"SGCI has been adversely affected by the economic downturn, negative publicity from litigation, and the departure of over 30 member churches from the association."
2014 Audited Financial Statement (page 19)
What a difference five years can make. In early 2010 the speakers for the upcoming SBC Pastors Conference were announced, and lo and behold C.J. Mahaney had been selected to address Southern Baptist pastors who would be congregating in Orlando for the SBC annual meeting (see our post Mahaney's Meteroric Rise in the SBC). Perhaps this was his reward for making such generous donations to the SBC's flagship seminary (link).
Much has transpired with Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) since then, as we have noted in our archived posts. SGM, which fondly called itself a ''family of churches' until fairly recently, has experienced the withdrawal of 30 member churches, including the flagship congregation, Covenant Life Church.
Brent Detwiler recently called attention to the release of the latest financial statements in this post. From time to time we have taken a look at SGM's financial statements, and we believe the numbers definitely paint a picture of what has been happening with this church planting network. We will be presenting some specific financial numbers in the remainder of the post, and here are the links to the audited financial statements from which this information was obtained.
Let's begin by looking at…
TOTAL ASSETS
2007 – $5,526,129
2008 – $5,661,197
2009 – $5,606,584
2010 – $5,714,748
2011 – $5,853,353
2012 – $4,942,485
2013 – $3,442,165
2014 – $2,827,050
As you can clearly see, SGM's assets have decreased substantially over the last eight years.
Addendum: A commenter (pK47tech) made this insightful correction to the previous statement:
The statement is somewhat misleading. The assets have decreased over the last 3 years, as they were general growing slowly in the period 4 to 8 years ago.
The financial statements, particularly the most current one, provide an explanation of why the assets have been drastically depleted. Now let's take a look at Total Revenue for the same time frame – 2007 to 2014.
TOTAL REVENUE
2007 – $8,037,415
2008 – $8,281,395
2009 – $7,242,907
2010 – $6,890,978
2011 – $6,761,773
2012 – $4,702,559
2013 – $2,920,626
2014 – $2,538,506
Incredibly, the total revenue for 2014 was $5,498,909 less than what it was in 2007. As the current financial statement indicates, over 30 member churches have left the association, which has severely impacted SGCI's revenue. Now let's take a look at what member churches have contributed to SGM (now SGCI) over the last eight years.
CONTRIBUTIONS FROM MEMBER CHURCHES
2007 – $3,383,748
2008 – $3,540,660
2009 – $3,502,414
2010 – $3,356,829 ($107,798 temporarily restricted)
2011 – $3,178,665 ($24,227 temporarily restricted)
2012 – $2,262,063 ($78,436 temporarily restricted)
2013 – $1,248,658 ($47,054 temporarily restricted)
2014 – $1,181,898
Another tremendous decline… It's hard to believe the 30+ churches that left SGCI appear to have been contributing over $2,000,000 each year to what was then SGM.
Another major source of revenue is 'Contributions – other'. According to an explanation in the financial statement, this amount consists mostly of conference administrative services, royalty and rental fees.
CONTRIBUTIONS – OTHER
2007 – $2,606,493
2008 – $1,987,532
2009 – $1,564,607
2010 – $1,719,585 ($197,072 temporarily restricted)
2011 – $1,641,136 ($29,315 temporarily restricted)
2012 – $892,268 ($21,500 temporarily restricted)
2013 – $543,399
2014 – $411,292 ($2,390 temporarily restricted)
This item (Contribution – other) has also dropped drastically. There is a $2,195,201 difference between the amount in 2007 and in 2014. We are not sure what 'conference administrative services' entails, but it is obvious that SGCI has experienced a big setback. Or perhaps their royalties have greatly declined. Since these figures are lumped together, it is difficult to determine why there has been a drastic decrease.
Now let's take a look at 'Sales' over the last eight years.
SALES
2007 – $744,384
2008 – $1,141,701
2009 – $895,086
2010 – $662,290
2011 – $688,542
2012 – $468,621
2013 – $367,184
2014 – $277,109
What a tremendous difference between 2008 sales ($1,141,701) and 2014 sales ($277,109). Was this amount representative of book sales??? Perhaps Living the Cross Centered Life and/or Mahaney's Humility book?
Conference receipts have also declined over the last eight years.
CONFERENCE RECEIPTS
2007 – $618,999
2008 – $755,530
2009 – $733,940
2010 – $363,307
2011 – $741,283
2012 – $279,617
2013 – $339,663
2014 – $132,297
Finally, here is another category that had an impact on Revenue.
OTHER INCOME
2007 – $390,123
2008 – $559,261
2009 – $483,359
2010 – $564,367
2011 – $382,367
2012 – $523,899
2013 – $298,209
2014 – $445,550
The decline in Revenue has obviously had a terrible impact on Expenses, and there has been a huge reduction in how much is spent on church missions, as well as other expense items.
According to the 2014 financial statement, Sovereign Grace Churches, Inc. has had some challenges, but the leadership believes their organization is 'well positioned for future ministry and growth'. (see screen shot below)
Sovereign Grace Churches, Inc. is trying to be accountable by being affiliated with GuideStar. However, the Guidestar page for SGCI states:
Organization has not reported Revenue & Expense data to GuideStar
Now that the 2014 financial statement has been made available, perhaps the SGCI leadership will submit the audited information to GuideStar.
We hope our readers will have time to peruse these financial statements for themselves. We would be very interested in your analysis. Can SGCI make a comeback? It will be fascinating to see what happens with this organization in 2015.
Lydia's Corner: Exodus 4:1-5:21 Matthew 18:1-20 Psalm 22:19-31 Proverbs 5:15-21
First?
@ (Done) Just Watching: Congrats!
:-p
The link is wrong for the 2012/2011 report. Here’s the correct one: http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/file.axd?file=2013/1/SGM%20Audited%20Financial%20Statements%20FY%202012.pdf
The reason I noticed is because I was comparing the “Investments” over the years. I always find it fascinating when non-profit organizations have substantial investments. In 2011, they had $2,455,106 in long-term investments, but by 2014 that had gone down to $446,332. If I worked there, I’d be looking for another job.
The statement is somewhat misleading. The assets have decreased over the last 3 years, as they were general growing slowly in the period 4 to 8 years ago.
Certainly not the best looking financials I’ve seen. I’d be looking for a real job if I were one of the Interns. I wonder if the trend in the parent organization reflects conditions in the individual churches?
This is what happens when your Fearless Leader covers up serial child predation. And worse, neither he nor his cronies have the stones to come clean.
@ Gram3:
Well just like the lawsuit we’ll see if CJ Mahaney believes the Lord is sovereign! At this rate of decline maybe he can be be working the drive through at McDonalds in a year, working on his speech, “When a fast Food worker loses heart!” 😉
So long C.J. Mahaney!
