Singles: Excluded and Dismissed

Being single doesn't mean that you know nothing about love. Sometimes, being solo is wiser than being in a false relationship link

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=1651&picture=morning-sunToday is the last regular posting day that we we publish the personal testimonies on singles. However, we will post the rest of the testimonies that we have receive over the next couple of weeks on days that we do not usually post which would include the weekends and Tuesdays.  If we have overlooked any of your stories, please let us know ASAP and we will include them.

We have a number of topics in the pipeline including pastoral bullies, head coverings making a comeback, and some new developments in the publishing world.

This weekend, we will be enjoying the wedding of Deb's oldest daughter to a delightful young man. Thank you for bearing with us during this busy time.


Steven Crowder Lectures the Unmarried

Here is a link to a post, A Man's Top Five Reasons to Grow Up and Get Married, by Steven Crowder (bio here), who got married a few months ago and wrote an article about why he and his fiancee chose abstinence.  This was sent by one of our readers who said "I know he means well with this marriage article, but to me it seems to encapsulate many of the stereotypes that have been mentioned by the singles who inhabit TWW. "You will note that he does not quote any studies for his claims. He just *knows* his assertions have been proven. I find his conclusions naive and insulting.

Marriage is a good deal because:

  • You will make more money.
  • You will have more sex.
  • If you get married, you will not be a pathetic sloth and be more productive.
  • If you are married, you will not dies sick, miserable and alone.
  • You will have a better chance of surviving cancer.
  • You won't be fat.

Unasked for Advice by Retha Faurie of the blog Biblical Personhood

It is Mothers' Day. At the front door of my church, two ladies are giving out a little card to each mother passing to enter. I approach the door. Loudly, the one tells the other: “Don't give one to her. She's not a mother.”

On face value, that is just another true statement. But her intonation and facial expression said: “… and I am deeply suspicious of someone like her.” Perhaps it even meant: “How could a woman not want to be a mother?”

I am not a mother, because I could not find a husband, and I find the idea of choosing to have children alone and to raise them alone not in the best interest of children.

And the church should take at least part of the blame for me still being alone. They taught me that husbands should be spiritual leaders. I, who loved the Lord and spent a lot of time doing Bible study, thus ignored the interest shown by any young man who does not show evidence of working as hard for the Lord and understanding the Bible better than I do. How could such a man lead me spiritually? (I am over those “he must be the spiritual leader” ideas now, but I am still single.)

Here are a few things I experienced less than positively as a single woman in the church.

Not so good: When the church has a four-sermon series on consecutive Sunday mornings, preaching about (complementarian) marriage. What about the children, widows, divorcees and never-married people attending sermons? Would the pastors ever ignore married people to make the theme, four sermons in a row, Christian widow-hood? Or ignore every church member of another age for weeks, preaching about how to live as a Christian in high school?

Worse: The general feeling, when speaking to church ladies, that I am not one of them, that I do not belong among them. Is the church not supposed to be a family? And even though I may not be like most of the other sisters in this family, I need my brothers and sisters at least as much as anyone else does.

Really bad: Unasked for advice about singleness.

  • “Don’t settle for second best.”
  • “Settle.”
  • “If you just pray and trust the Lord, he will give you a husband. (In many churches, there are up to three women in the church for every two men. I seriously doubt that, if all Christian women prayed for Christian husbands, God would give every one of them a husband.)
  • “Young woman, you should wait for a good Christian man.”
  • “Don’t pursue men. Live your life. Study. Do what your hand finds to do. He will come along when the time is right.”
  • “Pursue men. You can’t just sit around and wait for them to come to you.”
  • “Men don’t like strong, independent women, you feminist! It’s because you live a happy, independent life that men don’t want you!”
  • “Men don’t like dependent women. Learn to be complete in Christ.”

The “settle and have kids” type sometimes back up their advice by introducing me to some slightly mentally handicapped guy who lives in somebody else’s back room somewhere. (“Hey, Retha, Jack is also single like you! See? There is already one thing you two have in common.”)

Downright ugly: Gender role doctrine. “God wants everyone to follow their biblical gender roles,” say the proponents of complementarianism. “Okay. What is my biblical gender role as a single woman? I cannot submit to a husband or raise my children well?” I ask.They do not answer. The message seems to be: “Well, everyone has gender roles. But you, Retha – you are not part of everyone.”

Am I unreasonable if this makes me feel excluded?

Even worse is the patriarchal side of complementarianism (Complementarianism and “Biblical” patriarchy are not two separate things, but related like brown is related to the color of mud.) These people can tell me what my gender role is. But their role is ridiculous (stay with my father? He does not even want me there) and certainly not taught in the Bible. Their “role” is downright offensive and shows hardly any overlap with Bible teaching, wisdom, justice or the gifts God gave me.


Dysfunctional Church Singles Groups

Just over 25 years ago I was involved in a singles group at the church I was then attending. One evening following the weekly meeting, one of the group's leaders asked to speak with me in private. He accused me of engaging in improper conduct toward 30 women in the group, which understandably left me shocked. He also accused me of lying.

He later revised the accusation to 30 instances involving 5 women. Eventually I  talked to three women, clearing up misunderstandings with two of them. In a third case, I apologized for committing a relatively minor social faux pas. When we met, however, the woman first asked my forgiveness for speaking to someone else about the issue rather than speaking directly to me. 

During this process I learned the leader espoused the belief that single men were supposedly the spiritual covering of single women. All these years later I've yet to find the Scriptural basis for such a belief. As it turned out, my story was only one of a number of incidents in a singles group which turned out to be dysfunctional in more ways than one. I left that group, which the church finally shut down, and eventually left that church as well.


Singles Are Around to Support Their Married Brothers and Sisters

 I just got home from my church and really needed to vent about some things, and Wartburg is, I think, the one place I know and am becoming part of where I felt I could do this.

Today our student minister preached on 1 Peter 3:1-7:

Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.(NIV: Bible Gateway)

When we were told what the Bible reading was, my heart started to sink. Listening through the sermon I got more and more frustrated. I wish I could have asked questions at morning tea afterwards, but didn't trust my own composure.

I'll start at the beginning. First up he talked about why this is an important passage for everyone to hear, even those who are single (most at my church are or have been married, I am one of the odd ones out as a 28 year old single female), and how we singles really need to support our married brothers and sisters. Except, it's never ever said the other way around, and singleness and single Christians never seem to be seen for their value, or even talked about – there's an invisibility, or maybe (if we're lucky) a 'one day, singles, it'll happen for you!'

I have no problem with supporting my married brothers and sisters, I think I do that pretty well, I often will stand in for others leading singing, or doing creche,or doing other jobs when other people have something else on. But it'd be nice to feel more included sometimes, and to not be seen as the girl who can help out when those with 'more important' lives are busy. And it'd be nice to not have to sit through sermons that barely acknowledge the existence of my situation. I know this isn't what anybody means to do, but that's how it tends to feel.

The focus of the sermon was, of course, on wives being submissive. What this actually means wasn't talked about, and thinking back through other sermons I've heard on this and similar passages, I don't think it often is. Maybe the preachers are worried that spelling it out too practically will make people react?Very little time was spent on the second half of verse 1, which I'd have thought was most important: wives are to do this *so that *their non-Christian husbands sit up and take notice. It seems to me it's less an 'all women are to submit and be lesser than their husbands' argument, more a 'be humble and kind and pure so your husband goes 'wow, what's going on here?' and want to learn why you're like that and then hopefully comes to know Christ'. It's more about a change in behaviour which we all should go through when we become Christians and try and live lives that reflect Jesus, and how that change should be noticeable to those around us.

He did talk a little bit to husbands, and this bit was better than I'd expected. He did say that men aren't here told to rule their wives and tell them what to do, but to love and respect them. That was good, I thought. But what he said about the 'weaker partner' bit was strange. He tried to say it was only talking about physically weaker – yeah right! As if when it was written Peter and those the letter was written to (and the wider society) thought women were only weaker in strength. I think the minister preached it that way because then you avoid all those inconvenient questions about cultural context. Of course, he did on not so many words dismiss the modern cultural context that sees men and women as equal.

At the start he'd suggested he'd come back to singles later, and he did. Of course, his coming back to singles was basically:

'oh yeah, and there are single people and you need to live how God has shown you to live too, amen'.

I'd have preferred no further mention of singles than that dismissiveness. I guess when the sermons always come from married men they just don't get how it sounds to a single woman – or many married women, too.

Lydia's Corner: 2 Chronicles 11:1-13:22 Romans 8:26-39 Psalm 18:37-50 Proverbs 19:27-29

Comments

Singles: Excluded and Dismissed — 158 Comments

  1. Steven Crowder says, “Marry and you won’t be fat”?

    He’s actually 100% wrong. Being overweight is highly correlated with being married, not with being single.

    I know he’s wrong about several other claims, but I’ve got to run out and live my very exciting single life, and I don’t have time to look it up.

    Crowder is typical of the pastors who create fake stats to shame singles.

    I’ve mentioned the sociology professor with a Harvard Ph.D. who writes a lot about the myths of singleness. Her full-length book, Singled Out, includes a mountain of data debunking these lies.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bella-depaulo/single-people-myths_b_846461.html

  2. “I’d have preferred no further mention of singles than that dismissiveness. I guess when the sermons always come from married men they just don’t get how it sounds to a single woman – or many married women, too.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    Church of the Knuckleheads

  3. Steven Crowder is in for some surprises.

    as to what Retha Faurie wrote, just makes me wonder — does any professional Christian with a mic have an original idea anymore?

  4. Not all churches teach such mind numbing blather. I sat in one church for four years that taught no women in the pulpit, complementarian roles for women in marriage, biblical counseling only (no actual professionally trained therapists) no divorce except adultery, literal six day creation, blah, blah, blah… We loved the congregation, but my wife and I had enough and starting looking for another church. Bingo! Found an American Baptist church that had a woman pastor, encourages couples to work out their own roles in marriage, refers congregants to professional counseling, is graceful about divorce, and allows the teaching of 4.3 million year old earth. So why did we or anybody else sit for this blather for so long?
    In our case, I think that our spiritual relationship with God found representation in the church we attended, It was where we worshipped God with other Christians and we experienced God’s presence their. We forget that the same experience is going on across town, only that church isn’t pastored by men that are so full of themselves.
    Short answer, vote with your feet. Your pastor is not going to change, he has not interest in changing. If you live in a decent sized community get out of that pew and find another church. You might be surprised by that church your pastor warned you about- we were.
    Oh yeah, a single divorced female pastor starts to serve here in September.

  5. Janey wrote:

    I’ve mentioned the sociology professor with a Harvard Ph.D. who writes a lot about the myths of singleness. Her full-length book, Singled Out, includes a mountain of data debunking these lies.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bella-depaulo/single-people-myths_b_846461.html

    Her myth (number 4, I think) about marrieds doing more community service than singles had a parallel at my previous Vision Forum obsessed church: Small families are selfish and large families have more people to spare to serve the rest of the body.

    When I was on 9 weeks of bedrest, it wasn’t the moms of large families that came to help out. Two moms with only two kids (who had “selfishly cut off children”) came to visit once. After about 7-8 weeks, a mom of five came to visit once (she also sent a card). One 14 year old girl offered to help watch my toddler son for free and I almost cried, despite not being an emotional person, because we had to pay for FT home child care because I couldn’t even take care of myself while Mr. Hoppy was at work. In the end, I felt it not right to have her work a few days for free when we were paying her older sister.

    In total, we spent about $2000 on child care. So much for Doug Philip’s bloviating about stay-at-home daughters being sent out to serve the body. They were all at home taking care of their mom’s kids.

