This response to rape reports isn't unique to BJU, according to Peter Janci of the Portland law firm O'Donnell Clark & Crew. In the dozens of sex abuse cases he's brought against religious organizations, Janci says he's found this type of victim-blaming reaction to be "all too common."
A few weeks ago Aljazeera America published an eye-opening article entitled "Rape victims say Bob Jones University told them to repent". Here is how it begins:
Raised in a conservative Mennonite home in rural Ohio, Katie Landry was a sheltered kid. She hadn’t even held hands with a boy when, at age 19, she says her supervisor at her summer job raped her. Two years later, and desperate for help, she reported the abuse to the dean of students at her college.
“He goes, ‘Well, there’s always a sin under other sin. There’s a root sin,’” Landry remembers. “And he said, ‘We have to find the sin in your life that caused your rape.’ And I just ran."
Landry ended up dropping out of college, and didn’t tell anyone else for five years.
Her college was Bob Jones University in Greenville, S.C., the flagship campus of American fundamentalism, which teaches a literal interpretation of the Bible and separation from the world…
The article goes on to reveal that Bob Jones University (BJU) rejects "secular psychology". Instead, university leaders seem to promote a worldview where almost all mental problems, barring medical ones, are the result of sin.
Where do such ideas originate? Perhaps from Walter Fremont, who served as Dean of Education at BJU for 37 years. He and his wife Trudy, a BJU professor, co-authored a book in 1996 entitled Becoming An Effective Christian Counselor. In it they make it clear that the blame lies with the abuser; however, the above article states that…
the authors also make clear that being sexually assaulted is no excuse for the sinful feelings of discontentment, hate, fear, and especially, bitterness – unresolved anger that “in reality is rebellion and bitterness against God.”
One of the most bizarre statements in the Fremont's book is found in a section on incest. The Aljazeera America piece includes a photo of a page from the book that outlines a process for confronting abuse. The victim is encouraged to share his/her story, and the blame is placed on the older person who purportedly victimized the younger, innocent person. However, here is where it gets really bizarre. What follows is a direct quote from the book (according to the Aljazeera article):
4. If the victim has deceived either or both parents, he needs to confess and repent of his own sin. One example would be the case of a teenage girl who takes a bath only when her mother is away from home and leaves the bathroom door unlocked, inviting her father's corruptness.
First of all, did you notice how the gender was switched in this direct quote? The victim is initially identified as "he", and suddenly a teenage girl is mentioned in the concrete example. Obvious gender bias…
Claire Gordon, who wrote the linked article uploaded the following YouTube video, which illustrates just how pervasive victim blaming is at BJU. Here is a clip from a 2009 chapel message delivered by an adjunct professor. She included the following Editor's Note:
The below video is edited, because the original could only be found in clips, courtesy of Darrell Dow. The two cuts are clearly marked, and you can listen to the full audio of the sermon here.]
Is it any wonder that Bob Jones University desperately needs the help of Boz Tchividjian to tackle what appears to be a systemic problem. Hopefully, Boz will be able to finish his work and make recommendations that will stamp out this 'blame the victim' attitude among BJU leaders.
Some may think that Bob Jones University is alone in its "blame the victim" approach. However, we believe that such an unhealthy attitude regarding sex and sexual abuse can be found in other corners of Christendom.
Almost two years ago, Dee wrote a post entitled Mark Driscoll's Bizarre World of Queen Esther the "Bachelorette" . If you missed it, I want to encourage you to take the time to read it, particularly in light of what is happening these days at Mars Hill. Here is Mark Driscoll's ludicrous statement regarding Esther: link
““She grows up in a very lukewarm religious home as an orphan raised by her cousin. Beautiful, she allows men to tend to her needs and make her decisions. Her behavior is sinful and she spends around a year in the spa getting dolled up to lose her virginity with the pagan king like hundreds of other women. She performs so well that he chooses her as his favorite. Today, her story would be, a beautiful young woman living in a major city allows men to cater to her needs, undergoes lots of beauty treatment to look her best, and lands a really rich guy whom she meets on The Bachelor and wows with an amazing night in bed. She’s simply a person without any character until her own neck is on the line, and then we see her rise up to save the life of her people when she is converted to a real faith in God.”
“Esther has been grossly misinterpreted.”
“Feminists have tried to cast Esther’s life as a tragic tale of male domination and female liberation. Many evangelicals have ignored her sexual sin and godless behavior to make her into a Daniel-like figure, which is inaccurate. Some have even tried to tie her story in with modern-day, sex-slave trafficking as she was brought before the powerful king as part of his harem.”
Is this what is being taught at Western Seminary (the institution where Driscoll got his Masters degree)? You know, the one that is teaming up with Mars Hill this fall?
When Driscoll did this series, it certainly seemed that he was blaming Esther for being sold into the king's household. In that day and time, she DID NOT HAVE A CHOICE! Should she have fought him off and gotten killed? We seem to recall that Mark Driscoll’s teenage daughter believed Esther should have fought off the king's advances. That certainly would have interfered with divine providence…
Another organization that appears to have treated sex abuse victims poorly is Sovereign Grace Ministries, which has been embraced by well-known Christian leaders. You may remember the story of Donna Doe from the Second Amended Lawsuit filed against SGM et al. While the lawsuit may have been dismissed on a technicality, the testimonies stand for themselves. Donna Doe's story account can be found on pages 30-34 (item #133-152).
Basically, Donna's father (we believe he was actually her stepfather) was alleged to have been sexually molesting her. The SGM pastors instructed Donna's mother to allow her husband to return to the home to serve as 'head of the household'. She was to be a "godly wife' and forgive her husband for what he had done to her daughter. One of the defendants told Donna Doe that she had 'sinned' by not telling her mother sooner and that since she was also a 'sinner' she needed to 'forgive' her father for what he had done to her. A defendant also advised Donna Doe's mother to put a lock on the inside of her bedroom door and lock herself in each night to protect herself from her father.
That is just one example where Sovereign Grace pastors engaged in what appears to be victim blaming.
It is important to remember that victim-blaming is not just isolated to the BJU camp. It has been reported in other corners of Christendom. We must continue to shine the light in these dark corners so that the victims can be helped and the perpetrators can be correctly identified.
We should never underestimate the possibility that what is happening in IFB pockets such as BJU will be picked up by some conservatives who align themselves with The Gospel Coalition and Acts 29, among other groups. We cannot emphasize enough that this 'blame the victim' mentality can slowly creep in and do irreparable damage. Please join with us in praying that these victims will be once and for all vindicated, both at BJU and elsewhere.
Lydia's Corner: Daniel 11:2-35 1 John 3:7-24 Psalm 122:1-9 Proverbs 29:1
Under all sin there’s a root sin…
Nouthetic counseling at its finest.
(Y’all do recognize the sarcastic font, right?)
i just want to puke everytime I hear a sermon by mark driscoll. I don’t think the man has ever had a clue who Jesus is or anyone that the Lord has used since the beginning of time, I am just beyond words…
Lucy Pevensie wrote:
Definitely!
In case some of our readers have never heard of 'Nouthetic Counseling', it has been renamed. They now call it BIBLICAL COUNSELING. š
Here is some background information we provided last year.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/05/02/intro-to-nouthetic-biblical-counseling-and-its-founder-dr-jay-e-adams/
It’s because strong independent women scare the s**t out of them. They’re scared of female sexuality, scared of women who are independent thinkers, scared of women who are more muscular (see Piper) or tell them the way in a not sufficiently submissive way (Piper, again).
All these (neo-cal or other fundamentalist) sissies are the very opposite of real men – real men are not scared of strong women, they appreciate them.
Gus wrote:
How do you give directions in a submissive way?
“Why, sir, you might want to turn right at the next traffic light. And if it pleases you, you might stay on that road for about half a mile …”
Ridiculous.
There seem to be common threads in all of these examples of so-called ‘Christians’ who have no more regard for victims of abuse than the abusers themselves, if not less so.
The first is an extreme emphasis on sin to the exclusion of all else – ‘total depravity’ to the point where every sin must be rooted out and confessed in public (except by the church leadership, of course), and transferred to sexual abuse cases to the belief that, since the victim is a sinner, there must have been some sin on their part that contributed to their abuse.
But it’s pathetic how this only seems to apply to instances of sexual abuse. They don’t blame other types of crime victims based on their ‘sin’ – I didn’t hear these neo-fundies attributing sin to the victims of the Boston bombing, for example. It’s based on a sick view of sex that believes that, deep down, the victim really asked for it.
The other way in which neo-fundies encourage sexual abuse is with an essentially non-existent standard for repentance and forgiveness. Stand up, just say “I’m sorry”, shed a couple of crocodile tears, and everyone celebrates your ‘repentance’ and the victim is vilified if they fail to forgive them. These blind fools have no more discernment than someone who purchases the Brooklyn Bridge.
Deb wrote:
Which is neither “Biblical” nor “Counselling”.
JeffT wrote:
š
@ Deb:
Ty for doing that research! !
CCEF is in bed with SGM….I think Bridget had looked up a donations page and saw former SGM churches and current ones as donors….serious lack of integrity prevails
Hmm….those of us that have been around a few years remember when this was not just a church mentality but was a dominant societal mentality, as well. I remember when the first question a rape victim was asked by counselors and/or even investigators was, “What were you wearing?”
It is no wonder it is the most highly underreported crime….. š
Gus wrote:
I’d love to put Piper, Driscoll or any other members of the He Man Woman Haters Club (from Calvin & Hobbes, heh heh) up against any one of my female managers. Let’s just say they wouldn’t last long in our environment. Not because it’s especially harsh, but because the whole notion that women are inferior would absolutely not fly here. These beliefs have consequences. Some years ago, I knew a female executive who went to India for a meeting and a determination as to whether she would start offshoring jobs to India in her group. She had such a poor experience over there (as in, the men treated her like she was either eye candy or wallpaper) and came back swearing that as long as she was exec, she would not be doing any India hiring. As far as I can tell, she’s held to that pledge.
Gus wrote:
Ironically, it was Margaret Thatcher who was famous for (among many other things) saying, If you have to say you’re strong, you’re not.
We did have an “Iron Duke” (of Wellington) a while back. But we’ve never had a Prime Minister called “the Iron Gentleman”. I’m not saying that isn’t a good thing, but there you are.
Y’all, I need to confess sin. I have been angry and afraid and hurt and overly-cautious and broken in many many ways since I….
