Membership by number…..so if you give more, could your number raise to number #3 or perhaps #1? Could that be in the future? A sign of your loyalty to the church?

In the words of a Furtick overseer, aka Uncle Jack, “I have to sacrifice the few for the good of the many” regarding his failure to report known child sex abuse at Prestonwood. This is the SBC way, numbers not souls. One word comes to mind: millstone.

such a reproach on Christ. glad what was hidden is is being exposed. sadly, many small churches are not guiltless here; they just don’t get the coverage. They are all about the numbers too. As a pastor, half of the members in my church is consumed with our numbers and our budget. I long for the day when churches primary concern is not numbers and budgets, but holiness and biblical faithfulness and actual true growth i.e. truly new regenerate people who have not grown up in church being baptized into the community of faith.

Two words: Oy vey.

This so-called “report” is a parody of itself. I’m not sure any of us could add to it.

Great article, Dee!

JeffT wrote:

The SBC will tolerate pretty much anything for the sake of numbers – except women in the pulpit.

Ouch.

Odd thing about that “confidential” annual report, that is kept all secret and hard to get your hands on, is that there is NO confidential, secret information in the thang!! It’s all smoke and mirrors. When a member (that isn’t a member because they don’t have membership?!) sees it, they probably think they’ve hit the big time, unless they’re knowledgeable enough to realize there’s nothing worth seeing in it!

$9 mil in one year for sound and lights??? Is this a contract with a company that provides them? If so, who owns the company? Great way to shuffle $$$ to someone.

Having been on church budget committees and personnel committees, the above board stuff one can do should be sufficient. But I suspect there is some other means of transfer going on here.

“Cash rules everything around me
C.R.E.A.M get the money
Dollar, dollar bill y’all” -Wu-Tang Clan

OK, here’s the thing: it’s likely just a matter of time before the whole things crashes from within because of corruption. It may start with hiding the finances, but it rarely ends there. When people put themselves in a situation where they can hide their actions and dealings and avoid accountability, they are just asking to be overwhelmed with temptation. Sin has a way of spreading way beyond just one area.

Unfortunately, I’ve seen this kind of thing several times in my life, a couple of times up very close with people I thought I could trust. In both those cases I got away from it as fast as I could, and at considerable personal cost (specifically, loss of a job in one case, and loss of a relationship in another). It’s not pretty. Anyone with half an ounce of discernment and brainpower should flee this kind of situation while they still can.

Lord have mercy.

pcapastor wrote:

Did some quick calculations; as a pastor of a church roughly 1/50th the size of Elevation, it only takes us 10 years to give away approx. $1 million. In other words, if Elevation gave away $ at the fairly normal rate we try to (approx. 20% of total budget), they would have given away closer to $50 million by now.

But you actually care about giving money away to the needy. It appears to me that Elevation seems to be more interested in quoting a number to get people to shut up about all the other money that appears to be devoted to stupid visuals of people stating their “number.”

Dee wrote:

pcapastor wrote:
Did some quick calculations; as a pastor of a church roughly 1/50th the size of Elevation, it only takes us 10 years to give away approx. $1 million. In other words, if Elevation gave away $ at the fairly normal rate we try to (approx. 20% of total budget), they would have given away closer to $50 million by now.
But you actually care about giving money away to the needy. It appears to me that Elevation seems to be more interested in quoting a number to get people to shut up about all the other money that appears to be devoted to stupid visuals of people stating their “number.”

More fun with numbers:

For every $1 a normal person gives to a fairly normal church like mine, approx. $0.20 is given away; for every $1 someone gives to Elevation, something like $0.04 is given away.

“You are Number Six.”

“Who is Number One?”

“That would be telling.”

@ dee:

Thanks. My iPhone just had a white space there (this often happens with videos at blog sites). Had to go to the laptop (which is a Mac as well) to view. I don’t know why some videos don’t show up on the iPhone.

Gotta love Steve Taylor….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV5X6jR9TZY

K.D. wrote:

My 83 yr old mother who’s been SBC forever says she doesn’t recognize anything….the music, the doctrine, the only thing she says stays the same is the quarterly sermon on the tithe….

The only constant is “It’s All About the Benjamins, Baby”?

Sorry – bit late. What was the question again?

@ Hester:
It’s smoke and mirrors. In the church I used to work at, they did this all the time. (Sigh – took me a while to catch on.) They give the members detailed reports on irrelevant data. The members see it and think, “Wow, they’re really keeping track of their spending down to the details…la la la la la…” The image of keeping track of breath mints suggests sruplious attention to the financial details…. “See, look how we keep track of all these little things”…shown with one hand to distract from what the other hand is doing. Financial Hocus Pocus…..

