"Mars Hill Church will cease to exist on December 31st. A flagship Eastside congregation has renamed itself Bellevue Church and hired Tacoma “church planter” Jeff Vanderstelt as its Lead Teaching Pastor. Will Bellevue Church reap a windfall when its former parent church dissolves?"
Downtown Bellevue Panorama – Patrick Rodriguez
Who could have predicted it? Jeff Vanderstelt, a pastor whom Mark Driscoll considered to be a competitor, will soon lead the flagship campus for Mars Hill Church when it becomes independent on January 1. This news was shared in an announcement posted on 'The City' and re-published in a screen shot over at Patheos (see below).
Looks like Sunday will be a big day for Bellevue Church. Christian Today (not to be confused with Christianity Today), recently published an article – Ex Mars Hill church has called Mark Driscoll rival as pastor – which discusses the rivalry between Driscoll and Vanderstelt. Here is an excerpt:
Jeff Vanderstelt is a founding pastor of a Tacoma church which is part of the Soma network. When Mars Hill founded a church in Tacoma, Driscoll reportedly said "We'll hand Vanderstelt his ass once I'm there." The competitiveness and aggression which has come to be a hallmark of Driscoll's style – and is arguably more appropriate to a corporate than a ministry setting – has rebounded spectacularly, as Bellevue Church, a Mars Hill plant, has called Vanderstelt as its lead pastor.
Seattle Pi also featured an interesting article about this development entitled Mars Hill Bellevue gets new pastor, was once Driscoll target, which states:
That’s where Driscoll announced on Aug. 25 that he was taking a six-week leave, from which he never returned. It was also site of an August demonstration by former megachurch members disaffected by Driscoll’s domineering and authoritarian leadership.
The article goes on to say…
Bellevue Church is remaining in its downtown location at the former John Danz Theater. It is combining with the former Mars Hill Sammamish congregation.
What will the new (and improved?) Bellevue Church be like? Warren Throckmorton, who has done an excellent job covering the Driscoll debacle, has written a post about the Proposed Bellevue Church in which he provided a link to the proposed Constitution and By-Laws of Bellevue Church. Here are the parts that concern us.
6. Membership
d. If it appears to the Board of Elders that a member has requested removal to avoid church discipline, that request shall not be given until the disciplinary process has been properly concluded…
11. Church Records
b. A member shall be entitled to inspect and copy, at a reasonable time and location specified by the Board of Elders, any of the church records described above, provided the Board of Elders finds that the member has a proper purpose and is acting in good faith. The Board of Elders my limit access to any records that contain confidential information about a particular person or persons.
12. Church Discipline
Church discipline shall be carried out according to biblical guidelines as explained in the Guidelines for Church Discipline developed by the Board of Elders.
We are deeply troubled by part d. under Membership. Just the phrase "If it appears" sends chills down our spine. We have seen far too many abuses of power in this area, which have been thoroughly discussed here at TWW.
Furthermore, in part b. under Church Records, the Board of Elders reserves the right to determine whether a member 'has a proper purpose and is acting in good faith'. This is a definite RED FLAG!
Finally, it is the Board of Elders that gets to develop the Guidelines for Church Discipline. Will there be any input from members? Not a chance!
Last month an article appeared in the Seattle P-I that said Bellevue Church will be accountable. That pieced stated the following:
A promise of “accountability” has cropped into planning for the new Bellevue Church. The specifics are not worked out, but Skelton wrote to the faithful:
“The new church structure that we will establish will include controls for accountability. While we are still prayerfully considering how this will be written into our governance, we desire that the members of the church would have an active voice into the future by allowing them to affirm elements such as the slate of elders, and the implementation of new budgets.”
A Seattle News article emphasized Throckmorton's concerns about transparency (see excerpt below).
Warren Throckmorton, a Pennsylvanian professor who has chronicled Mars Hill travails on the Patheos website, wrote Monday:
“Barring any legal complications, Bellevue Church is in line to receive what could be a substantial amount of money from the dissolution of Mars Hill Church.
“Initially, there were high hopes that the involvement of Vanderstelt and Soma would bring in a new era of transparency. However, up to now, those representing Soma Church have ignored questions from the public and from Soma membership.”
It remains to be seen whether a new era has been ushered in at Bellevue Church with the passing of the torch to Jeff Vanderstelt. So far things seem very controlled from our vantage point. We'll just have to wait and see once the church gets rolling in 2015.
