“If Jesus were alive today, he’d get more e-mail than any of us,” writes DeYoung, who describes himself as “the worst possible person to write this book.” – The Washington Post
ECPA Book of the Year Christianbook.com
Looks like Kevin DeYoung isn't the only one who's been CRAZY BUSY. Your blog queens have been so busy that we didn't even realize that Kevin's book by that title was recently awarded the Christian Book of the Year by the Evangelical Christian Publishers Association. Here's an excerpt from The Washington Post article which announced the book awards:
“If Jesus were alive today, he’d get more e-mail than any of us,” writes DeYoung, who describes himself as “the worst possible person to write this book.” The tireless pastor blogs, tweets, serves as minister of the University Reformed Church in East Lansing, Mich., and is the father of six children.
“Most everyone I know feels frazzled and overwhelmed most of the time,” he writes. “When we are crazy busy we put our souls at risk.… Setting priorities is an expression of love for others and for God.”
We are well aware of just how busy Kevin DeYoung has been. In addition to pastoring his church, writing books, and blogging, this husband and father of six has been crazy busy speaking at conferences. Here are some of them:
Together for the Gospel 2010, 2012, 2014 (link)
CBMW National Conference – Brave New Movement 2014
Taking God at His Word 2014 (Westminster Theological Seminary)
Southern Seminary Resolute Conference 2014
The Gospel Coalition National Conference 2011, 2013
Worship God 2013 East and West
Rezolution (South Africa) 2013
Marriage Family, and Community and Conference 2013 (Covenant College)
Magnify Conference 2013
RCA Integrity Conference 2011, 2012, 2013
Link Conference 2013
Cross Conference 2013
Desiring God National Conference 2010 2012
Next Conference 2009 2010 2011 2012
Transfer Conference 2013
SGM Pastors Conference 2010
Kevin DeYoung's responsibilities also included serving on the now infamous Preliminary Panel that found C.J. Mahaney 'fit for ministry'. Remember, the identities of the three-man panel were not revealed until the report had been completed… Here is how the Findings from our Preliminary Panel begin…
Two weeks ago we formed a preliminary panel to help us evaluate C.J. Mahaney’s fitness for ministry. We invited several men to participate who had basic doctrinal agreement with Sovereign Grace Ministries, biblical/theological expertise, pastoral experience, and perspectives from a variety of evangelical traditions. Kevin DeYoung, Carl Trueman, and Ray Ortlund accepted.
And these are Kevin DeYoung's Concluding Personal Remarks from the report:
I am the Senior Pastor at University Reformed Church, an RCA congregation in East Lansing, Michigan. The public controversy surrounding C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace has been difficult for many, including myself. I have great affection for Sovereign Grace. I have spoken at various Sovereign Grace events and meet regularly with a local Sovereign Grace pastor in my area. In addition, over the past couple years I have gotten to know various leaders in Sovereign Grace. Joshua Harris is a very good friend. So is C.J. Mahaney. We have had Curtis Allen speak and rap at our church. I have also met with men like Bob Kauflin, Jeff Purswell, Dave Harvey, Grant Layman, and some of the pastors at Covenant Life when I preached there at Joshua Harris’ invitation in the fall of 2010. Honestly, I have experienced nothing but warm, gospel-centered relationships with everyone I have met from Sovereign Grace. Even those I have talked to at conferences have seemed like exemplary Christians—the kind of brothers and sisters I would love to have in my church. All that to say, as much as an outsider can, I know and love Sovereign Grace. In serving on this panel I have tried to be as objective as possible, knowing that some of my friends may see things differently. My conclusions are mine, and, as far as I know my heart, are not owing to any previous connection with anyone in Sovereign Grace. I agreed to serve on this panel in hopes that our small contribution might help provide insight and direction to a family of churches that I care for deeply.
That occurred in the summer of 2011. The following year Sovereign Grace Ministries relocated to Louisville, Kentucky, and C.J. Mahaney and gang 'planted' a new church there as well. Time passed, and a lawsuit was filed against Sovereign Grace Ministries, Covenant Life Church, Covenant Life School, Sovereign Grace Church of Fairfax, Charles Joseph Mahaney, and nine other individuals.
When the second amended complaint was dismissed last May on a technicality (the three-year statute of limitations had expired for most of the plaintiffs and two of them filed in the wrong state), three men from The Gospel Coalition responded publicly. Those individuals were Kevin DeYoung, Don Carson, and Justin Taylor. Here is a portion of what they published on The Gospel Coalition website:
Why We Have Been Silent About the SGM Lawsuit
The Face of the Lawsuit
There are two other facts that may be germane to this discussion: (1) some have tried to make C. J. Mahaney the "face" of the SGM lawsuit, and (2) we are friends with C.J.
Reports on the lawsuit from Christianity Today and World Magazine (among others) explicitly and repeatedly drew attention to C. J., connecting the suit to recent changes within SGM. He has also been the object of libel and even a Javert-like obsession by some. One of the so-called discernment blogs—often trafficking more in speculation and gossip than edifying discernment—reprinted a comment from a woman who issued this ominous wish, "I hope [this lawsuit] ruins the entire organization [of SGM] and every single perpetrator and co-conspirator financially, mentally and physically."
We are not ashamed to call C. J. a friend. Our relationship with C. J. is like that with any good friend—full of laughter and sober reflection, encouragement and mutual correction. He has regularly invited—even pursued—correction, and we have given him our perspective when it is warranted. While the admission of friendship may render this entire statement tainted in the eyes of some, we hope most Christians will understand that while friends should never cover for each others' sins, neither do friends quickly accept the accusations of others when they run counter to everything they have come to see and know about their friend. We are grateful for C. J.'s friendship and his fruitful ministry of the gospel over many decades.
Conclusion
We are not in a place to adjudicate all the charges leveled against Sovereign Grace Ministries or the specific individuals named in the lawsuit. The purpose of this statement is not to render a verdict on the charges, nor in any way to trivialize the sins alleged. We realize some will construe this post as confirmation of their worst suspicions, but we trust most of our brothers and sisters will be able to consider our explanation with an open heart and a fair mind. Our silence was not decided upon lightly; neither was our decision to break this silence. Our prayer is that one day—and please, Lord, soon—all who face injustice of any kind will see the Lord bring forth his righteousness as the light, and his justice as the noonday (Ps. 37:6).
Of course, as we now know from Tullian Tchividjian that DeYoung, Carson, and Taylor did not represent everyone associated with The Gospel Coalition.
Somehow amid speaking at conferences, pastoring, blogging, and defending C.J. Mahaney/SGM in public statements, Kevin DeYoung found time to write CrazyBusy. What's crazy is that this book is devoid of theological rigor which we have come to expect from the Neo-Cal crowd. We would love to know how the Evangelical Christian Publishers Association selected CrazyBusy as the 2014 Book of the Year. Was it based on sales or something else?
Crossway was exceedingly proud of DeYoung's accomplishment, as stated in this article. Here Is a portion of DeYoung's book that the publisher has made available.
So what does the author of the 2014 Christian Book of the Year have planned for the summer? This is what Kevin DeYoung recently announced:
As you may know, last year I enrolled in a PhD program through the University of Leicester….
For the next twelve weeks, I’ll be spending as much time as I can with my family and in the 18th century. It is such a gift to have these months for study, writing, and refreshment. No sermon prep, no elder meetings, no to-do list other than a dissertation that needs to be written in the next three years.
I will be hunkered down in my study most of the summer, pretending that I’m not really at church. Without Sunday responsibilities, our family will be able to take a number of short weekend trips, in addition to our usual vacation with the in-laws. Next week I’ll be on the east coast doing archival work. Here and there I’ll be preaching for a few friends. But for the most part it’s: read, write, relax, repeat.
And what about the internet? Well, I will be trying to avoid her as much as possible. It does the soul much good. And our relationship can be rocky anyway! Look for less tweeting, less blogging, and less interaction with whatever the crisis du jour may be. The plan is to keep Monday Morning Humor going, write a new post for Tuesday, have my friend and pastoral colleague, Jason Helopoulus, do another day, and then see what happens the rest of the week. That’s a lot less blogging than usual, but I doubt anyone will suffer too badly for it. Don’t look for fastidious email replies either.
Lord willing, I’ll be back to my regular schedule in the first half of August. Grace and peace.
Since DeYoung will be avoiding the internet 'as much as possible' in the coming months, this interview with Justin Taylor (of Crossway) promoting CrazyBusy may be one of the few chances you will get to see and hear the Christian author of the year.
And just yesterday, Kevin DeYoung announced on his blog that his church voted last month to withdraw from the Reformed Church in America (RCA) denomination. This is how he broke the news:
On April 27, 2014, University Reformed Church (URC) voted 282-9 in favor of leaving the Reformed Church in America (RCA) and affiliating with the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA).
In response to this post, Joe (#5) chimed in with this commentary:
For a church of almost 450 confessing (voting) members, it seems to me like there were some voices missing in this vote. It is interesting that in the other article referenced you say that “the roughly 450 members of University Reformed Church (URC) in East Lansing, Michigan, voted overwhelmingly” when the vote was 281-9.
Here's what really stood out from that post. We had absolutely no idea about the size of the University Reformed Church congregation until now. Does anybody besides us find it strange that a pastor of a rather small congregation is highly influential in the conservative corner of Christendom?
Speaking of small, the PCA denomination (which in 2012 had just over 364,000 members belonging to its 1,777 churches) is probably thrilled that DeYoung's church is joining its ranks. That's quite a bit larger than the denomination the church is leaving. As of 2012 there were: (link)
907 churches in the RCA (a decrease of 3 from 2011),
150,517 confessing member (a decrease of 1,299),
and a total membership of 238,493 (a decrease of 3,087)
As I wrap up this post, I realize that Dee and I are also crazy busy here at TWW. Between writing our three posts per week which sometimes generate over 400 comments, putting together the weekly EChurch posts, responding to emails, phone calls, text messages, and sending out / keeping up with all the Tweets, maybe we need to read Kevin's book. On second thought, since DeYoung readily admits that he's 'the worst possible person to write this book', I think we'll pass…
Finally, for those of you who will miss Kevin DeYoung's presence on the internet all summer long, here's one more video clip – CRAZY BUSY Behind the Scenes…
Lydia's Corner: Ezekiel 42:1-43:27 James 5:1-20 Psalm 119:1-16 Proverbs 28:6-7
First.
Like circles in the pond after the rock has been thrown, I sense members of the GC will be floating farther and farther away from the center.