    Looking back, were these girls obligated to come help me, even once or twice? No. But at the time, I really believed that people would follow Vision Forum’s suggestion and have them offer to help. After all, the small families were supposedly selfish and those big, quiverful families were supposed to be generous. Only it wasn’t true. If I’d had any non-Christian (or more normal Christian) friends, I think they would’ve done a better job at least sending a card.

  6. It looks like I forgot my main point in my previous comment.

    All this is to say that I am not surprised single people volunteer more. They are less likely to have their own kids to take care of and they don’t have to negotiate their schedule with a spouse. Do any of us really think Paul or Jesus could’ve traveled as much if they’d been married and had kids to look after? Paul’s tentmaking was enough to support himself, but if he’d had a family, not much time for preaching would have been left.

  7. The church complains their divorce rate is high yet they push marriage and as young as 16 in some cases. It’s ridiculous. When I was young, I saw my friends marrying at 16 or 18 and divorcing at 20. I swore I would rather be single than marry just anyone and believe me I dated a lot of frogs. I’d rather my children be single than marry just anyone. We need to look at this closely and singleness ought to be put as a standard as opposed to marrying just anyone for the sake of marriage. Come on church wake up. This is another area society gets right.

  8. Amen and amen Loren and Debbie. Don’t listen to nonsense, even if (or maybe especially if) they are saying it at church. Do vote with your feet. In the survivalist movement they talk about having a G.O.O.D bag. GOOD stands for “get out of Dodge.” There does come a time when the only answer is to leave and go somewhere else. Sometimes “Dodge” is a job situation with harassment and no future and just plain toxic stuff to deal with. Sharpen your skills and see if you can find something else. Similarly, churches can become toxic. First be sure that the church is really toxic, and the problem is not just you. Then move on. Keep that GOOD bag packed with good knowledge of scripture, and a good helping of self respect, a network of friends and acquaintances outside that church, some interests that do not require participation in that church (like a hobby or a sport or something,) a good dose of physical and mental health, and move on.

    There a lot of us out here who have done that, and I can only say that for me to leave the denomination into which I was born and whose language I spoke with a native accent , was very difficult. I felt awkward and rather like a traitor. I felt kind of like a child at times, trying to get used to “how people do” in the new environment. All that is temporary. The difficulty is worth it. As long as I had tried to force myself to believe things that I knew good and well were not true I wasted a lot of emotional energy. Now that I don’t have to do that any more I feel like a great burden has been lifted.

    Now, in all of life circumstances there are problems and difficulties. That is not what I am saying. Nobody has to rearrange anything just to suit me. But if things really are toxic, and if what is being taught really is contrary to scripture and harmful to people, then grab the GOOD bag and hit the road.

  9. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Loren Haas wrote:
    allows the teaching of 4.3 million year old earth.
    Either you meant to say “billion” or they’re still YEC!

    If a million was intended it’s off by a factor of a 1000, not a million. Definitely not YEC. 🙂

  10. Loren Haas wrote:

    So why did we or anybody else sit for this blather for so long?
    In our case, I think that our spiritual relationship with God found representation in the church we attended, It was where we worshipped God with other Christians and we experienced God’s presence there. We forget that the same experience is going on across town, only that church isn’t pastored by men that are so full of themselves.
    Short answer, vote with your feet. Your pastor is not going to change, he has not interest in changing. If you live in a decent sized community get out of that pew and find another church. You might be surprised by that church your pastor warned you about- we were.

    Loren — I love your line about being surprised by that church your pastor warned you about. I was dissatisfied by my home church for years, but none of the mega-churches around me seemed much better.

    I asked a few friends who had left 10 years earlier where they ended up. And they recommended a little church I’d never heard of.

    Now I’m at this delightful church where the pastor is conservative theologically, but he’s not homophobic, anti-global warming, endlessly promoting a particular view of evolution, rapidly anti-divorce in any and all cases, not dissing singles, and definitely not elitist.

    The making-new-friends phase takes a while, but the pastor and his congregation are a lot warmer and more approachable and it’s easy to chat with people I’ve just met. (Small church phenomena?). Even my adult children now want to attend this church.

    I think singles of all ages should start asking around. You cannot change your church. Elitist churches attract elites who want to be seen as better than others. You might have a few close friends who are different, but you cannot fight city hall.

    Churches with younger congregations and mainline churches tend not to be so mean-spirited toward singles. (As a friend says, “I can deal with a bit of liberalism, but I cannot be in a church that reeks of Phariseeism.”)

  11. HoppyTheToad wrote:

    All this is to say that I am not surprised single people volunteer more. They are less likely to have their own kids to take care of and they don’t have to negotiate their schedule with a spouse.

    Hoppy — That’s been my experience too. The church claims that after a divorce, your friends will be all the wives in the church. But that is not what happens. Wives won’t take any time away from their own children and their husbands and their housecleaning. The stay-at-home wives and the homeschooling wives don’t help, don’t get involved, and refuse to be a listening ear.

    They also refuse to invite you back to the Bible studies and small groups you used to attend together for years, even if you ask. It’s shocking. Despite all of the high-mindedness, many churches are social clubs based on marital status and politic. Jesus has left the building.

    I see the mid-life singles doing huge amounts of hospital visitation, volunteering, mentoring, etc.

  12. Our lives are changing rapidly. Our societal norms and expectations are up for revision on a daily basis. Our nation’s international relations have been war or almost war all of my life. A large percentage of people in this country are dealing with huge employment, financial, personal and health issues. And whatever it is, you name it, the media and the government tell us that we ought to be worried about it.

    is it any wonder that we get to the church house and find out that almost no two of us can agree on anything. We can’t even agree on what the issues are that we think we ought to agree about. Talk about being afraid to say anything without offending somebody–especially at church.

    Maybe, then, it is a relief for some people to be in churches that have rules for everything and expect people to all comply with all the rules. It seems less chaotic that way. And just think, you can “belong” at least in your own mind if you just follow the rules and procedures. I personally cannot live like that because I think that truth has to be compromised to attain that lifestyle. But if some people need that in order to cope, well…well, I don’t know. Obviously there is some appeal for that, because there are a lot of folks in churches like that.

    I personally need to cut people a lot more slack than I find easy to do. Mea culpa.

  13. @ Janey:

    I would like to point out that this is not true of all homeschooling mothers. I have known many who do nothing but open their homes and hearts to singles whatever the reason. While I have seen the prevalence of the dismissiveness overall in the church, it is not a bad thing to be a stay at home mother who home schools her children.

  14. @ Janey: Many Christians hear fact from a pastor. or a Christian leader, and assume that is true. I know two young men, in college, who during sermons, fact check assertions from the pastor. For example, you know the one about a frog that will stay in the water until it dies if the heat is slowly turned up? Well, it is not true.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

  15. elastigirl wrote:

    does any professional Christian with a mic have an original idea anymore?

    There are websites in which a pastor can take sermons-not ideas, whole sermons. Also, speakers like CJ Mahaney reuse their sermons all the time.

  16. Loren Haas wrote:

    Short answer, vote with your feet. Your pastor is not going to change, he has not interest in changing. If you live in a decent sized community get out of that pew and find another church.

    I totally agree. However, there is caveat. Some churches will no longer allow you to leave unless you get their permission or fulfill certain requirements like join another church with which they approve. That is what is happening with or good friend TW whose church refuses to remove him from the membership roster.

  17. Marriage is a good deal because:

    You won’t be fat.

    Obviously he never met my parents or my maternal grandfather.

  18. Marriage is a good deal because:

    If you get married, you will not be a pathetic sloth and be more productive.

    I worked 50 hours this week. So much for that myth.

  19. AngelaCFR wrote:

    it is not a bad thing to be a stay at home mother who home schools her children.

    No, it’s not all homeschooling moms. I am one myself. But the quiverful homeschooling families don’t have the time or energy to volunteer much, in my experience. The moms are always pregant, nursing, or both and don’t feel like taking their large brood places. That’s aside from the multiple health problems these women often end up with from using their bodies up at a young age.

    I wasn’t homeschooled but my mom did stay home. Once we were both in school, she had lots of time to volunteer. If she’d had a baby every 21 months, she wouldn’t have been able to do this.

  20. @ oldJohnJ: What is the current thinking on the age of the universe and the age of the earth? Is it still 15 billion and 4.5 billion respectively?

  21. AngelaCFR wrote:

    I would like to point out that this is not true of all homeschooling mothers. I have known many who do nothing but open their homes and hearts to singles whatever the reason. While I have seen the prevalence of the dismissiveness overall in the church, it is not a bad thing to be a stay at home mother who home schools her children.

    Angela, I’m not questioning the value of stay at home or homeschooling mothers. Slightly less than half of the wives in the U.S. don’t work outside the home. It’s an option and for many families it’s a good option.

    I’m glad you open your home to singles. But do you hear the difference between what you’re saying and what I am?

    [I’m not ranting at you, but at this misconception in general.]

    Opening your home to those “singles” is a nice thing to do. But actually treating your single friends and your divorced friends as equals and valued members of your Christian community is something completely different.

    At my old church, the adult Sunday school teachers show marriage videos that say you shouldn’t spend time with those “who don’t place a high value on marriage.”

    I wish that meant those old party friends. But the implication is that anyone who is *divorced* holds a low view of marriage. Those videos give Christians the excuse to marginalize and exclude their divorced friends. And it works very well.

    So, I’m happy to have left my marrieds-only church and am now actively working to get all of my single/divorced friends out of there an into a church where they will be embraced exactly as they are and can meaningfully contribute.

  22. @ HoppyTheToad: I think that this is an important comment. It is difficult to serve in the church if you have a boat load of children to care for. I found it difficult with 3 little ones.

  23. Nancy wrote:

    Maybe, then, it is a relief for some people to be in churches that have rules for everything and expect people to all comply with all the rules.

    Great insight! It is a lot easier to have a set of rules to check off and feel like you are a good Christian. Jesus threw the Pharisees for a loop when he suggested that their rules were not enough. Without grace, we are in trouble. With grace we are free.

  24. AngelaCFR wrote:

    it is not a bad thing to be a stay at home mother who home schools her children.

    Of course not. However, I do not think that was the point that Janey was making. We do tend to hang around in cliques that do and believe the same things that we do. It is natural. But, Jesus wanted us to push ourselves out of natural inclinations and hang with those that are very different than we are.

    Jesus only had 3 years in ministry. Think abut the people to whom He gravitated. His time was spent, primarily with the lost and hurting-prostitutes, lepers, despised tax collectors, etc. How many of us do the same? Do we tend to hang around the “nice, godly people?”

  25. @ dee:
    If the church you move to gives a crumb of validation to the old church not releasing you from their membership, then you are still not at the right church. Same church, different name.
    I do feel sorry for anyone battling with a church to be released from membership. That kind of thinking drives people to just stay home on Sunday and watch sports.

  26. Janey wrote:

    Loren — I love your line about being surprised by that church your pastor warned you about. I was dissatisfied by my home church for years, but none of the mega-churches around me seemed much better.

    I learned after we started at the new church that the pastor was very much the black sheep to the other pastor’s in town. Seems to go back to California’s anti-gay marriage amendment campaign when all the other pastors in town were foaming at the mouth about the downfall of human civilization. Like they used to about Mormons going to hell, only not so much now that they were on god’s side with them on Prop. 8. My new pastor officially refused to endorse any political campaign. You know, the way all Baptists used to be. Well, the circle was redrawn and now he was on the outside. I actually had another pastor in town say to me, “I heard your pastor doesn’t believe in the bible anymore?”
    Sooo glad to get away from these knuckleheaded blowhards.

