The cruelest lies are often told in silence.” ― Robert Louis Stevenson link.
This past February, TWW published an excellent article by Dr Camille Lewis titled Dr Camille Lewis Presents “The Stormy History”: Life at Bob Jones University link. Dr Lewis has been a stalwart advocate of investigation into the sex abuse allegations at Bob Jones University. The New York Times interviewed her and you can read the full story and get links at the mentioned post. It is the opinion of TWW that Dr Lewis' input into this matter was one of the primary reasons that GRACE was invited back to Bob Jones University to finish their investigation.
Shortly after all of this transpired, Dr Lewis went silent. It appears that her remarks on the matter might not have been well received by BJU. Allegedly, they were quite concerned about the post at TWW. It is alleged that BJU may have decided contact her current employer, North Greenville University.
It is vital to understand that BJU is IFB (Independent Fundamentalist Baptist.) In general they think (or at least used to think) that the SBC is too liberal! You read that right. They are a totally separate denomination from the SBC. But it appears that BJU has some clout in the Greenville, SC area and it also appears that they also hold some sway over the SBC. Please read Dr Lewis' original post for some background.
It is alleged that BJU, which is located in Greenville, SC contacted North Greenville University, also located in Greenville, SC. Dr Lewis is currently a professor at NGU. It appears that BJU was quite concerned with the post on TWW. Dr Lewis was allegedly told by her superiors to go silent or her job might be in jeopardy.
Now imagine that! The SBC is cooperating with the IFB! Could it be that the rightward lurch of the SBC makes them more palatable to the IFB or are they making alliances because both have had questions raised about their commitment in dealing with sex abuse within their communities?
It would seem to this observer that NGU would proudly hold up Dr Camille Lewis as an example of just how serious the SBC is in dealing with sex abuse. But, they didn't. So, what does that have to say about both the IFB and the SBC when it comes to this issue? In my opinion, transparency does not seem to be in the cards. I truly that hope I am wrong.
I did call the media department at NGU for a comment but have not heard back from them. If I receive any statement, I will update the post.
TWW wants to applaud Dr. Lewis for her courage in dealing with the issues surrounding sex abuse and Christian universities. She has done so even though she knew this might put put her career on the line. In so doing, she is a hero! The IFB and the SBC needs more like her. Too bad that they do not seem to see it that way.
Please join us in praying for the Lewis family during this time.
In Some Dark Corner in our Land, You Gotta Let Your Little Light Shine
The Moonshiner’s Daughter
One such quality of significant important was the area’s dependency on home distillation and the widespread violence that resulted from the practice. . . . One violent measure that was prominent in the Dark Corner, but relatively unseen in other areas of the State, was the blood feud. The independent nature of Appalachian residents, the isolation of the culture, and the major emphasis on the ties of one’s family set the stage for the birth and the continuation of many generational feuds.
Joshua Beau Blackwell, Used to Be A Rough Place in Them Hills, Moonshine, the Dark Corner, and the New South
Have you heard the one about the difference between a Baptist and a Methodist? A Methodist says hello to you in the liquor store.
I get that joke now.
I live in South Carolina’s Dark Corner. John C. Calhoun gave us the name because ours is the only voting district in the state which did NOT support his 1832 Act of Nullification. “The bright light of nullification will never shine in that dark corner,” he said. For the following generation of Southerners, this “corner” became the prime spot to escape conscription in the Confederate Army. Those draft-dodgers and their kin hung around to put their corn (can’t grow cotton in these hills) to the best monetary use they knew: moonshine.
We have our own folk hero here, our own Robin Hood — “Major” Lewis Redmond. He got his name during the Civil War, not because he was an actual major. No, he was a little kid who hung around the army camp, and like most Southern titles, at least the ones that mean anything around here, he was given that nickname by his cohorts. He grew up to be a symbol of ruthless vigilante justice. When US Marshall Duckworth arrested him for illegal moonshining, Redmond pulled out a hidden Derringer and shot him in the throat. The marshall’s collar button traveled into his gullet ahead of the bullet, and the marshall stumbled to a fresh water spring. As he struggled to get a drink, water gushed out of the bullet hole. Duckworth died, of course, and Redmond was sentenced to execution by hanging. But President Arthur pardoned him . . . if he promised to make ‘shine for the federal troops in South Carolina.
Now some of those draft-dodging, marshall-killing mountain folk got rich on that ‘shine. And when you get rich, you want roots. And roots need nurture or, in other words, education. So the moonshiners built a high school which became a Junior College and then a University.
Right there, at the foot of Glassy Mountain — where the mountain’s oldest church is known for its blood feud back in the day — right there is where the moonshiners built their school, all proper-like, for their kin. Right there is North Greenville University.
Redmond’s great-great-great-great grandson was in my public speaking class last semester at North Greenville University. He told that story for his informative speech. He started by holding up a Mason jar full of clear liquid. He pointed at it and said with that lovely mountain lilt, “This? . . . Well, this is water.”
The class burst out laughing. It was the Dark Corner code he was exposing. And the students all knew it.
They knew it organically. And I’m getting it, slowly.
I looked around and giggled. I have a Mason jar above my fridge just like that. It’s unopened, a gift from I-don’t-know-who. Like a mountain “fruit cake,” homemade and label-less. It’s much more hipster than the bathtub gin my grandfather sent my 4yo mother to get from the neighbors on Lyford Street in 1933 Detroit. “I want some hooch” she remembers saying after she tapped on the basement window.
But you know, every one of my students’ parents probably has a similar jar of ‘shine in a dark corner in a cabinet. We all do. That’s the joke. That’s the code.
NGU doesn’t hide the fact that moonshiners built their campus. But it’s part of that code. “We’re here because the moonshiners started us, but doncha drink, ya hear?”
But everybody does it. And nobody talks about it.
I was raised a teetotaler. In my family in Detroit abstaining was a personal sign of moral fortitude. Alcohol itself did real physical and emotional damage to my mother’s family. Abstaining from it is like abstaining from saturated fats or high-fructose corn syrup. Based on my historical research, I think that’s how Frances Willard presented Temperance back in the day too.
Teetotalling doesn’t mean the same thing here. It’s not that alcohol is bad for you, it’s that alcohol as currency is bad for us. It leads to vigilante violence. The problem is not individual; it’s social. Abstaining is not a sign of personal piety. It’s proof that you can be in a group. It’s proof that you can keep a secret.
Last February 28, the Wartburg Watch published my article about life at Bob Jones University, another Greenville county religious institution of higher learning about 15 miles from the Dark Corner. The day after the article was published someone in that Dark Corner approached NGU President Jimmy Epting saying that I was gossiping about the Jones family. This was the last in a long line of complaints about me, as I understand it. There had been 3-4 anonymous phone calls and another identified caller: the Bob Jones University Public Relations Director and former South Carolina GOP darling Randy Page.
Randy Page called some NGU administrator to say that because I was “attacking BJU” and I worked for NGU, NGU was, therefore, attacking BJU. Vice President for Academics, Randall Pannell proposed to me on March 4 that I “take a pause” while I was in NGU’s employ. And I did. I paused my scholarship and my media interviews and even my “likes” on Facebook and my commenting here at Wartburg Watch until May 5th after turning in my final grades at 5:05pm.
I have published quotations from that March 4th meeting, if you’d like to see them.
But the curious part to me is that he compared my public “pause” to the alcohol restriction for employees at NGU. He compared my speaking from my academic expertise and speaking out about the ongoing sexual abuse investigation by GRACE to consuming alcohol. His exact words were:
Maybe I can use this alcohol thing a little bit more as a possible thing. I do know and I’ve had people say with some of our adjuncts, “Well, I do occasionally like to have a glass of wine or something like that, but when I am teaching for North Greenville, I will not. Is that okay?” And we say, “Well, we don’t say that you never, ever have, just that you can’t.” . . . the metaphor [between speaking out and consuming alcohol] is very similar.
Putting on my rhetorician’s hat for a second, the grammar of that metaphor is as follows: speaking out is like drinking alcohol. We write it like a math problem:
Speaking Out // Drinking Alcohol
Then we rhetoricians look at the other ideas that collect around those terms. We “round it out” to discover the “terministic screen.”
Producing Scholarship // Consuming Alcohol
Abstaining from a Public Voice // Abstaining from Public or Private Consumption of Alcohol
Silence for Employees = Piety for Employees
Silence = Piety
Public Voice // Alcohol
Adding in the fact that anonymous phone calls were made and unidentified (to me) people were targeting me specifically as the problem, we can continue to round out the grammatical analysis:
Anonymity = Piety
Group identification = Piety
Self-identification = Impiety
And then we smash it all together and see what the terms look like together:
To be pious, one must abstain from alcohol and public self-identification as an expert. To be pious, one may choose to be silent or be anonymous in reporting on another’s impiety.
We could go on. In this ethic, however, there is no moral problem with anonymous phone calls and whispering campaigns. Institutional policy can be forged from them. Gossip really isn’t the problem either. Being public is the problem. Speaking “out of turn” is the problem. Being alone is the problem.
And silence, the ethic assumes, is the solution.
So that’s what teetotaling means up here. That’s the code. And it’s no joke.
Silence is what keeps this corner dark.
The February 12th New York Times article prompted BJU’s spokesman Randy Page to call NGU. The Times was reporting on Bob Jones University’s firing of their sexual abuse investigators, Boz Tchividiian’s G.R.A.C.E.That was the catalyst. I was talking publicly about sexual violence, so the PR man talked secretly to my employer.