Okay, I’m going to be Jerky McMeanieface here and point out that DeYoung does have a choice as to whether he will be “crazy busy.” He doesn’t have to preach at a gazillion conferences, write books, blog, etc. Maybe he does now, because his finances are probably built around the level of income those things bring in. But I assume he chose to adopt that lifestyle at the beginning, or at least accepted it piece by piece as opportunities arose. So I hope the book doesn’t consist of one long complaint ala “woe is me I’m so busy.” I haven’t read it, however, so I wouldn’t know.
DeYoung writes:
"I will be hunkered down in my study most of the summer, pretending that I’m not really at church. Without Sunday responsibilities, our family will be able to take a number of short weekend trips, in addition to our usual vacation with the in-laws. Next week I’ll be on the east coast doing archival work. Here and there I’ll be preaching for a few friends. But for the most part it’s: read, write, relax, repeat."
Ummmmmm, excuse me? Isn't that a violation of one of the 9 Marks of a healthy church? You can't go on weekend vacations whenever you want and not be at your local congregation. Church discipline anyone? What non clergy/elder in that congregation could go to DeYoung and say "hey this summer you know since I've been crazy busy and all, I thought I would just pretend I didn't have church responsibilities so um yeah we are going to take lots of weekend trips and hang out and stuff but don't worry man, we will find some local church where we go to hang out. See ya in August."
Again, let's set the bar high for our congregation but set it low, low, low for us. My BS meter has just begun to spin out of control.
Poor CJ….he’s suffering and in a lot of pain. Choosing to church plant in the affluence of a Marriott Hotel. Just make sure a Starbucks is around the corner! 😛
All that suffering poor CJ….think of how much he’s had to “sacrifice” for the Gospel. I mean the guy who wrote “Don’t Waste Your Sports” is in the world of pain!! He’s homesick for his beloved Maryland Terrpains! He’s homesick for the Washington Nationals! Oh poor CJ…just think of if he’s called back to Montgomery County maybe he can give a “Gospel Centered Deposition” as to what he knew about child sex abuse cover up in CLC. Then he could write a book, “Don’t Waste Your Deposition” and Kevin DeYoung could endorse it!
Lord bless me….Moses led the Jews into the Promised Land. Brigham Young crossed the plains and led the Mormons into the Salt Lake Valley. And then there is CJ…leading the faithful and suffering members of SGM in Gaithersburg to the Promised Land of Louisville!!
Here’s a theological bone to chew on…why would a loving God allow CJ Mahaney to suffer so much for the Gospel. 😛
DeYoung’s comment “Honestly, I have experienced nothing but warm, gospel-centered relationships with everyone I have met from Sovereign Grace” including Grant Layman is telling. It is telling because in the absence of critical analysis and facts, one could easily be taken in by a sociopath. I have absolutely no reason to doubt this was Kevin’s experience. That is how sociopaths operate. They deceive. Which is why listening to victims and pursuing facts is so important. Unfortunately, everything from TGC re: Mahaney has been touchy-feely stuff, e.g. “He is just the most awesome guy and fit to pastor, and blah, blah” (as if thinking people accept assertions like this…it really is condescending).
Two other quick points: 1) I am quite tired of the gospel branding nonsense. There is no such thing as a “gospel-centered relationship.” It is about the most nebulous and empty phrase I can think of. Most adverbialized nouns are nefarious, but gospel is the worst offender, and not merely because it is boorish Christianese.
2) I believe one reason some of those in orbit around Mahaney have responded like unregenerate street thugs is due to the resolution passed last year at the SBC. Not that there is any enforcement power, but it would give the money crowd a black eye.
Robin wrote:
“But listen, this doesn’t mean we can’t make a real effort to be around on Sunday. You might want to take Friday off to go visit the kids so you can be back on Saturday night. You might want to think twice about investing in a second home that will draw you away from your church a dozen weekends every year. You might want to re-evaluate your assumption that Friday evening through Sunday evening are yours to do whatever you want wherever you want. It’s almost impossible to grow in love for your church and minister effectively in your church if you are regularly not there.”
“Have you considered that you may not be a Christian? Who knows how many people God saves “as through fire” (1 Cor. 3:15). Does going to church every week make you a Christian? Absolutely not. Does missing church 35 Sundays a year make you a non-Christian? It does beg the question.”
-Kevin DeYoung, The Scandal of the Semi-Churched
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2013/12/13/the-scandal-of-the-semi-churched/
“I trust that every animal here appreciates the sacrifice that Comrade Napoleon has made in taking this extra labour upon himself. Do not imagine, comrades, that leadership is a pleasure! On the contrary, it is a deep and heavy responsibility. No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?”
― George Orwell, Animal Farm
As a side note, Crazy Busy Kevin was also in Dubai for a conference in March 2012.
http://uccdubai.com/sermons#speaker_user_36
Does anyone know what happened to that bizarre “blooper” video they released accompanying the trailer for that book? Bloopers of Justin Taylor and Kevin DeYoung goofing around trying to get “in character” for their oh-so-important interview. It was so obvious their “authenticity” in the finished product was completely faked, I couldn’t believe the blooper reel had gotten released in the first place.
Interesting. ‘Crazy Busy’ is currently being promoted at my church as a recommended Summer reading, and there are plans to go through some parts of it in my small group in a couple of weeks time.
I haven’t read any of it yet so I can’t comment about its contents. Deb, I wonder if you could expand a bit on the following. You said:
I thought that Kevin DeYoung had come to the Word Alive conference (Formerly known as New Word Alive) in the UK, but I was wrong. However, his books have definitely been promoted there and many of his Neo-Calvinist/Puritan pals have come to give talks. I saw D.A. Carson in 2009, only time I attended, and he returned this year. In theory, they were expecting Piper but it seems he couldn’t do it.
I am revamping my library and I cannot believe the sheer volume of bilge I accumulated as a “reformer.”
They are lightweight volumes, of repetitive theology, and devoid of new academic revelation. Or worse, inventive of new, not so biblical revelation. They are fit only to feed egos, as are what appear to be the faux/DIY PhD degrees conferred so that one may call himself “doctor.” The reformed contingent has to have the fastest growing explosion of “doctors.” If you’re so proud of your academic accomplishments, put the letters behind your name, where they belong.
It is good that Kevin De Young is leaving for the PCA, a better fit. Note that he’s leaving the Reformed Church of America (RCA), a more open wing of the Reformed community. Trad Calvinists are not enamored of the Hyper-Cals or Neo-Puritans. There has always been this type of fundamentalism among their communities, causing division and splits.
To follow earlier comment: I am very sorry that you are getting DeYoung, pcapastor.
I haven't read it either, but I can't help wonder why he wrote this book? If he was so busy, how did he fine the time? And it doesn't appear that he's doing anything to slow down, quite the opposite, as he's just signed up for a PhD! Does he realise how time consuming that'll be? Yet by August he hopes to be back to normal blogging and tweeting?
Sorry, but I wouldn't want to be a member of his church. He clearly spends huge amounts of time on books, blogs and conferences, and I doubt he has anything left for his 'flock'.
Oh, and nice dig at the 'crisis du jour', Kevin. I assume that's an oblique reference to the Nathaniel morales/ Tullian / TGC saga. Just a little mini- crisis that will blow over, that he won't be bothering to comment on, as he's got heavyweight theological concerns now to be getting on with.
I just have to throw in my two cents here. Given Kevin’s expressed warm affections for CJ and all things SGM, how in the world could he have been an objective member of a panel that was set up to determine whether or not CJ is fit for ministry? I don’t get it. They could have easily found panel members who met all of their requirements (basic doctrinal agreement with SGM, biblical/theological expertise, etc.) who were not so warmly affectionate toward CJ and SGM. They could have easily chosen people with no association with SGM at all and for that matter, not so well known in evangelical circles. To me, it just seems like that whole panel was a farce.
@ Traci:
I agree with you, but more strongly. It was intended to be a farce, to provide cover for CJ and to make it appear that outsiders (insiders really) had investigated him and found him wonderful. And with their lack of expertise, any dime-store variety sociopath could have gotten their blue-ribbon seal of approval.
Sorry that celebrity has become so important in Evangelicalism. It can become more important, even at the expense of what is right and true. Pastors like DeYoung may be so enamored of their own celebrity and the perks and flattery associated with it that they deny what is going on in their own midst because false teachers can’t exist in the Reformed camp. Sadly they are as susceptible to Elmer Gantry syndrome as anyone else. Glad I don’t go to their self congratulatory conferences where they laud themselves for being on the winning team.
pcapastor wrote:
At your request, the blooper video has been added to the post.
I didn't find it funny at all. Guess I don't have a Gospel™ sense of humor.
Martos wrote:
The Neo-Cals continually boast of their deep theological knowledge, and though I haven't read DeYoung's book CrazyBusy, it seems somewhat shallow for this crowd.
Plus, it's big on brevity (per the subtitle – a mercifully short book).
Perhaps I'm wrong about the book's depth?
TW wrote:
Whenever anyone complains about how busy they are my working assumption is that it’s a humblebrag. Given this quote from the post where he also admits to being absent from the church he pastors 8 or 9 Sundays per year, I think Kevin DeYoung is also deeply suspicious of leisure and fun. If you’re not always working, you’re not following the way of the cross and should doubt your salvation.
The truth is, if he wanted to be less busy, he could do it easily. He chooses to be both a pastor and to work the Reformed speaker and author circuit. If he just picked one (and his church’s elders should make him), he wouldn’t be so crazy busy. The world would keep spinning, he’d do whichever job he chose better, serve his family better, and maybe spare an hour to sit on his porch drinking a cold beverage. But because things would be easier and he would have to question his salvation.
What a miserable life.
Deb wrote:
But don’t some of their golden boys have a notable dearth of formal theological education – e.g. Driscoll and Mahaney?
@ An Attorney:
Yes, I agree, I think it was pretense.
Hester wrote:
Dang, I needed that laugh!
@ burnrnorton:
That's certainly true of some of them. Kevin DeYoung, however, earned his seminary degree at Gordon-Conwell.
Patrice wrote:
This is a very good observation. We have heard from traditional Calvinists, including professors, who are definitely not thrilled with this crowd.
It was interesting for me. I have always gotten along well with traditional Calvinists in spite of my differences on election/predestination. The debates were lighthearted and all sides agreed that it would be worked out in the life to come. Not so with this crowd. It is a primary issue and they go for blood in their debates.
May wrote:
Nothing to see here…move along now.
An Attorney wrote:
DeYoung and the others were insiders. All of this is proven by the recent actions of TGC’s council. Tchvidjian id not stick to the gospel™ script and in so doing was deemed antinomian and an outsider.
