenge found out that my son was requesting a program change (as he could not sign onto their hyper-religiosity) they began mentally abusing him more and even told him he was 'spitting in the face of Jesus' and said 'pack your bags. I'm sending you to prison.' So much mental abuse. I have heard from others that Teen Challenge has no qualms about submitting a 'bad report' to probation to have you thrown into prison/ jail for 'non-compliance' if they even suspect that you are not 'part of God's army.' They ostracized my son for not 'speaking-in-tongues.' When I informed his 'counselor' that my son was struggling with being ostracized for not 'speaking-in-tongues,' the counselor personally told me that 'speaking-in-tongues is a gift from God! Anyone can have it, if they want it. Your son just doesn't want it because he is rebellious against the holy spirit.' I feel that anyone who is court ordered to Teen Challenge becomes a target for being 'broken for Christ.' I am completely flabbergasted by the whole nightmarish experience, the lies I personally was told, the attempts to sabotage my son's program switch request, the mental abuse, to name a few. Teen Challenge Exposed.com has more info from a man who went through the same program my son was is in. I snatched my son out of there and put him in a secular program. My heart swells for those left behind. I want organizations like this exposed, as I feel that the majority of the public does not know the real story. Had I known, we could have avoided it."

"Teen Challenge (in MANY people's opinion) is a cult! Beware! The residents are only hyped up on hyper-religiosity to replace drug addiction. Teen Challenge does NOT believe in ANY other rehabs.(i.e. 12-step programs) They make up rules as they go along. And punish you at their whim for 'breaking' them. They put residents on 'Behavior Modification' which adds more time you must do to complete the program. The longer you are there, the more money they make off of you.(as you work long hours at various jobs) When they "overheard" my desperate son (24 years old) pleading with me to request a program change with his probation officer, they attacked him the next day, told him 'there were no bars on the windows', told him to pack up his stuff and then they DROVE him to a bus station and abandoned him there. With no money. It would have only been 24 hours that a warrant would have been issued for my son 'failing' the program. Then the counselor LIED to me, saying 'your son ran away to score drugs. He told me so'. I had to hire an attorney. Those that are court-ordered to be there are abused and the staff is empowered by the fact that they can ultimately put that person in prison!!!! My son's roommate was bi-polar, and they took away his meds because they said 'Jesus heals'."

Based on these accounts, it certainly appears that Teen Challenge is made up of coercive groups disguised as rehabs.  Perhaps the best explanation for why abuse is occurring is included in TIME (see below)

The religious exemption protects the programs from inspections by the state’s department of children and families, which means students can be imprisoned or shackled and, unlike with licensed youth programs, can be denied contact with their parents and prevented from accessing child-abuse hotlines. Regulatory authority over these religious programs lies almost entirely in the hands of the Florida Association of Christian Child Caring Agencies (FACCA). And these programs flourish in other states as well, since no national regulations exist to oversee such facilities for teens.

It's no wonder the number of negative websites is multiplying.  Here are some of them:

Investigating Teen Challenge

Teen Challenge:  Abuse in the Name of God

Challenging Teen Challenge

and the list goes on… 

There is even a Facebook page that is critical —  Speak Out Against Teen Challenge

What began fifty-five years ago as a well-intentioned addiction recovery program has grown into a behemoth organization with some serious problems.  Thanks to the internet, those who have been abused by Teen Challenge are finding their voice and letting it be heard.  The bottom line is this – if you are considering a recovery program, do your homework, and remember…Caveat Emptor!

Lydia's Corner:    Exodus 28:1-43   Matthew 25:31-26:13   Psalm 31:9-18   Proverbs 8:12-13

Comments

Is Teen Challenge an Abusive Rehab Program? — 281 Comments

  1. meh – there may or may not be overreach or even abuse by individuals. But there isn’t anything systemic at play.

    i have personal involvement, know, and trust family members and close friends who are engaged in Teen Challenge here in the United States and in Europe. It’s a good organization. If people want to leave the program – they can leave. In all of the locations I’m aware of the men and women have to WANT to stay.

  2. I remember reading the Cross and the Switchblade when I was a young teen and being very impressed. The crux of their whole program and the success of the recovery rate of addicts was based upon being filled with the Holy Spirit. They found that only when that happened would the addicts remain free of their addiction. (I am charismatic and have seen this played out countless times, so I have no disagreement there, though I know that there are many here who would.) When the program opened in my province I know that my parents were supporters financially because of the book, but when the head of the program came to my Bible college and preached in chapel I was so turned off by this obsessive focus on evil and the devil, and it was like, “There is no life here, there is no hope here, this guy is obsessed with darkness.” Then I found out from friends who worked there and from those who were in the program that there was no emphasis on the Holy Spirit at all and it was all fear mongering and behavioural control. I mentioned this to my folks and they removed their financial support.

    I can’t source it off hand, but I remember them saying at one point that they had an over 60% recovery rate (I think that provincial/.federal rehab is like 20-30%) and that is another reason why Christians supported it. They wanted to see people get healed and be well. I’ll ask some people I know who worked there years ago and see what they have to say.

  3. No offense and this is just my initial response when I first saw Cross and the Switchblade, one of the members of the bible study came to ask me what I thought, I smiled. I wanted to say, nevermind it is not helpful. I can't fault all of teen challenge as I have seen some wonderful results in my neck of the woods. Nothing, except the love of my students, is black or white, it's all probabilities which are filtered through evidence. We all need to be accountable and we should welcome reasonable accurate accountability. I am sure there is some heresy imbedded in my post that will add to the burden already on my black soul but I would think they would welcome such scrutiny as it would allow them to offer better services to their folks and to God. Granted that is blasphemy and I should rot in eternal torment for thinking such but well, nevermind.

  4. Looking at this from this side of the Pond, I don't understand why organisations such as this should be exempt from normal regulation regarding the way they treat those in their care. This is surely not an infringement of religious liberty. That would occur if the State forced them never to share their faith or pray for teenagers, for example.

    I can understand a reluctance on the part of religious organisations to allow the secular State to interfere, but providing this is solely with a view to ensuring nothing untoward is going on, I would have thought Christian organisations of all people wouldn't have a problem with it. This is a legitimate role of government.

  5. Like most Christian based organizations that grow so large, control and lack of accountability become the norm. I can say that in 1982 when USA Today launched in Denver, I hired a crew from Teen Challenge, and they were the most reliable workers to have in deliveries, etc. Dating back to 1971, I attended a weekly Bible event during the Jesus Movement days (as they call them) in Wiesbaden, Germany as a young teen. I was a young age but only have fond memories of the organization in terms of out reach.

    David Wilkerson even came to Frankfort, Germany sponsored by the local chapter in 1971 and even back then, people came forward with all types of drugs, etc. to lay at the feet so it was from my perspective interesting to witness and retain for latter years.

    A couple years back before Wilkerson was killed/died (road accident), I visited his church in Times Square while in NYC for business. I find no faults with his style of preaching, even though I am not of the charismatic faith, but Wilkerson was always Biblical. What it seems with Teen Challenge is an organization that is governed by many whom are abusive as in the Church but there is no one to oversee their management structure. It is sad, but organizations must determine if growth is a good thing when it can ultimately scar people for life due to abuse that can easily be covered up.

    Teen Challenge goes back so far in time….so keeping an eye on what is being said should be relevant and reviewed by any supporter in the future.

  6. @ Ken:

    Looking at this from this side of the Pond, I don’t understand why organisations such as this should be exempt from normal regulation regarding the way they treat those in their care.

    I’m on this side of the pond and I don’t get it either.

  7. Mark Prez, I also had a great impression of Teen Challenge in Wiesbaden in the 77-79 era (stationed there while in the military). Wonderful people, concerned not only with German youth but American GIs as well. I had an opposite experience with a Teen Challenge director stateside; all my spiritual antennae went into beware mode as he offered to personally disciple a small group that I was involved in, using what he called nouthetic counseling. I ran for my life – it was a good decision.

    I think each rep or center has to be judged individually–but the system is set up so that those who tend toward abusive behavior can receive cover from scrutiny. It is sad that many quality, high-integrity people will suffer because of the lousy behavior of a few (hopefully, just a few).

    The church at large must simply adopt a more adversarial (not hostile) approach to all those in leadership–ask questions, demand accountability, be more of a show-me rather than tell-me kind of people. Recently, the Phoenix Preacher blog published the compensation (obtained surreptitiously) of a Calvary Chapel lead pastor–it included a $30,000 (yes, thirty thousand dollar) vacation fund as a line item. May God have mercy on us all in the western church that we enable behavior such as this when much of Christ’s Church worldwide is suffering.

  8. They shaved him bald that first morning in 2008, put him in an orange jumpsuit and made him exercise past dark. Through the night, as he slept on the floor, they forced him awake for more. The sun had not yet risen over the Christian military home when Samson Lehman collapsed for the sixth time. Still, he said, they made him run.

    The screaming, the endless exercise, it was all in the name of God, a necessary step at the Gateway Christian Military Academy on the path to righteousness. So when Samson vomited, they threw him a rag. When his urine turned red, they said that was normal. By Day 3, the 15-year-old was on the verge of death, his dehydrated organs shutting down.

    When I read accounts like this from religious “homes” for troubled teens, my first reaction is always, “What’s the point?” I.e., how is this supposed to help the child? What purpose does this serve? Why do they think this will do any good? Is it some misguided attempt to instill “discipline,” “endurance” and/or “self-control”? Discipline, endurance and self-control are good things, but this doesn’t actually encourage any of them. The above story in particular probably goes beyond things they do to actual military recruits in actual boot camp (and in any case they have access to medical care in boot camp!).

    Also, Teen Challenge is not the same as Teen Mania, right? Because if I’m not mistaken, Teen Mania has a whole pack of survivor blogs too.

  9. People who link stuff to their particular brand of christianity place themselves in a position where they can become abusive in their enthusiasm or commitment to their particular brand. Have we not seen this under many circumstances?

    IMO religious organizations such as this and others must come under the oversight of the appropriate secular authorities. This is not loss of religious freedom. It is expecting religious organizations to live up to the standards of the state, which they should be more than willing to do. If they are not, then they are suspect.

  10. Hester wrote:

    Also, Teen Challenge is not the same as Teen Mania, right? Because if I’m not mistaken, Teen Mania has a whole pack of survivor blogs too.

    A topic for another post… Thanks for the reminder.

  11. As Deb put it:

    What began fifty-five years ago as a well-intentioned addiction recovery program has grown into a behemoth…

    Likewise, as @ Mark Prez: put it:

    Like most Christian based organizations that grow so large, control and lack of accountability become the norm… organizations must determine if growth is a good thing when it can ultimately scar people for life due to abuse that can easily be covered up.

    There’s just something not good about a behemoth-sized Christian organisation. In a physical human body, every cell * has a certain lifespan, after which it is supposed to die and be replaced. Cells that “refuse” to die, but continue multiplying for multiplying’s sake, are generally described as cancerous. Likewise, when Christian organisations are founded, too little consideration is given to the possibility that they are just like cells in the Body of Christ; they are not individually supposed to last forever, nor to cover the entire world.

    I’m a great believer in the use of Old Testament history, not to create arbitrarily detailed laws and regulations (obviously), but to shed light on principles that apply to the Christian life. I’ve always found it fascinating that the manna God gave Israel in the wilderness had a strict use-before date. If they so much as kept it overnight, it rotted, stank, and was full of maggots (story from Exodus 16).

    And yet the manna was explicitly a God-given thing. I agree with Sarah K that the Teen Challenge of the 1970’s genuinely grew out of something the Holy Spirit himself did. But precisely because of that, I’m convinced that at some point it should have been de-commissioned to make room for the Holy Spirit to do something new. When you take something from the Holy Spirit, and try to cage it with programs and formulas, it dies; at best it becomes stale and formulaic, and at worst it becomes rotten. The stories in the post above are tragic examples of rottenness.

    * Almost every cell. A little inaccuracy can save a ton of explanation sometimes.

  12. Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    I had an opposite experience with a Teen Challenge director stateside; all my spiritual antennae went into beware mode as he offered to personally disciple a small group that I was involved in, using what he called nouthetic counseling. I ran for my life – it was a good decision.

    BINGO!

    The Teen Challenge USA website has a bookstore that sells resources on Nouthetic Counseling (which is now called 'biblical counseling'). 🙁

    https://store.teenchallengeusa.com/principles-of-biblical-counseling-workbook.html

  13. I have come to distrust any independent organization that labels itself as 'Christian' and solicits donations or solicits business – it almost always ends up that the use of the word "Christian' is there only as a trap for the trusting and unwary while making the in control rich while avoiding scrutiny.

    It's even worse when the business being solicited is the care of others. People assume that since the organization describes itself as 'Christian' that it will care for those in its charge with the love and compassion taught by Jesus – in way to many cases though, the 'care' is dictatorial and abusive either because the leadership has some warped and twisted view of Christianity; or they're not Christian in any way, shape, or form and use the word 'Christian' as a marketing scam.

  14. You do great work to expose this but it really makes me depressed to read such horrific stuff done in the name of Christ!!! Lord have mercy!!!

  15. @ doug walters:

    There are days when some of this stuff really affects me. But then we remember the victims, and it gives us the courage to tackle these difficult topics.  I guess TWW's slogan could be NMV – No More Victims!

  16. Our son, during his teens and young adulthood, was in many different types of treatment programs. From that I would offer the following warnings:

    1. Yup, some programs are abusive. Do your homework!

    2. Some programs are anything but abusive, but are rigorous both mentally and physically. Know what you are choosing. If you choose a paramilitary program, OF COURSE your little Johnny or Janie will be yelled at drill instructor style, will endure harsh physical conditioning, and be “forced” to keep going when they would rather quit. That is kind of the point of that type of program.

    3. This is a very important point: most of the young people in these programs have a history of lying, or stealing, of sexual acting out, of manipulating, of drug use, and/or criminal behavior. You just put them in an environment where they can do none of those things. Their usual tantrums and shenanigans don’t work. What controlled dear old mom and dad doesn’t control these new people in authority over them. If crying “abuse” will get them released, they will do so. And once they are no longer in the program–for any reason–they will try to get even by telling horrific stories of abuse.

    Now, are Teen Challenge or New Bethany good or abusive? I haven’t a clue. But I do recognize some of the abuse stories we’ve been reading here as matching an episode of Criminal Minds. Perhaps the producers just knew of abuse. But then again, perhaps some emotionally disturbed people are repeating what they saw on t.v. as gospel truth that happened to them.

    Most programs we encountered were excellent, and discerning parents or should be able to recognize smarmy before they send the kids there.

    And I would advise great caution on this site–tar and feather a good organization and the Deebs could face serious legal consequences.