Oh wait, since I was sexually assaulted by someone I trusted and cared about.
mirele wrote:
These guys wouldn’t know a man’s man if it kicked them in the rear.
I know welders and pipe fitters who could throw these guys around like rag dolls, would whip anyone who would abuse a woman like a ” rented mule” yet, are some of the most humble men I know…they’d give you the shirt off your back….but cross them or their friends and family and it’ll be a long day….
@ Caitlin:
It occurs to me that sin beneath the sin is actually that guy’s conscious action, rather than my reaction.
Unless he was empowered by God to punish me for having the potential to be angry about being assaulted (since, you know, I wasn’t angry about being assaulted BEFORE I was assaulted….) *Mind Blown*
JeffT wrote:
I’m not aware that any of them asked Park Fiscal how he had sinned when he was cruelly victimised by Petry and Meyer, with their sinful question as to whether he was wise to place himself at the apex of an unbiblical pyramid. Even though Fiscal himself described the experience as “devastating”.
Whereafter, JeffT further wrote:
Which in turn is based on the schizophrenic ideology that runs thus:
ļ£æ Women are weak and easily-deceived, and should be joyful whenever they are able to submit to male headship; and
ļ£æ Men are helpless to master their sexual appetites and are easily led into gross sin by women.
K.D. wrote:
Oh, I think they would.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
This. Blame the women as temptresses because you act like a rutting buck rather than a human being – a fatal flaw in fundamentalist Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
JeffT wrote:
Let me edit that for you: A fatal flaw in human nature. Thoroughly secular guys will tell their girlfriends “You turned me on, we have to have sex now.”
BJU seems to be teaching their students that life in Christ is all about men and what women can do to serve them.
mirele wrote:
As I recall, Calvin dubbed it G.R.O.S.S., which stands for “Get Rid Of Slimy girlS”. It’s still chauvinism, of course, but it’s actually kind of cute compared to Driscoll and Piper’s infuriatingly ignorant teachings.
And in somewhat different news, the WatchDog is reporting that Ergun Caner has been ordered to pay $34,389.59 to Jon Autry to cover the monies Autry had to expend in defending against Caner’s spurious copyright lawsuit.
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-truth-is-incontrovertible-judge.html
If Caner had gone all Scientology, he could have made Autry’s life a living h*ll. I know two people who were sued by Scientology and had their homes raided over copyright violations. One case was ultimately settled out of court; in the other, the judge found the defendant (who had put a boatload of Scientology secret scripture on the Internet) guilty of a dozen or so violations, but fined him $500 each, not the $100,000 each Scientology was seeking. Scientology also requested millions in legal fees, but Judge Brinkema was having none of it and awarded Scientology $18,000 in costs.
I’m rather thinking Caner has his hands full, what with the failure of his court cases (aka legal harassment) and that the college he’s president of has just lost its SACS accreditation.
Caitlin wrote:
I never realized until now that you’ve been through this, Caitlin. I can’t imagine what it’s like to carry that around. May God surround you with people who care about you.
To first say unequivocally, what is reported here, and seen in other similar instances, about how BJU “dealt” with this is absolutely reprehensible.
But in reactonism to their wildly misapplied “theological” counseling we run the risk of the pendulum swinging to far the other direction.
On one end is how BJU(and others) approach “helping” victims of abuse—IE, making them face their abusers and confess/forgive. On the other end is denialism that our circumstances can create sinful behaviors and reactions by us.
For example, it is not a sin to lose my job and go bankrupt, but how I choose to handle it can become sin behavior that can ultimately be as destructive and painful as what has happened to me. Bitterness, anger, resentment, etc, are all damaging attitudes and behaviors that can destroy me from the inside, regardless of the validity of the “object” of those feelings.
A living illustration of someone we would all hold in high esteem would be Corrie Ten Boom. Who hasn’t heard her amazing testimony of forgiveness, especially when she comes face to face with the most abusive SS officer and comes to the realization that if she can’t forgive him as well, then how can she experience her own forgiveness. Her act of forgiveness does not absolve the officer of his sin and her pain, but it frees her.
If we would take her story and uphold it as an ideal for all of us to strive after, then it would logically follow that forgiveness and dealing with our own sinful reactions to LEGITIMATE suffering is to be encouraged and supported.
Of course her example is not a perfect 1 to 1 comparison to the BJU issue. To change the context, I don’t think forgiveness of the SS officer would equate to allowing him to continually abuse Corrie and her family when the power to stop him existed.
So while I support logically, philosophically and theologically the importance of victims letting go of bitterness(I know that bitterness does a poor job of fully encompassing the emotional realities of abuse), I don’t support the way BJU went about it.
I think there is a reason that stories where a formerly abused child comes to their abusive parents hospital bed as they lay dying to forgive them and let them go resonate so powerfully with us. In these stories we are not defending the abusive behavior, but recognizing that letting the abuser “go” doesn’t free them, but us.
@ Serving Kids in Japan:
‘He Man Woman Haters Club’ is from Our Gang (aka Little Rascals), back in the 50’s, I think, or maybe even the ’40’s.
@ Serving Kids in Japan:
He is. It’s a long, slow process and there are a lot of steps backward, but things are falling into place.
I’ll never be who I was before, but I’m getting to a place where I’m okay with that, because who I am now is stronger and more compassionate and braver and fiercer and not willing to let it happen to others. God redeems all.
@ roebuck:
Much earlier. Started in 1922 or so as shorts for movie theaters.
@ sam h:
I know what you mean Sam H, before I knew about survivors from his church I would refute with young people on FB about his so called amazing sermons. I would point out where he erred and misquoted scripture but they were mesmerized by his vulgarity and authoritative tone. A couple of years ago I found myself saying that I get physically ill just seeing a picture of his face. He says he ‘sees’ things in other people’s lives. He is so open about his licentious beliefs that one doesn’t even have to ‘see’ anything in him to know something is very wrong in his life. I think he simply projects his problems onto other people, nothing unique for a narcissist.
JeffT wrote:
You get all my plus points today.
@ Adam Borsay:
I’m curious to know how you would do this.
For example, in my case I spent about five years completely doubting my memory of the event (telling myself it didn’t happen at all) and then another four years down playing it and then the past year I’ve looked at my own pattern of behavior (being terrified of physical contact with people, incredibly jumpy, do not approach me from behind, ever, a few physiological things I won’t get into here) and realizing “Wait a minute… I fit this pattern, I’m a survivor too….”
By then, the guy in question has been out of my life… for years and years and will never be part of it again. Thanks to the nature of our relationship at the time, I always found him “less culpable” (That was a major part of the reason I denied it for four years and what I’ve been struggling with for the past year- he surely didn’t mean it, he was just socially awkward and inept and no one liked him and I was the only girl who’d give him the time of day, surely it’s not his fault….)
So, any B-word I might be harboring is not actually directed toward him at all, to this day I am fighting the urge to excuse him. Fighting the urge to take all the responsibility onto MY shoulders. If only I had been more straightforward and told him I wasn’t interested (I did). If only I had stayed away like the other girls (they were cruel to him and I wasn’t, I even stood up for him against the gaggle of preteen viciousness). He wasn’t raised properly- he had cancer as a child and his mother spoiled him beyond all imagining. He would have screaming fits as a 17 year old in class if the teacher told him to behave. Surely such a person isn’t responsible for his own….
See what I’m getting at? I’m hurt and beaten down and constantly constantly second-guessing myself and my choices. Second-guessing my own compassionate, caring instincts, second-guessing my desire to be empathetic, to understand why people act the way that they do. Second-guessing also the self-protective instincts I earned through hard lessons. And now, I’m second-guessing my own heart condition because I clearly haven’t forgiven him because I still feel this way. But I can’t even get to the point where I feel like I have something to forgive at all, because deep down I still blame myself and absolve him.
So, what’s your advice? How do I clear all of these sinful reactions of out my life?
Holy.
Shucking.
Fit.
Pardon my language, but I just absolutely could not believe those quotes. What an intense combination of evil, foolishness, and intellectual vapidity! I’m actually embarrassed.
Adam Borsay wrote:
Frees her how? Frees her to do what? How long do you think it took Corrie to get to the place of forgiveness? Years, decades?
Adam, have you ever heard of PTSD or RTS (rape trauma syndrome)? You see, the sexual perpetrator will not suffer physically, mentally, or emotionally for his action. The victim’s life is most often affected every day in a variety of ways. The very sexual act meant to convey love in a tender manner has been distorted and used as a weapon. Hopefully, some day it will be possible for a relationship, but it’s not uncommon for the affects to cause a victim to recoil at the thought of loving, trusting, and engaging in any intimate activity.
Yet we think we have the right to schedule a victim’s forgiveness and expect it will make everything alright again…because now she’s free??
Many here can confirm the lasting effects of sexual assault, domestic violence, or any other violent act. Vets are familiar with the lasting effects of the trauma they experienced and horror they witnessed years afterward.
Adam, bitterness and anger are natural reactions to horrible events, and if one cannot understand that, I have no words to try to evoke compassion and comprehension.
Free for/from what?
@ Adam Borsay:
Do you have a personal story of how you have dealt with forgiving sexual abuse? I mean how do you feel when there are triggers that stir up old feelings. I really have a hard time finding the right amount of feelings to hang on to enough in order to help prevent abuse or help bring justice when I dwell so much on forgiving. I tend to get complacent and then I add that guilt to my bitter conscience.
Hey Deebs, I thought bitter was a banned word here!
@ Patti:
I have a longer comment in moderation, but I what to echo Patti’s sentiments here.
I’m in earnest, I have some major cognitive dissonance between what I think the Bible has to say about forgiveness (that it’s basically a hallmark of being a Christian and whatnot) versus how I feel toward this guy and how I feel toward myself. How DOES a Christian forgive something, how does she or he know that the forgiveness is real? Should I be expecting some sort of release from my triggered reactions? Should I feel like this is something that happened to me and nothing more? What about the fact that living in this world means that I’m constantly faced with situations that remind me so heavily of my own? Is THAT a sign that I haven’t forgiven this guy?
An Attorney wrote:
I guess it was some of the first stuff from Max Sennet. I watched it a lot when it was in syndication in the 50’s and 60’s. Weird and funny stuff…
awaiting moderation… š
@ Caitlin:
That is such a profound question.
Marie2 wrote:
Absolutely correct!