Kathryn Joyce also interviewed me a week before my gag order and published her fine analysis in the American Prospect just hours before my silence was done.
Joshua Beau Blackwell wrote his master’s thesis on the Dark Corner. He initially explains the “blood feud” code of conduct.
The folk interpretation of Appalachia holds that the feud tradition is a remnant from the colonial settlement of the Scots-Irish and the English. However, the blood feud and inter-personal violence can also be viewed as a supplemental quasi-law in areas where the court system was weak or nonexistent. This was usually a manifestation of what the offended perceived as right and within the moral order. . . . the use of extreme violence lasted longer in the Dark Corner than in other portions of the State.
Violence keeps the “peace.” Or more precisely, a quiet and dark violence maintains a veneer of peace.
It’s no different than that August 1891 gun fight at Glassy Mountain’s Mountain Hill Church, the climax of a blood feud between the Gosnells and the Howards after Howard’s employee beat up Gosnell’s daughter the prior Sunday.
Did you catch that? A woman was beaten by her family rival’s employee, and the result was a shoot out at Sunday morning worship.
What’s changed?
God help us in this Dark Corner in the middle of a county burned-over by the fires of “revival.”
Thank you, Camille, for speaking truth. For being brave. For standing for “the least of these.” God bless you.
First?
@ K.D.:yep!
@ K.D.:
You might be first, but i got something to say!
One of the Hatfields (of blood feud fame) was in my class in med school. In fact, he “rescued” me from what could have been a really bad situation, or I think it was about to really turn ugly. That was on the western side of the appalachian mountains a ways.
After we settled in at a little town in eastern NC, not too far from where the Deebs live, and once at a christmas open house, they had some white lightning in the kitchen and took me out there. I tasted it, hoping it was of the same quality as the peach brandy somebody had made at home and also brought. Trust me, home brew is the nastiest mess you ever want to try. The taste is horrible. The feel is like pouring rubbing alcohol on a fresh wound. But one thing about it, the thrill of doing something illegal is kind of exciting.
My son, while an ADA in a western district of NC, told me that no matter why one’s relative was in jail the family always claimed it was because the ATF caught them making illegal stuff. That’s because it was kind of a badge of honor to be in jail for whiskey, but nobody thought stealing or battery or robbery or child abuse was honorable. Back in the day the best of the best NASCAR drivers developed their skills racing around narrow two lane mountain roads with a full load. My daughter-in-law’s father did some local racing in his day, partially supported his family with the winnings. Didn’t have anything to do with outrunning the feds, though, they tell me.
I tell all this just so nobody would think that this stuff is long gone from the culture. Not in this little old state just north of SC.
But the truth is, if I can gloat over the fact that nothing out of my little garden gets taxed in any way, I can see why somebody would be glad their whiskey did not get taxed. That’s not a good enough reason to go blind or scar down your liver or hemorrhage from your esophageal veins or get dementia or or or. But I can see where it has its appeal. The taste is not one of its appealing aspects, however.
Now you know. I believe every word about this current mess in SC. Every word of it rings true, true, true. If Camille wrote it all up in a novel it would make a good movie.
@ Nancy:
And just if you thought I read that in some book or made it up or something, let me tell you one more little cultural thing that nobody could make up. Out in that little place in the eastern part of the state there was a yearly gathering of good ole boys, actually affluent middle class business men and such, who met out on a farm and had a barbecue-like event, except it was for the purpose of eating chitterlings with fresh cream. I don’t even want to know what they washed it down with.
And this, the post and what I have said and who knows what else is, as far as I can tell, part and parcel of the south.
@ Nancy:
So basically it’s like an episode of Justified or Dukes of Hazard out there. 🙂
Remember the John Piper/BJU connection. You can take the boy out of IFB but you cannot take the IFB out of the boy. That is why Piper is so legalistic as in his book, 100 Things Jesus Demands…
@ burnrnorton:
If you are in the right place at the right time, and if you watch and listen, some of it is there to be seen. I don’t think that strangers are in danger at the local motel or anybody dresses oddly or such. I do think that the attitudes and values about things like whiskey and taxes and racing are still here and pretty widespread. But, hey, I was out in the kitchen where they had the mason jars, so who am I to talk.
I keep telling all you non-southerners how incredibly diverse the south is, at least around here it is, well this is just one aspect of it.
I have read Camille’s (pardon the familiarity) blog posts of recent days and I have read the above. I believe that BJU committed defamation against Camille, unless someone sat down and carefully worked out what to say that would have the effect without being defamation. If the latter happed that indicates that that person at BJU conspired with the administration at NGU to have Camille terminated for exercising her First Amendment rights.
In any case, NGU has in fact violated her rights as an employee in what purports to be an institution of higher education affiliated with a denomination that allegedly values, nay prizes (at least historically) freedom of conscience and freedom of speech to share that free conscience. What NGU has done is totally contrary to the Baptist tradition in Western Europe and the United States.
I am hoping some local attorney with expertise in relevant areas of law will make themselves available to Camille and her spouse.
God bless you Camille, I am praying for you and yours.
Dee —
I’m assuming that from the picture down is written by Camille?
Is Camille no longer employed at NGU by her choice? NGU’s choice?
Was her husband employed there as well? If so, what is his status?
Why do these circumstances have the feel of the underground christian mafia?
Godith wrote:
A few months ago, when I became aware of Piper’s connectionto BJU, Piper suddenly began to make sense (from his perspective). He’ll never be sensible to my mind, unless he has a drastic change of ideology, but he makes sense in his own world, among his own people, among their own idealogy. I think most of the ideology has more to do with culture and tradition than in has to do with Christianity and being a disciple of Jesus.
Is this the longest thread title ever?
An Attorney wrote:
I don’t want to intrude here, but your experiences with baptist-dom have been apparently different from mine. When our group came back from that summer in western africa, we came back with instructions allegedly relayed to us from the appropriate people at what was then the Foreign Mission Board of the SBC as to what we were “allowed” to say and what we were to keep silent about. Basically I had a couple of trays of slides, a great presentation worked up, and a partial “gag order.” There was nothing legal about it, of course, and no threats but the idea of only say what we want you to say was clearly spelled out.
There is nothing new under the sun.
@ Godith:
The John Piper connection is whaty distrubs me so much. Becuase he is pushing in mnay ways IFB theology…which is being adopted in churches and denominations far from the IFB. I think of the Evangelical Free Church of American as one example. When I was in an Evangelical Free in 1999/2000 we had a co-ed summertime Bible study led in part by a couple of females. Here in the DC several of the EFCA are under the Gospel Coalition influence and ae hard core fundementtalist.
burnrnorton wrote:
Or a darker version of John the Balladeer without the supernatural elements.
Nancy:
I’m familiar with Manly Wade Wellman’s weird fiction, written when he lived in the mountains of North Carolina. As far as I know, he wrote in the actual dialect of that part of the Former Confederate States. In his fiction, he uses the term “blockade” for ‘shine. Is or was this an actual local term?
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Have you checked the Guinness Book of World Records?
In Sicily they call this La Omerta.
And where you find La Vendetta, you find La Omerta. So the Others (i.e. the Outsider authorities) never find out. What happens in the mountains stays in the mountains, whether those mountains are in the Carolinas or Sicily.
Here’s the oddest thing about BJU: They call the SBC or did call them “too liberal” but the infamous IFB college Pensacola Christian (publisher of the A Beka Cirriculum) Has gone on record as calling BJU too liberal. All of this aside, the saddest part here is that in Western Advanced “civilized” America, (And trust me if you’ve ever read an A Beka or Bob Jones cirriculum book you’ll see how the U.S is praised for being the greatest most civilized country in the World) where the BJU, IFB, and SBC God have supposedly helped bring women in to excellent status; Women are still regarded as second class, designed to throw away and must share some responsibility for their abuse. And it seems like the leaders are very happy to cover it up as more than just an embarrasment. They bury it in a corner with all the hidden liquor.
Or “Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend”?
Or Close Ranks against the Other?
There’s a Arab proverb my sister-in-law told me, from a culture with its own intense tribalism and blood feud tradition:
“Me against my brother;
Me and my brother, united against our cousin;
Me, my brother, and my cousin, united against the Other.”
@ Nancy: Which decade? If after 1975 or so, there was some serious defensiveness and after 1985 or so, there was a new order that, I believe, would have told you not to speak at all except to women. BTW, my sister was all over Africa setting up True Love Waits programs, beginning with Uganda in 1994.
@ Nancy: The dedication to freedom of conscience dates long before in one side of the Baptist tradition, 300-400 years ago and into the early post-revolutionary war period here in the U.S.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I have no idea, but I will ask around.
The manner of speech in the mountains has almost completely died out except for some pronunciations and a few residual words, or so I read. For that matter, I have never seen a stereotypical mountaineer except as the logo for Appalachian State University. Some parts of the mountains are high-price retirement areas for people from elsewhere. There is some clannishness I am told, but you can find that anywhere. During the civil war the mountains were a hiding place for people fleeing conscription, and the western part of the state tends to vote somewhat differently from the eastern part of the state.
But for all that it is an awesome place to visit, We have been known to go camping at a place up on the Blue Ridge Parkway (known only as “the parkway”) and other than the fact that the mobile phones don’t work up there, and the fact that there is an occasional brown bear and possible copperheads, it is perfect. Everybody knows that God made trees and rhododendrons but man made concrete.
