Sean: Growing Up in an Evangelical Free Church Youth Group

“Everyone thinks you make mistakes when you're young. But I don't think we make any fewer when we're grown up” ― Jodi Picoult link

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap141109.html
Cat's eye.

A few of our readers have wondered how the Evangelical Free Church fits into the NeoCalvinist movement of the past decade. We have been waiting for a personal story that could give insight into what is stated and what is practiced. One of our readers, Sean, will be sharing his story, first as a child and then as an adult in an EFCA church. I think this story will be helpful to parents and those who work with children in church settings. It will also be beneficial for those who haven't been able to put into words their difficulties in youth programs. We would love for our readers to share their personal experiences.

History

 For simplicity, this summary is provided from Wikipedia:

The Swedish Evangelical Free Church formed as the Swedish Evangelical Free Mission in Boone, Iowa, in October 1884. Several churches that had been members of the Swedish Evangelical Lutheran Ansgar Synod and the Swedish Evangelical Lutheran Mission Synod, along with some independent congregations, were instrumental in organizing this voluntary fellowship. In the same year, two Norwegian-Danish groups in Boston, Massachusetts, and Tacoma, Washington, began to fellowship together. By 1912, they had formed the Norwegian-Danish Evangelical Free Church Association. The Swedish and Norwegian-Danish bodies united in June 1950 at a merger conference held at the Medicine Lake Conference Grounds near Minneapolis, Minnesota. The two bodies represented 275 local congregations at the time of the merger.[2]

The EFCA shares some early ties with those who formed the Swedish Evangelical Covenant Church. It has been a member of the National Association of Evangelicals since 1943, the year after that organization was formed.

Basic Beliefs

In its Statement of Faith, the Evangelical Free Church of America

  • affirms the authority and inerrancy of the Bible; the Trinity;
  • atonement through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ; 
  • original sin; Christ as head of the church and the local church's right to self government;
  • the personal, premillennial, imminent return of Christ; t
  • he bodily resurrection of the dead;
  • and the two ordinances of water baptism and the Lord's Supper.[3] 

In addition, the church claims six distinctives:[4]

  1. Believer's church—membership consists of those who have a personal faith in Jesus Christ
  2. Evangelical—we are committed to the inerrancy and authority of the Bible and the essentials of the gospel
  3. Embraces a humble orthodoxy in partnership with others of like faith
  4. Believes in Christian freedom with responsibility and accountability
  5. Believes in both the rational and relational, i.e. the head and the heart, dimensions of Christianity
  6. Affirms the right of each local church to govern its own affairs with a spirit of interdependency with other churches

Here is a link to EFCA website which lists their beliefs and structure in great detail.

Is ECFA Reformed?

Yes and no. 

According to Michael Horton: Not historically. Question for our Reformed readers. Does being dispensational mean that you cannot be Reformed? Horton appears to make this implication.

In the 1800s revivalism and frontier individualism led to an explosion of cults and sects. Self-proclaimed "prophets" drew many people away from traditional Protestant churches and many of these are now established groups: the Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ, Cumberland Presbyterians, and a host of Pentecostal groups. Pietistic groups (mostly of Lutheran descent) added divisions to the ranks. They came to believe traditional Protestantism lost its first love by emphasizing doctrine. These includes the Brethren denominations, Free Churches (Evangelical Free, Evangelical Covenant, etc.), and a host of independent Bible churches that were born over the last century and a half. Many of them officially adopted the dispensational theology of J. N. Darby by the mid-twentieth century.

From The Puritan Board: Some are.

I think the EFCA is basically broadly evangelical and has some churches that are more Calvinistic and some that are more Arminian and that there may be some latitude allowed for differences on baptism as well. I think all are dispensational and that premillenialism is the official doctrinal position of the denomination.

…My (limited) experience with the EV Free denomination is that they are "Reformed-friendly," meaning the doctrines of grace are 'acceptable'. In such a broad denomination, though, there will always be exceptions at either end of the scale..

Roger Olson says that EFCA is open to Arminians. He made a list of churches open to leadership by Non-Calvinists. That list is worth a look!

Brethren and Pietist: Brethren Church (Ashland), Brethren in Christ Church, Church of the United Brethren in Christ, Evangelical Congregational Church, Evangelical Covenant Church, Evangelical Free Church of America.

All bolding and underlining of words in Sean's story was added by TWW.

Sean's story

I have been asked by Dee to share my experience at an Evangelical Free Church in Middle America. I would like to offer up front that this is my experience and how I processed it. There were and are many good people still at that church today and I harbor no ill will toward them. It is possible I reacted poorly and more fault lies in me than the E-free church I attended  from  1981 to 1992 and again as an adult in 2001 to 2011. The story starts with my parents finding Chuck Swindoll (link by TWW) on the radio and beginning to see that they learned much more from him about the bible than they were at the Methodist church we had been attending.  So at 7 years old my parents changed churches and I started attending an E-free church that “taught God’s word”.

The transition for me to the new church was harsh. Gone were all of the friendly faces and Sunday school class that was fun. We went from a church of people who were lower middle class like us to a church with a large number of doctors, lawyers and business owners attending.  I would say 80% of the kids came from upper income families and all attended private Christian schools (except for me).  Sunday School Class became a competition of who could complete the lesson quicker than the teacher and I felt like a dummy.

As I was in grade school I started doing the Awana club (link by TWW) every Wednesday night, also known as the “Sola Scriptura Scouts” by me in recent years. I was strongly encouraged to perform well by my parents and the desire to show I was just as able to learn as the private school kids. Once 6th grad rolled around I received the Timothy Award and was excited to join the youth group. I went to summer camp 2 summers after my 4th and 5th grade years that resembled Jesus Camp the movie minus the speaking in tongues and the prolife stuff.  The take away from these camps were anyone outside the interpretation of Christianity presented was going to Hell and we did chapel morning, noon and night to program us in these beliefs.

In sixth grade a traveling evangelist culture warrior Al Menconi  (Link provided by TWW) came to our church to preach the evils of secular music. I remember looking at the brochure he sold that disparaged every popular secular band and why you shouldn’t listen to them. I still remember the Motorhead description where he quoted Lemmy saying something about if they moved in next door they would kill your lawn. A mental note was made to check this group in particular out at a later date. After he came to town, I was convicted by the evils of secular music and sold my entire cassette tape collection (mostly Van Halen) to the used record store here in town.

Then I was old enough to enter the youth group the summer I was going in to 7th grade. The youth pastor reached out to all of us entering and took us out for an ice cream and to a store of our interest. I was interested in playing the guitar at the time and it happened that the youth pastor was a guitarist. I felt like the youth pastor was my friend and really liked me. The first warning sign came on a Sunday morning in Sunday school right after we hung out. He called me out for not paying attention when I had told him that my allergies caused my eyes to water. My memory is not 100% here but I think he was playing alpha dog by humiliating us one at a time.

Then one Wednesday night when I showed up for youth group at his house and went to the basement everybody was somber and sad. Then one of the older girls came down the stairs crying. This is where my church PTSD kicks in and I don’t remember everything but parts of that evening. I think it was said by the youth pastor that when we sin we need to confess our sins in front of the whole group and ask for forgiveness. This poor girl then went on to recount her sexual relations with her boyfriend and confess she was pregnant. I still get sick to my stomach today when I think about this scenario and this was warning sign #2 I was in an unhealthy place.

Every other year we took a trip to Nationals. Today it is called Challenge. (Link by TWW.) I got to see places I had never been and had fun the first year I went. We went to Arizona and I lead a woman to the Lord on the street with the apologetics literature provided by the conference. On the way home we were supposed to see the Grand Canyon and I was excited to see that but was greatly disappointed when we parked at a picnic area and looked at the Canyon. Then we sat and had more indoctrination and devotions for another 4 hours. I went on a total of 3 of these trips and each year the rules got more strict with not being allowed to go out without adults, no skateboards and enforced participation in devotions and evangelization.

In my 8th grade year I started skateboarding and started realizing Christian Rock at the time was terrible. At this point, I had to sneak in dubbed cassettes from a friend who liked punk and alt rock. I went from listening to Beautiful Girls by Van Halen to Suffer by Bad Religion. My youth pastor hated skateboarding and purposely talked about how it was distraction from “spiritual things”. From 8th grade on I was on the outs with this guy and he voiced his displeasure toward me on a regular basis.

My parents, sensed things weren’t right and signed us up for a SonLife conference (link placed by TWW) at our church. It was the newest curriculum on how to run your youth group and they hoped it would help me reengage. I remember a circle picture graphic, that stratified all of the kids in it from the devoted inner circle known as the “ministry team” to the outer circle as the disengaged you were supposed to ignore.  As I watched the presentation as a 15 year old, I felt like everything was fake and the youth pastor was just there for a job and didn’t care for anybody but the do-gooders. I would test the out group theory and it was followed as I was asked to leave several times.

The Summer of Mercy (link provided by TWW) came to town and polarized our entire church. I felt like the people were unfairly judging the women who were having abortions and bragging about their involvement in the protests. The youth pastor got arrested blocking a clinic one day and the next Sunday berated me for skateboarding once again. I quipped back “At least I don’t have a criminal record.” Later that summer on the Nationals trip he asked me to pray and I told him “Isn’t that what they pay you for.”  After that meeting and another situation where I was mad because a kid dropped a wrench on my foot and he didn’t like my attitude he asked me to leave.

The last straw was at a youth group meeting on a Wednesday night. This one kid offers a creepy prayer request that he views women as sexual objects. I laughed because the guy was a fake and I knew he offered that to get in the good graces of the leaders. The leaders that were there that night used once again the line ”If you don’t want to be here leave” so I did and never went back. From then on, my group of friends skipped Sunday school and went to the Burger King up the road. In later years the youth pastor kicked out some of the rich kids so a Sunday school class was started for the rejected boys.  This guy was never held accountable by the church and quit on his own several years after I quit. The rich parents did try once to hold him accountable but the staff decided it was the children’s fault because we sinned.

So needless to say, I entered my adult years very bitter about my church experience and never wanting to back. I met my wife my senior year of high school and attended two other non-denominational churches and finding no matter where you went church people were no fun to be around. With being a little more astute on psychological terms, I disassociated from spirituality of any kind until 5 years ago when it all came back to the surface.

*********

So shunning, legalism, etc. were in vogue all in the name of raising godly™ kids. It appears to have backfired. Caveat Emptor.

Sean is working on Part 2 to his story. We will post it when he is finished. TWW thanks Sean for his willingness to share his early years with such raw transparency. 

Lydia's Corner:Exodus 21:22-23:13 Matthew 24:1-28 Psalm 29:1-11 Proverbs 7:6-23

Comments

Sean: Growing Up in an Evangelical Free Church Youth Group — 152 Comments

  1. I’m so sorry to hear all of that. I think that much of the teachings in youth group directly correlated to huge numbers of my generation becoming nones and dones. My church’s youth group simultaneously walked out of the doors and never came back when the pastor declared us all to be heretics, but our experience was coming from a different church tradition altogether.

  2. Does being dispensational mean that you cannot be Reformed?

    It used to be that “Reformed” was synonymous with “covenant theology” which is the antithesis of dispensationalism, probably because all dispensationalists were basically Arminian and all Covenant Theologians Calvinists. However, in recent years “reformed” is synonymous with Calvinistic (to be simplistic…) and not necessarily with covenant theology. Hence John MacArthur calls himself a “leaky dispensationalist” and also would call himself reformed. In addition, Piper, Grudem, Mahaney, Driscoll, and co. affirm l charismatic theology and also keep the label “reformed.”

    So… the “reformed” label is somewhat generic, though at the least it embraces the basic tenets of the five points of Calvin.

