"I recently discovered a video of a convicted female sex offender that was posted by her church. At first glance, some may think this is a wonderful video about God’s love and redemption. However, a closer look exposes something much different."
See update at bottom of post
Two weeks ago today an Alabama teacher was convicted of molesting a 14 year old student after agreeing to a plea deal. She will spend six months in jail, followed by five years probation. The next day her church posted a YouTube video (more on that later).
Alicia Gray, a 28 year old math teacher, purportedly began a Facebook relationship with a high school freshman on New Years Day 2013, which in short order resulted in sexual contact. She also reportedly sent nude photos of herself to the teen.
According to the NY Daily News:
The math teacher of at least six years at Mary G. Montgomery High School in Semmes was arrested Feb. 25, 2013, and charged with second-degree sodomy, second-degree sexual abuse and being a school employee who has had sexual contact with a student younger than 19, AL.com reported.
An article posted on the All Alabama website revealed the following:
She graduated from Mary G. Montgomery about 10 years ago and, outside of school, taught a dance class to young children at a local academy, it said.
Her attorney, Christine Hernandez, said that Gray offered a "sincere apology" to the victim and his family in court on Friday, and wanted to take the plea deal "to prevent anyone from having to come in and testify."
A video featuring Alicia Gray and her empathetic pastor has attracted the attention of a number of people, including the news media. Take a look…
This video also captured the attention of Boz Tchividjian, Executive Director of GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment) and an Associate Professor of Law at Liberty University School of Law. Tchividjian — a strong advocate for victims of sexual abuse — has analyzed the video, which at first glance appears redemptive. In his post Caught on Tape, he explains his concerns about this video by writing:
Though I don’t know the intended purpose of this video, its unintended result is that it provides at least five self-serving responses by sex offenders in the church. So perhaps one redeeming consequence of this highly troubling video is to teach us more about the distorted beliefs and understandings perpetrators have about the crimes they have committed.
Then Tchividjian highlights the five self-serving (and predictable) responses by sex offenders in the church, as follows:
1. The “I’m just not that person anymore” response: This is when offenders claim that they have recently “accepted Jesus” and are not the same person that committed the sexual offense.
2. The "I understand" response: Sexual offenders often attempt to convince others that they understand the harm that they have caused to the victim.
3. The "I was inappropriate" response: Sexual offenders often label their abuse in non-abusive language in order to minimize the gravity of their offense.
4. The "I am the victim" response: Sex offenders often attempt to gain sympathy by portraying themselves as a victim of their own weaknesses and struggles.
5. The "make the victim feel guilty" response: Within the church, it is not uncommon for perpetrators (and others) to infer that the trauma victims experience as a result of the abuse is due to their own spiritual weaknesses.
Please go to Boz Tchividjian's post to read a more thorough analysis of the video. It is one of the best assessments we have ever read. We are grateful that he calls attention to the fact that the pastor shows little, if any, concern for the victim; yet this Christian leader vociferously supports the perpetrator. That stood out to us as well. Why didn't the pastor say something like this in the video:
To the victim and his family: Our hearts go out to you. We are having our church pray for you each Sunday, and our congregation stands ready to support you. We are here to listen, and we would be happy to assist you in getting any help that you may need. If you will call our church office, we will speak with you and your family immediately.
We have consistently seen pastors who publicly defend perpetrators and even testify in court on their behalf. Why do they go all out for the criminal and appear to ignore the victim? We would be very interested in your thoughts on the matter.
Please join with us in praying for this high school student who was sexually abused by his teacher. May he find peace and healing and know that he is deeply loved by Almighty God.
UPDATE (1/25/14): After receiving pushback from Boz Tchividjian, the Alabama pastor who posted the YouTube video has responded as follows:
When asked if he would go back and make the same decisions again, Wyatt said that he still would have posted the video, but wished he could have expressed better the purpose of the video and the fact that the church felt "brokenhearted" for the victim and his family.
You can read more in The Christian Post article below.
Ala. Pastor Responds to Critics Who Say He Was Wrong for Posting Video on YouTube of Teacher's Apology for Sex Abuse of Student (link)
Lydia's Corner: Jeremiah 1:1-2:30 Philippians 4:1-23 Psalm 75:1-10 Proverbs 24:17-20
Yep, as I tried repeatedly to explain to Child Marriage Guy, this sort of thing is a crime before a certain age…and people who mess with that boundary will find that out very quickly.
Great points from Boz. I appreciate his insights and assessment. Another thing that leaped out at me was that the pastor called the 14 year old victim a “young man”. It’s interesting how a 14 year old is an adult (a man) when a speaker wants to imply responsibility. I’ve also heard spokespersons refer to someone in her mid-twenties as a girl when the intent was to imply victim hood.
Pedphilia is such a dark, dark topic.
Another thing. This pastoral support video stands in marked contrast to a child molestation that a member of my congregation was arrested for a couple of years ago. It hit the front page of the local paper on Sunday morning. Many of us saw it before church. Tha man and his family had only been with us a few years. He was a bit of an odd duck, but the elementary aged son and daughter were sweet and his wife was a delight. Unwilling to assume the worst of anyone that I knew, I hoped that maybe it was a false accusation and his innocence would be soon proven. Sadly, this was not the case. I was horrified, as were all of our congregation, to piece together that he had molested his own children. As soon as his wife realized it, she went to law authorities. Our two pastors supported her and were at the home with her when the arrest was made. They stood by her through the lengthy trial. They supported her decision to bring immediate divorce proceedings. They protected her need for privacy when she needed to relocate to a nearby town and new school for her children when she was under serious threats from her perpetrator husband. The pastors, realizing that this situation far exceeded their counseling abilities, supported her in finding professional services for her and the children. I didn’t realize at the time that a pastor might support the perpetrator or even try to bring “restoration”. It defies belief.
