“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
Thumb Up SilhouetteSome have been 'observing' the promotion of Sovereign Grace Ministries in recent weeks, and we are left wondering whether there has been a concerted effort to prop up this church planting network. You be the judge…
CCEF
The first piece of evidence we would like to bring to your attention is an article that recently appeared in the 2014 edition of CCEFNow.
You may recall that CCEF has had a cozy relationship with SGM over the years, as demonstrated by numerous links on SGM's website. Dave Harvey, who headed up SGM after Mahaney's temporary resignation, served on the CCEF Board of Trustees and spoke at their conferences. Not only that, C.J. Mahaney had this to say about his dear friend David Powlison (CCEF's Executive Director) in August 2009: (link)
No one has taught me more about applying the gospel to my heart in the midst of daily life than my friend David Powlison. I have benefited from dozens of outstanding journal articles he has written, from the books he has authored, and from the courses he has taught.
The current CCEFNow publication features an article entitled Establishing a Counseling Ministry (page 7), which was written by a pastor in Sovereign Grace Ministries named Lou Gallo who is on staff at SGM Fairfax. If that name sounds familiar, perhaps it is because he was named in a lawsuit filed last year against certain entities and individuals affiliated with Sovereign Grace Ministries. The lawsuit is pending. For those not familiar with what happened, here is the most recent development as reported by the news media last May.
Getting back to Lou Gallo, here is excerpt from his recently published article:
CCEF has been instrumental in the way we think about counseling at Sovereign Grace Church in Fairfax, Virginia. We became familiar with CCEF materials many years ago and have greatly benefitted from their wisdom, utilizing many resources in our small groups and in pastoral counseling. We attended many CCEF conferences and had faculty speak at our church. Though we are an established church, over time we recognized a void in the way we were handling the personal care of our members. We had a strong desire to engage our people in biblical counseling relationships, but our pastoral staff lacked the time to counsel all those seeking help. We also wanted to equip ourselves with additional training to grow in wisdom and expertise in order to counsel more effectively.
So the pastors asked me to establish a counseling ministry in our church…
We find it unconscionable that CCEF would feature anything written by someone named in a lawsuit that involves some extremely serious charges. For those of you who are not familiar with some of the problems inherent in Sovereign Grace Ministries, we highly recommend that you read the testimony of Wallace and Happymom, which we posted here at TWW almost three years ago.
In our estimation, Lou Gallo is not qualified to write about how to set up a counseling ministry because of the pending charges against him. Why did CCEF publish Gallo's article? Could there be some financial ties between churches affiliated with SGM and CCEF? You betcha!
Here is a lists of churches that give to CCEF. Notice that the church where Lou Gallo serves – Sovereign Grace Church of Fairfax – gives at the highest level. It's interesting to note that Capitol Hill Baptist Church and Covenant Life Church also give at the highest level. Could this be the bottom line for why Gallo's article was published in CCEFNow?
World Magazine
Perhaps not coincidentally, there was an article in World Magazine last month about a Sovereign Grace church that is helping a family cope with a serious problem. Saving Seth describes how a teenager diagnosed with bi-polar disorder is being ministered to by his pastors and cared for by fellow congregants. After describing how Seth was diagnosed and treated, the article states:
In Deborah’s Sovereign Grace Church, her pastor Trey Richardson and his wife lead a small group for caregivers once a month. About four families meet at a local Applebee’s to share Scriptures and struggles, check up on each other’s progress, and pray for one another. “It’s very encouraging,” Deborah said. “We’re very open with each other, and we laugh about things we probably wouldn’t on a regular day.”
It took some time and guidance, but Deborah said members of her church have learned more about her son Seth’s illness. They seek ways to interact with him and take him out regularly. She said that members are learning that her son and others are “not unreachable—but they’ve been neglected for so long.” A doctor often only treats the brain as an organ with symptoms. The church, however, can treat the whole person by lifting the hopelessness, unhappiness, and self-worthlessness that obstruct a person’s ability to worship and glorify God.
Once a week, Seth meets with his pastor, Trey Richardson, for biblical counseling. Seth’s love for his church hasn’t wavered, and even if sometimes he walks out in the middle of a sermon, Richardson uses that incident to teach him about the fruit of the Spirit. Recently he asked Seth, “What was your happiest moment this week?” Seth replied: “When I’m in church.”
How ironic that a family of churches (SGM) that spent several decades labeling mental illness as 'sin' and condemning psychiatry and prescription drugs is now being hailed as a public example of how to assist church members with serious mental health issues. What is wrong with this picture? After decades of sin sniffing, legalism, and condemnation of the professional treatment of mental illness (i.e. psychiatry and meds), Sovereign Grace Ministries is suddenly doing it right? Yeah, right!
9Marks
On February 19, 2014, the 9Marks blog featured a post by Bob Kauflin entitled Should Your Second Hire Be a Music Pastor?
For those who may not be familiar with Bob Kauflin, he is the director of Sovereign Grace Music and one of the pastors of Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville, where C.J. Mahaney pastors. Kauflin is indebted to his buddy C.J., as evidenced by this excerpt from his post:
It’s no small irony that C.J., the pastor who has taught me the most about leading congregational song, is not a musician. Some of the values I’ve learned from him are the importance of esteeming God’s Word, understanding lyrics, emotional engagement, expression, spontaneity, pastoring through song, and more.
Kauflin will serve as the worship leader at the upcoming Together for the Gospel conference, as he has done since its inception. And, of course, he will probably be lauding C.J. from the platform since Mahaney has taken a leave of absence from this year's event.
Is this sudden recognition of SGM mere coincidence or pure orchestration?
We believe it's an attempt to cast SGM in a positive light because of the upcoming T4G conference. After all, 'gospel' friends have to stick together. In the Foreward for Dever's book The Gospel and Personal Evangelism (published in 2007), Mahaney wrote:
It was over ten years ago that I drove from my home church in the suburbs of Washington DC to meet Mark at Capitol Hill Baptist Church where he serves as Senior Pastor.
These long time "Together for the Gospel" pals really do have each others' backs, as demonstrated by Mark Dever when he spoke at the Sovereign Grace Church in Louisville.
Has there been a concerted effort to spin SGM in the most favorable way possible? We may never know, but Almighty God does…
Lydia's Corner: Jeremiah 26:1-27:22 2 Thessalonians 3:1-18 Psalm 85:1-13 Proverbs 25:16
Or maybe some pastors at churches affiliated with it actually do have a heart for pastoral ministry.
@ srs:
Only time will tell… I am concerned that 'biblical counseling' will only perpetuate SGM's penchant for keeping problems in-house and away from the proper authorities.
I hope and pray that SGMers have learned that silence is NOT golden.
Everything has been sufficiently swept under the rug.
Let’s move on, shall we?
Hmmm…sounds like spin mit “strange fire.”
That article on Seth seemed like an ad for SGM. It made me sick thinking of how many sex abuse survivors have been denied mental health care and were given “Biblical counseling” to forgive their sexual perpetrators. I wonder if Seth gave permission for his full name to be used for the article? Something about that strikes me as off — a person with a combination of schizophrenia and bi-polar has the right mind to determine whether it’s appropriate or not to disclose their mental health issues publicly? That doesn’t sound like they are protecting his privacy whatsoever.
I don’t think I ever posted here before, but have been reading for a while. Thanks Dee & Deb for your even hand while maintaining this site. Blessings to you.
I will be satisfied when:
…SGM advises that prayer on the way to the ER is great, but pastoral **counseling only comes in SECOND, after medical/psychiatric needs and meds are attended to.
…Getting medical/psychiatric needs and meds attended to takes legitimate time, even if a psych admit isn’t the way someone begins to get help.
…SGM acknowledges the real world need for these medical/psychiatric professionals.
…SGM recommends yielding to the medical/psychiatric professionals as often as necessary.
…SGM advises that pastoral interference in helping a person get healthier just muddies the waters for later, good and supportive counsel.
As we all can acknowledge, this is just a START of what we really want.
I want it in writing/speech via articles, books, sermons, and podcasts. From podiums, loud and clear and in that order. If done, this could, in some small measure, lessen the damage of the years that CJ audibly laughed at, verbally belittled/preached and wrote against the same.
It will never lessen the blow from the loss of life that has occurred, in part, as a result of CJ’s erroneous teaching.
Is this really so hard for any pastor/reasonable person to understand? This is the way Jesus ministered to those around him. Hunger, sickness, and disease…He addressed all in a variety of ways, and He usually did it first. Our humanity and need is no secret to Jesus.
I would hope that more SGM pastors would take straightforward chaplain training, for service at their local hospitals, in order to clear any unprofessional attitudes or lack of general knowledge from their individual playbooks. For even the most well-intentioned pastor, this more readily equips them for serving those who suffer in the area of mental health.
I hope my words are not too harsh to be considered, or too redundant. There is just so much sadness, so much avoidable and prolonged suffering from SGM in this, that my heart breaks.
Yay – sixth post!
Why wasn’t Seth interviewed for this article? Since he is seemingly able to go to church, (meeting with the pastor for counseling once a week), one would think he might have an opinion or two, on his own treatment. After all, the story line is : ‘ Saving Seth ‘ yet Seth isn’t interviewed. Seems as though Seth is being used as a prop.
@ Lin:
I agree.
In some jurisdictions, it would take a court order for a minor with serious psychological issues to be named by an organization providing counseling in promotional material, and it likely would not be granted.
I am also very concerned about the young man’s privacy – even if he gave permission.
He’s baaack! So it appears that the spin machine is is in full swing now to bring CJ back to prominence. No change in his abusive behavior, no acknowledgement, much less repentance, for the toleration and cover-up of sexual abuse in his churches, no changes whatsoever.
All of these so-called ‘Christian’ preachers, churches and organizations are nothing more than a brood of vipers that exist more to help each other achieve fame and glory than living and spreading the Gospel that Jesus teaches. Nevermind the trail of broken victims left in their wake who betrayed in their search for direction in living a Christian life.
They talk about that young man like a puppy, the way too many people talk about the intellectually disabled. As if he is just a prop with which to showcase their love and righteousness. And the way they frame the issue, as though the real problem with the symptoms of mental illness is that it interferes with a person's ability to worship and serve God in the SGM approved way, chills me. It is beyond appalling that these jokers presume to counsel people with serious mental illness for the symptoms of serious mental illness when they have so little respect for and understanding of their "patients", psychiatry, psychology, or medicine.
Lin wrote:
Didn't see this, but apparently we think alike.
@ JeffT:
BTW – I wonder if these guys all get a tattoo when they join this ‘club’ of a snake with the words “YRR Brood of Vipers”
More spin…
Just now saw the latest over on the Sovereign Grace Ministries website (published yesterday).
Saved from Hopelessness Human Help Couldn't Reach
The post begins as follows:
and concludes with this:
@ burntnorton:
…………
YES.
“No one has taught me more about applying the gospel to my heart in the midst of daily life than my friend David Powlison.” CJ Mahaney
I believe CJ continuously works to create the outward impression of an inward reality that is non-existent. You don’t apply the gospel to your heart, it lives within you continuously transforming you from within.
Mahaney knows enough, and is clever enough, to adopt language that sounds good and makes him appear authentic. He’s good at repeating certain expressions that give the impression he actually realizes the truth.
Mahaney is a fake. He’s a con-man and a mountebank. The forces that drive him have been made evident, and they don’t testify to the presence of God. He’s selfish, proud, manipulative and a liar. The only “truth” he has is the one he’s carefully crafted for you to believe.
He’s constantly claiming how grateful he is to certain individuals for their spiritual contributions into his life, humble man that he is. It’s all lies. He’s grateful for the way they have taught him how to mimic the presence of God, which is what he must continually do in order to fool everyone into believing he’s authentic; a true believer. It’s a facade. It’s something he must “apply” everyday. But there’s no getting around “you shall know them by their fruits.”
@ Paula:
For some reason your comment brought Mahaney's words at the beginning of this clip to mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZgrI2qPifk
I think it is important to separate the issues. If people like Seth and Shirley are getting genuine support and care from their church ALONGSIDE professional help, that is a good thing. It sounds like it’s been a long and grueling road for Seth and his family and they have my prayers. BUT, this concerted effort to promote a ministry that for years railed against any professional intervention and told countless sufferrers it was their sin, it’s unfathomable that they would now be hailed as leaders in counseling and ministry,especially in light of the fact that this has never been acknowledged by leadership who shoveled that oppressive burden onto the hurting, depressed, and abused.
@ An Attorney:
Except that this is a church, not a health care provider. Unless one of the people providing counseling is a licensed therapist or health care professional, confidentiality laws likely don’t apply. Nor can they be sued for malpractice if it all goes sideways.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Er… seventh (somebody above be must’ve been in mod…).
🙁
I don’t know how old Seth is, but if he’s under 18, his parents can legally consent for his story to be told. So he may not have consented.
And then there’s the cynical part of me that wonders how true the story is to start out with.
@ Paula:
More seriously, you make a vital point, Paula. Wherever “the gospel” is only an ideology (as in “gospel repentance”), then it’s reduced to whatever a given cabal of motivational speakers can easily live up to. All that remains is for the various cabals to fight it out among themselves for the right to own and define the ideology.
For a bit of diversion, see the following clip from “The Life of Brian” as an example (with apologies for some of the language!).
TedS wrote:
Right, guess that’s the plan. Has it been long enough? You know how people are, especially Christians. Give it time. Their hearts will soften. The offense will die down. And people will be ripe for the picking again.
People, perhaps.
But not God.
