We (the church of Wells) have been called “ugly, aggressive, confrontational, hateful, arrogant, legalistic, reckless, belligerent, prejudiced, infanticidal, isolationistic, hoop jumping, satanic, scripture twisting, family destroying, brainwashing, evil predators; used by the devil as a cultic trap and stronghold of deception and lies; who speak CRAP and GARBAGE.”
Earlier this summer we received some correspondence about a religious group in Texas that has come under fire. It is called the Church of Wells. Just this week we decided to investigate this ministry and have become quite concerned.
Last summer a tragedy occurred within this congregation that attracted media scrutiny. According to a news report by KLTV:
"Deputies with the Cherokee County Sheriff's Office are investigating the death of a three-day-old infant whose parents waited 15 hours after her death to call 911.
According to Capt. John Raffield, the sheriff's office received a call at 4 a.m. Sunday in reference to the death of a three-day-old infant. The caller said the baby was born on May 23 and died around 1 p.m. on Saturday. The caller said they had been praying over the baby over the previous 15 hours before calling 911."
The ABC news affiliate KTRE published this story about the tragic event last summer:
Baby's death draws attention to Wells religious group
Earlier this year the infant's father, Daniel Pursley, published a lengthy testimony entitled His Road Is Straight and Narrow. Toward the end of his testimony (pages 42-43) he writes about the death of baby Faith. Here is that excerpt:
XVIII. Faith Shalom Pursley
On May 23, 2012 my sweet baby Faith was born into my hands. She was a beautiful baby girl,8.6 lbs and 19.5 inches long. She looked just like our other children when they were babies,seemingly healthy with a full head of black hair. Sadly, she died three days later with what the autopsy deemed to be pulmonary valve stenosis, which is considered to be a rare disorder that occurs when the unborn baby is developing. Without us realizing what was going on inside her little body, one of her heart valves closed in on her, causing her to slip away from us in a matter of only a few minutes. I was holding her in my hands and tried to revive her, but there was nothing I could do to keep her here. We do believe that she went to be with the Lord and soon we will see her again. It was hard to believe that she was really gone, but we knew that there had been those who had “received their dead raised to life again ” by faith not only in biblical history but also in extra-biblical church history; and that if God so desired, He could hear our prayers and raise her from the dead as well. So we called on the elders of our church to pray, as we sought the Lord with prayer and fasting as a corporate body. What transpired over the next twelve plus hours became the center of controversy for the small town of Wells, TX and beyond.
The media quickly became involved and wrote articles and produced news reports, not only about baby Faith, but also about our church here in Wells. Shortly after the news reports were out, Karen Dean did the unthinkable: she posted them on her Facebook wall stirring up everyone to watch and read in a most hurtful manner. Based on her comments, it was reasonable to think that she was trying to shame and vilify us that she might continue her false message that we are a cult – while she justifies her long standing sin against us and the Lord.
According to the opening pages of this testimony, Karen Dean is Daniel Pursley's mother-in-law. You may want to consider skimming what Pursley has written to gain a better understanding of what this religious group believes from Pursley's perspective.
Then last week the Church at Wells became the focus of more media scrutiny when a daughter from an Arkansas family went missing. A week after she disappeared she phoned her worried parents to inform them that she was O.K. and staying with those associated with the Church at Wells. Here is how the local media reported the story:
You can read the story that accompanies the video here. According to the news media, Catherine Grove got involved in the Church at Wells in early July.
The church has published the following statement on its website (see below).
The Catherine Grove Controversy
These accusations are disturbing to us all, but especially to those of us who are a part of the Church of Wells. As for me, personally, they have given me bodily weakness and sickness because they are so abominable to my soul… but my trouble is not so much for my name, but for Christ, who we confess and do represent. We have been made to look like we are telling people to cover their ears (literally) and not listen to anyone but “the elders.” That is absolutely absurd! We have been made to look as though we are brutally brainwashing our people, so that from the report (Catherine as an example) they are turned into mindless robots under our oppression and rule. We have been made to look like lunatics! And consequentially, we have been treated like animals by complete strangers everywhere!
In addition, Grove sent CBS 19 the following statement:
I, Catherine Grove, am simply seeking the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a wretched sinner and I came here to Wells, TX to talk and listen to these Christians so that they could simply help me find the Lord. They are teaching me what the Bible says. There is no other reason why I am here. These people are full of integrity and are doing no wrong. These people believe and obey every word in the Bible. They are completely innocent of the wrongdoing falsely accused of them. I have actually never met anyone so pure and innocent as them. They have provided for me very well, cooking many meals for me. All I want to do is repent of sin and seek the Lord until I find Him. My parents are worried about me and I understand that, but they should be more worried about drawing me away from the Lord, by teaching something that is not in the Bible. I am not born again, and I don't think my parents are either. These people are not keeping me here against my will. They are not brainwashing me as they have been accused of. They are telling me what the Bible says."
In all likelihood, these two stories provide just a glimpse into this religious group, and they certainly appear to be red flags; however, those involved in the Church of Wells believe that theirs is the 'true church'. Where have we seen this before?
We are left wondering about the continuum of religious organizations. Perhaps the broader question that needs to be asked is how does a 'Christian' group go from being healthy to being manipulative/controlling to being a whacked organization? What are the signs that a decent ministry is starting to get weird?
For some clues, we highly recommend a post we published several years ago that highlights Ronald Enroth's excellent book Churches That Abuse. Here are the traits of abusive ministries that Enroth identifies (see if you recognize any of them with regard to the Church of Wells):
1. Control-oriented style of leadership
2. Spiritual elitism
3. Manipulation of members
4. Perceived persecution
5. Lifestyle rigidity
6. Suppression of dissent
7. Harsh discipline of members
8. Denunciation of other churches
9. Painful exit process
Having read some of the information on the church website and the testimony of Daniel Pursley, a number of these traits seem applicable to the Church of Wells. How about other churches? Where do they fall on the continuum? Do you know of any 'normal' churches that have become controlling, particularly when members start questioning the leadership? These are indeed interesting (and trying) times in Christendom.
Lydia's Corner: Ezra 7:1-8:20 1 Corinthians 4:1-21 Psalm 30:1-12 Proverbs 20:28-30
Hmmm…my former church fits 8 of those 9 traits. Sigh.
I think it’s a lot more prevalent than people might think. They generally don’t advertise and they know the code words to use to appear normal-ish.
The following quote by the young woman is extremely telling of their doctrine, mindset and yes, brainwashing…
She states she is seeking the Lord and they are teaching her how, but she’s not born again and she doesn’t think her parents are. This is a big deal. When you are born again, you know it. What are they teaching her that she believes she’s not and needs their ‘teaching’ to learn howe?!?! DANGER!
So I read Mr. Pursley’s testimony. Too many red flags and way too much proof-texting. I never read anything about Jesus’s love just a lot of negatives and how Pursley feels like a victim and his motner-in-law is going to hell and spreading lies. The narcissism alone is austounding but it isn’t.
All I got was that he wasn’t feeling Christian emough and others around him weren’t Christian enough so he went looking (with help from a friend) and found legalism. Also known as fundamentalist. With an extra-large side of mental. It is a cult and I worry about his family and this woman from Ark. They’ve already drunk the Kool-aid.