Hmm….this is the $64,000 question. It’s one I have often asked myself. As a survivor, I have often felt that it is supporting the ‘dominant’ one over the ‘weak’ one – the victim is ‘ruined’… Hmm…. having trouble finding the words for this.
I don’t really think this is a conscious thought process in the mind of Christian leaders, but it is, I think, perceived as carrying more ‘spiritual kudos’ to help reform an abuser than help rescue a victim.
I also think, generally, people have a very difficult time accepting that they did not recognize the ‘monster’ in their midst, so they go to incredible lengths to soften the truth and make the predator a victim that needs to be understood….or someone they can ‘fix’ and make things all better. If I am right in this, then the victim would be an uncomfortable reminder that all is not well in the world they have created….and that reminder is annoying – something that you want to just go away. If you acknowledge that victim, then you have to acknowledge that there was a perpetrator…you have to acknowledge that evil exists in your midst and you couldn’t/wouldn’t stop it ….couldn’t/wouldn’t see it….you have to accept that the world – even inside the walls of the church – is not a safe place.
So….rehabilitate the perpetrator and brush the victim aside….and all is well…….
[[MOD Edit to remove the incorrect reference per the author of the comment.]]
@ Jeannette Altes:
The above was a quote from the article, not Tree….. :/
An extremely wise response from an experienced learned man.
We simply must be able to look under the surface of religious buzz words, or even of religious experiences, which sound good, but on inspection are shallow in that they sideline the victim.
The victim, a boy, was sidelined here. This testimony was all about her, her & Jesus to be sure…but in a way that minimised what she did, no matter what she said. How is that truthful? It isn’t, it’s self serving.
She wasn’t just selfish (poor poor her) she was evil & criminal. I’ve read the accounts of males molested by women as boys or youths, even when they thought they were ‘willing’ participants but realised later that they were manipulated, & the damage is horrendous & horrific.
I hope this is just an awkward stage in her very real repentence, but it comes across as self-centred. I cringed at the bits where she says she understands the results of ‘her selfish acts based on insecurities’ & how the pain that comes from it can be dealt with in God. As though she has anything to offer her victim! She needs to back off & shut up…why on earth would her victim want to run to her God, on her say-so? And then she has them right where she wants them too – the old ‘we’re both sinners so really I’m no worse than you. Aaaaaargh.
I work with 14 yr old boys on a weekly basis. They would be PATHETICALLY easy to manipulate if you had a mind to. I also have all kinds of insecurities & so on, but would never consider ‘using’ a 14 yr old to fill those gaps, the very idea makes me queasy.
Thank God for Boz!
Jeannette Altes wrote:
An excellent insight that is supported by contemporary psychological research.
Beakerj wrote:
Very true. I would add that when I was in high school there was almost a competition among jocks to see who could bed a teacher; something not lost on impressionable young freshmen. Very dark stuff.
I find the guilt trip of the victim for daring to continue to have those messy bad feelings particularly sickening. First, all of those feelings are normal and natural. Second, anger, at the very least, is in fact "of God". These twits should actually read their Bibles. Third, it really gives their game away and reveals the reason churches and Christians so often and so quickly embrace the perpetrator over the victim. They are just uncomfortable dealing with people who are outwardly in pain. A perpetrator, being a master manipulator and understanding her audience, is well-suited to presenting the outward show of repentance and feel-good glow that make everyone feel more comfortable. The victim's pain reminds them that the story doesn't actually wrap up that neat and tidy.
Finally, and most importantly, a perpetrator' s message to her victim should only ever be "I'm sorry and it's all my fault". Never, and I mean never, should she ever give implicit advice on the right way to heal and what emotions are appropriate.
But if you want to really get mad, read the comments on the All Alabama website.
Many Christians are naive about pedophiles. There are certain mental health issues with good prognoses and those with very poor outcomes. Pedophilia is in the latter category. But that doesn’t stop well-meaning but naive Christians from thinking it’s easily curable by remorse and repentance and effort.
It’s well summed up by this comment (and the responses) on Boz’s post:
http://boz.religionnews.com/2014/01/21/caught-tape-5-common-responses-sex-offenders-church/#comment-221
And the pastor responds. With the great “I didn’t mean it that way, you’re misinterpreting me” response. It’s like they take classes in how not to respond to criticism. http://www.christianpost.com/news/ala-pastor-responds-to-critics-who-say-he-was-wrong-for-posting-video-on-youtube-of-teachers-apology-for-sex-abuse-of-student-113185/
@ burntnorton:
Thanks for alerting us about the pastor's response to criticism. I have updated the post with a link to the Christian Post article you referenced.
This is off topic, but I wanted to ask for prayers for Covenant Life Church. I know it’s easy to criticize or speculate about them, but they are having a very difficult week as a church. Today is a memorial service for a long-term member and mother of young children who passed away from cancer. Then yesterday afternoon three high school girls were walking near the church after school and two of them got hit by cars that were drag racing, and one passed away. The folks at the church are really hurting. Thanks.