We connected the dots between SGM and CCEF almost four years ago. Here’s an excerpt from a post we wrote on SGM, CCEF, and Peacemaker Ministries way back then.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/09/14/connecting-the-dots-sgm-ccef-and-peacemaker-ministrie/
Why forgive someone if they’re not sorry? When does God forgive us? When we’re sorry and ask for forgiveness. Are we to do “better” than God?
Victorious wrote:
Believe me, I WANT to be free very badly, just like I’m sure people suffering from clinical depression WANT to be happy or people suffering from cancer WANT to be cured. But I’m sorry, God doesn’t just wave a magic wand over our lives and make it all better.
That being said, I don’t deny that God has the power to liberate me in this life as well, and I’m really really desiring to know how that can be achieved. Seriously, this is a thing that I want. I’m getting married in 2 months and my fiance cannot give me hugs from behind because they scare me. I’m not just a man-hating feminist out there calling all men evil and holing myself up in a tower. We’re talking real pain and real fear. real damaging effects on real relationships.
Patti wrote:
That's right! Hey folks, no more using the word 'bitter'!
Shannon H. wrote:
I don’t know about that…. God forgave us through the cross before we even knew Him enough to be sorry. (This is different from confession, mind, but confession is more about stopping the sin in our lives at the moment by listing them). I love Him because He first loved me. I am sorry because He forgave me. It was such a dramatic way to express forgiveness to everyone that I found it impossible to not be sorry in the face of the truth of it. That God made Himself human and let His creation destroy Him.
And as far as forgiving people who are not sorry… Well, I don’t see why forgiveness has to be conveyed to the person we are forgiving. When Jesus talks about humans forgiving humans, He makes it sound like it’s about the forgiver. If I forgive this guy, it’s because it’s good for me to do so, not because it’s good for him to hear it. As far as I’m concerned, I can forgive him right here where I’m sitting and he never has to hear of it.
but it’s something that I’m wrestling with and trying to understand.
Caitlin, give this a read: http://gideonz.tripod.com/articles/forgiveness.html
@ Shannon H.:
Huh. That is interesting. I totally get that confession and repentance are part of the deal when it comes to God’s forgiveness (If we don’t even accept that we’re in NEED of saving/if we don’t even accept that we have a debt to repay, how could we possibly accept that God has repaid it.)
But when it comes to people, I guess I’m getting caught up in the semantic difference between forgiveness and love your enemies. In some sense, this is what I was saying in my earlier comment. It’s not good to *hate* your enemies because that is a sick-heart condition in ourselves. But I guess I’ve assumed that forgiving enemies is how you don’t hate them. This is suggesting that that’s not the case.
Here’s one clarification, I do feel comforted by the promise that God will take vengeance (well, more like I feel comforted by the knowledge that God knows what happened to me and hasn’t forgotten.) And I think that God has His own forgiving to do vis a vis this guy- what he did to me was a sin against me AND a sin against God. so any forgiveness/no forgiveness isn’t tied to whether I think God should just forget it. To me, it’s dual question of: 1. Am I living out my faith in a way that accurately reflects the debts that *I* no longer owe thanks to God and 2. Am I keeping myself unnecessarily tied in negative emotions?
The anger and wrath part… I’m not angry as much as hurt, not hardhearted as much as thoroughly smooshed.
Shannon H. wrote:
While we were still dead in our sin, according to Colossians 2:13. Being dead means unable to ask forgiveness in faith in a way that pleases God in Christ, because “without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.” (Hebrews 11:6.)
God forgave us while we were dead. He didn’t wait for us to ask for it, he just gave it as a free gift of his grace.
@ Tim:
Yes, God seeks us out first and then we seek Him.
I wonder if they are consistent in demanding immediate forgiveness (and not prosecuting) for other crimes…
I know he stole from your store, but you sinned by leaving the merchandise out and you need to forgive him.
I know she vandalized your property, but you need to forgive her. (and you shouldn’t have stopped watching your stuff for an instant)
I know he murdered your brother but you need to forgive him. (like now)
… etc …
Here is a thought, FWIW. Wikipedia has a good article on forgiveness, and in the article they discuss what forgiveness means in Judaism. It is different from what christians are talking about today.
So here is the problem. Jesus talked about forgiveness, but he did not define the term. Why not? Are we to assume he was talking about forgiveness as understood by his Jewish audience, and perhaps by himself, or was he introducing a new concept? If it was a new concept, why did he not explain that?
Before I leap to a different understanding of forgiveness, and say that is what Jesus meant, I need some evidence that such is the thing to do. Perhaps this an instance in which we need to go back and take a look at the religious and cultural ideas of the time and see if that sheds any light on the issue of forgiveness as taught by Jesus.
You are so right that this isn’t limited to certain parts of Christendom. It’s also not limited to the sin of sexual abuse. There’s an underlying pattern here that many authoritarian Christian groups use pretty consistently, and I think it’s important to recognize that. It goes something like this.
1) There is some sin by someone in the group.
2) Someone calls this out in some way. The person who does so might be the victim, or may be a third party who is concerned.
3) The response from the group leader(s) is to immediately characterize the person in (2) above as sinful. Specifically, justified anger is characterized as divisive discontent. Questioning is characterized as unfaithfulness. The person’s faith and salvation are not infrequently called into question.
4) The group leader(s) then try to set the accusing person straight, usually by insisting that they repent or change in some way. If the person or persons fail to come around, they are booted out in some fashion.
5) There is no admission of or repentance for the horrendous sin that began the whole thing and that often leaves many victims in its wake. The rapid shifting of blame to the victim and/or accuser precludes this.
I’ve seen this pattern in my own family member who is deeply into the JMac camp and nouthetic counseling. Even the terminology used to characterize me and others when we confronted them about the issue is very similar. I’ve also seen it in other groups. Without exception in my experience, the groups that do this are heavily authoritarian and doctrinaire, and functionally insular. Sociologically, there are usually cultic tendencies. The group is protected at almost any cost. Guilt is transferred to the outsider (or soon to be outsider), and the whole thing is neatly rationalized.
“Breath in; Breath out; Move on.” Jimmy Buffet
@ Adam Borsay:
Hi Adam, thank you very much for coming by and typing your thoughts out. I have no doubt that that took a good deal of time and effort to do that, and from the heart.
I don’t see a point to having a dialog with you from my perspective of a childhood sexual abuse victim. People here are covering that topic marvelously. Asking questions, sharing their story, etc.
If you ever feel a serious call from God to truly learn about this important topic, I can connect you with some materials and awesome friends in recovery.
But I did want to comment that in spite of previous attempts to engage with a serious conversation with you, all I get from you is smokescreen, crickets and tumble weeds. I’m sorry that you’re missing out on connecting with about a third of the people you encounter, unless you don’t believe the overwhelming statistics on this issue.
Adam Borsay wrote:
Adam, you used the example of Corrie Ten Boom.
Did other Christians shame and blame Ten Boom into forgiving her oppressors, and brow beat her into it? Or, did she make up her own mind to do that, and on her own time table?
I can see the value in a victim letting go of anger and hatred towards an abuser (learning to let go allows them to get on with their own life and enjoy living again, for instance), but I don’t see how rushing that person through it, or insisting that they MUST do so because “the Bible says” so, is going to be helpful, sensitive to their situation, or effective.
The OP quoting a Christian book on counseling,
Soooo… any time a woman takes a shower with a door unlocked or with a mother not in the household, this means she is intentionally courting for, or seeking, sexual advances from her male family members? What the? šÆ
I grew up in a house with a mom, dad, older brother and sister. Sometimes, when I was a kid, teen, and a 20 something, we went on vacations, where I stayed at homes with aunts, uncles, male cousins (and yes, I took showers at these various homes).
According to that OP quote of that book, I should maybe break out the Thank You note cards and write all these male relatives something like,
‘Hey, thank you so much for not sexually assaulting me all those times I took showers while you were under the same roof as me, no adult women were around, and it didn’t occur to me to lock the bathroom door, or I forgot to.’
Does Hallmark make, “Thank you for not attacking me for leaving a bathroom or bedroom door unlocked, or for Mom not being home with us” card? -Ay, caramba.
It’s strange that some of these views that seek to put more blame and responsibility on women – that seem to mostly be promoted by men, by the way – actually make men look pretty deviant and warped.
What does it say about the male gender that they (according to this teaching) think it’s okay to sexually assault their female relatives, and at that, merely for taking a shower when Mom isn’t there, or the bathroom door is not locked??
@ Daisy:
Excellent points. Hallmark needs to get with the program with cards, an appropriate annual day of gratitude for not sexually assaulting us sinful females. Can anyone remedy this important business need, and please contact American Greetings and Hallmark and address this ASAP???
@marie2 I am not sure I understand how you perceive me giving a smokescreen etc on this issue…To clarify, I agree it is big issue. I agree that the way places like BJU and others have dealt with it are completely wrong. My point(at least concerning this particular article) is that while we are right to correctly call out the atrocious actions of BJU(and others), we risk going too far the other way and ignoring that things that have happened to us can become the fertile soil for things that we do that are not good.
I don’t think that any victim should EVER be forced to face their attacker and “forgive” them. But I do believe when we don’t forgive those who have wronged us, it can be destructive internally for ourselves. Again, you CAN NOT force someone to forgive. But we can love, encourage and want to bring healing in a persons life. But the GOAL isn’t getting them to forgive. If you (as a counselor) start with the end goal as being “This person forgives their attacker” you will only hurt them and cause more damage. Forgiveness isn’t something you can manufacture, but something that internally grows inside of us as we heal. In any counseling you cannot set some sort of artificial result/goal that your expecting to achieve with that person and “lead” them towards it. For instance, if someone has an eating disorder, you don’t focus everything about “lets get you eating!!” you have to deal with a ton of internal “secondary” issues that need patience, love and grace. When those are appropriately addressed over time, the eating disorder issues become something that is more easily addressed.
So, if someone says, “I can’t forgive my attacker”. You don’t say, well, lets work on that. There is a whole slew of other issues that are going to be swirling around internally. Lack of forgiveness is just a symptom of deep seated hurt, it ISN”T the problem. When someone comes to a place of real healing, forgiveness is a natural state because they no longer “hurt” you. Getting the carriage in front of the horse is horrifically painful.
@ Adam Borsay:
So this just confuses me more… I don’t think ANYone is saying “Be sure to hold on to all that bad feeling and let it eat you up inside because you can’t forgive this guy”
So I’m not sure what you’re getting at…?