    I know a couple pastors in the EV free denomination. Two are reformed. Two aren’t. IM not sure the major differences between the EFCA and your basic southern baptist bunch. Sean’s story sounds similar to what would have been experienced in many baptist churches in the ’80’s and ’90’s – super legalistic. Most of those have gone “seeker sensitive” now and, in my opinion traded the poison of legalism for a different, though perhaps no less harmful in the long run, brew.

  3. MacArthur is thoroughly dispensational and as neo-Cal as it gets. I get what Horton is getting at in terms of whether the two actually go together.

    But the fact is that either they do in reality go together or people (including those of MacArthur’s smarts… though I disagree with a large part of his theology and approach, he is a smart guy) are able to hold them together despite the dissonance.

  4. In my experience (though a bit limited) with the E-Free church, I think it’s fair to say that:

    1. As a “free” church local congregations are free to develop their own distinctives under certain defined limits. My experiences in or with these groups has always seemed to me to be rather similar to the Baptist groups that I’ve generally frequented throughout my life

    2. It does contain some pretty hardcore neo-Calvinists.

    3. Expanding on #2, I think that trend is growing in that denomination. But has been in recent years elsewhere as well.

    …though I think that we’ve reached peak-neo-Cal.

  5. dee wrote:

    Why did he say that?

    The pastor gave a sermon saying that “If you don’t believe in a literal six-day creation, if you don’t believe in immersion baptism, etc. then you are a heretic!” He also said “mixing doctrines … picking and choosing what you believe is like suicide.” (the mixture of different kinds of soda-pop in one cup, it is unhealthy and might as well be poison.) Essentially stating that our beliefs were only accepted if he gave them to us. This bothered the most spiritual member of the group who saw it for what it was and realized that he was making issues of secondary doctrines of primary importance as he was doing with gender teachings around the same time. The youth group all supported each other as they agreed to leave the church they realized that church had something wrong about it, but they were never taught the vocabulary to express what it was. It is why I now hold to the idea that I have to figure out what I believe for myself and why I believe it – I don’t automatically accept everything being preached from the pulpits as being true.

  6. Looking forward to the rest of the story. Sean’s story is probably relatable by many of us Gen-Xers who attended evangelical churches of most any stripe during the 80s. Sounds a lot like my church, and the churches of my friends as well.

    …and you Boomers and Millenials wonder why Gen-Xers are such cynics. :p

  7. @ Joe:

    Just a nuance. There was a time when certain Presbyterians were also dispensational. The Bible Presbyterians are dispensational, for example. The founder of Dallas Seminary, *the* dispensational seminary, was Presbyterian and 4-pt. Covenantal premillennialism has, AFAIK always been an acceptable but minority position in Reformed churches.

    Michael Horton is making an argument that the name “Reformed” includes not just soteriology but also ecclesiology and eschatology, and sacramentology. The churches which he disparages pretty much rejected the strong ecclesiology of the Reformed, and I think the Awakenings were only part of the reasons for that on the frontier.

    I think he makes a good point about the definition of “Reformed” but disagree in part with his categorization of movements arising from the Great Awakenings. There was some craziness, but such is always the case as the enemy is always sowing tares.

    What is brevity?

  8. E.G. wrote:

    In my experience (though a bit limited) with the E-Free church, I think it’s fair to say that:
    1. As a “free” church local congregations are free to develop their own distinctives under certain defined limits. My experiences in or with these groups has always seemed to me to be rather similar to the Baptist groups that I’ve generally throughout my life
    2. It does contain some pretty hardcore neo-Calvinists.
    3. Expanding on #2, I think that trend is growing in that denomination. But has been in recent years elsewhere as well.
    …though I think that we’ve reached peak-neo-Cal.

    That is how I see things in the one E-Free church I know about, except Calvinistas are not a big force there AFAIK. That one is credo-baptist, and I don’t quite see the same legalism. I do not know about E-Free as a whole. I do think that what Sean relates is due to the overwhelming influence of Gothardism in evangelical churches of the 1980’s and 90’s. The Calvinistas have picked up that mantle, unfortunately.

    Why do you think peak-neo-Calvinism has been reached? I’m hopeful…

  9. I attended a fundamental, legalistic baptist Bible college for three years back in the late ’90’s. Some was good. I learned a lot. But I also learned that, though all variations of Christianity are susceptible to hypocrisy, legalism (defined by me as “do this, don’t do that, follow these rules, take the ‘high road’, and Jesus will like you more than the poor fools who think they’re christians but they cant hardly be because they like punk rock and dancing”) is a breeding ground for hypocrisy because acceptance is not based on grace but law. And to that, anyone can, for brief periods of time (say, 90 minutes per Sunday?) keep the law and be acceptable. But, neither can you keep those same oppressive rules 24/7/365, so you just give up trying, but put on “the show” for those 90 minutes. In other words, the best actor wins.
    To the subject of abuse, it’s only a matter of time until the best actors accrue positions of power, and to the extent they are actors and not Spirit-led men (and there are some good fundamentalists, my dad is one, and he’s phenomenal, but not legalistic yay I just can’t talk him out of the fundamental label) they all too often succumb to the temptations of power, pride, lust, etc. It’s tragic. And that’s how I see Sean’s story here. Like EG said, it’s all too familiar. Is it any wonder were such cynics? he asked. Thats well asked!

  10. @ Gram3:

    I should have said that my opinion is that the E-Free was more influenced by Gothardism than by strict fundamentalism like BJU. The IFB’s in the cities where I lived were separated from the SBC and E-Free, but Gothardism made huge inroads into some churches in the SBC and I guess into some of the E-Frees, too.

  11. @Gram3 I agree with the Gothard stuff creeping in. Looking back when I read stuff from IFB survivors I feel like the Efree church had the same piety in my youth.

  12. @ Seanr:

    So sorry you had to go through all that, and especially at such a vulnerable age. Gothardism has been a plague on the church for a very long time. It is tragic, but we never seem to learn that legalism is deadly. May you feel encouraged by people here who understand that, and I hope that your experience with false teaching won’t keep you away from Jesus who is life.

  13. Joe wrote:

    Most of those have gone “seeker sensitive” now and, in my opinion traded the poison of legalism for a different, though perhaps no less harmful in the long run, brew.

    I second those thoughts. I was a busy but content parishioner in an Independent Fundamental Baptist church that began the Seeker movement when Rick Warren’s book came out. If you knew me personally, you’d know I am a team player, but the constant changing of methods and styles stressed me out and I had some sort of a breakdown (emotional). I felt like they didn’t give a lick about their regular attenders. The most important person is always the one who hasn’t yet tried the church.

    I think it’s ironic how most seeker messages try to put the listener into the story (“What is YOUR Red Sea moment? What are the Giants that YOU need to slay? — a trend I loathe because it misses the real point of the scripture), but when you say that you can’t keep up with the seeker driven movement and all of its changes and demands, you are kindly told that it’s not all about you.

  14. Oh “youth group”. Where they try on every Christian fad, first. Sort of a plastic fish social experiment.

    There was an old joke in the mega world that you cannot keep a youth pastor past 30 years old.

  15. Eric S wrote:

    I think it’s ironic how most seeker messages try to put the listener into the story (“What is YOUR Red Sea moment? What are the Giants that YOU need to slay? — a trend I loathe because it misses the real point of the scripture), but

    Oh my word. That is so true!

  16. Gram3 wrote:

    I do think that what Sean relates is due to the overwhelming influence of Gothardism in evangelical churches of the 1980’s and 90’s. The Calvinistas have picked up that mantle, unfortunately.
    Why do you think peak-neo-Calvinism has been reached? I’m hopeful…

    First point, yeah, I agree with the Gothardism thing. And, yes, neo-Calvinism is just fundamentalism or neo-puritanism (is there a difference?) dressed up in different garb.

    That “SonLife” thing was really telling. That was SUCH a big deal back then. Also the rise of Christian rock and and Hal Lindsay… all meant that the 80s and early 90s were weird, weird, weird.

    Second point, neo-Cal stuff has been picked up to such an extent by hipsters, and mostly males. That’s what Piper et al. were aiming at, and that’s what they got. But that demographic is now heading past their prime of youthful “influence” and youthful exuberance.

    There is also the fact (I believe) that the phenomenon tended to attract either reformed rebels or the generally discontented. And then when they latched onto what seemed like a perfect set of theological rules and rules in general that would supposedly show them the way with clarity, they got massively excited by it and became… jerks.

    But that level of excitement wears off at some point. And I think that point is here.

    I am not reformed by any stretch, but I spent much of my childhood being educated in a capital-R Reformed school. I know the theology (one reason I don’t buy it). And I know the people who are long time, steadfast adherents to proper Reform theology. While i don’t agree with them, they are a great bunch of folks indeed. I am hoping that this new neo batch either moves back to vanilla big-tent evangelicalism or becomes more like their Reformed forebears.

  17. Extra legal rules, like what is or is not spiritual, seems to be what I notice. There was a great architect Gaudi, who was an ultra conservative Catholic (the Catholic sect he belonged has been accused of being over the top). His architecture is extraordinary and beautiful and worshipful. His masterwork is the Familia Segrada cathedral and that famous park he designed is incredible. He and his best friend sat naked on the benches (made out of some elastic material) so that people could actually be comfortable sitting on them. The there is the music of Bach. Bach wrote profound religious music based on secular tunes. I think rap music would work for religious music. Where do these extra biblical rules come? Who decides what is spiritual and what isn’t spiritual? I don’t believe it is in the Bible?

  18. As I was in grade school I started doing the Awana club (link by TWW) every Wednesday night, also known as the “Sola Scriptura Scouts” by me in recent years.

    For what it’s worth, Awana came up a lot recently in the past of my fandom contacts. None of them had anything good to say about it.

    I remember a circle picture graphic, that stratified all of the kids in it from the devoted inner circle known as the “ministry team” to the outer circle as the disengaged you were supposed to ignore.

    “Ministry team” or “Inner Party”?

    In my 8th grade year I started skateboarding and started realizing Christian Rock at the time was terrible.

    Anything you can describe as “Just like Fill-in-the-Blank, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!” is pretty much guaranteed to be terrible. Kind of like Socialist Realism or National Socialist Realism.

    At this point, I had to sneak in dubbed cassettes from a friend who liked punk and alt rock.

    Check out the Russian word “Samizdvat” sometime. Party Commissars censor the overground music & art into toeing The Party Line, and a black market in underground music & art pops up.

    And the way to get around censorship of Party Commissars — SAMIZDVAT!

    My youth pastor hated skateboarding and purposely talked about how it was distraction from “spiritual things”.

    Did this guy ever get so Spiritual(TM) that he stopped eating and drinking because who needs the Flesh(TM)?

    The youth pastor got arrested blocking a clinic one day and the next Sunday berated me for skateboarding once again. I quipped back “At least I don’t have a criminal record.”

    Sounds like Operation Rescue during its heyday in the Eighties. Every pro-life group had tunnel-visioned on “Our Way Is The ONLY True Pro-Life Way” and Op Rescue’s was “If you don’t go to jail with us for blocking the Abortuary, You’re Not REALLY Saved.”

    The leaders that were there that night used once again the line ”If you don’t want to be here leave” so I did and never went back.

    Sounds like you took them at their word. Did they try to chase after you and drag you back?

    “Look, Dad! The Heathen’s Getting Away!”
    — Ned Flanders’ son, during a car-chase “witnessing session” in The Simpsons

  19. E.G. wrote:

    That “SonLife” thing was really telling. That was SUCH a big deal back then. Also the rise of Christian rock and and Hal Lindsay… all meant that the 80s and early 90s were weird, weird, weird.

    “What a Long, Strange Trip It’s Been…”
    — The Grateful Dead

  20. E.G. wrote:

    And I know the people who are long time, steadfast adherents to proper Reform theology. While i don’t agree with them, they are a great bunch of folks indeed.