You don’t have to have wildly whacky theology to be a cult, but I think that there are certain theologies that lean that way much quicker than others:
*a preoccupation with sin (rather than freedom and forgiveness)
*hangups about needing to get one’s doctrine exactly “right”
* a leaning towards the need to display specific signs of repentance (or need to do penance in some form
* usually some sort of divisions between people — gender roles, leadership roles, whatever
* some idea that newcomers need to undergo extensive instruction before they truly belong
I’m sure there are more that other people can think of, but it does seem tome that churches whose theologies lean more towards forgiveness and joy and growing at your own pace are less inclined to tip over into the cultic and controlling
hmm.. Looking at the picture on the front page of the Wells web site, I didn’t see one white-haired elderly person. Not a good sign imo. One of the earmarks of any type of abuse is separation from family and friends.
@ Victorious: Great point!
I applaud Catherine Grove's parents for camping out near their daughter. Let's keep them and their daughter in our prayers.
Lynne T wrote:
And then telling everyone else that they are “barely Christians?”
Reading through some of their beliefs, noticed they are KJV only and promote the writings of A W Pink. Jake Gardner appears to be head honcho. He got some press by conducting the funeral service of a serial killer out of Alaska.
http://www.ktre.com/story/20330716/an-inside-look-into-the-funeral-of-serial-killer-israel-keyes
Victorious wrote:
Yes. After I joined my former church (cult), they became my new family. My biological family, who, by the way, were very concerned about my new lifestyle and the control my ministers exerted in my life, were viewed with suspicion and condescension. Any time a person is estranged from their family to participate in a new “church” it’s a red flag that it’s a cult or TACO.
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Amen! No wonder they go after the young, unsuspecting, and vulnerable.
@ Victorious:
Interesting thought. I agree, a church with elderly people feels much safer to me but I can never quite figure out why I feel this way. I am currently attending a church where about 1/3 or 1/2 of the congregation is elderly people, and it feels so… comforting. So many kind, twinkling eyes and hearty handshakes. And wise teaching. This church also chased off a large crowd of aggressive Calvinistas a few years ago that tried to take over (from what I’ve gathered, at least). I feel very, very safe here.
Before this church, I was attending a Reformed church that was very Calvinist and very Patriarchal. Felt like I lost myself there… the loneliness I experienced in that environment was almost unbearable. Incidentally, that church had only one elderly couple. And though it was certainly not required to cut off family members, I treated my parents with uncalled-for disrespect for their beliefs while I was in that system. 🙁 Now we are very close again, and we go to the same church. I feel so thankful for my wonderful parents and for a God who heals relationships.
Anyway, all that to say that maybe there IS something to an abundance of members with graying hair…
I feel very sorry for the little baby girl that needlessly died. I am sure the parents are suffering from guilt. If not they will someday, when they come to their senses and leave this whacky church. I guess it’s the price we pay for religious freedom.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
I have to agree, Jeanette. The answer to being born again/ saved? Simply sincerely ask God to do it. The mere fact that she wants to be born again, and want to follow God so much that she will even leave everything behind for it, mean that any Christian would have told her to just ask – Jesus will not turn away those who come to him!
I have had the opportunity to meet some of these members personally and hear from their mouths what they believe. I do not think they have intentionally become a cult. I feel like they formed this group with good conscious and a true desire to draw closer to God. However, somewhere they fell off the path and did, in my opinion, became a group with very “cult-like” tendencies. They are “nice” people, but they tend to dwell on the sin that everyone has in their lives, and never truly give someone the truth which is that we are all able to be saved by faith through Jesus Christ. And luckily, God gives us forgiveness and salvation GLADLY and freely.
@ Victorious:
In my experience this describes most non-denominational churches, large or small, and almost all church plants. I agree it’s not a good sign. Thus part of why I attend a mainline church.
Lynne T wrote:
Note that the first three are also characteristic of the Puritans, and the first two (especially the second) of Calvinistas/Truly Reformed.
Hester wrote:
Yes…seniors have learned some things along with way that could be of value to younger believers. The absence of them in congregations is, in itself, a message that raise a red flag to those considering a church.
Lin wrote:
Not only in reading but in writing. From the website, “…being seized therewith because of the foul and untrue reports…”
That young pastor seems very convinced of himself. If they are so “correct” why won’t they let the girl go see her parents?
My dividing line between real and fake is, if people believe they are saved, they should be unafraid of the world, it holds no power over them. If people need to hide out from the big, bad world, then I would first question their salvation (or their teacher’s salvation, who make them fear the world).
This church and CJ’s churches definitely fall into the fake salvation/teaching category.
What stands out for me is this: “They are telling me what the Bible says.” Can she not read it for herself? I’m sure they’re telling her what they want her to think the Bible says but doesn’t say.
Forgiven wrote:
Thank you for your insights about this group. It adds much to the discussion. It just goes to show how important it is to focus on Jesus Christ and not legalism. I'm praying for everyone involved, either directly or indirectly.
@ Shannon H.:
Hmmm… Martin Luther definitely comes to mind. Wasn't this the reason he ran into so much opposition from Pope Leo and his underlings? They refused to believe that the common people could interpret the Bible for themselves.
Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it…
@ Deb: as a survivor of *five* groups that began with “good intentions,” I can say this – the “good intentions” fell by the wayside VERY fast.
Val wrote:
I wouldn’t go into the “Question their Salvation”, because that way lies One-Upmanship and Madness. More accurate to say they got their signals crossed and some mistaken/bad teaching along the way.
Let’s face it, in the Evangelical Circus hiding out from the Big Bad World surrounded by “Just like pop culture, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!” Christianese consolation prizes is VERY popular. Hide in that little box in the church basement, keep your noses squeaky-clean to pass God’s Great White Throne Litmus Test, and go out of the box into the Big Bad World only for quickie drive-by prosletyzing sallies.
@ numo: In *every* single case.
all of these groups had people with serious problems (patterns of sexual abusiveness, financial abuse of members) get into the drivers’ seat. And what happened then was pretty much a slaughter of the sheep.
I’m not sure how I’ve survived with faith reasonably intact (though certainly, my beliefs have changed a good deal over the years). I could have been the young girl that you quoted in the post.
Dave A A wrote:
………………………
Perhaps that’s another sign of strict sectarianism, cultic tendencies taking hold of a group. An emphasis of puritanical expression emerges.
numo wrote:
Same with my former church, numo. Ditto to the sexual and financial abuse. It seems that any hierarchical, control-oriented church is destined to derail from “good intentions.” I’ve learned through very similar painful experiences never to entrust my faith to any man.
I think we have done a disservice by having a word like “cult” and identifying it with Koresh, Jim Jones, etc, because “those” groups are easy to spot (although if you ask the people who joined and stayed, I’m sure they are just as normal as you and me, but were blinded).
The reality is there are many “churches” under “pastors” which have all the markings of “normal,” but aren’t. Those are the ones that I am mostly concerned about. They go under the radar of many church leaders: my former church, SGM, etc. CJ Mahaney gets to go on like life is “normal,” my pastor gets to hold conferences with well-known street evangelists, write a foreward for a book, schmooze with popular-named people just because he has the write look, doctrinal beliefs, etc, yet who cares that he went against scripture and sued, has spiritually abused scores of people. I could go on and on and on about CJ, too.
But the reality is that those people who have been victims of pseudo churches/pastors are spiritually abused just as much as those belonging to a cult. Except there is a difference. Once a cult is labeled a cult, then the abused can at least say, “see, it really was a cult.” Where people connected with SGM-type high-controlling abusive churches are still left sometimes doubting themselves when they see key church leaders defend the abusive church leader. This kind of stuff is crazy making. No wonder so many leave church altogether.
