The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph.Thomas Paine link
Brad contacted me this morning with his thoughts on Tony Jones and Julie McMahon. Like me, he believes that a solution is possible without resorting to the courts. Both he and I agreed that if lawsuits commence, everyone will lose. TWW has received a number of emails from people who have been holding onto the faith by the skin of their teeth. They have expressed dismay that the Emergent crowd seems no different in their response patterns than conservative evangelicals who have covered up child sex abuse and domestic violence when perpetrated by their friends.
Surely there is a better way than tedious meetings surrounding depositions and trials. Someone must take the bull by the horn and do better than has been done in the past many years.
Brad proposes one possible solution. Boz Tchvidjian and his organization G.R.A.C.E. which focuses on child abuse, but has done other kinds of investigations, such as at Bob Jones University. From their website:
Independent Investigations.
Our team of experts and former prosecutors have a combined experience of over 100 years in addressing child abuse. We are equipped to conduct a thorough and objective investigation of abuse allegations and provide necessary recommendations to your church or Christian organization.
Brad asked me if I thought he should change his approach in the following post. I told him to go with what is meaningful to him since God uses our interests in His service. Besides, I told him that The Lord of the Rings series is in my top 5 favorite books of all time. Brad said he felt like Frodo-not equipped but ready to help. May we all remember that we are part of The Fellowship of Christ and we should be willing to travel through dark times and dangers in His service.
**********************************
We will take the Ring …
The Council of Rivendell gathers to discuss the fate of Middle-earth, because the threat of Mordor will affect all races. Elrond has stated the problem, various points have been debated, and finally the moment has come to shift from discussion toward solutions. Yet old contentions between dwarves and elves flare up, the representatives of men are unsure they are strong enough to do this, Gandalf tells them the longer they delay the more the power of Mordor grows.
Unexpectedly, from the sidelines, someone who has been watching all along says, “I will take it. I will take the Ring to Mordor … though I do not know the way.”
This is the moment, people on all sides of the Emergent dispute and those in the galleries. Time to shift from arguments and grievances to looking for solutions. We do not know exactly the way forward – but if we cannot resolve this long-standing set of disputes on our own, within the Body of Christ, then we deserve the labels of hypocrite put on us by many “nones” and of self-centered and irrelevant put on us by many “dones.” And we all deserve the meltdown that will come with our failure.
Here are NON-solutions:
- More of the same, by all sides = no move.
- Give the appearance of peace-making, while actually making none = fake move.
- Lawsuit = bad move.
I’m going to suggest that the best move, given the six-year stalemate between the primary people and the periodic Greek choruses of secondary people chiming in for their sides, is to clear the air through hiring G.R.A.C.E. or agreeing to a very similar process.
Look at what Boz Tchividjian and the team at G.R.A.C.E. does: They go into organizations where there are allegations of abuse, and multiple sides, and where distrust reigns. They conduct an independent investigation, interview witnesses, and create a report with recommendations for intervention and future prevention. The report includes a public version plus some private additional recommendations.
In this situation, perhaps mediation would be a recommendation, but when so many facts and interpretations are still in dispute after at least six years, it seems to me that some G.R.A.C.E. now could go a long way to demonstrating mercy to one another later.
I have been following this situation since I first became aware of it in autumn 2009 and it’s my opinion that it is complicated – but also that it can be sorted out. As a research writer on spiritual abuse and toxicity in organizational systems, I’d suggest if it is not sorted out this time around … well … Mordor wins and all of Middle-earth loses. Do we get that?
Will those on both sides consider this possibility of G.R.A.C.E. to get this off of square one and to the possibility of making peace and not talking peace or war? Unfortunately, the mess that’s been made cannot be sent to Mount Doom and “unmade,” but at least we can see to it there is peace-making in the present and hopefully that will change the course of our future.
Finally, I’m no expert in mediations or negotiations, but I do get the reality that someone needs to choose to serve in order to help break a deadlock.
I will offer to serve on a Fellowship that seeks to bring peace, as best as is possible, to all parties in this dispute. I do not know what that commitment might mean, but I do know that if WE ALL do not take this Ring to Mordor, I don’t think we have the credibility to talk about a Kingdom of righteousness and peace … or to suggest much of anything about a relationship with the Prince of Peace.
Will we take the Ring to Mordor … though we do not yet know the way?
******************
And is it worth fighting for?
It is disappointing.
As I have said in the past, I’ve had a hard time with my faith and it just keeps getting worse…..I wonder if the people who are church staffs, in pulpits, etc around the nation, the world really understand what they are doing to people? Or as I have said, do they care?
Churches using the courts to take care of disagreements really makes Christians look petty….and it hurts the cause of Christ…..but the older I get, the more I am convinced I am better off not in the pews….
K.D. wrote:
So many have said the same thing to me.
Though I know that feelings about the exclusion of divorced persons from the role of pastor varies according to conviction and denomination; this extreme situation highlights for me the dangers of affording them that role when the truth of their conduct within their marriage can never truly be known. And yet allowing them to continue in or to take on a pastoral role seems to be a tacit approval that their divorce is ‘okay’, or even appropriate, while their former spouse or their children might utterly disagree.
I saw this played out close to home in a very similar situation–a minister divorced his wife, and quickly remarried a woman who he supposedly didn’t ‘date’ until after the divorce was final. His wife told a different story about their involvement…but he just went to a new church that believed his story. Is that okay? Should churches be asked to decide which spouse is right?
It is interesting to me that the requirements for a church overseer say that they must be of good reputation to those outside the church. This seems to me to leave open the possibility where a person’a reputation could be damaged even unfairly, and they would still be disqualified. I think a true leader who loved the church would follow Jesus’ example–sacrifice himself for it–and step down in such a situation. But what I see in all these guys like Tony Jones is that they place themselves above the church itself. They hold on tooth and nail and holler no matter how much disrepute it brings to the body of Christ.
I don’t feel able to judge between Tony and his wife. But his reputation is so damaged that I would consider him disqualified from any sort church leadership.
When those who claim to be righteous are unwilling to suffer for righteousness sake, I am suspicious that maybe they’re not righteous after all.
Yes, count me in. All I ever wanted was an admittance of wrong-doing and an apology where apologies are do. I wanted to be heard and I was repeatedly silenced. I received some apologies and I readily forgave those people. Thank you to those who were a part of the Emergent movement and stood up and said that what went on was dead wrong. Thank you, and I whole-heartedly forgive you. I’m not perfect by all means, but I do not have bipolar or borderline as broadcast. My psychological evaluation does detail that Narcissistic abuse occurred, as well as gas lighting which made me look upset to say the least! Instead of helping me, I was met with shunning and the “you’re crazy” accusations. I am not “bat shit crazy” as the Emergent church coined me to rationalize a divorce and cover up and affair and discredit domestic violence. I think the very serious diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is at the root of this mess. I am still stunned that was swept under the rug like the common cold by Doug and Brian. Pathological lying is a hallmark of that diagnosis but his in particular, details “sadistic” traits. I have not posted the psychological evaluations, sex email, screen shot before Tony (as verified by Steve Knight) scrubbed Emergent Village bio of Courtney Perry (who was married too), custody evaluation or my medical documentation from the shoulder tear or other pieces of evidence that prove most of what Tony posted are lies, however I have distributed the evidence that refutes Tony’s cherry picked evidence to key people and that is why they are supporting me. Abuse happened. An affair happened. The evaluation reveals the affair and domestic violence. I may post it all in an attempt to clear my name and sanity. I am not a liar. So, they appear to date unwilling to apologize so I would very much like to go this route to find a peaceful resolution. I forgive you all already but you need to acknowledge the mistakes and abuse that you tried to keep buried for years. It is time for peace and healing because we are all professed Christians but most importantly because we are modeling to our kids how to handle conflict and resolve it.
@ K.D.:
Hmm…I have struggled with my faith, as well. I have had to completely separate from the institutional church to maintain honest faith. In my experience (51 years a christian), the vast majority of pulpit holders (and pew sitters, too) really don’t care. They want to be seen as caring, want to believe they care, but when the rubber meats the road, they care more for the status quo than anything else.
In thinking about it, at least in my experience, the institutional church displays classic symptoms and behaviors of NPD. And my response to that is the same as the response the NPD parent: walk away and have nothing more to do with them for the sake of my own mental and spiritual heath.
It has made me sad to walk away (from both church & parent). I grew up in the church and it is not unlike walking away from family. But when a relationship is toxic, the wisest, safest choice is distance.
Great idea. Definitely time to look for solutions that are about truth, grace and that put the welfare of the kids, without ignoring that of Julie & Tony, in the foreground.
I thought Boz’ GRACE focused on sexual abuse issues. But everything I’ve read of an about him shows solidity, wisdom, compassion, thoroughness. He is def an expert at parsing abusiveness inside faith communities. And he is especially supportive of children.
So if he were willing….and Julie was, and the Emergent bunch, he’d be perfect, although not hip.
Otherwise, if mediation is accepted by all to be of potential value, I’d recommend looking for a mediation group from outside the church. Sometimes the disengaged eye can see more clearly and that might be applicable to this case.
I also think this is a good idea. G.R.A.C.E. is an organization everyone can trust to be neutral, thorough, and godly.
Dee – what do you know, the Courtney blog link is now dead.
Brad – thank you for this (and Dee for sharing). I have had a lot of stuff stirring in my mind when I hear of threats of lawsuits. I may have to process my thoughts in a blog post.
Julie Anne wrote:
You know, J.A., I was just thinking “screen shots” before it goes down. I figured it would. I’ve learned from you!
I think Mr. Klatuu would give a hearty endorsement as well.
…Klatuu barada nikto…
Muff Potter wrote:
I won a trivia contest once by quoting that famous line!!!
Julie Anne wrote:
Let me know when its live. I bet you would do an awesome job!
Julie says she is in. Now, lets see what the Emergent BFFs have to say.
@ Muff Potter:
The peace table is always better than to let loose the dogs of war.
rike wrote:
This was well put. It doesn’t mean that you can’t work to build the Kingdom…just give up the title and work behind the scenes. Trust me…the church will be just fine in that situation.
@ Julie Anne:
There was an especially damming photo Courtney Perry took while Tony and I were still married (and she was still married to Chris Hamilton) called, “Clouds and Tony Jones.” It has now vanished from the internet. It was taken in Dallas, Texas her home town, and Pastor Danielle Shroyer of the Emergent Journey church was in the picture too. They were at a bar/restaurant and drinks were also in the picture.
Julie, go figure. Now you see it, now you don’t. If you didn’t grab the screenshot and it’s not on TheWaybackMachine, it must not have existed. ::::sigh:::::
Brad, how relieving it would be if this does go forward!
I would be willing to help, if there’s something for me to do. I’m good with words, editing, making transcripts from vids, that sort of thing. Let me know. The Deebs have my email.
Julie Anne wrote:
As of now, It Never Existed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_images_in_the_Soviet_Union
With ToJo and his Mini-Mes, NO.
I’ve seen this before as a kid. ToJo Has To WIN, and if not…
“IF *I* CAN’T WIN, THEN I’LL MAKE SURE NOBODY WINS! NYAAH!”
And the collateral damage splashes out from Ground Zero, the more the better.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I have described this past 6 years “co-parenting” with him as scorched earth not a body left standing. I am sorry that you “get it” that means you are a survivor too.
Thing is, Brad/Futurist Guy’s proposal makes a whole LOT of sense.
