“Never awake me when you have good news to announce, because with good news nothing presses; but when you have bad news, arouse me immediately, for then there is not an instant to be lost.” Napoleon link
One of our readers, Jeff S, recently challenged us to consider the use of business concepts within the church structure. We found Mark Driscoll's advertisement for a sales officer here devoid of merit due to its complete lack of a description of Scriptural qualifications for the position. Even worse, we cringe at the idea of "selling" the gospel and the church.
Many Christian leaders, famous and infamous (including CJ Mahaney), have referenced the book Good to Great" Why Some Companies Make the Leap…and Others Don't by Jim Collins link. For all the discussion amongst the authoritarian church gurus on the merits of this book, it surprises me that they missed some of the basic concepts. Or did they just decide that these concepts did not 'serve" them? Collin Hansen, in his review of Al Mohler's book The Conviction to Lead, mentions the merits of this book here.
We plan to base a few posts on material from this book. In particular, we will be focusing on Chapter 4: Confront the Brutal Facts (Yet Never Lost the Faith). Recently TWW received an email from a person who, for 5 years, had attended a large, well-known megachurch which is headed by a Reformed Big Dog (not SGM). This person had been a Christian for a long time. After those years, (s)he decided to talk to the leadership about a problem that (s)he had noticed. After praying about it and carefully explaining the issue, said person was told that (s)he was… get ready….you can see it coming…..incoming…………
arrogant and full of pride
This response is from a church that is touted as having a pastor who is "not like the others." To that we say, "Baloney!" This is not an isolated incident. TWW and its readers have documented many such responses from similar authoritarian based churches. Not only is this response diametrically opposed to the teachings of Jesus but it is a tactic which is not recommended by any decent business model. (To clarify, we both have MBAs. We only say this to show that we have some training in how to evaluate corporate climates).
Business Scenario (Based on a true story):
"Jones" Pharmaceutical Company invents a new drug which is very effective in treating moderate congestive heart failure. In fact, it is better than any drug out in the current market. The vast majority of patients, to whom it would be prescribed, are elderly. The drug needs to be taken 4x day. The company could retool and produce the same drug, with the same effectiveness, to be given 2x day. It would be expensive, yet not prohibitive. The sales staff attempts to inform the CEO that they think this is a significant issue but he ignores them because it is "a great drug."
Reports from sales representatives indicate that physicians are complaining because many of their patients will not comply with 4x day dosing, no matter how good the drug is. The sales staff begs the company to spend the money to retool, but the CEO refuses. Most of the physicians start prescribing an "almost as good" drug that is given 2 x day because compliance is better. Eventually the company spends the money to retool, but never fully recoups the loss in income.
The lesson for the CEO
Listen to the people in the trenches. The sales staff understand the ins and outs of what is going on in real life. The CEO, by refusing to take advantage of their knowledge, hurt his company. Even worse, they did have the better drug and would have done well if they had slowed down and retooled. But the CEO "knew better."
The lesson for church leadership
Listen to the people in the trenches
The Scriptural basis for this lesson
From this point forward, 1Corinthians 12 will serve as our example of why church leadership should listen to, and respond to, their members in a thoughtful manner. It is a Biblical (Hey, if they can use it, so can we) mandate. Here is an excerpt: (NIV, Bible Gateway link)
Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body.
16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body.
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be?
18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.
19 If they were all one part, where would the body be?
20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!”
22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,
Do authoritarian leaders really see the church through the 1Corinthians 12 lens?
