Oh my word.

In #4 you quoted “This is a very critical reason to pray Holy Spirit assisted prayer.” Do they not understand that Romans 8:26 tells us the Holy Spirit prays for us when – and precisely because – we have no clue what we’re supposed to do prayer-wise? They seem to think that we can figure out how to “pray Holy Spirit assisted prayer, but nowhere does the Bible teach any such prayer formula.

And in #6, the quote is “God is a Spirit; He’s not a theology teacher, and He wants to connect with us in spirit. He wants us to worship Him in spirit and in truth.” What do they think the word “truth” means if not a right understanding of who God is. which is another way of saying right theology? In fact, their own statement of God being spirit (which I agree with, of course) is a theological statement.

There’s more, as you point out, but those two really jumped out at me for their goofy misunderstanding and misstatements of what the Bible actually says.

Tim

P.S. By the way, Every Statement is a Theological Statement.

Nothing new here, just the usual truly Pentecostal church doings. Which is why I don’t attend one.

This sounds like an inverse of Tatted Todd and the Lakeland Revival:
“DEMONS! DEMONS! DEMONS! SHEEKA-BOOM-BAH! BAM!”

1. Keep *demon* inspired music and movies out of your house.

Allowing things in our homes that are demon inspired. This would include movies and music created by people who are immoral and serve the devil. (P.20)

In the words of Simple J Malarkey:
“AAAAAA!!! WITCHCRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!”

linda wrote:

Nothing new here, just the usual truly Pentecostal church doings. Which is why I don’t attend one.

Yep, denim skirts and selling peanut brittle will be someplace in the mix…..:)

This has to be the oddest one, no?

16. Wherever the devil reigns, there is *consistently* unattractive architecture and no flowers!!!

“You will notice something consistent about the devil – everywhere that he has free reign and his activity is rampant, you will see massive numbers of lost people, and you will see misery. Right now the center of satan’s influence is in an area of the world called the 10/40 Window, which is essentially the Middle East and the areas to the east and west of that region. In those nations there is poverty, mistreatment of women, unattractive architecture, no flowers, and misery. ( P.100)”

Um, why pick on the middle east without looking in your own backyard? The irony of Al Jazeera highlighting poverty in the US of A: http://projects.aljazeera.com/2014/poverty-50years/

@ Haitch:
“unattractive architecture and no flowers” – and don’t get me started on the voyeuristic ‘ruin porn’, possibly founded in Detroit.

Ohh and fun – the list of approved curriculum for small groups

https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/files/groups/2013/approved-curriculum-2013.pdf

And look who’s topping the list.

Nancy said: The whole thing sounds like they think they can control God. Do this. Say that. Require the other. Demand something, honestly? demand? That really sounds like the thinking behind witchcraft spun in the blender with some christian buzz words.

Having been closely involved with “strategic level intercession” and “spiritual mapping” and the like in the 1990s, I have to agree, Nancy. My understanding of the essence of certain aspects or types of *magick* is conducting rituals that in essence get cosmic forces to align the way you want. Part of what got me out of these doctrines and practices was seeing this formulaic/ritualistic thinking at work in spiritual warfare. “Strategic level prayer” and “confronting the principalities and powers” was the only way to “unbind” God from working so the Spirit could be released in a certain people group, city, or geographical location.

So much of the extended system here is based on thin to no biblical evidences (a few passages about the “Prince of Persia” and “Prince of Israel” as demonic or angelic forces), and building a superstructure on a weak, abiblical infrastracture. Add a lot of C. Peter Wagner and New Apostolic Reformation theology, plus a dollop of *This Present Darkness* storying, and you’ve got people locked into a counterfeit system that sounds all biblical, but has slipped to the level of anti-biblical.

It is no wonder that this system has received serious critique for at least two decades and even been termed, “Christian animism.” For instance, see the book *Spiritual Power and Missions: Raising the Issues* from Evangelical Missiological Society (1995).

http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Power-Missions-Evangelical-Missiological/dp/0878083774/

I am not or one who thinks references to demons in Scripture were their (primitive) understanding of mental illness and medical diseases; I believe in the biblical truths of the existence of angels and demons, the realities of being in a spiritual battle, and principalities and powers having been triumphed over by Jesus Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection. But these fantastical dogmas about spiritual warfare have syncretized with animism’s overfocus on occult forces that seek to overpower us. And, as with all such power-based cultures, the inherent result is fear. We can never, ever be sure that we have said enough prayers to release the Spirit’s work in a place. We can never, ever be sure that the supposed results are sustainable. So, in place of confidence in the Most High God, we are left with frailty, doubts, and fear. Of course, ritualized formulas for “spiritual success in warfare” is appealing. But whenever we seek to put ourselves in a position of control, it all goes amiss.

I have listened to pagans/wiccans describe some of their ritualistic practices to bring “redemption” (their word), restoration, and healing to the world. The theories of practitioners of strategic-level warfare do not sound all that much different. Odd to realize that Christians can succumb to “doctrines of demons” that are themselves doctrines ABOUT demons … but there it is.

reading that was exhausting. this is a whole new world to me. Sheesh!!!

EV wrote:

Ohh and fun – the list of approved curriculum for small groups
https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/files/groups/2013/approved-curriculum-2013.pdf
And look who’s topping the list.

Yep, and look who is number one under spiritual growth. I can hear it now, my pastor makes his money from book sales.

@ brad/futuristguy:
this is an excellent summary – the term xtian animism sums up most of it quite nicely.

been there, done that, have the scars to prove it. SO glad i’m out!!!

@ brad/futuristguy:
both Wagner and George Otis Jr (of Sentinel Ministries) “pioneered” the whole strategic level spiritual warfare mess – and both took on animist beliefs in order to battle animism. Both have written about that quite extensively. Imagine my surprise at finding people I knew at That Church referenced in one of Otis’ books (though not by name; he kept that quiet).

This is Super Crazy Train stuff, believe me!

Jan wrote:

It’s the Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Name it and Claim it, Word/Faith theology wrapped up in a different package but it’s the same old thing. I think COTH is an Assembly of God church. But it’s a little fancier, a little more slicker than your average “world changing outreach” center or Assembly of God.

Exactly. And with an authoritarian spirit that seems worse than the Pentecostal pastor adoration that happens in some circles.

brad/futuristguy wrote:

But these fantastical dogmas about spiritual warfare have syncretized with animism’s overfocus on occult forces that seek to overpower us. And, as with all such power-based cultures, the inherent result is fear. We can never, ever be sure that we have said enough prayers to release the Spirit’s work in a place. We can never, ever be sure that the supposed results are sustainable

And, of course, that is the marketing strategy of choice. They have to keep coming back to buy the magic product that will relieve the anxiety that the marketer created or amplified in the first place. It a sense it is like the drug dealer who creates or facilitates the addiction that requires ever-greater amounts of the drug for the addict to feel some relief from withdrawal.

The flip side of this, in a way, is people who live by the precautionary principle. They are the ones who are so afraid of every conceivable danger, no matter how unmeasurable or trivial it might be. You can never be too safe. And that, my friends, is why Whole Foods is so successful. It’s why both the opposite approaches of the EzzoPearls and Dr. Sears can both be regarded as Parenting Guarantees. They are actually the same product tailored for different market segments.

@ Corbin Martinez:
the stereotypes are right up their alley, as with most of the rest of the charismatic and/or Pentecostal churches in the US.

@ Gram3:
the “marketing strategy” is fear fear FEAR in this case; also making people feel big, because they can help defeat what fans of Buffy the Vampire Slayer refer to as The Big Bad (a new Big Bad every season!).

I cannot tell you how many otherwise well-educated, intelligent people have fallen for this. I used to be in their ranks, though the crazier things got, the more doubts I had, and I deliberately avoided the prayer walks and anointing of boundary stones and the supposed exorcism of entire neighborhoods and the like.

The sad thing about it is that once you’re invested in believing in it, it begins to make sense. And that’s how/where/why so many get caught.

Personally, I think this is not xtianity at all, but a different religion that uses some of the same names and words and book. Eventually, I think a lot of these “churches” will end up splitting off, or at least kind of dead-ending, like “oneness” Pentecostals.

wow, these terrible teachings sound an awful lot like those I heard at a certain well-known “Christian” residential program for “troubled” women. Eerily similar. Equally terrible. Yikes.

@ Corbin Martinez:
A lot of complementarians LOVE the Eldredges. He and his wife, Stasi (not a typo) co-authored a book about women that drives.me.up.the.wall. it’s INCREDIBLY stereotyped. The title is Captivating and no, lady, i do NOT want some knight on a white horse to chase after me, nor have i ever wanted to be *your* kinds of helpless pricess waiting to be rescued. I can see the appeal to girls in their mid-teens, but adult women??!! To quote Amy Winehouse “No no no no no no no!”

Bridget wrote:

EV wrote:
Ohh and fun – the list of approved curriculum for small groups
https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/files/groups/2013/approved-curriculum-2013.pdf
And look who’s topping the list.
Over 400 churches being encouraged to use Ezzo’s material is frightening

Good grief. As far as I’m concerned the Ezzo’s are babykillers.

@ Corbin Martinez:

Corbin, did you say some while ago that you were 17? Did I read that right? Because actually I think you are 42. If you are 17 (and I think that I must be mistaken about that) how did you get so savvy so soon?

@ numo:

My goodness yes. Eldridge was a big hit in comp circles. He got his start with Dobson/FoF.

I always think of women in flowy dresses waiting for the knight to come and fulfill their dreams. Like Stasi and the saga of her dream home in one of his books. It is mind numbing. Like they are perpetual 18 year olds.

Gram3 wrote:

The admonition to avoid “super-spiritual” Christians and not to engage theology is interesting. It boils down to don’t think. Obey.

I am hearing variations of that more and more. I think some pastors are finding the internet, with all its free resources for study, competition for hearts and minds.

numo said: both Wagner and George Otis Jr (of Sentinel Ministries) “pioneered” the whole strategic level spiritual warfare mess – and both took on animist beliefs in order to battle animism. Both have written about that quite extensively. Imagine my surprise at finding people I knew at That Church referenced in one of Otis’ books (though not by name; he kept that quiet).

Actually, I participated in the second-ever “spiritual mapping” conference put on by Sentinel Ministries. That was in 1994. In the mid- to late-1990s, I also was a consultant of sorts to people in the local strategic-level prayer network, doing some research, helping interpret symbols we saw locally that represented world religions, occult systems, etc. (We were considered at the very least a “New Age” hotspot, if not a “spiritual vortex.”)