  27. dee wrote:

    What is the current thinking on the age of the universe and the age of the earth? Is it still 15 billion and 4.5 billion respectively?

    Current estimates are 13.8 billion years for the universe, 4.5 billion for planet Earth (ref wikipedia). Both are subject to slight revision as more evidence accrues. Earth’s age as given is almost a million times longer than the favorite YEC Earth age.

    Loren Haas, these are not significantly different than your values. My comment to N.B. was intended as humorous since a 4.3 million year age is 1000 times closer to the best estimate than the 6000 year age favored by many YECers.

  28. Loren Haas wrote:

    Seems to go back to California’s anti-gay marriage amendment campaign when all the other pastors in town were foaming at the mouth about the downfall of human civilization. Like they used to about Mormons going to hell, only not so much now that they were on god’s side with them on Prop. 8

    Little aside on the subject. You know who was actually responsible for Prop 8 passing? A certain Barack H Obama.

    You see, Obama’s successful run for President in 2008 caused a very heavy voter turnout in the black and brown communities in Cali — subcultures which are very straitlaced regarding homosexuality. They voted for Obama — and voted for Prop 8.

    As as for the Mormons now being “on God’s side with them on Prop 8”, remember that four years later Mormon Objectivist Glenn Beck became God’s Oracle and Mormon Mitt Romney became God’s Anointed Choice for POTUS. Even Billy Graham’s son removed “Mormons” from the List of CULTS in support for Romney. So looks like Mormons are now Real True Christians. As the Arab proverb goes, “Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend.”

  29. dee wrote:

    Jesus only had 3 years in ministry. Think abut the people to whom He gravitated. His time was spent, primarily with the lost and hurting-prostitutes, lepers, despised tax collectors, etc. How many of us do the same? Do we tend to hang around the “nice, godly people?”

    Dee and Angela — And here’s what so sad… The divorced people at my old church are some of the finest people I know. Their Christian maturity and integrity is astounding, but no one knows. In a church that worships marriage, you aren’t allowed to be friends with divorced people. God forbid you actually admire one.

    One has trained Olympic athletes, another is a high ranking finance person in a Fortune 500, another raised 5 children while earning minimum wage and getting no child support, another is an industry leader who is highly regarded in the secular world (fills several pages of Google results) but is marginalized in the church.

  30. Loren Haas wrote:

    I learned after we started at the new church that the pastor was very much the black sheep to the other pastor’s in town. Seems to go back to California’s anti-gay marriage amendment campaign when all the other pastors in town were foaming at the mouth about the downfall of human civilization.

    Loren — My new pastor isn’t quite the blacksheep but he does attend those pastors groups and politely demurs from participating in the culture wars even though he’s conservative. At least he talks to his peers. No one at my old megachurch would deign to meet with other pastors. They are so isolated and self-absorbed they don’t have any idea of the demographics in their own area. I can already predict what their church attendance will be 5 years from now, even down to the number of children in Sunday school! This info is available free. Their zip code has declined in religious interest more than any other in a 10 miles radius. No kidding.

    (It’s interesting to see this kind of data. Just for kicks, you can enter your own zip code here — far right side, dark blue box:
    http://missioninsite.com/)

  31. I haven’t read the previous thread yet to see any comments on it. I may get around to it later.

    Regarding the “Steven Crowder List Of Great Reasons Marriage is Wonderful.” I am not brave enough to click the link and read his page. Maybe some day.

    Some of the stuff on his list has been refuted by Bella DePaulo:
    On Getting Married and (Not) Getting Happier: What We Know by Bella DePaulo

    About this (by Crowder):
    “You will have more [T]ex [of you are married].”

    Or not. I have seen countless stories over the years on the internet and in relationship advice columns (both Christian and Non Christian) by spouses who say they are not getting any Tex at all, or only once per year. Still others say oh yeah they are getting Tex but it’s awful Tex.

    Christians also push the angle that “if you wait until marriage the Tex will be earth shattering great.” But see my paragraph right above this one.

    Funny enough, Christians (and Non Christians) adhere to conflicting views…. they act like singles get no Tex because they don’t have a regular partner, but then, out of the other side of their mouths, they assume all unmarried people are sleeping around all over the place.

    And unmarried Christian women are all supposedly all harlots who scheme to bed every married man they ever meet!

    So, the unmarried are thought to be Texless, as well as being over-Texed… all at the same time. We’re getting lots of Tex and None at all, all at the same time.

    Crowder: “You will make more money [if married].”

    Because American society financially penalizes singles (DePaulo discusses that on the Psychology Today site, under her “Single Life” column or whatever it’s called).

    This:
    “If you are married, you will not dies sick, miserable and alone.”

    No. One spouse will die before the other, sometimes years or months apart.

    Some spouses are left as “living widows” because their spouse develops Alzheimer’s and stay alive for a decade or longer with Alzheimer’s or other dementia. The spouses with dementia don’t recognize their spouse, and they at other times, sleep a lot, meaning the surviving spouse is left without companionship.

    One of my Aunts wound up being a widow in her fifties because her husband (my uncle) got hit by a car. He died after about two years in a nursing home (he was brain damaged).

    By the way, several months ago, I saw an article that said the opposite about marriage and sickness.

    IIRC, the article said married men divorce or dump their wife if the wife comes down with cancer and other illnesses.

    This is absurd (Crowder on marriage):
    “You won’t be fat.”

    There is more pressure on singles, especially females, to stay thin.

    We are told all the time (even in Christian advice for singles, sadly) that because men are visually wired (supposedly), they won’t want to date you if you are a fatty. So many single women work very hard at staying thin.

    I have a lifetime of jogging regularly and calorie counting, so it’s not much of an issue for me to stay thin in the first place, but I find the attitude shallow and rather sexist (Christian men are generally not really expected to stay trim in Christian singles advice from books, blogs, or sermons).

  32. Crowder on marriage:
    “If you are married, you will not dies sick, miserable and alone.”

    I’m not sure if this was the article I was thinking of-
    Why Marriage Is Good for Your Health — Until You Get Sick

    But while “marriage is good for health … its protective effect declines as people’s health declines,” says Zheng.

    It should be a moot point anyhow.

    Jesus Christ said other believers in Him should be on the same level of importance, or more so, than your flesh and blood family.

    The body of believers (other Christians) is supposed to help out and support everyone, and that would include the married helping the unmarried, when and if the unmarried need emotional or financial assistance, or whatever.

  33. Regarding Retha’s post.

    “Loudly, the one tells the other: “Don’t give one to her. She’s not a mother.”

    All Christian women who are doing the will of God are mothers:

    “For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
    – Jesus Christ, Matthew 12

    But I really think churches out to halt or diminish the “Mother’s Day” sermons.

    Motherhood gets confirmed 365 days of the year in American Christianity, either directly or indirectly (usually in the context of bashing the secular culture for aborti0n, declining birth rate, divorce, the fall of traditional marriage, or in the positive sense, in shout outs by preachers about they know how hard single motherhood is, motherhood is a woman’s greatest duty and calling in life, etc).

    I’ve yet to hear a preacher give a sermon called, “Let’s honor the childless today,” or, “Here’s to all the never married adults; step forward, you singles, so we can give each one of you a carnation and a gift certificate to Denny’s!”

    Retha said,

    And the church should take at least part of the blame for me still being alone. They taught me that husbands should be spiritual leaders.

    Yes they should.

    That, plus don’t forget other moronic Christian relationship advice, such as telling singles not to meet alone for dates. It is a common theme running through Christian books and blogs about dating.

    I was astounded to see in a book by Christian singles where they quoted a dating advice book by a Christian guy who told single males over the age of 30 stuff such as…

    Never to meet alone with a single woman, don’t get emotionally intimate with a woman, don’t take her out for dinners, no coffee dates. I think he said to keep all conversations with a single women under five minutes long.

    In essence, this author was telling single men to stay away from all single women.

    The author is clearly impervious to the simple logic that if a single man spends very little to no time around a single woman, and they don’t talk and get to know one another to determine if there are sparks or chemistry, they’re never. going. to. get. married.

    Marriage, according to those residing in the Land of Married Christians, happens by MAGIC. The groom and the bride just poof! appear before a preacher and pulpit out of the blue. No idea how they got there – God just transported them there?

  34. About Retha’s post (I didn’t want to make one big, long post, so here is part two). 🙂

    Really bad: Unasked for advice about singleness.

    And there’s a lot of it out there. I’ve seen all the ones on your list before.

    You’ll notice contradictions in some of the advice.

    The ones about, “Men are put off or scared by strong, independent, and financially solvent women,” but the same people will say, “Men are put off by clingy, needy women, and are worried the poor ones are gold diggers.”

    So… you’re supposed to be strong but be weak; be wealthy but be poor; be independent but be dependent.

    Oh yes, the married people who think the only qualities necessary when pairing up Christians singles is that they both 1. have a pulse and 2. both are Christians.

    Some of my favorites (that I don’t think were on Retha’s list):

    1. Wanting Marriage

    Married Christian person to unmarried Christian:
    “You should want to get married! Marriage is good! It’s such a shame today’s singles aren’t marrying.”

    Single person replies,
    “Oh I do want to get married! I don’t know why it hasn’t happened yet.”

    Married person:

    (Typical response 1a.)
    “You have to stop wanting it, or God won’t let it happen.”

    (Typical response 1b.)
    “When you stop looking that is when it will happen.”

    (Typical response 2.)
    “You’re making marriage into an idol. You must accept singleness and learn to be content with it, and then God will send you a spouse.”

    Confused single person:
    “But you just said marriage is good and that I should want it?”

    Married Christian person logic:
    “You should want marriage but not want it at the same time.”

    Single person thinks:
    “In what universe is that feat possible? I’m supposed to want something but not want it?” ❓

    2. Christian dating advice about looks:

    a. “Men are visually wired. They won’t date fatties or uglies. Wear lipstick and lose weight you fatty.”

    b. “Your value is in Jesus, not your weight! You’re beautiful on the inside, where it counts.”

    3. Prayer

    Single person to married:
    “Will you pray and ask God to provide me with a spouse?”

    Married person:
    “No. If it’s meant to be, God will send someone to you.”

    Single person:
    “Funny, that wasn’t your philosophy six months ago when you asked me to pray that God provide you with a new job, or a year ago, when you asked me to pray that God provide your niece with a bone marrow transplant.” 🙄

  35. dee wrote:

    For example, you know the one about a frog that will stay in the water until it dies if the heat is slowly turned up? Well, it is not true.

    Not a true story, but a piece of fiction to make a point.

    Similar to a parable. (Which themselves have been fought over truth-or-fiction.)

  36. Daisy wrote:

    Marriage, according to those residing in the Land of Married Christians, happens by MAGIC. The groom and the bride just poof! appear before a preacher and pulpit out of the blue. No idea how they got there – God just transported them there?

    According to all the Christianese Testimonies about “How I Met My Wife”, THAT’S EXACTLY HOW IT HAPPENS for God’s Speshul Pets.

  37. God never gave me a wife. That’s probably why I’m drifting further from the church and Christianity, and dating anyone I find appealing who’s also interested. No more limiting myself to Christians. And I’m no more unhappy than I was while ‘waiting’ for a wife and ‘devoting’ myself to God. Imagine that.

  38. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    According to all the Christianese Testimonies about “How I Met My Wife”, THAT’S EXACTLY HOW IT HAPPENS for God’s Speshul Pets.

    I wonder if the married Christians who teach this idiocy realize, when they reflect back on how they met their spouse, that they did indeed date him/her? Dollars to dough nuts they took their now-spouse out on dinner dates or for movies or coffee before getting married, yet have the gall to lecture singles not to do that? And expect us to get married anyway? The hypocrisy and blind spot of some married Christians is something else.

