“I lie to myself all the time. But I never believe me.” ― S.E. Hinton, The Outsiders link
Last week, Warren Throckmorton published an article on John Catanzaro who is Driscoll's "medical doctor" who diagnosed and treated him for "adrenal fatigue." More on that in a later post. Said "medical doctor" published over 18 pieces on Driscoll's Resurgence website. Suddenly, all of those articles have disappeared with no comment whatsoever from Driscoll. Well, what happened? Quite simply, Catanzaro was suspended from practicing his trade (naturopathy) because, according to King 5 News
In documents filed by the Washington Department of Health, Dr. Catanzaro is accused of treating cancer patients with an experimental vaccine but never telling them the treatment was an experiment, or that he lacked necessary approval from the FDA.
As Dr Throckmorton pointed out in his post, Dr Catanzaro has gotten into trouble before for prescribing medication such as Zithromax, an antibiotic. See the charges here. Why is this a problem? Dr Catanzaro is a naturopath and a graduate of Bastyr University which Driscoll referred to as a leading medical institution in the US. We will discuss our conversation with Bastyr University tomorrow.
A naturopath cannot intervene in an allopathic manner. Allopathic is a term used by proponents of alternative medicine to describe the prescribing of mainstream medical pharmacological active agents. It is not the purpose of this, and the following blog posts, to debate the issues surrounding alternative medicine. It is our goal, instead, to describe the actions of one naturopath and his relation to Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll.
So, we know that, at the minimum, Catanzaro appears to have pushed the boundaries of his allowable practice in the past. As I read Catanzaro's (I am so mad at the moment I cannot bear to place the word "Dr." in front of his name) credentials on his various websites, I began to grow suspicious. He claims to be associated, for the purposes of research, with Harvard's highly respected Dana Farber Cancer Institute in Boston. It is also alleged (we will get to that tomorrow) that he is an associate of the world renowned Multiple Myeloma expert at Dana Farber, Dr Ken Anderson. He also states that he is a "registered Principle Investigator for the National Institutes of Health" as well as being affiliated with a respected bio/genetics lab.
So, I found it odd that Driscoll was quickly scrubbing any reference to Catanzaro on his website. You can see the message you get if you look for him at the top of this page. Why? What is going on? What does Driscoll know and why is he not talking? Is it simply the experimental cancer vaccines that were given? Or is it more?
I got the familiar "Wartburg Tingle." Something seemed off. I used to work for Glaxo in the clinical research division and my husband is also a published researcher. Catanzaro's bio did not pass the smell test. Do you know how hard it is to be a" Principle Investigator for the NIH" and to partner with Harvard in cancer research? It's kind of like hitting the lottery twice.
I contacted Dr Throckmorton and he expressed similar concerns. Both of us started making phone calls. Over the next few days, we will be posting what we have learned and the story ain't pretty. It has consumed much of my thinking over the last 4 days. Why? My daughter survived a brain tumor which, at that time, had a poor prognosis. I know the feeling of desperation- that willingness to beg, borrow or go to the ends of the earth in order to save the life of a child or family member. That experience is the reason behind this expose.
Dr Throckmorton and I have not discussed how either of us will present the material. He and I have shared the information that we have learned during our research. I do know this. Without Dr Throckmorton's post of last week, this story could have remained hidden.
Dr. Throckmorton blogs at Patheos link.
I am Professor of Psychology at Grove City College and Fellow for Psychology and Public Policy at the Center for Vision and Values which is a part of Grove City College.
My most recent project is Getting Jefferson Right: Fact Checking Claims about Our Third President, which is a book with GCC colleague Michael Coulter. In the book, we fact-check claims often made by conservative Christians about Thomas Jefferson. The book was triggered by the publication of David Barton’sThe Jefferson Lies which brings most of those claims together. Reviews and more information can be found at GettingJeffersonRight.com.
I plan to walk you all through the process of discovery on our parts. It might serve as a template for those of you who wish to research the lives of doctors, pastors, or bloggers! And, as you will see, the "I See Things" Mark Driscoll apparently didn't see things.
So, what does Catanzaro tell us about himself?
Dr. John Catanzaro is a Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine. His alma mater is Bastyr University, a leading medical university specializing in integrative and alternative medicine. He is also affiliate clinical faculty of Bastyr University and trains medical students and physician residents.
Dr. Catanzaro is CEO of the Health and Wellness Institute and practices integrative oncology. He is also medical director of HWIFC Cancer Research Group, a not-for-profit, where he provides vision and leadership in developing innovative integrative vaccine immune strategies to treat cancer.
He is the author of numerous articles and two books, namely Cancer: An Integrative Approach and Complete by the Master’s Touch. He has been featured on radio and media broadcasts. He served on Washington State Department of Health Quality Assurance Naturopathy Advisory Committee 2000-2005 and also was a special advisor for the CDC Cancer Control Partnership for Washington State (2002-2008).
Seattle Magazine nominated him best naturopathic physician. He is a professional member of the American Association for Cancer Research, Oncology Association of Naturopathic Physicians, Association of Clinical Research Professionals, and Academy of Physicians in Clinical Research. He also completed the NIH clinical research training required for principle investigators.
Dr. Catanzaro is pioneering movement toward personalized genetic and adaptive integrative immune treatment to fight cancer. He is working in a private movement with expert Dana Farber Cancer Institute/ Harvard cancer scientists in the area of cancer proteomics and molecular genetics in developing individualized HLA matched cancer peptide strategies through a subcontract with NeoBioLabs, Cambridge Ma
Dr. Catanzaro is also founder and co-developer of HealthCoach7 a strategic personalized genetic wellness system.
Anyone catching onto the business lingo yet?
He adds a bit more over at his Health and Wellness Institute link. Read the words carefully.
He is a professional member of the American Association for Cancer Research, Oncology Association of Naturopathic Physicians, Association of Clinical Research Professionals, Academy of Physicians in Clinical Research and a registered Principle Investigator with the National Institutes of Health.
Let's take a look at the Catanzaro's old facility.
Now, take a look at his new building. Please note how nice the building looks. This is the time to drop a little tidbit. Did you know that insurances will not pay for naturopaths to give experimental, unapproved cancer vaccines? Did you know that some "experimental" vaccines can cost $15,000 a pop?!
Finally, take a look at their store. All kinds of good stuff is available if you have the dough.
So, we are left with a scrubbed Resurgence website. But, Wenatchee the Hatchet has published the links for all of Catanzaro's posts at the Resurgence from archives here. Happy reading until we return tomorrow. Yes, we are changing our schedule to accommodate this important and disturbing story.
Tomorrow, we will begin to flesh out the problems behind Catanzaro's "integrative oncology" along with the issues in his biography. In the meantime, Driscoll is so adept at scrubbing his site, I really think that Gotye was thinking of him when he penned this song.
Lydia's Corner: Jeremiah 8:8-9:26 Colossians 3:1-17 Psalm 78:32-55 Proverbs 24:27
A recent blog from DR John Catanzaro
http://hwifc.com/?p=2034
doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunperson.
memhole.
L! L! M! D!
L! L! M! D!
It sounds like this doctor is to medicine what Driscoll is to pastoring: just enough truth mixed in with chicanery to fool people. As someone who has been diagnosed by an MD with bona fide adrenal fatigue (after suffering for over 10 years and visiting doctor after doctor), and as a family who uses plenty of alternative treatments, I know this from hard-won experience: you have to be as careful about your medical practitioners (both alternative AND allopathic) as you do your pastors). People want answers. They want pain relief, both spiritual and medical. It’s just too easy to listen to anyone who tickles your ears promising relief. I look forward to your and Dr. Throckmorton’s posts.
Shouldn’t the title read “Mark Driscoll and the Cancer Quack”?
P.S. Is DOCTOR John Catanzaro anything like Doug Phillips ESQUIRE?
Or are we talking another Honorary Doctorate from Podunk Bible College?
It’s well known that Bee Jay only “Sees Things” if said things involve illicit S*E*X.
Plenty of quacks out there.
So Mark Driscoll the charlatan is pals with John Catanzaro another charlatan. Birds of a feather.
