Breaking: Two More Examples of Possible Driscoll Intellectual Property Acquisition

Here is a link to Janet Mefferd's blog. She posts examples side by side. One is: 

 the Driscolls’ book, “Real Marriage,” pages 129-131 (paperback edition), and Dan Allender’s book, “The Wounded Heart”

The other is: 

The following is an excerpt from Mark Driscoll’s 2013 book, “Who Do You Think You Are?” (Published by Thomas Nelson; 2013)

In Chapter 12, entitled “I Am Forgiven,” on pages 163-166, Pastor Driscoll writes two sections on forgiveness, with the subheads: “Seven Things Forgiveness Is” and “Seven Things Forgiveness is Not.”

Roughly two years before, on May 20 and May 21, 2011, church planter and pastor Ron Edmonson wrote two blog articles, which he posted at www.ronedmonson.com, with the exact same titles and remarkably similar content to Pastor Driscoll’s book:

“7 Things Forgiveness is Not …”
http://www.ronedmondson.com/2011/05/7-things-forgiveness-is-not.html

“7 Things Forgiveness Is … “
http://www.ronedmondson.com/2011/05/7-things-forgiveness-is-part-2.html

Please go to the site for links and comparisons along with descriptions for what constitutes plagiarism. We leave it up to our readers to decide.

We are posting on another topic later today.

Comments

Breaking: Two More Examples of Possible Driscoll Intellectual Property Acquisition — 116 Comments

  1. Hard work and intelligence can lead to prolific publication, etc. But even those have their limits.

    My favorite example of that is physicist Jan Hendrik Schön. Read more about him here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Hendrik_Sch%C3%B6n

    ..and Google. There’s plenty about this scandal out there.

    As the Wiki article says:

    “In 2001 he was listed as an author on an average of one newly published research paper every eight days.”

    That, in itself, should have raised alarm bells. For a paper to be published it takes:

    -the actual research (takes more than 8 days)
    -writing it
    -editing it
    -passing it along to co-authors for their contribution
    -further editing
    -peer review
    -revision following peer review
    -final review by the journal
    -various bits journal editing rigamarole

    Same deal with Driscoll and a lot of other prominent evangelical authors. These guys (mostly guys, but a few gals as well) preach weekly, go on speaking tours, write blog posts, and publish a book or two a year.

    That amount of output is impossible by anyone unless they are cutting corners. It’s hard to cut corners on appearing in public (preaching, conferences). But it is easy to cut corners on content of sermons, talks, blog posts, or books.

    Or hire ghost writers for all of those. And that’s cutting corners as well and is only slightly less dishonest than out-and-out plagiarism.

    Moral of the story: if someone seems very extremely prolific, start looking more closely at the product.

    Caveat: There are plenty of Christian authors, professors, pastors, speakers who seem much more reasonable in their output. Most of them are less well-known. But they often have more robust things to say (even if I don’t agree with them). E.g. John Stackhouse (who I often agree with) or Wayne Grudem (who I often don’t).

    Postscript: For someone who is presumably all about family, if Driscoll were doing all that he claims to be doing (that’s less and less likely all the time, as it turns out), then how on earth did he have time for his family? With a bunch of young kids, this should be the time of his life where most of his efforts are in the home. At least, that has been my experience, having kids about the same age as his.

  2. My often comment: If you find a pastor has committed one abuse, keep looking, because there are more. The abusing pastor always believes he is either above the law or morality or he will not be found out, or he will be quickly and readily forgiven and retain his position without adverse consequences.

  3. E.G. wrote:

    if Driscoll were doing all that he claims to be doing (that’s less and less likely all the time, as it turns out), then how on earth did he have time for his family?

    No matter what-it will be Grace’s fault.:)

  4. An Attorney wrote:

    he abusing pastor always believes he is either above the law or morality or he will not be found out, or he will be quickly and readily forgiven and retain his position without adverse consequences.

    You sound like Bill! And you are right! I believe that there will be a lot more of this in the days and weeks to come.

  5. Driscoll preached the same stuff in a sermon from Luke 11 in September of 2010 so maybe Ron Edmonson plagiarized Mark … I realize that doesn’t make as good of a story nor will it help Janet gain more listeners, but lets get the pitch forks and torches and head over to Ron’s blog!!!

  6. @ An Attorney: Very much agreed; it’s the same with politicians, attorneys, and so many others.

    The thing about all these books: there’s NO way that anyone with MD’s schedule would ever have the time to sit down and write all of that by himself. People who are prolific writers and spend most of their waking hours writing can’t produce *that* much.

