The first point of wisdom is to discern that which is false; the second, to know that which is true.
– Lucius Caelius Lactantius link
Tulip discerns that dinner is coming!
My elderly stepfather had a medical emergency this afternoon that necessitated medical visits. I will need to spend the night with him since he might have to be hospitalized, so this post is not going to be polished off in the way that I hoped. However, I still think it will provoke some discussion! I cannot wait to hear what you all think about a couple of items.
We are continuing with the topic of discernment. We, along with others, have been accused of being a "discernment" blog which, if I read the meaning correctly, is not good. However, we know that there is "discernment" going on all the time by famous Christians who love to talk with the nation's news media. They also write books(and more books) and promote their websites and blogs for general evangelical consumption. These Christian news makers appear to get a pass from the fawning evangelical paparazzi whose enterprises depend on the goodwill of said leaders.
Here is my working premise. If Christians admire/follow a preacher and theology, (s)he is "godly" and "recommended." If they do not admire or follow a preacher and his theology, (s)he is barely a Christian and "not recommended."
I will preface the following with two "discerning" observations.
1. I am opposed to "famous" Christians discerning the intent of the Almighty whenever a disaster occurs. The last time I checked, knowing the mind of God was way above my pay grade. But, if one is to believe "theological rock star" Christians, they have a hot line to the Spirit who informs them as to "who" the Almighty is punishing with every drought and tornado out there. Can we say theological "hubris?"
2. When terrorists flew their planes into the World Trade Center or a tornado struck a Lutheran convention discernment pundits let us (and the entire news media know) that it had something to do with the decline in American values which allowed abortion and gay marriage. So, why didn't God punish Sweden, which has one of the highest living standards in the world, allows abortion and gay marriage and is most supportive of the Lutheran church which was the state church until 2001? Why not Amsterdam which is considered a rather "swinging" place with its legal drugs and legal prostitution? Why Minnesota and not the brothels in Nevada? Could it be that we Americans Christians are utterly convinced that it is all about us? And could it be that they are wrong? If so, does anyone dare call them on the carpet for it?
Let's take a look at some of these knowledgeable and very sure Christian leaders.
When Both John Piper and Pat Robertson "Know"
John Piper perceived why a tornado hit a Minneapolis. It was due to the Lutherans. Read here for his full statement.
(A tornado struck) during the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America's national convention in the Minneapolis Convention Center. The convention is using Central Lutheran across the street as its church. The first buildings on the downtown side of I94 are the Minneapolis Convention Center and Central Lutheran. The tornado severely damages the convention center roof, shreds the tents, breaks off the steeple of Central Lutheran, splits what’s left of the steeple in two…and then lifts.
The tornado in Minneapolis was a gentle but firm warning to the ELCA and all of us: Turn from the approval of sin. Turn from the promotion of behaviors that lead to destruction
Pat Robertson understood why God caused Ariel Sharon's health to decline. here
Robertson's reaction to the 2006 stroke that debilitated Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon hurt him, both in the public eye and in his wallet. After he noted that Sharon's sudden decline in health could be ascribed to his policy of "dividing God's land" by ceding Gaza to the Palestinians
Throughout the evangelical community there was, and is, a general condemnation of Pat Robertson because it is cool to be disparaging of old Pat. However, there appears to be a glowing approbation and sage nodding of heads when John Piper does the same thing.
Jerry Falwell knew why God caused 911 here.
I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.
Mac Brunson grasped why God caused 911 and Hurricane Katrina link.
"If [God’s] blessings won't get our attention, then maybe buffeting will…what to me was an embarrassing moment in American history was the scandal of Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky….and what did we do as a nation? We made jokes about it and we laughed about it and did not repent. Not following far behind that came 9/11 and according to George Barna that had an impact on this nation for approximately 4 to 6 weeks. Then behind that came Katrina, wiped out an entire city. What did we do as a nation?…What did we do? We do NOTHING in the midst of all of it! Nothing! And thousands of people have lost everything, an entire city wiped out. How much louder does the voice of God have to get to America?
“We end up in an oil crisis where families can't afford to put $4 a gallon gas in their cars and now in the past week we've had the largest drop on the Wall Street in its 112 year history…. …You think God hadn't been actively doing something? God says 'I've been active all this time. I've been active putting into place all these things. I've been actively seeing how high I can get gasoline for you Americans. I've been actively seeing how I can cause the economy to crash, because if you will not turn to me in my blessings on you, I will take them away, as Hosea took away the blessings of Gomer. And nobody, the bible says, will be deliver you out of My hands."
Al Mohler told the news that people did not support CJ Mahaney because of his "strong"spiritual direction. (Do not bring up that icky stuff with kids.) link
Mohler added: “Any time you’re going to take on the role of leadership, you’re going to have critics.”
Mohler also supported Sovereign Grace’s highly centralized leadership structure in its churches, with “very strong pastoral direction” and internal discipline.
“It’s something clearly called for in the New Testament,” he said.
Mohler said he knew this practice has had online critics for years.
“Basically there are people who are very uncomfortable with the strong kind of spiritual direction that comes through the Sovereign Grace Ministries,” Mohler said. “It’s very hard to criticize it on biblical terms, as you’ll see on most of those Web sites. It basically comes down to the criticism, ‘I don’t like that.’”
Discerning Reader link discerns who is honoring God in the Christian book world and who is not! Read this partial list carefully!
Discerning Reader is a site dedicated to promoting good books–books that bring honor to God. At the same time, we hope to help Christians avoid being unduly influenced by books and teachers that are not honoring to God.
We do not seek to be harsh or judgmental. Rather, we seek only to be discerning as we compare books to the written Word of God. We let the words of authors speak for themselves and simply hold the books up to the light of Scripture. In doing so, we are building a database of reviews which we feel cast a discerning light on the books that are found in Christians homes, churches and bookstores.
Who/what are some of the authors/books deemed NOT honoring to God? (The numbers indicate the number of books by that author that were reviewed.)
- Max Lucado x1
- Phillip Yancey x2
- Rick Warren x3
- Dallas Willard x1
- Roger Olson x1
Who are some of the authors who ARE honoring to God? (Interestingly, the site declares that Mark Driscoll is one of the most viewed authors but there are no books currently under his name. Were they deleted or was he never reviewed?)
- CJ Mahaney x 6
- Carolyn Mahaney x2
- Doug Wilson x5
- Joshua Harris x4
- John Piper x22
- Nancy Leigh DeMoss x7
- John MacArthur x14
- Kirk Cameron x1
- Ann Coulter x1 (!!!!!)
- Poor CS Lewis only rates 3 recommends while Mahaney gets 6?
Anne Graham Lotz let us know why 911 as well as the time frame for the Second Coming.
All I knew that God was attempting to get the attention of his people, including me."
"I also saw a humiliating vision of my own sin."
"I spent days on my face before God, confessing my sin and receiving his cleansing.
"From Hurricane Katrina to the record breaking floods, forest fires, tornadoes, droughts,and snow storms; to the collapse of major financial institutions,to the economic recession, to the inability to win the war in Afghanistan. The alarm keeps resounding because so many people have not heeded, or even heard, the warning."It is time to repent and invite God back into our lives,” Lotz said.
“The signs that Jesus gave us in the Bible and the headlines in the news are coming together in a dramatically sobering way.”
Lotz, now 63, says she profoundly believes that if she lives out her natural life, she will live to see the physical return of Jesus to earth."
Kevin DeYoung, Carl Trueman and Ray Ortlund declare CJ Mahaney "fit" for leadership link (Guess they didn't see the lawsuit coming which does raise a question about discernment.)
We do not believe C.J. Mahaney’s confessed sins have disqualified him from Christian ministry. Or to put it positively, from all that we have seen, heard, and read, we believe C.J. Mahaney is, at this moment in time and based on those sins which he has acknowledged, still fit to be a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ and a pastor to others.”
I had a myriad of other examples but I must end it here. However, I do find it amusing that Ann Coulter is considered "honoring to God" and "discernment bloggers" are considered "gospel" deficient. That is something to ponder this weekend.
Lydia's Corner: 1 Samuel 1:1-2:21 John 5:1-23 Psalm 105:37-45 Proverbs 14:28-29
Dee
Wowzers! Nancy Leigh DeMoss has more recommended books on that ‘discernment’ website than C.J.
I’m keeping your stepdad in my prayers. Hope he gets better soon! He’s fortunate to have such a good nurse. 😉
I’m guessing the discernment reader site is reformed. I’m reformed, and I would recommend books that lead towards that theology just like someone who is not reformed will probably not recommend those books. No surprise there. but Anne Coulter!?!?!
@ PP:Would you not recommend Yancey? And I would definitely recommend that people read both reformed and not reformed. Everybody should carefully read both sides IMO
Dee,
It is my fervent hope that the Almighty will intervene supernaturally for your step dad. I am not a praying man in the sense of what’s expected & considered valid in evangelical Christendom, and this is as close to prayer as I can get. Let’s just say that I’d like the Almighty to do for him what I would want done for myself.
Discerning Reader’s list told me nothing except that the author is a Calvinist complementarian.
Also there’s an interesting chapter in Mark Noll’s book The Civil War as a Theological Crisis in which he documents how both the North and the South were equally convinced that God had “clearly” shown Himself to be on their side.
Dee,
Is Tulip smiling? That’s a great photo!
It is one thing to recommend books that affirm your theological bent but to say that specific books by these authors are not honoring to God…..
Max Lucado x1
• Phillip Yancey x2
• Rick Warren x3
• Dallas Willard x1
• Roger Olson x1
????
Dee, I am very sorry to hear about your stepfather. I hope he gets well.
Eagle,
I left some posts for you in the previous thread about Welch (here). There is another about Welch for you a post or two down that same page.
About the OP (original post).
Ann Coulter is more about politics, unless she’s written a book about Christianity/ theology I don’t know of, so it’s weird she’s on their book list.
Putting Mark Driscoll on a list for any thing, other than being a bad influence or oddly obsessed with sex, is laughable to me.
So many tragedies are listed in this post – Katrina, the tornado in Minnesota, etc. but the 9/11 musings in particular make me ill, simply ill.
I love this site but I shouldn’t read this kind of stuff, it’s too upsetting.
Such garbage “Christian pronouncements” are grievous and dishonor in so many ways all who died on that day and their families.
People CONTINUE to die horrible deaths at the hands of driven extremists who have certainly morphed in their organization and locations in the last 12 years but I can assure you are still out there with deadly serious intent.
People from many nations are still dying at these people’s hands DAILY, and America’s evangelical “leaders” show themselves to be no better than the Westboro Baptist Church freaks in passing judgement on the cause. They are wicked, all of them.
Regarding Ariel Sharon – if it is still playing in your town I cannot recommend highly enough the outstanding feature documentary “The Gatekeepers” which is a series of interviews with the living former heads of Shin Bet, the Israeli internal security service that also operates in Gaza and the West Bank.
These men offer astounding perspectives and do not pull punches in their criticism of Israel’s political leadership and their inability to deal with the Israeli conservatives, who are championed by American evangelicals due to dispensationalist doctrines.
Oh, and by the way – they all agree that a 2 state solution is the only means of stopping the violence.
Not that American evangelicals give a rats patoot, mind you.
🙁
@ Eagle:
Thanks Eagle. I will really enjoy reading your iMonk guest post and like you, I am really agitated by this stuff.
9/11 was simply too close in many, many ways for me and since then I’ve lost loved ones to extremists, the last being just this past September 2012.
Do go catch “The Gatekeepers” if you get a chance, it’s still showing in the DC area (where I saw it 2 weeks ago). Took my breath away!
Dee, praying your stepdad is ok
Wasn’t Discerning Reader originally one of Challies’ spinoffs?
