Update 11:11 AM Surprise! T4G removes statement. Stay tuned. We will post, within the hour, the despicable comment in TGC's post. Prepare to be enraged.
Both T4G here and The Gospel Coaltion here have come out with their utterly predictable responses, choosing to support CJ Mahaney over the alleged victims. From what we can tell, none of them have ever attempted to contact any of the victims, which demonstrates once and for all, that this is theological personality cult. T4G is currently allowing comments. However, TGC, in an epic fail in the "Christianity has a masculine feel" department, will not allow comments.
TWW is offering this place for people to comment on these statements. So go at it. We will be writing a longer post on this later today.
(ed.)
Update: We need our readers' help. TGC said the following: Update 11:12 AM: Tune in shortly for an update about this horrendous statement. This is a serious misstep on the part of these men.
One of the so-called discernment blogs—often trafficking more in speculation and gossip than edifying discernment—reprinted a comment from a woman who issued this ominous wish, "I hope [this lawsuit] ruins the entire organization [of SGM] and every single perpetrator and co-conspirator financially, mentally and physically."
Since we think they may be referring to us, can anyone remember such a comment? We would never condone physical threats to anyone. Is it possible we overlooked a comment which should have been deleted or does anyone recall this comment being written or reprinted on another blog?
Here is one of the statements from their manifesto.
“Instead, he was charged with founding a ministry and for teaching doctrines and principles that are held to be true by vast millions of American evangelicals”
What a pile of codswallop and they know it.
dee wrote:
As if that is enough reason for them to completely write off the disgusting things done to children. Good night!
A friend tweeted that TGC and T4G are a case of “noble cause corruption“. From one description:
Noble cause corruption is a police crime in which police officers violate legal or ethical standards in pursuit of what they perceive to be the benefit of society at large.
“One of the so-called discernment blogs—often trafficking more in speculation and gossip than edifying discernment—reprinted a comment from a woman who issued this ominous wish, “I hope [this lawsuit] ruins the entire organization [of SGM] and every single perpetrator and co-conspirator financially, mentally and physically.”” (from TGC article).
Why don’t you (Don Carson, Kevin DeYoung, and Justin Taylor) come out and say which so-called discernment blog it is that trafficks in gossip? That way we can (gasp) THINK FOR OURSELVES and determine FOR OURSELVES if what you say is true, instead of relying on the “Man of God” to tell us what truth is?
[After reading that article, I my clinical low blood pressure is now normal!]
The TG4 Facebook comments are amazing. Gives some hope that the majority is on the side of the victims. PTL!
dee wrote:
That is the part that made me realize they have a PR/spin strategy. And it is so obvious that only their true cult of personality followers won’t see it. They are making this entire scandalabra concerning PDI/SGM as follows:
attacking Mahaney=attacking Calvinism.
It is a deflection tactic. And it will work. All I can say is don’t fall for it, folks. Keep focus on victims and the fact they were further victimized by Mahaney’s shepherding cult polity at PDI/SGM. This is about how HE handled the rape of little children on his watch within the Empire he built and rules over.
Nevermind the children. All the other words are empty. They are not to be believed. We watch actions. Not empty words.
I now consider all their peers and followers who do not have the guts to speak up, not credible.
BTW: Mohler would never make a statement like this unless he knew his position in the SBC is secure. Tells you a lot about the leadership of the SBC. Stop feeding the beast. If you give them money you are enabling this stuff. For the love of God and children. Stop feeding this with your money.
Bill Kinnon wrote:
Stalin is the father of noble cause corruption.
This comment I copied and pasted before it was deleted because it was so good:
“Why is no mention made that the heart of this lawsuit is about a systematic church effort to discourage and eventually prevent the families of children who were allegedly (and repeatedly) sexually victimized by church officials from speaking out and reporting to law enforcement. This lawsuit is less about the abuse and more about an institution that took steps to protect itself and it’s reputation over the victimized souls (and bodies) of little ones. Omitting such a fundamental fact from this statement is a fundamental error.
Why no mention that CJ Mahaney was actually the Senior Pastor at one of these churches where all of this horrific abuse allegedly occurred AND that discouraged these families from bringing this matter to the God ordained civil authorities? Omitting such a fundamentally important fact from this statement is a fundamental error.