Julie Anne wrote:
I’ve said this before, but that started as an artifact of Christian Cult Watch groups defining “Cult(TM)” entirely by theology and doctrine, not repeat not by abusive/controlling/”cult-like” behavior towards its people. (Like the Calvinista obsession with Correct Doctrine/Ideology.)
Happened all the time back in the Seventies. While the Cult-Sniffers were parsing theology letter by letter and pronouncing abusive churches “Clean”, these churches were still abusing their people and waving their Theologically-Clean bill of health as an additional weapon — “Proof We’re Not A Cult(TM)”.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
What gets me is how all these non-denom hierarchic control-oriented abusive churches point righteous fingers at hierarchic “Romish Popery(TM)”.
Deb wrote:
And yet when common people free thinkers like myself and others read the Bible today and no longer come up with the conclusions of Luther & the Reformers, their followers of today still get their undies in a dither. Will people of faith ever learn to live and let live? Will we ever learn to peacefully coexist with those who don’t believe as we do?
Holy cow, when I got to churches, all I see are white haired people.
As a middle aged, never married lady (on the youngish end of the middle aged spectrum), I would be ever so delighted to go to a church cram packed with single middle aged guys, especially if they are good lookin’.
All I come across are people ages 60 and up with white hair. (I go to Baptist churches whenever I have attended.) I’m usually one of the few people with dark hair in attendance.
Muff Potter wrote:
You know those coexist bumper stickers? Maybe there needs to be one for Christian denominations. 😉
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Independent Fundamentalist Baptists (IFB), especially the AV 1611 Bible version onlyists, are very much like this, but I think they are more concerned with purity and separation from worldliness, than they are motivated by fear of the world.
(Though maybe it does come from fear, too, but it comes across to me as they are just hyper- religious and into rules.)
IFBs are very opposed to hanging out with or fellowshipping with anyone who does not share their religious views to a “T,” and they rant and rail against television, movies, and music.
IFBs have very strict ideas about hair style, hair length, and they believe women shouldn’t wear pants, and some IFB churches are against women wearing open toed shoes.
IFBs remind me of a red neck version of the Pharisees from Jesus’ day.
“Group Dopamine Dust-up, Perhaps? ”
hmmm…
A fifteen hour delay (and the circumstances involved) in calling 911 (the local authorities) upon the death of a child due to natural causes merits national tv coverage, and suspicion of cult religious involvement, possibly even State and Federal investigations as well…
Well I’ll be,
(Re-wind)
No national media coverage, no serious authorities involvement (at the time) when multiple children are ALLEGEDLY abused in a SGM Christian church in Maryland?
What?
SGM displayed (even for the casual on-looker) cult-like characteristics?
Clues? …elementary my Dear, Wartburg.
…recognizing cult-like tendencies; – any of them with regard to Sovereign Grace Ministries?
hmmm…
ALLEGEDLY, (da list is long…)
Demonstrating a control-oriented style of leadership; practicing spiritual elitism; known for situations where church members were being manipulated; known for an environment where church authorities reduced outside legitimate criticism as perceived persecution; known for practicing lifestyle rigidity to the point where a distrust of outside authorities was fostered; where ‘suppression of dissent’ became a campaign to stamp out all so-called ‘slander’; shunning of errant members; and a church identified as having a very, very painful exit process.
Groupthink at it’s finest?
Well, I do declare…
(and ‘they’ got away with this type of behavior for an extended period of time?!?)
“Duck or Grouse?” ***
hmmm….
Just ask the victims…
Skreeeeeeeeeeeetch! Bump!
Crash!
they ALLEGEDLY did…
The proverbial SGM church baby “Hope” went out with the proverbial bath water and N-o-b-o-d-y really cared.
A twenty year plus delay?
“do, do, doo-do…do, do, doo-do…”
(sadface)
S“㋡”py
___
*** Synonyms of the word ‘Grouse’:
beef, bellyache, bitch, bleat, carp, caterwaul, crab, croak, fuss, gripe, grizzle, grouch, complain, growl, grumble, grump, holler, inveigh, keen, kick, kvetch, maunder [chiefly British], moan, murmur, mutter, nag, repine, scream, squawk, squeal, wail, whimper, whine, whinge [British], yammer, yawp (or yaup), yowl… [ref: Random House & Webster’s College Dictionaries]
*** Related words of the word ‘Grouse’:
object (to), protest, quarrel (with); cavil, quibble; fret, stew, worry; blubber, cry, sob; bemoan, bewail, deplore, lament… [ref: Random House & Webster’s College Dictionaries]
Choose your bruise? The SGM children there didn’t have a choice… 🙁
—
Daisy wrote:
A new church is just starting up in my town. Part of their add reads: “we cater to the younger crowd but all are welcome to attend. ”
This gray haired lady ( over sixty) is not likely to check the new church out. 😉
Ever notice how some of these outfits alleged to be abusive tend to make pronouncements that go on and on and on with long, drawn out, missives to support their positions? It seems a common feature among almost every group that TWW has turned the spotlight on over the past year.
Such long, droning pronouncements should be added to the list of “red flags” to look for when identifying overbearing churches or cults. A dead giveaway, in fact (remniscent of hours-long speeches by tin-pot dictators, like Mohammar Khadaffi, Stalin, Driscoll, and others).
Just take a look at this diatribe on the first page of the Church of Wells website: http://www.thechurchofwells.com.
What a load!
@ Looking for You:
I visited a church not too long ago that seemed to have a good number of elderly people and I got the same sense of comfort. It was a tiny church, not well attended, and I don’t know much about it. But I do know what you mean. The last church we were in had a good sized population of older folks too and that was one of my favorite things about it. They were some of the warmest and kindest folks I knew. Then that church got some new guy in who I’ve heard from two different sources “hates old people.” I think that is a tragedy.
@ Retha Faurie:
I was thinking that same thing, Retha. What’s the difficulty here? Why is this girl not, or being told she’s not, born again?
Julie Anne wrote:
That’s a really good point.
Shannon H. wrote:
I would definitely put one on my car! 🙂
Lin wrote:
In “An Open Response to Steve Smith”, Sean Morris reassures Steve that Wells elders do have “outside input” in biblical interpretation. This includes Edwards, Spurgeon, Whitefield, Wesley, Bunyan, etc, but, “because we are in the latter days, most works we hold in high regard are from men who lived in other centuries.”
Steve has several applicable articles, including this: http://libertyforcaptives.com/2012/06/04/the-death-of-faith/
Several family members of Wells converts have comments.
In baby Faith’s memorial sermon, Morris said, “Sadly, we did not have faith to see the child healed.”
I’ll indulge in one bit of commentary, which perhaps Morris and Co will find devilishly slanderous. Could it be that one stream leading to such horrible sadness is the attempt to have “New Testament” churches patterned after or or having the appearance of Jesus and the Apostles, while we lack the Holy Spirit power they had? So we try to work ourselves up to sufficient faith, or repentance, or intensity of experience. And fail.
@ Dave A A:
Thanks for the link, have bookmarked it for further reading. Good stuff there.
Speaking of King James English,Steve gives some insight into why that is done.
http://libertyforcaptives.com/2013/08/06/whelp-there-it-is-15-signs-of-false-humility/
FYI,
“As is the case with CHURCHES THAT ABUSE, this book, RECOVERING FROM CHURCHES THAT ABUSE, has now been OUT OF PRINT for a number of years as well.”
( Are you sure you want to build your church polity/doctrine on books that are Out Of Print?)