    That is so true. I think that they are secure in their Reformed credentials and don’t need to try so very, very hard. I think the Baptists and other free churches don’t have the long academic tradition, and it shows in a lack of confidence manifest as arrogance and bluster. Not that the reformed don’t have their own lunatic fringe of unrecontructed Rushdoonyites.

    Thanks for helpful perspective on YRR. It brings hope that I may live to see a return to sanity in every neighborhood of the church.

  21. E.G. wrote:

    MacArthur is thoroughly dispensational and as neo-Cal as it gets. I get what Horton is getting at in terms of whether the two actually go together.

    To me, Uber-Calvinism + Dispensationalism = The Worst Possible Combination.

  22. Mark wrote:

    I am starting to like the confessional Lutheran belief in the two kingdoms more and more.

    Baptists used to believe that, and some PCA/OPC folks are strong on 2K, including Mike Horton. Seems like mixing the two is always a bad idea for both.

  23. @ Gram3:

    Years ago I went to a friend’s beautiful wedding at a conservative Lutheran Church Missouri Synod congregation. It was joyful and I was shocked by the beer at the wedding party and the dancing, but they knew how to have fun. Baptists and others would frown on this. Absent the beer, it would be nice if we weren’t so uptight. I have read that Lutherans are not so uptight about the secular because of the two kingdoms doctrine. That EFCA church described above seemed like an uptight church.

  24. @ Jamie Carter:

    “The youth group all supported each other as they agreed to leave the church they realized that church had something wrong about it”
    +++++++++++++

    this is quite a story. so, the entire youth group of a church all quit the church en masse. what was the reaction of the pastor? was he angry? was he embarrassed/humiliated? was he humbled? did he say, “awe, shucks, come back — I can be reasonable”? and what has become of this pastor?

  25. Eric S wrote:

    I felt like they didn’t give a lick about their regular attenders. The most important person is always the one who hasn’t yet tried the church.

    That’s a great insight, and one of the shortcomings of the movement. I recall feeling that way even in a super evangelistic fundamental church – I wanted to say to the pastor, “hey, I’m saved! Can you talk to me once in awhile too?”

  26. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    For what it’s worth, Awana came up a lot recently in the past of my fandom contacts. None of them had anything good to say about it.

    Interesting… I did the AWANA thing growing up, and pretty much maxed out the levels as far as you could go (let’s face it, it was the only competitive thing I was good at). Looking back, I’d describe my experience as neither good nor bad. But I can see how, depending on how the program is implemented, it could really turn kids off. Curiously enough, the Independent Fundamentalist Church where I attended at the time decided a year or so after I’d left for college (and left that church) that AWANA was too liberal. I’m not sure what program they started using in replacement, but I’m sure it’s KJV-only and fundy-approved.

  27. Since the conversation is headed this way…

    I think that the failure of the legalistic churches, so painfully obvious to the Sean’s and those of his (and my) generation, left us looking for something else. Some took the Arminian theology so prevalent already and ran after the seeker movement, which at least offered some freedom from the rules and a sense of “purpose” and that all seemed verified by the results. But it didn’t take long and many got disenfranchised by the lack of any depth and the almost nonexistent attention to actually growing in grace. Plus, if you intentionally fill a church with unbelievers, that’s going to have a whole set of negative consequences of its own.
    Enter the Reformed, of whom I’d consider myself a part (disappointing to some, no doubt!). I was reformed before I knew it though, as I came to my convictions through studying the Bible, especially through translation exercises in my Greek classes. Only later did I find out there was other people, like the Puritans and Luther, who read it the same way. But I digress…
    The reformed movement offered those thirsting for some sort of authenticity, which the hypocrisy of legalism and the shallowness of “seekerism” failed to provide, by majoring on grace, a high view of God, a low view of man, etc.
    My beef with YRR is that many of them skipped the emptiness of the other things and just jumped in, having no patience or tolerance for those who haven’t taken that long journey. The emphasis on doctrine is great – truth matters – but some of them (killing me not to throw a name or two in here) seem to propagate the reformed faith about the same way Muhammed did, albeit using digital swords. They give the rest of us a bad rap. Ah well.
    Throw in the obvious fascination with celebrity and I wonder how long until the reformed become once again, to Gram3’s delight, a minor blip on the evangelical radar. I’ll be sad, but I’ll understand that it probably needs the cleansing.

  28. Sean, thank you for sharing your story. I’m not familiar with the Evangelical Free Church, but I’m strongly opposed to public humiliation, brow-beating, and sin sniffing you experienced.

    I look forward to part 2!

  29. The theology at the efree church when I was a kid was a mix of Calvinism and Arminian. They taught the once saved always saved stuff and the sinners prayer as they way of salvation. Also, at the time the church was dispensational as well I recall the Ryrie Study Bible was carried by many church members at the time. There was also a subtle understanding that anybody that wasn’t our type of Christian was hellbound as well. (ie: Catholics,Mainliners and Orthodox). Lots of bad theology to unlearn there.

  30. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    As I was in grade school I started doing the Awana club (link by TWW) every Wednesday night, also known as the “Sola Scriptura Scouts” by me in recent years.
    For what it’s worth, Awana came up a lot recently in the past of my fandom contacts. None of them had anything good to say about it.
    I remember a circle picture graphic, that stratified all of the kids in it from the devoted inner circle known as the “ministry team” to the outer circle as the disengaged you were supposed to ignore.
    “Ministry team” or “Inner Party”?
    In my 8th grade year I started skateboarding and started realizing Christian Rock at the time was terrible.

    Anything you can describe as “Just like Fill-in-the-Blank, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!” is pretty much guaranteed to be terrible. Kind of like Socialist Realism or National Socialist Realism.
    At this point, I had to sneak in dubbed cassettes from a friend who liked punk and alt rock.
    Check out the Russian word “Samizdvat” sometime. Party Commissars censor the overground music & art into toeing The Party Line, and a black market in underground music & art pops up.
    And the way to get around censorship of Party Commissars — SAMIZDVAT!
    My youth pastor hated skateboarding and purposely talked about how it was distraction from “spiritual things”.
    Did this guy ever get so Spiritual(TM) that he stopped eating and drinking because who needs the Flesh(TM)?
    The youth pastor got arrested blocking a clinic one day and the next Sunday berated me for skateboarding once again. I quipped back “At least I don’t have a criminal record.”
    Sounds like Operation Rescue during its heyday in the Eighties. Every pro-life group had tunnel-visioned on “Our Way Is The ONLY True Pro-Life Way” and Op Rescue’s was “If you don’t go to jail with us for blocking the Abortuary, You’re Not REALLY Saved.”
    The leaders that were there that night used once again the line ”If you don’t want to be here leave” so I did and never went back.
    Sounds like you took them at their word. Did they try to chase after you and drag you back?
    “Look, Dad! The Heathen’s Getting Away!”
    — Ned Flanders’ son, during a car-chase “witnessing session” in The Simpsons

    They were glad I scrammed in my youth. However, as an adult they did try to get me to stay. Will address this in part 2 of my story.

  31. @ Mark:
    Mark- Funny you mention Lutheran theology. The law/gospel distinction they preach was music to my ears as I am now Lutheran. Reading “Where God Meets Man” by Gerhard Forde was a life changing read. I think it was probably a source book for NBW’s Pastrix.

  32. elastigirl wrote:

    what was the reaction of the pastor? was he angry? was he embarrassed/humiliated? was he humbled? did he say, “awe, shucks, come back — I can be reasonable”? and what has become of this pastor?

    If he was angry, embarrassed, humiliated or humbled by the experience, I would not know. I can tell you that he made no effort to reach out to the youth, to talk to them, or to restore the relationship. I think he just let them and did nothing. Since there was no college age ministry for them and they had effectively aged out of being a youth because they were all high school seniors; there was no longer any reason to spend any effort ministering to them. At least he could devote his energy on the new eldest youth, the middle schoolers. He is still the head pastor of the same church. Looking at the churches website, the ‘youth’ ministry is just two sentences. The ‘college’ ministry is just four sentences. Both are curiously lacking any actual content – time of meeting, pictures of people, subject of study. That’s not an encouraging sign that things have gotten better, it is more of an indication that it hasn’t.

  33. @ Mark:

    I think the uptightness is an artifact of fundamentalism and Prohibition. I would have to research the origins of tee-totalling theology among Baptists, but this Baptist likes wine but not beer. I think it’s the fermented grain vs. fermented grape smell thing that is personal. Besides Jesus didn’t make beer, so obviously he forbids us to drink beer and commands us to drink wine. 😉 That was a little friendly wink in Ken’s direction. I love to dance but can’t do that much any more without somebody getting injured, so neighbor-love rules that out for health *and* aesthetic reasons.

    So, I guess I’m a bad Baptist. I will grant that one thing that YRR Baptists have got right is their point about “beverage alcohol.” As for the Free churches, the wedding we went to at a Free church was definitely a party. A very long and lively party.

  34. @ Gram3: You would be a very good baptist in my book. I am uncertain so much I was taught was essential, really is essential. Now, I have chosen not to imbibe in win, beer, or spirits because I have family who are alcoholics.

  35. Joe wrote:

    I wonder how long until the reformed become once again, to Gram3’s delight, a minor blip on the evangelical radar.

    I think you misunderstand what I think. If someone holds to Reformed theology, which is actually more like Bezaism, then I say great. Same for Arminians. I’ve been in all kinds of camps and seen the good, the bad, and the ugly. I actually think you gave a good synopsis of the path of evangelicalism over the past 3-4 decades and also think your assessment of the attraction of the YRR for the children of Boomers is exactly right.

    Where we diverge is whether the YRR movement will turn out to be a net positive or a net negative. The reason I say that is that both the legalism of the fundamentalists/Gothardites *and* the seeker-sensitive movements were reactions against something else. The problem was that the diagnosis was wrong, so the remedy was wrong.

    ISTM that the YRR is a fusion of the doctrine of the Reformed Baptist 1689ers, the legalism of the IFB, and the Reformed credentials of the PCA. The bond between those diverse impulses is the synergy of the Celebrities. The OPC seems to have opted out of this Reformed Movement, so that’s interesting in itself, I think. Machen must be smiling while he and Chafer and Rogers enjoy a beer and cigar.

    I appreciate the enthusiasm and desire of the young people to find an authentic faith. I don’t appreciate how they have been indoctrinated by the Gospel Glitterati GroupthinkTank rather than taught to search the scripture as Bereans. I do know that indoctrination will *not* last through the storms of life these young folks have no idea are coming their way. Many of the ones I’ve challenged wave away practical theology totally. When their baby dies or their teenage daughter learns she is pregnant without knowing who the father is, there will be precious little grounding or comfort for those storms in Doctrinal Regurgitation and Gospel Glitterati parroting.

    What was that brevity thing you mentioned?

  36. Mark wrote:

    Now, I have chosen not to imbibe in win, beer, or spirits because I have family who are alcoholics.

    And I hope you won’t be shamed as a fundy for that. You have chosen the path of freedom and wisdom, IMO. I don’t understand why wine and Welch’s can’t be served at communion in all churches like it is in some.

  37. @ Gram3:

    Joe, I meant to add that time will tell with the YRR just as it did for Fundamentalism and Seeker-sensitivity. It takes awhile for the unintended consequences to manifest. I do know that I can’t worship with people who have suddenly discovered that adult women need to be supervised by a man and that a woman teaching a man scandalizes God as much as it does Piper. I heard that said about black men and women too many times in the church a long time ago. Niggras need whites to tell them what to do. That’s because God made things that way. It was the Curse of Ham then; its the Curse of Eve now. Young people have absolutely no memory of that being taught in the church, but I do. Disgusting misuse of the Bible on both counts to retain power over others.