As a life-long learner about cultural analysis and interpretation, and a long-time student of cross-cultural missions, there’s no denying that spiritual mapping has a certain appeal for figuring out mission contextualization. But one of the Scriptural problems that comes up is that the New Testament declares we are influenced by the world [including culture], the flesh [personal pathology and “besetting sins”], and the devil [Satan and personal spiritual forces that seek to do us harm]. All three, not just one. And as far as I’ve been able to see in Scripture, no one of those three is the one-and-only key undoing the destructive influences of the other. Yet that is the effectual claim of this movement.

So, FWIW, at best I find it abiblical to suggest that spiritual warfare is THE key to dominion over culture, exorcism of fleshly strongholds and demon possession, and principalities and powers that rule over geographic areas. At worst, the practices turn out to be anti-biblical because they ignore other principles in Scriptures. Paul tells Timothy to “flee youthful lusts” in dealing with the flesh, but elsewhere to “stand against” the wiles of Satan, and again that Christ has overcome the world and we are “in Christ Jesus.” The practices also don’t look all that different from some of the esoteric-hidden-secret practices of certain occult systems (for instance, geomancy and wicca). And it’s really weak to suggest that “those guys are the counterfeits of what we’re doing, which is the real deal” when the underlying theology is … as others have said … “a mess.”

As to Sentinel Group and George Otis, Jr.’s, book *Twilight Labyrinth* and *Transformations* video series that were making the rounds back then … as far as I know (and I check on this periodically), Mr. Otis has not provided evidence to counter people have followed up with research and critiques on his supposed examples where strategic level prayer/warfare worked and miraculous unleashings of the Spirit’s power occurred. For instance, check out this archived research piece on the claims, realities, and references about four examples of so-called successful strategic level intervention touted in the *Transformations* video:

https://web.archive.org/web/20061101041421/http://www.cephas-library.com/joels_army_transformation.html

EV wrote:

Ohh and fun – the list of approved curriculum for small groups

https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/files/groups/2013/approved-curriculum-2013.pdf

And look who’s topping the list.

The tight connection between Seacoast Church (ARC) and the Ezzos is really puzzling. They must have had a major shift in their personal theology because they spent many decades in cessationist churches. Maybe all those old bridges were burned and this was the only direction they could take business wise.

Corbin Martinez wrote:

@ Lydia:
I guess they just found something that they and their friends identified with strongly and assumed that everyone else was the same.

It is called a marketing niche. :o)

@ brad/futuristguy:
Twilight Labyrinth contains some stories about some of my former friends, in fact…

@numo … yike-a-bee … just yike-a-bee …

I don’t deny the reality of such influences nor the evil they produce. However, to conflate the book of Daniel’s few references on (apparent) principalities and powers into a theological plot line with occult ley lines that turns out aligned with a Dan Brown novel, is unbalanced. And doctrinal imbalances can be as dangerous as doctrinal absences, can’t they? Heresies often get their springboard in *some* truth but never in the whole, coherent truth …

Perhaps by “Super-Spiritual People” they mean the Orthodox? :-P. After all, our Philokalia is practically the definitive manual on fighting battles with demons.

Seriously though, these people seem to be running a cult. The discouragement of contact with mass media reminds me of the teachings of most of the heresiarch founders of authoritarian mega cults. Were not talking Mark Driscoll, but rather the late antipope Gregory XVII, founder of the Palmyrian Catholic Church, and of the course the founders of the Plymouth Brethren and Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Shepherding Movement also comes to mind. Any religion that systematically warns of the spiritual danger of reading criticisms of that religion or having dialogue with opponents thereof is a scam exploiting fundamental aspects of human psychology.

Now here is my Orthodox take on their demonology:

Demons cannot possess properly baptized Christians; the Orthodox Church would stress the protective benefits of chrismation, or confirmation as well. Regardless of what proper baptism is, the Consensus Patrum is clear that the ability of demons to attack members of the church, even catechumens, is restricted, and possession impossible.

The spells cast by practitioners of the occult have no impact on members of the Body of Christ, that is to say, the church. The most devoutly Christian country I know of is Ghana, and Ghanaian Christians have a very real belief in demons, and many are members of the church to protect them from the evil designs of Voudun practitioners. For my part, I believe that by and large, black magic is effective only on those who actually believe in its efficacy. The primary vector of attack is psychological. The Patristic corpus and indeed scriptures like the Book of Job do suggest the ability of demons to physically attack the faithful, but this is different from black magic, which is essentially superstition thar revolves around a shares consensus of belief between the practitioner and the victim, much like hypnosis. It has no objective reality other than the fact that it will cause harm to both parties, by alienating them from Christ. Thus, if this church is causing Christians to be afraid of black magic, they are actually making them vulnerable to it, which ties in to the cult mind control aspects of this religion, and puts a wedge between them and a living and unqualified faith in the Gospel.

Lydia wrote:

It is called a marketing niche. :o)

Probably. But then why are so many young people joining them, like this church, which I’m assuming has a majority of young couples. I don’t see how complementarianism is appealing to anybody under 30, maybe because it has a rebellious quality toward the culture?

brad/futuristguy wrote:

Nancy said: The whole thing sounds like they think they can control God. Do this. Say that. Require the other. Demand something, honestly? demand? That really sounds like the thinking behind witchcraft spun in the blender with some christian buzz words.

Having been closely involved with “strategic level intercession” and “spiritual mapping” and the like in the 1990s, I have to agree, Nancy. My understanding of the essence of certain aspects or types of *magick* is conducting rituals that in essence get cosmic forces to align the way you want. Part of what got me out of these doctrines and practices was seeing this formulaic/ritualistic thinking at work in spiritual warfare. “Strategic level prayer” and “confronting the principalities and powers” was the only way to “unbind” God from working so the Spirit could be released in a certain people group, city, or geographical location.

Ritual Magick.
Binding and loosing and controlling supernatural beings and powers through the proper incantations.
Aliester Crowley would be proud of them.
(Take it away, Ozzy…)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvYRpsgbEno

So much of the extended system here is based on thin to no biblical evidences (a few passages about the “Prince of Persia” and “Prince of Israel” as demonic or angelic forces), and building a superstructure on a weak, abiblical infrastracture.

Just like Medieval Angelology and Demonology; HUGE edifices of pure speculation built over generations, each generation taking the previous gen’s speculations as FACT until you had this huge elaborate edifice founded on minimal original sources.

numo wrote:

Amazing that they haven’t decided that the L’Enfant plan is of the devil!

No, just of the Freemasons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y
Or the Ponies…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpau88qPA-w

dee wrote:

It is like entering a whole new faith system and trying to figure it our.

For a beginner, you’re doing fantastic! I will warn you, though, because this environment is based on “what the Spirit is speaking” things can be very fluid. Just when you think you’ve figured something out the “Spirit” changes direction on you.

“But then again, I am probably one of those super-spiritual people that COH warns you about.”

Thank God.

Corbin Martinez wrote:

. I don’t see how complementarianism is appealing to anybody under 30, maybe because it has a rebellious quality toward the culture?

Corbin, you have made my day, and thanks to Nancy for reminding us that you are 17. “Complementarianism” is sold as being opposed to the degradation of culture generally, but specifically WRT gender. So, does somebody want to be faithful to God or capitulate to cultural pressure? Actually, what they’re doing is applying their own subcultural pressure and hoping no one stops to think about it and notices the rhetorical trickery. That’s the sales pitch, and a lot of young people find that compelling. It’s totally a straw man, but there it is. Logic is not the strong suit of the “complementarians.”

@ brad/futuristguy:
Yes indeed!

While i used to believe as you do re. demons, i have moderated in my position. To deny the existence of evil is foolish, but equally, to deny that the vast majority of evil is stuff that is of human origin is, imo, equally shortsighted and true folly. (you know that passage where Jesus said something about that whivh comes from within being that which defiles, right?)

I could say more, but am sleepy and had better save it for another time.

Fwiw, those ex-YWAM connections in the D.C. area are something that fits into my own version of what we could call the spiritual paranoia narrative… 😉

@ brad/futuristguy:
I was at someone’s house for dinner when one of the hosts told me that they wanted my research skills to help them “triangulate” a Wagner-Otis ley lines mashup. I had never even heard of that aspect of “spiritual mapping” and felt like i should have run out of there screaming. Truthfully, i never wanted any part of that and didn’t read Wagner; didn’t read Twilight Labyrinth until some years after my exit and was amazed that i survived for so long in that environment.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
But since they believe Gfreemasonry is of the devil, well then… (not making that up, either.)

@ Gram3:
Pygmy goats are incredibly cute. And naughty, which appeals to me, since buns are exactly that, too.

@ dee:
And, for fans of classic Doctor Who, Venusian aikido! (Didn’t make that up, either – it was Doctor #3’s particular showoff move.)

@ Gram3:
Oh man, “hedge of protection.” Wish i had never heard that one IRL.

@ numo:
Princesses, that is.

numo wrote:

That and something called “prophetic twirling,” which is apparently practiced by some of them. No, I’ve never seen it, and no, i wm not making it up.

WTF is “Prophetic Twirling”?

“Just like The Occult, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”?

@ dee:
My parents are Pentecostal. 😀

Corbin Martinez wrote:

Mohler says egalitarianism was totally in vogue in the 80’s

Mohler is a master composer of narrative. What he means is that in the 1980’s people who were otherwise conservative Bible scholars started looking at the usual suspect proof-texts, only without the cultural presuppositions. IOW, it became a little more difficult to plausibly dismiss them as “liberals.”

If you’ve noticed, their preferred well-poisoning label now is “feminist” in the hope that will tarnish the radical idea that men and women are created equal. Oh, and they try to say that egalitarians believe that men and women are identical. Straw men all around.

Since you are home-schooled, you have the opportunity to study logic and develop critical reasoning skills. It will serve you and the Body of Christ well. I do think that the impulse to diverge from parents is understandable, but not at the expense of sound exegesis.

@ Gram3:
I don’t know for sure, but some of these folks *are* into having tall glag girls marching around… i almost passed out when i actually saw that happen at what i had assumed was a Christmas concert. Poor choir aside, it was more like Rockettes for Jesus’ half-time show. (I’d forgotten all about it until you mentioned baton twirling.)

@ Gram3:
Cinderella’s castle was surrounded by briars and thorns and such…

@Headless Unicorn Guy said: They’re into Ley Line Geomancy now? Just this is the first time I’ve heard the term “Ley Line” in a Christianese context as opposed to Paranormal/Fringe/Occult.

@numo said: They sure don’t call it that, but only because they condemn it under the name “ley lines.” It’s essentially the same thing, though. But the evil principalities are the ones who set up the boundaries; humans are supposedly able to trap and overthow them if they triangulate correctly so as to make for more effective prayer-walking and rebuking and boundary line rituals snd whatnot.