Here is Kevin DeYoung explaining his 'busyness' problem.
I especially feel sorry for his wife and SIX kids. Sounds like he is gone A LOT and very busy during his down time. Now he's pursuing his Ph.D.
My Name is Kevin DeYoung and I Have a Problem with Busyness from Crossway on Vimeo.
Mark wrote:
Precisely my point of view in the TT post I just did. They are not better than every other Christian out there but they sure love to pretend they do it just a bit better than the rest of us shlocks.
burnrnorton wrote:
Awesome comment. There is a lot of “humble brag” coming out of this group.
burnrnorton wrote:
Driscoll does “holds a Master of Arts degree in exegetical theology from Western Seminary.” (WIKI)
Mahaney, his mentor, (he really was) said he barely finished high school. I can believe that.
@ May:
My first thought is that there is a ghostwriter involved. For someone who is truly as crazy-busy as he claims he is, you just don’t find that kind of time to write a book unless you do it over a period of years. Or you shirk your responsibilities in other areas. I think a lot of us know what it is to live an incredibly busy life but very few of us have such an opportunity to take three months off unless it is through involuntary unemployment. I know my fiance is currently working about 60-70 hours a week right now just to make ends meet. He would love a job that allowed him twelve weeks off to spend with his family but alas we only get four days for our wedding and honeymoon (2 weeks from today!). And due to the high intensity nature of his job, he really only gets to turn his cellphone off on Sundays and when he is asleep; same for access to the Internet.
@ dee:
Was that an earned degree? And I say this as someone who makes no claims to deep theological knowledge, but how rigorous could it be if he wasn't required to learn to read at least one biblical language?
Well, he / they should be.
Blecch. I meant to type “he/they”.
Yes, I know I should turn spellcheck back on. (I’d rather be trampled by a herd of tame zebras running from a panther. Not that I have any strong opinions on the subject.).
“If Jesus were alive today …”
Um, I kind of thought he was. That’s sort of the whole point.
I know what DeYoung meant, but poor choice of words for a preacher of the gospel.
Mandy wrote:
Congratulations to you!
In 2009, I reviewed a book DeYoung co-wrote. I suggested that book, Why We Love the Church should have been called “Why We Love Hebrews 13:17 – Obey your leaders and submit to them.”
That was the last DeYoung book I plan on ever reading.
Only a CelebPastor would take a busy, burnt out and mis-prioritized life and turn it into a book deal. After all, it’s ok to be a workaholic if its for the Gospel(TM)
@ Kristin:
Excellent comment!
I’m sure that De Young genuinely does need a long vacation. He does far too much and as he himself says, “I have issues….I wanted to learn what’s going on in my heart and soul that I have this constant feeling of busyness….Maybe if I can, through the Lord’s grace, help myself…”
One hopes he could come to understand that it is wrong/impossible for a human to take on the kind of leadership he promotes. It would actually help him not post stuff like “The Scandal of the Semi-Churched”. It would also be excellent if he came to understand that a big part of his “busyness” problem lies in a misunderstanding of the law in sanctification. lol
Has anyone read this book? Does he say anything like that in it?
Janet Varin wrote:
I actually blogged about this once, calling such volumes “almost books” (not necessarily Reformed, but the entire evangelical publishing complex). If one hasn’t read the classics, how does one have time for these shallow rags?
Hang on, he’s not taking a vacation! He’s not taking a sabbatical to rest and refresh himself. He’s taking a couple of months to get started on a PhD! No idea what the rigours of the University of Leicester are like but a PhD is NOT a break. This will propel him into increased busyness. Talk about crazy busy? It would send any sane person over the edge to embark on a PhD on top of all the other commitments that Kevin has, which Deebs outlined in the post. I speak as someone who succesfully completed a PhD. It was a full-time occupation. And pre-kids, in my case.
Watching that video of him, I was really struck by his lack of joy, his lack of empathy – hard to describe exactly. But his whole though-pattern seemed strange to me. He was giving himself a hard time about his ‘weakness’ of being too busy, writing a book to see if he could see where he was going wrong… He used the word ‘off’ several tines – e.g. ‘Where am I off in my thinking, where am I off in my priorities?’ He added that he would try to ‘help himself, by God’s grace.’ The focus was all on HIMSELF, not on God. I’m starting to sense that something is really ‘off’ (to use his word) in this neo-Calvinist, Reformed theology.
@ Mandy:
Congratulations on your upcoming wedding! Hope the planning is going well 🙂
“Here’s what really stood out from that post. We had absolutely no idea about the size of the University Reformed Church congregation until now. Does anybody besides us find it strange that a pastor of a rather small congregation is highly influential in the conservative corner of Christendom?”
Not really. Although I may not understand the implication pastors of small churches do not lack influence. Jared Wilson of the gospel coalition has only a hundred some members in his church.
Eagle wrote:
“Don’t Waste your Sports”?
Since when has Fantasy Football League been a SPORT?
(HUMBLY, of course.)
TW wrote:
You needed to boldface that quote, TW!
“If I bear a suckling pig,
Though he never grow big,
Yea, his first squeal shall be
COMRADE NAPOLEON!”
May wrote:
Workaholic baptizing his Workaholism with Gospelly Godspeak?
burnrnorton wrote:
Reverend Larry awards Reverend Moe an Honorary Doctorate.
Reverend Moe awards Reverend Curly an Honorary Doctorate.
Reverend Curly awards Reverend Larry an Honorary Doctorate.
NYUK! NYUK! NYUK!
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Yes, he does appear to be a workaholic. He is on record saying he spends 20 hours per week preparing sermons. (No idea how that’s possible).
My issue with this book is that he’s hardly doing anything to address his ‘problem’ with busyness by embarking on a PhD. Quite the opposite. Which leads me to believe the book is merely another publicity-seeking money-spinner for the minions to lap up.
I mean, no idea how it’s possible to spend 20 hours weekly sermon prep ON TOP of all his other commitments, wife and six kids – oh, and always writing or co-writing a book.
burnrnorton wrote:
great term for application to CJ and many others in “leadership”.
I haven’t read Kevin DeYoung’s book, so obviously I have no opinion on its content, which may be very good. But as regards its general thrust, I can’t help feeling that this is a topic already very well-covered by the Christian literature, and that his publishers missed an opportunity.
Specifically, they missed an opportunity to address life situations that have been less well-served by the Christian literature thus far. All the books on time-management, busyness etc etc that I’ve come across have been written by people who have a great deal of choice and autonomy over how busy they are. (Kevin himself, for instance, could surely cut back on his external consulting work if he wanted to.) I would like to see a Christian publishing house help someone who has little or no choice over how busy they are:
Mandy’s fiancé, who has to work 60-70 hours a week to make ends meet;
A single parent, who may have a colossal struggle to make ends meet and can do little to lessen her (or, more rarely, his) current workload;
Someone who is long-term unemployed, cannot find work and is desperately seeking a way to find significance in daily activities that will never support a family;
As per Apple Number 3 above, but replace “long-term unemployed” with “retired”, widowed, sick, etc;
Anyone with a demanding full-time job, and a family, who is also required to put in significant unpaid hours to subsidise the expensive overheads of a motivational speaking business that doubles as their “local church”.
It would need a bold change in Christian culture to do that, though.
@ Deb:
And he looks like a nerdy college freshman.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
But hey; on reflection, that’s what Nones are for, right?
An Attorney wrote:
No disrespect, but that’s one I’d have avoided. Not least because I look stupid too.
I am quite tired of pastors who have to talk about all their busy lives. We are supposed to be so impressed. Why not just be a pastor? The temptation for fame and fortune is too much. As for sticking up for each other they might change the name to The Gospel Coagulation.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Yeah, I know (“too”) – I just re-read that and it was particularly badly expressed!
I have an earned Ph.D., following an earned M.A. Two major research projects, involving a lot of subjects, lots of data to be coded and analyzed, interpreted, placed into the context of the literature of the field, and in both cases, followed up with more research involving more subjects, more data and more analysis, more interpretation and more integration with the literature of the field.
Before children. On a fellowship most of the time, so not outside work to support myself. Four years of very hard work, finished up while in my first year as a faculty member.
Sounds like Kevin is jumping from skillet to skillet all the time and where he will land on this jump there is fire but no skillet.
@ Godith:
You kind of said what I was in part driving at, but you used 81.1% fewer words…
Another self-absorbed man of God.
@ Ty:
Come to think of it, I’m not surprised either. Doug Phillips’ church was tiny but he managed to almost single-handedly brainwash an entire generation of homeschoolers.
@ dee:
We can get matching “Jerky McMeanieface” T-shirts then, since clearly we are both said curmudgeonly character.
There’s also the question of how DeYoung justifies being out of the house so much on the conference circuit, given that TGC and company are so into fathers personally leading their families. Does his family go with him all the time? I assume they can’t do that, given school schedules, unless of course they homeschool and take school on the road. This reminds me of Doug Phillips’ pronouncements that fathers who work too much or spend too much time traveling can’t effectively lead their families in a Biblical manner. And never mind that that would have made it impossible for many men not just today, but historically to be godly fathers (whalers, merchants, etc.).
doubtful wrote:
But enough about me…
May wrote:
But wait, if DeYoung is your pastor, wouldn’t him being too busy for church stuff be a bonus?
Maybe I’m just not understanding, but why would a pastor be getting a Ph.D in Early Modern History? It does not appear to be related to his primary work or even his secondary work (appearing at religious conferences).
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2013/05/07/back-to-school/
Oh yeah, I downloaded that outtakes video so it wouldn’t slide down the memory hole.
@ Hester:
Yeah, his wife is raising their kids, of course. But Kevin, go ahead and take accomplishment away from an unpaid unlauded position.
Because a man can never have enough accomplishments attached to his name when he is a manogawd and a woman can never have too few for the sake of sub-mission.
@ Eagle:
“Gospel Centered Deposition” I lol’ed for real. Well said. 🙂
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
doubtful wrote:
May wrote:
Yep. yep and yep.
Also, perhaps someone who cannot or does not delegate because he may think that he and only he can adequately handle each and every situation. Ego problem.
Or perhaps he has poor organizational skills and cannot plan or prioritize well.
Or perhaps he exaggerates??
Then again, I worked with a labor and delivery nurse one time, back in the day, whose husband was a student at SBTS, and she did his Greek homework and wrote sermons for him. But of course he got the credit and the grade and the degree. You never know what people do behind the scenes actually.