@ An Attorney:
The fifties.
@ An Attorney:
Far be it from me to say that anybody might say one thing and do another, especially not a beaurocracy.
First of all, as I have said before, the IFB is going defunct, and all the fundamentalists are finding room in the SBC (sort of a consolidation of resources). We will see more and more cooperation here as some of the SBC leaders put power and privilege ahead of sound doctrine and doing what is right.
I also wanted to alert you to breaking news – as in, it hasn’t broke yet, but will shortly. Mike Zachary of uber-fundamentalist West Coast Baptist “College” has been erased; it looks like he is going to be brought up on charges of abusing young men (possibly minors at the time; in the state of California it is rape either way). No surprise, he is associated with FBC Hammond.
Nancy wrote:
Yeah, that ‘s what they want.
The old days of ” Leave it to Beaver” with Ward and June Clever. It wasn’t that good back than, and I taught most of my career in a school district that still wanted it to be 1954. ( when I first went to work in my AA school district, I noticed my classroom flag still had 48 stars….in the late 1980s.)
Blacks still under Jim Crow, women in the kitchen making meatloaf and from scratch mashed potatoes and homemade apple pie for dessert…..and make those potatoes lumpy? Dad gets to give mom a black-eye….and the cops do nothing….they might even blame her, and what’s she going to do? Leave? Job schools are limited. Unless she has a RN or teacher’s certificate, she’s stuck, or she can make no money and become a secretary….
I can remember men in the late 50s, early 60s who wouldn’t let their wives even vote….
Yes sir, good old SBC, women can’t preach, can’t be deacons, can’t serve on many committees…..it’s still 1954 for them….and they want to stay there….
There is much closer cooperation between the SBC and IFB communions. The SBC is now in cooperation in missionary ventures with the BBFI, the Southwide Baptist Fellowship, and the World Baptist Fellowship. Churches that left the SBC decades ago have rejoined the SBC and some churches that were never members of the SBC such as Falwell’s church have joined the SBC. It doesn’t surprise me because some SBC churches are King James Only are Landmark and have church members who homeschool their children with Bob Jones curricula. There is a blur of line between conservative SBC churches and those in IFB denominations. So the response of Bob Jones University and a SBC associated college to a critical professor doesn’t surprise me.
@Mark
Mark wrote:
There are a wide number of SBC Church based schools that utilize the BJU and A Beka based School Cirriculum for their children as well. If Southern Baptists claim to be lovers of Christian Education, why use textbooks that refuse to teach truth about nearly evverything?
@ K.D.:
No, actually it was the fifties. It did sound like I was making some statement, and it would have been clever, but I meant the actual fifties. I graduated high school in 1952 and when I went to west africa I was an RN in fact. Only, I don’t remember it as being all that bad. Lots of people have commented, and David Halberstam did write that book, but the living of it was a somewhat different thing in my experience. And in telling us what not to say, they meant when we took our slides (that was the tip off in the original comment) and gave our presentations (mission talks) in churches or wherever. They wanted us to get speaking invitations, that was part of it, but they just wanted a measure of control over what we said so as not to discourage people from giving money to missions. At least that was the reason we were given. So saying women were not allowed to do speeches or presentations in church? That was not my experience. My main complaint is with the content of what they wanted us to “not tell.” We would have been left misrepresenting what we had actually seen. As in deception. As in don’t tell it like it is. That sort of thing.
The racial situation was worse then than now, but in my town the university closed it’s separate facility and sent everybody to the main campus, and nobody thought anything of it–in the fifties. But there was Jim Crow, just not on campus. I remember some folks set up Crow Jim they called it, and the rest of us on campus just said, yeah, well, ok, whatever. Later things got worse all around, but just not right at that time and in that place.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Thank you for letting us know. Makes me sick.
@ Nancy:
I am assuming that everybody knows what Crow Jim is. It means blacks only, the opposite of Jim Crow. We had some larger lecture auditoriums where the blacks staked out the first few rows of seats, declared it Crow Jim and filled up the seats. I don’t know what other people thought, because I never heard it mentioned, but I thought that yeah, I would have done that too had I been in that circumstance.
TWO QUESTIONS:
A) Is Dr. Lewis an adjunct?
B) Did Dr. Lewis express her dissatisfaction with BJU on Facebook?
*
Any clarification?
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Its not even on Google yet.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
And in Christianese, it’s HOMOSEXUALITY(TM), the Unpardonable Sin.
That’s why he’s been memholed.
doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunperson.
Re the OP: This makes me so mad I could spit! I am so sick of bullies throwing their weight around.
Nancy wrote:
Dr Nancy,
I stand by the 1954 remark I said. I saw it everyday in my last 20 years of teaching in rural East Texas….and the charge to stay that way was led by the two largest SBC churches in town.
Most of the membership did not understand why many of the girls left town for Dallas or Austin or Houston. ” They should have stayed, found a good man and gotten married or gotten a job teaching First Grade. ”
I heard one of the two “major” pastors lament his not understanding why a couple of his ” innocent girls” had left town and were attending UH ( that’s the University of Houston for the uneducated) and major in engineering….( both are chemical engineers now)
Yeah, there are folks who still want 1954…. More than we care to realize….
dee wrote:
Never fear; apparently David Gibbs is on the case…
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
For who? The alleged perp, the school or the victims??
@ Bridget:
The school, of course :-/
Allegedly…
Bridget
Good question!
Vleholmes wrote:
@ Through a glass darkly:
Apologies for the non-post. I am on an iPad and accidentally touched the reply and post comment buttons…
@ dee:
Isn’t he representing Lourdes as well? He doesn’t seem very consistent with his representations.
Did you see my questions upstream?
Nancy wrote:
Nancy, I’m curious. Having been on some African missions myself, what was the information they felt would discourage people from giving money to missions?
Bridget wrote:
David Gibbs III is representing Lourdes. This guy is David Gibbs Jr.
There is something else I need to add. The people of the area are not ‘poor’ or ill educated. Don’t know if that is some myth taught at BJU, but, I remember my father’s late business partner’s wife, a teacher who was born in the early 1900s, telling my mother that locals did not go to BJU. Students sent there, were almost always from out of state. The girls were quite often sent there to either land a preacher spouse, or as punishment because they were too wild. Greenville has an excellent history of education and higher education. People who live there, just don’t go to BJU.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
No, but I have measured the “Recent Comments” list (which shows the last 20 comments) on the RHS of the home page, and it occupies three screen-lengths.
@ K.D.:
That is interesting. I think east Texas on the one hand, and Louisville, KY on the other hand may be slightly different in some way. I have never been to east Texas, but my mother grew up in Sour Lane, TX, a little place down near Beaumont. The stories I heard from her and her siblings sounded very different from what I knew. I just wrote it off to a different time period, but I may have been wrong. Of course, there is the country vs city difference perhaps. I don’t know. I am thinking that there was no such thing as the “fifties” but that there were many different fifties, just like here in NC. We moved from the eastern part of the state to the western part of the state and in doing so changed subcultures in striking ways. So I believe what you are saying, and I think you should consider that what I am saying may also be correct.
@ M. Joy:
I am not going to get into the details, but basically they wanted us to just tell the “good” part and leave out the “bad” part. The whole idea being that if people thought there were “problems” (and there certainly were) they would cut back on their financial support. Within a relatively short period of time the government of the host country moved in and removed some missionaries from the field (or so I heard from sources that were probably but not certainly good sources) and maybe that helped.
That is all I am going to say about that. Some good people had to make some changes they perhaps did not want to make, and no need to dig that up now.
SJReidhead wrote:
Not really. And my situation points to the problem.
Greenville, SC is the largest metro area in the nation that does NOT have a public college or university (http://greenvillejournal.com/local/2774-usc-upstate-s-focus-is-building-programs-not-facilities.html). Anderson County to the south of us has Clemson, and its SBC university Anderson University has maintained academic freedom.
Sure, you can go to Furman, if you can afford it. Furman’s great! But it’s private.
No, in this county, if you want a degree at an institution of higher learning, you either have to get out, get rich, or get religion.
And you are incorrect about locals not attending BJU. According to the statistics just reported to the state of SC, 27.9% of BJU’s enrolled undergraduates list SC as their home. That’s about the same percentage as Furman. So BJU is as organic to Greenville County as its beloved and expensive Furman.
Now North Greenville University’s SC enrollment this past year is 76.9%. So yes, many more “locals” are attending NGU. But with the odd connection that this event reveals between the schools — with VP saying “We’re operating at [BJU’s] mercy.” — does that matter?
I get the myth that Greenville wants nothing to do with BJU. But when you look at the county government and its complete dominance of BJU administrators and faculty, you get a different picture. When you consider that the local media almost entirely refuses to report negative news . . . when you consider that when I went to the police to report the 4-year long harassment I have received from them (culminating in this latest stunt), and the officer refused my report and said that BJU’s actions were “perfectly respectable” . . . you don’t have a complete picture of this Greenville County.
Greenville doesn’t get to disown BJU. Sorry.
Camille
I finally found a moment to come here to thank you all for your kind words and support. Thank you so much.