I have fibromyalgia (FM). Unfortunately, it took almost 20 years to get that diagnosis (by a rhuematologist.) For years I went from doctor to doctor and was mostly looked at as a nutcase. I found alternative medicine to be as helpful and sometime more helpful than allopathic. Nevertheless, you still want to do a lot of research and know exactly what you are getting into. That is something the average person isn’t likely to do. By the way, I think adrenal fatigue is a symptom not a separate disease. People with lots of allergies and things like FM frequently have depleted adrenal glands.
Leila wrote:
Let this tickle your ears. This was my boss for several years, this is a testimony video of what the treatment did for him. http://hwifc.com/?p=273
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Dr. John Catanzaro is a Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine. His alma mater is Bastyr University, a leading medical university specializing in integrative and alternative medicine. He also was affiliate clinical faculty of Bastyr University and trained medical students and physician residents.
Wisdomchaser wrote:
The writer of this blog seems to be very average. Not a lot of research just a lot of hearsay. Otherwise known as gossip.
Driscoll must have employed a full-time scrubber recently!
@ Sean:
Since you seam to know alot about this guy, what’s this about?
“In documents filed by the Washington Department of Health, Dr. Catanzaro is accused of treating cancer patients with an experimental vaccine but never telling them the treatment was an experiment, or that he lacked necessary approval from the FDA.”
Sean wrote:
I believe this is one part of several, Sean. Why don’t you at least wait until it has all been laid out before you pull out the gossip and hearsay and gossip cards.
JeffT wrote:
So if I wrote a blog calling Jesus a charlatan {a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill; a fraud} I am sure you would have the same response right.
Making a judgement based off of a blog without taking the time to find out for yourself who he is and what he is about is childish.
Let me get this right, because Swedish Medical, how makes billions and billions of cancer patients makes an accusation whom the government and state are in bed with, decides to come after him because after years of research, John Catanzaro is making breakthrough after breakthrough with cancer treatments and they don’t like that. It would seem people with brilliant mind like yourselves would see the smoke screen and see what is really happening…. but nah lets just name call so we feell good about ourselves. Let tear people down, because thats exactly what Jesus wants. You want proof that what this DOCTOR is doing is real and is working….Here you go!
http://hwifc.com/?p=1049
http://hwifc.com/?p=287
http://hwifc.com/?p=291
@ Bridget:
That should be “seem” not seam. I must have sewing in the mind.
And “gossip” once was enough in the next comment.
Bridget wrote:
Not at all, two individuals whom I am very close with, lives have been saved…or extended for years thus far after they were given the get your affairs in order talk because there is nothing that we can do for you.
So, if we include the “W” from Warren’s name, I can take Eagle’s nickname for you and very proudly and encouragingly say: Nice job, Dweebs 🙂
I’m sensing a chronic dishonesty problem here – – – and he’s going to be teaching university soon in a joint effort with Corban University and Mars Hill. I wonder if he’ll let his students ::: borrow::: materials for their assignments?
Is this a disappearing video act?
Bridget wrote:
So whenever the state files something against someone, it must be true then. All I know is that this Dr John guy has kept loved ones on earth with these treatments. It wasn’t a treatment that was a one size fits all chemotherapy treatment, but a treatment that was tailored to that exact person. Just seem like a lot of hate in this blog post about this guy when it really isn’t true. Then to blast him because he know this Driscoll fellow seems really odd as well.
Not to be a total grammar snob, but someone as impressive as this “Dr” wants to be should know the difference between “principal” and “principle” (“a registered Principle Investigator at the NIH”). You’re doing something so important in exposing these people for who they are.
Bridget wrote:
I talk with my boss who is in this video http://hwifc.com/?p=273 about that and he stated that he always signed before being treated that this was experimental and not FDA approved. So that is false. I am sure Dr John and his Lawyers will be addressing all these things.
But I guess in the mean time lets write nasty blogs about him.
@ Sean:
The disturbing story is about to come and it will be eyeopening. I would suggest you hold your comment about “hate” until you have seen the full story.
Scared to let y’all know my GP is a D.O. ( osteopathic physician)…..
Doesn’t do the manipulation and originally went to him after several M.D.s failed to discover a problem I had and went to him as a last resort. He took the time to study my case and figure out my problem…
Anyway, I was always wary of osteopaths, but not now, my entire family uses him or his partner as their G.P. ( my son was discovered to have a rare illness misdiagnosed by several other doctors by his partner.)
( Sorry for adding my prejudice towards D.O.s)
I wish people like this guy would quit making false claims about themselves. Period?
As for the term "adrenal fatigue," the less said, the better.
@ Sean:
I’m not sure what you are saying. You took what I said there out of context and tried to make a point that doesn’t even relate.
@ K.D.: I don’t think that osteopaths are anything like Catanzaro and his ilk. I go to an osteopath myself, and, as someone with fibromyalgia, have found manipulation helpful. (Though my doc doesn’t do it – a pt who worked with an osteopath for a long time was the one who used it as a treatment modality.)
@ Sean:
Questions are being asked and no one said anything nasty. Is the public not allowed to ask questions?
Is there scientific proof that people’s lives have been extended because of the treatments they received by Catanzaro? Or might they have experienced this outcome anyway or with other treatment as well? I’m glad that the people you know were helped. Were all his patients helped? Is he an actual MD?
The Driscoll guy has scrubbed all of Catanzaro’s articles from his church website. That is suspicious. But Driscoll scubs from his site quite a bit — when he is embarrassed about something or just doesn’t want people to access information.
numo wrote:
You're right, Numo…there are just some who lump osteopaths in with some of the questionable medical practices…
numo wrote:
Indeed! Too funny, Numo!
You’re not your
@ Bridget:
We wouldn’t want any dot connecting going on 😉
@ K.D.:
Did you not know that DO’s take the exact same medical boards as MDs and are authorized to practice exactly the same way? Hospitals allow DOs the same privileges. That is not the case for NDs.
Sean wrote:
As someone with a prostate 5x normal size who’s due for his annual Prostate Cancer scare in about three weeks (Urologist has me under surveillance for high PSA as well as BPH), I’d definitely want to hear about any effective treatment. However, is this treatment in the video legit? (Did not click on it; however, if there are any “Invasion of the Prostate Snatchers” Medical Establishment Conspiracy Theory involved, chances are it’s not legit.)
Bridget wrote:
Big Brother Driscoll has his own Ministry of Truth.
Sean wrote:
PERSECUTION!!!!! by the Vast Medical Establishment Conspiracy ups the odds that this is a quack. (My grandmother subscribed to the Alternative Medicine Mag Prevention in the Sixties; I am very familiar with the buzzwords and tactics. Not all that different from Tony Miano’s preaching.)
Sean wrote:
Sounds like we have a True Believer here.
Driscoll or the Naturopath.
Looking at the title of the post, I would have thought it was about Mark Driscoll, a 4 part series. Is it actually about Dr. C? with Driscoll as a bit player?
Which Christian trend are we Dissecting this time? Driscoll or the Naturopath?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I'ts a video of my boss. 100% true
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I remember Prevention from those days. Now they are almost totally mainstream, proper diet and excercise will cure what ails you. I don’t read it very often anymore because you can only read so many articles on how flatten your belly.
Sean wrote:
Jesus never padded his resume with false information. Got any third party information? Everything you linked to was his own propaganda. Not making any judgements on his skills but the fact that he has to grossly inflate his background isn’t encouraging.
@ Wisdomchaser:
HUG Hopefully your Urologist will find you healthy and you continue to be healthy for many years to come.
JeffT wrote:
Just wait until tomorrow.
@Dee:
That graphic at the beginning of this post, brought this to mind:
http://youtu.be/BnD6ojjA0OA
Enjoy.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Its amazing how fast he found out about us writing this post. He is a brand new commenter.
K.D. wrote:
Fixed it. 🙂
@ Dee Dee:
You caught something that I did not. I had a couple of other things on my mind. Well done!
@ dee:
Readers note: “Principle investigator”in his resume is misspelled. It is “principal investigator.” Hmmm
I’m actually confused what is the point of this new series…maybe you will clarify in future posts but at the moment it seems The Wartburg Watch is slipping into the kind of gossiping that allows guys like Driscoll to convince everyone that these discernment blogs have no value.
