EChurch@Wartburg – 9.22.13

Welcome to a Gathering of EChurch@Wartburg

Here Is Our Order of Worship  If you are new to EChurch, please click on this link for an explanation​Autumn Lake Reflections

Here Is Our Order of Worship

If you are new to EChurch, please click on this link for an explanation​


A Celtic Prayer: A Haven link

Lord, take this song
and fill it with Your presence.
Let it bring a word of hope
to weary care-full hearts.
Take this song
and fill it, Lord.
Fill it with Yourself.

Lord, take my life
and fill it with Your praises.
Let me speak a word of peace
that Jesus brings in me.
Take this life
and fill it, Lord.
Fill it with Yourself.

Lord, take this place
and fill it
with Your blessing.
Let it be a haven
where the
poor in spirit
sing.
Take this place
and fill it, Lord.
Fill it with Your praise.
Amen

A Prayer of Presence link
God of Israel, God of Jesus, your name is Shekinah, Presence.
We feel your saving presence in our bodies, our emotions, our hopes.

You appear in deserts and oases, in crisis and at quiet meals.
Your epiphanies calm our fears and heal our shame.

Help us to recognize you in all your faces –
in the flesh as well as in the spirit, in Eros as well as in Logos.

Help us remember that Jesus is God’s desire in the flesh,
God’s body language.

Make us alive to our world, and through it, alert us to your presence.

Amen

Scripture Reading:  Hebrews 13:17a (NASB Bible Gateway)

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.


Prayer of St. Benedict link
O gracious and holy Father,
give us wisdom to perceive you,
diligence to seek you,
patience to wait for you,
eyes to behold you,
a heart to meditate upon you,
and a life to proclaim you;
through the power of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, our Lord.
Amen

A Video ​Benediction

Now go into the world, changed.

Comments

EChurch@Wartburg – 9.22.13 — 40 Comments

  1. ‘YOu see a spiritual leader refers people to God’s authority and NEVER to his.’

    Yes, today we concentrate too much on our ‘authority’. WHY you should listen and ‘obey’ us. Its never persuasion, but always obedience to a human. Their words drip with manipulation when they say they are SPEAK for God. That’s the Holy Spirit’s job!

    I think of the wealthy young man that came to Jesus, and asked what else he could do for the Kingdom. Jesus asked him to give away everything, and follow him. He walked away with his head held low. Can you imagine the sermon series that would follow today if that was NOT in the bible, but happened to some control freak pastor?

    God would wait on that young man, and the pastor would blow him off. One is the divine authority…and the other just thinks they are.

    You have some in the church that are in ‘leadership’ and realize they are still human…and can be deceived. Then you have those that think they should be obeyed. Those types might seem scary, but they are the true cowards.

    I honestly think parts of this message is similar to what the Pope said in an interview this week. Meet the people where they are, and be the persuasion for God – allow the Holy Spirit to move them in other ways that God sees fit. You need to be a reminder of the God’s love, and allow God to drive the point home. He works on the heart, and this person will know when its time for that ‘set of rules’ you so badly want to show them! lol! Everyone has been there – show them the rules – but they won’t hear if they don’t see the love, grace, and humility beforehand. Allow Jesus to transform, and you might be surprised how they are not rules anymore…just how they wish to live their life. As it should – as God wants it.

    Transformation is more important that list of ‘rules’ any day.

  2. “God Wait’in On Da Veranda: Mint Juleps Abound?”

    huh?

    “…God would wait on that young man, and the pastor would blow him off. One is the divine authority…and the other just thinks they are.”
    ~Hannah Thomas  

    hmmm…

    God waited and patiently provisionally providentially pursued this young person, and yet da proverbial  ‘pastor’ blew dem off?

    hmmm…

    figures.

    …One is da Supreme Número Uno -‘divine authority’…and de other just a proverbially perspicuous presumptuous pompous profoundly perambolat’in p-r-o-p-e-l-l-e-r proponent.

    (aka, a ‘quack’ preacher?) -snicker-

    What?

    Ya think?

    (grin)

    hahahahahaha

    What ever gave you dat idea?

    S“㋡”py

  3. I thought this was an excellent clarification of Hebrews 13:17, Wade. Thank you. While we may not hear “You must obey us” or “You must submit,” I wonder if the barrage of rules, contracts, constitutions, mission statements, and resolutions aren’t enough to send the same message and make clear the dividing line between the clergy and laity. Sadly it often seems overwhelming to just try to be part of a like-minded fellowship of believers.