I would love to have a statistician, mathematician, or a statistics analyst play with the numbers and do some forecasting. That could be fascinating. And since the Neo-Calvinists like to create their own propaganda (hence the ESV Bible) maybe they can re-write Isaiah 66 (the basis for Mahaney’s book on Humility if I am not mistaken) for life in the fast food industry.
Ok, all satire and sarcasm aside. You know the sad thing about CJ Mahaney is similar to Mark Driscoll. This is a guy who had an epic failure who preached about confessing your sins, repentance, etc… When his sin over took him it was an opportunity to come clean, confess and show the world repentance. He had an opportunity that could have been beautiful. Who would have forgiven him if he did confess and handled things in a dignified and sincere manner? THAT is what the church wanted. ITS what the church needed. Instead he ran – like the coward he is – and was enabled by Mark Dever, etc… in the process. Half of the ill feelings I have about Capital Hill Baptist are due to their enabling and propping up the CJ Mahaney circus. Mark Dever committed an epic fail as a man in letting CJ flee his church and take refuge there.
My question is this…when is Mark Dever going to be a man, act like a man, and repent for being a wuss and letting CJ take refuge at CHBC? When is Dever going to go before the CLC congregation and get down on his knees and plead for forgiveness to those who were spiritually abused, mocked, and hurt by his efforts at coddling a habitual liar. My anger is over how people were treated. Christianity IS NOT a two tiered faith system. The Pastors should lead by example and if they can’t they need to shut up, step away from the podium and never give another sermon.
Wow Deebs did you see you guys are short of 15 million hits? That is beautiful!! Leave it to two women in North Carolina to have more b@### than CJ Mahaney, Mark Driscoll, Mark Dever, DA Carson and Tim Challies combined! Keep preaching girls! You have this man's attention! 😀
One last thought…too many of these guys from Mark Dever to John Piper preach a theology system that is too penis based. Being a man has nothing to do with having a penis. Whales have a penis. So do giraffes, tigers, bears, etc… Being a man is taking responsibility for your actions, stepping up to the plate, coming clean and owning your mistakes. There are many atheists, and non Christians who have a better idea of what being a man is, while many of these clowns who preach about being a man don’t even come close. They are not even in the ballpark. Ok…nuff said. I’m done with my rant.
@Eagle, beautifully put.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
When he gets found out. As sad as it is, the same thing is probably happening in another big church somewhere else. Will that leader get caught?
@ Elizabeth Lee:
Thanks for letting us know. I have made the correction. 🙂
@ pk47tech:
Agreed. I like the way you put it, and I'm adding your comment to the post.
@ Eagle:
Actually Eagle, Mahaney's big schtick was running around bragging about what a horrible sinner he was. It was a constant stream of "I am the worst sinner I know". It was meant to make him appear more pious, but we should have believed him.
@ loren Haas:
'So long' or 'farewell'?
Deb
I love it when you do these *numbers* posts. In today’s megachurch group expansions, money tells the story. It is really sad. I believe that had Mahaney and his friends behaved in a transparent fashion and asked for forgiveness, this would not have happened. Humility plays far better than hubris, something the celebrity crowd still does not understand.
And Mahaney is the one who wrote the book on humility.
Deb wrote:
And there are a number of churches in our area who still recommend it, along with The Cross Centered Life, while knowing of the SGM situation. That shows poor judgement as well as a kick in the face to those deeply wounded.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Perhaps you may find them if only you probe a little deeper. Repentance and rules are for pewpeons. Same for certain male equipment, judging by the facts we have. By facts I mean the actual statements and public actions of the Gospel Glitterati.
Eagle wrote:
Not to single out Dever, I think that your scenario will happen about the time that Crossway makes the contracts with their “talent” available in the interest of transparency. I suspect that there is a broad non-disparagement clause, or something like it, in those contracts. It is evident that there is substantial cross-selling by their “talent” so any decrease in the prestige of one becomes a drag on the others. Must maintain face to maintain sales. That’s the only explanation I have for what is otherwise inexplicable behavior by Christian leaders.
Eagle wrote:
Nonsense. Organized Christianity certainly is a tiered system. I think you are referring to the faith and body instituted by Christ. Any resemblance between the two is becoming increasingly coincidental.
Second, 1 Timothy ends at 2:15. The leaders will determine what the Bible means when it talks about leaders and sheep and lording over and above reproach and so forth. Perspicuity is so not in style these days.
They call themselves a family of churches, yet have created a Book of Church Order? Sounds like a denomination rather than an affiliation to me.
Eagle wrote:
That’s not a rant. Seems about right to me. Real men and real women act like the True Human, the Second Adam, the Christ who has redeemed all who are in him. When they act like Christ is when they are manly just like when I act like Christ is when I am most womanly.
Actually the masculinism they advocate is the norm in history and in the world because the norm for fallen humanity is to assert our power over others for our own benefit. The modern West is an exception to that rule, and that is why they are so hung up on being anti-culture. They don’t really mean that. They are only talking about the modern Western culture where women are fully recognized as equals. Instead of talking about female subordination, a real Christian man should be shouting from the housetops about trafficking and female circumcision and all manner of oppression of both men and women.
Getting personal, David Platt, if you or one of your assistants is reading, try applying this Radical concept to your own teaching about women. We’ll start believing you mean what you say about female exploitation overseas when you start talking about the *reason* for female exploitation and child exploitation everywhere and the way that you have supported it with your disgusting theology of gender and faux manliness.
This is not difficult except if someone needs for it to be difficult because they have other issues and other agendas.
dee wrote:
Agreed, and it would have been a great object lesson in what the Gospel is all about. Christ came to remove our shame *and* our guilt. But these guys are locked into a shame culture rather than a Gospel culture, despite all their words. In a shame culture, one must remove all evidence of the shame by whatever means necessary. In the faith instituted by Christ, one acknowledges the guilt that we all have and receive the forgiveness he has secured.
WRT the numbers, the problems go beyond just the numbers as they stand. I don’t think there is a way to turn the brand and by that the numbers around. The basic product was Mahaney, and the only viable path to recovery was to wait for the whole thing to blow over. I believe that the utter implosion of Mars Hill in the wake of the Morales trial has made that path for SGM increasingly unlikely. The two situations amplify one another, at least to people outside the bubble. I actually think that Driscoll made the most rational (though not Christian) decision. Go all in with what you really are instead of trying to pretend to be something you’re not.
In response to Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist’s comment that And worse, neither he nor his cronies have the stones to come clean, Gram3 wrote:
Grams, I assume you considered the implications of asking a Proctologist to probe a little deeper in search of stones?
I’m seeing something from Jackass TV here.
@ Gram3:
Gram what I was trying to say is that there should not be an exception to the rules. By all means Pastors should be held to a higher standard. They should be living their life with full transparency. The problem is a two tiered system is emerging where the peons on the bottom are being disciplined where the pastors are avoiding discipline. What is enforced on people in SGCI, CLC, CHBC, etc… doesn't apply to Mahaney, Dever, Harris, etc… That's what I was aiming at. Sorry if I was not more clear.