Driscoll made a poor choice for a doctor. That has no bearing on his job as a pastor, at least as far as I can tell. The quality of his judgment in matters that he is a (supposed) expert in does not necessarily translate into making great choices in all areas of his life. I think Driscoll is a bad guy because he promotes an authoritarian and abusive theology, is a misogynist, and has a cult of personality around him that shields him from ever having to deal with the consequences of his bad actions, enabling him to remain as an immature jackass. I don’t think Driscoll is a bad guy based on the quality of his dentist, mechanic, or doctor. Getting rid of those articles strikes me as more responsible than letting a guy that he realized was a crank continue promoting himself through Mars Hill. Considering that these guys sometimes plow ahead and keep on promoting their buddies no matter what – e.g. Mohler and Mahaney – it seems to me like Driscoll made the right decision (and that’s not something I say lightly).
What Christian trend is being dissected here? Unless all of the Calvinistas have suddenly hopped on board with dangerous alternative medicine practices, I don’t see the point of this series.
dee wrote:
Can you say “Sock Puppet”?
I knew you could…
To wit:
1) Claim of curing cancer patients who had been given up for dead by The Medical Establishment.
2) With some experimental treatment.
3) Anecdotal testimonies.
4) Claims of PERSECUTION!!!!! by the Vast Medical Establishment Conspiracy.
5) Denouncing any detractors as Gossip, Hearsay, and Gossip like something out of SGM (but not as HUMBLE, of course).
Sorry, guys, that sounds like the same shtick as every quack in history. Or Sixties-vintage Prevention magazine. Said treatment may have something to it, but the signal-to-noise ratio is too low to tell, and the above five points don’t do much for its credibility.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
With one more syllable, you can also say “astroturfing.” The shoe fits…
Doctors of Osteopathy generally do not do “manipulation” although they are a bit more likely to actually touch a patient than old school MDs. (Chiropractors, on the other hand, do manipulations, and old school ones acted like everything wrong with a person was due to something maladjusted in the spine.) DOs go to medical school, many of which are university based these days, are more likely to go into general or family practice, and regularly make referrals to M.D. specialists. Michigan State University has a MD school and a DO school, as well as a vet med school, and the faculty in all three do research related to human health, including research on treatments for cancer that are individualized based on the patient’s DNA and analysis of the molecular structures in the cancer cells of their particular cancer.
BTW, as a person who has had a spinal fracture and nerve damage in an arm, I have had extensive physical therapy and developed a deep appreciation for a certain PT who took away a lot of my pain over a several month treatment and exercise regimen.
I also respect modern chiropracty. My Dad’s cancer was discovered by a chiropractor who immediately called a cancer specialist and made an appointment that same day for my Dad after discovering a lump. Cured by chemotherapy, Dad lived another 29 years.
H@ An Attorney: most younger osteopaths are not trained to do posteopathic manipulation, true. But it’s still a core thing for many DOs, and is not anything like chiropractic, I can tell you.
There is a lot of confusion; sometimes MDs still label legit techniques as snake oil. Unfortunately.
Sean wrote:
Let me get this right, because Swedish Medical, how makes billions and billions of cancer patients makes an accusation whom the government and state are in bed with, decides to come after him because after years of research, John Catanzaro is making breakthrough after breakthrough with cancer treatments and they don’t like that. It would seem people with brilliant mind like yourselves would see the smoke screen and see what is really happening…. but nah lets just name call so we feell good about ourselves. Let tear people down, because thats exactly what Jesus wants. You want proof that what this DOCTOR is doing is real and is working….Here you go!
http://hwifc.com/?p=1049
http://hwifc.com/?p=287
http://hwifc.com/?p=291
Okay, let’s just address this standard and baseless accusation.
Do drug companies make money from the products they sell? Yes. But remember we have a capitalist economy and everybody wants – needs – to make money. If you as an individual don’t make money (don’t have an income) you can’t afford to feed, clothe, and house yourself. If a company doesn’t make money, it goes bankrupt and all its employees lose their jobs. Drug companies tend to have very big budgets, but the spend a lot of money on research. It takes a long time to get a new treatment approved for human use, and that is costly. Because they are big and expensive industries, they do often have government contacts – but no more than any other major industry or corporation (whether it’s fair that corporations have closer contact to government than individuals is a whole other kettle of fish that I won’t go into here). But to suggest there’s some shadowy conspiracy to silence poor little John is ridiculous. Not to mention kinda egotistical to claim.
Finally, if John Catanzaro has made these amazing breakthroughs you claim, then he should have published those results in peer-reviewed journals. Please direct me to some links on PubMed (or another academic source) of Catanzaro’s published, tested, and verified results.
Blergh, screwed up the quoting
These stanzas from Al Stewart’s “Joe The Georgian” seem appropos:
Originally “*sung*” by Stalin’s disappearing comrades, they could be sung by Driscoll’s:
“Now I’ve got my payment for the service that I gave
They’ve given me my ticket to this place beyond the grave
I suppose it’s kind of funny, I suppose it’s kind of sad
Thinking back on all the times we had
*******
We all set off together on this sorry ship of state
When the captain took the fever, we were hijacked by the mate
And he steered us through the shadows upon an angry tide
And cast us one by one over the side”
Thanks to Headless Unicorn Guy for bringing this song to my attention!
If John Catanzaro is exaggerating his claims to NIH and boasting of his ties to NIH then what he has done is committed a crime. In the federal government you can not impersonate another person in another part of government and not get into hot water.
Case in point…this little gem that occurred from an EPA employee who impersonated at CIA employee.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/in-the-loop/wp/2014/01/30/convicted-cia-impersonator-john-beale-heads-to-cape-cod-for-weekend/
Wisdomchaser wrote:
I hear Photoshop is really good for that. No messy dieting, just a few mouseclicks and walla! a new you. Okay, only digitally but that’s how all the supermodels and other celebrities and magazines do it.
My sister-in-law graduated from Bastyr and practices in a state where insurance covers it. There’s nothing inherently bad about naturopathy, though it’s not my cup of tea. I think that naturopaths may often make extra $ by selling supplements (as the Dr. above did in his “store”). Kinda like a hairdresser sells shampoo, etc. Conflict of interest, IMO, but it’s not illegal. I believe each person must be judged as an individual and not as a member of a group. There are bad M.D.’s out there, bad politicians, bad teachers, but good ones of all of those as well. As an individual Mark Driscoll invites skepticism and for me a big desire to steer clear.
I’d never heard of John Cantazaro before today, so I can’t comment on his specific case. I can, however, comment in general on the difficulties surrounding non-mainstream treatments, and they cut both ways.
The well-known difficulty is that of course there are shrewd self-publicists out there with fake (or genuine, but meaningless) qualifications making a lot of money selling quack remedies backed up with pseudo-science.
The less obvious difficulty is that there genuinely are little-known and non-mainstream treatments that are clinically effective. By “clinically effective” I mean that they are based on known biochemistry and not fairy-dust (the point being that they can be , they are supported by evidence and not cherry-picked data, and they are fully capable of holding their own in a rigorous trial process. As with well-known mainstream treatments, their effectiveness may be statistically significant but not absolute – in other words, they may help a large proportion of patients without completely curing them all. And finally, as with mainstream treatments, they may produce side effects (though the phrase “clinically effective” reasonably implies that the risks are small).
The secondary problem with these non-mainstream but clinically effective treatments is that, without claiming a full-blown and organised “conspiracy”, they genuinely do struggle to gain credibility or acceptance.
Lesley and I have in-depth first hand experience of this. For years, Lesley had been taking medication for asthma which, while it relieved the acute symptoms, kept her chronically dependent on medication. To cut a very long and interesting story very short, ten years ago she came across the Buteyko Method. This was developed by one Alexander Buteyko (among others) in the former Soviet Union. It does not involve drugs. Because the vast majority of clinical trials in the UK are funded by drug companies, asking them to fund a clinical trial for something that can’t possibly make them any money is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas (or Thanksgiving if that makes more sense to you). And to be fair, if I had paid employment but were asked to come up with ideas to enable my employer to get rid of me, I might be less than totally committed. Now, the public sector doesn’t market drugs. But NHS Forth Valley don’t have much of a budget for research; though they do have a budget for lawsuits and other legal settlements, and they have to, so they are extremely wary about anything unfamiliar. So the Buteyko Method can’t get the official clinical trialling it needs to gain official credibility here in Scotland; this isn’t due to an organised conspiracy so much as a disorganised stack of cultural factors.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Erratum: I obviously started revising this sentence and got distracted…!