This lawsuit was dismissed for one reason and one reason only…expiration of the statute of limitation. Isn’t it tragic that the reason why this suit was dismissed – taking too long to file – was the very objective of these church leaders when they discouraged these precious souls from stepping forward.
Many of these men have not hesitated to write (or tweet) on the Penn State horrors, gays in the Boy Scouts, and Universal healthcare, but have been conspicuously quiet on this issue…just doesn’t sit right with me (and apparently a lot of others). And when they finally speak, what is omitted speaks more than what is said.
What these men don’t realize is that their silence is pushing a large group of precious souls farther and farther from the Church…and our glorious and gracious God. [sigh]
Boz Tchividjian, J.D.
Executive Director, GRACE”
Wow. The claim that no allegations were made against CJ Mahaney is false. He was accused of being aware of instances of abuse in his church and directly conspiring to cover it up, and even accepting a bribe in exchange for the secrecy. If the lawsuit has completely blown over and CJ Mahaney is really so innocent and 100% exempt of these allegations then maybe he should say so himself.
Aha! Sorry ’bout that. I commented on the wrong page! lol
T4G seems to have removed the post.
Juniper wrote:
What a bunch of cowards. So much for their manly man gospel.
The T4G page and comments are gone. Two Evernote captures with some of the comments, here and here.
Yep, T4G post gone. Poof.
https://www.facebook.com/TogetherfortheGospel/posts/10151372507262115
so, what happened to the facebook link? Comments from the peasants getting out of hand? I was wondering how long they would allow dissent like that they were not controlling. I was surprised it was as long as it was. I hope someone somewhere got a screen shot of the comments.
This is so typical. They always have to control the communication and it is always one way.
Bill, Thank you!!
Hey everyone. I’m new around here but have been following the coverage of the SGM lawsuit on this blog. As soon as I saw the T4G “statement” last night I took a screen shot of it b/c it was so bad I figured they would remove it. It lasted all of 11 hours.
Dee/Deb,
That comment seems to come from an SGM Survivor’s Story:
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2013/02/04/anons-story/
dee wrote:
The thing is: I don’t think they do know it. These boys seem to genuinely believe that the “correctness” of the doctrines and principles that they espouse should trump ALL. But what’s interesting is that they seem to be allowing their own experiences with CJ — a friendship “full of laughter and sober reflection, encouragement and mutual correction” — to trump even that.
Boy, this is ugly.
@ Juniper:
Maybe they weren’t getting the lovefest they were expecting?!?!? Their post is basically misinformation about CJ and the allegations to make CJ look good. This entire issue is revolting to me on many levels.
It is disturbing to watch TGC and T4G proceed like this. I even wonder where they get their information from. If it’s from CJ and his men in Louisville, then who knows what’s being conveyed. But they seem to believe everything CJ says and portrays to them, even though the people who were around him the most (CLC) and the churches in that vicinity want nothing to do with him.T4G and TGC leaders? see what is put on for them, and only what they want to see.
Even this paragraph:
It needs to be said in no uncertain terms that the actual acts alleged in the lawsuit are utterly evil—an offense against a holy God and an act of hatred against innocent children. They are horrifying and revolting. Apart from repentance, they are damning. There is no excuse, at any time or in any place or for any reason, for the use of children for sexual pleasure. Pastors who learn of such abuses should contact the appropriate authorities immediately, institute church discipline, and apply the whole counsel of God (including both law and gospel). Every church should have a clear child protection policy, and in every situation of abuse the victims must be assured that they are not responsible for the crimes committed against them. Furthermore, pastors are responsible to obey all mandatory reporting laws, alerting law-enforcement officials and fully cooperating with all investigations. This is not an alternative to church discipline and gospel counsel, but a necessary and complementary role of divinely instituted civil authories’ posted all by itself at the start of these proceedings would have been helpful in ameliorating the appearance of evil the whole CG has given out by being silent. It was not wise, & I can’t believe why you whould have believed it to be. Even this paragraph would have been useful to those churches who need a shove in the right direction, that is to go to the authorities over issues like this, rather than faffing around with a pseudo-holy ‘oh this is a church matter’. You guys are amateurs, & are putting vulnerable children at risk in the church communities run by men who idolise you, by not shouting this from the rooftops. Step up.
grieving, I really don’t think it is that deep. They have built an empire on the 4 of them as a team. It is not only a HUGE money maker but has brought them tons of followers who hang on every word. This is about saving face and the empire.