On a final note, it is truly ironic to witness the replanting of Mars Hill Bellevue. At least that's how Vanderstelt describes it in a December 2 post. (see screen shot below)
Time to replant a 'church planting church'…
Lydia's Corner: Genesis 42:18-43:34 Matthew 13:47-14:12 Psalm 18:16-36 Proverbs 4:7-10
And I reclaim my throne. As a man it is my duty to assert myself. All women heed John Piper’s teaching and submit. With that I pound my chest and proclaim. …FIRST!!
@ Eagle:
I keep trying and trying but somebody always beats me. I guess I don’t have the Wartburg tingle. đ
Could someone please explain to me how this large, existing congregation can legitimately be called a “new church plant”?
@ Corbin:
Never, never, never give up! đ
“Meet the new boss, same as the old boss”
Those who move from MH to Bellevue Church need to remember this piece of wisdom: Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me
Religious shell game??
@ ChrisCross:
Just name it and claim it. Never question God’s anointed.
All this discipline business….more and more people are going to stop going to church…why bother? I know my life is complicated and who really needs another level of complication?
So a member can’t just leave; the Board wants the pleasure? satisfaction? what? of kicking the member out.
@ Shannon H.:
We are corresponding with a former member of a famous Calvinista church who is being hounded by the leadership. I hope we can publish this story one day. These stories must be made public so they cannot continue this ridiculous bullying behavior without be called on it.
I think many of these well known pastors were bullied as kids and are now enjoying payback time.
dee wrote:
That’s just sick and pathetic. If that’s ‘Christian, then I’m a burn-him-at-the-stake heretic.
dee wrote:
They say it’s all ‘Biblical’ and that they run everything according to Paul’s commands.
I’ve been mulling over the “lessons” of Mars Hill Church for weeks now, and, for what it’s worth, here’s what just poured out.
From months of my own research into the Mars Hill Mess, the way I have come to understand church entities has changed.
Most American churches are three elements interwoven into one. First is what we get from the Scriptures themselves, a congregation as an organic, relational community. In other words, the parish is the people. Their individual gifts and abilities are more likely to be recognized and used in a meaningful and personal way.
Second is what we get from being an organization. The reality is, the larger the enterprise, the organizing and programming it requires. Also, if the church chooses to pursue tax-exempt non-profit status, there are far more rules and regulations that have to be followed so as not to put the entity at risk. And, at some point, the business of perpetuating the organization takes on its own momentum, and then the less personal it can be. People get slotted into roles that anyone could do, instead of being acknowledged and equipped for ministries that they uniquely are gifted to do.
Third is what we get when the âownershipâ of the entity shifts. Here, the organization becomes too pervasive (despite its size) and its authority figures become too intrusive in the lives of its members. It has shifted paradigms from an organic culture of participation to an organizational culture of consumption. Members are no longer individualized people, just objectified cogs to keep a perpetual motion machine going. They no longer belong to themselves, but are slaves to the organization.
At this level, personal discernment and responsibility have been removed, replaced by inserting a few people into kingly roles of vision-casting and rulership, supposed prophetic authority to speak for God, and supposed priestly responsibility to be accountable for everything done by those under their âprotection.â Actually, this is the essential heresy at the core of the Shepherding Movement; the leaders own the sheep and âleadingâ no longer has much to do with equipping and releasing disciples for personal ministry, but with building the organization for institutional maintenance. This is the same essence found in sociological cultsâsuch as Communist China during the Cultural Revolution and in Stalinist and post-Stalinest USSR. There, dictators and oligarchies subverted people for their personal purposes and inurement.
From all the evidence I have seen, Mars Hill Church had progressed to an âownershipâ entity where leaders acted as if entitled to the absolute and unquestioned obedience of their disciple-plebes. And all done in the name of Jesus, and supposedly for His glory. And now in the so-called âreplantsâ of 11 spin-off campuses, how much of that will change? The plans give strong evidence that the spiritual, organizational, and cultural DNA of the former Executive Elder trinity will be carried with them; nothing much that was dysfunctional and damaging will change, only be spread farther afield and perhaps hybridized with other systems that show similar indicators of the âownership model.â For example, by-laws and membership covenants with sketchy sections on over-strong authority and over-emphasis on church discipline conducted by over-lord âleaders.â
9Marks, Acts29, Soma, post-MarsHillettesâall of these networks that have been related to the soon-to-be-dissolved Mars Hill need to demonstrate that they have not succumbed to the heretical Shepherding Movement, if indeed they havenât. And that goes for their individual network members as well. Otherwise, perhaps they need to expect increasing push-back about these cultish ownership aspects.