It should read:
By “clinically effective” I mean that they are based on known biochemistry and not fairy-dust (the point being that they can be replicated elsewhere and, within reason, by anyone), …
Sorry about that… 🙁
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
…………………………………….
Absolutely! And there is LOTS of money to be made off of fear and desperation!
As I am a real life suffere of two cancers, one being Multiple Myeloma, I have become somewhat of an expert in deflecting the fear tactics àssociated with alternate (and some standard) practices of treating cancer.
Listen to any talk radio on early Sat /Sun mornings, the airwaves are inundated with selling alternate treatments for every medical ailment imaginable…..all necessary of course because “big pharma ” and “big” medicine are out to get everyone. Such slick, fear driven practices.
Meanwhile, as in Driscoll and others (Warren I think) the church is now promoting how to live a health life…….eat this. (Organic and vegan…..juice, juice, juice) exercise this way, do yoga. … on and on it goes.
I think the western church has lost it’s moorings on illness. Between faith healers and alternate medical charlatans, we little real comfort to the severely ill and dying. Do we really think some poor mother of a starving child cares to hear about giving her child Annie’s organic Mac and Cheese? We have created a society of food police and food snobbery.
Call me disgusted I can’t share my cancer at church for knowing I will be inundated with unsolicited advice, followed by anger if I don’t juice, go half way across the country for treatment at someone ‘s “miracle ” clinic. Followed by comments no wonder I am sick as I allow sugar in my diet……..sigh.
Awake early because I did have my regular (non alternative) cancer treatment yesterday.
Part of comment removed by editor.
2. I will wait and see what this ultimately has to do with Driscoll, aside from the fact that he hooked up with a fraud and is now trying to cover his tracks (standard operating procedure from lots of folks, not just Driscoll).
3. I guess what’s confusing me is why the Resurgence would be posting medical articles. What does that have to do with theology/church/Christianity? Is this gonna be another one of those “God hates Monsanto” kind of things? Like when Doug Phillips started promoting Joel Salatin?
__
“Lay Down Your Nets?”
hmmm…
“Oh, Son of God,
Oh, Son of God,
You have made me,
You have made me,
Whole…”
~ Francesca Battistelli
*
“I am offering you a chance to change your life…” ~ Jesus
__
Inspiration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TweLJRQ6T7g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyI-k-l_LK8
—
John wrote:
I frankly do not care who Driscoll uses as a doctor. I do care when he pushes his doctor via his position so that vulnerable people will make a decision to use his doctor. Perhaps today you will see what I mean.
As for the “gossip” word, it no longer has any meaning due to the methods used by authoritarian crazies who use it to shut people up. Your use of the word “gossip” really means “an inconvenient truth.” It makes Driscoll and his followers “feel bad.”
Sean wrote:
I suggest that you do some research as to what constitutes valid medical research along with what constitutes proof.
For example, let’s say someone has stomach cancer. The doctor begins chemotherapy and at the same time the sick person decides to eat 50 carrots a day and take high dose multivitamins because he heard that beta carotene and vitamins can fight cancer. One year later, the person is cancer free. So, what happened?
Unless you have controls and studies, you don’t know. Was it the chemo, the carrots or the vitamins or a combo? Or, did the patient’s own immune system kick in and fight the cancer.
You do not know what happened until you do controlled, randomized, double blind studies which are then peer reviewed by leading experts. Anecdotal reports are not proof just conjecture.
@ John:
And before I forget, if Driscoll finds out his doctor is not up to snuff, he has an ethical obligation to let people know and not play another game of “scrub my website.”
dee wrote:
……………..
Yes, Yes and yes!
@ dee:
Dee, to be “gossip” in needs to be either totally unfounded or false, kind of similar to slander or libel. But many, including some famous pastors, think that any thing negative is gossip. BTW the way they throw around “gossip”, if the applied it generally, they would call Genesis “gossip”!!!!!
@ An Attorney:
Thank you for making me laugh.
You want to know what I think is gossip? Some pastor who claims to have visions for God pushing his doctor on a website without doing some research. Such “gossip” can lead to some serious consequences for people who trust him.
As you will see today, a few phone calls and emails provided some answers that it seems our visionally pastor did not investigate.
I have been struggling with thyroid issues for around 5 years. This past year I have been to three doctors, one an endocrinologist, to try and get them to run the proper tests outside of just the TSH one. Despite the fact that both my mother and father have thyroid disease (hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism respectively) AND my grandfather died of thyroid cancer, I cannot get a doctor to listen to me when I tell them something is wrong. And this is coming from someone who has a symptom list 3 pages long.
So I understand the desperation to look for anything and everything to help. I want to get better. Period. Currently I am researching doctors in my area who might be willing to get a little more in depth testing done. Along the way I have run across many who promised to run the tests but their websites were, shall we say, extremely gimmicky. They were trying to sell something and sell a lot of it. If a healthcare provider, allopathic or not (and I have seen almost as many MDs with gimmicky sites as I have naturopaths), has a website where the whole experience is trying to sell me something, I check them off the list of potential providers for me.
The list is dwindling.
All this to say, I am glad that this “Dr.” is being found out. How disgusting that he uses so-called credentials to take advantage. I find it more than a little coincidental that he is affiliated with another person who grossly misrepresents himself with having the correct credentials.
I have no patience
Uh, not sure why that “I have no patience” snuck in at the end of my comment.
Just as an intro…Here in Arizona, we have a lot of D.O.s and, in fact, my gastroenterologist (who is helping me with acid reflux, gastroparesis and gastritis) is a D.O. I’ve also talked to a few D.O. medical students and interns and have no problem with them. Nobody’s tried to sell me snake oil. (In fact, my D.O. told me bluntly last year that although medical marijuana is legal here in AZ, it is contraindicated for my own situation, in that pot would probably slow down what should be speeded up in my digestive tract.)
That said, I think Dee has hit on something I’ve observed more than a bit of in American society as a whole, and that’s the subculture of alternative medicine, which I generally like to call “woo.” Let me be clear: I’m not at all opposed to medicine that is evidence-based. However, so much of woo is not evidence-based. And, unfortunately, there’s a lot of naturopathy which is not evidence-based. I say, “unfortunately” because I pass by a big school of naturopathy on my way to work most days and I question what people are running up big bills to learn there.
I’m going to be interested in seeing where this set of stories goes because, really, this is a very different path than I expected TWW to go down. However, I believe this is within TWW’s remit because pastors like Mark Driscoll do play an outsized role in their members’ lives, including what kind of medicine is appropriate. If MD even tacitly endorsed naturopathy, I could see Catanzaro getting quite a bit more business from MD’s endorsement.
So looking to see where this goes in a week where medicine is weighing much on my mind. Just to be brief: both of my parents were in the same hospital, on the same floor, this past weekend! My brother took in my dad on Saturday afternoon because dad was feeling poorly. He was diagnosed with a slow heart rate. A few minutes after dad was checked into the room at emergency, my mom started complaining of chest pains and asked the nurse for a nitroglycerin tablet. Well, no, she had to be checked in. So she was, and the staff quickly determined mom was actually in the throes of a heart attack! So mom had a 98 percent blockage cleared by angioplasty. Mom is at home now and dad will likely be released today. I’m glad my brother basically told my mom to “come along now” when he took dad to the hospital although you can imagine my thoughts when he called up later and said, “Are you sitting down?”
My sister was diagnosed with an early stage of breast cancer. Optimistic prognosis with every reason to expect positive outcomes. Her natural inclination was toward a touch of paranoia (the medical establishment is a conspiracy!), coupled with an evangelical environment (pray it away!) and Internet Belief Syndrome (look, it says so right here!).
She embraced the alternative medical world in all its freakish, predatory glory. Everyone knows that enough quinoa, spelt flour and vitamin supplements will make a tumor disappear.
We are raising her kids now. We all miss her.
I cannot imagine my pastor writing about his doctor on our church’s website, or allowing the Dr. to write posts etc. I take it that is what happened here.