FBC Jax Watchdogs just posted about Steven Furtick’s brother Matt Furtick and the nasty stuff he’s been tweeting to and about the WCNC reporter, Stuart Watson.http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2013/11/steven-furticks-brother-goes-into.html I looked at Matt Furtick’s Twitter feed and he has also been attacking Keith Larson, the WBT radio talk show host who interviewed Stuart Watson. On Twitter, he’s @MattFurtick.

Marge Sweigart wrote:

FBC Jax Watchdogs just posted about Steven Furtick’s brother Matt Furtick and the nasty stuff he’s been tweeting to and about the WCNC reporter

Wow – I just read that over at watchdog. Juvenile to say the least.

@ Tim Lawing:
Hey 4591 you should tattoo your number on your forehead. So when 4592 sees you in the foyer you can get the respect you deserve. As as far as your question as to is the offering more important than the people. Let everyone there stop giving and see how long your loving pastor would stay around. I am also glad to hear that the members don’t care about the big house. It would be sad if they did due to the fact they are paying for it.
What really is crazy how people there thinks that none of the scriptures in the bible that talk about how hard it will be for a rich man to get into heaven, don’t apply to your Pastor.
I do have a question for you. If someone leaves the church is their number retired? Or does everyone get a new number. Seems like that number system could be a real problem should the church experience a split. Just one other question. Do they ask you to write your number on your offering check to make it easier on the staff member responsible for the tax form?. If not you might want to make a suggestion. Don’t hurt to makes some points remember there are 4590 people ahead of you. Who knows you might get invited to tour the big house.

@ Daisy:

🙂 🙂 🙂

They’ll be in there somewhere!!! Though, that said, maybe they skipped that number for superstitious reasons. A lot of streets here in Blighty don’t have a house numbered 13.

(I know, I know. I don’t make the rules.)

I just read a bunch of Matt Furtick’s tweets and am shocked that nobody has told him to knock it off. He’s resorted to name calling and mocking, all while missing what’s really happening, namely that his brother is eventually going to get called out for having an inappropriately high salary as a pastor. When this all plays out he’ll likely regret the things he’s said over the last few days.

My guess is that WCNC will soon get leaked how much money Furtick is paid as a base salary at Elevation. The figure is probably pretty high ($250k+) and will look bad, especially once all the other $$$ sources reveal total income probably in the $500k to $700k range (once they include the addt’l book sales, speaking, housing allowance, etc). The leadership at Elevation knows this will not look good, thus the stonewalling and avoidance. Once the income figures become public there will be an outcry and PR disaster for the church as people ask how charitable giving can be used for such high salaries. WCNC will probably then find out how much the other leadership is being paid and things will likely get worse.

The problem here is systemic in the church (the greater church) as a whole. The entire “celebrity pastor” element has distorted what the role of a pastor should be. Church has become just an entire production now, and whoever does the best “production” supposedly grows faster and larger than everybody else. The churches then become these bandwagon environments where excitement and exclusivity reign. At the center of it is a relatively small group (50 or less) of celebrity pastors who are making a ton of money off their preaching and leadership. Meanwhile, the leadership is getting younger and younger, thus putting a ton of inexperience in charge of multi-million dollar budgets.

The reality is that there’s no blueprint for what is appropriate compensation for ministers and church leadership, and there is likely never going to be agreement on what’s appropriate vs. what’s too much. One person might feel that $150k to $250k would be appropriate for Furtick, but someone else might say it should never be higher than $100k. Who gets to choose…and based upon what biblical reference? Some might argue that the pastor shouldn’t get paid at all, especially in Furtick’s case. They would say his speaking and book sales are more than enough. Who decides? And how?

What saddens me most is that I heard Furtick preach in person last year and thought his message was one of the most powerful I had ever heard. His message is now being tarnished because of the questions about money, and people will soon become terribly distracted from the good message he was, and is, bringing. All of it could’ve been avoided if he and his advisers had asked, “How will it look if these income figures become public?” I suspect if they thought the figures would become public, that Furtick would be paid less.

Speak for yourself…Some of us do care.

Y’know, the more I hear from and about Steven Furtive (thanks, @ Lisa!) the more he resembles another self-styled church leader I’ve read about.

Consider the following:

– he refuses to be interviewed on camera

– will only offer statements or interviews through spokesguys

– even his shills won’t allow themselves to be filmed

– he somehow convinces his parishioners to buy thousands of his books (as HUG pointed out on the previous thread)

– his followers/defenders are forever trying to deflect attention away from the possible problems, and towards his church’s good works for the community (“That’s the REAL story!” they say)

– he’s sitting on a pile of money

Reminds me a lot of a certain David Miscavige, current “ecclesiastical leader” of the “church” of Scientology. So very, very depressing. 🙁

@ Ken:
Whoops, my bad.