To add my comments to those: As best I can remember, I heard about ley lines in the spiritual mapping training of 1994, if not before. So, this is not something particularly new within the strategic level prayer worldview.

I picture ley lines as like the airline destination and flight-line maps at the back of the in-flight magazine. Ley lines form a sort of an occult “power grid” that is tied to the land and to certain towns and specific “hot spot sites” along those lines in between. A sort of geo-political-spiritual “principalities” map, as it were.

So, our “job” is to track the locations that form this power grid of criss-crossed lines, pray against whatever practices and places of evil are along those power lines, find boundary milestone spots (often at where several ley lines cross) and do ceremonious types of redemptive rituals there (like pray over the spots, rebuke evil spirits, I think I even recall reading about placing/burying “consecrated” articles in those places). This may all sound good, but eventually it crosses over the line into overfocus on the occult and, in my opinion, that’s when and why it starts coming across as a *National Treasure* movie-type plotline with those ley lines. Sort of like “white ops” instead of “black ops,” perhaps?

And this is not about intelligence; intellectually smart people can fall prey to spiritually bad ideas. The people I’ve known who got highly involved with this seem very sharp mentally, knowledgeable scripturally, and very serious about their faith. But neither IQ nor Bible knowledge nor sincerity never have and never will automatically equate to biblical wisdom.

@ brad/futuristguy:
I’m more of the opinion that we’re supposed to quit blocking the light! And that goes far beyond the so-called spiritual warfare crew. We try so hard to create results for God that we miss him – and what he’s actually doing – entirely, because we’re so preocvupied with our own busy-ness. His commands are really pretty simple, no?

As for people burying objects and such, I’m aware that it happens, but have never sern it done or heard anyone advocate it from the pulpit (err, make that platfotm).

Okay – just read the post and have not read any comments yet..but need to get this out.

Everything you listed in this post is what I grew up being taught. Every. Single. Point. And it was even stronger in the church I left 8 years ago. Reading this causes a visceral response. Adrenaline release. Fight or flight. Even after all this time. At least I understand what it is and no longer believe that that response is the result of ‘reading something I should not have read and opening a door to demons.’

I know that reading their list is something that kind of seems surreal to those who are new to it. But to those of us that grew up immersed in it, it is ugly real and very damaging.

Although the ARC is relatively new, as you pointed out, their doctrines are not. So here are some observations on the effects from the inside, as it were….

Their teaching creates a mentality where we are implicitly encouraged to simultaneously look down on and fear those who do not believe as we do. This will devolve into applying it to anyone who is not a vetted member of the group. They take phrases – words recorded in the NT and rip them out of their place and twist them to use toward this end:
“Persecuted for righteousness’ sake,”
“In this world you will have trouble,”
“If they hate Me they will hate you,”
to cite a few.

The concept is instilled that no one outside the ‘family’ will understand. Even others who claim to be believers but do not believe what we believe will not understand and even persecute us.
“We are better than them and they know it on some level and will hate us for it.”
“Anyone outside out ‘faith’ [family – church] is either demon controlled or at least demon influenced and cannot be trusted. If we spend too much time with them, even if (or especially if) they are family, they will try to deceive us.”

And through these things, we fade into the group in fear of the outside and feel a false sense of safety – security – within the group.

My emotions are deep on this one. I know what I described about sounds like a cult. There is a reason for that….

And here I was thinking it was the 1st Church of Harry Potter with that beautiful Texas redhead Robert Morris as Dumbledore. Pentecostal Demon Karate is more like it. Dies that make Mark Driscoll the Karate Kid? That’ll play for a while! Poor misunderstood guy from the Great Tattooed NorthWest moves to the Bible Belt in search of a fresh start, and tries out spiritual jujitsu — wax on wax off!! @Gram3 @Corbin Martinez, you are on fire tonight!!
@ dee:

And here I was thinking it was the 1st Church of Harry Potter with that beautiful Texas redhead Robert Morris as Dumbledore. Pentecostal Demon Karate is more like it. Dies that make Mark Driscoll the Karate Kid? That’ll play for a while! Poor misunderstood guy from the Great Tattooed NorthWest moves to the Bible Belt in search of a fresh start, and tries out spiritual jujitsu — wax on wax off!! @Gram3 @Corbin Martinez, you are on fire tonight!!

Gram3 wrote:

What he means is that in the 1980’s people who were otherwise conservative Bible scholars started looking at the usual suspect proof-texts, only without the cultural presuppositions. IOW, it became a little more difficult to plausibly dismiss them as “liberals.”

That makes more sense. I’ve been trying to understand why the reformed Baptists say they came back into “power” (my word not theirs) in the 90’s.

And yeah, they’ve defined feminists as the most hateful, intolerant, atheistic, Marxist, existentialist, lesbian, physically unattractive, puppy killing people to ever walk the earth. The rhetoric is just as bad as a small news outlet with the journalists who think they have all the answers. It’s everywhere, in very different denominations. I guess they saw some radicals from the 60’s and their masculinity got scared for life. Now whenever they see a woman with short hair and no makeup, they get panic attacks and thank God their wives aren’t like that.

@ numo:
I still have friends that are to greater or lesser degrees influenced by this teaching. It is challenging – at work, one of the local pastors who is into this has been hired and sits in the cube next to me. In the past, I have been to a couple of ‘prayer meeting’ at his church, so he knows me. Awkward.

I just thought of another side effect this teaching has on it’s followers – the concept of ‘we can all heal the sick, raise the dead.’ Here’s the thing. I do still believe these things are possible.

However, the way it is taught in these places, it is expected that every member should be able to do it at any time. So, when confronted with a life event where a relative gets sick, things can get very dicey. When my uncle, who was a retired pastor, had a stroke and was in the hospital and not doing well (he was 83 at the time), I felt an enormous amount of pressure that I should go pray for him and raise him up. I didn’t do it – I think at least on a sub-conscious level, I knew it would be a violation of his dignity. He died after a couple of days and it took a while after I left that church, before I was able to shed the guilt of not praying for him and raising him up healed.

Even worse, when I was 8, my grandmother died. I missed her terribly. Because of what I was taught at home and in church, I felt like she could be raised from the dead. I even had dreams about it being done. I felt guilt that I could not do it. Yeah. This s*** runs deep.

Lisa wrote:

Dies that make Mark Driscoll the Karate Kid? That’ll play for a while! Poor misunderstood guy from the Great Tattooed NorthWest moves to the Bible Belt in search of a fresh start, and tries out spiritual jujitsu — wax on wax off!!

Just a thought…… if demons have genders…..can you imagine if he found an effeminate male demon? Boy!

Gram3 wrote:

Because, if you remember from ancient history, the Roman empire was decadent because the Christians were not upholding proper gender roles and women were taking over, right?

I thought the Romans were so perverse because of the greeks’ influence on them. Those greeks, the world’s first feminists. Always downplaying masculinity and letting their women have positions of authority over them. Do you need more proof?

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

William G. wrote:
Seriously though, these people seem to be running a cult.
SEEM to be?

Forgive me for my understatement; though I am an American, I have lived so long in the UK that I have what you might call a mid-Atlantic accent, and a rather posh one at that; I’m rather fond of the South. So yes indeed, ARC is a cult, plain and simple, and a dangerous one at that.

Jeannette Altes wrote:

They take phrases – words recorded in the NT and rip them out of their place and twist them to use toward this end:
“Persecuted for righteousness’ sake,”
“In this world you will have trouble,”
“If they hate Me they will hate you,”
to cite a few.

There’s another one along these lines, that if you are an effective Christian, you will suffer constant attack, and especially if you enter into spiritual warfare. I’m not able to express this concept really well, perhaps others can.

Sopwith wrote:

Has any one at Wartburg Watch encountered evil spirits? If so, how did you respond?

I’m curious Sopy, have you? (I’ll tell you mine, if you tell me yours)

Gram3 wrote:

prophesying with baton signals

A relative has a BYO banner which accompanies him to church for worship time. It’s pretty huge. Unfortunately he also takes it with him to churches where he is a guest/stranger. Not the most beneficent accoutrement, but I only saw grace reflected at his less than social appropriateness (imo)…

Haitch wrote:

LT wrote:
These ARC churches are selling a false bill of goods while collecting staggering amounts of cash through their Cursed Life theology which ONLY works when all your subjects believe in demons and that all Christians can be possessed. Hence, the “real” reason for so much focus on the demonic.
Your comment got me thinking. I wonder how much of this is prevalent outside North America, eg Central and South America, Africa, and even Australia/Indonesia/Pacific/Philippines. I’ve got no idea. I’m still trying to get my head around the ARC, and how it might be different, as it seems to be the same ideas that have existed in the past, and are still in currency in some quarters.

Brazil is strongly into the miracle crusades and mass deliverances from demonic possession. They charge large amounts of money upfront to the hurting people for both services whether they work or not. GW has a Brazilian partner church.

However, more recently, GW has begun heavily exporting their Cursed Life message along with their beliefs about demons being attached to Christians and how to exorcise them, all over Europe, particularly in the UK and Germany. These countries’ ministry leaders are quite eager to be peddled the demoniac theology in order to help their congregant’s “close the door” to these demons attacking them and their children when they miss their 10% weekly tithe payment. By using the “Easy Tithe” System no more pesky demons for the faithful giving units – at least for as long as your payments stay current. Historically, European pastors have had modest lifestyles. With the promise of million dollar homes and a stable full of sports cars, they can’t get GW and their heretical doctrine spread across Europe fast enough. It’s really sad that they are making it so easy to ruin their centuries old churches all in the name of money.

@ LT:
Ah, thanks. Morris keeps interesting company here: http://empowered21.com/about/leadership/

RM usually comes to Hillsong London once per year with the tithing message. Last year I think they just played a video recording of him doing same some place else – I don’t think he could make it in person. Pastor Gary Clarke always pushes three books for new Christians – Classic Christianity – by Bob George, the Blessed Life by Robert Morris and one other that I forget now.
Hillsong London also runs a course on finances that i suspect makes a big point of tithing.
(OT but they also run a wild at heart course based on Eldredge’s book. boy was that a waste of £70)

Gram3 wrote:

If you’ve noticed, their preferred well-poisoning label now is “feminist” in the hope that will tarnish the radical idea that men and women are created equal. Oh, and they try to say that egalitarians believe that men and women are identical. Straw men all around.

Yes, in their view feminist equals matriarchy. Women in charge instead of men. Because someone has to be in charge of the adults, right? They cannot wrap their heads around mutualism. All the “one anothers” throughout scripture have a pecking order to them. There has to be a pecking order in their worldview. Basically, it is a character flaw.

