Jon Payne Adores C.J. Mahaney – Guest Post by Todd Wilhelm

“Remember that the favour and pleasing of man is one of your snares, that would prevail against your pleasing God: therefore watch against the danger of it, as you must do against other earthly things.”
-Richard Baxter, “The Practical Works of Richard Baxter,” page 185

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=80649&picture=na-prst-bodyNumber One

Dee and I are honored to feature the writings of our friend Todd Wilhelm from time to time.  It has been a while since we have focused on Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM), so here is the latest concerning Sovereign Grace Church Louisville, where C. J. Mahaney serves as senior pastor. 

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Jon Payne Worships Mahaney, No Mention of Victims of Abuse (link)

By:  Todd Wilhelm

“I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign Lord. I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.”
(Ezekiel 34:15-16)

“Remember that the favour and pleasing of man is one of your snares, that would prevail against your pleasing God: therefore watch against the danger of it, as you must do against other earthly things.”
-Richard Baxter, “The Practical Works of Richard Baxter,” page 185

2014-10-27 Payne at Mahaneys church webpage 2014-10-27 Jon Payne at Mahaneys church

“Here lies one who neither flattered nor feared any flesh.”
Testimony by James Douglas, 4th Earl of Morton at the grave of John Knox, as quoted in Trumpeter of God (1974) by W. Stanford Reid

You may be certain that this epitaph will never be written on the gravestone of a pastor from the Sovereign Grace denomination.

Dave Harvey, while on the Sovereign Grace payroll, authored a book called “Am I Called? Discerning the Summons to Ministry”. Supposedly it was written to help the young Mahaneyites determine whether they were called by God to enter the ministry.  (Ministry meaning becoming a pastor of a Sovereign Grace Church.)  The book is fairly well written, the advice given makes good sense; unfortunately Harvey omitted discussing the two primary requirements necessary to becoming a pastor at a Sovereign Grace Church. Those two requirements are 1) Possess an aptitude for unabashed flattery, and 2) Be the son of somebody already on the Sovereign Grace payroll.

Mahaneyites have to look no further than their Beloved Leader for an example of flattery perfected to an art form:

Go to Todd's post to hear the audio of Mahaney elevating Al Mohler (link)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can also check out this post to witness how the new graduates from the Pastors College have learned that flattery is the quickest way to the top in SGM.

As a former member of a Sovereign Grace church I cannot recall a single time when a guest preacher was introduced without the mandatory introduction rife with flattery. The more famous speakers of course drew lengthier introductions, and generally the introduction was followed with a standing ovation by the adoring masses. Of course this flattery was never called for what it was, but rather, in SGM-speak was labeled “pointing out evidences of grace” in the speakers life.

I would venture to say that if Mahaney is a guest speaker at one of his denominational churches the pastor had better kiss the Pope’s ring, give verbose praise of His Humbleness and ensure his pew-sitters rise and give the mandatory ovation.  If not he is likely to find himself de-gifted. (SGM-speak for looking for a new job.) The same goes for a pastor summoned to speak in front of the Pope (Mahaney) at the Vatican (Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville, or prior to that, Covenant Life Church.)

With that as background, let us proceed to analyze events at the Louisville Vatican this past Sunday, October 26, 2014. As you may know, Mahaney’s run-away church plant in Louisville has FIVE pastors to “serve” about 100 members.  I guess they must be terribly overworked because the Humble One frequently invites guest speakers to preach on Sunday mornings.  This serves the dual purpose of giving the 5 boys pictured below a breather from the rigors of full-time oversight of their mega-sized congregation and, as the guest speakers are usually celebrities, is an attempt to lend credence to Mahaney –  currently embroiled in an ongoing sexual abuse scandal in which he has been credibly charged with a conspiracy to cover-up said abuse.

SGM louisville pastors

This Sunday past Jon Payne joined my Hall of Shame, a group of celebrity preachers mentioned here, and here. Qualifications for this “honor” are simply accepting an invitation to speak at Mahaney’s church.  To do so implies that one endorses Mahaney’s lie of any knowledge of child abuse taking place under his leadership while also not believing the testimony of the abused victims.

2014-10-27 Jon Payne bio

Jon Payne is no celebrity, I would venture that not many outside of the Sovereign Grace Denomination have heard of him.  He is, however, a rising star within the denomination. He is currently the senior pastor of Redemption Hill Church in Austin, Texas and serves on the Executive Committee of Sovereign Grace.  Jon’s father, Pete Payne, is well connected in the denomination having attended the PDI School of Ministry in 1990-1991 and then joining the staff of Sovereign Grace Church.  In 1998, Pete relocated his
family to Denver, Colorado to help the apostle, Steve Shank, plant a church there.  Pete pastored at the church in Denver for seven years until 2005. He then relocated to Frisco, Texas to assist Craig Cabaniss in planting Grace Church.  Cabaniss  is currently the Director of Church Development in the denomination, effectively making him the second in command of the denomination.  Additionally, Jon’s brother, Tim, serves on the staff of the Frisco church and Jon’s other brother, Josh, is a member of Mahaney’s church.

As you can see, Jon Payne meets the requirements of having family members on the SGM payroll. (Read this enlightening article on nepotism in the church.)

Screenshot 2014-10-27 20.40.48

If you listen to the recording below you will see he also meets the requirement of being an unabashed flatterer.  The first 6 minutes of Payne’s sermon is nothing but worship of Mahaney and staff, or should I say “pointing out evidences of grace” in the Humble One and his humble staff. Payne tells of the many times he sat under the teaching of the Humble One and wept as the gospel was revealed by Mahaney.  One can’t help wonder if Payne has done any weeping for the numerous victims of sexual abuse that once attended Sovereign Grace churches?

