One of the churches I went to as a teenager did something along these lines to me during one service. To this day I can't stand to have someone lay hands on me when they ask to pray for me. It's like they read "This Present Darkness" and didn't get that it's fiction.

I remember when deliverance ministry became a focus for a large segment of the church; well-intentioned and sincere, but I think much of both the teaching and practice seemed questionable. I witnessed one incident, without doubt, when I observed a demon cast out of an individual. The person was a non-believer who immediately repented and called on Christ’s name after the demon was cast out. In addition to the immediate spiritual transformation there was an incredible transformation in the person’s affect-physically, her appearance was transformed.

There was no questioning of the demon, no ‘trial’, it actually was fairly low-key and seemed very natural–dare I say biblical?

I just read a fascinating article last night on the Huffington Post about the ‘shadow side’ of mindfulness meditation, which is based on eastern forms. Some of the descriptions I read of people who have been seriously messed up by this almost sound like actual cases of demon oppression. When you’ve got a voice in your head telling you to kill yourself combined with a feeling that *something* else has taken over your body and mind, that sounds like a possible situation for prayer for demonic deliverance. I’m not entirely sure that such prayer is the same thing as what most people think of as “exorcism” though.

I would be concerned about any methods of dealing with this that appear to be more influenced by TV, Hollywood, and books than the New Testament.

That song was truly disturbing.

On another note, the notion that there is a Christian school someone intentionally named “Corban” seems really odd to me. I kind of get what they might have been meaning to convey, but the truth is that Jesus did not speak well of the practice of Corban. At most he was indifferent, but I think there is some actual criticism underlying his comments to the Pharisees about it all in Mark 7.

Have you guys read Peretti’s “The Visitation?” I re-read it recently, and it seems like a long, involved textbook-case of recovering from spiritual abuse. (It has some damaging stereotypes in there, but looking at the big picture, it is very, very healing.) I’m 99% certain that Peretti had some deep awakening about what type of damage the (c)hurch was doing–and this book was published 15 years ago.

Regarding the two “Darkness” books–I got saved reading them. I’m a writer myself, and “Piercing” described salvation in a way that made sense, as opposed to the endless rules of the SBC churches I’d grown up in. Those books encouraged me to be a student of the Bible, and I was able to absorb the Bible deeply–then truly, authoritatively, tell legalistic teachers when they were full of cr@p. <3

OK – so I read the Mars Hill official document on spiritual warfare (how demon trials are conducted, which a woman who had been through it said Mark Driscoll actually called it an exorcism). This part is just creepy. It’s what the participant has to ask themselves before the trial/ exorcism:

Please read Galatians 5:19–21 and list each thing that has been a besetting and/or habitual sin for you.
Please read Colossians 3:5–8 and list each thing that has been a besetting and/or habitual sin for you.
Please read Mark 7:21–23 and list each thing that has been a besetting and/or habitual sin for you.
Please consider the following list and list each thing that has been besetting and/or habitual for you: bestiality, habitual lying, physically unhealthy, masturbation, lying, pornography, ongoing depression, suicidal thoughts, alcohol abuse, drug use, anger, blasphemy, violence, self-inflicted injury, rape, incest, eating disorders, mental illness, pedophilia, and anything else that comes to mind.
Please consider the following list of sins that may have been committed against you or by you: rape, incest, molestation, other forms of abuse (e.g., physical, sexual, mental, emotional), as well as anything else that comes to mind.
Please briefly explain any involvement you may have had with the occult, witchcraft, or anything spiritual other than orthodox biblical Christianity.
Please briefly list any of your ancestors and any activity they may have been involved in with the occult, witchcraft, other religions, drug use, alcohol abuse, sexual deviancy, rape, incest, mental illness, and anything else listed above or that comes to mind.
Please briefly describe your sleeping patterns, including any inability to sleep and ongoing nightmares or disturbances.
Please briefly list any paranormal/supernatural experiences you have had.
Please briefly list any voices you hear and what they generally speak to you in the exact words that you hear or think.
Please briefly list the main two or three things that you would like resolved immediately.
Please read 1 John 4 slowly and pray each part that strikes you, honestly speaking with God about the things His Holy Spirit brings to mind.
Please name the godly person you want to join us.

Beakerj wrote:

I practise mindfulness meditation, where you bring your concentration onto simple things in the here & now.

Focus is important in prayer. The old timers used to use the term “getting on praying ground.” Their methodology was different, which meant pray about everything until you were “all prayed up” and this was a means of dealing with distractions as well as in keeping with what the bible says about the effectual prayer of a righteous man (confess all sins in the process.) The point is, at the place of being on praying ground one can focus on God, not self, and that is a good thing.

About DIY protestant attempts at exorcism, I wonder if “deliver us from evil” and the occasional need to verbally resist/rebuke evil, using the paradigm of evil as actual evil personality, beyond that I agree with the catholics to leave it to the professionals. No need to try to do surgery on the kitchen table (metaphorically), regardless of the hype that seems to think such might be possible.

Circus attraction, anyone?

Oooooh, this reminds me of what we referred to as “The Summer everyone went crazy” within my college Christian group. Demons were cast out and another student prophesied that her boyfriend would marry another student. (Which he did, but…)

I was raised with a healthy skepticism and was not exactly convinced.

I’ve taken several classes on Spiritual Warfare, Deliverance Ministry, and have been trained by people with PhD s in Religious Studies and their thesis was specifically on Spiritual Warfare.

Having said all of that, this “Demon Trial” stuff it the weirdest, most kooky thing I’ve ever seen when it comes to this, and trust me I’ve run into some weird things people do. It’s like a strange mixture of pagan protection rituals, catholic exorcism, and really poor psychology. How does Mark even come up with this stuff?

Realistically, I DO believe that there are demonic forces. I think they look a lot more like “institutional racism” or “misogyny” or “endemic poverty” and a lot less like “Focusing on this one random guy”

Taking Down Demon Names – who made that one up? Tim provides a link to a post written by Dr. Warren Throckmorton over on the Patheos website. In that post, Throckmorton writes:

You too can read about the procedure to conduct a demon trial on the Mars Hill website (how long will this remain on the site?). It is also a note on Mark Driscoll’s Facebook page. It is too long to reproduce here (go read it while it is still up, but if they take it down I will post a copy)

Calling up and binding Demons?
“Just like Sorcery, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

I remember when deliverance ministry became a focus for a large segment of the church; well-intentioned and sincere, but I think much of both the teaching and practice seemed questionable.

All too often, they ended up like the Witchfinders-General of the Thirty Years’ War, smelling out DEMONS under every bed.

“When all you have is a Deliverance Ministry Hammer,
EVERYTHING looks like a DEMON.”

Caitlin wrote:

another student prophesied that her boyfriend would marry another student. (Which he did, but…)

Does that fall into the category “Self-fulfilling prophecy”? 😉

Okay, I was going to avoid this topic…..I hope this doesn’t give away who I am….I doubt anyone I actually know reads this blog…
I served for a while in far South Texas, Northern Mexico as a missionary. I have seen actual demon possession. It is the scariest thing I have ever seen, or have been involved in…..in my life. I have seen things that literally will haunt you for life….
People who are sick, people who have been raped, people who are mentally ill are not demon possessed.
This ” there is something wrong with you, so you’re demon possessed ” is the biggest baloney I’ve ever heard. This is nothing more than more ” control” over the congregants….

NJ wrote:

When you’ve got a voice in your head telling you to kill yourself combined with a feeling that *something* else has taken over your body and mind, that sounds like a possible situation for prayer for demonic deliverance

Sounds like my depression. sorry, no demons involved, just biochemistry.

K.D. wrote:

People who are sick, people who have been raped, people who are mentally ill are not demon possessed.
This ” there is something wrong with you, so you’re demon possessed ” is the biggest baloney I’ve ever heard. This is nothing more than more ” control” over the congregants….

One of my writing partners told me about a Spiritual Warfare type he knew in Colorado who WAS heavily into “It’s All DEEEEMONS!” To the point that if a light bulb burned out, instead of changing the bulb he was liable to take out his Bible and start Rebuking the DEMON of Burned-Out Lightbulbs. (As far as I can tell, he wasn’t making that one up.)

Well, Mister Mighty Spiritual Warfare was discerning and casting out DEMON after DEMON after DEMON left and right, even setting himself up as a Spiritual Warfare Counselor — binding and casting out DEMON after DEMON after DEMONS (multiple).

Until the day he ran into a REAL case of possession.
Can you say “Seven Sons of Sceva”?

I was going to comment on the irony of “Corban”, but several of you have beaten me to it.

@ May:

Please consider the following list and list each thing that has been besetting and/or habitual for you: bestiality, habitual lying, physically unhealthy, masturbation, lying, pornography, ongoing depression, suicidal thoughts, alcohol abuse, drug use, anger, blasphemy, violence, self-inflicted injury, rape, incest, eating disorders, mental illness, pedophilia, and anything else that comes to mind.