Nope. I found a deeply troubling statement at 9 Marks which posted a series on "reforming the church" in 2011. We will also be focusing on this series throughout our coming discussions. It is our opinion that 9 Marks is a current example of an authoritarian ministry
A post from this series, A Roadmap for Church Reform by Greg Gilbert link, focuses on how to revitalize what is said to be a dead church. As an aside, it is imperative that one should ask what constitutes a "dead church." Your definition may not be their definition. In fact, we believe that some "dead" churches might be deemed as such because they do not follow the "9 Marks" way. (Emphasis mine)
7. Recognize Elders.
Seventh, recognize elders. If your congregation was ready to change its rules to make way for a plurality of pastors, they’ll probably be ready now to recognize men to become elders. On the other hand, the specific is always harder than the abstract, and deciding which men to nominate is often a difficult decision. You may have some men in the church who will be obviously qualified to fill that role, but there will also likely be some who are almost qualified. There may also be some men whom the congregation would expect to be recognized as elders, but who actually are not qualified at all. As with every other step in the reform, you’ll need to do a good deal of teaching on the role and character of elders before you nominate a group of men.
Expected rejoinder and our retort:
You might be tempted to say that they must be talking about making sure that elders are truly mature Christians. Nope. As part of this 9 Mark collection on church reform, they included an article by a pastor who "reformed" a church link which we reviewed here and here. We proved that they are not talking about thoughtful, committed Christians. They really mean to say that they are seeking elders who fit their particular definition and style of leadership.
Confront the brutal facts by seeking out negative input.
Back to the book and Chapter 4. The premise of this chapter is that great companies develop a culture in which people, in all aspects of the company, from the CEO to the janitor, have something to say. Even more, everyone should have something to say about the
"brutal facts of the current reality."
Let me make this even more clear. It is imperative, in the development of great company, that the negative, gloomy, contrary, hard, repugnant, unfavorable, uncomfortable, and paradigm-challenging facts be actively sought out by those who are in leadership.
Vision is no more important that the negative reality.
Leadership does not begin with just vision. It begins with getting people to confront the brutal facts and to act on the implications. (P.89)
Some leaders cannot address any negative reality that conflicts with their own dreams or visions. (P.71) Such "leaders" then turn a blind eye to any sort of negative feedback. In so doing, they forgo the opportunity to refine the vision to incorporate that which is true. Isn't Christianity all about truth? Over time such a response will lead to both disunity (to use a Christian term) and failure.
"When you turn over rocks and look at all the squiggly things underneath you can either put the rock down, or you can say, 'My job is to turn over rocks and look at the squiggly things,' even if what you see can scare the hell out of you." Pitney Bowes executive Fred Purdue (p.72)
Spend more time looking at the negative than at the positive.
The author describes the annual meeting of this successful company.
They spend 15 minutes discussing the good stuff that happened and 2 hours looking at "the squiggly things." (p.72)
Listen to the people on the front lines. Really, really listen to the bad stuff!
The entire management team would lay itself open to searing questions and challenges from salespeople who dealt directly with customers. The company created a long-standing traditions of forums where people could stand up and tell senior executives what the company was doing wrong, shoving rocks with squiggly things in the faces and saying, "Look! You'd better pay attention to this." (P.72)
A refusal to listen to the negative can lead to fatal mistakes in the church.
Today, many pastors surround themselves with "yes" elders and pastors. Some even make sure their best friends are part of the elder board. They claim that they are doing so under the guise of unity in the Body. In so doing, they make a really stupid mistake. Unity is not harmed by disagreement and discussion of the negative. In fact, the unity of the mission is improved because the leaders accept and deal with the "squiggly things."
Unlike Pitney Bowes, many churches ignore the input of the vast majority of members. When a member finally gets up the gumption to note something negative, most authoritarian leaders will not listen, often insulting the individual who brings difficult realities into the picture. In fact, your blogmeisters got excoriated from a pulpit because of a negative observation that we made about a church. We were not, and are not, the only ones to observe the same problem.
People are leaving the church in droves. Church plants by "experts" are failing. We believe that a large part of the problem is the inability of the evangelical church to listen to the "little guy" (and they are viewed as the little guy, btw). The celebrity pastor is all that matters. The "nobodies' are supposed to be "positive," "encouraging" and "agreeable." They are not supposed to discuss the ""squiggly things." In fact, it would be best if they just kept quiet and get with "the program."