I write this very cautiously, since I try to avoid criticising other peoples’ countries etc, but as a non-American I am frequently struck by the way some Americans talk about their country as if it is the new Israel, with a special and unique role in God’s plans (Does this go back to the Puritans and their theocratic vision of the new nation they were building? American history is not my area) It seems to me that some of that thinking lies behind some of these obscene pronouncements about disasters. America is somehow supposed to reach some moral pinnacle which no other society has ever reached, and is somehow judged more harshly than any other place when they don’t reach it. (Oddly, their God only punishes for things like sexual sin, abortion etc,or doctrinal wobbliness, never for all those other things the Bible condemns like injustice, exploitation, pride, abuse, dishonesty etc etc.
Of course, there was that little verse in Exodus about taking God’s name in vain …
that should have been some American celebrity Christians. I don’t for one moment think that most Americans believe such things!
@ Lynne T: Some of it dates back to that (like Ronald Reagan’s citing John Winthrop’s “shining city on a hill” quote in a speech), but there’s also the 19th-c. concept of Manifest Destiny, and its current iteration, American Exceptionalism.
I have no time for any of them, though the ideas are in the air over here; were pervasive in history and social studies texts when I was growing up, ditto for TV and other media, so it can be hard to shake – and often, very difficult to recognize for what it is.
And I’m sure I’ve still got prejudices that come directly from all of these trends in thought and self-perception (of myself as a US citizen and of the US itself).
Your Exodus quote is duly noted, too!
Thanks, that confirms my impression. It fascinates me that, while I’m sure all cultures are equally composed of sinners, they take on such different flavours. Except among a few devoted followers, no Aussie religious leader who said stuff like that would be taken seriously. We know we’re only a little country in the scheme of things. Of course over here it would also be considered a major revival if 10% of the population went to church.
Lynne T wrote:
Yup. And also the verses about stoning false prophets…
Maybe these people should spend more time reading the book of James. He would recommend to error on the side of caution and keep their mouths shut. Of course, I don’t think these types read James much. (I sent Dee and Deb a post I wrote about why I don’t think the patricentric types have James 2 in their Bibles.)
I don’t know much about Ann Coulter but I managed to read a whole paragraph of one of her books before putting it down angrily. She seemed to really despise single mothers. Also, I heard her talking really obnoxiously about the Amanda Knox trial. I think that as an author/pundit she is not honouring to God!
Lynne T wrote:
These words are from the US Marine Corps’ hymn:
“If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven’s scenes;
They will find the streets are guarded
By United States Marines.”
Sometimes I don’t know whether to laugh or cry…
What might cause such folk to discern God’s hand in our national disasters? Some possibilities:
1. Personal opinions so strong that they are confused with God’s mind. I have firm opinions, but I don’t think they speak God’s mind.
2. Pure superstition. Instead of being punishments from God, our disasters might be from the curses of witches that were hunted at Salem so long ago. Yeah, I think that’s it!
3. Too much influence from OT prophets who declared God’s mind in ancient Israel and Judea. If they can do it, why can’t we do it? ~Alabama Tim
I discern that your dog is adorable!
Personally I am of the “sh*t happens” school of thought when it comes to disasters. They are part of the way the Earth works, and I think the sooner we (as a culture) admit that, then dealing with them will be easier. We pick up the pieces and we pray and we go on. Assigining blame, particularly to God or worse to what somebody thinks is other people’s sins, is a waste of time at best and (IMO) can be downright evil at worst.
A large earthquake is a fascinating, if terrifying, experience! I’m glad I was there, even if I wasn’t at the time. (Los Angeles, in 1994. Pretty big one, though far from the biggest ever.)
@ Muff Potter:What a great prayer! Pray that God would do for the others what you wish He would do for you! The Golden Rule applied to prayer. i will think about that often as I pray. Awesome.
@ Anon 1:I was startled! Yancey is one of my favorite authors which means I am doubly not honoring to God.
@ Lynne T:Lynne T
Do not be cautious. We Americans have our foibles just like every other nation. However, add to that a little “city on the hill” philosophy and we can get downright self centered. The faith is not the politics. There is a good book out there by Ross Douthat-Bad Religion- How We Became a Nation of Heretics that discusses this in-depth.
@ Lynne T:Unfortunately, the disciples of these “prophets” accept what they say without question. They are more numerous that you might believe within the halls of evangelicals. That was one of the reasons we started this blog.
I read the review of Phillip Yancey’s book Prayer (I haven’t read the book, so can’t say whether or not I’d agree with Yancey myself), but wow, that review is just mean. Challies all but says that Yancey isn’t really a Christian. I think the worst line has to be
“A vast quantity of the answers Yancey provides are based on the writing of people whose beliefs would not align with historic Protestantism and hence with Scripture.”
That line is in a paragraph where Challies is complaining that Yancey dares to quote Mother Theresa (that’s apparently a sin or something). I mean seriously, just reread that line – anything that isn’t Reformed Doctrine is unscriptural = not really Christian. So incredibly arrogant.
@ Lynne T:There is a danger when Christians become the ruling class. Somehow, we seem do much better when we are prevailing against a godless culture than ruling what we presume is a “god-fearing” culture.
@ Sophie: I look at Anne Coulter as i look at any self-assured pundit. I laugh and cry at the same time.
@ Through a glass darkly:Great comment! I never thought about this before.
@ jesuswithoutbaggage:Did you know that I am originally from Salem and spent my childhood playing in the museums of that town. I loved the witch example.
You should see some of the Puritan apologists who come onto this blog to try to give them a pass for that incident. I grew up there and I know the history very well. To their example of the great repentance imposed after a few year, I have one thing to say. They may have said they repented but they did not return the properties that were grabbed while people were languishing in jails after being despicably accused of being witches.
The witch trials were used for land acquisition which makes me think that the Puritans were the Ferengi of the New World. Go ahead, get me going on Salem history!
@ Rachel:That was one heckuva earthquake. I have seen one too many disaster movies in which people in cars get sucked into crevices. That totally scares me.
@ Pam:Yancey was my last straw for this self absorbed gatekeeper of “correct” Christianity. Yancey’s book Disappointment With God prepared me for the trial with my daughter’s brain tumor. i read it six weeks before she was diagnosed.
As I walked through some very dark valleys, I would reflect on many things he said in that book. I give that book to many people who are experiencing terrible trials. I have read just about everything he has ever written and I love it all. The Jesus I Never Knew is another one.
There is something very wrong with the heart of a man who does not see the depth of Yancey. Now I am massively irritated. And I am the one who is a bad discernment blogger? Good night!
@ Pam:And then to put Anne Coulter on the recommend list and not put on Yancey. Something is deeply whacked at that site.
dee wrote:
The list of who is recommended and who isn’t is just really weird.
I know we keep politics off this site so I’ll just say that Ann Coulter wouldn’t be welcome at my dinner parties, and I wouldn’t be welcome at hers.
Wow, Tulip is adorable!
My sister, who reads here one occasion, is visiting me. She is a lifelong Presbyterian, thinker, and scholar. Her town in South Carolina is very much a Southern Baptist stronghold (sometimes the youth of her church have been told by Baptist schoolmates that they are going to hell.) We were discussing the deterioration of the South Baptist denomination. Our grandmother was a lifelong Baptist who volunteered for a Billy Graham crusade from her nursing home. She mentioned a very Baptist neighbor of hers who has treated her family quite shabbily.
We agreed that “When you are so busy being a Baptist that you don’t behave like a decent human being you are missing the effing point.” For Baptist read Reformed or Evangelical or Complementarian or (for that matter) Presbyterian or Catholic….
@ Lynne T:
Lynne T,
I believe you are right on the money here.
I’d love to here Anon1’s take on this as he’s studied the Puritans and American history quite a bit.
But from my as yet limited understanding, I believe you are absolutely right.
I always thought discernment was a good thing…it means to really think about something and discuss it, to decide what you think about it. I think that pastors should ENCOURAGE their people to discuss both sides of an issue and should not be afraid of someone with a different opinion. As for Ann Coulter…I don’t care for her in terms of her sarcasm, but I do think she is correct on a lot of things politically. So I don’t look at her through the “Christian” lens, but rather a political one. If a pastor is afraid of what other Christians believe…what is HE afraid of? Discernment?
I get the sense that many Christians are less charitable now than even 60-70 years ago. I say this because many wish they could return to the 50’s when supposedly gender roles were strictly in place. I mean I get the sense that even then sinners were received and even loved. But now… It’s hard to find a place where the teaching is orthodox and love for the sinner is present as well. Burleson is right. Their supposed right doctrine trumps love. Who remembers learning about the half way covenant in school? Those Puritans finally went so far with their doctrine they had to invent something like the half way covenant just to keep members in the church. Eventually, I think it led some of them to Unitarianism. This stuff is soul killing.
@ Phoenix:Amen.
I hate superiority when it comes to the things of God. Somehow, I think it misses the entire point. (We are the people that God loves and respects the most-kind of like kids who say Mom loves me best).
Tulip is the prettiest of our 3 rescue pugs. We think the poor thing was hounded by little children who did not know boundaries. She was skittish for awhile but she is mellowing out quite nicely and is beginning to enjoy being held and patted. She really loves her two pug sisters and enjoys never being alone. She is a bit of a clown as the picture above indicates.
dee wrote:
I couldn’t agree more Dee, I flinched when I saw Yancey’s name on that list. Maybe they feel his honesty is not honouring to the gospel, or his compassion for the lost (& the found come to that), maybe his ability to see all races as made in the image of God, or the fact that he sees quite clearly that there are people outside of reformed circles who have genuine experiences with God & have something vital to add to the discussion…maybe his virtues are vices (to them) but they are idiots to discount him. I just found out that Brennan Manning died yesterday & I am quite sure that both he & Yancy will be found in Christ on judegement day. RIP Brennan.
And so lovely to see Tulip, who put a huge smile on my face, she is adorable. 90% at least of the time I am on here I have at least one dog curled up next to me 🙂
@ justabeliever:There is a reason that I do not go down the political path on this blog. I have strong political opinions but politics ends up alienating people. Coulter is one of those alienating people.
There are two people that I like in politics. Kirsten Powers is a Democrat and is level headed and kind. I like to listen to her and do not find myself getting mad even if I disagree with her. Charles Krauthammer does a good job from the conservative side of things. Did you know that he is a quadriplegic after an accident in his 20s? He is an MD who switched his interest to psychiatry. He never defaults to his profound disability for sympathy during a debate and continues to state his perspective in a controlled manner.
Now, I know each of these individuals have problems. However, I am looking at them from a style angle of things. Coulter, on the other hand, seems to enjoy stirring the pot.
I am frankly shocked that Coulter gets a “God honoring” and Yancey gets a “not honoring”. The American Christian world is whacky.
And on the whole ‘disasters are punishments’ thing, I know I’ve ranted on this before, and it’s almost midnight and I’m tired, but that stuff just pisses me off. Once upon a time we didn’t know all that much about natural hazards, and people often found out that a place was flood/fire/tornado/earthquake prone when an event happened. Hell, Pompeii shows that even volcanoes’ dangers are sometimes ‘discovered’ when something happens. And sure, back then, searching for a reason why these things happen, it was God’s (or the gods’) punishment for something or other that was normally given as the reason. Then we started seeing it as ‘the uncontrollability of Mother Nature’ – there wasn’t a rhyme or reason, it was the whim of nature. Now we have lots of knowledge about natural hazards, where they happen, and why. And we know that the reason there are tornadoes in Minnesota and not in Nevada is because Minnesota is ranked 22 of US states prone to tornadoes while Nevada is ranked 50th. A tornado hit Minneapolis because Minneapolis has a known tornado risk. They don’t hit Las Vegas because Nevada has never recorded a tornado of any size worth recording. Same thing with Katrina and New Orleans – a big hurricane hit there because it’s a very high-risk area. And to be equal opportunity, the Black Saturday bushfires that happened here four years ago and that one crackpot Christian leader here blamed on Victoria formally legalising abortion, was on a day that was the highest ever fire risk recorded in this country. (I’m not actually going to touch on the sheer callous evil of exploiting an event that killed 173 people – and 1500+ in New Orleans – to advance a theological agenda, I’m just going to stick to talking about hazards and risk) There’s a scale they use out of 100 called the McArthur Forest Fire Danger Index, which used the black friday fires of 1939 (also in Victoria, 70+ killed) as the ‘100’-level conditions – on Black Saturday the scale reached over 200. Add to that days of temperatures over 40 celcius (110 fahrenheit), 10 years of drought, months of almost no rain at all and the conditions were unprecedented. Of course, potential doesn’t guarantee it’s going to happen, but the risks were overwhelming. And, as with the other two examples, Victoria is incredibly prone to fires, and is one of, if not the most fire-prone region on earth, so it wasn’t like fires happening in Victoria were unusual in and of themselves.