Now, may it never be that I would malign this individual just because I think he has apparently bought into a false ideas of grace/law and justification/sanctification and now seems to be running himself ragged in the process. At some point I am going to have to start feeling sorry for the leadership because it is possible that they do real harm to themselves and do not know any better.
Yes, I am trying to be a nicer and friendlier commenter. It is hard. Know why? Because my father was a lawyer (you all see right here how they do) and I learned to wade into something head on before I learned that diapers were a temporary solution to a temporary problem. Just saying.
Oh dear God, save me…
Kevin DeYoung is quite the busy young man. (I can say that as he’s 37 and I’m old enough to be his mother.) He published another book called “Taking God At His Word: Why the Bible Is Knowable, Necessary, and Enough, and What That Means for You and Me” on April 30, 2014. Of course it comes from Crossway. Of course it’s another skinny little tome (comes in at 144 pages, which is slightly more than the 128-page “Crazy Busy”). And it includes this description:
“Avoiding technical jargon, this winsome volume will encourage you to read and believe the Bible—confident that it truly is God’s Word.”
Winsome. Why can’t these guys just use “attractive” or “appealing” instead of the Victorian-sounding “winsome”?
Mandy wrote:
I’m cynical enough to believe in the possibility that it’s recycled sermon material.
I find it very hard to believe that this man can…
1) speak at every TGC conference (and many others)
2) maintain an active blog
3) write reviews of all the books he’s currently reading for pleasure
4) spend 20+ hours each week in sermon prep
5) pastor a church
6) raise six kids
7) begin doctoral studies
8) actively write and publish books
I’m not accusing the guy of lying. But there’s no way he’s doing all of that. No way at all. Either he’s getting help from a ghost writer, he’s not actually reading said books (i.e. Mohler), or that’s an easy doctoral program.
And can we talk about what that church expects from him? I’m under the impression that he simply shows up on Sunday mornings.
Regarding his books…they are pure fluff. No theological depth at all.
@ An Attorney:
When I watched that video I got a laugh! Next I would like to hear Kevin DeYoung say, “My name is Forest…Forest Gump. Do you want a chocolate?” 😛
An Attorney wrote:
Naah. You want to see “Nerdy” (though High School Nerdy instead of College Freshman Nerdy), take a look at or listen to Womb Tomb Swanson.
Eagle wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQwWaWFjd0Y
ok, so I consider myself reasonably intelligent (though I’m not sure where I’d fall on the Justin Taylor intellect scale), and honestly, I have no idea what was happening in that video. Was it a spoof? Was it real? Was it a mix? If it was a spoof, it wasn’t even moderately funny. If it was real, it was the most disjointed thing I’ve seen. In any event, it was humblebrag.
I have a proposal for TWW and Warren Throckmorton. Somehow after Mark Driscoll and Tim Challies my gut is telling me that there are more people engaging in “Gospel Centered Plagiarism.” I propose that TWW or Throckmorton invest in plagiarism software and just run DeYoung’s book through the system. Something is not right, for someone this busy speaking as much as he is; my BS detector is screaming! I feel the same way about so many others in this crowd. If you ran their books through plagiarism software it would be fascinating as to what you find. My gut feeling is telling me Driscoll and Challies are the tip of the iceberg. And don’t most icebergs have 70 to 80% underwater? 😉
mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Why can’t it be both?
The rules of *CELEBRITIES* are in effect, and CELEBS always use ghosts and stand-ins.
Deebs g
May wrote:
A HUGE understatement!
Deebs and fellow Wartbugers–would you mind supporting my best blogging friend? She wrote about being horribly sexually abused, and a friend of MINE from years ago took it upon himself to call her “bitter” and visciously attack her. Would you all mind taking him to school? :'( http://www.orthodox-christian.com/purity-doctrine-says-sexual-assault-makes-you-worthless/
zooey111 wrote:
I knew that's what you meant and took care of it for you. 🙂
Several random disconnected comments:
* Sadly, I do think the best fit for Kevin DeYoung is my denomination. Unfortunately, I think we deserve each other.
* Patrice, thank you for your sympathy.
* It is not a forgone conclusion that he and his church will be coming into the PCA – there is a process outlined in our Book of Church Order for such things, and due diligence is theoretically required.
* That said, it does seem to be a done deal. His Associate Pastor is leading a seminar at the PCA’s General Assembly (the annual national meeting) this Summer, scheduled well before the official process for being received into the PCA began (not sure if that has even begun, actually). The powers that be have almost certainly assured him that the process will be “accommodating” and schooled him in the secret handshake.
* It is amazing to me how easy it is to be seen as a thoughtful, intelligent, even intellectual person in The Gospel Coalition, the PCA, the whole Neo-Puritan movement. I honestly cannot think of a single one (not Piper, not Carson, not Keller, certainly not any of the men like DeYoung) who would have been a standout at my high school.
* The commenters on TWW are wonderful. I wish all the commenters on TWW could join the PCA, and not Kevin DeYoung.
* Thank you for linking to the blooper reel. You are right, it will very soon be going dark.
@ pcapastor: Thanks muchly for your kind invite (to join the PCA), because I’m sure your church is great – but I think I’ll stick to the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America). 😉 (there’s a funny song called “A Lutheran ’til I Die” on the Prairie Home Companion website that captures some of the humor in that decision, though definitely not the *other* reasons for my choice!)
cheers,
numo
I don’t know that blooper reel is all that sinister. Performers often get a case of the giggles and have to do re-takes. It does sound as though the interview was scripted.
That video is so ridiculous. He could have spend time playing with his kids or fixing something in his house, or doing some dishes, changing a diaper. But I guess he was too crazy busy doing important things like that video.
@ Ralph Cooper:
@ May:
I’ve also recently finished a PhD and I can guarantee that it takes a massive amount of time, effort and energy… It is not something I would like to do if I were very busy with many other things. For the last 2 years it felt like most of my life basically turned around the PhD.
I think I could compare it to the child that would be born out of the marriage of a rollercoaster with a marathon race… Extremely long and twisted. Frequent ups and downs in motivation, with no end in sight for most of the time, are certainly not good to maintain good mental health.
I don’t regret doing it, but it wasn’t an easy undertaking. Oh no.
Maybe we should expect a sequel to this book… Soon, on your favourite Christian library: Crazy Busy 2 – Go Crazier and Busier!
I’m reminded of the time that Driscoll spoke out against certain guys who attended all of his conferences rather than their home churches. The irony was not lost on me then, and it’s not lost on me now. DeYoung just recently tweeted (and I paraphrase)”Jesus rose on Sunday, you can come to church.” Yet this guy is off on a study tour.
A study of a puritan, nonetheless. The fascination continues.
First impressions can be lasting ones. I’d never heard of Kevin DeYoung until I read this: (from the 2011 Next conference, just before Ceege took his sabbatical):
“Have you ever noticed that after Eve sins by taking a bite of the fruit, who does God first address? Adam. He was to be responsible. And yet he abdicated the very authority that he was supposed to lovingly exercise. And Eve, contrary to design, usurped her husband’s authority.”
Did he forget one tiny event? After EVE sins? Hmm… After EVE sinned by taking a bite of the fruit, did anyone else ALSO just maybe sin by taking a bite of the fruit? Some man, perhaps? Curious minds want to know. According to Kevin, all of Mans inhumanity toward God and Man boils down to one thing– the failure to be properly *complementarian*.
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/cj-mahaney/?page=2
@ Julie Anne:
JAS..with your responsibiltiies of school, family and a blog maybe you could write a follow up version to “Crazy Busy” and smack him upside the head! 😛
@ Dave A A:
This is what I heard in Cru and some of the churchs I attended. The real failure in the Garden of Eden was of man. Man failed to lead the woman succesfully in the Garden of Eden and is responsible for her sin. I thought it was noraml…I am still trying to get this out of my system.
@ pcapastor:
OoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaH…Can I join….?
Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease?
After the fun I had with one person from Sovereign Grace from 2012-2013, I would have a riot in the PCA. I could stand up in the meeting with Kevin DeYoung and ask him, “I’m looking for CJ Mahaney’s book on “Don’t Waste Your Blackmail” I believe you endorsed and recommended it to every living creature in existence…but I can’t find it in your bookstore. Can you lend me a copy? “
Eagle wrote:
oops… I tried to read your comment from a distance and thought you wrote “man failed to beat the woman successfully”. That interpretation, of course, is reserved for some of the full-patriarchal types.
pcapastor wrote:
Yeah, isn’t it! I am no bright light and certainly not an academic, but even I can run circles around most of these people’s thought processes. Keller is the only one with any kind of rigor but not of extryspeshul quality.
It’s so weird to me because that’s what they think is exceptional about themselves, what with their oft-spread castigations of others’ lack of integrity, heresies, missing the point, ungodliness, etc.
And it’s even more weird because being academic is not at the center of the Christian life.
They’re simply all kinds of ways wrong!
This link goes directly the DeYoung excerpt: http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/cj-mahaney/post/2011/06/23/Male-and-Female-on-Purpose.aspx
The Creator and Sustainer of Heaven and Earth is very busy. BUT GOD had time to let this be known:
Acts 10:34-35
“…Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:”
DeYoung, if your ears are burning, could it be the cries of the least of these my brethren. You may laugh-off their pain…BUT GOD!
Patrice wrote:
A lot of people I know seem to think Carson is some kind of super brain…is this really not so? It is how he’s promoted.
@ pcapastor:
Do you know of any PCA churches in Albuquerque? A buddy and I occasionally go and attend various religions/denominations services as a hobby, we haven’t done a PCA church that I can recall.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
What a corking list that is!
Two things of note
1. So glad I did not pursue a doctorate….
2. I too am sick and tired of these preachers griping about being too busy….it’s not like other people have ” real” jobs too.
My son averages about 70-80 hours a week as a high school band director. High school coaches often top 90 hours a week, many times working weekends. I don’t hear these people complaining, instead, they put their noses down and work until retirement. These people know what they were signing up for, I knew what I was signing up for teaching AP classes grading essays 3-4 hours every night….I so want to swear here, but decorum here prevents me from cussin’……in seminary and maybe they don’t do this now, but we had professors tell us make time for our families, and that the job is very busy….and sometimes busyness is of your own doing…
I think the next T$G should take place in a Louisville McDonalds…this can be the schedule and the planned speeches.
John MacArthur – Can speak about sound recipes make for sound food. And that in that particular McDonalds you will not find false recipes and in this…the Gospel will persevere.
David Platt – Can speak about how radical a Big Mac can be to the Gospel.