However, GRACE has shown in the past that they are NOT controlled by any of the parties in the dispute, which for a diagnosed NPD who always HAS to be in total control is intolerable.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
That is part of the problem the Emergent church has never been held accountable to anyone but them selves. They all endorse each others books/conferences/and hire each other to co-adjunct teach at seminaries. It is very incestuous.
Julie McMahon wrote:
Probably am, though you seem to have gotten it a lot worse.
Courtesy of growing up with a younger brother who showed NPD symptoms and could manipulate our parents into running the family for his personal convenience. When Mom died (when we were in our late teens) and Dad remarried (to a tough cookie of a divorced parent who couldn’t take the chip off her shoulder) all hell broke loose between Brother and Stepmother (both of whom Had To Be The Winner) and the family never recovered. Little Brother groomed allies, controlled every narrative outside the family, and could turn the charm and utter sincerity on and off like a light switch. So slick I fully expect him to lie his way out of the Last Judgment.
Ever since, I have usually been able to spot a pathological liar and manipulator. However, getting third parties (who haven’t been on the receiving end) to believe you is an uphill fight. Remember Cassandra of Troy?
Julie McMahon wrote:
C.S.Lewis called it “The Inner Ring”. I call it “Mutual ***** (ed) Society” and have seen it in other contexts (pops up more often than you think in various fandoms), and if you’re not one of the casualties and can step back to watch, it’s actually ridiculous. Admirals in Rowboats praising each other’s Emperors’ New Clothes. If you’re lucky, they collapse inside their own Event Horizon without much collateral damage (though the more power they wield, the more damage they do; in fandom, it’s usually a couple fanboys in their mommies’ basements who can’t do much damage).
I have practiced law for almost 29 years. I would NOT (ed.) want to mediate this dispute, especially with those so called Emergent leaders involved. If Boz wants to do it, my hat is off to him!
Brad, thanks for all the research you have done and for coming up with this way forward. I hope that Boz will accept the challenge and that all concerned will be open to GRACE or another totally disinterested group.
It be something if the Emergents showed the conservatives how to clean up messes in a way that is redemptive and healing and which reflects well on Christ and his church.
Personally, this was such a nice surprise while traveling today!
I've thought of G.R.A.C.E. many times during these discussions. Their mission is child abuse, but they are uniquely qualified to work with this situation if they choose to do so. The multiple church issues involved have clearly affected many people, even though the Emergents would like to keep the focus on the divorce. G.R.A.C.E. mediation would be a real service not only for Tony, Julie and their children, but also for all those who have been participating in these discussions, who have had their faith challenged by what they perceive in previously-trusted Emergent leaders' behaviors, and who have been triggered to relive church community abuse situations in their past. Julie McMahon states above, "Yes, count me in." She is open to third-party mediation by G.R.A.C.E. This shows she is not turning down all mediation. Brian McLaren states he has offered to be in mediation with her but she repeatedly refused. She's all in for mediation by G.R.A.C.E. Will Tony, Brian and other Emergents join her in mediation with G.R.A.C.E.? Rachel Held Evans interviewed Boz Tchividijian of G.R.A.C.E. here: http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/abuse-boz-tchividjian The link to their website is incorrect in her blog; this worked for me: http://netgrace.org
Brian McLaren contacted David Hayward maybe two weeks interestingly the same time an investigation was began at an institution. He asked David Hayward to contact me about talking. Then he sent a very lengthy mostly screen capture if a very distraught 2009-2010 me contacting him for help. He never did help. Rarely if ever answered and once said, “never contact me again.” I believe as the “boss” either perceived or actual if Emergent he should have intervened regarding the news of the very serious NPD diagnosis and abuse. Brian was only interested in chatting 2 weeks ago. Why now? His letter clearly was a tee’d up legal-like affidavit taking zero accountability. I was not interested. Also, Brian has a person who is mentally I’ll according to Tony and Tony said Brian diagnosed me too. Even though we had only meet once. There is a pattern here. A highly dysfunctional one. TJ wrote:
@ Julie McMahon:
Just so our readers know, the TJ who responded is not Tony. I put a note next to the person’s name.
dee wrote:
I need an edit button….typo central on mobile phone.
Hmm…it seems to me that this post and Julie’s response to it have called Mr. McLarren’s bluff. This has bounced the ball nicely back into his court. It will be interesting to see what he does with it, but I hope he (and those around him) understand that his choices here will have a profound influence on the future effectiveness of his ministry. Let me emphasize that it will be his choices that will have that lasting effect, no one else’s.
As to an NPD going along with this, I won’t hold my breath. Unless they have control of the narrative and outcome, they are not interested in participating. My deepest sympathies to Julie and her children. Having grown up with an (undiagnosed) NPD parent and watched a friend go through (and still deal with) divorcing an (undiagnosed) NPD, I understand how hard this has been.
The thing a lot of people seem not to understand about negotiating with an NPD is, you can reach an agreement with them and it will feel and look like all is well. And the next day, they will demand the exact opposite and if you bring up the agreement, they will deny it happened and roll right over you. There is no negotiating or compromising with a narcissist. They have no compunction to keep their word. They can lie and convince a lie detector because they have no moral qualms about lying. As HUG has often pointed out, their only moral imperative is to W.I.N.
I know that I agonized for years over finding a way to reconcile to my NPD parent. Until it finally sunk in that trying to use reason to help a narcissist see what they are doing is a futile exercise. They do not respond to appeals to reason because they do not function from the same reason base that non-narcissists do. There is no commonality of thought process. There is no way to bridge that gap. To the narcissist, you are either a useful tool or an obstacle to be destroyed, and if the narcissist is one with that sadistic streak (my parent is), sadism is used to keep the useful tool in line and useful, but when that tool becomes an obstacle, the gloves come off and they are not satisfied until you have been thoroughly ground into the dirt, preferably done by other ‘useful tools’ while the narcissist sits back and watches, with a smug expression….
@ Julie McMahon:
Hi, if you all are looking to recover some web content,then try the “wayback machine” As long as web bots or crawlers were not blocked,you should be able to find just about anything. I do warn you though,it is hard sifting through so much data. Persistent searches should get you what you are after. Good luck.
David L wrote:
I would like a copy of Tony’s pathological lying video from last week that he posted to CX21PHX. It vanished but luckily my lawyer and the kids therapist viewed it first. He was not “working” when I called him home for a family emergency. He was at the Detroit airport on a layover before flying to the River Gorge to meet his brother (also divorced, 3 kids took it up with his nurse)to meet a fly fishing guide to fly fish together. I did not learn that fact until awhile later a saw a picture and a blog post. He lied. My son was being wheeled into surgery and he said, “I have a contract I cannot possibly come home.” Kids 5,4, and 1 at home.
Ack! I am not Tony Jones! TJ i s my actual nickname, from my initials. Sorry for any confusion, didn’t even think about needing a different online name. I don’t know any of the parties in real life. My comment was based on my own thoughts about the situation as I’ve seen it develop online. My post was a nod of support for Julie because her “Yes” to G.R.A.C.E. mediation shows an openness that is not reflected in McLaren’s statement. To me, it indicates Julie is open a mediation team that is safe, rather than refusing mediation at all.
Yes, mediation with an NPD has all the challenges noted in these discussions. However, G.R.A.C.E. looks at the community and system where (alleged) abuse occurs, as well as abuse itself. This is where so much outcry has come during the online upswell, especially about power differentials between Julie as an individual and Emergent leaders with a platform.
I also hope G.R.A.C.E. might grapple with how a Christian leadership group made primarily of online bloggers and speakers use power and influence among themselves and the larger community, especially when the group has specifically chosen a “flat” leadership structure. Conversely, I’m curious about how people operating as online religious leaders (with little or no personal relationships with their followers) might handle and/or protect themselves if an abuse allegation arises. Abuse can happen online and reading it can be triggering. In this day and age of Internet communities it’s vital to understand online behaviors and their effects.
This system of the Emergents closed ranks just like a church system in real life. People reading the blogs and comments are affected just as in real life. What to do with this? Can we move to a greater understanding and possibly new understandings through G.R.A.C.E.?
Jeannette Altes wrote:
I have seen that smug smile. Sends chills up my back. Tony will never be able to reconcile….no way. I must be destroyed for pulling back the curtain on the Great and Powerful Oz.
A note to Julie McMahon,and others who have had or are currently dealing with someone with a personality disorder.
There is a website exclusively dedicated to this subject.
http://Www.outofthefog.com There’s is all kinds of help,both support,and resources,like books,or links to other helpful sites.
As someone who is still in a relationship with a HPD,I know how bad it is. I had my lightbulb moment after 13 years. The thing is,most doctors wil not make thes kinds of diagnosis,because most insurance will not cover treatment.
To avoid confusion, after this I’m posting as “TC” instead of “TJ”
@ Julie McMahon:
And I finally caught up with all the comments on this situation. It has been difficult for me to read. All of the gas-lighting and abuse is so familiar.
Julie, I want you to know that I believe you, too. My ex-husband is undiagnosed, but probably has NPD. I spent 6 months dealing with abuse via the legal system over custody issues. I cannot imagine the hell you’ve been through all these years since your divorce.
I want to give you hope for the future. My youngest child recently turned 18 and is a senior in high school. While my 5 children and I certainly bear the emotional scars of narcissistic abuse, we are safe now and are healing. Your life will get better after the children are adults. There can be peace on the other side of all this.
David L wrote:
The link is wrong. It’s actually http://www.outofthefog.net/index.html
Julie McMahon wrote:
I couldn’t find the picture—it seems that’s unfortunately been wiped—but I was able to find the blog entry: http://web.archive.org/web/20090208152248/http://courtneyperry.com/pblog/index.php?m=09&y=07
Note: This was in September 2007. Courtney calls Tony Jones “friend Tony Jones” in this post, yet Tony, in his statement, says that he and Courtney were merely “distant acquaintances” until a year later, in September of 2008. Something doesn’t add up here.
Julie McMahon wrote:
Yes. For me, the beginning of enlightenment came one night when I was alone with this parent and they decided to take the opportunity of no witnesses to begin a verbal put down. It was done in calm tones, couched in term s like “I’m only doing this because I care,” and relentless. Continuing after repeated pleas from me to stop. It is embarrassing but also illuminating that even when I was 40 years old, this person could still, solely with words, reduce me to cowering with my arms over my head, sobbing. After about 20 minutes of this, they decided they were done and without a word, got up and headed to the door (this happened in my own home). I happened to look up at just the right moment to see that look on their face. That smug, satisfied…pleased…look. In that moment, for the first time, I realized that they were enjoying this. It still took me years to break free, but that began the processing of awakening from the nightmare.
In your situation, with the children involved, it is not a simple matter of walking away. The courts won’t allow it. And neither will the NPD. I am praying for you and your children to be free of this nightmare. You are not alone.
JoelM wrote:
Is this the correct link, JoelM? I don’t see what you are talking about. Wondering if it, too, was scrubbed.
Julie Anne wrote:
Yeah, that just loaded for me. Here’s a screenshot of it: https://www.dropbox.com/s/v2n4y73obhncqzn/CP%20blog%20about%20TJ.png?dl=0
Pay attention to the text under the two pictures which aren’t loaded (the empty boxes with the “?” in them). Transcribed, it reads…
Scenes from a Sunday evening.
Dallas may be void of nature, but we do have some incredible cloudage. Scene 1.
Scene 2: At The Old Monk, friend Tony Jones, right, counsels pastor Danielle Grubbs Shroyer on the 3 things she will have to give up in order to finish a book she is in the midst of writing. Sleep, exercise, and the third? Well, just ask Tony.