âIt is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.â (Galatians 5:1, NIV)
Ugghh.
dee wrote:
I always figured that for Mark Driscoll and (especially) Kevin Swanson. Swanson looks and sounds like a High School Dork who’s found a place where he can be Alpha Male (by Divine Right, no less) and is throwing his weight around HARD. “NOW *I*M THE ONE WHO HOLDS THE WHIP!”
Muff Potter wrote:
I’d like to hear Paul’s comments on that one.
Shannon H. wrote:
They say Comrade Stalin especially enjoyed making an official being purged (who was normally in charge of purges) sign his own Death Warrant/Execution Order.
ChrisCross wrote:
Because WE SAY SO, of course?
“I REJECT YOUR REALITY AND SUBSTITUTE MY OWN!”
@ brad/futuristguy:
That is excellent. Thanks, Brad. Another aspect of the Calvinista/YRR/Gospel Glitterati is the desire to build a legacy. The older guys have done and are grooming their heirs who are taking over churches and remaking them in the images of the Older Mentor Gospel Guru. People *love* being in a church associated in some way with the Gospel Glitterati. The younger guys have positions of influence and income that they could never gain in the real world where the rest of us live. They are only too happy to follow the franchise agreement.
@ Gram3:
Thanks Gram3. And with what you said, it strikes me that people seem to assume that a “legacy” is positive. Or, if it happens to be negative, then it’s the result of an individual — but really, the system is still okay, right? The leaders who inherit “seed money” for their Mars Hill spin-offs may find out that “Mark’s Baby” turned out to be a tar baby, and they’ll be stuck second-hand with the negative legacy he and the other Executive Elders and Board of Advisors and Accountability have left.
New bondage = old bondage.
Nothing new under the Martian sun.
Shannon H. wrote:
Shannon, this is far more important and dangerous than it sounds. Other mega churches, including other Acts 29 churches will not allow you to become a member if you have not left your previous church “in good standing.” This is huge stick in mega church circles. If you dare to ask forbidden yet innocent questions about things like salaries, expenses or the biblical basis for NT tithing, you will be labeled as a dissenter. The church can now hold you hostage. Until you fully repent and/or fully participate in their restoration process you cannot leave the church in good standing. The very real fear is church homelessness. These churches use this stick to make you stay, shut up and behave. I have actually heard current members wistfully counsel new “would be” members at my former church/cult to not “officially” become a member so they would face no such hindrance in the future from joining another church. They prompted them to stay classified as guests or visitors. This might not be a big deal depending on your demographics, but in some cities, even big ones, if you have school age children, being banned from other churches is a very real fear. It’s also horrifically ungodly that they conspire to keep people out of churches for asking questions. The problem is you don’t find out about this during the love bombing stage – only in the questioning stage and by that time it’s too late.
TWW please continue sounding the siren on this one. That unilateral ability of MH Redux and other churches to unilaterally classify you as a dissenter to keep you from attending competing churches is flatly abusive and results in folks leaving the church for good. Please call this for what it is – blatantly evil.
Gram3 wrote:
“Legacy” or “Dynasty” like the Kims of North Korea?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Kevin Swanson reminds me of Dark Helmet.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
HUG, you are on fire tonight!
Brad wrote: “And, at some point, the business of perpetuating the organization takes on its own momentum, and then the less personal it can be. People get slotted into roles that anyone could do, instead of being acknowledged and equipped for ministries that they uniquely are gifted to do.”
This is exactly what happens. If it grew that big it must be of God, right? (wrong) So we must maintain it. But wait. That is harder to do than one thinks in a mega environment so all sorts of tactics, events, programs, brand management comes into play. Everything from marketing to control tactics come into play to maintain and grow this “God” machine. They start measuring their spirituality by bottoms in the pews and money flowing in week to week.
The pew sitters turn into what you called cogs in the wheel (a wheel they are not aware is part of the equation) but that you nailed: Consumers not participants.
Most of it would not work if the pew sitters demanded one simple thing: We must see detailed budgets and vote on them quarterly or no more money.
Brad, Sometimes you do my thinking for me. :o)
Gram3 wrote:
Oh my yes. Legacy is very much part of the equation for the celebrity on stage. This is a money machine that operates on cult of personality. It is the personality they are selling. Jesus Christ is the plastic fish they slap on for cover. That is why they are so protected, insulated and isolated from any real world stuff. That is why pew sitters dying of cancer are a nuisance. As Rick Warren used to say about growing churches, “Nothing succeeds like Success”. This is how they think. The biggest failing people make is to think the stage persona of most of these guys are who they really are. They have no idea who they really are. they follow a cult of personality.