I don’t understand a church culture that would allow that.
And then if it is discovered that the doctor is unethical in some way (which I assume is where all of this is leading), correcting that on the church’s website with the same notariety that the church previously gave the doctor would be the correct thing to do.
If fact, Driscoll could write a post saying, “I was duped!” or something like that, and warn his congreation about people who will say untrue things.
So even though I believe it is not wise and really strange for churches to promote things like the Dr. in this case, once having done so, if problems are discovered, the churches can and should provide the public with any new information, even if it is embarrassing to the church or the Dr.
Simply erasing the matter and the previous posts from the website is very defensive and less than straightforward.
But who knows. Maybe Driscoll will read this blog, and write a post about the Dr. if it is proven that there are ethical issues.
It is strange that Driscoll claims that God has allowed him to see the sexual fantasies of other people, but that God does not give him discernment in this area.
Discerning whether someone is not telling the truth in this area can be discovered by people without supernatural discernment gifts. As Dee’s posts are going to prove. Check resumes, sources etc.
Reading other people’s mind’s is a different matter. But it seems if one can do that, there’s not much than cannot be done.
dee wrote:
That logic has been transformative in my own life. After I “prepared for ministry” for several years at a Bible College, I was convinced that I knew what “truth” was. Years later, when I “was backslidden”, I took some Sociology classes at the community college nearby. By the time I was halfway through my Research Methods course, I was experiencing what Emile Durkheim described as “anomie”. I realized how subjective my influences had been, and how fear kept me trapped within a faulty subculture. It prompted my escape from fundamentalism, and catalyzed my education in the sciences.
Now, I choose to love God with all my mind. This is often viewed as hostility. Like the commentators using terms like “gossip”, “meaningless”, or “attack”. Self-preservation is instinctive, and so people react defensively when their paradigms are being shaken. What I’ve discovered so often in my life is that I desperately need to be shaken.
To TWW: keep asking questions! You are CHRISTLIKE and are setting the captives free!
As I’m reading this now, I’m reminded of what we went through last summer with my daughter, trying to find out what was wrong with her. It turns out she has Lyme disease. All the doctors we went to said her symptoms couldn’t be from Lyme disease. And we went to a lot of them. Finally we took her to a Lyme disease specialist, he diagnosed her with an acute case of long term Lyme. He looks at their blood for parasites, of which she had a lot. It’s been a long road that we’re only in the middle of. This doctor is controversial in the medical field, and doesn’t take any insurance.
http://lululyme.blogspot.com/?m=1
Here is her blog about her story.
Really off subject. Could you possibly put up a reminder at the top of your homepage about the Bill Nye vs Ken Ham Debate tonight. Go to Debatelive.org, sign in (it’s free), and enjoy. It’s 6:00pm central and 7:00pm eastern, don’t have the west coast time. As an old earth creationist I am rooting for Bill Nye. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
dee wrote:
I know, same exact boards here in TX…my doctor did his residency at a hospital in Houston, in which he and his partner were the only D.O.s…the others were M.D.s…still, there are people who look at them as quacks.
John wrote:
Trend? I see a trend, and a much bigger picture than just Calvinistas with/without alternative medicine.
There seems to be a lot of advice given by pastors and churches about:
health care and healthy living
how to raise children
how many children to have
where to send a child to school (or homeschool)
how to manage a marriage
science
dating
how to dress
mental health issues
sex
politics
money
time management
which books to read (or not to read)
even (Piper) how to give traffic directions to strangers.
All if this as if they actually knew something about it.
What is going on here? Could it be that the church has so abandoned its primary calling that it has to resort to all this to stay in business? Can it be that we have a nation of people just standing around waiting to be told what to do? Is it the celebrity culture on steroids? Or is it just one more way to draw a crowd and make money on books and such regardless of the harm done to people in the process?
You be the judge. But for sure in this specific sort of thing, anybody listening to some preacher give him/her medical advice, including just some endorsement of some particular practitioner of whatever, may well be shortening his/her life. And for sure, as part of the bigger picture, people have got to take their lives back from the shenanigans of celebrity preachers and be responsible for themselves.
Anonymous wrote:
I figure that’s a case of “What Floats MY Boat”.
K.D. wrote:
Unfortunately, those people show their ignorance.
@ Peace From The Fringes:
I am so sorry for your loss. Deb and I have two friends who went your sister’s route. They, too, passed away.
@ Nancy:
You are about to proven correct. We are awaiting one more official statement and we will proceed with the posts.
@ Wisdomchaser:
I will do so immediately. I have been a bit distracted by our investigation.
@ K.D.:
In fact, let me make a statement. i, along with my husband, would have no hesitation to see a DO for any sort of illness. And I am fully confidant that it I needed an antibiotic or a blood test, I would receive competent medical advice. My husband would have no problem practicing with, or consulting, a DO. And he is an MD-cardiologist.
@ Southwestern Discomfort:
I’m sorry to hear about your parents. I hope they are both doing well now and you are able to enjoy each other’s company for many more years 🙂 The story itself is quite amazing . . . you think one parent is going to the hospital to be cared for and because of that you find out that the other one is possibly at deaths door. I’m praying for your family.
dee wrote:
In such a case, I’d concede that the carrots and vitamins might have helped; chemo does a real number on your immune system, and maintaining health despite the chemo would be an assist.
For most of last year, I was sweating out a prostate cancer scare including a (negative) biopsy; I have a very enlarged prostate and my PSA and Free PSA indicators are VERY suspicious so my urologist has me under surveillance. During this period I made contact with a local Prostate Cancer Support Group.
As The Grateful Dead put it, “What a Long, Strange Trip it’s Been.”
First, the support group was split into two main factions — the Pro-Surgery Faction and the Anti-Surgery Faction — whose relationship with each other can be best described as “Cold War” with elements of “DIE, HERETICS!”
The leader of the Anti-Surgery Faction had been under treatment for widespread cancer for 15-20 years, and his treatment had completely arrested and stabilized the spread. He also resembled “Skully” from Fritz Leiber’s A Spectre is Haunting Texas (I understand that’s a common side effect of hormone treatment), but completely arrested progress.
Well, I could guess what side he’s on when his first question to me was “You eat MEAT, don’t you?” and the subsequent statement that “You Eat MEAT! You Gave Yourself Cancer!!!!!” Then came the spiel for VEGANISM! and VITAMINS VITAMINS VITAMINS!!! (He downplayed the $12,000 a month drug cocktail he was also on to arrest his cancer. While his diet and supplements may have assisted the treatment, he gave their role way too much emphasis.)
I found similar “One True Way” sentiments sprinkled through the support group as a whole, plus a lot of obsession with prostate cancer, spending 24/7/365 researching prostate cancer, evaluating doctors and treatments, acting as a one-man FDA/medical licensing board/prostate oncology specialist in something called “Patient Empowerment” (with its corollary of “Don’t Trust Your Doctor — He’s One Of The Medical Establisment!”). Like their cancer diagnosis had taken them over anyway, and they had no life otherwise.
Again, “What a Long, Strange Trip It’s Been.”
I have enjoyed reading your site for several months and am happy to be able to offer a bit of information. I work with NIH grants and NIH-funded researchers every day, so I know more about both than any normal person would ever want to know! A few points – 1. There is no such thing as an “NIH-registered Principle Investigator.” First, the term is “Principal” (not “Principle”) Investigator. Second, a person is either funded by NIH or he/she is not. “Registered” is not a term anyone uses. 2. You can search for NIH-funded grants by Principal Investigator name at this site –
http://projectreporter.nih.gov/reporter.cfm I did two quick searches going back 20 years and did not find anything under the name of the person in question. 3. He “completed the NIH clinical research training required for principle investigators” means nothing in terms of a person’s qualifications or the quality of his/her research.
Pam wrote:
This is also a pattern characteristic of quacks, which further confuses the issue.
(Again, I remember Medical Establishment Conspiracy Theories from reading my grandmother’s Prevention mags some 50 years ago — lotsa statements about what’s now called Big Pharma “stretching cancer patients’ lives a week or two in agony so Doctors and Medical Establishment Executives can drive new luxury cars” when Suppressed Alternative Sure Cures were available.)