@ Former CLC'er:
So sorry to hear this news. I will be keeping CLC in my prayers, and I'm sure many of our readers will also be praying.
“I don’t really think this is a conscious thought process in the mind of Christian leaders, but it is, I think, perceived as carrying more ‘spiritual kudos’ to help reform an abuser than help rescue a victim.” @Jeanette Altes. Exactly. I think this is what happened w/ the Doug Wilson/Steve Sitler situation.
This is so important. I have seen this before with a child sex offender/former minister at Prestonwood Baptist who molested kids there and in Mississippi, John Langworthy. He was given the pulpit on a Sunday morning at Morrison Heights Baptist Church to confess. Then the pastor, Greg Belser, also on the new SBC ERLC council, rallied around him and his wife and said that the church had “witnessed a biblical response” and asked for people to come down, surround the offender and his wife to pray for them. People were hugging them and crying. It was grotesque. I was told before the service, people were told to put their cameras, phones and videos away. Thankfully someone sent me the video of this confession and I sent it to the police and prosecutors in MS. The news aired it also which led to 5 victims coming forward in MS which led to Langworthy’s conviction. The entire sermon that day that Greg Belser preached was focused on Langworthy and grace, forgiveness and restoration. He said that with Langworthy’s confession of “inappropriate behavior with younger males while serving at a church in MS and TX” the congregation had witnessed the gospel message. Here is a portion of that video: http://www.veoh.com/iphone/#_Watch/v21250111XtRktP7R
We know that this was a very hurtful display to Langworthy victims and others in the church that day and all who have seen this. We know there are more victims abused by Langworthy there at Morrison Heights who have not come forward yet. We hope they will call the police, begin to heal and protect other kids. Langworthy, though given a 50 year prison sentence, is not in jail. If more survivors come forward, justice is possible. The light of truth and knowledge is our greatest to tool to prevent abuse and help survivors heal.
“It wasn’t a relationship. It was a crime.” http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2014/01/it-wasnt-relationship-it-was-crime.html
Also, from the pulpit, Belser took shots at those of us who took to blogs, New BBC http://newbbcopenforum.blogspot.com/2011/06/wolves-in-music-ministry.html, to help expose the truth about Langworthy, since Belser and the elders kept trying to get me to shut up and the Clinton school district had done nothing after I called the superintendent about 9 months prior.
burntnorton wrote:
I wonder who the master manipulator may really be – is it Alicia Gray or perhaps is it her attorney? Alicia Gray read from a prepared statement. I find it difficult to accept that her attorney didn’t review the statement, and may have even suggested some edits, prior to it being read to the public.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
In such cases (of which we’ve had a couple locally), one mouthy talk-show host on local radio goes on about the 14-year-old boy as “HE SCORED!” More articulate than Beavis & Butthead, but same idea.
Fundamentalist ‘Christians’ are the biggest dupes of sexual predators. Predators are sociopaths who are expert in the art of manipulation and fundamentalists are so focused on sin and repentance that they will swallow any good acting job by a predator hook, line, and sinker. The church will then celebrate this repentance and claim it’s the work of Christ when, in fact, they were all chumped by an unrepentant, manipulative sexual predator who will simply continue on with their crimes.
What’s even worse, is that their ‘celebration’ of the perpetrator’s ‘repentance’ results in completely ignoring of the victim, or worse, condemning the victim who refuses to forgive this ‘repentance’.
What a shallow and harmful ‘Christianity’
SarahS wrote:
Not spiritual kudos. Spiritual BROWNIE POINTS. More descriptive.
During my time in-country in the Seventies, there was this idea (Witnessing motivation?) that God rewards you in Heaven for each convert you Led to Christ(TM). And the bigger “celebrity” the sinner and worse (and juicier) their sin, the more brownie points you could cash in at the Bema. I wonder if something like that was involved.
Or it could just be pastors always siding with the molestor instead of the victim on general principle — that’s covered a lot here at TWW and a lot of the linked blogs.
Janey wrote:
The usual proof texts are “What is impossible for man is possible for GOD” and “New Creature in Christ”. (The latter often becomes “just say The Sinner’s Prayer(TM) and AcceptJeesusChristAsYourPersonalLORDandSavior (all one word) and POOF! That’s it! Instant complete change! (And you have to show this externally from now on…)
And from personal experience with a sociopath, I can attest that they can turn the Sincere Total Remorse and Truly Sorry For My Sins on and off like a light switch. Click On, Click Off as needed.
I think that Jeannette is absolutely right about the psychology involved in churches neglecting victims. Beakerj raises a theological issue that I think is very important as well, the idea that we are all sinners and no one is any better than anyone else. I would really like to have some discussion about this. It is certainly true that we are saved by grace rather than earning it through avoiding sin and doing good works. It is also true that we all continue to sin. But how do so many Christians go from those ideas to the idea that all sins are equally bad and that it is wrong to be skeptical about whether a confessed sinner should be trusted in situations where they could once again give into temptation?
Let’s say that I am working with another church member to plan a program and we get stressed because instructional materials are late arriving and she is a little short in speaking to me. I can easily forgive her when she apologizes; it is done and over. I am not damaged, the church is not damaged. But if a church member is sexually attracted to children, puts himself in a position of trust and access by volunteering for the Sunday School, engineers situations where he can be alone with a child, molests multiple children over time, these are heinous sins which damage the victims, their families, and the church. How can one sin possibly equate with the other? Should I respond to him with quick forgiveness and treat him as if it never happened?