And God’s people have His Spirit, and they’re not letting this go. Funny, that. Those pesky believers. Why can’t they be threatened and coerced into believing in CJ Mahaney? Hmm, maybe because God has worked through His people and blown Mahaney’s cover. I figure his plan has been to lay low, stay quiet, and wait. No doubt the pressure inside the man continues to build as he looks and looks for an outlet to release all his pent-up falsehood, which he had grown used to broadcasting to thousands. His little audience at SGCL can hardly be enough to satisfy his insatiable ego. No, he must constantly seek a larger audience, and so must his wife. But writing books is too impersonal. They like to feel the eyes of hundreds of people upon them, and the feeling of power that comes when others believe in what you’re saying.
Mahaney is cornered. He can’t leave SGM altogether, that would be too obvious. And Mahaney has prided himself on hiding his radical drive to control people on par with any cult leader by playing it safe, making everything appear normative. If he broke off from SGM in an attempt to start his own thing under a new name, that would make his rebellion and independence clear. Yet, that is what he must do somehow if he’s unable to make a comeback by using the character he created within SGM. He must seek to form a new character, on a new stage, with a different cast, in a new location. He tried doing that by going to Louisville with his family and the other dupes. But that’s not really working. And the dang Internet! Those people know too much and keep exposing the truth more and more – they’re relentless! Saying they’re all gossips hasn’t worked on anyone except my brainwashed followers. What’s a cult leader to do? Guyana maybe? No dang it, that’s too obvious as well….
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x7wc55oXWf8
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Yes, and here is an example of how some people go about “applying” the gospel, in hopes that their outward words or actions will produce an inward reality 😉
__
“Ministers Of Religious Putridification?” (MORP)
…where the proverbial vultures gather, there will the religious body be.
hmmm…
Anther ploy to yet another religious morphing, perhaps?
huh?
TAG/GOB/CLC/POD/PDI/SGM…(name goes here)
What?
What will this proverbially dark religious chrysalis bring forth from the cheap seats, this time?
hmmm…
SOS, SOS, SOS…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ux5dbWT34c
(Lord, has da ‘gatesO’hell’ prevail’d?)
hum, hum, hum…♪ ♫ ♩
♬ five years has passed since I wrote my first blog note,
But I should have known this right from the start,
Only God’s love can keep us together,
Jesus can mend your life but SGM can break your heart… (1)
Sending out an S.O.S. ,
Sending out an S.O.S. ,
Sending out an S.O.S. ,
echo, echo, echo…
(sadface)
Sopy
___
(1) **”Message in a Bottle”
by The Police; Lyrics © EMI Music Publishing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e2CuyIG7x8
All rights reserved, adapted material reflects parody use, U.S. Title Code 17 § 107 copyright infringement unintended.
;~)
—
@ Paula:
I couldn’t agree more. I’ve listened to CJ preach since 1977 (not anymore) and he was manipulating from then. And making up his own religion. I couldn’t read all of this post because it was causing me panic. I hope something can be done, but I’m afraid nothing will be.
@ Deb:
Wow Deb. I was waiting for Beelzebub to make an appearance at the end of that creepy clip or something!
There is no “we” in what Mahaney was saying at the beginning. That’s a big “I”. He’s speaking for himself. Christians do not hate God! He has poured his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit. We love, because he first loved us. And then we demonstrate that love through our love for one another. His message, “we hate God” is false.
But I feel sure that if someone were to have confronted him backstage afterward he gave that message, and told him he’s got it wrong – I’m sure the look in his eye would reveal the presence of hatred alright.
@ Paula:
I couldn’t listen to that clip, but I’ve heard CJ preach about us being God haters. It’s heartbreaking to know that this man is being held up as any kind of example. And it seems that CJ is being cradled in the loving arms of some of the biggest denominations around.
Watching wrote:
………
Bingo.
Convallaria Majalis wrote:
Awesome post, CM.
Reading the “World” article and perusing the CCEF website made me ill and took me straight back to a very bad and very recent place when I wrestled with the entirely FALSE choice of going on medication or being a “good Christian” (again, this was an utterly false choice – but I simply couldn’t see that at the time out of abject fear).
The CCEF website lists one its most popular articles of 2013 as “When You Are Planning To Sin Again.”
As if one wasn’t already able to infer from the homepage just what the CCEF folks think is “sin.”
Where’s the eye rolling emoticon when I need it?
Anyhoo – I wholeheartedly will be satisfied when each item on CM’s list above is met, too.
Because, IMHO, no amount of sin-sniffing prayer group meetings can assist when one is in full-blown hyper-alertness/flashback/I’m-guilty-because-I-lived-mode.
Meds + therapy on the other hand help a lot.
@ Sopwith:
Ahhhh, Sopy, the Police. Good good stuff (and an excellent parody as well). 🙂
@ Joy Huff:
Hey Joy 🙂
Let’s not forget, with Mahaney there’s always something going on behind closed doors, and I think from what we’ve been seeing, there’s nothing that’s amounting to any good. How can it? And that’s a good thing!
@ Joy Huff:
Yup, because for him it's a matter of 'Godly by Association.' It's all about maintaining an image!
Joy Huff wrote:
I am really sorry about that Joy. Really, truly, sorry. I felt my stomach clench going through the CCEF website. 🙁 Incredibly different contexts of course but I’m guessing a similar ill, hopeless, negative feeling.
Paula wrote:
Oh good heavens, while I have not ever set foot in an SGM church I’ve sat through my share of “We hate God” sermons. Uggggghhhhhhhhh.
Am picturing myself getting up on a Sunday, getting psyched to worship God corporately, being deeply content out of an outpouring of gratitude and love for the Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son, having that indescribable deep peace and then …
WHAM!
Sitting in a pew and being pounded during the sermon as a “God-hating” worm.
Cognitive, meet dissonance!
Is there anyone out there that witnessed CJ Mahaney’s baptism?
Rafiki wrote:
@ Paula:
Let me take that a step further…
Or heard him refer to his baptism?
Deliver a full-fledged message on baptism?
Does anyone recall Mahaney talking at all about baptism?
I’m not saying he wasn’t baptized, has never mentioned it, or preached on the subject. I just never once recall him ever saying anything about either his own baptism, or giving a message on it. Maybe someone else does.
Strange, imo, for a guy so closely associating himself with BAPTISTS
@ Lin:
Yep, Lin – you nailed it. “Sheep beaters” indeed.
Convallaria Majalis wrote:
I really agree with what you said, but I want to add a word of caution about what you sound like you might have been saying in the part I have quoted here. In my comment I am thinking primarily about abuse situations, not about psychotic disorders. Everybody please understand that.
Some of us have a little different idea of psychiatry and its limitations. I had an eye-opening experience with psychiatry, not as a patient , when I thought that I wanted to be a psychiatrist and started a psych residence at a name university. A year later I dropped out of psych, went into a radiology residency and spent the subsequent decades as a radiologist. That does not make me an authority on psychiatry, but it did give me more of a behind the scenes view of the specialty than I would have had otherwise.
Don’t expect too much from an MD psychiatrist. It is a mixed bag. During my short stay in that residency program I did not find any other resident or staff who was openly a believer. That does not mean that they may not have been informed and conscientious and concerned. It does mean, however, that the believer who will almost certainly have spiritual issues as a result of abuse will not find all they need just from the MD psychiatrist, in most instances. Inpatient time if they need it? Sure. Meds if they need it? Sure. Absolutely essential sometimes. But a lot of the time that is all you can really count on from that source.
And surely most of us who have spent much time in hospitals recognize that hospital chaplains may be pitiful at best. Nurses tend to be far better at dealing with patients than hospital chaplains.
And the local pastor can range anywhere from really awful to really good.
I am just saying, do not trust anybody solely due to their credentials, or their professional position or the length of their white coat. We need abuse teams, similar to tumor boards in functioning, with the variety of skills needed to deal with complex situations. (Maybe they are out there–I don’t know.) But the average MD psychiatrist plus the average hospital chaplain is not it.
And let me add, regarding church based counseling, that a local church in my town started and maintained a super good on-site counseling program and we still hear success stories from that work. The program has now changed and they refer mostly to a mixed professional group here in town-everything from PsyD folks to biblical counseling folks. I have no information about how well that works. The guy who ran the program at the church that was so good you may have heard of–Gary Chapman. He, by the way is also a really good preacher. Sometimes somebody like that comes along, but not always. Well, mostly not I would guess.
“personal care of our members”……”pastoral counseling”
makes my skin prickle like the crackling moment of freeze in a forest.
(“here, let me destroy you out of a motivation to care for you”)
@ Nancy:
Nancy, this is about BALANCE. CM can respond on his/her own, but this caught my eye:
SGM recommends yielding to the medical/psychiatric professionals as often as necessary.
The predominant American evangelical culture completely dismisses the role of meds + psych, PERIOD. Not only is it dismissed, but it is demonized. I feel this is an outrage.
There is no “magic bullet” in mental health i.e. only meds, only MDs, only licensed therapists, only “Biblical counseling” and your proposal of “abuse teams” underscores this.
But from a communications standpoint, from a faith standpoint, and from a love-thy-neighbors standpoint, sending the message loud and clear that taking Citalopram to stop crippling anxiety due to trauma doesn’t equal unbelief or sin or turning away from the Lord. Period.
And maybe just maybe such a loud, clear, simple message, with all due disclaimers about a proper holistic approach to mental health issues, doesn’t need to be “muddied” considering how far the pendulum has swung against meds + psych in evangelical circles.
And, particular to SGM, CM’s phrase should be restated to: “yield to the medical/psychiatric/LAW ENFORCEMENT AUTHORITIES.” FWIW.
@ Rafiki:
Yes. It's important to remember that the target audience was the Resolved crowd – Neo-Cal groupies who hang onto every word that Mahaney, MacArthur, Piper, et al utter.
“Biblical Counseling” frightens me.
I often hear pastors say that “all truth is God’s truth”. They also talk about how Christians should not compartmentalize their lives, and instead realize that everything is to be done “missionally”. There is no distinction between “secular” and “church” vocation, I’ve often heard recently among my circles. As a Science teacher, who studies the natural world, I agree with this line of reasoning.
So, why then, do men like CJ Mahaney and David Powlison insist that counseling be done within “the local church”? In my opinion, it is about control.
I’ve heard pastors tell me “we want what is best for you”, and then proceed to teach ways people can generously support their pastor’s goals. The “biblical counsel” that is given seems always to connect back to a pastor or organization’s “vision”.
If indeed “all truth is God’s truth”, why wouldn’t Christian leaders encourage people to seek out as many resources and supports available to them, even if those resources do not in any way benefit the church institution? Why do these leaders “compartmentalize” counseling to be something only done within a “church” environment?
“First, a wise pastor (or friend, elder, small group leader, mentor, etc.) has many advantages over the secular paradigm of the office-bound counselor”-David Powlison (from CCEF.org)
In my opinion, it is about control. It is about money. It is about maintaining this machine created by men, and protected by men.
That’s what I think. And, I most humbly write this for the sole glory and fame of Jesus.
@ Deb:
More uggggghhhh Deb! 🙂 I am now also thinking about a Bible study I attended for a long time where the leader was beyond obsessed with the good ol’ “Golden Chain” and expounding to the nth degree (zzzzzzz … ) on the point in the chain where we were no-good God haters.
Come to think about it, Mr. Chain never showed much enthusiasm for moving beyond that point to other “links in the chain” preferring to alternately bore and terrify the stuffing out of people. All for our own good.
Oh, and of course HE wasn’t a God hater. 🙂
Gives me a headache thinking about how I used to think!
@ Erik:
I believe Biblical Counseling(™) is the way the Neo-Cals are controlling the flock.
Gotta keep everything in-house. 😉
burntnorton wrote:
South Park episode “Conjoined Fetus Lady”…
Erik wrote:
So anything negative can be hushed up, of course. And only Godly Edifying Biblical Spin Spin Spin exists.
Deb wrote:
i.e. Cult Members.
“WHITE NIGHT! DRINK THE POTION!”
The term “Biblical Counseling” is a fraud. I don’t know why these folks don’t take the same standard into medicine. So you have allergies, asthma, sickle cell, cancer, pancreatitis, etc… why not just pray for a resolution? Is the fact that I take allergy medicine show that I lack faith in God? Is the fact that one seeks medical treatment show that one doesn’t believe in God’s sovereignty?
Actually how is this…the fact that Matt Chandler had surgery for a brain tumor…doesn’t that show that he doesn’t believe in God’s sovereignty? In the fact that he didn’t submit to the tumor and let it run its course reveal that Chandler doesn’t believe the Lord is sovereign?
Just asking…
Paula wrote:
“Once did a Pastor who outshone the Son
Look out on His kingdom and sigh:
‘Surely in the world there can be no pastor
As HUMBLE and Godly and HUMBLE as I!’
So great was His reign, so HUMBLE His glory
That long was the shadow He cast —
A shadow that fell on the sheep of His flock
And grew ever darker as days and nights passed;
For such is the lure of the limelight, how sweetly
Takes over the mind of its host;
And that HUMBLE pastor did nothing to stop
The destruction of those who had needed Him most…”
(chuckle chuckle)
— Filk to the tune of Ponyphonic’s “Lullaby for a Princess”
Paula wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnQYtbbsJzM
Joy Huff…CJ Mahaney is a fraud. I cringe when I think what you and so many other people had to endure.
You know I was driving into work and I was thinking of his teaching and how little he believes it. Here’s this clown he talked about how he was in the happiest place on earth (step aside Micky Mouse). He taught so much about the local church, care groups, submission to discipline…and what does he do? He runs! First to CHBC and then to Louisville. He left the happiest place on earth and all that he taught.
He’s basiscally a coward and fraud. I can think of woman I know that have bigger balls than he does.
Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
As in “Comrade Ogilvy”?
😛
Can’t think of a sociopath eh?
http://www.ccef.org/resources/blog/psychopath-test
I can think of multiple!! 😛 CJ Mahaney, Mark Driscoll, etc…
We can learn a lot from history, and David Powlison / CCEF figures prominently into what has happened to Mahaney/SGM in recent years.