Rape and pedophilia? I think a criminal trial would be a much better way to remedy those behaviors than a demon trial.

Please consider the following list of sins that may have been committed against you or by you: rape, incest, molestation, other forms of abuse (e.g., physical, sexual, mental, emotional), as well as anything else that comes to mind.

So now we can become demon possessed because another person, essentially, sinned “on” us or “at” us? ?!?!?!

Please briefly explain any involvement you may have had with the occult, witchcraft, or anything spiritual other than orthodox biblical Christianity.

Okay, this could be valid, but who’s calling the shots on what qualifies as “occult”? Does reading Harry Potter or GoT count?

Please briefly list any of your ancestors and any activity they may have been involved in with the occult, witchcraft, other religions, drug use, alcohol abuse, sexual deviancy, rape, incest, mental illness, and anything else listed above or that comes to mind.

How is any of this relevant unless we believe in generational blessings and curses? Also, I once told someone that no women have died in childbirth, and almost no children have died young, in my family for the past 200+ years, and they asked in all seriousness if someone in my family had prayed down generational blessings upon us back in the 1700s. That was pretty funny.

Please briefly describe your sleeping patterns, including any inability to sleep and ongoing nightmares or disturbances.

Maybe could be relevant, but only after seeing a doctor. Also maybe checking to see if you have sleep apnea.

Please briefly list any voices you hear and what they generally speak to you in the exact words that you hear or think.

Once again, have we already tried a diagnosis of schizophrenia and meds?

Dee/Deb, could you please remove my post at 10:55…. I should have just left it alone….

@ Taylor Joy:
I also want to add that not everybody needs to go through major deliverance ministry that involves demonic manifestation. Like I mentioned molestation earlier. Not everyone molested has demons in them. Nor do I think demons have to enter into us via some arbitrary sin we committed. These are simply things that I’ve read about AND seen first hand. They are not the rule, more like the exception.

The overwhelming majority of the time people can find healing to oppression via personal relationship with God, no need for a big hoopla. Which is why I love the book I recommended to you so much as that is what it emphasizes on.

I tried to find the update to the John McArthur story about a remarkable email but couldn’t find it from the link above in the little box. Can you tell me how to access it?

Thanks

Tim Fall wrote:

It doesn’t take elaborate trials. It doesn’t take a 12 step protocol for identifying demons by name, binding them up, casting them into pits, and dredging up a person’s ancestral sins (whatever that means).

It takes Jesus, who nailed Satan’s powers to the cross, gives us the ability to resist Satan, and sends him fleeing from us.

Mr. Driscoll’s teachings are just made up nonsense.

Amen.

@ Hester:

Excellent rebuttal to the wackiness (and downright scariness) of those points!

What I don’t understand is, why is a seminary joining up with this crackpot cult?

Funny story follows that illustrates a point: about my own bout with a mental issue. It was not funny at the time.

Once upon a time when I was a senior student nurse we were on a rotation at a large state psychiatric hospital. I had the issue to deal with of what to do next after our imminent graduation: get a job, go back to the university and take up where I left off, get married, go to seminary for the requisite year of training and then apply to the mission board, some combination of the above. Big issue. So I established a plan of prayer and fasting (nothing outlandish) and proceeded to do just that.

Remember that I said state psychiatric hospital.

Now we know, and I knew then but did not know what to do with it, that I was born to throw my life into medical diagnosis of some sort. Eventually diagnostic radiology, but that was not the issue then. None the less, I instinctively think in diagnostic terms (a lot of people do), and the first thing one does after gathering a reasonable amount of information, is establish a differential diagnosis. That is a list of things which something might be, as nearly in descending order of probability as possible. That then leads either to treatment or to further focused information gathering to resolve the question of what is going on here. Thumbnail sketch of the process.

So, in the middle of this scene, and quite unexpectedly and without fanfare or hoodoo, while praying I noticed that I had apparently lost my mind Now we call it a prayer language. Then we just panicked and wet our pants or something. Anyhow, I immediately came up with an obvious differential diagnosis: acute onset of some hitherto unknown psychosis, possibly a form of schizophrenia; some infectious agent such as a virus which could be causing mental illness in this psychiatric hospital and which illness I had contracted; demonic influence because though there was no proof that demons caused mental illness neither was there proof that they did not. Rule out the possibility that it did not really happen and I was just too tired.

Had there been some crackpot charlatan doing exorcisms I well may have lined up for the procedure at that point, since obviously there was no mainstream medical information to help me. Somebody said that people in certain situations will turn to most anything, sure enough. Absolutely, and the situation does not have to be all that dramatic.

What I actually did do is decide that I could control the symptoms and maybe nobody would be the wiser for it and I could continue with my life plans. And so I did. Diagnosis: crazy, not otherwise specified. Treatment: symptomatic.

Does MD believe that a Christian can be demon possessed? (Because they can’t be.) Or is this just about oppression? Why all the rigmarole? Why not just pray? Isn’t a prayer good enough? Someone has suggested elsewhere it’s a way to get information on the person to control them.

I’m afraid what’s going on at MH is going to result in someone trying suicide.

@ K.D.:

I haven’t encountered a demon-possessed person, and have only once encountered anything I could confidently describe as a demonic presence – that was about 25 years ago when I’d not long been a Christian. It was an extreme sense of oppression and fear that was unmistakably in the room, both qualitatively and quantitatively different from just having the creeps while walking through a creaky forest in a remote Scottish glen in the middle of the night where you’re the only person for miles.

Also different was the fact that after a very short period of rebuking it and declaring Jesus’ kingship, it vanished much more suddenly than it arrived, leaving absolutely no trace for the rest of the night (nor ever since). I have occasionally tried rebuking an attack of the creeps (which, I repeat, never feel remotely the same as the incident I just described). That has never worked: not surprisingly, because “having the creeps” is really just a slightly childish state of mind and there is little biblical evidence that you can “cast out” immaturity..! I’m often reminded of a useful bit of teaching I heard a while back, which was (in summary) that you can’t exorcise what isn’t actually a spiritual problem.

In other news, wee brit Heather Watson isn’t doing too well against the 9th seed Angelique Kerber.

This, too, is unlikely to be a spiritual problem.

@ Caitlin:

Sorry, Caitlin – our comments crossed in the ether!

Your point is a good one but I’ll pick up the conversation later if I may, because I have a windswept (and therefore midge-free) window to dig the garden here in Scotland…

K.D. wrote:

you want to pray for someone, pray for the folks in Mexico and especially all missionaries and ministers, Protestant and Catholic in that nation…

Ditto for west africa where I spent some time.

Here’s that quote: “There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight.”
– C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

I haven’t encountered a demon-possessed person, and have only once encountered anything I could confidently describe as a demonic presence – that was about 25 years ago when I’d not long been a Christian. It was an extreme sense of oppression and fear that was unmistakably in the room, both qualitatively and quantitatively different from just having the creeps while walking through a creaky forest in a remote Scottish glen in the middle of the night where you’re the only person for miles.

I have experienced something identical, word for word description of what it seems like, even the quick disappearance. I have always questioned the experience, but I think that listening you has made me question it less. I don’t know about you, but I was terrified beyond belief at the time.

But I did see something the missionaries were calling possession when I was in Africa. Whole different thing altogether. I was not too convinced of this either, but it certainly was a definite maybe.

@ K.D.:
But the clam! The clam!

Caitlin wrote:

@ Nick Bulbeck:
I would love to hear your thoughts on the abilities of psychic bivalves.

Yeah… turns out the breeze isn’t as strong as I thought and the (notoriously sheltered) top corner of our garden is currently midge-infested. So no gardening this evening. 🙁

The psychic clam… I know, how cute is that? I’ve no opinion on him/her, but as a non-standard and rebellious Englishman I have a great deal of time for German football *. I’m hoping for a really good, attacking 2-2 draw, so that you can both go through with honours.

* In fact I’m thinking of applying for a transfer.

Lopez’s testimony is both heart wrenching and infuriating at the same time. Heart wrenching because it’s sad to the hear of the lengths humans will go to in order to ‘belong’ to a group and seek its approval. Why her account is infuriating should be self-evident to anyone who reads it.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/01/27/a-real-life-demon-possession-is-being-reported-in-indiana-the-details-are-almost-too-horrifying-to-believe/

@ Beakerj:

No roots that this Anglican who has seen exorcisms both liturgical and not. One does not do anything but exorcise (i.e.: get rid of in the name of Jesus) the demon quickly and then pray with the person to welcome God to love, heal, and nurture the wounded places in the person’s life – this may involve holy water, oil of unction, and/or communion. Always reconciliation of the person with their loving Creator, their blessed Savior, and the indwelling Holy Spirit is the goal. Scripture is always used.

@ May:
That is so sickening. I can’t believe people use things that are meant to be acts of freedom and morph them into abuse and oppression.

@ Eagle:
No, please no. The link to the pa@ Eagle:
Eagle, my first thought is that this is an elaborate hoax. However, I don’t have enough of a background to make that claim.