So SGM is being HUMBLED (without the TM) in the pocketbook?
Wonder how they’re going to spin this?
Rejoice because the chocolate ration of twenty grams has been Increased to ten?
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
From a colonoscopy veteran:
The Alien Abduction Special isn’t that bad in itself. The prepwork is what’s BAD.
Gram3 wrote:
The Axioms of an Honor/Shame Culture:
1) If nobody knows of my sin, I Am Not Shamed.
2) Dead Men Tell No Tales.
And this explains a LOT of the blood feud/honor killing violence you get in Honor/Shame tribal cultures.
@ Eagle:
It is not you. I was playing off of your comment and agreeing in my usual disagreeable way. Need a tongue-in-cheek tag. Agree totally that we have a tiered system. That’s the way the world operates, and I think we agree the church should look more like Jesus than the world.
Eagle wrote:
You forgot horses. (“EEYUP!”)
And there’s a very appropriate Dr Demento flashback titled “Penis Envy” sung by a “Sue Loo(?)” but I can’t find it on YouTube — it’s a common title there.
I think this is the one (the age and adding “Dr Demento” to the title search make it likely), but I can’t get it to play on my hookup. Listen at own risk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zf-T7m808DE
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
Even more fascinating when End Of The World cults and best-selling authors have substantial LONG-TERM investments.
Eagle wrote:
Rank Hath Its Privileges.
Highborn and Lowborn in the never-ending Game of Thrones.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Well, Dr. Fundy was seeing no evidence of stones, so I just suggested he take a more thorough look. Why, whatever did you think I meant? [innocent smiley]. I make it a practice never to consider implications. It makes thinking so tedious and pontificating so unfun.
I shall not thank you for making me gaggle Jackass TV. Yes, I do live in a cultural cave. And another thing. You should be thankful that your local public servants did not install speed cliffs but merely a speed limit in the city center/centre to control the reckless speeders there.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Now, HUG, they have been very clear that their rank is not for their own benefit but for ours. Further, any privileges which we perceive they have exist merely so that they can serve us more while loving us well in the most winsome and humble way. Being a leader is a Burden, and we need to be a Joy to them. If I have got some of this wrong, perhaps a veteran of the SGM system will correct me.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
“+10”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
True that.
@ Gram3:
You have been so gifted with words, Gram. And I am so blessed when reading them. 🙂
Victorious wrote:
Thank you, though surely you know that some would say instead of a blessing I’m a riot. A regular riot. Google that, Nick.
Gram3 wrote:
“In the Name of THE PEOPLE!”
— Comrade Stalin, Comrade Pol Pot, Comrade Kim Jong-Un…
Gram3 wrote:
We have them, too.
I don’t live in Edinburgh. When I visit, I nearly always do so by train.
CJ, welcome to the Law of Gravity. What goes up must come down.
Think of those children you abused your power with, and know what humiliation looks like, each and every year you don’t repent. That kind of cross does not come equipped with a resurrection. Pull the ripcord if you will, the golden parachute is getting heavier…welcome to the spin-cycle. Reaping a harvest of what you have sown, God (our Lord Jesus Christ the Head of the Church) will not be mocked by you or your clones… Now the whole world will behold the FRUIT of your nature and who is behind your strings. Ouch-CA-Bible!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
The prep work is horrible…..last time, six hours in the bathroom….
@ Eagle:
That’s my beat. Unless they can alter the current trendline, they’ll drop to just 1.2 million in revenue by the end of 2016. and then plummet to under $300,000 for 2017. 90% certainly on the trendline. Of course, that’s why they’re taking steps to reverse it. But no amount of cost-cutting and reorganization matters if there is no revenue.
rike wrote:
Agreed. I don’t see a plausible path to recovery. I think that SGM was a theological bubble in the economic sense, and the crowd of irrational and emotional buyers has moved on. Plus, the main theological draw for SGM has been exposed in a really ugly way at Mars Hill that was brought down by the actions of relative nobodies who were *not* in the Gospel Glitterati. I don’t think that a comeback can be orchestrated for C.J. because too many people will want answers. Or already know all they need to know about shepherding in its various flavors. I wonder if the moment hasn’t also passed for the Gospel Glitterati, too.
One possibility that has nearly zero probability humanly speaking is for C.J. to follow the Tylenol or New Coke example. Admit the very real problem, place responsibility where it lies or take responsibility regardless, and then take steps to remedy the problem with plausible assurances that It Will Never Happen Again. Don’t see that happening.
@ Gram3:
I think he was expecting All Mohler to save him. He sure had a lot of the celebs trekking to his hotel room church to praise his name. I just think CJ has much to offer them anymore but saving face.
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
One should note that most of SGM’s “assets” now is SGM’s share of the CLC Building in Gaithersburg. Sadly SGM isn’t using this building after Mahaney and company “fled” to Louisville to “save money.”
SGM’s share of the CLC building is due to SGM paying cash ($1.9M) to basically purchase part of the construction of the CLC building. An interesting point is that if SGM forces CLC to pay them back for this SGM will only get 45% of its value. If CLC forces the sale SGM would get 85% of its value.
Excluding the building and other furniture and fixtures, SGM is showing roughly $840K in cash/investments and notes receivable. That figure is worth about 3.5 months of expenses for SGM (not much of a reserve).
The current report estimates a deficit (net cash outflow) of $190K this year (2015) but wouldn’t put too much faith in that number. For 2014 they projected a deficit of $329K but actually had a deficit of $372K. Thus it wouldn’t surprise me if 2015’s deficit is higher than $190K.
It certainly looks like a group in decline.
I wouldn’t start looking for Mahaney to work at a fast food restaurant anytime soon. I am sure he made and took out plenty of money when times were better for SGM.
K.D. wrote:
Sorry for the above. K. D. is not 91 (I think). I am!
@ Eagle: if there were flaggs on this blogs comments,I would still be hitting the button. You are a disgrace to all things Holy. And the moderators should have removed such garbage!
david L wrote:
He is not a disgrace to all things holy. I think he has simply upset your sensibilities to something. What that something is can’t tell. Certain men, theology, the p(so I don’t go into moderation) word?
Or maybe you are upset by his definition of a man:
Eagle wrote:
@ david L:
david L wrote:
Thank you for that brilliant and insightful analysis as well as bringing our attention to the intriguing counterfactual you mentioned. Just to clarify, are you saying that the “leaders” are Holy and Eagle has profaned them? Or are you merely enraged at The Guy Behind the Curtain because he has deprived you of a flag with which to register your displeasure? Perhaps a visit from John Piper could soothe you? How can we help?
david L wrote:
Be forewarned that occasionally the moderators do remove garbage from the comments.