    The whole thing seemed rotten (as in “something is rotten in Denmark”) from the get-go. I wouldn’t be surprised if many of MD’s cronies use the same kinds of “working” methods.

  7. Kudos to Janet Mefferd for tackling this. She should be applauded by the Calvinista gurus, not condemned. Shame on them.

  8. Jon wrote:

    Driscoll preached the same stuff in a sermon from Luke 11 in September of 2010 so maybe Ron Edmonson plagiarized Mark

    Interesting. Frankly, who really knows. There is no robust method of keeping pastors honest these days. And there are plenty of “sermon resource” sites out there, along with blogs, books, you name it. The amount of original material in many pastor’s sermons is likely pretty low. And that, no doubt, spills over into blog posts and books, etc.

    Maybe we should all just accept it as “derivative art.” Or something.

    I have a Johnny Cash and Willie Nelson live album in which one of them says something to the effect of “let’s all get together and steal each others songs.” Maybe sermon writing and song writing are in the same boat.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VH1_Storytellers:_Johnny_Cash_&_Willie_Nelson

  9. numo wrote:

    I wouldn’t be surprised if many of MD’s cronies use the same kinds of “working” methods.

    If by “cronies” you mean much of the evangelical publishing world (specifically books for lay consumption), then I wouldn’t be surprised.

  10. E.G. wrote:

    Interesting. Frankly, who really knows.

    I guess that’s my problem with this next accusation … Janet Mefford is claiming that she, in fact, does know that Driscoll is guilty.

  11. Jon wrote:

    Janet Mefford is claiming that she, in fact, does know that Driscoll is guilty.

    If you saw a man murder another man, would you claim you knew that he killed him? Mefferd has defined plagiarism from good sources then presents her evidence of word for word copying. Why shouldn’t she say she knows he plagiarized?

  12. (off topic) (Rick Warren’s new diet book)

    It looks to me on the internet that most people either hate Rick Warren or love the guy.

    I don’t agree with all of Warren’s theology or approaches, but I don’t hate him.

    I don’t have a good feeling about Warren hyping a diet book. He’s a preacher, not a professional trainer or Dietitian(so far as a I know).

    Pastor Rick Warren releases new faith-based diet book

    How “faith based” can a diet book be?

    Pray before eating each 600 calorie laden meal then doing Aerobics for 45 minutes and maybe some weight lifting, too, if you’re over 40?

    Why do I need to buy a book for that?

    It’s common sense stuff, stuff I learned in health courses in high school/college, and you can get lots of diet info for free online.

  13. @ dee:
    But his “forgiveness” stuff was written before Ron’s blog was written. So you’re murder case kinda falls apart at that point and your victim has just become the suspect.

    Did Ron plagiarize Mark?

    If the evidence that Mefferd puts forward is enough to convict Mark then the opposite must now be true. Will she begin a campaign against Ron?

  14. Jon wrote:

    Janet Mefford is claiming that she, in fact, does know that Driscoll is guilty.

    Mefferd published side by side screen shots showing where some of Driscoll’s content from two or three different books were copied word for word, without citation, from other books.

    Exactly what kind of evidence, I wonder, would satisfy you that the guy is in fact guilty of plagiarize?

  15. Jon wrote:

    Driscoll preached the same stuff in a sermon from Luke 11 in September of 2010 so maybe Ron Edmonson plagiarized Mark …

    Jon may be correct about Driscoll’s material not coming from Edmonson. I found the sermon I think Jon is referring to here:
    http://marshill.com/media/luke/the-lords-prayer
    Driscoll preached it on September 26, 2010. The earliest list I could find from Edmonson was on a blog post dated May 20, 2011:
    http://www.ronedmondson.com/2011/05/7-things-forgiveness-is-not.html

    I took some notes on Driscoll’s sermon and came up with these 10 points:
    forgiveness is not approving or diminishing sin.
    forgiveness is not enabling sin
    forgiveness is not denying the wrong doing
    forgiveness is not waiting for an apilogy
    forgiveness is not forgetting
    forgiveness is not ceasing to feel the pain
    forgiveness is not a one time event
    forgiveness is not neglecting justice
    forgiveness is not trusting
    forgiveness is not reconciliation

    While conducting my search however I came across some material that may perhaps indicate both Driscoll and Edmonson didn’t give credit where credit is due.