Gee, I’m 64 and I just joined a church designed for young people. I admire them tremendously for reaching out to a group unlikely to attend the previous generation’s church. While churches full of older people MIGHT have wisdom, old age doesn’t guarantee that. They MIGHT just have people who are inflexible and stagnant in their faith.
@ Retha Faurie:
“The answer to being born again/ saved? Simply sincerely ask God to do it. The mere fact that she wants to be born again, and want to follow God so much that she will even leave everything behind for it, mean that any Christian would have told her to just ask – Jesus will not turn away those who come to him!”
+++++++++++++
…or not even really ask. just say, “‘tsup, God”
I have a friend who has known the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit for decades. He never “asked Jesus into his heart” or asked to be “born again”. He just sort of leaned in, and leaned a little closer. In a community of other faith-filled people. And got to know God over all these years.
I really don’t think God is as fussy as we sometimes make him out to be.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
HUG – I’ve said it before too. So you’re doubly correct.
TW wrote:
Agree. I hope there are no more.
Kathy wrote:
…….,……………………………
It’s true some churches are over loaded with oldsters who won’t accommodate a younger congregation. Often the issues the gray set objects to are changes to: music, dress and the style of worship service.
What I view as unhealthy, is the deliberate exclusion of parts of the body of Christ. That can be the exclusion of women, young people, old people, single people etc. The body of Christ is healthy when all participate. When there are missing members of whole body, it can’t be healthy.
This church in Wells, has pretty much stated the previous generation (the older believers) have perverted the faith, basically asserting the notion, only their young group can lead the way.
@ numo:
So numo, how did the people with serious problem get themselves into the drivers’ seat? Was there any sort of pattern that you could find?
And yes, indeed, it is amazing that you are still a believer. So cool! I think it shows, more than anything that there is a great and loving God after all, because you could find Him/Her even through all that.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I agree with you completely. It seems to me that anytime an ideology is more important than the lives of the people, sooner or later, it becomes abusive in those people’s lives.
That Christians were using only wrong ideology (theology) to determine whether a group was a cult shows that they too were caught in the same web that the cults were, just milder. I wonder if this is partly why we have such a plethora of cult-like churches these days.
It might, at bottom, come from giving sole priority to proper teaching/interpretation of scripture rather than learning how to live in love with God, ourselves, each other. I don’t like it that our seminarians emerge stuffed-full of doctrines and only a smidge of knowledge on what it means to live as a Christian servant for the community.
This goes, also, to a few of the doctrines that some Calvinists hold about sovereignty, that are destructive in the lives of the very people who are need an accurate view of God’s relationship to evil.
elastigirl wrote:
…or not even really ask. just say, “‘tsup, God”
…
I really don’t think God is as fussy as we sometimes make him out to be.
Yes. I got saved before knowing the evangelistic prayer formula, too.
The point is …
when someone say: “I want to be saved” I will tell him: “Ask Jesus to save you.”
When someone say: “I want to become a child of God” I’ll tell her: “Ask God to make you his child.”
When someone say: I want my sins forgiven” my words will be: “Ask God to forgive you.”
It is not about a formula, it is about a relationship: They can take their heart to God and lean closer to Jesus. What I tell them is not a formula either, but to ask God what they want.
Seneca wrote:
Who needs to buy CHURCHES THAT ABUSE when the author has made it available FOR FREE? Link
I want to encourage all of our readers to use this incredible resource. Thank you Ronald Enroth for helping so many who have been hurt.
I know this is going to sound really petty, but I was immediately put off by the pastor when I heard the way he talks. Is this the new “sound style” for the hip pastors? He sounds too polished and fake to me. I’ve heard a few hipster pastors (we’re full of them in Portland, OR) that that sound cool and smooth, but when you really listen to their words, their doctrine creates a heavy burden.
@ Retha Faurie:
Yes, just being direct and communicating as you would with anyone who speaks your language. God is not alien.
We are in agreement here.
Some fascinating discussion/speculation, especially by Polaris on this forum: http://tinyurl.com/k3g6kym
Kathy wrote:
There is no reason to think that “inflexible” is necessarily either good or bad, or that “flexible” is necessarily good or bad. For example, if you have cancer you need an oncologist who is inflexibly committed to a scientific medical approach to your disease, not some practitioner who is flexibly impressed with alternative claimed cures for your disease. Stagnant calls to mind a dwindling pond with scum on top and old tires on the bottom, but might be erroneously applied to a person or church who holds relentlessly and unchangingly to the once-delivered faith.
Neither old nor young as it applies to people or as it applies to ideas indicates much when it comes to truth, value or usefulness. Admittedly, my background is in science, not literature or religion or whatever. So let me express myself in terms that I understand. Most of what we used to think in science has been shown to be either false or incomplete, and has been either laid aside or surpassed by further knowledge. At the same time, “the latest research shows” is mostly fun for journalists. Science is more interested in what further research either confirms or disproves than in what is the latest and unsubstantiated finding. Something like this hold true in other areas of life, including religion.
Let us not throw out the old nor discredit the most recent in anything, including church practice, until we have amply time and evidence to do so without having to come back a little later with a great “oops” for acting precipitously.
@ Nancy: Age is no indictor of flexibility. I have met some guys in their 20s who are amongst the most inflexible people I have ever met. I even know of one guy, 31, who had an absolute hissy when he was away and a 29 year old woman took his place leading the group. You would think he thought the wrath of God was going to fall on his Bible study members.
@ Patrice: it all started with the jesus Movement and the charismatic renewal – people trying to re-do the church.
A takeover by seemingly charming and wise but absolutely screwed-up people is incredibly easy in cases like that.
@ numo: add “discipleship movement” and it’s the proverbial perfect storm.
The 70s brought a lot of people *to* church, but they also brought a tremendous amount of innately messed-up belief and practice.
Dave A A wrote:
This from Polaris is priceless:
Women:
Must be obedient and submissive to husbands in all things.
Expected to be solemn and suppress laughter, eyes cast downward.
“Modesty” translated to poor grooming and shabby clothing. A generally disheveled appearance. Not allowed to make themselves attractive in appearance. Being attractive is “immodest” and “prideful” and against scripture.
Responsible for the collective of children and the majority are pregnant at any given time.
Men:
Well-groomed and conventional clothing.
Always carry a backpack, even in church. Kind of amusing, as if they are ready to run at any time.
Very worldly. They travel, they all have computers, iPhones and the applications that go with them. They upload and download. They have Facebook and Instagram accounts.
Look and act like any other American man, except for the 17th-century Early Modern English affectation.
Special note to young Wellders (I KNOW you scour the internet looking for defamations about you): I verily cannot vouchsafe the veracity of the aforementioned slanderous assertions. Prithee bring rebuke from your bowels of intense love as required for my enlightenment.
I got Enroth’s book and read it after your last post about his work. I would add one item to his list: covering up current or past errors (and not just theological or doctrinal ones).
I know of more than one church that has very orthodox Christian doctrine and theology, and is quite conservative (a lot more than I am), but in which at least five of Enroth’s traits are markedly present. Their presence is more subtle than in some of the obvious extreme groups, maybe even hidden from the casual observer, but it is definitely there. If you push or ask the wrong questions or doubt, you will see these traits come out in full force. I wouldn’t go near those churches.
Cult-like behavior always isolates a group or organization, protects it, and covers for its failings. All of the traits Enroth cites feed this dynamic in some way. Churches can get all their doctrine right and still do this. They can get all their doctrine right and still not look much like Jesus.