@ Taylor Joy: I think it’s bunk; a total, utter and complete hoax.

I am not sure that people who get caught up in excesses such as being discussed necessarily are charlatans or wacko. Surely some seem to be. But back about 35 or 40 years ago when some branch of the charismatic movement swept though our little town like a mini-tornado all sorts of people got on board, did all kinds of seriously odd things, and then the fad sort of passed on and people went back to whatever they were before for the most part. The whole thing of excesses gives a bad name to some things we really should be taking seriously. There is such a thing as evil, not just bad decisions. There are spiritual realities, not just fads. For almost everyone there are ideas and practices beyond or different from what they are used to which may be true and useful if explored and perhaps implemented. And IMO it is really good that we can discuss things openly and honestly, and the web is part of what makes that possible. Go, Deebs.

Nancy wrote:

charlatans or wacko.

Even if they are completely sincere, Nancy, the Mars Hill protocols and practices are so far contrary to sound doctrine that they should be abolished immediately.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

there is little biblical evidence that you can “cast out” immaturity..!

This made me laugh almost hysterically…if only!

elastigirl wrote:

To me, there is a culturally-Christian knee-jerk reaction to the word “eastern”, inciting fear, grave suspicion. This is not well-thought through.

I completely agree with this, there’s also just so much ridiculous superstition in the church over these things. They conveniently forget that God made the mind & the body, & their abilities. If various abilities – i.e. breathing techniques, have been co-opted by other world views then it’s not because those things are wrong in themselves, they have been wrongly used.
For me it’s just another example of where useful things, relaxation techniques,yoga for exercise etc are all binned needlessly by Christians. If I find it useful I can almost guarantee some Christian somewhere will be rabid about it.

If I could I’d spend time focusing on God mentally, but I still get sucked down a huge anxiety laden linguistic/theological wormhole that predictably ends up with agonising over the finer points of calvinism. Then I’m under the bed again, & it’s all gone wrong….I’ll just stick to thinking about how my bed, body or breathing feels for now.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

I was going to comment on the irony of “Corban”, but several of you have beaten me to it.

My take: Someone in marketing thought it sounded cool and possibly Ivy-Leaguish, and so they used it.

May wrote:

What I don’t understand is, why is a seminary joining up with this crackpot cult?

Not to be too snarky, but “seminary” once meant (generally respected) institute of higher learning. Heck, Harvard and Yale started out as seminaries. Unfortunately, many seminaries today are seeking money wherever it can be found, even if it means pandering to weirdness. If you don’t believe me, just look at the downward descent of SBTS over the last 20 years.

@ Tim:

Alright. Of course, your idea about the already and prior forgiveness of all sin past, present and future would also find people calling that contrary to sound doctrine. (Just read an article on that about a week ago, whether christians need to confess their sins.)

But saying something is contrary to sound doctrine, as you did, is a lot better that calling somebody a charlatan or a wacko, which may be unhelpful terminology. I am rather thinking spiritual deception in some cases.

But that was a good post of yours.

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

Please briefly explain any involvement you may have had with the occult, witchcraft, or anything spiritual other than orthodox biblical Christianity.
Well, to be honest, the only experience I have outside orthodox, biblical Christianity is Mars Hill.

Love it. Let’s don’t overlook that they themselves want to define what is anything spiritual other than orthodox biblical christianity, and the lutheran understanding of the eucharist would not pass the test of biblical orthodoxy at Mars Hill, and your participation in it would be a problem right there.

Eagle wrote:

I just posted that….the original source is the Indianapolis newspaper. It involves the Indianapolis police department, social services and the RC church. That strikes me different. I can’t imagine the police department being so easily had.

My wife’s family was involved with this (friend of a friend type thing; they live nearby). By all accounts it is no hoax at all. The null hypothesis still holds, but it was a well documented series of events corroborated by official documents across multiple state agencies.

Nancy wrote:

The whole thing of excesses gives a bad name to some things we really should be taking seriously. There is such a thing as evil, not just bad decisions.

I was reading an interview today with a (western) chap who works in the Middle East as a missionary. Short story even shorter, they see a fair number of healing miracles. It wasn’t always this way, but they’ve learned. He made this comment, among others:

In some ways, it was easier to live with no expectation of healing and miracles. We didn’t expect to see people healed, and therefore didn’t pray very often for healing and didn’t get disappointed. We basically got what we believed. When we began to see healing, we also had to begin to deal with the fact that some people don’t get healed. Our theology had to mature.

He and his associates work in a predominantly Muslim country where evangelism is essentially illegal. This of course means that they have to think clearly and carefully about everything they do. They can’t go for cheap, easy “decisions for Christ” because even nominal converts would face arrest themselves. They are not free to force crude or fatuously simplistic solutions down people’s throats and they need discretion and wisdom, as well as love and respect. And in many ways this is a blessing in disguise because whatever they do, they do well.

I especially love that bit about our theology had to mature. Later in the article he notes that he’s very successful now with migraines, but “although he’s prayed for many deaf and blind people, he can count their healings on one hand”. That’s one more hand than most of us would need to use, I suspect.

By contrast, here in the west it is all too easy to push crackpot religion that doesn’t work. Mars Hill is owned and run by a man with the character and theology of an 18-year-old – specifically, the 18-year-old he was when he first read the bible and decided he was called to “teach men” what he read there. He’s never submitted to anyone since, and so although his theology has evolved to some extent, it has never had to mature: they are not the same thing.

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

Unfortunately, many seminaries today are seeking money wherever it can be found, even if it means pandering to weirdness. If you don’t believe me, just look at the downward descent of SBTS over the last 20 years.

Yes, I accept that seminaries vary widely. What made me sit up was that Don Carson is associated – however remotely – with this one. He has gone on record calling Mark Driscoll his ‘friend’ and sticking up for him, so I imagine he must be fine with the whole MH set-up. I suppose I find it hard to accept the utter lack of discernment shown by guys like Carson, Dever, Piper – men held up as great leaders and theologians.

May wrote:

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Unfortunately, many seminaries today are seeking money wherever it can be found, even if it means pandering to weirdness. If you don’t believe me, just look at the downward descent of SBTS over the last 20 years.
Yes, I accept that seminaries vary widely. What made me sit up was that Don Carson is associated – however remotely – with this one. He has gone on record calling Mark Driscoll his ‘friend’ and sticking up for him, so I imagine he must be fine with the whole MH set-up. I suppose I find it hard to accept the utter lack of discernment shown by guys like Carson, Dever, Piper – men held up as great leaders and theologians.

Seminaries are so different than when I attended in the 1980s….I doubt I would even recognize what is going on now in Ft. Worth.
There are so many seminaries and bible schools and bible institutes that are now affiliated with the SBC today, as I said, I would love to be on a pulpit committee just to wade through the possible people to call….or maybe I don’t…I wonder how many of these preachers would lie to my face in order to get the position?

May wrote:

It reminds me that a few years ago Don Carson (sorry to keep banging on about him!) described Mark Driscoll as ‘brilliant, but immature’. Wonder if he thinks he’s matured much since then?

I wonder if he still thinks he is brilliant?

TW wrote:

I wonder if he still thinks he is brilliant?

Me? Certainly.

Oh – sorry.

@ Eagle: it came up on imonk a few months ago.

I read a lot then, and I believe it’s an elaborate hoax, as with the “Amityville Horror.”

Am sure that the people involved are just waiting to sign movie contracts, if they haven’t already done so.

numo wrote:

I read a lot then, and I believe it’s an elaborate hoax, as with the “Amityville Horror.”

Elaborate?

@ Nick Bulbeck: re. educated but on the weird fringes: me too, Nick.

In fact, you could throw in the entire membership of That Church, because they really tip the scales toward the multiple university degrees/high-level professional jobs types who seem to absorb it all like sponges.

so did I, even though I truly had doubts about some of it, but one thing I’d already learned was to stifle that in order to be accepted by the group.

@ K.D.: I wish I understood it. But there’s this: people are drawn to mysterious things. We just are. There’s still a lot of Mystery (cap M is deliberate) in aspects of Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, the various Lutheran churches, and some others, I’m sure.

But I think a lot of low-church Protestantism is rather emotionally barren and arid. People want to *feel,* and people want something they can see and touch and experience. God, being spirit, cannot be touched, but… this other stuff can.

Plus I really think there’s a certain “cool” factor; being part of a group that other people don’t know about. Insiders/outsiders, all of that.

And then there’s sheer gullibility and/or naïveté. I was 16 when I became involved in the early 70s charismatic renewal – i.e., *not* old enough to know better about some of the stuff. It seemed simple: people my parents’ age could point to passages in the NT and say, “This is real.” I believed them. At that point, there was a lot of overlap w/the counterculture and Jesus People and… you name it, it was there. The thing is, some of the things were real, but so much that was presented as part of a package *wasn’t.*

I don’t think there’s a single person on this earth who doesn’t, somehow, long for the transcendent, even if only deep down (in a place they can’t/won’t/don’t acknowledge).

@ Nick Bulbeck: kids parkouring off walls and suchlike. Staged.