    Aside from the “power grab” from some pastors, I can’t imagine the number of sad, stressful situations they/you must attend to on a day-to-day basis.

    Anyway, I greatly appreciate you, E-church and Deb for making it available!

  4. – I shall gather my chicks-  웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦웃❦…

    ~ Jesus, -who is who was who is to come…

    hmmm…

    The biggest problem in the American christianity  scene today, is that church leadership have written themselves into the church’s future. 

    hmmm…

    only the future is their own, not Jesus’.

    What?

    Jesus is patiently gathering His chicks.

    Here chicky, chicky…

    American christian church leadership, on the other hand, has a bad habit of gathering minions unto themselves.

    Yessssss! M-a-s-t-e-r…

    March, March, March, March, March, March… Bump!

    Crash.

    …gathered unto Jesus, to be His people, what the bible says as His bride?

    huh?

    Somehow, It is lõõkin pretty much o-t-h-e-r wise. Gump!

    …all men are being drawn to Jesus?

    Shreeeeeeeeeeetch!

    Calvnestas: “if we raise up Calvin…
    If we serve up a form of Calvinism from the christian pulpit, we will draw all men to us…”

    “…to us.”

    (sadface)

    hmmm…

    “I will worship you…, I will worship you…,I will worship you…  Jesus !

    “With All I Am…”

    (tears)

    Sopy
    ___
    Bonus: Hillsong: “With All I Am”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZYPfYe77PA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  5. @ Erik:I am so glad that you found this community at TWW. You will find many who have had similar experience at the hands of silly, arrogant and misguided leaders. I would laugh at their nonsense if it didn’t make me cry.

    It is a new era of brash young men who think they are now God’s priests because they completed 3 years at a seminary. They apparently no longer believe in the priesthood of the believer, merely the authoritarian rule of their kind.

    You may find today’s post (It’ll be up later in the day) to be of help to you. It will show you how misguided men persecute others in their single minded devotion to a pastor idol who is in deep trouble. You are hardly alone. This is a community forthose who get it and we are glad that you are here.

    And we really, want to hear your story.

  6. Erik wrote:

    We are in Quincy,MA

    My husband and I met at Park Street Church in downtown Boston. You should know that some of these new “radical” reformers have targeted your area since they do not believe that there are real churches in Boston.
    Erik wrote:

    he problem is that I know that I have flaws.

    You need to read the book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. Abusive churches utilize the fact that we are all flawed in order to gain power over you. Answer them by saying: “So what? I have sins and so do you ,so it is all even steven. Let’s get back to my questions.” It will totally freak them out. Do not play their game.
    Erik wrote:

    The elders constantly talk about they need to help the flock be healthy, and they seem obsessed with this discipleship movement as the means. It seems like it all started when many of the leaders, including myself, went to a VERGE conference last year.

    Stay away from discipleship theology. It is most often derived from the shepherding movement of the 70s. We have written specifically about this. You cannot win when they start that garbage. It is one big head and control game.

    You church experience was doomed the moment they got involved in Verge. Get out of there. Try Park Street or some other long established churches. Be careful of the startups. Many (if not all) are part of this “save New England” movement. It is being led by radical Neo-Calvinists who think very little of the priesthood of the believer. Your experience will continue to go downhill. You cannot change them. They think of themselves as “prophets. priests and kings” and you are there to serve them and give them lots of money.

  7. @ Erik:
    Went over to your church. Noted that the pastors did not say where they received their training. You should ask them It is a major clue.

    This statement in the upcoming sermons, etc. helped me to understand that your church has an agenda.
    “Roles: The role of a gospel centered marriage is “gospel reenactment””

    Did you know that your church is a member of The Gospel Coalition. I bet they keep that under wraps. Go see this for yourself

    http://thegospelcoalition.org/network/church-directory/state/massachusetts

    You are a member of a NeoCalvinist church which will adhere to strict ideas on gender roles and discipline. Basically, I would recommend that you get out now since things will not improve in terms of their focus on “discipling” you.

  8. dee wrote:

    They think of themselves as “prophets. priests and kings” and you are there to serve them and give them lots of money.

    amen to the above, I was also made aware from a blog that the pastor has also interpreted the meaning of the stars in revelation 2 as pastors. I found vague reference to it in commentaries but this pastor has done just that. called himself an apostle, the same as the high priest and now star to the churches. it makes one ill.
    always trying to exercise authority over the congregation and blaming them for not growing the church for not doing enough.

    erik run for the doors and do not look back!