Lin wrote:
“Oh, I was so much older then;
I’m younger than that now…”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
……………………..
Yes. The Byrd’s sang it well.
@ John:
Thanks for this comment. I plan to discuss this next week and will probably include your remarks. 🙂
Musical Orthodoxy: “Moral Madness In Da Mak’in…?”
hmmm….
…healing was the hallmark of the furtherance of the Gospel in the cradle of Christianity.
What?
…maybe not raising da ‘dead’,
-snicker-
…but w-h-e-r-e ever the New Testament Gospel went in the first century of Christianity, healing was a distinct effervescent characteristic when the presentation of the Gospel went forth.
So was the removal of demonic influence(s).
huh?
Now a dayz… poof!
No healing.
No initial manifestation of the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit. (tongs, prophecy)
Demons don’t get lost.
Nothing. Nada. Zippo…
Dead space.
Sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss…
Now a dayz Christianity is reduced to a professional 501c ‘ordained’ pastor, preacher, minister, priest, (pick-a-title) smack’in you with a Bible, and a boring you wit a thirty ta forty minute sermon, (you could watch on the internet wit popcorn & an Izzy beverage -grin-)
…body of Christ?, where ‘everyone!’… has a place, and a function?
Excuse me?
Now it’s Sit Down, N’ Shut Up,
and ya… REALLY,
Gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta…
Whew!
…gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta, gotta…
da, dooooooo, what ‘they’ say.
Go fi$h?
Skreeeeeeeeeeetch! Bump!
Crash!
Ya $ure dayz gotzs da ‘right’ religion?
Could have fool’d me.
…touch youze lit’l nose, and pray after me…
(grin)
hahahahahahahahaha
“…These signs will accompany those who ‘have believed’: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” ~ Jesus
What!?!
Jesus was only kidding?
hmmm…
Jerusalem, 33AD :
“Also the people from…the vicinity…were coming together, bringing people who were sick or afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all being healed.” ~Acts 5:16, NASB95
Unto you – God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to ‘bless you’, in turning away every one, from their iniquities.
Quack! Quack!
There is healing in His wings!
Hurray!
S“㋡”py
—
Dave A A wrote:
Oooh ho ho ho… 😆
That describes was me when I had clinical depression, low self esteem, and social anxiety from youth and until my late 30s.
How (sadly) funny that they see the symptoms of depression (and other hellish mental health problems and other issues) as being biblical, or as desirable traits in a woman.
I spent a lot of time for years praying to be healed of that stuff, seeing psychiatrists, and taking medications to be rid of it.
I’ve never been married, and your summarization of their list says women should be submissive to husbands in all things, eyes downcast, etc.
So are never-married women allowed to gaze into men’s eyes with their group? If so, why is there a different set of rules for married women than there are for sinle women?
As I said on Julie Anne’s blog a few days ago, and I can’t quite explain it, maybe someone smarter than myself can look into this, there seems to be a vulnerability, a weak spot, in gender role teachings when they can (or are) only be applied to married women, and not single women.
@ dee:
” I even know of one guy, 31, who had an absolute hissy when he was away and a 29 year old woman took his place leading the group.”
+++++++++++++
he sounds extremely young in mind & soul and immature (the truth of which would come as an enormous surprise to him).
Still high on college idealism, I’d say.
@ Daisy:
To be clear, the list isn’t mine or based official Wells writings, but is the observations of a commenter on another site. But he/she seems to have studied them quite thoroughly. He/she also generalizes that single women are matched up and married off ASAP, neatly avoiding those “single women” difficulties. Again, I can’t state this as proven fact. Just gossip.
@ Dave A A:
Oh, well whatever the case, if a church’s views on gender cannot be equally applied to anyone in whatever relationship state (never married, divorced, widowed), they should consider there is something wonky with their gender views.
I don’t see a Christianity for married couples vs. a Christianity for single people, anymore than I see a Masculine Christianity vs a Feminine.
It appears the expectation is that all Christians are to copy Jesus, no matter their gender or marital status.
If a church’s views on how to live life for God or to meet God’s designs or plans or intent can only be done in marriage or only by the male gender, something is wrong.
Daisy wrote:
Rachel Held Evans say she got involved in verbal sparring with someone who defended gender roles, when she mentioned how some people’s circumstances make it hard for them to follow these roles. Her opponent said:
From here: http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/outliers
Lin wrote:
A lotta press. Overstated his own relationship and importance to Keyes, as well as the group’s. There was no relationship. He wasn’t the serial killer’s “pastor” and had never met him, in fact. Gardner wasn’t in Wells when Israel Keyes was. It was a publicity moment they milked for all it was worth. Makes me a little ill, really. Stunning pathological narcissism – a murdered teenager was nothing more than a prop on the group’s stage, and a supporting role to its leading man Jake Gardner.
We’re expected to believe that the group has some kind of exclusive insight into this serial killer. But the reality of Keyes’ relationship to the “Church of Wells” takes a bit of mental gymnastics: it was no different than the rest of the families. It was contentious and he challenged their doctrine. He didn’t pour out his spiritual pathos and reject God – he argued and got angry at his sister’s wedding when they preached at him. And then went off to have a cigarette and calm down. He was nothing more than the big brother from Alaska – just one more family relationship being terminated. Five Keyes women had just moved to Texas from Indiana to commit to these young men. The mother is the only older woman in the group, as far as anyone can know.
I don’t believe the Texas Boys can appreciate the horrific irony. That their standard script of condemnation delivered to him was actually true. They were indeed addressing an evil, dark, twisted reprobate soul already in hell. But they didn’t know it.
In spite of their claims of “gifts” of prophecy, spiritual clairvoyance, and a privileged dispensation to upload and process God, they missed it. No ‘spidey-sense’ tingling, no ‘bad guy’ alarm set off, no revelation. They “discerned” nothing when it was standing in front of ’em. The spiritual profile of this serial killer was no different to them, than any other family member. That, friends, is true proof of snake oil confidence men.
Second to the baby’s death, I believe the Keyes family to be the single greatest casualty of this cult. A family of ten lost six.
Shannon H. wrote:
EXACTLY.
Julie Anne wrote:
These groups were NOT easy to spot. Methodist Reverend Jim Jones led “normal” congregations in “normal-looking” churches for 26 years, starting with the Somerset Methodist Church in Indianapolis. He was well-connected and politically influential, buddies with the California governor. They had a special exclusive dorm at Santa Rosa Junior College and owned at least nine residential elder’s care homes, six foster care homes and a state-licensed 40-acre ranch for the developmentally disabled.
Stuff was always weird and there were people who called them out. But it got no notice until the mid-70s.
People’s Temple and Branch Davidians both embraced the same doctrine – rejecting worldly standards, dramatic life reform, living communally and separating from family and friends. ‘Shepard’s Rod’ taught that an elect group of 144,000 followers would form a truly reformed church and that it was a prerequisite for Christ’s return to earth. Decades of this, and at least 10 years for David Koresh to establish himself.
We don’t call them cults until after some catastrophic or news-worthy event occurs. It’s an easy identification retroactively, but we’re reluctant to be unfair or judge other people’s religious practices, so we simply don’t want to call it that. Since it always seems to be retroactive, we really just don’t know how to identify it before a calamitous event. We’re afraid of the word, even though it isn’t necessarily judgmental and harmful.
It simply describes behavior. A syndrome. A collection of traits. It is what it is. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, we should probably call it a duck. But no, we wait until it’s road kill and hold it by the neck for observation: “Oh, yeah. It’s a duck, alright.”