I went through a phase I called them masculinists. That went over well. (wink)

Corbin Martinez wrote:

If you have more faith, you’d be able to cast the evil out of the ivy without going outside. Speak it into existence.

I do have a cast iron dutch oven of sorts. Will that suffice for a cauldron?

Nancy wrote:

Now the pendulum has swung back. I think the excesses of comp-ism may be an overreaction to some of the excesses of feminism, and the professional proponents push it because it “sells” with what Lydia said about the culture wars.

Communism begets Objectivism.

Lydia wrote:

Yes, in their view feminist equals matriarchy. Women in charge instead of men. Because someone has to be in charge of the adults, right?

Because to these guys, there is Only Power Struggle.

And when all that exists is Power Struggle, there are only two possible states: His boot stamping on her face or her boot stamping on his face. And the only way to avoid one is to make gorram sure of the other. Forever.

Lydia wrote:

Just look at CBMW. It has not been bringing in the donations and poor Owen is doing all he can to get attention and be a player. I have no doubt his market consists pretty much of young pastors in the YRR movment.

There’s a post here at TWW about the income of CBMW vs CBE and the stats speak for themselves. Which is weird to me. CBE comes off as very low key and tiny, while CBMW looks as if they’re so busy they barely have enough time to write their blog posts.

I recently listened to owen strachen interviewed by mark dever. That was eye opening. For most of the interview dever lists strachen’s jobs and books, while strachen gives details of each. He sounds so busy and fufilled you wonder how he had the time to do the interview.

One part stood out. Dever asks him what church he’s attending, and he says,“ I go to…oh wait, I mean I’M A MEMBER OF….” while dever said,“ uh.. ok good.” They laughed and made it sound cute but you could still hear some tension in dever’s voice.

Nancy wrote:

I do have a cast iron dutch oven of sorts. Will that suffice for a cauldron?

You beat me there, I couldn’t make a good reply.

Nancy wrote:

So what you are saying about the generations defining themselves as being other than the preceding generation certainly fits in with that.

I think it’s a part of the YRR people. It looks like most of them didn’t grow up with the teachings of the group, but now they’re all sexy(in marriage) puritans. The emphasis on *“doctrine”* might be a part of their identity they’re trying to solidify in their 20’s. Maybe I think this because I’m a teenager?

@ brad/futuristguy:
Good post, and this kind of thing was one reason amongst others why I made a sharp exit from the charismatic movement. It had seen some truth – spiritual warfare – that many sleepy evangelicals had missed, then gone way overboard with it.

Does Jude v 8-9 mean anything to you on this score?

dee wrote:

Stop making me laugh. I am trying to drink my coffee so I can think.

Humor and sarcasm are my stronger points. I’m just trying to be a blessing.

Nancy wrote:

Sarcasm Alert!
Having read this post I now understand the problem with the ivy. Demonic influence. As soon as we get past this cold spell I am going to walk around my back 40 and command all evil to abandon the ivy and go back there in my neighbor’s yard (the one who complained about the white pines.) Then when that happens, I am going to demand that the kudzu leave first this area then the entire south. Having done that I will give interviews and appearances, write a book, develop a weekend seminar presentation and apply for some sort of honorary doctorate in botany. Then I will set up a trust with the money and do wonderful things to the glory of you know who. (Me) Yes, well there is the rub is it not? I can hear the evil in the ivy now, Jesus we know and Paul we know but you, little old lady, seem to have lost you ever loving mind.

Oh Nancy, please film yourself doing this & post it here. I just want to see it done so I can then bring this important spiritual ministry into the UK 😉

@ Sopwith:
🙂

  __

“Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God?”

hmmm…

Haitch
&Nancy, 

Hey,

  Yes, I have certainly benefited from witnessing the work of angels both fallen and un-fallen. Better still, I have witnessed our heavenly Father’s sovereignty over all, and His precious Son’s tender care… 

hum, hum, hum, Jesus loves me dis I know cuz da bible tellz me so, lit’l ones to Him belong, they are weak, but He is sooooooooooo strong…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owx3ao42kwI

(cheese)

…”Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you…”

SKreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch !

(bunp)

“Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.” ~ Jesus

(smiley face goes here)

ATB

Sopy

—

Corbin Martinez wrote:

What? Eldridge doesn’t seem like the type of person they’d approve of. Too mystical. But I guess they would like his emphasis on stereotypical masculinity and femininity.

“Wild at Heart” was required reading for wannabe members of the now-defunct La Familia Michoacana drug cartel.

Here’s what Eldredge had to say about that to the Washington Post:

“At first, I was really mad that they hijacked my book for their purposes,” he said. “But on second thought . . . maybe it will touch the hearts of the people who use [it].”

*snort*

Dude, it’s a DRUG CARTEL. Bad business all around. You don’t give them ANYTHING.

Link to article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/09/AR2010070905154.html

Corbin Martinez wrote:

This ARC seems to be in the same group only minus the Calvinism and add Pentecostal demon karate.

I had to call this out: “Pentecostal demon karate”! It made me ROTFL! I must remember this for the future.

@ mirele:

thank you for this I had no idea!

mirele wrote:

Dude, it’s a DRUG CARTEL. Bad business all around. You don’t give them ANYTHING.

I very vaguely remember hearing about that a long time ago but didn’t investigate it, thanks for reminding me.

I fell into the trap of liking Wild at heart when I read it at 13-14. Only at around 16 did I go back and look over what he actually said carefully. I was suprised by how cheesy the examples of what femininity and masculinity want were. It wasn’t really any different than the rest of evangelicalism, he just writes in a way to make it seem more cosmic and mystical, which is the appeal.

Sopwith wrote:

__
Has any one at Wartburg Watch encountered evil spirits? If so, how did you respond?
–

Yes. Long story(s). But church movements like what we are discussing today? Scarier.

mirele wrote:

I had to call this out: “Pentecostal demon karate”!

I have no copyrights, use it.

Haitch wrote:

@ LT:
Ah, thanks. Morris keeps interesting company here: http://empowered21.com/about/leadership/

One of the leaders listed, Myles Munroe, died recently in a plane crash I believe.

Nancy wrote:

I do have a cast iron dutch oven of sorts. Will that suffice for a cauldron?

All I’ve got is a 30 year old crock pot, Nancy, but I can make it work, I’m sure. Now I just need to memorize Macbeth Act IV scene 1.

mirele wrote:

“At first, I was really mad that they hijacked my book for their purposes,” he said. “But on second thought . . . maybe it will touch the hearts of the people who use [it].”
*snort*
Dude, it’s a DRUG CARTEL. Bad business all around. You don’t give them ANYTHING.

Only rationale (rationalization?) I can think of is “But SOULS Might Be SAVED!”

And Saved Souls(TM) are Christianese Currency, cashed in on J-Day.

Beakerj wrote:

Corbin Martinez wrote:
dee wrote:
Stop making me laugh. I am trying to drink my coffee so I can think.
Humor and sarcasm are my stronger points. I’m just trying to be a blessing.

Sarcasm is my native language & I’m really enjoying having you here

Ditto. Totally enjoying Corbin.

Corbin Martinez wrote:

I thought the Romans were so perverse because of the greeks’ influence on them. Those greeks, the world’s first feminists. Always downplaying masculinity and letting their women have positions of authority over them.

As in “Women for Breeding Stock, Men for Love, Boys for Pleasure”?

dee wrote:

William G. wrote:
say the name of the Lord, the Jesus Prayer, the Lord’s Prayer, or make the sign of the cross.
Why must you say it or make a symbol? Isn’t the Lord’s presence in your life enough to scare away anything harmful?

Apparently not, because in my youth I had to pray to break out of nightmares, and in this case, I made the sign of the cross. All my Orthodox pastors have told me this is what you do when you’re frightened.

Put it another way, I believe God absolutely respects our free will. I am not a Calvinist. I believe that unless we at least mentally ask God to take action against an overt evil entity, he won’t. God will let us interact with and even align ourselves with the forces of darkness if that is our wish; Kallistos Ware wrote that the one thing God cannot do, the one limit to his power, is to force us to love Him of our own free will. Thus while I do believe our guardian angels protect us from routine mishaps involving traffic, falling objects et cetera, and some of these are naturally occurring, and others are demons trying to annoy us, when we become consciously aware of something evil we must ask God to remove it for us.

It should be observed that many people who are into the occult relish any contact with the otherworldly. What I saw was a dark region looming towards my position; I have excellent. Isn’t vision and this wasn’t a shadow; imagine a cloud of black opaque gas. It vanished when I made the sign of the cross. On one other occasion when I was half asleep I saw a menacing claw like that of a spider coming at me, but in that case I believe it was a lingering nightmare or one of those hallucinations like the sound of people talking or of explosions that one hears while on the border between the waking and somnolescent states.

Haitch wrote:

@ LT:
Ah, thanks. Morris keeps interesting company here: http://empowered21.com/about/leadership/

Looks like a list of The Usual Suspects. I see the guy who brought us the abomination known as “Hobby Lobby” is among them.

(Why “Hobby Lobby” is an abomination: An FLDS man was able to use the case’s precedent to avoid questioning in a case involving possible child labor violations. I wish I was lying. http://time.com/3388117/flds-successfully-cites-hobby-lobby-decision-in-child-labor-suit/ )

@ Corbin Martinez:

You might be surprised at how little those guys actually attend their local church. Too busy I suppose.

Do you remember the name of the church he stated? Wonder if it is the same one his father in law attends. Even some of my Calvinist friends here from SBTS call it the Baptist frozen chosen church. It is that hyper.

dee wrote:

William G. wrote:
say the name of the Lord, the Jesus Prayer, the Lord’s Prayer, or make the sign of the cross.
Why must you say it or make a symbol? Isn’t the Lord’s presence in your life enough to scare away anything harmful?

By the way, weren’t you or deb raised Russian Orthodox? I was received into Antioch and went Russian later for reasons of convenience, but I am considering a job in OCA territory. Anyway, when I was chatechized (which was actually after I received, the elderly Archpriest of the cathedral took the Chrismate first, teach later approach, perhaps based on the deep intellectual understanding of Orthodoxy I had acquired before I showed up just before Easter wanting in); we were briefed on the sign of the cross and when to use it. I would assume in the Russian church they teach you the same thing?

Anyway as I said I believe God respects our free will to the point where He won’t protect us from something of an other wordly nature, where we have time to ask us for His protection, unless we do. Otherwise, if no such time exists, I believe our guardian angels will stop automatically. I believe this also applies to threats in the real world; if mugged, it be hooves one to say a mental prayer, but if God wishes you to remain alive, and a car spirals our of control in front of you on the freeway, your guardian angel will keep you safe. I saw that happened and apparently God desired both of us to remain alive, and the lady who spiraled out at 70 MPH was able to limp away, although I reckon her suspension was more than a little screwed up based on how her car listed.