  9. @ dee:

    “Roles: The role of a gospel centered marriage is “gospel reenactment”

    “Gospel reenactment” in marriage?? What is that? Wasn’t the real life, death, and resurrection of Christ enough? This is some scary, strange verbiage.

  10. Erik, this is from the blog of the church I used to attend. I did not mean your pastor there. Just meant to say that men are setting themselves up to have absolute authority over their flock/ referring to themselves as apostles, high priest’s and now the stars in revelation. that is what makes one ill.

    sorry if i confused you.

    We come now to the first of the seven churches of Revelation. The Lord is giving a message to the church at Ephesus. In verse one we read, “To the angel of the church of Ephesus write, ‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands:”[1] There is emphasis given to the fact that the one giving them this message holds the seven stars in His right hand. The seven stars are the seven angels or messengers of the churches. One view is that the seven stars are the pastors of the churches. This is a very probable argument. The church of Ephesus had some stellar leadership. Those who served in the church of Ephesus included: Paul, Timothy, and the Apostle John. It was a natural temptation for the church of Ephesus to think very highly of their leaders to the point of placing them on too high of a pedestal. These leaders also came and went. Jesus was communicating to the church that He holds the ‘stars’ in His hand and He places them where He wills. The message here should be that a local church should not ‘worship’ their pastor. It must be understood that Jesus Christ is the head of the church. Earthly leaders, such as pastors, will come and go. However, the true head of the church is always there. Therefore, the church should look to their true leader and not fall prey to depending too heavily upon their pastor. If a church depends too much on their pastor, then when God moves him, the church would suffer. However, if the church depends on Christ and follows Him, the church will continue to thrive even in times of transition. Pastors should also learn a lesson here to not do all the work. A good pastor will work to make disciples and develop leaders so that if God does move him, the church will continue to thrive.

  11. Erik wrote:

    However, I will say that no one knows what the finances really are here

    The chances are very good some salaries are being paid but that would not help folks give more. They don’t want it to be about money. I get that. But beware some of these “poor” plants are being supported by groups like Acts 29 who do pay some salaries.

    It could be they don’t count it because it is not that high. If it is being supported by some churches then what is the support for? Do you rent a place?

    And if you are not allowed to know such things then that is a huge red flag to run. RUN.

  12. dee wrote:

    You need to read the book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse.

    I second that, Erik.

    Also some of what I am reading you describe is “thought reform”.

  13. Erik wrote:

    have to admit that this statement didn’t resonate quickly with me. I’ve not seen any greed for money, and none of the staff is paid yet by the church.

    Let me clarify. They see you as the source for money to accomplish their goals for the church.Small churches rarely make a lot of money for the pastor.

  14. @ Erik:

    Eric, I second what many are saying. I believe your spiritual and mental health are at stake if you stay too long.

    The use of the term “TAKERS” is a manipulative tactic to control behavior. If you are not ‘plugged in’ and ‘contributing to the greater good’ – and by that, they mean volunteering and giving beyond your comfort area and devoting your free time and thought to the ‘vision’ and ‘building the local church’, you are just a taker – someone who is of no value to them. You cease to be a resource they can mine and it is a pejorative use of the word designed to cause guilt and shame and coerce people back into line. The use of this term alone is an indication they have slid into abusive behavior toward the congregation.

    I understand what you’re going through. Walking away from the church that I had poured 7 years of my life into as a leader was one of the hardest things I’ve done. And when I did, I was shunned, vilified and, almost 7 years later, I am still shunned and vilified by some. BUT…it was one of the best decisions I have ever made. After a little time outside their sphere of influence, I began to read things (like this site) online and I began to be able to see and think more clearly and see them for what they are – abusers – users – building their own kingdoms on the backs of the ‘laity’.

    I know the idea of leaving your friends and family (a church you have poured yourself into is like family) is hard. There is no way around the pain of this. I’m so sorry you and your wife are having to deal with it. But the pain of leaving is what I call ‘clean’ pain, while the pain caused by staying is ‘dirty’ pain. The clean pain heals. The dirty pain…..not so much.

    You are in my thoughts and prayers. I pray God’s strength and wisdom to you and your wife.