@ Gulag:
Hoping no one from your family is involved with this group. I am sorry to read of a whole family becoming disciples.
Off-topic, I know, but I think those just may have been the best roast potatoes I’ve ever made; which (if I may say so myself) is saying something. burp
Way to distract and interrupt, Nick. Minimize and trivialize. Good job.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Gulag wrote:
Even Jimmy Carter affirmed him at one time.
I saw a blog convo a while back on a pastors blog (cannot remember which one) where they were talking about “cults”. I was a bit surprised to see that most of the young seminary grads thought cult was STRICTLY about doctrine and not behavior. I think they are taught that way on purpose these days. Because so much of what they are being taught about being in control, the “visionary” for the church, etc, etc, would show up if they were taught the more modern definition for a cult as in thought reform, etc.
@ Gulag:
Gulag wrote:
Gulag,
If you are new to this blog, welcome! You might not know that Nick often shares little pieces of his life with us all. His other comments typically show that he is not one who distracts, interrupts, minimizes, or trivializes anything to do with the topic at hand. Sometimes a little levity or a roast potato can go a long way to remind us that the woes of the church are only part of our experiences and that there is more of life to enjoy.
Heather
@ Nick Bulbeck: We are lo carb at our house due to my husband’s diabetes. i would kill for some roast potatoes.
@ Deb: Imagine-a guy not trying to make a buck…
Heather – thankyou for your right hand of fellowship (so to speak) there – it means a lot.
Gus – I should have put my comment on the cookery thread, perhaps. We were partway through entertaining my parents to dinner, I came upstairs to research something for them and had half a minute to post here. So I was unaware that you had just posted a string of comments which suggests this covers something that matters to you, and I can understand your annoyance. My comment was not intended as a reply to yours, but I am sorry to give the impression that I was trivialising your input; that wasn’t my intention.
Heather makes an important point; there is great value in airing issues that others try to silence, but at the same time there is a limit to what we can directly solve on the blogsphere. Nevertheless, you too made some important points, especially (imho) the one about the ease with which cults can lurk behind a respectable facade.
@ Heather:
Okay, good to know. Thanks for the heads-up. I can roll with that. : )
New to comments, but not reading.
FYI-in the seamy darker side of the bloggery world, that’s a convention; a specific thing one does to signal others to ignore the speaker.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
The string of comments was ’cause I was late to the conversation, but thought it was still okay to participate. My bad.
Gulag wrote:
Gulag, no problem. 🙂 Yes, I have seen it done online and IRL. Which is why I knew I wasn’t going to leave Nick to defend himself against something he didn’t do. If you knew more of my story you’d know why that reallllllly matters to me! Good to meet you and keep commenting! Heather
Gulag wrote:
No, no, not your bad. Thank you so much for everything you shared. As Nick pointed out, what you said about cults hiding behind a respectable facade is an excellent point. My former church (cult) has had a number of influential supporters, which makes it very intimidating to speak out against their ill treatment of members.
Glad to have you on board.
(off topic)
Captain Picard recently got married.
‘Yes, married’: Sir Patrick Stewart tweets funny photo in ball pit as he announces he’s wed Sunny Ozell… and Gandalf officiated
@ dee:
I’m diabetic too, but I’m the happy kind (type 1). Potatoes are high-GI, of course, but they’re also about 90% water, and I find they respond pretty well to food insulin.
Though I think Type 1 is generally treated differently on our respective sides of the pond – we’re not put on low-carb diets. In Scotland the idea is to learn to balance grub intake with injected insulin, whereas I believe the idea in the US is to minimise the injected insulin requirement. I’ve been diabetic less than two years, though, and am either still “honeymooning” or else quite strongly insulin-sensitive. I also do a lot of aerobic exercise, which will undoubtedly have an effect there. But I read about a Type 1 Brit who moved to New York and was told to get off the carbs, with an immediate and huge improvement in his health. I’m monitoring my own situation, of course.
That’s three successive posts (including this one) that have been off-topic… it’s not going well, is it?
🙂
Nick,
I am a type 2, having been diagnosed 14 years ago. I dropped 50 pounds over several years and have been stable at a weight that is reasonable for my frame, but still higher than I would like. I take a glucophage twice a day. Recently I modified my exercise regimen and have had excellent results, with my blood sugar tests showing a lot lower numbers. I have been doing light weights for some time and have added 10-12 minutes of stationary bike, raising my heart rate to 120-130 and keeping it there for 5-7 minutes each morning. My average test is more than ten points lower now than a month ago. Exercise works!
Daisy
May they live long and prosper!
@ Nick Bulbeck: There is no problem doing it your way. Studies have shown that long term compliance is much higher with low carb here in the States. I would imagine it might be different in other countries and cultures with different foods. So long as your A1C is stable, all is well.
@ Arce: My husband would applaud you. He has got a group of heart patients on his personal regimen. He says it helps them to understand that he is in it with them. They like to ask him how he is doing, what I make for him for dinner, etc.
For the heart patients who are overweight, he puts them on a low carb diet. He tells them they must exercise 7 days a week for 30 minuets which is the new AHA guideline. He does it as well. He says the 7 days is essential because our bodies were designed to do physical labor 7 days a week. Most of us now sit and stare at computers all day (like Deebs).
He tells them all about my discovery of Dreamfields pasta which has only 5 net carbs absorbed. This has gotten us through the carb cravings. Instead of potatoes, we will have this on the side. There are even lasagna noodles. Most supermarkets carry it. My local supermarket is always low on it because people are discovering it. Even a double portion is only 10 carbs. Yay!
He is on two of the oral agents and he hovers around a 6 A1C. He would like to get it under 6.
The funny part of the story is this. He often has a couple come to see him in which only one is the patient. He describes the regimen. 6 months later, they come back. The one who is not a patent lost weight. The other is stable. He will ask the patient if he is following the regimen. The patient will say yes but the wife is in the background, shaking her head, no!
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Maybe someday we could have a “Chit-Chat” post and just get to know one another. 🙂
@ dee:
I think the key word here is “stable”. When you have two opposing forces balancing one another, the larger those forces are, the less stable the system and the greater the likelihood that any sudden imbalance will result in a major failure. I.e…. our Atlantic-crossing friend was eating face-fulls of carbs and metabolising them with shed-loads of insulin, resulting in severe blood glucose spikes alternating with raging hypos. So it made perfect sense for him to cut the carbs; it meant his insulin dose could come down as well. My insulin dose is fairly small, in part because I burn a lot of sugar.
Though interestingly, I’m needing more insulin at the moment because I’m trying to get rid of a shin-splint; my running mileage is a lot less than normal.
@ Victorious:
That’s not a bad idea. It occurs to me that even my own blog doesn’t really have much of an “about me” page. And besides, you get to know someone far better from a conversation than a monologue.
@ dee:
I just discovered Dreamfields pasta! It’s what I’ll be serving our spaghetti sauce over tonight.
Another product I love are La Tortilla Factory tortillas. The minis have only 3 grams usable carbs. I use them for sandwich wraps and hot dog “buns.”
I’m not diabetic. I had weight issues most of my life, and found the low-carb lifestyle the best way (for me) to maintain a healthy weight.
