"Humility is honestly assessing ourselves in light of God's holiness and our sinfulness."
C.J. Mahaney
Humility: True Greatness (p. 22)
When Dee told me she would be discussing Jim Collins' popular book Good to Great in our current series on authoritarian leadership in Christendom, I remembered that C.J. Mahaney had used this bestseller as a launching pad for his thoughts on humility. He begins his book Humility: True Greatness as follows:
Chapter 1 – The Promise of Humility (pages 17-18)
"In a culture that so often rewards the proud–a world quick to admire and applaud the prideful, a world eager to bestow the label "great" on these same individuals–humility occasionally attracts some surprising attention.
Take, for example, the bestselling book Good to Great. Since 2001, the leadership manual from Jim Collins has become one of the most popular and influential in the business world. I rarely meet a leader who hasn't read it. The book is driven by this question: Can a good company become a great company, and if so, how? To find the answer, Collins and a team of researchers spent five years studying eleven corporations that had made the leap from being merely good companies to being great ones.
I had the chance to hear Jim Collins speak on this topic to an audience of pastors and business leaders. In his presentation, Collins identified two specific character qualities shared by CEOs of these good-to-great companies.
The first was no surprise: These men and women possessed incredible professional will–they were driven; willing to endure anything to make their company a success.
But the second trait these leaders had in common wasn't something the researchers expected to find: These driven leaders were self-effacing and modest. They consistently pointed to the contribution of others and didn't like drawing attention to themselves. "The good-to-great leaders never wanted to become larger-than-life heroes," Collins writes. "They never aspired to be put on a pedestal or become unreachable icons. They were seemingly ordinary people quietly producing extraordinary results."
When Collins interviewed people who worked for these leaders, he says they "continually used word like quiet, humble, modest, reserved, shy gracious, mild-mannered, self-effacing, understated, did not believe his own clippings; and so forth" to describe them. (Good to Great, p. 27)"
Interestingly, Mahaney and his colleagues revamped PDI into Sovereign Grace Ministries a year after Good to Great was published. Coincidence perhaps? Mahaney then informs his readers that Good to Great has 'severe limitations' since it is not 'rooted in a biblical worldview'. Was that Mahaney's selling strategy for his own book? On pages 21-22, he writes:
WHAT IS HUMILITY?
"For me, Jim Collins's book was an encouraging reminder that even in a world that celebrates the proud, humility is still valued. But books like Good to Great have severe limitations; they can take us only so far in understanding humility because they're not rooted in a biblical worldview. Our definition of humility must be biblical and not simply pragmatic, and in order to be biblical it must begin with God. As John Calvin wrote, "It is evident that man never attains to a true self-knowledge until he has previously contemplated the face of God, and come down after such contemplation to look into himself.
That's where the following definition can help us: Humility is honestly assessing ourselves in light of God's holiness and our sinfulness.
That's the twin reality that all genuine humility is rooted in: God's holiness and our sinfulness. Without an honest awareness of both of these realities (and we'll reflect on both throughout the book), all self-evaluation will be skewed and we'll fail to either understand or practice true humility. We'll miss out on experiencing the promise and the pleasures that humility offers.
That's why I want to direct you to God's help for evaluating your life honestly, to understand whether you're growing in the humility that draws His gaze and attracts more of His grace."
What we have been witnessing from the Calvinista camp in recent months could not be characterized as humility. Instead, we have been observing an incredible display of arrogance by these so-called leaders from the T4G statement (which has subsequently disappeared), to The Gospel Coalition statement, to the e-mail from Wayne Grudem (via his assistant) to Todd Wilhelm.