You must remember, I hosted a young man who came to T4G last year as some friends from his city called as asked us to put him up and we did gladly. He was totally broke with a wife a kid at home. He had enough money for gas to get here and I often wondered if his car would make it!. He is totally sold out to these guys and coming to that conference was the most important thing in his life. It seemed his spiritual well being was at stake. I packed him lunches and we gave him some just in case money.
Was he typical? Yes I think so based on it being in my city for years and being around it.
It reminded me so much of the Amway people we knew who sacrificed so much to attend their conferences out of town.
These are adoring fans who really truly believe it is about Jesus. Almost mass brainwashing. Mohler, Dever and Duncan cannot afford for Mahaney to look so reprobate. So, he won’t be, according to them. They have spoken. It is really about those folks who don’t like their doctrine. And the adoring fans will believe it.
The FB post with comments has been saved. I’m enjoying reading the comments again.
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s2/sh/e3623beb-3591-4ba2-a332-30f2e94bb79c/48ade443a4715458c112553f82acf8c9
P.S. That T4G posting was utterly outrageous. It was so misleading & just another sad pathetic attempt to deflect very real blame away from very real perpetrators, of abuse, & of a cover up. Oh yes, you’re sooooo sorry for the victims you’ll misrepresent the reasons the lawsuit changed, why CJ should be held accountable (because he runs a successful ministry? Don’t be ridiculous, that’s not the reason), so on & so forth ad nauseum.
I’m not surprised they took that post down because the comments section was a true education – the lies they put out were being graciously destroyed by credible posters. The truth just bit them publically.
“It is disturbing to watch TGC and T4G proceed like this. I even wonder where they get their information from. If it’s from CJ and his men in Louisville, then who knows what’s being conveyed. But they seem to believe everything CJ says and portrays to them, even though the people who were around him the most (CLC) and the churches in that vicinity want nothing to do with him.T4G and TGC leaders? see what is put on for them, and only what they want to see.”
Bridget, Have you ever watched CJ at T4G or the promos? He is always gushing over Mohler, Duncan and Dever. Literally gushing. he acts like a 10 year old boy meeting his baseball card heros. He is their court jester.
If you think these guys don’t like that fawning and flattery, I have some beachfront property in Whitewater, Ark to sell you. :o)
We always assume these celebs are mature emotionally. Big mistake. It is usually the opposite. They are isolated and insulated from reality and many times have not emotionally matured because of that.
This former post from TGC is getting some play. I’m more than happy to point out their stance on abuse and coverup by someone who is not connected to their organization.
http://thegospelcoalition.org/mobile/article/tgc/love-notices-wet-hair
Dee: “However, TGC, in an epic fail in the ‘Christianity has a masculine feel’ department, will not allow comments.”
LOL!
Yep, TGC is displaying an epic fail of manhood.
@ Kristin:
CJ not speaking for himself is classic. He has always arranged it so that he is never his own mouthpiece. I have watched that aspect with interest. He can claim “humility” while others do his speaking for him. It happened within his church. It happened with Larry T. It happened during and after his “break” from ministry. It is happening now with T4G and TGC. I wonder if one day they will feel manipulated. The reason Brent refused to meet with CJ privately is because CJ refuses to put anything in writing and having a personal conversation with him ends up being a he said, they said. We all watched him backpedal about the sin he confessed.
Anon 1: I appreciate your perspective. Thank you for sharing.
if you guys have not read the rest of the comments in Bill’s links, you should. I do have hope that some Reformed are getting it. In fact, some are making points that these men are doing exactly what they have taught against concerning outing wolves, etc.