Muff Potter wrote:
“The grass was wet.” Love that flick.
David L wrote:
The link seem to be defunct….
Dee wrote: “Surely there is a better way than tedious meetings surrounding depositions and trials. Someone must take the bull by the horn and do better than has been done in the past many years.”
“So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church?” 1 Cor 6:4
Paul reminded the Corinthians that they already had access to come form of church courts, and should use them instead of the secular courts. We have lost that idea today, it seems. I’m not even sure what such a thing would or should look like.
Wonderful idea Brad!! I believe it would be fair and equitable and far better for the children involved. That said, I am with others in realizing that if Jones is an NPD there is simply no way he will agree to this. He will not be able to control or manipulate the results and he won’t even really be able to use the name of Jesus Christ and his position as a spiritual leader to control the outcome, since G.R.A.C.E. deals with wolves all the time.
Assuming Jones rejects this idea or any other reasonable mediation offer, perhaps Julie should consider sharing her complete story with a major news publication. The RHE angle alone makes this newsworthy. Right now there is so much “he said, she said” going on. A large staffed media company would have the resources to sort through all of the innuendos and accusations to get to the facts, including reviewing psychological evaluations, physical abuse reports, details regarding the ‘gaslighting’ incidents and so forth. That way the public isn’t reading Jones’ personal account or Julie’s personal account. Unsubstantiated invectives like “guano crazy” would hold no sway diagnostically, but an actual psych evaluation would. This could be done without revealing the details of such reports while still allowing a third party to opine. I honestly think this would be in both Julie’s and the public’s best interest because such an exposé could prove Jones is unfit to pastor, plus it could help deter other conference leaders from teaming up with him in the future.
Full time paid investigative journalists review all the facts and don’t publish anything they can’t back up due to liability issues. They have large legal teams to ensure that. Public figure Jones would have no one to sue on this. The findings would probably be as unbiased as you could ask for short of Brad’s idea. This could also draw attention to the overall issue of church leaders abusing their spiritual authority to bully, silence and intimidate anyone willing to speak the truth about them. This abuse is really getting absurd. Again, the G.R.A.C.E. idea is far, far better. I just don’t think it will happen.
Please feel free to rip away. I’m not sure this is a good idea. It might be horrible. It is in no way meant to minimize the imperative work done on this and other blogs. There wouldn’t be a story right now without them! I throw this out because like Brad I know that the status quo is broken and I also know that Tony Jones should not be in ministry.
Steve Scott wrote:
Steve, The Presbyterian Church of Australia, probably the same in other countries, has a hierarchy of Courts of Appeal. Only one problem I was excluded from the Court of first Appeal, the Presbytery, where complaints against the Minister is heard because I am a women. Their Court system looks good on paper that is about all.
Rachel Held Evans should be very supportive of her friends using GRACE to process spiritual abuses. http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/abuse-boz-tchividjian
Julie McMahon wrote:
We can only hope.
But, note the following qoutes in support of Jones ne book to be released March 24:
http://www.amazon.com/Did-God-Kill-Jesus-Searching/dp/0062297961/ref=la_B001IR3E1G_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1422883241&sr=1-1
“This important, smart, readable, and ultimately beautiful book allows this generation to re-claim the cross as the place of God’s deepest love rather than the place of our deepest shame. Jones unlocks the chains of fear and shame that bind so much of Christianity and offers us instead, freedom.” (Nadia Bolz-Weber, author of Pastrix)
“Engaging and accessible, written with the right mix of humility and conviction, Did God Kill Jesus? invites readers to wrestle with key questions about Christianity. I learned something new on every page and will be thinking about this one for a long, long time.” (Rachel Held Evans, author of A Year of Biblical Womanhood and Searching for Sunday)
What’s more important to them?
Steve Scott wrote:
The RCC has a system of marriage tribunal(s) for determining the sacramentality of the marriage in cases of divorce. I once wrote something for a friend who was seeking a determination of nullity of her marriage since I had some first hand information. When the report/ decision came back from the tribunal she let me read it. In addition to a conclusion statement (a ruling) they also listed what they determined to be fault as it related to each partner in the marriage in so far as church law/requirements were concerned. I thought they did an excellent job of understanding the situation within the limits of their jurisdiction/ authority to make such a ruling.
They also have a body of canon law about which I know nothing.
rike wrote:
You could say this about any questionable past.
I think that allegations of abuse should be addressed, but treating divorced folks as second class Christians is not the answer.
This is a great recommendation! Even RHE has been supportive of G.R.A.C.E.
I just hope this does not turn into being about Julie and Tony’s divorce as the emergent leaders have tried to deflect all along. But about how the emergent leaders and fellow travelers have responded to her all along and now publicly. This is a horrible case of prolonged spiritual abuse.
Tony is an NPD and breaking an “agreement” right now. And while he is breaking the current agreement concerning visitation, the emergent/progressive celebrities are posting glowing endorsements of him. I just cannot understand that at all.
Still, it is a great recommendation and I certainly hope the emergent leaders will cooperate.
Meant to say "not", I would NOT want to mediate with this crowd. I think there would be lots of conversations like, "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."
Jeannette Altes wrote:
Always from just enough of a distance that his own hands are never dirtied. Plausible Deniability and Total Innocence all the way. “I. WIN.”
I was all too familiar with that expression on my Sweet Little Angel of a brother’s face. When nobody was looking — when anyone else was looking, it clicked like a light switch into the Appropriate Expression — shock, innocence, or sincere remorse. CLICK ON! CLICK OFF!
Lydia wrote:
I can. Just remember the glowing praise of Comrade Stalin from Pravda & Tass, or the official North Korean coverage of Comrade Dear Leader. A God Can Do No Wrong, Praise His Holy Name!
P.S. And if you praise him more than all the other toadies, he might actually give you a cookie!
What is really bizarre is some of the shunning going on within that progressive movement. Of course it is the social media version of shunning…blocking, unfollowing, deleting, etc. The woman who hosts Stuff Christian Culture Likes stated on her facebook thread that she has been shunned by Rachel Held Evans, Matthew Paul Turner and Pete Rollins. seriously? Isn’t this all rather immature? I think we are finding out who they really are.
JeffT wrote:
Even has the buzzword density and rhythm of Marxspeak or of Roman Senators falling over each other praising Caesar.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Did you ever read the ‘don’t be the first one to stop clapping’ story from Solzhenitsyn’s, “Gulag Archipelago” ?
I would raise one caveat.
No matter who mediates, or who is “mediated” be it just Tony and Julie or the entire emergent village or whoever, no matter who is willing to attend and promises to abide by the mediation, we have a poor track record of living by agreements on all sides.
With this sort of civil mediation, what sort of enforcement could there be? Would child custody issues be enforced? If either Tony or Julie feels they “lost” would the media buzz be allowed to die down anyway, or would some level of cyber bullying or event stalking still occur? If the EV guys are basically told to stand down, would they? For that matter, if mediation found THEY were victims of a smear campaign, would that campaign end?
It is easy to say “I’ll come to the table” but not come. It is easy to come to the table and say “I’ll abide by mediation” and not abide. It is easy to say “I agree to this settlement and will cease and desist my efforts to change things” and then not cease and desist.
So how will this mediation effort be any different than the court decisions for Tony and Julie?
As to cyber shunning people who disagree with you? Reality is we all hang with folks who we tend to agree with. If we feel someone comes in our living room and trashes us, we show them the door.
We have to remember than when we are on the other person’s site or blog, they do have that right.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
For me, it wasn’t the smug smile. It was the morning after a horrible fight with my husband. He had totally destroyed me and I wasn’t sure that our marriage would survive. I was utterly convinced that I wasn’t good enough for him, and probably wasn’t acceptable as a human being. (Of course he only told me those things because he cared about me.) The next morning as I lay in bed, I heard him whistling. The man only whistled when he was in a fabulous mood. That’s when I realized he had gotten PLEASURE from treating me that way.
linda wrote:
@ Elizabeth Lee:
that really is it, isn’t it? You feel like you have been beaten to death mentally and emotionally yet it actually brings an NPD pleasure to have done that– for your own good, of course. That is the sadistic part.
http://www.nakedpastor.com/2015/02/actually-its-cool-for-leaders-to-be-tyrants/
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
This is what people do not understand about PDs. Normal people derive pleasure from pleasing other people. PDs are zero-sum.
@ Nancy:
I’m glad things worked out well for your friend, but please be aware that it might have been the exact opposite if heard in another diocese. There is a big political element to this, and the tribunals are run at the diocesan level. That means that they can vary pretty wildly, regardless of the apparent rules.
I kind of hate to say this, but i know people who have firsthand experience. In one case, a couple was married (2nd marriage for her) in an Orthodox church, as the diocese refused to grant an annulment even though many other dioceses would have no problem in doing so, given the circumstances. The O churches have much more freedom and autonomy in this regard, which is why the couple ended up taking that route.
numo wrote:
No doubt about it, the process is full of pitfalls. But I just want to clear up one thing. I do not automatically consider the granting of an annulment to be a good thing. Maybe so, maybe not. What I was impressed with was their understanding of the situation and their willingness to assign fault. Perhaps their conclusions were right, perhaps not, but I admired the process.
What I disagree with is the popular protestant notion that everything is always 50/50 (six of one and half a dozen of another) so whatever anything is must be okay. I want to say to people, do the math, figure out how often anything at all is actually 50/50 and find some other argument because you (they) are giving me hives. And what I like is that these decisions under the RCC system are not hashed out at the parish level, and they use people trained in the process to write the decisions. For all its problems it is still how one system functions, and that is what Steve Scott mentioned; how would such a system look. And I suppose the answer is (a) complicated and (b) depends on who you ask.
Nancy wrote:
Isn’t that the truth!
Gram3 wrote:
Zero-Sum in a nutshell: “Since there’s only so much to go around, the only way to get more for ME is to take it away from YOU!”
Lydia wrote:
And…NAKED PASTOR STRIKES AGAIN!
Lydia wrote:
Citizen Robespierre (and his distant disciple Comrade Pol Pot) would agree.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
Always so Calm, always so Polite, always so Caring and Compassionate, always so In The Right. Oh, and No Witnesses for Plausible Deniability.
Jeanette, are you sure you’re not a long-lost niece of mine?
Jeannette Altes wrote:
The Angel of Light mask clicked off (No Witnesses, remember…) and you saw the true face beneath.
The best dramatization of that I have ever seen was in the first episode of a short-lived TV series called “Eerie, Indiana”. When the Foreverware Lady closes the door on a departing visitor and the mask of Loving Mother clicks off like a light switch.
I have a personality disorder, anxiety. At one time I thought I was narcissistic (not really knowing what that meant) but have discovered, with help, that I do have empathy. I have discovered a program called “New Beginnings” that makes me feel as if there is hope. There is always hope and I commend DEE and her friends for looking. I like the idea of neutral mediators like Box T. Sometimes it helps just to hear a dispassionate accounting, probably behind screens.
Julie McMahon wrote:
How is that different from other groups, like “CJ’s BFFs”, or whatever they are called?
– never been held accountable to anyone but them selves? Check.
– endorse each others books? Check.
– endorse each others conferences? Check.
– hire each other (at least to preach on a given Sunday, for a nice fee, probably)? Check.
– incestuous? Check.
As soon as a group sets itself up as “special”, different (as in “better”) than the rest, the leaders will always have each other’s back.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
They are very clever about that. There are never witnesses. The last time I was alone with my ex-husband was during the divorce. I was trapped in an elevator with him and he took the opportunity to tell me that it was my fault he wasn’t a believer because I never presented an adequate defense of the gospel.