Now. on the other hand, there are guys like Furtick, Noble, Driscoll and others of that stage genre who seem to possess some sort of serious personality disorder who turn their stage nastiness into what they have convinced their followers are kingdom truths. It is part of their shtick. It is what attracted certain types of
people to them in the first place. It might be their “boldness”, ignoring the warning signs of such a thing.
LT wrote:
We plan to do just that in 2015.
Lydia wrote:
đ
LT wrote:
LT, excellent post! Although, who would want to belong to a church system that participates in blacklisting other Christians who dissented/were shunned? Part of getting better is rejecting such a sick, oppressive, evil, closed system.
I was recently banned by my church’s pastors/elders from stepping foot on church property, attending church services, having contact with other church members, and ordered to “apologize” to my elders. My “crime”? I discovered, while doing a research project for a former prosecutor, that a newer church member was a convicted sex offender on Megan’s List. When I told the pastors/elders they screamed and yelled at me in a meeting, defended him (said he was a really good friend of theirs) and the senior pastor told me that the sex offender was coming off Megan’s List. The sex offender’s supervising law enforcement agency (the Sheriff’s sex offenders task force) called that “a total lie” and said this sex offender was NOT coming off Megan’s List (a lifetime registry). The Sheriff’s sex offenders task force was so concerned by the lies the four pastors/elders told me that the Sheriff contacted the California Attorney General’s Office, which maintains my state’s Megan’s List of sex offenders. The California Attorney General said that it “was a total lie” and that this sex offender is NOT coming off Megan’s List.
The sex offender also touches young children at church whose parents have no idea he’s on Megan’s List. The pastors/elders said they didn’t have a problem with that. I do…it’s called “grooming”. The senior pastor told me that if the father of a church member permits the sex offender to touch his children than the father’s word “is the final authority over his family” and that his wife is “to obey him” and “to submit to him”.
These pastors/elders are IDIOTS!! Under California criminal law, a mother is legally required to protect her children from danger. Her failure to do so is a criminal act, she can be arrested or prosecuted for misdemeanor or a felony child abuse/endangerment/neglect and get up to 1-year in the county jail or up to 6-years in state prison if found guilty and Child Protective Services will take away her children and put them in foster care.
Oh, at the end of my meeting with the four pastors/elders the chairman of the elder board read me a Scripture about being factious, an unbeliever, destined for hell and that I should be shunned…for addressing the issue of child safety and someone already amongst us who is a felon and served time in prison!
For telling my pastors/elders what the California Attorney General said about this sex offender…I was banished from church property, excommunicated and ordered to be shunned by some 150+ people. According to my pastors/elders, I owed them an apology because the Attorney General said it was “a total lie”.
Same ol’ same ol’. Nothing new under the sun. I’d stay far, far away until and unless the governance structure and rules change dramatically (which seems unlikely). The real question for me remains: why do people willingly join and/or stay in churches like this? Unless they’ve been duped into it, it just seems crazy. Are they that needy for “strong” leadership? Co-dependent? I don’t get it?
@ Michaela:
Wow! I hail from California this would make a fantastic post. Are you willing to state the city this is occurring in, or church name?
@ Michaela:
One more thought. Hats off to you, you are a courageous and brave person. I deeply respect what you did, and tried to do. I would love to have you in my congregation. I think your story could be an amazing post.
@ Michaela:
What has happened to you at your church is absolutely horrendous! I agree with Eagle – we really need to get this information out there in a post. Thanks for having the courage to share it in a comment.
This is a bit off topic (but just a bit). Last night I saw a post on a friend’s page on facebook, and I followed the link to a friend of a friend who attends Covenant Life, just to see what he’s up to these days. Imagine my surprise when I saw posts from the Flower Hill string band – the band run by D.A. who is a convicted sex offender. I proceeded to see several pictures of the band, with both young men and women in it, as well as people who liked the posts who had young children, some of them in the band. It just made me want to go up on the stage at CLC and yell, “NOOOOO!!!!” Seriously, what are people thinking?!!!
John wrote:
John, in my case I attended a local Presbyterian Church but was totally unaware of what the Presbyterian Church of Australia was like until I made a complaint against the leadership of the local church. I have written a book about my experience because I believe I was called to that church so I could make people aware of what goes on ‘behind closed doors’. Before my journey of 4 years started I was given the Bible verse Hebrews 4:13 ‘Nothing in all creation is hidden from Godâs sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account’. With what has been going on in the news etc. I believe the time has come (or is coming), that ‘everything is being uncovered and laid bare’. The one thing that shocked me was how many people said ‘will it hurt the church if you write this book’. In my opinion, if telling the truth hurts the church wouldn’t that mean that there is something very wrong with the church.