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2011/07/07/c-j-mahaney-why-im-taking-a-leave-of-absence/
Thanks to Justin Taylor, Mahaney's explanation for why he took a leave of absence has been preserved. However, it has gone missing from Mahaney's own blog – A View from the Cheap Seats.
It's interesting to watch all of this play out.
@ Rafiki:
I wholeheartedly agree with you. But I have noticed this, that when one person talks about evangelical circles and another person talks about evangelical circles they seem to be talking about two entirely different things. I have not seen or heard, around here, anybody who opposed psych meds. Well, there is the periodic newspaper article about the abuse of mood altering meds, but nothing from any of the churches. I wonder if this difference is a regional thing?
That clip of Mahaney saying ‘We hate God’ is hilarious. In a sad kind of way. He’s acting. What a great actor. The dramatic pause between each word, the facial expressions, the gestures. All one big act. John Piper is shown next and he’s not far off it either.
I agree that Carolyn is part of the spin machine. CJ has not been mentioned in months on Girltalk. Suddenly this week Carolyn writes a post about how great her husband is. The same old tosh, about him ‘studying her’ to see what she likes. Apparently only two weeks ago he bought her afternoon tea, even though he never drinks tea. I can imagine he told her to write about it on the blog, too. Ugh.
I am SO glad that, when I was in CLC, I knew enough to take myself to a Christian counselor when I needed it. CLC totally failed me in that, by preaching against counseling very strongly at the time (C.J.’s doing). I am SOOOO glad that I’m very far removed from hearing C.J. He struck me as troubled when I was at CLC, and more so the older he gets.
@ Nancy:
Perhaps a bit of time reading about nouthetic counseling, the CCEF links above, discussions on TWW and years of denunciations of “secular psychiatry” by SGM and other national evangelical and politically conservative figures might assist your understanding that it’s not just a “regional thing.”
But then again, I guess it’s so much easier to dismiss legitimate concerns over “Biblical counseling” as being merely “regional.”
Count yourself very very lucky to have never, ever seen or heard a single individual dismiss the use of medication on the grounds that “Biblical counseling” is wholly sufficient. How nice that must be!
Seminary president Al Mohler 'selling it' in his infomercial.
@ Erik:
Yeah, a lot of it is bound to be money and control. Also, there are a lot of people who…let me put it this way: the bell curve slopes in both directions. I have seen some lower level ministerial staff who were obviously questionable in that area.
@ Nancy:
Isn’t there evidence linking some psyche meds to teenage suicide and other forms of self-harm and/or violence?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I read your poem that you posted before and wanted to comment and tell you how good I thought it was, and how intriging that you wrote in with “Cee Jay” in mind. “For such is the lure of the limelight, how sweetly…Takes over the mind of its host;” Yup. You nailed it.
@ May:
lol @ your expression “the same old tosh”
Yup. The Girltalk blog has always been an arm of SGM, and a place for the Mahaney woman to boast and show off in an effort to convince readers and observers that their complementarian lifestyles produce God’s order and bliss which they are the models of. I think Carolyn Mahaney must still see herself as being a leader of women and the Girltalk blog her ongoing ministry. Except…the only reason she had a ministry, remember, is because her husband provided her with one. Now that he’s not the President of SGM anymore, what does that make Carolyn Mahaney?
Next up on Girltalk: RECIPES
Recipe #1: HUMBLE PIE
There is “some evidence” that some psych meds may be associated with an increased risk of suicidal ideation in teenagers and early 20s. One of the issues is that some are prescribed for depression or bipolar disorder, both of which are indicators of increased risk for suicidal ideation unless treated. It is very hard to sort out whether the meds are responsible or the underlying emotional problems. It is a fact that many teenagers and young adults who are not being treated with psychiatric medications do attempt or commit suicide.
BTW, there is a difference between “Christian counseling” and seeing a counselor who is also a Christian. My family has experience with the latter and the results were very good.
With a young man we adopted we have gained a great deal of experience in dealing with mental health issues. Just some thoughts:
Those who, in the name of Christ, would deny psych meds when they are needed might try avoiding crutches if they have a broken leg. Makes about as much sense.
Those who counsel in the areas of psychiatry and psychology can only get you so far but may be needed. I say MAY because sometimes brain based issues respond extremely well to meds alone, and sometimes experience based issues do not need meds but do well with talk therapy.
There is a place for Biblical counseling that is definitely not psychology oriented. Once you have your right brain state back physically, and have dealt with your psychological issues it may have caused, you may have spiritual issues that need to be dealt with.
Just to show a chain that I speak of: if, in a deep brain based depression you harmed another person emotionally, you first need the depression broken up. Probably meds will work best if the depression was brain based. Then a good psych can help you learn to recognize signs of needing help or meds changed, can help you learn good coping mechanisms, and can help you get your thinking and feeling on a healthier keel.
And then, once you are physically and mentally back to better health, you probably could use good spiritual counsel to help you come to that place where you accept God’s forgiveness and can forgive yourself. You may learn (our son did) that despite the disease being brain based, walking in the power of the Holy Spirit may give more self control, self awareness, compassion for others, etc.
So it never is does the person need meds, a shrink, or Jesus.
It is always yes, yes or probably, and yes.
@ Deb:
I counted eight instances of use of the word “threats” in Al Mohler’s infomercial you posted in your comment.
Sounds pretty fear based to me!
@ Deb:
Oooooh, fellowship ‘n’ threats with “Big Al” Mohler! Sign me up … not. 🙂
Biblical Counseling coming to the SBC’s flagship seminary this Sepember:
Counsel the Word / The Sufficiency of Scripture
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
lol @ the video.
I would love to see his audience do something similiar to Mahaney in this video that Deb posted http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZgrI2qPifk with everyone joining their voices together in one chorus and yelling “You, You, You” each time he said, “We.” Then, after effectively shutting him up, the moderator at the end would, “WE thank you” 😛
@ Deb:
Horrifying. This BS is deadly. The boys at SBC can do something anatomically unlikely to themselves.
Sorry to be off topic, but there are some interesting developments in the 'biblical counseling' arena.
David Powlison (CCEF), Heath Lambert (SBTS professor), John MacArthur and others are leading the way on biblical counseling.
They will be speaking at The Gospel and Mental Illness Conference (Grace Community Church, CA, October 6-8, 2014).
This is definitely a growing trend in the Neo-Cal camp.
@ Rafiki:
I have never heard anybody totally dismiss the use of psych meds for any reason religious or otherwise. But, you know, as far as I know we do not have SGM around here. The SBC mega and one IFB here is about as close as we get to what some of you all have experienced. But then we also have a large medical center which is a large employer of lots of folks who throw money in the plates at churches, so that might be part of the picture.
@ An Attorney:
That would be my choice of counselor, one who is also a christian.
Bob Jones has rehired G.R.A.C.E. with no changes to the original agreement!
Eureka! I have found it! The acronym CCEF (cartouche) on the plinth means ‘christian counseling & educational foundation’. I just knew that if I excavated just one more grid reference, I’d get enough clues to decipher the bugger.
__
“Together 4 Jesus?”
hmmm…
Jesus offers eternal life to all who will believe in Him.
(cuz He said so silly…)
That is His gospel. (da good news!)
simple.
ATB
Sopy
__
Reference : Deb” comment
;~)
—
@ Muff Potter:
Sorry, I should have put that in the post. Thanks for deciphering the acronym. 🙂
@ Jerry: Thanks for the update!
@ Nancy:
Rafiki is right. I've seen this kind of thing in the D.C. area, and tried to keep my own experiences re. psychotherapy under the radar, because people had *very* weird ideas.
I was in no way associated with SGM, but had friends who were.
Deb wrote:
Deb, you are spot on. In neo-Cal culture, any kind of psychological or relationship problem is called SIN. Talking about relationship problems with anyone other than a biblical counselor is called “giving a bad report”, and is labeled SIN. Seeking outside help for psych. or relationship problems is called SIN. Taking meds for mental health is labeled SIN, too. Since the only people who can help you with your SIN are in the church, the church insures itself a pa$$ive, captive flock by manipulating people’s fear of sinning against God.
@ Nancy: I was/am *far* more concerned about a doc or therapist's values and skill than their religious beliefs or lack thereof. If they're a decent person, they will respect the beliefs of others.
Compassion, skill and ethics are the bottom line, imo.
Nancy wrote:
We have a Christian radio station, that broadcasts a local pastor, who frequently states all depression is a spiritual issue, which anti depressants will not cure. This pastor also pastors a fairly good size church. (In central MA.) He is a devotee of, Mark Dever out of the DC area. I think a lot of the Calvinista types promote this type of teaching. In my area of NE CT. A large number of churches have gone to Piper or Dever as their Spiritual popes.
Worse yet, one that I know of is a Driscoll plant. Many of the younger people in these churches also believe that everything abnormal in your body or mind, can be traced back to eating the wrong foods. They are heavily into organic foods, juicing, abstaining from meat, etc. Some have refused vaccinations for their children. They are very hesitant to use the traditional medical establishment. It's a strange new world in these Calvinista type churches.
Eagle wrote:
CCEF gives a great definition, yet CCEF has seemingly been taken in, duped, by all of them. But isn't that part of the pathology of sociopaths/malignant narcissists?
They are even able to pull the wool over the eyes of those who would otherwise resist them. Powlison, Lane, the Tripps, and others may have unwittingly become "narcissistic supply." If someone took the time to review the counseling materials and books written by some of the sociopaths/narcissists and their organizations, it is likely much plagiarism of CCEF publications would be uncovered.
CCEF has very extensive ties to SGM, which go way beyond what most people think. I’ve documented them recently for an academic book that should hopefully be published later this year. I would just suggest to people that they look at Jay Adams’s teachings on church discipline and compare them with SGM shepherding ideas and Ken Sande’s legal contractualism movement (the Peacemaker movement arose out of biblical counseling). DO realize though, that there is some significant difference between Adams and CCEF on the whole New Calvinism issue, with CCEF supporting New Calvinism, and Adams being more of a traditionalist (I’ve seen him even described as a fundamentalistic Calvinist). If you look at those churches that have most closely adopted the biblical counseling model, they’re all into church discipline. Dever supports biblical counseling and has contributed to biblical counseling anthologies, and even Driscoll has adopted elements of the biblical counseling movement. What I’m concerned about is that there’s going to be cross-pollinization of shepherding practices into the Reformed movement and biblical counseling into Charismatic circles, which would be a total disaster, but seems to be the inevitable result of the New Calvinist model. Mentally ill people do not deserve to be treated as second class citizens in the church. I say that as someone who lost my faith largely because of the church’s view on mental illness.
Eagle wrote:
That’s what a non trivial number of people do. Many times until a family member or friend drags them to the emergency room for something that would have been trivial to treat medically if done sooner.
linda wrote:
Yes but…
A broken leg is just that. A broken leg.
But your mind, well that’s where my soul resides. Don’t mess with my soul you heathen doctor.
[/snark]
Nancy wrote:
You rank that above qualifications and training?
Perhaps the Evangelical Industrial Complex is pumping Mahaney & SGM at this time in hopes of tempering the negative press that should be hitting like a tsunami in May.
Nate Morales is sitting in jail in Maryland awaiting his May trial for molesting young boys while he attended Mahaney’s church. That trial should shine the spotlight on several big-shots in SGM, including Mahaney.
Brent Detwiler has written in depth about this on his blog.
Lin wrote:
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2022986998_catanzarosuspensionxml.html
@ numo:
I don’t think you can separate someone’s values from their religious beliefs, not in the area of counseling whether is be MD psych or PsyD or who knows what. Skill, yes. Pharmaceutical knowledge, yes. Values, I don’t think so.
Now as for my cancer surgeon, or the radiation oncologist or the medical oncologist–who knows and who cares about their religious beliefs. I don’t have a spiritual problem, I have cancer. But if they try to tell me what my end of life decisions ought to be, for instance, then what they believe about God would play a part in their advice. Just using that as an example.
@ Lin:
That is just awful. Sorry to hear that.
@ Deb:
Deb, you and Dee always say “follow the money”. There’s big money in the nouthetic counseling movement. Take a look at what it costs to get “certified” as a noutheitic counselor.
http://www.biblicalcounseling.com/certification
(Why did the National Association of Nouthetic Counselors, after 40 years, recently change its name to the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors?)
Maybe SGM is rebranding itself to get its share of the biblical counseling pie.
@ Nancy:
I had clinical depression and anxiety for many years. During that time, I would read Christian (and some Non Christian books) about it, and listen to sermons. I was searching for hope, a cure, healing, some relief.
This was from the time I was a pre-teen into my late twenties or early thirties. I still had depression and anxiety for several years after that time period, but I stopped looking to Christianity for a solution by the time of my late 20s/early 30s because I realized it had no solution.
Many sermons and Christian books I read about mental health problems were chock full of shame- and- blame- the- sufferer philosophy, suggested you were not trusting God enough or not praying hard enough, and/or offered other, unhelpful, simplistic advice.
TV preachers John Hagee and Charles Stanley have shamed and blamed the anxiety- and- depression- afflicted in their sermons.
Hagee seems to think depression is all a lazy state of mind, and that people choose to be depressed, if they just changed their thinking patterns and stopped having “pity parties,” and realized how awesome great God is, they would be A-OK. Stanley has shamed and discouraged Christian people from using anxiety medications in some of his sermons about anxiety.
Some Christian books / sermons I read or heard over the years (when I was looking for a cure or relief from depression and panic attacks) even suggest that any thing other than 100% religious means (such as faith, prayer alone, Bible reading, reflecting on the greatness of Jesus, etc) was an affront to God, was a sin, showed a lack of faith.