Mahaney claimed he wants to come clean on the sexual abuse scandal, but because of ongoing litigation (at that time) he was not free to tell his side of the story.
The lawsuit was dismissed over 6 months ago. We are still waiting to hear from Mr. Humility.
thouarttheman.org/2014/11/09/further-revelations-of-lies-abuse-and-cover-up-at-sgm
http://m.christianpost.com/news/sovereign-grace-sex-abuse-case-appeal-dismissed-by-marylands-court-of-special-appeals–122587/
Y’all, I come here in desperation. I have been working part-time since Thanksgiving and just got a promotion this week to full time. My husband and I have been barely squeaking by each month to pay rent but this time we just can’t do it. We will be evicted and homeless on Saturday afternoon if we can’t find the money. We are both working so hard, many many hours with no days off. I just don’t know what to do anymore. Once the paycheck from my promotion kicks in we will be able to pay all of our bills so that is an answer to prayers, just not soon enough. All I can do is ask for prayer right now that we would be able to withstand homelessness.
__
Wartburg Reader,
Would you trust an 501(c)3 religious non-profit organization that has changed it’s name many times: GOB/POD!PDI!SGM/SGCi ?
Apparently changed it’s religious associations several times as well ?
Apparently blackmailed a fellow man of the cloth, as associate ?
Apparently knowigly harbored and protected pedophiles ?
Apparently fled the state of Maryland under suspect conditions to possibly ‘avoid’ some type of prosecution ?
Benefit of the doubt?
hmmm…
Is this the kind of 501(c) religious organization you wish to associate your children in ‘attendance’ with?
Think Again?
(sadface)
Sopy
—
@ Mandy:
Praying…
(tears)
Sopy
—
david L wrote:
Goodness me, I can only assume you never read Mark Driscoll’s ‘William Wallace’ diatribes, which is where some of Eagle’s comments have their foundations… where he talks about women being ‘penis homes’. Please tell me it’s not that word you object to, when genitalia are the creation & gift of God himself.
@ Gram3:
I thought it was, “How can we serve you”? :o)
Perhaps David has a problem with the clinical terminology?
@ Mandy:
Praying you don’t get evicted, Mandy.
Praying, too, Mandy, that you get to stay in your home.
@ Mandy:
Please know that I am praying for you.
@ david L:
Goodness! You really seem bent out of shape and not only in this comment but in a couple of others. From what I can tell, you are in a “I don’t like any of you” frame of mind so we have somehow stepped on your scared cow.
You even got upset that someone said they were first to comment on a post. Really???
Since you are using a proxy server, you really, really don’t want anyone to know even which area the country that you live in. So, who is it that you are defending and why is Eagle, along with others on this blog, getting under your skin?
Instead of useless, throw away comments, why don’t you defend your point of view?
@ Mandy:
I am putting this as a prayer request at the top of the blog. Please, please let us know how things progress this weekend. I am so, so sorry.
Gram3 wrote:
If you are ever in the Raleigh area, I want to have dinner with you!
Florence in KY wrote:
You know, my mother who is in her 80s cannot manage her cell phone, email, or even Netflix. She has never turned on a computer. I pray that I will be as astute as you when (and if) I reach my 90s.
Have you ever thought about writing a post about anything? I think it would be awesome!!!
Bridget wrote:
He also uses a proxy server which means he doesn’t even want us to know what area of the country he lives in. That in itself is interesting.
dee wrote:
I smell Sock Puppet.
Or a Good Little Party Member doing a Black Op for his REAL Personal LOORD and Savior (the ManaGAWD).
Or a professional troll going up & down and to & fro seeing whoever he might PWN J00! ROFLMAO! ROFLMAO! ROFLMAO!
lydia wrote:
Shouldn’t that be “Praise His Holy Name” or “Praise His HUMBLE Name”?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I need to remember that phrase. It says it all. The question is: what hand is moving the puppet?
@ Mandy:
Praying you will be able to stay in your home and thanks for the raise you received.
@ dee:
That sounds like fun!
dee wrote:
Yes, you do, my mother is at 84 a computer ” geek” carries her laptop around like a loaf of bread….however she’d never write on a comment board like this….
dee wrote:
Well, that’s really brave of him isn’t it?
@ Mandy:
Praying for financial security and reprieve from the eviction threat.
I was there. I witnessed CJ Mahaney weeping, travailing, down on his knees with his face to the stage floor, giving the performances of his life while preaching about The Cross. No one…and he made certain of this…no one in SGM was more passionate, or cared more deeply about Jesus Christ and his death on the Cross than CJ Mahaney. And he, himself, made sure to demonstrate to all who watched him preach that he literally carried the death of Christ in his body. The grief. The pain. The sacrifice. Oh! What a deeply religious, devout, committed man of God CJ Mahaney was! He was so full of it – humility and death-to-self – that within SGM (and among his connections outside SGM) there could be no one else, in anyone’s mind, that was following Christ and emulating His death more than him.
“We will never move away from the Cross, only into a deeper understanding of the Cross.”
Talk comes easy when you’re up on a mountain, but when you’re down in the valley, that’s where faith is really put to the test.
What happened to all of CJ Mahaney’s humility and his cross-centered life? What became of all those emotional stage performances in which he convinced his audience he was the authentic, real deal?
Mahaney loves the sporting life but it seems he overlooked the essential rules of the game: You Must Tell The Truth. And Don’t Mess With God’s People.
It would seem Mahaney has always preferred his own set of rules and continues to live by them. Because if he had listened to what God’s people were saying and humbly submitted himself to that, we would all know that he came to the light.
But, consequently, the lights continue to go out on CJ Mahaney’s stage, and on SGM (SGCI).
@ Mandy:
Just a couple of practical suggestions. I don’t know your landlord situation, but generally a landlord does *not* want to proceed with an eviction unless it is absolutely necessary because it costs a lot of money to the landlord to evict and then replace the evicted tenant. Of course the landlord does not want to lead with that fact, but it is true. You might try taking some evidence of your new raise and employment status change to your landlord along with a definite plan by which you will pay off any arrearage. Your employer also does not want a homeless employee, so perhaps you can appeal to your employer to help with the evidence of your raise. I will pray that your landlord will grant you some grace.
Dear Mandy,
Please take care of yourself in this fearful and uncertain situation. I think Gram3 has some excellent suggestions for you — I hope you have the chance to give them a try.
Will pray for you and your husband.
Florence, I would LOVE to read a post by you re your life experiences and any wisdom you could share with us. I think it is amazing you comment here.
When my 80 year old late mother found out she could send an email to hundreds at once, she was never the same. Neither were our inboxes. :o)
@ Paula Rice:
It is weird. It almost seems that Bob Kauflin made out better than CJ with the move to Louisville. Kauflin and his son seem to have found opportunity and are very much involved at SBTS. One never hears of CJ.