    In Ray Pritchard’s “The Healing Power of Forgiveness,” published in 2005 Pritchard writes:

    Sometimes when we say we can’t or won’t forgive, we are actually talking about something other than biblical forgiveness. Let me list a few things forgiveness does not mean:

    1. It does not mean approving of what someone else did.
    2. It does not mean pretending that evil never took place.
    3. It does not mean making an excuse for other people’s bad behavior.
    4. It does not mean justifying evil so that sin somehow becomes less sinful.
    5. It does not mean overlooking abuse.
    6. It does not mean denying that others tried to hurt you repeatedly.
    7. It does not mean letting others walk all over you.
    8. It does not mean refusing to press charges when a crime has been committed.
    9. It does not mean forgetting the wrong that was done.
    10. It does not mean pretending you were never hurt.
    11. It does not mean you must restore the relationship to what it was before.
    12. It does not mean you must become friends again.
    13. It does not mean there must be a total reconciliation as if nothing ever happened.
    14. It does not mean that you must tell the person you have forgiven them.
    15. It does not mean that all the negative consequences of sin are canceled.

    http://secondmilechurch.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/15-things-forgiveness-doesnt-mean/

    I would think it would behoove Mark Driscoll to come clean. He has way to many people checking into his work now.

  16. @ Daisy:
    Did Driscoll plagiarize other works? It sure looks that way. But what I’m saying is that her latest accusation casts more doubt on Edmondson — Driscoll’s forgiveness stuff came from a sermon on Luke preached in 2010 (before Edmondson’s blog). So again, this evidence shows that Edmondson plagiarized Driscoll.

  17. Jon wrote:

    @ Daisy:
    Did Driscoll plagiarize other works? It sure looks that way. But what I’m saying is that her latest accusation casts more doubt on Edmondson — Driscoll’s forgiveness stuff came from a sermon on Luke preached in 2010 (before Edmondson’s blog). So again, this evidence shows that Edmondson plagiarized Driscoll.

    So, in this recent example, what if Edmonson plagiarized Driscoll and Driscoll plagiarized Edmondson’s plagiarism of Driscoll, would Driscoll then be plagiarizing?

    The plagiarism version of ‘how much wood could a woodchuck chuck’ 🙂

  18. Jon wrote:

    E.G. wrote:
    I guess that’s my problem with this next accusation … Janet Mefford is claiming that she, in fact, does know that Driscoll is guilty.

    Duh.
    Enough already!
    His name is on the book, and the copyright.

  19. Jon wrote:

    If the evidence that Mefferd puts forward is enough to convict Mark then the opposite must now be true. Will she begin a campaign against Ron?

    If you have read this blog, you will know that we believe in the truth. No matter how it turns out.

  20. Jon wrote:

    So again, this evidence shows that Edmondson plagiarized Driscoll.

    Have you contacted Janet Mefferd with your evidence? I would suggest that you do so. I would have.

  21. Daisy wrote:

    (off topic) (Rick Warren’s new diet book)
    I don’t have a good feeling about Warren hyping a diet book. He’s a preacher, not a professional trainer or Dietitian(so far as a I know).
    The Daniel Plan: 40 Days to a Healthier Life
    By: Rick Warren, Daniel Amen, M.D. & Mark Hyman, M.D.
    Product Description from cbd.com–
    “The Daniel Plan teaches simple ways to incorporate healthy choices into a reader’s current lifestyle and helps them understand the kind of foods God created to keep them fit and strong. The book is categorized around five key concepts for optimal health that promote success: faith, food, fitness, focus, and friends. These concepts encourage readers to deepen their relationship with God and offer inspiration as they make positive choices each and every day.”

  22. Jon wrote:

    Did Ron plagiarize Mark?

    Tell you what I will do. Prove that Edmondson plagiarized Driscoll instead of vice versa and I will post your evidence.

  23. Daisy wrote:

    Mefferd published side by side screen shots showing where some of Driscoll’s content from two or three different books were copied word for word, without citation, from other books.
    Exactly what kind of evidence, I wonder, would satisfy you that the guy is in fact guilty of plagiarize?

    None, of course.
    Mefferd uttered Blasphemy against his God, and a God Can Do No Wrong.

  24. E.G. wrote:

    numo wrote:
    I wouldn’t be surprised if many of MD’s cronies use the same kinds of “working” methods.
    If by “cronies” you mean much of the evangelical publishing world (specifically books for lay consumption), then I wouldn’t be surprised.

    And once more, in the words of Tom Lehrer:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXlfXirQF3A

  25. Mary DeMuth (@MaryDeMuth) wrote:

    At least from my corner of the publishing world, I can attest that my words are my own.