Re the diabetes thread: I was diagnosed with diabetes at age 52 (20 years ago) and started on insulin 2 years later. Two and a half years ago I moved to 4 insulin doses a day, a short acting variety before each meal and a long acting dose at bed time. On this latest regime I am keeping my A1C values under 6.5% (my Dr would like the A1C reading under 6% but that doesn’t seem possible). Other than minimizing sucrose consumption choice of food has not been a problem. Recombinant human DNA technology insulin makes life far easier for diabetics than it was even a few decades ago.
My head hurts after reading the Wells Church’s website. I’ll never understand the value of stating things with affected 18th Century English vernacular.
Anyway. I find it interesting that American churches as a whole are dying while churches in developing nations (like India and China) are thriving, even with Christianity being a minority religion and persecuted against in some cases.
I mean c’mon. Think about American churches and the house church movement in the aformentioned countries. What REALLY looks more like the church in Acts?
We’re at this point where the ability to have scholarly doctrine debates is end all to be all of what defines a believer, while churches in other areas are stressing community with each other and with Jesus. They meet to celebrate that aspect.
I’m sad reading Edwards and Pink is becoming a prerequisite to fellowship with some churches in America.
Dis wrote:
Mine as wells. I don’t think I linked this message board earlier- it has up to date news/slanders/speculation on the Catherine Groves situation and the latest from her Mom and from the Welldurs. http://faith.boardhost.com/index.php
@ Dis:
Friends of ours worked for two years in Nepal, based in a Nepalese church that was part of something quite similar to the Baptist Union of Scotland (I suspect this is very different from the SBC culturally, and as far as I know is entirely distinct historically). They commented on their return that the standard monthly reports that the church filled in and sent to denominational HQ has a section headed “Healings”, or something similar. And these were, apparently, routinely filled in with actual hearings such as you’d read about in Acts. There was no great song and dance made about them either.
Duh – that should read “actual healings”, of course.
Dave A A wrote:
This forum apparently has been “under attack” according to the Factnet’s owner.Can you maybe summarize what you read on the forum?
I am very interested.
Broken wrote:
Hi Broken,
I’m not sure what “under attack” means but I just went there and didn’t see a problem. The topic being discussed is quite lengthy, so you might want to check there again.
Great it is working now!
Before I would click the link and it would take me to a ad site(perhaps a virus). When I looked at the cache version, the owner wrote he apologized the forum had been under-attack and they were adding more security to prevent it from happening again.
The COW was featured On CNN Headline News today. You can watch it here:
http://www.ketknbc.com/news/live-on-cnn-headline-news-ketk-covers-the-church-o
There will be a longer piece tomorrow. One of the elders will speak and well as the parents of a member.
I am the step-mother to Cory James McLaughlin, he is a member of the Church of Wells. Our family grew tired of his preaching to us and telling us we were all going to hell years ago. My daughters were the last to hold on to the hope of having a relationship with him but after the baby died in Wells churches hands we have all given up. He looks like dead man walking, his shoulders are rounded, his face is drawn and his spirit is lost.
I am the Aunt to Sean Morris who is an “elder” in the church, what a joke he is in his late 20’s. I have known these people since they were children. All I can really say about Sean Morris is that is has always been strange and that he got sucked into a cult in Galveston, TX when he was a teenager that his family had to get him out of. Cory on the other hand I know very well.
I really do not have anything nice at all to say about Cory, he professes himself to be a preacher, he is not. He has memorized the bible and twists every word in it to suit his needs. I do know that he feels that stealing is not a sin, the lawyers contacting his last known address (our home) send him collection letters regularly. I guess God is supposed to pay those bills. I do know that the payments for the student loans that his grandfather co-signed for him have been late and may not ever be paid back. I do know that he is the most self-centered, egotistical, lazy person I have ever met. I do know if you invite him over for dinner he will show up empty handed, he will be the first in the buffet line, and he would not think of offering help in any way.
I know 7 members of the church, the last time I saw them about 1 year ago they all looked like they were sad, scared, weak, angry, soulless and sick. What happened to the joy of God in your life? We were at a wedding, it should have been a happy day, it wasn’t.
This group of people started out ‘thinking’ they were doing a good thing but really they are just a bunch of misguided fools in a cult.
@ Rene:
Thank you for writing this. It’s very meaningful. You have my respect and compassion.
@ Rene:
Am so sorry you have family members involved in COW.
Thanks for giving us an inside view of it’s leadership.
As a Texan, I can testify that this state has more than its proportional share of extremists and wierdos, in all walks of life.
And the Branch Davidian thing was not IN Waco, just reported FROM Waco, because the nearest hotels were in Waco. It involved the “pastor” having sex with children and multiple women, among other atrocities.
Arce
Texas is a great state with a big heart. It is also a huge state with many places for starnge people with strange ideas to hide out. It is hard for people to imagine a state in which you can drive all day long, in a straight shot, and not leave the state.
Waco is a wonderful city and I know it would not tolerate such nonsense.
More on this cult at http://faith.boardhost.com/index.php
Wells Mom
Thnak you for keeping us posted. We could do a f/u post as things are in flux.
Rene wrote:
I am so sorry for your family. So many people get sucked into groups who claim that they know how to do it right. Frankly, there is an element of that in many denominations. The problem escalates when it begins to isolate people. Please know i am glad that the authorities are beginning to keep an eye on these folks.
Does anyone know how to get in touch with Patty and Andy Grove (parents of Catherine Grove) I am an attorney. The parent needs to file for a guardianship of their adult daughter, which will have a court hearing and she can be mentally examined with report to court (and have her own attorney if she wants). This would allow a neutral assessment of the situation. (I have had attorneys take elders for their money in similar situations and the court will take action!) PLEASE FORWARD IF ANYONE KNOWS HOW TO CONTACT THESE PARENTS. Aloha
Wells Mom
Thank you for keeping us posted. We could do a f/u post as things are in flux.
Does anyone know how to get in touch with Patty and Andy Grove (parents of Catherine Grove) I am an attorney. The parent needs to file for a guardianship of their adult daughter, which will have a court hearing and she can be mentally examined with report to court (and have her own attorney if she wants). This would allow a neutral assessment of the situation. (I have had attorneys take elders for their money in similar situations and the court will take action!) PLEASE FORWARD IF ANYONE KNOWS HOW TO CONTACT THESE PARENTS. Aloha
Does anyone know how to get in touch with Patty and Andy Grove (parents of Catherine Grove) I am an attorney. The parent needs to file for a guardianship of their adult daughter, which will have a court hearing and she can be mentally examined with report to court (and have her own attorney if she wants). This would allow a neutral assessment of the situation. (I have had attorneys take elders for their money in similar situations and the court will take action!) PLEASE FORWARD IF ANYONE KNOWS HOW TO CONTACT THESE PARENTS. Aloha
Hmmm…my former church fits 8 of those 9 traits. Sigh.
I think it’s a lot more prevalent than people might think. They generally don’t advertise and they know the code words to use to appear normal-ish.
The following quote by the young woman is extremely telling of their doctrine, mindset and yes, brainwashing…
“My parents are worried about me and I understand that, but they should be more worried about drawing me away from the Lord, by teaching something that is not in the Bible. I am not born again, and I don’t think my parents are either. These people are not keeping me here against my will. They are not brainwashing me as they have been accused of. They are telling me what the Bible says.”
She states she is seeking the Lord and they are teaching her how, but she’s not born again and she doesn’t think her parents are. This is a big deal. When you are born again, you know it. What are they teaching her that she believes she’s not and needs their ‘teaching’ to learn howe?!?! DANGER!