Invalid_Nate wrote:

It’s like a strange mixture of pagan protection rituals, catholic exorcism, and really poor psychology. How does Mark even come up with this stuff?

“I SEE Things….”

dee wrote:

It was pitch dark and I was thinking about the “living room” scene in the book with all the demons sitting on the shoulders of people.

Sounds like something from Voudun; the Loa riding their Horses.

Was this in his second Spiritual Warfare novel? I remember a scene where the Demons and their “Horses” were meeting in a smoke-free room to plot how to destroy Christianity in the town/America/whatever. Every one of the plotters completely possessed and guided by the Demon riding him. I read through the scene and picked out ALL the characters there — “THAT’s Ayn Rand, THAT’s Madelyn Murray O’Hair, THAT’s The Amazing Randi, THAT’s Carl Sagan, THAT’s Anton LaVey, THAT’s Steven Jay Gould, THAT’s Shirley Mac Laine….” I remember it being THAT obvious.

Like I said earlier, I got told Peretti was the type of writer who needs a strong editor, and he didn’t have one until later in his carerr.

As I turned a corner in the dark house, a head shaped, luminescent object came floating right up to my face and I screamed bloody murder…. It was simply one of those mylar balloons which had lost some air. The moon was shining through the window and caused it to glow a bit and the heat was blowing and wafter it in my direction.

Which is why you don’t read horror after dark, and you especially don’t go into a room with the lights out AFTER reading horror.

“Why do we always have to talk about stuff like this at night?”
— Calvin to Hobbes as they hide under a blanket

TW wrote:

May wrote:
It reminds me that a few years ago Don Carson (sorry to keep banging on about him!) described Mark Driscoll as ‘brilliant, but immature’. Wonder if he thinks he’s matured much since then?

I wonder if he still thinks he is brilliant?

A Legend in his own mind.

I had one experience that happened 30-ish years ago, when our daughter was perhaps a year old or less. I awoke in the middle of the night with a sense of cold and evil. I stood and saw a figure in the little hall between our bedroom and hers, a 5’10” to 6′ tall man form with a doberman head. I commanded him to leave in the name of Jesus the Christ. He turned to look at me. When I repeated the command the figure disappeared. I firmly believe the experience was real. When the figure was gone, so was the sense of cold and evil.

@ An Attorney:

Between what you and Nick said I am more convinced that what I experienced was something real, not just my mind playing tricks. I am not sure I am too happy about that though.

@ Nick Bulbeck:
Yes! This. I can remember, for years, trying to rebuke what I thought was demonic attacks on my thoughts……when finally, after I had begun therapy and started healing….I realized I had been trying to rebuke memories that were trying to surface….Oy!

An Attorney,

Dang, that almost sounds like a reprise of Anubis.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-dark-knight-of-the-souls/372766/

Sorry it took me so long to get back with the link. This was the first I had heard about people having serious psychological problems as a result of practicing any type of meditation, but apparently there is a whole bunch of stuff on the internet about this problem.

Maybe Mars Hill can partner with Landover Baptist's Home for the Demonically Possessed !!

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0604/escape.html

@ Headless Unicorn Guy: I believe it predates the book you mention. I know for certain that it was around in 1972; maybe before that.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
After God set me free from what I believe were evil spirits and not just crazy mental illness I read everything I could get my hands on about the subject of demons including Pigs in the Parler. That book never set well with me. It seemed to just lead people into a whole other kind of legalistic bondage. I think that there are a lot of demons around us and sometimes in our flesh, I do not dwell on them and rarely talk about them. I think of Psalm 23 when David said that the Lord prepares a table before him in the presence of his enemies.
I do not believe that demons can possess our spirits but can affect our minds and flesh so strongly that our nervous systems can react in a way that expresses the evil and fearful character of the demon personality and I believe that we always have a choice whether or not to give in to their attempts to control us. Yes, the Bible says resist the devil and he will flee. What if we don’t resist. Yes, the the Bible says where the Spirit of The Lord is there is liberty. What if we don’t have liberty, what spirit is there instead? A fruit of the Holy Spirit is self control. What if I am out of control? These are questions that require discernment. It is awful to be told you have a demon when you don’t and it is awful to be told that you can’t have a demon because you are a Christian. It is doubly horrible to be a Calvinist and not believe that Christians can have a demon because if you know that you do have a demon then you fear what your predestination is. 🙂

Beakerj wrote:

A) I practise mindfulness meditation, where you bring your concentration onto simple things in the here & now. Not at all sure how this can result in demon possession. Just putting that out there. You don’t ‘empty’ your mind in any way with this, it’s all about focus. Very helpful to me & my mental health.
B) Does MH’s exorcism ritual have any roots in catholic/anglican/other historic procedures? I’m just wondering where on earth they got that wording from….apart from too much popular fiction.

I have seen this practice taught two different ways, the licensed therapist way where the mindfulness exercise is to focus on the present to ground when people are having flashbacks, very effective and I have never seen any ill effects from it. I have also seen non licensed ‘counselors’ turn the exercise into a eastern religion ritual with taking in spiritual forces for relaxation and expelling the energy into the energy field of the world etc. the meditation part isn’t about bringing to the present and grounding an individual but trying to have a spiritual experience by connecting to the ‘energy field’ or something. in those cases I personally noted a higher level of unstability and often suicidal ideation. that is not scientific study, just what I have personally witnessed in both being a client and then later volunteering in the mental health services programs

Why did I read this thread about demons right before going to bed? *facepalm*

when I saw the post on the procedure for demon trials I was shocked because aside from the lively discussion on demons and deliverance I have been following here, people should look at this in light of it being used in the hands of a self-serving manipulative person who is trying to keep his empire growing and keeping total control of people.

here is what I found out shortly after moving here and asking about a Acts 29 church right down the way from my house. largest attendance of any church in town. to become a member you have to meet with the pastor/elder/team leader, whatever they call the guy with a lot of power over you and confess any past sin in your life. pastor guy takes notes.

then if you are a problem or have unrepentant sin, they use the 'biblical' way of dealing with it. confront you on it, if you repent restore you, if you don't they tell it to the church, all of it. it's blackmail. one guy I know of had the ***** (ed) to quit the church anyway and his sins were told to the congregation and he was shunned and then we all heard all of his confessed sins in the coffee shops, the gas stations, you get the picture. no one wants to talk back or say anything negative against the church leadership because they don't want their lives ruined.

the petry's went public with things that were done to them, but they didn't have skeletons in their closets. I believe there is a whole lot of abuse going on at Mars Hill that we will never hear about because Mark Driscoll will tell people the sins of those accusers of his. people coming from promiscuity or the drug sect who have since turned their lives around and have great jobs are facing having their lives destroyed by something they confessed in confidence (they thought) to a person portraying himself as a servant of Jesus and God. Mars Hill has a copy of the sins of the person they put on "demon trial".

Hester wrote:

Why did I read this thread about demons right before going to bed? *facepalm*

Join Calvin & Hobbes hiding under the bed…
“Why do we have to talk about things like that at NIGHT?”

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

“Discernment” originally meant the ability to see beneath the surface and understand the reality of a complex or obscure situation.

As far as I am concerned it still does mean that. I once heard somebody say that satan cannot create anything; he can only distort things that already exist. I thought that was a good idea, and this discernment thing in the way they are using it is certainly a distortion of a good thing.

Thank you for your confidence in your Roman Catholic friends. My spiritual director is a priest who is also an exorcist for our diocese. He says they check everything out, psychologically, family doctors, friends, before they go the exorcism route and very rarely is a person actually possessed.

But he does have some amazing stories. . . @ Nancy:

sam h wrote:

Mars Hill has a copy of the sins of the person they put on “demon trial”.

It would be worth knowing when this “demon trial” nonsense began at MH. My primary concern with it is simply that it plain wrong in itself, on so many levels. But I would be interested to know whether its introduction correlates with a time in MH’s history when Fiscal’s need for controlling tools increased sharply.

And now, sport.

Somebody at Wimbledon is a break up. But in the interest of “no spoilers”, I won’t say who it is.

@ JohnD: This whole topic reminds me of the song “99 Red Balloons”.

Deb wrote:

Looks like Mars Hill Church and SGM have more in common than I realized. Collect dirt on members and then use it against them if they step out of line.

Deb, reading that story of the woman who was involved with Mars Hill right from the beginning, and then ended up having an exorcism forced upon her (and is understandably still suffering after all that spiritual abuse), I was struck by the many, many similarities between MH and SGM. Things like, Bible studies ceased studying the Bible and had to simply go over the previous week’s sermon. Even when it was the ridiculous situation of an all-female group of singles (with one poor married woman) having to study the sex series ‘Peasant Princess’. When they asked if they could simply study the Bible they were told no, they might stray into incorrect doctrine (that fear and control over doctrine is a characteristic I have noticed in all Neo-reformed cultures, including ones close to home). Also, the practice of shunning. The tendency, within marital counselling, to blame the wife for not being submissive enough. Straight from SGM.

