Hey Mom, JD Hall Is Giving Me Nightmares!

"Those heart-hammering nightmares that start to lose coherence even as you're waking up from them, but that still manage to leave their moldering fingerprints all across your day.” ― Mike Carey, The Naming of the Beasts link

Julie Anne Smith
Julie Anne Smith
 

Today has been a day that tries a blogger's soul. People who have been sexually, physically or emotionally abused as children bear the scars of this betrayal for their whole life. People who have been abused are individuals who deal with their pain in different ways.

  • Some confront their abusers in the prime of their life.
  • Others decide to separate themselves from the environment that reminds them of the pain and go on to to new lives.
  • Others suffer horrendous mental anguish that they never get over, even with professional help.
  • Some want to shout their abuse from the rooftops and others want to quietly cry alone.
  • Sometimes, one person may exhibit all of the above at various times in their life and even a few within one day.
  • Sometimes all of these responses can be seen within closed family situations with multiple abuse victims, children and adults.

It is incumbent on all of us to understand family dynamics as we navigate these dark waters and to be sensitive to all involved. That is what Deb and I tried to accomplish today, with varying degrees of success. As always our hearts go out to those who have been wounded by horrendous abuse.

Due to the emotional toll of the day, we are changing our planned post dealing with TGC's latest missive on a gospel approach to sexual abuse and turn, instead, to a book that Julie Anne Smith covered on her wonderful blog, Spiritual Sounding Board. As an aside, she just wrote a great post dealing with Mark Dever and CJ Mahaney here.

However, the post we are focusing on today received 495 comments and she has given me carte blanche to rip off her post. She and I tweeted about this post over a few days and we spoke today. Well, actually I called her and said I was quitting blogging and becoming a lady of leisure. Deb remarked we could be doing brunch instead! Never fear, we realized if we lunched and brunched, we would become fat and that would interfere with our adorableness. We have recovered our good senses and are back now. Thank you Julie Anne!

In 2005, the following book, Help! Mom! There Are Liberals Under the Bed! was published.

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Amazon

Here is the description from Amazon link.

This full-color illustrated book is a fun way for parents to teach young children the valuable lessons of conservatism. Written in simple text, readers can follow along with Tommy and Lou as they open a lemonade stand to earn money for a swing set. But when liberals start demanding that Tommy and Lou pay half their money in taxes, take down their picture of Jesus, and serve broccoli with every glass of lemonade, the young brothers experience the downside to living in Liberaland.

Well, this is America and we all know that conservative political values and Christianity are both Biblical, arent they? Well, apparently JD Hall, thinks so and he appears to have adopted the general theme of scary liberals hiding under the bed for his book, Help Mom! There are Arminians Under My Bed. Are there spooky Arminian monsters lurking under the bed, ready to destroy the souls of totally depraved boys and girls.

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Amazon
 

Here is the description of this book, published in January, 2013, which is available only on Kindle for $3.99 or used for $386.32 I kid you not.(Check it out) Warning: No matter how much you are tempted, do not pay $386.32.

Come along on a journey with Mitchell, as he recalls his nightmare for his mother. Mitchell was in a land of darkness and gloom, when due to no cooperation of his own, a Knight in shining armor saved him and all the other captives He intended to save. “Help, Mom!”is a children’s allegory designed to teach your kids the Doctrines of Grace through the use of creative story-telling.

However, it appears that the book was republished under a different name, Help! Arminians are Giving Me Nightmares Again! several months later.

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Amazon


I wonder, did the publisher of Help Mom, There Are Liberals Under the Bed not take kindly to the "similarities" of JD Hall's book? Here is the description at Amazon. Sounds the same as the previous book.

Come along on a journey with Mitchell, as he recalls his nightmare for his mother. Mitchell was in a land of darkness and gloom, when due to no cooperation of his own, a Knight in shining armor saved him and all the other captives He intended to save. "Help! Arminians are Giving Me Nightmares Again!" is a children’s allegory designed to teach your kids the Doctrines of Grace through the use of creative story-telling.
 

So who is JD Hall, the author? According to Amazon:

Hall is the pastor of Fellowship Church in Eastern Montana, where he lives with his wife, Mandy, and three children. JD is a co-founder of Reformation Montana, a network and mission society consisting of Reformed Baptist churches in Montana and the surrounding region. He is a columnist for the Intermountain Christian News, and operates the Pulpit and Pen website. JD received his B.A. in Christian Education from Williams Baptist College and M.A. in History from Arkansas State University.

Unfortunately, as of 7 PM today, his blog, Pulpit and Pen, link is not accessible as it was the other day. Perhaps there is a ground swell of interest in "Ordo Salutis" that has crashed the site? Thoughtful, fun-loving children's theology can be somewhat difficult to obtain. However, be not dismayed. His Twitter account link is up and active. Julie Anne (aka Jezebel) Smith and he had quite an exchange. Due to the sensitive nature surrounding the book, you might think he would be concerned to show thoughtfulness and nuance in his approach to this matter link. Here are some of his tweets.

  • I would ditch labels, but it would devolve into the elementary, naive and anemic Christianity I see displayed on your blog.
  • I don't think you understand how drenched in post-modern philosophy you are. What's offensive to you is saying "I'm right."
  • When did evangelicalism become so sensitive? Probably when we started having women preachers, I'd bet. "Thou shalt not offend"
  • I'm sorry, are lady pastors Biblical? Or is that not a Christian "essential"?
  • OK, you're getting blocked for being the tone police. GO AWAY.
  • casting pearls before feminists.

JD Hall commented at Julie Anne's site.

JD Hall
JUNE 1, 2013 @ 3:04 PM

Julie,

1. No, I do not believe teaching “the essentials” are enough. Primarily, because we are told to teach “the whole counsel of God’s Word” and because “all of the Scripture is good for reproof, correction, formation of sound doctrine,” etc.. Secondarily, because the only way we can determine what “the essentials” are is by our own standards of priority. Who’s the person that decides that? Who decides what is an essential? Third, the Doctrines of Grace deal directly with the topic of salvation (what it is, how it works, how it’s given etc) which I feel to be pretty darn essential.

2. No, correctly understanding salvation is not a requirement FOR salvation. However (speaking for myself and my own development as a believer), understanding the grace-aspect of salvation GREATLY benefits my understanding of God’s glory and elevates my worship to understand the vast depths and heights of his saving grace. Also, it IS necessary for Biblical ecclesiology, missiology, etc. It plays into so much of how we Christians conduct ourselves both in our own lives and within the church.

3. It doesn’t concern me (as in, “keep me up at night”) that people would take issue with the cover, assuming they would read the contents. Ironically, most complaints about the cover include some insult toward me not being open-minded, which I find less than sincere if they didn’t read the content. The cover is meant as a novelty – something we can laugh about. If we can’t laugh about things, we’re pretty messed up people.

4. Concerning big words, I’ve often used this example: If you went to the doctor and he diagnosed you with “Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis” (which is an actual medical disorder, I didn’t make that up) you would not only soak in everything the doctor had to say about it, but ask for a brochure and literature that you could go home and read. You would search on WebMD and Google it and learn everything there is to know about it. You would talk about it to all your friends. You wouldn’t say, “I just can’t figure out these big words.” You can learn about what’s important to you. That’s #1 – we are a smart, literate people. Words like “Ordo Salutis” and “Monergism” aren’t complicated. We can handle them. And to anyone that says kids can’t handle these words, I can introduce you to a whole lot of kids that not only know those words, but can explain other words like “propitiation, expiation, sanctification, justification” and those are Biblical words (man didn’t make them up). Those are within the Text itself.

And so I would fundamentally deny that we need to keep our teachings “simple.” This is the Word of God we’re talking about. If he gave it to us, it’s for us to know. And there’s nothing wrong about being intellectual about it. I call the opposite thinking of this “bumper-sticker theology” (if it’s too big to fit in a catchy slogan on a bumper sticker it’s too big). It creates the watered down and (not trying to be mean) basically ignorant Christianity that’s prevalent in modern evangelicalism.

I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to answer these questions, but I’ll say this concerning much of what I’ve seen here and in a few Amazon reviews: If people want others to be nicer, they don’t need to be so mean in the process.

Our own Sergius Martin George left a great comment over at Julie Anne's site.

 just noticed that the first book was titled, “Help Mom, there are Arminians Under My Bed.”

It took me a while to realize that, whatever anyone finds offensive — or not — in the title, it is the MOM to whom the child is appealing. Why not the DAD? Isn’t it Fathers who bear ultimate responsibility for the spiritual well-being of the family? So why is MOM being asked for help in fending off the Arminians?

I’ll tell you why: it’s nothing less than a flat-out rebellion against The Creation Order(TM), and I’m not standing for it, JD Hall!!! I’m reporting you to the Baylys and the Dougs this instant, my friend! What kind of Reformed Baptist are you, anyway???!!!

I decided that, instead of launching into a tirade about the obvious problems with the title of this book, we should have a good laugh about it. One of Julie Anne's readers produced this fabulous cartoon.

julieann-book-image
 

I end this with a question. Will they know we are Christian by our monergism?

Lydia's Corner: 1 Kings 1:1-53 Acts 4:1-37 Psalm 124:1-8 Proverbs 16:24

Comments

Hey Mom, JD Hall Is Giving Me Nightmares! — 166 Comments

  1. Okay…after reading “God Chose You Fish” I couldn’t resist showing my (lack of) age here…

    So is God a big Pokemon trainer in the sky?