We knew a pastor who told us that his elders had only disagreed with him twice in 28 years! What do you want to bet that the church has experienced great difficulties?
Back to 1Corinthians 12. We believe that church leadership must introduce methods for all members of the Body to bring their concerns without fear of retaliation and insult. By not doing this, the authoritarian church is missing the valid, insightful, and Spirit given thoughts of the little finger, the toe, and the nose.
But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.
It is time for the church to unflinchingly seek out the squiggly things and encourage all members of the body of Christ to speak freely.
Lydia's Corner: 2 Kings 8:1-9:13 Acts 16:16-40 Psalm 143:1-12 Proverbs 17:26
My problem with Collins’ G2G when used by church leaders is that it is too often boiled down to “getting the right people on the bus and the wrong people off.” Which normally means “surround(ing) themselves with “yes” elders and pastors“. They use the book to justify them throwing people under the bus.
Bill Kinnon wrote:
I totally agree! These strategies cannot be mapped to the Body of Christ. The whole focus on “Leadership” throughout the 90’s in the seeker mega world has been an epic fail….. spiritually. But it has created some very well known and well off pastors.
I am even uncomfortable using the word “Leader” when it comes to the Body of Christ because our Western understanding of it is not the same as the 1st Century Body of Christ understanding. They are “servants” just as we all are with different gifting’s. Can you imagine trying to implement the spiritual “Priesthood of believer” concept in a corporation focused on the quarterly earnings?
Back when I was doing confidential environmental scans in companies I ignorantly tried to do them in some mega churches with the entire staff…BUT, you cannot get “brutal” truth out of them because they have been trained in what I have come to think of as “totalitarian niceness”. They have been indoctrinated that it is a sin to mention negative truths. So a big part of it is self deception.
I think this is all really good and very important aspects of good leadership. My only hesitation is what about pastors who are being abused by certain individuals in the congregation (or on the elder board). I doubt this happens in the megas, but I’ve certainly seen it in much smaller churches, where there are members who expect obedience from pastors and will make trouble when the pastors don’t do exactly what they want.
@ Bill Kinnon: Just like the Bible, they pick and choose what they will follow. I am trying to bring the whole formula to this.
At the FIC we went to, one of the elders in particular like to talk about “unity.” What it really meant was acting like you agreed with the elders. If you didn’t, you were expected to keep quiet about it, no matter how important the issue was. This was at a church that really majored on the minors and minored (or ignored) the majors.
@ Jeff S: There are plenty of support groups for pastors. Until recently, there have been few for the people in the church. This blog deals with that side of things.
Anon 1 wrote:
“Totalitarian niceness.” I like that. I’m going to have to start using that phrase.
@ Bill Kinnon: From what i can tell, Chapter 4 deals with getting the “no” people to be heard.
@ Jeff S: If you know of any abused pastor, have them write to us. We will feature their story and help them start a survivor blog.
Dee wrote:
Now that is the truth! Besides they have a pulpit upon which to influence people and receive their living from those same people. The Body of Christ is a cooperative effort. I have seen many pastors come into small churches and seek to remake them too soon. They forget it is all about relationship and there are some things to overlook until people trust them. That process can take a few years, too.
HoppyTheToad wrote:
That is going on in the SBC right now. A big push for “unity” so when anyone disagrees or points out problems they are automatically labeled divisive. It is a great strategy for censorship and control.
And SBTS really tried to implement FIC a few years back into much of their curriculum. It might still be around in some pockets but it did not go over well.
@ Anon 1: TWW has a proud history of offering services to prevailed upon pastors. We offered to get Jared Moore both a phone and a website for his church which apparently has neither. Since he spends time on his website, we wanted to show him how to use his website to also include the info for his church. Alas, to no avail…
Dee, I think Jared Moore (who is now SBC 2nd VP who won with about 300 votes at the convention in Houston) is pastor of what would be considered a smallish church in rural KY. He should have taken up your offer since his church has no phone.