    I’m sure that’s the case. But you aren’t giving a sermon a week, speaking at seven conferences a year, and trying to maintain an “edgy” public persona all while pumping out books galore.

  26. @ dee:
    The proof is in the timeline … sermon comes before blog entry. Seems pretty clear that Ron Edmondson plagiarized Driscoll’s sermon. I wouldn’t have thought so until Janet provided such convincing evidence. Read the sermon from September 2010.

  27. Did anyone notice in Grace Driscoll’s bio on the Mars Hill Website (as featured in the Mefford link on top of this page), she states that “… the key to marriage is submission…”.

    Does that strike anyone else as brainwashed?

  28. Mefford’s reporting of the Edmondson stuff it shows that:

    1. At best it was lazy reporting (the sermon was simple to find)

    2. At worst it was a blatant lie used to add more weight to her argument (like the hang up the phone story).

    I’m not a big Driscoll fan but I am a fan of the truth and this latest report doesn’t hold water.

  29. @ Jon: I have passed on the info to the Mefferd show since I will not have time to look into this for a couple of days. I would suggest that you do the same.

  30. E.G. wrote:

    But you aren’t giving a sermon a week, speaking at seven conferences a year, and trying to maintain an “edgy” public persona all while pumping out books galore.

    And that makes a successful pastor!

  31. Jon wrote:

    Seems pretty clear that Ron Edmondson plagiarized Driscoll’s sermon.

    If that is so, then he should not have done so… but someone ripping off Driscoll does not excuse Driscoll ripping off other people.

  32. (off topic)

    This story is kinda old, like a week or so old. It involves David Barton and Ken Copeland.

    Right-Wing Evangelicals Claim ‘Good Christians’ Can’t Get PTSD

    By Rob Shryock
    On a Veteran’s Day broadcast, two of America’s most influential televangelists [Kenneth Copeland and Barton] claimed that good Christians can’t get PTSD.

    …Barton believes that anybody who behaves “biblically” during war can’t get PTSD.

    …Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission president Russell Moore, who brought counseling into the SBC.

    In 2005, as the dean of theology at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Moore unmade the school’s trademark “Pastoral Counseling” program, which integrated psychology with theology, and replaced it with an Adams-inspired biblical counseling program.

  33. Jon wrote:

    If the evidence that Mefferd puts forward is enough to convict Mark then the opposite must now be true. Will she begin a campaign against Ron?

    If Ron publishes his own set of rules for others to live by and then he violates those rules himself, then she should. But otherwise, she should aim her volleys suqarely at Driscoll, and she should receive your hearty support, instead of your pissant sneering.

    http://marshill.com/creativecommons

  34. Okay guys, I usually don’t like to threadjack but I have a totally rookie blogger question. It seems someone linked to Scarlet Letters on the Bayly Blog (probably because of my patriocentricity-isn’t-dead post getting 400 hits in two days, which is a new record for me), or so my referrals list seems to indicate. What should I do if a certain infamous female personage, or others of her ilk, arrive in my comments section? I want to make sure I have a strategy in place in case they start the usual game of bully-and-troll on me.

    And yes, I must admit my initial gut reaction was something along the lines of “OH PLEASE DEAR GOD NO ANYONE BUT THEM!!!!! I DON’T HAVE TIME THIS WEEK!” 🙂

    Dee, if this question is better handled off-list, you can delete this comment.

  35. @ Hester: Saints preserve us! You have receives a visit from the infamous Kamilla. She has been banned on more blogs than Seneca! The best thing to do with her is to ignore her or to quietly ban her from your blog. Just do not approve her comments.

    Of course, you may try to converse. But, it will not be fruitful conversation. i know. I tried. Recently she called us “vile.” Me! I am adorable, not vile. However, let me know if she is over there. I would be happy to pay a visit.

  36. dee wrote:

    She has been banned on more blogs than Seneca!

    She has been banned from more blogs than I have ever visited.

    It’s not a sin if you ban her from ever commenting. It’s a preemptive strike against mind-numbing circular logic and against a time wasting/sucking black hole.

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  38. @ dee & Mara:

    Thanks. I’ve heard the “war stories” about Kamilla from others, thus why I asked. Nothing’s happened yet, and I haven’t been over there to see how they linked to me because BB is one place I just cannot stomach. I was just afraid that this was going to happen at SL and I really didn’t want that.