@ dee:

Thing is he needs high income to maintain that home and lifestyle even if he owes nothing on it. Furtick has painted himself into a dangerous corner and only through his popularity and celebrity will he be able to maintain this long term. A tenuous position. One has to wonder how long he can bank on that. Of course, he has played the system with his books, etc but these things don’t often last.

He was unwise with how he handled large sums in the first place.

And now we have his brother, Matt, with the emotional mentality of a 13 year old boy defending him on twitter with Furticks wife egging him on. People really find this credible?

It was instructive to see the “evil liberal reporter from the secular media” being more Christlike in his response.

What I see is a redefining of Christianity in too many places. It is fast becoming the refuge of scoundrals and their hangers on.

Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

Speaking of Matt’s Twitter feed, did you notice he’s received a couple of tweets from a Barbara T. Hutto? (She goes by @_imaclemsongal there.) Rather ominous for poor, “persecuted” Stevie.

I would like to point out that redefining reality with yourself as the Poor Poor Persecuted Victim (Pity Me Pity Me Pity Me) is a classic sociopath tactic. Somewhere on these threads is a comment that one of the major signs of a sociopath is that they cultivate Pity from third parties. Because if you’re pitied, they cut you slack because you’re so pitiful and you can get away with more. Poor Poor Persecuted Victim, Pity Me Pity Me Pity Me.

dee wrote:

Looks like I need to do some reading. Who is she? I will Google. There you are, all the way in Japan, and you know more about this area than we do! You’re good!

Nah, just happened to click on a few extra conversations on Matt’s Twitter feed, and an interesting-looking convo popped up. I’m probably spending way more time on this stuff than I should, anyway. Need more sleep. X(

I took a screen grab of what I saw, and e-mailed it to you just now. I don’t think this Barbara Hutto has gone public with anything yet — from her tweets, it seems that she was giving Pastor Furtive some time to contact her first. No idea who she is, what her story is, or whether you’ll find anything on Google. Could be nothing there, but I thought I’d let you know.

Some of us do care and have some serious concerns.@ MOs:

BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

I’ve been caught unaware by a few of those myself. They are trying to show how ridiculously over-the-top the Elevators’ thinking is.

Fact is, the Elevators’ thinking is SO ridiculously over-the-top you have a hard time figuring out whether it’s a parody or genuine.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Fact is, the Elevators’ thinking is SO ridiculously over-the-top you have a hard time figuring out whether it’s a parody or genuine.

That, of course, is the gist of Poe’s Law.

Poe’s Law was named after Po, the Dragon Warrior and hero of the film Kung Fu Panda, the spin-off TV series from which my daughter is currently watching.

P.S. Typo alert – that should be the Department for Work and Pensions.

(Not for the first time.)

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

The main Los Angeles afternoon drive-time talk radio coined the term “Spokesholes” for just such Official Spokespersons(TM). Probably derived from their speaking coming out the opposite end.

LOL!! My dad, 2nd generation career Army, used to call them ” personnel pukes.” There was no one lower in his opinion, than blowhards who believed they controlled YOUR destiny, yet seemed to answer to no one. And this, when life and death was at stake. Hmmmmm…. Sounds a bit like…

from my new post: Numbers, not souls: a culture ripe for abuse

In any large organization that amasses wealth and power from its constituents, where there is no transparency and accountability, the environment is ripe for abuse and the cover-up of abuse. When the souls of those constituents become numbers that lack individual value, should they decide to leave, they are easily replaced by others eager to take their number among the masses. Numbers are impersonal and lack moral relevance. When confronted with crimes against children in a church like Prestonwood, do the leaders see the souls of those children harmed? Do they see the souls of the children who will be preyed upon when the accused minister is pushed away to a new, unsuspecting church and community?

It is so difficult to be immersed in these abusive cultures and speak out. From my personal experience and hearing from victims, there are people, acting on behalf of churches where abuse has occurred and covered up like at Prestonwood, who intimidate and threaten those who muster the courage to break the silence.

I’ve written about being estranged from my parents, because they are very angry at me for speaking out publicly about the abuse that occurred at Prestonwood. I have heard from one of Langworthy’s victims and his parents who have told me that my dad called, as a deacon of Prestonwood, and told them to leave Langworthy alone, back in 1989. My dad also warned me and my husband in August 2011 after my interview aired on WFAA:
“You and Amy are going to pay a big price for what has been done here. I’m telling you. You don’t go on witch hunts from 22 years ago. You don’t.”