  15. I am a freind of Eriks. have been attending Lcc for two years now. I have been a christian for 32 years and have seen way too much church abuse. I just want to thank you for this site and for the support you have given my friend. My husband and I have made the decision to leave, I hope others will have the strength to do the same.I

  16. @ patty: Then he is blessed! So many have had to walk this road alone. I hope this blog will show you that there are many of us out here and we are not silent.

  17. Erik wrote:

    2 elders, who by the way, are both barely 30

    They are part of the “young, restless and reformed” gang that are invading churches everywhere. They have all of the answers. They know everyone else is wrong. None of the church is as spiritually aware as they are. They, of course, have the leading of the Lord.

    Let me tell you of another former young man in this movement. He, too, had all the answers. If we just followed him, our kids would grow up to be committed Christians, the church would grow with thoughtful believers and all would be well. He was young and stupid- a victim of his seminary.

    Well his kids grew up and rebelled big time. The church membership drastically declined and he finally got our of Dodge, leaving his now adult children behind. He is now inflicting his flawed theology on an unsuspecting new church.

    They do not have the wisdom and experience of age. They need someone like me to slap them upside the head. 🙂 Sorry-I couldn’t resist.

    You do not need this baloney. You will not change them. I know. I tried. Church does not need to be a constant trial. It should be a place of peace. Go somewhere else. Do not join a church for at least a year. Sit, heal and watch.

    Whatever you do, DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT sign a church covenant, especially one that mentions church discipline. This is a mistake. You will be signing a legal document. We have written extensively on this subject here, much to the dismay of some churches.

    Start here while at the same time doing a search at our site on covenants.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/08/12/membership-covenants-are-primarily-legal-protection-for-the-church/

  18. Erik wrote:

    I’m in too deep to actually see how things really are

    Do not say this about yourself. Instead, recognize that you are a Christian who hopes and believes all things. That is good. If you go through the process, there is much you will learn about them, the church and yourself. I would not give up my time as I confronted a bad situation in a church. It did not turn out well for me and others but it caused us to start this blog so that we might be an encouragement to others going through trails with their churches.

    Just make sure that you do not do damage to yourself in the process. Do not think that you haven’t argued enough or presented your case well enough. You have and you will. The problem is with them. Remember that and strive on!

  19. We love Erik and Patty, and have never wanted anything but for them to know, love, and follow Jesus. It pains us to know they feel this way. Our doors have and always will be open to them or anyone that has questions about who we are and what we do.

    Matt Bramlett
    Worship Pastor – Life Community Church

  20. Erik wrote:

    We are definitely leaning that way, but I am not yet convinced that they won’t change. I don’t know, maybe I’m in too deep to actually see how things really are. I need a wider lens, and that is what I feel you are all giving me.

    I would encourage you to go to http://www.emmanuelenid.org/index.php/media-overview/sermon-archive the Hebrew messages are very encouraging and helpful. The resources are out there and I am sure many here have other helpful resources as well.

    listen to another perspective from Wade Burleson read his blog, read the posts from the many here who have walked the road before you. and most importantly seek God through it all.

  21. patty wrote:

    I am a freind of Eriks. have been attending Lcc for two years now. I have been a christian for 32 years and have seen way too much church abuse. I just want to thank you for this site and for the support you have given my friend. My husband and I have made the decision to leave, I hope others will have the strength to do the same.I

    God bless you, Patty. It is a road many of us have traveled and it gets wearying. But then we find fellow travelers on blogs like this for such a time we are in.

  22. Erik wrote:

    It seem like mature believers don’t stay at this church very long. I told the elders that this new discipleship model “begins with the presumption that people are not already” and then one elder told me that it is “painfully obvious” that only an incredibly small few out of 250 are.

    Boy does this sound familiar. It is really strange how it works but I have seen it work that those who buy in are saved and those who don’t totally buy in or have discussions about it, aren’t. It is almost like qualifying for an exclusive club and going through their ritual. Mature believers won’t stick around for a long time because they have the Holy Spirit flashing warning signs. It is a constant balancing act for them because they need people in order to grow but they also need to control people because their doctrinal construct demands it.

    Keep in mind, it sounds like the “elders” (Mormons have young “elders”, too) are unseasoned and untested and simply parroting the teaching of their gurus. They like to trot out Timothy when age becomes a factor but forget that Timothy was tried in the trenches with Paul.

  23. @ Matt:

    You should love them. They are a beautiful gift of God, given to your fellowship. Please consider this…When someone feels the need to go elsewhere to feel safe to express difficult thoughts, perhaps our Lord is sending us a message?