In the wake of the SGM debacle, I believe it is important to journey back in time and see from whence some of these leaders have come. Seven years ago Mark Dever introduced his good buddy C.J. Mahaney at the very first Together for the Gospel conference (2006). Mahaney's message was called "Watch Your Life". In all likelihood, a good number of attendees did not know much about Mahaney. Here is a significant portion of what they heard from Mark Dever:
"It (meeting C.J. Mahaney) was one of the highlights of my Christian ministry life, not because I knew much at all about C.J. See, I wasn't meeting a celebrity. It's the Christ-like brother that I encountered, which just struck me and the Lord has used I'm sure to bless anyone who he entrusts to my care. C.J. has affected me I think as much as anyone I've ever known with his joy that is obvious. It's an encouragement even when you're up here preaching. You know it's certainly even more of an encouragement I think when you're speaking with him. My family loves it when they know C.J.'s gonna come. They just smile cause they know C.J.'s gonna be around. He is incredibly generous in so many ways that it would be embarrassing even maybe for him for me to tell you. His humility is obvious. He's the right one to write this book. As I said C.J. Mahaney is not humble, at least that's what he'll tell you, and that's one reason he's so well qualified to write this book. He is a model of someone who seems to live in gratitude, who seems to live in the knowledge of what God has done for him, and that is infectious. God uses it hugely. Combined with this is extraordinary leadership. The movement of Sovereign Grace churches that has been raised up in no small part through C.J.'s leadership has to be one of the most exciting movements for me to look at because of the way the character of Christ is so obvious in you brothers. It reflects I think not fundamentally C.J. but the Lord Jesus Christ. But the Lord has used C.J. to do that, and I am so thankful for that. And that's why it's so appropriate that he comes and he speaks to us about what he's going to this morning about application. One of the things that has struck me again and again. I mean just look at the books they produce. Thank you Josh. You know. Thank you C.J. Thank you C.J. I mean what is it – it's applying biblical doctrine to our lives, and brothers how dangerous is a phariseeism that loves the intricacies of the doctrine but then it doesn't affect our hearts. We turn people away from the Gospel when we live like that. But God has given C.J. a great gift in giving him a tender heart that we know he cultivates, and it's that practice of cultivation that practice of straining to apply well when we taught that has brought about the character that most Christ-like character of all the love the is so obvious in the life of the whole movement and the love that's so obvious in C.J.'s life that ultimately commends the gospel, and that is what we are about. So C.J., I love you, we love you, there's no one we would rather have speak to us about how to apply all this doctrine to our lives so come and preach to us brother.
Because things have been known to disappear from the T4G website, I felt it important to transcribe Mark Dever's remarks about his buddy C.J. Mahaney and preserve them in this post. How much of what Dever said rings true today?
In just seven years, we have seen Sovereign Grace Ministries relocate its headquarters to Kentucky, Mahaney has had a falling out with his protégé Joshua Harris (and others) and has subsequently stepped down as SGM president, a good number of churches have withdrawn from the SGM "family of churches", and there is pending legal action.
What is even more upsetting is that these Calvinista leaders have built large networks under the guise of sound doctrine and 'humility.' Some of these church networks are even mimicking SGM!
In some upcoming posts we will be taking a closer look at what appears to be a highly authoritarian Christian ministry – 9Marks – and its co-founder Mark Dever.
Please pray for some friends who resigned from a 9Marks affiliated church in March but have not yet been removed from the membership roll. Apparently, they are required to join another congregation before the pastors will comply with their request. Does that sound like a 'healthy church' to you?
Lydia's Corner: 2 Kings 9:14-10:31 Acts 17:1-34 Psalm 144:1-15 Proverbs 17:27-28
“Wherever a proud man dwelleth, he is turbulent and impatient if he have not his will. If he is a public person, he will set a kingdom all on fire, if things may not go as he would have them…If they have to do in church affairs, they will have their will and way, or they will cast all into confusion, and hinder the gospel, and turn the churches upside down.”
Pride doth tickle the heart of fools with content and pleasure to hear themselves applauded, or see themselves admired by the people, or to hear that they have got a great reputation in the world, or to flocked after, and cried up, and have many followers. Herod loveth to hear in commendation of his oration, “It is the voice of a god, and not of a man,” Acts xi. 22. Two sorts of troublers, under the name of pastors, pride hath in all ages thrust upon the church; devouring wolves, and dividing sect-masters.
Pride causeth men to hate reproof: the proud are forward in finding faults in others, but love not a plain reprover of themselves…If they valued or honored you before, you have lost them or angered them if you have told them of their faults. If they love to hear a preacher deal plainly with others, they hate him when he dealeth so with them. This pride is the thing that hath made men so unprofitable to each other, by driving faithful reproof and admonition almost out of the world, because men are so proud that they will not hear it…He must be exceedingly skillful in smoothing and oiling every word, and making it more like to a commendation or flattery, than a reproof, that will escape their indignation.”
-Richard Baxter, “The Practical Works of Richard Baxter, Volume I, A Christian Directory,” pages 199-206
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I am (still) a member of the United Christian Church of Dubai ( http://uccdubai.com ) A 9Marks church pastored by John Folmar; previously Folmar served as assistant pastor at Mark Dever’s Capitol Hill Baptist Church.
Thanks for that quote, TW.
Ironically, a truly humble person would never think that they were qualified to write a book on humility
(and yes, it’s good to be back on deck)
@ Lynne T:
Glad you're back. I trust you had a wonderful time during your travels.