Please go to Todd's blog to listen to the audio.

“For we never came with flattering speech, as you know, nor with a pretext for greed – God is witness – nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others,”
-I Thessalonians 2:5-6

“Let me not, I pray, show partiality to anyone; Nor let me flatter any man.”
Job 32:21

Comments

Jon Payne Adores C.J. Mahaney – Guest Post by Todd Wilhelm — 109 Comments

  1. Generally guest speakers, whether in a religious, academic or conference setting, DO tend to pour out kudos on their hosts.
    *
    I’ve never experienced a guest speaker pointing out the flaws of their hosts before they speak. That would be a new one in my experience.
    *
    HOWEVER, sometime the accolades do appear over the top.
    *
    Ed correction: deleted political references which we want to avoid especially during election periods.

  2. TGBtC has probably already figured this, but the problem is with the bit that says “Go to Todd’s post to hear the audio of Jon Payne elevating C.J. Mahaney”. For some reason this is contained in an element “#mep_1 .mejs-inner” which covers the comment box

  3. @ Dave:
    TGBtC hasn’t received my message yet. But, I have deleted the audio as you suggested and all is well. Thank you so much. I am indebted to you for helping us out!!!

  4. @dee Cool, thanks. Not sure what control you have over the stylesheet, but if you add the following lines (below) if should allow you to add the audio back in. Unfortunately you fixed things before I could make sure the fix doesn’t unfix anything else. There’s a deeper underlying issue which I suspect may be a missing stylesheet but I know nothing about wordpress or the audio plugin you’re using. Cheers on the site, btw, and keep up the good work 🙂

    .mejs-container {
    overflow: hidden;
    }

  5. I cannot bear to watch the video.

    I am a strong opponent of nepotism, but it thrives in evangelical circles of all stripes.

    Aside from the fact that the wardrobe is all wrong, the picture above looks like it was taken in a prison yard.

  6. No surprise an out on who is first to comment on this article 😉

    I might have a flashback of enormous proportions if I listen to the audio. I need some prep time to take that on.

  7. senecagriggs yahoo wrote:

    Generally guest speakers, whether in a religious, academic or conference setting, DO tend to pour out kudos on their hosts.
    *
    I’ve never experienced a guest speaker pointing out the flaws of their hosts before they speak. That would be a new one in my experience.
    *
    HOWEVER, sometime the accolades do appear over the top.
    *
    Ed correction: deleted political references which we want to avoid especially during election periods.

    Interesting…in my sleepy (in a good way!) little PCA church of 100 members, I’ve never heard anything of this sort from guest preachers.

  8. Hmmm? Could there actually be a benefit with all this self-serving flattery? 😉
    Most of this comment was also left on Todd’s post.
    ——-

    “The first 6 minutes of Payne’s sermon
    is nothing but worship of Mahaney and staff…”

    Hmmm? Jon says at the 1:00 minute mark…
    “Your pastors are my hero’s…”
    “I have been following Cee Jay for about 25 years…”

    But – I’m-a-thinkin – Maybe ALL this flattery is really of God???
    Helping these wanna-be Great Ones, to exact judgement on themselves????
    After all, God does warn WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, about flattery. 😉
    ———-

    Pr 26:28
    A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it;
    and a flattering mouth worketh ruin.

    Pro 29:5
    A man that flattereth his neighbour spreadeth a net for his feet.

    Ouch, this flattery is dangerous stuff.
    Flattery works Ruin – And Flattery is a Trap…
    And the one who flatters his Hero – Sets the Trap for his Hero…
    Is that irony? Or ironic? 😉
    ———–

    Psalm 78:36
    Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth,
    and they lied unto him with their tongues.

    Seems the flatterers are lying to, and deceiving, the one they flatter… 😉

    Pro 20:17
    Bread of deceit is sweet to a man;
    but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel.

    Seems lot’s of these flateree’s are eatin lots of gravel these days. 😉
    ———-

    I guess what I’m-a-thinkin is – Let the flatterers, flatter away…
    Their flattery is-a-bringen these special Ones to Ruin.
    As they set the Trap for their Hero’s. As they lie unto them with their tongues.

    In my experience…
    When these Great Ones believe the lie – They start to die…
    ————

    Pro 28:23
    He that rebuketh a man
    afterwards shall find more favour
    than he that flattereth with the tongue.

  9. One more thing about the SGM world, cronie(ism) is just as prevelant as nepotism. Hirelings are mainly family or friends. Funny how all the annointing seems to rub off on ones nearest and/or dearest.

  10. Seems Jesus taught His Disciples about receiving honour from Man.

    I (Jesus) receive NOT honour from men.
    But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
    How can ye believe, WHICH RECEIVE HONOUR ONE OF ANOTHER,
    and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
    John 5:41-44 KJV

  11. “As you may know, Mahaney’s run-away church plant in Louisville has FIVE pastors to “serve” about 100 members.”

    No, I didn’t know, and I’m shocked. Who’s paying for this? A church that size can’t support five full-time pastors.

  12. Hi Dave A A

    When I click on your link just a picture shows up.

    m I missing sump tin? 😉

  13. As a third generation pastor I find nepotism extremely bothersome. We always joke that we chose the wrong “family business” since no one is getting rich. Both of my grandparents received seminary degrees(that’s where they met) my father and all of my uncles are ministers and I have been in vocational ministry for over a decade. Not one person in our family received, nor, sought after a position related to a parents or siblings position. We have never talked about it, but there is a general sense in our family(Hungarian immigrants post WW2) that you work hard for what you have yourself and don’t lazily accept someone else doing it for you.