  17. Sarah K wrote:

    I can’t source it off hand, but I remember them saying at one point that they had an over 60% recovery rate (I think that provincial/.federal rehab is like 20-30%) and that is another reason why Christians supported it. They wanted to see people get healed and be well.

    And to Count Coup (60% SUCCESS RATE! HOLY SPIRIT!!!) over those Secular Heathen rehab programs.

  18. Deb wrote:

    It certainly sounds like Teen Challenge is now devoid of the Holy Spirit. 

    Never mind the Holy Spirit — they’re devoid of the most basic common sense and human decency. What kind of people do such things!? The tactics and behaviour that you describe sound like almost exactly like those carried out at Narconon centres (a cult front group, about which I know far more than I like). I’d thought that such madness was confined to the brain-children of L. Ron Hubbard’s lunacy. But to hear of a supposedly Christian group treating young people so horrifically…

    Words fail me.

    I hope that the states supporting these abusive practices will smarten up, and quickly.

  19. I retiterate what my writing partner told me:

    Kid was playing Dungeons & Dragons (“Dungeons & DEMONS” in Christianese). Pastor father had him committed involuntarily to a Teen Challenge rehab center such as described above. Pastor father bragged that when kid got out, “We’re going to present him with a Bible and a D&D book and see which one he chooses — or else.”

    My informant broke contact with Pastor father at this point, but described the kid as being completely messed up in the head afterwards, whipsawing between Total Rebellion and Total Righteousness/Submission/Excessive Scrupulosity, alternating between both the ways a preacher’s kid can crack up. (i.e. Marilyn Manson or Fred Phelps, nothing in-between)

  20. Deb wrote:

    @ linda:

    Have you had any experience with Teen Challenge or New Bethany? Just wondering…

    Besides defending it like Harley Quinn Syndrome?

  21. linda wrote:

    But I do recognize some of the abuse stories we’ve been reading here as matching an episode of Criminal Minds. Perhaps the producers just knew of abuse. But then again, perhaps some emotionally disturbed people are repeating what they saw on t.v. as gospel truth that happened to them.

    Sounds like you don't believe these testimonies…

  22. Deb wrote:

    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    An excellent commentary, Nick. It certainly sounds like Teen Challenge is now devoid of the Holy Spirit.

    All they have left is Speaking In Tongues Tongues Tongues Tongues Tongues.

  23. Hester wrote:

    When I read accounts like this from religious “homes” for troubled teens, my first reaction is always, “What’s the point?” I.e., how is this supposed to help the child? What purpose does this serve? Why do they think this will do any good? Is it some misguided attempt to instill “discipline,” “endurance” and/or “self-control”?

    Just a guess, but maybe they’re trying to drive “Satan” out of the poor kids. It sounds eerily similar to some bizarre exorcism rituals I’ve heard of.

  24. I think the headline question is too broad. As others have pointed out, the size of the organization, the relative autonomy of local sites, and lack of accountability to other authorities, perhaps along with some of the underlying theology or assumptions when taken to extremes, creates an environment that makes it too easy for abusive leadership to go unchecked and I believe that happens far too often based on these and other accounts I have seen related to Teen Challenge as it currently exists.

    As others have said, when a Christian organization becomes such a behemoth it is probably not likely to remain completely healthy, especially long term. For example, even with an organization that is as generally well thought of in the evangelical Christian community as as Young Life you can find plenty of localized stories of poor and even abusive leadership and cult like patterns simply by doing an online search. That doesn’t necessarily mean the entire organization is rotten to the core or has bad intentions, but that the enormous size, relative autonomy of local and regional leadership etc make for conditions where bad stuff can and sometimes does take place.

    The methods and theology of Teen Challenge along with the fact that it is working with such an at risk population, make it particularly problematic in that regard, though.

  25. My husband is both a graduate and former staff member at Teen Challenge. He and I both now volunteer at one of the juvenile programs. He was a drug addict for 14 years and had gone to 19 other rehabs before a judge ordered him into an adult TC program (some are for juveniles, some are for adults). Before his final arrest he was living from crack house to crack house, stealing to get money to buy drugs. TC changed his life for the better. Most addiction programs advocate replacing your addiction to drugs with other, healthier cravings. For my husband, this was a relationship with Jesus. They did have very strict rules at the program, but this helped him learn how to try and live a normal life, since what he had been living was not “normal” at all. He did make the decision to leave the program once because of the strict rules, but changed his mind after they took him to the bus station (with money for a ticket to go home). I don’t doubt that there are varying experiences with locations and staff members. But I do appreciate what Linda said about the people enrolled at TC- they are there because of problems in their life- addictions that they have been unsuccessful at getting rid of on their own. The extreme order and “religious indoctrination” seems way out there to us, who have never experienced the extremities of living with a compulsive addiction problem, who have never lied or sold things we needed or stole from family members to get drugs. That’s pretty extreme, too. My husband learned a lot from his job service there, too. One of the staff members taught him a lot about working with cars and machinery and that has helped him greatly. He never had a Dad in his life to teach him that stuff. All I know is that it helped my husband, and I do not see abusive behaviors within the TC program where we now volunteer. I see people who, yes, have often come through a lot to get clean themselves, and also some who have never been in a program, trying to help teenaged boys who are beginning a life down the wrong path that leads to where my husband ended up.

  26. jeff wrote:

    In all of the locations I’m aware of the men and women have to WANT to stay.

    My understanding is that there are programs for men and women, who self involve, and there are teen programs. 18 years and older is self enrollment. The under age 18 programs are often court mandated as part of a plea. Teens can't just leave if the program was court mandated. They also cannot just leave if parents have enrolled them. It would be like truancy if an underage 18 child left without parental consent. I am personally against forcing a child into a "Christian" program. Most of the programs I have seen are abusive and try to force God into peoples' lives, which is not possible to begin with.

  27. I would think that any organization working with children, but especially disturbed children, would insist on having state agency inspections for their own protection against possible future false accusations. When they do not one has to ask why.

  28. @ Bevans:

    Thanks for chiming in about your husband's experience with Teen Challenge.

    My first thought is – when was he involved (recently or decades ago)?

    Perhaps the problems that are being reported have happened in the last few years as the organization has become so large.

  29. Bridget wrote:

    I am personally against forcing a child into a "Christian" program. Most of the programs I have seen are abusive and try to force God into peoples' lives, which is not possible to begin with.

    Agreed. This seems contrary to the work of the Holy Spirit.

  30. Nancy wrote:

    I would think that any organization working with children, but especially disturbed children, would insist on having state agency inspections for their own protection against possible future false accusations. When they do not one has to ask why.

    Excellent point, Nancy.

  31. Teen Challange is a mission of Assemblies of God church just as Narconon is a front group for Scientology.

    http://www.culteducation.com/group/1275-teen-challenge/20269-proselytizing-report-teen-challenge-.html

    “I visited with Wayne Soemo, Phoenix Center Director for “Teen Challenge” at 2810 North 16th Street on Monday, June 4, 1984. We spoke together for some time reviewing the activities and goals of Teen Challenge within the ADOC.

    Mr. Soemo openly admitted that the primary purpose of Teen Challenge is the promotion of a specific religious belief system. He made it clear his focus is conversion. Mr. Soemo also admitted that his organization is not meeting any specific denominational liturgical requirements.

    Mr. Soemo also advised that his organization does not posses, nor does he have on file, any specific consent forms that are signed by the custodial parents of minor children currently involved with Teen Challenge at juvenile facilities within ADOC. He also explained that the parents of minor teens do not receive any notification when their children initially become involved in Teen Challenge programs. . .

    The Teen Challenge program has often been equated to a drug rehabilitation theme. However, in the organization’s literature the “Teen Challenge Cure” is stated as follows:

    “The only cure for . . . drug abuse, is Jesus Christ.””

    While I believe pursuing a relationship with Jesus is not a bad thing at all, the rising awareness of sexual abuse within evangelical churches should dispel any myths that such is a “cure” for human addictions. IMO, drug treatment programs should involve licensed, medical professionals along with therapy and nutritional counseling.

  32. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    IMO, drug treatment programs should involve licensed, medical professionals along with therapy and nutritional counseling.

    I wholeheartedly agree.

    In the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, BSAS oversees treatment centers (see below).

    http://www.mass.gov/eohhs/gov/departments/dph/programs/substance-abuse/

    The Bureau of Substance Abuse Services (BSAS) oversees the substance abuse and gambling prevention and treatment services in the Commonwealth. Responsibilities include: licensing programs and counselors; funding and monitoring prevention and treatment services; providing access to treatment for the indigent and uninsured; developing and implementing policies and programs; and tracking substance abuse trends in the state.

  33. @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    People also need to know that Teen Challenge has many different programs besides live-in rehab facilities. People have freedom to attend or not attend these activities.

    Unfortunately, we find abusive people in all organizations, Christian included, and we should be on the lookout where ever we are involved.

  34. @ Karl:

    The intent of this post was to raise awareness and encourage a thorough investigation before getting involved with Teen Challenge.

    Obviously, there are some serious concerns about the organization based on vast amount of information on the internet regarding TC programs.

    As I indicated at the end of the post, let the buyer beware…

  35. Bridget wrote:

    Unfortunately, we find abusive people in all organizations, Christian included, and we should be on the lookout where ever we are involved.

    Completely agree. It’s just unfortunate that many young people have been essentially forced by the courts into what is a “proselytizing” program.

    http://teenchallengecult.blogspot.com/2007/02/did-you-have-bad-experience-at-teen.html?showComment=1186630740000#c7839725381025987041

    “i had no choice but to go to teen challenge in 2001 or go to prison for 5 years, obviously i chose teen challenge. I nor my family nor the court or my probation officer had any idea that i had to fake it to make it. It screwed me up psychologically for years, I used to cry when i finally got out whenever the phone rang, because i thought it was them. When my mandatory year was up, my probation officer had to fight and threaten to go to court to get me out. . .

    I am Lutheran and was told that is an evil non-religion and that all Lutherans and my parents and family included were all going to hell. I tried so hard to be as fanatical as the churches i was forced to go to, but i didn’t understand speaking in tongues, and was also told it was because of lack of spirituality. I got kidney stones while there and against a doctor’s advice was refused pain medication, as was a parkinson’s patient who was also there, who left because her disease got so bad, she couldn’t even sit still for 5 seconds. We were told she didn’t believe enough.”

  36. If children committed to a religious group home because of addiction or other problems are to be considered liars when they report abuse and the home is exempt from inspection by state officials, then the children can be abused at will.

    Of course, I read accounts of boarding schools for the children of missionaries where abuse was rampant and the children were not believed until G.R.A.C.E. investigated so my belief is not that children and teens are liars but that predators gravitate to these kinds of institutional settings.

  37. I would no more want my child court ordered to attend Teen Challenge any more than I’d want them court ordered to Narconon. Why are courts sending “troubled” people to any religious system?

  38. linda wrote:

    And I would advise great caution on this site–tar and feather a good organization and the Deebs could face serious legal consequences.

    We have received excellent advice from professionals and you statement shows a misunderstanding on what constitutes libel. Take a look at this post. This post linked to a number of sources, including Time Magazine. We are responding to what others have said.

    You do know what the legal standard is for libel, right? Two criteria have to be met in the US. You KNOWINGLY tell a lie (1st) and then you do so in order to cause harm to another. We never lie. We live in the US which allows us to believe victims of abuse. So we choose to believe those victims, especially the poor kid that ended up on dialysis.

    linda wrote:

    If you choose a paramilitary program, OF COURSE your little Johnny or Janie will be yelled at drill instructor style, will endure harsh physical conditioning, and be “forced” to keep going when they would rather quit. That is kind of the point of that type of program.

    Just in case you do not understand the difference between rigorous conditioning and abuse – anyone who is bleeding when he urinates is in deep physiological trouble and having to be put on dialysis is not conditioning someone but abusing someone.

  39. Deb wrote:

    @ Bevans:

    Thanks for chiming in about your husband’s experience with Teen Challenge.

    My first thought is – when was he involved (recently or decades ago)?

    Perhaps the problems that are being reported have happened in the last few years as the organization has become so large.

    Hi Deb- He graduated in 2009. He then was hired as a maintenance/repair person for that same program immediately after. Then in 2010 he was hired by a juvenile TC program and worked there for about 18 months. So it’s pretty recent… His good experience doesn’t necessarily negate anyone’s bad experience. There is definitely a certain amount of indoctrination as far as belief systems, etc. The thing is, some people really seem to need this type of total immersion in order to break themselves of their addictions and lifestyles.

  40. Karl wrote:

    The methods and theology of Teen Challenge along with the fact that it is working with such an at risk population, make it particularly problematic in that regard, though.

    I think these groups should call in an outside agency to monitor the treatment being given at each of their locations.

  41. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    While I believe pursuing a relationship with Jesus is not a bad thing at all, the rising awareness of sexual abuse within evangelical churches should dispel any myths that such is a “cure” for human addictions. IMO, drug treatment programs should involve licensed, medical professionals along with therapy and nutritional counseling.

    Great comment!

  42. Bevans wrote:

    There is definitely a certain amount of indoctrination as far as belief systems, etc. The thing is, some people really seem to need this type of total immersion in order to break themselves of their addictions and lifestyles.

    I hope this is clearly communicated to potential participants BEFORE they commit to getting involved in the program.  Otherwise, it is a bait and switch tactic, which I consider to be dishonest, unethical, and totally unacceptable.

  43. Ken wrote:

    I don’t understand why organisations such as this should be exempt from normal regulation regarding the way they treat those in their care. This is surely not an infringement of religious liberty. That would occur if the State forced them never to share their faith or pray for teenagers, for example.

    Exactly. If a church or a faith-based organization has custody of children or disabled adults, they should be subject to the health and safety requirements of the county, state or federal government. As you say, this *is* one of the legitimate functions of government. AFAIK, church facilities are subject to fire regulations because that is a public safety matter.

  44. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    in the organization’s literature the “Teen Challenge Cure” is stated as follows:

    “The only cure for . . . drug abuse, is Jesus Christ.””

    While I believe pursuing a relationship with Jesus is not a bad thing at all, the rising awareness of sexual abuse within evangelical churches should dispel any myths that such is a “cure” for human addictions. IMO, drug treatment programs should involve licensed, medical professionals along with therapy and nutritional counseling.

    I couldn’t agree more! To most of these organizations, addictions only exist because of sin and the focus of ‘treatment ‘ becomes getting the addict to ‘repent’, with disdain for input from any medical or mental health professionals.

  45. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I would no more want my child court ordered to attend Teen Challenge any more than I’d want them court ordered to Narconon. Why are courts sending “troubled” people to any religious system?

    The court allows the parent to choose this option over juvenile detention. The courts don’t automatically allow/choose/send a child to a religious/private program. They are all private programs paid for by the family. Some are religious. The options are usually jail OR a private program IF the court allows it.