  39. M wrote:

    God never gave me a wife. That’s probably why I’m drifting further from the church and Christianity, and dating anyone I find appealing who’s also interested. No more limiting myself to Christians. And I’m no more unhappy than I was while ‘waiting’ for a wife and ‘devoting’ myself to God. Imagine that.

    I feel for you. I’m in the same situation. I give up on waiting for God to send me a Christian spouse and would be willing to seek relationships with non believers.

    I’m teetering into agnosticism with one foot still kind of in Christianity a little bit, but I relate to your situation and outlook.

    I’m willing to date and marry a Non Christian now.

    After seeing horrific stories of abuse by married Christian men in the news or on domestic abuse survivor sites, I don’t see where Christian guys are anymore trustworthy than Non Christians.

    The numbers also work against Christian single women, as there are not as many single men for all the single women.

    Some Christians are very unloving about this, and expect you to hinge your entire remaining life on one little portion of a verse that talks about “do not be unyoked to an unbeliever” to justify the idea that unmarried must remain alone for the rest of their lives.

    I have never been married, but I’ve seen Christians do the same thing to divorced people who are lonely and want to get remarried: tell them to stay single forever because remarrying is supposedly a sin.

    I have the feeling the Christians insisting on the letter of the Law in these matters would not themselves live up to either standard.

  40. M wrote:

    God never gave me a wife. That’s probably why I’m drifting further from the church and Christianity, and dating anyone I find appealing who’s also interested.

    Would you consider keeping TWW informed as you walk this path? I will be very interested in your experiences in this area. You are not the only one who has made this sort of decision.

  41. OKCupid had a depressing blog post http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-best-questions-for-first-dates/ discussing the best proxy questions for certain thorny topics. The ones I found most interesting:

    If you want to know if you and your date have the same political views, the best question was:

    Do you prefer the people in your life to be simple or complex?

    If the answer is simple, you tend to be conservative by 2:1. If the answer is complex, you tend to be liberal by 2:1

    That question was about 2/3 reliable in answering questions like:

    Should burning your country’s flag be illegal?
    Should the death penalty be abolished?
    Should gay marriage be legal?
    Should Evolution and Creationism be taught side-by-side in schools?

    Which are OKC’s more explicitly political questions

    Similarly, if you want to know whether your date is religious, ask:

    Do spelling and grammar mistakes annoy you?

    If the answer is no, you are probably (at 2:1 odds, again) at least moderately religious.

    Now these questions are based on OKC users, so there’s some self-selection going on to begin with. But I’ve always felt out of touch with religious people anyway, as the people I had the most fulfilling conversations with tended to be atheists and agnostics. While there are some intellectuals and philosophers among the Puritans (I loved Edwards) and Catholics, I found the vast majority of pew-sitters at the conservative churches I was a part of gave mere lip service to serious intellectual grappling with Christianity.

    The other part of it is that I was sick of trying to be a good Christian. Quiet time was never easy for me. Neither was prayer. I kept trying. The whole marriage (or rather, lack of) thing was what sent me over the edge, I think.

    The only thing keeping me from diving out of Christianity entirely is uncertainty as to whether Christianity is actually true. In which case I ought to just get over myself and keep trying to believe. But I’m finding that the less time I think about church and God, the more easily I stay away.

    Also, the whole idea of there being a God-shaped hole in my heart seems less true the more I think about it. the idea that other pleasures are fleeting in comparison. Well, if you think about spiritual disciplines, Dallas Willard makes a point that they need to be cultivated to be effective – you can’t be humble, devoted to God, etc, just out of the blue. You need to train yourself for it. How is that any different from any other physical or intellectual discipline? (It isn’t)

    Additionally, you can go to a rock concert or sporting event or whatever and feel community with other people and get that same ‘high’ as a religious experience. Or take drugs. Or any number of things. And they are transitory experiences, but then again so is the mountaintop retreat experience, and we’ve all read post and comments (and probably written some ourselves) about the impossibility of maintaining the emotions that go along with that. So how is the religious high different from the Christian high?

    So I’m not sure how I ever believed that Christian girls would look past my physical looks and care more about my character or spirituality or whatever, especially when I was judging them on looks. Every once in a long while I would see situations where that seemed to happen, but never for me. And when I did start to pay more attention to the way I looked and get in shape and whatnot, I started getting more attention – but then again, I got more from non-religious girls too. So what’s the difference?

    Emperor, meet your new outfit…

  42. dee wrote:

    Just call it a parable as opposed to a factoid. I actually believe that many people who use this example really believe it.

    I figure Evangelicals have lost the power of Story unless they tell the story as a Factoid.

    Chaplain Mike over at Internet Monk speculated that the changes of the Age of Reason and Industrial Revolution led to viewing the Bible as literal Spiritual Engineering Manual of Fact, Fact, Fact. We see this in hyperliteralism and the “Prove the Bible” fringe of Biblical Archaeology (including that type example of Fringe Archaeology, the Search for Noah’s Ark).

  43. Daisy wrote:

    Dollars to dough nuts they took their now-spouse out on dinner dates or for movies or coffee before getting married, yet have the gall to lecture singles not to do that? And expect us to get married anyway?

    Three-word solution: PATRIARCH. ARRANGED. COURTSHIPS.

  44. Daisy wrote:

    Confused single person:
    “But you just said marriage is good and that I should want it?”

    Married Christian person logic:
    “You should want marriage but not want it at the same time.”

    Single person thinks:
    “In what universe is that feat possible? I’m supposed to want something but not want it?”

    doublethink, comrade, doublethink.

  45. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Three-word solution: PATRIARCH. ARRANGED. COURTSHIPS.

    Well, my father is still alive.

    I wonder what kind of guy my dad would choose for me if he played this role?

    If my dad had a group of guys lined up, my dad would probably opt for the Elmer Fudd look-alike with the decent investments and bank account for me, and I’d be loudly whispering, “No dad, pick the young Mel Gibson look alike! Or even the young Robert Redford look alike!”

  46. @ Daisy:

    I think the better question is why his first thought when encountering an “effeminate” and “gay” male (which isn’t even true but it’s what he thought) was “he’ll get shot for it someday.” WTF…?!

    I’d also like to know where the author lives.

  47. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Three-word solution: PATRIARCH. ARRANGED. COURTSHIPS.

    HUG — I smell another “Christian formula for happiness.” My guess is that people who are enthusiastic about arranged marriages don’t have a history of it in their family.

    Arranged marriages can be terrible. They are done for land, money, religion, and status. And let’s look at it: It essentially says you cannot be trusted to choose your own spouse so one needs to be forced upon you (uh… chosen for you).

    The misery caused by forced marriage is incredible. In U.S. farming regions 80-100 years ago, arranged marriages were common. There’s a reason it died out in popularity everywhere but in Elisabeth Elliot’s books.

  48. @ M:
    M — I don’t think anyone needs to apologize for wanting the American Dream of a loving spouse, happy home, 2.3 children, and a good job.

    When love/marriage doesn’t work out, and the church adds on another helping of shame, blame, and ostracization, it’s common to feel that you are disqualified from God’s goodness. So why try?

    I divorced a million years ago and am now a mid-life single. I think we have to find loving friendships wherever we can. Like you, I’ve got close friends — some Christians, some agnostics — who are in the same boat. The key for me is connecting with positive, passionate people with good character who have something to live for.

    The other thing I have found helpful for myself is focusing on Jesus Christ rather than Christianity, and actually reading the Gospels and taking a break from everything else. Jesus is a compelling figure and he is not a marriage-worshiper. He has much higher priorities than that.

    Best wishes.

  49. Janey wrote:

    Arranged marriages can be terrible. They are done for land, money, religion, and status. And let’s look at it: It essentially says you cannot be trusted to choose your own spouse so one needs to be forced upon you (uh… chosen for you).

    Actually arranged marriages send the message: “We don’t care about your happiness. We want you to marry a person we can control, one who will guard the family interests the best.”

  50. Daisy wrote:

    Retha said,

    And the church should take at least part of the blame for me still being alone. They taught me that husbands should be spiritual leaders.

    Yes they should.

    That, plus don’t forget other moronic Christian relationship advice, such as telling singles not to meet alone for dates. It is a common theme running through Christian books and blogs about dating.

    I was astounded to see in a book by Christian singles where they quoted a dating advice book by a Christian guy who told single males over the age of 30 stuff such as…

    Never to meet alone with a single woman, don’t get emotionally intimate with a woman, don’t take her out for dinners, no coffee dates. I think he said to keep all conversations with a single women under five minutes long.

    In essence, this author was telling single men to stay away from all single women.

    The author is clearly impervious to the simple logic that if a single man spends very little to no time around a single woman, and they don’t talk and get to know one another to determine if there are sparks or chemistry, they’re never. going. to. get. married.

    I am always baffled when I see various churches imposing rules on older singles that were at best designed for teenagers. Then they wonder why there are so many single people (more than one would normally think).

    One example is the “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” book by Josh Harris. He wrote this account of his teenage life. It is just baffling how people think that what Josh Harris found he needed to do (in response to over dating) should be applied to all singles.

    Carolyn McCulley has a book titled “Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye?” In this book she talks about all these women that didn’t get married and had applied the “kissing dating goodbye” principles. Sadly she makes no connection between not getting married and the practice of “kissing dating goodbye.”

    I talk about this on my blog:

    http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/does-kissing-dating-goodbye-lead-to-kissing-marriage-goodbye/

  51. Dating Formula Books such as _I Kissed Dating Goodbye_ and _The Rules_ have one very good purpose, to help people set up sensible boundaries and to keep them from sharing too much too soon. I think it’s a helpful message these days now that online dating has tried to make singles little more than a commodity.

    But to live life keeping everything close to the vest, unwilling to express enthusiasm or reach out in camaraderie, etc., is just asking to be single forever.

    Of course, we all know there are charming narcissists, who know how to read people and say the right thing and get what they want.

  52. I don’t normally do this in the blogsphere for a variety of reasons, but indulge me while I quote a scrippie verbatim:

    Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees and teachers of the law, you hypocrites! For you load heavy burdens on mens’ backs, and do not lift a finger to help carry them.

    It grieves me to say that we, the Church, have significantly failed many struggling people. “Churches” (i.e. local para-church congregations separate from each other) are typically put together for people who are basically completely happy with life. They have decent jobs; they found no great difficulty in locating a partner; etc. Church provides the icing on the cake for them; a bit of pleasurable worship and spiritual stuff. To they unemployed, they offer no true help to get work, to the unwillingly single, no true help in finding a partner; just a load of rules these people have to follow that the contentedly successful church members did not.

    It’s tragic that so many Christians chastise others for wanting what they themselves enjoy. Those who look down on singles or otherwise tell people that “Jesus should be enough for you” are often jaw-droppingly blind to the number of things they depend on that are not “Jesus”. They have jobs and draw salaries from them rather than letting their provision be “Jesus”. When they’re hungry they don’t feed on “Jesus”, they eat food.

    I don’t fully know why, as a high-IQ Cambridge graduate, I have found it so difficult throughout my adult life to land paid work. On paper I shouldn’t need help to do something that normal people find trivially simple (“get a job”). But I do – and I have not found church to be a good source of help. It is equally true that a proportion of people who are perfectly capable of being good marriage partners do need help in finding one. It’s about time we gave them better than abuse, patronising pat answers and two-faced nonsense that we have never done ourselves.

  53. I was at Covenant LIfe Church when Josh Harris, who was maybe 19 or 20? when he arrived to be mentored by C.J., arrived with all his philosophies. It did not make the older singles happy to have his principles applied to us.