On the same section of the freeway, at the same time of day (the 101 in NoHo) I was in a hit and run but was able to maintain control through the grace of God, and my car at the time, a 2010 Buick LaCrosee, sustained only minor damage. I sold it though because the darn steering column adjustment mechanism was always coming loose, and I believe God will not protect us from accidents we know are inevitable.

Reverting to ARC, I noticed something troubling on their website: their church planting program is available only to married couples. The most successful church planters in history, the holy Apostles Paul, Peter and Thomas, were celibate, as were Gregory the Illuminator, Nino of Georgia, Frumentius, Cyril and Methodius, Patrick and Columba, Boniface, and in the new world, Junipero Sera (although his “church plants” were more slave labor camps than Christian missions) and Herman of Alaska. While I don’t object to husband and wife teams planting churches, it seems to me that in such a role, the wife is going to have to earn most of the money, not that there’s anything wrong with that; if both work,full time on the church, unless they resort to unscrupulous techniques, it seems to me they won’t have enough money for children, a house or other fixtures of domestic life.

LT, you said it best. I pointed out that Hodges went to a pentecostal seminary because I know many members have no idea they are essentially attending a pentecostal church. I can’t tell you how many times people have told me it’s a charismatic baptist church. Also, many attenders come from other churches and were not previously “unchurched.” If it’s not about the money, why put satellites right down the street from a large, established church? Why not put some in poor areas, such as Columbiana instead of Hoover or Inverness? COH does do some great things, such as the prison ministry, but they take in huge amounts of money. Last month they spent 3.3 million on land in Tuscaloosa to build a permanent church. No telling what the actual building will cost. Why is it necessary to have the biggest, bestest facilities in town? If you build it, they will come?

Gram3 wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
mirele wrote:
I’m one of those short-haired, no-makeup women.
But do you wear Comfortable Shoes(TM)?

Wait. What did I miss? If I have orthotics is my femininity totally toast?

Reference to a Robin Williams bit in Good Morning Vietnam that I can’t find online. Here it is from memory:

“…finger in the dike. You can’t say ‘dike’ on the air… You can’t even say ‘Lesbian’, it’s ‘Woman in Comfortable Shoes’…”

Albuquerque Blue wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Because you have to vocalize the incantation EXACTLY right for the Spell to work.

Hah, exactly what I was thinking. I’d say they took playing D&D a little to seriously, but if they’re this charismatic I’m sure they think RPG’s are demonic to.

As an Old School D&Der during The Satanic Panic, I figure they were trying to shank the competition to their own RPG. At least with D&D, all the rest of us IRL don’t get cast as Orcs, Mobs, and Monsters for the killing.

I grew up in churches all into this stuff. Anyone remember Frank Peretti’s “This Present Darkness”? I swear people thought it was a textbook or current events reporting on real life.

THAT is an occupational hazard of any F&SF writer, especially in the “Weird Fiction” genres. There’s a famous essay by Mercedes Lackey called “The Last Straw” (http://www.mindspring.com/~toxiccow/14_0207.html – poor copy, but only one I could find online) about similar fanboy craziness blurring the line between True Fiction and False Fact regarding her “Diana Tregarde” fantasy series (“occult detective” sub-genre).

It’s especially pronounced in the Christianese bubble, whose hyper-literalism treats everything as FACT FACT FACT and the only Fiction is pretty lame. As mentioned in Slacktivist years ago, they have never experienced “True Fiction” and when they actually do, they are overpowered by it, mistaking Fiction for Fact.

As for Peretti himself, my feelings on his stuff are very mixed. He DID start a new original genre, though reminiscent of ancient Greek and Chinese theater where the Immortals were above, the Mortals below, what happened on either stage influenced the other but the Mortals were not conscious of it. And mixed in “technothriller” elements like a supernatural Tom Clancy.

Yet his early stuff was too “Conventional Christianese Shtick”. I don’t have the time right now to include examples, but later I heard that Peretti was the type of author who needs a strong editor to really shine, and he didn’t have one until later in his career. So a lot of stuff that an editor should have caught and sent back made it through to publication.

Canna Berrong wrote:

Also, many attenders come from other churches and were not previously “unchurched.”

Two words: SHEEP RUSTLING.

Corbin Martinez wrote:

Oh man!!!!! I forgot about that stuff. Guess not so feminist.
I guess we’re supposed to have their real, true masculinity, just without the overly affectionate tendencies.

Long ago, I concluded that ANY Male Supremacist culture is going to have a love-hate relationship with male homosexuality.

On one hand, they’re going to feel a pull towards it. Since women are nothing more than livestock, the only way to have sex with another person (as opposed to a woman) is with another man.

Yet they will also have a revulsion and taboo against it, best described in prison slang for rape: “Making a Woman out of Him.” Because it requires a man to be Penetrated like a mere Woman. (Joke definition of “Homophobia”: “The fear that another man will use you like you use a woman.”)

The usual resolution is to redefine sex as Penetrator and Penetrated and focus all the hatred of breaking the taboo on the Penetrated, while the Penetrator is protected by privilege of rank. And so it goes back to Animal Forced Dominance Display.

Oh, brother! So sad.

I have seen other fallen ministers gravitate toward charismatic circles. It’s no surprise MDA is headed that way.

I was against the SBC International Mission Board’s decision several years ago requiring baptism in a certain type of church. But I was in favor of the ban on so-called “prayer languages” for the very reasons illustrated by this post. People in these camps are often fellow travelers and wonderful Christian people become influenced by theology like this.

People in these churches could benefit so much from a good church history class and some basic teaching about the Bible.

__

…the seed of ‘the woman’ indeed bruised the serpent’s head at Calvary, yet, religion is still the warmest of all places for the serpent to hide.

—

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

The object of the Test cricket is…

At one point, many years ago, I thought about maybe trying to figure out just what was going on in cricket (I’m a USAmerican). Then, late one night while driving home from somewhere or other, I was listening to the BBC – some of the Public Radio stations here in the US would fill out the night watch with the Beeb. I realized, as the announcer was meticulously describing a cricket match, indeed a whole tournament, that I had essentially no idea what he was talking about. And I liked it!

I know a little bit about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things. But I intend to remain ignorant of the ins and outs of cricket, because it makes the world seem that much bigger and more mysterious.

Thank you.

mirele wrote:

Doug wrote:
Condolences to the families of those killed in the plane crash.
That said, I’d be curious to find out who is the owner of the Lear 36 Executive Jet. That’s not a commercial airliner.

The pilot was Stanley Thurston. According to his linked-in profile he was Chief Pilot at Diplomat Aviation Bahamas Ltd. And….on the website for Myles Munroe’s ministry they have a “ministry” division called Diplomat Aviation Division. https://bfmmm.com/bfmi-vision-mission.aspx (scroll to the bottom of the page)

So, essentially he was in his personal jet. I think I may have met the man somewhere, so I was curious, too.

@ roebuck:

Some friends from England brought the kids a plastic cricket set to teach them the game while here. The kids kept playing baseball. No matter what…it was baseball to them. Hilarious. Then there was also the language barrier. :o)

JeffT wrote:

I actually find it easier to understand the Trinity than cricket.

That’s a good one! LOL!

@ Corbin Martinez:

Thanks. I am familiar with it. That church went YRR years ago. It was one of the ones they got lock stock and barrel. If you check out their site: Note the top 2 elders. One, Jim Hamilton, is pastor of preaching and the other, Denny Burk is associate pastor. Both of these men are full time at SBTS which means they are double dipping as preachers. Denny Burke used to be the CBMW guru.

There is a lot of this double dipping happening at SBTS. They get by with it doing things like “preaching only” no pastoring. Russ Moore, formerly of SBTS, did this for years at Highview when Ezell left to take over NAMB.

The churches in turn think they are honored to have a full time seminary prof as preacher.

@ Lydia:
At one part of the interview, Strachan talks about returning to the “historical” reformed model of the “pastor-theologian”. These guys sure are loyal, you got to give them that.

Haitch wrote:

Also, I don’t know if TWW has had previous discussion on those churches who call themselves ‘non-denominational’, I’m interested in the why and how of their origins – how they have evolved. To date, I’ve just seen them as denominational churches masking themselves with a modern name that doesn’t reflect their core beliefs, making it a little more difficult to establish from the outset just where they are coming from. Hillsong in Sydney comes to mind. I’m thinking of another one called, ‘Evolve’. Am I approaching this the wrong way? Do the denomination labels of old no longer apply – at all? Do I need to think more syncretically?

First off, great catch on the Empowered 21. That is 100% Pentecostal! I don’t think regular members have a clue how Pentecostalled up GW Leadership is. In their membership classes they make a big point of saying they are NOT Pentecostal nor do they follow standard Pentecostal practices.

Many churches deliberately hide their actual denomination and agenda in order to attract new customers. Baptists in particular specifically encourage their plants to use non-Baptisty names that often include “fellowship” or “community” or “life” in their title so they can appeal to a broader audience. They also strip Baptist values out of their mission statements and hide the fact that they are funded by the NAMB. The plan is to build the church up first, then sneak in the Baptist stuff later. I know multiple Baptist church planters and they are fine with this strategy since they believe that the “how” doesn’t matter. Oddly, Dallas Theological Seminary offers huge discounts to students who will identify themselves as Baptists (even in name only) before they turn around after graduation and then hide their Baptist roots till they have a large enough congregation.

It’s astonishing that so many churches start off shrouded in deception as if that could ever be pleasing in the eyes of The Lord regardless of your rationalization. It’s all done in the name of numbers. I’d also like to see a TWW post on this duplicitous practice.

numo wrote:

@ Gram3:
Cinderella’s castle was surrounded by briars and thorns and such…

Actually it’s Aurora’s (Sleeping Beauty’s).

I still like princess stories. And we recently saw Maleficent, which is an amazing story for another day.

@ Nancy:

My cousins left after 20 years in a third world country because they could not sign the new BFM 2000 in good conscience. You see when her husband was out in the bush working with new church plants she led the service back at home. Nevermind she had an M Div and Music degree from SBTS before the CR.

they were too honest to sign it after the part about women not being allowed to pastor was added.

Lydia wrote:

My cousins left after 20 years in a third world country because they could not sign the new BFM 2000 in good conscience.

A couple in this town also left over the BFM 2000, but it was a different issue for them.

@ Corbin Martinez:

Which means smart guy on a stage who knows best for you and doesn’t do hospital visits.