Thank you, I sure did, and it was wonderful to be able to spend time with my daughter
Can’t stand all the fawning these men heap upon one another? How much adoration is man supposed to receive before it becomes worship? And all this boot licking and self promotion is, to the glory of God? Give me men and women who do not think of themselves more highly then they ought. Then and only then, would I want to listen to what they might say. As my dear father used to say, ” don’t listen to a blow hard. “
@ TW:
That was a great quote! Mahaney did say that change was here to stay, and so it continues in Sovereign Grace Ministries.
I find it incredible that Capitol Hill Baptist Church ‘dismembered’ more than half of its congregation (256 members) in May 1996, but now those so-called ‘healthy churches’ affiliated with 9 Marks are clinging tightly to those who have resigned their membership.
For those who are unfamiliar with the GREAT PURGE at Capitol Hill Baptist Church, here’s what happened according to Dever:
Why We Disciplined Half Our Church
I believe the lesson to be learned is — be careful about joining a church. Check out its affiliations PRIOR to becoming a member so you aren't faced with TW's dilemma.
Regarding church membership, let's not forget that the rules don't apply to the Calvinista leaders. When the Mahaneys stopped attending Covenant Life Church where they had been members since its inception (around 1980), where did they seek refuge?
Capitol Hill Baptist Church
The hypocrisy is staggering…
@ TW:
I see that John Folmar will be coming to our area in September to speak at the 9Marks Conference being held at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. 🙄
@ Lynne T:
I hope you had an awesome time.
Deb said:
And if you listen to interviews with Dever, he is so proud of himself over this that he rarely passes up an opportunity to congratulate himself on it. Look what WE were willing to do! Have we got some brass ones for the Kingdom or what??!!!
Now, the longstanding pastor he replaced in 1996 was caught up in some sort of scandal or impropriety, but I've never been able to track down what the situation was specifically. Does anybody know?
@ Deb:
I wonder if we should stand outside with loudspeakers endless repeating the theme song from Exodus in honor of Todd?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEYmomUuveU
Sorry, I was trying to “reply with quote” to that first paragraph above, but it didn’t take, apparently. Wasn’t trying to plagiarise you, Deb!
@ Sergius Martin-George:
Great to hear from you! I fixed your comment so no one will be confused. 🙂
Sergius Martin-George wrote:
Great question! Here’s the answer (according to their church history):
Okay, thanks for that. That’s pretty much what I suspected. That is a strangely-written piece, though. And they assiduously avoid mentioning any names after the first two guys. Which is weird, because I’m pretty sure I’ve heard Dever mention his predecessor’s name in interviews, but they were always very vague about why that pastor left.
After the nauseating long-wined accolade to CJ, Dever spouts: “I mean what is it – it’s applying biblical doctrine to our lives, and brothers how dangerous is a phariseeism that loves the intricacies of the doctrine but then it doesn’t affect our hearts. We turn people away from the Gospel when we live like that. ”
DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING
Can you say hypocrisy when people turn a blind eye to abuse and sex abuse cover-up in the church?
You know, that’s one thing that I haven’t discussed much on my blog, but I wonder how many who are watching the SGM case from afar have abandoned their faith or questioned Christianity because of the blatant hypocrisy?
“Humility is honestly assessing ourselves in light of God’s holiness and our sinfulness.”
In my opinion (you be the judge as to the humility thereof) he could have stopped after “holiness” and got much more bang for his buck. I actually think adding “and our sinfulness” takes away with the left hand what he just gave with his right because now the focus is right back on you/me/us, but that becomes OK since you are only going to say icky things about yourself. In other words, what we have here is worm theology. You can talk about yourself all you want as long as you never say anything good. How about you just don’t talk about yourself at all except as it pertains to God’s words on you. Like, oh, say Psalm 139:13-14 or maybe Psalm 8? Fascinating stuff right there: “You formed my inward parts…I am fearfully and wonderfully made…marvelous are Your works”. Not sure what you do with that when you must add our sinfulness to God’s holiness to get humility and if you don’t, you don’t have it.
But books like Good to Great have severe limitations; they can take us only so far in understanding humility because they’re not rooted in a biblical worldview.
This is hypocritical and is now the second time we have seen these guys do this, the other being that article on Wendell Barry where Barry is disparaged and then all his ideas used to promote their own. So if it is psychology they will just condemn it whole hog but if the not ‘rooted in a biblical worldview’ work serves their purpose then they will draw heavily from it.
attracts more of His grace
Huh? I have never heard of attracting God’s grace. What is this new thing?
@ Sergius Martin-George:
From what I can tell, the CHBC history is a transcript from something that was taught at the church.
Here is the portion of the history just before the excerpt I quoted: link
And now you know the history of CHBC prior to Dever’s reign.