John Piper – His speech can be interrupted by the high school student cleaning the floor that he is speaking on. But his theme can be in how God is most glorified in that Supersize French Fries, and how they are not to be wasted, and if they are wasted that God does not get glorified.
Matt Chandler – Can speak on how growth hormones are sovereignly designed for chickens, and that God’s sovereignty is best reflected in each Chicken Sandwich that is consumed.
Thabiti Anyabwile – Can be the point man on issues of animal slavery in the food industry. There is an explanation, this can be reasoned away. The Gospel must shine and like Jonathan Edwards the Beef Famer in Sioux Falls, SD is not responsible for how he did not treat the animals. The idol must be protected.
Al Mohler – Well…he can drool on the ground that CJ Mahaney walks on.
CJ Mahaney – Well he can take a brief break from the drive through and talk about how man hates “Gospel Centered” food. His hands and arms can wave in a million mph as he attempts to launch his career (literally). And he can boast that while he worked the drive through he made his wife Carolyn clean the restrooms while she is pregnant.
Mark Dever – Well he can be the shift supervisor that pulls all this off. 9 Marks can become a children’s Happy Meal. People can ask, “ My kid wants the 9 Marks”. The toys can be marketed through Crossway.
Beakerj wrote:
Yeah, when I thought about it further, I realized I shouldn’t’ve said Keller, because he is a pastor and his writings are most coherent in a pastorly way, but there are all those guys on Reformation21 and wherever, who use mucho academic prose.
I’ve only read a tad of Carson and ok, but I don’t know, Beakerj…winding obtuse verbiage is tiresome to me, and when I did buckle down to his, I didn’t find it worth the trouble. But I’ve only tried a couple posts and that last year when I was feeling extra grouchy….
I become happily and productively engaged by the gorgeous old oak tree in my front yard, so I do recognize that’s it partly a personality/talent thing.
But then again, NT Wright engages me all the way through. I feel the same about Peter Enns and Scot McKnight, for eg. I’ve even enjoyed Kuyper, yah. So I don’t think it’s all just different gifting.
A person can read every book and have a memory like a trap, and yet be mediocre or downright dingbatty. Some of the silliest people I knew were in MENSA.
I do think Carson would have better work if he were in a more challenging context.
What do you think? Have you tried anything of his?
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
I have been so wanting to start doing that……but in my area there are just so many SBC and Pentacostal Churches you could visit before you’d cry…” Uncle!”
Eagle wrote:
Well, let me try to weigh in on this a bit, just for fun. Maybe you can’t get it out of your system because you are trying to make sense of it. I think there is no sense here to be made. Permit me:
Part 1 (for convenience of reading)
Romans 5: 12-21Eagle wrote:
To me this is a classic example of the problems with literalism. Romans 5:1-12 does indeed say that sin entered the world through one man, Adam, with death as the result. And then death passed to all men because all have sinned. And then it goes on to say this same thing repeatedly in many ways. And contrasts the one man Adam with the one man Christ.
Here is the problem. If one man means the solitary human male Adam, just as it means the solitary male Jesus, and if there is consistency in the passage, then only men sin and only men die. Obviously not. So one must–must–decide what to take literally and exclusively and what not to take literally and exclusively in this passage. There is no amount of “you have to be literal” that will totally get one through this passage, that I can see.
Part 2
Eagle wrote:
Genesis 3: 8-19 has God confronting all three participants in the escapade. He went into the garden and called to Adam (not accused right off) and Adam at that point was found out in the ensuing conversation. He then confronted Eve.. But when God dealt out curses it was first the serpent then Eve then Adam. I see no consistent pattern here with which to create any conclusions. God went in first one direction: Adam then Eve and then He went in the other direction: serpent then Eve then Adam. There is no indication that God blamed one worse than the other or excused either one.
Genesis 3: 22-24 says that God drove the man out of the garden. So, what happened here? Did Eve stay behind in the garden? No. How can this be explained.? This is a story. It may be a true story, it may be a historical story but nevertheless it is told in the way that stories are told. This is not a personnel roster.
So going back to Romans, and noting that Paul said nothing about the order of accusations in the garden or the order of curses in the garden and noting that one cannot take every use of the word man to mean exclusively male human (not without being preposterous) one has to wonder what is going on the minds of those who come up with this other stuff.
We all just need to get over this silliness and move one. IMO, Paul was way too smart compared to a lot of folks, and he assumed that people would understand what he was saying, and if the neo-puritans do not that is their problem.
@ Beakerj:
ISTM, that most Christian intellectuals unconsciously wall off most of the world. They believe they are being unworldly but they end up being non-worldly. Of course, what is found in microcosm is often available in macrocosm, but there’s a huge price paid when huge sections of the world itself are left out, so that’s its not only microcosm but also only partial microcosm.
I’ve always loved the best of the Reformed tradition which sees all the world as belonging to God, not in a “culture war” way, but in a “hey, let’s go see, admire, and get our hands dirty in it all”. No fear since God is everywhere—just curiosity and participation. Being salt.
And this is opposite of the hyper-Cal or Neo-Puritan attitude, which is a form of fundamentalism: separatist, legalistic, authoritarian. People cannot do good scholarship when fundamentalist, IMO.
@ TW:
Your comment noted that Pastor Deyoung had a blog post in which he urged people to attend their local church regularly, not just every few weeks. (Kevin DeYoung, The Scandal of the Semi-Churched
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2013/12/13/the-scandal-of-the-semi-churched/). Your comment was good, as is that blog post. He should have linked the two ideas in his announcement. A sabbatical for a pastor like him might well be a good idea, though, including attending churches other than his own, for reasons that wouldn’t apply to most people. Some thoughts:
1. If he sees how a variety of churches operate, he will see how to improve his own.
2. He will see what it feels like to be a newcomer, if he goes to many churches, or a new regular attender, if he goes to one. He also will be able to worship in humility for a while, smoething difficult for head pastors.
3. He can return refreshed. It is hard to be always thinking of the problems of people and an organization.
Writing a book can be a good change of pace for some people—though it seems to me that doing it for a PhD adds stress and inflexibility without any benefit (I would count the letter Ph.D. as a negative, tempting to pride.)
Excellent comments above!
Just watched the promo video and the outtakes video linked above. The promo video comes off as pretty strange, along the lines of the James MacDonald video interview of CJ Mahaney. Both De Young and Mahaney appear anxious throughout, as if they’re just barely keeping their composure. Is that because they know it’s all for show – all a facade to mask the truth that *everything* they’re doing as “pastors” is a facade? That they know the interviewer could possibly ask a question that would bring down their whole house of cards?
The “crazy busy-ness” in the De Young video (in which he obviously struggles (and after the many attempts shown in the outtakes video!) to figure out how to respond to an email from someone in his congregation, vs. a friend, vs. his own book editor) and the other stuff mentioned above, makes it clear that he shouldn’t have the title of “pastor”, just like Mahaney or megachurch leaders like Ed Young shouldn’t have the title.
They’re not pastors, but something else entirely: Sunday sermon-giver or CEO or staff manager or blogger or conference celebrity or something else. The one thing it appears they’re especially not, in biblical terms, is “pastor” to their congregations. For congregants to call them “pastor” and expect them to actually provide the personal care a shepherd provides is just wrong.
Finally, how weird is it – to us non-celebrity pastors – that De Young would choose to write a book as a self-counseling/analysis project, rather than schedule time with a Christian counselor for some much-needed help? (Are the book editor, blog staffers and personal assistant just enablers to dysfunction?)
ABQ Blue, I found this on google foo. I think it’s interesting that the phone number is NOT New Mexico.
For more information or questions about our church or worship services please contacts us.
Crossroads Fellowship Church, PCA
1017 Santa Ana Ave SE (Church Office)
Albuquerque, NM 87123
(214) 218-7947 (please leave a message)
info@crossroadsabq.com
Don wrote:
This whole comment is very insightful. Thank you!
nmgirl wrote:
I had not heard of this church, but from the website it looks like the sort of place I could feel at home. The PCA is a relatively small world, and as it happens, I know some folks there, who I think very highly of.
Am I the only one, but it just bothers me how some people use the word reformed. Evidently they think the reformation took something and made it better-alright if that is true that would make sense. But what actually happened is that the reformers could not agree among themselves, especially if you get beyond just Calvin and Luther. And the people who now call themselves reformed cannot agree among themselves but seem to make a living from arguing and dissenting and re-aligning allegiances and pontificating on the eternal destinies of some of those who disagree with them. This is better than what?
I assume that Mr. DeYoung is entering into Leicester’s online PhD program. From the looks of it, the program seems to be mighty expensive! (And I don’t think those numbers include travel costs for the 2-3 required visits). I can’t imagine the financial strain for a pastor with a family of 7.
http://www2.le.ac.uk/study/research/phd/education/phd/distance-learning
ScotT wrote:
Ouch! Jesus-juked by your pastor. Nothing like guilt-based motivation.
Robin wrote:
Ummmmmm, excuse me? Isn’t that a violation of one of the 9 Marks of a healthy church? You can’t go on weekend vacations whenever you want and not be at your local congregation. Church discipline anyone? What non clergy/elder in that congregation could go to DeYoung and say “hey this summer you know since I’ve been crazy busy and all, I thought I would just pretend I didn’t have church responsibilities so um yeah we are going to take lots of weekend trips and hang out and stuff but don’t worry man, we will find some local church where we go to hang out. See ya in August.”
I was totally thinking the same thing concerning 9Marks’ legalism, err, I mean advice for pastors & members on how a healthy church functions. I had the privilege of sitting through that ‘Bible study’ at my church.
I really wish there was a sarcasm font. 😉
Cassie wrote:
There is, but it’s spiritually discerned.
@ Eric Rasmusen:
An excellent comment! You could say a sabbatical spent among other congregations would give the preaching CEO an insight into where/how/whether “his church” fits in with the Church.
Mr. H
Assuming it is paid for by him…
Given the logic many evangelicals use of bigger church == better, why is this bothersome? (Ok, maybe given the logic, it is strange…)
@ Beakerj:
OT on Carson’s brilliancy (sorry everyone):
I got curious and went over to Carson’s blog to read a bit. He’s thorough and that’s great. He reads much, retains, evaluates, footnotes faithfully. Also great. But beakerj, it’s. All. About. Calvinism.