I will not live in fear any longer. I know that my God loves me. His ways are not the ways of an earthly father that seeks to invoke fear in his daughter. What I’ve only told very few people privately is that I grew up living in fear because my dad was physically abusive to my mom. Fear imprisons. Love protects and sets free. Love welcomes the truth. I know the One who is the Truth who sets me free.

Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

– his followers/defenders are forever trying to deflect attention away from the possible problems, and towards his church’s good works for the community (“That’s the REAL story!” they say)

“And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.”

God can do good work through even a fool. It doesn’t mean we should pursue, or be okay with, foolishness. Every day it amazes me how many people can get caught into idol worship. They love to say how much people worship singers like Britney, but I’ve never seen people more obsessed then those who religiously follow celebrity pastors.

David wrote:

The problem here is systemic in the church (the greater church) as a whole. The entire “celebrity pastor” element has distorted what the role of a pastor should be.

David – couldn’t agree more. The “celebrity pastor” is no pastor at all, but the CEO of a para-church organisation devoted to an unusual form of motivational speaking / lifestyle guru marketing. They invariably add a model of “discipleship” to the basic purchase their clients make at the altar call, but they resemble Weightwatchers more than anything else. They have leadership, weekly meetings and discipleship too.

I like the model that the Church of England uses, which is that their pastors (strictly, “vicars”, which is kind of code for “priests” – but I won’t go to war over the wording) are not paid a salary at all, but a stipend. This is not a payment for services rendered, but a recognition that they have a calling to care for and teach God’s people, and it is intended to enable them to give themselves wholly to their calling without having to worry about how they will feed their families as they do so. It is not particularly large, though it is commonly part of a “package” that includes a house. This itself is (for want of a better phrase) a mixed blessing because the house (or “vicarage”) remains the property of the church and the vicar is generally expected to keep his home open, within reason, for pastoral and other parish duties. Plus, he’s not on the “housing ladder” which can cause hardship if he leaves the ministry. Nobody joins the Anglican priesthood to get rich.

Wait…. isn’t the 9 million in AV equipment for the 5 new locations? At least that’s the way I read it in the report. Not defending the choice in spending but also don’t want to give Furtick & Co grist for the mill.

Steven Furtick: “If You Know Jesus, …Elevation Church Is Not For You…”

    Elevation Church is not a true New Testament “Church”, in the ‘biblical’ sense, as outlined in the New Testament Book of Acts, but a christian outreach ministry that requests that the un-saved give this 501c nonprofit corporation money citing the bible as the source of the request.  Once the individual makes a profession of faith, they are strongly encouraged to attend religious services elsewhere in the community, as this is  a 501c non-profit who’s stated purpose is to seek and save the lost.  Once ‘saved’ this church is not for you, is the saying. This ministry is akin to the old tent ministries where a traveling evangelist would set up a tent for a season,  and preach the message of salvation to all those of the community in attendance.  Only Steven Furtick is acting as a “stay in the community” evangelist, electronic media notwithstanding . The long term results/effects of this 501c religious not-for-profit corporation, is yet to be determined.

Christians are to be forewarned: “If You Know Jesus”, Steven Furtick says that his church is not for you.
____
Notes: 
Video: Steven Furtick – What is the purpose of this church?  Here the Pastor of Elevation Church, in Charlotte NC. expounds upon ‘why’ his church exists…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wILPzCyWYk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevation_Church
The church description here does not include stating the intended purpose of this 501c religious non-profit ‘church’.
–-

@ Bridget

Often with these type of “churches” that you describe, the broken condition of Man’s imagination, becomes a manipulation tool. (“for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth” ~ Genesis 8:21; “All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations—”~ Isaiah 65:2 NIV. The new life in Christ, and shedding light on what that really means for the Christian’s walk with God is often overlooked because it doesn’t sell. Religious freedom in Christ is a scary proposition in some religious circles.

Some of the churches you describe still push the “we have to interpret the bible for you” mantra. And people fall for it any given Sunday. William Tyndale placed the bible in the hands of his fellow countrymen so that they could read for themselves God’s word, trusting God’s Spirit to provide; as God’s word never gives a voided return. These pastors of whom you speak, are apparently banking on averaging – that the ‘average’ church attender doesn’t read God’s word for themselves, much less understand the fruitful abundance of His precious promises.

—

Oh, it is true:

http://hollyfurtick.typepad.com/the_preachers_wife/2011/02/love-post-1.html

But at least he isn’t trying to keep it a secret…or his wife let the cat out of the bag.