Deb wrote:
So, apparently the only way you can get out of one of these churches is death or discipline. Therefore, if you leave on your own, you are effectively disciplining the church. (This may actually be true, and also appropriate. I take that is a problem.) Since we simply cannot have that, we will discipline you back. So there. Take that. Hmph.
Dee wrote:
Nice song, but I like this one better!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP5EfwBWgg0
I don’t know, that whole “historic present” tense is really grating.
In 2009, two North Carolina women start a blog. They are uneasy–not knowing what the future will hold. But they press on. Their blog will receive 3 million hits in the first three years….
@ formerly anonymous:
“Once word leaks out that a pirate has gone soft, people begin to disobey you and then it’s nothing but work, work, work all the time.”
Dread Pirate Roberts.
It seems like in Mahaney’s version of the Bible, after the father lavishes a party on the prodigal son, gives him a ring and a robe and restores him to full sonship, the son goes back to eating pig slop out of self proclaimed “humility” and “thankfulness” and then goes on to chide anyone who doesn’t also wallow in such self depreciation.
The secret is to have a friend ready to flatter you in public on your behalf. That way you can be humble and also make sure everyone else knows it.
“Oh Mark…you shouldn’t have…you’re TOO KIND…”
@ Sergius Martin-George: Yep, I get your point.
The bloggers will meet with various constituents including Sergius Martin George who will be passing through North Carolina on his drive to a Northern destination…
…he will be informed he may have pink eye. But it will turn out to be allergies. There are onions in the chicken salad. Controversy ensues.
Deb wrote:
I wasn’t aware of this. Folmar is a gifted speaker and it appears Dever is doing his best to promote him. Folmar needs to author a book and then he will be ready to hit the conference circuit in a big way. I am thinking a title such as “Planting Gospel Centered Churches in the Middle East” may be forthcoming.
I think you are aware that he, along with a dozen or so other leaders from two gospel-centered, 9Marks churches in Dubai will again be in Louisville to speak at a missions conference for college students. This is a conference established by John Piper and also will feature C.J. Mahaney as a speaker. But of course, as I was told, C.J. the blackmailer and sexual abuse cover-up man, really has no impact on us Christians on the other side of the world. That is a problem for American Christianity.
http://crosscon.com/speakers/
I asked a friend attending Folmar’s church a rhetorical question – since the church subscribes to a congregational form of government (at least in name) and the church hired Folmar to preach at UCCD, would it be appropriate for Folmar to submit his speaking schedule to the membership for a vote of approval? Or perhaps they should vote on amending his job description to a traveling preacher and hire a new senior pastor who would be tasked with staying in Dubai to preach at UCCD. UCCD, and other 9Marks churches, like to claim they are congregational, but what they mean by “congregational” seems to be quite different from the traditional meaning of the word.
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I am (still) a member of the United Christian Church of Dubai ( http://uccdubai.com ) A 9Marks church pastored by John Folmar; previously Folmar served as assistant pastor at Mark Dever’s Capitol Hill Baptist Church.
@ Sergius Martin-George:
…he is presented with a yummy bag of Cheetos by the TWW blog queens which he consumes in short order during the trek.
….the Cheetos will end up saving him from certain starvation, as he cannot stop his car for six straight hours, for fear that his transmission will give out if he stops. He is the new Charles Lindberg.
News Flash!!!
I just clicked the link to the Cross Conference I posted above and C.J. Mahaney is no longer pictured as one of the speakers. I am not sure when he was removed, but I saved a screen shot of the conference speakers on July 2nd and he was pictured among the speakers.
I am wondering if there was a public announcement of this, or was this another T4G type maneuver of attempting to secretly change things?
Bob Hope, Johnny Carson, Carol Burnett and other celebrities had their distinctive theme songs. For your consideration, a proposed theme song for the humble one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCsNunGnqE0
@ Sergius Martin-George:
To wrap up this portion of TWW's history as inspired by the history of CHBC…
Beyond blogging, we’ve been in communication with numerous people in the United States and overseas and have done our best to keep them informed of important trends in Christendom. You won’t find a lot of talk about growing the blog beyond the size it is now, but you’ll hear a lot of talk about sending out our thoughts and ideas to the ends of the earth. The TWW blog queens have actually met a loyal reader from Antarctic, among others…
@ TW:
That's an interesting development. I see that your pastor John Folmar (and his wife) will be speaking at the Cross Conference after Christmas.
WOW! Two trips to the United States from the United Arab Emirates in a span of about three months. First Wake Forest, NC then Louisville…
Deb wrote:
Sponsored by Usurp!ng Women 2014 at the beautiful Lighthouse Convention Center, Raleigh, North Carolina.
Online registration begins September 15.