Rhonda
Would you like to write a post for our blog about this topic? Please contact us.
Michaela wrote:
Well done you for getting this out there & refusing to be shut up. Those poor kids, their parents are playing with fire. The Bible says the State holds the sword to punish evil – Megan’s Law is part of this & those Pastors are ridiculous fools for their dangerous stance on this. I despair.
I want to see Michael’s story fleshed out, because it’s becoming all too common. “Church Discipline” becomes, “How we shut people up who make us look bad.” We need to shout this one from the rooftops.
@ dee:I have never done anything like that before but if you can assist me I would like to try.
@ Rhonda Aubert:
I admire your courage and your persistence in pursuing the truth. Would love to hear more of your story. Sadly, though, you are probably the exception rather than the rule. I remain concerned that so many average churchgoers just seem to unquestioningly go along with whatever the leaders say, regardless of its validity.
@ Michaela:
Those pastors are foolish beyond belief. I used to work for a youth-serving nonprofit here in California and I can tell you they are playing with fire and worse. They are knowingly putting minors in danger. The organization I worked for (a secular nonprofit) would NEVER have allowed a registered sex offender the possibility of access to kids, much less the chance of unsupervised access. I hope someone picks up on this and posts it, with verification, names and locations. People need to be warned.
AAAh, “Michaela’s story.” Stupid autocorrect! Sorry.
@ Gram3:
The pastor of the PCA church I attended for a while once fretted about this out loud, from the pulpit – how he wanted to make sure he left a legacy as a pastor, etc. He absolutely adored Piper’s Don’t Waste Your Life. Looking back on it, it seems to have influenced his thinking to the point where he developed a bit of a mini-phobia that he would waste his life, which ties right into the legacy-building. My whole family thought it was weird. Even my dad, who almost never comments on church stuff, basically reacted with “Self-absorbed much?”
I suspect that the people who leave real meaningful legacies, are NOT the people who consciously worry and talk about leaving one.
Addendum @ Gram3:
Kind of like this:
http://www.quora.com/Namit-Katariya/Calvin-and-Hobbes/Boy-of-Destiny
đ
(Though to be fair, this mindset is hardly limited to Neo-Calvinist mega-pastors.)
I’m working on a different project, and found myself reading Matthew 18, thanks to a keyword search.
After all of the harping and hyping of Matthew 18 as “the BIBLICAL(TM) way to solve conflict,” even if it’s something like child sexual abuse, I realized that they’ve been selectively reading their scriptures!! Behold the **rest of the story**….
18 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, âWho, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?â
2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: âTruly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.
Causing to Stumble
6 âIf anyone causes one of these little onesâthose who believe in meâto stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
The Parable of the Wandering Sheep
10 âSee that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. [11] [a]
12 âWhat do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.
Then, and only then, do the fateful words about what to do “if your brother sins against you” come up.
Replicator rations for thought.
XianJaneway wrote:
It’s also possibly another indication of how churches have become more like corporations instead of a gathering of believers.
After I was harassed by a boss on one position I had, I read many books on the topic of workplace bullying and how businesses usually handle harassment and bullying complaints by workers.
How some churches are dealing with whistle-blowers is very similar how bullied workers get treated in secular places of employment when they finally speak up to human resources (or whomever) about the abuse, when they seek redress.
As in my experience, and from what I’ve read in numerous books on the subject, the victims in workplace abuse usually get punished or pressured into quitting, and the bully is defended until the cows come home. It sounds the same in authority-obsessed churches.
@ Hester:
At one point, Mark Driscoll did an entire sermon series on how to leave a legacy for your children. I forget where I read this. I read it somewhere that had a link to a Driscoll page where Driscoll talked about it more. Out of curiousity, I clicked the link to read more.
As a never married, childless adult, I was curious to see how or if Driscoll addressed childless people at all. Which he did. He made the standard preacher commentary about “if you’re single or childless, you can still benefit from this sermon” line.
I listened a bit more to see how he was going to make his legacy sermon series applicable to singles and the childless, but no, nothing he was yakking about really fit me or my situation. I don’t remember now what it was he said exactly, but it seemed to me it held little interest for anyone, unless they were married with kid(s).
Rhonda Aubert wrote:
Really interesting comment, Rhonda. I think many of us would be ready to hear your story.
To cut a long story short, Lesley and I have a similar tale to tell. And many others, too – in fact, I think it’s easy to overlook the hand of God in all of the emerging stories of systemic wrongdoing within church organisations, global or local. I’ve no doubt that he wants these stories told.