Dee pointed out that I forgot to tell the details of the story. Oops! 😉 My husband, who was a full professor at NGU, and I, who was just a temp adjunct, are not returning to NGU in the fall. I doubt NGU would have kept me on, and so we can conclude that it was not a good fit. I finished out the semester as I promised. The conversations around my employment, however, there were just a small part of my husband’s decision.
We both have employment. Just not in Greenville County’s higher education.
Thanks so much. You can contact me privately at queenlewis at gmail dot com, if you wish.
SE Texas, east of Houston, but including a strip up the east side the state that is largely national forest, has been among the most racist parts of the country (google Vidor, Texas). History of lynchings, dragging people to death, etc.
Texas is a big place and we have so many different cultures that no simple statement fits across the geography nor time. We have mountains, deserts, swampy rain forests, large metropolitan areas, high tech, piney woods, cattle ranches, some of the flattest places in the world, and a hill country that is very dry except when it floods after a torrential rain (most of the rainfall in an event or two each year, and with no soil it runs off).
We have a large number of cultic religious groups, more Baptists and varieties of Baptists than any place else, more megas and in most communities, scads of little churches (e.g., more than 150 Baptist churches in a county with less than 250,000 people), plus a goodly number of other churches. We have “Jerusalem on the Brazos”, aka Waco, Mega church central (the Dallas, Ft. Worth Metroplex), and, in San Antonio (5th largest city in U.S.) more extreme political right wing patriarchial churches than I have fingers. If you can’t find it in Texas, and it doesn’t relate to extreme cold, you won’t find it in the USA!
Pingback: A Time To Laugh--On Saturday He told me just what to say | A Time To Laugh–
@ An Attorney:
That is seriously interesting information. My mother’s people lived up a shell road on the edge of an oil field while grandfather did the best he could, not having succeeded as a professional photographer. They were poor beyond talking about, but grabbed on to education as a way out. East Texas education, which they never criticized that I heard.
For a minute let me go back to our prior conversation about baptists trying to silence people. Check me out on this, my memory may be incorrect. Was that not exactly what happened to Wade in his little dust-up with the mission board? I forget what the issue was–maybe it was the prayer language fracas? Anyhow as I remember it Wade refused to be silenced.
Help me here if I am wrong about this.
@ Nancy:
You are right about that. It was about missionaries having a private prayer language.
Once, long ago, I shared a room with a much older pastor as we attended a state SBC convention. When he prayed, flat out on the floor, he would moan and make other strange noises. So whatever that was, I did not consider it any of my business to interfere or to question.
BTW, until the “takeover” or “resurgence” in the ’80s, as an adult, I attended the Baptist state convention (SBC) in whatever state I lived in, most years. And I have often attended the Baptist General Convention of Texas annual meetings since, as Texas has not been taken over by the movement that was spawned by a Texas judge and the now head of SWBTS, rather those people have their own entity, but most churches are still dually aligned.
@ An Attorney:
by dually aligned, I mean one of a couple of things. Both SBC and BGCT, but many are financially supporting or “aligned” with the SBC, Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, and the BGCT.
@ An Attorney:
For those who who think, life is a comedy;
For those who feel, life is a tragedy.
In other news, I am about to go and repair my lawnmower (I think there’s a problem with the carburettor). The downside is that, at the time of writing, I have no idea what I’m doing. The upside is that, with perhaps a few Laurel and Hardy moments on the way, I soon will.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
This is not guaranteed to end well, btw.
In the country where I live, the locals have a saying: “The nail that sticks up gets hammered down.” I imagine this plays out very naturally in competitive work environments, in office politics, or among some junior high school kids. But to see this happening to an intelligent, conscientious woman for nothing more than speaking the truth — to see her being treated like this by fellow Christians, and at institutions of learning — is unspeakably disgusting. The attitude of Randy Page and of the Lewis’ former employer is either hopelessly immature, or just plain evil.
Dr. Lewis, I’m glad that you and your husband are out from under their thumb, and that you have new work. May God continue to bless you and give you courage.
An Attorney, and Dr. Nancy,
I started not to write this, and I may be ” banned for life ” afterward.
SE Texas is where I am. If it were not for both of our elderly mothers, we would leave.
I graduated from the town’s high school in which you suggested everyone google. And yes, racism is there, not as bad as it once was, but pretty bad. I went to pick up a girl for a date in high school. and across the highway from their home that evening was a KKK Rally. I went home rather than go to get a pizza.
I was teaching in the same county in which the James Byrd dragging death occurred. I knew a juror in one of the death penalty cases.
It is still bad here. The county in which I reside still has a huge ” dry” section in which alcohol is not sold….There are five high schools in the county. Three of which are near 100% white.
It is a different world here……Newton County which is a 2 minute drive from my house has one of the lowest number college graduates in the U.S. ( I think one county in New Mexico may be lower.)
I know the ” Dark Corner ” of SC is pretty bad, but I often wonder why in the world I wound up here?
@ K.D.:
Oh dear goodness. How did you do that? Teaching is hard enough, if what my daughter says is accurate, but dealing with all that other mess–I conclude that you are some kind of tough inside where it counts most.
K.D. wrote:
When I was in the eastern part of the state at many times I wondered how in the world I ended up there. I used to say to Himself, what are we doing here? I am up to my eyebrows in some cultural ideas (we never had no female doc in this county before) and I could not see how that was my battle to fight. I never foresaw that-not coming from where I came from. So I used to ask Himself, how is this my battle and how is it Your battle? I never got an answer. Sometimes we don’t. That does not mean that it might not have been seriously important in the Lord’s eyes, it just means that I never got the pat on the head that I thought I needed. No certificate of accomplishment ever came in the mail, so to speak. We were there for fifteen years. You have been there all your life, sounds like. I can’t fathom how hard that would be.
Okay, so let me send you a certificate of accomplishment.
CERTIFICATE OF ACCOMPLISHMENT
TO: One tough guy who was faithful and brave.
FROM: Lots of folks who benefited from it, and from lots of folks who see it and recognize it.
GOOD WORK
Nancy, KD, An Attorney: So glad my family escaped out of East Texas. Even so they must have been one of the never fit anyway families. My paternal grandmother’s family included Obadiah in the 1880 census. My Great-grandfather had inherited the family farm and still had other siblings living with him. Obadiah had the same last name as the rest of the family but someone at the census bureau put a question mark next to his race which was black. I’m sure he was related but not quite sure what the relationship was. We also have “cousins” in Oklahoma that are Cherokee. Anyway, my parents left Texas in the early 50s and later lived in California where my Dad went to Golden Gate Baptist Seminary. My Dad was involved in the civil rights movement in the late 50s and women had leadership positions at our SB Church in Oregon in the 60s. I can remember women preaching at our church when I was growing up. We had a black woman who was our music leader and her husband was a deacon at our church. Yep my Dad was definitely a different SB preacher. I thought of all these women leaders at our church as my mentors and am glad that I had my Dad and these women as my role models growing up.
@ Camille K. Lewis: There’s Greenville Tech http://www.gvltec.edu/index.aspx, Clemson is maybe 45 minutes from Greenville. SC is education rich. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_South_Carolina It isn’t intellectually honest to point to BJU as the only education choice for the area. It has no reality. As for the county council, most are Baptist. That is absolutely nothing new. It reflects the location. The chairman is from BJU, is one other member. If any school was to have a lock on the council it would be either Greenville or Tri-Co Tech. Gvlle Co is terribly conservative – esp. the northern part of the county. It always has been. It is the nature of the beast.
BJU is a very small school with only 3800 students according to wikipedia. Gvlle Tech has nearly 16K students. They are local. To state that 27% of about 3800 students are local is something like 800 or so. That’s not much, considering most of Gvlle Tech students are local. BJU is ranked #13 in the state.
I read the linked article, which is so flawed. It presents Greenville like some seething hot-bed of illiteracy, which it isn’t. http://www.forbes.com/places/sc/greenville/ It is an international region when it comes to attracting business and industry. http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2012/real_estate/1204/gallery.US-Cities/9.html
I’m not trying to take your article apart. If you had left out that first paragraph, which is just plain wrong, you would have an incredible piece. But – there is a very distinct reality of the situation. Here in NM, we have one of the highest demographics of people with Ph.D.s We also have the worst economy in the country. SC was hit, badly during the recession, primarily because of the former crack-pot governor who actively discouraged business and opportunity in the state. It is starting to bounce back. But – the state is based on industry and the technical education system, which is one of the best in the nation, is set up to reflect that.
Also, the region is small. Greenville may not have a ‘real’ university downtown, but Clemson is 45 miles down the road. The entire area is honeycombed with major highways. People commute, they travel around the state, and the tendency in SC is to try and not attend college where a person lives. I now live in a state where educational opportunities are not near as good as those in SC. The poverty rate here in NM is the highest in the nation. When comparing NM to the upstate of SC, you go from a state which is hemorrhaging jobs, to one where there is a good possibility of finding one. What I’m trying to say is that BJU, in the way of things in SC, is not very important. It is an ultra conservative religious institution with a tremendous disconnect from reality. One of the real reasons it is ‘important’ in the local arena is because of the way the BJ family gobbled up local real estate, like PAC MAN. I remember the community that existed before they began buying up that part of town. Now, it exists to serve BJU, which is just plain weird, when one considers how small the school is. They bought shopping centers, strip malls, motels – making a fortune.
Please, continue exposing the history of the school.