Posted on wrong thread before–
I got through the GC article until they brought out the ubiquitous Prov 18:17 — poor CJ hasn’t had the chance to,state his case!!! I passionately long for Prov 18:17 quoters to apply the surrounding verses to the same situation– especially giving gifts to curry favor with Big Dogs and casting lots to settle disputes. Th KJV (which gives v17 a little different slant):
15The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge.
16A man’s gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men.
17He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.
18The lot causeth contentions to cease, and parteth between the mighty.
I think they could use a real healthy dose of v 15.
And I double-big-dog dare CJ or any RBD to sit down across from Dara or another spokesperson for the victims and draw straws to settle the issue– trusting God’s sovereign grace for the outcome.
PS What’s left on the T$G FB page is now an impartial endorsement for Sov. Grace Music! Buy some soon!!
@ Desley:
Was Boz’ comment at the Coalition blog post? Because they’ve cleaned out and closed that comment section, too. I’d seen a few comments earlier, but not Boz’.
The only thing amusing about this is that they have become so arrogant they cannot get the PR image management right.
I can imagine some loud words in certain fancy offices about now. Been there, done that. ;o)
“Strange it is, that men should admit the validity of the arguments for free discussion, but object to their being “pushed to an extreme;” not seeing that unless the reasons are good for an extreme case, they are not good for any case. Strange that they should imagine that they are not assuming infallibility, when they acknowledge that there should be free discussion on all subjects which can possibly be doubtful, but think that some particular principle or doctrine should be forbidden to be questioned because it is so certain, that is, because they are certain that it is certain. To call any proposition certain, while there is any one who would deny its certainty if permitted, but who is not permitted, is to assume that we ourselves, and those who agree with us, are the judges of certainty, and judges without hearing the other side.”
-John Stuart Mill, On Liberty 1869
@ Dave A A:
Regarding Proverbs 18:17. I would happy to hear CJ Mahaney himself speak his side of the story. If the lawsuit is really over and he is free and clear, and there is no reason to question his status as “supreme authority” in Calvinista land, why can’t he make his own public statement of innocence? Go ahead, CJ, state your side of the story.
grieving wrote:
LOL
You forgot to add “humble” to that, i.e.: “humble mutual correction.”
(Can’t you just see them all, sitting around in a circle humbly mutually correcting each other?)
@ dee:
And we all know that never in the history of the world has there been a time when millions of slobbering sycophants have been wrong. What poignant logic the mystics bring to the arena of ideas.
Thanks TGC. Once again I prostrate before your superior deceptio…er, intellect.
Er…Christianity has a “masculine feel”. Masculine…feel. What is it with these guys needing to feel their masculinity all the time, and getting it all over everyone else’s business?
Once again, can someone please page Dr. Freud?
Kristin wrote:
kristin, if you read sgmwikileaks you would know that CJ is adept at writing many words and saying nothing of substance. It was filled with cheesy platitudes. He would be reluctantly confronted on something specific and the response never touched on the actual issue but was full of platitudes in Christianese language of SGM. It was surreal. It was like being in a parallel universe.
CJ is the ultimate artful dodger. The only thing he will speak is his favorite passage from proverbs which is supposed to make us think there is some grand answer but we cannot know. Just trust him, you know. He is there to “care for your soul”.
Argo wrote:
Just like they have redefined Sovereignty and grace, they are redefining Christian masculinity, too! It now means cowards who do not protect children.
Anon 1 wrote:
Yep. Cowards who won’t protect children but rather protect other men in leadership so that the all important leadership, hierarchy can be preserved. Because they worship the god of this world (dog eat dog god) rather than the God who walked the earth and said that a millstone should be tied to the neck of any that cause one of these little ones to stumble.
Anon 1 wrote:
…and who are too weak to bear contrary comments under their posts or on FB.
All that fragility indicates an innate need to keep them protected at home and get them involved with small domestic jobs suited to their tender natures. The world out there is just too rough and unruly for the Christian male!
Kristin wrote:
Since the legal troubles aren’t quite over, He’ll have to take the Fifth on that one!
Reminding me of this one from TGC, “Would it have served anyone to take to the blogosphere to express our legal opinion about the conspiracy allegations before the case was decided, much less before it even went to trial?”