I wasn’t meaning to challenge anything, so I hope I’m not being seen as contentious, but I’ve known of two cases of pastors being abused by congregation members with entitlement issues. I don’t know anything about support groups, but they were both very small congregations and had very little in terms of resources to deal with it. And of course they could have left (and a lot before them did), but that leaves 95% of the church at the mercy of a few abusive individuals. In both cases I know of the pastors managed to stay on and become effective, but it was painful (in one case the pastor took on a secular job to keep the lights on because certain key members of the church stopped giving to run him out) and they suffered a lot for it.
Smaller churches like these often don’t have the resources or support groups the megas do.
You can delete my comments if you’d like- I don’t want to seem like in trying to make this post about something is isnt
I’m still waiting for the title “Best Practices of the Christian Faith” to be released by Zondervon or Lifeway. Shouldn’t be long now.
Jeff S wrote:
Me delete comments??? Oh good night! That is only under duress. Comment away on any topic that you like. Authoritarianism is not in my genes.
And ,as it says in the book, look for the squiggly things!
@ Sergius Martin-George: I would like to write a book called Good to Poopy but i know they won’t publish it.
Jeff S wrote:
Jeff, I am not sure what anyone can really do in such situations but leave. If people want to allow a few authoritarian people (whether it be a pastor or pew sitter) to run the show, it is of their own free will to stay or fight.
The pastor of the church where I attend now once told me that he spends the first 5 years at a new church simply getting to know the people and biting his tongue a lot. And he has been in at least 3 very small rural churches when he graduated seminary. He is more a quiet scholarly type anyway who seems to really like people. (You would be amazed at how many pastors don’t really like people). He is certainly not into becoming a “great leader” or celebrity. But then we are priesthood of believer all the way (historically and I hope that remains) and someone like that would never fit in.
By spending that time really getting to know the people personally made all the difference. I can remember days when the church pastor would drop by our house and they would sit on the patio sipping iced tea and just talking about anything and everything. He was a friend first. That is how it is with my pastor—with whom I disagree with on a few items, too, and we can laugh about it. :o)
Sergius Martin-George wrote:
Didn’t Billy Hybels already do that one? :o)
Back in the late 1980s, I put together a method for inexpensively developing an emergency response plan for chemical using or handling plants, and using the development of the plan as a means to reduce the severity and/or likelihood of chemical emergencies. It began with getting all of the workers in the plant to identify their worst fears or nightmares about the plant and what could go wrong. It was based on my experience in more than 200 plants as a consultant — I would always hear from the front-liners that such-and-such was a potential problem that was being overlooked by management. The method worked well in every plant that we used it in, at a small fraction of the cost of bringing in engineering consultants to develop the plan. And, in many cases, the prevention steps also resulted in cost savings by reducing loss of materials to the environment.
The fact of input and or questions about things in the church being ignored or shot down is so familiar. Actually, I did bring up issues at CLC and at least had the pastors listen to me. They never agreed with me or changed their position or practice, but at least they did listen. However, in the last church I was in, as soon as I questioned the pastor on something he said, I was essentially asked to leave. It was totally shocking that one phone conversation went from an honest question, to my removal from leadership, to suggesting I find another church. That was an example of a narcissist planting a church – and failing, because after I was treated that way and also crossed a few other people, he lost 1/3 of his church in 2 weeks, and the church fell apart. All because a “leader” did not want to listen to input and followed his own agenda instead of including all of the people.
Off topic, but has anyone seen this yet?
http://www.kctv5.com/story/22786663/catholic-diocese-pays-225-million-to-family-of-alleged-abuse-victim
off topic but this is very interesting:
http://benstanhope.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-seminary-student-visits-creation.html
FormerCLC’er wrote:
Wow!
A few points on this post:
1) I’m not sure Jesus intended for his followers to be taking advice from Corporate America in running the church.