    ; )

  2. I want you all to know how serious Dee was about quitting blogging. When the phone rang, she didn’t even let me say “hi” before going into her tirade. Whoa! 🙂

    BTW, that cute graphic at the bottom with all those titles – – – Gary started off on it and then others followed with more contributions. Another reader compiled them all to create the cute graphic. Readers ROCK! So funny! I laughed my head off. Oh, and one more thing, I either mentioned in my article or in the comments that I searched 10 minutes trying to find a children’s book about Calvinist nightmares, but couldn’t find anything comparable. I try to be fair.

  3. You must have felt like you were beating your head against a wall. The cartoon was hilarious!

  4. I’ve been meaning to write about this on my blog & I will certainly be linking here so that more people can read those fabulous title suggestions from Julie’s readers. I’ve got my own to contribute: Alexander and His Terrible, Horrible, No-Good Total Depravity.

    Or maybe “Charlotte’s Web of Pelagianism”

    Or perhaps “Cloudy with a Foreordained Certainty of Meatballs”

    This is too much fun!

  5. I guess I am at the lowest moment I have been in a while after reading this article.

    There is nothing worse than ministers who scare the literal hell out of kids into some sort of a confession of faith.

    These are the same kids who later no longer attend church, or become so messed up psychologically it follows them for the remainder of their lives.

  6. Julie Anne wrote:

    Oh, and one more thing, I either mentioned in my article or in the comments that I searched 10 minutes trying to find a children’s book about Calvinist nightmares, but couldn’t find anything comparable. I try to be fair.

    Hee Hee. Now finding John Calvin under your bed would be scary. but he would send magistrates to scare you instead so not really applicable. :o)

  7. K.D. wrote:

    There is nothing worse than ministers who scare the literal hell out of kids into some sort of a confession of faith.
    These are the same kids who later no longer attend church, or become so messed up psychologically it follows them for the remainder of their lives.

    KD, There are blogs written by the now adult children of those who were brought up in these cultish narrow thinking groups—- who are now talking about it.
    And that is a big difference. Social media is changing everything. what bothers my soul is all the years they lose being taught to hate and fear those who are different from them.

  8. Interesting post. That JD Hall sounds like such a friendly fellow 😉 (meant sarcastically) My favorite title….One Fish, Two Fish, God Chose You Fish….LOVE IT!

  9. “But when liberals start demanding that Tommy and Lou pay half their money in taxes, take down their picture of Jesus, and serve broccoli with every glass of lemonade, the young brothers experience the downside to living in Liberaland…

    Cute to be sure. But what they’ll never tell Tommy and Lou is that when Jenny’s (publically traded) comes to town, puts a stand on every corner, undercuts them with an inferior product, and drives them out of business, they (Jenny’s) won’t pay a damn dime in taxes.

  10. That cartoon at the end was possibly the best thing I’ve read so far this week. I was smiling to myself through the start and then literally busted out in guffaws at “One Fish, Two Fish, God Chose You Fish.”

    I’m morbidly fascinated by the idea of a reformed version of the Calvin & Hobbes comic strip now. Talk about nightmare fuel.

    Thanks for ending this on a funny note.

  11. “Well, actually I called her and said I was quitting blogging and becoming a lady of leisure.”

    Slackers! Haha!

    I followed this for a while and admit that I, too, became a lady of leisure and stopped when it hit over 100.

  12. JA, That “Coolvinism” tweet is hilarious. I just went and read some of the other tweets. I love parody.

  13. At the recent Reformation Montana 2013 Conference, which attracted the likes of Phil Johnson, Paul Washer, Chris Rosebrough, and James White (who debated Justin Lee of the Gay Christian Network), Rev. Hall gave a keynote address titled, “A Modern Day Downgrade: A Call for Repentance to Southern Baptists and to Other Evangelicals,” which you can watch on YouTube HERE. He seems to relish his emerging identity as a Reformed Baptist gadfly in the tradition of Spurgeon (hence the “downgrade” shout-out).

    After strenuously establishing his Baptist bona fides—-most notably and effectively by his invariable pronunciation of the word “BaB’-Dist”—-he takes his own denomination to task. Interestingly, his targets include Louisiana College, which he accuses of “institutional bullying,” a choice of words that shows a remarkable lack of self-awareness, given his recent interactions with Julie Anne and other recent Twitter followers, such as Stephen Carter, whom JD asked if he was “wearing a purse,” when Mr. Carter dared to question a Tweet about romantic, “Jesus-is-my-boyfriend”-type worship songs.

    Towards the end of his presentation, though, Mr. Hall makes a side comment as he attempts to illustrate his displeasure over evangelistic techniques that he thinks cheapens the name of Christ. “If I come into an establishment and use the restroom and I see my wife’s name on a bathroom stall, I’m coming for you. Hard.” That comment was the first thing I remembered today when I read his execrable Tweet concerning the “casting of pearls before feminists,” a reference to Julie Anne, whom he has dismissed—-with no good reason-—as a feminist and a postmodernist.

    “I don’t think you understand how drenched in postmodernist philosophy you are,” he lectured her a few days ago. Well Mr. Hall, I don’t think you realize how drenched in your own hypocrisy you are. It seems to me you are guilty of the Twitter-equivalent of writing our sister Julie Anne’s name on the wall. Is that okay? Or should someone come after you?

  14. Hester wrote:

    So is God a big Pokemon trainer in the sky?

    It’s like the parable of the fish (Matt 13 47-49). Some are Goldeens, Horseas and Dratinis; others are Magicarp and Tentacools (the Zubats of the sea).

  15. @Evie, regarding your comment in the previous post, I totally forgive you. I’m glad we were able to work that little back-and-forth out. I think it’s a testament to how communication in the blogosphere can work — people comment with different perspective / different passions .. people read someone’s comment in a different light than it was written .. etc. Here’s the important part: as long as people continue to dialog; continue to talk; continue to be open and honest, then problems and differences can be worked out OR you can agree to disagree.

    Too many people are afraid to approach “the blogs” .. too many people are afraid of strong opinion and strong emotions (especially when they are against their own belief system!)

    ..

    For the record, I don’t consider myself a “survivor”. I currently attend CLC, but I’m not one that has been there for 15 or 25 years. I don’t think I’ve been a kool-aid drinker–too much. It certainly didn’t shape my view of Christianity or how I lived my life (go to a pastor about major life decision for his “blessing”–that’s a good one!) BUT I do see a lot of people who still live with that mindset.

    Regarding the current mess (Brent’s blog post yesterday) — if all of that is true about CLC pastors not doing anything in 1996 and then again in 2008/2010, I don’t see how CLC can justify the actions of former and current pastors.

  16. “Others suffer horrendous mental anguish that they never get over, even with professional help.”

    There is so much pressure to get over your abuse in these circles, ugh.

    I regret that I pretended that Jesus had healed me of my past. My past marked me and still haunts me today.

    Thanks for recognizing & stating that some don’t get over it even with professional help.

  17. SMG – Great summary – and very accurate. I also have a private Twitter conversation that was pretty condescending as well. Here was the first barrage. Private messages on Twitter only allow limited characters and so the quotes are shown as they were privately tweeted:

    I don’t like cluttering my feed. Post-modernism basically says, “You can’t be sure what is sure” and so the most offensive thing is to say..

    “You are wrong and I am right.” That seems to offend you. That would not have offended you outside the post-modern era. I’d research that a

    bit. I’m not insulting, I’m saying literally you are post-modern. I believe it’s a philosophy outside the bound of Christian logic or reason

    Concerning your doctrine, I don’t know a thing about it except it seems you have a really watered down, “simple” or elementary understanding

    and are satisfied with it, but I don’t believe it to be commendable. It seems you’re saying, “this level of Bible understanding is enough.”

    He then gave an Albert Mohler link (Is truth really plural Postmodernism in full flower) and another link: http://www.christianity.co.nz/truth5.htm 

    I asked him if he was New Calvinist like Al and here was his response:

    I don’t think Mohler would call himself a Calvinist or a New Calvinist. I would not call myself such; also implies YRR, which I am not.

    Someone please decipher the above quote for me. Isn’t he saying he’s not a Calvinist or NC/YRR? Yet he writes a children’s book against Arminianism and the Table of Contents includes TULIP. Ok, I give up, what is he?

    “I think you know so little of theology that you yourself are incapable of judging anyone.”

  18. @ Julie Anne:
    It’s always upsetting to see someone so incapable of viewing themselves as fallible–that superior attitude oozes base worldliness. I hope that one day he grows up, and can get to the point that he looks back with regret on his foolish younger days.

  19. @ Julie Anne:
    I think the new code word is “reformed” because googling Calvinism turns people off it. Better to pretend you are “reformed” and then go act like a Calvinist, fatalist (determinist), misogynist, but claim you are nothing of the sort (you just think men and women are equal differently – and if a women isn’t happy about being stuck at home doing dishes and having 5 kids b/c that is what her husband wants, then she is just stupid, rebellious, unable to handle reality, not saved, liberal, etc., etc., etc.

    …but it’s OK, he’s not a Neo Calvinist, so none of that would apply.

  20. @sergius-Martin George,
    Can you explain why Chris Rosebrough is there? He is a Lutheran??!! I’m disturbed by him because I have loved hearing so many Lutherans speak and enjoy their writing. Then I hear that he is in cahoots with these guys. What’s up with that?

  21. Honestly, as somebody that attends a PCA (Presbyterian Church in America) congregation, I find the whole book creepy.