  54. @ Steve & Daisy:

    “Never to meet alone with a single woman, don’t get emotionally intimate with a woman, don’t take her out for dinners, no coffee dates. I think he said to keep all conversations with a single women under five minutes long. In essence, this author was telling single men to stay away from all single women.”

    “I am always baffled when I see various churches imposing rules on older singles that were at best designed for teenagers.”

    Baffled as well, though the above rules might be a little too extreme even for teenagers.

  55. @ Hester:

    Part of being a teenager is learning experience for adulthood. Learning involved mess and struggle. Not pleasant, but necessary — better for parents to allow some things to happen than to be afraid and shelter them.

  56. @ HUG:

    “Three-word solution: PATRIARCH. ARRANGED. COURTSHIPS.”

    Or this. It’s like the Energizer bunny – just keeps going and going and going and going and…

    http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2013/06/the-pre-courtship-questionnaire/

    Best excerpts:

    “On a scale of 1 to 10 how would you rate the worth of a woman?”

    “Are [women] only to speak when spoken to?”

    “If there are members of my family that are not Baptist, what type of relationship do you want to have with them?”

  57. I’m a little late to this party but I think I can sum up what a lot of us are thinking. Every single group wants to be welcomed by the church in a similar manner that is shown to the traditional nuclear family. We want equal treatment, not special treatment. That goes for singles, disabled, jobless, widowed, divorced, seniors, etc… We want a true church family where we are treated no worse or better for not being a member of a desirable, traditional nuclear family. As a single disabled woman, I want to be able to walk (or roll) into a church and receive the same warm welcome as the young couple with two kids behind me. It shouldn’t be that complicated.

  58. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    They have decent jobs; they found no great difficulty in locating a partner; etc. Church provides the icing on the cake for them;

    This is exactly what the study “No Money, No Honey, No Church”says about American Christianity. The researchers (who happen to be pro-marriage) say that in white churches, you attend to show you’ve arrived, that you are now respectable.

    Black and Hispanic churches in the U.S. are much more supportive and assume that their members are facing a wide variety of challenges, job, finances, marriage. That’s why (they claim) the white Evangelical church in the U.S. is in decline (lower marriage rates; 50% of working Americans earn less that $26k annually), but not the Black or Hispanic church.

  59. Hester wrote:

    @ Steve & Daisy:
    l
    “I am always baffled when I see various churches imposing rules on older singles that were at best designed for teenagers.”
    Baffled as well, though the above rules might be a little too extreme even for teenagers.

    elastigirl wrote:

    @ Hester:
    Part of being a teenager is learning experience for adulthood. Learning involved mess and struggle. Not pleasant, but necessary — better for parents to allow some things to happen than to be afraid and shelter them.

    Hester

    That is why I said “at best” for teenagers. At some point and time single men and women need to learn social skills with the opposite sex otherwise it will be hard to marry unless they have an arranged marriage. One old blog post the author talked about “regretting” kissing dating goodbye due to his lack of social skill as an older 20 something with single women.

    Elastigirl

    Teenagers certainly need some guidance in relationships with the opposite sex but do need to learn how to relate to the opposite sex vs. avoiding relating as groups that teach “kissing dating goodbye” seem to have.

  60. Former CLC’er wrote:

    I was at Covenant LIfe Church when Josh Harris, who was maybe 19 or 20? when he arrived to be mentored by C.J., arrived with all his philosophies. It did not make the older singles happy to have his principles applied to us.

    I am not sure how long you were at CLC but they practiced “kissing dating goodbye” to various degrees from the start. In 1978 Larry Tomczak gave a talk and later came out with a book that emphasized doing things with singles in groups vs. dating. He said at the time it wasn’t something that should be applied legalistically but it quickly became legalistic.

    Things might have somewhat eased up before Harris got there but I am sure with his book

  61. (continuing my last comment; was sent by mistake).

    I am sure things might have eased up before Harris arrived but am sure they got more restrictive when Harris’s book came out. Around 5 years ago Harris gave a message to his church about problems he saw with singles relating:

    http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/what-problems-joshua-harris-acknowledged-about-how-singles-relate-at-his-church-but-doesn’t-share-on-his-website/

    as I explain on this blog entry Harris hasn’t publicized these problems anywhere (like on his blog etc). Sad that he can’t make corrections.

  62. Janey wrote:

    I’ve mentioned the sociology professor with a Harvard Ph.D. who writes a lot about the myths of singleness. Her full-length book, Singled Out, includes a mountain of data debunking these lies.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bella-depaulo/single-people-myths_b_846461.html

    Thank, this is awesome! I can tell I’m going to get a lot of mileage out of Dr. Depaulo’s writings. It’s time to stir up some controversy (not here, in real life). 😀

  63. @ Steve240:

    “Around 5 years ago Harris gave a message to his church about problems he saw with singles relating”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    Steve,

    Josh Harris seems like he’s just a kid. How has he garnered this much credibility, as though he’s some guru?

  64. elastigirl wrote:

    Josh Harris seems like he’s just a kid. How has he garnered this much credibility, as though he’s some guru?

    I know i’m not Steve, but…

    Apostolic succession?

  65. Dee,

    There seems to be a special subset of single people who are excluded and dismissed. Those with the scarlet “D” – those who have been divorced. Maybe it’s another story for another time, but part of my being single in the church had to do with my divorce prior to becoming a Christian. It’s simply amazing how people can be treated who have been divorced.

  66. Steve Scott wrote:

    There seems to be a special subset of single people who are excluded and dismissed. Those with the scarlet “D” – those who have been divorced. Maybe it’s another story for another time, but part of my being single in the church had to do with my divorce prior to becoming a Christian. It’s simply amazing how people can be treated who have been divorced.

    Steve Scott — If churches realized that 1-in-4 evangelical Christians sitting in the pews was divorced, they would stop their jubilant sermons about divorcees and their kids being losers. Do they think our children want to attend a church where they are seen as being poor marriage partners. No thanks.

    Pastors should give the same number of sermons on divorce that they do on gluttony — and be just as careful about their word selection.

    Pastors offend a lot of people and spread a lot of falsehoods. If everyone at my old church who had been divorced left the church and stopped giving, the church would have difficulty recovering. I’ve had divorced people call my in tears after a strident divorce sermon. The insensitively from the pulpit is incredible.

    1. Truth: A recent survey found that about 60% of divorces are for very serious problems: adultery, drug addictions, alcohol addiction, verbal or emotional abuse, physical abuse, abandonment/failure to provide, etc. Only 7% said their divorce was because they fell out of love. See appendix page A-5: http://is.gd/PI97XF.

    2. Truth: Divorcees return to their normal level of happiness within 2 years of their divorce.

    3. Truth: Children bounce back much faster than their parents do. A Rutgers University presentation reported that kids adjust very well after their parents divorce. The researchers were surprised. You can find this PowerPoint by searching: Rutgers University OCT_31_MARITALSTATUS.ppt

    Source for the 1-in-4 claim:
    https://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/15-familykids/42-new-marriage-and-divorce-statistics-released

  67. Reasons for Divorce according to the survey “The Divorce Experience: Divorce at Mid-Life and Beyond,” (2004)

    Reasons given by WOMEN who divorced over age 40:

    17% – Adultery, cheating, infidelity
    23% – Emotional, physical, verbal abuse
    18% – Alcohol or drug addiction
    4% – Abandonment
    =
    62% of divorces are for very serious problems

    =============

    Reasons given by MEN who divorced over age 40:

    14% – Adultery, cheating, infidelity
    8% – Emotional, physical, verbal abuse
    12% – Alcohol or drug addiction
    5% – Abandonment
    =
    39% of divorces are for very serious problems

  68. @ elastigirl:

    “Josh Harris seems like he’s just a kid. How has he garnered this much credibility, as though he’s some guru?”

    Son of a founding member of the Christian homeschool movement, i.e. a member of the Inner Sanctum.

  69. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Steve240:
    “Around 5 years ago Harris gave a message to his church about problems he saw with singles relating”
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    Steve,
    Josh Harris seems like he’s just a kid. How has he garnered this much credibility, as though he’s some guru?

    Good question. Here is one person’s account of this “fad:

    http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2008/12/01/one-persons-historical-account-of-the-kissing-dating-goodbye-fad/

    It is shocking how many people followed what he wrote. Like with C.J. Mahaney Harris must have a certain charisma that enables this. I think even Harris was suprised at how well received his book was.

    Sadly at that time his book came out the internet and blogs were just beginning for most people and for whatever reason there wasn’t a lot of questioning. I am glad to see more questioning being done these days including about Harris’s book.

    It is baffling that people took what worked or was necessary for one person should apply to all singles. Harris had an issue with almost “overdating” and the social skills around single women while I am sure a lot of other singles don’t have those and need to develop them.

  70. Steve240 wrote:

    It is shocking how many people followed what he wrote. Like with C.J. Mahaney Harris must have a certain charisma that enables this. I think even Harris was suprised at how well received his book was.

    I have never seen Josh Harris speak in person, but I think that the homeschool community and conservative Christians in general love formulas. It keeps us from having to exercise faith that Jesus Christ will walk with us through ups and downs. It all goes back to the worst formula of all: “Life will be perfect when you become a Christian.”

    Decades before there was IKDG, there was “Fascinating Girlhood,” another formula book.

    On Facebook, I see young Christians from homeschool families talking about how precisely they follow each principle of IKDG, as if the rules will magically give them a great marriage.

    They obviously haven’t met the millions of Christians who played by the rules (no sex before marriage, courtship, submission, no “defrauding,” etc.) and ended up with disastrous marriages. I’m not saying the rules are bad, I’m saying that they are no substitute for discernment and wisdom. They won’t make a person with bad character good.

  71. @ Hester: Thank you for this. I might try to do a post on it. It is simply fascinating and you can tell a lot about legalism by reading it through.

  72. Steve240 wrote:

    Sadly she makes no connection between not getting married and the practice of “kissing dating goodbye.

    I agree. She bought into the concept hook, line and sinker and she may have paid for that.

  73. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    t’s tragic that so many Christians chastise others for wanting what they themselves enjoy. Those who look down on singles or otherwise tell people that “Jesus should be enough for you” are often jaw-droppingly blind to the number of things they depend on that are not “Jesus”.

    Well stated.

  74. Former CLC’er wrote:

    I was at Covenant LIfe Church when Josh Harris, who was maybe 19 or 20? when he arrived to be mentored by C.J., arrived with all his philosophies.

    So, a 19 year old guy, raised in a highly restrictive environment gets to tell people how to date? Is it true that some of the people in the Boy Meets Girl book, the sequel, got divorced and he is republishing the book without mentioning that little tidbit?

  75. Mandy wrote:

    As a single disabled woman, I want to be able to walk (or roll) into a church and receive the same warm welcome as the young couple with two kids behind me. It shouldn’t be that complicated.

    From what I can see, the church is falling down on the job. It tends to want the cute young couple with a several kids because the church likes the image of what they consider to be “wholesome.” The church is turning into its own version of the American dream and from what I can tell, Jesus was not anywhere near America.

  76. Steve Scott wrote:

    Those with the scarlet “D” – those who have been divorced. Maybe it’s another story for another time, but part of my being single in the church had to do with my divorce prior to becoming a Christian. It’s simply amazing how people can be treated who have been divorced.

    I believe that John Piper and others have encouraged this sort of demonization. Are you interested in writing a post about your personal experience? Hint, hint!!!

  77. Janey wrote:

    Pastors should give the same number of sermons on divorce that they do on gluttony — and be just as careful about their word selection.

    You mean those 400+ lb fifth-helping-at-the-church-potluck pastors ranting about some other (usually sexual) sin?