Thanks to the global set of time-zones spanned by TWW, it’ll be well into the evening where you are, whereas our transatlantic colleagues will be having breakfast – the sun never sets on the Deebs’ empire!
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Best laugh of the last two weeks. Thank you for that!!!
If you ever want to talk about your story in a post, let us know!
@ Daisy:
I wonder sometimes if a lot of church leaders see we who are single as mere sources of extra time to volunteer and disposable income.
With emphasis, sadly, on the … extra … disposable.
Meanwhile, I am as concerned as any disciple should be with stewarding life and instilling a legacy. When the time comes, I believe I will be missed as a person for my character and kindness as a person, and, from my spiritual giftings, I will leave behind volumes of research work and practical materials to help others find themselves in Christ and pursue wholeness in Him. And whether there are many dollars or mere dimes left, I still will be glad of how I invested my self in the Kingdom.
Michaela wrote:
I don’t know what the laws are in your state, but if he is a registered offender, is he even supposed to be around children? Where I live you can get a one way trip right back to jail if you are caught around kids. I would find it very hard to not call the local authorities and let them know this church is doing this.
Daisy wrote:
Daisy, it sounds like Driscoll will fit right in with his new mentor, Robert Morris’ Gateway Church. Morris preaches on “Legacy ” regularly. He’s not as subtle as Driscoll. He encourages very young adults to get married right away like he and Debbie did when he was 18 and she was 19, to avoid fornication – which didn’t work for him anyway. All his kids also married young but they are all over-employed by GW so they didn’t need to go to college, learn a trade, or save up for marriage. Not all parents are thrilled with this message.
To be clear, in Gateway-ese, legacy means two things: all the top pastors’ children (and grandchildren later) get 6 figure jobs for life regardless of qualifications, talents or effort. This was highlighted as his Accounting major son-in-law, Ethan Fisher, was twice promoted in 3 weeks this fall, to lead pastor of GW Young Adults, where “he” just finished a multi-week series called Legacy: Time Will Tell. How ironic is that? If you go to the wearevii.com sermon page you’ll quickly see out of the 15 weeks of sermons per page, Ethan only preached FOUR – thus requiring 11 guest speakers. The pastor they dumped to promote Ethan preached every week. Great stewardship Robert! There’s NO further services until mid-January so Ethan and his “ministry coordinator” wife Elaine, get an extra 4 week holiday vacay. Nice “Legacy” if you’re to the manor born.
The other use of Legacy refers to their stewardship program where they pressure the elderly to give their estate to GW church, so you could still end up as a legacy target, Daisy. Legacy is not a good thing in mega-church land.
@ LT:
“Ethan” or “Joffrey”?
Daisy wrote:
Does that include a 200-year plan of dynastic-alliance marriages, estates, and lowborn “houseservants”?
“William Wallace II” or “Tywin Lannister II”?
Daisy wrote:
At which point, the lesson learned is obvious:
BE A BULLY!
BE AN ABUSER!
BE A WINNER!
NOT A LOSER!
Hester wrote:
Wasn’t SGM’s original official “ministry” name “People of Destiny”?
Hester wrote:
Like Happiness and Self-Esteem, it’s one of those things which ONLY comes as a side effect/byproduct of something else, NOT by aiming directly for it.
Michaela wrote:
I’d leave them a little “legacy” on any Megan’s Law tip line.
Brad, Daisy, in our area singles are considered pure gold in the churches. Each income is a “tithing unit.” So singles have one person’s resource drain and one tithing unit. Double income no kids are gold also–two tithing units for two drains. What gets ignored are the single income folks with kids–be it single moms, married couples with a stay at home parent and children, or seniors on one retirement income. We are seen as multiple resource drains per tithing unit.
Shannon H. wrote:
What is not clear to me is whether the current membership roster gets transferred over to the new Bellevue Church or whether the current membership roster becomes void effective January 1, 2015, which signifies the beginning of planting a NEW (emphasis added) church. I think it would be a stretch for the new Bellevue Church to claim the current membership is subject to the proposed Constitution and By-Laws of Bellevue Church without having new membership cards.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Nope – that came along after several other iterations.
@ Gracie71:
In Australia, to work with children, you need a ‘working with children check’. It is an Act of Parliament so you cannot do any child related work unless you pass. They check you for prior criminal records etc.
The church called a “rival” as pastor? I can’t imagine anyone in our church describing another minister as a “rival” of our current pastor.
I do not agree that a church should refuse to allow someone to leave if that person is engaged in a discipline matter. Just allow the person to leave. If another church calls wanting that person’s “letter”, explain that the person who left was not in good standing as there was a discipline procedure going on. There is no need to go into any facts. If the new church cares, they can ask the person seeking to become a member for the details and for permission to allow the old church to share details with the new church. Most churches today, however, do not care. The power point type churches don’t care. And lots of mainlines don’t care either.