    Also I’m very encouraged that you guys are tracking the sex abuse stuff and the New Calvinism nonsense. Honestly, I don’t think Calvinism is the problem. I think the metaphysical certitude and Free Churchery of the Baptists is the problem. We should stand against abuse, even if the “doctrine” is correct. And honestly, if your associating of churches is abusing hundreds of people, your doctrine is probably from the depths of Hell.

    Lord have mercy.

  22. @ Val:
    Reformed and Calvinist are not the same thing, and “reformed” is certainly not new. One can be a Calvinist without being Reformed, but not the other way around. Calvinism = TULIP, whereas Reformed would include the broader theology of the reformers (including covenant theology).

    Also, I don’t think Reformed theology says anything specifically about the roles of women. For example. I don’t think the Westminster Confession of Faith mentions anything about complementarianism or egalitarianism. And the PC(USA) is both Reformed and Calvinist as far as I know and definitely allows for the ordination of women.

    I would consider myself mostly Reformed and Calvinist and find the book creepy on the face of it. I also disagree with a lot of what Hall is quoted as saying, except for point 2. I do think my views on Calvinism have enhanced my Christian life and I don’t believe they are necessary for salvation.

  23. SJ Gonzalez wrote:

    And honestly, if your association of churches is abusing hundreds of people, your doctrine is probably from the depths of Hell.

    I think there’s a lot of “technically correct” doctrine that is from the depths of hell. If I had the gift of prophecy and could fathom all knowledge (“all knowledge” would include doctrine and biblical bible knowledge), but had no love, I would be nothing. Theology by itself, in other words, is nothing. But it seems there are still a great many preachers and teachers who aspire to spend their whole lives in pursuit of nothing.

    It’s a funny word, “love”. It’s not a big word, in English, Greek or Hebrew. And yet the Biblescriptures tell us repeatedly that it is the heart, soul and ultimate goal of all God’s commandments. When I listen to men considered nowadays as wise and learned trumpeting their theology against the post-moderns, liberals, feminists, emergents, arminians and simpletons who think The Shack is a good read, it reminds me of an old claim: “This mob that knows nothing of the law – they are accursed”.

    It’s perfectly true that a child can easily learn a dictionary definition of “propitiation”. But why on earth would you want to waste the mind of a child on such σκύβαλα, when the same child could actually help you learn the meaning of love?

  24. Gail wrote:

    There is so much pressure to get over your abuse in these circles, ugh.
    I regret that I pretended that Jesus had healed me of my past. My past marked me and still haunts me today.

    Yep, abuse is often permanently damaging. It is like being in a bad car accident. Emergency care, surgery and long hard therapy help a great deal, but one might remain paralyzed with short-term memory problems (as eg).

    People who insist that we’re not letting go and letting God, are talking from fear. They don’t want to recognize that minds and spirits are as vulnerable to being trashed as are bodies. The idea of having so little control terrifies them, so they refuse it. The bogey-man under their bed is “Chaos”. That goes for JD Hall, too.

    It has helped me to remember that it is their problem, not ours. They need to grow up, learn more about love, because perfect love casts out fear. They also need to learn humility (humans do not run the world) and faith (whether I live or die, I am God’s).

    As to regrets, yeah, well, Jesus wears a permanently wry grin for all of us, I imagine. But he knows where we are. And he is remarkably patient.

    I wish you well.

  25. @ Julie Anne:

    I don’t get how he thinks you don’t like people saying they’re right and you’re wrong. Um, you have a blog which kind of means you think you’re right about certain things (and by implication people who disagree with you are wrong)? If you didn’t think you could say what was right and wrong on some level, why would you be blogging?

  26. @ Julie Anne:
    JD Hall presents as dumb and mean. He doesn’t know what post-modernism is, what women are, what children’s books are, what the Bible is, what compassion is. He has little logic and much judgment. Neener neener

    I think he should become a night guard and read books through the dark quiet hours of the night. I’d be glad to assign him a reading list.

  27. Hey, Dee and Deb, people get vacations, you know? It wouldn’t be too difficult to close comments, and put out a sign “Gone fishin'”.

    You have a stressful job.

  28. Julie Anne wrote:

    “I think you know so little of theology that you yourself are incapable of judging anyone.”

    JD Halls is apparently a parser par excellence, and if he differs on merely two minor doctrines, he wouldn’t call himself Calvinist. He thinks parsing is the godly way to approach the world and when someone doesn’t do likewise, they don’t know anything. (Because the world’s black/white like that.)

    And here’s the big tell, he does what he does to judge others. (Really?!) But you can’t do that because you don’t parse. I’m sure that makes you terribly sad lol.

  29. DEE

    Please don’t stop blogging. Nor you Deb. There are so many people that need to be helped. I can’t help to think where I would be today if you had quit blogging before my friend John told me about TWW. I would have given up on God, that’s where I would have been. We will all keep you in our prayers as ask God to give you both strength and endurance to continue. The bible never said following God’s call would be easy. HANG IN THERE!

  30. Patrice wrote:

    He doesn’t know what post-modernism is,

    I always crack up at the– you are “post modern”– insult. Heck, for all intents purposes, Pontius Pilate was “post modern”.

  31. Patrice wrote:

    Hey, Dee and Deb, people get vacations, you know? It wouldn’t be too difficult to close comments, and put out a sign “Gone fishin’”.

    You have a stressful job.

    Yes. That is what I was thinking yesterday.

  32. Sergius Martin-George wrote:

    At the recent Reformation Montana 2013 Conference, which attracted the likes of Phil Johnson, Paul Washer, Chris Rosebrough, and James White (who debated Justin Lee of the Gay Christian Network), Rev. Hall gave a keynote address titled, “A Modern Day Downgrade: A Call for Repentance to Southern Baptists and to Other Evangelicals,” which you can watch on YouTube HERE. He seems to relish his emerging identity as a Reformed Baptist gadfly in the tradition of Spurgeon (hence the “downgrade” shout-out).

    After strenuously establishing his Baptist bona fides—-most notably and effectively by his invariable pronunciation of the word “BaB’-Dist”—-he takes his own denomination to task. Interestingly, his targets include Louisiana College, which he accuses of “institutional bullying,” a choice of words that shows a remarkable lack of self-awareness, given his recent interactions with Julie Anne and other recent Twitter followers, such as Stephen Carter, whom JD asked if he was “wearing a purse,” when Mr. Carter dared to question a Tweet about romantic, “Jesus-is-my-boyfriend”-type worship songs.

    Towards the end of his presentation, though, Mr. Hall makes a side comment as he attempts to illustrate his displeasure over evangelistic techniques that he thinks cheapens the name of Christ. “If I come into an establishment and use the restroom and I see my wife’s name on a bathroom stall, I’m coming for you. Hard.” That comment was the first thing I remembered today when I read his execrable Tweet concerning the “casting of pearls before feminists,” a reference to Julie Anne, whom he has dismissed—-with no good reason-—as a feminist and a postmodernist.

    “I don’t think you understand how drenched in postmodernist philosophy you are,” he lectured her a few days ago. Well Mr. Hall, I don’t think you realize how drenched in your own hypocrisy you are. It seems to me you are guilty of the Twitter-equivalent of writing our sister Julie Anne’s name on the wall. Is that okay? Or should someone come after you?

    You know, it is funny how they use the “downgrade”. McArthur used to use it all the time. In fact, it was quite the focus in one of his books on truth (cannot remember the name).

    It never occurs to them that Spurgeon might have overreacted and went all authoritiarian as being the persecuted martyr in that scenerio. The guy was the pastor of one of the first mega churches in London! I mean the man was trashing his own brother as a heretic in public! But nevermind, none of us were there and history is always more nuanced. But note that Spurgeon is NEVER wrong. The Puritans were NEVER wrong…Edwards was NEVER wrong, etc….or they were just people of their time to excuse hanging witches, wiping out Indian tribes, disciplining sucides, etc

    I get real uncomfortable when they present history so one sided and then try to piggyback off of it as if they are now facing the same thing. They want so bad to be perfumed comfortable martyrs.

    Chris Roseboroug has gone to the dark side. :o)

  33. It’s just the beginning wrote:

    @Evie, regarding your comment in the previous post, I totally forgive you. I’m glad we were able to work that little back-and-forth out. I think it’s a testament to how communication in the blogosphere can work — people comment with different perspective / different passions .

    Thank you for this.

  34. @ Anon 1: Interesting. His church is a few miles from where we live. It appears most of their church writes blogs. Maybe we should visit.

  35. Anon 1 wrote:

    But note that Spurgeon is NEVER wrong. The Puritans were NEVER wrong…Edwards was NEVER wrong, etc….or they were just people of their time to excuse hanging witches, wiping out Indian tribes, disciplining sucides, etc

    The Party Can Do No Wrong.
    Ees Party Line, Comrade.

  36. Patrice wrote:

    JD Halls is apparently a parser par excellence, and if he differs on merely two minor doctrines, he wouldn’t call himself Calvinist.

    A.W.Pink Syndrome. According to Internet Monk, Pink was some sort of Calvinist theologian who spent the last twenty years of his life worshipping at home alone because All Other Churches were Heretic and Apostate according to his Perfectly-parsed Reformed Theology. Pink actually achieved the theoretical end state of Protestantism — millions of One True Churches, each with only One member, each denouncing all the others as Heretics and Apostates.

    He thinks parsing is the godly way to approach the world and when someone doesn’t do likewise, they don’t know anything.

    Because “It all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.”

    And this is also a standard shtick of an Intellectual Snob.

    (Because the world’s black/white like that.)

    How else can you be Infinite Good and all others Infinite Evil?

    “HERE AHURA-MAZDA, THERE AHRIMAN!!!”