But SG Louisville is doing the “community group” thing trying to bring in more folks:
http://www.sgclouisville.org/community-groups
Makes you want to warn people that they take notes on you and beware.
Lydia wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_eYSuPKP3Y
@ Gram3:
Great advice
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Salutation:
Your Holy Humbleness
Paula Rice wrote:
From my experience growing up, that says “Sociopath”.
Because no one is so Humble as a Sociopath, as Passionate as a Sociopath, Cares More Deeply than a Sociopath — until the instant you outlive your usefulness. CLICK ON! CLICK OFF! CLICK ON! CLICK OFF!
Paula Rice wrote:
“Sporting Life” as in “Fantasy Football Leagues”?
dee wrote:
Lol. Have GBTC call me. $10 says I can nail the physical address in a day or two.
@ Gram3:
This is wise advice. I would only add that in most states an eviction notice, when served, usually allows a period of time for reprieve until you actually need to move. Not sure where you are in the process.
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
Did you take a look at the cash flow statements? For the 2011-2014 period you mentioned, SGM was a net seller of their investments. They sold several million dollars of investments during that time frame.
*off-topic* but related to the Perry Noble thing up top…
I looked at what Noble did and I got the very, very strong impression that he’s trying to make himself over into a Baptist Joel Osteen. Because Osteen would do something like that–take the Ten Commandments and turn them into promises. Anyone else get that impression?
All I know about Perry Noble is in every picture of him I’v seen (usually behind a pulpit), he’s got this facial expression like he’s straining on the can with life-threatening constipation.
I don’t think I’ve ever posted here (too many side conversations for me to wade through normally), but I have a little info to add about this as a former SGM employee.
Re Contributions-Other: For several years SGM was contracted to administrate the T4G conference, do the recordings, and run the bookstore. With CJ not speaking at the 2014 one, they might have lost some or all of that contract. Also, CLC rented part of SGM’s space in their building for years but has been cutting back on that because of their own budget problems.
Re Sales, SGM used to sell teaching messages on cassettes, then CD and DVD, then MP3, but when Desiring God made all of their teaching free downloads, SGM followed, losing revenue on their web store. And then they cut back on their inventory, dropping all non-SGM-produced materials from their web store because Amazon could sell them cheaper and faster. Similarly, their conference bookstores were shrunk because of Amazon and fewer people buying materials on site.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
🙂
dee wrote:
“Oh Lord it’s hard to humble, when you’re perfect in every way…..”
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Sounds like moral fiber is not the only type of fiber he’s lacking
JeffT wrote:
You and me both mate … 🙂
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I certainly hope a proctologist only employs metaphorical nails while locating things. Otherwise this whole thing could get quite unpleasant.
JeffT wrote:
Well, the Gospel Glitterati exist in a bubble of unalloyed affirmation. Dissent, even when done with the best intents, will be perceived as a personal attack or an attack on their version of the gospel. They will then double-down and/or turn the table. Unless and until one of the Gospel Glitterati or their willing supporters has a wake-up call and sees their fallibility, then we can expect things to continue until they either implode, explode, or fizzle out. A system without negative feedback is a system destined to fail.
Ken wrote:
No, you’re not quite there yet, Ken. But I’m working on it! 🙂
@ Dave MacKenzie:
Hi Dave
Thank you for your information. What role did 30 churches leaving the network contribute to this situation? Do you think the move to Louisville helped to strengthen the financial well being of the organization? I think they said it they moved to “save money.? Did they save money?
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Here is my conjecture: he/she is writing from an office that had a dedicated server which is linked to the organization’s name. That’s how I was able to discover that one person sending me information was probably in the know. The server had the name of a famous megachurch.
Or because he is going after Eagle, he might be located in an area in which I could guess who he might be. My guess is that information would help me to figure out who is doing this.
Dave MacKenzie wrote:
It would be extremely interesting to learn what is going on with this. I thought SGM was handling all the arrangements and ticket sales. Is that no longer the case? Is SBTS doing it now? I am sure some in the SBC would be interested if they are.
@ dee:
It appears to me that Dave L is simply proving Eagle’s point about the bravery of some of the men within the Calvinista crowd 😉
Dee and Lydia, T4G is actually a 9Marks (Dever) conference. However, 9Marks has a very small staff so they contract out most of the work.
The first year, T4G 2006, John MacArthur’s organization Grace to You had the contract for the recording, and I think the bookstore; SGM won the bid for 2008-2012. I did the T4G audio recording and sermon video editing those years. I left the SGM staff in 2012 and didn’t go to T4G 2014.
I’m sure losing 30 churches significantly hurt both resource sales and conference attendance. I just wanted to explain some factors that weren’t as obvious!
Is there an interest in a legal update on creationist Kent Hovind? He’s facing another trial next month on mail fraud charges and he hasn’t finished serving his current sentence for tax fraud and structuring. I’ve been reading lots of filings and transcripts and I’ve listened to a few of his jail calls, and he’s gone full metal Sovereign Citizen.
@ Joe2:
I never understood why SGM owned so many townhouses. Wonder if the real estate market was up when they were sold.
Lydia wrote:
I wasn’t sure which way HUG would go with his Youtube link, but since he didn’t go here, I will…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCSA7kKNu2Y
😀
Deb, The townhouses were to house Pastors College students with large families. It must have been a good investment compared to having them all try to find rental houses every year. PC students with smaller or no families either rented in the Flower Hill Apartments or lived with CLC families. The townhouses were sold when the market was down, but SGM needed the cash and it didn’t make sense for them to be a remote landlord for non-PC-students after moving to Lousville.
In other news, a ferocious Shipping Forecast for the second night running here in Blighty.
There are warnings of gales in all areas. Hardest-hit are Bailey and Faeroes:
With a thought for those in peril on the sea.
If there’s one thing to be said about Mahaney, it’s that he was strategic. He didn’t make a move that that wasn’t thought out and part of a larger scheme of things. So, in my view, he knew what was going to happen to SGM in the wake of his leaving. He saw the writing on the wall, yet hoped his friends he had invested in outside of SGM would provide a safe haven for him while the SGM ship went down. Why else would he pack up everything and take his whole family with him? He knew everything was, by the time he left, inextricably linked to him and that slowly but surely SGM as a whole would suffer the consequences of his departure.
Which is why he’s remained quiet and hasn’t attempted to fight because he knew it was a House of Cards anyway.
But because of his pride and competitive spirit. my guess is he’s watched things collapse with a sense of glee and satisfaction. If he can’t win, no one can.
@ Dave MacKenzie:
Thank you for that very interesting background information. I had no idea. Does anyone know where to find detailed financial information on 9Marks? Aside from product sales, how do they generate their income? These kinds of arrangements should be more transparent, especially when SBC resources are being used for the benefit of SGM and CBMW and 9Marks and who knows who else.