@ Victorious:
I agree there isn’t not a “time table” for forgiveness. And it is a completely rational and natural reaction to being assaulted/hurt/etc to have ongoing feelings of anger and the other word…;) It is when those feelings become the defining characteristics of our life that we begin to see serious problems crop up. Again, I am not saying we just tell people, “suck it up, be happy, cuz, you know, Jesus”
Depending of the severity of our past experiences the degree to which we experience long term effects can vary. But as I have said before, we are spiritual creatures who are active moral agents in our own lives. The choices we make will have profound effects on our experiences and how we heal. And sometimes it is not incorrect to label issues where the pain is never ceasing to things we are currently doing that get in the way of healing. Again, it is never your fault if you are assaulted, what you do afterwards is up to you.
Where I think BJU wrongly applies this theology in 1) A forced time table of forgiveness 2) Directly linking without question what happened to you with what YOU did 3) Treating the perpetrators like any run of the mill “sinner” 4) Conflating “general” sin in peoples lives to be related to the specific experience they are dealing with.
Walter Fremont’s counseling book says: “4. If the victim has deceived either or both parents, he needs to confess and repent of his own sin. One example would be the case of a teenage girl who takes a bath only when her mother is away from home and leaves the bathroom door unlocked, inviting her father’s corruptness. ”
All I can manage is *@#$%^^^!!#%”!!!!!!! A daughter has to lock the bathroom door in her own home??? As Dee says, “GOOD NIGHT!!”
I also see this blame theme in Christian subculture often. In fact just a few days ago, I had a very disturbing exchange of ideas with a fellow brother. He said that Bathsheba should have resisted King David’s advances, and that she might actually have enjoyed the attention from the most powerful person in their society.
Sometimes the blindness is so thick, that I just don’t know what to say. People cling so tightly to whatever positive things are happening among Mars Hill, SGM, Acts 29, etc. From my perspective, the grip is so tight, that even when presented with undeniable evidence of error, they’d rather carry on as usual.
(off topic)
Don’t Deb and Dee live in North Carolina (or is it South C.)? NC is expecting to be slammed by a hurricane by tomorrow:
“Hurricane Arthur strengthens over Atlantic, forecasted to become Category 2”
http://www.foxnews.com/weather/2014/07/03/arthur-takes-aim-at-carolinas/
Looks like folks who live in and around NC are going to have a soggy Independence Day.
I kinda wish that was the case where I live (rain, at least, not a hurricane). The people here go absolutely nuts with fireworks for hours on end on July 4 to the point you think you are going to lose your hearing.
@ Adam Borsay:
Ty for staying here and not running away. I’ll be back with longer analysis of how what you initially wrote, with the Corrie ten Boom story, has unfortunately been the crux of an argumental hammer that many pastors have attempted to wield to “help” me, but just wound me more.
My opinion on trying to listen to pastors like you is their attempts to help me not throw any theological babies out with my painfully stinging bathwater is like listening to an obnoxious teenager simplify reasons why staying in school is not necessary.
Learning to respectfully engage with sexual abuse survivors to help them finally regain their dignity is hard, serious work.
@ Marie2:
Amen.
Quite frankly, I wouldn’t want any part of the religion that speaks that way. I can blame myself quite enough. I don’t see myself as any different than someone with a physical or mental illness: this is certainly not what God has planned for me ultimately, nor what would have happened in a sinless world, but that doesn’t mean that I’m complicit.
If the argument is something like “Take responsibility for yourself!”… well, that’s coming from someone who doesn’t live inside my head, because lemme tell you, I take on too much responsibility in this situation. Way too much.
Hi Daisy
We should be fine in Raleigh but will get soe rain. It has been a rainy year in NC. I absolutely loved “The PugsĀ of Westeross.”
Caitlin wrote:
Sorry, I am not as articulate in real life as I am in my head…..
I think the terrible conundrum in psychological and spiritual distress is there is never a simplistic formula and steps that we can say, “Do this, and you are better”. We know that two very similar people can have the exact same trauma and respond in radically different ways. And we still cannot directly identify some non-negotiable standard that we can hold up and say, “this is why”.
In my experience I think what can often be unhelpful is hyper focusing on the specific trauma and making everything about “making it ok”.
This isn’t a fair way to compare it, but when I exercise I have noticed that lifting weights has a measurable positive effect on my running. Though I am primarily addressing different muscle groups. And vice versa, a plateu in the bench press can actually be addressed by stopping the bench for a bit and adding more cardio. We are amazingly interconnected, and if we ONLY address one part of ourselves, we reach a point of diminishing returns in seeing improvement.
In the same way, what is not always helpful for victims is making everything about the specifics of their specific experience. But as one holistically addresses multiple area in their live in a positive way, some of the initial significant problems begin to be positively effected.
It is sort of like the law/grace debate. We can get enamored with the law because it gives us something to do and make for ourselves. But the law will never make us good. But being good(by grace) drives us towards being good. Which is why i am a big Tullian Tchividjan fan, and he does a better job of me at articulating that concept.
For my own person life; I was sexually molested as a young kid by an older male relative. I luckily was never made to feel it was my fault or anything like that. But I internalized a lot of what I was incapable of really processing. As I aged and went through puberty my hurt and confusion progressively manifested itself in deeper and deeper sexual sin issues that by the time college had begun had a firm control in my life.
It wasn’t my fault that what happened to me happened. But how I dealt with it developed an ever increasing destructive life. Those were MY sins. No one MADE me do them. But, my circumstances made it a lot easier to choose them. Healing for me didn’t come until adult hood, and was never about “that experience”, but more about dealing with all the other bologna that was going on in my life that was making me “unwell”. As I healed, grew in grace, immersed in fellowship, the pain and confusion about my experience continued to get better. I never said, “today, I am going to address ‘this'” For me, it was something that happened, that I had allowed to define me from that moment forward. The change, for me, was no longer being defined by that, but being defined by Christ. And as that grew, the power the experience had over me slowly disappeared. In all honesty, 30ish years after the fact, I can’t remember the last time it had any sort of impact or effect on my emotional well being…though it used to be EVERYTHING.
Adam Borsay wrote:
Thank you for clarifying how you see this issue of forgiveness and healing, Adam. For the most part, we are in agreement.
The one area that is slightly “iffy” is the one I’ve quoted in my comment about labeling issues where pain is “never ceasing” and certain things may get in the way of healing. This may be true and obvious to a number of people who know the victim, but it’s not up to just anyone to suggest this to her/him. People who have been traumatized often block out or initially minimize or deny many of the details until a time they can psychologically deal with it. They are in (for lack of a better term) survival mode. To break down that barrier when the victim is not ready, is dangerous to their well-being.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts about this serious topic.
@ Adam Borsay:
That makes sense. I guess part of where I’m struggling to follow you is that, in my case, what I’m experiencing isn’t “sin” at all unless you happen to take a very harsh view of human pain. I’m not acting out in self-destructive ways (no drugs or alcohol abuse, DEFINITELY no sexual sins…) I’m not throwing darts at a photo of the guy who hurt me. Instead, I’m just quietly sobbing inside.
It’s “sin” in the sense that it is part of the human sin condition and a thing that would not happen to me in God’s kingdom. But it’s not a conscious choice on my part. I’m not choosing to be sad. I’m in fact choosing to try to turn it around.
But I can’t help but read stuff like your first post and think “Shoot, I’m still failing.” And when people say “you need to take responsibility for what happens,” maybe you think you’re saying “Don’t use what happened to you as an excuse to go out and self-destruct” (a valid point and something that I’m *not* doing) but what other people are saying and what I’m hearing is “Get over it.”
The fear of and aversion to physical intimacy is a REAL thing that is not a choice on my part and is a thing that a lot of people out there would consider a sin (at least in a few months when I tie the knot and become all official- sure does make premarital purity easy peasy when you start sobbing at the thought of being so vulnerable….)
And now, sport.
The Diamond League athletics is underway in Lausanne; the big guns in the men’s high jump are struggling somewhat, but Lynsey Sharpe has broken 2 minutes for the first time in the women’s 800. At the time of writing, the men’s 200 (Johan Blake) is still to come.
More athletics: wee Usain Bolt, after an injury-hit season, has declared himself “available for selection” for the Jamaican relay team at the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow. Not sure yet whether they’ll take him up on that. I mean, would you?
Tennis: it’ll be former champion Petra Kvitova against wee Genie Bouchard, playing only her second Wimbledon, in the Lassies’ Final. The Laddies’ Final (and note the double “d” there) could yet be between Djoko and the Fed – that’s be rolling back the years just a little bit! (Roger and Mirka, of course, now have two sets of twins. Apparently they’ve always wanted a big family – and a good job too.)
Fitba’: fitba’s back themorrer. It seems that seven of the German squad are suffering from a mystery flu-like illness, the timing of which is inconvenient to say the least.
@ Adam Borsay:
I should add that this is the difference between what you have been saying and what BJU is saying: BJU and Christian Counseling would absolutely see what I’m going through as a bad sign, rather than part of the healing process.
It is however helpful to hear from other people who have been down a similar road and found their way to the end of it. Thank you for being open.
Adam Borsay
Just a few thoughts on forgiveness..Ā First, I like to think of it in a different way. I hope that the abused inidividual gets to the point that they can say, about the abuser, “He can’t hurt me anymore.” It is the hope that the person becomes strong enough to fully liveĀ and enjoy theirĀ lives in spite of an abuser who tried to co opt that person for their personal warped gain. In fact, I rejoice when I see someone living out Ā their life with joy since that is a way to “stick out their tongue” at their abuser.
Forgiveness is not complete until the one needing forgiveness asks for it in a sincere, thoughtful, humble manner. Unfortunately, the abuser is often someone who does notĀ seeks forgiveness because the psych of such an abuser makes him/her believe he/sheĀ hasĀ doneĀ nothing wrong. In the years that I have been following child and teen sex abuse as well as domestic abusers,Ā I have rarely seen any abuser ask for forgiveness that isĀ both heartfelt andĀ nonmanipulative, especially when followed for a few years.