TW wrote:
You must have gotten it just in time because the Google cached version from the same date doesn’t show him.
It’s Hard to Be Humble, by Mac Davis 🙂
Kristin wrote:
Like this…
Photo: Oh kitty, you are so beautiful, I admire you
Has anyone else read this post by Tim Challies? He posted it this morning.
http://www.challies.com/reading-classics-together/12-ways-to-preserve-christian-unity?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+challies%2FXhEt+%28Challies+Dot+Com%29
TW wrote:
TW — You’re right. Here’s the CrossCon webpage before they took off Mahaney’s photo and name from the speaker list.
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s302/sh/21b4c189-1e73-4221-b1e1-81dc03fba931/6d902bf137d162169bc379b3483e19bc
Here’s how the CrossCon site looks now: http://crosscon.com/
Unity is the new push. Sounds real Holy, doesn’t it? This is the new mantra in the SBC, too. It is a great way to censor people, make them afraid to speak up as they will look divisive. It is a way to control the collective.
But how can I have unity with people who think it is ok to protect child molesters? How can I have unity with young pastors who think it is holy to deceive churches about their doctrine because they are too ignorant to understand the true Gospel? And those are just a few examples of what I cannot be unified with.
Unity in their language means shut up and go along.
Challies writes:
“Spend more time considering evidences of grace in other Christians than you do pondering their sins and weaknesses.”
The problem with him writing this is that he is part of a sin sniffing movement that includes not allowing people to leave a church without their permission!
So is he basically saying the pew sitters should do the above but the leaders get to decide what is grace and what is sin?
Challies has little credibility after his pretending he barely knows CJ and telling us how to think biblically about CJ which wasn’t biblically at all.
singleman wrote:
Yes I saw that. Do you think perhaps he was speaking to Ligon Duncan? Here is a good blog from my brother:
http://livingtext.blogspot.ae/2013/06/ligon-duncan-amongst-miscreants.html
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I am (still) a member of the United Christian Church of Dubai ( http://uccdubai.com ) A 9Marks church pastored by John Folmar; previously Folmar served as assistant pastor at Mark Dever’s Capitol Hill Baptist Church.
Deb wrote:
So in official church history, it becomes about one man: Dever. That the Lord sent to save them.
Sheesh! He should be embarrassed but I guess that is humility in their world.
singleman wrote:
My comment to Tim Challies would be: “Dear Tim, I agree with much of what you’ve posted. But when Christian leaders ignore common decency, the protection of children, and basic good behavior, we the people in the seats will not ignore it, put on a fake smile, and say ‘unity’.”
When Mahaney’s friends try to get us to pretend that allegations of covering up child abuse for 25 years is okay, they’re going to get some real push back from any sensible Christian who has read the Gospels…or from any decent human being.
I’m all for unity. In fact, I suspect I have more unity with other Christians than Tim Challies does. I’m willing to be fellowship with almost anyone who believes the Nicene Creed and has given his/her life to Christ. It’s people in the neo-Reformed camp who don’t want unity.
“I find it incredible that Capitol Hill Baptist Church ‘dismembered’ more than half of its congregation (256 members) in May 1996, but now those so-called ‘healthy churches’ affiliated with 9 Marks are clinging tightly to those who have resigned their membership.”
Everything with these guys is a bait and switch. Dever, the Founders and Al Mohler got a resolution passed at SBC years back about purging membership rolls which many thought of as a way to get a better count which is a good thing, right?. This was all a part of the church discipline issue. See, you get people to go along with something that seems logical and for a good reason but you don’t tell them your endgame strategy upfront.
Now they take that one part and then start teaching on how the local church is everything and the reasons you cannot just leave one but have to do it right. This stuff just does not happen, they have major strategies and they have seminaries to indoctrinate young men with these strategies they present to their malleable minds as biblical truth.
They always have an endgame because thinking folks would reject them out of hand if they do not find ways to suck them in first.
This is one of the most deceptive movements I have ever seen in my life. The problem is it takes years to figure it out and by then, it is too late for many people who are loathe to admit they were snookered.
Anon 1 wrote:
Touché.
Anon 1 wrote:
My old church did this to eliminate women from *any* position of leadership in the church. The pastor cleverly honored the chairs of each committee by calling them “elders.” A year later, he made it clear that to be an elder you had to be a man.”
Janey wrote:
Janey – I found CJ on the Google cached version, but not at the Wayback site.
@ singleman:
He hates “discernment” bloggers.
@ Dee:
He’s a discernment blogger. I love me, I love me not, I love me, I love me not.