Funny these guys never teach that stuff if it’s like in the case of…. you get a flat tire on the road and phone a mechanic up for help, because you don’t know how to change a car tire yourself. I don’t see preachers scolding anyone for calling up a mechanic.
I would recommend the book, Why Do Christians Shoot Their Wounded?: Helping (Not Hurting) Those with Emotional Difficulties, by Dwight L. Carlson
The author of that books gives several anecdotes through out of how poorly many preachers and Christian lay persons deal with the topics of psychiatry, psychology, therapy, and medication. Prejudice and ignorance against mentally ill people themselves, as well as treatment ( medications and psychiatrists / psychologists) is rampant among Christianity.
@ NC Now:
As far as I know, state licensure requirements are the same for everybody. That said, I would choose a fellow believer, yes. I mentioned before that in my town there is a professional counseling group which is specifically christian and which offers a variety of options based on educational background, gender, age and experience. My daughter took one of her adopted children over there to a Quaker pastor’s wife who also has a doctorate in psych and years of experience and, of course a state license. She was very happy with the situation. So, yes, I think this sort of thing is a good idea, and apparently enough people agree with that that those folks stay in business.
@ Jenny:
I've been doing some reading on whether 'biblical counselors' should charge for their services and whether or not pastors should get referral fees.
At some point I will share my findings on what appears to be a cottage industry. 😉
Eagle wrote:
There is a growing segment of neo-Cal culture that is now into the essential oils business. Around here (MacArthur Ground Zero), this is huge among homeschooling families and with other stay-at-home moms. I know people so committed to essential oils that they have thrown every conventional medication out of their house, and vowed never to take another medication again or to give any to their children. Be on the lookout for mainstream medical treatment to be eventually labeled sinful by this culture, or at least labeled inferior, because it isn’t “biblical”.
I’m not badmouthing oils or home businesses – that’s not my point. Someone in an earlier comment mentioned lack of balance as a feature of this culture. They seem prone to extremes in everything all the time. With them it’s always either/or, never both/and. Furthermore, they label any Christian who takes a both/and view on matters they consider to be either/or as a heretic, or worse.
Very interesting info… Here is how much CCEF charges for counseling:
http://www.ccef.org/counseling/philadelphia
The website includes the following about insurance reimbursement:
There is also info about discount options and financial assistance on the CCEF website.
Paula wrote:
Another unfortunate example of evangelispeak and the gospel brand. That quote actually has no meaning. It’s not just CJ with this problem; he is only imitating an entire industrial complex that makes money by stringing random religious sounding words together punctuated periodically with “gospel” so you know it’s legit. It’s sort of like the way wannabe rappers liberally punctuate their purile balladry with the f-bomb, just so you know they are for real.
Paula Rice wrote:
I counted 10 instances of threats in my New Testament. Oddly, not one of those was a “theological threat” to “the gospel”. Saul breathed out threats and murders against the disciples. Now THOSE were some threats.
@ numo:
That’s why I spend so much time here…..I live in DC and I’ve seen this stuff in ways that other places don’t. I’ve also seen it creep into older churches in the past. I’m looking out where I am not to make sure this crap doesn’t crawl into where I am at now.
Nancy wrote:
Even then you have to be careful.
Just because someone is a Christian does not mean he or she is necessarily competent or effective at what he/she does.
I saw a blog about a year ago by a lady who had PTSD or depression or something. I can’t remember the details. I don’t have a link to it, I can’t even remember the name of the blog.
But the lady of the blog said she saw a Christian counselor. Even well-meaning Christian counselors who are not into nouthetic counseling can be time-wasters. The blog lady said the particular Christian psychologist she saw asked her why she was there.
After two sessions or so where the woman filled her in on her problems, and told her she was already a Christian, that the therapist/psychologist lady went to a black board in the room and drew two cliffs, with a cross from ‘point A’ to ‘point B’ to connect the two. It was a way of presenting the Gospel message, and how Jesus cures people of everything, yada yada.
Basically, the therapist was assuming if only her patient would really, truly, accept Jesus as Savior, and really, really believe that Jesus loved her and healed her at the cross, etc. and so forth, then her problems would vanish.
The lady who wrote the blog said she did not find this approach helpful at all. She said it was discouraging and it left her feeling deflated, that even though she had clearly explained to the therapist before that she had already trusted in Jesus as savior but that she was still having problems in spite of being a Christian – the woman psychologist would go and do this anyway.
On another visit, the psychologist lady repeated the drawing of the cross- as- bridge- over- the- cliffs. She was acting like the patient did not comprehend the Gospel and how it supposedly frees a Christian of everything.
The woman who wrote this blog said this left her feeling even more hopeless, caused her to doubt her faith. Then she decided to get a new psychologist (I can’t recall if it was a Christian or not), and the new one treated her successfully by actually dealing with her problems and helping her through them (not drawing Gospel stories on a black board).
I have seen similar situations as that described by Christians who have gone to other Christian counselors. Sometimes being a Christian is not enough.
@ Nancy: I honestly don’t understand why you would write off a doc who is Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. – a *lot* of ethics/values in *many* systems of belief overlap with the basic tenets of xtianity.
I grew up in a mixed Jewish-gentile neighborhood (in a small town with a sizable Jewish community), and I never, ever was told that religion was an issue re. who you saw in psych, or dentistry, for that matter. But I was raised Lutheran, not evangelical, and evangelicalism and fundamentalism were not dominant in that area (still aren’t, though they’re noisier these days).
@ Nancy: I have been around more than one inept (should have lost license) “therapist” who sold themselves to other evangelicals on the basis of their beliefs.
What a joke! These people were incompetent at best and did not deserve to be getting anyone’s money or wasting anyone’s time.
I would far rather see a therapist who is a decent person (regardless of professed religious beliefs or lack thereof) than someone who claims to be xtian but is just not qualified or is seriously shorted out in some way or other.
Re. this, “outsiders” are often far more objective and balanced on issues that someone from within the evangelical community might not even be able to see. Please just trust me on this one; I have reason to know.
@ Deb:
Yeah, so unless they’re state licensed providers (LCSWC, LCPC, psychologist, MD) no insurance will pay them. Most of the staff appear to lack this credential. Reimbursement rates probably have little to do with it.
Eagle wrote:
I rarely couch my opinions in such strident terms, but I can’t help but agree with you. Consider for a moment the presuppositions underlying this practice, and ask why they are not extended to other spheres? Why not biblical plumbers, Biblical librarians, or Biblical person that chops up the oatmeal for your instant packaged breakfast? It is such a transparent fraud that I have difficulty communicating with people who take it seriously. It’s like trying to have a conversations with someone who is convinced of the ethical merits of the Easter Bunny’s socio-economically stratified distribution of holiday goodies.
@ Deb:
That is a heck of a lot of money to waste for some guy to quote Bible verses at you and tell you are in sin for having depression (or whatever problem you have).
Eagle wrote:
Watch it. I used the word “regional” for the possible prevalence distribution of this stuff, and that really hurt some people’s feelings.
May wrote:
“He even forces himself on me sexually while I’m throwing up from morning sickness! Woman, Submit!”
numo wrote:
Listen to that. Here is somebody else who thinks that the distribution of religious ideas may be regionally influenced.
@ Eagle: I hear you, Eagle!
@ Daisy:
I don’t doubt it. That was just not our experience.
@ Nancy: Oh for Pete’s sake, I lived in the same area for well over 20 years and I saw many of the same things and ran into some of *the* worst frauds per supposed therapists (claiming to be xtian).
He didn’t “hurt” anybody, in my considered and not-so-unbiased opinion. I put up with one hell of a lot re. what church people and “pastors” thought about my going to therapy and taking meds. They were all well-educated but in this area, profoundly ignorant. And yes, some of them held high-powered jobs in the D.C. area.
Lin wrote:
Is this just in the Calvinista churches in the Northeast?
In the West, it’s a cultural thing that’s been growing for many years. A fair amount of people are finding they have illnesses that, if traced backwards, they think stem from poor gut health. Many are relating the poor gut health to the genetically modified foods that came on the scene in the 80’s (various opinions on the timing.) This is based off of lab rats eating the GMO corn of today and having their stomachs explode. (If I find this study I’ll link to it.)
Those who see themselves in this group, often have had 20 years of illnesses that the medical community could not identify or help effectively. Often people tell stories of just being put on anti-depressants and sleeping pills because that was the go-to answer for the docs, seemingly. This did not go well for those whose symptoms continued.
One online thyroid group quickly grew to 4,000 people because they were not able to get adequate help from the medical establishment. Mitochondria problems (the body’s natural detoxification process) also has a growing group of people identifying with that issue, too. And the list goes on.
Since Seratonin (the chemicals in our brains that make us feel happy) are produced in the gut, then poor gut health can cause depression. Some -certainly not all- people feel it is better to address the gut issues than try to take anti-depressants. The growing fad at the moment is the GAPS diet. It’s an old diet that’s been around since the early 1900’s, specifically to heal the gut. GAPS is Gut And Psychology Syndrome. (I’m not in the medical field, I’m just telling you what I hear frequently in the West.)
I’m wondering if transplants of the West into the Northeast might be bringing this with them and they happen to be connecting in the churches? In the West, these notions didn’t start in the churches. The largest communities of alternative health started in our most liberal city of Boulder, Colorado; probably because of our high rate of cancers and health conscious culture. But there are many variations on this theme, it’s not a one-size-fits-all approach to health; just a general move away from chemicals, high carb diets, and even putting healthy fats back into our diets to help feed our deprived brains. (There are a lot of vegetarians, but the GAPS group eats a lot of meat & fats.)
Having said all that, if any church tried to tell me how to eat, I would not like it. There’s enough in the Bible for them to focus on, without their having to spend what precious time we have together discussing their idea of what my body needs to eat, as if they could.
@ Nancy: You know what? You’re missing the point in a VERY big way.
I am from one of the mid-Atlantic states, and NO, evangelicals and fundies were NOT much on the landscape until recently. The closest thing we had were Methodists. 🙂
You seem not to see that there *are* regional differences, and even differences within relatively small areas (like D.C., NoVA and suburban MD).
The area where I grew up (and where I am now living) was primarily settled by Germans (Lutheran and anabaptist – i.e., Mennonite, Amish and Church of the Brethren) and Scots-Irish (Methodist and Episcopalian with some Presbyterians). A large jewish community developed here due to the proximity of the rail line from NYC to Chicago. Unfortunately, the Jewish community faded away at about the same time Amtrak took over the railroads, back in the 70s.
Evangelicals and fundies are a growing segment of the local population, but they still have not overtaken the Lutherans et. al.
Jenny wrote:
If you know where I can send off for a T shirt that says “heretic” let me know. It would be so much easier to just get that out of the way first. The thing is, both sides of almost any argument call me a heretic of some kind. Traitor to the cause. Whatever. I keep trying to remember if there was a time when I was young that I cared about that.
numo wrote:
Hope you noted this post of mine from earlier!
@ numo: and there’s a growing Catholic population – mostly new immigrants from Central America, who are filling the gap left by the Italians and Irish who have left the area.
We ran into a philosophy of counseling at a Christian Counseling Group, where the psychologist sits quietly listening to the patient. The patient is supposed to guide the psychologist where they need to go. We were in marriage counseling to the tune of $150 an hour with 2 hour appointments weekly. After a couple months we asked when the counselor was going to say or do something because it was frustrating waiting. He said that was up to us to lead the appointments. We left, never to return.
What a crock! What a huge waste of money! And this is the group that the local churches get together to financially support and send their people to. These are the counselors coming out of the local evangelical seminary.
numo wrote:
We are doing this thing again, which we did once before. I brought up the idea that indeed there might be regional differences in religious ideas. Now you are saying that I am failing to see that there are regional differences in religious ideas. Really?
Somebody got snarky about the fact that I suggested regional differences. It was not you. Check it out.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I couldn’t agree more. I’m so glad to read Seth is obviously getting professional psychiatric care & medication, but so many haven’t due to this stupid bloody thinking. I hope it heralds a better way forward in these spheres, but I wonder if they had made his parents choose between Biblical counselling & psychiatric care ( as so many had to ) what would have happened.
__
@ Rafiki:
Thanx 🙂
—
@ Nancy: Look, I’ve had a difficult afternoon and am not processing things very well at the moment.
But you didn’t have to snap at me.
@ Beakerj: Amen, beaks, amen.
@ numo:
Sorry. I did not mean to be snappy. I will be more aware of that in the future. I really like our back and forth conversations. Hope you don’t cut me off from discussion.
@ Nancy: If you’re talking about Rafiki’s comments, I saw no snark. You seem to be reading things into what Rafiki said, and, by extension, some of the things I said, as you’ve been trying to turn my comments a bit backwards. (In my opinion, at least, though maybe I am misreading somewhat, too.)
I really do need a break. Can’t seem to keep things straight this p.m. due to some news I received that has yet to sink in.
@ Nancy: No worries, but I do think you’re maybe taking others’ comments amiss.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
For the most part agreed. But I’ve also got to admit that when Stephen King, or say Nadia Bolz-Weber launches an f-missile, it does have a certain panache.
@ Katie:
………………………………
Not sure I could identify any direct West / West coast influence in regards to the diet restrictions, fear of traditional medicine, etc. The area I live in is rural, for CT. I mention this because I am pretty familiar with the local churches.
In the last 10 years or so the youth have returned from college as neo -cals, married, had children and introduced the extreme food positions into the churches.Some of them make extra income selling health products, some have hens eggs, raw milk and chickens, produce for sale. Also, some won’t even come /eat at Covered dish church suppers because the food is not organic or could be gmo contaminated. Sigh ….. food fears come before fellowship .
@ Deb:
This is a cottage industry in which people’s lives could be at stake.