I grew up in the ’50s and early ’60s in a rather moderate SBC church in Ohio. We did start mission churches fairly often, actually working on two places at a time with the hope that one would become a church. And the church my spouse and I met in was also fairly moderate at the time. Deacons recommended allowing women to be elected deacons, but church voted it down, fearing loss of property to more conservative state convention. In both places, it was considered necessary to both emote and analyze wrt God and our life as Christians. Now both are rather to the conservative side of Baptist thinking (or maybe emoting)!!!!.
@ Wisdomchaser:
You were so fortunate. I wish that my children had been able to have those sorts of influences at church when they were young. Best I can make out, eastern NC is not on the same level of difficult as east Texas, but none the less those influences were missing. From what I gathered from my mother, the poverty they experienced in east TX was such an issue that not much else of what was or was not going on in east Tx got through to them.
But while we are doing relatives, I have cousins of some level of kinship who are mormons in Idaho. I have no idea why I said that or why I think it matters. (grin)
@ Nancy: It does appear that rural east Texas was rather impoverished. My Dad used to talk about the last winter before they lost the farm in the depression. Black eyed peas and corn bread; morning, noon and night. My grandmother put cardboard in her shoes so my Dad would have shoes to wear to school. But I figure it turned out right because they moved to the town where my parents met.
Also, both my first husband (deceased) and my current husband have lots of mormon relatives. I remember a cousin who decided to do a family get together just so she could get all the family on her genealogy chart for the mormon baptism thing. We laughed because as Christians we didn’t need her getting baptised for us.
__
North Greenville University President Dr. James (Jimmy) B. Epting,
Respectfully,
Why did Linwood Hagin issue a “cease and desist” gag order to Dr. Camille Lewis, on behalf of North Greenville University?
Q. Has North Greenville University covered up sexual abuse as well as allegedly Bob Jones University has?
Discerning minds wish to know.
Why did Linwood Hagin threaten to discharge Dr. Camille Lewis next year if she fails to adhere to the NGU gag order concerning alleged BJU sexual abuse?
You said: “This is one way Christ makes the difference at NGU: There is no one to stand in the way of the progress of the Gospel Truth, no one to put stumbling blocks in the spiritual paths of our student body. ”
http://www.ngu.edu/admin-staff.php
Yet your University is now putting stumbling blocks in the paths of Truth and Investigative Reporting, a first amendment right, guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.
Please reconsider your actions.
Is your University expected to maintain a lifestyle consistent with Christian moral standards. Many are now questioning your University commitment to those standards.
Please respond.
Is NGU really a Christ-centered environment when gaging those who would seek to uncover the truth of alleged sexual abuse on a major Baptist University, to bring relief and justice to those who’s sexual abuse stories have already been told, whose abuse has been documented to have occurred under a formal investigation?
Again, please reconsider your University actions concerning Dr. Camille Lewis, and the unfortunate victims of alleged Baptist university campus sexual abuse.
—
I have been reading, off and on, Camille’ s blog for quite a while now. I ran into it when talking with a friend about whatever happened to Dr. Ted Mercer, who was fired from the Bob Jones English faculty shortly after we graduated. Lo and behold I found Dr. Lewis’ blog which detailed the whole thing, even a letter he wrote to the grads about the whole thing. Very sad, and extremely shortsighted.. the firing I mean. But, one day she published a paper on Keswick Christian philosophy, which she believed permeated the teachings far too much of many churches and religious institutions. It woke me up; it really is a joyous thing to know that being a Christian is not about me and my feelings. She had several fine things on her blog. Did I miss what her situation is at her university now tho? The introduction used “appears” and “alleged” quite e few times. Do we know what actually happened?
@ Wisdomchaser:
Not meaning to get off topic, but just had to chime in re. East Texas. Fortunately my mother got us out of there when I was younger, but I remember her telling me about the horrible racism that existed, this would be Vidor, in the early ’80s. I still have family that’s there, though I don’t have much contact with them. Interesting your comment about mormons there, my fath. and moth. converted right before I was born, then after my father died, my mother when back to her people (to central Tex.) and I guess got us off the mormon rolls. Funny how it’s this East Texas genealogy line that I hardly have contact with that was my admission to DAR!
@ An Attorney:
I went to watch the news on TV, but was early. On was a show called “the Texas Bucket List” that was showing the Worlds Largest Rattlesnake Roundup, in Sweetwater, that annually shows off 3,000 lbs or more of live rattlesnakes. They offer fried rattlesnake meat, rattlesnake products, etc. The snakes are milked for venom, humanely killed, and then skinned (for boots and belts, etc.), dissected for organs and meat, etc. Rattlesnake venom is being researched as a possible cancer treatment. They have this roundup every year, and thousands of people attend.
@ Sopwith:
Excellent letter, Sopwith! I might actually send NGC such a message myself.
Camille K. Lewis wrote:
I am going to nitpick on this one fact, Camille. Clemson U. is in Pickens County. It used to be in Oconee County until they set Lake Hartwell as the border between Oconee and Pickens.
I think one of the issues with BJU’s political influence in the county is because of its “orbital churches”. Even if a Council member didn’t attend BJU, they may very well go to a church pastored by a BJU grad.
SJReidhead wrote:
Camille isn’t being dishonest. She is pointing out the reality that Greenville doesn’t have a PUBLIC university. Yes, it has Greenville Tech, but that is a two-year school, not a four-year one. They have 16K students because they take just about anyone. (Yes, I know this for a fact. It’s nothing against the school’s programs; many of them are tough and thorough–like my daughter’s graphic design classes. However, they do a lot of remediation to get many students up to a level which can handle those programs.)
Greenville also has the University Center, where more than one local university holds classes. Unfortunately, you can’t complete a Bachelor’s degree there. You can take some of your classes for a major, but nowhere near all.
Then there are the larger private colleges: Furman (former SBC), NGU (current SBC) and, yes, BJU. (There are also a number of smaller Bible colleges/seminaries in Greenville–Holmes College of the Bible comes to mind.)
Greenville is, however, situated between two public universities, as you’ve mentioned: Clemson to the southwest and USC-Upstate to the northeast. Both are roughly the same distance away (though the commute to and from Clemson feels longer because only part of the route is expressway). This proximity, more than anything else, is likely why Greenville doesn’t have a public university. You don’t have to go far to get to either of them.
Full disclosure: My daughter is Greenville Tech A.A., 2012, USC-Upstate B.A., 2014, and my oldest son attends Clemson, class of 2016. My youngest has applied to all three schools. My husband is BJU, B.A., class of 1988 and I am BJU, M.Ed., class of 1987. My B.Sci. is from a state university in MA.
__
“The blood of Jesus: lighter than a feather, stronger than death?”
hmmm…
Jesus is the sum of God’s love for us.
huh?
They killed Him, yet by His blood are folks set free, – those who believe in His name.
What?
I’ll take some of dat! 🙂
*
Happy Mother’s Day !
http://www.ftdimg.com/pics/products/14-M2D_330x370.jpg
Blessings!
Sopy
___
‘Comfort’ on Mother’s Day: Sarah Hart Pearsons – “Nothing But The Blood Of Jesus…”
Inspirational relief: Handel, Messiah – “Hallelujah”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NNy289k6Oc
Bonus: Vivaldi – “Four Seasons”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRxofEmo3HA
—
SJReidhead wrote:
Right. And I didn’t. This whole article above is about North Greenville University.
Greenville Tech is a technical school. It’s not a public college. It’s not a college.
I’ll say it again because I didn’t say it. Local newspapers have reported it. Greenville SC metro is the largest area in the country without a public college.
It’s not accurate or intellecutally honest to misrepresent what I said. Clemson is in Anderson County. Anderson County Greenville County. South Carolina Greenville County.
We’re talking the actual facts here. Not perceptions. Please do not say I’ve said what I haven’t. I’ve been quite clear.
SJReidhead wrote:
Bob Jones University has 2400 undergraduates.
SJReidhead wrote:
The Greenville Journal article?
USC Upstate at its graduate-school graduation yesterday announced to the audience that USC-Upstate is the only public college in the Upstate. And it’s for graduate degrees only. Is he being intellectually dishonest also?
__
Ops!
Here is the link to Sarah’s song: Nothing But The Blood Of Jesus…” that is missing from my post above:
@ Sopwith
Sopy
__
‘Comfort’ on Mother’s Day: Sarah Hart Pearsons – “Nothing But The Blood Of Jesus…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT4DYXnfGto
Added Bonus: Sarah Hart – “Wonderfully Made”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7elYo4Av3Q
🙂
—
SJReidhead wrote:
Why is it so important to insist upon this all the way from New Mexico, to misrepresent what I have said, to distort the facts, to dismiss county lines, to conflate the difference between a technical college and an actual baccalaureate-degree, to toss out local journalism all to prop up the myth that every thing is oky-doky in Greenville County. Why?
Is insisting that BJU has no pull whatsoever really that important?
THAT is what I’m talking about. Right there.
Tikatu wrote:
Thanks for that. I just looked at the map. Even wikipedia isn’t clear on that one. ::headspinning::
@ Sopwith:
Thanks, Sopwith! Let me know if you hear anything. If my theory is accurate up above, you won’t. Silence is piety.
@ Camille Lewis:
I can think of a nice place for a State University to start a new campus if the property should become vacant 😉
__
“Funny, Somebudy Rained On Your ‘Testimony’?”
hmmm…
@ Dr. Camille Lewis ,
I am so sorry ‘these’ certain calloused individuals hurt you.