I think that ayone who has been the victim of horrendous abuse may not ever be able to forgive the offender norĀ should they be forced or coerced into doing so. Often outsiders who have not been abused want the abusee to do this so that they feel like it is allĀ resolved. It is for them and their psyche;Ā it is rarely for the welfareĀ ofĀ the abusedĀ person. There are few pastors who are willing to do the work to stand by the abused, no matter how long it Ā takes-up to and including a lifetime. It is just too time consuming and draining.Ā
Frankly, many churches with which I have had experience seem far more motivated to suck up and support the abuser because abusers know how to play the manipulation game and cry big crocodile tears. They know how to stroke the ego of those who want a qucik repentance and a success story-neatly tied up in a big bow.
Ā
@ Caitlin:
As I said it is unfair to ever tell someone that if they just do “this” they will be better, and if they aren’t better, they are doing it right….
With that being said, a general guide for anyone suffering is(imo) 1) Get professional help—I don’t know your story at all, but maybe it is chemical in nature 2) Get loving supportive people in your life(I am of course biased towards healthy church community) 3) Patience, and being ok with not being ok….
To expand point 3….Sometimes we make it worse for ourselves by setting some standard of being ok that we have to reach. Because we often don’t reach it….at least not quickly. When we do that we just “pile on” ourselves. Versus taking each day as it comes and being ok with where you are at in that moment.
@ Dee
Completely agree with your post. I don’t think anyone should be required to forgive anyone else. That isn’t healing or helpful. To put what I have said in a slightly different way….If a counselor(biblical or otherwise) said, “Our goal is by the end our time together you will forgive “Joe”…I would recommend running far far away from them.
Adam Borsay wrote:
It’s not the notion that we all ought to forgive sin against us that’s tripping people here up, it’s the notion that it need be immediate or somehow the victim is in sin, harboring bitterness and hate. It’s the idea and that any man has the right by dint of their self-appointed title in the church to come crashing into an extremely painful situation and force a molested child to go through some artificial “forgiveness ritual” in which they have to be present in the same room as the monster who molested them and tell them “all’s forgiven” (and then I suppose be thrown back into the arms of their abusers?). It’s the idea that somehow all sin is perfectly equal and the child who leaves her bathroom door ajar while taking a shower is guilty just like the step father who rapes her.
These attitudes, the ones that lead supposed Christians to equate all sin and ignore the clear and unmistakable fact that of some people’s sin Jesus said “Whoever’s without sin, throw the first stone”, while other people’s sin inspired Jesus to take up a weapon and attack them Himself (John 2), publicly call them “sons of hell” and “whitewashed tombs”.
One must not forget that Jesus said of these perpetrators that it would be better for them to quite literally be killed or commit suicide. Either that’s so or I’m grossly misrepresenting Matthew 18.
@ Adam Borsay:
I have gotten/ am getting professional help. The problem comes when my own understanding of forgiveness, which is not quite so extreme as BJU’s clashes with what other well-meaning Christians have to say about forgiveness. Which can be quite nasty.
That fairly well states the problem: “The Ego” and “The Success Story”.
Phony Christians (and unfortunately, many genuine ones) love the Big Story, the Big Testimony, the pithy little 5 minute nugget at the end of the sermon when the pastor lowers his big booming voice, gives the flock a meaningful look, and with a slight tremble in his voice and glisten in his eyes relates the Wonderful Story that causes the congregation to stream forward en mass weeping at the majesty of The Story and Their Own Great Big Wonderful Hearts that were touched by it. And then everyone streams out ready to take on the world, slapping pastor’s back (which he so humbly receives) and stroking his Monumental Ego and talking about the Great Move of God they just experienced.
I used to tell those stories before congregations as a guest speaker, sometimes before hundreds. I later found out some of them were just nonsense and myths. It’s such a fake way of experiencing the Lord. I am so done with it.
Hi Caitlin,
I’m so sorry to hear about your experience & its aftermath.
I think the jumpiness etc you describe is behavioural scars – a form of self-protection that is natural & normal, not sin. Any more than it is sin to have scars where a hit & run driver drove you down or for you to develop anti-bodies to an STD a cheating spouse gives someone.
I’m very leery of laying burdens on those who are recovering – this whole screwed up idea that we have some secret (or not so secret) sin somewhere which has caused the sins against us is rubbish, wrong simplistic & actually superstitious thinking. Making a huge burden out of forgiveness is just wrong, it is a part of what following Christ may mean, but not all of it.
I’m also leery of saying that just because someone else can do something – CTB forgiving the Nazi Guard- doesn’t mean we can all do it. There may well have been things that could have been done to her that she would have struggled with for life – being sexually assaulted could easily be this for many.
Really I just wanted to applaud you for tackling this at all, & for starting to draw lines of responsibility where they belong, with others. This is a huge deal for me too, always feeling more responsible than I am, allowing & enabling bad behaviour in others instead of holding them to account as fellow adults š
Just…be nice to yourself.
Deb wrote:
And ChEKA becomes OGPU which becomes NKVD which becomes KGB…
But the mass graves in the GULAG still keep getting filled without interruption.
(not going to be commenting much for the next few weeks. on vacation plus broke my wrist my first day in pittsburgh.)
Here’s a good article on forgiveness:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/maria-mayo/five-myths-about-forgiveness-in-the-bible_b_924286.html
Beakerj wrote:
I had a moment a few weeks ago where I was talking to my best friend and I told her, “You know, if you were the one telling me this story, I wouldn’t tell you the things I’m telling myself. I would be nicer to you. If you were a stranger I had never met I wouldn’t tell you the things I tell myself.”
@ JeffT:
Good article.
Shannon H. wrote:
Good point! It does an abuser no good to forgive him when he is not sincerely repentant and minimizes the seriousness of his behavior and mischaracterizes what actually happened.
I was watching an old Dr. Phil where he confronted a grandfather who sexually molested his six year old grandfather; the child told grandma but she tried to keep her quiet. The grandparents were both angry with their son and his wife for not forgiving them. Grandpa only did a year in prison and he wanted everyone to forgive and forget and resume contact.
Dr. Phil has having none if this man’s weasel words. “I didn’t know it was illegal… I thought she’d like it …. I’ve gotten away from God in recent years so Satan was able to get to me … I am a victim too … I don’t know what they want from me, I SAID I was sorry! … My granddaughter is lying about [one of the felonies], THAT never happened.”
Does anyone think that it would HELP that little girl to forgive her unrepentant grandfather or the grandmother who betrayed her? Not that I care two hoots about grandpa but if I did care about the state of his soul I would have to conclude that easy forgiveness is the very last thing he needs.
Ok, two things:
1) Regarding forgiveness, I was *tremendously helped” by the website “Luke173ministries.org,” which is specifically for “adult daughters of abusive parents.” However, the website would certainly be helpful for anyone who was told over and over again to “forgive” someone who is clearly manipulative and unrepentant. The author/pastor can be a little extreme at times, but if nothing else, the Biblical fellowship of someone who was abused, overcame, and gave sound Biblical arguments for *not* restoring fellowship with abusers was very comforting and helpful.
2) I’m a bit….angry right now, because a new friend of mine recently told a group of us that her husband was verbally, emotionally, and financially abusive. I can’t go into any more details without compromising both of our identities, but DADGUM, I was so angry at the response of one of our friends: “We need to decide right now that we’re not going to say anything bad about him, and that divorce is not an option.” Oh, bull-freaking-s##t!!!! Yes, this was a church group, and yes, the friend who said this is a Mark Driscoll fan. š And anything I say to the contrary is immediately labeled “feminist.” š This is a GOOD FRIEND, and I love her, and the person who’s being abused is a virtual stranger…but I was again reminded that, in the church, the burden is CONSTANTLY on the victim to justify her status as abused, while the abuser is given an automatic position of power by virtue of “we all have sin in our lives.” š Please pray for her, and pray for wisdom for me and my friend group as we try to help her. (Let’s call the victim Trisha just for ease. I’m all about pseudonyms, after all.) I’m honestly worried about Trisha’s safety, because the things she described about her husband sounded like he was a person on the verge of a serious mental breakdown. š
Here’s a link from Luke173, called “Forgiveness, not necessarily what you think,” along with a bunch of corresponding links on the left hand side: http://luke173ministries.org/466805
dee wrote:
One of the best descriptions of encouragement I’ve ever heard came, bizarrely, from Park Fiscal. Less bizarrely, he was quoting someone else at the time. I don’t know why he quoted it because it was obvious he didn’t understand it, but hey:
When a person is healed, immediately after some kind of prayer, of a terrible illness or injury the best medical science declares incurable, it’s very uncommon; it’s probably a miracle. When a person who has experienced horrendous abuse finds they are so completely free that to forgive their abuser (as completely distinct from “allow their abuser to re-abuse”), that too is very uncommon. In most cases it’s probably a miracle. That’s one reason I believe it is important for the church to pursue God for miracles. **** knows I haven’t got answers for Caitlin otherwise – all I’ve got is words.
Perhaps part of the problem you’ve touched on, Dee, is that we want miracles on the cheap. In other words, when I tell someone to “get over it” or “forgive them and move on” (I don’t, by the way, but let’s keep this in the first person)ā¦ I’m wanting to chalk up a victory for my wisdom, counselling ability, theology, prophetic insight, or some such. But I want that credit at no cost to myself: it’s up to the abused person to foot the whole bill. They get to do the suffering, and I get to be the overcomer. That probably won’t wash in eternity, though.
@ Daisy:
Actually, we need some rain further inland (where we are). My family has a condo at Atlantic Beach, and some friends are renting it this weekend. We just called them, and they’re staying! Praying the hurricane isn’t too bad. We’ve had much worse over the years.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Perhaps part of the problem youāve touched on, Dee, is that we want miracles on the cheap. In other words, when I tell someone to āget over itā or āforgive them and move onā (I donāt, by the way, but letās keep this in the first person)ā¦ Iām wanting to chalk up a victory for my wisdom, counselling ability, theology, prophetic insight, or some such. But I want that credit at no cost to myself: itās up to the abused person to foot the whole bill. They get to do the suffering, and I get to be the overcomer. That probably wonāt wash in eternity, though.
I’m now in awe of your wisdom/prophetic insight, etc. Because I think you touched on something awesome—the *true* motive behind victim-blaming. (especially in light of “sin leveling!) It’s easier to chalk up a victory w/ a victim than with an abuser. š
@ Taylor Joy:
I’ll be praying for your friend. So sorry for what she’s having to endure.