  38. Gram3 wrote:

    I do know that indoctrination will *not* last through the storms of life these young folks have no idea are coming their way.

    I totally agree! In my own life, it’s been the sovereignty of God, even and especially in bad times that has helped me most. A good, Biblical theology of suffering is going to be needed by everyone at some point, and I’ve found it not only Biblical, but comforting to have a God who’s big enough to help me through the valleys, even if He leads me there, as opposed to a God who wishes He could help, but can’t because His freedom is limited by man’s.

    Never mind the brevity thing. Seemed funny at the time, but it wasn’t!

  39. @ Gram3:

    I’m no prophet and could be way off base, but if I were to hazard a guess, the charismatic tendencies of the reformed movement will be its undoing. There’s much about Piper I like, but he and other continuationists have built into their teaching the very thing that will eventually cause the movement to be swallowed up by the Charismatic churches.
    So yes, I see it falling eventually, and I think that’s what it’s going to be. Driscoll started some of that with his claim to Divinely-enabled voyeurism. And as the celebrity-hungry elements (not all the visible are celebrity hungry, but some certainly are) try to outdo each other, the logical step is to “hear from God” in order to stay relevant. And that’ll kill it.
    As a postscript, I wonder if once the reformed and charismatic circles are completely enjoined, if there won’t be an eventual marriage of that and the Catholic Church. But that’s a bit eschatological.

  40. Gram3 wrote:

    Young people have absolutely no memory of that being taught in the church,

    Thanks to my mom, I do. She’s been very serious about showing me how much society has changed and how privileged, (not necessarily in a good way), my generation is.

  41. HOLY BATMAN!!!! A discussion on the Evangelical Free! 😯

    Sean, I’ve heard about some of these programs when I was in the Evangelical Free. However, I was an adult and saw some of these be mentioned from time to time. The Evangelical Free was my first exposure to evangelical Christianity.

    As hard as it is for you to re-tell this I am grateful that you are focusing on the problems of the Evangelical Free. I’ve been hoping the EFCA will be discussed and looked at for quite some time. The EFCA is being torn apart due to problems with Neo-Calvinism as well. I’ve heard and encountered some interesting situations with the Evangelical Free in California and Washington, D.C. I will get into those in a second. But I’ve been hoping that the spot light can be turned on the Evangelical Free and more information about Neo Cal church hijackings can be discussed. There are some Evangelical Free which have adopted heavy shepherding and the Sovereign Grace Church model. There are other Evangelical Free deeply aligned with The Gospel Coalition and 9 Marks. There are Evangelical Free church doing church plant with Acts 29 and using Mark Driscoll’s material. There are other Evangelical Free taking in Pastors from Neo Cal schools and being hijacked and forcing people out. I used to think highly of the Evangelical Free…today as a denomination I do not. It is not stable and it is flawed. Like Germany where the National Socialists used democracy to destroy democracy there are Neo-Cals who manipulate and use Evangelical Free polity to destroy the Evangelical Free model.

  42. Joe wrote:

    Never mind the brevity thing. Seemed funny at the time, but it wasn’t!

    I was poking fun at myself. 🙂

    OK, I’m not an Open Theist. For reasons which don’t matter here. I hope that your view of God’s sovereignty is grounded in Christ and not in a systematics text, or God forbid, Ware’s book. I hope your view of God is not Piper’s view of an angry, threatening father who is looking for a reason to drop the hammer. I hope your view of everything is grounded in Christ and not in abstract theologizing. I’ve seen too much of it, and it will not bear the weight of suffering. YRR pastors who have absolutely nothing, and I really do mean nothing, beyond a mantra of “God is Sovereign” when someone’s world has just crashed and they have utterly lost hope. And by chanting the mantra, people are crushed. YRR pastors who cannot derive their theology from the actual text but merely parrot the *right* answers they have been taught like children reciting a catechism (not knocking catechisms.) YRR pastors who don’t particularly care to discuss questions because questions are scary when you have a brittle faith based on doctrines and if the doctrines turn out to be wrong, then what?

  43. Eagle wrote:

    I used to think highly of the Evangelical Free…today as a denomination I do not. It is not stable and it is flawed. Like Germany where the National Socialists used democracy to destroy democracy there are Neo-Cals who manipulate and use Evangelical Free polity to destroy the Evangelical Free model.

    I think it is fair to liken the current Calvinistas to the Primitive Baptists or other hyper-calvinist sects in the sense that they are truly parasitic. They are not builders; they are hostile takeover artists. I do not mean that the Calvinistas are hyper-calvinists in the technical sense like Primitive Baptists, but some like Nettles certainly seem headed that way to me.

    Even the vaunted church-planting is parasitic in the sense that it uses funds given by non-calvinist non-YRR people to “plant” churches that then cannibalize other churches, that is, if they survive. If they don’t, then that is money that is totally wasted. Vanity projects that are make-work for the glut of YRR seminary grads, in my view. The SBC Cooperative Program is a very good example. The funds given by all SBC donors are controlled by Calvinistas. David Platt is now head of the IMB in spite of the paltry giving from his church to the CP. No worries, he tows the party line. They have completely taken over the host.

    I hope that is not taking place in the EFCA. My sample size is 1, so I don’t know.

  44. @ Gram3:
    I have the advantage of being “reformed” before being reformed was cool 🙂
    Any theology I hold I have to draw from the text. If not, whats the use of holding it? It is, to wildly pull a phrase out of context, “good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden by feet of men.”
    Sean mentioned AWANA, and for what it’s worth I attended for two years as a kid and still so many verses that come to mind come back in the old KJV thanks to that program. It may have its faults, but it tucks the text into little minds, and that’s a good thing

  45. Nuts I need to get to bed, I’ll post a lot more in the morning. One thing I want to say is that it would be awesome if there could be students from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School that could write a couple of posts about the problems in Trinity with Neo-Calvinists. Trinity is popular with Neo-Cals and is cranking them out, thus leading to EFCA church hijackings.

    There are two things that concern me about Trinity.

    1. I recall reading a while back about a secret conference being held at TEDs that was invitation only that gave birth to The Gospel Coalition.

    2. I was perplexed by DA Carson’s response to Mark Driscoll plagiarizing his material. Carson is a professor at TEDs and I would have thought that he would have corrected, issued a statement or done something publicly to challenge Driscoll’s stealing of his intellectual copyright. Since Carson gave Driscoll a pass I would be fascinated to know if Carson was involved in disciplining or ejecting any TEDs students for plagiarism. If Carson was involved in disciplining TEDS students for plagiarism while choosing to “overlook” Driscoll’s plagiarism then I think it shows how his integrity is compromised and threatening the intellectual integrity of TEDS. I’d be fascinated to know if that occurred.

  46. @ Gram3:

    I need to get to bed but there is a lot to tell you about the EFCA Gram3. The problems in the SBC have largely duplicated themself in the EFCA. Just as SEBTS and SBTS is a hotbed for Neo Cals, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Deerfield, ILL is a hotbed for Neo Cals. That’s how churchs are getting hijacked.

  47. @ dee:
    Bad experiences proved to be the best teacher of wisdom. I’ve been an on and off again lurker of this site for awhile now and I’m glad to have all of your perspectives on the latest and most worrying trends out there.

    @ Seanr:
    I had to look up some of the terms – but it sounds suspiciously like what I was taught, or rather, would have been taught had my church not focused it’s resources into training me to defend creationism against the evils of evolution in pubic school. I remember more about Kent Hovind’s Creation Seminar and The Truth Project than any general teaching, but my denomination also taught a mixture of mostly Calvinism and semi-Arminianism for the adults, as well as from any number of LifeWay materials. The preferred translation was the NIV, but when my Message annoyed them, they gifted me a HCSB. From the sound of it, the major difference between your and my denominations were their names. I guess the emphasis on defending Christianity from imminent attack kept us from having issues with that degree of legalism because of the bigger fish we had to fry, but it certainly was not a healthy environment that did not allow for for weird questions like ‘why?’ I think in my case, the pastor intentionally moved the church away from Arianism and deeper into Calvinism, but he didn’t use either name specifically so that way most people weren’t aware until it was too late.

  48. Longtime former E Free member here. The easiest way to understand the Evangelical Free Church is think of it as the most liberal evangelical denomination. And by liberal I mean the strictest sense of the word: E Free churches are extremely flexible, so you can have one church be hardcore Reformed and another be mostly Arminian, and a church’s theological leaning can change from pastor to pastor. The saying in E Free was “major in the majors,” meaning so long as you’re on board with the big issues like sin, being born again, and sola scriptura, you were cool with them.

    As a result E Free churches can be a theological hodge podge. Our congregation was about 50/50 Calvinist and Arminian, and while John Piper’s Desiring God was our Sunday School curriculum, teachers were free to skip lessons they disagreed with or use an alternative curriculum that was more Arminianism-friendly. When I served as a deacon, three of us (including myself) were evolutionists, and the other three were YEC’s.

    So it’s hard to look at bad stuff that goes down in one E Free church and assume that other E Free churches are doing the same thing. In a lot of places the denomination’s openness ironically results in fundamentalism, because there’s no doctrinal screening that keeps them from joining and possibly taking over. Other churches like mine had a small but vocal fundamentalist faction that rarely had any pull.

    With regards to youth groups, this diversity can be more problematic. When some parents are homeschoolers and others look down on homeschoolers, you get a lot of conflict. There were a lot of kids like Sean, and the purity movement is pretty huge in E Free churches. But our pastor was a big believer in “come as you are,” so you’d get a lot of teens who were only marginally curious about Christianity who got dragged to youth group by their friends, and those newbies would dress the way you’d expect your typical teens would. The end result would be parents getting livid about the “scantily clad” girls attending youth group (and, to be fair,the outfits some of them wore to church did show a lot of skin). Leadership insisted that imposing a dress code would drive them away, and reaching the lost was more important than protecting the sensibilities of the saved. These kinds of stalemates happened over and over in our church, and I always felt sorry for the youth pastors that had to endure them.

  49. @ Jamie Carter:
    We could have hung out at Burger King together after quitting our youth groups. Oh and btw I got the Kent Hovind seminar vhs tapes from an older church member. Sonds like we have some similarities.

  50. @ Eagle:
    In the second part of my story I will tell how my old church was switched to the reformed format gradually. Kinda like the lobster in the pot slowly turned up kind of way.

  51. Eagle wrote:

    Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Deerfield, ILL is a hotbed for Neo Cals.

    Silly me. I thought when WayneGrudemGoWayneGrudem made the servant-leader sacrifice to move from the winter wonderland that is Chicago to Phoenix that he would take the toxic theology with him. Ware went to SBTS, so I wonder who Grudem left at TEDS?

  52. @ Joe:

    OK, I totally missed this earlier. 🙂 🙂

    True confession. I hate buying Gramp3’s undergarments. I’m seriously considering AMZ because I really, and I mean really, hate hunting to find the right type and size and being assaulted with pictures of things I don’t want to see, if you get my drift. Let’s just say I’m not visual, not that it matters much at my age. There are only limited things that are great about being old. One is you just let it rip because why not? Another is that the only reliable memories you have left is when you were young. And I remember… I tell myself that Gramp3 can only remember that, too. Self-deception is handy that way.

    What was that brevity thing again? I forgot.

  53. @ Seanr:

    Kent Hovind VHS tapes… The only things I remember are his condescending attitude and his pitiful jokes. “Dr.” Dino turned out to be a piece of work, clearly! (as he now sits in prison…) Anyway, I do recall seeing those at my church, though I was never honored to be the recipient of a personal set… 😉

  54. @ Eagle:

    There’s an Evangelical Free Church in my hood. About 7 or so years back I gave it a shot. My inner gut feelings kept telling me at the time …you don’t belong here Potter…, they were right, I didn’t belong there.