    It’s funny, I vaguely recall having an exchange here once where I asked questions about her and everyone basically told me to stop talking, as if she were Beetlejuice and she would materialize if I said her name too many times. 😉

  39. Daisy wrote:

    (off topic) (Rick Warren’s new diet book)
    It looks to me on the internet that most people either hate Rick Warren or love the guy.
    I don’t agree with all of Warren’s theology or approaches, but I don’t hate him.
    I don’t have a good feeling about Warren hyping a diet book. He’s a preacher, not a professional trainer or Dietitian(so far as a I know).
    Pastor Rick Warren releases new faith-based diet book
    How “faith based” can a diet book be?
    Pray before eating each 600 calorie laden meal then doing Aerobics for 45 minutes and maybe some weight lifting, too, if you’re over 40?
    Why do I need to buy a book for that?
    It’s common sense stuff, stuff I learned in health courses in high school/college, and you can get lots of diet info for free online.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UotGvG4r4zA

  40. dee wrote:

    @ Hester: Saints preserve us! You have receives a visit from the infamous Kamilla. She has been banned on more blogs than Seneca!

    *
    Oh surely not –
    *

  41. Daisy wrote:

    This story is kinda old, like a week or so old. It involves David Barton and Ken Copeland.
    Right-Wing Evangelicals Claim ‘Good Christians’ Can’t Get PTSD

    Interesting. Once again, there are no victims, just bad Christians. Gross.

  42. Hester wrote:

    as if she were Beetlejuice and she would materialize if I said her name too many times.

    Or in Harry Potter when the Snatchers appear when you say the name of He-Who-Must Not-Be-Named

  43. @ dee:

    Since I’ve already threadjacked, I might as well ask you something else. I have a friend who needs some help working through the science of creation/evolution issues. Since this isn’t a problem for me at all and I’m only knowledgeable about the theological issues, I don’t know quite where to point her, so I was wondering what would be some good places to start? She told me that she’s tired of “spin” and just wants scientific facts. It’s pretty important as it’s one of the main things making her and her sister doubt the credibility of Christianity at this point.

    If all else fails, is OldJohnJ available to answer questions or is he too busy? I trust his judgment on these issues, he seems level-headed and fair, and he’s certainly better equipped to answer the science questions than I am.

  44. @ Hester:
    Hester, I braved the site and looked for references to your blog but it looks like they’ve decided your blog is a no-go and have deleted the links. That’s if I were on the right post which I’m pretty sure I was. Hopefully that means you can rest easy.

  45. @ Hester:

    Hope it’s OK that I jump in. Take a look at Evolution:What the Fossils Say and Why it Matters by Donald Prothero, a professor of geology

  46. @ Hester: I am sure John would be happy to help. I can also recommend Old Earth.org, Biologos and Reason to Believe as a good place to provide an alternative to Young Earth Creationism. Old Earth does a study by study rebut of AIG which is quite helpful. The other sites also answer many of the question raised by AIG.

  47. Estelle wrote:

    @ Hester:
    Hester, I braved the site and looked for references to your blog but it looks like they’ve decided your blog is a no-go and have deleted the links. That’s if I were on the right post which I’m pretty sure I was. Hopefully that means you can rest easy.

    Hester, you should take the link deletion as a complement. They leave the ridiculous links up. They only delete the ones that make too much sense and threaten their silly little patriarchal house of cards.

  48. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Chris wrote:
    “… the key to marriage is submission…”.
    And why wouldn’t it be “The key to marriage is the husband giving his life for his wife (or as I heard it put once ‘Just shut up and die’)?”

    Because “The Man PENETRATES! COLONIZES! CONQUERS! PLANTS! The Woman lies back and Accepts!”

  49. dee wrote:

    @ JeffT: This is a great book that puts to rest the AIG adage that there are no transitional species.

    Around 10 years ago, when Young Earth Creation Uber Alles was killing the old God’s Creatures mailing list, I posted how “No Transitional Species” is a RIGGED argument. Here’s how it’s rigged:

    1) Take a handful of change from your pocket. This represents a finite amount of fossils in the fossil record.
    2) Set down two coins with a little distance between them.
    3) YEC points to gap between the two. “Where’s the Transitional Species?”
    4) Put a third coin between the two.
    5) YEC points to the two gaps between the three coins. “Where’s the Transitional Species?”
    6) Put two coins in the gaps.
    7) YEC points to the FOUR gaps between the five coins. “Where’s the Transitional Species? Huh? Huh? Huh?”
    8) Repeat steps (6) & (7) until you run out of coins.
    9) See the YEC crow in triumph.

  50. @ Anon:
    Ok, so you’re actually more concerned with the hypocrisy … that’s cool.