    My father is the pastor of a fairly large church and people have asked me if I think I would ever come work there as he is nearing retirement. Maybe I am weird, but it makes me uncomfortable to assume I should just “inherit” my father’s ministry. If you are gifted and called to vocational ministry then you shouldn’t need to call in favors to have a job. If the only way you can support a family in ministry is taking advantage of your family’s name, you probably should be doing something else.

  14. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    “As you may know, Mahaney’s run-away church plant in Louisville has FIVE pastors to “serve” about 100 members.”
    No, I didn’t know, and I’m shocked. Who’s paying for this? A church that size can’t support five full-time pastors.

    I have the same question, where’s all the money come from to support 5 pastors?

  15. @ Elizabeth Lee:

    Ask Al Mohler. I have my suspicions. The manner in which he fled to Dever and then moved to Louisville with his entourage to be near the seminary and plant a church has always boggled my mind. There is a church on every corner here. With the help of TWW, we were able to get him out of a private Christian school he was using as his church base. You see they have a zero-tolerance policy on ignoring child predators which made housing SG Louisville a bit of an embarrassment.

    Mohler was quoted in the local paper as saying the bloggers just did not like CJ strong leadership. Mohler has been CJ Mahaney's big contact here in Louisville. Quite a few of Mahaney's Louisville entourage have ties to SBTS with jobs, internships and partnerships such as with Bob Kauflin.

  16. @ A. Amos Love:
    I was hoping someone would ask 🙂
    It’s Knox’s grave!! Space 23 in a parking lot! That’s how folks “honor” someone who neither flatters nor fears any flesh! Could just as well be the “grave” of Mars Hill Church– under the wheels of Driscoll’s bus!
    You can be sure they won’t pave over CJ ‘s grave, when he passes on!

  17. IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT !!! I am here humbly in front of you commenters to say I am indeed in awe of the Godly Women of Wartburg Watch. Though they may walk with vaginas, they still walk very closely (two steps behind) with God. Dee and Deb (who have kindly allowed me, a mere child in the faith, to use their first names-Praise God) are allowing us into the holy and inner sanctum of their personally created blog. A blog built on the blood, sweat and tears of the very foundations of the Proverbs 31 woman. Many are called by God, but few respond with the obedience these women have shown. Though some have called them unworthy, because they do not possess “the rocks” God’s most beloved are born with, they have bravely withstood “the haters” who do not understand their call.
    Although they are too modest to complain about their hardships in ministry, I must testify to the “worldly, hate filled attitudes” that the evil Internet has wounded these saints with, using satanic arrows of verbal fire. We must not listen to those who would turn their backs on God’s chosen women. Today’s zodiac –er– Bible reading warns us against doubting those who speak for The Lord. Dee and Deb, whose first names I humbly use (I would much prefer to call them by their true names, The Great and Powerful, God’s hand picked daughters, who perfectly model their lives on that of our Savior, St. Mary I and St. Mary II) are perfect models of Christian God fearing women. Heed their prophecies and touch not one hair on these anointed women’s head. Listen to their voices as a newborn would delight in their mother’s voice, while suckling on her breast—–
    You get the picture! 🙂 I am campaigning to be their speech writer and be the one who introduces them on their upcoming tour ” Women of God Need Money Too”. I will also wash wash their clothes while on tour.

    You guys rock and we appreciate all you do. I will fine tune my speech writing so that CJ would be proud!

  18. Wow – who wuooda thunk it…

    John Knox’s grave sight
    By St. James Evangelical Church

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.526733834035819.1073741825.133487956693744&type=3

    Updated over a year ago · Taken at Edinburgh Scotland/UK

    “For years the grave of the great Scottish Reformer John Knox was nothing more than parking space number 23 at St. Giles Cathedral. Finally they have added a marker, he’s still buried in a parking space though. By contrast Charles Darwin is buried in Westminster Abby. Somebody has their priorities mixed up.”

  19. Ann wrote:

    You get the picture

    You had me there for a moment! What on earth …. 🙂

    You are the master – or perhaps I should say mistress if that’s still allowed – of understatement and the gentlest of implied hints. Subtle and modest with it in an engaging sort of way. Someone to be admired and looked up to – we have a fair amount in common.

    Do you think you could do a similar blurb for the equivalent upcoming ministry for men tour – “Men of Money Need God Too”?

  20. Adam Borsay wrote:

    As a third generation pastor I find nepotism extremely bothersome. We always joke that we chose the wrong “family business” since no one is getting rich. Both of my grandparents received seminary degrees(that’s where they met) my father and all of my uncles are ministers and I have been in vocational ministry for over a decade. Not one person in our family received, nor, sought after a position related to a parents or siblings position. We have never talked about it, but there is a general sense in our family(Hungarian immigrants post WW2) that you work hard for what you have yourself and don’t lazily accept someone else doing it for you.
    My father is the pastor of a fairly large church and people have asked me if I think I would ever come work there as he is nearing retirement. Maybe I am weird, but it makes me uncomfortable to assume I should just “inherit” my father’s ministry. If you are gifted and called to vocational ministry then you shouldn’t need to call in favors to have a job. If the only way you can support a family in ministry is taking advantage of your family’s name, you probably should be doing something else.

    It is happening more and more in the SBC, especially in modern dad to son pastors.
    The trouble is this, after so many generations in the ministry, does this type of average pastor really understand the folks sitting in the pews? Do they know what it is like to work 50-60 hours a week as a pipe fitter? ( local job) Do they really know what it’s like to make the commute to an office job they hate downtown? Every day??
    The best advice I ever got before I worked on a church staff was from a little lady who worked at a 7-11 type store….you got to experience life to be able to preach on it….she was absolutely right….