Serious mental health issues should be handled by medical mental health professionals, but among the speakers at the October 2014 conference that you mentioned there is only one MD and one RN. The rest are “certified counselors” with Bible and business degrees.
As Daisy mentioned above, being a Christian doesn’t automatically make you a capable counselor. Conversely, being a state licensed counselor doesn’t make you capable, either – but at least with state licensing comes some degree of social responsibility, government oversight and a minimum required amount of continued professional education and malpractice insurance.
It appears that part of biblical counseling’s avoidance of state licensing may in fact be for the express purpose of limiting counselors’ liability and enabling them to come under their church’s umbrella policy as volunteers rather than professional counselors. Nally v. Grace Community Church of the Valley, a long and complicated court case from the 1980’s, seems to be the precedent for this.
@ Katie: I think it’s all over, in that a lot of younger people are going non-GMO and are very much into buying from local farms rather than from huge agricultural conglomerates.
But that there could be a subset of this within young neo-cal circles, I have no doubt.
@ numo: it seems of a piece with the growing anti-vaccine movement, etc. (Meaning the neo-cal organic-only types, not local food, etc.)
@ Lin:
The reason why people are returning from college as Neo-Cals is because many College Ministries (i.e. Cru, Campus Outreach, Navigators, etc…) have a Neo-Cal emphasis. I read the other day that the President of Cru's daughter attends UNC-Charlotte and is plugged into JD Greear's Church. And I stumbled across another blog the other day by a Pastor who was involved in Cru in the Midwest. He talked about how much John Piper was pushed.
It's like Nazi, Germany…you go for the youth. Whereas Hitler's propaganda machine went for the youth in creating the Hitler Youth, Hitler Maidens, etc… Today Neo-Cals go for the youth. You can indoctrinate them when they are young. It's brainwashing is what it is.
Deb wrote:
I couldn’t agree more.
@ numo:
Do they take it to a whole new level because it’s in a sub-culture in a church?
@ Eagle:
How does that work? UNC Charlotte is in, well Charlotte, and J D Greear in the Raleigh-Durham area. Now Furtick is in Charlotte. Is Greear trying to establish a branch in Charlotte and compete with Furtick? That would be something to see. If you know anything about this please I would like to know. Now if she is at UNC Chapel Hill that would work. I am just curious.
Lin wrote:
Ugh! I was at the alter receiving people who wanted prayer and before our time came to a close they would ask me to buy the product. I flat out refused to ever do any business in the church no matter what out of principle.
One woman crashed a leaders planning meeting so she could sell her stuff. I put my foot down and talked to the leadership about making some kind of announcement that this is not the place to conduct such business.
I happen to have a severely restricted diet, not of my own choosing, but so I can stay alive. Yet, I’m always at every pot luck, every dinner invitation, and every restaurant gathering. I simply take my own food so they don’t have to take me out by ambulance. Fellowship is important. Maybe they need some help in understanding how they can do both?
Eagle wrote:
Yep, I worked alongside CRU in an inner city ministry. They are not the most biblically literate group. Even the old leaders told me that they just relied on the ministry to guide their theology and what authors to read to keep them guarded and on the right path. I guess they see that as the best way to handle CRU members who haven’t had any Bible training, but have enthusiasm to reach others. I really appreciate the enthusiasm, and understand their predicament … just wish they could think more and be better trained.
Eagle wrote:
“Give me your children for five years and I will make them mine. You will pass away, but they will remain Mine.”
— A.Hitler, cult leader and RL pulp villain
Lin wrote:
Including $15,000 a pop Cancer Vaccines suppressed by the Medical Establishment Conspiracy?
@ Deb:
Hmm…perhaps an effort to present an image of, “Look, we recognize counseling is important now, so we are embracing it. We’re going to help those who are hurting now. All fixed, see?” When in reality, it is another tool to exert even greater control over those in the pews…..
@ Nancy:
I attended a couple of churches that taught depression was a sin and Christians had no business being depressed. They also taught that schezophrenia and bi-polar and other mental illnesses were nothing more and nothing less than demons and psychaitrists were evil atheists hell bent on robbing people of their faith. This stuff is taught and believed and many are greatly harmed.
numo wrote:
As long as they don’t cop the Moral Superiority Attitude about it (which a lot of them do), I have no problem.
“You Eat MEAT, don’t you? YOU GAVE YOURSELF CANCER BECAUSE YOU EAT MEAT!!!!!”
— actually got said to me at a Prostate Cancer Support Group; I think he was using his Veganism and Vitamins as his magick shield.
Lin wrote:
Actually, food taboos.
If not Orthorexia Nervosa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthorexia_nervosa
http://www.kansas.com/2014/02/25/3306283/for-those-with-orthorexia-diet.html
http://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/orthorexia-nervosa
P.S. Do these guys keep Glatt Kosher, or was that done away with by the New Testament?
@ Nancy:
My bad its the UNC campus in Raleigh-Durham. UNC Chapel Hill I believe…brain fart. I know nothing about Raleigh.
CCEF is part of the problem…it has a mindset that pastors should always be the first to counsel those within their churches. It denigrates modern psychology (more like cherry picks what it likes and disregards the rest) and has a strong emphasis on the authority of the local church.
SGM loves CCEF because it reinforces their pastoral centric ideology. Getting CCEF to confront SGM about it’s failings is like asking a drunk to make sure no one drinks at the bar….
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
………….
Hey, we even know of a 5/6 people who went to a ” health ” clinic in Mexico, to have all their teeth extracted because the fillings would give them cancer. One poor girl was only 23 years old but she married into a health nut family and the next thing we knew she was wearing dentures just like her MIL, who also went to the clinic a decade before. (have no idea how going to a duck clinic for extractions and falsies cost)
Too much of this appears to me to be, food snobbery. And for some “spiritually ” minded folks God can only bless you when you eat the way God intended creation to be.
But HUG you and me got our cancer from eating meat….they know best. Too many people have questioned if I used/use aspertane, or drink fluorinated water, received tainted polio shots as a youngster ??!! I ingest too much sugar, keep praying to be healed…on it on it goes.
Informing cancer patients, or the severely ill, of these personal speculations does nothing to actually help them. All conjecture, not edifying to the patient either.
@ numo:
Not vaccinating a child is, ipso facto, child abuse. The damage done by childhood diseases can be extensive, including paralysis, deafness, blindness, epilepsy, etc.
Lin wrote:
You know the real kicker to that, Lin?
A couple months of diagnostic limbo after being told that, I got biopsied. All twelve cores NEGATIVE. Seriously enlarged prostate, signs of tissue inflammation, but no detectible cancer (not even Gleason 6). As it stands, my PSA level is still high and Free PSA levels suspiciously low, so my urologist has me on active surveillance. In two-three weeks I go back for what may become an annual event — prostate cancer scare of the year. I was at the Prostate Cancer Support Group to line up resources in advance in case I DID get diagnosed.
@ Eagle:
……….
Brow beating and peer pressure works well on a lot of us but especially young folks away from home and trying out their wings.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Happy that is your outcome!
You should go back and tell the group your diagnosis, while eating a hamburger. 😉
@ Jeannette Altes:
I wanted to comment on this and neuthetic counseling in general. It sounds like the churches you were in followed the teachings of Jay Adams, though I could be wrong about this. I listened to about a minute of one of his lectures, that was enough; he is dismissive of all mental illnesses including depression. With regard to Christian counselors, there is this often false belief that going to a non-Christian one will cause you to lose your faith. A couple of years ago, I underwent a major crisis, (my dad was sentenced to 35 years to life for a very serious crime), and had to sort out how to deal with it. I went to a therapist who didn’t explicitly label himself a Christian counselor, but he was a decent human being who was actively involved in the Episcopal church, was a former probation officer and assisted in prosecutions of child sexual abuse cases, and was very affirming in using my faith as a means to help me come to terms with what had happened. On other occasions when I have had to seek therapy, none of which have been long-term, I have found that secular therapists have actually done well at helping with things like assertiveness training while at the same time encouraging me to use Scriptures that I found comforting in the healing process. On the other hand, my former pastor who was a big believer in Biblical counseling was not a good listener at all. I shudder to think what must happen to people who go to these Christian counselors who offer potentially harmful and dangerous advice to their clients whose depression, or abusive marriage, or thoughts of suicide have to conform to their already-prescribed Biblical answers. Just venting and thinking out loud, here, but when you wrote that your former churches taught that depression was a sin, all I could think is how could they! They ought to be ashamed!
@ numo: Hope everything's O.K. Praying for you.
@ Anony for now: err, the word I used was “subset.” I didn’t say anything about taking things to a whole new level, as you wrote.
@ Deb:
Thanks so much, Deb. It was strange news and I’m waiting to hear more, as part of what I was told doesn’t quite add up. *that* was what threw me for a loop. Long story; should be resolved soon.
@ An Attorney: I agree, but to those in the anti-vaccine camp, it’s the exact opposite. I wish it was possible to reason with them, but…
Numo
Ditto from me.
@ Jeannette Altes: I hear you re those kinds of churches. It is strange to me that I was able to function for so long in churches where many people held these beliefs, while at the same time availing myself of professional help. I think my poor emotions and gut feelings plus thoughts were in constant, painful tension with what I was “supposed” to believe. It took a real toll on me, what with the constant attempts at seeking some kind of equilibrium while dealing with such contradictory attitudes and sets of beliefs.
@ numo:
Sorry, Numo, I must have misunderstood you. I was just trying to understand why what is culturally normal in areas of the West, is concentrated in Calvinista churches of the Northeast?
numo wrote:
I’ve had success getting people to think about the opposing view that they hold to, but only if I can separate them from the group. Group think is stifling to considering differing sides to an issue.
My first child had a serious reaction to one of the vaccines. The doc didn’t advise finishing his vaccinations. I was anti-vaccine and got involved with a group that fed that thinking for awhile. Years later, I was able to think it through away from the group that allowed me to realize I needed to investigate the issues more. I then chose to vaccinate my second child, but not till he was much older and had more resources to fight off any poor responses.
Was that the right choice? I don’t know. My doc doesn’t know, either. I just try to encourage the women to think and not just follow the group think.
This is somewhat off topic, but I was at a friend’s get together once and just making conversation with one of her friends. What I said to him was “According to current research, vaccines have not been shown to cause autism,” and he promptly jumped down my throat. Note I wasn’t saying what my personal thoughts were, but just stating a fact I’d read. He turned out to be a rather crass and unfeeling person, all in the name of Jesus, unfortunately.
Over the years I have had numerous conversations with parents and grandparents who believe vaccines are dangerous.
A close friend of mine believed her granddaughter died because of an adverse reaction to a vaccine. I grieved with her.
Last year I had a lengthy conversation with someone who sincerely believes a vaccination caused his son's autism, and I empathized with him.
However, I believe the dangers of not having your children vaccinated are far greater, so both of my daughters have been fully vaccinated. Not only that, I get my flu shot every year and make sure I keep my tetanus vaccine up to date. Just my two cents…
@ andrea:
@ numo:
Growing up in this atmosphere coupled with an abusive home and sexual abuse, the one thing I needed the most – an ‘outside the group, trained perspective to listen and guide’ – was the one thing that was absolutely not acceptable. As an adult, it took nearly everything I had in me to break away from the family and the religion (still fighting the religious trappings). When you have been abused as a child, talking about it and seeking help is difficult enough without being told the psychological symptoms you are experiencing are carnal at best, and probably demonic. It’s embarrassing to admit that I used to rebuke what later turned out to be memories trying to surface. Oy!
But finally, with near abject terror, I sought a therapist – PsyD and liscensed psychotherapist with specialization in my area of damage. The LAST thing I wanted at that point was a ‘Christian’ counselor. The very idea still gives me a shiver. As it turned out, she had been raised SBC and had made her way to being an agnostic Catholic. 🙂
But she did not and does not advertise as a ‘Christian’. Being Christian is not a profession and it should not be a description of a profession…. IMHO….
And she encouraged and defended my faith more than anyone in my church or family ever had.
Just a little observation based on my perusal of the “Bible = Sole Treatment for Mental Illness” conference at SBTS this coming November.
There appears to be a deceiver in the midst of the biblical counselors. Dr. Garrett Higbee’s bio sent off a few warning bells to me: it uses very specific wording in saying that Garrett is “trained as a clinical psychologist.” I was actually impressed and surprised by this at first glance. But I did some research and discovered that Garrett was a clinical psychologist BEFORE he became a believer. After his conversion to Christianity, he also converted to nouthetic counseling.
I am guessing that Garrett is no longer a licensed clinical psychologist (that requires ongoing fees, professional education, etc.). Instead, he simply uses the “Dr.” from his degree and advertises himself as a “trained clinical psychologist.”
Am I the only one that finds it exceedingly strange that someone who is a passionate devotee of nouthetic counseling boasts about their doctoral degree in clinical psychology? Perhaps I’m missing the logic here, but I would think that having a degree in clinical psychology is NOT a positive thing in the nouthetic world. At the very least, it’s meaningless. At worst, it signifies godlessness, secularism, and distrust of God and Scripture. (NOTE: I’m trying to think from a nouthetic standpoint).
Paula Rice wrote:
It’s actually a filk of Ponyphonic’s “Lullaby for a Princess”, based on the backstory/in-universe mythology of the current version of My Little Pony.
The original song itself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zE1Phd_oJo
And a review and explanation by Jordan179 at LiveJournal:
http://fantasticworlds-jordan179.blogspot.com/2013/10/audio-review-mlp-fim-fansongs-moon.html
@ Anony for now: I have no clue, but I don’t live in the NE and was only replying to one of the other commenters. You might want to look upthread so you can ask the person who 1st mentioned this. Wish I could be of more help!