    “On the contrary, in the devil’s theology, the important thing is to be absolutely right and to prove that everybody else is absolutely wrong. This does not exactly make for peace and unity among men.”
    — Thomas Merton, “Moral Theology of the Devil”
    http://thegroundoffaith.net/issues/2008-10/Merton.htm

  37. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    It’s perfectly true that a child can easily learn a dictionary definition of “propitiation”. But why on earth would you want to waste the mind of a child on such σκύβαλα, when the same child could actually help you learn the meaning of love?

    Reminds me of the Radio Free Europe commercials during the Cold War. The one that showed a Russian/Eastern European child in his Young Pioneers uniform rote-reciting The Marxist-Leninist Party Line.

  38. @ anonymous:

    Probably. Cannot remember. I know I read that one. McArthur thinks he is so authoritative. Wears me out.

    If anyone has seen Cheryl Schatz’ DVD Series, Women in Ministry, she pulls out some McArthur audio teaching on women that is so very ignorant I could not believe it. I cannot understand why he is so believed and not questioned by more young men.

  39. I went to college with J.D. or as he was known in college as Jordan. We had classes together and occassionally ate in the student center together. He was frequently challenging professors on their positions and just generally not very content. It’s not really surprising to see him taking this tact. It is a bit surprising to see that he has received an audience for his ideas and teachings.

  40. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Pink actually achieved the theoretical end state of Protestantism — millions of One True Churches, each with only One member, each denouncing all the others as Heretics and Apostates.

    Yet he failed to take that last difficult step of purity discipline, protesting his self.

    Hard to be purrfect, dontcha know.

  41. Another great post — and much needed laughs. I was following this on twitter yesterday, and his arrogant “Casting pearls before feminists” tweet…just…wow. Please, please don’t stop blogging!! You have been instrumental in changing my life.

  42. Hester wrote:

    I don’t get how he thinks you don’t like people saying they’re right and you’re wrong. Um, you have a blog which kind of means you think you’re right about certain things (and by implication people who disagree with you are wrong)? If you didn’t think you could say what was right and wrong on some level, why would you be blogging?

    The whole thing is silly. He says he’s right and I’m wrong and then he blocks me. Just like the TGC bloggers who shut down comments.

    @ dee:

    Where did you find Lloyd Legalists? Hilarious. Thanks!

  43. Yes, don’t teach children doctrine, teach them love. It astounds me that anyone would even have to say this! (sorry – long post but this issue really gets to me)

    The “liberal” and “secular” population grows in this country by the day. 20% of American adults say they do not believe in any religion, and 46 million say they are religiously unaffiliated. I’ve heard religious/conservative groups attribute this cultural shift to the tempting worldly but sinful freedoms of liberalism or the devil, but from my own experience I think it is their own doing. In the 60’s, the liberation movement for women and minorities changed the culture and the religious population felt very threatened by this. Their historically reactionary ways led to the rise of evangelicals – what we now know as the religious right. This counterattack to liberalism produced groups that (in response) fanatically adhered to and obsessed over tradition, authority, and a taught paranoia of the secular world, suppression of diversity of thought, strict and narrow minded parenting, instilling fear as a motivator, and created an insulated culture of US v. THEM with social issues to direct their rising anger and judgment on.

    As a child who was raised in this very narrow minded vein, where there are never acceptable alternatives, it becomes quite a shock as an adult to discover the lengths to which the many adults in my life went to, to convince me and indoctrinate me with the ONE right way to think about EVERYTHING.

    But for every action there is a reaction, and my generation in now reacting to this by leaving organized religion behind. We are a generation of children who were made to feel silenced, powerless, sinful, fearful and insecure with only following tradition and submitting to heavy handed male authority as the “right” answer to that feeling,leaving our fate up to unseen forces. But those of us who grow up to eventually interact with the secular world, find out how contradictory all of these things we were taught really were.

    It is this stark and obvious contrast that turns us completely away from what we were raised to believe. To go from hearing as a child “You are a helplessly sinful wretched being who by grace (random chance and unseen entity) have been selected to survive an afterlife of fire and brimstone of which you deserve” to later and finally realizing and hearing “you are a good person, powerful in that your choices and actions directly affect you and others in this life, and you can be confident in exploring goodness in alternatives because there are many, many ways to be good.”….. I mean it’s so simple it’s astounding. Do you want to feel wretched and live a fearful life ever hoping your one of the chosen, or do you want to be the good you feel inside and feel the satisfaction of the positive effect you are empowered to have on your surroundings and others every day?

    If you tell a child they are bad they will believe you….that is until someone comes along to explain to them that they actually ARE good and ARE empowered to be as good as they want to be every day. And it is then that we feel so sorry for the adults and parents who never could see/acknowledge we ARE good, and not by chance or selection, even as the adults refused to prioritize our happiness, goodness, and well being as a child over their obsessive belief in the one right way to do things as taught by their particular sect.

    For many of us, education saves us from this narrow thinking. There is a reason many insular groups look down on higher education or children leaving home to go to school, especially for women. Education has historically been a longtime threat to powerful religious groups. Socrates was sentenced to death after the religious state authorities decided he was corrupting students by teaching the youth theories that did not align with the prevailing religious beliefs and daring to assert that genuine knowledge and professional competence creates proper policy, not majority opinion. But it is also just the interaction with people who are obviously good despite not being in the insulated group or in a religion that shows us goodness is not proprietary to religion. This can be a real eye opener for us – shocking even.

    It is just no wonder when you raise children to believe in a god that knows you are inherently evil to the core and every part of you, including your reasoning ability, is so damaged by original sin, that you cannot do anything good apart from grace, and that even the fiery pits of hell, for which you just might be selected to go to, is for the glory of this same god, and that anything horrible that happens to you is predestined and specifically intended for you, as of course, you deserve no better than that…..well, is it really a stretch then to grow up thinking and believing the arrogant and chosen self appointed leaders and pastors, who watch down over you and your family, “shepherding” your every move, punishing any dissent or criticizing any mistake, are actually a closer representative/reflection of this same god than others?

    I am just one person, but in talking extensively to many others in my generation who grew up similarly, we overwhelmingly reject these notions and beliefs and collectively decide to, as adults, believe in the goodness of people who are doing good things, and expose the depravity of people who are doing bad things. WE CHOOSE…..we are not “chosen”. WE decide what we deserve and do not accept that abuse of any kind is ever justified by anything or predestined to happen. WE decide what doing good looks like because we can see the results. WE are empowered to be accountable for out choices, and expect others to do so as well. And we KNOW horrible things don’t always happen by chance, but are often the doing of someone who could have chosen otherwise, but didn’t. And WE call them out on that choice.

    Parents, I beg you to tell your children they are good, and teach them to be confident in deserving the goodness they display to others. Fear based theology may keep your kids “in line”, as it obviously has the power to keep the adult “sheep” docile as well, but it takes something from them that is essential to their lives as a confident and happy person. Preaching/Spanking/Teaching the reasoning skills and confidence out of them will not make them a better person, and you will either lose them later to one degree or another, and they will just feel sorry for you, or they will repeat the same practices with their own children.

  44. Dee (and Deb):

    Thanks for all you have done with this blog. I can understand why you would quit blogging and would not blame you if you did.

    However, I urge you not to do so.

    Grateful for you,
    Former SG Pastor

  45. Lloyd Legalist tweets are hilarious:

    Lloyd Legalist‏@LloydLegalist19h
    Proud of my son Lloyd Jr who won the KJV Academy Christian Character Award under the category, “Most Likely To Cause A Church Split One Day”

  46. Dee and Deb,
    I understand that this blog has probably consumed your life. But, I want you both to know how much it’s meant to me. I’m not brave enough, yet, to put my story out there like you offered to. Just reading and participating here has been very therapeutic. Spiritual abuse messes with your head. Your articles, and the insightful comments, are helping me to untangle the web. I think my faith has weathered the worst part of our spiritual abuse storm thanks to your love and support. Reading other people’s stories, and praying for other victims has helped me to feel less isolated and alone. I will be forever grateful that TWW was here during this difficult time in my life.

  47. @ exCLCer:

    Wow. Thank you for this. You so clearly and succinctly described the thoughts that have been percolating in the back of my brain for so many years. As I was reading it, I thought, wouldn’t it be nice if my parents could/would read this and recognize themselves here, and maybe understand a little bit why I have left their lives. But they never will, because they are so locked into this fear-based system that they cannot accept me and my choices. And so they have lost a daughter and two grandchildren and to them, it’s just God’s perfect will–they cannot see that they are the cause.

  48. Sharon Autenrieth wrote:

    I’ve been meaning to write about this on my blog & I will certainly be linking here so that more people can read those fabulous title suggestions from Julie’s readers. I’ve got my own to contribute: Alexander and His Terrible, Horrible, No-Good Total Depravity.
    Or maybe “Charlotte’s Web of Pelagianism”
    Or perhaps “Cloudy with a Foreordained Certainty of Meatballs”
    This is too much fun!

    You should add those to Julie Anne’s list!

  49. I think that I might have missed something – was there a big development yesterday?

    Dee and Deb, we are all so grateful for your hard work and commitment to caring for “the least of these.” I agree with Anon1 – a nice break might be just what the doctor ordered!

  50. @ Jeff S:

    whereas Reformed would include the broader theology of the reformers (including covenant theology).

    Not from a Lutheran perspective, nor in many Anglican circles.

    I know that later reformers claim Luther as one of their own, but he was not. He came along prior to Calvin et. al. and the theologies of Lutheran churches are quite different to Calvinism.