If the pedophile is caught and tells us that he has genuinely repented now, I have to ask why he wasn’t listening to the Holy Spirit during his ongoing crimes. Why did he plot to do something he knew was wrong? And if I hear him using weasel words and minimizing his crimes and blaming victims I will know he is not repentant. I can’t judge his relationship with God but as a responsible citizen I would support criminal penalties in the judicial system, not argue for special leniency. I would not support him returning to our church where the children would be frightened and I would argue that his acceptance into another church should be conditional on his accepting boundaries and close supervision. Assistance to the victims and preventing further abuse have to be our first priorities.
This just seems self-evident to me. Can anyone explain where the critics of Mr. Tchividjian are going wrong theologically?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Bingo. In his sermon after Langworthy’s confession, Belser used a swimming in the “deep end” analogy saying that now Langworthy was “pushing to the top.” I kid you not. Keep in mind the “younger males” Langworthy referred to in his confession were boys ages 6-13 years old.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Ah, yes, the “every guy’s fantasy” canard. Guess what? It’s just as many girls’fantasies. Doesn’t make the reality any less abusive.
Eagle wrote:
*
How very true is that – sadly.
*
JeffT wrote:
This type of Christian thinking is not unique to predators; it applies to other situations as well. For example, the church may celebrate the repentance of unwed mothers who have a child by choice outside of marriage because they voluntarily “slept around.” But the church then berates single men with “man up” rants and “shaming” for not wanting to marry the repentant unwed mothers. In other words there is something wrong with the single men because they, unlike the church, have refused to forgive.
Janey wrote:
……………………………….
Completely agree. This type of behavior is not a slip up, or because of conflicts in one ‘s life. It would not surprise me to read of her abusing again…..she needs to be monitored.
The OP asked,
It could be a warped theology.
Sometimes Christians place more emphasis on one aspect of the Bible than they do another (in this case, it would be emphasizing restoring and showing mercy and forgiveness to sinners, than in seeing justice is done or comforting the victim).
This is tied in with one of several reasons I’m struggling with Christianity, the tendency of some Christians to side with perpetrators rather than their victims, and criticizing people who are wounded, for whatever reason.
I’ve seen the same phenomenon on blogs about abused, Christian wives: they go to their churches for help, but the churches side with the abusive husband, so they tell the wife to just put up with the abuse some more.
Churches and Christians like that are more concerned with the abuser’s well being than the abused wife’s health, sanity, and well being.
I think the root of some of this in some cases is that people don’t like to admit bad stuff can happen at random to them.
If something bad happens to you, other people want to believe you are partially responsible for bringing it on yourself, that you were somehow deserving of it, so they can deny that it may happen to them, too.
Christians not only do this, but Non Christians do it at times as well.
I was harassed on a full time job by one of my bosses. People I was friends with for a few years there dumped me like a hot potato once the boss abuse began, because they were afraid the mean boss would start in on them next. That’s another reason people behave like this.
After I was the recipient of work place bullying, I did a lot of reading on the topic, and it’s common.
Even though you are the victim, the workplace, Human Resources department, will blame you and defend the bullying boss (one reason they do so is to try and avoid lawsuits by you, the victim).
Co-workers will abandon you in these cases, because they are afraid of becoming the next target.
As far as blaming the victim, twelve step programs such as AA are similar.
One of my family members began going to AA many years ago, and 12 step programs have a twisted sense of personal responsibility, where they do not recognize that not all bad things happen to a person due to that person’s choices.
So, if I try to talk to this family member who was in AA forever, about someone else being mean to me, he will pin the blame on me.
He will ask me, “What role did you play in that?”
(Because that’s the question they give you at AA meetings, if you talk about being mistreated by someone else.
It’s quite victim-blaming.
It assumes you must have made a poor or stupid choice and deserved to have the bad thing happen.)
Well, none – I was the victim in the situation I told him about.
But 12 step programs believe that any bad thing that happens to you that you must have brought on yourself. They can’t accept that bad things happen randomly to good people.
I think that may be another reason why Christians show favor to bullies and abusers than they do victims.
Some of the Neo Calvinist churches are like this; they say we are all sinners, so they end up equating you having a bad day and rudely snapping at someone in a huff, to some 28 year old woman who sexually fondled a 14 year old boy. It’s all the same to them.
@ Janey:
I agree, there’s a lot of naivety among Christians. I think it goes a long with a lot of Christians being codependent, too.
I read a book by Christian authors about codependency and they summarized a study they read about typical personality types of regular church goers, and the study found (IIRC the figure exactly) 80% of these people have passive personalities, where as a smaller percentage of the American population overall is passive.
I don’t know if a skewed understanding of Christianity causes people to be naive and passive, or it tends to attract those who are already naive/ passive.
I put a link in a previous thread about a retired police officer who is a Christian.
He holds seminars for churches about violence at churches. He said more shootings happen at churches than at schools.
He told of a 15 year old Christian girl who invited a 53/54 year old guy to her church, and the guy ran her over and killed her (on purpose) in the church parking lot once they got there.
He said a lot of church people are naive or superstitious about this stuff, about violence happening at churches.
They have a tendency to think that God specially protects a building just because it has a steeple on top of it. He said that is wrong.