2) That said (and I’ve said this before), I’ve been better treated by my secular, amoral Fortune 500 employer than I was in the church. The deal is, I know what the corporation expects out of me in exchange for my continued employment. One usually cannot say the same about the church (cf. the example given above where the church member went to his/her leadership and was told to stuff it).
3) I believe this trend towards corporatization in the American church reflects the trend in the larger society, where corporations appear to have more rights than your average person. Again, I’d go back and ask if this is something Jesus would have approved of. I know what I think, but then again, I’m a mouthy heretical know-it-all, so your mileage may vary.
about abused pastors…I’ve had a front row seat to that show. It seems to follow the same authoritarian patterns as an abusive pastor, but the abusers are usually a tight knit group of deacons, elders, trustees, or a ruling family. it may be a southern thing, but many small churches have members who are scared of the local power group. they may be polite to a pastor, but their loyalties will always be with the power group.
Dee and deb are right…it often comes down to not wanting to see problems and punishing those who bring them up. that can be carried out by pastor-kings or evil deacons.
Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
We need more of you…
If you’ve been too serious today, you need this funny meme based on Pastor Jim Stanridge, the guy who went postal on his congregation.
http://cheezburger.com/7642520320
dee wrote:
You might be surprised.
Thanks, Janey. That made me laugh!
JeffS raises a good point. While I think it is right to look at authoritarian leadership given how pivotal leadership is, especially when influential, it’s important not to forget that there can be a minority of people who are unhappy for all the wrong reasons (they were passed over, they want to be recognised, or whatever). However I think it more likely than in practice such folk won’t stay very long in one place… but I could be wrong.
This comment is by no means a let-out card for heavy-handed leadership, btw!
@ Dee:
A little confidence-booster about publishing that book… 😉
http://www.heahea.org/946-If_crap_like_this_can_be_published
The authoritarian pastor and the abused hireling pastor are just two sides of the same coin: consolidated power.
Kristin wrote:
Well said!
@ Southwestern Discomfort:
Think of it this way, if corporate America which supposedly secular can see the bad stuff, why doesn’t the church which supposedly understands man’s sinful nature?
As for mouthy heretical know it alls, I do know a few. Surely you are not referring to yourself? You are awesome!
@ Hester: Too funny!
Janey wrote:
That was brilliant.
But I want to point that, in my semi-dyslexic, early-morning state, I read the phrase “went postal” and thought it said “went pastoral.”
I think I’ve been reading TWW too long.
Help! I need to speak to A. Amos Love, stat!
SMG
Yes! A Amos Love came to mind…where on earth did we get the idea that pastors are our rulers? Gosh, I’ve missed TWW… Been on vacation, laptop charger went kaput, trying to read and type on my iPod, needing my Wartburg fix!! I’m really enjoying all the comments on these last few threads, thanks all you great folks! Signing off with a squint…
More to the point, why would any pastor feel the need to mention Collins at all? Does quoting a hugely successful (in the worldly sense), NYT best-selling author give the pastor cred? Unfortunately, I suspect the answer is “yes” in some circles.
About the church being run as a business entity-
I always thought it would be a good model to organize the church. But the best businesses run without a strict hierarchy, and they listen to their employees. I work for a hospital, and the latest thing is to give people money back for staying in shape and healthy. They constantly look for input to run the business better. They take care of the community. My boss isn’t breathing down my neck, and I can go to him if I see an issue that needs fixing. The church should be concerned about the congregants’ spiritual health, looking for ways to build community, and the pastor/elders should not be micromanaging our lives. Actually, I lean toward the modern church done without a pastor, my study of Hebrews is going to point out why. I’m starting an outline right now.
@ KayJay: Thank you for the nice comment!
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
It is just one more source from which to misquote.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist: Still love your name. i laugh whenever I read it.
Good to Great. For example, as I’m sure our distinguished bloggers are going to continue talker about, his famous idea of “getting the right people on the bus” has very little in common with the typical Calvanista habit of populating leadership teams with “yes men”.