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
That is as low as it gets. God holds you responsible for me. I hope you don’t have any lingering doubts in this area. I knew somebody once (true story but a while back) whose divorcing husband told her that if she had been more of a woman then maybe he could have learned to “like” girls sexually, but as it was she was to blame for how he was. Same argument: you were not able to make me be okay. What garbage, your ex and hers. If you need somebody to rant and rail against this, let me know.
Gus wrote:
C.S.Lewis called this “The Inner Ring” and wrote an essay on the subject: “The Lure of the Inner Ring”.
“One Hand Washes the Other….”
P.S. In such contexts, I prefer to use the spelling “Speshul”.
Julie Mac: have you been to the “coparenting” forum at BPDfamily.com? They deal w/ NPDs there too, and the suggestions may still help you.
Nancy wrote:
Can’t you just see a three-year-old screaming over and over “IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT! IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT! IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT!”?
Or that song from South Park the Movie:
“BLAME CANADA!
BLAME CANADA!
BEFORE ANYONE CAN THINK OF BLAMING US!”
There is only one thing that can lessen this, and that just converts it from NPD abusive to arrested development/magical-thinking tragic: That he entered the relationship genuinely expecting her presence to magically heal him.
Nancy wrote:
Nancy, thank you so much for the offer. It really means a lot to me. Five years ago I would have taken you up on it. Today, I have no lingering doubts and I have built a support system to go to on the rare occasions when he acts badly and it affects me.
One reason I’m posting so much about this is because I want the Tojo fangirls and fanboys who are reading this to know exactly what kind of person they are dealing with. My ex-husband does not have an official diagnosis, but our marriage counselor told me that he probably has a personality disorder. I only had to do a little research to realize the counselor suspected NPD. You don’t just get a little therapy and become cured from this horrible disorder. These people are deeply disturbed.
I am going to disagree.
I do not think Julie should go through mediation with Boz. If I understand correctly, Tony has not returned a teen over whom he only has visitation rights?
If so, this is a matter for the law and the courts.
While Boz may be adept and able to call a spade a spade, his mediation will have no legal standing and may make legal proceedings harder.
Just my opinion….I’d love to hear from some of our attorney freinds on the matter.
@ doubtful:
This is a two pronged approach.
1. She will be in court this week fighting for the return of her son. Due to the kind donations of our readers, we were able to send her the money to hire an attorney to be with her. If we hadn’t started the GoFundMe-Julie would not have had the money for an attorney. As of this moment, the fund should be able to pay the expected bills for this service. We sent enough money so the attorney would go ahead.
2. The second prong is to encourage the Emergent BFFs not to use a lawsuit to silence Julie. Instead, we believe that this can be worked out in a mediation in which the mediator/investigator does not have a relationship to either party. At the same time Boz has a national reputation for being fair as well as sympathetic to victims.
Sorry, I missed the point that this was directed at Brian, not Tony.
Thanks for the clarification 🙂
I believe the mediation would be between Julie M. and Brian McLaren concerning tbe issues between them. I don’t know why the rest of the Progressive leaders have piled on to McLaren’s assertions.
As far as the issues between Julie and Tony Jones are concerned, they have already been to court on these issues. I agree with you. Tony is breaking the court ordered visitation agreements that he already agreed to!!
I don’t understand why the police department didn’t back her up when she called them to come when Tony wouldn’t return her son when she went to pick him up!
To our readers
Today, I was able to send Julie a large sum of money to pay for an attorney to go to court with her this week to fight for the return of her son. The money I sent did not come out of the GoFundMe account. A wonderful reader directly sent a huge donation to help Julie in the short term. Without this large donation, Julie would have had to go to court without an attorney. There was enough money that the attorney agreed to go to court. The GoFundMe should have enough money to cover the rest of the fees and maybe a small bit left over.
Please pray for Julie. She is willing to allow Boz to mediate since he is so trustworthy. Once we see if the other side will do so, then we will contact Boz on behalf of this group to determine how and how much. We will keep you posted. Please pray for Julie and her children and for softening of the hearts of the involved Emergents.
Bridget wrote:
He is 14 years old and Tony is saying he doesn’t want to go back. Why he decided to do this in the midst of this conflict is beyond me…
@ dee:
But even with him being 14, it is my understanding that another court appearance is needed for the child to proclaim which parent he wishes to remain with. I would think that a court of law would also take into account the NPD diagnosis and what effect that has on the child and the child’s ability to discern the motives of the diagnosed parent.
@ Nancy:
well, to a degree, but bishops and other powers that be tend to bring in yes men for the tribunals in a lot of cases.
the process can be and often is abused, up to and including the monetary costs. And it can be a very painful process to go through for those who have been abused and for those whom the men on the tribunal wish to use as “examples.”
If canon law and the disciplinary system within the RCC worked properly, the sexual abuse problems (which exist all over the world and are by no means a new thing) would never have gotten so pervasive, I’m thinking. And a lot of people would have either been defrocked or altogether barred from any aspect of ministry where they would come in contact with children.
Color me skeptical, especially since I was seeing and hearing about the political aspects of these tribunals all the way back in the mid-70s, often from people in religious orders who had seen the political maneuvering firsthand. (And experienced extremely harsh “disciplinary” measures for other things at the diocesan level.)
@ dee:
Oh wow! what a blessing these people are!
@ Nancy:
mainline Protestant denominations also have structures, etc. for the handling of many bad things. (Abuse of all kinds, other misconduct, etc.) None of those systems is perfect, since all are run by humans and politics are involved, but it certainly is better than what many evangelical churches have – which is to say, nothing, or even less than nothing, in highly authoritarian environments. (Been there, done that re. that last.)
dee wrote:
It makes no sense from the perspective of a reasonable person because it reinforces his NPD diagnosis and gives a real-time example of what dealing with him is like. From his perspective of NPD, it makes perfect sense. He did it because he needed an excuse to stay away from the conference *and* he can cause Julie a lot more grief and money and stress. So it’s a win for him. He did it because he can. If you don’t care about the child’s welfare, it makes the calculus simpler so that what is good for Tony is good to do.
@ Bridget:
What we think should make sense rarely works out that way. The poor 14 year old deserves his own counsel. This stuff gets real expensive.
Bridget wrote:
“These five Kings said one to another:
King unto King o’er the world is Brother…”
— G.K.Chesterton, “Ballad of the Battle of Gibeon”
Gram3 wrote:
That sums it up. Kids are their tools/ weapons.
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
Yes. They are clever. For me, I was responsible for the NPD’s mood. And if they were depressed, I was responsible for making them better. Not a good way to grow up!
Just think of all the online glowing recommendactions Tony has lined up to share as character references despite his NPD. Yes, they count. And they have made themselves part of the problem.
dee wrote:
Because he has to show that he is still in control and punish Julie for being believed. Remember, rationality will not enter into the equation when dealing with NPD.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
Only “I. WIN. NO MATTER WHAT. I. WIN.”
The thing that bothers me most about the McLaren statement and Scribd site is that McLaren makes it sound like the issue is about Julie and him. In reality, he brings up Tony’s divorce and has a bunch of other people make statements about supporting Tony Jones. McLaren is not being above board with what he is saying and doing. He is really putting up a site where a group of religious celebrity leaders and authors can state how much they aupport Tony Jones, another religious celebrity leader . . .
It is my opinion that McLaren is being deceptive.
lydia wrote:
Yes, but they never lived with the guy, and are in his good graces as they support him online.
@ Bridget:
So you think glowing recommendations from such people will be meaningless for Tony? He is putting his ducks in a row including his son.
Bridget wrote:
Is that McLaren’s site? I tried early on to see who had started it (being curious), but I couldn’t easily find out. I kind of assumed it was Courtney, given that the name. “MyTony” seemed intimate.
@ Lydia:
I’m not saying they’re meaningless. I’m saying that in reality,they shouldn’t hold much weight because those people have not lived with him and they are not the ones with a bullseye on their back.
@ Beth:
I don’t know who put the site up, technically speaking. McLaren seems to have the main article and is the one pressing charges.
If Courtney put it up, I’m sure TJ wouldn’t mind endorsing/encouraging the idea. I just wonder how much any of them thought through this idea before posting to it. Since they all posted, I’m assuming they thought it was a good idea.
Bridget wrote:
That should probably say, “threatening a law suit.”
Dee, thanks so much for putting up my prayer request. I’m at my wits’ end. For years now, I haven’t slept more than 3 hours at a time, without being awakened. I finally took my daughter to the doc, after trying *everything*, & they’re sending us to a pediatric sleep clinic. The medication they gave her had side effects, but stopped working well after just a couple of nights.
The crazy thing is, she seems FINE with so little sleep! She’d LOVE to play at 3am! It’s the best playtime ever!!!
My husband is now insisting that I go to a sleep clinic too–but he can sleep through anything. 🙁 If no one woke up to monitor when she goes wandering through the house at night, God only knows what could happen!! 🙁
I’ve spent the first half of the day shivering & drinking coffee. Please pray they can figure out what’s going on with her, for my whole family’s sake. (We have 4 kids. The insomniac is the 3rd born.)
dee wrote:
This is the same thing the ex-husband of a family friend is telling his son. “When you’re 14, you can come live with me…” Dad is an attorney.
I have studied conflict management and resolution, as well as cooperation, at the graduate level. I have been a mediator for more than 40 years and an attorney for 115, so my approach to mediation is less “lawyer” in style and approach than social/psychological. I have also been an arbitrator. My religious background is Baptist for almost 50 years. I would be willing to serve separately or as part of a team.
This conflict may need arbitration as much as mediation. I also think that simultaneous parallel mediations are appropriate, one involving Julie and Tony and the other the active/powerful players on each side. A whole lot of people need to move from accusations to sympathetic and silent support of either or both of the central parties.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yes, I read that many years ago, at a time when I myself was very much wanted to belong to the “inner ring” in my church and movement. Strangely enough, I didn’t realize at once that this essay applied to me and my situation. OTOH, I was 19 or so at the time.
lydia wrote:
In the original custody dispute the court appointed a guardian ad litem for the children. The GAL is usually a trained volunteer thru a court-run program. Their role is to articulate the best interests of the child and for older children to help them articulate what they want. Sometimes, as in my state, the guardian, who is a volunteer thru the GAL program, has pro bono legal counsel to make any legal arguments. Appointment of a GAL for the son may be one good outcome of the upcoming hearing.
Gus wrote:
Correction: when I myself very much wanted to belong
Bridget wrote:
All “online glowing recommendations” for use as character witnesses in court proving that Tony Is Such a Great Guy. “I. WIN.”
@ @XianJaneway:
I’m praying for you!
dee wrote:
The timing does seem suspicious. Between what I just googled and what the attorneys told us at the time, in NC there is no set age in which a child’s testimony can be taken in court (it all up to the judge) but at no age is there any requirement that the judge even take into account the child’s wishes as to what parent he wants to live with. However, so said the attorneys, the local family court judges here had pretty much decided among themselves that trying to make an adolescent (from about age 14) live with a parent he does not want to live with was just asking for trouble and they decided to take the child’s wishes into consideration while still maintaining the court’s authority to make the decision one way or the other.
I know that is just one state and one area, but I thought it was interesting.
dee wrote:
So glad to hear the number of people that are willing to come to the aid of the defenseless.