I do believe that the elders should govern the discipline process for the health and tranquility of the church and for the people involved. For example, if there is a marriage involved and accusations of spousal wrongdoing or abuse, I can’t ever imagine sharing that in public. Elders can abuse the process. But so can congregations. It preserves the peace and stability of a congregation to handle things privately, and that does not create an incentive for persons to lobby politically to the congregation at large.
I do not believe that a church should have a discipline code or a book of statutory law. Even those churches that do, and have ecclesiastical courts, end up with a lot of judgment in their rulings etc.
Hope things work out for the new church.
Any member of the church should be able to see where every penny is spent and every document relating to the church (certain privacy matters excepted – e.g. staff social security information etc.)
If the member is suspected of wrongdoing, then deal with that. And the church could decide not to make copies of documents.
@ Anonymous:
As long as people put up with this bullsh… I mean nonsense, it will continue to occur. For a long time I have been saying, and others are agreeing more and more lately, that the tithing units, I mean pewpeons, I mean ‘members’ have some culpability in these ridiculous power games and legalistic nonsense. Just walk away.
Yes, I have heard all the excuses why that’s impossible, or very very difficult, but they don’t add up to me. At some point, people need to just grow up and laugh at these hand-flapping idiots. They have NO power but what their congregation gives them. None, zero, zilch.
I am very serious. As much as I abhor these clowns, I still maintain that they are enabled by their congregations, and those congregations bear some responsibility.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
NO NO NO Since Daisy’s a girl, if she does this, she’s just a b___ch. (snark off)
Anonymous wrote:
In which case, may the Lord bless your church and keep you all; may his face shine on you and bless you; may he lift his countenance over you and give you peace!
Rhonda Aubert wrote:
THis is so true of ANY church. The truth does not, cannot, harm a healthy church. And, IMNSHO, if a church is unhealthy, it needs to be hurt, so that people are not hurt by it.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
An excellent idea, there, HUG.
roebuck wrote:
It’s difficult to just walk away because the pewpeons are suffering from some kind of co-dependency. I understand that it is a learned behavior (from my internet research) which gets passed down from generation to generation through observation. I believe children are groomed into a co-dependency behavior when they go to church and see how their parents react to the pastor, elder and those who claim to be in authority.
zooey111 wrote:
Zooey111 I couldn’t agree more, however I am the one who has come away from all that I went through suffering from PTSD and yet from information I received from the church, I believe the minister benefited greatly from me making a complaint against him. Would I take the same action again? Yes because I did it for my Saviour and He is a righteous God. If what they are doing is not ‘right’ than it cannot be of God.
If a convicted child sex offender is regularly or consistently around children and is placed there or formally allowed to be there by the leadership of the organization, then in many states that leadership, as individuals, are guilty of child endangerment. A complaint should be made to the local sheriff or police department, as well as the state child protective services unit. REPORT, REPORT, REPORT, dand again I say, report. Those pastors belong in prison and should have the financial resources stripped in a civil suit by the parents of the children.
Gracie71 wrote:
I am diligently reporting the entire situation to law enforcement, the Attorney General, and other agencies. The pastors/elders are long-time friends of this sex offender (read: enablers) and they see nothing wrong with him and say he’s harmless. It has been despicable of them to hide it from all of the adults, and parents of children. Those parents had a right to know and make decisions for their family.
The denomination that rents to my (former) church heard about it and contacted me. They were concerned about several things: 1) they own the property and be sued for my pastors/elders acts of negligence; 2) they have a world-wide denomination and deeper pockets than my church; 3) they are self-insured (and don’t use a major insurance company like Church Mutual); 4) they have child safety/abuse prevention plans/training in place that they methodically follow; and 5) their reputation can be harmed by the bad acts of my former church. (So they are discussing banning my former church from all of their properties and schools and never renting to them again because of this. That would be terrific!)
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yes, I’ve already done that.
But I am going to go in to the local police department and write up police reports against all four pastors/elders since they threatened me together (told me never to contact the sex offender’s supervising law enforcement agencies again) and the pastors/elders are legally mandated child abuse reporters under the California Penal Code. Their not reporting is a continuing crime in California that they can be arrested and prosecuted for, since I told them that I had watched the sex offender run his hands through the hair of young children at our church whose parents have no clue the guy is on Megan’s List!