So take the following linked post on covenant children and infant baptism. He succinctly sources/explains it and also states that it is a deeply comforting doctrinal set. But infants outside the covenant go to hell (or are under general election) and I didn’t find it comforting even when I was a teen. Only those people who believe themselves exceptional can find such constructions comforting. So why is there no discussion about the exceptionalism inherent in these doctrines? For Carson, if John Calvin or his followers didn’t discuss it, it is not an issue even though it glares within the subject matter. And it’s hugely important—the attitude destroyed much over the hundreds of years following, and still does.
http://calvinandcalvinism.com/?paged=2
In the following link, he calls Sproul’s discussion of limited atonement “complete nonsense” and “infantile”, with reasons to back it, so maybe that’s why Carson is considered formidable.
http://calvinandcalvinism.com/?p=13943
In this last link, Carson goes into limited atonement, again thoroughly, positing that Calvin believed Christ died for all the world but not many would be saved. Sufficient but not efficient, thus not the limited atonement that his followers adopted. And somewhere else (don’t remember where) he made a parallel between that sufficiency and why we preach the gospel everywhere. Gospel for all (sufficient) but in the missional situation, God does the efficient part and we don’t see that until the end. That’s a nice bit of allusion.
http://calvinandcalvinism.com/?p=9440
…..
Yes we need scholars who collate and clarify, but it is not the greatest scholars who do so. The best scholars also do the hard work of translating the material for current considerations. Carson isn’t about that. But NT Wright is, and he also emerges from the Calvinist tradition. I wouldn’t be surprised if he has to make more effort with memory/reading, but in the field of theology, the best intelligence wrestles with the academic material for here/now.
There are far too many academic’s academics, as there are too many artist’s artists. It is the easiest path, really, and it’s most quickly lauded, and that’s why it is done more often than it should. It also is a good way to kill a field over time—turning it further and further inward until it black-holes into irrelevancy.
At least, IMO. (Again, sorry for the OT)
@ K.D.:
Heh. Yeah, we’ve done the SBC and a few Pentecostal churches. Wouldn’t want to see them every week though.
@ nmgirl:
Thanks! It’s added to the list!
@ pcapastor:
Groovy. Is there anything special to know about PCA churches? Do y’all have ritual responses or anything about regular services?
@ Nancy:
Years from now the word "reformed" is going to be as bruised and ugly as the word "Gospel" is becoming and as "Christian" is today. I do wish more of the traditional reformed would rebuke and challenge this crowd more. Especially since they are getting confused with it, and since the Neo-Reformed/Neo-Puritan is redefining the name reformed.
@ pcapastor:
For a lot of people the "enablers" need to get paid and need the money. They are profiting from this system and need to keep it going to make money from it. Its called the "Reformed Industrial Complex" for a reason.
Something about these neo-Puritan guys always reminds me of Prof. Higgins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3mC4485Ue0
IF Jesus were alive today???????????? Wow, guess the celebrity Christian is too crazybusy for proofreading…. Jesus is more alive today than I am, by Him and His loving care moment to moment, all things stick together…colossians….
@ Deb:
Maybe he’s written a book on busyness for the same reasons his good friend CJ wrote a book on humility?
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/dont-delay/201003/the-personality-the-workaholic-and-the-issue-self
will f wrote:
Amen. Alive! And near…
@ Paula:
That definitely occurred to me as I was writing the post. I remember hearing Mark Dever say of his buddy C.J. – "He's not a humble man".
Tim Challies wrote a post about it back in February 2006:
C.J. Mahaney – He's Irritating and He's Not Humble
Eagle wrote:
Until “Reformed” comes to mean “Who needs Christ when We Have CALVIN!”
For those who might be interested, we had some back-and-forth about this very topic back in 2011 over at Boar’s Head Tavern. It was part of a general discussion about the “ordinary pastor” meme, and it included some material Kevin DeYoung wrote back then about Calvin’s work habits. http://boarsheadtavern.com/?s=Ordinary+Pastors
Deb wrote:
😯 Good God!! What is in the kool-aide? Honest about sin? CJ Mahaney? I wonder what Pam Palmer says about that. Let's see….cover up child sex abuse, disrespectful to wife in public forum, blackmail, etc…and that makes CJ honest about sin. I guess that means Ted Bundy respected women.
@ Brian Auten:
Thanks Brian. I'll definitely check that out.
@ Don:
“Finally, how weird is it – to us non-celebrity pastors – that De Young would choose to write a book as a self-counseling/analysis project, rather than schedule time with a Christian counselor for some much-needed help? (Are the book editor, blog staffers and personal assistant just enablers to dysfunction?)”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
just enablers to fulfill a quota of authored books required for a publishing contract. That is the object of the exercise.
@ K.D.:
In our county of about 250,000, we have about 250 Baptist churches, plus a bunch of the usuals, and a lot of COGIC churches.
@ Patrice:
“There are far too many academic’s academics, as there are too many artist’s artists. It is the easiest path, really, and it’s most quickly lauded, and that’s why it is done more often than it should. It also is a good way to kill a field over time—turning it further and further inward until it black-holes into irrelevancy.”
++++++++++++++++++++
just curious — can you describe what you mean by artist’s artist? Also, how would such people turn art further and further inward until it black-holes into irrelevancy? (interesting comment–I want to understand it better)
Eagle wrote:
Oh, but remember it wasn’t plagiarism, it was citation errors. And those weren’t ghost writers, they were researchers.
Anybody remember the the dust up back in the 80’s when it came out that Mel White was ghost writing books of some really famous preachers? This stuff has been going on for years – there really is nothing new under the sun. Well, maybe one thing is a little new – the internet has allowed the pew sitters access to information that would have previously been hidden.
Carson leans on his research assistants heavily. They do a great deal of his writing. There’s a reason no one else in the field of biblical studies – either from secular religious studies departments or other seminaries – publishes as much as he does.
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
It depends on the church (some PCA churches are highly liturgical, like an Episcopalian church, while others have no real structure to their worship apart from praise songs and a sermon), but the church you would be visiting looks fairly typical (which in my mind is a good thing) for a PCA church. Expect a bulletin that contains a user-friendly order of worship and pretty much of a “live and let live” ambience, so that you would be free to participate as you choose. Hopefully, anyway.
@ Patrice: I hear you on academics and artists both. Funnily enough, a “musician’s musician” is usually meant in a complimentary way, though all too often, it’s said of people who have great talent and masterty of their instrument, but spend/t their time in the background.
elastigirl wrote:
Although Patrice can speak for herself, I understood her comment to mean that the black-hole of irrelevancy refers to the reformed resurgence as prisoner of its own gravity so to speak. There is little of interest to the wider world because they cannot (and refuse to) engage the wider world with anything more than cast in concrete dogma, and most outsiders have no desire to be pulled into it. In any closed system, all its devotees can then do is ooooo and ahhhh over each other in a kind of quasi-monastacism that ensures a smug isolation from the ‘other’.
dee wrote:
Good point.
Paula wrote:
Needed to meditate on this verse tonight. Tyfs.
@ elastigirl: if I were to hazard a guess, I’d say that what might be in play here (partially) are those academics and artists who start producing work to be understood and appreciated by their colleagues alone, rather than openly and actively engaging with the wid r world. They end up walling themselves off in a jail cell with no doors or windows, no light and even less air, all the while congratulating themselves and each other on how learned/arty they’ve become. In fact, they’ve refined themselves to such a degree that they *have,* effectively, killed their respective fields by this kind of in-group mentality.
I saw it a LOT when I was a studio art major in undergrad,hand despaired of it in my grad program in art history. I honestly believe that most art departments exist primarily to perpetuate themselves, and the machinery has to be kept in top condition. Never mind focusing on actual creativity, or helping students to *enjoy* learning! Also true, imo, of art museums, though there are pockets of openness here and there. The closed-mindedness of my undergrad art instructors led me to seek relief in the art of other times and places, because nobody can restrict our ability to look and learn and wonder at it all. They can, however, teach it in a very dull, monotonous and profoundly uncreative way.
What I’ve just said is true of many fields of study, unfortunately.
So that’s my take, but I’m just as interested as you are to hear Patrice’s, as she comes from a different part of this than I do.
@ Muff Potter:
I suppose that’s what I was inferring, but in a much less gorgeously articulated way. but what’s an artist’s artist, and what about their art engenders “little interest to the wider world because they cannot (and refuse to) engage the wider world”?
is their art on the indulgent side? expressing the artistic in such a way that it approaches the unartistic, but their ego tells them they are so enlightened that whatever random brushstroke they make is sheer artistry? no matter that no one understands it or likes it (which confirms to them their own genius)?
“If Jesus were alive today, he’d get more e-mail than any of us,” writes DeYoung,”
Kevin, ye daft wee laddie, what the devil are you doing in the ministry if you don’t know that JESUS IS ALIVE?
Good grief! Isn’t that Basic Christianity 101???
Cayuga wrote:
My grandmother would have said 😉 “Great minds run in the same direction”.
@ numo:
“I honestly believe that most art departments exist primarily to perpetuate themselves, and the machinery has to be kept in top condition. Never mind focusing on actual creativity, or helping students to *enjoy* learning!”
+++++++++++++++++++
hmmmm, this is exactly how I see the institutional church.
(and its symbiotic industries–seminaries, publishing, music, marketed sermons, conferences, speakers, seminars, video…)
@ pcapastor:
Excellent, thank you PCAPastor. I like to prep as much as possible so I don’t stand out when I do visit a church. One time following along with everyone I ended up in the communion line and that was embarrassing to realize and walk out of, lol.
I carry out investigations into alleged bad practice by staff, I also supervise others who do investigations. The first thing I establish is whether there is any connection between the different parties prior to beginning the investigation. " Friends" cannot investigate each other's conduct as the results will be tainted by their biases going into the process. The U S A is a huge country, it would have been possible to find people with the required theological views and with no previous link to SGM to carry out a thorough investigation of the charges leveled against C J Mahaney. I find it amazing that well educated men did not immediately decline when asked to do the investigation, knowing C J well was enough to disqualify them.
elastigirl wrote:
Part 1 of 2
Well, we had a spate of particularly weird art in the UK back in the 1980’s including, for instance, an artist simply placing buckets of faeces and urine in an art gallery. The purpose of this was “to challenge people’s preconceptions”. What preconceptions the artist pre-supposed we all have, I don’t know. But of course, it was controversial and attention-grabbing and so it got the art world itself terribly excited.
What makes an artists’ artist, though, cannot be defined, proved or disproved. You and I just wouldn’t understand, because we’re not artists, see? But if (concentrate here) a critical mass of people believe that lots of other people believe it’s “great art”, then nobody dares to question it. That’s why the Emperor’s New Clothes analogy is so often applied to art.