  55. Gram3 wrote:

    E.G. wrote:
    In my experience (though a bit limited) with the E-Free church, I think it’s fair to say that:
    1. As a “free” church local congregations are free to develop their own distinctives under certain defined limits. My experiences in or with these groups has always seemed to me to be rather similar to the Baptist groups that I’ve generally throughout my life
    2. It does contain some pretty hardcore neo-Calvinists.
    3. Expanding on #2, I think that trend is growing in that denomination. But has been in recent years elsewhere as well.
    …though I think that we’ve reached peak-neo-Cal.
    That is how I see things in the one E-Free church I know about, except Calvinistas are not a big force there AFAIK. That one is credo-baptist, and I don’t quite see the same legalism. I do not know about E-Free as a whole. I do think that what Sean relates is due to the overwhelming influence of Gothardism in evangelical churches of the 1980’s and 90’s. The Calvinistas have picked up that mantle, unfortunately.
    Why do you think peak-neo-Calvinism has been reached? I’m hopeful…

    I agree! I saw the sort of things described in the post mostly at Baptist and independent Bible churches we attended over the years (I grew up in a frequently-relocating family and married a guy with a frequently-relocating career). I do not doubt that some local EFCA’s incorporated such teaching; I just think to attach it squarely to all EFCA churches would be unfair.

    I have been in E-Free churches, once years ago, and one currently. I am happy to say that my current church is egalitarian and that the pastoral team is comprised of both Calvinists and non-Calvinists (Calvinist does not always equal Calvinista). Messages are composed by the entire teaching team and are well balanced with truth and grace. After running the Calvinista/9Marks gauntlet, my husband and I feel so blessed to have found this church home.

    As far as why the neo-Cal trend seems to have peaked, I credit a few things, probably the biggest being the world wide web. Anyone not fearing to sin-by-google-searching can read about the problems in the movement. Also, I think we are seeing the first waves of Piper & MacArthur-indoctrinated youth becoming independent and struggling with life in a messy world outside of the protected huddle of the church. They are yearning for a life that is full of truth and grace that cannot be earned or demonstrated by the narrow operating system in which they once swam. Also, women are just DONE with the complemetarian philosophies; I think many of the young adults (both female and male) are seeing that they really don’t want that type of relationship with their future spouses.

  56. Gram3 wrote:

    As for the Free churches, the wedding we went to at a Free church was definitely a party. A very long and lively party.

    You haven’t been to a wedding until you’ve been to a Polish wedding in the Southeastern industrial corner of Wisconsin. ===> (smiley face goes here)

  57. Mark wrote:

    …I think rap music would work for religious music.

    I recently heard a local Christian rap artist talk about this. He pointed out that a typical rap piece has more words than any other type of music, making it ideal for teaching both the gospel and copious amounts of doctrine.

  58. I am posting under my fuzzy name for what ever reason. I have never posted or told anyone this before and I consider it one of the most vile sins on my soul and it troubles me even to this day. I think I gave into evil, I did try to make up for it and did talk to the young adult person with a mild developmental disability and he did talk to his parents. They did not seem to see it as such a big deal. It was and I am sorry. I worked / volunteered for a ministry that worked with kids / young adults that held camps, they are a national group and they are wonderful people. I usually worked on what I considered the far more important issues, helping a kid get a wheel chair, find a good group home or day program. Helping the parents get support for respite and to deal with state agencies. Getting kids / adults in the ministry who needed to get to a wound clinic or other chronic care intervention etc.

    Well this young man went to this camp and after several talks / sermons there was the “cross talk” and the four spiritual laws and other such nonsense was blabbered on with the emotionalism poured on. Anyway this young man went to the leader of our group and asked about God and being loved by God. He did not understand word one about the actual “Gospel” even the watered down version being espoused on the kids. I tried to ask a few questions, knowing this young man was Jewish and what such a decision could do to an observant family. Thank Goodness his family was not very observant, but well never mind.

    We walked over to this table said some prayer and then this young man was welcomed into the family of God and he was forgiven of his sins and he was going to heaven. The kid did not even get the idea from an evangelical standpoint what sin was, the atonement etc. I sat there with this pour confused young man and said this prayer so we could put a point in the win column and get double points because he was Jewish. I dont think any of those folks involved think like this, you can bet the higher ups in the corporation make bank on this type of “conversion” and they do keep track of the numbers.

    I was leading the followup group where this young man was attending and he was really sort of scared because he thought he had to give up temple his synagogue / faith community etc.I told him to talk to his parents and his spiritual leader if he wished and to really think about what he wants to do. I also assured him that God loved him. I still feel awful about my participation in this farce. I mean everyone was really sincere and there was no real malice at the local level, and the higher ups, lots of malice on my part and to my shame. I mean when you see conversions and baptisms on a spread sheet that correlates to fund raising it pisses me off.

  59. __

    “God So Loved…”

    hmmm…

    “My God has taken the time to get to know me from my youth onward, bcause I was bold enough to ask…

    Ahem!

    God was bold enough to care.”

    thanks Lord, my cup runneth over…

    (tears)

    Sopy

  60. __

    “Devotional Berevity?”

    hmmm…

    “The scriptures, in quiet study, will always beat the four aces of broadcasted theology any day.” ~ Sopwith

    __

  61. @ Jamie Carter:
    In that case, The Gospel Coalition folks are heretics because yesterday Justin Taylor published a long list of reasons why you SHOULDNT believe in a literal six day creation.

  62. @ Gram3:
    In an amazing piece of condescending nonsense The TGC try to place YRR inn the same league as the following

    http://thegospel coalition.org/article/where-did-all-these-Calvinists-come-from

  63. Whilst reading this piece, I couldn’t help think this was a description of Christianity crippled by spiritual arthritis. Devoid of the Spirit, grace-less; foolish faithless heartless ruthless.

    Are we evangelicals ever going to learn that not only is legalism wrong, it doesn’t work? You don’t get free of worldliness by opting out of the world. You cannot manipulate good behaviour by threatening hell.

    For all the supposed attempt to be “biblical”, where in the bible does it say private sin has to be publically confessed? Where is the wisdom in allowing this?

    As to literal 6 day creation or you are/may not be saved, I’d love to preach a sermon to those who advocate this. It would go like this (just for fun).

    I and all genuine Christians believe in a literal one day creation.

    Text: “These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
    In THE DAY that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.”

    So you see, the ‘days’ of chapter one of Genesis were actually periods of 4 hours, and evening and morning lasted 2 hours respectively on average. Literally 4 hours, literally 2 hour periods.

    “But Ken, what about the 7th period of 4 hours”?

    Don’t be argumentative and rebellious. How dare you question me – me who knows the Hebrew word for day is yom.

    If only people would interpret scripture by scripture using the correct biblical hermeneutic and the historical-grammatical method like I just have …

  64. Ken wrote:

    For all the supposed attempt to be “biblical”, where in the bible does it say private sin has to be publically confessed? Where is the wisdom in allowing this?

    Well, it is there. I’m going off-topic a little here, but this from James 5:

    Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

    HOWEVER… I think we need to be diligent in obeying the whole counsel of scribsher before ripping this verse out of context to justify arrant shaming and humiliating of individuals. In any given setting, for instance, exactly who is “each other” needs to be determined with some humility, love and wisdom. Otherwise the prayer won’t heal the person, and if we pray for a person in such a way that they are pulled down and not healed, the result is tragic. In our very zeal and impatience to obey the verse, we would have disobeyed it.

  65. Lucy Pevensie wrote:

    Also, I think we are seeing the first waves of Piper & MacArthur-indoctrinated youth becoming independent and struggling with life in a messy world outside of the protected huddle of the church. They are yearning for a life that is full of truth and grace that cannot be earned or demonstrated by the narrow operating system in which they once swam.

    I like this observation, along with many others in this thread (from Joe, Gram3 and Sean among others). The trouble with a lot of “practical theology” (i.e. words about God) is that it evolves in a seminary environment. And yes, I used the word “evolves” deliberately. In other words, the theologies that survive to reproduce are usually the ones that enable you to flourish either in a seminary or via attracting a crowd on Sundays. In other words, the ones that enable you to have a successful theological career.

    However, insofar as they impart knowledge, they’re the opposite of love – knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. They tend not to impart wisdom: by definition, wisdom knows what to do with the anomalies, exceptions and complications when the rules don’t work.

  66. A couple of years ago I was travelling in the US. As I was away from home for couple of weeks I’d downloaded a few books to read. A few of them were the free books that Desiring God gives away. As I recall I was reading ‘Think’ by John Piper and I happened to be listening to ‘Heroes’ by David Bowie while waiting for a flight. The song tells of a couple of lovers defying the cold, ideological regime of the GDR just by being together “and the guns shot above our heads, And we kissed, as though nothing could fall, And the shame was on the other side. Oh we can beat them, for ever and ever Then we could be Heroes, just for one day” and it struck me that for all Piper’s talk of Love, the way that he expressed God’s sovereignty and the doctrine of election made him seem more om the side of the in-human regime than on the side of the lovers. Ok that was an atheist communist regime in the song – but what would Calvin’s Geneva or Cromwell’s London look like if it were backed with modern technology? Looking back that was the moment that started me against the Calvinista theology I’d been flirting with – that it is ideological and inhuman and makes God into something as bad as a Wahabi-Muslims Allah.

    Sorry its a bit stream of consciousness… hope it makes sense.

  67. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    I did wonder about the confess your sins to one another verse, but I’ve always imagined this to be a more one to one basis or small group rather than to the church. I once heard someone say the repentance should be a public as the sin, and this seemed good advice to me. Too much openess on what we’ve done wrong would only feed the church gossip machine.

    Doesn’t “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother” qualify this? You then call witnesses, and only after that should it go to the church.

    Incidentally, if a pastor = and elder, and the latter implies an older and more mature Christian, isn’t the term ‘youth pastor’ likely to be a contradiction in terms?

  68. @ Lucy Pevensie:

    “Also, women are just DONE with the complemetarian philosophies; I think many of the young adults (both female and male) are seeing that they really don’t want that type of relationship with their future spouses.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    wonderful news. what have you observed that makes you think this, though?

  69. Seanr wrote:

    There was also a subtle understanding that anybody that wasn’t our type of Christian was hellbound as well. (ie: Catholics,Mainliners and Orthodox).

    What is the use in having a club if you don’t exclude people?

    I am looking forward to part 2 of your story. I am sorry that you had to go through all that.

  70. Gram3 wrote:

    @ Mark:
    I think the uptightness is an artifact of fundamentalism and Prohibition. I would have to research the origins of tee-totalling theology among Baptists, but this Baptist likes wine but not beer. I think it’s the fermented grain vs. fermented grape smell thing that is personal. Besides Jesus didn’t make beer, so obviously he forbids us to drink beer and commands us to drink wine. That was a little friendly wink in Ken’s direction. I love to dance but can’t do that much any more without somebody getting injured, so neighbor-love rules that out for health *and* aesthetic reasons.
    So, I guess I’m a bad Baptist. I will grant that one thing that YRR Baptists have got right is their point about “beverage alcohol.” As for the Free churches, the wedding we went to at a Free church was definitely a party. A very long and lively party.

    I made a post on Facebook last night that I was drinking single malt scotch to help with my flu last night….I caught more flak from my SBC ” friends” on Facebook than concerns about my health….yes sir, as the essayist said, ” church people are no fun to be around.”
    BTW- single malt cuts a cough like nothing else….

  71. E.G. wrote:

    Looking forward to the rest of the story. Sean’s story is probably relatable by many of us Gen-Xers who attended evangelical churches of most any stripe during the 80s. Sounds a lot like my church, and the churches of my friends as well.