    I think that everyone might benefit from reading the following post. There is a reason that we, as non-Calvinists, feature a pastor who tips towards Reformed theology. He does not call himself Reformed because he dislikes the hierarchical authoritarianism that is found in some sectors of that movement.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/10/26/wade-burleson-and-pete-briscoe-two-pastors-who-really-get-it/

    We will be following the outcome of this situation with interest, love and prayer. Hopefully, it will be resolved in such a way that we, for once, will say that there is no story here. The church functioned as it should.

  24. A whole bunch of comments were removed at the request of a dear reader. TWW is requesting that all readers begin to pray for him.

    This is a statement to the fellowship involved:

    This man is a gift to you. He is telling you something that you need to hear. Pastors aren’t the only ones who hear from God. How you respond will say a lot about your view on the priesthood of the believer.

  25. @ patty:

    We are praying for all of you. The way the church responds will speak volumes to the world.

    TWW is monitoring this situation closely. I do not know if certain people realize that our readership extends to Dubai, Australia, New Zealand, England, Scotland and even to the McMurdo station in Antarctica. I am saying this for a reason…

    We hope that we can tell everyone that, for once on our blog, some church leaders figured out how to extend love and understanding as opposed to the right boot of fellowship.

  26. “But, the people who make up the body are incredibly precious to me and my wife. It doesn’t seem fair that we have to leave. ”

    Erik, I had to learn the hard way. If they are your brothers and sisters in Christ right now, they will continue to be if you leave. That is the way it works in real Christianity. Even if there are disagreements on polity or doctrine.

    “When my pastor asked me “why would I want to stay at this church if I wasn’t in agreement with its vision?” I asked if I counted as “the church”. I asked, “Aren’t I also the church?” It was then that it became more clear that this church defines “LCC” as everyone who is agreement with the leadership.”

    this is the most heart wrenching part of it. What you saw as “your church family” you find is not if you are in disagreement. You soon find out it was the “leaders” church all along. Even if it did not feel that way in the beginning. This is even more painful when you have been at a church for a long time and new leadership comes and eventually make it “their” church because they always know best.

    “But, I know I am not alone in this tension. Am I delusional to hope for a redirection? Can there be enough of a collective resistance to cause this?”

    Ask yourself what a redirection would look like and practiced. I have yet to see collective resistance without a church split. That is just my experience. YRR have done this in many churches in my city already.

    “Another thing I wanted to ask everyone is the idea of a “TAKER”. Several times now I’ve heard attenders who are not participating in things like small groups or serving roles are “TAKERS”. For example, when I asked the elders if my wife and I could remove ourselves from being official members and just be observers for a season, we were told that “you can’t just pick and choose what parts of this church you like or want to be involved in” and if we did then we are just “TAKERS”. What is behind this idea?”

    First of all, who are they to decide “what” is a “taker” and who are takers? Are they a magisterium? What you are describing is exactly why I am uncomfortable with what the YRR types think is “elder led”. They are WAY out of bounds on this one. This is nothing but a control tactic.

    We had a single mom join our church about 5 years ago. She pretty much asked the same things you did INCLUDING if it was ok to attend and not tithe because she was so broke.(I found out later she came from a very strict YRR church). You know what she was told? We are here FOR you. While her teen is very involved she is not and more welcome and loved than ever. No one pesters her about attending things. But inquire after her needs and constantly sponsor her teen for retreats and mission trips. It is OUR duty as believers to love and help her and her child. We need to meet her where she is. And it is obvious she wants a church family for her child but has been burned. Trust is earned, my friend. We plan on earning hers.

    What on earth is church these days, I often wonder.

  27. Matt wrote:

    We love Erik and Patty, and have never wanted anything but for them to know, love, and follow Jesus

    Are you saying you think they don’t know, love and follow Jesus?

  28. This is coming straight from my heart, and no one put me up to this:

    While I agree that there needs to be a safe place for asking questions and disagreement, I also realize that my words here have been reckless and uncensored. I regret many of them, and this is why I asked them to be deleted.

    We all have different and unique experiences, and maybe we respond to each other’s stories out of that subjective perspective. For example, no one here knew the leadership at my church, but immediately concluded some extreme ideas and generalizations. I feel like I got sucked into some of the criticism, and doubted what I know to be true about these men.