(tear)
You have faithfully and un-selfishly assist in advancing the cause of abuse victims on Christian campus’ through-out the land, and have strengthened their voices as well,
Thank-you.
*
“Our sweetest songs are those that tell of saddest thought.” – Percy Bysshe Shelley
(sadface)
Sopy
__
Mallory Bechtel : “Don’t Rain On My Parade…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8e8PRjNg0c
Barry Manilow -” I Made It Through The Rain…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6myRZoB68-U
Barbra Streisand – “Send in the clowns…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghd5weu5Mpg
🙂
—
I am missing the importance of this one particular point here that people are talking about, and that is which colleges and schools are exactly where.
Where I live (a town of about 200,000 or so) we have one state university (traditional black school) PhD granting, one up-scale high price baptist university (PhD and MD and JD with a granting with a “divinity school” whatever that is), one small non-baptist denominational college which was formerly a residential school for affluent young women (bachelors and masters only), one large state community technical college (tech and college transfer), one IFB college/bible college (accredited for bachelors), local classes from a non-baptist denominational in a town about 20 miles away, some classes from a state university about 2 hours away (limited targeted program) and one or more “store front” bible schools. There may be more, who knows.
So if you do not want to go to the traditionally black university for racial/ethnic reasons and you do not have the money, or did you get admitted if you do have the money to go to high-price U, and you want or need to go to a state school, you have to drive about 30-40 miles down the road to a large state university in the next town over. In this case the next town over happens to be in another county, but what on earth do county lines have to do with state universities?
I don’t see a problem with this. I have not heard from people or read in the paper any complaints about this. Education is one of the biggest industries of this town. The only real “fights” over political this or that or money are between the two large medical centers, and sometimes they really go at it. Driving 30-40 miles to the next town is inconvenient and the price of gasoline has gone up but otherwise, so what.
BTW, the idea that some business “owns” a town is pretty much part of the american scene. Here it used to be divided between the tobacco industry (Reynolds) and the textile industry (Hanes) both of which were good citizens, and both of which are no long the really big dogs in town. That said, we need the rich people’s schools right along with the other schools for the sake of the economy. How this differs from Greenville, SC (except perhaps for the actual mileage to the nearest acceptable state U) has escaped me, other than the fact that BJU has been what it has been and is what it is, which is certainly not my cup of tea.
Dr. Lewis: If you get your way to shut down this school, what will happen to all of its current employees that you have written you care so much about on your blog? I met a former student of yours — or your husband’s, not sure which — who said you used to be vehemently against any kind of alcohol and any kind of contemporary Christian music and you were very vocal about criticizing anyone who enjoyed these things. Is this true? Did your upbringing make you respond this way? When did you change your mind? What are your plans now for work? Will you finally be able to get out of South Carolina?
@ Camille K. Lewis:
Just wanted to express my gratitude for your courage. You are an inspiration to me, and I am keeping you in my prayers.
Cerah wrote:
Can I ask you why you assume that her goal is to shut down this school? You either agree or burn it down? Is there no place for change?
Cerah wrote:
Camille Lewis has no control over what BJU chooses to do or not do. They are independent to make their own decisions. If something happens to the school’s viability, that will be a result of the school’s choices. You can’t put that blame elsewhere.
What about all the people who have been harmed by the actions of this school, Camille Lewis included?
From my knowledge of scripture, the people whose hearts have become hardened, refuse to acknowledge their wrong actions, and change their behavior in a way that would bring justice and peace, are the ones who usually suffered severe consequences.
I’m sure there are many wonderful people at the school. It’s wonderful people keeping silent while leaders do as they please that is part of the problem. Wonderful people sticking their heads in the sand is never helpful.
For the record north Greenville is not (SBC). It has no formal or legal affiliation whatsoever with the (SBC). The (SBC) has no say whatsoever with what goes on at North Greenville. North Greenville is affiliated the South Carolina Baptist Convention which makes its decisions apart from the (sbc). If you’re going to publish this garbage then be sure that it is accurate.
I love your paragraph about justice and peace. It would be nice if Dr. Lewis articulated her end goal for her crusade against these schools — maybe she has and I’m just not aware of it. I was just curious.
I abhor when any people assume they should or have a right to control someone else — regardless of what side of the fence you’re on. I was just asking some questions and hoped for answers. Thank you for your response! @ Bridget:
@ Cerah:
Your approach stinks. No one wants to shut down a school. That is ridiculous. But no more ridiculous as some of the behavior of the school relative to the issue of sexual abuse on the campus. The problem is that there needs to be a change in policy and implementation that will only follow a change of hearts and minds in the senior administration of the school. And that is generally true of many, many schools.
@ Tim B:
The SC Baptist Convention is the state affiliate of the SBC. And while the SBC does not control the SCBC, they get along quite well and share a great deal of attitude and approach to issues. I am not aware of any SBC undergraduate school, other than those associated with an SBC seminary, as in on the same campus or under the same administration. E.g., Boyce with SBTS.
BTW, Boyce was operated as a means to help pastors who did not have a college education to learn more about the Bible and church related matters, and receive some credit recognition for doing so. Somewhat more recently it has become a place where students are in residence for the duration.
An Attorney wrote:
@ Sopwith:
Love the Shelley quote Sopy!
Cerah wrote:
I can’t shut down a school. I can’t control anybody but myself.
Next time you talk to this former student that I have hurt please ask him to contact me so that I can make amends. queenlewis at gmail dot com
Thanks, Cerah. God bless.
Camille Lewis wrote:
Thank you for responding!! I guess I was hoping that you would affirm that shutting down either institution has never been something you wanted or looked for.
But, I thank you for the email — I will pass it along!
Camille Lewis wrote:
Isn’t this the same BJU where Republican Presidential Candidates made Pilgrimage on their campaign kickoffs to secure BJ-number-whatever’s Blessing for the assured Christianese vote? De facto Kingmaker by Divine Right does NOT sound like “no pull” to me.
Tikatu wrote:
And as I cited just above, don’t forget its use as a Pilgrimage Site for Republican Presidential Candidates seeking Pope Bob’s Blessing Ex Cathedra. Like when BJU gives its Blessing, the fix is in with God or something.
Lola wrote:
I remember hearing some stories about Beaumont, TX, and looked up Vidor:
Bedroom-community suburb of Beaumont with a reputation as a major-league Klan Town.
Cerah wrote:
I’m curious, what magic words are you looking for? And why? Does she also have to affirm that she stopped drowning kittens for fun?
Cerah wrote:
What? Not trying to be rude, but it sounds like you have a reading comprehension issue. Assuming texts mean anything objective (I don’t know, you might be a committed postmodern), I don’t see how anyone could infer this from anything Dr. Lewis has written. Perhaps you are importing your own biases into the conversation?
burnrnorton wrote:
Why wouldn’t she want to? From what I can tell online she’s very big into transparency and motives for why people do things. Why would she want to be cagey about that? It’s not any kind of answer she wouldn’t demand of anyone else. Do you not care about the answer?
@ Cerah:
Cerah, I thought no one or comment could be more ridiculous than your first one here, but this one tops that by far. THERE IS NOT ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE THAT DR. LEWIS WAS ATTEMPTING TO DESTROY BJU! She, and many others, are only wanting them to deal with the issue of sexual abuse on campus forthrightly instead of sweeping it under the rug.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I’m sure you are right! I don’t know what those biases may be, but of course I could be. I probably shouldn’t have joined in this conversation. I just wanted some clarification and answers and knowing that Dr. Lewis is a rhetorician, I thought she might be clearly answer them. It’s my fault. I was looking to see which sides were different, but we are all the same.
BJU has been a point of contention for a long time. I suspect that is so for a lot of reasons, probably some of them not good reasons. For example, at one time we had one–that would be one–couple who were BJU grads at a little church where I was at one time. That couple were pretty far out, and proud of it. So, of course, BJU and everybody associated it got the reputation of being far out, intense, and way off the chart. That would be ridiculous to conclude anything from such a small sample, but that is how people do.
So let me say that it would not be fair to Dr. Lewis or to any BJU grad or whomever to make the assumption of hyper-intensity or way-far-out-ness or whatever based on some prior and unrelated experience. Specifically it would not be fair to judge anybody’s motives without specific evidence for doing so. People’s public actions and public statements are up for debate, but motives and intentions and desires and hopes and wishes are not for debate without hard evidence for doing so. There is no hard evidence for thinking that Dr. Lewis is some sort of pathologic ( omitted ). She seems to be an academician doing academic things in an academic way (I googled her, of course.)
In that case it would be legitimate to disagree with her statements but mean-spirited foolishness to question her integrity.
The North Carolina Baptist Convention is aligned with the Southern Baptist Convention. They haven’t declared their independence. A school that is under the authority of the North Carolina Baptist Convention is Southern Baptist. The issue is not jobs or other issues but what is right. Political collusion between BJU and North Greenville University to silence critics of sexual abuse is wrong, unless you feel that sexually abusive organizations and churches should be praised. The line in the sand is drawn: either you are the right side of history, which is the biblically sanctioned right of children not to be sexually or otherwise abused, or you will fade with the infamy of your approval of such behavior. I see a lot of support for such abuse in the IFB and the SBC. Support is by silence and defensiveness of sexual offenders at all cost. It takes so much evidence before a sexual offender in either camp spends a short time in incarceration. Sometimes politics gets the offender of without any jail time. Of course there is the possibility that radical theologians in either camp will find exegesis to support their silence, like we have witnessed twisted theology on other issues.