  46. dee wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote: Besides defending it like Harley Quinn Syndrome? The Joker was not evil-you are evil!

    Well, when Teen Challenge came to my high school in the early Seventies, for weeks afterwards I was the target of Invasion of the Body Snatchers remake Point-and-Howls using a repeating line in the Teen Challenge presentation: "It's a TRICK of The

    DEV-IL! It's a TRICK of The DEV-IL! It's a TRICK of The DEV-IL!" And you've again proven your Fannish credentials — you picked up on the reference immediately. I don't know the formal psych name, but there actually is a "Harley Quinn Syndrome" where women become fanatical defenders of male abusers or psychos. The most blatant version are the women who develop crushes on imprisoned serial killers and even marry their SoulMate in prison. The Night Stalker was the latest case in the news out here, a couple years ago.

  47. JeffT wrote:

    I couldn’t agree more! To most of these organizations, addictions only exist because of sin and the focus of ‘treatment ‘ becomes getting the addict to ‘repent’, with disdain for input from any medical or mental health professionals.

    Doesn’t Scientology also have a drug rehab program?
    Using LRH Dianetics instead of Nouthetics?

  48. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    The Teen Challenge program has often been equated to a drug rehabilitation theme. However, in the organization’s literature the “Teen Challenge Cure” is stated as follows:

    “The only cure for . . . drug abuse, is Jesus Christ.””

    That matches what I remember from that Teen Challenge anti-drug assembly in high school. That and the other recurring tag line “Tricks of the Devil”.

  49. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Teen Challange is a mission of Assemblies of God church…

    Doesn’t the AoG (“Assh***s of God” in Eighties slang) have its own problems and abuse scandals?

  50. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    Never mind the Holy Spirit — they’re devoid of the most basic common sense and human decency. What kind of people do such things!?

    GAWD’s Anointed Righteous Ones, of course.

    “Nothing’s worse than a monster who thinks he’s right with God.”
    — Captain Mal Reynolds, Free Trader Serenity
    (Yes there is, Captain. A monster who KNOWS he’s right with God.)

  51. Bridget wrote:

    The court allows the parent to choose this option over juvenile detention. The courts don’t automatically allow/choose/send a child to a religious/private program.

    Not everyone would agree.

    http://teenchallengecult.blogspot.com/2007/03/proof-that-courts-are-sentencing-people.html

    “The answer is yes, a judge may court order you to complete Teen Challenge. If you do not complete the program you will violate your terms of probation and then you will have to complete your full jail or prison sentence!”

  52. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Yes, the AofG has its share of abuses. But, as far as Pentecostal denominations go, they are usually less strict on dress and lifestyle than others. I'd consider them more "mainstream." I think Wilkerson started Teen Challenge with good intentions. He had a burden for those "down and out" on the streets. Like others have stated above, it's taken on a life of it's own. It's just another "Christian" institution with no accountability.

  53. I’ve heard about problems in Teen Challenge before, and they’re absolutely worth investigating. But I would just say, be very, VERY careful about using DailyKos as a source for a religion story. The site as a whole — not every individual on the site, but I would say the majority of them — have a heavy bias against religion in general that should be taken into account. Just a word to the wise.

  54. It sounds like a good idea to have an alternative to juvenile detention and especially good to have an intervention program available before the prospect of juvie even comes up. Does anyone know of a licensed Christian alternative that shows good results for troubled teens and parents who don’t know where to turn?

  55. I think a lot of the stuff about shaving heads/forced exercise etc springs from the same root as nouthetic counselling, bear with me here, in that the majority of all kinds of disorder, illness including mental illness, addiction, bad behaviours (however defined) are all actually disorders of the will. If someone will only shape up their will & do the right thing(however defined) all else will be cured.Hence the extreme exercise etc designed to break the will & make people more compliant. This ‘shape up evildoer’ philosophy is at the heart of nouthetic approaches – human beings are pared down to a single one of their many God-Given aspects, here that of choice or self-determination – & all is laid at its door.

    Of course it also conveniently allows those ‘in charge’ to say that no matter what the person has been through, or what they suffer, it is their fault because of their wrong behaviour or chosen reaction. It is also then their fault if the ‘cure’ conveniently doesn’t work. In my opinion it is anti-love – no empathy, no understanding, no valuing of that person for themselves – the only thing that matters is correct behaviour.

    The idea that the authorities & child protection are kept away from this makes me go cold.

  56. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    The court allows the parent to choose this option over juvenile detention. The courts don’t automatically allow/choose/send a child to a religious/private program.
    Not everyone would agree.
    http://teenchallengecult.blogspot.com/2007/03/proof-that-courts-are-sentencing-people.html
    “The answer is yes, a judge may court order you to complete Teen Challenge. If you do not complete the program you will violate your terms of probation and then you will have to complete your full jail or prison sentence!”

    Your missing my point. Courts don’t offer this as an option unless someone (parent/guardian) can pay for it. The juvenile detention system does not pay for private rehabitation programs. But once it is written into the court order, then yes, the parents and the court has made an agreement and if the child runs or does not complete the program then they go to juvenile detention or jail. What I am trying to make clear is that “parents” are part of this decision. Parents can choose a non-religious private program as well. All the private programs are expensive, so their is inequity there as well. For wealthier families the choice of a program or juvenile detention or jail is a no brainer. Most parents want their kids to get help with their issues and not just sit in jail. Some choose religious programs and the court gives them this leeway since they are the parents. In most cases parents are trying to do what they think is best for their child.

    Like I said, I have an issue with forcing a child into a religious program. As far as abuse is concerned, it can happen in any of these environments, and does. It would be great if all the programs could be monitored, but where does the money come from to do this?

    As Deb said, buyer beware.

  57. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I think Wilkerson started Teen Challenge with good intentions. He had a burden for those “down and out” on the streets. Like others have stated above, it’s taken on a life of it’s own. It’s just another “Christian” institution with no accountability.

    Entropy sets in, like a bureaucracy morphing slowly from Lawful Neutral through Lawful Stupid to Lawful Evil.

    And Wilkerson himself showed signs of entropy and “hardening of the attitudes” in his later years. Ever heard of an Apocalyptic Private Revelation book of his called “The Vision”? (According to my burned-out preacher writing partner, the book had a worse fulfillment rate than the New Year’s Psychic Predictions in the supermarket tabloids.)

  58. @ Bridget:
    I’m truly sorry I missed your point. There was a quote on that page about a probation officer choosing TC or else the person on probation goes to jail.

    http://www.topix.net/forum/blogs/TEV4TDE8D9LDKTISS/post5

    Not sure how a probation officer could force someone into a program that the parent would pay for. I”m just reading quotes from other’s experience.

    Also, some parents who tried to get their kids out of the program were being coerced by TC that they would lie to make sure the teen received maximum prison sentence if they dropped the program. Essentially, those parents’ hands were being forced.

  59. For those of you who have had experience with Teen Challenge, I'm just wondering how much some of the residential programs cost. Do the families of the participants pay most of it?

    Also, how does the cost of TC compare with that of other detox programs?

  60. @ Beakerj:
    I agree, but will also introduce this thought into the discussion: the fact that the US has been at war since 2001 also, I am certain, has a lot to do with it. “Military”-style everything (from camo pants and shoes to goodness knows what all else) is part of popular culture here, and the abuse that’s detailed in the post reminds me of nothing so much as Abu Ghraib (and similar places, including one in Cuba).

    I don’t mean to sidetrack this into an unnecessary political discussion, but simply to say that certain kinds of brutality seem to be more widely accepted now than they would have been 15-20 years ago. It sounds like this has been absorbed into the Teen Challenge “method” without missing a beat.

    Humiliation is never a good thing, but the stuff detailed in the post goes way beyond that. It is sadistic and evil, and yes, it is torture.

  61. @ Deb:
    I think that for all practical purposes, TC provides neither “rehab” or “detox” programs, given its focus and methods.

  62. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Also, some parents who tried to get their kids out of the program were being coerced by TC that they would lie to make sure the teen received maximum prison sentence if they dropped the program. Essentially, those parents’ hands were being forced.

    THAT would be TC being abusive to the parent and the teen and inexcusable. The parents should report this to authorities and contact the court with an alternative program they want their child transferred to. All of this takes time, but once your child is part of the court system because they have broken laws, everything gets bogged down with court dates.

  63. numo wrote:

    I don’t mean to sidetrack this into an unnecessary political discussion, but simply to say that certain kinds of brutality seem to be more widely accepted now than they would have been 15-20 years ago.

    Disregarding the political aspects entirely, I’m don’t think that is quite accurate. If anything, the wider culture has become much gentler WRT child discipline. The Gothard approach was successful largely because it went *against* the cultural trend toward gentler forms of discipline and therapy.

    When I was a kid, it was not considered abnormal to “whip” a kid with a strap or paddle a kid. Schools did it all the time, and the paddle was often clearly in view in the classroom. Now that is not the case. I don’t mean that everyone approved of that or that every parent did it, but it was within the range of acceptability in the broader culture.

    I would love to see a discussion about how best to treat or handle families and kids who are so dysfunctional that the kid ends up in juvie or in need of private services. What are the solutions? I wish I knew!

  64. Gram3 wrote:

    The Gothard approach was successful

    Sheesh. I only meant “successful” in terms of popularity and acceptance within certain parts of Christianity. I do *not* think there was anything good about Gothardism.

  65. @ Gram3:
    i honestly think that the increasing militarization of our society is causing HUGE problems, and i think the abusive TC people have absorbed the parts of that mentality that suit them.

  66. @ Gram3:
    these “rehab” places give adults complete power over the kids who are supposed to be in their care. and many of the abusers are (possibly) inured to the use of violence due to having been indoctrinated into rather hellish systems – whether Gothard, Ezzo, Pearl or others – and are using those things on these kids.

  67. Gram3 wrote:

    When I was a kid, it was not considered abnormal to “whip” a kid with a strap or paddle a kid. Schools did it all the time, and the paddle was often clearly in view in the classroom. Now that is not the case. I don’t mean that everyone approved of that or that every parent did it, but it was within the range of acceptability in the broader culture.

    I’m in my late 50s, and grew up with this (in school), too. imo, it didn’t solve any problems, and many teachers used it as humiliation, which is just plain wrong.

  68. Gram3 wrote:

    I would love to see a discussion about how best to treat or handle families and kids who are so dysfunctional that the kid ends up in juvie or in need of private services. What are the solutions? I wish I knew!

    I don't have answers, either, but most juvenile facilities are brutal. I've known people who had to be in them for a time, and it scarred them, both physically and emotionally. I also do not believe that those with psychological problems got much, if any, help there. (This is back when, from when I was in HS and college. I cannot speak to today, but I seriously doubt that many things have changed *that* much.) Our penal system needs a complete overhaul, but how to go about that – ???

  69. Gram3 wrote:

    When I was a kid, it was not considered abnormal to “whip” a kid with a strap or paddle a kid. Schools did it all the time, and the paddle was often clearly in view in the classroom. Now that is not the case.

    Aha. Now I know what I have long suspected. Either you and I are from vastly different areas of the nation or else from vastly different generations or vastly different religious backgrounds or all of the above. What you have described was not remotely how things were where and when I was a child or where and when my children were children.

    Children could be paddled at school only by the principal with an adult witness only after obtaining telephone permission from the parent. They made sure we all knew about this procedure and made sure we were scared of this procedure-especially about calling the parent. Most of the time the parent came to the school to pick up the child and deal with the problem himself. I never heard of anybody beating anybody with a belt or strap with the approval of society. There was one case of a child’s legs whipped with an electric cord at home and the parent was investigated by social services for it.

    However, in both places and generations, mine and my children, children were required to act respectfully to the teachers, and many a note went home concerning improper behavior. The few times I was spanked at home, always by my mother, she made sure to and informed me that she was doing it the only “approved” way, on the buttocks fully clothed and using only her hand. I don’t know whence the concept of “approved” way, but that was the message I got.

  70. I have been volunteering at the Los Angeles Teen Challenge for seven years and have been very impressed by the program. I have seen many young and older women completely transformed. I am also in contact with many former participants through Facebook and text. They ALL testify to the positive impact the program has had on their lives. There are Facebook groups dedicated to this. Your article is not balanced and does not reflect the true picture of what I have seen. I receive no money from the organization and have zero interest in covering up abuse. Teen Challenge is doing a lot of good.

  71. And furthermore, (oh, nancy, go take a nap.) We have had somebody in the military in my family for every generation since the Spanish American war, and while there has been rigorous physical training nobody complained of any abuse such as has been reported by these abusers. Of course nobody trained for special forces or such, but I am not willing to blame the military for this current problem.

    I don’t want to let the current abuse and abusers uses schools or the military as an excuse. That is not the root of the problem. This sounds like personal pathologies and bad religion, a seriously awful combination.

  72. Nancy wrote:

    sounds like personal pathologies and bad religion, a seriously awful combination.

    Somehow they seem to find each other!

  73. @ T:

    Thanks for chiming in with your positive feedback. Teen Challenge is a huge organization, and there do appear to be problems somewhere in the system.  I hope they will be addressed by whomever oversees the 1,000+ programs around the world.

  74. New commenting rule:

    In order to be guilty of libel in the US, 2 criteria need to be fulfilled. 1. The person making the comment must know that they are lying. Then, 2. They must be lying for the sake of causing harm to another person. Also, if someone is a public figure, the bar raises even higher.

    From this point forward, if someone wishes to say that the Deebs can be sued for what they said or that one or more of our readers can be sued for what they said, the commenter must prove that the person who is making the comment is lying and that they know they are lying and that they are doing it to cause harm to the person who is the object of their lies.

    We have been blogging for almost 6 years. We are well aware of the meaning of these words. Unfortunately some of our readers are not. We consider accusing people of libelous comments to be out of line UNLESS there is some proof of that statement.

    In keeping with this statement, one comment is not approved. Said person can submit documentation about which commenter has committed libel and we will consider releasing the comment. Idle threats are not welcome here.

  75. @ numo:

    Please don’t misunderstand me. I’m not saying any of this is good. On the contrary, I strongly opposed the Gothardites and the Ezzos and the Pearls when the young parents thought they were great. I saw it as punitive legalism that does not address the real problem. Similarly, ISTM that these kinds of institutions do not address the totality of the situation. I agree that juvie is brutal, and from what I hear prisons are, too.

    The questions for me include how do we “encourage” changes in laws such that church-related facilities must be licensed? Are there efforts underway to do this? I’m asking because I simply don’t know. Second, what do children who are troubled need to overcome their personal or family difficulties?

    I would love to hear from the victims what helped them. We know what didn’t help them, obviously. How can we make a positive difference?

  76. @ Nancy:

    From what I have read, we do have somewhat different backgrounds. I don’t say much about mine and there is a reason for that. The idea of saying something is true of all sub-cultural settings during a particular time period is not correct. During any era there are differing perspectives, and ours reflect some differences.