But of course, silly me, I’m just using scientific knowledge of geological and meteorological processes, so what would I know?
@ Pam:
And that’s how much I write when I’m tired and just want to say something quickly before going to bed.
I’ll now get off my soapbox and hit the sack.
dee wrote:
I wish you would!!! Maybe? Sometime?
(And Miss Tulip is just plum adorable!!)
@ Pam:
That quote is beyond arrogant. It is the PRESUMPTION that historic protestanism is THE plumbline. You’d think that Jesus walked the earth in the 14th and 15th centuries and revealed all Truth to the Reformers. Or maybe those historic figures that so many follow are the real Jesus?
@ Bridget:This is a great comment! Well stated. It deserves a post of its own.
That it was! But trust me when I say that Hollywood doesn’t get this right; for one, there were no gaping crevices. Secondly, in the movie Earthquake they had people going into an underground parking garage after the quake! Um, no, those still make me nervous to this day. Right afterwards I couldn’t even be in a closed room in our house, for weeks! Hello claustrophobia.
It’s a remarkably weird feeling having the ground under your feet move.
b>dee wrote:
@ Kindakrunchy:
Second this!
dee wrote:
(I believe he is a paraplegic, not a quadriplegic.)
“Through an empty glass ‘very’ ‘very’ darkly?”
Wartburg,
Excuse me,
Through a glass darkly wrote: “These words are from the US Marine Corps’ hymn: “If the Army and the Navy Ever look on Heaven’s scenes;They will find the streets are guarded By United States Marines.”
Sometimes I don’t know whether to laugh or cry…”
@ Through a glass darkly
*
The “Marines’ Hymn” is the official hymn of the United States Marine Corps. It is the oldest official song in the United States military.
These are it’s words:
The Marines’ Hymn (1942)
From the Halls of Montezuma,
To the shores of Tripoli;
We fight our country’s battles
In the air, on land, and sea;
First to fight for right and freedom
And to keep our honor clean:
We are proud to claim the title
Of United States Marine.
Our flag’s unfurled to every breeze
From dawn to setting sun;
We have fought in every clime and place
Where we could take a gun;
In the snow of far-off Northern lands
And in sunny tropic scenes;
You will find us always on the job
The United States Marines.
Here’s health to you and to our Corps
Which we are proud to serve;
In many a strife we’ve fought for life
And never lost our nerve;
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven’s scenes;
They will find the streets are guarded
By United States Marines.
*
“The U.S. Marine Corps is the United States’ military band of brothers dedicated to war fighting. The proud Brotherhood of Marines is guided by principles, values, virtues, love of country, and its Warrior Culture. This brotherhood of American Patriots has no song. Instead, Marine Warriors have a hymn. When The Marines’ Hymn is played, United States Marines stand at attention. They silently show their pride in their fellow Marines, their Corps, their Country, their heritage, and their hymn. The Marines’ Hymn is a tribute to Warriors. Marine Warriors stormed fortress Derna, raised the American flag, and gave us “the shores of Tripoli.” Marines fought their way into the castle at Chapultepec and gave us the “halls of Montezuma.” Marines exist for the purpose of war fighting. Fighting is their role in life. They “fight for right and freedom” and “to keep our honor clean.” They fight “in the air, on land, and sea.” The Marine Corps is Valhalla for Warriors. U.S. Marines need no song. They have a hymn…
The Marines’ Hymn has remained a revered icon of the United States Marine Corps for almost 200 years….In 1929 The Marines’ Hymn became the official hymn of the Corps.”
–History of The Marines’ Hymn: (excerpt from Warrior Culture of the U.S. Marines, Copyright 2001 Marion F. Sturkey)
*
Q: Wartburg, is someone making sport of the Marine Corps’ hymn?
—-> When these Men & Women represented by this hymn serve and die, to make us free?
Good Night!
I am reminded of the words of the follow hymn:
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.
I have seen Him in the watch fires of a hundred circling camps
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps;
His day is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His day is marching on.
I have read a fiery Gospel writ in burnished rows of steel;
“As ye deal with My contemners, so with you My grace shall deal”;
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with His heel,
Since God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Since God is marching on.
He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment seat;
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet;
Our God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Our God is marching on.
In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us live to make men free;
[originally …let us die to make men free]
While God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! While God is marching on.
He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
He is wisdom to the mighty, He is honor to the brave;
So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of wrong His slave,
Our God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Our God is marching on…
Discernment is as discernment does?
Semper Fi
…His truth is marching on!
Glory!
Sopwith
—
@ Through a glass darkly:
Did you know that his actual disability is a matter of speculation? He is not definitively clearing it up which I find intriguing. He is a man who does not want to focus on his disability. Apparently he said that it is far better to be paralyzed from the neck down than from the neck up.
If you watch him carefully, you will see that he does not move his arms in a regular fashion. It is said that he has some limited writing ability that he achieved after 3 years of practice. So, after searching for about 20 minutes I give up.
@ Sopwith:
I have no beef with the service and sacrifice of the American military. However, I doubt God needs the aid of the US Marine Corps. The sacrifice of Jesus was enough, no?
@ dee:
After I posted that comment, I tried to do some research myself, and you are right – there is not a lot out there. I had not come across the “paralyzed from the neck down vs. neck up” comment, but it’s pretty good! Might come in handy sometime.
Dee – I agree that Coulter does NOT honor God by her attitude. I am impressed that Krauthammer is disabled…good for him to keep up and use his incredible intellect despite his problems. It’s hard, though, to sometimes keep politics outside of the religious tone….abortion, for example, a hill I would die on. But I respect your efforts to keep this train on the spiritual track for the sake of making everyone emphasis the MAIN thing.. the state of the church today, and what needs to be done to improve it. Personally, though, I think that women like Michelle Malkin and others represent conservatism in a more favorable light than Coulter. That girl, though smart, does herself a disservice as her attitude keeps you from wanting to see her point.
I guess it’s Tulip’s sweet face above that draws me back to this thread despite getting bent out of shape a bit late last evening!
Rock on, Tulip! 🙂
I am shocked by the criticism of Yancey, actually. Thank goodness I’ve been out of the loop of the YRR Wars for several years now because I didn’t realize Yancey was in their sights.
I’ve had his books recommended and discussed by several PCA pastors (granted this was 10 years ago before the totalitarian Calvinista thought police came to such prominence) and Yancey’s writings on a variety of topics have always been comforting to me.
What, pray tell, is the supposed “issue” with Philip Yancey?
As for Ann Coulter (and I write this mostly to explain to non-American TWWers should you have any interest – and God bless you, you really shouldn’t) she is a CONSERVATIVE RIGHT-WING REPUBLICAN U.S. POLITICAL COMMENTATOR.
About 7 or 8 years ago it was reported in the mediat that she attends Redeemer Pres in NYC (Tim Keller’s church) but she is in no way, shape, or form a minister, theologian, or Christian commentator. SHE IS A POLITICAL PUNDIT. She discusses evangelical Christianity insofar as evangelicals are a primary voting bloc of the Republican party, that’s it.
Her schtick since the 1990’s when she became prominent through an organization called the Independent Women’s Forum has been her aggressiveness and in-your-face punditry, relentlessly attacking her ideological opponents.
She’s made quite the career out of this $$$$$$$.
So again, I ask, why on Earth would a celebrity political pundit be recommended as a “must-read” over a serious Christian thinker like a Philip Yancey?*
*This is mostly a rhetorical question, I know the answer and frankly it makes me ill, i.e. American evangelicalism has largely turned into a political movement with not much else on offer – like, say, Jesus?
Through a glass darkly wrote:
Oh, you should ask Mikey Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation that question, actually.
There are a lot of evangelicals in the U.S. military who strongly believe they are first and foremost to be “God’s evangelizing warriors” as opposed to stuff like, you know, being soldiers taking their oath to uphold the Constitution seriously. 🙁
@ Rafiki: Yes.
How does that differ from Reading the Omens in a sacrificed sheep liver?
No Fulfillment of such-and-such End Time Prophecy?
(And if they added Evolution, they’d have a New Trinity.)
I heard the same claims — pretty much word-for-word — on Christianese AM radio in the 1970s; the claimants sounded at least 70. If said claimants were Lotz’s age back then and still alive they would now be over 100.
Rafiki wrote:
After all, there are End Time Prophecies to Fulfill…
Rafiki wrote:
After all, there are End Time Prophecies to Fulfill…
Hester wrote:
“Calvinist Complementarian” as in “God Hath Predestined Male Supremacy”?
Robin wrote:
Purity of Ideology.
Just like classic Communists.
@ Rafiki: The Gatekeepers is now available on YouTube, just in case anyone’s interested…
Sopwith wrote:
Sopy,
I don’t think anybody here is making light of the men and women who serve our Nation in the Corps. What myself and others do resent is how their honor and devotion to duty is cynically used by politicians and the captains of industry to further their own aims of profit and aggrandizement.
Dwight Eisenhower was one of the finest warriors this country has ever produced and he warned of this very thing in his 1961 farewell speech to the Congress and the Nation.
@ numo:
I’ll second that.
@ Muff Potter
Muff, I understand what you are saying, anI thank you for the clarification, yet it simply leaves a bad taste in my mouth for someone from another country referring in questionable manner a hymn that is very much a part of our national pride. The Corp is the Corp, regardless of how or where it is utilized.
@ numo:
May I just mention again (ad nauseum) how AMAZING this documentary was? 🙂
Sopwith wrote:
?
I was commenting on Lynne T (from Australia’s) post.
I apologize that I touched a nerve and caused you (or others who read on without comment) pain or offense.
@ Lynne T.:
I’m an American and I’ve never understood the America-as-new-Israel thing. It doesn’t have an ounce of theological backing no matter which way you look at it so I’m not sure how any ministers back in the day ever bought it to begin with. Probably they bought it for distinctly non-theological reasons…
@ Through a glass darkly: I am grateful for the Corps and for those who served/have served in it, but have never been able to stomach that song.
sorry if that offends, but I believe it’s possible to be patriotic without giving carte blanche to certain ideas held dear in the services.
(fwiw, my dad served in WWII, Korea and Vietnam as a merchant ship captain taking supplies and medical equipment to the services – in WWII, he was an officer on a Liberty ship that went to Russian ports on the Arctic Circle. Very few of the men who went on those runs survived… So it’s not as if I feel antipathy toward people in the service.)
@ numo: should read “officer on Liberty ships” and then merchant captain, not captain during WWII.
My allergies are making me groggy today. Lots of gorgeous flowers and budding trees; also tons of pollen!
Hi guys,
Re the “city on a hill” thing and Lynne T’s post, we (meaning countries of the earth) have all been guilty of this at some point in our history. Even today there are people in the UK who view the UK in the same way and being punished because of our godlessness. In the 19th C we probably conflated the British Empire (imperialism, or in its worst form, land grabbing off native people) with “the white man’s burden” and spreading the Gospel. Not that some good things didn’t come from it – but of course St Peter’s favourite game wasn’t cricket, and the sun did set on the empire where the sun was never supposed to set!
And yet of course the legacy of the gospel remained long after we learned that (funnily enough) other people didn’t like being ruled from London and went home. God may have used the British Empire or “Pax Britannica” for His purposes, but that’s not the same thing as Britain being a Christian form of Israel.
The Russians possibly saw themselves, and some probably do still, in similar terms, as a great Christian nation surrounded by either heretics or pagans.
Pam’s words are of course quite correct. As C S Lewis pointed out in the first chapter of The Problem of Pain, for free will to be operative (as opposed to a clockwork universe) there must be freedom for things to go either way, even (if I remember his argument correctly) in natural processes. This applies even more so to human actions, where we have the theological consequences of the Fall to deal with. The current financial crisis for example seems to be more to do with the greed and culpability of people rather than to any hidden mysterious reason. No discernment needed there, surely?
That is not to say that God cannot use these things for his purposes – sometimes people are drawn to Him in the midst of difficulty or even tragedy. As Lewis said (his words, not mine) “pain is God’s megaphone to the world”. At the same time he stressed that it was not for humans to presume to take a place as God’s scourge, and elsewhere he noted the similar tendency among people to try to “discern” God’s purpose in events and history, a tendency he called “Historicism” (see his essay of the same title).
BTW I thought Ann Coulter was primarily a right-wing (and very strident) commentator, not a religious writer – so her presence on the Discerning Reader seems a bit strange.
Hester, you’re right, the identification of one country as somehow more special in God’s purposes (still less as a new Israel) does have no theological backing. From Romans 13 it seems that all political authority is in its basic form from God, whether run by pagan Romans or Christian Americans.
Max Lucado x1
Phillip Yancey x2
Rick Warren x3
Dallas Willard x1
Roger Olson x1
They’re not alone. Ruth Haley Barton, Brennan Manning and Beth Moore also received Discerning Reader’s stamp of disapproval.
Beakerj, thanks for the news about Brennan Manning’s passing. I had the privilege of seeing him speak in person at a church in Fairfax, VA in 1986. I found his talks to be very powerful. Some years later, his best-known book, The Ragamuffin Gospel, helped bring me back into church after I left for several years.
@ Kolya:She claims to be a Christian and usually wears a cross. You are correct, she is primarily a religious writer. It is upsetting to me to see her listed as a “recommend” and Yancey and the others “not recommended.” In fact, I am so disturbed by this that in about a week or so, I plan to write a post about my concerns.
It’s odd how some thing strike me. I have not been able to get this out of my head since I saw it and I think it says a whole lot about the marginalization of Christians who do not tow the line-both theologically and politically. Strange thing about this all- some people used to view me as too conservative.
Regarding “American Exceptionalism,” “God’s chosen nation” and evangelicals:
Seems that the ideas of American Christian Reconstructionists and Dominionists (for example, God ordained America as a special “Christian nation”), once considered seriously fringe, have entered into the evangelical mainstream (such as hagiographic “Christian” U.S. histories, which tend to be marketed to homeschoolers).
I think it’s an American evangelical backlash to multiculturalism plain and simple.
I also think that the concept of being “God’s chosen nation” is a feature of political nationalism in a lot of places.
In addition to Russia as pointed out by Kolya, I am pretty sure ultra-nationalistic Serbs feel they are/were “God’s chosen” who were an (Orthodox) Christian bulwark of sorts in the Balkans.
Same goes for the Afrikaaner minority who ruled apartheid-era South Africa.
And as Kolya stated, there is NO theological backing for any of this essentially political nonsense.
Kolya wrote:
Yes, and she said the following:
“God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, ‘Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It’s yours.’”—Hannity & Colmes, 6/20/01
Found at http://geochristian.wordpress.com/2010/11/26/did-ann-coulter-really-say-earth-is-yours-take-it-rape-it-its-yours/, and the quote is genuine, I’ve seen her say it on video. There is also an article by her at http://townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/2000/10/12/oil_good;_democrats_bad/page/full/.
Whatever you think about environmentalism, and even acknowledging that she is a polemicist who thrives on outrageous claims, but this is completely sick. Another one to give Christians a bad name.
dee wrote:
The witch trials were a terrible travesty, but I did not know the victims’ properties were not returned. Thanks! ~Alabama Tim
Lovely. I wonder what sins these “boys” will attribute to the hurricane that destroyed my family home in ’08. As far as I am aware my hometown was fairly innocent but who knows what sins they can sniff out. There is an easy formula to understanding these men and women: believe exactly as they believe or you are a heretic. I would consider it an honor to be on their not recommended list. 🙂
@ gus:
Rape the earth? How the heck did she get that out of the Bible?!?!
I bet those same fundies who will say that God was punishing New England for gay marriage would fall strangely silent if a Category 5 hurricane mowed over Pensacola (home of Pensacola Christian College and Abeka Book). Which is actually well within the realm of meteorological possibility so they’d better keep their non-response up to date.
If John Piper, Al Mohler et al had a tiny scrap of discernment they wouldn’t say the things they say and do the things they do. It’s not hard to see that many of their behaviours are not Christ-like. Thus, they have pretty poor discernment skills if they can’t determine what’s Christlike and what isn’t. Definitely on the ‘Not Recommended’ list IMO.
After all: ye shall know them by their fruit, as the verse goes.
Re Ms Coulter, I believe she became (in)famous for her splatter-gun approach to making off-the-cuff comments. I do also remember that when she suffered a journalistic setback in her career (can’t remember which paper exactly), she asked if it was because she had upset too many left-wing people, and her boss told her that many of the complaints came from conservatives.
By her own account Ms Coulter is not objective and likes to stir the pot. That may be OK for a political columnist or shock jock, but I am not convinced it makes for edifying reading of the sort that the “Discerning Reader” would like to promote?
@ Kolya: She is.
@ Kolya: Meant to say that your characterization of her is correct.
I do believe that Dee is underlining the absurdity of the “stats” on that site…
@ Rafiki: Again – yes.
The “whitewashing,” though, has been going on for far longer outside of homeschooling circles. In my 5th and 6th grad history texts (back in the late 60s), I read relatively benign descriptions of slavery, of land theft/genocide committed by white people against Native Americans, of native peoples in Latin America who were forcibly converted (either as slaves or captives), etc.
The books made this all seem so very nice and unbloody. I’d already read a fair amount (anything I could get my hands on) about Native American history and culture, so I knew the books were full of lies; the Civil Rights movement was ever-present at the time, so I also knew (however distantly, being a rural child in the North) that the books lied about black people and how they were being treated at that very moment.
Didn’t find out about how we stole Hawaii from its rightful monarch and parliament until much, much later, though.
While I absolutely oppose all the efforts being made by reconstructionist/dominionist types to rewrite history (especially on such a massive scale!), it’s certainly not the 1st time that’s been done, nor will it be the last,…
@ Hester: “subdue it.” “Dominion.”
@ Kolya: British Israelites, anyone? cf. William Blake’s famous poem, Jerusalem.
The closing verse says
@ Rafiki: I haven’t seen it yet, and need to – but don’t really <i.want to, many ore than I truly want to watch Five Broken Cameras (available on Hulu.com and Netflix streaming -probably Amazon.com as well – here in the US).
@ jesuswithoutbaggage:They weren’t returned because some of the upstanding Puritans now owned the valuable land. It’s just business you know and God gets the tithe.
@ Eagle:
It sounds like you don’t like Randy Alcorn much. Could you expound upon this? I read and enjoyed his novels, “Heaven,” and “Money, Posessions, and Eternity” about five years ago, but this was before I left my patriarchal, FIC church. If I were to reread his non-fiction, my views might be different now.
@ gus:Now, now, she got a “recommend” from Discerning Reader.Max Lucado, however, is NOT recommended. You (and I) are simply not discerning.
@ numo:Darn straight I am. Dee is one unhappy camper about some of this stuff and i plan to talk about it in the weeks to come.
@ Mandy: Perhaps there was a hidden egalitarian in your town or a stay at home dad? I know, a woman gave an out of town man road directions “with authority.”
@ Hester:Same place that John Piper found that women should not be muscular. You know how Chinese restaurants have a special menu for those in the know? I have often wonder if these folks have a “special” Bible for the in crowd.
dee wrote:
Head banging firmly against wall.
I mean, I don’t feel strongly one way or the other about Max Lucado (of the NOT RECOMMENDED authors listed above I have enjoyed Yancey the most).
10 years ago someone like Max Lucado was a stalwart of contemporary Christian writing. Everyone, regardless of denomination, could read the guy or hear him speaking. He pretty much came from a standard, orthodox Christian perspective. He certainly wasn’t some heretic!
I mean, NOT RECOMMENDING Max Lucado is like condemning “Veggie Tales” or Michael W. Smith for crying out loud.
So (as with Philip Yancey) I ask again: WHAT is so horrible about these very mainstream authors?!
PP wrote:
I disagree. Without revealing specifics, I am smack in the middle of Neo-Reformed country, and by virtue of my current life situation, I interact on a daily basis with many Neo-Reformed individuals, from young would-be pastors up to the highest echelons.
I have never, ever, in my 24 years of being a Christian, experienced such factionalism as I experience among the Neo-Reformed, typically characterized by (among other things) an aggressive refusal to honestly and sincerely interact with divergent viewpoints and a condescending attitude and tone towards non-Neo-Reformed individuals, materials, etc.
I come from a Baptist and E-Free context, and I have always been exposed to a diverse mix of theology: covenant theology, dispensationalism, Calvinism, Arminianism, Charismatic, Cessationist. Always within the framework of respect and acknowledgement of the greater unity within the Body of Christ. Needless to say, my current context is a shock to my (spiritual) system.
One anecdote: I came to faith in a dispensational context and although I don’t currently consider myself a dispensationlist, I have many close friends and spiritual family members who do hold to this framework. One day I was chatting with some Neo-Reformed individuals in a casual context and the issue of eschatology came up. One of them condescendingly mentioned how Dispensationalists should be put on probation in terms of their status as Christians and their mental acuity should be checked, ostensibly because it would require a very low IQ to “fall for” the theology of dispensationalism. I was shocked to hear this, but I was even more shocked when the other 4 individuals present laughed instead of rebuking their sinful brother.
numo wrote:
Numo, this made me giggle because it made me think of the classic “Portlandia” sketch where some over eager crafters implore people to simply “put a bird on it!”
🙂
@ Rafiki: 1st season, 1st show, opening sketch, no less!
Mr.H wrote:
🙁
But by all means, stay far far away from reading any dispensationalist theologian in an effort to gain understanding. Be discerning. *
*Sarcasm alert. What you posted is intellectually lazy, dishonest, and sad. 🙁
numo,
I have been a William Blake fan for many years.
Hi Numo. Yes, British Israelites and William Blake! The first largely (I think) wishful thinking and a very strained reconstruction of the Bible, and history, and the second a very strange poet who claimed to speak with angels and had rather Gnostic ideas. I love “Jerusalem” as a song, but really the theology behind it is pretty wacky. As a patriotic song it’s OK, but I would really question it’s solidity as a hymn. I think since I’ve been a Christian I have sung it once in an evangelical church, and that probably because it was (if I remember correctly) Remembrance Sunday (commemoration of the war dead).
@ numo:
Love me some “Library Lady” from the S1 “Hide and Seek” episode:
“It’s kind of a house and it’s kind of falling apart. I think that describes your life right now, honey.”
🙂
BTW does anyone hear from homeschooling days or Christian education days know anything about Accelerated Christian Education? It’s started to come over to the UK in some “faith schools”. I’d be mainly interested in hearing if anyone has had any experience of it. Sorry this is off topic.
@ Rafiki: Oops – Episode *tow.*
I just watched it and was giggling at the “subdue” part… ; )
@ Rafiki: I just watched their 1st “Woman & Woman First” sketch and am really taken with “it’s a series” and “sand” (in the cupcakes).
It took me a while tow arm up to Fred & Carrie’s sense of humor, but now…!
@ Kolya: Be thankful that you don’t have to sing it at Womens’ Institute meetings! 😉
@ numo: to warm up to
I can’t type tonight for beans.
@ Kolya: I like some of Blake’s poems but am creeped out by his strange visions and ideas… kind of like Christopher Smart, but with strange illustrations. (I love Smart’s poem about his cat, though.)
The one major problem with American Christianity is it’s inability to discern what is the true religion and what is just civil religion.
“Ever look On Heaven’s Scenes?”
hmmm…
Through a glass darkly wrote:
What the Sam Hill? Don’t you Wartburg Watch commenters have enough troubles? Now you have to take on the Marines?
(sadface)
The Marines’ Hymn has been sung and played wherever U.S. Marines have landed, and today is recognized as one of the foremost military service songs.
hmmm…
Every campaign the Marines have taken part in gives birth to an unofficial verse. So it is fitting the official story should continue to here:
“If the Army and the Navy Ever look on Heaven’s scenes…
They will find the streets are guarded By United States Marines.”
What?
Ahem!
Every good Marine knows that when ascending to Heaven, one reports to St. Pete. So it is understandable that when ever you look upon Heaven’s scenes, you will find that the streets are guarded by the United States Marines. Simply put, this is how these soldiers are trained. And the better angels prevail, how each one conducts themselves in battle.
*
When King David spoke of the Messiah, he said:
The LORD said to my Lord, Sit you at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of your strength out of Zion: rule you in the middle of your enemies. Your people shall be willing in the day of your power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: you have the dew of your youth. The LORD has sworn, and will not repent, You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. The Lord at your right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.
Jesus said: “…hereafter shall you see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven…”
*
“The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.”
– G.K. Chesterton
Get down ‘trooper’ and knock out 10…
(grin)
hahahahahaha
Sopy
—
@ Through a glass darkly:
I’m kind of with you on this one. That verse is pretty presumptuous. And hyperbolic. But many of those songs are. I guess they serve a motivational purpose, but I, too, bristle a little at that kind of exaggeration.
@ Muff Potter:
Muff,
Excellent post. Word.
@ Sopwith:
Sopy,
Through a Glass Darkly apologized. A simple “I forgive you” would have sufficed.
Not my biz…just saying.
Pam wrote:
And Challies has the chutzpah to go off on so-called “discernment bloggers,” when he himself is a critic of other Christians. *rolls eyes* Jesus save us from your professional followers!
Eagle,
You have hit the nail on the head with the efree denomination. I think the tide turned around 2006 and most people read and accepted the readings of St. Piper the Puritain. There were some of us who walked away and painfully left a community behind because the pain of staying was too great.
Argo, surely you know that’s never how the internet usually works. Apologies can’t simply be accepted on the internet, there has to be some kind of victory dance or explanation.
Blake is all right but Wallace Stevens is more fun. 🙂
I’ve generally enjoyed Yancey as both an Arminian and a Calvinist. He’s not writing treatises on some topic like the imputation of Adam’s sin so, surely, we can recognize that and appreciate what Yancey does, which is read widely and from interesting writers. Yancey likes Russian novelists and the writings of John Donne. Awesome, we share those affections. 🙂
Considering how many neo-Calvinists seem to go gaga over Chesterton bagging on Yancey seems kinda superfluous.
@ WenatcheeTheHatchet: Maybe, but he wasn’t a fount of British Israelitism! 😉
Eagle wrote:
Well, Alcorn wasn’t pushed at our church. Vision Forum, Voddie Bauchum, Above Rubies magazine, and Michael Pearl were the biggies…with a bit of Doug Wilson, too. But I agree, if these types of people are promoting his books, it makes me a bit leary.
I enjoyed Alcorn’s book “Heaven.” At the time, I was suffering from a chronic illness (mostly under control now) and doubted I’d ever be able to enjoy many of my hobbies again. That book gave me hope and comfort that even if I never recovered enough in this life, I would have plenty of chances to do those things again in my new body.
I suspect “Money, Possessions, and Eternity” wouldn’t have gone over so well with many in the FIC. There was an unusually high percentage of high income families there, several of which had just built custom 4-6,000 sq ft homes. I don’t think giving away most of their income went along with the 200 year visions that Vision Forum encouraged the men to have. And the rest of the families didn’t have much to spare with their large families.
The thing about the book that bothered me the most at the time (and still does) is Alcorn’s presumption that if a person lives very modestly and gives most of their income away, God will somehow guarantee to be their pension plan and disability insurance. (If I am remembering incorrectly and he doesn’t assume this, please let me know. It’s been aout five years, so I could be mistaken.) I mentioned it to Mr. Hoppy tonight and his reply was that maybe God is providing in advance and expects people to save a bunch wisely, not to assume he will automically send it later when they need it.
Does the passing of Brennan Manning not get mentioned here or is that outside the scope of TWW or did I just miss an earlier reference?
@ Eagle:
Eagle, I’ve read McKnight’s “village green” piece previously, and I think the following quote, from a reformed theologian to McKnight, bears repeating:
I recently wrote to a friend of mine, a Reformed theologian, and described what is the essence of this post and this is what he wrote back:
The problem, as I see it is these, whom you are calling neoreformed, are to me simply the old fundamentalists in nicer clothes with better vocabularies. They are just as mean-spirited, just as graceless, and just as exclusive. I believe that the fundamentalism of my youth was harmful to the gospel.
I believe that anyone who refuses to come out of his “room” (confessional church) and into the hall of “mere Christianity”, to use Lewis’s term, is doomed to a narrow and problematic exegesis of the text. Who is going to tell us that we are wrong if we only stay in our room and speak to people who agree with us all the time?
Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/jesuscreed/2009/02/who-are-the-neoreformed.html#ixzz2QPg4jFhl
@ WTH
I am happy to talk about Brennan Manning any time you like. His books on the grace of God were a light to me in a very dark place.
May he now be drinking deeply of the Love he was such a channel of to others
@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:
It was mentioned in the comments here @ Beakerj: and here @ singleman:
I suspect not all who read here were familiar with him. I had heard of him, but not yet read any of his books. I echo Lynne T’s sentiment:
Argo wrote:
…apologized? Yes, they did.
hmmm…
keep an open mind.
….coffee and a pastry, perhaps?
A fairly reasonable explanation was provided for the reasoning behind the verse.
…leave it to that?
Sincerely, I was not the object of this individual’s ‘abusif’. If i recall correctly, The U.S. Marine Corps received this privileged complement.
Sopy
—
Kolya wrote:
Yup, Kols, a couple of agreements there. Firstly, somebody we know up here is infatuated with British Israelism, and in her trumpeting of it she bears all the hallmarks of the classic “conspiracy theory” devotee. Loosely speaking, she thinks she knows something important that other people don’t. Ironically, as far as we can tell, she’s not even a christian believer!
And secondly, Jerusalem… there’s a reason people refer to Parry’s Jerusalem more often than to Blake’s Jerusalem. Never have such questionable lyrics been graced with such a fabulous melody.
A better hymn that fits the same tune is “Before the throne of God above”. The trouble is that nothing else quite fits, because Parry wrote it specifically for Jerusalem, albeit with misgivings about the jingoistic purpose for which he had been asked to do so – namely to boost flagging national morale during the first world war.
Interestingly – I rather like this bit – the thing that stopped Parry from withdrawing the piece from public use was the fact that the Suffragette Movement asked him if they could use it. He responded:
Eagle wrote:
One word: THOUGHTCRIME.
WAR IS PEACE!
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY!
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH!
YANCEY IS GOLDSTEIN!
numo wrote:
Ah, yes. The coup by haole descendants of Puritan Missionaries. A couple generations for Predestination to become Manifest Destiny and sugar plantations to replace souls saved.
numo wrote:
Sounds like the Brit version of the American Puritans’ “Shining City on a Hill”.
And British Israelism originated in Victorian England, along with several other shall we say “offbeat” beliefs and belief systems. When the sun never set on the Superpower of the British Empire, obvious proof of God’s favor. As Chesterton (a Victorian himself) put it, “The Victorians thought history ended well — because it ended with the Victorians.”
Mr.H wrote:
”
I hear this sort of thing all the time from YRR since I am around them all the time, too. One reason you hear it is they are mimicing one of their leaders, Al Mohler, from a Gospel Coalition video where he says something to the effect that those who are not New Calvinists just do not have the mental processes to understand it.
That is why saying something like that is not sin and hurtful to brothers/sisters since it is their truth.
I have always thought Mohler should have the integrity to say the same things during his seminary brag report at the SBC annual convention as he did on that GC video about NC being the only place to be if you want to see the nations rejoice for Christ.
But sadly, he does have the integrity to say it directly to the people who pay his salary.
Anon 1 wrote:
Oops, He does NOT have the intergrity to say it directly to the people who pay his salary.
Mandy wrote:
Oh, if they need some, they’ll find some. Just as the NKVD and KGB never had a problem finding evidence against capitalist spies and dissidents.
It’s an old, old tradition. I have a copy of the underground comics version of the Malleus Malefacarium within arms’ reach as I type this, and Witchfinders, like all sin-sniffers, were very creative in using their sniffers. Monty Python’s “If she floats like a duck, then she’s a Witch” is NOT an exaggeration.
@ Anon 1:
It is interesting to note that RC Sproul says exactly the opposite in his book “Defending The Faith”- that intellegence has nothing to do with who knows the truth and who does not (in this context, “the truth” is the existence of God- he’s not talking about Reformed theology). He lists brilliant people on both sides and points out that it was not lack of intellegence that kept the non-Christians like Nitzche away from the faith.
[[Mod Edit]]
Comment removed due to allegations against someone without any backup.
Jeff S wrote:
Jeff, Sorry to have to mention this but I am not sure I understand where you are going with this.
Wouldn’t Sproul believe it was GOD who kept folks away from faith since He is controlling every molecule and Sproul believes in election from that stand point: God has already decided who will be saved and who won’t?
Eagle, thanks for those BeliefNet posts, I found them interesting.
Numo and Nick Bulbeck, thanks for your comments. I agree Numo that Blake’s visions were odd to say the least. I used to work with an older chap who was very literary and we often debated whether Blake really suffered from some form of – how can I say it? – delusion?
Nick, that’s interesting what you say about the local British Israelite fan. It reminds me also of another chap who wrote a book not so long ago in which some chapters seemed to lean on the historicity of Geoffrey of Monmouth’s History of Britain, a rather strange text from the Middle Ages whose historicity (eg King Arthur besieging Rome, for example) seems fanciful at best.
Anon 1 wrote:
“You obviously do not have a Rational Mind. If you had a Rational Mind, you would agree completely with Me.” — Ayn Rand
Hmm–totally agree that these authors cannot know the mind of God and know these tragedies are His judgement.
On the other hand, neither can we know that they were not.
And for the record re the Minnesota tornado, long before these noble guys made any pronouncements, many of those good ELCA folks voting against the ordaining of openly gay people and of doing gay marriages and blessings who were in attendance that day also thought it might just be God’s judgement.
We need to stay out of two ditches–the judgemental one that assumes every natural disaster is God’s judgement for sin, and the wishy washy God view that assumes God never uses natural disaster to judge sin.
@ Kolya: I think that Blake probably had mental health problems.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: It gained a lot of traction during the Victorian era, but it’s older than that.
Dee,
Ann Coulter is the guest preacher at our church this morning! I’ll let you know how the sermon was.
linda wrote:
In the OT God made sure that those He was going to punish knew that they were going to get punished and why. I think that sometimes we forget that we are not under the OT. Judgement comes with the Second Coming of Christ. I have a real problem when we attribute any tragedy (be it man made or natural) to the judgement of God. We just don’t have the information to back it up.
No more allegations about Discerning Reader’s past until we have time to check into some allegation made this morning.
Stay away from speculation about crimes and such. If you have facts email us.
Linda, good point. C S Lewis would have agreed with you, I think.
However I would also suggest that we cannot necessarily know for certain. When some people came to Jesus telling him about Jews who had been victims of Pilate, Jesus asked them whether they thought those people had been any worse sinners (if I remember correctly) than others, or the ones on whom the Tower of Siloam fell. I think his point was that all people sin, and that each person should look to themselves rather than deciding God’s judgement had fallen in a particular case.
I also think from the NT epistles that God’s judgement, or perhaps correction would be a better word, falls on the church when it goes wrong, or when individuals in it go wrong. Paul says himself in 1 Cor “what have I to do with outsiders?”. I would suggest that nations in a sense are “outsiders” – it is the church that God primarily corrects.
On the other hand I agree with you that we should never preclude God’s judgement or the possibility thereof. Sometimes there seems to be a cause and effect with nations where their violent actions (think eg of Assyria, or Hitler’s Germany, or Pol Pot’s Cambodia) are so sinful in terms of aggression, robbery and murder, that they end up being destroyed. On the face of it this appears to be because their neighbours, or their own people, cannot bear it any longer, but on the other hand is the destruction of those empires perhaps also not God’s judgement? Certainly in the case of Assyria it seems to be specifically spelled out that this is so.
Of course one has to be careful here, as a lot of innocent blood is spilled in these histories. But perhaps that too is part of living in a fallen world run (on the face of it) by humans whose motives are mixed at the best of times.
Steve D wrote:
That is a good point, Steve. I think it’s also important to remember that we have every reason to be skeptical when someone claims special knowledge about God’s will and purpose, knowledge that happens to be inaccessible to the rest of us. If we can’t square John Piper’s conception of God with what Christ revealed to us about God, then perhaps we should say … Farewell John Piper?
To our readers: Total repudiation of a comment on our blog today
TWW repudiates the charges made on this blog by a commenter this morning. Said comment has given us a whole new list of banned words to add to our “bad word” filter. I have contacted that commeter and told him that such comments could be viewed as libel.
No further comments should be made about Discerning Reader or any of the people who write for that site. Stick to the facts.
lilyrosemary wrote:
Well played 🙂
I suspect that there are times that WE would like to see judgement played out, when it fact God has other plans. I am extremely skeptical whenever someone says that a tragedy is God’s judgement. In part because there is no proof. We may believe that there is circumstantial evidence for God’s judgement. However, circumstance isn’t quite enough.
Regarding allegations:
We have removed 5 comments. Not all of them were bad but they were responding to over the top allegations by one commenter. We wanted all reference to that comment out of here. Dee is becoming concerned that some people may be playing games with us. So, if your comment was removed, it was because it referred to the awful comment in question.
Review: Stick to the facts at hand. Do not ever make any unsubstantiated charges. If there is an unsubstatiated comment, such commenters will be banned immediately from this blog. Stay away from name calling.
We will publish IP addresses for such comments.
71.218.230.103
Dee,
This post written by Tim Challies will help clear up some of the confusion about ‘The Discerning Reader’ website.
http://www.challies.com/articles/the-future-of-discerning-reader
@ deb:
Deb, Thanks for the link. It did clear up some confusion for me.
@ Steve Scott: You have got to be kidding. This I have to hear!
One further comment removed that referenced the repudiated comment. This commeter did not say anything wrong. I just wanted to get a reference to the other comment out of the thread.
Hmmm….my thoughts natural disasters being God’s judgment…I grew up in a home / denom that taught this, although they didn’t ever get very specific, like Piper & RFobertson do. Still, it was an underlying belief. I was wrestling with this one day, a few years ago because it seemed so out of character for Jesus – and if Jesus is God (and he said he was and Paul wrote that he was the express image of God) then his character is the plumbline. And this didn’t fit…..and I was arguing with him about it and he suggested I read the story of when Elijah fled from the wrath of Jezebel and hid out in a cave and was crying out to God….
So I went to 1 Kings 19 and read. The following are the verses that stood out to me from that. Understand, he never explicitly said he was or wasn’t what these men say, he just asked me to read and form my one conclusion. So, here you go….
Anon 1 wrote:
Should I ask what Mohler meant by this?
@ Jeannette Altes:
Jeanette, I don’t believe I’ve ever read The Message translation of 1 Kings – it’s a really lovely lovely picture, however.
FWIW after Isaiah, Elijah and Elisha are probably my most often read OT scriptures. 🙂
anonymous wrote:
I think it is best to go listen to the video cos it depends on who you ask:
http://vimeo.com/15887245
To those in the SBC who are NOT New Calvinist and help pay his salary, it has been a shock to hear this.
@ Anon 1:
OK. Thanks.
Anon 1 wrote:
Yes, he would say that. But my point is just that you can’t really say that having the right view is due to intellegence.
@ Steve Scott:So, I wonder what her views are on complementarianism….
@ Anon 1:
Interesting video. (Especially when I finally realized NC was NOT North Carolina.)
So if you’re a real Christian you’ll realize that NC is the only way. And thus by implication if you’re not NC, well sorry but you’re not a real Christian. Or at least an immature one with a lot of things to learn.
I think the SBC is going to fracture again soon. Unless the NC’s have infiltrated so many pastors that the congregations get stuck between walking out and going along. And walking out for an SBC congregant is hard since they’ve usually been raised to think theirs is the one true way.
@ Steve Scott:
Steve, c’mon – you’re pulling our legs, right? Ann Coulter is not really speaking from the pulpit, is she?
@ Mr.H:
Exactly. I’m classic dispensationalist, essentially holding the same view as Charles Ryrie, John Walvoord, J. Dwight Pentecost, etc.
The adjectives I use to describe the Neo-Reformed/YRR/New Calvinist crowd are arrogant, condescending, and hypocritical. They are the (bastardized) step-children of New Evangelicals, who came out of older fundamentalism of the 1940s and 50s, supposedly because of the fundamentalists’ meanness, their pessimism, and lack of interest in interacting and dialogue with liberal theologians.
But what I see in among the Neo-Reformed is much much worse: the lack of Christ-like character being first and foremost. Thier movement has proven destructive in family life, it degrades women to second-class status, 3-year old children have allegedly asked to confront and forgive their molesters. Then there is the horrible soteriology, confounding justification with sanctification (especially evident in Piper’s works), the theory that Christians remain totally depraved AFTER their conversion, and consequently the lack of eternal security. Then there is the rejection of a true congregational polity, instead opting more for the “Moses model” and control by the elites in the church. This I find exteremely objectionable as a Baptist.
In weighing the evidence, the neo-Reformed movement is far more offensive and objectionable than anything the older fundamentalists were.
@ Jeff S: I agree that intelligence has nothing to do with salvation. I believe that profoundly mentally challenged people are saved and babies are saved.
Jesus chose fishermen as his disciples, not the theologians and philosophers.
I also believe that God does keep some people from the faith through the process of “hardening the heart.” However, I also believe that these people never had a heart for God and, in some circumstances, actively persecuted the people of God such as Pharaoh.
But, I also believe that people can have a hard heart all of their lives and come to Christ on their death bed as did my dad.
If Mohler said such a thing, he needs to be slapped upside his head. Did his mama teach him his manners? As I look at my Jesus, I see the Son of Man who had compassion for the people. Arrogance and pride are two words that do not come to mind when I think of Him. May leaders like Mohler start looking at the actions of their Savior when they are tempted to be a bit uppity.
@ Rafiki:
🙂 Isaiah is probably my favorite OT book. I love reading about Elijah & Elisha, too.
(And just coz its funny, my phone’s autocorrect kept trying to turn Elisha into relish 😉 )
@ Ryan: I thought i would tell you something my pastor, who studied under Walvoord said to me today. He said that Walvoord told his students that pre tribulation rapture WAS a fundamental belief for Christians. I am hoping that Walvoord had eaten too much Tex Mex and had heartburn that affected his answer.
My pastor is a dispensationalist but is also a great keeper of the peace and I admire him. He teases me a bit for my foray into partial preterism from ardent dispensationalism.
Here is how I wished that people would answer on all sorts of these issues-Creationism, Calvinism, Arminianism, Eschatology, etc.” I believe “x”. I think I am right but, knowing God who is far beyond this finite mind, I may be in for some surprises. “
@ Rafiki:I bet she wore her infamous leather miniskirt and décolletage, as well.
@ Kolya:
I don’t know that much about Accelerated Christian Education (ACE) but I do know it gets bad reviews similar to those of the Abeka and Bob Jones curricula. Standard fundy censorship of sex, evolution, history, etc., I think. To give you a flavor of what that may entail, the Abeka health curriculum I used in homeschool high school (under duress – my mom hated it too but it’s hard to find a homeschool health curriculum) eliminated not just the reproductive system from the human anatomy chart but also the urinary system, because at the end of the male urinary system is a certain thing they can’t show. The poor innocent kidneys were relegated to the section on UTIs.
@ deb:
Thanks, Deb. So the site has been abandoned for the past year, but it appears that Mr. Challies owned and ran it for 5-6 years.
Anon 1
I watched that video with Mohler, Duncan and DeYoung up to the point where Mohler mentioned Sovereign Grace Ministries and then I had to stop.
As far as I am concerned, SGM has been a major fail and I have to question Mohler’s … wait for it … DISCERNMENT.
Bridget
Yep, it’s a dead duck.
One anecdote: I came to faith in a dispensational context and although I don’t currently consider myself a dispensationlist, I have many close friends and spiritual family members who do hold to this framework. One day I was chatting with some Neo-Reformed individuals in a casual context and the issue of eschatology came up. One of them condescendingly mentioned how Dispensationalists should be put on probation in terms of their status as Christians and their mental acuity should be checked, ostensibly because it would require a very low IQ to “fall for” the theology of dispensationalism. I was shocked to hear this, but I was even more shocked when the other 4 individuals present laughed instead of rebuking their sinful brother.
This cracks me up! They need to get out more…they are setting themselves up for major humiliation. Hopefully at the hands of a female scholar 🙂
Oops, I mullered the quote function: most of that was Mr H’s comment. I think this is pretty common though, I have heard this before for sure. What’s that verse? ‘Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up’.
dee wrote:
I think such an attitude would tone down the temp considerably, and let in a lot more light.
Steve Scott wrote:
Just out of curiosity Steve, How much is she charging your church for the “privilege”?
dee wrote:
That’s pretty much how I am.
I am dispensationalist, futurist, and pre trib, and several years ago, when I was looking up Bible prophecy stuff on the internet, I kept running across sites by Christians who say if you are pre trib (as I am) you are Ssatanic, deluded, a hertic and/or several sites said you are “not a Christian.”
I happened to disagree with amillenialism, Post-Trib, Mid Trib, etc, but, it never occurred to me to classify a Christian who is a-mil, post trib, etc, as “Satanic,” or as not being a real Christian.
One of the first sites I came across all those years ago that said Pre Tribbers were not really saved, I e-mailed the lady who ran the site to ask for clarification of her views, because I was utterly dumbfounded and had a hard time grasping that any professing Christian would take an area (such as Bible prophecy and related stuff) that is so grey and not made central to salvation, and make it into such a black- and- white thing, and exclude others on that basis.
She wrote me back and said, yes indeed, I understood her site correctly, she was in fact saying Pre Tribbers are unsaved.
I wish my mother had not raised me to think being a good Christian meant being a doormat (that created all manner of problems for me over my whole life), but one area or two where I am forever grateful to my Mom is that she really, really stressed the very basic belief in me from the children’s song “Jesus Loves Me” (she used to sing it to me when I was a kid) that all I need to know is to believe in and accept Jesus, and that she treated every one with kindness, even if they didn’t share her particular views on theology or politics.
This was in the news the past few days:
Victory Christian [church in Oklahoma] staff members released early from jail sentence
I’ve been an amillenial partial preterist for years and as long as dispensationalists avoid saying I’m not a Christian we can just differ on a few things. The essential points of agreement should be enough to outweigh differences. I only get cranky with dispensationalist/futurist eschatology when it’s used by paranoid people to fan the flames of social and economic fears they would already have without eschatology adding fuel to the fire.
I’m not a “pan-millenialist” because that takes too lazy a view of the texts and reflects zero interest in apocalyptic literature. I’d rather have a friendly disagreement with a dispensationalist who’s actually dealt with apocalyptic literature than some “pan-millenialist” who won’t even bother to do some basic reading on the subject of eschatology, but that’s just me.
@ Daisy:
Daisy,
I am a Dispensationalist too. I would be interested to know what this lady’s logic was that led her to that conclusion.
@ anonymous:
It’s been ten years or there about since I wrote her, so I don’t remember her rationale, or even the name of her site.
But there are (or at least were) sites by those against dispensationalism and/or Pre Trib who feel that way, or who, if they acknowledge you can be a Christian, will say you are deluded by Satan, or you are a heretic. I don’t think these people are in the majority, but I did come across a tiny number of web pages like that years ago.
There are also self professing Christians who say if you don’t use the KJV 1611 Bible version alone or use a modern version, then you’re not saved, or you’re a heretic.
Christians will condemn other Christians over issues that IMO are trivial or grey and should not be a cause for that level of animosity.
@ anonymous: I did find this (I don’t know who owns this site or who this Lloyd guy is):
This view appears to be in the minority, thankfully.
Hmmm…The following books were go to books for my mother…
Dispensational Truth
The Late Great Planet Earth
Revelation Expounded
(The one I remember off the top of my head)
So I was raised hard-core dispensationalist. But even my mother, whose favorite name to call anyone who disagreed with her was, ‘Philistine’, never suggestted that non-dispensationalists weren’t saved or Christian.
Oddly enough, it has been my independent study of the Bible sans ‘aids’ that has led my to doubt dispensationalism. I still lean slightly pre-trib, but I no longer see that is really that big a deal. What does it really matter which of them is ‘right.’ In the end, they all end at the same place. 😉
I think there is something much more important than whether we have the precise timeline of future events properly mapped out. That thing is just to simply walk with Jesus – know him and be known by him. The rest will take care of itself.
I think about when Jesus was born and how the Pharisees had the meaning of the messianic prophecies all mapped out – and didn’t recognize what was happening before their eyes. At the same time, the prophetess Anna and the priest Simeon sought God and walked with him and God told them who Jesus was when they saw him.
I think sometimes, people get caught up in wanting to be ‘in the kknow’ or wanting to know exactly what to expect so they don’t have to worry….just walking in relationship with Jesus and letting him define things for you is scarier, I guess. Having it all mapped out with ‘certainty’ allows a feeling of security – of ‘having things under control.’ But in my experience, it is a false sense of security and the more of you piece of mind is invested in that, the more vigorously that must be defended….
Truly, when I think about the studying I’ve done, I see things that incline me to leann a certain direction, <b?but I also know, clearly, that I really don’t know and further, that I really don’t need to know. And that has brought a different kind of peace and freedom.
Glad I’m not satanic! I suspect I’m on most people’s heresy list somewhere since I’m amillenial (like most Anglicans), don’t believe in a rapture, partial preterist, non-Calvinist (but not exactly Arminian) feminist egalitarian, semi-charismatic, love the occasional glass of wine and only had 2 kids. Oh. and I’m anti-spanking and don’t really care about creation/evolution. And you know what? The only time I have problems with people who disagree me on any of these things is when they question my salvation or tell me I’m sinning in my beliefs. God is bigger than any of us, he has revealed all things necessary for salvation, but not everything on every subject — and that’s ok
@ dee:
I think we are on the same page 🙂
Off topic, regarding:
Preachers who are more concerned with a Christian husband’s supposed “right to sex” than they are about a wife’s prior sexual abuse.
About twice in the last year, I’ve seen Christian preachers on Christian television, when giving sermons about sex within marriage, make these statements that people who were sexually abused in childhood have difficulties having sex as an adult in marriage.
The thing that bothered me when these two men were explaining this fact is that they were telling women who were in this situation to get counseling for their previous sexual abuse – not because they deserved healing – but because their former sexual abuse was currently negatively impacting their spouse’s sex lives.
Their concern is not for the recovering sexual abuse victim, but that their husbands may not be getting regular, or, stupendous sex.
I’m not saying this is a view I’ve heard often, but two or three times in the last year (on Christian tv, and possibly one or two Christian blogs about relationships).
It may not be a prevalent view, but some male pastors or Christian counselors are teaching it.
I don’t understand why their main (or only) concern is with the male spouse’s sex life and about none for the psychological scars or phobias the women victims are having to endure. Something seems very wrong and selfish about that.
Didn’t preacher Mark Driscoll say as much in one of his books, that because his wife Grace had been abused during her teen years, she found having sex with him later in marriage difficult, and he was complaining about that – not that his wife had been hurt, but that poor widdle him was not having sex as frequently as he had hoped, or she was not willing to try his preferred sexual positions?
If there are any sexual abuse survivors who have met this perspective after having gone to a Christian counselor or pastor over any of this (so it’s a lot more frequent than what I first thought), I hope Deb and Dee consider making at least one blog post about it.
There’s a really disturbing “entitlement” mentality concerning sex when it comes to some Christian males.
Some of them, including abusive ones (I have read on the internet), will quote that part from the New Testament about “the wife’s body belongs to the husband” at their wives when their wives don’t want to perform.
(These types of men always ignore the part about the ‘husband’s body belongs to the wife,’ and that couples can agree to abstain from sex if they choose).
Hester, thanks for your note on ACE. If anyone else has any experience of it and would like to tell me off forum, please feel free to let Dee or Deb know as they have my E-mail address.
For what it’s worth, my first exposure to evangelical Christianity as a believer was in a church where dispensationalist beliefs were very common and indeed I thought dispensationalism was evangelical Christianity (in fact I didn’t hear the word “dispensationalism” for some years). I think one of the things that led me to move away from the position was the belief of some people who seemed to label some groups “the enemy” (Russians and Arabs in particular) and others were the good guys (Israel in particular). Also the habit of trying to read Biblical prophecy into every current event I found a bit disturbing…. and of course with hindsight some of Hal Lindsey’s formulations and matchings look decidedly wrong (eg the EEC became more than 10 countries, Communism faded out instead of bringing about an apocalypse, etc). But I NEVER questioned whether other Christians who still held those beliefs were somehow inferior as Christians – there is one in my church at the moment who is a godly man who encourages me in many ways.
That James Lloyd broadcase is disturbing but sadly not totally surprising. Os Guinness suggested in “Fit Bodies, Fat Minds” that “shock jock” culture might start lapping at the edges of evangelical Christianity.
Daisy, I agree with much of what you say, although I should also point out that the passage you mention does suggest that the withholding of conjugal relations by one party from another without mutual agreement is criticised by Paul. Also he seems to concede going without sex for “a season” mainly on the grounds of praying together, and encourages the couple to then resume again.
Although I agree that I don’t think it’s a free pass for either partner to have sex every single time they feel like it – each spouse should be concerned for the other’s health and well-being. As for having sex during menstruation, well, call me old-fashioned, but….
Daisy wrote:
Let’s all sing. If it was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me.
🙂
@ Lynn:
It also cracks me up to watch movies about Jesus where Jesus has a British accent (the actor playing Jesus is British).
(As an American, I don’t notice American accents from American actors playing Jesus all too much, but I always get a grin out of British accent Jesuses.)
@ Lynn:
I wonder why anyone thinks the 1611 KJV is better (purer) than another translation? A king paid for it and has his name on it but we’re supposed to believe there was no bias anywhere.
Eagle wrote:
This would be a great topic!
One of the great things about the EFCA is the emphasis it places on core Christian distinctives and the flexibility it gives when it comes to non-essentials.
But this same flexibility is what allows the Calvinistas to infiltrate. The irony is that they would not allow the same thing to happen if the denomination in question were PCUSA or Acts29 or some other distinctively Neo-Reformed denomination.
Bridget wrote:
For several 100 years in the US/colonies/territories it was THE book in most homes. Many times the only book. It was the guide to their faith and the reader used to teach kids to read. When you grow up in a home where the only book that you’ve ever read or your parents read or their parents and so on for 200 years or more the book becomes somewhat of a revered thing.
I have one that I think is over 100 years old from my family. It was poorly kept for a number of years and is now missing the over and the birth / death notices in the front are nearly invisible but I want to get it restored at some point.
Eagle wrote:
So far, the official EFCA SoF is pretty broadly evangelical: http://www.efca.org/explore/what-we-believe
I haven’t heard much about the re-writing process apart from the fact that, according to some, it is being infused with more “Calvinist” language. But I wonder what this really means, as the EFCA can’t go too far without alienating a huge portion of its member congregations.
Also, regarding the situation at TEDS: I’ve heard that there can be quite the conflict behind the scenes when it comes to certain areas. In particular, I heard that the issue of egalitarianism/complementarianism is a hot and contentious topic among the students as well as the staff. One individual told me that a female student was required to preach a short sermon for a preaching class and a handful of male students (obviously hardcore complementarians) got up and left in protest during her sermon, and then came back afterwards.
@ Daisy:
Sigh. 🙁
I’ve never heard of James Lloyd, which is probably just as well.
Well, for some reason Ann Coulter didn’t preach at our church this morning. She wasn’t even there. That’s a shame because I was really looking forward to hearing her discerning skills. 🙁
Speaking of discernment, several of you thought I was joking. 😉
(I was)
@ anonymous:
There were a few more like that years ago, but I can’t remember what their names were, or the name of the lady who I contacted. It was so long ago, their sites may not even exist any more.
Kolya wrote:
I believe you’re talking about ACE, a Christian school/homeschool curriculum where students are to work at their own pace, with little to no teacher interaction. It has quite a few drawbacks: those who are bright can work through their daily lessons in a short time, and those who have trouble don’t usually have a subject-oriented teacher to go to when they don’t understand something. I haven’t had any personal experience with it, but comments made by those who have delineate these as two of the bigger problems with the curriculum.
Bridget wrote:
If it was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for me! 😉
Bridget wrote:
I’m very familiar with this subject. I will try to keep this short.
It’s not so much that most KJV Onlyists make claims in favor of KJV on its own merits, as much as they suspect new translations as being what they call “perversions.”
In the view of KJV Onlyists, the newer Bible versions have intentionally been altered to insert false doctrine by New Agers, Roman Catholics, lesbians, and other groups they do not approve of or like or agree with.
KJV Onlyists distrust textual criticism (lower text crit), even though it was used in the making of the TR (the text upon which the KJV is based) and the KJV itself.
They distrust the older mss (especially Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus) because newer versions refer to them / use them.
KJV Onlyists play guilt by association too, even if it’s based on little to no truth in reality or is not relevant to Bible versions per se.
Typical example: Westcott and Hort were involved in textual criticism, they allegedly were involved in some paranormal group (not really, but KJVOs don’t care about the truth, or distort it to say W and H were occultic), ergo, you can’t trust anything W+H ever wrote or taught about Bibles, translations, or text criticism.