  21. Todd,

    About 5 years ago I took my 90 year old dad to the SBC annual convention as a messenger. He had done that sort of thing for 50 years but this was to be his last one. I had been absent from the mega world for a few years by then so was a bit taken back with the adoration of man that came out of every single speakers mouth. It sounds so ridiculous once you have been away from it for years. Of course, you only speak at these events if you are some sort of mover and shaker— the mutual admiration society was so OTT I could not believe those around me were not put off.

    The conventions have changed over the last 20 years as they used to be packed with non ministry paid messengers who were very much a part of running
    SBC churches and that sort of fawning was not popular. Now the conventions are tiny in comparison to the numbers of yesteryear and mostly made up of employees of some SBC entity, pastors, etc. In other words, the leaders.

    I was totally taken aback. I had not been to one since I was a teen singing in one of the many choirs who performed even though I knew my parents were saddened by the turn the SBC was taking as far back as the early 90’s.

    I don’t think they can hear themselves with the adoration of each other. It comes off as insincere and manufactured. I used to think this very thing listening and watching Mahaney fawn over MOhler in every single T$G promo or session. I would wonder how Mohler could stand it. Wasn’t he embarassed? Obviously not. Perhaps it really is that bad. it is right out of Jr. High: Say nice things about me to them!

    We must become very careful about what we allow to become our normal. I know the price one must pay quite well.

  22. It’s only in the Lord’s kingdom that cronyism and nepotism are bugs. In the worldly kingdoms of men they are lucrative features.

  23. K.D. wrote:

    The trouble is this, after so many generations in the ministry, does this type of average pastor really understand the folks sitting in the pews? Do they know what it is like to work 50-60 hours a week as a pipe fitter? ( local job) Do they really know what it’s like to make the commute to an office job they hate downtown? Every day??
    The best advice I ever got before I worked on a church staff was from a little lady who worked at a 7-11 type store….you got to experience life to be able to preach on it….she was absolutely right….

    This is what I tell folks I know who still attend the culture war type seeker churches. I often remind them they hvae more experience working around the culture he preaches against than he will ever have. He does not have to yet is paid better.

    In other words, I would pay money to watch an Al Mohler, Piper, Mahaney, etc report to a lesbian boss every single day of the week while having a mortgage payment and kids to feed then see how “Christian” they really are.

    These guys do not live in the real world. In effect, because they are not really even scholars but indoctrinators, they have very little to teach us and nothing to model for us.

  24. “For we never came with flattering speech, as you know, nor with a pretext for greed – God is witness – nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others,”
    -I Thessalonians 2:5-6

    “With a ruler, you can lay the flattery on with a trowel.”
    — Benjamin Disraeli

  25. Lydia wrote:

    Of course, you only speak at these events if you are some sort of mover and shaker— the mutual admiration society was so OTT I could not believe those around me were not put off.

    Mutual admiration or mutual masturbation?
    Not that much distance between the two.

  26. K.D. wrote:

    It is happening more and more in the SBC, especially in modern dad to son pastors.

    “How to become a Fundagelical Pastor:
    1. Be born the son of the Pastor. 100% certain if your name differs from Pastor Dad’s by the addition of “Junior”.
    2. If the Pastor has no sons, marry one of his daughters. (i.e. the Polishing-the-Shaft Schaapf method.)”
    — some snark blog I read once

    In my catechism, I learned that one of the practical reasons my church (RCC) enforced priestly celibacy was to prevent this. In a time and place where political power and entire nations were inherited father-to-son like any other personal property, they wanted to avoid the same with spiritual power and Authority.

  27. Ann wrote:

    You get the picture! I am campaigning to be their speech writer and be the one who introduces them on their upcoming tour ” Women of God Need Money Too”. I will also wash wash their clothes while on tour.
    You guys rock and we appreciate all you do. I will fine tune my speech writing so that CJ would be proud!

    Tip: Study the official pronouncements coming out of North Korea about Comrade Beloved Leader (and before him, Comrade Dear Leader).

  28. I would venture to say that if Mahaney is a guest speaker at one of his denominational churches the pastor had better kiss the Pope’s ring, give verbose praise of His Humbleness and ensure his pew-sitters rise and give the mandatory ovation.

    Could you imagine Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, or (especially) Pope Francis demanding that sort of obeisance these days? I sure can’t, and those are official Popes and successors of Peter as Bishop of Rome.

  29. Jon Payne Adores C.J. Mahaney

    “O Come Let Us Adore Him,
    O Come Let Us Adore Him,
    O COME LET US ADOOORE HIIIIM…”

  30. senecagriggs yahoo wrote:

    Generally guest speakers, whether in a religious, academic or conference setting, DO tend to pour out kudos on their hosts.

    Seneca,
    I agree with your comment but it should not be that way among preachers. And when it comes to Mahaney and his minions excessive flattery is, unfortunately, the norm. Jerry Bridges, a man I respect, spoke at Mahaney’s church on March 10, 2013. The fact that he spoke there lowered my opinion of him, but his opening remarks set a good example which others should emulate. There was no flattery of men.
    Just a few short sentences, then he moved on to teaching from the Word. Below is what he said:

    “It is a delight to be here, I have been around Sovereign Grace churches for a number of years, taught in the Pastor’s College, and I have to say to you that teaching in the Pastor’s College is one of the absolute highlights of my year. And so I’m grateful to be here once again.”

  31. Ken, I have looked up my zodiac in today’s paper–er– I mean I prayed about it (after talking to my PR rep). We would make a great team. I can tell you have a golden tongue–er– a spirit of humility, which is beautiful in God’s eyes. For a $2,000 love gift which will go into a fund for planting churches for the widows and orphans in Ethiopia ( make it out to Ann Doe), I would love to have such an insightful and admiring man on my team. Our leaders Dee and Deb will have final approval, and a small fee for you to join.
    We do need a strong, handsome successful manly man ( as I can tell you are by your manly words), to provide authority over us. I am eagerly awaiting the $3,000 so we can get started. In His love, Ann. P.S. It might not show, but as a woman I am not very good with numbers.