    My greatest fear in school was not what the principal would do but what my parents would do when I got home! I don’t mean a beating by any means. But, as you said, we were taught to be respectful of our elders in general and of the various authorities in our lives. I knew what the expectations were as well as the consequences.

    I agree that these abusive situations do not stem from military influence, IMO. On the contrary, the military folks that I know have great personal discipline that was not instilled by abuse but rather by having a personal purpose or mission and realizing that discipline is required to accomplish those goals. However, I am greatly concerned about the militarization of our civilian police forces, though I haven’t looked into why that is happening.

  77. JeffT wrote:

    I couldn’t agree more! To most of these organizations, addictions only exist because of sin and the focus of ‘treatment ‘ becomes getting the addict to ‘repent’, with disdain for input from any medical or mental health professionals.

    When all you have is a sin-sniffing Hammer…

  78. Marsha wrote:

    …so my belief is not that children and teens are liars but that predators gravitate to these kinds of institutional settings.

    Where you have unprotected prey, the predators will swarm. And gorge.

  79. Bridget wrote:

    Your missing my point. Courts don’t offer this as an option unless someone (parent/guardian) can pay for it. The juvenile detention system does not pay for private rehabitation programs. But once it is written into the court order, then yes, the parents and the court has made an agreement and if the child runs or does not complete the program then they go to juvenile detention or jail. What I am trying to make clear is that “parents” are part of this decision. Parents can choose a non-religious private program as well. All the private programs are expensive, so their is inequity there as well. For wealthier families the choice of a program or juvenile detention or jail is a no brainer. Most parents want their kids to get help with their issues and not just sit in jail. Some choose religious programs and the court gives them this leeway since they are the parents. In most cases parents are trying to do what they think is best for their child.

    Like I said, I have an issue with forcing a child into a religious program. As far as abuse is concerned, it can happen in any of these environments, and does. It would be great if all the programs could be monitored, but where does the money come from to do this?

    As Deb said, buyer beware.

    In my state of Delaware, most of the rehabilitation programs for juveniles are run by nonprofit organizations. The State does pay to place the juvenile. Before I retired I was hired by the state or the nonprofit to evaluate a number of these programs. The funds came from the state or were part of the grant that was used to establish the program. I am not aware of any religion-based programs that the state contracted with.

  80. @ Gram3:
    I think the excuse of “well, the military does X” goes a lot further than police departments. Please note that i did not mention people who have been in the military, but increasing militarization in our society.

    Those are two different things.

  81. @ Gram3:
    I think the 1st rule of thumb is that anyplace that has a religious affiliation must meet the same standards re. methods and actual treatment (medical and psyciatric) that are applied to other such places that have no religious asdociation. That means compliance with all applicable state, federal snd local licensibg laws and reviews, among other things.

  82. numo wrote:

    but increasing militarization in our society.

    I don’t understand what you mean by this. Could you elaborate?

  83. What is also despicable is the fact that some states would actually abandon any role in setting standards of care of children and supervision of any organization that does so, simply because that organization claims to be using ‘religious’ practices. When will these idiots realize that calling oneself ‘Christian’ does NOT make it so.

  84. Marsha wrote:

    In my state of Delaware, most of the rehabilitation programs for juveniles are run by nonprofit organizations. The State does pay to place the juvenile. Before I retired I was hired by the state or the nonprofit to evaluate a number of these programs. The funds came from the state or were part of the grant that was used to establish the program. I am not aware of any religion-based programs that the state contracted with.

    Yep. Each state functions independently regarding how juveniles are handled.

  85. @ numo:

    That’s exactly what I’ve been saying since the New Bethany thread. It amazes me that they are not subject to licensing and inspections. Obviously I’ve been in a cave because orgs like this not being subject to health and safety regs is news to me.

  86. @ Gram3:

    Something occurred to me after I wrote that. My experience in school as a child was only one slice of the school population. Segregation was still in force. I have no idea what did or did not go on in African American schools then and there. I have no reason to suspect child abuse, however. Also, where I was up to on third of the student population in grades 1-8 went to catholic parochial schools. I have no idea what went on in those schools. Here again, I have no reason to suspect child abuse. The public school system where I was was white and mostly protestant. I don’t know that any of this matters, but it is told for the sake of full disclosure while I think of it.

    My children were in a small town in a rural county in the south. The schools were integrated, actually without incident. That was a different slice of the schools also. Nobody was abusing anybody on school property, and I do think we would know if there had been.

  87. numo wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    I think the excuse of “well, the military does X” goes a lot further than police departments. Please note that i did not mention people who have been in the military, but increasing militarization in our society.
    Those are two different things.

    Obviously I’ve missed your point. I don’t see increased militarization in our society except in local police departments which I think is alarming. Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you mean by militarization.

  88. Marsha wrote:

    Before I retired I was hired by the state or the nonprofit to evaluate a number of these programs.

    Thanks for that information. In your experience, what do the most effective programs for troubled teens look like? Did Delaware put troubled children in the same facility as children whose parents could not care for them but who were not abusing substances or acting out in other ways?

  89. As stated in the main body of the Deebs article, it seems that the great state of Texas has deemed that ‘faith based’ rehab outfits are exempt from the regulations that others must abide by. As I’ve written before on a previous thread, this should not be allowed because what it amounts to is allowing a particular sect of the Christian religion to practice its own form of ‘Sharia’.

  90. Gram3 wrote:

    Obviously I’ve been in a cave because orgs like this not being subject to health and safety regs is news to me.

    I know I keep saying some good things about some prior experiences with the catholics, but I am saying one again. The year I was a public health nurse, among other things we had certain responsibilities and opportunities with institutions. For example I had two schools I visited once a week. In that census district there was a catholic orphanage which had an outbreak of scarlet fever. We went over there to see about it. Nobody was hiding anything. They offered to take us all over the place. I went into the nun’s residence for one sick nun. They were totally co-operative and glad for our presence. Here is the thing: of course they (the catholic system in general) were severely criticized for crossing some imaginary line about separation of church and state and of course there were those who thought that the health department should not be over there. People everywhere can be hateful and vindictive. It is not alway some institution that is in the wrong.

  91. @ Nancy:

    Based on that, I would say that we did have different environments. I also believe that definitions of what constitutes abuse have changed. IMO that has usually been a good thing, though I believe the pendulum has swung too far and respect and order has gone out the window in too many cases.

  92. Gram3 wrote:

    My greatest fear in school was not what the principal would do but what my parents would do when I got home! I don’t mean a beating by any means. But, as you said, we were taught to be respectful of our elders in general and of the various authorities in our lives. I knew what the expectations were as well as the consequences.

    Totally relate to this. And if a neighbor saw me doing anything wrong, parents were told. You could not get by with anything! We were taught to respectfully question authority. In fact, that was actually reinforced at church! Unheard of today.

  93. Gram3 wrote:

    Marsha wrote:

    Before I retired I was hired by the state or the nonprofit to evaluate a number of these programs.

    Thanks for that information. In your experience, what do the most effective programs for troubled teens look like? Did Delaware put troubled children in the same facility as children whose parents could not care for them but who were not abusing substances or acting out in other ways?

    Delaware doesn’t mix children who are adjudicated delinquent with those who are not. For children who cannot safely remain at home, there is foster care including specialized foster care for troubled youth.

    The most effective programs are those which are the least restrictive necessary because you don’t want a young person taking on the identity of an offender. For a first time misdemeanor offender, pre-trial diversion programs where the charges are dropped after restitution and successful probation have a low recidivism rate. Drug programs or sex offender programs with well trained and experienced counselors work well. The more holistic the program the better, involving the family in counseling and coordination with the school.

    I have not personally evaluated boot camp type programs but others have and they are not effective. In my opinion, the personality structure of troubled kids is already fragile. To use strategies to tear it down and to have untrained staff who have no idea how to build the child back up is dangerous.

    The theory behind these programs is that the offender is lazy and undisciplined and that might be true for someone who gets involved in drugs casually and becomes addicted but in my experience drug use is often self medication because of neglect and abuse. The root causes need to be dealt with and that isn’t done with push-ups and forced marches.

    Across the board, the successful programs have staff that encourage the kids in their programs and are proud of them for succeeding.

  94. Marsha wrote:

    but in my experience drug use is often self medication because of neglect and abuse. The root causes need to be dealt with and that isn’t done with push-ups and forced marches.

    Wish more people would understand that there is usually a root cause to teen issues. Changing the outward behavior without addressing the issues doesn’t work for the long run.

  95. If a “faith-based” rehab program is not required to meet the standards of a secular one, then the courts shouldn’t accept it as a place to send kids to.

  96. Muff Potter wrote:

    it seems that the great state of Texas has deemed that ‘faith based’ rehab outfits are exempt from the regulations that others must abide by.

    Yes. Before a certain former governor deregulated them, Texas regulators “tried to shut down a Christian rehabilitation program called Teen Challenge because its staff failed to meet educational requirements . . .”

    http://prospect.org/article/why-jesus-not-regulator

  97. I don’t know about militarization, but there does seem to be an increase in the acceptance of violence. This seems to come and go. When my son was a little kid he played with little plastic army soldiers, and later in scouts learned to bird hunt-the real thing. Later society said don’t let your kids play with toy army soldiers and for goodness sake keep them away from anything people use to hunt with. Now look at what is in the movies and the video games and look at the direction of our society in this issue. Meanwhile, the little kid with the toy soldiers and learning how to hunt is now part time military and the exact opposite of any problem to society. I think we have our ideas and values crosswise to Sunday.

  98. Marsha wrote:

    Across the board, the successful programs have staff that encourage the kids in their programs and are proud of them for succeeding.

    Thank you for that very helpful overview of Delaware’s process which seems to make sense to me. I’ve only had very limited interaction with child welfare services and how that works. So relieved to hear that the kids are placed in environments that are appropriate for their individual situations. God bless you for being part of the process.

  99. @ Nancy:
    Yes. And i think part of that has crept into acceptance through the violence of war, and our long conflicts in other countries, and the acceptance by manymof yhe use of torture. That is, however, likely a subject for another day and time.

    As to military personnel, i knew some very good, upstanding people who were on active duty when i lived in the D.C. area. Unfortunately, there is a shadow side, and I’ve encountered some of them, too. One was an active duty Marine who was physically and verbally abusive to his 3 year-old son, and whose wife seemed to be frightened of him, but who was the soul of Southern politeness whenever he encountered my roommate and i. But we both saw and heard things that were bad. Another was a Vietnam vet who was a teacher, and whom i had the bad fortune to encounter as a student. He used to humiliate and terrorize us by doing things like locking kids in the supply closet, making one boy that he really resented (a sweet kid who was very bright and went on to a fine career in the sciences) sit in a trash can as “punishment,” as well as subjecting him to humiliating remarks about his weight. I was really frightened of this guy,mand he knew it and used it. School administration wouldn’t lift a finger, because he was a vet (also Marine) and had served his country and all of that. Said teacher used to talk about his little daughter, and i often wondered if he treated her the same way he treated us.

  100. @ Gram3:

    I think it is present in increasingly violent tv shows, movies and video games, as well as in the acceptance of increasingly realistic portrayals of violence. Case in point: American Sniper. I think it is apparent in the agonizing difficulties experienced by servicewomen who report (ed.) having been raped – and on and on.

    I could say more, but am not sure that this is the best place for it.

  101. @ numo:
    Who report.
    the SGM abuse defendants’ attorney has a lt of experience re. rape of servicewomen. She is in a well-known documentary about this.

  102. Nancy wrote:

    I don’t know about militarization, but there does seem to be an increase in the acceptance of violence. This seems to come and go. When my son was a little kid he played with little plastic army soldiers, and later in scouts learned to bird hunt-the real thing.

    That is so true. This will probably get me in a lot of trouble, but ISTM that the public schools and parenting culture in general has effectively outlawed being a boy. Despite my yammering about gender roles, I do think that, generally, little boys are wired differently from little girls. Even though I was a tomboy.

    I’m told that kids don’t get recess or gym class any more. Not to be nostalgic for the good old days, but we ran around like crazy and climbed on the playground equipment with no rubber underneath while our teachers, some of whom were male, got a well-deserved break. After school we played outside until Daddy whistled for us. Little boys were not designed to be still for long periods, IMO. Whatever happened to male teachers and principals, especially in elementary school? Little boys don’t have role models like they used to in school.

    While I’m ranting, there used to be what I’ll call useful violence or purposeful danger. Like making a campfire in the backyard and cutting up stuff with a real knife. Cap pistols and BB guns. All kinds of things that “could poke your eyes out.” Model rockets and model airplanes with real propellers. Power tools. Playing at the creek and maybe following it to the river. Following the river out to the beach.

    Maybe kids get hooked on violent games or act out violently because they are missing that part of development nowadays with being over-managed by adults. I don’t know.

  103. @ Gram3:
    Not having recess or gym classes is just plain nuts, imo. So is not having normal play. In which parents aren’t micromanaging everything. I don’t think young children of either sex should be made to sit still all day, and not have any outlet for their energy. Bys and girls alike need to let off steam.

  104. @ Gram3:
    Bein a teacher is no longer viewed in the way it was, and for many, it is seen as a bad, low-paying, low-status job. there are less people – not just fewer young men – going into the profession as a result.

    I went to a teachers’ college for undergrad and honestly, i wouldn’t have wanted most of the ed majors i knew to get classroom jobs. It was scary.

  105. @ numo:

    Oh, I see. I don’t like explicit violence and, IMO, it is the easy way out just like vulgar comedians go for the easy laugh. I’m trying to see the connection between wars and violent behaviors. When has the country not been at war somewhere? There used to be many more military bases and active-duty servicemen than there are today.

    The thing with women in the military is complicated, I think. The military and the way it prosecutes war today is so different. But certainly the military should not tolerate behaviors like rape or even harassment by either gender, because if there is anything a fighting force needs, it is mutual respect. But people are people, uniform or not.

  106. Nancy wrote:

    I don’t know about militarization, but there does seem to be an increase in the acceptance of violence.

    There is militarization in one sense in the way that even fairly small-town police departments have been equipped with pretty heavy duty military vehicles/weapons/gear.

    But more subtly, there has been a glorification of the military all over the place in the public media and popular culture.

    I don’t this is a great trend for a purported democracy…

  107. @ roebuck:
    And with the glorification of the military, the idea of violence “for the greater good” hasbeen amped up, both subtly and not so subtly.