I just published the pre and post “dump C.J. from the Cross Conference.”
http://thouarttheman.org/2013/07/11/john-piper-dumps-his-good-friend-c-j-mahaney/
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I am (still) a member of the United Christian Church of Dubai ( http://uccdubai.com ) A 9Marks church pastored by John Folmar; previously Folmar served as assistant pastor at Mark Dever’s Capitol Hill Baptist Church.
Challies advice is dangerous, even God thinks so when an element of our disagreement is NOT of him. God destroyed the world with a flood. God mixed up the languages at Babel. So I believe that God causes disruption when Evil has crept in. The disunity right now in evangelicalism is NOT because Christians have failed to unify. It is because EVIL has crept in.
And why do these preachers not follow their own advice. It is THEM who will not unify with egalitarians for example.
But the sheer evil of child abuse is the cause of disunity right now, how absurd to suggest that we can be unified during this disagreement of how this knowledge has been handled.
Julie Anne wrote:
Very humble name he gave himself. :o)
Good article Todd!
singleman wrote:
Oddly, among his 12 ways he forgot to mention his favorite method: comment censorship.
Lynne T wrote:
Lynne, I was thinking the exact same thing . . .
@ Patti:
Great comment!
TW wrote:
TW — Way to go!
Sergius Martin-George wrote:
“JESUS, POLISH MY HALO FOR ME!!!!”
Janey wrote:
Stealth takeover by salami tactics, “just one more little slice” at a time.
Anon 1 wrote:
Again, salami tactics.
“Just one more LITTLE slice” each and every time.
Until the endgame: The Bloated Spider has eaten it all.
@ TW: Go Todd. Let my people go!
O Lord, it’s hard to be humble…
http://youtu.be/tn1Qolv4ntQ
.
Of course, these guys give themselves wiggle room on the whole “unity” issue by one very simple device. They question whether those who strongly disagree with them are really Christians. Because if you aren’t, then they don’t have to show any ‘unity’ towards you
I read Tim Challies’ blog piece, which was inspired by a Puritan classic. Of itself the advice is sensible and praiseworthy. However the timing is perhaps a little unfortunate. Plus unity, like all virtues, must not exalted at the expense of the rest. For example, I wonder whether the original writer (no doubt a godly man) would have quietly gone along with Roman Catholics on the basis of the Nicene Creed, or with the more radical groups such as the Levellers?
And unity, as I think other people here have pointed out, should not protect people from the force of the law of the land where a criminal offence has been committed. To say that is not to prejudge the issue of legal matters outstanding, but simply as a principle.
Todd, I like your blog btw – just read one or two postings.
Deb,
I would recommend to your friends who have resigned from the 9 Marks church that they would do well to look at sites like http://www.mormonresignation.com/. I don’t know what kind of letter your friends sent and can’t comment on the details, but I believe the information there will be rather helpful in following up with a tartly-phrased missive which makes it perfectly clear what their intentions are.
Of note is point 1: “Legal Right to Resign”
Mark Dever and company, take note. You cannot hold people hostage when they’ve asked to be removed from the membership rolls of your church. You do not own them.
I’d also note that if any church engages in behavior that could be considered libelous or slanderous about a person who has resigned, it could be grounds for a lawsuit. Yes, I know that Christians aren’t supposed to go to law against each other, but sometimes legal action is necessary to remind these would-be “masters” that church members are not their property.
“In the late 1860s, Mrs. Celestia Ferris begins a prayer meeting in her home in the 200 block of A Street NE.
Does anyone else find it interesting that this church was started by a lady?
#5. Consider your peaceful God. God is the God of peace, Christ is Prince of peace and the Spirit is the Spirit of peace. Having made peace with God, having bowed before Christ, having been indwelled by the Spirit whose fruit is love, joy, peace…, you now have the ability, and ought to have the desire, to be at true, deep and lasting peace with other Christians.
Except when He sat down, wove a whip, and drove the money changers out of His Father’s temple.
@ kindakrunchy: I picked up on that, too. As I understand the history of SGM, Lydia Little was instrumental in starting Take and Give. She is mentioned in the Wiki article about Larry Tomczak. Funny that we NEVER hear her name…
“CJ Mahaney is not humble…and thats one reason he is so well-qualified to write this book.”
Welcome to the glimmering, brawny, intellectual physique of the neo Calvinist “authority”.
Well, Dever is actually right about one thing. CJ is NOT humble…because he doesn’t have the first clue what humility is. He has taken a beautiful concept and turned it into the gibbet of his despotic theology.
@ Deb:
She is a woman. Enough said. They’ll give credit to a dog first.
Deb wrote:
Of all the developments in this ongoing saga, THIS is the ONE THING that stands out to me above everything else. I don’t mean to minimize the abuse suffered by people, but this is the one event that sums up everything.