Of course I don’t know my Carolina’s, but any institution under the auspices of the South Carolina Baptist convention makes no difference. It is Southern Baptist.
@ Cerah:
Except that your “question” is a transparent attempt to poison the well. Nothing in the text or subtext of her public record on this subject indicates that she is trying to shut down the schol. So she would have been well advised to ignore your question as the type of bad faith mudslinging it is. But she didn’t. She answered, point blank, saying she can’t shut down the school, which normal people interpret to mean it’s not her goal to shut down the school, especially in the context of a total absence of evidence to the contrary. But apparently that hasn’t satisfied you.
Is everybody aware of the case of Dr. Mike Adams of UNC Wilmington? He publicly criticized his own university in ongoing biting and satirical and totally politically incorrect ways and the university “punished” him for it. And then the Court “punished” the university for punishing him. Whatever you think of Mike Adams or his ideas or his methodology, the finding in his favor was a step in the direction of protection of freedom of speech for university employees.
The last people on the face of the earth who need to be silenced are the people who actually have something substantive to say, popular or not.
Where did KD from east Texas go? Talk about feet on the ground in east TX, that is the one.
May be out thinking about how to return to ETx incognito! They say once a Texan always a Texan. I have been here more than 25 years, but may leave to be closer to grandchildren
Dr Nancy,
Sorry, got busy over the last 36 hours.
Yes, I know East Texas….Yes, I am a Vidor graduate.
Is it better? Yes? Better than the 1970s when I graduated…..Is East Texas about to enter the 2010s? Far from it.
I am among the few to graduate from college from my school, and my senior class of about 400 kids I think 15-20 of us completed college. ( B.S./B.A./ B.B.A) our valedictorian, never received their degree.
Racism is still the norm here. This area of Texas doesn’t have the influx of a Latino immigration of say Houston or DFW does, so, the concept is totally foreign to East Texas. But black vs white is normal.
It’s a different world here. In church, in the schools, the thinking here is so different, I do not think people not from here really understand. I do not understand…..and I often ran into problems in the classroom when I discussed the Constitution. ( I taught government and economics) This is the region in which the cheerleaders put Biblical verses on their run- through signs….like God prefers their team over the team 10 miles down the highway….I wonder what the community will say when a cheerleader of another religion writes a pro- Hindu or pro- Satan verse?
Many here are afraid of their ministers, scared to death. They will starve to donate to their pastor who is driving a Lexus, and while you can find this nationwide, it seems more prevalent here…
For a period of time I co-hosted a radio show on religion and politics and when we got on crooked ministers, people came out of the woodwork…..death threats….came to the station and yelled at the station management…
Yes, it’s a different world here…
__
Rotten Bananas: “Cerah’s Proverbial-Monkey-Business?”
hmmm…
Cerah’s salvo(s) # 1 -6 : (…to date)
@ Cerah #1
@ Cerah#2
@ Cerah#3
@ Cerah#4
@ Cerah#5
@ Cerah#6
What?
Cerah proverbial Mother’s Day monkey business (to date) ‘appears’ to be :
accusatory,
maliciousness,
blatant attack,
deformation of character,
poisoning testimony,
poisoning effectiveness,
separation from support,
question of motives,
neutralization in the eyes of one’s peers,
All on Mother’s Day no less…
Nice try for proverbial religious pond scum, huh?
What? No flowers?
(grin)
hahahahahahaha
*
Skreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch!
(bump)
Crash!
“The issue is not jobs or other issues but what is right. Political collusion between BJU and North Greenville University to silence critics of sexual abuse is wrong, unless you feel that sexually abusive organizations and churches should be praised. ”
The line in the sand is drawn: either you are the right side of history, which is the biblically sanctioned right of children not to be sexually or otherwise abused, or you will fade with the infamy of your approval of such behavior.”
“I see a lot of support for such abuse in the IFB and the SBC. Support is by silence and defensiveness of sexual offenders at all cost. ”
“It takes so much evidence before a sexual offender in either camp spends a short time in incarceration. Sometimes politics gets the offender off without any jail time.”
“Of course there is the possibility that radical theologians in either camp will”
– Mark
Well spoken !
*
“Having done all. —> ‘Stand’…” – Apostle Paul, Ephesians Six.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXGUNvIFTQw
At Black Gate of University Sexual Abuse?
–> Finally, kind folk, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might!
Put on the whole armor of Your God, that you may be able to stand against the assaults of the devil,
For we certainly wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, and against the worldly governors, the prince(s) of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness, which are in the high placez,
For this cause take and put on the whole armor of Your God, that you may be able to resist when the evil day comes, and having finished all things, stand fast!
Stand therefore, and your loins girded about with Truth, and having on the breastplate of Righteousness, and your feet shod with the Preparation of the Gospel of Peace!
Above all, take the Shield of Faith, where with you may be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked,
Take the helmet of Salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God…praying always with all manner of Prayer and Supplication in the Spirit…Watch there unto with all Perseverance and Supplication for all the Saints of God!
YeeeeHaaaaaaaaa!
ATB
Cover us with your blood, Lord Jesus, & go forth with us, I pray!
Your lit’l sparrow,
Sopy
__
Inspirational relief: Jennifer Jeon – 주사랑 (God’s Love)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1YQeVaY5uQ
—
K.D. wrote:
Tell me again about this “Protestant Reformation” against that Rich Church in Rome with its Priestcraft oppressing the people?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I remember being in Church History class in seminary with my favorite prof who could barely support his family and the topic of ministerial compensation came up. I remember one student (who was middle aged and already a pastor) arguing passionately that “a workman was worthy of his hire” and that “God’s man aught to look the part” and that he was currently leasing a Mercedes S-class. I remember cutting him to ribbons, probably too harsh, but it really got my goat.
___
“Kathryn Joyce on Sex Abuse at Bob Jones University ”
Dr. Lewis (said above in the article) : “Kathryn Joyce also interviewed me a week before my gag order and published her fine analysis in the American Prospect just hours before my silence was done….”
The American Prospect Video links: Summary: “Kathryn Joyce of The American Prospect speaks about GRACE’s (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment) investigation into sex abuse at Bob Jones University” : [posted May 5th on YouTube]
(Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiLESWzok7o
(Part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXI8Z8RYBHU
(As shared above, for the related article, please visit if you haven’t already:
http://prospect.org/article/next-christian-sex-abuse-scandal )
—
Just a quick request for prayer support. Pretty much everything that can go wrong prior to the wedding is going wrong from my fiance’s teenage son all of a sudden deciding to have anger issues to a vindictive ex-wife to financial issues… I am trying my hardest to remain hopeful that we will come through the other side victorious but I am so afraid that we won’t.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Time for a new Reformation? Dr. Martin Luther posted on the Wurttenburg church 95 thesis. One of these could be rephrased:
45. Christians should be taught that he who sees a needy person, but passes him by although he gives money for indulgences, gains no benefit from the pope’s pardon, but only incurs the wrath of God.
Rephrased in post Reformation terms:
45. Christians should be taught that he sees a needy person who has suffered abuse, but passes him by although he gives his tithes to his mega church, gains no benefit by idolizing his pastor and making his ecclesiastical leader happy, but only incurs the wrath of God.
Since I believe in God, and a just God, I can’t help but fear His wrath if I see anyone abused in a church and support the pedophile or rapist. Or deny this wrong doing. Far worse to accuse those who broadcast such abuses as “evil doers.” These people do not fear God, evidently.
Hi Mandy, I will definitely pray for you, for fears to subside in all family members, and for financial issues to settle. You are loved! I so appreciate your sharing here, and I know we had what felt like insurmountable issues when my husband and I got married. Praying that this blows over soon, and it gives you and your fiance an even deeper trust in God.
I didn’t know if you all would be interested in this story or not. I saw it while browsing headlines on the news:
At Evangelical Colleges, Leadership Is Often the Family Business
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
It worked splendidly. Power was seized from one ruling priesthood by another without the plebs being any the wiser. Thanks for asking.
Muwahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa!
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I’m sure you and I are barking up the same hymn-tree here, Dr. Fundystan, but you have to wonder exactly what part in the play your middle-aged pastor colleague coveted. Probably not the part of the Galilean carpenter with nowhere to lay his head.
It is true that the worker is worthy of his wages, and it’s also true that the NT reference to this is in the context of the apostles preaching the gospel. But it’s also true that the “wages” in this case were simply food, shelter, and an honest and honourable welcome.
@ Nice Kekbulb:
Oops – sorry, I mistakenly left the auto-form-filling in the hands of my evil alter-ego for that last comment.
K.D. wrote:
My uncle is a minister in those parts. Has always been very well off. He rained down curses on my mother that God was going to punish her because she wouldn’t let him live in the house rent-free after my father died. After she got an attorney and the house was officially sold to him, a tree fell down on the house during a storm.
@ Daisy:
An interesting read. To quote from the article: “Your ministerial credentials in both evangelicalism and Pentecostalism have more to do with your biography, your personal story,” Dr. Coffman said. “Whereas in the mainline, your credentials are the framed things you hang on the wall.” So having worked alongside a famous preacher, having been raised by him, is especially valuable on an evangelical’s résumé.