Does anyone know how to get in touch with Patty and Andy Grove (parents of Catherine Grove) I am an attorney. The parent needs to file for a guardianship of their adult daughter, which will have a court hearing and she can be mentally examined with report to court (and have her own attorney if she wants). This would allow a neutral assessment of the situation. (I have had attorneys take elders for their money in similar situations and the court will take action!) PLEASE FORWARD IF ANYONE KNOWS HOW TO CONTACT THESE PARENTS. Aloha
Jennifer
I have contacted the one person who has shared her contact info. I asked her to advise me about putting you in touch. I did not share your contact info either. I always wait for permission from both sides. However, it you wish, with your permission I can forward your contact that you used for commenting.
Dee
dee wrote:
And, yet, it not only has tolerated it, but also considered it a tourist attraction. I think many Wacoans are only just becoming aware of how bad it is.
Right now, a young woman with four children has filed for divorce from a son of the founding elder of Waco’s resident cult. She says she was coerced into marrying him by her mother, her minister, and her husband’s parents. Her husband has been stalking her, and making the divorce process very difficult.
I want to say thank you for covering this. I don’t get local channels, so I was not aware of this Church of Wells controversy which happens to be in my own backyard. I’ve been doing a lot of reading and watching of their materials on their website and Youtube. Hmmmm…interesting (scary) stuff. I also have gone to local media outlets to read and watch their reports. I learned today that this has been picked up by CNN’s HLN network. Here is a link to their interview with the Groves that I understand aired today. http://www.hlntv.com/video/2013/09/11/church-wells-catherine-grove
Also, I found on their site this audio recording by Ryan Ringnald of Catherine’s revelation of her false conversion and the elders’ interactions with her parents, particularly Mrs. Groves, very telling: http://www.thechurchofwells.com/files/theme/What_Is_Biblical_Conversion.mp3
Finally, I didn’t read all the comments but saw Jennifer Smith’s just above. There is a Facebook in which Mrs. Groves has been interacting on from her Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/prayforcatherinegrove
Thanks again for drawing attention to this. Based on my reading and viewing of their material and the reports, I think there is much here about which to be concerned.
BTDT
Which is Waco’s resident cult? Do the police intervene?
@ dee:
I’m still afraid to call them out, though you’ve written a post about them before.
I’ve been told that the McLennan county sheriff and one Justice of the Peace would like to see them gone. But, unless they have something solid to investigate, there isn’t much they can do.
Actually, the only resident cult that I know of is not in town but in a rural community perhaps 10-15 miles outside of town on a Farm to Market road. We see them at the grocery where they are recognizable by their clothing — somewhat in the style of the Amish for the women. Rarely see the men. They do have a few open events each year and they have a restaurant.
The previous resident cult that was the big thing in 1993 is only a small remnant and they have internal squabbles all the time; the place is on a crooked rural road several miles from a main highway.
Dee, you have my permission to put me in touch with the other commenters who seem to be familiar with what is happening in Waco.
Anon by Choice wrote:
This is the place I’m speaking about.
Anon by Choice wrote:
You’ll find most of us are hesitant to talk. In the words of a friend of ours, “They act less like a church, and more like a vigilante group.” These people will go after you.
BTDT
Oh yeah, now I remember.
BTDT
You might be interested in being in touch with Anon By Choice. Let me know.
LOOK what Dr. Phil says—
Tools of Mind Control:
1. Control environment: Loved ones are cut off from family, no communication.
2. Break down sense of self: Break down their sense of self-esteem, literally attack them as individuals on the basis that they are wrong and that the group is right.
3. Instill new sense of identity: New identity is reinforced by the group environment, where you get no feedback except from other members who tell you that they understand the right behavior and the right way of being.
4. Isolate: Cut off from outside world. Fear keeps them trapped inside the environment of the group.
LOOK what Dr. Phil says—4 Signs
Tools of Mind Control:
1. Control environment: Loved ones are cut off from family, no communication.
2. Break down sense of self: Break down their sense of self-esteem, literally attack them as individuals on the basis that they are wrong and that the group is right.
3. Instill new sense of identity: New identity is reinforced by the group environment, where you get no feedback except from other members who tell you that they understand the right behavior and the right way of being.
4. Isolate: Cut off from outside world. Fear keeps them trapped inside the environment of the group.
Otherwise known as BRAINWASHING
Jule
Welcome. Great comment.
If you want to read something really disturbing, check Sean Morris’ Doctrine of Judgement. Especially Chapter 10 (it is quite wordy) on Familial Judgement! Scary and the reason for the shunning of family,
i jules wrote:
I KNOW JAKE GARDNER PERSONALLY HE IS A FRAUD HIS VISION OF HAVING A BOY WAS FOGGY WHEN HE HAD A BABY GIRL,HIS JUDGEMENT ON ALL CHURCH GROUPS AND PASTORS IS DISTURBING.
I live in Houston and have never heard of this “ministry”. However, from post I can’t tell where they’ve done anything wrong (whether they be Calvinist, Arminian, voodoo …whatever).
Looks like a parent prayed desperately over a deceased child and the “ministry” provided temporary food, shelter and religious training for a runaway female.
Their faith practices may see a little strange (especially to some of us that don’t follow Calvin to the letter theologically). But other than that I’ve seen nothing to this point to imply wrongdoing or evil of anykind.
I may not have the facts all straight.
Scott, it may not be obvious in the first post, but the Church of Wells is notorious for first isolating members from all their friends and family, and then teaching them to condemn their friends and family as “false Christians”. They essentially believe that anyone who has not “conquered” their sin (i.e. stopped sinning entirely) does not have saving faith.
For the Church of Wells, sin includes being involved in the degrading of modern culture: going to the movies, listening to pop music, etc. Not only that, but they use a pair of Bible verses to explain that anyone who does not cut off all contact with those who do such things, is ALSO in sin.
The two Bible verses are Luke 14:26 – “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.” and 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 – “But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people….Expel the wicked person from among you.”
1 Corinthians 5 was written to a group of Christians that allowed blatant and open sexual sin in their community: “A man has his father’s wife”. It was meant to challenge their spiritual apathy. But the Church of Wells takes this to incredible extremes, dissociating from basically everybody. (Remember that Jesus was condemned by Pharisees for eating, drinking and spending time with sinners…)
Also keep in mind, their definition of saving faith is not biblical. Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. Christ Jesus came to save sinners, not perfect people. He healed those who DIDN’T deserve it, not those who did.
The Church of Wells does not teach this gospel. They force their members to agonize and plead with God to be saved, often for weeks at a time, until the leaders of the church deem their pitiful efforts “saving faith”. Yet Jesus rewards the simplest faith in scripture – the faith of a child, a leper, or a thief on a cross. Not wordy or self-hating, but simply believing.
Re: Scott
Thank you for the very illuminating comment. I saw that the leader said that wathing American Idol was sinful. When my kids hit middle school and beyond, that is a show we watched as a family. We would have good natured arguments about ho would win, etc. I guess I am going to hell for not only watching but encourgaing my kdis to do so as well. PS The one guy we all agreed on is Scotty who won a couple of eyars back. He is a local and a very strong Christian.
these people are crazy! I have friends whose daughter is mixed up in this group. She has severed all ties with her parents. will not speak to them. has told them that they are going to hell. ( they happen to be very wonderful christain people) they are devastated. This group seems to commandment to “honor your father and mother” and instead seek to destroy family relationships. I see this as a situation where a bunch of men with insecurities need to control women especially to make themselves feel powerful. I shudder to think of what kind of abuses are going on that haven’t hit the news yet.