Someone else here put in a link months before by a woman who studies violent criminals, and she interviewed many of these guys.
They say churches are among their favorite places to seek people to prey on because church people are usually very trusting and naive, they are easier to hoodwink and take advantage of.
@ Daisy:
I think the correct spelling is “naiveté,” but I mangled it in my last post. 🙂
Being from the teaching world, I just do not understand the ” bed your students” world. You see it more among coaches with younger girls in the past. Sadly, many of the coaches were the biggest supporters of the local church, especially in small towns. Joining the First Baptist Church was like joining the country club.
There was even a joke among the coaches that if you coach girl’s sports, you get to “cut the team” ( Dee you may need to censor the last line.)
In the past, coaches were fired with a good recommendation. I know a coach fired in East Texas who was fired for questionable actions towards students who wound up in the Texas Panhandle coaching, only to be arrested by a Game Warden who caught coach with a young teen girl in the act parked by a reservoir.
The female with student is fairly new. I can’t remember this going on when I first started teaching in the 70s. ( I’m sure it happened, I just didn’t know about it, and generally boys brag about things like this.)
Sadly, because these teachers are members of the churches, they are given benefit of the doubt. And just talking a good game, and teachers are pretty good wordsmiths, these churches are easy to forgive…..and who is lost in this situation? The victim.
Tree wrote:
That is good but seems so rare.
In most stories I read by Christians on blogs and forums, churches do not support people who have been abused or hurt, or women who are in abusive marriages who are seeking to leave the spouse.
Most churches I’ve read about (and in books I’ve read about abuse) encourage women to actually stay with the spouses, support the spouse, pray for him, etc.
A lot of Christians prescribe supposed solutions to hurting or endangered people I seriously doubt they would try if it were they in the same situation, or their loved one.
Some Christians love to dole out spiritual-sounding advice (advice that is ultimately harmful or detrimental to the person they are giving it to), but I doubt they’d take the same advice if they were the one in that situation. That’s another thing that drives me bonkers about Christians.
burntnorton wrote:
Everything in your post was very good, that part stood out to me.
I also think the same is true in abusive workplaces, as I wrote above, where jobs/ co workers side with the bullying employer/worker and abandon the victim.
You’re right that same anger is good.
As I read in a book by Christian authors about codependency, feeling anger is a warning sign to you (build in by God) that your boundaries have been violated, someone was trying or saying something to hurt you in some way.
Many Christians, though, are very uncomfortable with anger, with seeing it, expressing it. Some believe it’s ungodly or sinful to have it or feel it or show it.
Women especially are socialized from a young age (Christian and Non Christian females) to hide anger. We’re taught that only men are allowed to have or show anger.
Christian women get clobbered with that idea ten times more than Non Christian ladies. In the Christianity I grew up in, women were supposed to be constantly sweet and smiling, compliant, focus on other people’s needs – don’t show anger, even if someone is mistreating you.
@ Daisy:
Where I said,
“You’re right that same anger is good.”
I meant “some anger” not “same”
@ Janey: Many xtians are naive and very misinformed about mental health issues, period. I’m sure this person will find other victims, and likely has already done so.
@ burntnorton: very, very true.
I saw it happen all too regularly at the HS I attended. Some men were after both girls and boys; not sure about the women, but that’s more than possible, given the climate at that school. [shivers]
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
A lot of Christians do this for a plethora of situations in life.
Take mental illness. If you accept Jesus as Lord/Savior, poof, your anxiety attacks or clinical depression are supposed to just vanish on the spot.
Some Christians (I have encountered them myself) believe that No True Christian can have a mental health problem, and if you say you do, you are Not Really Saved.
@ Joe:
The never-married ladies over 30 who abstain don’t get parties by churches, or gifts, or anything. So it’s not just the unmarried, childless men who get this sort of thing, believe me.
SarahS wrote:
I still can’t believe Wilson got away with that. The whole Neo-Calvinist cartel is culpable for letting him sweep that episode under the rug with one of his glib, pseudo-Chestertonian cracks (“I cover up sin for a living”).
A small correction re the Covenant Life Church accident: It was two girls and one boy. The boy, who was uninjured, is the brother of the girl who was killed. Apparently, the drivers of the two cars were drag racing.
Sounds like the pedophile lady would make a good writer for “seventeen magazine” or “YM magazine”. That’s what it sounds like to me when she’s speaking.
Human sexuality has a strange way of warping the mind of those listening to the speaker. Perhaps there is a reason why stuff like that is mentioned in Proverbs 6. In the portion it is addressed to the young man to beware of that strange woman.
Now when I think about speaking to some Anabaptist friends and women, I get the same sounds of repentance, but they “think” to cover their heads and body to prevent further trouble.
****The reasons that unwed-mothers are praised and allowed to find new men to parade with in the church is because_______. The reason spiritual abuse flourishes rapidly in some churches is because_________.
@ Joe:
Oh, I’m sure her statement was vetted and possibly authored by her attorney. But her demeanor, her decision to participate in the video, and whatever show she put on for the past year was hers and is part of the (perhaps unconscious) manipulation.
@ Daisy:
I absolutely agree. People in general don’t like dealing with unpleasant things. Anger, pain, disability . . . It makes us all uncomfortable. But it’s wrong to give in to the temptation to respond by sweeping it under the rug.