    …and you Boomers and Millenials wonder why Gen-Xers are such cynic

    Rest assured we Boomers are not very trusting either. It’s a matter of personality. Some of us are more vigilant, more likely to speak out, and more likely to act than others. I’m amazed at the number of people who stay at the church I left. They simply have been desensitized to the shallow abusiveness.

  72. elastigirl wrote:

    wonderful news. what have you observed that makes you think this, though?

    I so wish this were true. But every generation of young women think they can set new standards of virtue. And it usually involves a lot of hyper-modest hyper-domestic burka-think.

  73. Lucy Pevensie wrote:

    I have been in E-Free churches, once years ago, and one currently. I am happy to say that my current church is egalitarian and that the pastoral team is comprised of both Calvinists and non-Calvinists (Calvinist does not always equal Calvinista). Messages are composed by the entire teaching team and are well balanced with truth and grace. After running the Calvinista/9Marks gauntlet, my husband and I feel so blessed to have found this church home.

    Thank you for this comment.

  74. incogneto wrote:

    I still feel awful about my participation in this farce. I mean everyone was really sincere and there was no real malice at the local level, and the higher ups, lots of malice on my part and to my shame. I mean when you see conversions and baptisms on a spread sheet that correlates to fund raising it pisses me off.

    Incognito,
    You are not alone. A lot of us were taught to view unbelievers as “targets.” We were taught aggressive and manipulative evangelism techniques, as if it depended on us rather than the Holy Spirit.

    Don’t beat yourself up. God is bigger than our past mistakes. You can hang onto the good (the fervor for Christ) and just let go of the misused “techniques.”

    Just keep going.

  75. incogneto wrote:

    I still feel awful about my participation in this farce. I mean everyone was really sincere and there was no real malice at the local level, and the higher ups, lots of malice on my part and to my shame. I mean when you see conversions and baptisms on a spread sheet that correlates to fund raising it pisses me off.

    My guess us that most of us, for sure I have, at one point or another, in questionable evangelical tactics. At a meeting i attended a few years back in which we were discussing a Christian outreach program,the leader of the group keep stating “Metrics, we need metrics.” In other words-numbers are the key.

    The most important thing is this. You thought you were doing the right thing. You were kind to a young man. You learned from the incident. And God has the incredible ability to turn awkwardness into something positive.You never know, in the long run, how that incident will play out in his life. I so appreciate your thoughtfulness.

  76. @ Lucy Pevensie:

    That is so great to heaLucy Pevensie wrote:

    I have been in E-Free churches, once years ago, and one currently. I am happy to say that my current church is egalitarian and that the pastoral team is comprised of both Calvinists and non-Calvinists (Calvinist does not always equal Calvinista). Messages are composed by the entire teaching team and are
    well balanced with truth and grace. After running the Calvinista/9Marks gauntlet, my husband and I feel so blessed to have found this church home.

    What a blessing! Thanks for the encouraging comment. The E-Free I know about is moving in the egalitarian direction as well. How blessed for brothers and sisters, calvinists and non-calvinists to dwell in unity.

  77. Paul wrote:

    Ok that was an atheist communist regime in the song – but what would Calvin’s Geneva or Cromwell’s London look like if it were backed with modern technology?

    Excellent insight!! Ever think about writing a post about your thoughts?

  78. @ Christian Vagabond:

    Thank you for that thoughtful overview. Your description matches what I’ve seen and what my understanding is of the denomination.

    I wonder if the problem is not the program or curriculum but the way that the teachers/pastors are applying it? I loved AWANA and some other things that have been mentioned on this thread where people had bad experiences. IOW, I can’t identify specific things about those programs or organizations that would make abuse or legalism more likely.

    Youth ministry has always been a challenge. Youth are challenging, and now they are coming from a culture without cultural Christianity embedded. Kudos to anyone brave enough to take on that challenge. May God give them the grace to impart grace.

  79. incogneto wrote:

    I was leading the followup group where this young man was attending and he was really sort of scared because he thought he had to give up temple his synagogue / faith community etc.I told him to talk to his parents and his spiritual leader if he wished and to really think about what he wants to do. I also assured him that God loved him. I still feel awful about my participation in this farce. I mean everyone was really sincere and there was no real malice at the local level, and the higher ups, lots of malice on my part and to my shame.

    I don’t know why you feel shame. ISTM you were trying to introduce the boy to Christ. I did the same thing to my Jewish friends as a child. I don’t see any malice. WRT spreadsheets and metrics and such, it is a difficult question for me. On the one hand, donors want to know how their money is spent and if it is being used effectively. I say this as someone who has been close to what is known as “ministry development.” The question is how to measure “effectiveness.” So, giving the benefit of the doubt, maybe the people were trying to generate numbers to present to donors. That’s not necessarily a bad thing though it certainly can be manipulated, and that’s a very bad thing.

    Give yourself some grace.

  80. @ Gavin White:

    I read the article, but it’s the same old same old. I guess I’ve become immune to the “we are the ones Jesus has been waiting for” pitch. Did I miss something in particular? Happens a lot to me.

    Does this mean we are friends again? 😉

  81. Ken wrote:

    If only people would interpret scripture by scripture using the correct biblical hermeneutic and the historical-grammatical method like I just have …

    Indeed. If only… 🙂

  82. Gram3 wrote:

    Besides Jesus didn’t make beer, so obviously he forbids us to drink beer and commands us to drink wine. That was a little friendly wink in Ken’s direction.

    So, I guess I’m a bad Baptist. I

    Not sure if that was really intended for me, I didn’t think we had graduated on to a Beer v. Wine discussion yet. But … I do live in a wine growing area, and cycle to work through vineyards which produce some very tasty wine. The non-conformist teetotal tradition so beloved in England wouldn’t get a look in round here. Their motto remains to this day: Down with Drink!

    Regarding your comment on Baptists, is there any other sort? … 🙂

  83. Gram3 wrote:

    The reason I say that is that both the legalism of the fundamentalists/Gothardites *and* the seeker-sensitive movements were reactions against something else.

    I’d noticed this and meant to comment on it before. I think there is an enormous amount of truth in that statement. A lot of movements in church history and the contemporary church are reactions against something that is wrong. The inherent tendency in this is to produce the equal and opposíte of the original problem.

    A tendency to propagate a more calvinist theology, for example, is sometimes a reaction to a take it or leave decisional regeneration gospel.

    Some aspects of Reformed Theology it seems to be are best understood as a reaction to an attempt to correct the errors of medieval Catholicism.

    Wooden fundamentalism is a reaction to wishy-washy liberalism. And so on!

  84. Some aspects of Reformed Theology it seems to me are best understood as a reaction to and an attempt to correct the errors of medieval Catholicism.

    UGH!!

  85. Ken wrote:

    Not sure if that was really intended for me, I didn’t think we had graduated on to a Beer v. Wine discussion yet.

    No, the wink wasn’t about beer and wine. It was about our Other Discussion where one of us tries to get the other one to examine the reasoning behind the topic discussed in our Other Discussion. I was making a ridiculous argument to show how faulty reasons can lead to ridiculous conclusions. We only disagree on which argument is fallacious.

    That’s also the reason for the wink on your 6-day comment which was very funny, especially the part about grammatical-historical methodology. Except for your stubborn insistence on capitulating to the culture of Patriarchy, we have a *lot* in common. 😉

  86. @ Ken:

    Or, another way of describing it is the formation of a negative identity rather than forming an alternative positive identity. X is bad and Y is notX, so therefore Y is good and right.

    The key is not to be *solely* about opposing what is bad, but also actively pursuing what is good and returning to the truth. If we could ever get to the point where we really are semper reformanda we would do much better.

  87. @ dee:
    Thinking back, it might have been because I derailed a lesson from the brand new youth pastor by pointing out that a particular passage said specifically in my version ‘brothers and sisters’ whereas a literal reading of the HCSB uses simply ‘brothers’ where the King James Version used ‘brethren’. It made the whole point of the lesson sound as if it didn’t apply to the girls in the youth group, especially since he was emphasizing the ‘brother’ part of his lesson. It was his subtle way of telling me that my Bible wasn’t fit to study in that regard and I should trust the translation that he approved of.

  88. K.D. wrote:

    BTW- single malt cuts a cough like nothing else….

    Especially Laphroaig, as the phenols provide an additional germicide. (Not sure how that affects a viral cough, though, TBH.)

  89. Nice Kekbulb wrote:

    Beer or wine? I can settle that one decisively:

    I will tell you this but don’t tell Nick. Once I tried to brew beer in a little utility room off my kitchen. The smell almost sent us to the ER. End of story.

  90. Jamie Carter wrote:

    I derailed a lesson from the brand new youth pastor by pointing out that a particular passage said specifically in my version ‘brothers and sisters’ whereas a literal reading of the HCSB uses simply ‘brothers’ where the King James Version used ‘brethren’.

    This was one of Grudem’s talking points against the TNIV, though the ESV may also translate it properly as a mixed plural noun. He and the other ESV/Crossway types were up in arms over gender-neutral language saying God would be regarded as Mother, etc. Ridiculous. Sorry your youth pastor didn’t have the maturity to look it up.

  91. Here is an example of Neo-Calvinism penetrating the Evangelical Free Church. Cornerstone Evangelical Free in the Dc suburb of Annandale, Virginia is a strong Neo-Cal church, its senior pastor Bill Kynes is on the Board of the The Gospel Coalition. Several EFCA in the DC area have gone this route. Her eis the website you can play around and look at the material being recommended.

    http://cornerstoneefree.org/

  92. Here is a recent Evangelical Free Church church plant on Capital Hill area in Washington, D.C. This (Redepmtion Hill Evangelical Free) is a hybrid church plant between the Evangelical Free Church and Acts 29 network. You can look at the link below which shows this and poke around the wesbite. This church is sponsored by Crossway Fellowship, an Evangelical Free Church in Manassas, Virginia. When I was in my faith crisis I wanted to stay away from Acts 29 becuase of Mark Driscoll and checked out Crossway and saw the Neo-Cal material there and that they were planting the EFCA/Acts 29 church that I wanted nothing to do with.

    http://www.redemptionhilldc.org/about-us/networks

  93. In Fresno, California I was involved in Fresno Evangelical Free (now called The Bridge) in 1999 and 2000. Fresno Evangelical Freeplanted Clovis Evangelical Free in Clovis, California. Clovis Evangelical Free went the hard Neo-Cal direction and I think uses Sovereign Grace discipliship methods. Here is the website that you can poke around at…look at the senior Pastors blog he puses Al Mohler, CJ Mahaney, 9 Marks, etc…

    http://www.clovisevfree.org/

  94. Gram3 wrote:

    Except for your stubborn insistence on capitulating to the culture of Patriarchy, we have a *lot* in common.

    Not really, because I have never been exposed to the culture of Patriarchy; I’ve only come across it in US Christian literature. The UK has its own problems to compensate … 🙂

  95. This is the Senior Pastor at Clovis Evangelical Free promoting CJ Mahaney’s book “Humility” while the child sex abuse scandal was unfolding. And he used the scandal to show “how humble CJ Mahaney is”. (GAG!!) I sent this link to Dee to use in a post about the Evangelical Free to show the problems the denomination has. Here is the Senior Pastor of Clovis Evangelical Free Wil Owens.

    One of the reasons I looked forward to this book is because of the author. Anyone can write a Christian book on humility by simply studying the relevant passages and making applications. However, it’s a far different context when humility is present in the life of the one speaking to you about humility!! Mahaney is just that kind of author. If you are aware of recent events in his life, having recognized accusations against him, Mahaney voluntarily stepped down from Sovereign Grace and submitted himself to an accountability board to investigate the matter and then decide what actions he should take. That took a lot of grace; that took a lot of humility.