LT wrote:

Many churches deliberately hide their actual denomination and agenda in order to attract new customers. Baptists in particular specifically encourage their plants to use non-Baptisty names that often include “fellowship” or “community” or “life” in their title so they can appeal to a broader audience.

To the point that in the Eighties the definition was “Non-Denominational; you know, Baptist with the labels painted over?”

Doug wrote:

Why would anyone want to anchor their spiritual life to such a narrow window of time, and a narrow perspective like the “reformed model”?

Because CALVIN was God’s Anointed, and CALVIN Can Do No Wrong.
Who needs Christ when CALVIN has Perfectly Parsed Theology in micromanaging detail?
And the Truly Reformed/Faithful can become their own little CALVINs ruling their own little Genevas by Divine Right.

LT wrote:

It’s astonishing that so many churches start off shrouded in deception as if that could ever be pleasing in the eyes of The Lord regardless of your rationalization. It’s all done in the name of numbers. I’d also like to see a TWW post on this duplicitous practice.

Outside churches, isn’t this practice called BAIT AND SWITCH?

Nancy wrote:

Some of you historians enlighten me. Was there this much religious mess going on in the nineteenth century or thereabouts? Because what I am hearing is quite disturbing.

Don’t know about the 19th Century, but I’ve heard articles that the Reformation period was a bloodbath across Europe similar to what’s going on now in the Islamic world.

brad/futuristguy wrote:

And this is not about intelligence; intellectually smart people can fall prey to spiritually bad ideas. The people I’ve known who got highly involved with this seem very sharp mentally, knowledgeable scripturally, and very serious about their faith.

Among D&D aficionados there used to be a saying: “Intelligence 18, Wisdom 3”.

And one of my writing partners tells me about someone he knows in Colorado who is so into Spiritual Warfare(TM) that if a light bulb burned out on him, instead of changing the bulb he’d get out his Bible and start Rebuking the Demon that made the bulb burn out. And he’s into all diseases being caused by Demons and curable by Special Diets and nothing else. Oh, and according to my informant this guy’s got a security clearance high enough he could probably take nuclear weapons home on the weekend.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

Thanks.

“It just keeps getting weirder and weirder…”
— Johnny Bravo (baby!)

Lydia wrote:

they were too honest to sign it after the part about women not being allowed to pastor was added.

That is certainly a refreshing example. If only the stealthy church takeover artists would follow it and be honest about who they are and what they intend to do.

Lydia wrote:

@ Corbin Martinez:
Which means smart guy on a stage who knows best for you and doesn’t do hospital visits.

Or possibly reputedly smart though actually not particularly? Or possibly well-indoctrinated and skilled at parroting? Give me wise with common sense over test scores any day of any week. I don’t know how you remain sane at Ground Zero.

I often wonder if all of these amazingly intelligent guys could actually function outside the scripted bubble they have so carefully constructed to insulate themselves from the Real World where the rest of us who are less intelligent must live. I’m guessing no.

Doug wrote:

Btw, I am pretty sure that Jesus would say that Piper has an incomplete view of everything.

That makes Pastor John very disappointed and sad. Why do you want to deny God’s Glory and Sovereignty? Pastor John knows everything we need to know if we truly Desire God.

Doug wrote:

When you blend their brand of Calvinism with reconstruction thinking, that is when it get’s truly scary.

Which reminds me of Scary Gary North who also was cozy with the TBN crowd. It’s hard to get harder core than Gary. I thought it was an odd marriage, but his Dominionism trumps his Calvinism, I suppose. Power by any means, I think. If theirs is the kingdom they want to bring in, I think we are not talking about the same Kingdom.

Nancy wrote:

Doug wrote:
It makes me wonder if they will become powerful enough, in the future, to engage in the same kind of persecution of the people who disagree with their theology at some point.
They have already demonstrated their willingness to do so. I do not think they are a benign and peaceable group of folks.

Forgive me if I missed it, but to the shedding of blood?

Nancy wrote:

Let me ask you, do you remember the year (or thereabouts) when they did the baptism thing and when they did the prayer language thing? It may be a puzzle piece in something I am trying to figure out.

IIRC it was early to mid 00’s or thereabout if I’m thinking of the same thing.

Could not agree more about the unconscionable part. In addition, it was totally foolish from a strictly practical POV to waste what both the IMB and the individual missionaries had invested. And even worse the disruption to the people they were trying to reach and serve on the field.

So glad David Platt converted to supporting the Cooperative Program. I’m sure it had *nothing* to do with being appointed head of IMB. Surely this is something he had been pondering for many years. What a slap in the face to who knows how many qualified folks who have been faithfully giving and serving for years with IMB. And yes, I do have some particular folks in mind. But Platt is a loyalist, and that’s what is important these days.

Doug wrote:

Actually, I was going for a “lowering and softening effect.”

Well, I’m all for lowering and softening his effect on lots of people. But they are mesmerized by Pastor John.

Doug wrote:

Forgive me if I missed it, but to the shedding of blood?

No, so far only the consigning to damnation. But the mentality that lays the framework for bad stuff seems to me to be there.

@ Jenny Islander:
Well, you’re in a church that treats adult members like grown-ups who are able to think and make decisions for themselves. That’s a *big* difference between genuine religious institutions and cult-like of any kind (regardless of religion).

Doug wrote:

Nancy wrote:
Doug wrote:
It makes me wonder if they will become powerful enough, in the future, to engage in the same kind of persecution of the people who disagree with their theology at some point.
They have already demonstrated their willingness to do so. I do not think they are a benign and peaceable group of folks.

Forgive me if I missed it, but to the shedding of blood?

Ask ISIS/ISIL.

Muff Potter wrote:

If these folks ever got to power, I’ll wager that one of the first things they’d command is that all Jews must register.

I don’t know about the Morris group, but I think that if the calvinists ever got political power there would be a list of undesirables starting with those already on their list: homosexuals and women preachers and catholics and any type of non-cessationists and democrats, you see where I am going with this. They have already started down that road.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

The usual resolution is to redefine sex as Penetrator and Penetrated and focus all the hatred of breaking the taboo on the Penetrated, while the Penetrator is protected by privilege of rank. And so it goes back to Animal Forced Dominance Display.

I probably don’t want to continue this line of conversation too much further, but I’m trying to understand racists who have sex with those who they revile. To be blunt, in Australia part of our colonial history includes racist white men having sex with Aboriginal women. Not painting either group with a broad brush, and not saying all white men were like this, but I’m trying to understand, of those men who were disparaging towards Aboriginals, why then sex was still part of the equation (it has ramifications with the ‘stolen generation’ etc). Sex trumps racism or something? I think it’s the psychology of it that I’m trying to understand. Just used my country as an example, but I think this power/sex display or whatever it is, is universal.

Nancy wrote:

I don’t know about the Morris group, but I think that if the calvinists ever got political power there would be a list of undesirables starting with those already on their list: homosexuals and women preachers and catholics and any type of non-cessationists and democrats, you see where I am going with this. They have already started down that road.

There are pastors on record who have said that they want to imprison or kill all LGBT people. Most conservative evangelical and charismatic churches wouldn’t go that far, but yet I’ve never heard any of them speak up against such extremism.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Don’t know about the 19th Century, but I’ve heard articles that the Reformation period was a bloodbath across Europe

That it was. The only thing the Catholics and Lutherans agreed on was the killing of Anabaptists – who were pacifists.

Josh wrote:

There are pastors on record who have said that they want to imprison or kill all LGBT people.

I would be interested in knowing who these “pastors” are.

@ dee:

Oops sorry.

Sopwith wrote:

__

…the seed of ‘the woman’ indeed bruised the serpent’s head at Calvary, yet, religion is still the warmest of all places for the serpent to hide.

So very true Soppy.

–

@ Sopwith:

I missed this comment or I would have done what I said. I had one incident in which an evil presence was just suddenly there. I don’t know how I know that, but I just do. It was terrifying. It was when we were clearing out the house after my father died. I believe that the evil thing wanted us to get out of there and leave it be. I think it lived there. Again, how do I know that? I don’t. So I forced myself to speak to it. I first stated that I was in charge since Dad was dead and he had left me in charge. I then told it to leave us alone, and I said it in the name of Jesus. I wondered if one out to tell it to get out, but I was too scared to push the matter. And since I had sold the house and it was going to be demolished I did not worry about it any further. The sensation of the presence of evil abated as quickly as it started. It was a terrifying experience.

William G. wrote:

what do we know of their political aspirations, if any? Are they linked to the Al Mohler / Mark Dever school of Dominionism?

I wouldn’t characterize the YRR as Dominionists or Reconstructionists or even Theonomists. They are authoritarian, so perhaps in the future they might see fit to join forces. It is interesting that TgC and Piper and Crossway think that Reconstructionist Doug Wilson is AOK, and that is truly frightening.

If you want to read up on these characters, you can check out Chalcedon Foundation’s website. That is the name of Rousas Rushdoony’s organization. Rushdoony was quite active in the Religious Right activism of the 1980’s, working right alongside with some of our Gospel Glitterati. Rushdoony took Kuyper and went absolutely wild with stuff that is scary, at least to me. Gary North is/was Rushdoony’s son-in-law, IIRC, and he is the Scary Gary North of Y2K fame.

Doug Wilson and the crew at New St. Andrews in Moscow, ID are Reconstructionists, though they probably would prefer to leave that association behind and would style themselves as mere postmillennial liturgical reformers. That is not what they are about.

@William G.

__

…least the thought be lost to you, Wm. G., the topic Jesus was referring was subjection of spirits, which holds just as true today as it did when He first spoke it.

Respectfully, snake mis-handlers be d@mned. 

Sopy

—

Nancy wrote:

@

I missed this comment or I would have done what I said. I had one incident in which an evil presence was just suddenly there. I don’t know how I know that, but I just do. It was terrifying. It was when we were clearing out the house after my father died. I believe that the evil thing wanted us to get out of there and leave it be. I think it lived there. Again, how do I know that? I don’t. So I forced myself to speak to it. I first stated that I was in charge since Dad was dead and he had left me in charge. I then told it to leave us alone, and I said it in the name of Jesus. I wondered if one out to tell it to get out, but I was too scared to push the matter. And since I had sold the house and it was going to be demolished I did not worry about it any further. The sensation of the presence of evil abated as quickly as it started. It was a terrifying experience.

I’ve heard a number of similar stories over the years Nancy. Thank goodness I have never experienced it. I think if you’re reared around either mediums or people who dabble in the demonic area, you become more vulnerable to those type experiences.

I was talking to this teen once who had, with some friends, attempted to dabble in some satanic things ( they once killed/sacrificed a cat.) Anyhow he had began to experience some fears. I asked him what satan wanted, he said “He wants me to kill myself.” I thought that was probably correct.