In discussions with fellow followers of the Prince of Peace and Lord of Glory and these were very serious Christians who showed gifts of the Spirit, they knew doctrine backwards and forwards, they could quote the bible and they could debate. They understood apologetics and could respond quick to questions. They also had the ability to write people off with no thought whatsoever. They were rational, logical, and had pretty much every single aspect of life figured out down to a tee. They taught at the local Church, actively practiced Church discipline in a doctrinal way I E booting people or getting people booted that deviated from any doctrinal issue. They could and would be ruthless if needed.
Well anyway they often told me that abuse was far less evil than say apostasy (which meant that someone deviated even .000000000000000001% from doctrinal purity. I never saw them cry, yet they would show emotion, usually anger if there was a disagreement or what they perceived as pride or not being teachable. The one time they really would get all worked up about abuse was during the Catholic church scandals because it was a functional apologetic and arguing point to prove the Catholic Church was apostate and not of God.
seekinghope wrote:
Party Ideologists and Party Intellectuals, Comrade.
The personnel pool for Political Officers and KGB enforcers.
Daisy wrote:
Yet another coat of paint for “ME SHEEP! YOU GOAT! HAW! HAW! HAW!”
@ JeffB:
Thanks for the clarification. Continuing to pray. So sad. 🙁
Daisy wrote:
And thus send the message “BE A BULLY. BE AN ABUSER. BE A WINNER, NOT A LOSER.”
burntnorton wrote:
Notice I likened it to those paragons of intellect, Beavis & Butthead.
“HE SCORED! HEH-HUH! HEH-HUH! HEH-HUH!”
“Party Ideologists and Party Intellectuals, Comrade.
The personnel pool for Political Officers and KGB enforcers.”
Dont consign “apostates” to an eternal conscious lake of fire in a glorified eternal body. Yup that one makes a whole bunch of sense. Not.
Off-topic, sorry, but I thought some would be interested. Big front page story today at the Charlotte Observer on Elevation Church. At first glance, I thought it was a positive story, but it’s actually a critique of their lack of transparency and accountability in finances. http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/01/25/4640218/a-different-kind-of-church.html#.UuUQyLQo601
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
And this is not a new phenomenon.
As adults, working with older children, teens & young adults we have a duty of care to ensure that the shenannigans they may pull with sexual development & immaturity are part of our training & practice. As soon as it is made clear a young person has a crush on a worker, or is acting unwisely or inappropriately, that is when you give the heads up to your colleagues & Manager, & together you manage the situation appropriately. Testing out sexuality is an expected part of adolescent behaviour, as is attempting to cross boundaries, & risk taking.
It can be easy to say that these young people know ‘exactly’ what they’re doing, & it can certainly look that way, but at the same time it’s more likely to be a good facsimile of adult behaviour & comprehension & we need to shield them (& ourselves & others) from their stupidity & immaturity by being prepared. Alongside that it is time to explain to them why it’s not appropriate & spell out the consequences of continuing to act inappropriately. If you have a pre-existing system in place, because you know damn well these situations will arise, it gets flagged up at the earliest possible opportunity & is then monitored. It’s not rocket science.
I have a new team at work. At our first meeting we talked through our child safeguarding policies…including the fact that we have some attractive young male volunteers who older girls may make a beeline for, so to keep an eye, for their welfare. I also told them the procedures to follow if they have any suspicions about each other’s, or anyone in our organisation, or in contact with our young people’s, behaviour. They have the procedure for what to do if my behaviour causes them suspicion or problems. They know how to go straight over my head & to an independent body.
Sometimes I think the educational/religious world is staffed by amateurs.
So why don’t church folks stand up and scream bloody murder about this sort of thing? Some really good ideas have been mentioned. Let me add an observation or two:
(1) There is more of this going on than we know about. Some of the silent folks have good reason to want this behavior to be excusable with/without repentance. They might be the next one to be found out.
(2) Sexual behavior with teens, while illegal, is not technically pedophilia, and there are people who would never think to molest a four year old but who nevertheless see no reason for the current laws or the current objection to lowering the legal age of consent for adolescents. They themselves may not be doing anything illegal, but they think that some of this stuff is actually OK.
(3) It is a false assumption to assume that something miraculous has happened and somehow there are no longer any tares in the field. We ought not say that all these people who abuse the concept of forgiveness are necessarily actually Christians, or even for that matter consider themselves to be.
(4) There are dark recesses in the human heart, and it would be comforting to think that if something as awful as child abuse can be “forgiven” then surely whatever may lurk in some dark recess in “my” heart is less than that, so everything will probably be OK.
(5) There are mothers who could not survive and raise their children if their husband went to prison, or if they divorced, and they think that whatever it is that is going on at home is less than the awfulness of the alternative of divorce or prison. I have read that some women willingly “sacrifice” one child for the welfare of the rest of the family.
(6) There are people with such huge problems in their own lives that they feel that they have no ability to take on one more issue. As in–somebody else is going to have to deal with this; I have too much on me already.
(7) How can I say this? From personal observation by my own steely eyed and cynical self, it appears to me that there are a significant number of persons in “the church” who cannot or do not function very well in other settings, and thinking that something may be amiss at church may just be more than they could cope with, even on their best day.
(8) And, of course, “forgiveness” may be based more on who the offender is than on what they did. And sadly, it may be based on who the victim is more than on what the crime was.
(9) And if you are the preacher, you cannot stand up in the pulpit and say such things a I have said.