Part 2 of 2
As regards self-reverencing academic black holes, the tragedy of theology is that it should be the love and worship of a living Person. But it is sometimes the opposite: creating a crude artificial model of that Person and then becoming fixated with the model itself. And, of course, banding together in clubs and gangs to argue about who’s got the coolest models.
One thing I’ve learned about worship over the years is that it’s a dangerous thing to do. Personally I do not believe God treats us as babies, and therefore entrusts us with dangerous responsibilities. But if and when we find an expression of worship that really connects us with the wonder of God, then we cannot help but find the experience of worshipping, pleasurable. And that is the trap: we can fall in love with the experience itself, or the style of worship, and get addicted to it, and come to believe that it is God. So instead of growing in God, and learning more about him, we get trapped recycling the same experience. A bit like trying to see our children as cute little babies all the time and never letting them grow up.
It is truly possible to love God with your mind. For some people, that is genuinely their primary means of expression. (For others, it’s not – in the UK charismatic scene, for instance, “intellectual” is an insult or a dismissal, equating to a very prejudiced use of the word “retarded”.) But for a proportion of them, the seductive intellectual pleasure found in musing on some concept or definition diverts them and becomes an end in itself. They love their doctrines, but not their brothers and sisters, and as Paul put it, professing to be wise, they [have become] fools.
Whereas the same Paul said, if I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all knowledge, but have no love, I am nothing, the dead theologian says, this mob that knows nothing about supralapsarianism / premillennialism / substitutionary atonement / the Law – they are accursed!.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Many good thoughts to ponder in Part 2!
In other news (ie: off topic) freshly overrun bodies have been discovered behind da proverbial Mars Hill bus.
See http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/05/28/mars-hill-everett-lead-pastor-comments-about-departure-of-elder-forced-out-over-non-compete-clause/ and related articles.
So much for the kindlier, more fatherly Park Fiscal!
Molly wrote:
We must never confuse well indoctrinated team players with well educated men.
@ Dave A A:
An interesting one there, Dave. I note (as you also probably have) the following at the beginning of the eldership agreement document in question. It was all going OK until the word “and”:
Stop right there.
Nancy wrote:
I don’t really know much about the CJ’s-fitness-panel, but as an observation on denominationally-divided church, this is brilliantly put!
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
With that clause they segregate themselves from the Church AND put their church on par with Jesus Christ. Interesting concept. Unfortunately, they’re not alone.
Aw shucks! Does he have to come to the PCA? That’s where I took refuge from SGM…
@ Bridget:
Sadly, no. If they came out as gay and declared that God supported their choice to express their love for one another, they’d be pariahs in the evangelical community within hours. But when they declare themselves a faction, and that they have divided the church in Washington State according to submission or otherwise to their own executive authority, they are respected by that same community.
Looks like DeYoung’s another preacher and not a minister given that it looks like he has very little time to minister to his congregation – and I wonder how many Sunday’s he takes off from preaching during the year. Just my $.02, but it sure looks like a guy who’s only professional focus is on joining the ranks of neo-Cal celebrity preachers so he can make money on the conference circuit and writing books.
@ elastigirl:
Makes me think of 20th century concert music after it became all about serialism and basically stopped caring if the end product was actually aesthetically pleasing. Not all the music produced after that point was bad, of course, and some of it was really innovative and cool (esp. some of the experimental instruments, like this awesome), but it did effectively cement in people’s minds that “classical music” is difficult, inaccessible and only for eggheads (which it isn’t and doesn’t have to be). Composers self-consciously writing only for other intelligentsia and publishing articles titled “Who Cares If You Listen” didn’t help either.
@ elastigirl:
@ Muff Potter:
@ numo:
What you all said. Thanks!
As artist, when I read Carson, I am reminded of too much art with which I’ve been forced to become acquainted in my career, work that is so far down a narrow alley that only those living in the alley understand it. And yet because those in-the-know (other artists, gallery owners, critics) see this sort of work as the most original stuff evah, it is given shows, bought by the collectors, and eventually winds into museums. It’s a 100yr old pattern.
I can’t remember the name of the guy who set up series of rectangular tables and stacked them with stuffed bears found at second hand shops. (sorry, brain not functioning well). Or whatshisface who put cows in huge vats of formaldehyde. Even from back-in-the-day, think of someone like Sol LeWitt (hah I remembered a name!), sculptured geometry spun and lauded with so many words that one might think the work as genius as Einstein’s theory of relativity. The 60’s minimalists&conceptualists most obviously demonstrated this problem but the issue was not resolved afterwards.
All this work is made for others in the field. A healthy field will always have a few experts who devote themselves to working on behalf of others therein, but when a field becomes defined by them (the artists’ artist, the academics’ academic), it becomes a closed system and loses effect/affect.
And then, what’s left for the rest of us? Yet there is soooo much art that needs making, so much in this world that is begging for it.
The same thing happened, although to a lesser degree, in some areas of academics, although its now been scooped out by corporate/institutional greed. (Carson is one of these academics, IMO.) Fine arts maintains itself by carrying an elitist aroma and the corporate/institutional promoters collect the stuff to display their pseudo-sophistication. A lot of that work, if you know the concepts within, speaks against greed, but it is bought up by the greedy and everyone just stays ironic about it. It’s perverse.
I think US Christianity displays a similar closed system. And its worst culprits, at the moment, are the Neo-Puritans/Hyper-Cals. And when they become the loudest voices with the most books, conferences, sermons, etc., we get what we see.
One sad result is the talent that gets lost in these mazes. Most of the best young artists I taught went the way of elitism. Like Carson. And yeah, we can say that they really aren’t the most talented because they don’t find ways to speak to their world, but still, I think many would’ve learned, if the system weren’t also so inclined against it.
ScotT wrote:
That makes sense. But it is good that he uses them properly, unlike certain others who also make extensive use of them.
But thinking about it, that’s a low bar, isn’t it? We all could make good use of a few assistants…
Elastigirl, numo, Muff, et al, I neglected to split an overly long post and so it’s in mod
numo wrote:
It’s also a compliment in the fine arts—I am the curmudgeon. But maybe also music has more of a straight line to the public simply because people have to sit through the experience, and when it’s too unpleasant/incomprehensible they no longer attend or leave tout de suite….not sure, what do you think?
As Hester points out, there was a time in classical music where that happened prominently and as she says, too, it had value. It’s not that there’s no value in it, but the high proportion distorts into irrelevancy.
IMO the stellar musicians who play in the background do it for love and that makes the whole field better. Wish there were positions like that in the visual arts but it’s not really a cooperative pursuit.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Yes, I agree, and true for all fields of endeavor. Even for those who don’t believe in God, to love and respect the field in which they work, gives honor to He who made it.
And it must go beyond the self, to the love of “that”, for it to work well.
@ Hester:
Preach it!
The second movement of Bach’s Suite no. 3 in D Major (better known, in its arranged version, as “Air on the G string”) is perhaps the pinnacle of European octatonic music.
Patrice wrote:
That would be Damien Hirst.
elastigirl wrote:
I would never conflate what they do with art, but that’s just me. To me art is a celebration of the human spirit, theirs is a beating down of it.
elastigirl wrote:
Someone can get obsessed by a set of symbols as Jasper Johns did, for eg, and then paint those symbols in various ways. The underlying meaning is understood by himself and those conversing with him, or by those who take the time to read about it. But it can’t be seen in the pieces themselves so people will properly wonder why on earth someone would spend years painting huge numbers.
Almost anything can be meditated upon and a great deal made of it. Much of the macro can be seen in the micro. But if the path isn’t embodied, if the allusions/references aren’t envisioned for the rest of us, it won’t be understood by most. Artists can say that’s because of viewer laziness or cultural stupidity or lack of an aesthetic eye, but really, in the end, it’s more often because of artist’s selfishness. Or it’s a misunderstanding by the artist (and his/her milieu) of what makes a piece of art.
Jasper John’s art is actually illustration. It’s meaning can’t be grasped without words accompanying it, that simple. Illustration is considered a corrupted art by many elitists so that idea doesn’t go over very well, but this is a mistake. Illustration is a wonderful art form. If the field would accept this and put the necessary words on the gallery wall along with the illustration, we could engage his work and decide for ourselves whether it’s merely a slather o’ masturbationism or has aesthetic worth.
It is important to call things by their proper name. Lol.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Yes, thanks, and the stuffed-animals-on-tables guy was Mike Kelley.
Not to say anything bad about actual artists, howbeit I know basically nothing about it, but I just want you all to remember that people who have visual hallucinations also think that what they see is real, true and important. Mostly they don’t put it on display, but you never know.
Hester wrote:
Funny you’d mention the early 20th cent. music scene. It must have been especially galling for the snooty to know that a local boy (Gershwin) whose parents came from a Shtetl in Russia, was getting the good press and the kudos instead of their heroes who shat marble.
*apologies beforehand to the Anon on the Cantina thread who hates jokes and goofiness, but I cannot resist*
OP quoting DeYoung,
Jesus would probably have the most followers on Twitter.
Jesus even said in the Gospels, “Follow me.”
The Pharisees might have blocked him on Twitter, though.
To get more serious now.
DeYoung:
I understand a Christian wanting to be friends with another Christian, but what does it mean to have a “Gospel centered relationship” with one??
He sure does attend a lot of conferences. I am guessing speakers get paid big bucks to go to those things.
DeYoung:
If CJ did cover up child abuse for years, you should be. I’m not an expert on everything pertaining to the SGM case and this Mahaney guy, but I’ve read enough the last couple of years to get the picture he did engage in cover up, and his buddies in other churches keep giving him a platform.
Sometimes being a friend means holding another friend accountable, if you know he did not do right.
@ Robin:
Great job at pointing out the double standard!
There was a post here a few months ago where Deb and Dee reposted some church rules or a blog page where the church said that members could not skip any weekends, or no more than X per year.
But hey, it looks like it’s another set of rules for the clergy.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
My thoughts exactly. I posted about it before I read your post.
I’m not sure what it means to have a “gospel centered” friendship, unless he means to say both Christians only discuss theology and hermeneutics?
I’ve known Christians who are like that. You cannot “shoot the breeze” with them about the weather, movies, books, or television shows, no, every single conversation has to be about Jesus, or get turned around back to Jesus in some manner.
As wonderful awesome as Jesus is – and I sincerely mean that – I have always been weirded out by Christians who cannot just talk about “every day” stuff, the Christians who have to turn every single conversation into Jesus- related talk or into Bible Lesson 101.
I suspect he maybe just means, “I’m a Christian who likes being friends with other Christians.”