  32. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Could you imagine Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, or (especially) Pope Francis demanding that sort of obeisance these days? I sure can’t, and those are official Popes and successors of Peter as Bishop of Rome.

    No.

  33. See, here’s the thing. If anyone ever got up and started talking about me that way – in any context – I would immediately stand up and tell him to shut up. I won’t stand for it. The fact that this kind of drivel is accepted says a lot about the people being flattered.

  34. Lydia wrote:

    We must become very careful about what we allow to become our normal. I know the price one must pay quite well.

    Well said.

  35. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    See, here’s the thing. If anyone ever got up and started talking about me that way – in any context – I would immediately stand up and tell him to shut up. I won’t stand for it. The fact that this kind of drivel is accepted says a lot about the people being flattered.

    Yes, it certainly does. Introductions should not be eulogies. It looks like there is a drought of beneficial self-awareness among these me, and there is no evidence of appropriate shame where there should be an ample measure of it.

  36. Srs, I would be honored, um– the licensing fee would be steep and you would have to play fundy music!

  37. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I would venture to say that if Mahaney is a guest speaker at one of his denominational churches the pastor had better kiss the Pope’s ring, give verbose praise of His Humbleness and ensure his pew-sitters rise and give the mandatory ovation.
    Could you imagine Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, or (especially) Pope Francis demanding that sort of obeisance these days? I sure can’t, and those are official Popes and successors of Peter as Bishop of Rome.

    I’m pretty sure all cardinals/bishops and priest bow down and kiss the Pope’s ring don’t they?

  38. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    See, here’s the thing. If anyone ever got up and started talking about me that way – in any context – I would immediately stand up and tell him to shut up. I won’t stand for it. The fact that this kind of drivel is accepted says a lot about the people being flattered.

    On the other hand fundy, I’m pretty sure I’d quip at the end of the praise for me, “You’re not done already are you?”

  39. Deb wrote:

    Ken wrote:
    Hmmmmn – I hear your Payne …
    Agreed, but I have to admit – I enjoyed watching Major Payne.

    The other John Payne was dreamy…and a better actor than Jon.

  40. Nancy wrote:

    It says something good about Loo-uh-vull that there are so few who have taken up with this.

    Actually the market is saturated and oversupplied with equivalent nonsense peddlers, so CJ was late to the game.

  41. @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

    The amount of effort it takes to maintain and build on the image you have carefully crafted and is promoted by your colleagues is where it becomes a big problem. One needs more and more insulation to protect the image and more and more accolades to keep up. I saw this all the time in mega church environments. Offices got farther and farther away– even from staff. Every person allowed on stage to speak praised the leaders. And, worse, there was this thing called “facetime” when it came to staff or even congregants.

    Yep this sort of thing is in business circles, too, as I well know coming from an organizational development and training background. But folks, when you add in the Jesus layer, it is something else altogether that is insidious and soul crushing to everyone involved.

  42. @ Gram3:

    I am still aghast the “brilliant” Mohler had an agreement with the UNACCREDITED SGM pastors college for transfer graduate credits. What is he smoking?

  43. In other news, you will all have noticed, from Google’s doodle of the day, that today is the 100th anniversary of the birth of Dr Jonas Salk. (Dr Salk died in 1995.)

    Salk’s claim to fame, and it is a real one, is that it was he who first developed an effective vaccine against polio. At the time, polio – now all but eradicated – was the cause of untold misery and suffering. One of the reasons Salk was able to develop such an effective vaccine so quickly was that he gave no thought to personal profit at any stage. When asked about his plans to patent the vaccine, he famously said:

    There is no patent. Could you patent the sun?

    The patent, had he filed one, was calculated to be worth 7 gigadollars in today’s money. That’s a lot of impoverished children who would have died, or been disabled for life, for want of a vaccine they couldn’t afford.

    May Salk’s tribe increase.

  44. @ Ann:

    Yes the Deebs (both Dee & Deb) have more balls than most men in the YRR movement. They also have more spine. Where was CJ Mahaney, Mark Driscoll, John Piper, and so many others when testicles were being distributed? 😉

  45. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    It is happening more and more in the SBC, especially in modern dad to son pastors.
    “How to become a Fundagelical Pastor:
    1. Be born the son of the Pastor. 100% certain if your name differs from Pastor Dad’s by the addition of “Junior”.
    2. If the Pastor has no sons, marry one of his daughters. (i.e. the Polishing-the-Shaft Schaapf method.)”
    – some snark blog I read once

    One of my former student’s dad is the Executive Director of a local association( SBC)….he left for this better paying job, less stress job after being pastor of a local FBC.
    His son attended SBTS and for some reason came back home after 2 years and got a job teaching school. He was terrible in the classroom. His students hated him. It wasn’t his work, so at the urging of his father, , the son has returned to Louisville to complete his MDiv at SBTS. It seems dad has promised him a church staff/ preaching position when he returns to the area….
    This kid has no more business being on church staff nor in the pulpit. He’s a disaster waiting to happen, yet, because of his father he’ll get the opportunity to ruin a church or at least hurt some innocent church members…

  46. I would be happy to introduce MyHiney to speak at a church, particularly on the subject of how a “minister of the gospel” manages to cover up child abuse and be praised for his ministry.

  47. Lydia wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    I am still aghast the “brilliant” Mohler had an agreement with the UNACCREDITED SGM pastors college for transfer graduate credits. What is he smoking?