    Those events occurred AFTER Mahaney wrote this book! In other words, whatever God had taught him about humility was then put into practice before the entire evangelical world! That’s why I wanted to read this book, and I’m glad I did!

    Mahaney was reinstated by the way after a full investigation. I guess it’s true, God does exalt those who humble themselves!

  96. Gram3 wrote:

    @ Ken:
    Or, another way of describing it is the formation of a negative identity rather than forming an alternative positive identity. X is bad and Y is notX, so therefore Y is good and right.

    I’ve appreciated yours and Ken’s observations on this facet… I think a good picture of the futility of building a whole movement in reaction against something else is the Rotating Mask Illusion (of which there is a good CGI clip on youtube.com/watch?v=sKa0eaKsdA0). Whether the 3D-shape is facing away from, or towards, the viewer, it looks the same. And in many respects it is.

  97. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Left off the last inference which is what we see played out time after time: If Y is good and right, then questions about Y are bad and wrong and the people who question are also bad and wrong people.

    Thus is the negative feedback eliminated and the ultimate failure of the system secured.

  98. Eagle wrote:

    Virginia is a strong Neo-Cal church, its senior pastor Bill Kynes is on the Board of the The Gospel Coalition.

    Eagle- I have been visiting this website for a long long time and have appreciated your comments so much..However in your comment about Cornerstone being a Neo-Cal church ,I must take exception unless you are going the ‘Guilt by Association route’ I know Bill Kynes personally and I can tell you without hesitation,he is the most moderate of men that I know.. The fact that he is on the Board of the Gospel Coalition is neither here nor there… A visit to his church and an appreciation of his ministry may make you evaluate him differently.. There are many men like him in the E-Free Church who would shun such labels as Neo-Cal. – I happened to have known and appreciated the late UK preacher and pastor.D.Martyn Lloyd Jones and while he and many others may subscribe in their doctrine to a Reformed position,this in my view,does not merit the labelling of Neo Cal to them.. Incidentally Bill Kynes is a Rhodes Scholar and while that does not mean he is without fault in his doctrine,it does reveal that he has the intellect to be able to discern between extreme positions in Theology ..– By the way,Eagle..where would you place Wade Burleson in the scheme of things? In reading him and listening to him,I would have thought that he leans towards a Reformed position in the likes of CH Spurgeon etc…
    Eagle- I am not trying to challenge you on your comments but just ask you,not to ‘throw out the baby with the bathwater’—
    Greetings
    GM

  99. Gram3 wrote:

    Sorry your youth pastor didn’t have the maturity to look it up.

    I suspect that might have been the point, he was freshly graduated from the seminary and likely remembered his professors teachings on that subject very clearly. It’s far easier to get the gender based teachings widely accepted if you go after the most impressionable minds in a church because they lack the knowledge to speak against it.

  100. Jamie Carter wrote:

    It’s far easier to get the gender based teachings widely accepted if you go after the most impressionable minds in a church because they lack the knowledge to speak against it.

    That appears to be the strategy for securing the next generation. Don’t let them take that desire to get the unfiltered Word of God away from you. It sounds like you’ve got a Berean spirit and are not bound by the doctrines of men. Good for you!

  101. @ GM:

    Let me respond to this in detail GM when I get home. I have no problem with being challenged and if wrong I will admit it. Thanks for asking. I’m okay with the simple Calvinists its the Hypers/Neo’s that drive me nuts. I put people like Mark Dever and John Piper in that crowd. Their downfall is that they have made Neo-Calvinism fundementalism 2.0 and make determinism their God. The sovereingty that is taught is quite warped and I would suggest more in line with Sunni Islam than Christianity. As for Wade Burleson I do listen to his sermons from time to time. I know he’s reformed but I think he falls more in line with the simple Calvinists who I am okay with.

  102. @ GM:

    GM in looking at the Cornerstoen EF website I was looking at some of the material used in their disciplship program. I am not the biggest fan of Jonathan Edwards, and believe from a history and academic standpoint that he should be looked at more in the context of when he lived. I think many people worship Jonathan Edwards and that troubles me plus he was also a slave owner. True so was Jefferson and Washington. But I would think a preacher would be held to a higher standard than a state leader of civil servant, or military general. I also noted Jerry Bridges being pushed. I’m sorry but Bridges stood behind and defended CJ Mahaney against the child sexual abuse scandal. That deeply troubles me. When I see materila like that being pushed…it makes me wonder what else is being pushed.

  103. @ GM:

    I have deep, deep concerns about The Gospel Coalition. I am not a Calvinist plus its handling and entanglement with SGM is deeply distrubing for me. I see TGC as being like a theological Tameny Hall just spreading corruption. Its statement about the SGM lawsuit being thrown out on a techniality was one of teh sickest things I read. Doesn’t a sexually abused child count as one of the least of these? Due to what I see as deep corruption in TGC I will avoid churches that are connected to TGC.

  104. @ GM:

    I would like to be wrong GM. I worked hard in a faith crisis to stay away from Eric Simmons Redeemer Arligton. I had a military officer who made a flase accusation and use his rank as Captain to pull it off. So I am not impressed with Neo-Calvinism at all. That said, I would love to be wrong. I’d love my insticts about Sovereign Grace, Redeemer Arlington, and Cornerstone to be wrong. I’m not trying to practice guilt by association I just have deep concerns. If I am wrong I will owe it up and own it. I believe a man should operate in that fashion. And I honestly want to be proven wrong.

  105. @ GM:

    One last thought…if you ever want to meet in person at a coffee shop in the DC area I would be happy to discuss face to face.

  106. Eagle wrote:

    @ GM:
    One last thought…if you ever want to meet in person at a coffee shop in the DC area I would be happy to discuss face to face.

    Eagle..thanks for all your posts on this subject…I do not wish to get into the nitty gritty about Jonathan Edwards or Jerry Bridges etc…I lived through an age in UK where guilt by association was rife..in the end it’s self defeating and reminds me of some churches that practice exclusivity….our personal preferences aside…the terms Calvanism & Neo-Cals .simple Calvanism etc are not terms I use..if in describing theological matters I prefer to use Reformed,which has more of an historical meaning…rather than the above terms which usually indicate groups of people who have been given the terms usually because of behavior and not doctrine..
    Eagle..you obviously have strong convictions on three matters..that’s your prerogative and it’s not my place to try and persuade you otherwise…I am no longer in the E-Free these days but enjoyed my introduction to the U.S. church through attending and serving as an elder and Ass.Pastor in one..I did not care for some of its beliefs such as having to declare ones Eschatology belief which mine was not as fixed as theirs was.This prevented me from ordination within the denomination but as most churches in US at that time were pre-mil,I had to learn to live with it.Eagle, this I mention only to illustrate that our differences,such as they are,should be about doctrinal matters and not personality and behavior. By all means,we should bring to light,abusers etc and name them if necessary but it’s not their doctrine that’s caused this,it’s their Sin..As I wrote previously,folk like Lloyd Jones,Packer,Stott etc were of the Reformed part of the church..and though you may not like Jonathan Edwards etc,his contribution to the church of his day,like Spurgeon was immense.. In this day and age,doctrine has given way to experience and is wrongly seen as the cause of such problems that individual churches and movements have displayed…I am only too aware that it’s ‘heat and light’ that we need in our churches,light of the Word and heat of the Spirit.one without the other is leads to dryness and deadness…. Eagle..I don’t normally write this much on this blog as I prefer to read what others like yourself have to contribute ..Dee and Deb have done an excellent job with this blog and I admire them for it…
    Thanks for your posts Eagle… Much appreciated.
    GM
    Thanks for invite but these days I live in Florida but do come to Virginia from time to time to visit my daughter and family…

  107. GM wrote:

    . In this day and age,doctrine has given way to experience and is wrongly seen as the cause of such problems that individual churches and movements have displayed…I am only too aware that it’s ‘heat and light’ that we need in our churches,light of the Word and heat of the Spirit.one without the other is leads to dryness and deadness

    Thanks for leaving a helpful comment. I especially appreciate your point about the need for the heat of the Spirit and the light of the Word and agree that those are lacking. I disagree that doctrine has given way to experience in the YRR churches, though I may have misunderstood what you were saying on that.

    I agree that doctrine has yielded to experience in some churches, though I have not seen as much of that personally. I think that a healthy church will have both doctrine that is derived closely from the Word and also the experiences of the people God has placed in the body to minister to one another.

    My observation is that the problem of the YRR is that the Gospel has been nullified by extra provisions that are not gospel but law. That, ISTM, is the fundamental error of the Galatian church, and I believe that the lesson from Galatians should be applied to the extra doctrines of high Calvinism and patriarchy which are affirmed in these churches as primary doctrines.

    That is very problematic along with the ESS doctrine which they teach is the historic view of the Trinity. A dissenter is subject to “additional teaching” or social pressure at the very least. A dissenter who is persistent though respectful and discreet is subject to church discipline for affirming doctrines which were perfectly acceptable in the evangelical church 50 years ago.

    Those are my biggest concerns along with the alarming idolatry of celebrities in “reformed” churches who criticize others for being man-centered. I believe that the nullification of the gospel and the idolatry of men are very serious issues that no one in these churches sees as a problem. They see them as successes.

  108. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Lucy Pevensie:

    “Also, women are just DONE with the complemetarian philosophies; I think many of the young adults (both female and male) are seeing that they really don’t want that type of relationship with their future spouses.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    wonderful news. what have you observed that makes you think this, though?

    My own young adults (3 in my family, my kids), and a number of their church friends. They spent their youth group years with us in an increasingly authoritarian setting before we moved to our current church. My daughter has great interest in pursuing a career and has no desire to become someone’s scullery maid. My sons have shared that they really don’t want a suppressed wife – where’s the energy in that kind of relationship, both trying to walk against the wind God blew into them as unique beings? They want mutual respect, mutual service, shared decision making, equal respect of expertise and opinions. Maybe these are just my wayward kids and their pals, but I see their eyes opening. They are watching too many girls wither away at home waiting for the perfect spiritual leader to come a-courting. They are seeing the failure of young men who thought they wanted to make church a vocation but can’t seem to make headway enough to support themselves as independent adults. It’s dawning on the wise ones that this teaching doesn’t pan out in real world relationships. And they are expanding their horizons as they age, meeting other believers from different backgrounds who are happy and fruitful and not embedded in patriarchal structures, and I believe they find that refreshing.

    Certainly there are many happily ensconced in the old circle. But I think the tide may be turning.

  109. Oh, and I forgot to add that we have met a number of couples coming to our current church home who departed other churches when the complementarian (cough cough patriarchal) teachings were introduced. They knew enough about The Lord, the Bible and each other to know that’s not how God had put their marriages together, and that trying to put that teaching into practice was not going to make them any fonder of one another.

  110.   __

    “Availed Of Grace?”

    hmmm…

    It is by faith, we are assured that for Christ’s sake we have a gracious God, just as Paul teaches: “Having been justified by faith, we have peace with God” [Rom. 5:1]. 

    God has graciously provided a way of escape of the wrath that is to come, He has foretold in the scriptures…

    Even though Noah preached his message of repentance for a hundred years, no one but seven personages gave accent to his message as to be saved.

    A church youth leader would do well to teach this, not to frighten, or preasure, but to warn and enlighten the young people in his or her presence to avail themselves of the grace of God, thus securing the disposition of their eternal souls.

    Please consult your bible for further details…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06tuvubUkzM

    ATB

    Sopy

  111. Those are my biggest concerns along with the alarming idolatry of celebrities in “reformed” churches who criticize others for being man-centered. I believe that the nullification of the gospel and the idolatry of men are very serious issues that no one in these churches sees as a problem. They see them as successes.