@ Deb: those who are old enough to remember the diseases that were the impetus for vaccines – well, let’s just say that what I know of it gives me cold chills. I mean: diphtheria, whooping cough, tetanus, smallpox…?????!!! Do people believe that these diseases can’t make a raging comeback? Who in their right mind would want *any* child to die/be disabled as a result of refusing to have them vaccinated???
These folks are living in a dream world – white, middle class America, where there’s nothing that can’t be cured. What a fool’s paradise. I pray that none of them ever have cause for regret.
@ Jeannette Altes: not a profession: exactly! And I have a deep distrust of those who do try to make it into their biggest professional qualification.
numo wrote:
My Mum, who was a Nurse for 47 years before her death, used to say the exact same thing Numes. The risks of the illnesses were FAR higher than those of the vaccinations, & only those who’d never seen the real thing would think otherwise.
I have older friends whose family members (still living) were deaf or disabled from childhood from things such as measles encephalitis.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
Oh yeah, I remember that. For me, it wasn’t put down to carnal and demonic but “you’re deluding yourself”, “that didn’t happen”, and when all else failed, “quit exaggerating”. I did my best to believe it.
I have sympathy for that younger person. She was doing her best with the materials at hand. At great personal cost, to be sure, but our desire was to be right before God.
I was also rescued by a Catholic PhD psychologist. Mine wasn’t agnostic but very liberal, having been raised Conservative Catholic. She was God’s hands to me, literally. And because of her, I found the real God and how very very grateful I am.
@ Anony for now:
Time was whenever some new and seemingly ridiculous idea came along we always blamed it on “California.” In fact, “California” almost became a byword for religious and social oddity. Now, if one can judge from the comments here, it does seem to be found in the mid-Atlantic and northeast areas. But maybe that is just because the people who comment happen to live in those areas. We have not heard from Kansas or Wyoming or Alabama. Some demographic studies on these phenomena would be interesting.
I have some ideas of what the explanation may be, but not everything needs talked about until there is research evidence to back it up.
One of my ideas that would be OK to say is that maybe some areas already have their share of oddities that just don’t happen to be the subject of this blog. Maybe some areas already tend to be semi-saturated with enough mess already and those prone to such have already aligned themselves with other trains of thought. I am thinking about SGM being transplanted to Louisville (my original home town) and having less than roaring success so far in Louisville. The northeast and mid-Atlantic areas have not been the traditional “bible belt” so maybe they had a disproportionate number of people who wanted and were ready for a more counter-cultural religious movement.
And maybe there is more money in the northeast and mid-Atlantic areas and the religious entrepreneurs have targeted that area for money reasons.
And maybe there are ethnic reasons. It seems to be all the white middle class that we are talking about. Maybe areas as wildly ethnically diverse as, let’s say where I live now, do not have enough white middle class population density to make it worth while to target a population like us (yet). I do note that the only places this seems to be in NC is the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill area and the Charlotte area. And even then I have not heard anybody say that either Greear or Furtick are telling people to refrain from vaccines.
And for sure, the Baptists have decided to evangelize the “heathen” up north. This has been clearly talked about for some time in “BaptistWorld.” And doing this with church planting efforts with young and, in my opinion, immature guys. Placing the immature in leadership positions is always dangerous.
So, no, I do not think that Californians extensively left the warmth and the sunshine and the cultural “freedoms” of California to migrate to snow and ice. They don’t even come to our mountains to retire. There have to be other reasons.
@ Mr.H:
You are very smart to pick up on resume nuances. That is what got me going on the John Catanzaro story. Actually this reminds of Ken Ham and AIG. He keeps a PhD or two in his stable and trots them out to “prove” that he is “scientifically” savvy.
They are playing the game of “See, we have real psychologists on board here so leave us along.”
@ numo:
Long term studies by respected scientists continue to indicate that there is no relation between vaccines and autism. But that doesn’t matter: some people just believe it. Unfortunately, many of those people are in the church and are the same ones who believe the “science” on Ken Ham’s site.
Patrice wrote:
Thank you for this comment.
@ Nancy:
Church planting by the SBC was being done in Ohio, NY and many other places in the 1950s and 1960s! I know, I was there and involved. Most were “missions” of existing churches who sent a few families and helped with money, held vacation bible schools and revivals in the target town, etc.
@ Mr.H:
@ dee:
This is ultimately all about the historic suspicion of, and downright anti-intellectualism/anti-science impulses of American evangelicalism. The same impulses are manifested in the political realm amongst conservative populists who rail against the “MSM” and “secular” academia.
Which is why it’s so weird when these nouthetic counselors, Ken Ham/Discovery Institute/the YEC crowd, and of late the evangelical naturopathic crowd trip all over themselves to boost their boost their “scientific” cred.
The mind boggles.
Nancy, yeah, lots of variation among us, +300 mil across a large country. But some stuff spreads through the nation, showing up most places but in different ways.
For eg, across the nation there is a segment of the young who are attracted to the alternative. My daughter is part of a large loose group of friends from U of Michigan, mostly “nones” or agnostic, and all are organic free-range local types. Some are vegan.
They’ve taken seriously the problems of industrial food and pollution, and have been shoved out of our overly-expensive health care system by being loaded down with student debt while also finding it tres difficult to find jobs. At the moment, only two of the bunch are actually working in the fields they’ve trained for. They feel altogether sidelined and their response is to look for alternatives.
While in college, my daughter contracted Lyme Disease while in Maine and had a terrible time finding proper medical help for it. It was repeatedly diagnosed improperly and then, when finally understood, was only given the usual short dose of antibiotics even though by this time, the bacteria had spread throughout. She had to search hard to find someone to give her IV antibiotics and after that, her body systems were compromised and it took alternative treatments (esp for immune support) to get her back to the “almost better” that she is today. This had a big impact on all her friends’ understanding of the limits of western medicine.
My daughter and bunch have some common sense (for being young) and don’t go completely opposite. (So, for eg, they see the importance of vaccinations even though it also causes some problems. Plus, antibiotics. Etc.)
But, of course there are those who will go completely extreme. The church has a higher ratio of extremists than do other groups. Neo-Cals are among them.
So I agree that there are variations across the nation. But I’d say also that for the most part, they are differences on a theme rather than altogether different issues.
@ Patrice:
I spent one summer for one course (neuroanatomy) at the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor. I was so poor that I went to a place where they paid people to give blood (and did not check on how long it had been since you last gave) so I about bled myself into a state while there. I thought the university and the town and the people were impressive.
In fact, I was impressed enough to further check out that larger geographic area just to take a look. So when I got a chance I took a week of continuing ed in Milwaukee in January. Oh, my. Now I know. That has got to be a tough and hardy bunch of folks.
dee wrote:
I belonged to a “church” community that did not believe in vaccinating children. Imagine my surprise when one of the founding elder’s grand kids ended up autistic despite receiving no vaccinations. I had the horror of watching four of my children struggle with whooping cough as it spread like wildfire through our community. It was terrifying — absolutely terrifying. It is insane to put one’s children at risk of dying from a serious disease to prevent a disorder they could likely be susceptible to anyway. I understand that many of these parents want the best for their children just as I do. However, their child could still end up with autism (a treatable disorder), and possibly dead from a childhood disease that could have been prevented.
Nancy:
🙂 It’s not usually as harsh in SW Michigan as it is in Milwaukee. The Great Lakes have huge impact, and with prevailing winds…
I also like Ann Arbor, pretty college town with big river running through it. My druthers are the Canadian west coast but since I can’t live there, I guess I’ll live in Detroit where I currently am rofl
Are you in the southeast? I have lived various places but never closer to that than Baltimore.
Giving too much blood, not such a great idea, yah. Orange juice galore, I bet.
There is absolutely no relationship between vaccines and autism. The person who published a paper showing a relationship, that started the whole anti-vaccination hysterics, was proven to be a fraud, based his findings on a very small sample and cherry-picked the data — scientific fraud has been proved.
I spent a number of years in central Michigan and one in the NW Detroit suburbs, as well as one in Chicago. The weather is milder due to the lakes, and sometimes cloudier and with more snow and rain. But the northern part of the lower peninsula, etc. is dramatically colder. But I have been out, in three different years, in Ohio, in -20 F weather. It does happen.
An Attorney, yep. And it’s been constantly frigid here this winter, as also across all the central north states. The frost has gone so deep that it is breaking old water mainlines and causing (will cause) all kinds of problems. Ach!
Something many adults may not be aware of: the Pertussis vaccine does not confer lifelong immunity. It only lasts 3-6 years, which protects children at a young age who are most likely to suffer the most serious consequences. Infants, who are too young to have yet received their first shots, often contract pertussis from an adult whose immunity has long expired. It’s something to be aware of if you are either expecting a baby or are close to someone who is, and you have not received a booster shot for pertussis in a long time.
@ An Attorney:
Have you noticed this? I think there may be a correlation here. Back in the day, it seems that for every child who “had problems” there was a claimed history of having been dropped on the head as an infant. We all just ignored that, because who would want to say that their child was “born that way.” Given the culture of the day I can understand that. Now it seems one can blame it on the vaccines.
This “blaming” thing can get bad. The year I was in psych the standard opinion about “childhood schizophrenia” was poor mother-child bonding. Many a mother saw herself blamed for her child’s condition. I would have said dropped-on-the-head or else vaccines too.
We have come a long way, but not far enough.
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
My spouse and I are in the midst of being/becoming grandparents, with a 2 yr old grandson and two grandchildren on the way, one this spring and another in the summer. We have had our pertussis boosters!!!
There is an article on/in Christian Post today that might be of interest. The writer talks about what happened in his life to transform this attitude:
–[P]eople with “weak faith” are the ones that needed [anti-depressants],… godly people did not struggle with feelings of anxiety and depression and … taking such medication would essentially be screaming to God, “I don’t trust you.”–
to this one:
–The brain, just like the liver, is an organ in the body. And scientific research has proved over and over again that chemical imbalances in the brain can lead to cases of anxiety and depression. If you would take a pill to cure the liver then why would you not do the same for the brain?–
http://tinyurl.com/o45sg8n
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Interesting stuff. In the explanation it reads, “Celestia is accusing HERSELF of vainglorious pride (one of the worst sins possible for a demi-goddess, and in Christian Mythology the one responsible for the Fall of Lucifer). What’s more, she describes the seduction of celebrity as if it were a parasite which “takes hold of the mind of its host.”
Within the context of a discussion of SGM and Mahaney it is interesting to note (in the light of this lullaby) that CJ took back his confession of pride. He claims the folks at AOR analyzed his confession as if to say it was wrong, and then Mahaney took it back, saying it hadn’t “served” others. Interesting, considering his apology was the only true thing he did in direct response to Brent Detwiler and other SGM leaders who had accused him of misconduct. I think this shows how clever he is, in knowing what he needs to say to get his way to escape censure. But when he realized his act of false humility wouldn’t serve him, he revealed he had lied which I believe proved two things:
1. “Pride” and “sin” were simply ideas he used as tools of manipulation to convince Christians they were at fault.
2. He worked to reestablish his preeminence as a “demigod” (re: the lullaby) who, in ‘truth,’ is not connected with something like pride – that Christians associate with Lucifer.
Whether Mahaney’s account is true and AOR is responsible for him taking back his confession is anybody’s guess. Whatever the case may be, I don’t believe Mahaney is a believer. I don’t see evidence of the existence of true conviction of sin or anything real arising from faith characteristic of one who is born-again. I think he acts it all out in order to be convincing. And I’ve seen him do it on numerous occasions, especially the way he over-dramatized his preaching on the Cross, as though he were slain himself. It was perverse.
Mahaney constructed a character that he played out on stage. His acts of contriteness were intended to portray the Holy Spirit’s presence, as though his awareness of sin and depravity were signs of authentic conviction. The self-deprecating lines he constructed were intended to give off the impression he’s a man led by the Lord, but the fruits of the Spirit are mere fabrications. Mahaney is left acting out “The Christian Life As Reinterpreted by CJ Mahaney” and trying to get people to buy tickets to his show. But without an audience, he’s got nothin’
@ Through a glass darkly:
Oh, and I just noticed (duh) that the author of that op-ed piece is Perry Noble. Go figure…
Paula wrote:
I don’t see how he can be, either. And that makes him a “spiritual enemy” because he is a leader telling everyone about another kind of God, not ours, and he does it with lies and power-hunger.
We are called to love our enemies, but it’s a different kind of love than we will have for our spiritual brothers/sisters.
An Attorney wrote:
And that he stood to gain financially through non-vaccine Alternative Medicine Treatments. Like Reverend Welch (who held the patent and monopoly on pasteurized non-alcoholic grape juice) preaching complete Dry while sitting on the only source for non-alcoholic communion liquid.
numo wrote:
Don’t worry. If one of their kidS dies from a preventable vaccinatable disease, they’ll just retain an attorney and SUE! SUE! SUE! SUE! SUE! anyone with Deep Pockets they can think of.
“BLAME CANADA!
BLAME CANADA!
BEFORE ANYONE CAN THINK OF BLAMING US!!!!!”
Paula wrote:
HUMBLY, of course.
(chuckle chuckle)
Did some searches on CCCF….here are some interesting articles.
These are Ed Welch….
Ed Welch on Hoarding
http://www.ccef.org/resources/blog/hoarding-first-steps-complicated-problem
Did you know that Jesus addresses Hoarding? I must have missed that? Was that addressed wehn he gave the Sermon on the Mount?
What does the King say? The New Testament describes life with Jesus as King. That life, of course, is usually the opposite of how we normally think and live. In the Kingdom we live by faith in Jesus, from start to finish. For hoarders, the task is to consider how their basic beliefs would be transformed if they really knew the King, both his presence and power. For example, in light of the Kingdom possible wrong decisions about what we discard are exposed as legalistic. Whereas Jesus draws our attention to the more important matters of love and mercy, hoarding focuses on non-essential matters. It hopes to master one realm of our world apart from faith.