    I want to know what interests the trustees are protecting because it certainly was not the academic integrity of SBTS or the value of the degrees paid for and earned by bona fide graduates. I think Mohler delights in power plays, and the infatuated fanboys always shriek if you dare to question him, even regarding something as egregious as that was.

  48. Gram3 wrote:

    I want to know what interests the trustees are protecting because it certainly was not the academic integrity of SBTS or the value of the degrees paid for and earned by bona fide graduates.

    I am thinking there surely must be some story here that we do not know.

  49. I grew increasingly concerned about the growing lack of integrity, intelligence, and the increase of father/son duos within SGM souring my last few years there. This seemed to be confirmed when my brother was at the SGM OPC and I had the chance to interact with some of his classmates. I was astonished that guys with such obvious arrogance were being sent to the OPC because they were deemed to have exceptional character. What I learned was that SGM actually intentionally changed the way they viewed qualifications because CJJ believe character could be fixed and guys either had talent or didn’t. This also explains why SGM pastors quit pestering and caring for people and diminished the role of pastor to preaching. Mark Prater stood at my old SGM church and proclaimed one Sunday morning that “preaching would always be central on Sunday mornings in SGM churches.” Nobody seemed to flinch. I was aghast. The glory of God is what should be central on Sunday mornings. It was just another example of how preaching was elevated to an idolatrous level.

  50. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    He was a true hero and role model. Thanks for the reminder, because younger folks have no memory of so many horrible infectious diseases that have been eliminated by vaccines.

  51. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    That’s a lot of impoverished children who would have died, or been disabled for life, for want of a vaccine they couldn’t afford.

    May Salk’s tribe increase.

    Amen and Amen Nick. And it does beg the question: What is a righteous man?

  52. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    “The patent, had he filed one, was calculated to be worth 7 gigadollars in today’s money. That’s a lot of impoverished children who would have died, or been disabled for life, for want of a vaccine they couldn’t afford.

    May Salk’s tribe increase.”

    Yes, may they increase.
    Am old enough to have known people who came down with polio. Went to school with with several children who were afflicted. Have a friend who still suffers from the damage it did to his limbs. It’s an awful disease.
    Bless Dr. Salk….. and parents immunize your children against polio!

  53. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    The first year I worked as a nurse’s aide the hospital where I was turned over one floor of one wing to polio patients in the old Drinker respirators. Scary stuff. I was too young to be allowed to work there.

    On a similar topic, the old city hospital that was then also the medical school hospital had a whole smaller building for infectious diseases, and still had “porches” for TB patients. May I say that dealing with contagion was a part of life at the time, as compared with what we are seeing today. We may be coming up on a time when we have to re-order our thinking in this area somewhat.

  54. As Dee and Deb know my opinions are seldom humble, but here goes.

    A. Amos Love hits the nail on the head again.

    Remember the ancient Israelites, how God was their leader? Only they wanted a king like everyone else around them? And the centuries of grief that brought?

    Now we have King Jesus as our great high priest. And what do we do? We insist we get an earthly leader called the pastor (as in office, not something we do for each other.) And like the ancient Israelites we have endured centuries of grief.

    Instead of trying to fix the office, or get the bad guys out of it, why don’t we get busy eliminating it and actually doing what the Bible says ALL Christians are to do?

  55. An old friend of mine often talks about the “formula” for preaching at CLC. If C.J. was preaching, he would banter on for about 10 minutes about how great the church was and how he would never want to pastor anywhere else. (How quickly that passed!) If there was a guest speaker, he would speak very effusively about how wonderful C.J. was for at LEAST ten minutes. Then the speaker would start out talking calmly, then yell at the end, and then finish up by getting really quiet, and if it was C.J., by crying.

    I am SOOOOOOO done with honoring men – or should I say honoring and pastors. My hands would hurt from clapping and my legs from giving standing ovations for pastors, basically for no reason. One of the things I love about my church is that the pastor is an ordinary guy and we don’t give him standing ovations or honor him every week – only every so often (like once in three years we clapped for him.) And I don’t want to know every sordid detail about the pastor’s family. Please spare me the drama.

  56. Eagle wrote:

    Where was CJ Mahaney, Mark Driscoll, John Piper, and so many others when testicles were being distributed?

    Cee Jay: Being HUMBLE(TM).
    Bee Jay (Driscoll): “I CAN BEAT YOU UP!!!!!”
    Piper: Fluttering his hands.

  57. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Salk’s claim to fame, and it is a real one, is that it was he who first developed an effective vaccine against polio. At the time, polio – now all but eradicated – was the cause of untold misery and suffering. One of the reasons Salk was able to develop such an effective vaccine so quickly was that he gave no thought to personal profit at any stage.

    Salk was Jewish.
    Maybe he thought of the vaccine as a Mitzvah?

  58. senecagriggs yahoo wrote:

    I’m pretty sure all cardinals/bishops and priest bow down and kiss the Pope’s ring don’t they?

    When John Paul II was a Cardinal, if anyone tried to kneel and kiss his ring, he’d kneel right along with them as if to say “what do you think you’re doing?”

  59. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Salk’s claim to fame, and it is a real one, is that it was he who first developed an effective vaccine against polio. At the time, polio – now all but eradicated – was the cause of untold misery and suffering. One of the reasons Salk was able to develop such an effective vaccine so quickly was that he gave no thought to personal profit at any stage.

    This is my week to read my company’s daily technology issues report and we have a trivia quiz at the very end. Today I gave them Dr. Salk, because that guy was a *mensch* and deserves to be remembered on the 100th anniversary of his birth. I remember my mother telling us about how awful polio epidemics were when she was a kid, then the vaccine came out and it was such a relief! I wish we could have that kind of sustained effort for Ebola and send it packing as well.