  78. Hester wrote:

    “Josh Harris seems like he’s just a kid. How has he garnered this much credibility, as though he’s some guru?”

    Son of a founding member of the Christian homeschool movement, i.e. a member of the Inner Sanctum.

    “All Animals Are Equal
    BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS!”
    — G.Orwell, “Animal Farm”

  79. Steve240 wrote:

    as I explain on this blog entry Harris hasn’t publicized these problems anywhere (like on his blog etc). Sad that he can’t make corrections.

    The Party Is Never Wrong.
    Ees Party Line, Comrade.

  80. Steve240 wrote:

    One example is the “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” book by Josh Harris. He wrote this account of his teenage life. It is just baffling how people think that what Josh Harris found he needed to do (in response to over dating) should be applied to all singles.

    Especially when that same Josh Harris has recently gone public about being sexually abused as a kid. Getting molested can really mess your head up when it comes to anything sexual. HOW MUCH BAGGAGE FROM THAT GOT INTO IKDG?

  81. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    You mean those 400+ lb fifth-helping-at-the-church-potluck pastors ranting about some other (usually sexual) sin?

    Yep. Or how about this?

    What if the pastor says this about guys who do porn?
    – Your children will do poorly in school – Your children will do drugs and have premarital sex – your children will have porn problems too that will destroy their chances of getting married – etc.

    Get what I mean? They pick on divorcees in a way they would not pick on… say…elders who do porn, Sunday school teachers who are gluttons, Bible study leaders who are gossips, choir members who have affairs…

  82. Janey wrote:

    This is exactly what the study “No Money, No Honey, No Church”says about American Christianity. The researchers (who happen to be pro-marriage) say that in white churches, you attend to show you’ve arrived, that you are now respectable.
    Black and Hispanic churches in the U.S. are much more supportive and assume that their members are facing a wide variety of challenges, job, finances, marriage.

    I did skim through the survey briefly (so what I’m saying here may have been covered therein without my noticing!). But perhaps Black/Hispanic churches have a culture of providing meaningful hands-on help with said problems, instead of supposing they can be solved from the pulpit. Approach 1 must deal with the cold empirical realities and learn from its mistakes. Whereas successful motivational speakers pushing Approach 2 are insulated from those realities, such that when their ideologies fall short in real life, they can blame others.

  83. Janey wrote:

    Get what I mean? They pick on divorcees in a way they would not pick on… say…elders who do porn, Sunday school teachers who are gluttons, Bible study leaders who are gossips, choir members who have affairs…

    That’s why Homosexuality(TM) is The Unpardonable Super-SIN.

    You always save your harshest denunciation for The Other.
    Never yourself.
    Rank Hath It’s Privileges, and God’s Speshul Pets are no exception.

  84. This discussion reminds me of the movie Mona Lisa where the girls are all about getting married and when asked what happens after that, they give a blank stare and say…”uh, and then I’ll be married.”

    All this fixation on marriage in the church tends to be about simply “being married” above everything else. That is why people are encouraged to marry young, singles pressured to marry ASAP, abused wives expected to stay ‘for a season’, 10,000 reasons why divorce is never ok, etc. etc.

    No one wants to talk about the fact that a couple can be in the legal state of marriage – even following proper gender roles – with nothing God-honoring or fruitful about the union.

  85. Ok the movie is Mona Lisa Smile and the phrase “proper gender roles” is tongue in cheek.

  86. @ Steve240: The “doing things in groups” (etc.) was, afaik, a widespread thing in charismatic circles. I know that I ran into it in more than one group during the 70s…

  87. dee wrote:

    The church is turning into its own version of the American dream and from what I can tell, Jesus was not anywhere near America.

    Well then you haven’t heard about how America IS in prophecy, and John Hagee can prove it with scripshur! It’s because of apostate libralz like you that THE LORD will judge America for letting herself be taken over by queerz & lezbeenz!!

  88. Initially I took Crowder’s statements as intended to be humorous. But I agree with the poster who said that fatness is more likely to be a result of enjoying dinners for two, especially if you have a partner who likes cooking. As for productivity, what on earth does that have to do with it? Happier people are more productive, but then marrieds should normally be spending time with their spouses and children which singles might be using to develop their career path, knowledge and professional skills – especially true if you are self-employed.

    “Not die sick, miserable and alone”? I wonder how the apostle Paul died? Can’t imagine him dying miserable somehow. As for dying sick, I think that can apply equally whether you’re married with a horde of descendants or single.

  89. Janey wrote:

    I have never seen Josh Harris speak in person, but I think that the homeschool community and conservative Christians in general love formulas. It keeps us from having to exercise faith that Jesus Christ will walk with us through ups and downs. It all goes back to the worst formula of all: “Life will be perfect when you become a Christian.”
    Decades before there was IKDG, there was “Fascinating Girlhood,” another formula book.
    On Facebook, I see young Christians from homeschool families talking about how precisely they follow each principle of IKDG, as if the rules will magically give them a great marriage.
    They obviously haven’t met the millions of Christians who played by the rules (no sex before marriage, courtship, submission, no “defrauding,” etc.) and ended up with disastrous marriages. I’m not saying the rules are bad, I’m saying that they are no substitute for discernment and wisdom. They won’t make a person with bad character good.

    Ironically in one book I read it quoted Josh Harris as decrying formulas but even if that is the case he hasn’t done much to stop people from using his “alternative” as a formula. Sadly so many times people apply his guidelines as hard and fast rules despite circumstances such as age maturity level etc. I am sure part of it is that Josh Harris doesn’t’ want to ruffle the feathers of the homeschooling crowd that have been some of his biggest fans and a source of revenue both for himself and his father’s business.

    Speaking about being responsible for people being single, one thing that people who promote purposeful dating/courtship etc. won’t share is that at least some of the time couples end op marrying before they have had enough time to determine if they are a good match. There is pressure on couples to either get married or stop seeing each other. After all one shouldn’t be “recreationally dating” etc.

    Sometimes with this type of pressure couples end up marrying prematurely only to find they aren’t the good match they thought they were during the initial stage of “courting.” I am sure some end up divorced or have a harder time staying married.

  90. numo wrote:

    @ Steve240: The “doing things in groups” (etc.) was, afaik, a widespread thing in charismatic circles. I know that I ran into it in more than one group during the 70s…

    I know of various groups that took this position especially in the 80’s with 2 larger college campus groups. My point was that Harris didn’t start the “kissing dating goodbye” philosophy but was the one whose book really promoted it etc.

  91. @Steve240 – I was at CLC for awhile before Josh,and yes, the policies were restrictive, but Josh put them into written format for the first time, and coming from someone so young, it wasn’t appreciated.

    @Dee – I can’t remember if I ever read Josh’s book all the way through. I probably did, but I have no idea who the people in it are, so I can’t help you there. I left probably 3 years after Josh came into the church.

  92. @ dee: See the archives over at Survivors. A lot of discussion on this topic came up 2 years ago. one of the people who was profiled in harris’ second book recently got remarried, fwiw.

  93. @ dee:

    It’s true that some are divorced. I don’t know if the republishing happened/is happening or not. He needs write a whole new book retracting what he said, not rewrite the book leaving out the fails. Doing that (rewriting) would make him no different than CJ before him — rewriting history and leaving out what doesn’t shed a “good” view — sheesh!

  94. @ Steve240:

    “Around 5 years ago Harris gave a message to his church about problems he saw with singles relating”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    thanks for your reply. I’m just struck by how he seems to have the power to shape (control) how people think and operate, and equally so how the people in his church seem like reeds in the wind (he says this, so i’ll bend that way… oh, now he says this? ok, i’ll bend that way)

    But I suppose this is old news.

    my observation may be an overstatement. but to the degree that it is accurate, is the climate still this way in this church?

  95. To be honest, I am really disappointed, disillusioned, and frankly worried for the future, regarding how the church treats marriage. I have single friends who feel exactly the same as the singles who have contributed stories to the blog this week. It’s unacceptable that marriage is seen as some be-all, end-all puzzle piece to the human being that completes you and makes you a “real man” or a “real woman.” I’m seriously tired of it.

    I also have a more selfish reason for being tired of it. I’ve been married for several years. The better part of a decade. Because of the culture of marriage that is endorsed by most churches, my husband and I actually have a hard time fitting in with other couples our age. We postponed having children, we still love to do the stuff we did in college, we still like hanging out individually with friends rather than having to do everything as couples, we each like to hang out with opposite sex friends, we make time for our friends instead of just saying “oops, sorry, too busy, I’m married” and we like to talk about things other than marriage, kids, and the mortgage. Every single one of these attitudes I have just listed is discouraged by the church culture surrounding marriage. Married couples are supposed to disappear inside their own little homes, be extremely suspicious of opposite sex friendships, and focus entirely on raising their kids and doing the infrequent “scheduled” get-together with other couples.

    It’s gotten to the point where my husband and I mostly hang out with single people.

    Sorry this post is full of so much vitriol. I’m sure in a couple of hours I’ll feel better. But I’ve just been really pissed off lately at how the church’s obsession with marriage ends up hurting everyone!

  96. Steve240 wrote:

    Speaking about being responsible for people being single, one thing that people who promote purposeful dating/courtship etc. won’t share is that at least some of the time couples end op marrying before they have had enough time to determine if they are a good match. There is pressure on couples to either get married or stop seeing each other. After all one shouldn’t be “recreationally dating” etc.

    I feel kind of bad for these couples. I imagine there is a lot of pressure to have a perfect marriage after they tie the knot and be poster children for the ‘right way’ of approaching dating. Can such couples say openly “We’re having problems and need help.” How many divorces among believers stem from trying to hide their marital problems behind a happy facade until it was too late? If the church just backed off the pressure of everyone being smiley perfect marriage all the time, people would be more willing to ask for help when they need it.

  97. numo wrote:

    @ dee: See the archives over at Survivors. A lot of discussion on this topic came up 2 years ago. one of the people who was profiled in harris’ second book recently got remarried, fwiw.

    The CLC couple (in Josh’s own church) that split are notes I believe as Meghan and Kerrin. Meghan is Kauflin’s daughter and she remarried in 2 years of divorcing. Lot of discussion on Survivors about how the rules seemed to change regarding remarriage for a leader’s daughter and even the group’s advice on obeying a husband since this husband wasn’t toeing the SGM Line.

    In addition to this couple divorcing there was sadly another couple featured in Josh’s “Boy Meets Girl” book that divorced. Thus we have 2 featured couples whose marriages didn’t work out. Guess it isn’t as perfect as Harris and others will lead you to believe.

  98. At a forum today, a woman posted about one of her husband’s former groupies (from when he was in a band twenty years ago, when he was single) contacted him via Facebook and commented about getting today for lunch. It wasn’t a private post, it was public. Many of the women immediately became suspicious of her, just like Daisy keeps commenting here, and thought she was out to steal him away from his wife.

    Thankfully, a few people with common sense later posted that publicly commenting about getting together isn’t suspicious. Some suggested the man respond with “Great, let’s see when my wife is free. I’m sure she’d like to meet you.”

    I hadn’t noticed the attitude of “single women are out to steal my husband” until I read this post. Now I understand what Daisy is talking about.

  99. Steve240 wrote:

    In addition to this couple divorcing there was sadly another couple featured in Josh’s “Boy Meets Girl” book that divorced. Thus we have 2 featured couples whose marriages didn’t work out. Guess it isn’t as perfect as Harris and others will lead you to believe.

    The couple that wrote “Open Embrace,” a protestant diabtribe against contraception wound up divorcing after a couple years. They, too, were about 20 and newly married when they wrote about NFP and the wonders it does for marriages. After a few years of marriage and a couple kids, they divorced, citing the ridiculous amount of abstinence required in their case. (Wouldn’t it have been better to admit they were wrong and use a c0ndom instead of getting divorced?)