Then thee is Ed Welch on violent sex.
http://www.ccef.org/resources/blog/violent-sex
This is a nobrainer…can’t the person say, “well I was reading Mark Driscoll’s Real Marriage” 😛
An Attorney wrote:
Two thumbs up!
I wonder….why are so many articles about the “Gospel” on CCCF charge a fee? Could you iamgine Jesus at the Sermon of the Mount saying the following?
“Excuse me….if you want to listen to this talk that will be $19.95. I take Roman currancy…but after you pay up…THEN we will get started.” 😛
Through a glass darkly wrote:
It’s not hard to figure . . . it became reasonable to take meds for depression when HE needed them. I hope (not holding breath) that he apologized to every person he counseled otherwise. It’s so dangerous for most young men to be elders. Most have no wisdom that comes with life/age.
@Deb – in many years of working with children with autism, I know of exactly two who seemed to truly have an adverse reaction to a vaccine that caused them to regress, and one is totally cured of his autism today through intensive behavioral intervention. I believe there are some horrible reactions, but that it’s not the majority.
Nancy wrote:
There really is a Bible belt in the Pacific Southwest. It begins in Orange and San Diego counties and extends eastward into Arizona. Various fundamentalist sects abound in this region and a large number of them are built on the megachurch model. I would also argue that the megachurch model was pioneered by Chuck Smith (now deceased) and his Calvary Chapel movement.
@ Beakerj:
My grandmother had classmates die of diphtheria in elementary school. That was in the 1930s.
One of my homeschool “classmates,” who just had her first baby, shared a blog post by an anti-vaxxer in which she seriously claimed that measles was not a dangerous disease because it only killed 200,000 or so people worldwide a year (can’t remember the exact number). Meanwhile the entire theory she’s promoting claims that even if there’s a risk of a 1-in-a-million vaccine reaction, vaccines are “too dangerous” for their children. So vaccines that kill astronomically small numbers of people, are more dangerous than diseases that kill hundreds of thousands of people a year. Only in the mind of a fundy anti-vaxxer does that make sense.
Frankly I’m actually beginning to wonder if I should get revaccinated, to avoid becoming the victim of someone else’s bad decision when one of these diseases finally does come back due to this movement.
@ Nancy: SGM is entirely a suburban thing, from the VA and MD suburb’s of D.C. it’s not exactly what I think of as “Bible belt.” Besides, they were discipleship movement charismatics until they started going neo-Cal. They came from the charismatic movement and, like many similar groups, got weird fast. (Been there, done that, have the scars to prove it.) SGM is very white, middle class and upwardly mobile. They blend into the suburban population down there, and even though there are a few non-white members, it is basically white and middle class to the core.
@ Rafiki: yep. Mark Noll’s The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind covers the territory – and history – quite well.
@ Muff Potter:
The Calvary Chapels are entrenched in Colorado, as well.
@ Muff Potter: the Orange County folks were spoofed in the TV series “Arrested Development.” Enjoyed that subplot very much! (They also appear – as intolerant jerks – in Jenni Johan’s series “Weeds.” I like it, but I doubt too many readers here would care for it.)
@ numo: jenji Kohan!!! Blasted autocorrect!!!
@ numo:
Oh,my. It sounds like maybe affluent bored!!! white middle class taking up religion, and whatever else, as a hobby. That is somewhere on a continuum between ridiculous and tragic.
@ Nancy: not so much; the charismatic movement (and beginnings of SGM) was late teens-late 20s mostly. Young, idealistic, and too easily led.
As I said, I was part of similar groups, back in the early 70s-early 00s. They morphed into other things as those who started them got older.
@ numo:
So can you describe for me the demographics of what has become SGM?
@ Nancy: not really, because I no longer live in the area and am pretty out of touch with it.
Eagle would be your best bet for this question, since he’s all too familiar with it and lives in the area. But I think white, upwardly mobile middle class is still true. Just look at the “Girl Talk” blog (run by Carolyn Mahaney and her daughters).
Back in the early-mid 80s, I was totally spooked by the Stepford Wife vibe that I got from most SGMers I met. Even though I was part of some pretty questionable groups myself, I knew I would *never* want to be part of the SGM culture, and escaped by the skin of my teeth.
@ Nancy: Mahaney came from a blue collar Catholic family (from MD suburbs); Larry Tomczack’s background was much the same, although he wasn’t a local. Can’t account for the rest of the big wheels, though some former SGMpeople could probably elucidate.
Katie wrote:
To each his or her own as they say… Nadia Bolz-Weber provides a good counter balancing effect for the folks in Denver I think.
@ Muff Potter: yes, though imo, she sometimes overcompensates. Still, I’m glad she’s around and part of my Lutheran synod!
Muff Potter wrote:
But then there’s “Colo Spgs”…
World Magazine
Part 2
“Broken minds, broken lives”
http://www.worldmag.com/2014/02/broken_minds_broken_lives#
Nancy…
I attended 2 Sovereign Grace services in my lifetime. I did so as a raging skeptic! 😛 But my vibe after being it is that Sovereing Grace is a movement for young, married people in their 20’s and 30’s. I didn’t see anyone beyond 40-45(?)
BTW…I live in the DC area.
@ Former CLC’er:
A time coincidence does not indicate a causal relationship, nor do one or two cases of time coincidence! And the who thing about vaccinations has sucked a lot of research dollars that could have be applied to learning more about autism, its causes, and potentially medical treatments (possibly cures or preventatives) that might be found or developed with research.
I love children and I hate to see them have difficulties, especially those that affect their development as healthy adults. Abuse is one of those causes, and another is developmental problems like autism. We need to focus more resources on finding the causes and cures/preventatives for all the developmental difficulties that children have.
Deb wrote:
So why no conferences on “The Gospel and Cancer”, The Gospel and Leukemia”, or “The Gospel and The Common Cold”?
This ‘Biblical’ ‘Counseling’ craze is so much bull droppings and is no different than Christian Science with respect to modern medicine, but it fits right in with the neo-Cal ‘blame the sufferer’ theology. They might as well add a little bloodletting, eye of newt, and a geek to bight of chicken heads while they’re at it.
AND THEY CHARGE FOR IT! So neo-Cal is going the way of Scientology where you have to pay for everything you get from the church. What a dangerous scam where those with a mental illness are separated from their money by scam artists using the name of God, preventing them from getting help from trained professionals who really know about mental illness.
@ An Attorney:
Amen to that.
JeffT wrote:
Scientology is also very much against the “Psychlo” mental health establishment. Instead of the Suppressive Person Mental Health Establishment (which Emperor Xenu used to rule the galaxy 75 million years ago, before mankind evolved from boohoo clams), Dianetics and Auditing. Instead of Demons and Secret Sin, Body Thetans imprinted by Xenu. (“Just like Biblical Nouthetic Counseling, Except SCIENTOLOGESE(TM)!”)
@ JeffT:
JeffT…they already have “The Gospel and Cancer” read John Piper’s “Don’t Waste Your Cancer.” Don’t you know…cancer is a gift!! God loves you so much that the cancer a person is afflicated with (pancreatic, stomach, liver, lung, etc…) is from God. He wants to give you the best gift he can…so why not liver cancer?
I’m still waiting for a confernece by CJ Mahaney on “Gospel Centered Blackmail” 😛
@ Eagle:
Two things and then I’ll hush.
If diseases are “from God” then I guess those of us who spent our professional in the health care industry are really in big trouble. Can God possibly forgive us? But wait, if “it is appointed unto man once to die”…how does that happen without disease and such? Blaaah!
However, I have learned some things about both myself and God since I have had cancer. IMO, God does not let any opportunity get past Himself for doing whatever He plans to do–however crappy the circumstances.
Eagle wrote:
that’s right, forgot about that piece of #@%* of Piper’s
Eagle wrote:
Oh this is good! I’ve seen this in action.
@ Katie:
Katie…”Gospel Centered Blackmail” goes along with….
Mark Driscoll’s “Gospel Centered Plagiarism”
Mark Dever’s “Gospel Centered You Can Hide Behind My Skirt CJ…”
John Folmar’s “Gospel Centered Tyranny”
James MacDonald “Gospel Centered Vertical Church” 😛
I could go on….but I’ll digess….
Oh…don’t forget John Piper’s “Gospel Centered Cancer” and “Gospel Centered Tornados” 😛
@An Attorney – I agree. I personally think the time has come to move past the vaccination research and move on. But I think that is what Autism Speaks and other organizations are doing, although I can’t say I keep up with their research. Ironically, the outcomes for children with autism are the best they’ve ever been because of all the interventions, but unfortunately the disorder has astronomically increased.
@whoever asked about the demographics of SGM. When I was there, I was in my 20’s and 30’s and single. There were some older singles, and a lot of marrieds around my age, but also some older. The mainstays of the church were slightly older than I was, most married. There were some blue collar folks, but a lot of white collar and pretty suburban. When I started initially, there were branches in less affluent suburbs, but we soon moved to Gaithersburg and the crowd became more yuppie-like.
@ Former CLC’er:
I think improvement in diagnosis may account for a large part of the increase. We now think in terms of a spectrum of differences in functioning, many of which were relatively rarely diagnosed in the past due to the low severity of symptoms.
Eagle wrote:
Thomas Paine wrote: “Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man”
Fascinating discovery…
Bob Kauflin sent out this tweet on February 18 (which was retweeted by C.J. Mahaney):
https://twitter.com/bkauflin/status/435779695444234240
So much suddenly going on in Phoenix relating to SGM.
Hmmm…
@ Deb:
Sounds soooo bromantic!
Number of male speakers: 7
Number of female speakers: 0
Paula wrote:
Will there be bare chests and oiled rippling pecs and abs?
(See famous pic of Vladimir Putin riding a horse bare-chested…)
@ Paula:
I wonder if we are going to hear an expository speech on “Gospel Centered Blackmail” and how to use blackmail as the foundation for your ministry!!
In other news, NASA’s New Horizons space probe is now just 4 AU from Pluto. It is due to cross the orbit of Neptune in August of this year, with its flyby of Pluto (to which it has been travelling since January 2006) due in mid-2015.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
“Four days alongside people with the common desire to worship and serve Christ.”
They couldn’t even say “men and women”. They had to generalize it to “people”.
What’s up with that? I just think that is so queer.
@ Eagle:
From the conference website:
“…imagine 12 hours of expository preaching from some of the most gifted preachers in our day…”
Most? Gifted?? In our day??? *facepalm*
Hmm, if they’re supposedly focusing on “encouraging people to value Jesus Christ above all else, in every dimension of life, as regulated by God’s Word” I’d say they’re off to a questionable start before it’s even begun, wouldn’t you?
Hilarious.
@ Eagle:
Mahaney’s bio is puny compared to Kauflin’s under the Speaker’s tab on the conference website. Maybe he had to send out a few black-emails to the conference organizers asking them to not list people alphabetically, but rather accordign to perceived rank and importance. Hardcore hierarchy! It’s all about where you stand on the ladder. The higher, the more ‘gifted’ you are. Lower down? De-gifted. I’m sorry. I mean less-gifted. Whatever. They’re all so weird.
Deb wrote:
The common denominator among the conference speakers isn’t SGM.
It’s The Master’s Seminary.
http://anchoredconference.org/speakers.html
Anchored is Resolved 2.0.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
@ Paula:
I think Mahaney needs to be “degifted” and learn how to become “humble” by being a janitor in CLC ofr a few years!! 😛
@ Paula:
I’ll see your *facepalm* and raise you a *headdesk*! 😉
Jenny wrote:
That place must be awful. I attended a New Frontiers church once that was headed by a MS grad. He was, in my opinion, not only heretical in his views on grace and salvation, but a full-blown sociopath.
@ LawProf:
I have been personally saddened by what I see come out of MS. Many men, so convinced that they are right, but evidencing absolutely none of the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Very sad, and you speak truly; I too have noticed many symptoms of NPD and SPD. It really makes one wonder about the “theology”.
I haven’t read all the comments, but remember the Girls’ new book is about to drop on March 31. It will be interesting to see how the reviews go. I think this is just an expansion of a chapter she did for another book — her chapter, of course, was called True Beauty. I have heard the book is not long.
I highly recommend Extreme Makeover by Teresa Tomeo — very comprehensive and well researched.
Dearest Paula, I think we should be very careful how we assess CJ. He may just be kinda narcissistic and not well trained. We can’t know for sure. I don’t disagree about SGM, but prudence should rule, yes?
@ Paula:
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I have A LOT of personal experience with TMS as well. I’ve seen friends change completely after attending seminary there, and not in a good way. Many TMS grads use their “sound doctrine” as justification for some very unChristlike behavior.
Paula wrote:
What I imagine reading this is a terror suspect at a third-country “black site” prison experiencing sleep deprivation after being subjected to hours and hours of “expository preaching” over loudspeakers. 🙂
Seriously, both my brain and my backside are becoming numb just imagining sitting through such a 12 hour ordeal.
Paula wrote:
Oh, I’d rather not, thankyouverymuch.
There’s a few musicians here on TWW (who are likely sensibly asleep at this early hour).
While certainly any musician seeks to connect with, energize and inspire their audiences, is this not just a wee bit … unseemly? Presumptuous? Excessively self-promoting?
As in, only Bob Kauflin (TM) music is quality AND gospel-saturated (what does that mean, really?) It’s also guaranteed – guaranteed, I tell ya! – to set one’s heart a-poundin.’
Paula wrote:
Not to be confused with the more intellectually and emotionally honest Bronies.
Paula wrote:
And people think these men are so humble.
Really?
If you have to keep telling people how gifted and talented you are…
@ elizabeth:
How long do you think one should deliberate on the matter before reaching a conclusion? A lifetime?