I don’t know, maybe I’m just jaded, but if you’re spending all this money to get a degree, don’t you want to know that your school leaders know how to properly lead the school and their leadership is not solely based on who they know or on birth? A good friend’s spouse is doing the on-line program at Liberty. Some of the required courses are religion courses (he’s doing a of banking/finance degree). I mean no disrespect to those who attend christian colleges, but what do religion courses have to do with certain degrees? That’s fine if it’s an elective, but wouldn’t the money be better spent to make sure you really know your subject matter instead of a mix with religious education?
@ Lola:
I love it. If he is even semi-calvinist he has to say that God did it to him or allowed it to happen for a purpose.
Let me add this…a radio station owner who broadcast our program always said he ” Wanted to go to Hell” adding ” I want to see the local ministers thrown into the fiery pit.”
Sadly, he was serious.
This is rural East Texas in a nutshell…..he was so familiar with the local pastors who broadcast Sunday mornings that he had ” lost his religion.”
@ K.D.:
Is there a separatist movement in Tx? Maybe Mexico would like to have them again.
Nancy wrote:
Funny you should say that, the leader of the separatist movement lives about 15 miles from here. ( East Texas, we have our share of kooks.) He ran for the state house last term….thank you Jesus, he lost….
There are also the “dividers”, who want to make Texas into five states. There are those of us who think that Texas is already in five states: Denial, mental incompetence, insanity, etc.
@ An Attorney:
Here is additional evidence of what you just shared about denial:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/5-teachers-year-resign-texas-hs-sex-student-allegations-article-1.1783655
K.D. wrote:
Probably grew up in an over zealously religious home, or a home with mean spirited fundamentalists as described by Lola. If I ever met this person, I hope I would be kind to him and witness to him. He has to feel a great deal of hurt to be so turned off to Christianity. I will find out who this person is and put him on a prayer list. This person really needs to know that God loves him.
An Attorney wrote:
I like Texas. I lived there for many years.
Which part? Metroplex, Houston, E TX piney woods, Flatland panhandle, Austin, San Antonio, S. TX, El Paso. Those places are about as different as any two other states are different. That is the point of my earlier comment.
Regarding Dr. Lewis’s desire that BJU and, in this case, NGU be “big on transparency” – does that desire mesh with secretly recording and publishing her meeting with Dr. Parnell? Was that ethical? Professional? Does it undermine her research? For the record, I believe it was highly unethical for Mr. Page to contact NGU, and typical fundamentalist behavior for other people who called NGU to complain. She is clearly an expert in her field of study.
But the secretive recording disturbs me.
@ Cerah:
Regina wrote:
And why is that? It would seem to me that the Bible says to tell the truth in all circumstances. Recording a meeting gives an accurate account of what was said.
South Carolina is a one party consent state. SC: “One party can consent to the recording of a wire, electronic or oral communication. Consent is not required for the taping of a non-electronic communication uttered by a person who does not have a reasonable expectation of privacy in that communication.”
http://www.detectiveservices.com/2012/02/27/state-by-state-recording-laws/
When it comes to employment and/ or discipline that could lead to change in one’s employment status, all communications legally should be above board and truthful. Imagine if every company/organization could threaten the job of an employee and then deny it later?
I am a great supporter of one party recording and applaud those who are smart enough to use the law to their favor when underhanded garbage is going on at work. And what happened in this circumstance is both underhanded and not in keeping with Christian values of truth and honesty in all of our dealings.
My remark is that the conversation was abusive and she was protecting herself from that abuse. Employers seeking to constrain speech that does not even mention the employer, and explicitly seeks to avoid mention of the employer, are abusing the rights of their employees. And beyond that, it does not display the love that an allegedly Christian institution should show to their employees. Of the parties involved, BJU, NGU, and those phoning in to NGU, none displayed the love that Christians are commanded to show, and acted in overtly worldly ways. Only Dr. Lewis behaved appropriately!!!!
@ Regina:
What is ethical and or what is professional is specifically defined by the particular profession that one is talking about. For example: lawyer ethics / professional requirements on the one hand and doctor ethics / professional requirements differ somewhat. I have no idea what academic ethics or professional requirement are, but it is a good bet that their ethical code is specific to their profession. I am thinking that Dr. Lewis is acutely aware of this and is careful to stay within the boundaries. Why would she not?
Camille,
It tickles me that you find the South so baffling and its honor culture so foreign.
I count myself an enemy of the Bob and I support your work overall. But stop it please with the NYT-style dissection of the South as though we were animals in the Yankee Zoo. It’s demeaning, and you embarrass yourself when you imitate our speech.
Best regards and I look forward to reading more of your work.
Jocassee wrote:
That’s what we call in the business a hug-slug.
But more pointedly, I am studying the intersection of revivalism, conservative politics, and white supremacy in the Deep South in the twentieth-century. It’s an academic pursuit within Southern studies. I neither need your approval nor do I seek it.
http://www.bridgesburning.net/2014/05/26/things-i-know-5/
Regarding the so-called “excellent article” referred to at the beginning of this piece, I am really a bit surprised that you guys would not address the problem with Camille’s “research.”
I was the sole source for one of her stories. The sole source. She didn’t vet the story. She took an internet rumor and published it like it was holy writ. I’m not just blowing off steam. I WAS THE SOLE SOURCE.
How much of the rest of the stuff she writes hasn’t been vetted? You call this “scholarship” and publish it?
Shame on you.
Sally
Since you are the sole sourse, could you please give us any information that you shared with Dr Lewis that is not the truth? We would be happy to provide an update if you do so. This blog is not a history journal wih professors who debate the fine points of history. If you made an error when you discussed this with her, please let us know.
However, the point of this post and the other has very little to do with the finer points of history. Instead, it focuses on some serious issues with BJU and BJU’s relationship with a SBC university.
@ Sally Davis:
I’m not sure what I’m to take away from that. Okay, you were only one source. Are you saying she misrepresented your comments to her? Were you untruthful in what you told her? Why is it wrong for a reporter or author to use only one source?
@ Daisy:
Daisy, Dan Rather was fired from CBS for using only one unvetted source. After the fact, it was shown that in all likelihood his story was actually true, but his source was unvetted.
I asked a US Army journalist about this, and she said, “Minimum two valid sources and preferably 3 or more–never hearsay. The only way she could’ve written that particular story with any credibility is by saying “I heard this from one person, and can’t confirm its accuracy.” She obviously lacks integrity.”
It’s not about my truthfulness. The story was my memory from FIFTY years ago when I was 14 or so. What if, even though I was being totally honest, my memory was faulty? What if the son who told me the story was wrong, or lying? What if the mother moved out of staff housing because she couldn’t bear to remain in the house — and the University didn’t force her to leave at all?
Please go read what I wrote on my blog.
@ dee:
“We would be happy to provide an update if you do so.”
If you had even the slightest bit of journalistic integrity, you would have trotted over to the link I provided and read the blog article I wrote about this and you wouldn’t have to ask any questions.
This is not about my honesty. It’s about Camille’s. She didn’t vet the story.
@ Sally Davis:
How do you know that she did not vet the story? Have you exhaustively checked those who may have known at the time? I think not. So you are the only source for an undocumented accusation that there was no vetting! My point — you are doing what you accuse Camille of doing.
@ An Attorney:
Sigh… Look, folks. I have written about this in detail.
http://www.bridgesburning.net/2014/05/26/things-i-know-5/
I address all that, “Attorney.”
She TOLD ME I WAS HER ONLY SOURCE. I have screen shots of the messages to prove it.
@ An Attorney:
Oh, and since you’re a scary “attorney,” the messages remain intact in my computer. They are not doctored JPGs. They’re actual messages.
Camille knows all this. That is why she remains silent and refuses to address it. I tried to contact her privately to address the issue, but she refuses to discuss it.
Please just read the blog before commenting, how about it?
I don’t have a dog in this fight…but Sally is correct that it is the journalistic norm to vet a source or claim, if possible….or to clearly note that a claim has not been able to be verified and explain why you include it anyway.
Many books/articles will discuss sole sources in an appendix with an explanation of why they are including it away from the main body of journalism.
She is also correct about Dan Rather, his story about then President Bush not completing his military training is most likely correct. But he ran with the story from an unreliable source who had doctored some of the info he gave Rather and it got him fired…too bad they don’t hold those same standards to Fox news commentators, but I digress.
Seconding doubtful here – no dog in this fight and haven’t followed anything to do with BJU or Camille Lewis, but I saw that there was activity in this thread after weeks and weeks so I wondered what was going on. Just finished Sally’s post, and yeah, that’s not good to publish something like that without confirming it. The fact that Lewis didn’t even ask permission to publish the story is bad too. BJU is a legalistic hellhole, but this is the kind of thing its supporters will dredge up and then use to claim that all the bad press is just secondhand hearsay from “bitter” people.
Sally Davis wrote:
Good night! Calm down. I did not know there was a link involved in your first comment.
Hester wrote:
And I totally agree. There is a tendency to circle the wagons around the “cause” and defend it at all costs. When the cause becomes more important than doing the right thing, when it becomes so important to trash your supposed enemy that you take short cuts, the cause becomes the casualty.
I am no defender of BJU. I cannot wish them well.
But I have learned to value truth first and foremost. And Murry Havens’ son was my friend when I really needed one. I have no idea what he would think about this. Nobody ever asked him.
Is this thread still active?
All of our threads stay open for 6 months.