— Dammit Jim! I’m a pastor, not a lawyer!— Ok then– Would it have served anyone to take to the blogosphere to express your PASTORAL opinion?
Back to CJ– of course he made his own public statement of innocence BEFORE there was a lawsuit at the 2011 pastors conference, when he withdrew his previous apology because it had made it look like he’d done something wrong. Even in the previous apology he’d made it clear that his sin hadn’t risen to the level of getting caught with his hand in the offering plate or caught with the church secretary so— not really all that bad! A little blackmail here and there, maybe!
@ dee:
This is an integrity issue, as I’ve stated all along.
The TGC quote in your update refers to this post at SGM Survivors.
Note that they don't quote the part that refers to the writer being sexually assaulted as a 13 year old "at a prominent SGM (then PDI) member’s house." That doesn't fit their narrative.
dee wrote:
HUMBLY, of course.
Anon 1 wrote:
And Comrade Pol Pot his most extreme pupil.
Purity of Ideology…
Kristin wrote:
The Party Can Do No Wrong.
Ees Party Line, Comrade.
“Instead, he [Mahaney] was charged with founding a ministry and for teaching doctrines and principles that are held to be true by vast millions of American evangelicals.”
I find this statement by Dever, Duncan, and Mohler to be unintentionally hilarious, as well as highly doubtful. I can imagine them saying it while choking back tears in the Hollywood manner. And not only “millions,” but “vast millions.”
Anon 1 wrote:
Was The Humble One(TM) ever a lawyer?
One of my father’s favorite expressions was “Only a lawyer can talk to you for three hours and say absolutely nothing.”
TedS. wrote:
With their liveried Armorbearers blowing long trumpets before them to announce how Humble they are?
For those of you who missed the Together for the Gospel Facebook post where Mark Dever, Ligon Duncan and Al Mohler trumpeted their support for C.J. Mahaney — along with 115 mostly hostile comments before they were deleted — Bill Kinnon did a screen capture and posted a link here.
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s2/sh/e3623beb-3591-4ba2-a332-30f2e94bb79c/48ade443a4715458c112553f82acf8c9
(You can view this even if you don’t have Facebook. What a PR disaster for Together for the Gospel and these men.)
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I don’t think I’ve ever expressed what a joy you are to me, HUG. Thanks.
Bill Kinnon wrote:
Hmmm this the “threat”?
“Why bring this up? I think it’s quite telling that despite the micromanagement of ‘biblical living’, horrible things have not only slipped under the radar of those ‘caring for our souls’ (etc., barf) but have been actively hidden, squashed, silenced. The pending lawsuit is long-deserved. I hope it ruins the entire organization financially and every single perpetrator and co-conspirator financially, mentally and physically.”
This is what the manly men of masculine Christianity call a threat from a girl who was raped at a PDI/SGM church function when 13?
Of course in the parallel universe of Mohler, Mahaney, Duncan and Dever, perhaps anger from a girl who was raped at a church function (seemed to be a matter of course in that family of churches) is a worse sin than covering up all the molestations and rapes of children by the “Apostle’s” empire? You know, we just don’t like Mahaney’s “strong leadership”. (that is what Mohler told a reporter)
Their spin is wearing thin. They are only communicating how cold hearted and out of touch with reality they really are. They need some real jobs in the real world.
Bill, I appreciated your bringing up imonk Michael Spencer’s “Coming Evangelical Collapse” on twitter. I can remember reading that and thinking there was someone out there who gets it as seen from the inside.
I sure do miss him.
For those of you who have not read it, you might want to google it. It is worth a read.
@ Anon 1:I actually have it open in my browser right now.
@ Patrice:
@Patrice
The comment was taken from the T4G Facebook statement.
@ JeffB:
Yes, they make it sound as though C. J. was charged with the crime of “being Christian.” Which of course, is not actually a crime in this country.
If and when any criminal charges come out of the investigation(s), I wanna see these guys’ reactions.
@ Bill Kinnon:
“The T4G page and comments…”
++++++++++++++
my my my. what a thing to behold.
creating quite the spectacle in theit tent all on their own, string and honey everywhere.