    I’m just as fired up as the next guy with Driscoll’s plagiarism and his hypocrisy but I’m not cool with using lies/bad evidence to prove it.

    And if being concerned that people actually use truth to further the accusation makes me a pissant, so be it.

  51. Jon wrote:

    I’m just as fired up as the next guy with Driscoll’s plagiarism and his hypocrisy but I’m not cool with using lies/bad evidence to prove it.

    If you are concerned, have you followed it up with an email to Janet Mefferd with your evidence. I did forward your comment to her. But, you need to stand up for truth which means gathering the evidence, making a logical argument and sending to the one you are saying “lied.”

    Instead, you told me to go look it up. This is turfing your responsibility. We started a blog to present our arguments in the public venue so that our thoughts would be critiqued. It’s called being a stand up critic.

    I happen to know what a pain in the neck it is to build a case by finding the evidence and presenting it complete with links in a cohesive fashion. You need to do the same.

  52. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    That is the most clear argument on how AIG deals with this subject that I have read. May I appropriate your intellectual property sometime in the future?

    You cannot imagine all the people who come on blogs and claim there are no transitional species. When I point them to the websites that disprove it, they go away. Only people like Ken Ham continue to spread this hackneyed belief that there are no transitional species. I can always tell the people who have not researched it when they say they have “examined the scientific evidence” and then say there are no transitional species.

  53. @ HUG:

    What they had me do in class (not my parents, other people) was construct “trees” to show how paper clips evolved into light bulbs, or other household objects.

  54. @ dee:

    Do you have John’s contact info/email? If he’s willing to help but doesn’t want it shared publicly you can email it to me. Thanks for the other references. That was the general crop of sites I was leaning toward but just wanted to make sure.

  55. @ Estelle:

    I wondered why the referrals didn’t show up this morning. There were 6 last night and then they abruptly ended. Thank goodness, too, my Christmas concert season is fast approaching and I do not have time to deal with the Bayly Bullies.

  56. Hester wrote:

    If all else fails, is OldJohnJ available to answer questions or is he too busy?

    Dee, please forward my email address to Hester. I’m retired and can answer a few questions.

  57. @ Daisy:

    Daisy,

    Regarding your statement related to Rick Warren, you are dead on in many respects. I like the guy, but I do think he needs to stay in his area of expertise, and not give advice about Syria, medical issues etc.

    We have a woman who visited our church for about a year, and she could not stand Rick Warren. She said he was the “enemy.” Can you believe that?

    She also was really anti-Calvinism, but really was not educated enough to know what Calvinism is.

    She was hawking a bunch of stuff about prophecy, that Obama was the anti-Christ, that Nimrod (a king mentioned in the Tower of Babel account) was a seminal figure. She was trying to get people into criticizing the church for following Nimrod for having a Christmas tree.

    We tried to help her, and encouraged her to get in Bible studies with people teaching who knew what they were talking about. What she really wanted was to reform our church.

    But fortunately, our polity is such that people like that do not get platforms. So, she moved on.

    But calling Rick Warren the enemy had to top the list for me.

    And by the way, if you want to know how much money can be made by Christians and dieting books, you might recall “The Weigh Down Workshop” or something like that by Gwen Shamblin (sp?). She made a mint! Millions. She donated a lot to Lipscomb University, and then started her own church, Remnant Fellowship. It has a “surviors” situation, too. I think that they have strange child rearing rules etc. Also, she does not believe in the Trinity. The Holy Spirit is not the third person of the Trinity.

    I learned this when I heard of her. The Churches of Christ are really on the verge of Trinity denial, but they don’t go all the way. In fact, when we sign the hymn “Holy, Holy, Holy” the line that says “God in three persons, blessed Trinity, is not sung in the Church of Christ. They sing, “God over all things, blessed eternally” or something like that. The Mormons do the same with that song, but for completely different reasons. There is no Trinity in Mormonism. Jesus is not etermal God.

    But Gwen Shamblin does deny the Trinity outright. I think that is why she left the Church of Christ.

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  59. Mara wrote:

    It’s not a sin if you ban her from ever commenting. It’s a preemptive strike against mind-numbing circular logic and against a time wasting/sucking black hole.

    Word!

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  61. dee wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    That is the most clear argument on how AIG deals with this subject that I have read. May I appropriate your intellectual property sometime in the future?

    GO RIGHT AHEAD, DEE.
    I got the basic idea from a Steven Jay Gould essay and gave it a simpler and more graphic expression. It’s similar to an Infinite Regression loop, intended to wear out the other guy until he gives up.