  51. @ Patrice: Amen and amen, Patrice!!!

    Deb and Dee, you both deserve a break – now might be as good a time as any. (Hoping the power of suggestion will get to you… 😉 )

  52. @lemonaidfizz

    Thank you. I talk to so many people who, now adults, have these difficult and conflicting feelings about their parents and family members and former pastors and friends…..they love them, but cant understand how they would rather see them miserable than happy, and just feel so sad realizing these people they love so much can be so willingly toxic to their life and that they may never acknowledge their role or understand the dynamic they are participating in. You cant help but to question their love, their integrity, their moral compass, and their motives, and that can be so difficult to deal with. Wayne Dyer once said “Love is the ability and willingness to allow those that you care for to be what they choose for themselves without any insistence that they satisfy you.” That’s how I reconcile those conflicts, but I always know to draw the line where someone is choosing to hurt another.

  53. Boz Tchividjain, G.R.A.C.E. Founder and Professor of Law at Liberty University, will be on the Janet Mefferd Show today at 4:30 ET. Boz will be talking about his concerns for how the sex abuse scandal is being handled by national leaders. There are also some new developments.

    http://janetmefferd.com/

  54. OK, I confess that my urging Dee and Deb to continue is mostly selfish on my part. I have exclusive rights to the moniker “ChuckJo” and WW pays me lavish royalties on it. How lavish, you wonder? The extent of WW’s financial rise and payments to shills like me will only be known through a site called wwwikileaks. That site is sssecret. Don’t lllook for it.

    Seriously, though, I do understand the need to take a break or even exit the fight. My break/exit is now into its 5th year (my only regret – it wasn’t sooner!). I don’t come to blogs as often as I used to. Before I stopped at WW this AM, I stopped by SGM Refuge. I know that Jim closed it a while ago but it appears that now the content/main site is gone. Jim and I spoke on the phone and corresponded over the years and I appreciate how he helped me after I left SGM. The same can be said for Guy and Kris at Survivors. The same is true for Dee and Deb.

    I support Dee and Deb, whatever they decide.

    BTW, have I mentioned lately how glad I am out of SGM?

    I am glad and I am truly,
    Former SG Pastor

  55. Patrice wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Pink actually achieved the theoretical end state of Protestantism — millions of One True Churches, each with only One member, each denouncing all the others as Heretics and Apostates.

    Yet he failed to take that last difficult step of purity discipline, protesting his self.

    For that, I recommend Bob Dylan’s “John Birch Society Blues”:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AylFqdxRMwE

  56. exCLCer wrote:

    I mean it’s so simple it’s astounding. Do you want to feel wretched and live a fearful life ever hoping your one of the chosen, or do you want to be the good you feel inside and feel the satisfaction of the positive effect you are empowered to have on your surroundings and others every day?

    exCLCer, this entire comment rings so true.

  57. FSGP wrote:

    I support Dee and Deb, whatever they decide.
    BTW, have I mentioned lately how glad I am out of SGM?
    I am glad and I am truly,
    Former SG Pastor

    It’s becoming obvious to all except their Fanboys and True BE-LEEEEE-vers that SGM is or has become Corrupt and Abusive.

    Despite Deb & Dee’s “desire to see SGM reform, not be wiped out”, the Corruption may have gone too deep and metastasized too far. (And the Corrupt and Corrupted calling the shots at SGM might well destroy it themselves than see it change — “If I Can’t Have It My Way, Then I’ll Make Sure Nobody Can!”)

  58. DaveinTN wrote:

    exCLCer wrote:

    I mean it’s so simple it’s astounding. Do you want to feel wretched and live a fearful life ever hoping your one of the chosen, or do you want to be the good you feel inside and feel the satisfaction of the positive effect you are empowered to have on your surroundings and others every day?

    exCLCer, this entire comment rings so true.

    Do you want to be just another prole under the boot of a Cosmic Kim Jong-Il or a pony under the wing of a Cosmic Princess Celestia?

  59. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    HUG, what a fine brain you have. I’ve not listened to that song for years:

    “When I run outta things to investigate
    I couldn’t imagine doin’ anything else
    So now I’m at home investigatin’ myself
    Hope, I don’t find out too much, good God!”

  60. Dee: I was just looking at who you are following on Twitter. How come Challies lets you follow him? You are the one who did all the blog posts on him, not me. He has me blocked. No fair.

  61. dee wrote:

    Too funny.

    “Thirdly, Yoona took pleasure in humor: she hummed Papa’s Psalm in absurd variations; in our dormroom, when aides were absent, she mimicked pureblood habits like yawning, sneezing, or burping. Humor is the ovum of dissent, and the Juche should fear it…”

    Spoken by Sonmi~451 in an interview just before her execution.
    from David Mitchell’s Cloud Atlas

  62. FGSP

    Thank you for the laugh. Never fear. we are still here. Yesterday was a difficult day. I heal by emoting. I must be careful, though.

    When one of my daughter’s was little, she overheard me tell my husband that I was moving to China to escape a certain controversy. She came in crying, begging me not to go to China. I told her that mommy was making a very bad joke, that I was sorry she heard it and assured her that I would never move to China or anywhere else without my whole family. She settled down and said she never wanted to move to China but she would like to move to DisneyWorld.

    As for being glad you are out of SGM,  Whoo, Hoo! You go, pastor! 

  63. Julie Anne

     I rarely reply or retweet to anyone who I think might not like me. That’s a lot of people! I learned my lesson with Jared Wilson. It was the first time I had ever hit reply and he reported me as malicious spam. These guys can’t take it.

  64. numo wrote:

    @ Jeff S:
    whereas Reformed would include the broader theology of the reformers (including covenant theology).
    Not from a Lutheran perspective, nor in many Anglican circles.
    I know that later reformers claim Luther as one of their own, but he was not. He came along prior to Calvin et. al. and the theologies of Lutheran churches are quite different to Calvinism.

    True and fair point. All I was meaning to convey is that it is a broader concept than Calvinism.

  65. I’d rather rub elbows with a Calvinist who is a kind and good man than one of any religious stripe who can’t wait for the smoke of my torment as a heretic to ascendeth up forever and ever.

  66. dee (and deb) – I echo the words of those who say that they do not want you to quit, and, on the other hand, do not want want you to burn out. I feel this way even after reading your shocking statement: “we would become fat and that would interfere with our adorableness.” Imagine my pain, when I, who am somewhat on the plump side, and never considered that to interfere with my adorableness, read that! You will be relieved to know that, after a good cry, I felt better. I hope, madame, that you are not a weightist!

  67. JeffB

    A good cry is cathartic and we are not going anywhere. We have been under stress, knowing we are being watched carefully by those who may not appreciate our adorableness! 

    We are not weightests. Also, we are middleaged women who should not be eating breakfast, brunch, lunch, high tea and dinner since our metabolism is on the slow side. However, I live with my husband who is a perfect weight and exercises diligently. In spite of this, he developed diabetes last year. So, we are trying to maintain a low carb diet and he encourages me to exercise. Since all of the Curves closed in my area, I am using the elliptical everyday. 

    We are going nowhere fast!

  68. Still waiting for the JD Hall of the “liberal atheist Methodist Episcopalian American Baptist” crowd to show himself (or her-self, since those denominations aren’t wedded to complementarianism).

    Also waiting for the equivalent of Pyromaniacs on the “liberal atheist Methodist Episcopalian American Baptist” side.

  69. @ dee:

    Just in case you have any doubt that everything in my comment was intended to be humorous – it was.

    Glad to hear that both of you are not going anywhere.

  70. I think the covers of Hall’s book are too juvenile for juveniles. Also, I don’t think it’s appropriate to teach TULIP, though I agree with it, to young children, especially in that us-against-them manner. They should be more grounded in Scripture first, so that they can evaluate it own their own.

    Though he could have articulated it in a less brusque manner, I agree with Hall that there is a pronounced anti-intellectualism in the church today. I am not saying that to become a Christian you have to be a scholar – just that there is nothing wrong with words like “monergism” if they correspond to biblical concepts, let alone words that are in most English Bible translations, like “propitiation.”

    Since there is much talk about Calvin and Calvinism (parts of which I disagree with) on this blog, I thought it would be good to hear from the man himself. It’s something that I typed earlier today in a comment on Julie Anne’s blog:

    “Christian freedom, in my opinion, consists of three parts. The first: that the consciences of believers, in seeking assurance of their justification before God, should rise above and advance beyond the law, forgetting all law righteousness. For since, as we have elsewhere shown, the law leaves no one righteous, either it excludes us from all hope of justification or we ought to be freed from it, and in such a way, indeed, that no account is taken of works. For he who thinks that in order to obtain righteousness he ought to bring some trifle of works is incapable of determining their measure and limit but makes himself debtor to the whole law. Removing, then, mention of law, and laying aside all consideration of works, we should, when justification is being discussed, embrace God’s mercy alone, turn our attention from ourselves, and look only to Christ.” (Institutes, 3.19.2)

  71. @ Jeff S: I guess I would differentiate between “Reformation” and “Reformed.”

    My understanding of those words is (maybe) somewhat different from yours, I’m thinking – especially “Reformed,” which I’ve always understood as referring to Calvinism and related doctrine (and the churches and groups of people that have historically been aligned with Calvinism/Calvinist-derived thought, doctrine and practice).

    I know it might seem that I’m protesting too much, but the Reformation really started with Hus – and with the so-called Lollards in England – but did not really gain traction until Luther came along.