It doesn’t help that the FDA is infamous for bureaucratic inertia. To the point that the US is often the LAST First World country to approve a new drug or treatment. That just fuels desperation and provides opportunities for Medical Tourism and Alternative Medicines of various types whether there’s anything to them or not.
But once you invoke Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory and PERSECUTION!!!!!, you have created a completely-closed system. From that point on, your customer base is secure; The Dwarfs are for The Dwarfs, and Won’t Be Taken In.
Given that this is SOP for quackery, when some Dr makes similar statements, how can you tell if he’s legit?
Lin wrote:
Anyone else notice the resemblance to the practices of Ken Ham, Tony Miano, the HSLDA, the Pearls, etc?
“You Eat MEAT, Don’t You? You Gave Yourself Cancer!!!!!!”
(Incidentally, Veganism has been a characteristic of various offbeat religious movements including 19th Century Spiritualism and the Seventh-Day Adventists among many others. I’m curious about how the linkage between Vegetarian and Spiritual came about.)
Anonymous wrote:
Because Driscoll endorsing Canzano (especially in the established Mars Hill Celebrity Pastor manner; there is always more room under the bus) adds an implied “GOD HATH SAID!” to the recommendation. No, make that Divine Commandment.
If I were a CELEBRITY, I could go on Oprah, say “Two Plus Two Equals Five”, and all America would Ooh and Aah over This Profound Spiritual Truth and do their best to imitate/obey. No difference if the CELEBRITY(TM) has Reverend in front of his name.
@ Nancy:
“even (Piper) how to give traffic directions to strangers”
And don’t forget, the theoretical stranger is in the theoretical woman’s BACK yard—– she might need to suggest he go elsewhere (without violating her femininity, of course).
Erik wrote:
High 5 !!!!!
Here in UK charismatic circles, it’s called “trying to work it out in your intellect”.
Actually, there are many really good things about UK charismatic circles and I love being part of such. Many of them are not remotely anti-intellectual; indeed, they are very well-rounded. But there are enclaves who still view with incredulity the idea that the intellect is for grappling with and understanding what the spirit has discerned.
@ Peace From The Fringes:
———-
Saddened to read of your loss…… sad story and outcome. God bless you raising her children.
Nancy wrote:
What is going on here? Could it be that the church has so abandoned its primary calling that it has to resort to all this to stay in business? Can it be that we have a nation of people just standing around waiting to be told what to do? Is it the celebrity culture on steroids? Or is it just one more way to draw a crowd and make money on books and such regardless of the harm done to people in the process?
You be the judge. But for sure in this specific sort of thing, anybody listening to some preacher give him/her medical advice, including just some endorsement of some particular practitioner of whatever, may well be shortening his/her life. And for sure, as part of the bigger picture, people have got to take their lives back from the shenanigans of celebrity preachers and be responsible for themselves.
Bravo! This is the root of it. It’s all about making an idol of the pulpit, making an idol of celebrity, and people giving away their God-given discernment. Didn’t Driscoll whine that Britain didn’t have any rock star preachers like him?
@ Pacbox:
today at 2:33. We really do need an up or like button here.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
———-
We are cursed and doomed for eating burger’s and cookies. Should have juiced kale, quiona, celery and strawberries in our $400.00 juicier. (Celebrity endorsed of course)
Good wishes on finding the right medical choice for your prostate issues.
@ G:
Awesome comment, G! You have stolen a bit of my thunder. I am signing you up, as well as “registering” you, as a PI for TWW. 🙂 My husband said the same thing about the “registered” part. He was an investigator in the distant past and quit long before he made it into the ranks of Principal Investigator. His name is William J Parsons MD if you wish to search it.
Thank you for doing your search. There are some people at the NIH who have confirmed your search as well as the supposedly vaunted “registered” baloney. I was most impressed with some folks that I spoke with at the NIH. They were helpful and considerate. I spoke with LaTonya in the online education department.
Dr Throckmorton and I are awaiting an official statement from another institution and we will proceed with our post about Catanzaro. Between the NIH and several organizations as well as a leader in the field of research and statements from all of them, I think it is going to raise a few eyebrows.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Truer words have never been spoken. And you will see exactly how that played out in this situation.
@ Lin:
Did you rinse that quiona several times to get the saponids out before juicing? Otherwise, ugh, too soapy tasting for my tastebuds.
@ dee:
Thank you, Dee. Sorry, I did not mean to steal any thunder! And yes, I would be thrilled to be “registered” as a TWW PI. Email me any time you need obscure biomedical research information!
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
The autism community experiences something similar. For the record, I do take my son (who has autism) to a naturopath, and since we’ve been going to see her, I have seen an improvement in his symptoms, especially his speech. However, I also understand that different therapies work in different ways on different people.
Until last year, when Matthew was discharged, we did take him to a speech therapist; we also did occupational therapy for a while. He’s in special ed at school with teachers that work with his special needs.
I’m also not of the “vaccines cause autism” persuasion. I gave my son his shots because I would prefer to have him protected from different illnesses. I’m willing to concede that in some people, vaccines can cause an adverse reaction. But right now, we just plain don’t know what causes it!
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I once had a minor run-in with a charismatic group (the Jesus Army…do you know them Nick?) over this…their rationale? ‘Jesus is the Head so he does the thinking & we are the Body so we do the doing.’
I’m just not sure if Jesus did the thinking on that one…
@ Peace From The Fringes:
So sad for both you & her children. I’m really sorry to hear they lost their Mum to cancer. I wish you all the very best as you make a life together.
dee wrote:
I googled him. From what I can tell he is a handsome twinkly devil with great taste in women. & a LOT of qualifications 🙂
I have no issue with the medical allegations being levied. However, I am not convinced on the financial allegations inferred from the two videos. I design these kinds of spaces for a living, for clients with budgets in the lower end of the spectrum, and I am not really seeing anything particularly extravagant. Looks can be deceiving and some of the cheaper options don’t look cheap anymore. Now I don’t know why they moved, but it could simply be that their lease was up and not renewable.
Exterior – (assuming they own the building and are not just leasing space inside)
The storefront (windows) looks like the cheapest grade available.
The exterior siding looks like a product that I have researched using on low income housing – it is durable, has low maintenance costs and is affordable.
Interior:
4″ resilient base – cheapest option on the market
Paint – standard
Manual operation Honey comb blinds –probably more durable and cost effective than mini-blinds – privacy is also a really important point here.
Luxury Vinyl tile – luxury is a marketing term used to describe everything from $1 sqft residential vinyl tile at Home Depot to $12 sqft premium grade tile. That particular color is available at a variety of price points.
Light fixtures – down-lights (cheap) and some pendants (huge price variation) I can’t tell if they are expensive or not – I do know that there are a lot of very cheap pendants available.
Okay so the ceilings – they are painted gypsum board in the main waiting room – same stuff people typically have in their homes. Its one of the cheapest, building products available. Yes the ceilings are high and have level changes, this is an inexpensive technique designers use to create interest. It is more expensive than a flat ceiling, but not dramatically.
Granite or Solid Surface (can’t tell) – Some granite has dropped in price so much that it is more cost effective for low-income housing than plastic laminate (formica). My medical clients are refusing to use anything but Solid Surface because it is more durable.
Glass entry – ehh – In that little bit – minor – but maybe this is an extravagance – if the space is rented it could also be a building standard that the renter has no choice in.
Doors – this is literally the only thing that has me lifting my eyebrows – and even then there are several companies that make doors like those, that are successfully competing in the cheaper commercial door market.
Furniture – again lots of different products with a similar look and dramatic price variations – looks are not telling me anything.
Larger Patient rooms: Could have been a code change – am not familiar with Seattle’s codes. Maryland had a code change several years ago that dramatically increased the required patient room size.
My point is that I do this for a living, and I can’t tell if this is a high end upgrade from these videos, but it doesn’t look like it. It is simply insufficient information. I am not saying you won’t find something questionable as you research this.
Peace From The Fringes, how very sad. I’m so sorry for the loss of your sister.