@ sam h:
Hmmmm, very interesting, I never thought about that. I know a pot smoking Mars Hill pastor. I always figured Driscoll must know about it and be ok with it, but what a great thing to hold over his head were he to ever defect. I mean, how many other churches would hire him. In just two weeks marijauna will be sold legally in our stores so I’m sure that grip would be weakened.

Anna wrote:

@ JohnD: This whole topic reminds me of the song “99 Red Balloons”.

1) How so?
2) English lyrics or the original German?
3) If the German, are you aware of the KGB connection?

Eagle wrote:

Pastor Harry Hardwick on the Hobby of Being a Homosexual. Have you heard Landover Baptist has found demons in your body!!

Body Thetans?

numo wrote:

@ Headless Unicorn Guy: I believe it predates the book you mention. I know for certain that it was around in 1972; maybe before that.

Regardless of Who’s on First, the “Ugh in the Argh” title of both is very suspicious.

Like all the FRP games with “Ugh & Argh” titles after the success of D&D.
Or the “Ugh, the Argh” titles after White Wolf scored a hit.

@ Nancy:
1 Corinthians 12:10 Amp
10 To another the working of miracles, to another prophetic insight ([c]the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose); to another the ability to discern and distinguish between [the utterances of true] spirits [and false ones], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, to another the ability to interpret [such] tongues.

dee wrote:

You know what I would say if I was asked to confess all my sins to a pastor like that? “You start…..”

SNORT!

@ Patti:

Let’s pursue this a bit further. In trying to put the two statements together, 1 Cor and 1 John, in the one talking about a gift (like you said) and in the other making a distinction based on what sounds like something which is actually being said (not just perceived) is that consistent with people actually trying to talk to spirits (as per Mars Hill) or do you think these are two separate things?

This has implications as to whether everybody could determine between spirits without any special gift or whether discerning spirits would be limited to those especially gifted to do so. It also has implications about what was discussed up thread about talking to alleged spirits and asking questions during a real or sham exorcism.

Bear in mind, in my religious tradition we do not do any of this, so I have no axe to grind in this matter. I am trying to get a grip on some of the conversation here on this topic.

@ Caitlin:
@ Tim:

Of course, Caitlin, good reply. As to confrontational and snarky? I never would have guessed.

But Tim, you went further than that in your post to include present sins and future sins. There is a line of thinking out there which you might be referencing. It has been called hyper-grace by its detractors. I don’t know your thinking, of course, but you used their terminology, and that hyper-grace issue is a whole different thing. It was briefly touched on here recently in talking about Tullian T and whether that was what he believed which might have been part of his disagreement with TGC. I am looking at how to tie ideas together, that’s all.

@ Nick Bulbeck:

So what do you think, Nick? Should people be trying to talk to spirits, or are we talking about separate issues or separate ways of knowing or what? This has practical application I am thinking.

@ Nancy:

Apologies, Nancy, as you posted that comment while my nose was stuck in an online concordance (lest anyone remotely imagine I’ve memorised the Greek NT).

The manifestation mentioned in 1 Cor 12 is unlikely to refer to holding a conversation with a spirit, nor is it likely to refer to deciding on and passing a sentence as appears to happen in the “exorcisms” at MH. Its meaning is much more like a guilty/not-guilty verdict. So, when most translations call it “discerning” or “distinguishing between” spirits, that’s fair enough. Which opens, of course, a whole nuther can of worms – because it implies that demons are not the only spirits that a believer should expect to encounter! Indeed, there are very straightforward descriptions of believers meeting angels in the NT, not least at the empty tomb. (Bet the angels were queueing up to get that gig!)

@ Nancy:

I’m clearly not Nick, but I get… nervous when people seek out spirits. I’m of the “If God wants to talk to me, He knows where to find me” opinion when it comes to spiritual gifts like prophesy. One person hears a spirit that they think might be Godly and another person discerns where it comes from and perhaps a third person interprets.

To me, the whole spiritual gifts thing is like an apostolic checks and balances system. No one person can divine the word of God alone- it takes a team. And that’s partly why I get wary about speaking to spirits. It’s so showy and fancy and powerful and oh-so-cool. I mean, I’m a huge fantasy fiction and comicbook fan and it would be AWESOME if I suddenly had power to see the future or something. So. Cool. And if I were influence-inclined, it would be a greeeeat way to get people over to my side (and filling my coffers) if I could dramatically cast out demons and see people’s pasts and basically have extra-sensory perception and psychic powers.

I think about the Old Testament prophets. I can’t speak 100% for all of them, but they generally seem to be just doing their thing when God finds them. Daniel would lock himself in his room to pray. Isaiah was probably scarred for life. They weren’t being all showy and whatnot, they weren’t trying to become prophets. God made them prophets.

So… while part of my worry comes from a “You never know *who* you’re talking to!” concern, a majority of it comes from an acknowledgment of the basic human desire to be God, not just His image.

@ Caitlin:

Makes sense.

@ Nancy:
Nancy,
I do not get offended in the least when people question. If I had not been ‘whooped upside the head’ 22 years ago with my experience I would never have dug so deep into the scriptures about this subject.
As for your question about the discerning gift. I think the Bible teaches that most of the time anyone can tell what is true or false if we listen well. We have the NT now which helps us out a lot so we don’t need to ask questions. I don’t think that asking demons their name is so bad, Jesus did it. I don’t think anyone should rely on any certain formula. We must be led by the Holy Spirit.
I think that the ministry of deliverance from demons parallels the ministry of preaching and the ministry of healing. Jesus, being our example did each ministry in many different ways as He was led. I think that it is extremely important that we do not go beyond anything that He did. One example is that I cannot find any incidence where He laid His hands on someone to drive a demon out. It was the spoken word only. In one case He drove a demon out of a woman with His word then He touched her to heal her from the damage caused by the demon. I’m not going to make up any kind of reasoning as to why He didn’t touch. I don’t know where this holding down business came from with some ministers.
I know I haven’t answered real well right now, I need to go, hopefully I will have more time later tonight.

Ok…time to get serious. I think in the case of MH the demon trials are more about control, manipulation, and a way to introduce fear into the flock. In totalitarian regimes trials are ways of exacting and enforcing control. You sacrifice one or two individuals to get the message out of the community. Thus you create and inspire fear to keep control of the masses. Saddam Hussein did this brilliantly in Iraq and by holding mock trials or getting people to point out traitors you can whip people up into a frenzy. Of course in this case it’s not a dictatorship in Baghdad; it’s a dictatorship in Seattle. Demon trials are a way to get people to confront, confess, and be on one’s guard. People are on guard chasing each other, kept occupied that the flock in Mars Hill and other campuses are now controlled. It’s a way for Mark Driscoll to enforce his role.

@ Deb: but that isn’t *at all* how confession works in the RCC. It is confidential, and people are not grilled – let alone blackmailed – in the way that these two cults have been doing.

It really has nothing to do w/Catholicism. I believe Eagle’s comment about manipulation and control goes right to the heart of the matter.

@ Eagle: yes. This.

elastigirl wrote:

and since there’s no chance MD would get in the cage himself, he found a way to be the ultimate cage fighter in the safety of his own office and the comfy of his own chair.

And clearly doesn’t believe what he’s shilling, or else he would be equally scared out of his mind at the idea of just calling up demons all casual like.

@ numo:

I don’t know about regular confession for practicing catholics, of course, but in RCIA we were given a printed outline from which to make a list of those things to confess at the time of doing (I have forgotten the name of it) where we were to go back to childhood and dig up everything that was confessable and do it. As I understood, or thought I understood, this was a one time event for adult converts. I dropped out of the program for other reasons before doing this, so I only know what we were told.

   __

MarzHil: “Have Bible Authority ℠, will Exorcize Demons…” ?

huh?

The concept, especially, of one’s own church members being taken under the control of evil demon forces is particularly disturbing.

Yep.

A curiously compelling proverbial popcorn religious movie?

What?

I think not.

Krunch!

Rebuking and casting out evil spirits, in the name of Jesus, is one thing, true,  – having a dialog with them is quite another thing entirely…would you like butter wit dat?

 Isn’t it important to understand? :

A. Churches ‘are’ battling evil.  (check)
B. “how” to properly battle evil biblically.  (check)
C. Who Christ is.  (check)
D. What Christ has done for you as a believer.  (check)
E.  Who you are in Christ.  (check)

check, check, testing 1, 2, testing, testing…

Q. Who do the keys of ‘death’ and ‘hell’ belong to these Dayz?

Q. Who sits upon the throne in Heaven interceding on our behalf?

(hmmm…Jesus, last time I ‘check’d’…)

-snicker-

Sopy
__
Comic relief:  ‘Invaders from MarzHil?’ – Da Movie: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSm-W43B4Mc

;~)

—

A comment here got me wondering about Matthew 18 and shunning. Shunning is what so many churches do but does Matthew 18 actually say to shun? So I looked it up last night and no, nowhere is there anything about shunning someone. What it says is to treat someone as a pagan or a tax collector. So how is one supposed to treat a pagan or a tax collector? I went looking for commentary and here’s a great one (which also tells of another bad Mars Hill incident): http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2012/01/26/treat-them-like-a-tax-collector-reflections-on-matthew-18-church-discipline-and-andrew/

Deebs/Anne Hutchinson…you need to link “We Love Mars Hill” to your blog role!