  60. Makes sense that Jon Payne would sing CJ’s praises, having been programmed to do so at the Pastor’s College, and instructed in how to make it music to Mahaney’s ears by none other than Bob Kauflin.

  61. This may be somewhat OT but Throckmorton has a post about a letter by the Shoreline pastor confessing complicity in the MH disaster. What struck me was that the pastor exposed the culture and tactic of the ad hominem response to any questioning of authority or doctrine.

    The tables were turned on questioners and *they* become the divisive problem rather than the arrogant and authoritarian leaders and their disgraceful conduct. Pretty much what some here have described. There should be a page devoted to all the ad homs aimed at the Deebs who surely have earned admittance to the Blamed, Defamed and Shamed Hall of Fame.

  62. @ Gram3:
    In the book, The SubtlePower of Spiritual Abuse, one of the tactics described is to make the concerned person the problem. This is an abusive tactic which should be stopped in its tracks. If it happens to anyone, tell them that you have “read the book” and they can stick it up their nose.

  63. dee wrote:

    stick it up their nose

    Hmmm…… I was thinking……somewhere else that the sun does not shine…

  64. @ Nancy:

    Mary Kinney Branson told the story quite well in a book called “Spending God’s Money” conerning NAMB where she worked. she talked about how the trustee system worked. they are basically yes men and buy into whatever dog and pony show the president of the entity gives them.

    her book was also an interesting inside look into how many employees make money off of the SBC by writing curriculum, etc and then allowed to receive royalties in addition to their high salaries.

    Al Mohlers trustees are in awe of being in the same room with him. That is how it works.

  65. @ Lydia:

    Figures. About every time I ask some question like that the answer is money. You would think I would learn. Thanks for the information.

  66. BTW, upstream I referred to CJ as “MyHiney” because he should be listened to for inspiration as much as should the sound of the gas that passes from my hiney!

  67. dee wrote:

    2 comments by Seneca singing the same old tune were not approved.

    “Sometimes enough is enough”…as my late Grandmother said.
    Thank you dee….

  68. Lydia wrote:

    her book was also an interesting inside look into how many employees make money off of the SBC by writing curriculum, etc and then allowed to receive royalties in addition to their high salaries.

    All about the Benjamins, Baby!

    Al Mohlers trustees are in awe of being in the same room with him. That is how it works.

    Gasping with trembling lips like Bella before EDWARD (sparkle sparkle)?

    (ed. delete)

  69. linda wrote:

    Remember the ancient Israelites, how God was their leader? Only they wanted a king like everyone else around them? And the centuries of grief that brought?

    Considering how the Judges were governing them, maybe they just wanted to make the corruption and nepotism official.

  70. Nancy wrote:

    The first year I worked as a nurse’s aide the hospital where I was turned over one floor of one wing to polio patients in the old Drinker respirators. Scary stuff. I was too young to be allowed to work there.

    “Drinker Respirator” as in ward after ward of Iron Lungs hissing away?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AKRqDtzOlQ

    And just think…
    Nobody vaccinates any more because “It’ll give my kid Autism (Celebrities say so!) and besides, nobody gets polio any more!”

  71. Jenn Grover wrote:

    This also explains why SGM pastors quit pestering and caring for people and diminished the role of pastor to preaching. Mark Prater stood at my old SGM church and proclaimed one Sunday morning that “preaching would always be central on Sunday mornings in SGM churches.”

    Weekly Nuremberg Rally?

  72. @ Lydia:

    So the trustees are protecting the entity heads instead of the donors or the mission. That tells us who should trust the trustees.

    Do the trustees not realize that they are subjects of a real King? Why have they sold their privilege and trust for the approval of a mere man? Every one of them who bows before a man is an Esau.

  73. @ Gram3:
    the whole system of how trustees are chosen simply perpetuates itself. what trustee is going to admit that he’s not really independent or not influenced by groupthink? What trustee is going to admit that he does not know how to read detailed budgets.

    so the question is did the trustees at SBTS even know about the partnership with the unaccredited SGM pastors college. Inquiring minds would like to know. but if the donors don’t care what difference does it make?

  74. dee wrote:

    If this keeps up, I will give end of day tallies for the number of comments by Seneca deleted.

    Please do give a tally. It’s interesting how obsessed he gets when you post an article that has anything to do with CJ Mahaney.

  75. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Jenn Grover wrote:

    This also explains why SGM pastors quit pestering and caring for people and diminished the role of pastor to preaching. Mark Prater stood at my old SGM church and proclaimed one Sunday morning that “preaching would always be central on Sunday mornings in SGM churches.”

    Weekly Nuremberg Rally?

    my former non Calvinist church was recently taken over by a young restless and reformed 30 something. the congregation voted to agree that he would only preach– no pastoring.
    Little did they know how that works out.

    a friend of mine from that church called me a few days ago very frustrated. She said that all he does is complain about how hard it is and it exhausts him to prepare the sermons and give them weekly. Yet he is paid $80,000 a year to do ONLY that. And he is single….no kids!

    that movement seems to have birthed a lot of whiny young men who have no clue about hard work. the sermons I heard him preach early on were John Piper sermons.

    Entitlement mentality.

  76. Bridget wrote:

    Please do give a tally. It’s interesting how obsessed he gets when you post an article that has anything to do with CJ Mahaney.

    You’re blaspheming his REAL Personal LOORD and Savior?

  77. Former CLC’er wrote:

    I am SOOOOOOO done with honoring men – or should I say honoring and pastors. My hands would hurt from clapping and my legs from giving standing ovations for pastors, basically for no reason.