    I heard somewhere once that in Jesus’s day, men couldn’t be rabbis until age 30, which is why he waited until then to start his ministry. Maybe there is some wisdom in that. Maybe we should stop buying books written by people too young to know what they are talking about.

  100. @ Steve Scott:

    I do think some churches and segments of Christianity treat divorced people like scum, which is wrong, and I don’t like it, but at least divorced are acknowledged to exist.

    Churches sometimes mention divorce from the pulpit (whether to condemn, complain about it, or remind that there is forgiveness for it), and there are “divorce care recovery” groups but nothing for the never- married adults.

    If you are past your 30s and have never married, never had [T]ex or not had children, you don’t usually factor into anything.

    If you mention when asked (even at church or church functions), “are you married/ have kids?” and say “No, never” the person gets quiet real fast and doesn’t know how to talk to you after. You’re made to feel like a freak. Some suspect there may be something wrong with you, or you must be homoTexual.

    I actually saw an editorial a few years ago where a woman wrote about how some women marry knowing it wont’ last because to be divorced is considered less weird or bad than never having made it to the alter to start with. And this was a Non Christian article.

    There’s even a bias against never married adults in Non Christian culture at times.

    I can’t find the particular page I was thinking of, but this looks similar:
    Do Single Women Face Spinster Stigma?

    Single women comprise the fastest-growing segment of the American population, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, with 42 percent of women 18 and older never married, divorced or widowed.

  101. Janey wrote:

    the church would have difficulty recovering. I’ve had divorced people call my in tears after a strident divorce sermon. The insensitively from the pulpit is incredible.

    Preacher Charles Stanley (former SBC president, I think) and preacher of a huge Baptist church for years now with a television show that airs every weekly infamously said years ago that if he ever divorced, he would step down from the pulpit.

    When Stanley’s wife later divorced him, he refused to step down from the pulpit.

    It’s interesting to me how Christians can be so vehemently anti-whatever until it happens to them personally or one of their close loved ones.

    I’ve seen this play out not just with divorce, but with things such as mental health problems, or homoTexuality*, or with other issues. -*(put the letter “S” in place of the “T.” Sometimes the word “[T]ex” seems to trip off the moderating bot.)

    Preacher John Hagee of a big church in San Antonio is divorced. (He also has a television show that is aired daily on TBN, and I’ve watched many episodes over the years.)

    According to online reports, Hagee’s second wife was his mistress at his previous church.

    Hagee still rails and screams during some sermons, with a vein throbbing from his forehead, against divorce, but he’s never mentioned in one of his anti divorce rants that he is divorced too.

  102. @ sad observer:

    “Every single one of these attitudes I have just listed is discouraged by the church culture surrounding marriage. Married couples are supposed to disappear inside their own little homes, be extremely suspicious of opposite sex friendships, and focus entirely on raising their kids and doing the infrequent ‘scheduled’ get-together with other couples.”

    In my experience it also kills volunteerism dead. (At least it seems to now – didn’t always in decades past. Some sociologist should study that one too.) And when your church/homeschool group/whatever runs largely on volunteer efforts, this kinda makes the wheels stop turning. These same people then promptly complain about how nothing is getting done and ask why “someone” (read: never, never them) isn’t doing XYZ.

    How do you teach your children to serve if you never do? And where does it say that Christian service is no longer required because you got married and/or had kids?

    And now I also must apologize for vitriol.

  103. Here’s part of another post in the thread about the former band groupie:

    “DH and I have chosen as a couple to not invite the past into our marriage. Meaning that we don’t restart or maintain relationships with folks of the opposite gender from our single days.”

    Se went on to say that having a blanket policy of cutting off opposite gender friends is easier than sorting through who might be a theat to the marriage and who isn’t.

  104. Janey wrote:

    They obviously haven’t met the millions of Christians who played by the rules (no sex before marriage, courtship, submission, no “defrauding,” etc.) and ended up with disastrous marriages.

    I played by all the rules and never got married at all but had hoped to be.

    I was told from my pre-teen years in Christian teaching that if I did ‘X,’ ‘Y,’ ‘Z,’ God would in his timing, send me a spouse. It didn’t happen.

  105. @ Kolya:

    What’s even sadder about the “sick, miserable and alone” thing is that there are a lot of marriages that break up because of issues surrounding cancer, etc. Crowder seems to have overlooked the fact that some people don’t or won’t stick around for the sickness part of “in sickness and in health.”

  106. @ Hoppy:

    “‘DH and I have chosen as a couple to not invite the past into our marriage. Meaning that we don’t restart or maintain relationships with folks of the opposite gender from our single days.’ She went on to say that having a blanket policy of cutting off opposite gender friends is easier than sorting through who might be a theat to the marriage and who isn’t.”

    That seems to be the textbook definition of a jerk to me.

  107. Hester wrote:

    In my experience it also kills volunteerism dead. (At least it seems to now – didn’t always in decades past. Some sociologist should study that one too.)

    I am much younger than most of you here, but I would guess that volunteerism is down largely because so many more married mothers are working and because wages haven’t kept up with expenses. Are some of you here seeing people not volunteering because they don’t want to be around opposite gendered people?

  108. dee wrote:

    It tends to want the cute young couple with a several kids because the church likes the image of what they consider to be “wholesome.

    That may be part of it, but I also wonder (and I am a life long Republican and right wing person) if “the family values” stuff was used by some right wing politicians to get the religious voting base in a tizzy, to get their support in elections, and then the “family values” stuff trickled down into conservative Christian denominations / churches.

    It is amazing how many American Christians put “family” (their biological family) or “family values” right under “God” in their list of priorities, but Christ did not teach that.

    There are verses that say a person should care for his biological family, but the “family of Christ” (other believers, who might not be flesh and blood relation) are supposed to be under Christ, with Christ being #1 priority.

    There is this assumption by a lot of Christians that putting biological family first is godly or the Christian thing to do.

  109. Hester wrote:

    Crowder seems to have overlooked the fact that some people don’t or won’t stick around for the sickness part of “in sickness and in health.”

    I wonder if there is any data about whether men are more likely to leave sick wives than the reverse.

  110. Daisy wrote:

    That may be part of it, but I also wonder (and I am a life long Republican and right wing person) if “the family values” stuff was used by some right wing politicians to get the religious voting base in a tizzy, to get their support in elections, and then the “family values” stuff trickled down into conservative Christian denominations / churches.

    Considering how people seem to get politics and religion confused, it wouldn’t surprise me. Think of how many churches have rallies for soldiers and things of that sort. Christians who are skeptical of the morality of most wars are viewed as naive pacifists by many. It’s funny how “following the money trail” to see who benefits from endless wars brand people naive.

  111. Muff Potter wrote:

    dee wrote:
    The church is turning into its own version of the American dream and from what I can tell, Jesus was not anywhere near America.
    Well then you haven’t heard about how America IS in prophecy, and John Hagee can prove it with scripshur! It’s because of apostate libralz like you that THE LORD will judge America for letting herself be taken over by queerz & lezbeenz!!

    Muff, in that context you spell LOORD with two “O”s.
    Just like you spell JEESUS with two “E”s.
    And both spellings are bright red warning flags.

  112. HoppyTheToad wrote:

    I wonder if there is any data about whether men are more likely to leave sick wives than the reverse.

    Didn’t Pat Robertson once give his blessing to that?
    Or get seriously blindsided by an unexpected question and put his foot in his mouth?

  113. Kristin wrote:

    This discussion reminds me of the movie Mona Lisa where the girls are all about getting married and when asked what happens after that, they give a blank stare and say…”uh, and then I’ll be married.”

    All this fixation on marriage in the church tends to be about simply “being married” above everything else.

    When the subject surfaced at Internet Monk last year, one woman’s comment told of Christian dates where the man kept talking about how good a provider and father he could be; she said “He was looking for A Wife(TM), and I was just the necessary piece of equipment.”

    I commented on that being a result of the high-pressure to Get Married (the Christianese equivalent of “You’re not really grown-up until you’ve gotten laid). So much pressure to marry NOW, and you’ll grab in desperation for any “necessary piece of equipment” to do so. I didn’t really blame the guy all that much; he was probably just reacting to the high-pressure to Marry and got desperate.

    Another (male) commenter in that same IMonk thread coined the phrase “Then you get married and are finally allowed to sit at the grown-ups’ table with all the other grown-ups.” (Again, not much difference from the “you’re not really an adult unless you’re sexually active” I encountered during my Twenties. Like “Married” is just Christianese for “Sexually Active” and the only difference is there’s a ring and wedding involved.)

    Wasn’t there supposed to be some difference (other than semantics) between the Kingdom of God and The World(TM)?

  114. Daisy wrote:

    There is this assumption by a lot of Christians that putting biological family first is godly or the Christian thing to do.

    It sure is for all those Fundagelical preachers who inherited their churches from their pastor Daddies. It’s been joked that the best way to become a Celebrity Fundagelical pastor is to be born the son of a Celebrity Fundagelical/Megachurch pastor. And the chance rises to near-100% if your name differs from that of your pastor/father’s only by the addition of “Jr.”

  115. @ HoppyTheToad:

    I’m not sure how to answer the second part of your post, but one thing I’ve brought up before is that a lot of churches don’t tailor jobs for the unmarried, which cuts down on a lot of volunteering possibilities.

    I’m an introvert. I am not interested, or comfy around, children. Yet, because I’m an unmarried woman, it is assumed I have lots of free time and would love nothing more than to minister to church children or babies.

    The reality is, I’m a bit of a tech in one area and a loner who is more at ease primarily alone, but when around people, around adults, not children.

    But do churches want to find an area where my particular skills and talents can be put to use?

    No. They don’t care if God gifted me with ‘X,’ or if my interest is in “Y,” they think all women should be crammed into doing ‘Z.’ (usually church nursery work)

    As to your question, as I said, I don’t know how to answer that specifically, but in my readings about singles, I’ve read about some far- out, weird, totally unnecessary mistreatment of unmarried women, because of Christian gender role stereotyping and a steep fear of pre-marital [T]ex.

    I read in one book by Christian authors that an unmarried adult Christian women went to work for a Christian company. She thought her single status would be a bonus, but it created problems.

    When her car broke down, she called a male co-worker to help her out. He was in the area. He refused because she is single, he is married.

    Then, she had to book hotel rooms for a business trip. Her male co-workers balked when they found out she got them all hotel rooms. She said, “but we are each in separate rooms, my room is not even on same floor as yours.”

    The males said, “That doesn’t matter. It still looks bad. It is risky.” So she was told to get another hotel room in another hotel building from her married, Christian male co-workers.

    I’m shocked her coworkers didn’t make her get a room in another building in another city, or in another nation. Or on another planet.

    I find it rather sad and frustrating that Christians are perpetuating these awful stereotypes about each other and about [T]ex.

    There’s this assumption under-lying these stereotypes that married Christian males are thoroughly [T]exually undisciplined, borderline would-be rap1sts, who will attack an unmarried woman if left alone with her five minutes.

    There is also an assumption that all unmarried Christian women (and Non Christian ones) are sleazy harlots with unbridled appetites for [T]ex who specifically seek out married men to bed. So you married ladies can’t trust us single ladies around your men folk, better keep the married men folks locked up and away from us.

  116. HoppyTheToad wrote:

    I wonder if there is any data about whether men are more likely to leave sick wives than the reverse.