  72. Patrice wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    HUG, what a fine brain you have. I’ve not listened to that song for years:
    “When I run outta things to investigate
    I couldn’t imagine doin’ anything else
    So now I’m at home investigatin’ myself
    Hope, I don’t find out too much, good God!”

    First, that “fine brain” comes from being a natural-talent speedreader who by the time he was ten, had read more than most adults do in a lifetime — with no clue how to fit all that raw data together.

    “When you’re six years old, most of your bingo-balls are still floating around in the draw-tank.” — Steven King

    The end result is this MASSIVE mental database with no search engine. Any reference triggers an uncontrollable random cascade of associated data. Like your comment about “the final stage of purity” bringing up an associated Bob Dylan song.

    Second, notice how Bob Dylan describes the creeping growth of Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory over the duration of the song, as he finds more and more is REALLY The World Communist Conspiracy(TM) — “Did you know there’s RED stripes in the American Flag?”

    Finally his Dwarfs are for The Dwarfs — he’s proven in his own mind that EVERYONE else in the entire world is Part Of The Conspiracy, and has nothing else to investigate but himself. The final exclamation is his discovery that HE has to be Part Of The Conspiracy — the growing Conspiracy Theory has finally consumed him as well.

  73. @ dee:

    “We have been under stress, knowing we are being watched carefully by those who may not appreciate our adorableness!”

    Hi, Dee & Deb.

    Thank you both for putting up with it all. These “those” you mention… blue meanies to be sure. Of legitimate consequence?

  74. I could not resist the urge to come out of lurking to shout a hearty “Amen!” to Nick’s post of 6:13AM. That’s wisdom right there, plain and simple.

  75. I’m personally of the opinion that Jesus would be shaking his head over this theologizing. If I were to explain this to my mom, she’d probably say something like, “well, the Calvinists sound like they want to have the last word, no matter what it makes them look like.”

    In any case, I wish, I wish…I wish someone would go through Calvin’s Institutes and pull out the most obnoxious stuff and the publish it as “The Little Red Book of Chairman Cal.” You know, on Kindle, like this guy did.

  76. elastigirl wrote:

    @ It’s just the beginning:

    in the beginning,

    Why have you chosen to attend CLC?

    I have been at CLC for a number of years (just not 15 or 25 like the “old-timers”)…I’ve been here basically since Josh Harris took over (I didn’t join because of him or anything like that).

  77. Anon 1 wrote:

    @ anonymous:
    Probably. Cannot remember. I know I read that one. McArthur thinks he is so authoritative. Wears me out.
    If anyone has seen Cheryl Schatz’ DVD Series, Women in Ministry, she pulls out some McArthur audio teaching on women that is so very ignorant I could not believe it. I cannot understand why he is so believed and not questioned by more young men.

    I don’t know why either, Anon 1. I never did understand the MacArthur draw.

  78. @ It’s just the beginning:

    It’s just the beginning,

    you have a long name. thanks for replying. You must enjoy this church, feel good about it, appreciate it. Can you tell me what about it makes this so?

    Can you also comment on how the current “alleged” situation impacts your experience of the church, your feelings and convictions about it, and your choice to continue on?

    If too probing, no need to answer.

  79. I just posted a link to the new interview about the SGM lawsuit that was on the Mefferd show today, but it’s sitting in moderation.

  80. Wow. The second post went into moderation too. Test post. Test 1, 2, 3, 4.

    [[MOD: We turn it up and down for various reasons. No need to point it out. I get an email for EVERY moderated comment.]]

  81. elastigirl wrote:

    @ It’s just the beginning:

    It’s just the beginning,

    you have a long name. thanks for replying. You must enjoy this church, feel good about it, appreciate it. Can you tell me what about it makes this so?

    Can you also comment on how the current “alleged” situation impacts your experience of the church, your feelings and convictions about it, and your choice to continue on?

    If too probing, no need to answer.

    If my life situation was different, I might have left CLC by now.

    I actually think our CLC pastors have done a decent job over the last 2 years. Josh Harris certainly realize the tangled ball of mess he inherited from CJ–and I’m not just talking about the sexual abuse scandal.

    I think Josh has walked through many realizations about CJ/SGM the last 2-3 years, and I think Josh has led with humility and the heart to change from old/bad ways. He hasn’t been perfect, and many people at times felt he should have made decisions more quickly. But overall, I think he’s led CLC well the last two years.

    That being said, the realization about the latest developments (which weren’t really new)–but if the latest realizations that if in 2008 and 2010 our pastors (CLC) received a concerned report about a father possibly abusing his children .. and if they did nothing (i.e. not contact the police), that could easily be the last straw for me and many others I would guess.

  82. Sergius Martin-George wrote:

    “A Modern Day Downgrade: A Call for Repentance to Southern Baptists and to Other Evangelicals,” which you can watch on YouTube HERE

    I heard that presentation online a few days ago (didn’t watch the You Tube, I only heard the audio of it). He sounded very passionate about it. It almost sounded like he was crying at points, or was close to it.

    This is the same guy whose quotes are at the top of this page?- such as, “I’m sorry, are lady pastors Biblical? Or is that not a Christian “essential”

    He sounds very condescending and obnoxious in those quotes, or whomever that is.

  83. Robin wrote:

    Can you explain why Chris Rosebrough is there? He is a Lutheran??!

    I would assume that one reason Rosebrough is buddies with some of these guys, or approving of their views, is that they (Neo Calvinists) are taking a hard line against watered-down, circus-freak evangelicalism, and Rosebrough definitely dislikes watered-down sermons and circus-freak church antics, which are common in seeker-friendly churches. That’s just my guess.
    —-
    Janet Mefferd Show-6/6/2013 Hour 3- G.R.A.C.E. Founder Boz Tchividjian discusses the Sovereign Grace Ministries lawsuit.

  84. This is a really tricky topic. I will admit up front that I have some emotional baggage about Calvinism, due to my introduction to the predestination theology happening at a time when I felt very far away from God (I’m sure you can guess where that led…a long time of questioning whether God had “chosen” NOT to save me, and let me tell you, there is nothing on this earth worse than that. That is a LIVING nightmare).

    We have to be awfully careful in assuming that we can just teach kids anything and they’ll be fine with it. My introduction to Calvinism led to an intense crisis of faith, and I ultimately had to reject Calvinism flat-out to get any relief from the constant fear.

    At the same time, though, I can see if a child had accepted Christ and been raised with the idea of predestination, that might be a very comforting thought–the belief that they are now set, no matter what 🙂

    What I”m trying to say here is that no two kids are the same, and I’m not sure parents and pastors should make glib assumptions that you just teach kids the “right” thing and everything turns out peachy. It’s way more complex than that.

  85. Anon 1 wrote:

    If anyone has seen Cheryl Schatz’ DVD Series, Women in Ministry, she pulls out some McArthur audio teaching on women that is so very ignorant I could not believe it. I cannot understand why he is so believed and not questioned by more young men.

    Schatz has done a remarkable job, much like Bushnell did long before her in refuting the proposition that the Bible teaches patriarchy for all time and all spaces of the Christian milieu.

    I think the young bucks follow it (patriarchy) without question because MacArthur, Grudem, Burk, and many others are so adept at wielding the Bible as an authority cudgel. In addition, young men are so full of piss and vinegar that they do not have the experience of a fine pinot noir needed to be able to say no to the strong chieftains. I know, I was a young man long ago.

  86. Muff Potter wrote:

    In addition, young men are so full of piss and vinegar that they do not have the experience of a fine pinot noir needed to be able to say no to the strong chieftains. I know, I was a young man long ago.

    Wow, for a self-avowed heretic, you have been given quite a bit of divine discernment. Makes me want to question that heretic label…:)

  87. Daisy, thanks for responding! This has vexed me all day. I have found solice in many Lurheran sermons because being around Calvinism almost destroyed my soul. I’m struggling because if Lutherans pull this bait and switch on me like the Calvinist then where can I go in Christendom other than Christ? O wait… That is exactly where I Should go and not follow men… Hmm….

  88. Daisy wrote:

    I don’t understand what is going on.

    For security reasons we do not in most cases discuss why some/all comments are moderated. And we adjust the moderation rules sometimes every few hours. If you are moderated we’ll be told about it and take care of it. No need to start posting test comments.

    As I said, I get an email (on my phone) for every moderated comment. If they are not a problem, and I’m not tied up they will be approved as soon as is reasonable.

  89. @ Dee:

    Muff Potter wrote:

    “In addition, young men are so full of piss and vinegar that they do not have the experience of a fine pinot noir needed to be able to say no to the strong chieftains. I know, I was a young man long ago.”

    Dee wrote: “Wow, for a self-avowed heretic, you have been given quite a bit of divine discernment. Makes me want to question that heretic label…:)”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    heretic schmeretic. I really don’t think God is fussy (the way certain rigid christian groups make him out to be).

    And he’s not all that OTHER, either. We’re all cut from the same cloth. I think He’s as familiar as the smell of that yummy comfort food casserole my mom made when I was 3 years old, the smell of my favorite early childhood blanket, the taste of oreos in hot tea with my grandparents on Sunday nights, the theme song to That Girl, The Brady Bunch, and My Three Sons (or everyone’s equivalent of these things)– these things are imprinted in my memory and I know them more deeply than I do 2+2=4 and the sky is blue.

    He’s this deeply familiar to everyone, even if they can’t identify him.

  90. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    The end result is this MASSIVE mental database with no search engine.