@ Nancy

__

Nancy,

  I onced leased a property where it was later discovered that a spirit lived in a closet in one of the rooms. It was terrifying experience as well. Rebuking it “In The Name of Jesus”, (like the bible says) did the trick, but the forbodng feeling lingered for hours.

🙁

—

Doug wrote:

Josh wrote:
There are pastors on record who have said that they want to imprison or kill all LGBT people.
I would be interested in knowing who these “pastors” are.

Here’s just a sampling, if you do a search you’ll find video of most:

“Dads, the second you see your sons dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist. Man up, give him a good punch.” “Pastor” Sean Harris

“we used to have laws on these, statutory laws, that said that there’s a penalty to pay if you become a sodomite. They have long since removed those laws, because they say ‘we must have equality among everybody.’ What are we going to do next, turn all the murderers loose and give everybody equality?” “Pastor” Ron Baity

“Build a great big large fence 50 or 100 miles long, Put all the lesbians in there. Fly over and drop some food. Do the same thing with the queers and the homosexuals. Have that fence electrified so they can’t get out. You know what, in a few years, they’ll die out. You know why? They can’t reproduce.” –“ Pastor” Charles Worley

“They should be put to death — that’s what happened in Israel . . . That’s why homosexuality wouldn’t have grown in Israel. . . . Oh, so you’re saying we should go out and start killing them? No, I’m saying the government should. They won’t, but they should.” “Pastor” Curtis Knapp

“Kill them all. Right? I will be very honest with you. My flesh kind of likes that idea” “Pastor” Dennis Leatherman

If the devil is responsible for bad architecture then all those churches in hideous metal buildings have alot to answer for…

   __

“What Is The Color Of Your Religious Dreams?” (TM)

hmmm…

Kirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrk !

*´¨)
¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.•`    ♪ “Turn off your mind,*´¨)
relax and float downstream,
It is not dying, It is not dying.
Lay down all your thoughts, surrender to the proverbial ARC,
It is shining, oh it is shining…” ♪
[1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHKCSV1Ydl4

“The Unsuspecting 501(c)3 Religious Victim Never Know$?” (c)

(s@dface)

Sopy
__
[1] copyrighted material above, parody adapted: The Beatles – “Tomorrow Never Knows”; Fair Use, all rights reserved.

;~)

—

@ Nancy:

I’d most certainly wind up on their ‘undesirable’ roster and behind barbed wire soon thereafter.

Mark wrote:

Forgive for asking: but can all this focus on demons prevent people from recognizing that there are angels in our midst, or even awareness of the miracles that happen each day that could mean none other than a sign of God? If we are so afraid of demons, haven’t these demons become more significant than God? I don’t deny the existence of evil spirits, but I don’t elevate them to a position that they are almost an idol. If they have become the focus of your spiritual life, they are an idol.

Bingo!

Oops … bad choice of wordz as gamblin’ in of the devil …

But actually, that’s much of the issue in a nutshell; what some may worship as idols because of their less-than-God but more-than-human powers, others in effect worship as idols because they are overfocused on casting these demonic forces out while thinking they’re doing God’s will / helping Him out.

Sometimes there really can be “sin” in “sincere.”

@ dee:
I don’t recall anything that specific. It can be a little difficult to separate what was taught in the AofG churches I grew up in from what my mother believed and taught me.
This whole line of belief is so intertwined with my family history and the abuses thereof, it is hard to separate them. It is difficult to collect my thoughts and emotions on this into a few words for a comment. If you thought it would be useful, feel free to call or email me and ask questions.

Sopwith wrote:

  __
William G: “That snake bloody well hurt…”
Sopy: “The Trick William Gee, is not minding it hurtz…”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEEVNX7dSCU
(grin)
hahahahahaha
Sopy
–

Ha! That’s my favourite film. Jolly good about the squash court!

@ William G.:
Nope – Luther was against the Peasant Revolt, period. Which grieves a lot of us today, and no, they were bu no means just a bunch of violent anarchists. I am not sure why you think that.

These groups really upset me as I have seen people with severe mental health issue and many of them were really hurt by this nonsense. I know they are working the business and that is always and in every single way the most important thing but I just cant see it that way. I have never been able to live so utterly pragmatic and the ends (making money and gaining power and keeping it at all costs), justifies the means and always will. Like I said I cant seem to live that way, to my shame.

As noted earlier, can we at least get a picture of the correct Birmingham at the top of the article?

Downtown Birmingham, AL actually looks worse so it proves the point better.

numo wrote:

@ Gram3:
There are ore than a few charismatics who started throwing in their lot with Gary North back in the early 80s. I used to know a few, and they had influence in Washington.
I find that frightening.

Did you see the stuff put out by the Coalition on Revival back in the 80’s?

William G. wrote:

In response to Jefft I would observe in defense of Luther that he called for the killing of violent anarchists who were causing much looting and destruction.

The peasant revolt was nothing but a bunch of violent anarchists? You can write that with a straight face? Seriously?

Sopwith wrote:

Has any one at Wartburg Watch encountered evil spirits? If so, how did you respond?

I just remembered a story that the man who founded my former cult used to tell. He said he awoke one night and was levitating over the bed. He couldn’t speak or cry out. Standing over him was a very old woman. He felt the presence of evil in the room.

He told the story as though he were being singled out because of the great work that God was going to do through him. Later on, I googled “Old Hag Syndrome,” and what do you know? Seems it’s not an uncommon phenomenon. It’s known as “Sleep Paralysis.”
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

Nancy:

I do not know the extent of the fallout over the baptism or prayer language policies at the International Mission Board. Those were separate issues and not at all related to the Baptist Faith and Message revision adopted by the denomination in 2000. I wasn’t referencing that.

I was referencing the ban on so-called “prayer languages” and my belief that is based on very poor theology which is connected to some of the nonsense described in this post.

@ Anonymous:

I asked you about the baptism stance and the prayer language stance but did not ask you about the BFM 2000 foo faw exactly because I realize they are different issues. Others started replying to me about BFM 2000 and that is how that subject came up. Sorry that was not clear in my original comment.

I find it odd that no statistics seem to be available about these things, when some of us have interacted with former missionaries and/or the families of former missionaries who were impacted by it. The limit of my understanding is what is contained in a copy of some communication between the then president of the board and some board members, what Wade has made public of his situation, and what I/we heard at the local level. What I heard at the local level was BFM 2000 almost exclusively, so I am trying to put the pieces together, so I thought you might have some information about the impact of the baptism and prayer language issues.

But I understand that you may well not have that information either. Thanks for your reply.

@ dee:

That is my understanding of it also. I admire the ones who admitted the practice at personal cost to themselves. At the same time, and people being what they are, I wonder what the probability is that every one of the continuationist prayer language people stepped up.

It seems odd to me that “the board” tolerates miracle stories ( which cannot be private) including from muslim countries, but disallows prayer language (which is by definition private). When I was in Africa I heard the missionaries talk about demonic events, and I watched try-outs for some animist priestess “job” which the missionaries who were there attributed to demons. So, what are we saying here? If one practices a private prayer language they may become wild eyed pentecostals but if one labels things demonic there is no chance that they are “soft” on pentecostalism?

Nah. I suspect a combination of politics and poor thinking.

All this talk of “DEMONS! DEMONS! DEMONS!” reminded me of an encounter during my college years, when I was hanging around Campus Crusade. Situation was CCC event with Testimony of Missionary to some Third World rural area which included Witch Doctors. Mention of Witch Doctors being able to Levitate physical objects.

As an SF litfan with minor in nuts-and-bolts Ufology, I was intrigued by the levitation report and asked “How are they doing this?”

Answer: “It’s DEMONS! DEMONS are doing it!”

I asked again, “No, I want to know HOW they’re doing it. What physics are they tweaking to make something levitate? Some sort of “acceleration field” countering gravitational pull? Some sort of reverse-curvature of space, again to counter the gravity well?” That sort of thing, about the mechanics of it. Because if it’s some sort of physics hack, maybe we could research and build a machine to do the same and Presto! Antigravity!

Their answers just kept repeating, over and over and over: “It’s all done by DEMONS! DEMONS! DEEEEEMONS!”

And it just went round and round like that. I kept asking “HOW?” but they could only answer “WHO!” HOW was it being done vs WHO was doing it.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Well hey, I can see why people who had never seen a camera or any kind of sound recording machine (or much other high tech of earlier eras) were opposed to it, or frightened of it. It *is* like magic. I mean, what do you think the average person from the 15th century would do if someone dropped in on him/her with a laptop, cell phone and YouTube vids?

Just delurking to say thanks for all your research. I happened on the site when I followed a link after googling about the quiverfull movement, I came back again to read further when I saw that Ed Young’s church was planting a church here in London and wanted to find out more about him. You ‘Deebs’ are a valuable resource!

PS my first post was going to be about the Birmingham photo, but I was beaten to it. Add me to the lengthening list of your readers born in Birmingham England. 🙂

@ Bridget:
I think “sorcery” is the operative word. Space aliens didn’t become a “thing” in popular culture until much, much later.

@ Bridget:
And it was thought that lunar and solar eclipses were signs and portents, not normal events that happen in the course of things orbiting other things. For that matter, did anyone in the West realize that “orbiting” was something that could be applied to some of the things they saw in the sky? Iirc, the planets were still viewd as “wandering stars” (as opposed to actual stars) at the time.

Hmm… i love thinking about things like this, though i must admit that conceiving of a world with no electric lights boggles my mind. And yet, most of human history was lived by either daylight or fire/candle/lantern light

numo wrote:

I mean, what do you think the average person from the 15th century would do if someone dropped in on him/her with a laptop, cell phone and YouTube vids?

Though I’ve never done it with that extreme a difference in Tech Levels, I often have a mental shtick of explaining something from 2014 to someone from around the WW2 or early Cold War period. Not just technology; a lot of the world situation and general cultural shticks would also qualify. Some examples:
* Explaining “pixels” as a unit-of-measure of the “graininess” of a photograph.
* Mentioning the Second Russian Revolution and “St Petersburg” instead of “Leningrad”. (Are you listening, Ensign Chekov?)
* Describing my cellphone (an older “Phaser I/candy-bar” type) as “a 21st Century mobile phone”.
* This all began with a dream where I ran into my late father as he was in the late 1950s and tried to warn him about his youngest son (my NPD manipulator brother) and the results in my Uptime. I tried to establish my credentials with my 21st Century driver’s license (with hologram), digital watch, and $20 bills (which have a very different design from 1950s money). After the dream, I started thinking — how could I explain all this to someone from the Forties or Fifties?

numo wrote:

Hmm… i love thinking about things like this, though i must admit that conceiving of a world with no electric lights boggles my mind. And yet, most of human history was lived by either daylight or fire/candle/lantern light

Try working the technological background of the My Little Pony land of Equestria for fanfics sometime. Since according to Word of Faust the ponies do not have electricity, think of the workarounds you need to run a continent-wide railroad system even with natural magical assist — like teams of Pegasus couriers and “trackflyers” instead of telegraphs. Cable cars in Manehattan instead of trolleys and subways. I seem to pull it off; online reviewer Jordan179 says the stuff I edit UNDERSTANDS an Early Industrial Age instead of 2014 Information Age you get in so much fanfic. But then, I’m old enough to remember dial telephones and I’ve always had a soft spot for speculative retro-tech.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Clarke’s Third Law:
“Any sufficiently-advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

In The Lord of the Rings one of the elves tells the Hobbits that mortal folk call magic is really just the elves having learned the properties of nature and how to use the resources available to them.