Hester wrote:
Exactly what I was thinking. Because if they refuse actually come right out and say that the way the ministry handled sex abuse cases is wrong, let’s try and save face by claiming “Persecution!”
@ Mara:
And…I can barely keep from bursting out laughing at the use of the word “masculine”. Has anyone ever actually seen CJ and Piper in person? One is like 100 pounds with workbooks on, and the other is just a mite taller than Danny DeVito.
Not that there is anything wrong with that. But I was in SGM 15 years… CJ made the faith seem more self-absorbed, prone to fits of crying, self-entitled, presumptuous, and over-caffeinated, and at times, pretty silly. I never got “masculine”.
He talked a lot about basketball and a lot of other pastors would talk about sports even though none if them looked like they could play anything except maybe drinking games or wing eating contests…maybe pool. Or bowling.
Was that the masculine thing?
These guys and their words. They are like…crazy people talking.
I wonder if TGC bloggers closed comments because no one was commenting. I’ve been watching since they were first posted. It’s been nothing but crickets on their posts.
The only comments on DeYoung’s blog “Why We Have Been Silent about the SGM Lawsuit” are trackbacks from his personal buddies and one 9 Marks church and a really wonderfully creative post by the 5 Pts. Salt blog here: http://5ptsalt.com/2013/05/24/mohler-dever-duncan-carson-taylor-deyoung-aiken-support-of-c-j-mahaney/
Enjoy Tammy Wynette singing “Stand by Your Man.”
The good ole boys network needs a good ole fashioned kick in the butt. My post on The Selective Outrage of Southern Baptists updated with content about Mohler and Gunn. http://shar.es/ZDqGe
Argo wrote:
I have never met Mahaney but Piper had to look up at me. He is tiny. As is Bruce Ware and Russ Moore (who was wearing elevator shoes at the SBC Convention in 2009 in Louisville. it cracked me up: Mr. Patriarchy!)
Janey wrote:
They always moderate. AFter the facebook fiasco you think they are going to take the chance of having a ton of comments come in they would ahve to sift through? They don’t WANT to know what we think. They are doing damaage control right now.
TO OUR READERS:
We just put up a new post. I am really mad.
@ Patrice:
It was on T4G
@ Lee: HOld onto your copy. Calling all bloggers: We can reprint stuff via the Fair Use Doctrine. If a group of us reprinted portions of it and linked to one another, we could put the whole thing back up.
Anon 1 wrote:
Anon 1 — So I assume that means that none of the comments they received was positive? At 7:30 am CT the comments were still open as I recall. Yes, I agree it was a complete meltdown for them.
Argo wrote:
Because they don’t act it.
@ Bill Kinnon: See our new post.
JeffB wrote:
Trillions, even
@ dee:
I was going to say…maybe this isn’t the best time for a kinder, gentler Dee. 🙂
Janey wrote:
You think he will post negative comments?
O please! Good doctrines and founded churches if you discount:
1. The shepherding cultism
2. Restorationism and New Apostolic Reformationism
3. Manifest Sons of God and New Order of Latter Rain influences
4. All the abused children, women and families –
5. The scorn of countless testimonies of believers
6. One of your own apostolic leaders calling you out on your own game
7. A former leader and founding member revealing that he was blackmailed into silence
8. Many of the churcheschurches leaving
9. 30 years of horror stories
10. A miniscule amount of these horror stories shared on the internet when many have silenced
dee wrote:
Maybe I’m not expressing myself clearly: My point was there weren’t ANY positive comments on DeYoung’s blog post.
I am confused about something and was hoping someone here could help to clarify.
The written statement by Burke reads,
“We (the victims and the lawyers) all knew about the statute issue at the outset. But fighting for justice means doing so even against known obstacles. <> The victims are all brave and courageous people whose willingness to fight against evil has already made a difference in the world. Also, please realize going forward with a civil lawsuit does not in any way prevent criminal actions – perhaps may even make it more likely. And please keep praying, as we think the Court erred, and will be appealing her ruling” (<>).
So what I am not understanding is if the case involving CJ Mahaney was conspiracy, wouldn’t the judge dismissing the evidence of conspiracy pretty much legally clear CJ Mahaney of any wrong doing since he wasn’t named personally in the actual abuse allegations?