  108. @ numo:

    My grandkids have daily recess up through fifth grade with PE maybe once a week, then in middle school no recess but a pretty vigorous required PE class. And the high schools have teams in every imaginable sport and some I never hear of. So that is not a problem we have. My oldest g’kid broke both bones in one forearm on some bar climbing thingy at school, and then refused anesthesia when they set the bones, just to prove how tough she is. (That is the one with TKD training who we made give it up.) The south has sometimes been criticized for excessive emphasis on and enthusiasm for sports. Maybe some of it is justified. But there are a lot of days with weather where you can get outdoors-maybe a little wet and cold, but out. That may be a factor.

  109. Gram3 wrote:

    Power tools.

    Agreed. I taught my oldest granddaughter how to use an electric drill a few days back. And her uncle showed her how to set up and control a campfire last year. And if SHTF and I have to resort to chickens in the backyard–I don’t even want to think about it.

  110. roebuck wrote:

    There is militarization in one sense in the way that even fairly small-town police departments have been equipped with pretty heavy duty military vehicles/weapons/gear.

    I don’t know how much is necessary, but I saw a special where they explained the police forces are having to keep up with the weapons the criminals use or else the police cannot overtake the violent criminals.

  111. Bridget wrote:

    the police forces are having to keep up with the weapons the criminals use or else the police cannot overtake the violent criminals.

    Maybe in some big cities (maybe), but not to the extent that this stuff has been showered around since 9/11. And it’s not typically used to overtake violent criminals. It’s often used for crowd control, and to intimidate people with valid grievances.

    Again I say, not a great trend for democracy. If that’s what we have any more.

  112. @ Nancy:
    I like this. James Dobson’s insistence that children ought to stick to activities tht are delineated by his own strict view of gender roles has always driven me crazy, but i think that a lot of people still stick to that svript.

  113. roebuck wrote:

    There is militarization in one sense in the way that even fairly small-town police departments have been equipped with pretty heavy duty military vehicles/weapons/gear.

    We have heard from out in the community that the local law enforcement is heavily recruiting former military for jobs as cops, but only as the jobs come available. (This is not a small town.) I am not concerned about that, actually. I think they are probably better trained and less apt to act rashly out of fear and more apt to be both effective and self controlled, but I have not seen any statistics on that.

    But I do want to say, because it has been in the newspapers, that both military and law enforcement have been and/or are trained in, let me think of a good word, civil unrest. I feel real good about that, because I got caught in some “unrest” once when we were in St. Louis during VietNam. I would have given my right arm for the presence of trained forces at the time.

    But what they want with the big vehicles–that looks odd to me right now.

  114. @ roebuck:
    Exactly, and there are plenty of good sources to prove the points that you and i are making. It is, frankly, alarming to me that there are so many police departments that are both armed and armored by the kinds of military surplus that they’ve been getting for the past 10+ years.

  115. I would love to see the entire US become as gun-free as the UK, where some people do have guns, but where licensing laws are very tough, and police forces don't customarily use sidearms. I realize this is not a popular view, but it is, imo,  a much better way of going about things.

  116. @ Nancy:
    I need to put mr 2 cents worth in about Teen Challenge. 1. One of the most nice kind pastors we have had was a former director of Teen Challenge in Hawaii. 2. We ran a parent support group for parents of troubled young people in the 8o’s and 90’s. Several of the young people ended up at Teen Challenge. I never heard of any abuse. Just complaints about the car washes they did for fundraising, the legalism and the pressure to speak in tongues..if anyone wanted to leave they could and a few did. I also know of changed lives. Somehow the extreme Pentacostalism was an antidote to the addictions. I never could figure that one out. 3. Teen Challenge was at the time a misnomer. They only accepted young people 18 and older, except for a few rare exceptions. One being in Arkansas. There was quite a bit of paperwork involved to yet a young teen into those TC’s. And they didn’t mix the age groups.

    Anyway, my experience with them, although not my cup of tea, has been good. There is another organization called Victory Outreach that is similar. They are more into fundraising than TC and even more Pentecostal and legalistic.

  117. @ Bridget:

    I have a friend who is a SWAT training officer who says if the public knew what the police were up against concerning weapons it would cause panic and put democracy in more jeopardy.

    Not sure what the answer is? the criminals are better armed? Looters can do as they want during unrest?

  118. Nancy wrote:

    I think they are probably better trained and less apt to act rashly out of fear and more apt to be both effective and self controlled,

    Except for the ones with PTSD, and are a bit trigger-happy. I don’t have the stats at my fingertips either… but I do believe that a majority of new hires in police departments everywhere are former military.

    Civil policing is not warfare. Not sure how well the ‘skill sets’ match up…

  119. The police forces are trained and equipped to meet the level of crime in their particular area.

  120. Nicholas wrote:

    The police forces are trained and equipped to meet the level of crime in their particular area.

    With all due respect, this is nonsense.

  121. Lydia wrote:

    If they can. In my area the drug gangs are rampant and they have money for serious arms.

    And in my area, there is no crime, but the police have still been showered by the Feds with armored personnel carriers, RPG’s, full riot gear, etc. This is militarization of the civil police, and it’s strange.

    I am not saying that there are not areas where there is a need for some of this stuff – I’m just saying that it’s gone crazy.

  122. @ roebuck:
    One is a civilian activity, which requires a completely different mindset to what people in the military are trained to do, violent drug gangs notwithstanding. The majority of police work is, or should be, non-violent by nature. We don’t need paramiltary police forces.

  123. @ numo:

    I think I said at the very first that I am alarmed by the militarization of local police forces. I don’t know what is driving that development.

  124. @ Gram3:
    Yes, you did, and i noticed that wsy back. I think Roebuck has put it well, particularly in his 1st comment, just a bit upthread.

  125. @ Leslie:
    Thanks for sharing about your experience with Teen Challenge in the 1980s and 1990s. That was quite a while ago, and I would imagine that the number of programs under the Teen Challenge umbrella was much smaller (and perhaps more manageable) 20 or 30 years ago.

  126. numo wrote:

    James Dobson’s insistence that children ought to stick to activities tht are delineated by his own strict view of gender roles has always driven me crazy

    “Gender specific activities” vary greatly between city and country for one thing. I grew up in a mostly rural life style in the shadow of a city with girl cousins in the city. No way were our lives similar in activities. That is one of the holes in the Dobson agenda. But when the great SHTF is upon us, guess who are the ones with some experience and know-how that folks are going to be needing. Not Dobson’s delicate darlings.

    And, gender appropriate activities vary with the family. My daughter-in-law the race car driver’s daughter knows stuff about cars that I wish I knew, and she has helped me out from time to time when I did not know what to do. And nobody remotely thinks that is inappropriate. Nor does her husband become religiopsychodiskaboobatated about it. Maybe because nobody tried to thwart his self image as a male while growing up.

    Dobson has his head—well, we all know do we not?

  127. numo wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    See Roebuck’s comment also. He said it more directly than i did.

    OK, I haven’t lost my mind totally. I said this very thing at ~3:30 pm.

  128. @ roebuck:

    I don’t have the answers. I just know what destructive looting does to a small business owner who is barely making it as it is. Their insurance goes up sky high IF they can even get it anymore. Not the looters who seem to get by with it. If that sort of violence keeps up, what do we expect? If you have answers to protect property I would love to hear them.

  129. numo wrote:

    Somehow i seriously doubt that military training is good for peacetime activities like crowd control.

    Riots are not peace-anything activities. I think we are getting prepared for societal breakdown the day after–

    That is just my take on it. I have no specific information.

  130. From a Sheriff’s report regarding a Teen Challenge in Bonifay, FL: “On 5/28/05 Her son was physically abused by the staff of Teen Challenge. She said _____ told her that Sgt. Major Morrison physically threw him out of one of the buildings and once outside Mr. Frazier and Mr. McDaniel shoved a garden hose in his mouth and turned the water on then filled his mouth with dirt.”

    http://teenchallengeboycott.blogspot.com/2013/11/boycott-teen-challenge-sheriff-reports.html

  131. Lydia wrote:

    I don’t have the answers.

    Nor do I! I’m just saying that big city policing issues are not the same as small town policing issues, and the militarization of even fairly small town police departments is alarming to me.

    But then, it all comes down to ‘do we have a society, or not’, doesn’t it? If we’re facing societal breakdown, as Nancy suggests, then stick a fork in it, we’re done, and none of anything that we discuss here matters any more…

  132. roebuck wrote:

    Nor do I! I’m just saying that big city policing issues are not the same as small town policing issues, and the militarization of even fairly small town police departments is alarming to me.

    When disasters strike-fire too big for the local fire department, power lines down due to ice storm, such as that-what happens. They ship in people from all over including the little volunteer fire people in the surrounding little towns and the electric company imports people from all over. No way my city could survive financially if they had to maintain police and fire and such personnel enough for a major disaster–got to have guys you can call. Maybe that is part of it.

  133. @ Nancy:

    And I promise you, nobody in their right mind wants medical personnel and institutions that are not trained within half an inch of infinity in every possible bad thing that might happen. All the while thinking it probably will not happen. Better to prepare ten years too soon than two minutes too late. I believe that.

  134. Nancy wrote:

    Maybe that is part of it

    As a former volunteer fireman, let me say that I am all out in favor of mutual aid! But that’s not really what we’re talking about here.

    I fear it’s about crowd control and intimidation, and the trend seems anti-democratic to me…

  135. roebuck wrote:

    And in my area, there is no crime, but the police have still been showered by the Feds with armored personnel carriers, RPG’s, full riot gear, etc. This is militarization of the civil police, and it’s strange.

    Have you asked your police force what is going on? They are civil servants. They should be interacting and responding to your questions.

  136. Back on topic, and apologies for my part in derailing it, does anyone know if the denominational children’s homes are part of the solution or part of the problem? Are there any other good ones?

  137. roebuck wrote:

    I fear it’s about crowd control and intimidation, and the trend seems anti-democratic to me…

    Are you saying that the constitution gives people the right to burn-baby-burn? I guess I am not into that.

  138. Bridget wrote:

    Have you asked your police force what is going on?

    OK, full disclosure time: I live in a very small rural town in central NH. Believe it or not, we do not have a police force, not one officer! Not for several years now – it’s a long story. We’re covered by the County Sheriff, who is a great guy.

    I was talking about neighboring small towns, where heavy stuff was pushed on them even against their will. But do some searching on the web – you’ll soon see what I’m talking about.

  139. Nancy wrote:

    roebuck wrote:
    I fear it’s about crowd control and intimidation, and the trend seems anti-democratic to me…
    Are you saying that the constitution gives people the right to burn-baby-burn? I guess I am not into that.

    I’m not, and I’m all for police protection of life and property. The problem is that the same things required to quell a riot can also be used to prevent a peaceful protest. I’ve never been involved in a riot, but Gramp3 was in a city when one was going on. I was thankful for the police protection. However, I was also involved in a small peaceful protest during the era of desegregation when some racist shenanigans were happening in local government. I’m pretty happy a SWAT team didn’t show up for that. The question for me is how do we protect our first amendment rights while not surrendering our right to life and property?

  140. Another question I have is what is the boundary between “cramming religion down throats” and a presentation of the Gospel which ISTM all Christians would agree would be helpful in addiction recovery. I’m not going nouthetic but rather holistic including medical and psychological services. Does anyone do a healthy and robust addiction recovery Christian ministry?

  141. Gram3 wrote:

    The question for me is how do we protect our first amendment rights while not surrendering our right to life and property?

    This is nub of the issue, Gram3. It might be one of those eternal tensions that we deal with in trying to live in an open and democratic society. But our ‘society’ is so fractured and fragmented. There really is no common culture any more, it seems to me.

    The Great Experiment of American democracy is being, is going to be, tested. I have no idea as to how it might play out.

  142. Gram3 wrote:

    Does anyone do a healthy and robust addiction recovery Christian ministry?

    Not that I (ed.) have seen, but I haven't investigated either.

  143. roebuck wrote:

    OK, full disclosure time: I live in a very small rural town in central NH.

    And I’m in one of the 5 largest cities in the country. I imagine we have different perspectives and needs as far as police coverage is concerned.

  144. Bridget wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    Does anyone do a healthy and robust addiction recovery Christian ministry?
    Not that am have seen, but I haven’t investigated either.

    @ Bridget:
    How does “I” become “am” on a smart phone 🙁

  145. Bridget wrote:

    I imagine we have different perspectives and needs as far as police coverage is concerned.

    Ya think? 🙂

    I better understand where you’re coming from…

  146. This post does seem to be getting off topic. Let us get back to the issue at hand. I emailed my Pastor friend, who was the Hawaii Director, and still has many contacts with TC. I gave him the website. Hopefully he will join the discussion. As I have said before he is one of the few Pastors I have truly respected through the last 35 years.

  147. linda wrote:

    Our son, during his teens and young adulthood, was in many different types of treatment programs. From that I would offer the following warnings:
    1. Yup, some programs are abusive. Do your homework!
    2. Some programs are anything but abusive, but are rigorous both mentally and physically. Know what you are choosing. If you choose a paramilitary program, OF COURSE your little Johnny or Janie will be yelled at drill instructor style, will endure harsh physical conditioning, and be “forced” to keep going when they would rather quit. That is kind of the point of that type of program.
    3. This is a very important point: most of the young people in these programs have a history of lying, or stealing, of sexual acting out, of manipulating, of drug use, and/or criminal behavior. You just put them in an environment where they can do none of those things. Their usual tantrums and shenanigans don’t work. What controlled dear old mom and dad doesn’t control these new people in authority over them. If crying “abuse” will get them released, they will do so. And once they are no longer in the program–for any reason–they will try to get even by telling horrific stories of abuse.
    Now, are Teen Challenge or New Bethany good or abusive? I haven’t a clue. But I do recognize some of the abuse stories we’ve been reading here as matching an episode of Criminal Minds. Perhaps the producers just knew of abuse. But then again, perhaps some emotionally disturbed people are repeating what they saw on t.v. as gospel truth that happened to them.
    Most programs we encountered were excellent, and discerning parents or should be able to recognize smarmy before they send the kids there.
    And I would advise great caution on this site–tar and feather a good organization and the Deebs could face serious legal consequences.

    1. You are agreeing that “some” programs are abusive and implore parents to do their homework, but just before stating that you disclose that your son has been to many of them. Sending a child to “many” different types of programs means that apparently your choices for your son didn’t prove to be successful in helping him. What does that say about your own discernment, and the discernment your son learned by your example?

    2. What you are stating are the same old, tired selling points used by the directors of these programs. I would not be at all surprised if you don’t heavily recruit for such a place right now. I have spoken to parents who were duped into doing this. I’m sorry you are still under this “program’s” control.

    3. Yet again, another worn-out selling point to discredit abuse victims, heavily used by program directors to discredit children to their own parents, ot anyone else they want to believe that they were abused. This leaves staff and “counselors” with the ultimate power over YOUR child to convince them that ANYTHING your child might try to disclose to you will automatically be perceived as a lie, that you, as their parents are aware of the “treatment” of your child and that you give your full approval of it, and that you no longer want your child to be part of your family until the “program” has successfully broken them. Adults have the right to CHOOSE military training, a child doesn’t.