The BLATANT disregard for EVERYTHING these men have supposedly taught and DEMANDED of other people for basically decades is astonishing.
This ONE situation tells me everything I need to know about Mahaney and Dever. When push comes to shove and it is inconvenient, they are not willing to follow their own teachings.
“Do as I say, not as I do. And I’ll do whatever I darn well please.”
How anyone can trust and respect these two men when they were willing to disregard everything they supposedly stand for is simply beyond comprehension. It truly is blatant hypocrisy that is staggering in its brazenness.
It would not matter to me if SGM and C.J. and company were proven absolutely innocent of every. single. charge. brought before the court. It wouldn’t matter if every person who brought the suit dropped it and said it was all a lie.
Mahaney and Dever STILL defied everything they tell other people they must do. Why would anyone follow them?
/rant
@ Sallie @ A Woman's Freedom in Christ:
Well-stated! There is a double-standard, and I hope and pray that others are seeing the hypocrisy.
@ Argo:
Ha! Calvinistas do seem to have a problem with simple logic 😉
TW
My husband came up with a good one. "Never Can Say Good-bye, Dubai."
Argo wrote:
Only if it is a male dog!
@ Arce:
Well…if you want to get technical, a dog IS a male dog. The term for the female of the species is that word that will get starred out if I type it. LOL!
Deb
You ask…
Is It Hard for Christian Leaders to be Humble?
Yes…
It’s not only hard – IMO – It’s impossible for Todays Christian Leaders to be Humble…
Jesus said, in John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory:
When you call yourself “Christian Leader,” or allow others to call you, “Christian Leader”
You are in opposition to Jesus – Who taught His Disciples – There is “ONE” leader – Jesus…
Haven’t you ever wondered why Jesus taught His Disciples NOT to be called “Leaders?”
For you have “ONE” leader – the Christ.
And NONE did…
In the Bible, ALL of “His Disciples” called themselves “Servants.” 😉
Mat 23:10-12 NASB – New American Standard Bible
Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
The Message – Mat 23:10-12.
And don’t let people maneuver you into taking charge of them.
There is only “ONE” Life-Leader for you and them—Christ.
**Do you want to stand out? – Then step down. – Be a servant.**
If you puff yourself up, you’ll get the wind knocked out of you.
But if you’re content to simply be yourself, your life will count for plenty.
If Jesus instructed **His Disciples** NOT to call themselves “leaders”
and someone calls them self a “leader” or thinks they are a “leader;”
Are they one of “His Disciples?”
Why isn’t what Jesus said important? 😉
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall **hear MY voice;**
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Ok, so I noticed something about CJ’s description of humility – it is only in reference to God. You could see yourself as inferior to God and still see yourself as highly superior to your fellow mankind. Yet because you have your relative position to God correct you could be humble by his definition.
In my opinion, Jesus already gave us a definition of True Humility: Matt 22:37-38
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ If you forget the second one, then you aren’t really humble.
I think you will enjoy this piece about a most humble man: Uriah Heap. Does he remind you of anyone?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEBW5AEHTSA
@ William wallace:
Thank you for the good laugh!
ES wrote:
ES — I can see how that would make sense in a warped sort of way…
“Please pray for some friends who resigned from a 9Marks affiliated church in March but have not yet been removed from the membership roll.”
Membership is usually legislated for tax (etc.) purposes. That is why the contemporary church has it, as it is not a specifically biblical principle.
Your friends should report this behavior to State officials. Or mention to the church that they plan to report. I’d bet they’d be off the list very rapidly.
You might find this blog entry of interest where I summarize one of C.J. Mahaney’s sermons and compare to his actions:
http://sgmanalysis.wordpress.com/2013/04/15/c-j-mahaney-teaches-on-the-priority-of-gospel-unity-a-priority-for-only-for-others-but-not-c-j-mahaney/
Mahaney teaches on a “priority” of gospel unity and Phillipians 2 but his past actions show just how little of a “priority” it is for him. Sad.
Shocking how someone can teach all of this but then fail to see that his past actions show how little he practiced this.
I unfortunately joined this discussion late but in some ways I have no issue with Capitol Baptist deciding to delete members that don’t attend their church regularly from church membership. Is that all that was done or was there more? Especially with this being a voting church, you really don’t want people that don’t attend regularly to be able come in and vote etc.
I don’t agree with a lot of what Mark Dever has done especially with shielding Mahaney etc. but do see how a church could be run that way where they want members to be active or not be members especially if they are up front about it (not sure if that was the case). Also, were these members free to leave or was Capitol Baptist practicing this “loving” pursuit that SGM is known for?