    I came here for a neutral place to discuss ideas, but instead, I presented things only as I saw them, and then also left little to no room for my ideas to be wrong. I’m not right about everything. Like Wade Burleson has said, I may be very well deceived myself.

    I am not in agreement with some things at my church, and it is true that I have not felt a place to openly discuss them with any validation. However, I sincerely do love these brothers in Christ, and I have hurt them just as I feel they have hurt me.

    We are all the church, the body of Christ, and Jesus prayed to the Father that we would all be one. We must love each other. Love is a very complicated thing, as we all know that, but in the bottom of my heart, I truly see that I am guilty of unloving behavior, just as I feel all of involved are. We all need to learn from this experience, and I am remaining hopeful that we all will.

    My family is resigning from membership, and we are going to distance ourselves from the church. Regardless of who is right, or who is wrong, or if that in fact is irrelevant, we are not helping each other follow Jesus. For whatever reason, admittedly knowing I have my own “baggage”, I am not in unity with the leadership. This is creating a bad atmosphere in our hearts, and it is tainting everything.

    I want to publicly say that I do not support the presumptions many of you have made about the character of these men, and I apologize for my role in that. I appreciate that this site, and all of you, want us to have a safe place to discuss our ideas. I do not in any way diminish that. I yearn for that. But, I went too far, and I feel that some of you did also. I am just as guilty of “measuring fruit” as I feel the faulty model of discipleship does.

    I believe the elders when they say they love us. I really do. I think they are wrong about some things, and I hope they will at least consider that. But, I have never experienced malicious abuse or intentional harm to my family. I’ve been very reactive, and we all must admit that seldom comes from the Holy Spirit.

    I love you all, and covet your prayers for all of us during this very difficult situation.

  29. Hmmm, are we seeing the “don’t talk” rule being played out in real life? Erik’s comments about his view of the church he attends seemed quite reasonable to me. Do we have “gospel police” checking on what people write here so that the “authorities” can be alerted? Were there phone calls and door-step visits being made last night to do some arm twisting so a certain church wouldn’t get bad press?

    “Second and perhaps the most beneficial aspect of membership is clarification.  As I mentioned earlier, the Bible is clear that elders are held accountable for specific people, and that all Christians are expected to submit and obey their elders.    So am I, as the lead pastor of Life Community, going to be held responsible for every Christian in the world?  Or, how about you, are you as a Christian called to submit to every elder in the world?

    Membership clarifies who the elders are responsible for and also what elders individual Christians are called to submit to.”

    http://www.lifecommunitynow.org/2013/01/14/membership/

    I just don’t think that this view of “submission to elders” covers comments on a blog. So when I see “we loooooove you” accompanied by apparent “don’t talk about us”, I realise that the “Subtle Signs of Spiritual Abuse” are not really so subtle.

    I think this is all playing out as a remarkable object lesson backing up the last few posts on TWW!

  30. Erik, Thanks so much for explaining.

    “We all have different and unique experiences, and maybe we respond to each other’s stories out of that subjective perspective. For example, no one here knew the leadership at my church, but immediately concluded some extreme ideas and generalizations. I feel like I got sucked into some of the criticism, and doubted what I know to be true about these men. ”

    Some of us have vast experience. We see the same pattern of dots. Some of us have seen them over a long span of years. Actually the patterns are much alike so we recognize them. What is confusing many times is that very nice people can be teaching this authoritarianism. So it can be confusing to cut through the smoke.

    “I came here for a neutral place to discuss ideas, but instead, I presented things only as I saw them, and then also left little to no room for my ideas to be wrong. I’m not right about everything. Like Wade Burleson has said, I may be very well deceived myself. ”

    The worst thing we can do is discount our experiences. In fact, that is a teaching very popular right now that tells people not to trust themselves. The worst thing people then do is ignore their “gut”. How does a pastor/elder know if the HOly Spirit is prompting you to check something out more? They don’t. But they sure want folks to “discount” their feelings, experiences. It is a dangerous game.

    “I am not in agreement with some things at my church, and it is true that I have not felt a place to openly discuss them with any validation. However, I sincerely do love these brothers in Christ, and I have hurt them just as I feel they have hurt me.”

    What you could be doing is helping them, actually. And helping others not get mixed up in an authoritarian church. It is about Jesus. Not them. Never forget that.

    “We are all the church, the body of Christ, and Jesus prayed to the Father that we would all be one. We must love each other. Love is a very complicated thing, as we all know that, but in the bottom of my heart, I truly see that I am guilty of unloving behavior, just as I feel all of involved are. We all need to learn from this experience, and I am remaining hopeful that we all will.”