    This talks about a similar issue:

    The lonely generation: Late-life divorce. Husbands lost to dementia. Or marriages that are just empty shells

    For the married people who think they have it made right now because they’re married, they look down on single women, or are suspicious of single women, and as HUG says (from an old Glenn Fry song, paraphrasing), the attitude from some married women to the singles ones is, “I got mine, scr3w you, you’re on your own,” well, one day your spouse may die.

    Or he may get dementia. You will be all alone too, just like unmarried adult women are now. And you will want support and friendship.

    I have several aunts. One of them was divorced many years ago, and she never remarried. Her only adult son was killed. She is alone.

    Another aunt of mine, her husband died in his 50s after injuries from a car accident, and she is still alone (though she does have living adult children).

    If you are a married lady now, your husband may not always be there.

    When or if your husband dies before you, and you find yourself lonely, in need of help, and you seek out church people, don’t be surprised when you find them un-interested, or if the married ladies brush you off because they treat you like you are a harlot who wants to steal their husband.

    That’s what never married and some divorced women already face in Christian culture now.

  117. Daisy wrote:

    but at least divorced are acknowledged to exist…there are “divorce care recovery” groups but nothing for the never- married adults.
    If you are past your 30s and have never married, never had [T]ex or not had children, you don’t usually factor into anything.
    If you mention when asked (even at church or church functions), “are you married/ have kids?” and say “No, never” the person gets quiet real fast and doesn’t know how to talk to you after. You’re made to feel like a freak.

    Daisy, I can’t even imagine.

  118. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Didn’t Pat Robertson once give his blessing to that?

    Yes.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qt_JCnRdCQ

    But I bet Robertson would insist if the genders were reversed, that he thinks a good, godly, Christian wife stay with her dementia-afflicted husband.

    Robertson does that when women write to him about their husbands having affairs or whatever, he puts the blame on the wives, saying they must be fat or ugly, and if they’d just pretty themselves up, their husbands wouldn’t stray.

  119. The biggest problem is that I used to believe the church would be different from the world. Now that I’ve realized it isn’t, I don’t see the point of believing…

  120. “I heard somewhere once that in Jesus’s day, men couldn’t be rabbis until age 30, which is why he waited until then to start his ministry. Maybe there is some wisdom in that. Maybe we should stop buying books written by people too young to know what they are talking about.” HoppyTheToad

    Amen to this!!

  121. @ Hoppy:

    I’m actually 23 and my comment was based on the consistent behavior of Christian homeschool moms. My mom served for 10+ years in our homeschool group so I got to watch a lot of them growing up. Some of them unfortunately have a whopper of a martyrdom complex. (Note: if you’re a homeschool mom, I’m not saying this applies to you personally!)

    Also the volunteers at the churches we have gone to (mainline Lutheran) have been mostly 50+ empty-nesters. With a few notable exceptions, of course – including one childless married lady who was DCF and was the opposite of ostracized, so I have seen it done well. (She and her husband have now adopted two little boys.)

    My reference to decades past was based on stories from my grandmother, as well a general awareness of history and how much volunteer/charity/etc. effort churches used to do that probably couldn’t or wouldn’t, and in any case often doesn’t, get accomplished now.

    And no, none of these moms worked outside the home. I never heard anyone say they didn’t want to be around the opposite sex, but it was usually just other moms anyway so that probably wouldn’t have been a huge concern. The reasons revolved more around being with family, kids, dates with the husband, etc. Which I don’t mean to devalue, but I’ve definitely seen more than my fair share of family-as-idol thinking.

  122. @ Daisy:

    “Robertson does that when women write to him about their husbands having affairs or whatever, he puts the blame on the wives, saying they must be fat or ugly, and if they’d just pretty themselves up, their husbands wouldn’t stray.”

    Apparently he doesn’t realize that this is also insulting to husbands/men, because it says that they care about nothing except Tex and how hot their woman is?

  123. Addendum @ Hoppy:

    Your observations about married working mothers, however, may be very true in the non-evangelical population.

  124. HoppyTheToad wrote:

    After a few years of marriage and a couple kids, they divorced, citing the ridiculous amount of abstinence required in their case. (Wouldn’t it have been better to admit they were wrong and use a c0ndom instead of getting divorced?)

    Astonishing. Their response to the strain of too much abstinence was… total abstinence? Reminds me of an old joke that runs roughly thus:

    Homophobic man to friend I’ve started keeping a grenade in my pocket.
    Friend …er… why’s that?
    Homophobe Next time that q**** O’Brien tries groping my *****, I’ll blow his ****** fingers off!

  125. M wrote:

    The biggest problem is that I used to believe the church would be different from the world. Now that I’ve realized it isn’t, I don’t see the point of believing…

    I can relate to that.

    So can the lady who was quoted in this page:

    Exit Interview: Leaving Christianity

  126. Hester wrote:

    Apparently he doesn’t realize that this is also insulting to husbands/men, because it says that they care about nothing except Tex and how hot their woman is?

    That is true, a lot of insulting false ideas about women also have a boomerang effect and implicate males as well.

    Kind of like the old notion that unmarried Christian women cannot be trusted around married Christian guys.

    Let’s suppose I (I am a single woman) was in fact a bimbo who likes to tempt married Christian men – are people who believe in this stereotype about unmarried women saying that Christian married guys are so immoral, perverse, weak, or undisciplined that they couldn’t turn an unmarried women down who makes a pass at them? Because that’s pretty much the reverse of the female stereotype is indicating, when it is turned on the male.

  127. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Astonishing. Their response to the strain of too much abstinence was… total abstinence? Reminds me of an old joke that runs roughly thus:

    I always grin -or roll my eyes- when married Christian couples complain they’re not getting enough [T]ex.

    Try being in your early 40s (like me), or older, and having zero [T]ex, and the number of times you’ve had it over your life is zero.

    Then come to complain to me that your spouse only wants to “do it” once a month, or once a decade. 😆

  128. Picking on one of Daisy’s comments earlier about single women being pigeon-holed into certain roles, especially childcare, I worked in some form of childcare at my church from the age of 11 to 21. That’s 10 years of changing diapers, cleaning up after toddlers, getting puked on, the whole nine yards. That was the role given to me by my church. And guess what? I have zero desire to change another diaper or even have kids. I was burned on out the entire experience because I was in effect a mother figure for ten years. And if I wasn’t serving in the church nursery, I was in the church kitchen doing whatever needed to be done. Not once during my time at that church did I get to participate in an event without being treated like a servant. I don’t know if anybody else has had a similar experience. We need to be extra vigilant about giving volunteers a rest and rotating people through positions so that nobody becomes burned out. I know that I will never volunteer for child care again, even if it is expected of me.

  129. Hester wrote:

    The reasons revolved more around being with family, kids, dates with the husband, etc. Which I don’t mean to devalue, but I’ve definitely seen more than my fair share of family-as-idol thinking.

    Okay, now I see what you mean. I agree that many moms in the “Christian homeschooling movement” do idolize family (as compared to moms, Christian or not, that homeschool for primarily academic reasons like I do).

    When I was on bed rest for nine weeks, apparently it never occurred to the moms at my former church to come visit after their husband was done working for the day – or even to hire a babysitter for a few hours so they could visit during the day. The ones who visited were the two moms with only two kids. These moms were with their kids all the time, and several even had husbands who worked from home, so it’s not like visiting for an hour would’ve been a big sacrifice. That church had nobody over 55 or so, so they weren’t spread thin from visiting elderly members, either.

  130. Mandy wrote:

    That’s 10 years of changing diapers, cleaning up after toddlers, getting puked on, the whole nine yards. That was the role given to me by my church. And guess what? I have zero desire to change another diaper or even have kids. I was burned on out the entire experience because I was in effect a mother figure for ten years.

    I expect a similar thing to happen to the oldest daughters of quiverful families. I briefly knew one woman, age 21 at the time, who was the oldest of eight kids. She was adament about having no more than three kids and she absolutely wasn’t going to homeschool them.

  131. @ Mandy:

    “And if I wasn’t serving in the church nursery, I was in the church kitchen doing whatever needed to be done. Not once during my time at that church did I get to participate in an event without being treated like a servant. I don’t know if anybody else has had a similar experience.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    yes, beware servanthood in church (or in my father-in-law’s kitchen).

    A willing servant’s heart doesn’t get to go the party. My father-in-law had a special dinner party for his family. I felt a kind of honor to help him do this or that. Before I knew it I was the go-to girl for everything, while every-other family member (including father-in-law) was content to lounge in the living room with their drinks (which I had just served & was then tasked with the next thing).

    no, i’m not bitter.

    hmph

  132. Janey wrote:

    Steven Crowder says, “Marry and you won’t be fat”?
    He’s actually 100% wrong. Being overweight is highly correlated with being married, not with being single.
    I know he’s wrong about several other claims, but I’ve got to run out and live my very exciting single life, and I don’t have time to look it up.
    Crowder is typical of the pastors who create fake stats to shame singles.
    I’ve mentioned the sociology professor with a Harvard Ph.D. who writes a lot about the myths of singleness. Her full-length book, Singled Out, includes a mountain of data debunking these lies.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bella-depaulo/single-people-myths_b_846461.html

    While I was in the middle of my divorce, Dobson put out an article with some of those claims.
    Now try to hold that in the same brain with their teaching that “Remarriage is wrong, evil, adulterous, and probably causes adult acne.”
    Sigh. You just can’t win, so I opted for remarriage. I already have adult acne.

  133. Daisy wrote:

    Preacher Charles Stanley (former SBC president, I think) and preacher of a huge Baptist church for years now with a television show that airs every weekly infamously said years ago that if he ever divorced, he would step down from the pulpit.

    When Stanley’s wife later divorced him, he refused to step down from the pulpit.

    It’s interesting to me how Christians can be so vehemently anti-whatever until it happens to them personally or one of their close loved ones.

    So very true.

  134. M wrote:

    The biggest problem is that I used to believe the church would be different from the world. Now that I’ve realized it isn’t, I don’t see the point of believing…

    M — You’re very welcome to do your questioning here. We all have our frustrations with churches. Hang out with us.

  135. Janey wrote:

    Janey wrote:

    Actually arranged marriages send the message: “We don’t care about your happiness. We want you to marry a person we can control.”

    Russell Moore of the SBC actually USED this as a reason why Christians shouldn’t marry non-Christians…because the church can’t DISCIPLINE a non-Christian spouse! I can’t make this stuff up!

  136. Mike wrote:

    Janey wrote:
    Janey wrote:
    Actually arranged marriages send the message: “We don’t care about your happiness. We want you to marry a person we can control.”

    Russell Moore of the SBC actually USED this as a reason why Christians shouldn’t marry non-Christians…because the church can’t DISCIPLINE a non-Christian spouse! I can’t make this stuff up!

    That’s unbelievable. The arrogance of some people is astonishing.

  137. Hester wrote:

    Apparently he doesn’t realize that this is also insulting to husbands/men, because it says that they care about nothing except Tex and how hot their woman is?

    Could be projection. Look how many CELEBRITY Megachurch Pastor types have 42DD Trophy Wives.

  138. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Reminds me of an old joke that runs roughly thus:
    Homophobic man to friend I’ve started keeping a grenade in my pocket.
    Friend …er… why’s that?
    Homophobe Next time that q**** O’Brien tries groping my *****, I’ll blow his ****** fingers off!

    Heard of something like that in “News of the Weird” once. Guy got busted in New York City with about a dozen pipe bombs on his person. Said he was packing them on the subway “for self-defense”.

    I’m still scratching my head as to just how you use a pipe bomb for self-defense. Light and throw at any threat, like that Iranian bomber who got himself on “Thailand’s Dumbest Criminals” that way? Or threaten to suicide-bomb with it if he doesn’t back off? (Though you only need one pipe bomb for the latter…)