  62. Hester wrote:

    @ HUG:
    What they had me do in class (not my parents, other people) was construct “trees” to show how paper clips evolved into light bulbs, or other household objects.

    That’s a new one on me.

  63. dee wrote:

    and then say there are no transitional species.

    Transitional whats? Dogs may change features over time into a dog with new dog features, but I’ve never heard of anyone finding, say, a giraffe morphing into a type of cat over time, for instance.

    When YECs discuss transition, maybe that is what they mean.

  64. Re: Mark Driscoll Alleged Plagiarism

    Here are the links to the PDFs that show a side-by-side comparison of texts. Decide for yourself:

    Call to Resurgence by Mark Driscoll (Tyndale) vs. Gospel Truth/Pagan Lies: Can You Tell the Difference? by Peter Jones (Winepress)
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwAPFUv6LWeMZ0JnaEtoSDJVeEE/edit

    Trial: 8 Witnesses From 1 & 2 Peter,” by Mark Driscoll (Mars Hill) vs. New Bible Commentary by D. A. Carson (InterVarsity Press)
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwAPFUv6LWeMdjJsWGQwcXdVZzQ/edit

  65. This was posted at Right Wing Watch’s site on Dec 6:
    New Twist In Mark Driscoll Plagiarism Scandal: ‘You May Not Go Up Against The Machine’

    What I find funny is that in trying to make this all go away, Mefferd’s retraction/apology and pulling the content made the story blow up even more, it appears to me.

    If she had not issued an apology and just continued on with her show and dialed down the Driscoll talk day by day to zero, I don’t think the story would have exploded further.

  66. @ dee:

    My point exactly! Grace Driscoll makes it out to be the responsibility of the woman to keep the entire marriage together by being “submissive” enough. Repugnant. Not to mention grooming women to be victims.

    Btw, in subsequent posts, my original post gets quoted in part, so it looks as if I’m agreeing with Mrs Driscoll. I can assure you I don’t, lol.

  67. For those who haven’t seen these links, they may be hugely helpful in getting more understanding about this topic.

    1. Here is the Archive Material Screenshots of Mefferd’s Research:
    http://web.archive.org/web/20131205165913/http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/12/04/breaking-janet-mefferd-removes-tweets-and-blog-material-regarding-mark-driscoll-and-alleged-plagiarism/

    2. Here is an article from someone who knows Tyndale:
    http://unsettledchristianity.com/2013/12/an-open-letter-to-tyndalehouse-regarding-known-liar-and-plagiarist-pastormark/

    3. Here is one more article by a professor for consideration:
    http://www.pajamapages.com/on-

  68. @ Barb Orlowski: thanks for that, Barb!

    per one of the links to the unsettledchristianity post, Intervarsity Press has called MD on failing to give proper acknowledgement/and credit per one of their publications. (In a now out of print title by MD.)

    You all saw what happened when the author of “A Million Little Pieces” was exposed – when it was discovered that his supposed account of his time in drug rehab was actually fiction. The outcry was enormous, and rightfully so.

    That someone in the supposedly xtian publishing world should have the power of a Mafia boss is… well, you already know!

  69. The link to the side by side of Driscoll’s book Real Marriage and Dan Allender’s book The Wounded Heart, mentioned in the OP, is no longer working. I’d love to see a screen shot of the parallel between the two if anybody has a link to it. Thanks.

  70. Breaking News.

    Slate author Ruth Graham just posted this expose on Mark Driscoll and why Janet Mefferd backed down.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/life/faithbased/2013/12/mark_driscoll_plagiarism_accusations_janet_mefferd_accused_the_seattle_pastor.html

    Two interesting quotes:

    Janet Mefferd had sent an email to Ruth Graham:

    But she [Jane] says her apology shouldn’t be mistaken for a recanting. “I stand by my allegations of insufficient sourcing, absolutely and unequivocally,” she said by email. “His plagiarism is a very serious ethical and moral breach. Academics and journalists alike have lost their jobs over less than what Mark Driscoll has done.” Mefferd says that “no attorneys were involved in this situation” and that no one at Mars Hill Church, where Driscoll is pastor, suggested she remove the materials.

    From Mark Driscoll’s latest book:

    … “I have been hated, protested, despised, lied about, threatened, and maligned so many times and in so many ways I could not even begin to recount them all.”

    Ruth’s comment:

    For a powerful leader, … he is quick to emphasize his victimhood….”