Of course, an organizationally healthy church is not a guarantor of spiritual health among the congregation. But, generally, a church that is run in a healthy way is, in many ways, better equipped for caring for the spiritual needs of the congregation than a dysfunctional or mismanaged one.
Apologies. My preceeding comment was supposed to read as follows:
There are principles of organizational health that transcend the differences between churches and businesses. Although Collins’ research comes from study of business corporations, I think that applies to the principles he uncovers in Good to Great. For example, as I’m sure our distinguished bloggers are going to continue talker about, his famous idea of “getting the right people on the bus” has very little in common with the typical Calvanista habit of populating leadership teams with “yes men”.
Of course, an organizationally healthy church is not a guarantor of spiritual health among the congregation. But, generally, a church that is run in a healthy way is, in many ways, better equipped for caring for the spiritual needs of the congregation than a dysfunctional or mismanaged one.
@Janey – loved the link!
As for getting laughs, after a day in my classroom with toddlers, I was scrolling through the comments and thought Velvet Voice wrote about the church being run as a circus. But now that I think of it, that’s probably close to reality.
Dee,
You stopped the 1 Cor 12 passage too soon! It tells us what to do with the weaker members – the nobodies – in the next several verses. Maybe that can be your next post?
JeffS,
I see your point.
In my area, I have seen all too often the ugly side of Authoritarian church members that can be prevalent in smaller churches…And yes, pastors facing abuse can be severe in some of these churches along with other members who do not have the “power”.
This usually comes in the form of a “ruling family” who may have some major financial tie to the church or part of the church’s origin…or it could come from a group of deacons…I have seen this in some pastors too, but in my area it usually comes from certain members in the church..
I have been part of some ugly business meetings where other members are so afraid to speak up because “that deacon” or “that person” may say something..Sometimes these members have to leave the church because they feel cut off due to these authoritarian members…and sadly so many times the pastor will not STEP in due to fear of losing his job.
I have seen some members speak up about an issue and yelling matches ensue—ugly, ugly stuff. Business meetings can be some of the most painful experiences in a church from what I have seen over the years..
It really doesn’t matter what church exists—mega or small backwoods country church…This power trip can find it’s way in.. Whether over a group of “Yes man” Elders who make all the decisions for the church or in the form of a group of deacons or family who holds sway over a small country church (even in light of “open forum” business meetings)…
As far as pastors who are potentially abused in some of these churches, I agree with Anon 1 that the first 5 years are SO important in getting to know the congregation..I think that can build trust and make a difference, but sometimes that power rears its ugly head no matter how well the pastor knows the congregation. Sometimes the only thing left to do for the pastor is to concede to this authoritarianism (which I think can lead to even bigger problems), leave the church, or stay and try to help “free” the church from this authoritarianism (without falling into pastoral authoritarianism)which is always a painful road to go down.
I for one cannot wait for the day when New Heavens and New Earth will wipe away any and all of this power trip nonsense… In full view of the TRUE King we will find our so called “power” was just ash in our hands…
Dee –
I have it on good authority (my imagination) that CJ, Inc. is working on an epic sequel to his fictional work “Humility”. The new tome is called “From Bad to Worse – How to Shipwreck Your Denomination, Church, or Family (and garner accolades while doing it!)”.
I’m reading the galleys now,
Former SG Pastor
PS – advice to abused pastors – “LEAVE. NOW.”
Pingback: WW: How Sidelining Members Is Harming the Church
KayJay
You ask @ Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 11:42 AM…
“where on earth did we get the idea that pastors are our rulers?”
From the pastors of course… 😉
They’re the experts – right?
Says so right there on their Diplomas, and Licenses, and sunday Morning bulletin… 😉
Sergius Martin-George – KayJay
Here’s something I’ve seen about those who take the “Title” pastor – what do you think?