@ Dave MacKenzie:
This is interesting, too, considering the agreement with SBTS to offer academic credit for PC classes. Once that got out some people in the SBC had a fit. Rightly so. What on earth was Al Mohler, the “brilliant scholar”, thinking????
That one just seemed to fade away with no explanation as if it never happened. Mohler is something else.
@ Gram3:
I agree and wonder now if SBTS resources are being used to prop up T4G.
mirele wrote:
As Judge Tim put it, when someone’s opening statement in court is reciting a Sovereign Citizen Manifesto, you know it’s going to be a long, bad day.
Gram3 wrote:
Just like Caligula, Nero, Domitian, Commodus, Euglabius, and the Kims of North Korea. (Such distinguished company!)
After actually witnessing what happens when you have two Narcissists under the same roof (AKA “The Universe cannot have two Centers”), I keep wondering what keeps these Gospelly Glitterati hanging out together. Is it like a crime syndicate where everybody gets something out of it? A feral dog pack where nobody’s showed any sign of weakness? Or both of the above like the Hell of Screwtape Letters?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Hovind’s last alleged* motion was 26 pages of Sovereign Citizen boilerplate. Literally. I realized, based on the changing fonts throughout the document (as well as the fact that the motion *made no sense*) that the motion was copy/pasted from elsewhere. Or in this case, over a half-dozen elsewheres. Ninety minutes of Google Fu and I had most of it chased down.
*So far as I know, this masterpiece has not yet popped up in the court filings.
Bridget wrote:
Best laugh of today.
mirele wrote:
Hovind did a good job in leaving a void that only Ken Ham could fill!
Paula Rice wrote:
That is a great analysis and seems to be true. Do you think he knew that Grant Layman would confess what he did in court?
@ Mandy:
Praying here, Mandy.
@ Bridget:
Yes. I would add that consulting with legal aid is a good step as well. They are usually very much on top of landlord-tenant issues and familar with local/state laws.
Gram3 wrote:
See, it’s people like you that make it so hard to practice medicine these days. If the doctor says its good for you, its good for. Suck it up.
Gram3 wrote:
It appears that 9Marks is set up as an entity integrated within the church, meaning it can hide under the church’s exemption from having to disclose their financial information in a Form 990. So they only have to tell you what they want you to know. Here’s a link where they discuss this:
http://9marks.org/article/journalchurch-mercy-ministry-integrated-auxiliary/
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
You’ll have to count me in with Gram3. I would get irritated to no end when my Grandparents would *never* question the doctors about anything.
We might have to rename you Dr./Pastor . . . etc.
JeffT wrote:
I suspected something like that because I’ve seen that tactic used before. I don’t understand why a Christian organization thinks it is a good thing to be so evasive and non-transparent. I understand why it is expedient, but it doesn’t seem to me to be the way that churches and church-related organizations should operate, and there is no reason operationally to be so secretive.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
People like me make it hard to do most everything.
Bridget wrote:
Like dictators’ goon squads everywhere, they are very brave when fighting and destroying enemies who cannot fight back.
Bridget wrote:
Like dictators’ goon squads everywhere, they are very brave when fighting and destroying enemies who cannot fight back.JeffT wrote:
Doesn’t that sort of arrangement just ooze “Corruption Coverup”?
mirele wrote:
Re-iteration:
As Judge Tim once put it, when someone’s opening statement is reciting 26 pages of Sovereign Citizen Manifesto…
@ Gram3:
This kind of behavior by 9 Marks reminds me of how the Mormon faith handles its finances. Its closed, no transperancy, etc… That is one of the marks of a cult in my book. That is one of the take aways I learned from Mormonism. This thread says a couple of things about the Mormon church not being transperant. Compare and contrast this with 9 Marks.
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon565.htm
This is good as well….
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1028449,1028871
@ Eagle:
Since you have lived in or near D.C., do you know if 9Marks is funded like the central LDS is? Does anyone have any idea how much Dever actually makes from various sources? Also, do you think that the political environment of D.C. leaks into the church-as-hierarchical organization and ongoing campaign paradigm in 9Marks/Founders and SGM? That view just seems so much more like the world than the church since it is based on power structures and methods, including pretty overt propaganda literature and events.
Gram3 wrote:
I’m a “veteran” of an insufferable 9 Marks church in Silicon Valley. So let me give it a try. (Although I would never correct you, dearest Gram 3 who makes all of the wiser.)
With regards to pastors/elders the dissenter/legitimate questioner:
*Will be accused of ‘bringing an accusation against an elder without cause’;
*Told they are ‘unsubmissive’;
*Be read Scripture that they’re not really ‘a believer’, are destined for Hell, are deceived and should be read out of the church.
*And the spin doctors (“pastors/elders”) will read a lying story about you before the church and order that you be excommunicated/shunned.
Mandy wrote:
I would suggest you contact the (free) program Debtors Anonymous www dot debtors anonymous dot org They are in most major cities. They also have phone in meetings which you can find online. They have a variety of tools, and people who have struggled with debt and/or underearning, including evictions.
Michaela wrote:
@Mandy,
Link for the free 12-step program that deals with money issues:
http://www.debtorsanonymous.org/
Michaela wrote:
Caligula, Nero, Domitian, Commodus, and Euglabius all ruled in the name of the Senate and People of Rome.
Comrade Lenin, Comrade Stalin, Comrade Mao, Comrade Pol Pot, the Kims of North Korea, and a lot of Third World Dictators of the last century ruled “In the Name of The PEOPLE”. All for the Good of the Collective People; not so good for the individual population units.
Ahhh, yes, H.U.G.
A real list of meanies. And how could I forget Stalin. Under him the majority of my Russian grandparents’ families died.
Michaela wrote:
how to find a meeting: http://www.debtorsanonymous.org/admin/index.php/find
(they have helpful things like “Pressure Relief Meetings” to take the pressure off and come up with an action plan, review spending plans, etc. You could ask for an emergency pressure relief meeting. Gram3 was correct in the advice she also gave you earlier about landlords not wanting to evict people etc)
Gram3 wrote:
That’s one of the lovable things about you, Gram3!
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
@Todd,
Just a note from Northern California to thank you for the stand that you took to do ‘the right thing’ and the price you paid. I was recently excommunicated and ordered to be shunned from my 9 Marks church here in Silicon Valley where I had been a member for 8+ years. My “crime”? I’d inadvertently discovered (while doing a project for a former prosecutor) that a fellow church member was on Megan’s List of sex offenders.
When I contacted my church’s four pastors/elders they met with me, defended the sex offender (it turns out that he’s a long time personal friend of theirs), and the entire meeting was a nightmare for me. The senior pastor demanded to know why I was using the term ‘sex offender’ (I explained I didn’t even it and that under the criminal code there are ‘sex offenses’ and people found guilty of those offenses are called ‘sex offenders’ in the criminal code). The associate pastor demanded to know if I’d prayed for the sex offender (he’d been convicted and imprisoned for child porn). Me: “Have you prayed for all of those little children who were being r*ped and s*d*mized and were victims of felony sex crimes and other felonies? Can you imagine what was going through their minds and bodies, and how it broke the heart of God and angered Him?” Silence…silence from all four pastors/elders.