    Funny, I did not think your behavior here is unloving at all. I think you were seeking out answers. You recognized some of their behavior might not be appropriate. The one thing they are concerned about is image so it is important to them to keep any dissent private. It is sad. It is not of Christ.

    Be careful about false notions of “unity”. It is a big topic right now because so many churches are being torn apart by this movement. If they can get people to believe that unity at any cost to themselves is godly, they can control people longer. “Unity” is a big buzz word now all over the place. Beware.

    “My family is resigning from membership, and we are going to distance ourselves from the church. Regardless of who is right, or who is wrong, or if that in fact is irrelevant, we are not helping each other follow Jesus. For whatever reason, admittedly knowing I have my own “baggage”, I am not in unity with the leadership. This is creating a bad atmosphere in our hearts, and it is tainting everything.”

    No, it is cleansing. We help each other follow Christ by recognizing problems and dealing with them. Not sweeping them under the rug to help others save face so they can lord it over others.

    “I want to publicly say that I do not support the presumptions many of you have made about the character of these men, and I apologize for my role in that. I appreciate that this site, and all of you, want us to have a safe place to discuss our ideas. I do not in any way diminish that. I yearn for that. But, I went too far, and I feel that some of you did also. I am just as guilty of “measuring fruit” as I feel the faulty model of discipleship does.”

    You did not go too far at all. I am sorry you think that now and not sure what prompted this. I read your comments. You were seriously seeking understanding about what you were taught and what you disagreed with. I am glad you are leaving. I pray you find a place to have freedom in Christ and are not beholden to man.

  31. Heather wrote:

    I just don’t think that this view of “submission to elders” covers comments on a blog. So when I see “we loooooove you” accompanied by apparent “don’t talk about us”, I realise that the “Subtle Signs of Spiritual Abuse” are not really so subtle.

    Heather, that view of submitting to elders is a gross mischaracterization of scripture from that church (and many others!). Elders would be the first ones fed to the lions or nursing plague victims. Not someone you “follow” and “obey”. They have it backwards. That sort of submission is reserved for King Jesus. Not a mere human.

  32. @ Anon 1:Thank you “Anon 1”. My regrets were that I pushed the leaders into a defensive stance. I’m a very passionate person, and inevitably my emotions smudge the clear convictions that I want to communicate. I don’t blame them for disregarding my concerns. I wish I felt comfortable discussing opposing ideas with them face to face. To me, in my experience, it always felt as though they would listen to me just enough to show me why I was wrong. But, I understand, because how could I be right if all these christian celebrity leaders were in unity? Who am I to think that I know any better than those guys?

    I haven’t written books like all these people leading these conferences. I’m not even close to having those kinds of persuasive communication skills. But, as much as I have been edified by many things I’ve read in books, I don’t trust any human who thinks they have any greater ability to listen to Holy Spirit than anyone else. If these people really believe God is revealing stuff to them, then why do they sell it? Why do pastors travel all over the world to be trained by humans about God? And why do they think God entrusts another human to take care of His child? There is preaching of “Jesus is enough”, but in practice it doesn’t seem to be quite so.

    I am comforted knowing that Holy Spirit testifies to my spirit that I am a child of God. I cry out “Abba Father” to the One who knows me fully. I am a child of God, and co-heir with Christ. Jesus Christ is the Shepherd and Overseer of my soul. He loves me, in spite of me, He loves me.

    I trust God that He will lead all of us out of this fog. Others are already contacting me and telling me of this happening, even in the most remarkable ways. A precious brother told me of not being able to sleep or eat, and of Holy Spirit revealing to him that I am indeed following God’s will. That was such a beautiful thing, but I am not expecting that. I am looking only at Jesus, and letting Him cleanse my heart of my own sin. Only Jesus is responsible for His church, and I dare not interfere.

  33. Erik

    You find those who looooooove all things Driscoll using his forms. If you are interested in how Mars Hill handles discipline, look no further than the following three links. You will be glad to be far away from any churches which emulate this flawed system and its kooky leaders.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/01/25/mark-driscolls-mars-hill-a-tutorial-on-spiritual-abuse/

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/02/03/another-mars-hill-testimony-one-more-reason-to-beware-of-covenants/

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/01/30/fired-mars-hill-elder-breaks-his-silence/