@ Muff Potter:
I agree with you completely, Muff. How I loved art when I came into the field and I was constantly angry those first years, coming to understand what was being done with it, what was considered “art”. That era gave me my first lessons on how to disagree firmly but with grace. I’m still learning those lessons…
At some point, I decided that if people were going to call something art, I’d respect that but say it’s shabby/cheap art, when it was. I think that’s what one does when in the field but it is always a relief to hear those outside of it calling it like it is.
@ Patrice: I love the fact that music-making is truly a social endeavor, as opposed to solitary (as with writing, visual arts, etc.), though certainly, there is a LOT of solitary practice/learning time involved, and that can really be hard. (Like slogging through a swamp, or a desert, or…) And social dynamics in groups can be very tough, depending on the personalities involved.
But when people are getting along and are in the groove, ensemble playing is a great joy – one of the loveliest things I’ve ever had the opportunity to experience and be part of. (But then, I really enjoy being an accompanist, so go figure!)
As for “artist’s artist,” I hear you, and agree, though I’m sure we have different examples in mind. And I won’t get started on things like the Whitney Biennial, which is just “What the h*ll were the curators thinking?” for me, but it’s such a competitive filed, and people climb over one another to try and get to the top (like Dr. Seuss’ “Yertle the turtle,” which, as y’all probably know, was intended as a comment on one Adolf H.).
Patrice wrote:
Two words: Jeff Koons.
However… I had an Egyptian student (mid-teens) who saw one of his large flower-dogs in NYC and who was absolutely enchanted. She saw with a clarity that I could not, because I was/am jaded about these names who make what I believe to be junk. BUT… what she saw was real.
Her words floored me: “I saw a dog in the flowers.”
There’s nothing else I can add here; she taught me, all through the time I tutored her, and the insight I gained through this *one thing* is one of the best lessons I could ever have had.
@ Hester: The thing is, there’s plenty that’s good in 20th c. concert music, but you have to dig a bit. I have no love for serialism and the kinds of things it spawned, but there really *is* good repertoire out there that’s new (or newish) and that doesn’t sound like a recapitulation of the 19th c.
I once worked in a record store that was known for the depth of its classical catalogue, which is one of the ways I found out about this stuff. some of it does stretch the boundaries of what most folks think of as “listenable,” but that doesn’t mean it’s something to be set aside (imo, anyway).
That instrument you posted about gives me the shivers, as the overtones from things like glass harmonicas literally cause intense physical pain for me. I once had to flee a room where someone was playing a pair of small had cymbals that produced a similar sound/overtone series. It was EXCRUCIATING. [caps are for emphasis, not yelling]
@ Ralph Cooper:
I hear you. ..getting a real Doctorate is real, serious work.
Maybe where he’s going has cake walk classes that can be stretched out over 10 years, and he can take a 6 month sabbatical to just write a long book report?
I don’t mean to be disrespectful to people in the field that mr. De young is taking up, but having heard from folks who have PhD’s and are pastors, and certainly from pastors with “Master’s” degrees (Master’s of being BS artists for the most part), I just can’t take this guy seriously.
@ numo:
What a great story, Numo. And Jeff Koons completely irritates me.
Damien Hirst on the other hand – I LOVE Damien Hirst. 🙂
I also love the insights of Patrice, Numo, Hester and others on the arts and creative expression.
@ numo: hand cymbals, not “had.”
@ Rafiki: Hirst: really?!
@ numo:
Yep. 🙂
@ Rafiki: But why???!
If you’d prefer to continue this discussion offline, please feel free to request me email addy from Dee. I know she has a kazillion things to do, but I just cannot post it here.
@ numo:
I liked the gothic, clinical, madman feel of the sawed-in-half cow installments. And his skulls and insects. Know he’s completed derided for his contribution to the monetization of the art bubble for sure!
@ Rafiki:
I have little respect for the man, frankly. And on one hand, yes, I thinks the animals and shark are interesting, but solely as anatomical specimens.
You know that Hurst has actively pursued plagiarism suits against people who use similar skull imagery? He “stole” it from that famous Aztec crystal skull plus typical Mexican Day of the Dead imagery, so I think he deserves to be slapped w/a lawsuit on behalf of the entire population of Mexico!
The man is, imo, a pretentious and untalented jerk. (That is, of course, the censored version of my thoughts.) Fwiw, it looks like he might well have gotten his shark display idea from someone else…
@ Rafiki: I have a reply to you in moderation – hope you’ll check back.
Post-Driscoll, whenever I hear of some “Book of the Year” I have to wonder whether there’s $200 grand in book juicing-fees somewhere in the mix.
Daisy wrote:
Buzzword Bingo.
When I was in-country, the word was “Fellowshipping”.
Hester wrote:
This is commonly called CREATIVE INCEST.
With The Lure of an Inner Ring best described as a Mutual Masturbation Society, madly in love with the smell of their own (and each other’s) farts. (A lot like the little In-Groups of ManaGawd Big Dogs featured here on TWW, actually.)
Wouldn’t it make more sense to have someone who has figured out how to NOT have a busy life write a book about busyness?
I know I’m stating the obvious, but why would anyone read a book about busyness written by someone who is STRUGGLING WITH IT?
Why not listen to someone who has spent years making the hard choices, weighing the tradeoffs, etc.?
If you are really “crazy busy” do you even have time to read a book?
Robin wrote:
And how did he get the time to write that sucker if he was so crazy busy?
And make all the videos promoting it?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Some corners of Christianity really do like their lingo. “Winsome,” “Gospel centered,” “pray a hedge around,” etc.
And lots of Christians like to “unpack” Bible passages. Are those passages in suitcases on trips that they need to be unpacked?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
The word “fellowship” is probably the single most overused word in UK christianese. We’re fellowshipping together (i.e. we’re a bunch of Christians having some chit-chat before the worship starts) is silly enough. But the absolute nadir of this, as far as I have encountered, was back in Cambridge 20-odd years ago when someone used it as a transitive verb. I.e., If you see any visitors, go over and fellowship them.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Still the very best primer on Christianese evah!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dxo0Yjno3I
While I agree with most of the points of this post I do take exception to two things brought up.
Size of his church. I have become personally convinced that a church that is over 1000 people should split. His church is about 1/2 of that number. So to me it’s just fine in it’s size. Once you get much larger than that you almost have to go to an authoritarian setup just to keep the doors open. Bigger doesn’t mean better. To be honest smaller SHOULD give him more time to lead a balanced life but in his case it apparently does not.
Also, why harp on his looks. This to me is extremely wrong. As long as someone baths regularly and runs a comb through their hair, they pass the looks test. Not everyone gets to look like they belong on the cover of a fashion mag.
NC Now wrote:
I discussed your first point about church size in my post, but I never mentioned anything about DeYoung's appearance. To what are you referring? Thanks.
@ Rafiki:
Saw that clip a while back. They really unpacked that Christianese in such a winsome way. 😉
Deb wrote:
Yeah, I love that video. I like this one even more.
Shallow Small Group
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMyTMTmJU6E
@ Deb:
Sorry how about post and comments.
As to size you said
We had absolutely no idea about the size of the University Reformed Church congregation until now. Does anybody besides us find it strange that a pastor of a rather small congregation is highly influential in the conservative corner of Christendom?
As to appearance there was a series of comments about him looking like a nerd.
I grew up in the area around University Reformed Church (URC) and also went to college at Michigan State University which is literally across the street from URC.
I’m reaching waaaaaay into the memory bank, but the church has always had a certain amount of pull in those circles because of its location near a major university and its former pastor, Tom Stark. Stark was there a long time and had many connections including time he spent on InterVarsity staff in Chicago and Illinois. InterVarsity in Michigan has been fairly Reformed in its make-up (not Neo-Reformed) and if I’m remembering correctly I believe a significant number of IVCF staff members attended or were members at URC while working at Michigan State. The church has never been huge, but I think those current numbers are larger than I remember the church being.
Deb wrote:
That word “winsome” always makes me shrug my shoulders & answer back “Lose some”. 😉 Translation: annoying but I’ve found a way to laugh at it.
Ty wrote:
I agree the size of the church doesn’t strike me, especially coming from a country where 250 members is enormous…(btw can I have a half US/ half UK flag for my comments? 😉
What strikes me, however, in all this stuff, is how it still seems to be about who you know in “gospel” circles, rather than whether you actually have anything “edifying” to say. The church needs to be built up by ordinary and even non-famous people with depth of experience, but I see a lot of superficial and frankly mediocre books being written on topics that anyone with a grain of common sense would not need to read to enhance their Christian walk. Comes back to who you know… THAT is the common theme that disheartens me in Evangelicalism.
There is a real culture of despising small things and not standing up for the least of these: because a leader says it, it’s automatically awesome or true, regardless of what the little people know to be true in reality. I mean the ordinary Christians, of course. God doesn’t despise the least of these.
Kevin DeYoung was obviously too crazy busy to care that his statement of support for CJ Mahaney ignores the facts relatively “unimportant” people have been trying to relate for a long time. The statement he put his name to in 2013 takes things said by people in pain out of context and assumes the worst of the victims- not the leaders who are mandated reporters.
Knowing a lot of little people in ministry, I’ve seen people on the fringes get marginalized pretty much my whole life, I’ve been on both sides as popular or marginalized, and this is the worst case of victim-blaming I know of personally.
If leaders become too crazy busy to fact-check, or to “feed MY sheep” or “take care of My lambs” and prefer cronyism to ministry, maybe they should get out of the way and let humble servants lead. Like I said on FB, I’ve met a few high profile pastors in my time. They are as human as you and me. They too can desire to impress & forget to please God. The point is, leaders are not on a higher plane by virtue of being in leadership. The ones who make it without spiritually abusing others are those who are able to admit when they’ve made mistakes, and face the consequences, however mild or severe.
In this case, being “crazy busy” is no excuse for cronyism and refusing to hear victims and their families out. It’s actually what true ministry is all about: loving the least of these. Otherwise, we’ve lost the plot.
I think this over-emphasis in Evangelicalism on popularity and coolness is drowning out the voices of real people with real needs. It’s fake, contrived, and frankly, I judge a pastor based on how he relates to ordinary people. I feel bad for all the humble servants out there pastoring in such a hierarchically-driven celebrity culture. I don’t think many at The Gospel Coalition would know what to do with Jesus if He showed up at one of their conferences, I really don’t.
“God in the form of this angry young man could not have seemed perfectly sane.” Michael Card
PS- that whole “gospel-centered relationships” thing got me too. Oh come on. can’t Christians be individuals and cut the Christianese?! Would be nice… @ Melody: