Analysis of Breaking News in SGM Lawsuit – It’s Just Beginning…

"I myself will tend my sheep and give them a place to lie down in peace, says the Sovereign Lord.  I will search for my lost ones who strayed away, and I will bring them safely home again. I will bandage the injured and strengthen the weak. But I will destroy those who are fat and powerful. I will feed them, yes—feed them justice!"

Ezekiel 34:15-16 (NLT)

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=4031&picture=holy-bible

Seven months ago to the day a lawsuit was filed in Maryland state court against Sovereign Grace Ministries.  Here is the post we published.  Since the initial filing, John Loftness has stepped down as chairman of the board for Sovereign Grace Ministries, and C.J. Mahaney is no longer SGM president.  

Yesterday WJLA NewsChannel 8 (the ABC News affiliate in Washington, D.C.) aired this report.

This afternoon the Defendants' attorney attempted to have the civil lawsuit dismissed.  The judge ruled that only two of the Plaintiffs are qualified to proceed with the lawsuit.  Nine of the plaintiffs were dismissed from the suit due to technicalities (more on that later).  Here is an excellent analysis by WJLA NewsChanel 8 of what happened in the Montgomery County courtroom.

It is vital to understand that the judge's ruling does not exonerate the defendants or speak to the actual charges included in the lawsuit. 

The judge's decision was merely based on two legal technicalities:

(1) A question of jurisdiction

(2) The three-year statute of limitations running out on some of the plaintiffs

Here are some points to keep in mind:

– A criminal investigation is ongoing.

– There is the possibility of filing a civil lawsuit in a different jurisdiction.

– There may be some judicial ways of dealing with the statute of limitations.

Perhaps the most difficult aspect of this situation for the Defendants is that there is a cloud of grievous allegations hanging over them, and it is not going away any time soon. 

Sovereign Grace Ministries, as a church planting network, will likely encounter problems in trying to establish new churches.  At this point, the ministry's future is just too uncertain.

At this juncture, nothing has been settled.  In fact, it's just beginning…

Lydia's Corner:  2 Samuel 12:1-31  John 16:1-33   Psalm 119:65-80   Proverbs 16:4-5

Comments

Analysis of Breaking News in SGM Lawsuit – It’s Just Beginning… — 87 Comments

  1. What can we do to support the victims? What do they need? Besides the obvious, our prayers. Is there a way to donate to them?

  2. There are some things that are starting to make more sense. Why CJ went to Louisville for one. It could be seen as a positive he distanced himself. He will most likely walk away from this with no consequences and will act like he had no idea. If you noticed on wikileaks CJ was always extremely vague in any documentation. He wrote a lot of vague platitudes but nothing concrete. he is very slick. his big glory days might be over but he won’t suffer at all. He will make sure his people are taken care of by SBTS as far as jobs are concerned. He will probably write a book.

    I am having a hard time seeing how a criminal investigation would harm him. Is the not reporting charge dead?

  3. I agree with Dee:
    This entire effort is just at the beginning. This lawsuit is the start of a spiritual revival — a wave of support for the voiceless and a call for justice for those who abuse power.

    “Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit,” says the Lord.

  4. So if two of the plaintiffs are qualified to proceed, why did the reporters say that the case was “basically dismissed”?

  5. Hester wrote:

    So if two of the plaintiffs are qualified to proceed, why did the reporters say that the case was “basically dismissed”?

    They live in Virginia. Perhaps they will take legal action in that jurisdiction.

  6. Hester wrote:

    Also, if the suit is dismissed based on nothing but the statute of limitations, that’s hardly a “victory” for SGM…

    I found it “interesting” that Denny Burk and Kevin DeYoung retweeted the news from Christianity Today. The tweet said: Judge Tosses out abuse lawsuit against SGM. That might have been the tweet that CT sent out, but it is not completely accurate. Most of it was tossed, not all. Another thing occurred to me. I wonder if they were tweeting when SGM was sued? Or were did they remain quiet to support their good buddy?

  7. @ Anon 1:

    He handled nothing himself either. He usually had someone in between him and whomever was being dismissed, disciplined, or admonished. I have yet to say this, but I’m beginning to view him as evil. I don’t know his motives, but based on what he has done, how he left, how he used people, the chaos he left behind, the people harmed . . . I’m left with no other choice but evil.

  8. @ Julie Anne:

    This case being dismissed didn’t determine innocence or guilt, though. It’s interesting that they don’t mention the SOL reasoning.

  9. Julie Anne wrote:

    I found it “interesting” that Denny Burk and Kevin DeYoung retweeted the news from Christianity Today. The tweet said: Judge Tosses out abuse lawsuit against SGM. That might have been the tweet that CT sent out, but it is not completely accurate. Most of it was tossed, not all. Another thing occurred to me. I wonder if they were tweeting when SGM was sued? Or were did they remain quiet to support their good buddy?

    Julie Anne — Just 30 days ago I naively though that Christianity Today was a credible media outlet, and that Burk and DeYoung and Piper and Mohler were good
    Christian leaders.

    But now it’s clear that something is very wrong with their moral compass. My saintly mother and grandmother would never put up with them.

    Their poor character is nothing new to Wartburg Watch fans. I’m glad I found you all!

  10. Anon 1 wrote:

    am having a hard time seeing how a criminal investigation would harm him. Is the not reporting charge dead?

    When did he know and what did he do with his knowledge? Nothing is dead and don’t count anyone out at this point.

  11. Hester wrote:

    why did the reporters say that the case was “basically dismissed”?

    Remember that it was dismissed on venue and statute of limitations not on the merits of the allegations. So, what if there was another way to get the allegations heard?

    In other words, it was a mere technicality and my guess is that Susan Burke knew something like this might happen.

  12. @ Dee:

    Wasn’t there criminal consequences for those involved in the Sandusky/Penn State case who covered for Sandusky?

  13. Julie Anne wrote:

    Hester wrote:
    Also, if the suit is dismissed based on nothing but the statute of limitations, that’s hardly a “victory” for SGM…
    I found it “interesting” that Denny Burk and Kevin DeYoung retweeted the news from Christianity Today. The tweet said: Judge Tosses out abuse lawsuit against SGM. That might have been the tweet that CT sent out, but it is not completely accurate. Most of it was tossed, not all. Another thing occurred to me. I wonder if they were tweeting when SGM was sued? Or were did they remain quiet to support their good buddy?

    No surprise there. DeYoung will be in Orlando with Mahaney later this month at the Transfer Conference. And Denny Burk probably sees CJ from time to time since they both live in Louisville.

  14. I think the civil lawsuit against SGM, the corporate entity, is dead. The two remaining plaintiffs in Virginia can sue the pastors down there and the church I suppose but probably not SGM or CJ.

    Criminal charges of sexual abuse against all the alleged perps–I know local law enforcement is looking into that and time will tell: if no charges are brought in weeks/months from now, that will cast a large shadow of doubt against the victims (as it should). I think we will see criminal charges shortly…no real reason for thinking this, just my gut.

  15. Deb wrote:

    DeYoung will be in Orlando with Mahaney later this month at the Transfer Conference. And Denny Burk probably sees CJ from time to time since they both live in Louisville.

    These men are rejoicing that a technicality might prevent justice for some “allegedly” abused kids? is that sick or what?

  16. Bummer about the dismissals. I am hoping they can manage to work out the criminal charges and put these people in jail for a good long time. Hopefully people will see it all for what it is at that point too and it will destroy Mahaney’s “ministry.” don’t know if it will, but one can hope.

  17. Dee wrote:

    These men are rejoicing that a technicality might prevent justice for some “allegedly” abused kids? is that sick or what?

    i wonder if they have thought for even a second about the survivors?

  18. @ Julie Anne: They forget that God sees and they will one day face Him. in the meantime, i have no doubt that there will be convictions in this situation. We need to splash some cold water on our faces and maintain.

  19. @ Janey: CT has been going off-track (imo) since 2008 – at least. I started to notice certain changes around then, though whether they’d been taking place prior to then, or whether it’s simply a question of my 1st noticing it about that time, who knows?

  20. numo wrote:

    I’m sure she suspected it might happen. She’s playing a long game…

    Yes. Can you imagine SGM running around saying “we won” based on a technicality. The allegations still stand and will stand until they are dealt with. And it appears there might be a few sick people associated with TGC.
    Hey boys, stand before God some day and tell Him how SGM ”won.” I bet he will be impressed with your logic.

  21. You’d have to be dumb to claim that you “won” because the statute of limitations ran out. Everyone knows that crimes don’t magically un-happen or not happen in the first place because of that. That’s not winning, that’s getting away with something. What happened today doesn’t speak to the truth or falsity of the allegations at all. I’m still inclined to believe them because there’s at least one proven molester involved and so much corroboration of the church culture in general from other witnesses.

    That being said, I wonder how long it will take before someone claims the case was thrown out because they found out the allegations were false (which they didn’t).

  22. @ Hester:
    It will be spun that way. It IS a victory for them, because now they can say the case was thrown out. People won’t ask why and they will assume it was it because the accusations were false. The spin will be easy because people don’t want to see the truth. Victims ask us to get involved and stand up against opression. Abusers ask us to do nothing. Tell me which side the general public will be on?

    If there isn’t a long game here, then SGM won this thing unless the church takes the stand it should. And ironically, Jared Wilson’s tweet (which I did like) turns out to be false: it appears the law did not have what it takes to deal with this issue. If justice does fail through the courts, will he see the need to take action from his public platform?

    I have to wonder why Burke didn’t see this coming; it seems an obvious issue with the case. I do hope she has something in mind, but I am a little more pessimistic than Dee. Maybe I’m just tired of evil winning in this battle and feeling like we are in a psalm of David. I know that heaven’s justice will be realized one day, but right now it hurts my heart so much.

  23. Denny Burk deleted his tweet. I have the long story if someone wants it, but the short version is that he said the title was misleading. That is a valid statement to be sure. Christianity Today did a poor job constructing that original tweet.

    The first title was: Judge tosses out abuse lawsuit against Sovereign Grace Ministries
    2nd title: Judge Tosses Out Most of Abuse Lawsuit Against Sovereign Grace Ministries

  24. Bridget wrote:

    He handled nothing himself either. He usually had someone in between him and whomever was being dismissed, disciplined, or admonished.

    Plausible Deniability.

  25. Just like a crop it takes time, nurturing, and patients to grow and bare worthy fruit. This lawsuit is still a sapling and God is still watering and fertilizing the field. Justice will come and the fruit will be reaped to its full and ripe potential. Everyone just needs to do their part and keep exposing the truth.

    I know I’m new to commenting, but thank you Dee and Deb for doing your part and being advocates of the victims. It is not unseen, it is not forgotten, and this is not over. Also thank you everyone else here who continues to side with the oppressed and abandoned instead of the wealthy and revered. I believe Christ is smiling down upon this blog for acting on His words.

  26. Dee wrote:

    These men are rejoicing that a technicality might prevent justice for some “allegedly” abused kids? is that sick or what?

    In their mind, the Determinist God protected His Elect from PERSECUTION.

    Spin Spin Spin Spin Spin Spin Spin Spin Spin Spin Spin
    Godtalk Godtalk Godtalk Godtalk Godtalk Godtalk Godtalk
    Humble Humble Humble Humble Humble Humble Humble Humble

  27. I don’t think the response should be disgust at the spin, but rather fear for those families still involved with SGM to whom it will be suggested that these men are not proven monsters, but rather persecuted Christians. No way have these evil people learned their lesson- they will do their best to smooth it over as they have before. 🙁

  28. Once anyone is accused of sexual abuse, it’s hard to shake off. Especially in in church setting. I’m sure SGM were banking on the fact the statute of limitations, but that is also from an earthly perspective. As Christians, we should be focused on an eternal perspective- repentance and forgiveness. What these men did was beyond comprehension. These men are still active in church. You can’t tell me that they stopped their sick behavior since they knew they could get away with it because of the parameters that were established. They used biblical teaching to manipulate, oppress, and abuse. God sees all of this. He knows we live in a fallen world. He will heal, He will judge, and He will provide freedom from these chains of sin.

    This is not over.

  29. The sheer numbers of victims that have come forward, (and with more coming forward apparently) is a stain that will never be removed, in my opinion. There will always be doubt in most people’s minds. Only the hard core CJ groupies might be hoodwinked into believing his carefully crafted lies, but again, if Almighty God is cleaning house (and it looks like He is!), the house of cards will eventually come tumbling down…hopefully sooner rather than later. I myself don’t ever want to hear the word “Gospel” come out of his mouth again….ugh

  30. I’m late getting to this most recent amendment. Work has been so tiring lately, I didn’t think I’d have the energy for it until the weekend. I spent the better part of an hour reading through the newest allegations (and wishing I hadn’t eaten beforehand). Then some more time reading comments and commentary. Finally, I learn that most of the civil case has been dismissed. All in one afternoon. Emotionally draining, to say the least.

    I just started a job at a kindergarten here. The very thought of any teacher betraying trust in that way, or of any of my students being violated like that, makes me both angry and physically ill.

    Like Dee and others above, I hope and pray that the attorney has something in mind. And that the victims will have the strength and fortitude to deal with this setback.

  31. Speaking of Louisville and lawsuit Defendant C.J. Mahaney, the largest Christian booksellers convention, the International Christian Retail Show (ICRS) will be in Louisville, June 23-26, 2013.

    I wonder if C.J. Mahaney’s publisher, Waterbrook Multnomah, or will be recommending him as a speaker since he lives right there.

    I wouldn’t think they would. But who knows? The arrogance of pastors such as C.J., Denny Burk, and Kevin DeYoung is absolutely astounding. Their utter lack of interest or compassion toward 11 people who’ve told these horrendous stories about child sexual abuse boggles my mind.

    I don’t know why any Christian who had read the Gospels and knows Jesus’ heart for children would attend their churches.

  32. Dee wrote:

    Deb wrote:
    DeYoung will be in Orlando with Mahaney later this month at the Transfer Conference. And Denny Burk probably sees CJ from time to time since they both live in Louisville.

    These men are rejoicing that a technicality might prevent justice for some “allegedly” abused kids? is that sick or what?

    You know, if I were an innocent defendant, I’d be upset about this ruling. Especially if I were a well known pastor. As I pastor I’d be concerned not just for my own name, but for the truth so Christ’s people would not be in confusion and the testimony before the world would be upheld. I would want everything to go to court and be fully uncovered so there was no question in anyone’s mind what the truth was.

    Now, if I were a guilty defendant I suppose my attitude would be different.

    But, hey. That’s just me.

  33. numo wrote:

    CT has been going off-track (imo) since 2008 – at least. I started to notice certain changes around then, though whether they’d been taking place prior to then, or whether it’s simply a question of my 1st noticing it about that time, who knows?

    Numo — Okay, what you are saying rings some bells. I’m going to call an old college friend who used to work at Christianity Today and see if I can get the inside story.

  34. anonymous wrote:

    You know, if I were an innocent defendant, I’d be upset about this ruling. Especially if I were a well known pastor. As I pastor I’d be concerned not just for my own name, but for the truth so Christ’s people would not be in confusion and the testimony before the world would be upheld. I would want everything to go to court and be fully uncovered so there was no question in anyone’s mind what the truth was.

    Now, if I were a guilty defendant I suppose my attitude would be different.

    But, hey. That’s just me.

    Anonymous — I wish you would add that as a comment to this Christianity Today article. You can post anonymously.
    http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2013/05/judge-dismisses-sovereign-grace-ministries-abuse-lawsuit.html

  35. To Our Readers

    We are getting reporst that the ruling will be appealed. This is far from over and the happy boys better not break their legs jumping up and down.

  36. Janey wrote:

    Christianity Today just posted another story this morning. I commented, but my comment from May 14 was deleted, so I don’t have high hopes that they will leave up this comment.
    Go here: http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2013/05/judge-dismisses-sovereign-grace-ministries-abuse-lawsuit.html

    I tried to comment on a recent post they did about Richard Land by posting some links to Christa Brown’s blogposts about him. The comment went into moderation, but was never published. They published critical comments about Land, but these comments only criticized his comments about making “green berets and paratroopers.” Obviously, any comment that could substantially call into question Land’s standing as an evangelical leader and moral/ethical authority had to be censored.

    It is the same reason that they are deleting comments about CJ. The operators of that blog are sympathetic to the fundagelicals.

  37. Janey – I saw your comment posted at CT site. I find it odd that the entire article is taken from WJLA’s report. There is nothing different or new information from Greta Kreuz’s tv interview. In that tv interview, there was an interview with an attorney from the defendants’ side and also the interview with Renee Gamby.

    I am completely baffled that there was only one news station reporting this. Really? I hope Pam or someone else is reading and can verify. I just do not get it. I am angry. At one point in my lawsuit I had so many reporters sticking mics out in front of me and asking questions that I had no idea which camera to look at. This was because my pastor was all whiney and didn’t like me complaining about him online and here we have a case where many children were sexually molested for YEARS and just one station covered it? I’m very disappointed at the media response. This is just not right.

  38. @ Julie Anne: I think it has to do with the scope of the case. This is going to go on for a long time. Yours was relatively quick and made for a good story with a quick resolution.

    The media will do updates about significant events until it comes time for the actually court battle which I think will occur. At that point, the media will dive bomb in droves. That will also happen when Morales is tried.

    Upon arrest, If the police perp walk any pastors or teachers, that will also hit the news.

  39. @ Janey: Hmm… this should be interesting!

    I quit reading CT some time ago, due to what I believe to be a confluence of secular and church-related political maneuvering and spin and (etc. etc.) there starting 9as mentioned earlier) around 2008 – or may I just began noticing it then.

    There was a big change in editorial staff starting somewhere around that time…

  40. @ dee:
    Yes – also, this is happening in the D.C. metro area. There’s SO much happening there, all the time, that I’m sure this will all get coverage in due course, as Dee says.

    But right now, it’s not as big a breaking story as it might seem.

  41. Jeff S wrote:

    @ Hester:
    It will be spun that way. It IS a victory for them, because now they can say the case was thrown out. People won’t ask why and they will assume it was it because the accusations were false. The spin will be easy because people don’t want to see the truth. Victims ask us to get involved and stand up against opression. Abusers ask us to do nothing. Tell me which side the general public will be on?

    If there isn’t a long game here, then SGM won this thing unless the church takes the stand it should. And ironically, Jared Wilson’s tweet (which I did like) turns out to be false: it appears the law did not have what it takes to deal with this issue. If justice does fail through the courts, will he see the need to take action from his public platform?

    I have to wonder why Burke didn’t see this coming; it seems an obvious issue with the case. I do hope she has something in mind, but I am a little more pessimistic than Dee. Maybe I’m just tired of evil winning in this battle and feeling like we are in a psalm of David. I know that heaven’s justice will be realized one day, but right now it hurts my heart so much.

    jeff, your entire comment resonates with me. you are right, people don’t want the details or nuances just that it was ‘thrown out’.

    i do think that cj will walk away from this not smelling like a rose but with no consequences for the evil empire he built around himself. It is ironic is it not? Not for crimes but I saw so many people hitch their star to a mega celeb only to be thrown to a curb later. I do agree with Bridget on something….The evil done by these men actually gave CJ leverage over them. Now we know why Tomzack faded away instead of daring to stand up to him and split the place in two. CJ had the goods on him.

    Yes, I am also weary of the evil false “Christians” getting away with it. I have seen it for years. But there is something even more worrying about it. I watched over time as normal was dumbed down to accepting more and more evil from people with such platitudes as “sinners sin” or redefining concepts. People are becoming more and more desensitized to evil. Does anyone think I would trust Denny Burke for anything? No. Why? He is one of many who make thier living in Christendom who are thrilled to spin this for CJ. NOT ONE MENTION OF WHAT IF the charges are TRUE? NOthing about what if we are wrong and little children were raped by ministers and covered up by SGM? That part does not matter to him, we know, because total silence UNTIL it was dismissed. Then he comes out of silence?

    Cold hardened hearts. I don’t expect that to change and I wish more would wake up to what evil they are enabling when they listen to these guys, buy tickets to hear them speak, etc, etc. They are helping to desensitize themselves to evil.

    i do have a hard time believing Burke would spend this much time and money for a contigency fee on this much of a long shot. There surely is a longer term grander strategy.

    The irony of this for CJ is he is basically out of it now. And he was able to extricate himself leaving a big mess for his “protege'” he mentored since 20 who has grown up in a patriarchal evangelical bubble all his life with no real world education at all. Do folks realize Joshua Harris has been a kept man all his life? Left daddy where he was homeschooled, goes and lives with CJ’s family while being mentored while having a home, job provided for him, etc.

    Why do folks even give these guys one second of credibility? I don’t get it.

  42. I had a dream last night.

    I was talking to a cop at a restaurant, telling him my “Nobody is as Concerned or Compassionate or Sincere as a sociopath”, when in mid-speech C.J.Mahaney was standing next to us with this gloating smile of triumph on his face — the same expression I saw so often on the sociopath in my family: “I! WIN!”

    I am not making this up. This was completely out-of-the-blue. This was weird even for me.

  43. numo wrote:

    CT has been going off-track (imo) since 2008 – at least. I started to notice certain changes around then, though whether they’d been taking place prior to then, or whether it’s simply a question of my 1st noticing it about that time, who knows?

    Another Calvinista stealth takeover?

  44. Nicholas wrote:

    It is the same reason that they are deleting comments about CJ. The operators of that blog are sympathetic to the fundagelicals.

    Remember A GOD CAN DO NO WRONG. (Humbly, of course.)

  45. Janey wrote:

    I wouldn’t think they would. But who knows? The arrogance of pastors such as C.J., Denny Burk, and Kevin DeYoung is absolutely astounding. Their utter lack of interest or compassion toward 11 people who’ve told these horrendous stories about child sexual abuse boggles my mind.

    Their Doctrine is Correct.
    Their Ideology is Pure.

  46. @ Julie Anne:

    I watched the news report about the dismissal and the defense attorney made what I found to be a very interesting comment in passing. When asked if he was glad about the ruling, he said (paraphrasing slightly) this (emphasis mine):

    For my clients, yes, I am glad.”

    Not actually glad. Just glad professionally. Probably means nothing, I’m probably crazy. But I found it interesting nonetheless.

  47. If any of the sexual abuse occured in Virginia the people at SGM would do well to be very afraid. There’s no statute of limitations for rape in Virginia.

  48. It took several years for the case against Jerry Sandusky to be built and mounted.

    When the Harrisburg (PA) Patriot-News published the 1st reports of rumored child sexual abuse by Sandusky, the outcry against the allegations was deafening. (And the stories largely ignored.)

    and yet…. The reporter who 1st broke the stories ended up winning a Pulizter; there was indeed a criminal trial, and Sandusky is behind bars.

    I keep thinking of this quote

  49. @ Anna:

    “I don’t think the response should be disgust at the spin, but rather fear for those families still involved with SGM to whom it will be suggested that these men are not proven monsters, but rather persecuted Christians. No way have these evil people learned their lesson- they will do their best to smooth it over as they have before.”
    ***************

    I don’t understand why you make your “should” statement. Your alternative is every reason for disgust at the spin.

  50. @ Hester:

    “…a very interesting comment in passing. When asked if he was glad about the ruling, he said (paraphrasing slightly) this (emphasis mine):

    “For my clients, yes, I am glad.”

    Not actually glad. Just glad professionally. Probably means nothing…”
    *******************************

    I’ve been thinking about that all morning. Robert Worst (Sovereign Grace Church of Fairfax attorney) is walking a dicey tightrope of how successful he appears versus how humane he appears. I didn’t like his summation of “…it was the right decision.”

    I really didn’t like his choice of the word “right”.

    Robert Worst who are you to say what is “the RIGHT decision” to have been made? It was merely legal.

  51. Anon 1 wrote:

    i do have a hard time believing Burke would spend this much time and money for a contigency fee on this much of a long shot. There surely is a longer term grander strategy.

    An honest lawyer will not take a case unless they believe there is a chance of winning it for their client. Statute of limitations is fairly easy to research. Any of us can google that information. I want to believe that Susan Burke has a bigger plan here, though this outcome is disheartening.

    I know someone who was involved in a lawsuit with their insurance company decades ago. Their lawyer informed them, right before going into the courtroom, that they were going to lose this case. But, he would then file another one immediately after that would double the settlement. He lost the case, and the insurance company’s lawyers panicked when they realized what was coming next. It played out just like the lawyer said it would.

    I’m curious to see if this is really the last word on this.

  52. Off Topic.
    Robertson is a conservative evangelical Word of Faither, not a Neo-Calvinist, but gender complementarianism / “blame women for everything, even for men’s sins” runs across denominational and theological school of thought lines:

    Pat Robertson Defends Cheating Husband, Blames Wife, Media (Video)

    I’m not sure, but I think Robertson used to be a Southern Baptist preacher? While doing a web search to confirm that, I just saw this page in the results, and it’s on Wiki:
    “Pat Robertson controversies”

    The guy puts his foot in his mouth so often, he not only has a normal wiki bio page, but a separate one devoted solely to his insensitive or weird comments.

    His bio page on Wiki says he did in fact work previously as a “Southern Baptist minister.”

  53. Since neo Calvinist are modern day puritans, I wonder if any of them pulled these types of antics during those “glorious” puritanical days? I know they burned “witches” but I wonder what else they justified? If you notice that the puritans became so rigid, people splintered from them and became Unitarian etc. it makes you wonder if SGM and other Neo Calvinist will reap a similar harvest?

  54. @ numo:
    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    numo wrote:
    CT has been going off-track (imo) since 2008 – at least. I started to notice certain changes around then, though whether they’d been taking place prior to then, or whether it’s simply a question of my 1st noticing it about that time, who knows?
    Another Calvinista stealth takeover?

    Exactly, HUG. It seemed right around that point that CT morphed into Calvinism Today. Arminian viewpoints and writers seemed to disappear altogether from the magazine, with the exception of Roger Olson, whom they seem to keep around as a
    “token” Arminian.

  55. Daisy wrote:

    Off Topic.
    Robertson is a conservative evangelical Word of Faither, not a Neo-Calvinist, but gender complementarianism / “blame women for everything, even for men’s sins” runs across denominational and theological school of thought lines:
    Pat Robertson Defends Cheating Husband, Blames Wife, Media (Video)
    I’m not sure, but I think Robertson used to be a Southern Baptist preacher? While doing a web search to confirm that, I just saw this page in the results, and it’s on Wiki:
    “Pat Robertson controversies”
    The guy puts his foot in his mouth so often, he not only has a normal wiki bio page, but a separate one devoted solely to his insensitive or weird comments.
    His bio page on Wiki says he did in fact work previously as a “Southern Baptist minister.”

    He stayed Southern Baptist long enough to get ordained, I think; but given his charismatic leanings in the 70s, the Southern Baptists tended to distance themselves from The 700 Club. Ol’ Punchdrunk Pat wouldn’t pass muster in any SBC church today.
    He really hasn’t been a Southern Baptist with any kind of standing for decades now.

  56. In the SBC I grew up in, the 700 club was considered the lunatic fringe along with Jim Bakker’s PTL. Not accepted at all.

  57. Mike wrote:

    @ numo:
    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    numo wrote:
    CT has been going off-track (imo) since 2008 – at least. I started to notice certain changes around then, though whether they’d been taking place prior to then, or whether it’s simply a question of my 1st noticing it about that time, who knows?
    Another Calvinista stealth takeover?

    Exactly, HUG. It seemed right around that point that CT morphed into Calvinism Today. Arminian viewpoints and writers seemed to disappear altogether from the magazine, with the exception of Roger Olson, whom they seem to keep around as a
    “token” Arminian.

    Collin Hansen’s Young, Restless, Reformed came out in 2008….

  58. anonymous wrote:

    Collin Hansen’s Young, Restless, Reformed came out in 2008….

    I have a better name for the YRR and YRTR: CALVINJUGEND.

  59. Mike wrote:

    Exactly, HUG. It seemed right around that point that CT morphed into Calvinism Today.

    Predestination?

  60. elastigirl wrote:

    Robert Worst who are you to say what is “the RIGHT decision” to have been made? It was merely legal.

    Like that local law firm who got disbarred to a man for shady business practices (OSHA violation extortion racket targeting small businesses who couldn’t afford lawyers); their defense before the Bar Association was “But Everything We Did Was LEGAL!”

    (I later found out through a local city attorney who is in my IPMS chapter that the head of the law firm not only got disbarred but hit with criminal charges — fraud and impersonating an official — which stuck.)

  61. Hester wrote:

    “For my clients, yes, I am glad.”

    Oh, that’s funny – I had the same thought. For his clients, yes, but for him no? It seemed to be an odd public statement.