On a related note, I was just reading Tojo’s post titled “In Praise of Empires” from 10/30/14 regarding the Roman Empire
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2014/10/30/in-praise-of-empires/
This post is worthless as far as anything worthwhile to Christians – you could boil it down to What’s a few crucifixions compared to all the aqueducts.” In fact, this post says more about Tojo than anything else.
“Courtney and I are in Rome this week, compliments of Focus Features and A Different Drummer, to visit the set of a movie based on Anne Rice’s novel, Christ the Lord: Out of Egypt. We are embargoed from writing anything about the movie (yet), but my fifteenth trip to the Eternal City has brought on some thoughts.”
First, it looks like Tojo’s got a first-class booking on the Gospel Glitterati Gravy Train, complimentary international travel and all.
Second, fifteenth trip to Rome alone?! Add that to all the other travel the guy does, nationally and internationally, it sure looks like someone’s living the Kristian Kardashian lifestyle while someone else struggles to pay legal bills to defend themselves from said Kardashian.
The brilliance of the Roman Empire came in many forms, but none so much as its conquests. When Rome conquered a land, they would acquire slaves — slaves that could attain freedom — but more significantly, they made those who were conquered Roman citizens.
Sooo, I used to be free, then I got conquered by the Romans, now I’m a slave, and, maybe, just maybe, I might get my freedom back. How brilliant is that for me!
Along the way, there were some bad apples among the subsequent emperors (e.g., Nero), but there were also great rulers (e.g., Trajan) and even poet-philosophers (e.g., Marcus Aurelius).
The emperors were good guys, don’t let the bloodlust, sexual depravity, and slaughter of Christians by the thousands by more than a few bad apples color you view of such a glorious office.
Sounds like Tojo envies the title Caesar Tojo.
@ Nancy:
The primary and overriding concern of the Court in custody or visitation cases, is “the best interest of the child.” Visitation, custody etc. are set (and modified when appropriate) based on what the Court believes is in the child’s best interest. While the Court has final say in that as long as the child is a minor, in most cases the older the child is and the better able to articulate his/her wishes and the reasons for them, and the more sense those reasons make to the Court, the greater weight the court is going to give the child’s desires when determining what is in the child’s best interest.
I am an attorney but in another state, and not a family law attorney. So the above is open to plenty of nuancing and qualification.
Steve Scott wrote:
Honestly, I’m not sure I would trust a “church court” any more than a secular one, these days 🙁
@ Karl:
That sounds about like how the thinking goes around here. I find it encouraging, actually, that the court is not required to just automatically do whatever the child says. I am thinking this takes a lot of pressure off the kid before his parents tear him to pieces over the issue–and perhaps resent him the rest of his life for what he chose.
Thanks for the input.
JeffT wrote:
The same Empire sitting on the seven heads of the Beast which are seven hills, drunk on the blood of the saints and with a name carved in her forehead?
@ Julie McMahon:
Narcissistic cheaters are a breed unlike any other. There are many kindred spirits at this site. http://www.chumplady.com/
OK, here’s my unsolicited advice after dealing with narcissists for many, many years.
Don’t hold your breath for an apology. Narcs don’t do sorry. Most importantly, don’t do anything that will give your narc(s) ammunition against you, like posting documents. That keeps the conflict going. Conflict gives them centrality. It makes them feel special and oh-so powerful. Stop feeding the troll(s).
@ Nancy:
I agree. But in practice how that works out can vary by locality or even by judge. The practical outcome is often that a teenager gets to decide where he or she will live. Some judges or localities may have a rough rule of thumb that once a kid is X years old (14?) the judge will give great weight to their wishes and only go against what the child wants if there is pretty compelling evidence that it would be bad for the kid.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I can hardly stand to read what little of Tony’s stuff I have, but this in praise of empires is just nuts. I don’t mean he does not have some information, but rather how he uses it. Sure things were horrible in some ways but–the end justifies the means? Is that what we are to take away from that? It seems I heard that in the background.
Or this: “In fact, without the Roman Empire, there very likely would be no Christianity.” He pulled that completely out of the air and then wants to say that thank goodness the old roman empire was there to help God out when he got in over his head with the whole christianity business or it would have all been what? One more of God’s failures? Seems to me, however, that it was christianity that survived and old rome that did not.
Tony talks like somebody with cognitive vertigo, can’t quite determine the margins of accuracy and can’t quite stop spinning (the story) this way and that and can’t tell a tale without trying to control how the reader perceives the story. He is not even good at hiding his tracks while doing this.
And HUG, I do hate how people talk about the RCC based on how they understand the book of revelations. But I am not here talking about that. I am talking about how Tony talks, and his thinking seems held together with baling wire and duct tape while he actually seems to think he has created a work of art out of scraps with slung together ideas.
RHE has stated on SCCL’s page that she would support GRACE involvement!!!!! yay!
@ Karl:
Yeah, but don’t tell maybe. If my grandchildren were forced on the stand and made to declare parent preference, after all that has happened, and knowing the people involved, we would have to have them in professional counseling for a long time after that. It would rip the last shred of pretense away from a delicate situation and it would do so to already traumatized individuals. I pray it never comes to that.
@ Nancy:
Nancy, there are a number of younger historians who actually do make that clsim about the Roman Empire. Am blanking on the name of the principal guy, but Chaplain Mike wrote a post on this topic last year, over at internetmonk.com
I have problems with many of these guys’ assertions, but i did want to let you know that this is one current view and that TJ didn’t dream it up on his own.
@ Nancy:
I would post a link to the imonk piece, but am on my phone, which makes it difficult. I do think the post is wirth tracking down, though.
@ Karl:
A friend of my daughters from our former church just went through this. She is 14 and requested to live with her dad and was granted that. While her brother, 12, was awarded to the mom. I still cannot figure that one out. Scary stuff. She misses her brother horribly.
@ JeffT:
Look, i know that is the typical popular view of the Romans, but it only applies to a few of the *many* emperors. The empire was around for a good while *after* the emperor Constantine made xtianity legal, and in truth, it did spread very rapidly as a result of the systems of land transportation (like the justly famous Roman roads) as well as via maritime commerce in the Mediterranean basin.
As i mentioned a couple of replies up, there actually *is* a move by some younger historians to tie Rome and xtianity together, in a way that i think goes a bit overboard. However, they’re reacting, imo, to the steretype of Roman decadence, whichmis largely a myth. Few people even had enough money to afford “decadence,” and most normal people (shopkeepers, traders, farmers, artisans, soldiers, scribes – and slaves) had the leisure, freedom or finances to live in the manner that is typical of the “Roman decadence” stereotype. Nor, i suspect, would most people have indulged even if they had the money – that kind of recklessness is usually reserved for the ruling classes, and their numbers were relatively small.
At any rate, TJ is basically regurgitating the ideas of others in that post.
@ JadeEJF:
Ditto
Rachel Held Evans wrote at SCCL that she’d “totally support” mediation with GRACE.
@ numo:
Had neither the leisure nor…
@ numo:
I know you are not saying this but listen to what I hear from TJ’s article-said in a different context. Sure slavery in the US had its problems but the slaves were better of here than back in africa. And after all. slavery was essential to building the agricultural foundation of the south and we might not even have the south of today had it not been for slavery.
And there are people who said this. I do believe they stopped short of saying that God could not function without slavery, however.
@ Nancy:
I know, but i kind of think we’re both missing each other’s points, because this really *is* a thing in some evangelical scholarship today. It’s not something TJ made up out of whole cloth by any means. I don’t agree with the proponents of this theory, but the idea is not TJ’s fault, you know? In fact, it’s kind of trendy, which is probably why he grabbed onto iy.
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
I have no experience of such abuse, and I can be pretty snotty since I feel safe. I would be unable to resist saying, “I see. In other words, you are incompetent to take responsibility for your own spiritual life, to do your own homework. Shall I share that with those who assume you are as competent as others?”
Nancy wrote:
Only in the VERY limited sense that the Empire’s internal peace (Pax Romana), common languages (Latin & Greek) and transporation system (Roman Roads and a piracy-free Med) made the spread of Christianity easier.
Nancy wrote:
And Revelation’s image of “Mystery: Babylon the Great” did NOT refer to the RCC (which didn’t exist as an institution at the time Revelation was written). It referred temporally to Caesar seated on the throne of the Empire seated on those seven hills along the Tiber. When ToJo praises the Roman Empire, he’s praising John’s original Babylon the Great — “Who is like unto The Beast”?
numo wrote:
Of course it is his “fault” (responsibility) whether he made it up or whether he grabbed it as it floated by and used it for his own purposes. But the main idea of what I was saying, and say again, is how he says what he says, and how he makes it look like something else with the not so hidden messages that I think I see in this article.
By the way, IMO evangelical scholarship, like army intelligence, may be oxymorons.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Amen to that. Good call.
JadeEJF wrote:
I would NEVER trust a church court.
Bridget wrote:
Ah yes, the blind leading the blind.
Karl wrote:
Since Tony Jones apparently can’t be bothered to return one of his children, then I think that all of his visits should be supervised visits at one of the special centers that does that.
Nancy wrote:
:o)
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
bingo
@ Nancy:
Agreed on that last sentence for sure!
I find TJ’s stuff almost impossible to read, but you should see the matetial on the website of the young academic (the one Chap. Mike posted about on imonk.com). I think it is more outrageous (and kind of smug) than this particular bit of TJ’s blog and thoughts. A lot of these guys strike me as extremely superficial, propounding views that they grabbed from newspaperenewspaper and blog post lefes – without having actually read the material, let alone done any real homework. They seem to want page views and blog traffic, rather than taking the time to write and research thoroughly enough to come up with anything of substance. Which bugs the living daylights out of me. Far better to admit that you got the idea from so and so than making it sound lkke you dreamed it up all on your own. In this case, though, i have my doubts as to whether any such disclaimers or clarification will ever see the light of day.
@ numo:
The young academic who is leading the charge on the subject.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I actually don’t think that’s a limited/limiting view at all, since it’s about the infrastructure for travel, trade and communication. That’s hardly the same thing as claiming that the people who ran the empire were somehow responsible for the spread of xtianity, although after a certain point in time, that is accurate (in that many converted and that when the bosses convert, then the underlings do as well, and so on).
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Or, put more simply, ideas spread via trade routes and trade, since people from all over the known world were (sstill are) involved in trafe, and they bring their beliefs and social mores and culture with them.
@ numo:
The depravity of Caligua and his ilk was only 10 years or so prior to Paul’s writing and was likely the primary reason for Paul’s diatribes against the immorality he mentions. As far the position of Emperor goes, succession by assassination was more the exception than the rule.
I think the Empire’s embrace of Christianity was the worst thing that happened to the church. It gave the church a taste of political power, which only increased as the power of the Empire waned and the church moved into the vacuum during the Early Middle Ages. From then on, political power became more important than moral power and only started to wane during the Enlighenment – a period BTW that many fundies consider to be second only to the rise of the anti-Christ in terms of threats to Christianity.
@ JeffT:
A great book on the subject of church state power is by Leonard Verduin, Anatomy of a Hybrid. A not so very well known scholar.
JeffT wrote:
so true!
Some miscellaneous thoughts at the end of a long work day …
Thanks to all who’ve commented here or elsewhere about this proposal about G.R.A.C.E. Glad to see how the idea has sparked some important discussions on multiple topics. A lot to take in still.
I’ve continued mulling over the idea of Boz Tchividjian/G.R.A.C.E. being involved in the Emergent situation, and the things people have suggested.