@Taylor Joy, thinking of ‘Trisha’. I have a friend in a similar situation. She has found material by Lundy Bancroft and Patricia Evans helpful. Also the comments in this article http://thehoopla.com.au/emotional-abuse-waiting-good-guy/
Taylor Joy wrote:
Nick, I agree with Taylor Joy – you really cut to the heart of the matter sometimes. Thanks for that…
Taylor Joy wrote:
In all blunt candor, I’d be very leery around anyone who’d say or think such a thing about an abused woman in the first place. And to start throwing labels at you: feminist. Your “good friend” sounds like the quintessential Driscoll fan, and I wouldn’t turn my back to her.
So according to BJU biblical counselors if something happens bad to you, you aren’t blameless because of the sin in your life? So in addition to an emotionally devastating circumstance that may have been caused by a person , you have to be shamed because of a theory a sin is the root cause of your circumstance? Let’s say you lost your only child due to a senseless turn of events. You are angry at the circumstance but also grieve the loss of your child. A counselor would be mor interested in how sin in your life caused the loss of your child as in helping you deal with the grief? If this is so, it would add one more stratum of abuse on top of a tragic circumstance. No nouthetic for me. I will visit a secular counselor.
@ dee:
Maybe you guys (The Deebs) should do a post on what forgiveness is and what it IS NOT. Contrast the extremes, from the Bible as an absolute jot-and-tittle ‘how to manual’ to the Ehrmanesque view of Scripture as no big deal. Then lay out a reasoned and common sense approach that navigates the reefs and shoals of both dangers.
@ Deb:
I hope you get the rain. We had a lot of rain here the last week, and about none this week.
I’ve lived in different states along the Gulf Coast over the years, so I’ve lived through a few hurricanes.
I do like fireworks, but I’m hoping for a bit of rain here to at least partially damper the Independence Day celebrations tomorrow.
The neighborhood I live in now the past few years, it seems like around 97% of the neighbors fire them off, and it’s very, very loud. It sounds like World War 3.
Folks start setting the fireworks off the day or two before July 4th, and go absolutely bonkers with it on the 4th itself, until the wee hours of the morning.
Making matters worse, I have a very old cat who lives outdoors (and sometimes in the garage), and the fireworks terrify him.
I usually put my pet cat in the garage all night with the garage door totally down to try to damper the firework sounds (I leave the windows partially open for air, though, or else it gets too hot in there).
I’ll be spending much of tomorrow (July 4th) popping in and out of the garage to calm my cat down. He’s a very sweet cat. I always feel bad for him on July 4th because the sounds scare him so, and hurt his ears.
Regarding some of the conversation about forgiveness.
One thing that helped me was learning and reading in various sources (some Christian, some not) that forgiving someone does not always entail reconciliation. You don’t have to be friends with the person after you forgive them.
That is, you can forgive someone but cut off all contact with them, if you choose. You don’t have to send them birthday cards, accept phone calls from them, meet them for lunch, write them letters, send them e-mails, or visit them at holidays.
I’ve read some therapists actually advise people that while it’s good for you to forgive (as it removes all ties from that person to you), if the person habitually hurts you, if you cannot count on them to stop abusing you, then for your own peace of mind and safety, you should cut them out of your life, or cut down contact.
You can forgive them, but that doesn’t mean you have to spend time with them or around them.
I’ve read a number of good thoughts here about this dysfunctional evil of blaming victims and shrugging off acts of predators. While I agree that gender issues, such as the misogyny that some of these folks espouse, and a protect the group mentality are involved, I’ve suspected something much more basic.
I think in a number of cases it’s about fear of the name brand being sullied and how that might affect the bottom line. I mean, if the sheep hear that a minor was molested on your site they might want to go elsewhere and that might affect the offering plate. Then you might not be able to pay for that big new building (all for the glory of God of course…cough, eye roll) and you might not be able to pay for the private school, the cute sports car, the lavish vacation etc etc…
Deb wrote:
I am bitterly disappointed at this bitter comment! lol I was on probation one time and we had to put out signs as we picked up litter on the side of the road, and the crew boss said he was going to change the sign to bitter crew instead of litter crew lol its my favorite thing to say now.
@ Mark:
The way you phrase it, that sounds similar to stuff I read about 12 step programs such as AA (Alcoholics Anonymous).
My brother went to AA meetings for many years. He’s into victim blaming as a result of stuff he learned at AA. I don’t talk to my brother often, but when or if I do, if I try sharing with him an experience where someone hurt me in some way, he asks me “what role did you play in that.” (He said asking this is a technique he learned in AA meetings.)
In other words, according to him and AA thinking, I must bear some blame in whatever bad thing transpired, even though I did not, the whole thing was unprovoked.
I thought his view was strange, so I looked up AA stuff online. I found many blogs and forums by ex-AA members who describe abuse in AA groups. Just like “biblical counseling” has a “blame the victim” mindset, these 12 step groups do as well.
Because AA members are on a first-name basis in their groups (you’re not supposed to tell other AA members your last name), and because judges are known to force rapists and killers to attend AA meetings – all sorts of regular AA members have been victimized. You can be sitting next to a rapist at an AA meeting and not even know it.
There are similarities between the church abuse I read about here on this blog and abuse I read about on those ex-AA groups.
Women have been raped by other AA members while leaving AA meetings, then there is something called “13 Stepping,” where women who show up new to AA meetings (who are often in an emotionally vulnerable place when they attend AA) have been taken advantage of sexually by other members.
One AA member lady’s son was murdered by a man she befriended at AA, IIRC – she was interviewed on an ex-AA member podcast about it.
One AA leader (this was on audio on You Tube at one point) was, during an AA meeting, mocking an eight year old girl who was angry that she had been raped. (He had heard about her story on his local news channel.)
At first, I thought that was really weird, but as I read more about them, they are into victim-blaming, so it started to make sense in its own warped way: from their view, that eight year old girl should admit that she played some kind of part in her attack and should own her anger feelings.
Her perfectly normal feelings get distorted by AA groups to be self pity and her shirking responsibility for her actions and life. š
I see similarities between this AA victim blaming stuff and some churches that are talked about on this blog, and the biblical counseling. Some people are just very bent on blaming people for stuff that is not their fault.
I listened to the video from bju guy. there is just so much wrong with what he said. first he sent a minor (teenager) to go to her step?dad and ask his forgiveness for her anger at his sexually assaulting her. what he did put the girl at huge risk, what if the stepdad didn’t want her talking and killed her? also the pastor didn’t call the police and have the guy arrested for sexually assaulting his step daughter, who was still a minor and probably under his care occasionally.
Jesus spoke of the Pharisees and them following the letter of the law and paul made the difference between the letter of the law that kills and the Spirit that gives life. when churches like this bju etc. make a formula of how to deal with sexual abuse they are indeed following the letter of the ‘new testament law’ and it kills. it kills physically when people commit suicide for having guilt and condemnation heaped upon them from being told it was their fault somehow. it kills spiritually because who would want to serve a God that made them and doesn’t mind a bit if they are abused as long as they don’t get bitter?!!! What kind of ‘God’ do they serve? They portray through their callous dead works and words a God that no one would want to serve, I suspect their members are those that are trying to live out absolution by subjecting themselves to constant condemnation and may believe that it says ‘God so hated the world…’ What is so very sad is that often people go to church to find Jesus and have the very question on their hearts already, ‘am I somehow responsible for this person raping me?’ I pray that the Real Jesus will show Himself in this wicked world and that He will comfort all the broken outcast that have been first hurt by the world and then by the ‘well meaning’ pastors and clergy that have only hurt them more.
deb-thanks for letting me vent on this topic, and thanks for the links to explain all the stuff.
Shannon H. wrote:
I have struggled with this issue for a long time, especially during a period of confronting and responding to spiritual abuse at our old church.
I don’t have any easy answers, just some thoughts and observations from my own reflection:
– I tend to agree with you – mostly. I was in a spiritually manipulative, abusive authoritarian context in which the pastors could, and did, do whatever they wanted. The usual result was that they screwed up and hurt people. Then they would apologize – sometimes sincerely, it seemed – and then the focus became whether or not we laypeople forgave them. It just felt so wrong and unfair – that a pastor could habitually harm us, and all he had to do was say, “I’m sorry” and that was it. So – I hear you. I feel like forgiveness and true repentance are (or should be, at least) intertwined somehow.
And yet…when I consider these things, often I get this nagging thought of Jesus pleading with the Father to forgive the very ones crucifying him (who were obviously not sorry or asking for forgiveness). I’m not sure how that fits in.
– I am not my own. I’ve been purchased, redeemed, and adopted into my Father’s family. He is the head of our family, and so any wrongs done to me are not mine to deal with – they are his. And all the wrongs that have been or ever will be done to me will eventually be accounted for, and justice will be done; either the perpetrator will repent and trust in Jesus’ sacrifice, or the perpetrator will not repent and will bear the penalty of his/her own sin. So for me, forgiveness has sort of become something like saying, “You have wronged me, and that is now between you and my Father, who also happens to be the Creator and King of the universe. I renounce my own rights to punish/penalize you, and I entrust them to my Father, who will one day hold you accountable.” In the end, I trust God to render a just verdict, and that helps me to “let it go” in the sense that I don’t have to be tempted to “render my own verdict” (i.e. slash tires, key cars…any way I might “get back” at the perp).
Anyway, no simply, easy answers, as I said. Sorry if this is just rambling. I hope it might be a little helpful.
I will pray for you tonight, Shannon – for God to give you whatever you need to continue healing from such a horrible crime. Someone very close to me went through a very, very similar experience – not just the initial crime, but the victim response (confusion, denial, excusing the perpetrator, etc.). It is a very difficult journey, and it does get better.
Off topic, bizarre, yet somehow relevant to those of us who come into contact with the spiritual world: http://news.sciencemag.org/brain-behavior/2014/07/people-would-rather-be-electrically-shocked-left-alone-their-thoughts
@ oldJohnJ:
Good article. Thanks for the link. One thing I noticed is that the response to the experiment was different between individuals, and the behavioral response especially was strikingly different between male and female. Don’t let the women’s lib people grab that statistic!
A big thank you to Cindy K for telling us about the ICSA Conference. The sessions we attended were incredibly helpful and hope-filled. Wisdom certainly raised her voice in Silver Spring yesterday, it was a privilege to be there.