About their only argument in favor of the KJV is that it was one of the most widely used and beloved versions ever.
They also equate verses about “God’s word standeth forever” and such to mean only the KJV 1611. When you ask why such verses can’t equally apply to the NASB, NKJV, of the NIV, they don’t have a good reason.
The KJV underwent revisions and changes over the centuries, not just minor ones, and they cannot tell you which of the several versions is “THE” Word of God (except for the tiny minority who, if I recall correctly, recognize only the edition published in 1611).
Steve Scott wrote:
LOLOLOLOL you hooligan! 🙂
Steve
You were merely looking to see who would throw the pie.
Jeff S
You said someting nice about us somewhere else. Thank you.
@ Kolya:
As I’m in my early 40s and still a virgin though I do have sexual desire, I – despite that Paul in the Bible may be critical of it – don’t have sympathies for married men (or gals) who complain they aren’t getting enough, or their spouse doesn’t want to, or that they have to go without for X days, hours, or months.
Kolya wrote:
That was the main point of my post.
Eagle, did you ever see the posts I left for you on one of the last posts about Welch?
Daisy wrote:
Thank you. as a male, married , who has had major surgery and a wife who has had breast cancer, I get tired of certain pastors who push the marriage=unlimited sex agenda. If all a marriage is about is getting laid, it’s not a strong marriage.
@ Kolya:
Here’s a UK blogger who has done a lot of stuff about ACE. Definitely not a pro-ACE opinion.
http://leavingfundamentalism.wordpress.com/category/accelerated-christian-education/
Tikatu, thanks for your notes on ACE. Steve Scott, we are greatly amused! 🙂
Daisy, thanks for the KJVO notes. I do remember this coming up a few years ago – there are a few people over here who hold similar positions. I think there are also divisions within the KJVO movement itself – the part associated with Peter Ruckmann is I think seen as the more extreme due to Mr Ruckmann’s suggestion of “additional revelations” in the English test. I think also one similar-minded preacher claimed on a radio show that non-English speakers would have to learn English and read the KJV if they really wanted to read the Bible. James White wrote a book on the KJVO position/controversy, but I haven’t read it.
Hi Hester, thanks for that link. I had seen this blog before, hence partly my reason for asking.
Daisy wrote:
I have a standard comeback to “Poor Poor Me! I Haven’t Gotten Laid for X Days!!!”:
“I haven’t gotten laid for 57 years — GROW UP!”
dee wrote:
Of course! I actually say nice things about TWW a lot :)- including a link on my new website I’m using to promote my music:
http://www.steadyonband.com
Kolya wrote:
You, too, huh? I got infected back when the Bible had 3 1/2 books: Daniel, Revelation, the “Nuclear War Chapter” of Ezekiel (the 1/2), and Hal Lindsay’s Late Great Planet Earth, with Jack Chick’s “The Beast” as backup. End Time Prophecy, End Time Prophecy, End Time Prophecy, Bad Craziness.
Then came Dake’s Annotated Bible, with its psychotically-intricate notes and charts. Even Badder Craziness.
It wasn’t until some years later — after several Rapture Scare freakouts and a Seventh-Day Adventist End Time Prophecy book which quoted the same chapter-and-verse postal codes to support a completely-different End Times choreography — that finally broke its hold.
“Sourthwest Radio Church — Today’s Headlines In Light Of (i.e. as fulfillments of) Bible Prophecy!!!!”
During the Cold War, I called this “Christians for Nuclear War” — It’s Coming, It’s Prophesied, It’s Prophesied… Just Say the Magic Words so God will beam you up to Heaven just before the first ICBM warheads detonate…
“ALL THE END TIME PROPHECIES ARE BEING FULFILLED EVEN AS WE SPEAK! WE MIGHT NOT HAVE A 1978!!! OR EVEN A 1977!!!!!”
Again, Bad Craziness.
Daisy wrote:
Lynne T wrote:
No, I am. Evolution, Romish Papist, Dungeons & Dragons, Furry Fandom, and My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
Speshul Sekrit Knowledge.
In Greek, “Occult Gnosis”.
Maybe someone else mentioned this, but I don’t seem to recall any big religious leaders claiming God’s judgement when wildfires reached evangelical capital of the world Colorado Springs last summer…
Kristin wrote:
Kristen Kristen Kristen…..just where in the Bible are wildfires mentioned as God’s tool of judgement? Earthquakes are, storms & famines….but wildfires? Do you even READ the Bible? 😉
@ Kristin:
Isn’t that the truth!
http://jrforasteros.com/2012/07/02/why-does-god-send-wild-fires/
@ Kristin:
Great observation, Kristin!
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Thanks for saying this, HUG.
It is what I was thinking but didn’t have time to respond.
I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again, any church built by selling sex is no church at all. It is selling their women into prostitution (porn, service, whatever you want to call it). Their church is not built on the Rock of Jesus Christ. It is build on the back of women by making them sex slaves to their husbands.
Drsicoll uses sex as a way to keep the men pacified and in order. He is a pimp who stamps “Thus saith the Lord” on his pornified theology.
I don’t think anyone would want to go back to the days when sex was never mentioned in church or among Christians and where Christian girls were supposed to be “nice girls” who didn’t have sex drives the same as their husbands, would they?
On the other hand I agree that there is a certain amount of patriarchialism being carried on the back of some of the more vociferous voices discussing sex. To say that Christian couples should be free to enjoy sex, and even some variation within sex, is not the same as saying that the man has a 100% no-denial free pass.
It would be nice if churches could keep the subject in balance without either sweeping it under the carpet or being too “in your face” about it. Plus sometimes I think discussions about sex are best confined to the printed page.
Kolya wrote:
Precisely. “Christian couples”, by definition, does not only include men.
@ Kolya: Here in the US, it’s still common for women to be told that they have to be “nice girls.”
the idea of discussing women’s desires as a real thing is, sadly, not a reality in most evangelical/charismatic circles – unless it’s done to condemn the woman/women who have feelings.
I’m serious; in many places, this is NOT a topic for discussion. It’s as if women are supposed to be demure shrinking violets who have never even so much as had one red-blooded thought in their lives.
🙁 [should be an icon for “disgust” as well]
Sorry if I came on too strong.
I’ve studied Song of Solomon on my own.
Then I saw some of Driscoll’s teaching on it.
Though much of the Songs if from a woman’s perspective, Driscoll steals most all of it away and turns it into what men want (and therefore what women should want to give wildly in the bedroom while remaining demure and quite mice in the public sphere).
Yes, there should be mutuality in sex.
No, Driscoll and a lot of these men don’t get mutuality. They get complimentarianism and porn.
@ Mara: I hate what he’s done to the SoS.
For one thing, instead of approaching it as love poetry that uses allusive language, he’s taken certain images out of context and twisted them to equal something that he wants.
It’s awful on so many levels.
So, right now I’m watching the awful scene unfolding in Boston, and wondering what Christian leader will be able to tell us why this has happened. I think the role we should play is one of prayer and tangible help, not raining down condemnation in an effort to explain it away…
Koyla–totally agree about the not knowing if a disaster is sent by God or not.
So I have huge trouble with someone pronouncing one definitely was, but no trouble at all with one suggesting it might have been or that they believe it was.
I had, member of ELCA at the time, no trouble with some of the delegates in attendance stating they thought perhaps the tornado might have been God’s strong warning to them. Kind of thought that myself.
But that is a far different matter than stating I know it was or that God told me it was.
And often, God may not have sent a disaster, but a person or a group may never the less find God using it to chastise them.
The next Big Box post is up.
On the Discernment Bloggers topic,
“The fact that today’s media allows us to have access to facts, does not necessarily give license to avail ourselves of them.
If it is true that I am called to love other Christians, that I am called to believe and hope all things, that I am far outside this situation, then I think I do well to learn less rather than more. I need to know only enough to understand that I don’t need to know anything more!”
Blogger xxx 02/28/13 about SGM
“The ninth commandment forbids us from lying, but it does far more than that. It demands that we deliberately seek out the truth. Even in an age of skimming, in an age in which we are drowning in a glut of information, it demands that we pursue the whole truth rather than risk promoting a lie. It demands that we resist the lazy temptation to have our views shaped by a skim and that we instead do the hard work of pursuing facts.”
Blogger xxx 04/15/13 about Howard Schultz and Tim Keller
*****
Does this reflect A Change of Heart, or A Change of Topic?
(from The Topic We Dare Not Learn About –SGM–to Any Other Topic).
Just Sayin’ wrote:
Given past performance, “Who” will probably be Pat Robertson or one of the Calvinistas and “Why” will probably be (1) HOMOSEXUALITY, (2) ABORTION, and/or (3) EVOLUTION. With most of the book for “Why” down on (1).
Mara wrote:
I’ve been exposed to a lot of porn (in Furry Fandom), and have come to recognize the common patterns. And a lot of these reports fit those patterns.
✿*´¨)
¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.•` ¤ “Faith Un-fettered?”*´¨)
Dave A A quoted a blogger:
*
Was It not the turn of a blind eye in SGM that created this avalanche of ever-widening abuse, and subsequent alleged coverup –in the first place?
Now we are seeing a turn of a ‘friendly’ card perhaps?
On can only hope…
¸✿.´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.•` ¤ “The Turn Of A Friendly Card?”*´¨)
…♪♫♪ There are unsmiling faces in fetters and chains
On a wheel of perpetual motion,
Who belong to all members and answer all their names
With no show of outward emotion,
…♪♫♪ And they think their silence will make their lives easier,
But the door to their freedom is barred,
…♪♫♪ And the game never ends when your whole world depends,
On the turn of a proverbially friendly SGM pastor?*
(sadface)
Sopy
___
*The Alan Parsons Project – ““he Turn Of A Friendly Card, part 2″
Copyright © : (P) 1980, 2008 Arista Records LLC.
(lyrics reflect parody adaptation, disclaimer: U.S. Title 17 infringement unintended.)
—
Linda, that last point is a good one. If a disaster speaks to a particular person, no matter what its provenance, then God uses it in some way.
Just saw the news about Boston, btw – terrible news.
@ Kolya
As a break in this Post — Just heard the news about the explosions at the Boston Marathon, also…praying for the families and the victims. It’s a sad day when people resort to such acts of violence on such innocent people.
“About three hours after the winners crossed the line, there was a loud explosion on the north side of Boylston Street, just before the photo bridge that marks the finish line. Another explosion could be heard a few seconds later.”
(sadface)
Sopy
—
Daisy wrote:
“It says right here! You must have sex with me!” Why would anyone want to have sex with someone who’s not 100% willing in the first place?
Sorry, forgot the link before:
http://scarletlettersblog.wordpress.com/2013/04/15/the-wise-womans-guide-to-blessing-her-husbands-vision-the-blue-half-tbb/
Oasis wrote:
And that surely gets to the heart of the matter…who would? I just can’t imagine wanting such a thing.
Sopwith wrote:
Actually, two explosions twenty seconds and half a block apart. And the cops found a third bomb that was a dud. Two dead, 60 to 80 wounded at last count.
I was checking YouTube for coverage. Conspiracy Theory videos (mostly about the bombing being ordered by Obama so he could make himself dictator and/or ban all guns) were uploading within two hours of the blasts; it’s five hours on and the Conspiracy Videos are now almost as numerous as the actual news footage.
Sopwith wrote:
We can only hope that they (admirals, generals, & captains of industry) won’t try to manufacture another “enemy” whose country we must now invade in order to preserve the Pax Americana.
@ Kolya:
Ann Coulter is a political writer. She sometimes touches on religion a bit but it’s not really her expertise.
Many right wing fundamentalist groups in the US have a political agenda but to my knowledge, Ann Coulter is not affiliated with the Quiverful Movement or anything like that. Just Fox News. I’m far more concerned about people like John Piper and Mark Driscoll.