Don’t get me wrong – I think he is entirely guilty of covering it up and I have no doubt that he encouraged people to deal with the problem “in house.” But this seems to be a pretty legitimate justification for those who want to excuse him. Am I missing something here?
I apologize, for some reason the portion of the statement which I attempted to highlight has disappeared. It reads:
“We had a conspiracy theory to overcome the statute but the Court rejected it.”
@ Janey: I just visited his blog. He has a couple of pingbacks and the comments are closed. I am a little scatterbrained this AM. Pingbacks will show up sometimes even when comments are closed. Do you know if anyone posted any comments prior to him closing it?
Desley wrote:
From what I understand, the judge ruled on the statute of limitations and was not particularly interested in how the alleged conspiracy might have affected it. It appears the attorney will appeal on the basis of that claims. Some of my acquaintances believe that the conspiracy aspect of things will be looked at very seriously by the higher court.
In some respects, it is good that this was brought out before the trial. An outcome which favored the plaintiffs would have definitely been appealed. It will be interesting to see how the appeals court looks at this.
I commented about 50 or 55 comments in on the T4G post. Here’s what I said.
“To all commenting here that are Reformed brothers and sisters, thank you for your courage to call out those within our camp. I am appalled at the statement put forth by t4G, disappointed in the leaders and disgusted by the whole thing.”
As I told another Reformed brother, I am at a crisis as to where to tell people to read for good theology and practice. This whole scandal casts great doubt on the ministry and words of many. But it’s a reminder to look to Christ and not to men or to a system of thought.
@ Desley:
Yes, CJ is cleared. That is why they put up the statement. The Artful Dodger, Who created his own shepherding cult polity Of following him……. Does not mind one bit that all the pastors will be thrown under the bus and he gets off scott free
Correction: CJ is not’ cleared’ so to speak. He gets off scott free because of the statute of limitations in Maryland.
@ SBC Chaplain:
“I am at a crisis as to where to tell people to read for good theology and practice. This whole scandal casts great doubt on the ministry and words of many. But it’s a reminder to look to Christ and not to men or to a system of thought.”
+++++++++++++++++
You can always Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John.
@ dee:
“From what I understand, the judge ruled on the statute of limitations and was not particularly interested in how the alleged conspiracy might have affected it. It appears the attorney will appeal on the basis of that claims. Some of my acquaintances believe that the conspiracy aspect of things will be looked at very seriously by the higher court.”
I understand. The full statement issued by TGC paints it as if the judge dismissed THE ALLEGATIONS OF CONSPIRACY altogether.
This does help to clear things up. Have you attempted to contact the Gospel Coalition or T4G to clarify so they can present the case more accurately?
SBC Chaplain wrote:
Stick to dead authors. You’re a lot safer at this point.
Did TGC Take down their Javert post?
elastigirl wrote:
True, and Paul 🙂
Sallie @ A Woman’s Freedom in Christ wrote:
True. as well.
Backstory from RBD Spacely’s office:
Spacely to self: guess it’s safe to bash those haters now.
Spacely to underling Jetson: And get it published on Facebook — RIGHT NOW!
Jetson: uh er boss… You might wanna think…
Spacely: what part of “right now” do you not understand?
Later…
Spacely to self: They can comment??!!
Spacely to Jetson: Jetson!! You’re Fired!!
SBC chaplain
Awesome comment. Thank you. Too bad they deleted all the comments. Typical wussy behavior from men who claim to be real men.
Anon1
It’s still up.
@ SBC Chaplain:
as long as Paul’s statements are understood through Jesus’ statements and actions, and not the reverse.
@ Dave A A:
David happens like that more than you might think. Also waiting until Memorial Day weekend was another part of the strategy I bet. They made a big mistake by not waiting until tonight to post it. I am speaking strictly from a corporate communications paradigm. Trying to think like I did back in the old days of the mega industrial complex.
@ dee:
Thx. Cannot get it to come up on my phone.
They seem to be good at the spin, and no doubt they hope most of their ‘amen’ crowd doesn’t check out that quote:
(I hope [this lawsuit] ruins the entire organization [of SGM] and every single perpetrator and co-conspirator financially, mentally and physically)
…I mean they might see how it was taken out of context. Their victimhood would be ruined.