@ Marsha:
If God’s forgiveness treated us just as if we never sinned, then why doesn’t he restore our world for us right now just like it was before our fall. I do not believe that unrepentant people will be in heaven, that would make it not heaven anymore. I think we know we have forgiven when we do not want to see the perps treated according to their sins meaning having the same thing done to them. When you live with the memories it’s like having it happen over and over again. I do not wish for my rapist to be raped over and over again. I just want to hear him confess and say that he is sorry, even though it happened 38 years ago.
Does anyone think that we have to be friends with everyone in heaven?
@ Muff Potter:
The thing is “the bible” does not say what some tyrannical would be psycho-babble poorly educated control driven mean spirited people in “leadership” (everybody bow) want to say it says/means/implies/requires. And, yes, today it takes some reading of some actual theologians to see that. That ought not be the case. So Ehrman comes along, from a fundy background, and ends up agnostic because once he delved into the issues he could not deal with it and still be a believer. He has come to the logical conclusion from his starting point. This is sad. If the alternatives are; be a fundy or be an agnostic or make up your own belief system as you go along–mercy help us.
But look at the article oldjohnj linked, and ask whether people really want to think, even for short periods of time under controlled circumstances and about a topic of their own choosing. Some prefer electrical shocks.
@ Mr.H:
Yes. When I have been faced with the necessity to forgive, I have come to the same conclusions. I have not been manipulated (surprise?) but I have been sinned against in ways that enacted terrible difficulties for me and mine. And of course have sinned against others and against God. That said, whether I have had to forgive them and/or forgive myself, the approach of walk away from it and leave it to God works, and that is what seems consistent with scripture. It is difficult to reconcile that with the reality that God ultimately judges everything, because I do not think he will let me advise him as to what judgment to make. Therefore, it really does not matter ultimately how I feel about it, it only ultimately matters that he is God and I am not. None the less, that is the reality I see. And in that there is freedom. It may not be the kind of freedom some people think is fair, but it is freedom.
The whole emphasis on the victim having to ‘forgive’ is actually victim-blaming. It detracts from the perpetrator and his crimes and puts the spotlight firmly back onto the victim. Who is usually a child or a woman. So yes, it’s misogyny. It is a recorded characteristic of SGM – see the countless testimonies over on SGM Survivors where victims of sexual abuse and their families were forced or ‘given the opportunity’ to forgive while at the same time the crimes went unreported, covered-up, and the perpetrators given support and rehabilitation. (Or in the case of Morales, allowed to go off and abuse scores of other children).
We have seen the attitude in a more moderate form elsewhere. For example, the Gospel Coalition official statement in support of C.J. Mahaney put a lot of emphasis on blaming victims who had posted their stories on websites, These people were accused of being on a witchhunt for Mahaney with a ‘Javert-like obsession’. The message being: these guys should shut up, and if there was any harm done to them, they should forgive. See how it was all turned around to make Mahaney the victim? Sickening.
I understand that both forgiving and understanding what forgiving is could probably take up three lifetimes. God didn’t just forgive us, He went through suffering and death to make that possible.
Here’s what I started thinking overnight.
People seem to want to think in this manner:…So we commit a sin, it creates “bad” in the world. That bad has to go somewhere. Sometimes it hits us, sometimes it hits others, sometimes both. The “bad” is the cost of the sin, basically. And right now I’m paying it for someone else. And that doesn’t seem fair. It doesn’t seem fair at all and it really doesn’t fit into the legalistic worldview. So I MUST have done something wrong. In my case, the guy assaulted me from behind, when I wasn’t looking… and I was wearing t-shirt and jeans and I was on a school trip, in the company of (female!) adults… Well… none of those things are jumping out as bad, so it MUST be that I am harboring a lot of the b-word and need to forgive.
But what does that mean, really? If I forgive this guy, wholly and completely, does that mean that the sin no longer happened? When I stand before God and say “Father, I did these things” as far as He is concerned, so such thing happened at all, it is as if they never happened. BUT God’s overwhelming forgiveness does NOT mean that I don’t have to deal with the fallout. And if God’s forgiveness doesn’t eliminate the fallout, how on earth could my forgiveness do that?
…That doesn’t answer what forgiveness is or how we’re supposed to go about it, but it at least gives me an answer towards one of my original questions (I thought I had forgiven this person, but I’m still experiencing a lot of pain, does that mean I did a bad job?- NO).
I was listening to the Bob Jones speaker. The young lady was molested by her step father and she has to go to him and ask for his forgiveness for her anger towards him? Because her anger is a sin? Is righteous anger a sin? And isn’t it misplaced to ask for forgiveness from the abuser rather than turning it over to God because it is unexplainable. It also depends on what causes righteous indignation. For me rape and molestation provoke righteous indignation as does mass murder. And where is the nature of God that begs us to separate ourselves from unrepentant sinners who have done the unmentionable? What of evil, which in my understanding God abhors? Should victims of a terrorist attack go to a terrorist and ask for the terrorists forgiveness for the righteous anger and hurt he or she feels towards the attack? Should a victim whose loved ones have experienced genocide in Rwanda ask the perpetrators for forgiveness for the victim’s feeling anger for the loss of loved ones? Evil does exist, and while I agree it is counter productive to dwell on evil acts others unrepentantly may have perpetrated in our lives, wouldn’t it be just as Christian to turn it all over to God, with the explanation “I don’t understand?” And in all of this, what of justice for the victim?
Daisy wrote:
Someone started up with the fireworks last night around 10 pm and frightened the one cat who was upstairs with me. I’m not looking forward to today, more fireworks, including the show by the nearby megachurch.
You know a church that spends a lot of effort and money celebrating the government (i.e., worshiping it) does not worship the God of the Bible. It is a form of idolatry. I will not attend a church that has a U.S. flag in the sanctuary, because it ceases to be a sanctuary.
An Attorney wrote:
That’s hard to do here in Texas……
Jeannette Altes wrote:
It is a deeply entrenched mentality. My very liberal, generally feminist (she participated in successfully over turning several sexist corporate policies when working for General Mills in the early 70s, no less) mother has this mentality. A school I taught at had a bad incident in which a 28 year old male teacher was fired and prosecuted for making sexual advances toward a 14 year old female student. My mother’s response: “”Yeah, but do you think maybe she flirted with him and kind of encouraged it?” I think that our society has made this the gut reaction, particularly when the victim is female. In part because of the firmly entrenched belief that men/boys are supposed to be sexually aggressive and women/girls be the gatekeepers of sexual morality. A woman or girl who is victimized has failed to do her job and hold the line, after all. I don’t know how we change that perception.
@ K.D.:
And I live in Texas. And I am very patriotic, listening this morning to such things as “The Stars and Stripes Forever”, and when I do, I tear up a bit. But the two things belong to different spheres of life and when I go to worship, the focus is on God and God alone, and not on my country. The symbols of respect and love for country do not belong in a place where we worship God, regardless of how deep our love for our country is.
An Attorney wrote:
You are absolutely right…..and find a church without a US Flag on the podium in Texas? Good luck….and people in a, well SBC Church, just don’t get it….it’s like they now think God is Republican and we need a flag to show this fact….once again, I do not get it….
Caitlin wrote:
The above is what I was thinking yesterday as this discussion was ongoing. You can forgive a person for their harmful action, but it doesn’t mean that all your post trauma experiences will cease, immediately or later. BUT, to be sure, the pain you still experience does not mean you are bitter or unforgiving. This is where most people misspeak and add insult to the already injured. They don’t understand how the mind and body work and how we can continue to be effected by a traumatic experience. Yes, we can get better and heal. It just isn’t in someone else’s expected time frame that this occurs. I wish most religious leaders/counselors would stop delving into these issues with their whipped-out-and-magical bible verses. It’s not helpful.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
Makes about as much sense as a man showing off his Rolex watch at a party is asking to be robbed. Or a man walking down the street at 1 a.m. is asking to be mugged.
Mark wrote:
Who sinned, this man or his father, that he was born blind?
ar wrote:
This is a perfectly valid question. In fact, once we start censoring questions, we will be helping to create an environment where abuse can flourish. The thing is, the answer to this particular question is, “it doesn’t matter“. The girl could walk naked into his office and attack him, and he would still have the responsibility to prevent sexual misconduct. Always. Period. Questions like this need to be asked precisely so we can point out the answer – publicly and frequently.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Agreed!
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Precisely.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I agree that these questions must never become no-go areas, but a girl walking naked into a teacher’s office and attacking him would be sexual misconduct and he would have absolutely no responsibility for it. Indeed, though not on a par with rape, it is a form of sexual assault and should be prosecutable, depending on her age. Of course (and I suspect this was your point), what he does next is his responsibility.
The actual case of a student walking naked into a teacher’s office is – I suspect – extremely rare. But we’ve heard, from regulars on this very blog who are or have been college professors, stories of female students overtly engaging in less extreme forms of this behaviour. The fact that it does not excuse even consensual sex, let alone rape, and is far less serious than rape, doesn’t make it right.
Daisy wrote:
As someone whose family gained a lot from AA, I don’t have a problem with that question per se, as long as ‘nothing whatsoever’ is a possible answer. And it can be very different looking at various ways an addict has suffered, sometimes they are (ridiculously) unaware that they have played a part in creating a situation that is very difficult/destructive for them. This is never the case for a child victim of abuse, never.
@ Victorious:
Hmm…when I was growing up, the burden fell on the victim to prove she didn’t ask for it. It took an exceptionally strong and brave woman to report rape and see it through to trial an conviction. This mentality still lurks under the surface, I think. It may not be as blatant as it was when I was young, but it still lurks….and the message that this sends to a female child who has/is being molested….again, it is no wonder it is the most under-reported crime….
That said, the last place this type of mentality should be found is within the Church – and yet that is the one place that seems to want to hold onto it. Sigh.
I think someone (wither on this or a previous thread – maybe Bunsen?) mentioned that part of the problem is not wanting to deal with the prolonged process of walking someone through healing from these kinds of attacks – they want the victim to ‘get over it’, i.e., do all the work, while they take credit for ‘counseling’ them. I also think that it is extremely difficult for people to want to look at and admit that this kind of evil exists next door to them and they couldn’t ‘see’ it. I think it scares them that they cannot recognize that evil in their midst, so it is psychologically easier to blame the victim….minimize, sweep under the rug and forget……And the victims caught in this dynamic will often try to do the same….but the pain and damage from these things never stays hidden and forgotten – it comes out sideways in different ways and will not be quiet until it is looked at and acknowledged. And the victim who does that (especially years later) is again castigated for ‘holding on’ to their pain. This is a no-win for the victim, so for me, I will do what I need to do to get well (or as well as I can get) and everyone who does not like that can bugger off.