    Both Comrade Stalin and Baba Saddam liked standing ovations. Standing ovations that lasted for hours nonstop, with the Great Man’s enforcers dragging out and shooting on the spot any Traitor who faltered or showed Insufficient Enthusiasm for The Leader. (Stalin just had them draqged out; Saddam had the gunshots audible to the audience to encourage applause.) Descriptions of Stalin’s ovations included hands dripping blood from hour after hour of nonstop enthusiastic clapping.

  78. Lydia wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    the whole system of how trustees are chosen simply perpetuates itself. what trustee is going to admit that he’s not really independent or not influenced by groupthink? What trustee is going to admit that he does not know how to read detailed budgets.
    so the question is did the trustees at SBTS even know about the partnership with the unaccredited SGM pastors college. Inquiring minds would like to know. but if the donors don’t care what difference does it make?

    Maybe Brad Futurist will write something about positive feedback systems. ISTM that is what happened at MH and SGM and HBC and it is what is happening at SBTS and among th Gospel Glitterati. The only kind of man who will stand against groupthink is a man who knows he belongs to Someone Else. A man like Todd or Doug.

    If Mohler did not tell them, then they should have summoned up every ounce of their collective Biblical Manhood and fired him. That was their duty. Obviously they need a transfusion of Biblical Manhood from Owen (not John) or some Kephale from Grudem or a goofy tweet from Piper to lovingly lead them.

  79. Nancy wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I did not know that. That is awful.

    Those were two of the worst dictators of the past century. When these MenaGAWD’s actions and demands bring such men and things to mind, it’s NOT a good sign.

  80. Lydia wrote:

    Yet he is paid $80,000 a year to do ONLY that.

    Wait a minute… This character gets $80K to deliver a weekly sermon? And whines about it? What has gone wrong with the world?

  81. @ roebuck:

    I bet a lot of us could do a weekly sermon for less cash. Wait, I think I hear “the call.” Nope, just crows on the roof. Too bad.

  82. Nancy wrote:

    @ roebuck:
    I bet a lot of us could do a weekly sermon for less cash. Wait, I think I hear “the call.” Nope, just crows on the roof. Too bad.

    I don’t think people would like the sermon I would deliver. It might challenge their comfort zone.

    Plenty of crows around here – they always seem to be up to something. I like ’em.

  83. K.D. wrote:

    Adam Borsay wrote:

    As a third generation pastor I find nepotism extremely bothersome. We always joke that we chose the wrong “family business” since no one is getting rich. Both of my grandparents received seminary degrees(that’s where they met) my father and all of my uncles are ministers and I have been in vocational ministry for over a decade. Not one person in our family received, nor, sought after a position related to a parents or siblings position. We have never talked about it, but there is a general sense in our family(Hungarian immigrants post WW2) that you work hard for what you have yourself and don’t lazily accept someone else doing it for you.
    My father is the pastor of a fairly large church and people have asked me if I think I would ever come work there as he is nearing retirement. Maybe I am weird, but it makes me uncomfortable to assume I should just “inherit” my father’s ministry. If you are gifted and called to vocational ministry then you shouldn’t need to call in favors to have a job. If the only way you can support a family in ministry is taking advantage of your family’s name, you probably should be doing something else.

    It is happening more and more in the SBC, especially in modern dad to son pastors.
    The trouble is this, after so many generations in the ministry, does this type of average pastor really understand the folks sitting in the pews? Do they know what it is like to work 50-60 hours a week as a pipe fitter? ( local job) Do they really know what it’s like to make the commute to an office job they hate downtown? Every day??
    The best advice I ever got before I worked on a church staff was from a little lady who worked at a 7-11 type store….you got to experience life to be able to preach on it….she was absolutely right….

    Speaking as a missionary kid/somewhat PK, YES!!!! Glad to hear others saying this.

  84. Bridget wrote:

    dee wrote:

    If this keeps up, I will give end of day tallies for the number of comments by Seneca deleted.

    Please do give a tally. It’s interesting how obsessed he gets when you post an article that has anything to do with CJ Mahaney.

    It’s “wove, twue wove”

  85. Lydia wrote:

    She said that all he does is complain about how hard it is and it exhausts him to prepare the sermons and give them weekly. Yet he is paid $80,000 a year to do ONLY that. And he is single….no kids!

    I guess the young whipper-snapper hasn’t yet discovered Docent. If he can figure out a way to get the church to cough up the requisite cash for the services provided he will never have to write another sermon. It’s gotta be legit – both Driscoll and Chandler have said so.

  86. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I would venture to say that if Mahaney is a guest speaker at one of his denominational churches the pastor had better kiss the Pope’s ring, give verbose praise of His Humbleness and ensure his pew-sitters rise and give the mandatory ovation.
    Could you imagine Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, or (especially) Pope Francis demanding that sort of obeisance these days? I sure can’t, and those are official Popes and successors of Peter as Bishop of Rome.

    And the current Pope Emeritus, Benedict XVI ain’t exactly out there preaching conferences and promoting his books. . .

  87. Lydia wrote:

    a friend of mine from that church called me a few days ago very frustrated. She said that all he does is complain about how hard it is and it exhausts him to prepare the sermons and give them weekly. Yet he is paid $80,000 a year to do ONLY that. And he is single….no kids!

    Sheesh!!!!!!!!!!! Catholic priests get 40K (yes with housing) and must be on call AT ALL TIMES!

  88. Lydia wrote:

    a friend of mine from that church called me a few days ago very frustrated. She said that all he does is complain about how hard it is and it exhausts him to prepare the sermons and give them weekly. Yet he is paid $80,000 a year to do ONLY that. And he is single….no kids!

    I’m in the wrong racket.