Tim wrote:

In The Lord of the Rings one of the elves tells the Hobbits that mortal folk call magic is really just the elves having learned the properties of nature and how to use the resources available to them.

“Scientas” (Latin for “Knowledge”), the root of the word “Science”.

Muff Potter wrote:

@ Nancy:
I’d most certainly wind up on their ‘undesirable’ roster and behind barbed wire soon thereafter.

Then the Zyklon B showers — wait a minute, Zyklon B isn’t in SCRIPTURE(TM)…

Mass beheading with a butcher knife is too Islamic (see ISIS/ISIL)…

Mass stonings like in Talibanistan? SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE!

numo wrote:

@ Bridget:
I think “sorcery” is the operative word. Space aliens didn’t become a “thing” in popular culture until much, much later.

. . . demons, witches, sorcery, etc.

My guess as to where the nexus of demonic activity in America is would be Wall Street:

“Speculation is the Mother of all Evil…”
~ Gordon Gekko ~

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
One step too far in my opinion.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
And I’ve been in the camps. I’ve seen the horror and the Zyklon B canisters and I’ve comforted survivors.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Though I’ve never done it with that extreme a difference in Tech Levels, I often have a mental shtick of explaining something from 2014 to someone from around the WW2 or early Cold War period.

HUG, perhaps your comments apply best to the 1930’s. Gram3, Nancy any comments? WWII was a technological war. At its end we had radar, computers, jet aircraft, nuclear bombs and ballistic missiles. The transistor was invented in 1947 during the technological explosion that occurred following the return to civilian life of the science and engineering talent from their military assignments. The stage was set for the computer/communications explosion we have lived through. I was a high school nerd 1956-1959 and have been a minor player in the revolution.

Assessing the spiritual impact of the computer revolution is difficult but my personal experience suggests it is not positive. Orwell’s 1984 seems far too possible for my tastes.

When I read #8, this passage sprung to mind:
James 4
13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— 14 yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. 17 So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
Enough said.

@ Nancy:

With my history of poor communication skills I must say for anybody who might read that wrong that I have no desire to do that to anybody. I am not suggesting that anybody do that to anybody. I am not condoning or advocating such behavior toward anybody.

@ Ken:

No, I actually did struggle mightily in the lit part of freshman english in college. They kept asking me what the author meant, by which they meant ferret out some meaning that was not evident from words that seemed perfectly obvious but were not. Finally I had had enough and one day got pushed to the wall. So I shot back that did the author ever explain himself elsewhere? No, they said. So did anybody else ever figure out some hidden meaning, like in some doc dissertation? No, they said. At which point I should have just hushed, but I didn’t and I said so why are we wasting time on his writings if he does not explain himself so that anybody can understand him. This was back when one simply did not say much to the professor but no sir or yes ma’am. It hit the fan. I did not flunk the course by sheer mercy. I hate lit. I figure people can speak plainly or go away. I did take a required semester in scientific writing later and made an A, but in that one does not have to guess at meanings. I have no skill at guessing at meanings or at anticipating what other people will think that I meant. So from time to time it gets rather weird.

@ Nancy:
Actually, you asked some very good questions! I wish you had had better teachers, frankly. And I’m a big lit person (as a reader, anyway – have never been able to abide lit crit, and i could never have stood for it if I’d been an English major).

Some authors play with allusions, yes, but all too often, i think people read things into texts that aren’t necessarily there. Sound familiar? 😉

@ Nancy:

I got into it with a Philosophy Prof. once in the distant past and barely squeaked by with a ‘C’.

oldJohnJ wrote:

Assessing the spiritual impact of the computer revolution is difficult but my personal experience suggests it is not positive. Orwell’s 1984 seems far too possible for my tastes.

If it came down to a multiple choice answer for ‘what is’ at present, I think that Huxley’s Brave New World better fits the bill. God forbid they figure out how to incorporate the brutality of Orwell’s dystopia into a future amalgam of both. David Mitchell did just that in his work Cloud Atlas.

William G. wrote:

if this church is causing Christians to be afraid of black magic, they are actually making them vulnerable to it,

Exactly!!

Gram3 wrote:

Going to have to try putting a demonic hedge of protection around my hostas and hydrangeas next spring to keep the devil deer away.

Note to self: Follow Gram3’s lead. Dang deer, anyway.

Kristin wrote:

I will add, whoever wrote the bit about unattractive architecture has obviously never been in a mosque! Haha

It really depends on the mosque. The mosques of Istanbul are glorious, as are the mosques of Isfahan. All of the work of Sinan and anything with an onion dome exhilarates me. These were developed in parallel with Byzantine and Russian architecture and Christians, Jews and Muslims even built some mosques and churches side by side, such as the Blue Mosque, the original Hurva Synagogue in Jerusalem, and St. Ephraims Seminary in Damascus.

However a lot of newly built mosques favoredby the ISIS types are extremely plain and antiseptic. For that matter, the pure was a very good article on the blog Ad Orientem lately about the Wreckovation of Mecca. In fact ISIs has been destroying mosques deemed idolatrous; the Grand Mosque in Damascus which contains the purported tomb of John the Baptist will probably be destroyed should that city fall.

I disagree emphatically with ARC calling the Middle East a zone bereft of beautiful architecture or landscapes; the Nineveh Plains, the historic homeland of Assyrian Christians, Kurds and Yazidis in Iraq, is full of gorgeous landscapes and beautiful buildings, such as the Yazidi temple at Lalish. I hope ARC doesn’t buy the Islamic extremist view that the Yazidis are devil worshippers.

@ William G.:
Onion domes were developed in part to keep snow from piling up on the roofs of Orthodox churches in snowy countries like Rusdia. Offhand, i cannot think of a single major mosque that has an onion dome. Even a place like Hagia Sophia in Istanbul (sort of the be-all and end-all of Byzantine church architecture) has *hemisphetical* domes rather than onion domes.

Sorry, architectural history was one of my favorites subjevts in grad school, and i tend to geek out over cool buildings.

@ dee:
dee wrote:

EBC

Unfortunately, I know Furtick is planting a franchise here. In fact, some friends of ours attended. They loved how it “made them feel.” They ended up moving to Greensboro, though, because of work. To my knowledge, G’boro does not have an Elevation franchise, most likely because it is not as wealthy as Raleigh and Charlotte.

  __

Hey William , 

hmmm…

Da ARC is probably hoping we don’t buy into the  view that they are proverbial 501(c)3 ‘religious extremists chasing demons.’ (RECD’s)

Might be bad for busine$$…

🙂

—

@ Nancy:

Oh, and I just put two and two together. Singing with Sounds of Liberty at that time would have been one of my favorites, Guy Penrod when he was in college. What do you know.

EBCrow wrote:

I only know one family who attends his church…his sister-in-law and her husband. I’ve known them for years and only recently found out they were related to MF.

If through that contact you find out that what I have said is not correct, please help me correct the information since this is a public forum and I don’t want to be putting out false information.

@ Nancy:
I hope in turn you didn’t take my post as criticism. I was partly tongue-in- cheek, but mainly thought you were being a bit hard on yourself.

Haitch wrote:

Which is why I like the film, “Brazil”.

I like that one a lot. My wife likes it, mirele wrote:

I’d also note that Gateway Church has a business listing website, which I presume is for their members. Here is the listing of lawyers and insurance agents:

http://gateway.gdirect.com/search-results?BusinessDirectoryId=dbf2728a-5fce-4245-898f-9adfdec9b1d3&CurrentPageNumber=1&ItemsPerPage=10&IsExpandedSearch=false&CategoryId=0&SearchTerm=Legal+

Quote from the first page of their business listings pages:

Welcome to our Missional Marketing Platform.

You can’t make that up. If you wanted to write a spoof on them, they’d beat you to it.

Want to write a modern-day “Elmer Gantry”? – Robert Morris is already there. It’s almost like Grimm’s fairy tale of the hare and the hedgehog.

Marsha wrote:

We were Bereans…

Thanks for your reply. What you describe is the AOG as I remember it. The man that introduced me to the Lord often told me to check everything out against Scripture, even what he taught me. He was AOG and I was a “none” back then. He witnessed to me at work, and as soon as the other stealth Christians found out that an AOG guy was discipling me, they swooped down to correct his doctrine and pull me away from his clutches. I thank the Lord for Cliff. He was the one who told me about Jesus. The others didn’t. Sigh.

I often wonder how different my walk would have been had I not listened to the others. I eventually got sucked into the Calvinist black hole, where I languished for 25 years. It has only been three years since I got saved out of that (expletive deleted), and have been freed by His grace.

Thanks Marsha, I appreciate your answer. It seems like the AOG has morphed into something else now. Assembly of ________?

Haitch wrote:

I probably don’t want to continue this line of conversation too much further, but I’m trying to understand racists who have sex with those who they revile. To be blunt, in Australia part of our colonial history includes racist white men having sex with Aboriginal women. Not painting either group with a broad brush, and not saying all white men were like this, but I’m trying to understand, of those men who were disparaging towards Aboriginals, why then sex was still part of the equation (it has ramifications with the ‘stolen generation’ etc). Sex trumps racism or something?

I think it’s the dynamic I’ve observed among Furry Porn types:
Just human enough so it isn’t bestiality, but not human enough to really be rape.

Gram3 wrote:

You can never be too safe. And that, my friends, is why Whole Foods is so successful. It’s why both the opposite approaches of the EzzoPearls and Dr. Sears can both be regarded as Parenting Guarantees. They are actually the same product tailored for different market segments.

Just like Atlas Shrugged and Left Behind are actually the same basic story tailored for (and fanservicing) different audiences.

@ numo:
The double H probably is an attempt to convey the sound of a letter that we don’t have in English. The Arabic alphabet differs from ours on a number of points.