    How can you say most programs you sent your own son to are excellent when you’ve made it plain that you’ve sent him to several? What is the difference between “excellent” and “successful”? Apparently, your choices for your son weren’t so excellent, else you wouldn’t have had to send him to several different programs.

    And you want to blame the disclosures of abuse on emotionally disturbed people while at the same time proudly saying you sent your own son to SEVERAL programs that apparently didn’t work. Who is disturbed?

    You are likely the director of a program yourself, or a recruiter for one.

  148. Gram3 wrote:

    @ numo:
    Please don’t misunderstand me. I’m not saying any of this is good. On the contrary, I strongly opposed the Gothardites and the Ezzos and the Pearls when the young parents thought they were great. I saw it as punitive legalism that does not address the real problem. Similarly, ISTM that these kinds of institutions do not address the totality of the situation. I agree that juvie is brutal, and from what I hear prisons are, too.
    The questions for me include how do we “encourage” changes in laws such that church-related facilities must be licensed? Are there efforts underway to do this? I’m asking because I simply don’t know. Second, what do children who are troubled need to overcome their personal or family difficulties?
    I would love to hear from the victims what helped them. We know what didn’t help them, obviously. How can we make a positive difference?

    Perhaps there should be a program for parents where they are separated from their children and loved ones until they can learn healthier solutions for their lack of helping their own child instead of pawning them off on someone else and getting them out of their way for awhile.

  149. @ Lydia:
    that’s one of the reasons I was such a goody two shoes. My parents would know before the dust settled or the blood started to flow.

  150. Nancy wrote:

    Dobson has his head—well, we all know do we not?

    We do indeed, and that’s his right so to speak. But what I’m really happy about is that through the efforts of bloggers and other online media outlets, Dobson’s influence is waning.

  151. Beakerj wrote:

    Of course it also conveniently allows those ‘in charge’ to say that no matter what the person has been through, or what they suffer, it is their fault because of their wrong behaviour or chosen reaction. It is also then their fault if the ‘cure’ conveniently doesn’t work. In my opinion it is anti-love – no empathy, no understanding, no valuing of that person for themselves – the only thing that matters is correct behaviour.

    Hmm…this paragraph reached out and shook me. In a good way. I grew up in AofG and am 3rd or 4th generation on both sides. For some reason, your words here shook loose a realization for me. I have been fighting for some years to break this self-destructive thought process that I am never doing it right and it is my fault for not letting God ‘fix’ me. Ugh. I think I just got permission (internally) to finally let the AofG doctrine I grew up in take its fair share of the blame for this.

    As for Teen Challenge, I’ll allow that it may actually help some people. But the religious indoctrination that goes on is not okay. I have not been in one myself, but I have multiple family that were involved and I can’t publicly share that story – and dang, I wish I could. But I do know that a particular AofG I used to be involved in thought that the proper rehabilitation coarse for an adult alcoholic and child molestor (although I am not sure of the AofG was fully aware of that aspect, but still…) was to send him to a Teen Challenge – as a counselor!

  152. numo wrote:

    I don’t mean to sidetrack this into an unnecessary political discussion, but simply to say that certain kinds of brutality seem to be more widely accepted now than they would have been 15-20 years ago. It sounds like this has been absorbed into the Teen Challenge “method” without missing a beat.

    Believe me, TC has been abusive longer than 15 years.

  153. @ Gram3:

    Your comment is a big true true Gram. We’ve swapped the abusive corporeal punishment extremes of the old days for the other extreme these days. There’s got to be a way forward and a sane balance with what was good before the world moved on, and the things we’ve learned since then.

  154. Marsha wrote:

    The theory behind these programs is that the offender is lazy and undisciplined and that might be true for someone who gets involved in drugs casually and becomes addicted but in my experience drug use is often self medication because of neglect and abuse. The root causes need to be dealt with and that isn’t done with push-ups and forced marches.

    Yes!!!

  155. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    Marsha wrote: The theory behind these programs is that the offender is lazy and undisciplined and that might be true for someone who gets involved in drugs casually and becomes addicted but in my experience drug use is often self medication because of neglect and abuse. The root causes need to be dealt with and that isn’t done with push-ups and forced marches. Yes!!!

    I second that!

  156. @ Jeannette Altes:

    It seems clear to me that addiction systems include family and friends and that they need to be addressed instead of focusing only on “fixing the kid.” Is there some distinctive of AoG theology that informs the methods at TC or is it just more generic legalism like New Bethany? is the Gospel force-fed or presented as a new way of life?

  157. Nancy wrote:

    numo wrote:

    Somehow i seriously doubt that military training is good for peacetime activities like crowd control.

    Riots are not peace-anything activities. I think we are getting prepared for societal breakdown the day after–

    -after The Coup, you mean?

    I’m hearing more and more speculation that the US will have a dictator within this generation. Latest odds I heard were before 2020.

  158. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I’m hearing more and more speculation that the US will have a dictator within this generation. Latest odds I heard were before 2020.

    I guess I could see that. People my age think they’re alot smarter than they actually are.

  159. Gram3 wrote:

    @ Jeannette Altes:

    It seems clear to me that addiction systems include family and friends and that they need to be addressed instead of focusing only on “fixing the kid.” Is there some distinctive of AoG theology that informs the methods at TC or is it just more generic legalism like New Bethany? is the Gospel force-fed or presented as a new way of life?

    Hmm….this is tricky. Both? It is presented as a new way of life to the ‘sinners being evangelized,’ but to those already in the system, it can be very performance based. I can remember growing up, there were people who were considered not really true Christians because of behavior….a lot of judging. One of those people later turned out to have a brain tumor that was successfully removed and was 100% responsibility for her odd behavior. No one ever apologized for their treatment of her.

    As far as TC goes, I know that it was often used (by those I was aware of) to send kids to get straightened out religiously…no legal issues or substance abuse issues. Just rebelling against the church. So send them to get the ‘fear of God’ put in them. Behavior modification so that you become afraid to not follow the doctrinal line. I fight this and never was even eent to TC. I know someone who was and she is not well mentally. All of her pain and issues were just stuffed. And now, she plays her part and does the church thing and her parents are happy as clams. But it is so fake and I just want to weep for the little girl I once knew. 🙁

  160. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    I think I just got permission (internally) to finally let the AofG doctrine I grew up in take its fair share of the blame for this.

    Yay! Glad to be of service. 🙂 Seriously, I really hate this type of thing & what it can do to people already carrying heavy burdens. It also conveniently 'ignores' the fact that some of what is called bad behaviour – self-medicating with substances, or refusing to go to church for example – can be part of a survival strategy kicking in to help a traumatised person survive mentally or physically for just one more day. Causes of teenage problems such as those TC 'deals with' are complex & delicate & there is no one-size-fits-all solution.

  161. JeffT wrote:

    What is also despicable is the fact that some states would actually abandon any role in setting standards of care of children and supervision of any organization that does so, simply because that organization claims to be using ‘religious’ practices. When will these idiots realize that calling oneself ‘Christian’ does NOT make it so.

    I agree, but I’d like to add one more step.

    There is A Thing that I’ve taken to calling The Christian Delusion of Competence.

    In a nutshell, it means: I’ve read a book, been to a conference or a weekend training workshop, and prayed about it: ergo, I’m on a mission from God and nobody can teach me anything.

    So I concur with your statement that calling something Christian doesn’t make it Christian. Furthermore, being a Christian doesn’t make someone mature, reliable or experienced, and it doesn’t mean they know what they’re doing. This can make them very dangerous, because they can zealously pursue their ideologies in the face of any amount of contrary evidence.

  162. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    This can make them very dangerous, because they can zealously pursue their ideologies in the face of any amount of contrary evidence.

    Help us here Nick. I have preached “look at the evidence” on so many things for so many years but so many people think evidence is a four letter word. Good example: in this nation we cracked down on cigarettes because of health reasons. Getting people to believe the evidence was a monumental task, as to some extent still is. But the evidence is overwhelming. There are a number of health issues in which people do this.

    Cooler heads in religion preach look at the historical evidence or the scientific evidence and people cover their ears, so to speak, so as not to hear. We see this in politics and race relations and current social issues–just all over the place. Like some motto: I have my mind made up so don’t confuse me with the facts.

    Here is what I cannot understand. Why do people not rush to get the evidence? Why would they not feel safer with evidence based thinking? Why do they think that they themselves can ignore the evidence, follow some pet idea, and somehow that is going to work out for them? I don’t get it, so I don’t deal with it well.

  163. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    As far as TC goes, I know that it was often used (by those I was aware of) to send kids to get straightened out religiously…no legal issues or substance abuse issues. Just rebelling against the church.

    Like playing D&D.

  164. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    no legal issues or substance abuse issues. Just rebelling against the church. So send them to get the ‘fear of God’ put in them.

    ISTM it is a big mistake to mix kids who are having legal or substance abuse issues with kids “rebelling against the church.” Maybe that stems from the belief that everything is rebellion and sin when the kids I know and the kid I was are much more complicated than that.

    I once “rebelled against the church” and the way my parents handled it was pretty wise, IMO. They said I had to come with them but that I was free to read quietly either in the car or inside the building–whichever I chose. They kept me close and I didn’t feel the need to rebel against that. They respected me and I respected them. Win/Win. Kids and their families are individuals and there is no magic formulary of Bible verses to “fix” them.

  165. Nancy wrote:

    I have preached “look at the evidence” on so many things for so many years but so many people think evidence is a four letter word

    Just a quickie. Is the answer the irrationality of sin? People receive information/evidence that certian things are harmful to them, but are so concerned to maintain their personal autonomy and be in control of their own life they ignore it, even if it will lead them eventually to suffer. Smoking, overeating, promiscuity … It’s a bit less irrational if it is a reaction to constantly being told what to do or what to believe, but in the end this can still be harmful.

    This can work at both a ‘spiritual’ and very mundane level.

  166. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    As far as TC goes, I know that it was often used (by those I was aware of) to send kids to get straightened out religiously…no legal issues or substance abuse issues. Just rebelling against the church. So send them to get the ‘fear of God’ put in them. Behavior modification so that you become afraid to not follow the doctrinal line.

    I know of people who did this sort of thing. They also kick their teenage children out of their homes for not following the parent’s every whim. The parents are more concerned with how their family “looks” in the christian club than what is really going on in/with their child. I’ve seen parents be mean and stubborn with children, acting more like dictators than parents.

  167. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Furthermore, being a Christian doesn’t make someone mature, reliable or experienced, and it doesn’t mean they know what they’re doing. This can make them very dangerous, because they can zealously pursue their ideologies in the face of any amount of contrary evidence.

    Amen to that. Seminary training can compound the problem instead of correcting it, too.

  168. Ken wrote:

    but are so concerned to maintain their personal autonomy and be in control of their own life they ignore it, even if it will lead them eventually to suffer.

    I think it’s a bit more complicated and nuanced than tagging the “autonomy and I want to be in control” label on it.

  169. @ Gram3:
    Jesus chose fishermen. He also chose highly educated Paul.

    Out of these two sorts of people, whom did it take longer to prepare for a ministry?

  170. Ken wrote:

    Just a quickie. Is the answer the irrationality of sin? People receive information/evidence that certian things are harmful to them, but are so concerned to maintain their personal autonomy and be in control of their own life they ignore it, even if it will lead them eventually to suffer. Smoking, overeating, promiscuity … It’s a bit less irrational if it is a reaction to constantly being told what to do or what to believe, but in the end this can still be harmful.

    Ok, I’ll bite. Let us look at the example of child molestation or rape of a teen. What is shocking to people is to find out that many victims become sexually promiscuous. Why? Does not make sense.

    I personally believe that what they suffered even AFTER their abuse with finally telling someone or going through the process whether legal or emotional has a lot to do with it. They now feel worthless. Even simple questions like what where you wearing or but he is a godly man have such wounding power, we cannot even imagine. The worst place for victims is church! And goverment programs see so much of it is almost ho hum.

    It goes back to what JeffS said on another thread. We have to stand up for the weak. We must fight for them and be adamant about their value and justice. So the “sinful” actions are often a response to horrible heinous sin done to them. How we respond to the sins done to them is very important.

  171. Lydia wrote:

    I personally believe that what they suffered even AFTER their abuse with finally telling someone or going through the process whether legal or emotional has a lot to do with it. They now feel worthless

    Often times people haven’t expressed what they have been through and are perceived as a vile, evil, person by those who only see “sin.” It can be hell for such a person to sit through a Sunday service when they hear so little about the love God has toward them, but reams about their worthlessness, brokenness, and God’s sovereignty that wills it all to happen so he can get the glory. It can leave people more broken than when they walk in the door.

  172. I am somewhat concerned with the tone of the ‘militarization of police/society’ comments. I speak this as a 6-year military veteran (though never in combat, in more than a few situations of violent confrontation–never shooting, but a few improvised weapons that were sharp). When we speak of ‘militarization’ we are observing people who for the most part have never been a part of the military but have been given military weaponry. Many of these people seem to take on a power-trip mentality that they think, and many observers think, is typical of the military.

    I am speaking, of course, outside a direct combat setting, but I was taught in the military (including NCO leadership schools) that the best approach to tense, potentially violent situations is to first try to deescalate the situation through calm, rational speech and actions (while gathering sufficient resources so that if it did escalate to violence, overwhelming, non-lethal force would be applied–only as a last resort).

    It is a rare person in the military that I found eager to exert violence if it could be avoided (again, outside a direct combat situation). Please, I ask that our of respect for those who served, and serve, honorably, do not typecast the behavior of military wannabes with that of true military professionalism. I was taught restraint, and a variety of deescalation techniques to help resolve non-combat adversarial confrontation.

  173. @ Bridget:

    And why would a person in such pain want to share this with people who worship such a god? Can you imagine being forced into a religious environment when people don’t know you or what you might have been through? Most of them aren’t trained to seek to understand either.

  174. Bridget wrote:

    but reams about their worthlessness, brokenness, and God’s sovereignty that wills it all to happen so he can get the glory

    I’m in no sense doubting you, but who actually says things like this? What I mean is that God actively wills abuse or similar in order to get glory? I recently heard J Mac on suffering, and he took the line God gets the glory out of it, but I found it most unconvincing. He was so into the sovereignty of God that I felt he was beginning to create a caricature, though I appreciated some of what he had to say about a difficult subject.

  175. I worked in a Christian (one site) residential drug rehab for young women/moms several years ago. It is one of the few in my area where mothers can live with their children (under the age of 5). The program had firm house rules, but there was never any yelling or physical abuse on the part of the staff. If anything, the environment was uplifting and encouraging. They have a 60% success rate, and the majority of the 60% are still clean and sober after five years. They will call your probation officer if you violate parole, but they are also the first to take you back if you are truly willing to “work your program.”