Seems, If they’re taking God’s name, and taking that name in vain – In Vain – That’s a No No…
Ex 20:7
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;
for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
I used to think – “Taking His Name in Vain” – meant saying – “G… D…. it,” or some such thing. Using God’s Name as a curse word. But – Today – I think it has to do with someone “Wanting to be like God.” Or, at least God Like. And taking for themselves – the names and “Titles” of God — In Vain.
Because, one day, I do a little word study for – Name – and – Vain. 😉
I check out Strongs Concordance and the Dictionary.
Name – In Strongs – #8034 = shem –
1 – a definite and *conspicuous position… – (conspicuous=standing out, clearly visible)
2 – an *appellation… (a name or “Title”)
3 – by implication honor, authority, character.
Vain – In Strongs = #7723 = shav’ –
1 – in the sense of *desolating; – (desolate = bleak and dismal emptiness)
2 – evil (as *destructive), – (*destructive = causing great and irreparable harm)
3 – figuratively *idolatry – ( *idolatry = worship, admiration, reverence for something)
4 – idolatry (as deceptive,)
5 – *vain – ( *vain = having an excessively high opinion of ones, abilities, or worth)
6 – *vanity – (*vanity = pride in or admiration of ones own achievements)
Ex 20:7
Thou shalt not take the *name ( *position, title, honor, authority.) Of the Lord thy God…
And – Of the LORD thy God in *vain; (* idolatry, deceptive, high opinion of ones, abilities.)
And here are 3 – “Names” – “Titles” – of God, you can find in the Bible…
Shepherd – Leader – Reverend —- Aren’t these *names* “Titles” of the LORD thy God?
1 – Shepherd – God/Jesus is called – Shepherd
The Lord is my *shepherd.* Psalm 23:1.
…returned unto the *Shepherd* and Bishop of your souls. 1 Pet 2:25.
…they shall Hear MY Voice; and there shall be …and “ONE” *shepherd.* John 10:27
2 – Leader – God/Jesus is called – Leader
And do NOT be called *leaders;* for “ONE” is your *Leader,* that is, Christ.
Mat 23:10 NASB.
God exalted him at his right hand as *Leader* and Savior…
Acts 5:31 ESV
3 – Reverend – God/Jesus is called – Reverend
…holy and **reverend** is his *name. Psalm 111:9 KJV — (*name. = shem)
Hmmm? What about – Todays – Shepherds – Leaders – Reverends – ?
Aren’t these *Names* “Titles” of the LORD thy God?
Are they taking “God’s Name” — And taking that Name – in Vain? Oy Vey!!! 🙁
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
And – Sergius Martin-George – KayJay
In my experience…
“Titles” become “Idols” ………………. “Idols” of the heart. Ezek 14:1-11 KJV
“Pastors” become “Masters” ………. A No, No, Mat 23:10 KJV
A. Amos Love wrote:
I think I feel a rap coming on.
Break it down, Amos!
Jeff M wrote:
You are correct. The right people, according to Scripture, are not necessarily the movers and shakers. In fact, Jesus was countercultural, choosing the “right” people who were often outcasts.
Jeff M wrote:
I’m distinguished now? My mom will be so pleased. 🙂
@ Steve Scott: I did stop it there. I intend to deal with more of the passage in the next post, probably Friday.
@ dee:
The weaker people, in God’s economy, are the right people.
A. Amos Love wrote:
Don’t forget the Honorary Doctorates…
dee wrote:
Jesus should have chosen Jerusalem University boys or Athens MBAs, and put together a well-capitalized plan with a 3-year end game. He ended up with a band of fishermen, a former swindler, a guy who wasn’t really convinced about the strategy, and an anti-Rome protestor. Not to mention a few others so inconsequential that their names are all we know about them.
It’s typical upside-down-God-reasoning: first will be last; the least will be greatest; the leader must be a servant; the oldest will serve the youngest; the prostitute will be a revered ancestor; the youngest will be king. God loves dramatic reversals.
dee wrote:
Including D&Ders, Anime Otaku, Furries, and Bronies?