I don’t have any contacts at G.R.A.C.E. myself, and don’t even know if they’d be available or if this would be too far outside their mission statement. But from what I’ve seen, their team seems to get it about *systems* and abuse, and they’ve earned a reputation as trustworthy. And they’re also concerned about prevention and not just intervention — for instance, they’ve brought together an expert group to write college/seminary curriculum on child abuse issues. So, if not them, then some other individuals/entities that fit those criteria of trusted, systems-minded, and solutions-oriented through intervention and prevention.
One thing I keep coming back to is that some kind of independent investigation would let all those who want to participate get their evidence looked out, and their account and interpretation heard, without the distraction and dehumanization of an uncalm, unsafe environment. That alone seems crucial in helping defuse the volatility of it all. It also means someone new/not personally involved asking follow-up questions that probably no one has asked yet, maybe because no one has all the evidence on the table to look at. While that might feel scary, it also means getting to the root issues and answers — for everyone.
But then, investigation of information and interpretations isn’t the same as resolution and reconciliations. I’m not sure how much G.R.A.C.E. typically gets involved in mediation or arbitration, or “parallel mediation” like “An Attorney” mentioned. So that’s a whole other layer to consider … along with a lot of prayer and pastoral care. If the parties involved decide to go this route, I have be believe that agreeable resources for follow-through relational work would emerge.
Anyway, I feel like I’m seeing more glimmers of hope, and that maybe the trajectory of what seemed the spiritual equivalent of an inevitable multi-car pile-up can change. Hope all the principal parties involved will consider this kind of opportunity … and that G.R.A.C.E. will, too.
Patrice wrote:
But she said she already underwent a “diligent investigation” and that is why there was no need to contact me and in fact when my friend Danica questioned this her husband chimed in and said that I should call an abuse hotline and even provided a number. I’m sorry I think she sees the sinking ship and now has decided it wasn’t such a “diligent investigation?” How is this not motivated by book sales? I have learned a lot in this ordeal mostly that Christian celebrities are a lot more interested in circling the Emergent wagons and protecting the empire, than an actual victim of abuse. I am saddened to say. Actions speak, and they were all crickets.
@ JeffT:
And consider the timing of the post. It was written the day after he first published his statement (made more public a few days ago), and *at the height of the naked pastor thread*.
I read his empires post as a response to Julie and all his detractors. It is chilling.
Banannie wrote:
It was written the next morning. Yes, chilling.
@ Julie McMahon:
Yes, Rachel has compromised herself. Even her last comment remains mealy and essentially, “pleaseplease don’t bother me with this”. It is unacceptable.
But I have hopes yet. She didn’t post on the “I adore everything Tony” sites, and she is probably who Peter Rollins had in mind when he criticized some for backing off into silence. She is now making it clear, before she’s heard the opinions of the celebrities-that-be, that she’d be glad of GRACE.
Rachel has been a soft person until now and a situation like this makes it apparent. She offers platitudes and has been shutting everyone out/down. It is time for her to grow sturdy and face the evil in her circle. And she might not do it; she might continue on her squirrely mostly-silent path until the crisis blows over. That is a kind of acquiescence to power that is as bad as overt aggression. We will see.
I hope it’s ok for me to feel a little patience with her and also be supportive of you. You’ve been betrayed too many times to afford the hope I’m speaking of, and I certainly do not expect you to feel the same.
Beth wrote:
I just realized that I probably read the site name wrong. It’s “WhyTony” not “MyTony”. I don’t think that first name makes much sense, so maybe my brain was just overcompensating. Anyway, sorry to all and disregard what I said there.
@ JeffT:
Caligula was the exception, not the rule, though.
@ JeffT:
I think the politicization of xtianity is the real problem, not the actual acceptance of xtianity per se. When those in positiins of power became xtians, the church and state were, ultimately, melded, though by no means did this happen immediately, and there was powerful support for beliefs and practice that wrre considered heresies by other xtians for quite some time. Thd history of it all is more complex and nuanced than anyone can ever hope to convey in blog comments, though the fullest expression of church + state merging was in the eastetn part of the empire, in Constantinople, not in Tthe West.
@ JeffT:
Yes, i am only too aware of what many people mistakenly believe about the Enlightenment. (One of the hats i used to wear professionally: historian, though that’s a matter of love for the field, not mony, ’cause it sure didn’t pay a living wage!)
@ Patrice:
I think she might be staring the reality of abuse square in the eyes for the first time in her life. It is one thing to be aware of abuse, quite another to experience it either firsthand or to be close to someone who is going through it.
I have problrms with how she dealt with things initially, but am seeing some glimmers of hope in her corner. Maybe I’m being unrealistic, but i know from 1sthand experience that it is difficult to “get” certain things without being caught up in them oneself. And when the light begins to dawn, people still need time to process what they’re starting to see. I know the intense cognitive dissonance i experienced when treated in an abusive manner by church “leaders” took years to dissipate, so…
@ numo:
Yes, I agree. We’ll see.
But I also understand why Julie can’t drag up patience for yet another person who has harmed her. I was in her place once, and had to leave patience for others to others, because I required all I had to endure my own situation.
JeffT wrote:
I don’t know if it was the worst but it certainly had some bad results. And even in the light of that TJ wants people to think that if the early proto-church said to the empire, I will trade you my integrity for the use of your roads and water from your “well” then that was a good thing for the church to do. Really, take a look at the current situation in China between the churches who cut a deal with that empire compared to the underground church movement which did not. Very different results.
The kingdom which Jesus announced was not designed to share power with the kingdoms of this world. It was/is a whole different thing with different aims and different methods. Scripture says the kingdom of this world shall become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ and he shall reign forever and ever. We all remember that one. That is not about sharing power or compromise–it is about who wins in the end. We really love that with full orchestra at christmas but sometimes capitulate at the first opportunity.
Go for it Tony, say your Hail Caesar. Pity those who do not see through you.
@ Patrice:
I wasn’t referring to Julie re. people who lack patience. And i do understand why people would have no patience.
i dont see these things as being mutually exclusive. If nobody is able to see and think through various scenarios, then there will be even more trouble, I’m thinking.
YMMV, however, and that’s fine.
@XianJaneway wrote:
Not exactly. She sent the message to Stephanie, with permission to post as she “didn’t know how to get the message out there”.
Really? A published author, circuit speaker and popular blogger who also spends a great deal of time on Twitter and FaceBook didn’t know how to get her message heard? Really?
I’m not buying it, and the trust ship has sailed, but I will wait and see what happens from here.
@ KRT:
Are you serious? She knew how to gef the Scribd page out to anyone who had written about the issues in the past two weeks.
Bridget wrote:
I am. I hate to be all jaded and everything, but like I said, I’m not buying it. It smells of manipulation.
RHE was glad to provide a forum for Sovereign Grace church survivor Hannah Ettinger to tell her own story of growing up in SGM and more importantly, to relate WHY her own personal experience led her to believe the accusers in the SGM abuse scandal rather than the accused leaders and their wagon-circling friends from the same theological conference-speaking and book-blurbing circuit.
http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/growing-up-in-sovereign-grace-ministries-abuse
Good for Rachel, for allowing Hannah to tell her important story. But in that case the accused were people whose theology Rachel finds repellent. When the accused is someone who is a trusted and believed friend to many of Rachel’s friends and whose theology is closer to hers and more woman-and-LBGT-friendly (as well as her admiring his second spouse’s amazing photography skills), then all of a sudden RHE’s blog is not an appropriate forum for people to share why their own personal life experience with abuse at the hands of narrative-controlling, gaslighting NPD’s in positions of power, led them to believe the wife alleging spiritual and emotional abuse at the hands of an influential leader in this case.
Other than theological tribalism, I don’t see a substantive difference to explain why Hannah gets a (deserved) lengthy featured blog post all her own from RHE, while Julie or those who believe her get “this isn’t the appropriate site to discuss these things.” Rachel is smart enough that she *must* realize that from the outside, she looks like some of the only-peripherally-involved Reformed pastor dudes who believed CJ Mahaney and who at best, simply wanted people to leave them out of it and not ask them to speak out about allegations about which they had no personal knowledge and which hadn’t been proven in a court of law, etc.
Bridget wrote:
She likely didn’t want to bring this mess to her blog or personal FB again.
Julie Anne wrote:
Of course. That’s why the entire group put their statements on Scribd. Some of them did post a link on their own site that went to Scribd. Rachel didn’t post a statement to Scribd but she did direct people to it behind the scenes.
numo wrote:
Nero, Domitian, Commodus, Euglabius — looks like they had an “exception to the rule” as often as Star Trek V’ger had an “Unknown Space Anomaly”.
Nancy wrote:
One aftereffect of being involved in an End-of-the-World cult with a Gospel According to Hal Lindsay is you become very familiar with the imagery of Revelation. And after leaving the cult, you are then exposed to the imagery as mythic imagery, not as History Written in Advance. Stir well and…
Lydia wrote:
Yes. Not in Solzhenitsyn, but from other sources. I’ve alluded to it many times in comments on various blogs.
And Saddam Hussein’s little enhancement on it where anyone who stopped clapping or screaming praise-phrases was shot before all the others for further “encouragement”.
@ KRT:
She left that comment on the post abt Wartburg. I’m not buying it either, but she made it public, which means she now has to put her money where her mouth is!!
UPDATE: Thank you to all of the supporters that made it possible for me to retain a lawyer for court this morning. It went really well. I had asked the courts to return my son immediately. I believe was take unlawfully by his father for the exclusive purpose of saving his career, and as a prop for a storyline for his video he broadcast to his fans at CX21PHX of why he was grounded from the event.
Tony and his really rather revolting lawyer countered with a motion for Tony to have a change in custody of sole legal and sole physical, and no visitation with his mom. Tony asked it be ordered that I undergo another psychological evaluation, and that another custody evaluation be ordered.
Clearly, this is retaliation for his abusive nature being made public.
Luckily, the Judge has called for a meeting with the children’s therapist and best interest of the child will be served. Not the wishes of an injured narcissist who would like to use the legal system to punish me for speaking and go for my jugular.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I do not think you have really read much Roman history. SEriously, I don’t mean that as an insult, but those people were very much *not* the norm. It is, however, a good (classic textbook) example of the abuses of power, as well as insanity in heads of state!
@ Julie McMahon:
I am so glad you were able to get counsel, Julie, and I am thinking of you/praying for you and the kids.
Bridget wrote:
Just wondering if you have screen caps or other documentation? I don’t doubt you, but having the actual proof to look at (and maybe to be added to Brad’s summary of things) would be extremely helpful. (I am terrible about doing screenshots and/or recalling or noting down specific links, leaving it to the other guy… which is a bad idea, really. So if you don’t have links, I understand, but am hoping that *someone* does.)
Julie McMahon wrote:
This is NPD classic! The horror is having to go this again and again. It is never over. Of course he wants you to re-val. He needs to deflect and buy time. This also paints him as victim/super dad to the masses. I mean what “reasonable” person would use their children so boldly?
He needs to make it about YOU…..again. Well, it worked well last time and is still working for some.
Julie, I pray for you and the kids often. I know that is cliché but God knows I get it and have seen it.
@ numo:
https://rlstollar.wordpress.com/2015/01/30/a-response-to-brian-mclarens-statement/
@ numo:
Also wondering how Deebs found out about the Scribd site?
I’ve never learned the screen shot thingy. I suppose I should. I am usually on a phone. Don’t know if it works via smart phone.
@ Bridget:
you’ll probably need an app to do it, which is pretty much the same n a computer, too.
thanks for the link – read the piece a few days ago, but obviously wasn’t paying attention to some of the details.