  71. @ Janey: Notice how the same sentence with two words removed (one of them because I don’t know the contents of Fiscal’s heart and will not pretend to) is still demonstrably accurate:

    I have been hated, protested, despised, lied about, threatened, and maligned so many times and in so many ways I could not even begin to recount them all.

    I have protested, despised, lied about, threatened, and maligned so many times and in so many ways I could not even begin to recount them all.

    I wish those who can’t stand the heat would leave the kitchen to “little” men and women who can, and do so without any of the wealth and privilege that comes with a celebrity pulpit.

  72. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I have protested, despised, lied about, threatened, and maligned so many times and in so many ways I could not even begin to recount them all.

    yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, and yep.

    He has also mocked and bullied and shamed.

    I get so tired of ‘manly’ men who can dish it out, hand over fist… But when it comes to taking it, they whine worse than any grade school girls I’ve seen.

  73. @ Janey:

    Thanks for posting that. A quick check of Driscoll’s name on Google news turned up a few other, new articles or editorials, such as
    Did Mark Driscoll Plagiarize the Wrong Person?

    There’s also this headline:

    John Piper Calls Out Mark Driscoll On Ghostwriting -Patheos

    About Driscoll’s comments, as quoted above:

    … “I have been hated, protested, despised, lied about, threatened, and maligned so many times and in so many ways I could not even begin to recount them all.”

    I think Driscoll brings on a lot of that himself.

    I know merely being a conservative Christian who doesn’t support abortion or homosexuality, and so on, will automatically get one vilified by those who do support those things, but Driscoll (again, in my view) goes out of his way to speak out unnecessarily harshly against those subjects (and others) in an intentionally hostile, condescending tone, and I think that is what plays a part in why he gets so much flack from people.

  74. Daisy wrote:

    Driscoll… “I have been hated, protested, despised, lied about, threatened, and maligned so many times and in so many ways I could not even begin to recount them all.”

    He could also say,
    “I have hated, despised, lied about, and maligned so many decent, loving people – members of my own church who dared to question me, and in so many ways I could not even begin to count them all. I have bragged about the big pile of their dead bodies behind my bus.”

  75. visitor wrote:

    The link to the side by side of Driscoll’s book Real Marriage and Dan Allender’s book The Wounded Heart, mentioned in the OP, is no longer working. I’d love to see a screen shot of the parallel between the two if anybody has a link to it. Thanks.

    From what I can make out, this site has a copy (it’s under Driscoll Plagiarism Four #4)
    Evidence of Plagiarism or Swatting at a Hornets Nest
    (pdf copies of Driscoll’s alleged plagiarism)

    When you click on that #4 link, though, the content appears pretty small. I’ve been trying to figure out how to increase it.

    I don’t see a “+” tool (to increase page/text size) like you normally get when hovering over the bottom right of a PDF, nor does hitting ‘CTRL’ with ‘+’ to increase overall browser content seem to work.

  76. visitor wrote:

    The link to the side by side of Driscoll’s book Real Marriage and Dan Allender’s book The Wounded Heart, mentioned in the OP, is no longer working. I’d love to see a screen shot of the parallel between the two if anybody has a link to it. Thanks.

    I tried doing a “save as” on the document Daisy linked above. Then I was able to enlarge it, but it still wasn’t very clear.

    In addition, you might want to try this link: http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2013/09/real-marriage-chapter-7-part-2.html

    That blog post by WenatcheeTheHatchet gives a side-by-side of the content in an easy-to-read format, even though it’s not a photocopy as the other link is. Then you can also click on the “Real Marriage” label on the bottom of WTH’s post, for other articles he’s written about it.

  77. A good article at http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/december-web-only/real-problem-with-mark-driscolls-citation-errors.html?start=1

    The Real Problem with Mark Driscoll’s ‘Citation Errors’
    And it isn’t plagiarism. by Andy Crouch [ posted 12/10/2013 4:04PM ]

    A good quote: “But “Pastor Mark Driscoll,” the author of “literally thousands of pages of content a year,” the purveyor of hundreds of hours of preaching, is in grave danger of becoming a false image. No human being could do what “Pastor Mark Driscoll” does—the celebrity is actually a complex creation of a whole community of people who sustain the illusion of an impossibly productive, knowledgeable, omnicompetent superhuman. The real danger here is not plagiarism—it is idolatry.”

  78. Janey wrote:

    For a powerful leader, … he is quick to emphasize his victimhood….”

    Isn’t one of the most certain signs of a sociopath the mutant power to Induce Pity Me?