As to the forgiveness issue, there have been a lot of good things said in this thread. I would just add that forgiveness is not something that can be flipped on and off like a switch. It can be a process that takes time, and as has been mentioned, does not require any further contact with the perpetrator. I would take it as far as saying that even if the perpetrator genuinely repented, forgiveness does not require renewed contact and the perpetrator that is truly repentant will understand that. I have said this before on other threads, but it bears repeating: If the perpetrator’s ‘repentance’ comes with a demand for forgiveness and/or reconciliation, it is not true repentance. True repentance demands nothing and understands it deserves nothing.
@ ar: There is a pretty unfair lose/lose situation with this, even in the context of consensual sex. Some men believe that girls should put out and not be ‘frigid’ but when they do they’re then seen as whores deserving of less respect. I saw in the papers today a story of a British girl in Magaluf who performed sex acts on 24 men for a drink, although what she was promised was a vacation. It raised the concern about women being pressured to take part in such games but then being taped and humiliated for giving in! No doubt some of the 24 men who participated feel that what she did was wrong, even though they were more than happy to play their part. It’s sickening.
Goodness I was expecting that comment to have landed in moderation mode.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
Oh, I agree Jeanette. When we were training volunteers how to respond to sexual assault victims in the ER, we knew the victim might be blamed for what she wore, where she was (i.e. a bar), and what time she was out. We prepared the volunteers that even other women would blame the victim. But we reasoned that often it was an effort on their part to deny it would ever happen to them; i.e. if they didn’t dress that way, or wear those big dangling earrings, or go to a man’s apartment with him, then they wouldn’t be raped.
In doing awareness sessions in high schools, we asked the class (both boys and girls) if there was ever a reason to justify sexual assault. The overwhelming answer was, “NO!” However, when we asked, “how about if you paid for her dinner?” A few boys were honest in saying that that might be different. In other words, they felt she owed him something. We asked, “how about if she’s dancing very close to you and her body seems to be caressing yours?” Then a few more boys were very vocal in saying that they were certain under that circumstance that she was “asking for it.” When we asked them whether or not it was possible that she just wanted closeness and was expressing her feelings of warmth and how much she liked you, then they thought they might have read a signal that wasn’t a signal with the intent they perceived.
It was a tedious effort to make the boys rethink their right of entitlement by forcing sex on a girl.
And unfortunately, some 20 yrs. later, not much has changed.
I’m reading all this about forgiveness. The Deebs should be telling my story. A good chunk deals with forgiveness and how its linked to repentance. In my case I contacted nearly everyone I had a substantial interaction with and asked if I hurt them. If I did I worked it out with them…person by person. I did it in a way that was risky because I offered to travel around the country in a few cases and ask for forgiveness in person. In the end I was forgiven by 137 people. But the Deebs need to tell it. I have been sitting on it for 14 months, I want to get it off my chest and move on.
@ Jeannette Altes:
[Mod:Edit}… if you have time, here’s a link to a short “Was He Asking For It?” scenario of questions directed to a man similar to the ones a rape victim encounters on the witness stand in a sexual assault trial.
http://www.sascwr.org/files/www/resources_pdfs/legal/Was_he_asking_for_it.pdf
@ Jeannette Altes:
two comments to you in moderation… hope you can read them soon.
@ Victorious:
I will watch for them. š
@ Adam Borsay:
@ Adam Borsay:
Ty soooo much for sharing your story here. That meant a lot. What you just wrote sounds much more genuine than your points about forgiveness and Corrie ten Boom. Thank you for opening your heart up to us here. Apologies for the delay in the reply. I’m on vacation with limited Internet access.
@ Beakerj:
Amen to your last sentence! !!
@ Eagle:
Very much looking forward to hearing your story…. from a secret fan of yours. Lol
Nancy wrote:
That’s what I’ve been thinking, too, Nancy…..The Jewish thinking on this is so different, that I’m not at all sure that it isn’t presumptuous of us to be telling people who are hurting, to “forgive, forgive” when we aren’t sure what that means.
It’s like saying, “Stop limping” after running over somebody’s foot.
Daisy wrote:
Yeah, really. (I could say what I think of a father who can’t be in the same house while his daughter takes a bath without attacking her, but I don’t think the Deebs would appreciate the largish pic of Zooey blasting Demonic-Daddy with the 12 gauge…all the blood & gore).
Beakerj wrote:
Agreed.
But I also have another problem with the comparison to Corrie because she was forgiving that guard for what he had done to HER. She wasn’t declaring him “not guilty” of every horrible thing he ever did to anybody; she can’t do that; she;s not God, she’s one person dealing with a specific sin gainst her personally. It’s her life, this is how she’s dealt with it. It’s descriptive, NOT prescriptive.
And right here, I have to stand up & say out loud something about *my* life: My parents were killed by a drunk driver when I was a small child; I nearly died, in fact I was pronounced dead at one point…..
Years later, as a young adult, the man who had been driving made overtures to family members about meeting me & asking me to forgive him for killing my parents. I said, “I have no interest in meeting him; I honestly wouldn’t trust what I might say or do, & I CAN”T forgive him because he didn’t kill ME; he killed Mom & Dad. If he wants to go to the graveyard & ask them to forgive him, he’s welcome to do so, but I won’t be there”. It would have been different forgiving him for what he did to me, but I simply don’t have the capacity to forgive killing another human being; that is between the killer & the victim. This is, according to my understanding, why Judaism sees murder as the one unforgiveable sin: Only the victim of a crime can forgive a crime.
So I do kinda have a dog in this particular fight.
zooey111 wrote:
I think we often take secular thinking, mix it with something in scripture and then tell people that the secular thinking is a religious mandate. Then religious minded people may think that they have to do something which is not working for them or is harmful to them because somehow that is what “the bible says” or God demands. And then people beat up on the victim or sick person or whatever, and the victim or sick person beats up on themselves. And the bible gets a bad rep. And the secular thinking is elevated to divine status. All the while, this may not be true at all. It may be a case of poor exegesis, mean spiritedness, sloppy thinking, and gullibility.
Taylor Joy wrote:
Prayers.
zooey111 wrote:
Part 1
Bless you. That can’t be easy. In my case it was also parents, with one dead (it was never determined whether it was an accident or by intent) and the other parent who caused and/or let happen the circumstances she could not deal with. As I understand it, whatever it was between them (and I know what it was) is not mine to forgive. But I had the necessity to forgive my father (and my mother) for the pain he/they caused me. My opportunity to forgive and my necessity to forgive was limited to that. If, of course, that first century Jewish rabbi was speaking according to the religion he practiced, and if I understand that viewpoint adequately for this circumstance.
However if, poor thing, we know better now and it is a pity He did not, but why should be let our religious thinking be hampered by first century thinking even if it was Jesus and even if it would be better for us and even if it would free us from certain religious bullies and even ifā¦
These theologians from Ehrman who declares himself agnostic to Wright who is decidedly conservative are correct in their emphasis that we must understand the scriptures in light of what was actually being said and what did it mean at that time and to whom was it said. Only then can we say, alright what do we do now.
This does not abrogate the necessity to “do justice.” It does not mean that one should not get civil authorities involved, expose evil as needed, defend the defenseless and such. Bill Gothard distorted the idea of what it means to take up the offense of another. He carried it to the extreme. What I must do about something is one thing. How I feel about that is another thing. And whom I am required to forgive, and under what circumstances, and for what is yet another.
(continued)
@ Nancy:
Part 2
There is nothing wrong with mental health research at the university. We need it. It just does not rise to the level of divine mandate. We should use what is helpful and omit what does not work, secularly speaking, because this is at the heart of “how to treat the patient” but we should not confuse the two. The psychiatrist does not say “I am saying and therefore God is saying.” Neither should we. Unfortunately we have religious leaders who seem to be saying something like that in various areas. We know they are wrong, by the very fact that they do not agree with each other. That ought to be a great “duh” to us.
I believe in what Jesus said, on whatever topic, though I never understand it as well as I one day will, if I read Paul correctly about looking through a glass darkly. I get it about the practice of medicine, including mental health, to the extent that medicine is an art as well as a science, and those of us who do/did it are hugely aware of what we do not know, do not know, do not know. My point is, we must not confuse the secular and the religious. Each has something to say to humanity.
Another thing is this:There is something to be said for demanding justice. Not to gom out & burn down the town, but to stand up & say, “This was wrong, in fact is was a crime, & I am going to make sure that the law gets involved.”
That’s what drives me insane, these people saying, “Oh, he’s so sorry, & I know that because he says so”. Well. Yes, but why is this person so sorry? A lot of people are “sorry” when they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar (or the offering plate). But it’s no help to them to accept that & paste on a big phony glued on smile. Saying “sorry” & actually being sorry are 2 different things. (Someone forgot to tell James Dobson that before he interviewed Ted Bundy; JD accepted that as the real thing, because he clearly doesn’t know a sociopath from an antimacassar…. ).
I actually came back again to say that if anyone has missed reading Simon Wiesenthal’s “The Sunflower”, there is more to chew on about the whole topic of forgiveness in that little book than most anything I have read.
And a whole lot of people, of many religions & of no religion, give their thoughts, commenting on SW’s story.
Nancy wrote:
This is so beautifully stated and one of the few things written about forgiving the unforgivable that makes sense to me.
I’m always repelled by perpetrators of any type crime who ask victims for forgiveness. The only correct thing is to say, “I’m sorry” and truly mean it.
When you have already taken so much from someone, robbed them of all or some part of their life, it is just wrong, wrong, wrong to ask for anything from your victims.
@ Howl:
Yes. Confess, repent, atone. Do not ask forgiveness.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Al’lah’u Akbar optional?
(Because this sounds like the most Extreme versions of Islam you find today.)
And note that al-Jazeera — a MUSLIM news service — was struck by BJU’s misogyny and rape victim-blaming.
zooey111 wrote:
I have seen an abuser turn the remorse (i.e. he’s so sorry, so TRULY sorry) on and off like a light switch.
Mark wrote:
No, because he’s a MAN and she’s just a WOMAN.
May wrote:
Didn’t somebody on this site reference a study that one of the most sure signs of a sociopath is how they can make everyone feel sorry for them the poor poor victim?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I am so glad you are home safely. I am so sorry about your broken wrist. What a trip!