    Ok but since I have brain damage from long trauma and that includes poor memory (willy nilly with huge blanks and things don’t stick very well), I will remain jealous, if you don’t mind. 🙂

    The more material one has, the longer it takes to put stuff together. I hope you’ll be patient with yourself. My daughter has a lesser but related difficulty—she is capable/interested in both math/earthscience and in the arts. She’s been frustrated deciding what to do with herself and gets depressed because she doesn’t have it together like others her age. But it simply takes longer when there’s more material to work with.

    Meanwhile, I enjoy the “colorful” corollary you make between John Birch Blues and Pink (not the singer).

  91. Daisy wrote:

    others

    Agreed, and I’ve been guilty myself.

    But for example, the idea of Covenant Theology is definitely Reformed but is not related to being a Calvinist. My previous church (where I had issues) was Calvinist but definitely did not agree with Covenant Theology. This is only one example ― there is much Reformed doctrine that does not directly relate to being Calvinist.

  92. numo wrote:

    @ Jeff S: oh, absolutely!

    My apologies for misinterpreting what you said, Jeff.

    Don’t apologize. What I said was wrong, not your interpretation. :). I just did not say what I meant. Such is the effect of posting from a phone in the middle of a road trip on which I was very tired!

  93. numo wrote:

    @ Jeff S: I guess I would differentiate between “Reformation” and “Reformed.”

    My understanding of those words is (maybe) somewhat different from yours, I’m thinking – especially “Reformed,” which I’ve always understood as referring to Calvinism and related doctrine (and the churches and groups of people that have historically been aligned with Calvinism/Calvinist-derived thought, doctrine and practice).

    I know it might seem that I’m protesting too much, but the Reformation really started with Hus – and with the so-called Lollards in England – but did not really gain traction until Luther came along.

    Yes, Reformed an Calvinism are definitely related and the association is right. My point was just that its not a new cool term, even if it’s sometimes used that way.

    If you read though the WCF you will see there is a lot of TULIP in there, but there is also a lot of doctrine that has nothing to do with predestination.

    And as I mentioned earlier, I think the PC(USA) still counts as reformed (though maybe those in the PCA would cringe) and they certainly are not complementarian. It is possible to be a Calvinist and Reformed and be a complementarian

  94. Accidentally hit post too early. I meant to be Reformed an NOT be a complementarian. I’ll have to ask, but I think my sister had to study the WCF before becoming an elder in the PC(USA).

  95. JeffB wrote:

    Though he could have articulated it in a less brusque manner, I agree with Hall that there is a pronounced anti-intellectualism in the church today.

    I know what you mean, Jeff, but it depends where you look in the Church. In other parts of the church there’s still a pronounced anti-emotionalism. And those aren’t the only two, of course. Since a little inaccuracy can save a ton of explanation, please excuse my using some very broad stereotypes here.

    If I’m not of a particularly emotional bent, I’ll tend to regard congregations with very expressive singing etc as being “frothy”, “superficial” and “emotionalistic”. More precisely, I’ll assume that they’re just working themselves up into a state of emotional arousal as an end in itself, and that they’re not really worshipping God at all but confusing the artificial feelings of pleasure with “enjoying God’s Presence”. But putting the boot on the other foot, if I’m not of a particularly analytical bent, then I’ll tend to regard theology as “empty”, “sterile” and “dead orthodoxy”. More precisely, I’ll assume that they’re just playing around with abstract concepts (or “conceptualisations” as they became known in academia over here!) and inventing meaningless jargon terms for them. They too are “not really seeking God” but are confusing their intellectual self-satisfaction with “appreciating God’s Truth”.

    Either, neither or both of those assumptions might be technically accurate (if presumptuously judgemental on my part). And this is the great weakness of the written – or even preached – word, because we see/hear the verbal output of people whom we don’t know. There’s a very subtle line between selfishly pleasuring a part of one’s soul at God’s expense, and truly using that part of one’s soul to experience Him as fully as one can.

  96. I think the study of theology, including learning and using “big words” is a good thing. A lot of the “big words” have precise and important meanings and to ignore them is to lose a lot of ideas in scripture that I believe God wants us to have. But to focus on ideas to the exclusion of love is worse than ignoring the ideas, as Paul is pretty clear about in 1 Cor 13.

    We can be loving and still find words like ‘Propitiation’ useful, so there’s no reason to exclude one or the other.

  97. @ sad observer: I had a near identical experience which I discussed with Julie Anne on Twitter yesterday. In my case, I spiralled into a depression which left men near-suicidal. I largely had to reject Calvinism to maintain my mental health.

    Mind you, pretty sure some of my theological positions would still annoy some people, but I see it as a process… I don’t have ALL of my theology correct, so I try an be graceful towards others too 🙂

  98. Warwick

    I am so sorry for the pain that you underwent. Another reader told us of his daughter who was in a similar situation, becoming quite depressed after listening to John Piper. he was able to get her help from anothet theologian from another point of view.

  99. sad observer wrote:

    At the same time, though, I can see if a child had accepted Christ and been raised with the idea of predestination, that might be a very comforting thought–the belief that they are now set, no matter what

    That is, assuming that they are one of the elect. If I understand it all correctly, parents have to be prepared that their children could be one of the unregenerate.

    A man who had adopted 5 seriously handicapped children visited our site a year ago. He told us that he has no idea if his children are chosen or not and he was prepared for the possibility that they would not be in heaven. I told him that i believed that God saved those who were unable to comprehend who He is due to a handicap. He disagreed. It was one of the sadder conversations i have ever had on this blog.

  100. elastigirl wrote:

    I think He’s as familiar as the smell of that yummy comfort food casserole my mom made when I was 3 years old, the smell of my favorite early childhood blanket, the taste of oreos in hot tea with my grandparents on Sunday nights, the theme song to That Girl, The Brady Bunch, and My Three Sons (or everyone’s equivalent of these things)– these things are imprinted in my memory and I know them more deeply than I do 2+2=4 and the sky is blue.

    So, you are trying to make me get all blubbery here this morning? Beautiful! I needed that.

  101. Jeff S wrote:

    It is possible to be a Calvinist and Reformed and be a complementarian

    Thank you for saying this. I think a lot of people do not understand this. The Neo-Calcinists have so dominated the scene that most people now associate Calvinism with them.

  102. Warwick wrote:

    I had a near identical experience which I discussed with Julie Anne on Twitter yesterday. In my case, I spiralled into a depression which left men near-suicidal. I largely had to reject Calvinism to maintain my mental health.

    Warwick — I saw your Twitter conversation with Julie Anne. Glad to hear your story. When a theology becomes out of line with Jesus’ priorities, it’s going the wrong way. Keep the baby; throw out the bath water.

  103. Jeff S wrote:

    there is much Reformed doctrine that does not directly relate to being Calvinist.

    There is a lot of doctrine within all sides of the argument that are not specific for one side or the other. We all believe in preaching to the lost and caring for the poor.

  104. dee wrote:

    The Neo-Calcinists

    “Calcinists”… interesting… freudian slip?

    Does this refer to calcinosis, a disabling affliction, or calcination, a process of thermal decomposition commonly used in the manufacture of building materials such as cement?

    (Obviously, if the wee typo in question is corrected, this post will make no sense at all… but it’s interesting!)

  105. elastigirl wrote:

    He’s as familiar as the smell of that yummy comfort food casserole my mom made when I was 3 years old, the smell of my favorite early childhood blanket, the taste of oreos in hot tea with my grandparents on Sunday nights, the theme song to That Girl, The Brady Bunch, and My Three Sons (or everyone’s equivalent of these things)– these things are imprinted in my memory and I know them more deeply than I do 2+2=4 and the sky is blue.

    🙂

  106. dee wrote:

    Jeff S wrote:

    there is much Reformed doctrine that does not directly relate to being Calvinist.

    There is a lot of doctrine within all sides of the argument that are not specific for one side or the other. We all believe in preaching to the lost and caring for the poor.

    I agree. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise 🙂

  107. Warwick wrote:

    @ sad observer: I had a near identical experience which I discussed with Julie Anne on Twitter yesterday. In my case, I spiralled into a depression which left men near-suicidal. I largely had to reject Calvinism to maintain my mental health.
    Mind you, pretty sure some of my theological positions would still annoy some people, but I see it as a process… I don’t have ALL of my theology correct, so I try an be graceful towards others too

    The very sad thing is that many times those who hold to that teaching are not gracious and become like bullies in their approach. That approach may mimic abuse we’ve had earlier in our life and it also paints God out to be a mean and angry God who only allows those into heaven he elects (and casts into hell the rest). That’s a tough pill to swallow.

  108. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Does this refer to calcinosis, a disabling affliction, or calcination, a process of thermal decomposition commonly used in the manufacture of building materials such as cement?

    Thank you for making me laugh. My brain gets out in front of my typing.

  109. Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    I’m personally of the opinion that Jesus would be shaking his head over this theologizing. If I were to explain this to my mom, she’d probably say something like, “well, the Calvinists sound like they want to have the last word, no matter what it makes them look like.”

    The thread about “MOM! THERE ARE ARMINIANS UNDER MY BED!” at Spiritual Sounding Board is now the longest thread in that blog’s history — over 500 and counting. A lot of the recent count is one or two Hyper-Calvinists (i.e. More Calvinist than Calvin ever was) parsing Theology letter-by-letter over and over in a Celebrity Deathmatch: Calvin and TULIP vs All Comers. You normally see that sort of Celebrity Deathmatch only with Homosexuality and Evolution. P.S. Pastors’ widows still have to eat out of dumpsters.

  110. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    “Calcinists”… interesting… freudian slip?
    Does this refer to calcinosis, a disabling affliction, or calcination, a process of thermal decomposition commonly used in the manufacture of building materials such as cement?