What causes pedophilia? It probably should be part of the discussion, repulsive as it is. I feel the same way about homosexuality, its roots are important. Many have popular ideas about these psychosexual behaviors, but what about the scientific research? I know there are powerful medications to treat pedophilia, but I think study of this behavior should be important.
@ Marge Sweigart:
Thanks for alerting us Marge! It's incredible that so many "Elevators" give, give, give without any concern about their church's financial transparency. I wonder what the median age of church members at Elevation is…
Hanni, no one knows what causes pedophilia. There have been no genetic or hormonal correlates discovered and none of the psychosocial theories seem to apply to all pedophiles. For example, one theory is that pedophiles were molested as children. Sometimes that is true but mostly it isn’t and most children who are molested do not become pedophiles themselves. In short, we just don’t know at this point.
http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/resources/article/12-step-theology/
Putting the words that Christ spoke, overcome bondage to sin.
I wonder what the high school, the police, the dance school, and the church have done to find any other victims of this perpetrator? Have they all asked for victims to come forward anonymously, promising help and counseling? And did this woman volunteer at the church or otherwise have contact with youth there? This investigation should be a high priority for all, especially for the church and pastor.
She’ll do it again. She’s a total and complete narcissist, self-involved, no repentance, no compassion for her victim – none. It’s all about her spiritual renewal, and hoping that, from what I took away from her video, that the victim will use his experience of abuse as a way to grow closer to God. The minister has no compassion for the victim. She is a predator.
As a survivor of abuse, it makes me truly angry when people try to gloss over the impact of pedophilia on a child. I think its even more difficult for a male to deal with trying to overcome. What happened will haunt him, his entire life, no matter how hard he tries to over-come the abuse. What is even worse, when someone is this age, it is rather obvious the woman groomed him, and then took advantage of him, trashing his feelings for her. That alone is also going to cripple him.
But, it’s all about the pedophile. She’s standing up strong, renewing her faith, reaching out to her church, and they are all there for her. I hope they lock up their kids when she’s around them.
She will abuse again. It is all about her. I wouldn’t be surprised to discover she’s also a psychopath. That’s what they are.
Pingback: Remember Alicia Gray? : The Other McCain
Besides the fact that this woman seems to have no idea of the damage she has done to her victim, I wonder if she even realizes the damage she has done to herself? She will be a lifelong registered sex offender and never be able to work in a setting with minors. Her jail time will probably bring reality crashing in on her…at least I hope it does, or she will end up re-offending as soon as she is out of prison. She has no emotional boundaries.
Yeup-L wrote:
Setting Captives Free…take a close look before you go there looking for freedom, IMO.
http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/suggested-reading-material/
Martha Peace and Gary Ricucci…
What I didn’t know about is this document:
http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/support-pastor-mahaney/
“I, Mike Cleveland, am the founder and President of Set
ting Captives Free
Ministries. I am not involved in Sovereign Grace Mini
stries in any way, nor
do I attend a SGM church, nor have I ever spoken with
C.J. Mahaney or
any of his board. I have read all the documents written
by Brent Detwiler.”
Whereupon Mr. Cleveland takes Mr. Detwiler to task for his many sins in confronting Mr. Mahaney. An interesting read, to say the least. One of Mr. Cleveland’s points to Detwiler:
“If CJ were guilty of literal crimes – wouldn’t love pr
ompt us to “Tell it not in Gath”? Why
all the public vomiting? Whatever your motives are, your actions are wicked and end up
dragging the name both of CJ, and his Christ before the world in an abominable way.
Your “public exposure” is trash. And ought to be treated as such. In our estimation, the
product of a disturbed mind. Why dwell on all of this
for so long in such minute detail?
Something is horribly askew”
I can’t comment on the particular case Boz cites as I don’t know the people involved; to be precise, whether Ms Gray has repented or not, I can’t tell.
I read through the comments on Boz’s post and one of the commenters stated that she could see repentance in the video. I beg to differ: you can’t actually see repentance. It’s a bit like looking at a photo of somewhere sunny and saying you could really get a suntan there – I can see the UV. No, you can’t. You can feel its effects, but even that takes a certain amount time (and you certainly can’t get sunburnt by a photograph).
An underlying factor is that we humans tend to put a lot of trust in our feelings. If something gives us good, fuzzy feelings then our first assumption is that the something must be good. Good things create good feelings, right? So if your dominant experience has been one of hearing stories about lives transformed by Jesus, you’ll get good feelings when you see a criminal apologising, especially if (s)he cries while doing it. What a beautiful picture of life-transforming repentance and grace through Jesus Christ!
But the reverse is true too, of course. If your dominant experience is one of witnessing the deceitfulness of abusers, you’ll get bad feelings when you see a criminal apologising, especially if (s)he cries while doing it. What a despicable, shrewd, manipulative liar!
Because it’s a human reaction, it’s common in church. Bother ensues when we don’t do what Jesus told us to do, which is to test for fruit. (In a different context, I never get all that excited when I hear about dozens of people “getting saved” at an evangelistic event. In my experience, they’ve mostly just got caught up in the moment. We’ll have a better idea of whether they’re saved in a few months’ time.)
Can a sex offender ever change? Put it this way – is a sex offender beyond the reach of Jesus? Absolutely not. Is an ordinary person trying their best to live a good life beyond the reach of Jesus? Absolutely not. In a certain theological sense, there may be little or no difference. You don’t have to be a sex-offender to pretend to follow Jesus. But in a practical sense, someone who has made a habit of preying on other people must display a certain kind of fruit if they have really repented.