@ elastigirl: I like your wording re. The Comfy Chair… 😉

@ numo:

Yes, it is. I have no quarrel with the catholic sacrament of reconciliation. The similarity I mentioned at first deals with the idea of a requirement of a thorough confession to a priest (or elder at Mars Hill) prior to membership. And, the similarity of content of the information requested? required? at the time of that confession.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy: I meant the topic of being frightened by balloons. The lyrics speak of nations going to war over an large bunch of them, thinking that the enemy has attacked. Please don’t read too much into my post, it was just anecdotal.

@ Daisy:
Yes, me too! I was wondering if anyone else picked that up.

The whole story shows such ridiculous attempts at controlling the congregates. First, the pressure to become a member – the whining the members do because they ban non members from certain jobs, meaning the “fall” onto the membership disproportionately. Next, once members, the pressure put on couples to tithe, the intrusive questions, the stupid suggestions to go on food stamps (is this legal if caught?) so they can tithe more – the coercion. Next, the melt down all the women seem to go through. That is about the 20th story of a woman hitting a wall and needing others to help her, seems far too frequent there. Once the woman is down, now the “demon trials” begin. She is batters, coerced and defeated, so, it must be a demon, because it couldn’t be, you know, the church or anything. Also, the subtle pressure to have so many kids. 4 or 5 kids per family is alway the norm at these young “hip” independent psudo charismatic churches. Do all these women even want large families? Or are they just expected to have them? If pressured, they are beaten down with tones of kids they may not be able to handle well plus all the “wifely duties”.

When these women fall apart, the church then blames demons?!? How about Jesus’ teachings on not tying up heavy burdens on people – wasn’t that the sin of the Pharisees?

We could debate forever on what to do about the demonic encounters that Jesus dealt with in the New Testament, but in these situations, the church is trying to blame the outcome of it’s own pathetic teachings on demons.

Mark would do better worrying about himself than others, he is in no place to lead right now.

Nancy wrote:

It has been called hyper-grace by its detractors.

P.S. One big difference between hyper-grace and what I wrote, by the way, is that those folks apparently eschew confession of sin. I think confession is totally based on biblical precepts for believers. As I said, I have a post coming up next week that will lay out the basis for confessing sin but not fearing a failure to seek forgiveness when it comes to ensuring one’s salvation.

Cheers,
Tim

Welcome, roebuck!

Sopwith wrote:

Rebuking and casting out evil spirits, in the name of Jesus, is one thing, true, – having a dialog with them is quite another thing entirely…would you like butter wit dat?

Isn’t that what a Sorcerer/Summoner does?
(Hope Pastor “I SEE Things” drew and enchanted his pentacle and containment circle properly…)

numo wrote:

@ elastigirl: I like your wording re. The Comfy Chair…

“NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!!”

@ roebuck:

My two cents? The people who join and stay are generally go-along-to-get-along types. I was not a member of Mars Hill, but I did belong to a college Christian group that took a nose dive for a while. Being snarky and confrontational, I didn’t put up with it and told people exactly what I thought when they asked me about it. Others stuck around because either they were benefiting (yes, people benefit) or they agreed with what was happening. Now I’m one-eye-open-at-all-times and my friend who was a “not as outspoken” ended up having to escape another church mentioned frequently here led by a MD. Now her eyes are open.

Basically, I think dee’s answer is right on, but let’s not underestimate the power of “It works for me.”

@ Caitlin:

Thanks for your reply, Caitlin.

I guess the inertia of the situation, especially for long-time members, is a powerful element. I expect, too, for long-time members, that the knowledge of these scandals comes along so gradually and so filtered/modulated/spun by the top dogs that it’s like the old ‘frog in the pot’ thing.

Still, it’s hard to see and not want to scream ‘wake up people!”

@ roebuck:

Yep.

I talked about this with my friend, and I came to a realization though. Screaming wake up people (or even being as gentle and kind as possible about it) is pretty much useless, because these are issues that get right at the heart of people and in places that only God can work. So the best we can do is to continuously say “I don’t agree with that” or “My church doesn’t do that.” and wait. Much like people escaping an abusive relationship, frankly.

@ Caitlin:

Let’s also remember that people do benefit from cults as long as they cooperate. I see so many parallels between Sovereign Grace, Mormonism and Mars Hill Seattle. My wake up call occurred with Mormonism when I was a 20-22 year old college student. I think the collective Christian church needs to repent and also take ownership of situations like Mars Hill or SGM. Why? They are often in their own world plowing ahead consumed with growth, growth, growth, and numbers, numbers, numbers. People fall through the cracks, can’t get involved and one of the basic needs in life is community. I live in the Washington, D.C. area and I have to tell you this is the loneliest place I live. In one year alone almost all my friends moved…this city is that transient. And I also think the reason why organizations like Mars Hill thrives in Seattle, or SGM in Washington, D.C. is because they feed on people who move here, are in the military and stationed here, attend college here, and in their need for community get involved. That was how I got involved in the Mormons in Montana. One guy I knew who was involved in a Sovereign Grace church struggled with his job in New Jersey and was lonely. He struggled to find community. So here he is in DC looking for community and along comes community. I place the blame on the greater Christian church. It would be fascinating to find out if the growth of mega churches has fed all these neo-Cal cults.

Caitlin wrote:

Others stuck around because either they were benefiting (yes, people benefit) or they agreed with what was happening.

If they were “benefiting” or not is an interesting concept. My thinking is that a lot of people may be getting “something” out of their church experience. Most of us do things to get something in return. Whether what we are getting from a church relationship is of real benefit or not is another question.

@ Eagle:

Oh yes, I think they DO benefit. I think a lot of people benefit. My friend thought that the church run by a Mark D who isn’t based out of Seattle was the best thing she ever saw until it very suddenly wasn’t. Then she started seeing how “being challenged” for her was turning out to be “spiritual abuse.” But if you didn’t get some sort of sense of belonging, why would you stick around?

And to Bridget, at least some of the benefiting I’m talking about is a much more human sort of benefit. I bet the guys chosen to be community group leaders given doctrinal control over a group of people, some older than themselves, benefit a lot.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

Take that idea away from black magic specifically and apply it to everything that comes down the road, and that used to be a common idea. A common ethic, actually. That silence gives consent, and to remain silent in the face of false doctrine or bad practice or blatant sin was to be an enabler of it (to use current terminology.)

Now we have a lot of mixed signals, in that we urge people to protest this or that, but we have a fit if somebody has an opinion which differs from the one we want them to have.

  __

Beguiled: Into The 501(c)3 Church Proverbial Predatorial Precipice, Perhaps? 

Roebuck: “…does not the congregation bear some responsibility? Responsibility for some enabling, perhaps?”

Dee “Does the person who sits in the pew, paying money to Mars Hill, need to bear some of the blame?…Surely, if I was a member of such a church, and gave money to it, I would definitely be to blame because I am educated in this nonsense and have experienced church shenanigans up close and personal. You know ‘Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.’ ”

hmmm…

501(c)3 Church owners have a message for churchgoers this year: Show me mo money…

-snicker-

What?

Yeah, it is not just movie houses raising da price of ad-mis-sion , churches too, are getting into the act.

hmmm…

Since church is now classified by all apparent visual indications, if it quacks like a duck, kinda thing…as ‘entertainment’ -low lights, loud music, coffee bars, snack counters, eateries, book tables, gift shopps, etc…

huh?

Well, lets see, a standard U.S. movie fair is about eight bucks per person, popcorn and a drink about another ten or so. So figure give or take a twenty spot as the price of admission…

Krunch!

Shouldn’t the same sentiment be assigned to the average 501(c)3 darkened hall rock n’ roll church service ‘business’ as well?

hmmm…Something to possibly consider?

What?

(…just don’t scream, ‘fire’… )

*

Skreeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch!

“Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this -to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained (ed. unspotted, unspoiled) by the world. ~ James, in the New Testament Scriptures.

hmmm…didn’t say nott’in bout pay’in fo no big profusely present tense proverbial pastor’s pad…

(bump)

Hey Christian, Do U feel ‘Taken’? ( background noise: present polite ‘pastoral’ perspective …”it wasn’t personal…”) [1]

(sadface)

Sopy
__
[1] Gate-ing… to another Church Universe: : “hmmm…These are plainly, ‘the wrong people…’ ”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HyD3aKFTkA

;~)

—

@ Nancy:

Thanks for your reply, Nancy. I’ve been learning a lot from your posts here over these last few months that I’ve been lurking…

I guess we have to recognize that there are many different dynamics contributing to the situation.