@ Julie McMahon:
I’m so sorry that this is a continual drain on you and the children. I have little respect for a man who wanted no responsibility for his children six years ago, but is now demanding everything be reevaluated. If the situation really demanded that a 14 year-old child be removed from your custody shouldn’t the younger children be removed? He seems to be using the system and his children.
@ Bridget:
possibly through FB – ?
@ numo:
Both the articles he wrote were well worth the read and brought up some excellent perspectives.
numo wrote:
Yea, people are grabbing screenshots. No worries there.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
list of Roman emperors: http://www.luc.edu/roman-emperors/impindex.htm
And hey, it’s been a while since I read this stuff myself, so I’m not nearly as up to speed as I might have sounded above. Apologies for that; I came on too strong.
@ Julie Anne:
i know; it’s just that I wish I’d done it in other case entirely, having nothing to do with church abuse. Too late now, though.
@ Bridget:
yes. I was focused on his discussion of suicidal ideation, and kind of forgot about the lead-in (where he says he received an email from RHE with link).
@ Bridget:
Scribd links all over twitter. I got the feeling specific people were targeted who would send them out. that seems to be the same sort of game Rachel held Evans was playing with stuff Christian culture likes Facebook page.
Julie, So glad to hear that positive report of your court appearances yesterday and the financial aid gift that made it all happen. So thankful for that!
My how predictable this behavior seems to work itself out. Bold, obnoxious, and calculated. It is no longer surprising, but same ol’, same ol’.
Trusting that your son recovers from the intensity of having to unexpectedly ‘hang out’ with his dad.
Yes, ain’t ‘timing’ everything!
Support and prayers across the miles!
I grew up fundy in the 70s/80s before passing through the more liberal world and then on out the door in the 90s. What relief, what freedom but what a sense of utter lostness and wasted decades. But gradually you just learn to live in the world and find love and goodness where you find it. After a long time “no contact” I’ve lately been trying to make sense of my journey through the experiences of others, and lurking here for some time and on other like-minded sites.
The TJ/RHE and MD situations were totally new to me, but I confess to a strange fascination with both, as a window into worlds I used to inhibit, and a reminder that I am/was not alone in finding these kinds of attitudes from leaders so oppressive (even though I never experienced any outright abuse). I have to say it is greatly encouraging to see the forthright discussion here and a community “humbly fumbling” its way to (what seems to me) a deeply moral position.
There are millions of messy divorces out there, but the subtle and not so subtle “spiritual abuse” and outright hypocrisy in this situation absolutely deserve calling out and all the persistent pressure you are bringing to bear. This guy is a regular Henry VIII – knew his behaviour was not aligning with his “faith” but rather than just leaving the faith behind has tried to reshape it and spin it to exonerate himself. NPD indeed. There are so many cases like this that have gone under the radar in the past. I think also of one briefly alluded to on the Naked Pastor mega-thread involving the ex-wife of Wolfgang Fernandez.
In reading about this TJ story, and some of the recent “documentation” I find myself agreeing with many of you. I now have a deep distrust of any form of celebrity Xianity as I believe the public image becomes the central concern of these people. You just have to look at TJ and RHE publicity shots – they might as well have a caption saying “am I cool or what?”. I don’t want to hear about someone’s fifteenth trip to Italy or have the fact that they actually cook occasionally (!) mentioned in support of their character. Ultimately, as many have said, it is all about preserving the money and the reputation, and the powerful closing ranks on the weak. Assuming we have any real idea what Jesus was like, what could be less like Jesus than that?
Julie McMahon wrote:
Yah, no surprise there. Not even “I’d like more time with my children,” but “lets throw her out altogether cuz I just knnnooowwww she’s sicker than I am”. Typical.
Bah
Glad that you could do it properly w/lawyer and that it went well.
@ Julie McMahon:
Good, encouraging news.
I am praying for you and your children. I know this court stuff is expensive and mentally exhausting. May God provide you strength and resources to endure it, and may the light of truth shine in the darkness.
An Attorney wrote:
Typo, 15 not 115, and mostly family law, with some about abuse in churches.
girasol,
Hi and Welcome! Glad that you have decided to break your silence and to share your thoughts with us here. You have a great kick-off comment! Well stated.
I like your insightful comment: “I have to say it is greatly encouraging to see the forthright discussion here and a community “humbly fumbling” its way to (what seems to me) a deeply moral position.”
Exactly. I hope that you drop in again soon with another comment based on your own experience and some clear thinking around these varied and sticky topics.
girasol wrote:
This is exactly right.
girasol wrote:
Welcome, girasol!
In case you need a good laugh A Statement by Jeff Breakfast in *Support* of Tony Jones.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/1015097351851563/
Patrice wrote:
And he is the one who has admitted to NPD. He sure acts like one, too.
Bridget wrote:
Since we have been around for a few years, people tend to send us links.
@ Dee:
Hardest I laughed all day.
Karl wrote:
I agree with you with one addition. Those in the tribe also do the books/conference thing. Money s probably ties up in the mess somewhere.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I started laughing when I attended a mega church recently. The stage decorations, besides the obligatory fog machine and HD screens involved a decorative thingy that looked like the Crystalline Entity encroaching on the pastor. I snorted throughout the service.
@ Patrice:
I am really hoping that our foray into this situation as well as the IFB helps people to see that we are equal opportunity offenders. We tend to focus on the little guy going up against a powerful tribalism and it doesn’t matter to us what the theology is of the person going after the victim.
Dee wrote:
TWW – Going after the rotten fruit no matter what tree it comes from.
Karl wrote:
She should also be smart enough to know that she is supporting someone who just tried to separate Julie from her son, permanently. How can she (or Brian McLaren, or anyone else on team Jones) not see this as horrifying? Will they not reconsider, or do they think Julie so horrible that she should lose custody of her son? The mind boggles.
RHE et al.- do right while you still have the opportunity!
Dipteran wrote:
Is is a bit ODD he only wants to save the one child from the “bat shit crazy unfit mother” apparently okay with sacrificing the other two. This is his 4rd run at a custody flip since 2008…..it gets old. Since 2008 I have only had 3 months where there was not a motion pending or some legal matter brought on by Tony. He is OBSESSED with destroying his narcissistic target….me. It hurts the kids. DEEPLY. I have begged Doug Pagitt (the only person I think could get through) to make the nightmare stop for my kids. No one is Tony’s life holds him accountable for his untreated mental illness, or the litigation madness….no one….and they just enable.
Dee wrote:
Where he writes: “….we should…frown and wag our finger at public opinion, until public opinion sides with what all the people who have lots of twitter followers are saying, which is essentially this: what you call suicidal ideation, I call poor sportsmanship.”
If I knew where this guy was pastor, I’d make sure to drive by it now and then. 🙂
Dee wrote:
Yep, you two will poke anything with a sharp stick. Not an exceptionalist bone in your bodies.
That’s what we love about you.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/02/why-we-need-to-talk-about-narcissism-tony-jones-edition.html#disqus_thread
numo wrote:
I think we agree. Empathy doesn’t mean agreement but taking the time to understand.
And thinking through possibilities is something that most PTSD-type people are good at, since they’ve had to learn to steer away from trouble-coming during the dreadful times. That skill can be put to good use.
@ Julie McMahon:
My deepest prayers are for your kids, esp your oldest (I was too) who must be sooo confused right now.
Julie McMahon wrote:
As a parent myself this is what really gets me. Julie, you’re in my thoughts and prayers.
Dipteran wrote:
All I have ever wanted, wished and prayed for my kids is for them to experience peace between their parents. I can only control my side of the street and I have had to let go of trying for reconciliation. My attempts are spun as harassment. I have been silenced.
@Julie McMahon
I don’t think it’s a bit ODD. Isn’t this the star hockey goalie he’s been bragging about on the Twitters? Makes him look good.
@ Patrice:
Ha! He’s Stephanie Drury’s husband, David Drury. If you’ve seen the docu Holy Rollers, you’ve seen him and his card-counting team.
girasol wrote:
Wow. You are so right! I read this post & thought, “That;s why it sounds like the ‘same old,same old’; it’s right out of the history books!”
Dee wrote:
That’s why I like it here. 🙂
Nancy wrote:
Once upon a time, when I was very young (20-something), my mom & I gave evidence in such a procedure. We were both very impressed by the way it was carried out–There was a real attempt at reaching an understanding of the people involved, not just a gathering of legalese words. My mother said then, that she wished there were more people involved in marital disputes, who genuinely wanted to understand the hearts & minds of those involved.
Its not a perfect system, but its a system–which is more than the rest of us have to work with.
Okay- I realize this is kinda silly, but it made me laugh harder than anything I’ve seen in a week. And maybe it carries some good truth about cliques and cronyism?
http://vimeo.com/118663368
Julie Mc Mahon I have had sleeping disorders for say, since I was six after I got burned severely and spent a year in the hospital. I started having the burning in hell dreams which were really intensified when I was introduced to dispensationalism and rapture folks. I always think I will be one of the ones left behind, I take the mark, and then Jesus judges me and sends me to hell to be tortured for all eternity for His Glory. I no longer have the night terrors where I wake up running around the room slapping my skin trying to put the fire out. What helped me was cynicism and a very refined BS meter, a gift from my mother. But what has helped me the most, those worship video’s and soft music with encouraging bible or other verses being read out loud with soft music.
This is more for adults I dont know how well it would work for kids, sitting in one chair and having an empty chair next to me and I start telling the “person” in the chair things I am believing that are not true about me, God, other people etc. Physical exercise, healthy eating, warm baths, and meditation. One time, after I heard Fred Phelps got the boot from his crazy family because he was no longer crazy enough, I printed out a picture of him hung it up on the wall and said, I forgive you, I forgive you, I want to understand your anger, I forgive you. I tried doing that with Shirley Phelps but found myself throwing darts at it. I am a work in progress.
My point, again I dont know if this works but putting a picture of the event, person etc that one is really mad at say on the computer screen and forgiving, not forgetting or justifying but taking away their power by forgiving them. I hope that makes some sense. I have gone from say, two to three hours of sleep over a few days, I think my longest nonsleep is about a week. Now I am actually sleeping 4-6 hours this last two months that is a miracle for me.
I am sorry for what you and your children suffered I am sorry for your frustration.
Tony if you read this, Grow up.
I was an insta parent at 19 or 20 years of age. My sister, I never faulted her for this took off and left her young baby with us. I had about 1/2 hour to decide and 16+ years later I was still there, at the drop of a hat and no matter what I was there. Because I was not a “real” parent, I was a legal guardian but I was not a biological father so I had all economic and legal responsibilities no real rights. I was there and never, not one time, ever was I not there and it cost me which I dont mind. Of course in my faith community I was reminded that I should abandon my slut sister and “illegitimate” (what ever that means because if one pushes the issue Jesus was illegitimate): nephew for Jesus. I stayed with my blood, because if I did not I should burn in hell and I would willingly strike the match. All that doctrinal clap trap, Tony’s or Mark Driscoll it dont mean spit if it does not yield a person who will walk with the “mud” people. It is all just utter nonsense and basically dishonors the Lord Jesus. My nephew did not go into the Jesus industry, thank God, he walked his own path in humility. Good for him.
Tony I dont know you but on my face reach out to your ex wife and seek reconciliation. What a powerful happening that would be, it would be a God moment.