I wonder if this pastor and church would have supported the teacher if it was a 28 year old man and a 14 year old girl? I seriously doubt it.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
An excellent post imo getting the balance between gullibility in believing a claim to repentence, and unbelief that the gospel does actually have power to change.
As you rightly say, fruit is what counts, and this takes time to grow. Avoiding short-termism should prevent either extreme. A truly converted person cannot but change.
SJReidhead wrote:
Anyone want to guess his opinion of women in the future?
I say somewhere lower than the Taliban. From sex objects/breeding stock to VERMIN.
“Scripture, Scripture, Scripture, Scripture, Scripture…”
(Plus a really JUICY Testimony!)
SJReidhead wrote:
Why so may I ask? On what are you basing this statement?
Victorious wrote:
Probably because many people will think that he was a lucky lad to get his end away with an older woman, & any feelings of violation he has will be utterly invalidated. Seriously, many will expect him to feel grateful for this experience, & he may even feel that himself for a while.
Beakerj wrote:
AKA “YOU SCORED! HEH-HUH! HEH-HUH! HEH-HUH!” — Beavis & Butthead
In other news, I’ve just pureed the Onion From Gehenna. Glad that’s over.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
That anything like the Giant Cinnamon Roll from Hell?
Beakerj wrote:
And the fact that Alica Gray was married at the time, may even serve to give his ego a temporary boost because the “lucky lad” was a “better man” than her husband; he could “satisfy” her where her husband has failed.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Not unless hell-spawned cinnamon rolls make your eyes water…
@ Joe: Sorry, but this comment of yours is *very* creepy.
I do NOT want to think about what they actually did, let alone the implications that you spelled out.
She molested him. Full stop.
One item to add is that it would have been one thing if this woman did this before coming to Christ and then wouldn’t have been part of this church. The pastor is indicating that this woman was part of this church and presumably claimed to be a believer when she molested this boy.
Wasn’t this woman supposedly already a “new creation” in Christ when she did this act? Thus harder to believe her claims about being a new person. Maybe the pastor should ask what went wrong at his church that allowed this to happen with a member.
I remember reading one place that the sentences given to female teachers that molest their children is inversely related to how attractive the female teacher is. This statement seemed to be backed up with facts. It appears this teacher didn’t get that harsh of a sentence.
Steve, I have noticed that too. I think this is a subconscious process where the jury and judge think that a beautiful perpetrator must have mental issues. They reason that she has many opportunities to have sex with adult men and so her choice of a minor means that she is mentally ill. They feel sorry for her in a way they don’t for men or unattractive women.
SJReidhead, so sorry you had to go through this. We have a 4 year old grandson, whom I think may have been at least groomed, very possibly molested, by a woman who is in the perfect position to get away with it. From the research I’ve done on pedophilia, so very many red flags are there. Since I and another family member have been taking pro-active steps in the last year or so, including teaching the child about sexual predation and letting the person know subtly, that we are being astute, the symptoms in the grandson suddenly and drastically declined. I also attribute this to much prayer from several believers. I am still concerned because this person will probably remain in our grandson’s life, at least sporadically. As he gets older, if he was molested, he may realize more. Do you have suggestions for our family? The parents involved may have now realized some things, they will soon be removing their son from a five day per week exposure to this person, but that may also not be behind their reasoning. If I look at it from the perspective of experts I have read on the subject, I would have to say that the parents could definitely have been groomed first, which I understand is often the case, especially with young children. Also, that most female pedophiles tend to focus on children under the age of six. Would appreciate your input. God bless you!
The cure for Bathsheba of this world…..still-born, miscarriage, infant loss before 1 week old.
Reality is that 1+ 1=2. Math works here on earth. Church can be come a mere crutch to a nature that won’t give up. Church plays and toys with the “Sin” like its candy especially if the pastor is payed big bucks to bury the dead.
Arguably some of the harshest words Jesus ever spoke were against those who cause “little ones” to stumble. Whatever precisely He meant by that, surely I have to think those who sexually abuse children would fall within that category.
Heather wrote:
This “refutation” of BD is an example of classic projection. I have to think that Mr. Cleveland is the one perpetuating “trash” and possessing a “disturbed mind”. I have to think that only very sick individual would write such a response to Detwiler.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
My heart has been heavy reading this post and comments. Such intense content. And then I read this, and now I’m laughing so hard it’s coming out in snorts. Oh, the cartoon-a-vision in my brain right now is hilarious.
Coming in late, and not sure where to add this, but this is how you front up as an organisation and do an apology: (I have no affiliation)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-10/salvation-army-reputation-27no-longer-a-priorty27/5249332
Some pertinent bits cut and pasted below –
“Commissioner Condon says the organisation no longer considers its reputation a priority when dealing with victims of child sexual abuse.
He says the Salvation Army is trialling a policy, known as People First, to respond to victims of abuse.
“The priority is the survivor, not protection of the Salvation Army,” he told a hearing on Monday.
As part of what Commissioner Condon calls a “restorative justice approach”, survivors are “believed and respected” and asked to prepare a victim impact statement.”
There was this small kicker at the end though:
“He has conceded that the organisation is yet to formally discuss the decades of abuse at the hands of its officers.”
See also:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/11/world-leader-unprepared-full-horror-child-sex-abuse-revelations