    Neither. CALVINOSIS, another disabling affliction.

  111. sad observer wrote:

    At the same time, though, I can see if a child had accepted Christ and been raised with the idea of predestination, that might be a very comforting thought–the belief that they are now set, no matter what 🙂

    My writing partner has reported recent run-ins with Hyper-Calvinists. He says their “belief that they are now set, no matter what” has hardened into Invincible Arrogance. Me Sheep, You Goat, Haw Haw Haw.

    Amazing the attitude that can set in once you apply Entropy to a Personal Get-Out-of-Hell-Free Card and let it ferment a while.

  112. Jeff S wrote:

    We can be loving and still find words like ‘Propitiation’ useful, so there’s no reason to exclude one or the other.

    This verse puts the 2 together nicely: “in this is the love, not that we loved God, but that He did love us, and did send His Son a propitiation for our sins.” I Jn 4:10
    And although love isn’t mentioned in this problematic verse, it is spoken of extensively later in the chapter. “and he — he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world” I Jn 2:2
    On the other hand (IMO) we have this Edwardian vision of our future heavenly bliss:
    “Positively : the sufferings of the damned will be no occasion of grief to the heavenly inhabitants , as they will have no love nor pity to the damned as such . It will be no argument of want of a spirit of love in them , that they do not love the damned ; for the heavenly inhabitants will know that it is not fit that they should love them , because they will know then , that God has no love to them , nor pity for them ; but that they are the objects of God’s eternal hatred .
    And… The saints in glory will know , concerning the damned in hell , that God never loved them , but that he hates them and will be forever hated of God .
    And…When the saints in glory , therefore , shall see the doleful state of the damned , how will this highten their sense of the blessedness of their own state , so exceedingly different from it ! When they shall see how miserable others of their fellow creatures are , who were naturally in the same circumstances with themselves ; when they shall see the smoke of their torment , and the raging of the flames of their burning , and hear their dolorous shrieks and cries , and consider that they in the mean time are in the most blissful state , and shall surely be in it to all eternity ; how will they rejoice !”
    From “The End of the Wicked Contemplated by the Righteous ; or The Torments of the Wicked in Hell , No Occasion of Grief to the Saints in Heaven” Jonathan Edwards

    I’m working on a cute children’s book sequel to “Arminians under the Bed” and “Arminians are giving me Nightmares”
    I’ll call it  “Baggins! Damned thief! We hates it FOREVER!!”

  113. Dave A A wrote:

    On the other hand (IMO) we have this Edwardian vision of our future heavenly bliss…

    Which I have heard called “The Abominable Fancy”. I do not know the origin or provenance of that term, except that it is used as a label for the idea/meme of the Suffering of the Damned in Hell being a spectator sport in Heaven.

  114. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    My writing partner has reported recent run-ins with Hyper-Calvinists. He says their “belief that they are now set, no matter what” has hardened into Invincible Arrogance. Me Sheep, You Goat, Haw Haw Haw.

    I don’t understand it at all. I’m sorry to keep repeating myself, but when I inquired about Calvinism from Calvinists years ago (when considering becoming one), most of them I contacted were not clear on who gets saved (who the elect is).

    I also lurked at their forums and read their views on this stuff.

    I don’t know how Calvinists can go on and on about Eternal Security, when most cannot even agree on who exactly gets saved (I mean specific people not the vague “elect” term) and how does one know.

    A lot of them were self assured that they and theirs were the elect, I remember a few Calvinists admitted they didn’t know if they (or their family) were the elect, a few assumed I must be since I showed an interest in salvation (the reasoning is that a hell bound unsaved person would show no interest at all).

    There really is no assurance of salvation in Calvinist theology.

    You also have to “persevere” in the faith if you hope to be saved – you, not Christ, perseveres. I don’t see how that is much different from “conditional security,” which says after Christ initially saves you, you have to work at being good to “keep” that salvation (it can be lost, according to them).

    I was raised to believe (and based on my own understanding of the Bible) that God does all the work of salvation, but you are still responsible for accepting Christ’s work at the cross.

    You have to make a choice for Christ (you making a choice does not mean you deserve any sort of “credit” for your salvation, as is often misrepresented and mocked by some Calvinists and even self professing Reformed I’ve heard on the internet), and once you do make that choice, Christ keeps you saved (you will not, or cannot, forfeit your salvation – your salvation does not depend on you maintaining it, on being good).

  115. elastigirl wrote:

    heretic schmeretic. I really don’t think God is fussy (the way certain rigid christian groups make him out to be).

    Mayhap you and Dee are right, the word ‘heretic’ does tend to conjure up too many negative connotations. In another vein if I said that Mozart’s Eine Kleine Nacht Musik makes me feel ‘gay’, it’s probably best to hunt up another descriptive for that one too. My unconventional views regarding sin and justification remain the same however, and they are indeed considered heresy in both Catholic & Protestant quarters. If I must have a label then, let it be ‘dissident’.

  116. Dave A A wrote:

    From “The End of the Wicked Contemplated by the Righteous ; or The Torments of the Wicked in Hell , No Occasion of Grief to the Saints in Heaven” Jonathan Edwards

    This is just sick! These vile words of Jonathan Edwards show he had little or no understanding of God’s love for us in Christ Jesus.:-(

  117. rubytuesday wrote:

    This is just sick! These vile words of Jonathan Edwards show he had little or no understanding of God’s love for us in Christ Jesus.:-(

    There is a lot of speculation that Jonathan Edwards was either bipolar or subject to fits of deep depression. (Many prominent men in history WERE bipolar; the manic phase energized them to do great things.) It’s entirely possible that these sermons were penned in the middle of depression and despair, mistaken for Godly conviction. (Some of his preaching actually led to suicides among his congregation.)

  118. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    It’s entirely possible that these sermons were penned in the middle of depression and despair, mistaken for Godly conviction.

    I can only wonder how much damage has been done because people like John Piper have responded to the words of Jonathan Edwards as though they were inspired by God.

  119. @ rubytuesday:
    An otherwise nice pastor started including more and longer Edwards quotes about hellfire in his sermons. It sapped my spirit and was one of the reasons I moved on.

  120. @ Patrice:

    Hi Patrice,

    I relate to your daughter’s dilemma! Perhaps she could be comforted to know that she’s not alone in feeling the way she does.

    Throughout my schooling and university studies, I excelled, getting top grades in all my subjects, from sciences/maths to the arts and humanities. I’m sharing this to give some context. My mom raised me to know that my excellent brain wasn’t something I earned, and that my academic achievements have nothing to do with my character and worth. But practically speaking, my aptitude in just about everything I tried left me with a wide range of choices, and this, combined with my natural tendency to second-guess myself, led me to experience considerable angst at various points in my studies.

    This process has taught me a few things. I’ve learnt that it’s a normal human tendency to question your choices. It’s normal to think others have it together (when in reality, we’re all just trying our best).

    I’ve learnt that most choices worth making involve saying “no” to other equally valid choices. And that’s what makes this so difficult.

    My advice to your daughter (if I’m qualified, in my mid-twenties, to be dispensing advice) would be—-study what you’re most interested in, keep up your interests in different areas, and see where that decision leads you. Understand that your struggle about this is a result of you being a thoughtful person. It’s something that you can learn to manage, to make part of yourself…to use the fact that you’re mindful enough to even grapple with this in the first place as a chance to build your character.

    The whole of life involves grieving the deaths of little hopes and possibilities, but at the same time it gives us the chance to experience the “life” of other choices.

  121. LG wrote:

    The whole of life involves grieving the deaths of little hopes and possibilities, but at the same time it gives us the chance to experience the “life” of other choices.

    LG — Good advice.

  122. rubytuesday wrote:

    I can only wonder how much damage has been done because people like John Piper have responded to the words of Jonathan Edwards as though they were inspired by God.

    Kicker is, Jonathan Edwards was one of the most intelligent, educated, and prolific writers of his time. He penned scientific catalogs of flora and fauna of North America (concentrating on insects and/or arachnids), either founded or was instrumental in founding a major university, and supported higher education.

    Yet all he’s known for today is his Hellfire-and-Damnation sermons.

  123. Daisy wrote:

    I don’t know how Calvinists can go on and on about Eternal Security, when most cannot even agree on who exactly gets saved (I mean specific people not the vague “elect” term) and how does one know.

    A lot of them were self assured that they and theirs were the elect, I remember a few Calvinists admitted they didn’t know if they (or their family) were the elect, a few assumed I must be since I showed an interest in salvation (the reasoning is that a hell bound unsaved person would show no interest at all).

    There really is no assurance of salvation in Calvinist theology.

    That may be Calvinist theology, but this is Hyper-Calvinist theology.
    Pol Pot to Calvin’s Marx.

    Come to think of it, Calvin started out as a LAWYER, didn’t he? Well, Law is full of dispassionate abstractions and precise definitions without any ambiguity. Calvin may have just applied his lawyers’ mind to theology, coming up with a system of complete dispassion and exact definitions and called it Theology. Do Calvin’s actual theological works read like a legal deposition?

  124. @ LG:
    I’ll relay to my daughter what you wrote. She finds it easier to take info from others than her mother so thanks very much!

  125. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Yes, Jonathan Edwards had huge gifts. Even those “sinners in the hands of an angry God” sermons were masterpieces of the form (which is why they still appear in lit books).

    It is not surprising that he had depression, since he believed that God was so angry. It *is* surprising that he remained so beautifully curious and passionate in spite of it.