I actually had to have a blunt conversation with grown men about the difference between child porn (illegal and felonies) and adult porn (legal). They said it was “harmless”.
According to studies by the FBI, District Attorneys’ Association and The Mayo Clinic the majority of inmates in prison ‘just for child porn’ (my pastors/elders words) admitted to ‘on contact sexual abuse of children’ in which they had never been caught, arrested, and convicted. In short, where there’s ‘smoke’ (child porn) there’s usually ‘fire’ (pedophilia, child sexual abuse).
The senior pastor told me in the meeting that if a father at church permitted the sex offender to touch his children than his authority was ‘binding’ and that his wife was ‘to obey him’ and ‘to submit’ to his authority.
Uhhh, no. Wrong, pal. Fathers and Mothers are required by law to protect their children from danger and dangerous people. If a father doesn’t have the brains and the back bone to do it, that doesn’t absolve the mother from responsibility. Both parents can be arrested and prosecuted for misdemeanor or felony child abuse/endangerment/neglect. Parents face up to 1-year in jail or up to 6-years in state prison if found guilty. Child Protective Services can take away their children and put them in the foster care system.
The pastors/elders said that the sex offender “said that his attorney said he was coming off Megan’s List”. OK, that attorney (if he/she even exists) can be disciplined or disbarred by the State Bar of California (a division of the California Supreme Court) for saying that. Secondly it takes 30-days to get off Megan’s List (in the nearly impossible chance of getting off of it). Thirdly, since when do you take a convicted felon/sex offender/Megan’s List registrant ‘at his word’ instead of taking “the word” of his supervising law enforcement agency?
The chairman of the elder board called me and told me I was to never have contact with this sex offender’s supervising law enforcement agency again, The Sheriff’s sex offenders’ task force. The Sheriff had been so alarmed by the lies that my pastors/elders told me (that they had permitted him to become a member because he was coming off Megan’s List) that the Sheriff contact The California Attorney General’s Office, in charge of my state’s Megan’s List. The Attorney General confirmed the stories from my pastors/elders were “all lies”.
The elders demanded that I “obey” them and “submit” to their authority, a crime in California known as “obstruction of justice” that they can be arrested and prosecuted for.
The pastors/elders have quickly moved the sex offender in to positions of trust and authority (heading a team at church) and even invited him to volunteer at our children’s basketball camp for 1-week in the summer, unbeknownst to parents.
The sex offender and I were in the same Bible study. He whipped the entire room of people into a frenzy of negative emotions about ‘all of the bad people in prisons’ and the Bible study members agreed with him. He sat back and smiled in satisfaction. He had manipulated them and never revealed that he was a felon, had served prison time, and was on Megan’s List. He gave the impression that he was ‘one of the good guys’. No humility there or repentance. He didn’t know that I knew he was on Megan’s List. I went home from the Bible Study and sat down at my computer and under his picture on Megan’s List filed a confidential report with the Attorney General about this sex offender’s manipulations of the Bible Study. That then went to the Sheriff.
The pastors/elders were enraged with me.
Anyway they trumped up some charge against me and kicked me out for being a terrible person. (Previously, they did that to a doctor who has been married for 40+ years and confronted them about Biblical error.)
Thanks for your stand in doing the right thing.
Gram3 wrote:
The “paint bomb in the toilet” one is particularly funny.
@ Mandy:
Joking aside now, I’m really sorry to read about your situation, Mandy – as much for the long heartache of underemployment as for the emergency you’re facing this weekend. Praying that God will bridge the gap between pay cheques, and that he’ll send the right people alongside you with the right help.
Michaela wrote:
Thanks Michaela, and thanks for the stand you took, I do not understand why it is so hard for these church leaders to do the right thing. Consider yourself honored to be given the left foot of fellowship from this church. They do not sound like anyone I would want to be associated with. These days I want nothing to do with any church affiliated with 9Marks or the Gospel Corporation.
TW wrote:
Hi Todd,
Amen, brother! It was last weekend that the ever insightful Gram3 gave this spot on post about my former church and others like it:
Gram3 UNITED STATES on Fri Jan 02, 2015 at 03:27 PM said:
@ Michaela:
I think that these pastors have over-identified with their ideology, so any perceived threat of exposure of the weaknesses of the system becomes a personal threat to them. That is why you, the person Michaela, are perceived by them as a greater threat than a pedophile or child pornographer is. It is totally irrational when viewed from the perspective of the Kingdom.
If their identity were truly grounded in Christ rather than their system, then they would not hesitate to protect the children first, last, and always. But the proof of where their identity really lies is in what they value and what they work so hard to protect. They are into reputation management rather than sanctification.
Based on what you have written, we have much in common WRT the experiences with “leadership” in the church
Deb wrote:
I can’t address that question, but my response to Elizabeth Lee focused on her observation that long-term investments decreased from $2,455,106 as of 8/31/2011 to $446,332 as of 8/31/2014, which is a decrease of $2,008,774. For those three fiscal years, SGM had net sales, as follows
8/31/2011 to 8/31/2012
Purchase $ 255,882
Sold $1,340,493
Net(sold) $1,084,611
8/31/2012 to 8/31/2013
Purchase $ 836,168
Sold $1,076,180
Net(sold) $ 240,012
8/31/2013 to 8/31/2014
Purchase $ 394,000
Sold $1,171,396
Net(sold) $ 777,396
Total
Net(sold) $2,102,019
The Total Net(sold) amount of $2,102,019 is slightly greater than the decrease of $2,008,774 which suggests there was a slight profit. These Investments are defined in the annual report as investments in mutual funds, certificates of deposit, etc. and not real property.
@ Michaela:
It’s always good to give Todd an attaboy for doing what he did. It is never easy to do the right thing when the world is structured to encourage us to do the wrong thing. Thanks again to the Deebs who give us a means to support one another in such far-flung places.
Gram3 wrote:
Amen Gram3!
dee wrote:
Grant Layman is an interesting case. My opinion is that CJ knew ahead of time, yes. Absolutely. Whether that information was relayed directly or indirectly would be interesting to find out. If indirectly, it was probably transmitted through lawyers.
Lydia wrote:
Yeah, I’d agree, mainly because Kauflin wasn’t born & bred within the SGM system. But nowhere was it more telling for me about what Kaufman is constructed of behind what appears of him on stage is what he did on his 2013 SGM sponsored trip to the Philippines. Which, incidentally, he took the entire SBTS Worship Band “Norton Hall” with him.
What was the SBTS doing sending their student worship band on an SGM trip with SGM’s Music Director in charge, in order to accomplish SGM Ministry goals?