  176. @ Ken:
    I find the argument about God getting the glory when someone suffers. I suggest that some of these guys spend a week on a child’s cancer ward watching a 2 year old in pain. Better yet, visit home after home of child abusers and see children suffering.

    Recently, I heard an atheist speaker say that these very things cause him to question the morality of God. For most people, including Christians, the “God is glorified when a 2 year old screams in pain and fear, is not comforting nor convicting.

  177. Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    It is a rare person in the military that I found eager to exert violence if it could be avoided (again, outside a direct combat situation). Please, I ask that our of respect for those who served, and serve, honorably, do not typecast the behavior of military wannabes with that of true military professionalism. I was taught restraint, and a variety of deescalation techniques to help resolve non-combat adversarial confrontation.

    I know this to be true of the vast majority of the military as well as police. Some of the most gentle people I know have served in the military.

  178. Lydia wrote:

    I personally believe that what they suffered even AFTER their abuse with finally telling someone or going through the process whether legal or emotional has a lot to do with it. They now feel worthless. Even simple questions like what where you wearing or but he is a godly man have such wounding power, we cannot even imagine. The worst place for victims is church!

    Well said.

  179. @ Ken:

    Ken –

    It’s not put in so few words, or as condensed as what I wrote. It is parsed and drawn out. But it is the message that a broken person comes away with when unbalanced theology is taught.

  180. Thank you, Dee–one would have to be at least borderline sociopathic or psychopathic to revel in or enjoy violence, or the aspects of control that some seem to enjoy. I have met far more of those types of personalities ouside of the military than in the military. I think the military has a built-in, though informal, system for identifying those that lie outside the reasonable behavior spectrum and find ways to separate them from the service. It would behoove the church, as well, to develop a system that filters out those types of personalities (perhaps the more formal final interview process that candidates in historical denominations go through helps with that process). Though, from the stories we hear, it is not foolproof, either.

    Women and men of experience need to sit on pastoral and elder search committees and converse with candidates, probe them with difficult scenarios, not let them give canned answers. I think the presence of women is particularly important–my wife is far superior at identifying potential idiots than I am–men tend to be to trusting of other men. Balance in perspective and evaluation.

  181. Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    Thank you, Dee–one would have to be at least borderline sociopathic or psychopathic to revel in or enjoy violence, or the aspects of control that some seem to enjoy. I have met far more of those types of personalities ouside of the military than in the military. I think the military has a built-in, though informal, system for identifying those that lie outside the reasonable behavior spectrum and find ways to separate them from the service.

    Because today’s military is all about CONTROLLED violence.

    And these “borderline sociopathic or psychopathic” are UNCONTROLLABLE violence.

    You saw the dichotomy in Greek mythology; look at the two gods of Olympus associated with war:
    * Athena, Goddess of Wisdom and the Art of War.
    * Ares, God of War for the sake of War alone.
    In her war aspect, Athena personified controlled violence for a purpose, under the guidance of Wisdom. Ares was in it purely to get off on the Ultra-violence.

  182. By what I’ve read here, it is safe to say that Teen Challenge engages in a “Christian” version of brainwashing? Do they use brainwashing to make “Christians”?

  183. Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    When we speak of ‘militarization’ we are observing people who for the most part have never been a part of the military but have been given military weaponry. Many of these people seem to take on a power-trip mentality that they think, and many observers think, is typical of the military.

    In comics fandom years ago, I heard it expressed this way:
    “Boots who’ve never seen action are like Marvel’s Sgt Fury and his Howling Commandoes. Those who have seen action are more like DC’s Sgt Rock.

  184. dee wrote:

    I know this to be true of the vast majority of the military as well as police. Some of the most gentle people I know have served in the military.

    Dee, and CoE,

    I am very sorry if I came across as stereotyping former military. Indeed, in teaching adult education college courses, I met many fine veterans – smart, competent, dedicated, and yes, gentle – some of my favorite students.

    I also know several of what CoE refers to as ‘wannabes’, and among them, some scary people that I would not like to see in a police force.

    I do not feel, however, that military experience necessarily translates to a civil policing skillset (though I do take your point re: discipline, understanding rules of engagement, etc.). It seems to me that the military experience is predicated on having an enemy. Although there are without question some extremely bad actors out there, the us vs. the enemy thing can spill over, as we have seen in recent times.

    I do, however, apologize for conflating my experience with ‘wannabes’ with people who have served honorably in the military, given up so much, and in too many cases, everything… Thank you and God bless you.

  185. Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    I think the military has a built-in, though informal, system for identifying those that lie outside the reasonable behavior spectrum and find ways to separate them from the service.

    I am a non-veteran mother of a current JAG officer. I don’t know anything about what you may be saying from a psych viewpoint. I do know, however, that the military actively prosecutes their people who get out of line based on their rules and regs. Any idea that the military is a free for all for bad boys is not accurate.

  186. About the wannabe thing, maybe that is why they are saying around here that our local law enforcement is trying to fill vacancies with actual military veterans who are given preference over others. Maybe they don’t want to deal with wannabes if they can get the real thing for that very reason.

  187. roebuck wrote:

    I do not feel, however, that military experience necessarily translates to a civil policing skillset (though I do take your point re: discipline, understanding rules of engagement, etc.). It seems to me that the military experience is predicated on having an enemy.

    From what I’ve heard, among cops Narcs are especially prone to “predicated on having an enemy” — remember the DEA and The War on Drugs (which started the trend of heavy military equipment for cops)? One retired FBI profiler (analyzing the Jon Benet Ramsey murder fiasco) put it this way: “Their first mistake was putting narcotics cops on a murder case. Homicide operates under the mindset of ‘Who does the evidence point to?’; Narcs operate under the mindset of ‘We already KNOW he’s guilty, how do we GET him?'”

    Add heavy military equipment/weaponry to the mix, and I would figure Narcs as being the most likely to develop a “military wannabe” syndrome of ‘all who are not Us are The Enemy’, with street cops in a very rough part of town second.

  188. Roebuck, thank you for your kind clarification. Sometimes we just need context. Nancy makes a great point regarding the formal methodology used by the military to prosecute bad actors. Informally, people that could not be trusted were separated for a variety of reasons without formal prosecution, if that makes any sense.

    Military discipline and order is based on relationships of trust between those of command level rank and the lower ranks. In my experience, I saw officers removed from command simply because of the breakdown that occurs when those being led do not trust those leading them. This is not well understood by those who do not have military backgrounds–the movies make it seem like a very autocratic system in which those with little rank have no input. I found it to be the opposite–I had many frank discussions with those of higher rank–and they listened, even if they did not change their minds, at least they listened. In the military, organizational failure is always seen as leadership failure. Seems the opposite in the church, where the sheep are blamed for the failures of the shepherd.

  189. Shannon H. wrote:

    Do they use brainwashing to make “Christians”?

    Fascinating question. I do think that sometimes certain Christian groups employ tactics used by cult groups to brainwash. I have also seen parents do the same thing with their kids. It is one thing to raise them in the knowledge of God and quite drown them so that the do not question things until they leave home. I plan to mull on this over the weekend.

  190. keep in mind that the military is all-volunteer now, and that many things about it have changed from Vietnam to now. there is better psych screening, but people are sent on repeated tours of duty in war zones.

  191. @ Cousin of Eutychus:
    i believe it was far more autocratic just a few decades ago, when most young soldiers were draftees, certain kinds of abuse by drill sergeants and others was the norm, etc.

  192. Basic training is a whole different animal than normal military duty–relationships and intent are much different and when I reference my military experience I always keep it separate from basic training. My basic training memories are mostly humorous–most understand it is a game with a very serious intent that one must learn to play in order to thrive.

    The acting stops after basic training.

  193. i also want to be clear in stating that i have known some truly kind people who were/still are in the military. but, as i said earlier, there is a shadow side. one aspect of that back in the 90s was whit supremacist adherents in the army. it was a big problem, and there were feature stories about it in the NYT and Washington Post. apparently, things are better now, but they were bad at that time.

    I don’t think that pointing out problems or problematic people means that the whole institution is bad. But there always will be bad things, and bad people. It’s important to keep those things/people in check.

  194. @ Cousin of Eutychus:

    Basic training is still pretty awful in the Marines, though I gather that drill sergeants are not given the kind of leeway that they used to have. The ethics have changed, and for the better.

  195. @ Cousin of Eutychus:

    Very interesting – I have no military experience, and have only heard indirectly from friends about this dynamic.

    I sometimes regret not having done a stint in the military back in the day (that would have been the 1970’s for me). It would have been better for me than some of the paths I wasted my time on. The 70’s were weird, and I was not particularly discerning back then…

  196. roebuck wrote:

    I do not feel, however, that military experience necessarily translates to a civil policing skillset (though I do take your point re: discipline, understanding rules of engagement, etc.). It seems to me that the military experience is predicated on having an enemy. Although there are without question some extremely bad actors out there, the us vs. the enemy thing can spill over, as we have seen in recent times.

    Very much agreed. After all, combat training means being trained to do away with other human beings, by default. And that is *not* something that policing should be about. I also do worry about vets with problems (PTSD or otherwise) being hired by police forces. By no means am I saying that all vets have PTSD or would shoot with intent to harm or anything like that, but given the way in which people are being sent back into combat on repeated tours (which was not the norm in the past), I would think twice and want a thorough psych eval of any job candidate who has been in that situation. Policing is civilian, not military, though obviously, there are extraordinary situations in which different tactics are called for. But they are rare.

  197. @ roebuck:
    I think there is more concern now – and actual ways of helping – for those who have experienced serious emotional and psychological damage as a result of being in combat. That was *not* true during Vietnam, or after, and there are still a lot of damaged people out there who have never gotten the help they needed.

    Meanwhile, movies like American Sniper are wildly popular. Which, imo, is quite scary, though it says more about wannabees than it does about the military per se.

  198. @ numo:
    ok, I mangled the grammar there, but you get my drift.

    I used to be friends with one of Gen. Omar Bradley’s grandchildren, and we once talked about the incident where Patton struck a shell-shocked man (and was very abusive verbally) in front of Bradley. Bradley was angry about that – justly so, I think – for the rest of his life.

    Patton would likely never have been able to advance in his career if we had not been in WWII; that incident alone would have seen him kicked down to a much lower level, or court-martialed. Whether that should have happened anyway… well, I think you can guess where my sympathies lie.

  199. numo wrote:

    Meanwhile, movies like American Sniper are wildly popular. Which, imo, is quite scary, though it says more about wannabees than it does about the military per se.

    Did you see the movie, Numo?

  200. one more thing: WWII changed many things, not least the view of enlisted men vs. officers. Read From Here to Eternity, for example. I remember being shocked by the contempt many of the officers characters expressed for the men, and asked my parents about it. They told me it was true, and I have no reason to doubt their word. (My dad was not enlisted, but was Merchant Marine and on many Liberty ship supply convoys to dangerous places.)

  201. @ Bridget:
    i have read too much about the man in question to believe in Clint Eastwood’s lionization of him. I do not wish to see it.

  202. Ken wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    Jesus chose fishermen. He also chose highly educated Paul.
    Out of these two sorts of people, whom did it take longer to prepare for a ministry?

    Well, I could write one of my comment books about that. I think it took awhile for both groups to be un-trained and re-trained as disciples and disciple-makers. Seminary can be helpful if it teaches people to think well, but it is not helpful if it is 3-4 years or more of indoctrination.

  203. @ Gram3:
    Yeah, ikwym about long responses! 😉

    More seriously, I do not think it’s possible to make any kind of comparison between the situation then, and the situation now, re. formal education and much more. Further, the disciples were with Jesus for several years. Paul did not have that opportunity. I don’t think it’s about their background vs. Paul’s so much as that they were who they were, and Paul was who he was, and that I also don’t think that the years prior to Paul’s being recognized as an apostle were solely about him un-learning things. If that had been the case, he wouldn’t have used any of his educational background in speaking and writing, but in fact, he did both.

  204. Ken wrote:

    People receive information/evidence that certian things are harmful to them, but are so concerned to maintain their personal autonomy and be in control of their own life they ignore it, even if it will lead them eventually to suffer.

    Maybe it is the well-documented fact that people reject evidence which does not conform to what they already believe and want to continue to believe, and they readily accept the validity of evidence which confirms what they already believe or want to believe. I do it, and I know about the phenomenon. I think our brains are wired to think heuristically first. It sometimes takes a jolt of reality to break through that barrier and consider all the evidence. See our Other Discussion.

  205. Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    It is a rare person in the military that I found eager to exert violence if it could be avoided (again, outside a direct combat situation). Please, I ask that our of respect for those who served, and serve, honorably, do not typecast the behavior of military wannabes with that of true military professionalism. I was taught restraint, and a variety of deescalation techniques to help resolve non-combat adversarial confrontation.

    Let me clarify, since it was my original point, that I was not in any way intending to disparage military professionals. The military and the civilian police have different purposes. One secures our freedoms against foreign enemies, and the other secures our persons and our property against criminals. My concern is that those may be getting mixed.

    Numo and I disagree about the influence of the military and about militarization. For me it has been good to see soldiers and sailors honored for their service instead of being vilified and dishonored as they were in the wake of Vietnam. There are military officers in my family, including one who is serving in a conflict zone. They are exceedingly disciplined and desire only to serve our country and protect others.

    Please accept my apology for introducing confusion on that point. I was trying to uphold the traditional distinction between civilian policing and military operations and at the same time express concern about some trends in civilian police forces.

  206. LInn wrote:

    The program had firm house rules, but there was never any yelling or physical abuse on the part of the staff. If anything, the environment was uplifting and encouraging. They have a 60% success rate, and the majority of the 60% are still clean and sober after five years.

    Thank you for that encouraging story and for the work you did.

  207. @ numo:

    Did you read Chris Kyle’s book? I haven’t.

    I saw the movie. I was a reluctant attender. The other three in the party wanted to see that movie. I came away from it hating war and seeing how the trauma of it leaves men and women broken.

  208. @ Bridget:
    I think that your reaction was a good one, though I have serious problems with Eastwood turning this guy into his kind of Lone Gunman Who Brings Justice.

    Chris Kyle was a deeply troubled man who hated Iraqis (referred to them as “savages” quite often), who boasted of standing on rooftops in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina, picking people off, etc. etc. etc. Nobody really knows how many of his stories were true, and of those that were, how much he embellished them. I do not understand (well, actually I kind of do) why anyone would want to spin a mythic narrative out of his story. (You might want to see Chaplain Mike’s recent post over at internetmonk.com re. this. He works with a lot of vets.)

  209. @ Gram3:
    I did not intend to imply that I think vets shouldn’t be honored for their service. Sorry if I gave that impression.