I suppose it is only by the Grace of God that I was never sucked into a cult-like situation – I was actively recruited for a couple, back in the early 70’s, but was savvy/lucky/innocent enough to decline. Once you’re in…

I wasn’t intending to be judgmental so much as honestly curious as to how it happens. You and several other folks hear have made some real good points, but it still seems odd to me…

  __

‘Religion’ Disconnected: “The SGM Apprentice?”

Sopwith: “Rebuking and casting out evil spirits, in the name of Jesus, is one thing, true, – having a dialog with them is quite another thing entirely…would you like butter wit dat?”

@ HUG
: “Isn’t that what a Sorcerer/Summoner does?”

hmmm…

hey,

No, I don’t think your suppose ta use Mickey’s absconded wand… (your mileage may vary)     

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHTnJNGvQcA

(grin)

Sopy
__
cheep notz:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism_in_Christianity

;~)

—

@ roebuck:

It is often asked, Why do people stay in abusive churches?, and in this context, your own question is both interesting and a very good one. Having left an abusive church in which I was myself on the bottom rung of “leadership”, I have asked myself: to what extent was I victim (and Lesley and I were certainly treated on many occasions in a way that no secular workplace would tolerate), and to what extent was I culpable?

I can’t answer for anyone else, either at MH or elsewhere. But there are probably some common patterns.

By way of framing this, let me repeat a well-known phrase from 1 John which the Holy Spirit spelt out to me in exactly this context. For want of a better way to describe it, he – as it were – “read” the verse to me with the following inflection: If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. In other words, God can deal with the effects of other people’s sin on my life; I just need to deal with my own. I am sure you understand that this is not the same as blaming myself for what someone else did, nor does it suppose that I “must have sinned as well”.

I made a great many honest mistakes. Big deal – I’m still making honest mistakes, actually! But I can think of four specific apple-points that answer your question, Roebs:

 Jesus commanded us to love one another as he loves us, and to treat them as we want to be treated. I did not always do this. To the degree that I showed disrespect or disapproval towards fellow-believers based on the report of the CEO, I am responsible.
 The CEO preached on the importance of authority but never submitted to anyone himself. To the degree that I stood by and allowed him to live thus unchallenged, and applied a lower standard to him than I would to myself or anyone else, I am responsible. He himself claimed that in holding someone accountable you are not hampering but blessing them. I believed this to be true even at the time, and therefore I should have known better than to withhold that same blessing from him, regardless of how cleverly and/or aggressively rebellious he was himself.
 To the degree that I let the commands of leaders override my own conscience before God, I am culpable. From my earliest days as a Christian I declared to Jesus that I wanted no King and no Master but him, whatever the cost. I let men usurp his rule even though their claims to be speaking on his behalf were manifestly not the voice of the Shepherd. Most seriously, I let them paint before me a false and ugly image of Jesus himself, and thus, I was a party to building an abomination.
 To the degree that I did not stand up for our marriage, I am responsible. That would be true regardless of where we stand on the comp/egal divide because at the very minimum I share joint responsibility. But I repeatedly allowed Lesley to be overloaded with work that she should not have had to do, I allowed time that we should have spent together building our relationship to be swallowed by the demands of the church program, and I allowed myself to be spoken to like dirt in front of her, to her great distress.

I hope that makes sense…

@ Nick Bulbeck:

Many thanks, Nick, for your heartfelt reply. I will read it again, but yes, it makes sense and is quite helpful.

I have been ‘unchurched’ for a long time, to the point that I think I might be unchurchable. Maybe the Orthodox Church could put up with me, I don’t know. Other than the Church I grew up in (long ago, in a galaxy far awah), my involvement with churches (indeed, the Faith) has been mostly peripheral, as I’ve bounced around the country. So I’ve not felt the ‘hold’ that a specific Church can seem get on people.

I guess I was asking my original question(s) more out of sorrow and exasperation than trying to ‘blame’ anyone. Your reply, and that of others here, have helped me in de-simplifying my thinking about this. Though it still makes me sad…

I hope the midges allowed you to get something done in your garden. Here it’s mosquitoes, clouds of them. We’ll have midges soon enough, though… (we call them ‘no-see-ums’ here in New England).

May wrote:

Because it would appear that in their world doctrine trumps all.

Erratum: Their doctrine trumps all.

  __

Come on folks, Pastor Mark Driscoll can’t be all that bad, can he? I mean, Pastor Charles Joseph Mahaney thinks he’s just great…    🙂

—

In local news, the Beaumont Independent School District here in Texas called people at 8:30 to 10:00pm last evening telling them they were to be laid off….300 jobs lost….can’t afford to pay them anymore…..but they have a brand new state of the art football stadium…Welcome to Texas…. 🙁

@ K.D.:

I learned at Arroyo High School around 1970 that Football Quarterbacks and Cheerleaders are The Master Race and all the rest of us are Subhumans. And Football is a jealous god.

Eagle wrote:

@ Nancy:
She might have well been defending the Mormon Church if that’s all that matters.

At least the Mormons have a place in American History. They opened and settled a lot of the West; what has Mars Hill done that’s comparable? And will they last as long as the Mormons? MD might be a Joseph Smith, but will he have a Brigham Young who can turn a one-man cult into a self-sustaining religion?

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

LOL….ROFL….What has Mars Hill done that is comparable? Forgive me guys I can’t resist! WEll The Mormons conqueerred an settled the west. Mark Driscoll has conquerred and settled the bedroom on a pornograghic set! ROFL…”Mark Driscoll Does Seattle!” LOL!!!!

Nancy wrote:

@ K.D.:
Oh, KD, that is so sad. My daughter did what used to be as many of the right things she could to make teaching a success story for herself, graduate degree, dual certifications, long time on the job, good performance reviews. Now that has become the perfect road to unemployment, because people like her get paid more, and they are the ones now targeted for elimination. And the administrators tell her and others like her several times a year to get ready, because it may be this year or next year or the next, but pink slip time is coming. From the information she has, this seems to be all over, not just Texas.

It depends on where you are in Texas..in Midland and Odessa ( Odessa is Ector Co. Schools) there are teaching positions that go unfilled. Oil boom. I had a former student teaching math in Midland, try and get me to come and teach 12th grade economics….but I’d have to move 600 miles to West Texas…..no thank you, I’ll stay retired….;)
However, Midland is sending HR folks to Beaumont to recruit….

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Bit of Shakespeare…

😀
This seems apropos, as well…

“I do the wrong, and first begin to brawl.
But then I sigh; and, with a piece of scripture,
Tell them that God bids us do good for evil:
And thus I clothe my naked villany
With old odd ends stolen out of holy writ;
And seem a saint, when most I play the devil.”
– William Shakespeare, Richard III

I was in college (a state university) in the early seventies. I went out on a date with a classmate who spent the entire evening talking about how his former fiancée had ‘inexplicably’ called off their engagement. Why oh why would she change her mind about him when he was such a great guy he kept asking and answered himself by saying it had to be demon possession. Caught up in the drama, the campus Christian group to which they both belonged had held an exorcism for her, an event the poor girl had declined to attend. I decided 1) not to see him again and 2) not to join the campus Christian group.

Eagle wrote:

Privately I am hoping that Mars Hill runs afoul of the IRS, or the Washington Department of Taxation, or whatever you call it. With what James Duncan documented on the Pajama Pages of how Mark Driscoll broke financial rules with inuemont (sp?) I am waiting for him to be reported so this whole mess comes crashing down.

THen all his friends will see it as confirmation of what they have been calling “Obama’s war on Christianity”.

I think, MD and a few others (TD J, Steven F, Perry N, Ed Jr. come to mind) need to have a demon extracted themselves – his name is (Love of) Mammon.

@ elizabetta carrera:

I neither misunderstand what the catholic church does in first communion for adult converts, nor have I criticized the catholic church. I am not a catholic for entirely other reasons.

What I said in my original comment was that the Mars Hill people, who are requiring the equivalent of this practice before membership, did not make up the idea de novo. They got it from somewhere, and I suggested that maybe they got it from the catholic church which does something like that. Then Deb noted that MD and some other fellow had catholic backgrounds, and so maybe that was indeed where they got the idea.

How anybody can twist any of that into anti-catholic bias or such is way beyond me.

Gus wrote:

Then all [Park Fiscal’s] friends will see it as confirmation of what they have been calling “Obama’s war on Christianity”.

Whereas all of us have been saddened by Fiscal’s war on Christianity.

@ Eagle: next time, please do resist… have you seen the updated comment guidelines re. sexual innuendo?

Check this exorcism out here with Bruce Larson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUOAmOX5LFI

@ Nancy: Not sure Nancy, I am no Catholic, but I have sensed some hostility towards it from you on other threads, it could be those combined with naming Driscol and the RCC in the same sentence.