An Attorney wrote:
Will do. I will report, report, report. And I am going to make a paper trail a mile wide since the church can be sued for negligence as can the pastors/elders, as individuals, and a jury can award punitive damages against them if a child is ever harmed.
Rhonda Aubert wrote:
Rhonda Aubert wrote:
I wish it were the same here. In schools, medicine, etc. it is the law that you have to have a background check. (That doesn’t prevent all child abusers, since the vast majority of them have never been caught, arrested, and prosecuted. But it should certainly screen out the known ones.) At churches, it’s up to the discretion of the church. (I thought I was going to a solid Bible-believing church, but I didn’t know they believed in all of this patriarchy non-sense and that women are to ‘obey’ and ‘submit’ like children, or dogs…or something.)
John wrote:
Agreed, John. But there is something terribly wrong about my former church as the senior pastor and associate pastor (a hired “yes man” to the senior pastor) say they’ve known the sex offender for decades, even visited him in prison, and he’s harmless. I’m not comforted. They obviously knew nothing about him in the first place and what he was doing that got him arrested, prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced to prison. There is an epidemic of child sexual abuse in evangelical churches (and this comes from information from the insurance companies like Church Mutual) and we do have to be careful. But the pastors/elders aren’t careful.
The sex offender and I were in the same Bible study at another man’s home. The sex offender whipped the entire room into a frenzy of emotion about all of the ‘bad people in prisons’ (I was the only one there who knew he was on Megan’s List of sex offenders and had served prison time). Everybody was agreeing with him. He smiled in satisfaction that he successfully manipulated the entire room, all but me. I went home, turned on my computer to Megan’s List, and documented his entire manipulation for the California Attorney General (under his picture/name), which in turn they send to his supervising law enforcement agency. My senior pastor was livid and said I had “failed to use Matthew 18” on him.
My response: “The failure is yours for not protecting all of us from him. That was your job, not mine. I’m not going up against a man who is a convicted felon, registered sex offender, on Megan’s List, and is bigger than I am.” He’s highly manipulative and a liar, and they defend him. There is something wrong with them (and others have asked are they abusing kids or something…what’s the deal with them?).
roebuck wrote:
So true!!!
Gracie71 wrote:
The convicted sex offender at my former church was convicted for having child porn. He is not legally forbidden from being near children. But my concern is that the research (FBI, District Attorneys’ Association, The Mayo Clinic) shows that the majority of those inmates also confessed to having on-contact sexual abuse of a child and are in fact pedophiles.
Beakerj wrote:
Thanks for your support. My former pastors/elders are skilled liars/manipulators and did a masterful job of defaming me so that all of these people would shun me. So now women I’ve been friends with for years…said that I’m a terrible person and they will no longer speak to me. Everyone has been ordered to shun me. People I’ve been close to for 8+ years, whom I’ve served, ministered to in so many ways. It’s very strange. I feel like I’m in Hitler’s Germany.
XianJaneway wrote:
So true. And before my excommunication/shunning, a Godly doctor (married to his wife for 40+ years) was also kicked and out and shunned on some trumped up charge. I was so angry at what was done to him. He too had asked the pastors/elders solid questions, and that’s what they did to him. (The doctor even invited and paid for our senior pastor to join the doctor, his friend Pastor John MacArthur, and another man who were invited to the Rev. Billy Graham’s log cabin home in North Carolina. The doctor did so many wonderful things for our church and our senior pastor. And that was the thanks he got.)
Eagle wrote:
Thanks, Eagle. I am in Northern California. In Santa Clara County.
Eagle wrote:
Hi Eagle,
Yes, they’ve asked me to put together a post for the WW. It’s taking me a bit of time to get my composure as I just feel like I’ve been in a very bad car crash with the whole being banned from church property, excommunicated, and shunned. It’s a very strange thing to be excommunicated and ordered to be shunned by everyone you know and have known for years (8 years), fellowshipped with, etc. Do you know that I didn’t get a single Christmas card? (Well somebody in Europe sent me a card but then they aren’t members of my church.) But…it’s just weird.
@ Michaela:
Michaela, I am sorry to hear your story, but glad that you have the courage to share. I have said it before and will say it again: Christianity without love is an exercise in futility.
Hester wrote:
Amen!!!
I know I’m commenting on a super-old post here, but I’ve never seen the name of the paper as “Seattle Pi”.
Their website uses “pi” because it’s hip and trendy. The correct abbreviation is “P-I”, as seen on the footer on their website (“About the P-I”).
It’s short for Post-Intelligencer, the name of the newspaper before they moved to web-only five years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Post-Intelligencer
@ Clayton:
Thank you for your comment. I have corrected it in the post.