    Your thoughtful comments only serve to underline..the ones that Eagle made and which I agree..One of the unfortunate things in Reform churches is that ‘Law’ is emphasized more than ‘Grace’ .This finds a way into our individual lives unfortunately ,hence my remark about ‘Light’ & ‘Heat’.

  112. Gram3..

    Sorry…my first paragraph of course should be in quotes…it’s yours…

    One of these days I shall get the hang of this..
    Comes with not posting enough… I prefer to read than write these days..I have so much still to learn

    GM

  113. @ Lucy Pevensie:

    “…both trying to walk against the wind God blew into them as unique beings?”
    ++++++++++++++++

    I LOVE that!!

    yes, these cultural gender politics are nonsense.

  114. My family and I attend a EFree Church. In fact, we have attended (in different parts of the country) three other ones. Two were fine, and in the middle doctrinally, but the current had a neocalvanist pastor. I finally resigned last December. I have been trying to explain to some of the people in the church that you cannot drift too far one way or the other.

  115. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    K.D. wrote:

    BTW- single malt cuts a cough like nothing else….

    Especially Laphroaig, as the phenols provide an additional germicide. (Not sure how that affects a viral cough, though, TBH.)

    Nonsense. Old Granddad has been,is, & ever shall be the Universal Panacea.
    (Splash of water, no ice).

  116. @ GM:

    GM thanks for your comments. let me also say that I am more middle of the road. i’m not interested in any agendas just a place that is fine with worshiping God. Here’s one thing that bothers me deeply. All these messes…are ministry opportunities that are being squandered and lost.

    1. The Evangelical Free Church Sean attended could approach him and apologize and try and work things out with him. They could seek his forgiveness for some of the crap written above. I’m looking forward to the next post to hear about a church hijacking.
    2. Dee’s former Senior Pastor at Providence Baptist still owes them and other people an apology for the cover up of sexual abuse. To this day he has not. How a man can teach and preach with so much blatant sin and refuse to own his part is beyond me.
    3. In my case I was unsuccessfully recruited to Redeemer Arlington which is led by Eric Simmons and is a former SGM church. I had a military officer who made a false accusation and use his rank to pull it off. His actions not only hurt me but brought my mother to tears. This is a ministry opportunity as well. And if resolved could show the strength of faith and what the power of faith can be.

    And yet none of these situations written above will probably be resolved. This is part of the reason why I have a growing feeling that American Christianity is an impotent faith system. Christians cause a lot of pain and refuse to own it up. I wonder if that’s a contributing factor to why so many people view Christians as being arrogant, condescending, rude, etc…

    I very much would love to be proven wrong. I really would…you know what that would do to my faith system? You know how that could improve and grow my faith?

    Consider…what would happen if the Senior Pastor from Providence Baptist, David Horner reached out to Dee Parsons and the boy who was sexually abused and sought their forgiveness? Would Dee have written half of the stories on this website? What would that do for the community of Raleigh?

    What would happen if the military officer who was a Care Group Leader in Redeemer Arlington contacted me and took ownership for his part of the mess that existed between us? What would happen if he wrote my Mom a letter apologizing for the pain he caused my family. If that happened would my Dad still think of evangelicals and Baptists as people who were happy that John F. Kennedy was killed in Dallas because they didn’t want a Catholic in the White House and had contempt for Catholics? If a military officer approached my family after causing it pain would it change my Dad’s vision of evangelical Christians?

    I really want to be proven wrong. I’m not griping on here to nurse a grudge and become more bitter. I’m just telling it like it is and I hope that some of the above can be rectified.

  117. Let me beat this drum again. It is possible to radically depart from all things evangelical. As we speak one of my grandchildren is ice skating (indoors) with the church youth group were they radically landed when they radically departed from radical nonsense. No way is she going to be taught what evangelicals are teaching about gender. I highly recommend radical departure is that is what your beliefs require.

  118. Eagle wrote:

    I really want to be proven wrong. I’m not griping on here to nurse a grudge and become more bitter. I’m just telling it like it is and I hope that some of the above can be rectified.

    Eagle…Thanks again for your comments…On the particular incidents that you quote, its obvious that both you and others have been hurt and for that I am deeply sorry… Having been down that road myself, I know how hurtful these things are and how long they linger…We left our E-Free church in the midst of turmoil and upheaval, not thankfully this time,directed at us but at the Pastor, a close friend.
    Eagle, it has been my experience that while hoping that forgiveness comes from a particular church ,that never happens. We can blame-denominations etc and even our local church for allowing and sometimes fostering situations that cause folk like us to leave fellowships,but take it from me Eagle,whether its in the UK or US, its normally individuals that consciously or sub consciously cause the hurt etc…
    I dont blame the E-Free for what happened to our Pastor,although it could be argued that most Evangelical churches,do not have the mechanism for handling dissent and we revert to privacy and confidentiality to hide situations and trust that the leadership in whatever form that may take will handle it…
    We preach Forgiveness & Restoration but rarely practice it…We don’t know how to handle moral situations in our fellowships. We either come down heavy-handed or just simply ignore them..Blogs like the WW have revealed,the unmentionable and horrors that some folk have and are still going through…
    I shy away from commenting on individual situations Eagle because I don’t know all the facts.I trust folk like yourself,Deb & Dee,because what you write seems to reflect a ‘teachable’ spirit in these matters.
    I am not in a place physically or spiritually to discern all of the circumstances etc that come into play in a given situation, I have enough of a challenge daily to search out my own heart.. I have never been one to give proxy-counseling ..what an enormous responsibility that surely is.. My prayer is that D&D and others like yourself can offer to hurting folk the balm and consolation that they need…while at the same time,asking God to keep you fresh and open to the leading of God’s Spirit in what you say and write.
    Thank you again Eagle for your correspondence..My,I have written more on this blog the last few days than I ever have.
    Hope my words have helped,not hurt

    GM

  119. Sean’s experience sounds similar to a friend of the same age from Chicago.

    My mother was saved in a Free church in California in the late 60’s and attended another Free church in Oregon in the next few years. Her experience seemed very baptist and she got into Gothard in Oregon. My parents met in a Gothard influence baptist church after she returned to California.

    Fast forward about thirty years and my husband and I started attending a Free church in Utah. Contemporary worship service, grace filled flexible pastor, and a very diverse congregation from all kinds of backgrounds. We have been at our current church for almost seven years now and the church has doubled in attendance to about 1,000 a Sunday or so. I have always wondered if our church is just an anomaly and is the way it is because of our location and pastor. Pastor has been with the church more than twenty years and he is opposed to legalism strongly. Utah has limited options for non Mormons so many flavors of Christians end up together.

  120. I attended an E-Free from 2008-2012. During that time it became increasingly Neo Cal. From Piper, Driscoll and Dever books used in small group to a whole series on peacemaking and church authority. Sometime after we left I noticed it had become affiliated with 9Marks.

    After we moved we attended a Baptist church. Its new pastor is a Neo Cal youngster. He hid it from the congregation, but in our weekly book study he used a Piper book then a 9Marks books. When he said David Platt was our next author I asked point blank if he were a Neo Cal. He admitted it freely that he was a Lordship Salvationist, T4G attender and his favorite authors were Piper, Dever, Platt and DeYoung. I expressed my dismay and pointed out that Calvinism is Theology, not the inspired word of God. That went no where so we left.

    That took us to another Efree. We immediately saw the same Neo Cal signs and left after four weeks. We have been home on Sundays now for exactly one year.

    Thanks for this site. I’ve never commented, but you have been a tremendous help.

  121. Gram3 wrote:

    I think it is fair to liken the current Calvinistas to the Primitive Baptists or other hyper-calvinist sects in the sense that they are truly parasitic. They are not builders; they are hostile takeover artists.

    They are viruses infecting a cell/church.

    A virus enters a cell, hijacks the cell’s DNA, and uses the cell to reproduce itself into millions of viruses, which then erupt from the now-dead cell to enter other cells….

  122. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    They are viruses infecting a cell/church.

    It certainly seems that way, and it creates a fever in some to spread it everywhere. It has been personally very discouraging to see the path taken by conservative evangelicalism the past 3 or 4 decades. I think that Gothardism in its various forms has infected just about everything. And to think I used to believe he was so flaky that no one would take him seriously.

  123. Gram3 wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    They are viruses infecting a cell/church.

    It certainly seems that way, and it creates a fever in some to spread it everywhere.

    A virus exists only to replicate its RNA as many times as possible.

    Kind of like a pyramid scheme. Sheep saving more Sheep whose only purpose is to save still more Sheep…

  124. I believe it was the EV Free church that put our two oldest daughters off of church completely, forever. Before we went to ev free we were with a good church that had a great youth group. And our kids seemed to be thriving in their faith. But the youth pastor unexpectedly left, and suddenly things started getting purpose driven, so we left.

    We did not realize it at first, but the ev free church we began visiting shortly afterward was “doing life” and purpose driven, and had centered all their home groups around discussing popular self-help books rather than fellowship and Bible study. No one in the church brought their Bibles on Sunday because sermons were becoming group pep talks rather than Bible centered preaching/teaching. We later discovered that the church was founded shortly before we came visiting, and that it was just after a split that divided the church three ways, and became three different churches. Just after we came was when the pastor started to ease the congregation into the progressive track it was on. Once we saw the new direction it was headed – we left.

    It was clear the church was not calvinist though. In fact the congregation was very works oriented and was too busy to spend any time at all with God, but always under the guise of “serving the Lord.”

    Let me tell you what I experienced during our brief stint there. Firstly the church was gossip riddled. And one night, after a woman brought her daughter to the women’s group for prayer because she found out her daughter was using drugs; everyone spread it around the whole church that it was me who brought my daughter, when it absolutely wasn’t. I thought, whoever brought their daughter, in such an instance, ought to have had her anonymity respected by the group, but it wasn’t, and instead it was turned into a complete slander against me. When I called the pastor one night because I needed help and our family was in a crisis, I was told that maybe we should find another church. I later found out that our daughter was being led in eastern meditation in the youth group. And I also saw the worship leader out getting drunk one weekend. Later, since we were with their private Christian school, we got to witness the school attempting to steal money from a non profit organization under the guise of serving at its fund raising event. I warned the school administrator and the non profit organization what the school was doing would lose the non profit its fire works sales booth grandfathered status with the city we lived in, but no one listened to my advise, despite that fact that I knew everything about the non profit, because I reported about the non profit as a journalist for the local newspaper.

    I also recently found out that Chuck Swindoll has gone emergent.

    All in all our experience was not what we expected at all.

  125. My parents currently drive me to their EFCA church every Sunday. They’re not the type that really cares about doctrine so much as pragmatics (we initially started going there because of the disability ministry which helped my brother and I).

    However, over the past few years that church and I have been heading in separate directions. It is becoming FAR more Calvinistic and fundamentalistic than before; last Sunday the substitute pastor openly bashed Catholics in the sermon while extolling John Knox, that kind of thing never happened before (it was more of a Billy Graham-esque broad evangelicalism, and the former pastor quoted Chesterton and Lewis).

    In the meantime I, as a result of my study of church history and my trips abroad, have found myself becoming more and more Orthodox in terms of what I believe. (I’d like to be Antiochian or Coptic. The Antiochian church in the area has some parishioners whose family members have been martyred by ISIS).

    I briefly hoped maybe I could convince some of the folks at my parents’ church to see things the way I do. There have been entire evangelical megachurches that have become Catholic or Orthodox in the past. But now with the ever-accelerating trend toward Calvinism I don’t think that’ll be possible in this case. My parents already know that I’m not 100% on board with their church or what the pastors there are saying. I’m going to tell them that I’m going to start checking out other churches soon, and maybe I’ll invite them to come along.

  126. Pingback: Revelation! #3: "The Great Unveiling" by Gary Inrig, Loma Linda Word Search