I can understand your point, and certainly things aren’t always clear. Time should be given before reaching a judgment, I would agree.
I can also see where your caution is appropriate, encouraging me as you are to exercise caution and to err on the side of believing the best.
But, how long has it been since the things we now know about have happened, and I don’t mean ‘have come to light’.
How many years have transpired since Wallace & HappyMom experienced their family trauma?
How long has it been since Brent Detailer exposed the documents?
When did Mahaney take his entire family and relocate to Kentucky?
What has the response been to the myriad of stories that have been shared, testifying to the fruits of an operation that was not Gospel-centered in every way, as advertised?
These all appear to me the actions of an individual in rebellion to the church. Yet, ignoring the voices of other believers whom he is not reconciled to, he puts himself out there to take the stage as a qualified preacher within a venue that lauds him as being among the most gifted preachers of today?
At what point do we apply the no-nonsense verses in the bible that describe false teachers, false apostles, false brethren, and false leaders?
I didn’t come right out and conclude Mahaney was a con-man and a fake. And I wasn’t looking to reach that conclusion either. But in all of this, everything that has happened with him and SGM, I don’t see standing before anyone a man dedicated to the truth, with a heart of love for God coupled with a discernible dedication to oobedience and conformity to His word, marked by a transparent willingness to submit to others in the Body of Christ and not the ones he hand-picks or chooses to associate himself with.
If in all this time there’s no evidence of conviction of sin and culpability but instead a brazen demonstration of independence coupled with a sense of persecution in which accounts by former members are dismissed as the words of gossips & slanderous, then at what point do we recognize this man is not one of us, and the message he delivers is not the Good News?
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
The pastor I had the displeasure of being under the tyranny of for a year and a half also served on the staff of GCC under John MacArthur HIMSELF, which appears to be another common thread amongst many of the speakers. This guy believed that if you assented to the right set of doctrines that Jesus taught, that constituted conversion, he explicitly rejected the notion that it was the mysterious work of the Holy Spirit. Could he have gotten such a notion for Mr. MacArthur? At the very least such a notion was allowed to persist by one on his ministry staff. The guy I was a parishioner under bore the fruits of such a twisted theology as well: he later nearly destroyed one church before being forced out and spawning a lawsuit that reached the state court of appeals, was dismissed from an SGM church (Perhaps for being too brutal? I don’t know, is that possible at an SGM church?), and destroyed the next church he pastored, the New Frontiers I attended, which was dissolved after about 85% of the members left. He’s now at the regional HQ for New Frontiers, hurting who knows how many people.
@ Mara:
http://some.ly/NpC04e
😉
@ LawProf:
“ANCHORED — Four days …..of heart-pounding singing …and gospel-saturated lyrics…12 hours of expository preaching….some of the most gifted preachers in our day…”
++++++++++++++
reminds me of celebrities and their handlers organizing an event to “honor so-&-so”, or for some cause, for the purposes of generating publicity for themselves.
Filmed, broadcasted, and featured in glossy magazines. An opportunity to be seen & photographed, to keep their names and image in front of people. To stimulate their careers. And plenty of others to come alongside and cash in on the business opportunities.
I predict these “conferences” & their spiffy names are soon going the way of brown polyester pants with white patent leather loafers, driving away in their powder blue station wagons.
i’ll be waving them off & away.
http://graceformyheart.wordpress.com/
@ elizabeth:
@ Jenny:
No question about it.
@ Paula:
🙂
@ LawProf:
This conference combining SGM leaders and Masters graduates is a bit mysterious to me. JMac was never very fond of Mahaney’s theology (whatever that is) so I’m not getting the purpose of the connection. As we all know, JMac is not fond of Charismatics which Mahaney most definitely used to be. I would think Masters grads and churches affiliated with Mac would want nothing to do with SGM. All I can figure is $$$$.
Jenny wrote:
Maybe Masters wanted Bob Kauflin to lead worship and Bob wanted CJ to be included?
@ Bridget
It’s interesting to see Resolved revamped at a different venue. Wondering whether John MacAuthur will be added at the 11th hour like be was with T4G.
@ Deb:
Was he added to an upcoming T4G or are you referring to a T4G past?
@ Bridget:
An announcement was made just a month ago that John MacArthur will be speaking at T4G 2014.
http://vimeo.com/m/85194489
@ Jenny:
Lol I’m with you there!
@ Bridget:
SGM books and music cds are prominently featured in the bookstores of Master’s grads’ churches, as well as in JMac’s own Grace Books International:
http://www.gbibooks.com/Search.aspx?q=mahaney
http://www.gbibooks.com/Search.aspx?q=bob%20kauflin
Besides the obvious “follow the money”, it’s anyone’s guess as to why JMac and CJ are so closely allied, especially after that whole Strange Fire business last year.
Jenny wrote:
Hope you dont mind me chiming in here, but it is curious. Without being familiar with the whole of the Strangefire affair and John MacArthur, and without looking into the ins and outs of it, I do recall reading that MacArthur holds to an anti-charismatic position, is that correct?
If true, I can understand Mahaney’s association with him. I say that because I was a member of Covenant Life Church when Mahaney was senior pastor, and during the time he secretly imported Calvinistic doctrines without explaining to the congregation what he was doing. Of course, Mahaney didnt relate to members of the church out of any sense of submission, but he knew enough that to get away with his doctrinal shift and pull the wool over everyone’s eyes, he needed to keep the whole thing quiet so that people didnt start asking questions and talking about it – which is why he blackmailed Larry Tomzcak.
Mahaney didn’t blackmail Larry Tomzcak because he cared about what had happened to the children in Covenant Life Church who had been sexually molested by Tomzcak’s son. He didn’t care about the effect of any of that upon the lives of the families supposedly under his ‘care.’ He didn’t care about any of that. The whole reason why he blackmailed Larry Tomzcak is because Mahaney didn’t want Tomzcak going public with his knowledge about Mahaney’s secret plan and how it was all orchestrated, to completely change the emphasis. That change in emphasis essentially removed all belief and practice in charismatic christianity.
Which made perfect sense, because where there is an emphasis on the charisma of God, it completely levels the playing field. Anyone – and I mean anyone, male or female – can move in the gifts of the Holy Spirit without distinction. It is the death nell to systems of hiearchy that Mahaney was keen on protecting with his whole big, fat emphasis on his manhood and his culture of Leadership. No, Mahaney moved more and more into establishing himself as the one person with all the power, and the fact the Holy Spirit empowers all believers without partiality or favoritism or respect to gender was incongrous with his quest.
There is no work of the Holy Spirit in SGM or in CJ Mahaney’s life. He has assumed a superior position over God’s people on his own. God certainly hasn’t given Mahaney his permission to assume authority over His people like he has. He’s presumed all that out of pride. And then within that assumed position, he felt it necessary to association himself with others on his ‘level’ i.e. other leaders in his ‘league’ who also held fast to the same unbiblical principles of power and leadership that he did. Mark Driscoll was one of those guys.
But Mahaney didnt want to be merely Mark Driscoll’s friend. No, he wanted to MENTOR Mark Driscoll because clearly, CJ saw his keeping it on the “low-down, humble” approach worked better than Mark’s. He wanted to soften Driscoll’s edges so Driscoll wouldn’t come across as arrogant, something Mahaney had gotten good at. But that didn’t really work out, and Mark Driscoll didnt buy into Mahaney and Mahaney wasn’t able to get in on Driscoll’s territory, conferences, speaking engagements, etc. And it’s possible Mahaney got offended at that.
So, what better way for Mahaney to move in on Driscoll’s territory, in a sense, by getting cozy with MacArthur? It’s like killing two birds with one stone. On the one hand he thinks Driscoll could be threatened by this. On the other, it works to kill the whole idea that Mahaney is charismatic. Not that the latter is what Mahaney would be willing to admit, but he might as well. He might as well join the MacAuthur camp if they’ll have him. We all know it’s not difficult for Mahaney to change his spots.
@ Paula:
Thanks for these insights. Quite thought provoking…
Deb wrote:
Fascinating.
Paula wrote:
Question is: who hitched his wagon to whom?
I hail from MacArthur Ground Zero and was a two-decade member of a church very closely affiliated with MacArthur. His long held opinion of charismatics is legendary and well documented. An unlikelier man to suddenly befriend the likes of Mahaney you would never find.
I remember when Mahaney’s name and ministry were first brought to our attention about ten years ago, and how heavily our pastors promoted his materials. Huge swaths of real estate in the church bookstore were devoted to SGM books and CDs.
Never once did anyone mention Mahaney’s charismatic background.
Suddenly our praise and worship became filled with SGM songs, our lexicon filled with terms like “cross-centered”, and the word “gospel” began to be used as an adjective. We were deluged with marketing of one conference after another featuring MacArthur, Mahaney, Mohler, et. al. All of this happened at the same time we experienced a dramatic doctrinal shift toward neo-Calvinism.
I spent years trying to figure out what happened, but finally gave up and left. Most of the friends I had there changed into people I didn’t recognize anymore. It felt like the Holy Spirit had left the building. Or had been evicted. 🙁
@ Paula:
You’ve shared some information that I haven’t seen shared out right before. I suspected this was the case and shared as much with the TWW ladies a year or so ago. A travesty . . .
@ Jenny:
Wow, it sounds like it was all done stealthily, under the radar. I sometimes click on sermonaudio.com 24/7 streaming radio and Paul Washer was on. Something about the language he uses to describe just how reprobate we all are before God saves us, e.g. all of creation will cheer when we are thrown into Hell, comes as quite a shock to the outsider looking in listening to it. First, like Piper, he is good with literary flourishes, but there was just too much loaded language in a very few sentences .. enough that the brain of a normal person just shuts down and goes into power save mode after a while. When you refer to “cross-centered” teaching within the sgm movement, is Washer’s view of just how much of a worm we all are/were part of that belief system? When I was younger, I actually used to like McArthur, not so much over the past few years, and his more patriarchal view has had a subtle influence in my former church, which, though independent Baptist was, until a few years ago, (begginning about 2010) was more healthy than most.
@ Jeannette Altes:
My experience was similar, and it’s not at all surprising. Your counselor was able to take what was good, what would empower you and help you to be strong, and used the good things in your faith as tools to help you recover. Mine did the same thing, and when some Christian friends would comment that they would go to only Christian/nauthetic counseling, then contrast how well I was doing with the one who didn’t claim to be explicitly Christian, it was a contradiction to their long-held belief system they didn’t know what to do with or how to process. It’s wonderful that the counselor you had affirmed your courage and faith. Thanks for sharing!
@ andrea:
It was the old frog-in-a-pot-of-cold-water-on-a-stove routine. By the time we realized what was happening, we were boiled. 😉
MacArthur has lost sight of Jesus’ two greatest commandments and become a noisy gong. He and the rest of the T4G & TGC guys make quite a percussion band.
@ Jenny:
That’s interesting. I didn’t know MacArthur had long promoted Mahaney & SGM stuff. And type question “who hitched his wagon to whom?” is an interesting one.
I can only speculate from the perspective of having been in SGM & in Mahaney’s church long enough to know a few things:
1. Mahaney doesn’t have a college or Seminary degree, lacks credentials.
2. Mahaney likes to read and study the thoughts of other theologians, widely quotes Spurgeon, others.
3. Regularly claims to have never had an original thought.
What Mahaney has always prided himself on are his “leadership skills” that one is led to believe is a God-given gift. However, upon closer inspection, it would seem this talent lies in studying the trends and being adept at conforming his message to the marketplace. In so doing I believe he began changing his associations and worked as quickly as possible to build his Cadre, which included selling it to his devotees who in turn agreed to foist it along with him on the SGM steeple, already groomed to accept anything they were fed without asking questions. From there new music, sermons, books were all cranked out, ready to sell to an audience beyond SGM that Mahaney knew was ready to receive it. And I tend to think MacArthur and his little Kingdom was one of the territories Mahaney’s greed had already targeted. And from what you’ve shared, Jenny, it looks to me like the plan worked like a charm.
So why would MacArthur be wishing to include Mahaney & SGM’s Music Director Bob Kauflin in the Master’s upcoming conference? Even now with Mahaney being named in a lawsuit? It must have something to do with Mahaney’s current scheme of things which is anyone’s guess. Hitching a wagon to Mahaney’s star is a pretty risky thing to do considering it’s a falling star.
But I tend to think Mahaney plotted the whole thing out initially and studied what guys like MacArthur were saying and since they had the credentials, he simply started mimicking their message (remember, no original thoughts) and conformed himself and his message to meet the requirements of their marketplace. But none of it was birthed out of a true move of God working through the gift of leadership in Mahaney to accomplish His Will imo. It was all driven primarily by greed, and people were simply used as tools. If you didn’t buy into it, then you were shown the door (or blackmailed).
Has anyone had experience using the Gospel Story Bible curriculum, which was written by Marty Machowski of SGM? It is a Sunday School program that many churches use for Kid’s Ministries. I guess it was developed at CLC. Do you have any objections to it, besides the unfavorable associations? Could you provide me any specific examples of why you would not recommend it for children? There aren’t any coloring pages of CJ Mahaney “casting vision”, right? 😉
Erik wrote:
Nope – sorry.
I hope this is helpful.
(But I suspect it’s not.)
@ Paula:
Purely speculating, but what if …
1)MacArthur sees his vintage ministry in need of a facelift
2)Mahaney sees his ministry in need of some heavyweight street cred
3)Mohler plays the matchmaker, and the rest is history
@ Jenny:
Hahaha Jenny.
I see a new conference in the making: “Mmm”
Mahaney
Mohler
MacArthur
So Mmm-manly!
@ Paula:
Sounds like the beginning of a rap song .. or of my worst nightmare. Lol!