  210. @ Cousin of Eutychus:

    Thanks for your comment. I had NO expereince with the military at all until the early 90’s when my organization was contracted to do some training/strategic planning at a post in our state. From there we worked quite a bit with the Army and Guard over the years.

    I certainly found out my stereotypes of the military were quite wrong. And I fear some here are trying to plant the seeds of violent men who are trigger happy. When in fact, it is quite opposite. And just because someone has PSTD does not necessarily make them any more violent. I was extremely impressed with their use of quality systems/ technology and ended up hiring quite a few retirees or early exiters as trainers.

    Another thing I witnessed was what came off as a natural response for officers to seek the input of sargents or those closer to those front line types. I had always viewed it as strictly top down. Not so.

  211. Gram3, thanks for you comment and clarification. I think that as I get older I am more sensitive to any type of generalizations regarding the military. I simply have seen more honesty and personal honor/integrity in that circle than I have witnessed from church leadership. I am always surprised at those who think that those who have served in the military would somehow be more susceptible to introduction of authoritarian rule. I think it is quite the opposite, in my experience. In my personal circle of military friends, there was a wide variety of political viewpoints, and a natural suspicion of any who wants to exert authority or rule over others.

  212. numo wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    I think that your reaction was a good one, though I have serious problems with Eastwood turning this guy into his kind of Lone Gunman Who Brings Justice.

    I think that’s an artifact of the time. People need tales of heroes, and if we can’t have any IRL, we’ll make some. Even if we have to make one out of this guy.

    “It ain’t about you, Jayne, it’s about what they need.”
    — Captain Mal Reynolds, Free Trader Serenity, Verse Cluster

    That’s also why superhero movies and MLP:FIM hit it off so big. Our heroes have been deconstructed with twelve-syllable words and ironic quips until all we have left are Paris Hilton, Charlie Sheen, and Kim Kardashian. Even the attempted reboot of Original Star Trek (as in going back to Jim/Spock/Bones) is faltering because in order to be “real(TM)”, they cut out the bright-future optimism in a time of pessimism that was the reason Old Testament Trek went from a TV show to a Phenomenon/Movement. Instead we get more of the same old, same old Grimdark/Crapsack/It’s All Over But The Screaming. Like in Interstellar, where the Earth is dying but the culture strongly discourages any attempt at a solution or off-world escape as “don’t be unrealistic”.

  213. Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    I am always surprised at those who think that those who have served in the military would somehow be more susceptible to introduction of authoritarian rule.

    The military could not function, or at least I don’t see how it could, without an authoritarian structure. By that I mean clear chains of command but with commanders who want to listen to what their subordinates have to say. That just seems wise. When it comes to matters of PTSD, I am thankful that at least we can now say that war is traumatizing to veterans. They do a job that can put them in a double-bind. War is not anything like precise or clean. War is a necessary evil, and the ones who put themselves out there to protect us from even greater evil are the good guys.

    There are always going to be a few bad guys who do bad things. We talk about them here all the time! That does not erase the tremendous good done by the vast, vast majority of our military personnel. The same applies to police officers. They seldom get the praise as a group for when things go right, but they are the first to be blamed as a group when things go horribly wrong.

  214. Bridget wrote:

    Did you read Chris Kyle’s book? I haven’t.

    I read about half way through the book and could not finish it. Did not and will not see the movie.

  215. @ Gram3:
    I don’t think that there can be an honest discussion of either the military or war without the clear recognition that war brings tremendous suffering to many, not leadt those who inflict suffering on others, espevially noncombatants.

    The military is preficated on chain of command, which is, by its very nature, authoritarian. I am not sure how it could be otherwise, because it would quickly descend into chaos absent that kind of structure.

    Equally, i do not see how it is possible to avoid the reality that *some* people within the ranks get badly damaged, or thst sometimes the “ggood guys” commit atrovities (tthe My Lai massacre, ordered by William Calley and carried out by those he commanded, for example). The “good guys” can do very bad things, though it is simpler to pin that on “the enemy.” That does make for a simpler story, but it is inherently untruthtul.

  216. Nancy wrote:

    I read about half way through the book and could not finish it.

    Do you care to elaborate on the reason why didn’t finish?

  217. An authoritarian structure based in mutual trust and commitment to an overarching mission is quite different than an authoritarian structure that is personality centered and which demands blind obedience. How a mission is carried out is often questioned with a fair amount of give and take in the military setting (obviously different in a direct combat situation). It is stressed that blind obedience to illegal orders does not exempt a soldier from sanction and punishment, in fact, the duty to disobey illegal orders is part of military doctrine. The comparison of the military authoritarian structure to an abusive church authoritarian structure simply cannot be made to those who have experienced both–there simply does not exist, in my experience, blind trust for military leadership like that offered to church leaders, or a demand by military leadership for blind trust. Trust must be earned in the military setting–an officer or NCO that does not have the trust of those they are to lead often get relieved in short order.

  218. May I say again, as well, that there are obvious exceptions (Calley, for instance, though the massacre was stopped by a US helicopter aircrew who set the chopper down between some civilians who had escaped the initiial slaughter and Calley’s men). But I think my experience is shared by the majority of military veterans that I know.

    I served on an elder board with a gentleman who was a 2Lt platoon leader in Viet Nam. He and I were the least authoritarian members of the board, the others of whom had no military background. I realize this is anecdotal and cannot be extrapolated universally, but occurs more often than I think many would think.

  219. numo wrote:

    My Lai massacre, ordered by William Calley and carried out by those he commanded

    One problem is that My Lai became the narrative for the entire war in Vietnam and a lot of good and productive discussions became polarized into “sides.” To take the Vietnam war out of its historical context is to misunderstand the war, regardless of which “side” one takes. What happened at My Lai was horrific as is everything in war. That is not mean as a false equivalence, but merely as a plea to look at things as they are and not necessarily as what they represent or have come to represent. Maybe I’m too much of a resigned realist and should be more idealistic.

  220. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Doesn’t Scientology also have a drug rehab program?
    Using LRH Dianetics instead of Nouthetics?

    Yes. Reading this Teen Challenge story restimulated a bunch of Scientology engrams.

    Let me just say that churches emulating the cult of Scientology is not a good thing at all.

  221. Bridget wrote:

    Do you care to elaborate on the reason why didn’t finish?

    I don’t remember the details, but I felt that I was reading about a man who had gone places in his mind where it is tragic that people have to go. If I recall there was one description of a mother with a child and he took the opportunity, not sure exactly why, but he had apparently developed such a feel for it that he was reacting before he thought about it. People who are really good at things do this. I felt sick at heart that people could become that good, if that is the word, at what he did. I had to quit.

  222. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And to Count Coup (60% SUCCESS RATE! HOLY SPIRIT!!!) over those Secular Heathen rehab programs.

    Scientology’s Narconon also regularly claims high success rates (like 78 percent). Of course, they’re not based in reality. And apparently like some Teen Challenges, Narconons rely on recently-graduated “students” to staff their facilities.

    There is an attorney out of Nevada named Ryan Hamilton who is taking on Narconon via lawsuit, basically for the same types of things here. (False statements of success, mistreatment, etc.) I’ve read some of the lawsuits as they’ve been posted on Tony Ortega’s Underground Bunker blog. Hamilton’s filed over two dozen so far. He’s got guts, considering how it’s a Scientology belief that the purpose of the lawsuit is to harass and destroy. (Seriously, that straight from “Source”–L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology.)

  223. mirele wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Doesn’t Scientology also have a drug rehab program?
    Using LRH Dianetics instead of Nouthetics?

    Yes. Reading this Teen Challenge story restimulated a bunch of Scientology engrams.

    Up to R6 Bank/Wall of Fire intensity?

    He’s got guts, considering how it’s a Scientology belief that the purpose of the lawsuit is to harass and destroy. (Seriously, that straight from “Source”–L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology.)

    Fair Game Law LRH.
    Then there’s also (the rumored) Directive R2-45 LRH…

  224. numo wrote:

    I think that for all practical purposes, TC provides neither “rehab” or “detox” programs, given its focus and methods.

    Oh. So it’s no different than Scientology’s Narconon?

    This is raising all sorts of hackles and alarm bells with me!

  225. @ Gram3:
    One of my cousins was a Special Forces Engineer in Vietnam, and my dad hwd to make many trips there, carrying supplies. My dad was very pro-Vietnam until he got there, and my cousin drank heavily for decades afterwards. I am not really at liberty to say more in a public forum, only to state that my antanti-communist, WWII vet father was so disgusted by the incompetence and corruption of both the American “leaders and the S. Vietnamese government that he couldn’t get out of there fast enough.

    I went to undergrad with a fair number of Vets, and honestly think that all who had seen combat were troubled to one degree or another. Most of the guys i knew were thoughtful, intelligent and kind…but troubled all the same.

  226. @ Cousin of Eutychus:
    Hmm. I always heard bad things (major or minor) explained away by “I was only following orders.” I was told by my dad and other WWII vets that disobeying an order was wrong.

    Perhaps things have changed since then, perhaps not.

  227. @ numo:
    Should clarify: my dad captained various cargo ships that were chartered by the military to carry supplies to Vietnam. He did the same during the Korean war, and during WWII, he was part of numerous convoys to Scotland, northern England and the Russian Artic Circle ports.

    He said that Vietnam was nothing like the other wars he had been in, and wanted nothing to do with it. i think he went through a serious questioning of most everything he believed in due to what he saw there.

  228. dee wrote:

    I find the argument about God getting the glory when someone suffers [to be a sheep of height]. I suggest that some of these guys … visit home after home of child abusers and see children suffering.

    Biblical evidence of God feeling good, never mind glorious, about human beings suffering is… let’s say… thin on the ground. If there was ever a time when Jesus observed someone suffering and whooped with joy at the glory going to his Father through that person’s suffering, the Holy Spirit seems to’ve overlooked it when he inspired the gospel accounts. God tends to claim glory for doing things. Or for suffering himself – the cross, for instance, is often described as leading to glory.

    There are many verses in the Psalms saying something like “Praise him for his marvellous acts”. There aren’t that many saying, “Praise him according to the childhood cancers”.

    Now, of course, there is such a thing as “grace to endure” – when someone, because they personally experience God’s presence and fellowship in the middle of everything, is able to endure suffering that otherwise would destroy them. In those settings, however, the person themself freely ascribes glory to God for the spectacularly real and concrete help he gives them. For any preacher, with a form of godliness but not an iota of power, to tell someone else, It’s OK because God will be glorified by your suffering, is a sordid and shallow counterfeit.

  229. @ numo:
    Btw, i never asked directly, but i think that napalm was one of the things that truly sickened my father. It was a very difficult subject (Vietnam) for him, so i didn’t ask questions, and he didn’t say much to our family, though i suspect he talked with my cousin (Spec. Forces engineer) quite a lot.

  230. numo wrote:

    so disgusted by the incompetence and corruption of both the American “leaders and the S. Vietnamese government that he couldn’t get out of there fast enough.

    And also the civilian leadership in DC. The WW2 vets to I knew had a similar response to their experiences to the extent they would even talk about it. Truly I don’t know how anyone is functional after war, whether civilian or military. Was any war ever fought the *right* way for all the *right* reasons? We have to also consider the costs of not fighting. That’s all I’m saying. Let’s look at the entirety of the picture and not focus on one aspect of it. You can have the last world, which is uncharacteristic of me. 😉

  231. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    It’s OK because God will be glorified by your suffering, is a sordid and shallow counterfeit.

    It is also perverse and a slander on God’s character, as if somehow he needs suffering of humans to bring him glory. That sounds like anything but the Judeo-Christian faith. Excellent analysis, as usual.

  232. @ Gram3:
    Yes, but i don’t think Vietnam had any high moral purpose behind it. We were not facing the evils of fascism, nor were we trying to provide help to a country that had been devestated during WWII (Korea). i fully believe Vietnam was about expedience and financial interests, and the nature of the conflict put the innocent into the line of fire on a pretty constant basis.

    WWI, though, from everything I’ve read about it, seems to be the ultimate in vainglorious leaders sacrificing the lives of their respective citizens for nothing. Zip, zer, zilch, nil. It should truly never have happened. (Nor should any other war, but that… words fail.)

  233. @ Gram3:
    See, i never believed that we were “ddoing the right thing” in Vietnam, although adults kept telling me that i ought to believe that. There was that whole “My country, right or wrong” thing, and being young, i could see no way to square things other than being anti. The rhetoric of adults made me suspicious, along with the “body counts” and live feeds of fighting. A lot of people in the government knew what a mess the S. Vietnamese government was, but willingly beat the war drums, knowing what they knew.

    Incidentally, some of Madame Nhu’s nephews were running heroin through the D.C. area back in the 80s, and trading on their relationship with her to keep the cops away. It worked for a while, but then they and their smuggling ring got busted. Felt like old times, kind of…

  234. Nancy wrote:

    Here is what I cannot understand. Why do people not rush to get the evidence? Why would they not feel safer with evidence based thinking?

    The study of logical fallacies and other irrational thinking is by turns fascinating and maddening. But I’m afraid I can’t get inside the head of someone who doesn’t want to verify whether something is true, either.

  235. Nancy wrote:

    IMO religious organizations such as this and others must come under the oversight of the appropriate secular authorities. This is not loss of religious freedom. It is expecting religious organizations to live up to the standards of the state, which they should be more than willing to do. If they are not, then they are suspect.

    I totally agree.

  236. linda wrote:

    And I would advise great caution on this site–tar and feather a good organization and the Deebs could face serious legal consequences.

    Horse puckey.
    Mountains of it.

  237. Nicholas wrote:

    If a “faith-based” rehab program is not required to meet the standards of a secular one, then the courts shouldn’t accept it as a place to send kids to.

    Precisely right! It is outrageous that the courts are allowing this sort of place as an alternative, much less that they would push for it.

  238. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    But I do know that a particular AofG I used to be involved in thought that the proper rehabilitation coarse for an adult alcoholic and child molestor (although I am not sure of the AofG was fully aware of that aspect, but still…) was to send him to a Teen Challenge – as a counselor!

    TC once, in its heyday, sent a pair of speakers to one of our nearby public high schools. These guys were touted as being “great examples”. It turned out that at least one of the pair was a convicted sex criminal.
    If the administration had known this, it would have been more than their jobs were worth to let them on school property, much less have them inside a building chockablock with potential victims.

  239. mirele wrote:

    numo wrote:

    I think that for all practical purposes, TC provides neither “rehab” or “detox” programs, given its focus and methods.

    Oh. So it’s no different than Scientology’s Narconon?

    This is raising all sorts of hackles and alarm bells with me!

    As far as I can see, it’s six of one, half-a-dozen of the other.

  240. Pingback: Some interesting things elsewhere (Februari 2015) | Brambonius' blog in english