I guess if the walls do come crumbling down around them the skill of spin MIGHT give them job offers at their local media outlet! They have shown they have the skills most are looking for there.
T4G statement now available at their website http://t4g.org/statement/ (without comments).
TGC said this:
“Another reason we have remained silent is because we have detailed charges from one side, but essentially no defense from the other side. Scripture warns us about what often happens in such a situation: “The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him” (Prov. 18:17). Can anyone say with certainty who is innocent and who is guilty in these multiple allegations spanning several decades?”
Okay…but don’t they realize that puts all the power right back in the hands of the alleged perpetrators? All the perps have to do is keep silent enough that TGC (and anyone else) doesn’t feel like it has “enough” evidence.
I do not EVER think that people should be ruined based on one side of a story, BUT….you must realize (and TGC should realize) that in a situation like this, because the perps are powerful and the defendants powerLESS, the situation is usually going to play out with the powerless shouting their story to the rooftops in an attempt to gain support—and the powerful will usually remain silent because they have the luxury of doing so. So from the outset, this is a situation where the powerful choose to exercise their power by NOT allowing people to have both sides…and that effectively means they win. At least, they win with people like TGC who believe that they cannot comment at all until everyone has in good faith laid their story on the table.
Sallie @ A Woman’s Freedom in Christ wrote:
Agreed, dead authors tend to be more forthright–their closets are easier to peer into. Save your money. Do not support the substandard TGC book industry. Skip CJ…read Shakespeare instead, a far better investment for the soul.
Pray! Pray for the victims, that they will know healing and feel God’s deep, abiding love for them personally and experience justice in the courts. Pray that each of the perps will be so deeply convicted and their hearts plagued until they drop to their knees in tears, sorrow, and confession to and asking forgiveness of Almighty God first, then confession to their adoring public. Stranger things have happened ….
OP:
It looks like they got the comment from the SGM Survivors blog:
SGM Survivors Blog: Anon’s Story
It’s the last comment in his/her post.
sad observer wrote:
Sad, many of the defendents in the complaint had pulpits, church blogs and stages at their beck and call to get their side out. They have had ample opportunities so why didn’t they? This excuse is one of the oldest in the book in celebrity Christendom. Common sense veto’s it right away. Yawn.
@ Desley:
That comment is very interesting. Boz Tchividjian is the brother of Tullian Tchividjian, who is one of the primary bloggers on TGC. So is this issue literally turning brother against brother?
T4G have reposted their statement on their own website with no comments allowed: http://t4g.org/statement/
Argo wrote:
[[MOD deleted comment]] Language and innuendo beyond the limits. GBTC
Anyone but me thinking of Oliver North?
He has spent over 20 years talking about how he was found innocent of breaking the law. But that isn’t really true.
He was convicted of the crimes. And the evidence against him was true. But on appeal his conviction was set aside due to the overly broad (my opinion) grant of immunity given to him for his testimony before Congress in their zeal to get to the bottom of things.
And then based on the guidelines set down by the appeals court the prosecutors decided that they would not be able to find enough evidence not covered by the Congressional immunity grant to be successful so they never brought him back to trial.
In my book that’s not innocent. And if the alleged facts in the SGM case are held to be true we could be looking at the same thing for the SGM leaders.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Admittedly I was pushing the limits of good taste with that post. But I’m sick of hearing about how masculine these guys are. Like put it away already, it ain’t like you think it is.
Let me be the first to say that their “sound doctrine” is a placebo. They can stop clicking on those spam emails.
Dee and Deb,
Here is why I like the use of your term, “Calvinistas” (to distinguish between the “Young, Restless, and Reformed,” and the “Old, Calm and Settled, and Reformed”):
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/drboli/2013/05/29/ask-dr-boli-195/
You can still read some of the comments at the google cache
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:UahzO9YBNYgJ:https://www.facebook.com/TogetherfortheGospel/posts/10151372507262115+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Boy, preacherbill (Bill Conover) still showing all the class and compassion (in the google cache comments) he’s always had.