Another appropriate theme song. And a classic. 😉
Just Someone I Used to Know
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Qt_ixpI8A0
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
@ Lin:
Oh wow guys. I am so sorry. I, too, have cancer. One thing that I have been delighted to find out, though, is that cancer does not have to become the center of one’s life. And being caught in a diagnostic holding pattern (HUG) does not have to become any center either. I had seen a lot of other people’s cancer before actually getting cancer, professionally I mean, and I saw a lot of people who seemed to think that it was the biggest thing that ever happened to them, but I tried to not be judgmental since I had never experienced the big C for myself. Well, now I have. i have had surgery and radiation (slash and burn treatment) and will be on meds the rest of my life, and this will kill me if something else does not kill me first. Bad, huh? Well, actually it has some advantages. People will let me get away with saying things now that they would have had a fit about before. I get to tell my grown children that it’s now or never about some things they have put off, or else I can change the will and leave it all to missions. (I love it!) I told the powers that be at church to leave me off the very public prayer list (it really is not everybody’s business), and they thought it strange but did it. Like you, Lin, I don’t want to listen to a lot of mess. And for the first time in my life I actually prayed about dying, the process, the outcome, eternity (or not), about what I had let slip and maybe could repent of now instead of some impending face-to-face which might get messy. But, hey, I have been a believer all my life, and dying just never was much of a big deal. Here is the punch line–dying is still not a big deal. Can you imagine? That surprised me. I think it is called the peace of God which passes understanding. It is an amazing grace.
So, anyhow, now we have a little virtual on-line cluster of people with a similar problem. Who knew?
Beakerj wrote:
Well, no need to go into any detail about what I think of the rationale you’ve described, except to say that if it were spelt “ale ration” instead, it would be closer to the mark.
I know of the Jesus Army, but very little about them. TBH, I’m not sure whether that particular ration of ale is entirely representative. They are a lot more into doing than thinking, it’s probably true, but said doing tends to be among disadvantaged groups that aren’t reached by the (heavily middle-class) majority of UK churches. I suspect also that there is a great deal of honest good intention at all levels of the movement. Put it this way: if Park Fiscall were required to spend a year serving among them (if, say, non-violent means could be found to induce him to submit to anybody else’s authority), I believe he would benefit more than they.
ES wrote:
Here is photo from the Snohomish County assessors office with appraised value, improvements and land. A Google search reveals that there is one other tenant in this medical/professional building.
http://assessor.snoco.org/m/parceldisplay.aspx?parcelid=27052000203800
@ ES:
Thanks for the info! It’s amazing the variety of areas of expertise that have shared information on TWW.
Lin wrote:
I’m sorry to hear about your cancer, and also to hear that you can’t find support from a community of believers. I think you’re right about our collective loss of moorings on illness – for a start, we don’t have the grasp of the gift of healing that the early church have, and for the most part we embrace a theology that refuses even to seek it. It would be simple enough to do this collectively without loading guilt on those who were ill – but I stray, that being a whole nuther thread.
I’d go further and say we’ve not really got much in the way of answer for a lot of hardships that people face. My own is unemployment, and its various co-morbidities. As the church has become more focused on simply getting numbers through the door, and into easily-produced discipleship programs, it has become more and more geared to the relatively comfortable middle class. People, in other words, for whom life simply works, with no special effort or cleverness, and with no need to dig any deep spiritual wells in God just to make basic progress in life.
So when we come across people for whom the normal procedures for getting through life have not worked, we have no answer for them other than to patronise and infantilise them as though they must have been doing something really basically wrong. The people who lecture you on your diet (and, I don’t doubt, a hundred other petty matters) have no idea that it is sheer dumb luck on their part that they’re not in your shoes.
JeffT wrote:
I’m pretty good on Scottish mountains.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
How about single malts?
JeffT wrote:
Yeah, those too… we’re currently partway through a basic Glenmorangie, an Isle of Jura and a Glenlivet. We’ve a few unopened miniatures from Christmas, but they can wait – we don’t get through it that fast!
Next will be the topic about benny-hin and the healing quackery that is produced. Somehow money heals the populace.
I prefer to just swing through the trees and occasionally I will trust one monkey and then I’ll ask another until I get a truthful answer.
Sometimes the serpent sneaks his way into the flesh and then no man can be trusted until a person is dead. Pun intended for both sides of the coin: pharmaceuticals vs. herbals/alternatives.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
How was the Glenmorangie and Isle of Jura? When the rest of my family went to the UK a couple of years ago they youred the Oban distillery and brought home a bottle. I really liked it and it’s my favorite so far but I’ve only really tasted a handful. I don’t get through it very fast either – got several bottles of whiskey and bourbons I’ve bought over the past couple of years, all of which are still nearly full. I think I need to throw a party.
From what I remember in the bible stories at hand, Jesus/Yeshua/Christ (if that is who the author of this blog claims to follow or just accuse his followers) was born unassisted without medical assistance.
Hmmmmm. Now lets think back to that time. They didn’t offer epidurals from a “non-quack” doctor. They didn’t offer pitocin through a “perfectly safe” iv. Ya, know Mary gave birth to Christ and there was that “quack doctor” named Joseph sitting right in a pile of straw perhaps he had some rosemary, Black Cohosh or Myhrr or some other herb at hand but definitely not something from the “non-quack” docs.
Ok……I have given birth at home…….to a live child……..without a doctor…….or a midwife…….. guess I might as well be called a “quack mother.”
@ Nick Bulbeck:
“I’d go further and say we’ve not really got much in the way of answer for a lot of hardships that people face. My own is unemployment, and its various co-morbidities. As the church has become more focused on simply getting numbers through the door, and into easily-produced discipleship programs, it has become more and more geared to the relatively comfortable middle class. People, in other words, for whom life simply works, with no special effort or cleverness, and with no need to dig any deep spiritual wells in God just to make basic progress in life.””
——————————
Exactly. We’ve excluded the lame, the widow, the single, the sick, the discouraged, the unemployed, on and on, etc. etc. It’s a blind church, (and wealthy too)that has little observable behavior to include the less then, perfect, middle class family.
I brought up my own C situation, only in light of MD and other celebrity pastors, who are encroaching into the health services…they are ever increasing their territory and boundaries.
@ Nancy:
“”So, anyhow, now we have a little virtual on-line cluster of people with a similar problem. Who knew?””
————
Thanks for the shout out Nancy. 🙂 Who knows indeed. I have come to the understanding just about every dear soul has a story of something, somewhere along their journey.
I am happy to read you are comforting in the midst of sorting through the C world. I can testify that in all the my C battles, the Lord has sustained me……my body maybe dying but my spiritual mind is growing.
@ Nancy…..dang spell check…..COMFORTED, not comforting.
Bastyr University sounds very similar to a word that at its base sounds like a term in English that means corruption or impurity or illegitimate. A word I would never call anyone or think of anyone, but a term that is an apt description if such a hallowed institution. Mr Driscoll heaps praises on this medical school that really isn't a medical school makes all that mr driscoll espouses suspect — because it all doesn't make rational sense.
Has he appeared on the Jim Bakker Home Shopping Show yet?
Whoever is cleaning The Resurgence Website and net from Mark Driscoll’s “shifting feet” into his mouth..it’s a shame that he wasn’t around when Richard Nixon was in the White House. Tricky Dick could have used him…
@ JeffT:
Jura is a very good one – one of my favourites also. Very smooth and an unusual honey finish for an island malt – which are usually peaty and smokey. Glenmorangie has grown on me over time; I wasn’t that impressed the first time I tried it, years ago now.
To my mind, there are four “flavour experiences” in a glass of whisky.
1) The “bouquet” (not keen on the word but can’t think of a better one…)
2) The taste of the whisky itself
3) The finish or aftertaste of the whisky
4) The residual aroma from the empty glass, which is usually different from 1)
Glenmorangie is slightly let down in step 4), and I think that was the problem. But actually it’s a really good whisky!
BTW, if you liked Jura, you’ll probably like Knockando as well. Similar style, but from Speyside over in the east.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
HUG, you read my mind!!
Joe wrote:
YOu know, I am so glad you posted this picture! It reminded me of when a relative was remodelling her house. They lived for a very long time indeed with bits of the Tyvek prominently displayed, despite being a family of builders who could have finished it off themsleves. I finally asked, and was informed (with a smile) that “we are paying down the expense of the work before we do that. The tax people don’t raise the assessment until after the job is done, and visible Tyvek is officially considered as unfinished construction.”