Both Driscol and Mahany were raised Catholic, both have Irish last names, but Driscol dropped out at about 12. Not sure about Mahaney? That said, these guys are running cults, not churches. They would appeal to any system that gives them power and control.
The Demon Trial stuff is close to some peopl’s views (usually the fringe ppl) in Charismatic churches (that ancesteral demon stuff, for example, was a constant prayer go-to in my Charismatic days). But I have also noted Mark seems to legitimize his authority by appealing to his (supposed) superior Demon combat skills ( the I see things video, the supposed godly revelation of his wife’s high school tryst written from his POV as a huge betrayal towards him b/c she neglected to confess it, that whole story is a threat to his congregation – if you don’t confess, God will tell me and I’ll be mad!). That is a whacky way to convince others you are a legit. pastor/leader, but it works with ppl brought up in more superstitious/ demon-focused circles. Not very Catholic, more fringe Charismatic pew sitters with little to do but a need to feel grandious and/or significant.

So while I am talking about my offending people, I have no historical or family background with charismatic or pentecostal people. Nothing on any level of intimacy or unguarded conversation or such. Nada. The only even relatively close view of those traditions that I had was highly unpleasant and involved some next door neighbors when I was a child, and one experience when I played my violin at one pentecostal meeting as a young teen. But then, I began to “experience” strange and confusing things and came to the conclusion that the charismatics were right about some things, apparently. So I ask questions. No doubt I sound hostile, dismissive and whatever. I apologize for that and will also change my conversation–drastically–right now.

But is there not something strange here, that we say it might be good to tear down some of the walls, and then to find out that we really ought to build them back up again in order to be able to live together.

And is it not strange, I have noticed that those of us with backgrounds in various scientific fields can chat and share information and ask questions and get answers and be apparently open and comfortable in doing that, as long as it is scientific in any way, but when religion comes up we all get skittish and perhaps defensive and more than a little cautious, just in case. I am thinking that these may be two totally different approaches to information handling, and this may be part of the distancing that exists between science and religion. A distancing due to style, not just substance. I don’t know, just a thought.

@ Nancy:
I see this too. I’m also on the science, quantitative side of the line. I’m quite willing to talk about things but also quite unwilling to divulge much in the way of personal details. The “inner/outer” topic distinction seems to be most controlling for me.

@ oldJohnJ:

Every time you comment I am faced with the realization that what I do is “applied” science. Never mind it may be high tech or take a long time in school, there is still a fundamental difference between those of you who do “real” science and the rest of us. Thing is, I do not feel threatened by that. I just like hearing what you say. Just pointing out some of the good aspects of it all.

@ Nancy:
For what it is a worth, Nancy, the free flow of ideas is part of what makes this site so amazing. I don’t agree with very thing that various commentors say (yes, including you 😉 ), but I wouldn’t want anyone to pull back from asking questions or making observations. I learn a lot from all of you. And I have.come to really enjoy…and listen…to what you have to say. So please, carry on! 🙂

You know, I was just thinking about this yesterday….how much fun it would be to be able to have a Wartburg gathering ….picnic reunion sort of thing….and get to know each other and just talk face to face…..

@ Bridget:

I get that. I do think that some specific words may be triggers just as much as the idea expressed. I am going to test that theory and see how it works. Avoid certain words, try other forms of expression. It is no big deal and it is worth a try.

In line with what you are saying about trigger/triggers/triggering, though, once upon a time I went through a period of rather intense anger about some things that were going on but which really were not my concern and did not impact me in any way. Eventually I realized that I needed to ask myself why I was so angry about it. In the process I actually uncovered an important but forgotten (repressed?) memory. Nothing tragic, and no reason that I can tell why the memory was not there at a conscious level all along, but it was not and it was the answer to why I was so angry about this other thing. That only happened once like that, but apparently stuff like that does happen, as well as the other stuff we have been talking about.

@ oldJohnJ:
Interestingly enough, these kinds of criteria are also very important in the humanities – historical research, for example (when you start off knowing that there’s no way you’ll ever have *all* of the evidence available), in art connoisseurship – evaluating and establishing an attribution (artist, usually), period created, even narrowing it down to a specific time frame (1790s, for example) if there’s no date and no documentation on when a piece was made. (Of course, there are all kinds of scientific tools and analasyes done by art conservators, but I’m talking primarily about simply eyeballing a piece.)

So while I am not coming from your field or POV, I think we all have some critical thinking skills and methodology in common.

numo wrote:

I think we all have some critical thinking skills and methodology in common.

I agree. I have a son with a history Ph. D. His critical thinking skills are impressive. In my comment to Nancy I was concerned primarily with quantitative skills which are particularly important in the sciences and also tend to make eyes glaze over in individuals not familiar with even simple statistics.

@ Nancy: oh, I got that! There’s a pecking order in every field.

For example: I worked at an archive that was part of a museum. However, we were not allowed to use the word in the name, or to publicly call it an archive, or to refer to ourselves as archivists. That’s because some people who had degrees in archival studies (as opposed to art/art history) were very put out that anyone not from *their* branch of studies would dare to use these terms.

Go figure.

@ Jeannette Altes:

Agreed!!!!

numo wrote:

Also, I’ve seen “hard” science people get all high and mighty about biology and the like

Please be a little more explicit about this. What exactly to do you mean by “high and mighty”?

@ Tim:
Excellent post, Tim! Thank you!

@ oldJohnJ:
Looking down on those in other scientific disciplines that are widely perceived as “soft science.”

dee wrote:

William Wallace
 Finally, I have had the opportunity to work with schizophrenice patients who are able to do the same things that the woman in the video was doing. My concern is we are overlooking the possibility of a psychiatric disorder. I have seen people who have claimed to have been exoriced of demons ony to develop their previous symptoms soon afterwards. I believe that anyone who is going to have a demon exorcised should first consult with a psychaitrist and medical doctor. I know the Office that deals with exorcism in the Vatican requires such examinations prior to them being willing to examine a potential “possessed” individual.

I think that this verse speaks to the importance that we do not treat every everyone with the same method or medicine:
And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

Medicine did not work for me. I hate the word excorcism but I guess that’s what happened with me. As far as any different voices coming out of a person other than her own, that isn’t going to happen. A demon can’t make a human or animal body do any more than it is capable already. It just knows how to influence it to its full potential whether lowest voice or surge of adrenaline to make it appear stronger. If a demon could express itself without using a life form then why would it want a host.
I also think about when Jesus himself was accused of having a demon. Obviously the accusers were just trying to discredit Him but I find it interesting that they thought they could be credible saying it even about someone who was not displaying any bizarre behavior.
I also do not see anything wrong with trying medicine even when we suspect a demonic presence. Instant salvation from hearing the Word, instant healing or deliverance…all three are miracles. When I say that medicine did not work for me I mean it did not deliver me, but it did subdue me so that I did not hurt myself or others.

@ Patti: Patti, people attributed many illnesses to supernatural causes in Jesus’ time. I think it’s important to look at the Scriptures in that light. (As Dee and others have already said.)

I cannot imagine that God would impose a scientific understanding of the world on the writers of the NT, who would likely have been overwhelmed by it. He works with us where we are, and they were no exception. (i.e., the Bible isn’t an instruction manual and/or medical or scientific textbook, nor was it ever intended to be.)

Sometimes diagnoses and treatment are not all we could wish for, you know?

P.S.: I don’t expect that this comment will change your thinking on this topic, but I do hope you’ll take this and other responses into consideration. It might be that this is all more complex than any of us realize, no?

This is something Mars Hill would never read but it has some truth:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/30/megachurch-star-mark-driscoll-s-publishing-downfall.html

I don’t understand when a Seminary becomes affiliated with a den if doctrinal and ethical controversy. Especially one that was founded on traditional Baptist orthodoxy. Do they want to be associated with all the theological questions Mark Driscoll has begged from detractors? I hope they have polemics defending plagiarism and cult like authoritarianism and whatever other skeletons are in Mr. Driscoll’s closet. I am sure there is more to come in the Mark Driscoll adventure, or bus trip.

@ Nancy:
Yes, I agree.

But on the other hand:
For me, my experiences have just not yet been sufficiently explained to me by any kind of scientific explanation. Maybe I was schizophrenic or something and God instantly healed me from that???
If Numo is correct, maybe God is just still meeting me as far as my intellect can handle like in the Bible days 🙂

@ Patti:

Again, I feel, what I am doing here is not evident. I am not arguing against what you said. I am using your original comment to argue against what I think numo said. And I am taking the opportunity to argue against what I see in too many ideas of little old ladies at my church who ideologically espouse some ideas which I think are not only untrue but which can damage other people for whom faith is more than that.

Like Nick says, I hope this is helpful.

@ Nancy:
Oh yes, I realized that and I truly meant it when I said I agreed with you. I thought your comment was spot on. When I said ‘on the other hand’ I was merely trying to see it if I had agreed with numo. I seriously do try to look at all explanations but unless someone has actually walked through my experiences it is harder to grasp where they are coming from in their beliefs, because so far every explanation besides the simple Bible stories just seem to create more questions from me that no one can answer. The simple Bible explanations just sit so peacefully with me. They scare some people but they comfort me, and if that means I am too simple minded to grasp a modern day explanation then how can I change that?