Steve240 wrote:
I don't have a problem with the cleaning up of church rolls either. In fact, many Southern Baptist churches need to do that very thing. Here's where I have a problem. Our friend Todd Wilhelm submitted his resignation letter back in March and the elders refuse to take him off the membership roll. Why? Because he hasn't joined another church yet. He was a member of a 9Marks church in the United Arab Emirates, and the pastor John Folmar used to be in leadership at Capitol Hill Baptist Church with Mark Dever. That's the problem in my estimation.
@ Steve240:
What they officially teach Goes something like:
1: Forsaking the assembling is a sin.
2: Forsaking the assembling means failing to attend services of the local church you joined as a member, without getting the OK from leaders to transfer elsewhere.
3: Members “in sin” need to be disciplined and eventually excommunicated — not just taken off the rolls.
Or to quote Jonathan Leeman:
‘Now, suppose you try to leave a church while living in unrepentant sin, whether that’s a “big” unrepentant sin like the one we see in 1 Corinthians 5, or a more subtle unrepentant sin like refusing to attend a church (see Heb. 10:25). In both cases, the church has an authorized responsibility to love you, love Jesus, and love the onlooking nations by setting the record straight: “Uh, we would prefer for you not to go on these terms, and if you do, we’re going to ask for our passport back, please.”
You can say, “You have no right to keep me as a member!” Well, that’s sort of missing the point. In fact, the church has a Jesus-given-job of setting the public record straight, not just for your sake, but for the church’s sake, Jesus’ sake, and the nations’ sake. This is what it does by saying, “Hold on. Are you leaving because you plan to pursue sin unrepentantly? If so, then we need to excommunicate you. We’ve been publicly vouching that you’re a Christian. We’ve been putting our name and Christ’s name on the line for you. But now we need to withdraw that affirmation.”’
Dave A A wrote:
Does the Bible really say not attending a local body is sinful? I’ve never understood that verse in that way.
It has always sounded more to me like, “hey this is a good idea, it’s for your benefit!,” -with a smiley 🙂
and not, “You better do it, you don’t have a choice, and it’s thus Saith the Lord, if you don’t, you are in sin.” -with a mad face 😡
Steve240 wrote:
Steve, Putting church discipline forward as cleaning up the member rolls was a bait and switch. They had a lot more in store that they did NOT tell the SBC when they put that resolution forward. Now they are trying to make it look like the SBC affirms ALL their church discipline rules of authoritarianism. They own you because as elders they decide if you are saved or not and have control over your church attendance/membership.
Daisy wrote:
And the oft-quoted v 25 isn’t even a whole sentence, but a completion of the good, beneficial idea of v 24 ‘”Let us think of ways to motivate one another to acts of love and good works, not neglecting our meeting together…” 🙂
Anon 1 wrote:
I agree that there certaily should be a difference between “church discipline” and “cleaning up member rolls.” It is sounding like they used church discipline when they should have just been cleaning up their membership rolls.
Sad they excommunicated people when they should have just taken them off the membership rolls.
Steve, They are changing the rules. Now your membership means they have spiritual authority over you. It was never really about cleaning off the rolls but getting control of the ones on it!
Kristin wrote:
Blowing long trumpets before you to announce how Humble(TM) you are.
kindakrunchy wrote:
Isn’t there something about “Crying ‘Peace, Peace!’ where there is no Peace”?
The pastor was caught having sex with a married woman at the church. That’s why they have windows inside the inner offices. Matt Schmucker has written about this incident, although they try to keep it very hush hush. @ Sergius Martin-George:
Steve240 wrote:
This sort of action makes them feel “in control.” In a Sunday school class, we took it upon ourselves to clear up the rolls. People had been on the list for years and we had never seen them. There were some I didn’t know.
My friend started calling folks to say “hi” and see what was going on. I believe one couple laughed and said it was good to see that someone noticed they had left!
Anon wrote:
I never got the hush hush stuff. They should just say the pastor stepped down after an affair. Like it has never happened before. Prestonwood Baptist, prior to Jack Graham, had a pastor who was involved in a long time affair and the deacons helped cover it up. Everyone knows the story but it is whispered.
I am not saying that they should make public service announcements but matter of fact statements would go far in helping the rest of the world to see how screwed up we all are. Oh, that’s right-authoritarians are different than the rest of us so we ned to deep six anything that shows weakness.
kindakrunchy wrote:
I remember some male-supremacist radio preacher in the Seventies ranting about “How Every CULT CULT CULT In History WAS STARTED BY A WOMAN!!!!”
Going back to the beginning:
Q: Is It Hard for Christian Leaders to be Humble?
A: Not at all. Just ask Cee Jay and Uriah Heep.