How cozy.
And what did representatives of both these Christian organizations do when a major earthquake happened under their feet where they were in Bohol on that October day in 2013, in which 3.2 million people were affected, 350,000 of whom were displaced?
They did what The Savior would do and left as quickly as possible, right?
Yup. Under Bob Kauflin’s leadership – leadership in which he had stated prior to the trip that they were going as missionaries to “share the gospel”, and as a full-time staff member of SGM (an organization which, at the time, supposedly had a large “Disaster Relief Fund” which SGM collected after the Haiti earthquake) – they left the scene of the disaster as fast as their feet could carry them back to the US.
Imagine finding yourself “boots on the ground” during a Christian Missions Trip, a disaster strikes, and people all around you are in desperate need? Wouldn’t that be the perfect opportunity to demonstrate your faith by taking action?
The action Bob Kauflin took was to leave as fast as he could.
Oh, and the theme of the conference he had just conducted? “Called To Be Faithful”
How ironic.
What’s that the Bible says about faith? That without ___?___ it’s dead?
Poor Bob. Guess he’s the good guy providing the hospice care for SGM. Such a Saint!
Oh, and Lydia…funnily enough I didn’t see CJ & Carolyn Mahaney’s name on the list of Community Group leaders. How utterly strange.
Because, I mean, we all remember, right, that the reason Mahaney moved to Louisville in the first place was to get back to fulfilling his true calling as a pastor, which he felt he had moved away from. He wanted to be more involved with the hands-on-job on pastoring people – aside, of course, from performing the absolutely most important task of being the featured speaker during the Golden Hour of of the week in which he preaches one of his recycled sermons – and then everyone is tasked to regurgitate within the Community Group discussion.
Why wouldn’t CJ & Carolyn want to be involved directly with their parishioners?
Hmm. I think I know. It’s most likely because the members are tasked with discussing The Sermon that CJ gave, that it would seem un-humble for him to be, once again, the center of attention.
Or, that he wouldn’t want to be a hindrance to people asking questions or having criticisms about the theological content of his sermon.
Because we all know how good at CJ is at helping to facilitate open, transparent & and honest discussions including questions he’s willing to answer.
What’s that thing he confessed to? “Unapproachability”?
Paula Rice wrote:
In fairness, we should say that this is not just a problem with C.J., though he and Driscoll are certainly the most prominent spokesmodels for authoritarianism in the church. The others in the Gospel Glitterati strike a more intellectual pose, but their product is the same.
I have never personally encountered anyone who thinks, whether he acknowledges or not, that a lack of authority and order is the primary problem in the church who is willing to submit to *any* questioning of their assertions or the details of their theology. They may try for a *season* to *pretend* that they are willing to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ and answer questions from the Bible, but ultimately the truth is exposed that they do not believe that they have to answer for their teaching. It is really quite remarkable.
The last pastor I had of a church who actually *did* meet with people and who actually answered their hard questions was back in the 1980’s before the whole shepherding/Founders/SGM/Gospel Glitterati resurged themselves upon the church. Not coincidentally, that was before “christian” publishing became such a huge business and before “pastors” became wealthy CEOs.
I want to give full credit to Nancy for the imagery of being “resurged upon” which she used in a comment and which has stuck in my mind. I think it is quite an accurate description of the way things have worked out in conservative evangelicalism since the late 1970’s and early 1980’s.
I also want to give full credit to the resurgers who so skillfully masked what they were really all about. Power. I did not believe that at the time, but I do now that I have seen the results of their movement, which is certainly *not* about the authority of the Bible or inerrancy or any of those things. It is interesting that they described themselves with a word that is about exerting or regaining power rather than one of revival or recovery of something lost.
TW wrote:
@Todd,
In honor of you I took my Mahaney books and tossed them in the paper recycling container today! (Thankfully, I never bought any Piper. I did have a Dever book on 9 Marks which I already tossed out a few weeks ago.)
Mandy wrote:
You have my prayers.
Bridget wrote:
This is true.
I am still attending CLC, so I have a slightly different perspective than some here. I believe there is hope for CLC, but NOT because of the pastors. I love the people of the church and do not want to abandon them because of a few bad pastors.
Many of us have lost trust in the pastors who hid the abuse for years, then apparently lied about it for years. I know people still at CLC who are not only withholding donations, but also refusing to participate in communion until more godly leaders are in place. I have actually seen a list of CLC pastors posted on a home prayer wall, where each name is crossed out when the pastor resigns or is fired. Around half the names are already crossed out, and the idea is to keep praying until God removes all who need to go, and replaces them with godly, unselfish leaders.
There is still hope because there really are a good number of godly members left at CLC, and we believe that God can bring down the bad leaders and raise up good ones in their place. Of course, much needs to change in the church culture and there is much work and spiritual battles ahead. Some of us are committed to keep praying and showing God’s love in reaching out to the others at CLC, bringing about lasting change.
I believe the people will follow the unselfish leaders who love us and stop following those who do not have our best interests at heart.
@ BoughtTheField:
I think you make some good points, and you should be commended for your dedication to your brothers and sisters at CLC. You demonstrate commitment by staying, and others have demonstrated commitment by leaving and speaking out. Others withdraw from leadership and gather together to pray and encourage one another. One thing we must never do is to condone or wink at spiritual abuse or other sin by leadership.
It takes all of those approaches, IMO. Thanks for your perspective which, as you said, we don’t often get here. I’ve stayed and tried to work from within, but other times I’ve left because it was evident that there was not going to be change and that the leaders had shown clearly that they were not concerned with being faithful to either the Lord or to his words. They showed by their actions or inactions that they were interested in their own self-interest.
I know that it is hard for those who don’t know what is going on behind the scenes to understand why people either leave or stay. No matter which decision you make, it seems that some will judge. I hope you will come back and let us know how the true body at CLC is doing and how the Lord is working there.
@ BoughtTheField:
Thanks for your comment and welcome to TWW. I also appreciate your perspective. It's good to know that there are some godly people still at CLC.
TW wrote:
@Todd,
I wrote a negative review about Mark Dever’s 9 Marks book today on amazon. I said that it sounded nice in theory but went on to describe its practice: spiritual abuse and inappropriate authoritarian control over the lives of members. I said that going to a church that practices the 9 Marks is like going through the Salem Witch Trials.
david L wrote:
david L wrote:
Dear (NOT) David,
The word is spelled “flag”. And you need to keep your hands to yourself when you’ve been playing with buttons again.
(In)sincerely,
Zooey
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
True, dat.
Paula Rice wrote:
That being said, Satan was quite strategic as well! Birds of a feather ..
__
Run !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hplpQt424Ls
🙁
—
BoughtTheField, I know how you feel, but do encourage you as a former SGM congregant, please keep your eyes on Jesus, not on your church, or its leadership. He is the head of the Church.