In other words: There are more ways to fake a big expenditure than most of us can imagine.
Joe wrote:
Thank you – those numbers represent the cost of the parking lot, site improvements (Washington State is a leader in environmental legislation) infrastructure, and the base building – not the tenant spaces which are usually under separate permits and when the lease is up it is very common for the entire office interior to be demolished and rebuilt from scratch. Commercial and especially medical needs are just that specific.
So we are talking 1 million to develop 1/2 an acre – I ran it by a coworker who does a lot of estimates and her response was – “Now that is just the site improvements, right? Doesn’t include the building.” Me: “Includes the building” Her: “then they must not be in a very expensive area because that is cheap.”
Comparing DC to Seattle, but I am really not convinced that is extravagant now.
@ ES:
So, you are saying that this new building is not really any upgrade from the smaller white building?
Dave A A wrote:
When a ManaGawd’s pastoring style brings to mind one of the bloodiest dictators and mass-murderers of the past century, it’s NOT a good sign.
@ Dee
It could be an upgrade, and it is certainly a better working environment. Without knowing what they were paying compared to what they are paying and also if there was an increase in square footage, I really can’t say how much of an upgrade it is. However, if they were at the end of say, a ten year lease in the old space, even if they stayed their rent would have jumped and I have personally witnessed owners who wanted high rent for upping the lease on crappy office space without any improvements – if your rent is going to jump anyways and you can find something in a similar price range that is better in some way – why wouldn’t you move? Additionally, that building has room for at least two tenants. Its possible that it is at full capacity its also possible that portions of the building are vacant – we don’t even know how large the suite is. I saw a waiting room, a file room, some sort of lab, and a patient room. It usually takes several years to get a building to full occupancy. Especially in this economy.
Its possible, that they are paying for additional square footage that they do not need. But its also possible that they made an economic decision and were able to broker a deal, then work with a good architect who can design under strict budget limitations. Their designer has a good eye for color and good spacial skills – those things are not expensive.
The reality is, given the information, I doubt it was an expensive build out. It is definitely a prettier space – prettier does not equal more expensive, and staying in the old space may not have even been an option.
Slight tech problem for GBTC, and/or Deb and Dee that you may want to fix:
I just tried clicking on the link in the original post at the top that says,
“I See Things”
And I got a message in my browser saying the page cannot be found.
The link appears to be missing the “http” stuff at the front of it, in the code on the blog page.
The URL as typed in the original post starts with,
“driscoll-i-watch-molestations”
It should probably have a “http://” and/or “www.” and,
“somesite.com/driscoll-i-watch”
That link is in the paragraph that starts:
“I plan to walk you all through the process of discovery…”
I, too, am one of those people who waded through conventional doctors (about 30 of them over 32 years,) to no avail. Looking back, I can see they had the common sense info, along with telling labs, to have made a good enough diagnosis that would have stopped the damaging domino effect that followed; alas they did not. I was putty in the hands of sharks for years. I learned the hard way that I could not just trust what they were selling.
Along this bumpy road, I did begin to guess better at what made sense and what wasn’t working for me. It became less of a science and more of an art, simply because those with medical degrees were not helping me, and those hawking snake oil were far too prevalent. After about 20 years, with better guesses, I started making a turn-a-round.
I now use a particular doc, who has a medial degree along with a naturopath bent, to get my labs, get thyroid help, and to run past her medical questions to see if she can point out something I’m misunderstanding or missing altogether. I also use a few “too slick for my liking” non-docs & supplements because they seem to have helped significantly. But mostly, I’ve gone back to as many basics as possible so my body can self-correct anything that can be self-corrected if given a chance.
I can totally understand why someone would get excited about a naturopath who has helped them and want to tell others. I just think that a pastor needs more wisdom than to be that person, especially someone as high profile as Mark Driscoll. Even my doc, whom I was very pleased with, ended up being overcome by the greed of the biz, so it seems; and I’ve had to change my high recommendation to that of “proceed with caution.”
I’m left with wondering if Driscoll was simply unwise in not doing due diligence before recommending this doc to his followers, or if he has a financial arrangement with this naturopath for mentioning him?
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
This quote from a Flannery O’Connor short showed up on an Internet Monk comment thread recently:
(off topic)
@ HUG.
I saw a sad story the other day. A little eleven year old boy took his own life recently because he was teased and teased by classmates for being a MLP fan.
His name was Michael Morones. Many sites have reported about the story, here is one.
@ Daisy:
Or, wait, they said he survived the attempt. I thought I had read he did not make it. I think the article said he’s in the hospital recovering now but he may have permanent brain damage.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I thought you might appreciate the comparison! I wonder whether anyone’s tabulated an approximate number of comrades Driscoll has photoshopped out of the MH picture. In the dozens, I’m sure,
Daisy wrote:
SO THAT’S THE STORY BEHIND IT!
I’ve been seeing the name “Michael Morones” and “Michael Morones Recovery Fund” pop up on Brony site after Brony art site, but this was the first time I heard the REASON behind the kid’s condition. A couple quick searches brought these up:
http://www.deviantart.com/art/For-Michael-Morones-430086706
http://www.deviantart.com/art/The-Pinkie-Promise-431051950
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Stay-Awake-Michael-Morones-Tribute-431217146
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Michael-We-love-you-431264826
http://pixelkitties.deviantart.com/art/Andrea-Libman-Auction-Print-432225687
http://gregeyman555.deviantart.com/art/Get-better-Soon-Michael-431664546
http://evehly.deviantart.com/art/Get-Well-Soon-Michael-Morones-431241397
Given the MenaGawd who get featured on this and other similar blogs, anyone want to make odds on whether you’re more likely to find Jesus circulating among the Bronies or behind the pulpit at Mars Hill Seattle?
“For God chose the foolish things of this world (like Ponies?)…”
Daisy wrote:
P.S. THIS HAPPENED IN RALEIGH, NC!
Don’t Deb & Dee hail from there as well?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I think that’s where they live.
I hope you saw my follow up post – the last time I read about him (about 2 – 3 days ago), the little boy survived the attempt but may have brain damage.
__
Bullying in NC public schools is said to be ‘a known common occurrence’.
What?
…that ‘knowledge’ didn’t help a certain young man.
huh?
The bully’s face is always well hidden?
hmmm…
I met a brain dead child who believed in a cartoon pony,
His only ‘crime’ was that he believed ‘friendship was magic..’
It’s a hard,
It’s a hard,
It’s a hard,
It’s a hard rain gonna hall?
(tears, tears, and mo tears…)
Sopy
__
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjRSMxRYNjc
Reference: Daisy’s sad, sad comment
—
@ Sopwith:
Oh, it gets better.
Because he was a Brony, he got bullied as “the school FAG”. From experience (I went through similar), “Fag” has nothing to do with sexual behavior and EVERYTHING to do with being DIFFERENT in any way. (As a 58-year-old male Brony, I’m more likely to get accused of pedophilia than homosexuality — in the words of morning drive-time radio covering BronyCon: “They like cartoons for Six-Year-Old GIRLS! (stage whisper: Pedophiles!)”)
And I checked some of the links that came up, and made a few comments at the ABC News one. The feeding frenzy there was in full swing; some Manly Man types were posting “kid should have been tougher (unspoken: Like MEEEEEEE)”, and one was using it to push Atheism Uber Alles.
Incidentally, earlier generations of My Little Pony have been denounced from the pulpit as Satanic and Teaching Witchcraft (similar to the Satanic Panic feeding frenzy over Harry Potter); the color of the ponies’ coats was a Sekrit Witchcraft Code. (Thank you, Mike Warnke. You total Fraud.)
Daisy wrote:
If he’s been in a coma for this long, it’s not a question of “may” but “how much?”
Though his EEG did show a reaction when voice actress Andrea Libman (voice of his Best Pony Pinkie Pie) phoned him and they put the phone to his ear so he could hear her (presumably Pinkie) voice. So there’s SOMETHING left in his braincase.
(Reminded me of the story of voice actor Mel Blanc, in a coma after a bad car crash; seemed completely PVS until the neurologist started addressing Bugs Bunny instead of Mel Blanc and got a STRONG response.)