I am cynical and at times often very arrogant and prideful. But then I meet my students and I am brought back to a real spirituality and on my face I repent. God forgive me my sins for what I have done and what I have failed to do, forgive me for my weakness and arrogance which is weakness. Dear Lord I “believe” in evolution and in an old earth cosmology, I include these in my prayer because I have been spiteful to those of the faith who do not hold to this view and I have arrogantly mocked them in my high mindedness and I am sorry. I am sorry that I have been judgemental to those that are conservative or Calvinist in their perspective. I am broken yet you restore. I also confess to you my brothers and sisters in what I have done and what I have failed to do. All I know is this, Dear Lord Jesus restore and heal this relationship. Heal all of our relationships, you healed mine with my family, I got to watch my family pass with peace and also many of the students I worked with. I have watched so many die, some not so peaceful. I love you Jesus, thats about all I have to offer you and even that comes from you. Amen.
Dee wrote:
That was frickin hilarious. Perfectly pitched. I’d love to hear him & Sergius adlib about…well, most things probably.
@ Beakerj:
Watch this one also –
Banannie wrote:
@ Beakerj:
Watch the vimeo two comments before yours.
Libby Anne, “Love, Joy, Feminism” at Patheos, has put up three perceptive posts in a row. She has a thoughtful commenting community as well:
Why We Need to Talk About Narcissism: Tony Jones Edition
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/02/why-we-need-to-talk-about-narcissism-tony-jones-edition.html
There Are No Good People, Only Good Actions
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/02/there-are-no-good-people-only-good-actions.html
Bill Gothard Was Brought Down by a Blog: Thoughts on the Proper Channels for Abuse Allegations
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/02/bill-gothard-was-brought-down-by-a-blog-thoughts-on-the-proper-channels-for-making-abuse-allegations.html
KRT wrote:
I need to correct what I said. Initially Rachel DID send the word out via Stephanie saying that she didn’t know how to get the word out.
In another thread later on, she DID come back and state that she would be in favor of GRACE aiding in mediation. It was in a separate place and kind of buried, so I missed it.
I mean on her own, posting using her own profile, and not sending it via someone else, feigning ignorance on communicating to the masses.
@ TC:
Given Tojo’s NPD and after reading hiss post “in Praise of Empire’s” glorifying the Roman Empire, along with his tile of Theologian-in-Residence at Solomon’s Porch, I think he comes off as some sort of modern day Philosopher-King wannabe.
brian wrote:
Brian, THAT is THE WORST case of “Left Behind Fever” I have ever heard of. And I say that as a Late Cold War-era veteran of The Gospel According to Hal Lindsay and Christians For Nuclear War.
girasol wrote:
And for the very same reason — to get a divorce so he could marry his nookie on the side. Does Spiritual Wife Courtney Perry remember what happened to Spiritual Wife Anne Boleyn?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a0cFYa5Ffw
girasol wrote:
That anything like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39YUXIKrOFk
Or this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_O7aM0J3CI
doubtful wrote:
Mediation would work only if both parties are willing to compromise. The mediation process can break down if it doesn’t go in the direction either one or both of the parties envision. Either party can try to come out “smelling like a rose” by claiming the other party was being unreasonable. From another post, I understand that Julie has already spent $500,000 and Tony may also have spent a huge amount of money. This seems to suggest that they are in it for the long haul.
I have linked this discussion to a fb discussion. We support the solution that is emerging 😉
It is the whole silence the messenger routine that so many have experienced. Always the question: “Why do our leaders want us to be silent?”
David Hayward clearly reaffirms his position in his post today:
“So for me it is about the privilege and abuse of power, plain and simple, and how it marshals all of its fathomless resources to silence all those who question or criticize it.”
http://nakedpastor.com/2015/02/why-do-our-leaders-want-us-to-be-silent/
jim wrote:
Continue to pray!
@ Joe2:
I continue to be confused about this. I thought it was mediation with McLaren who threatened to sue her.
she has had court with Tony.
Lydia wrote:
It sounds to me like there are two options being discussed. One is third-party mediation between Julie and Brian and maybe other Emergent leaders, and that would be the affected parties addressing the conflicts between them with trained help. The results may or may not be shared, depending on what is agreed.
The other is a third-party investigation, like GRACE does, where someone comes in and investigates the situation and released recommendations based on that. Some of the recommendations might be public and some, private. They would interview different people, but I don’t think they would do it in terms of trying to mediate an agreement – more in terms of trying to get to the bottom of the allegations and then giving their conclusions and maybe recommendations for going forward.
So in that case, they might look into how Julie and the Emergent leadership treated each other, whether allegations made both ways were appropriate, and what might be done to move forward. I don’t know if they would get into specific abuse allegations between Julie and Tony.
Lydia wrote:
It seems the possibilities depend on who is willing to participate. What “An Attorney” suggested upstream in this thread was “parallel mediation” as a possibility – Julie with Tony being one component in that mix, and Julie with Brian McLaren and others as another.
I know there are a lot of doubts and concerns being voiced about whether Tony would ever consent to the kind of investigation G.R.A.C.E. represents and also mediation. So with parallel mediation, it would seem some kind of process could go forward with the other set of principal parties and Julie, without Tony’s being able to deflate that option by his lack of consent.
Also, I still struggle with understanding the differences between mediation and arbitration, but there may be something there about it binding obligation that could strengthen the resolution process and implementation of recommendations from a G.R.A.C.E.-type investigation. (I’m still being tentative about G.R.A.C.E.’s involvement, as nothing official has happened, at least not as far as I’m aware. And solutions don’t necessarily all fall apart if they’re not involved. The process of moving toward progress was a key element in the proposal, plus the importance of promoting an independent investigation where — finally — some team views as complete a set of “evidence” as can possibly be compiled, and relevant people get interviewed by those with expertise in that plus sensitivity to survivors of various types of abuse and conditioning.)
Barb Orlowski wrote:
Naked Pastor gets leaned on by the Tonybots.
Naked Pastor responds with both barrels.
Naked Pastor does not take crap from anybody.
Naked Pastor = Honey Badger?
Has Courtney Perry Jones’ ex-husband ever commented about his experience of Courtney and Tony’s getting together?
Tony’s published statement claims that he and Courtney were just “distant acquaintances” until mid/late 2008 while evidence seems to indicate they were at least good enough friends for Tony to celebrate Courtney beginning to blog in early 2007. Julie says she has additional evidence otherwise including suggestive email comments. She also said Doug Pagitt’s initial reaction upon being told by her about Tony/Courtney was not one of shock but of outrage, that he had asked the 2 of them what was up and had warned them to be careful – and I believe Julie’s version of all of that. But it would further clarify things for those unsure or those who still buy Tony’s story if Courtney’s ex has ever spoken confirming Julie’s version of the timing.
Not that he owes it to anyone to do that or should be dragged into it if he wants nothing to do with it. But I’m wondering if he ever told his story and experience of his divorce and how it squares with Tony’s version. I wonder for example if he and Julie ever compared notes after their ex’s had gotten together.
Karl wrote:
GOOD QUESTION.
He seems to be the only principal in this we HAVEN’T heard from.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
In mediation, the third party works to get the two sides to get to come to a mutual agreement. In arbitration, the arbitrator hears both sides and issues a ruling – depending on the structure agreed upon beforehand, the ruling can be either binding or non-binding on the parties.
Karl wrote:
I contacted Chris Hamilton then (2008) and now remarried (I presume) and new baby. No response.
Has there been any word from Tony about the offer for GRACE investigation?
Pingback: Suggested Readings on the Jones/McMahon Controversy | R.L. Stollar //// Overturning Tables
Nancy wrote:
Don’t forget to do it properly:
Bend the knee, burn the pinch of incense, intone “Caesar is LORD”, and receive your Mark of loyalty.
(Domitian, Emperor at the time Revelation was written, was said to be the one who ordered visible Marks given to those who passed said loyalty test.)
Speaking of which, Tony’s a POLICE Chaplain (“Code of the Blue”), just like Bob Greiner, Mini-Moses of Calvary Chapel Visalia (which has also been featured here on TWW). And Greiner was reported to have cop friends in uniform pack the courtroom when he appeared in an obvious intimidation move. The judge didn’t buy it. Judges can be touchy about that sort of thing.
JeffT wrote:
That was Very clear — thanks JeffT!
Even if you removed all the accusations and wiped them away, that Tony Jones left his wife and three kids for a much younger women disqualifies him, in my mind from any credibility as a Christian Leader. If his wife was, in fact, mentally ill, the Jesus following thing to do, the Hosea following God thing to do, the humble thing to do, would have been to stay with her and help her through it and be their for his kids. Anything less paints him as unqualified to be a Christian (Christ following) leader. My take on divorce is the ONLY reason a Christian gets divorced is due to the actions of the spouse a) leaving you, b) harming you if you remain. And, if it is abusive, you fight tooth and nail for the kids, to protect them. No evidence any of this occurred. Remarriage is verboten as long as your spouse lives (some would argue if they remarry that frees you up, but I don’t think Julie remarried before Tony did, so he technically committed adultery with her.
If that sits poorly with Christians, then perhaps they aren’t quite ready for Christianity? and certainly not fit for leadership. Writing a book on Spiritual Marriage (or whatever) trumping legal marriage doesn’t lend much support to his case (since The Apostle Paul insisted Christians take their worldly obligations, including marriage, seriously).
I love the double standard Tony falls into here – it is wrong to divorce (write a book to make that truth disappear), it is wrong to take a fellow Christian to court (suddenly Julie is a problem because she won’t reconcile the “Biblical Way”). Well, to avoid court one should first avoid Divorce. Duh.
Finally, a similar (although not the same) situation has been occurring in Canada. A famous radio host on CBC’s Q (who was formerly a Rock Star and before that a Student Union Leader at a large University) was fired from CBC. He jumped onto Facebook to inform his fans he had been maligned and unjustly accused of “kinky but consensual sex”. However, in the following weeks and months it became clear it was anything but consensual. He had been a champion of feminism. York University had a “women’s lounge” I guess so women could feel safe? and the only male allowed in was Jian Gomeshi – because he was an avid feminist who minored in Women’s Studies. He went on to Rock Star fame and later was hired to host an Arts and Entertainment program. All the while, using his fame to get dates with women, beat them up, then drop them like hot potatoes when the protested. He never got called out, had a toxic work environment, but nobody ever thought he could be a rapist/sadist. He was a male feminist, a star, a “great guy”. Now he is charged and more and more victims are adding their names to the charges. But when this first broke, the number of avid feminists in our country who jumped to his defence was staggering. Luckily, his sexual escapades reached to other famous actors and one of them spoke against him opening the floodgates and seriously undermining his credibility. But it took her 10 or so years to come forward (Canada has no time limit on abuse reporting).
The race to defend Tony Jones seems premature at least, he may be correct, but the optics are suspicious and his buddies aren’t offering up much proof, just gushing accolades or ducking the hard questions – like please compare court documents to statements made and provide links sort of proof. Since Canadians have all watched the Jian Gomeshi case unfold (he hasn’t yet gone to court, so it may go nowhere), like a train wreck over the past few months, it is no surprise Canadians have distanced themselves from declaring Tony Jones is innocent because he has large following. Jian Gomeshi had popular (secular) feminist ideals, and a idolized public persona, but a media figure is just that, a media figure, in real life people can look a lot different, and a husband (or wife) can be a very different person away from the public eye, behind closed doors.
@ Rob:
Some steps are being made on both sides.
Val wrote:
I’m having difficulty understanding how the phrase “for a much younger woman” is used in your test in determining whether he has credibility as a Christian Leader. Would your conclusion be different if he had left his wife and three kids for a much older woman?