Our Lord has written the promise of the resurrection, not in books alone but in every leaf is springtime. -Martin Luther
Today, I tweeted an interesting statistic that I read at Christianity Today link.
This year, LifeWay found that "just over half of self-identified Christians say they will attend Easter services. Protestants (58 percent) and Catholics (57 percent) are most likely to say they plan on attending Easter services, followed by 45 percent of nondenominational Christians."
Easter celebrates the pivotal event in the history of the faith. If Christ did not rise from the dead, then there would be no Christianity.1 Corinthians 15:13-19 NIV Bible Gateway:
If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
Yet, it appears that, on the day when our churches are supposedly full of people, nearly 50% of the self-reported faithful do not attend this glorious celebration. Why? TWW has documented the rise of the Nones: those who leave the institutionalized church and claim no membership in the organized church. However, about 40% of these "nones" have not left the faith, merely the church buildings.
The question is, "Why?" We have explored some of the reasons and you can read about them here, here and here.
Sometimes, however, people leave the faith altogether and become the subset of "Nones" who are agnostics or atheists. For many years, I have read the stories of those who walked away from the faith and tried to understand the reasons for the loss of faith. I do not want this discussion to turn into a doctrinal diatribe about the "perseverance of the saints" or the "once saved; always saved."
Instead, I would hope that all of us would examine ourselves to see if we are truly prepared to give a reason for the hope that we have. Also, we should ask ourselves if we are willing to listen to those who have been kind enough to share with a bunch of Christians why they no longer believe. Frankly, many of them could blow us off and be quite content never to speak with another Christian for the rest of their lives. Some, however, want us to understand and I do not take that for granted.
Sheldon and I have been communicating via email and I find him to be a thoughtful and kind person. His blog is called The Ramblings of Sheldon link. I found this bio of him posted on My Secret Atheist Blog here
Sheldon Cooper is actually a pseudonym – an homage to the character in the popular US sitcom Big Bang Theory. So this is a real person using the name of a fictional television character to hide his real identity.
Sheldon was born into a fundamentalist Christian family. He made his profession of faith at only five years old and went to a Southern Baptist College for a year where he worked on a Biblical Studies minor.
A nervous breakdown cut his studies short after one year and he still suffers from OCD and depression.
A crisis of faith lead him away from Christianity back in 2010 and around 2011 he began to consider himself Agnostic.
He is also a moderate libertarian politically, very anti-war, pro-civil-rights and pro-small-government but he seldom handles political issues on his blog.
Warning YEC rant: I would also like to point out something. I know many of you tire of my concerns about Young Earth Creationism(YEC) as it relates to the loss of faith. I want to stress that I did NOT tell Sheldon to discuss this issue and yet he does. I truly believe that an insistence on YEC is one of the main factors in the loss of faith. End rant.
By the way, this story has a little something for everybody including patriarchy, IFB, Bill Gothard and the evils of birth control.
Thank you, Sheldon, for sharing your story. I need to return the favor.
Jumping on Cassettes: My Experience in Fundamentalism
I attended a small private school from kindergarten to 5th grade, that was a part of the Independent Fundamental Baptist organization, a group that I today have no qualms about calling a cult.
If you wonder why I call them a cult, check out the page on my blog, Exposing the IFB, dedicated to this organization, and you will find out quickly why I use the “cult” label when referring to them, they more than deserve it.
This exposure to the IFB, since my sister also attended this school during her high school years, led my sister to go to one of their colleges, Hyles-Anderson, where she met her husband, she didn’t leave the IFB until three years ago.
The school used a fundamentalist curriculum called Accelerated Christian Education, a curriculum that is pro-Creationism (and uses very faulty reasoning and "facts" to support it), and agrees with the IFB in their views on the world and the family, especially their belief in a highly patriarchal sub culture where women have no rights, and birth control is forbidden.
The school was small, as ACE schools typically are, usually averaging 25-30 students a year. It was run then by a pastor and his wife (it is now closed, but they do still sell ACE curriculum for home school families through the church).
The pastor was an old style minister, constantly preaching about hell and judgment, and just about anything imaginable was a “sin”. He had quite a flair for the dramatic, especially when he believed it would get the attention of his students and/or congregation. He had this obnoxious habit of not only raising his voice during speeches, but slamming his hand on the podium, open handed, sideways (with the thumb facing up). The constant thumping would echo through the room, and on his microphone, it was almost enough to cause a headache. I had heard shortly after I left the school, that one Sunday morning, he had to be taken to the hospital during one of these pulpit pounding routines, because he hit the edge of the pulpit at an awkward angle and broke his wrist.
He would do anything that he thought would get his point across, including walking across the tops of the pews. There’s one incident I remember quite well. One morning, the students were assembled to hear him give an opening speech for the day, it usually wasn’t much of a speech, mostly announcements him or his wife felt were important to say that day, mundane details about upcoming events, etc. On this particular morning, he said that he had found a Janet Jackson cassette (this was the early 90′s) left behind on the floor, somewhere in the church/school building.
He tried to get one of us to confess to losing the cassette, but either none of us was willing to confess to owning it, and it is likely that it belonged that it belong to a bus kid, which is what we all thought was the case (it was Monday morning, and the church, like many fundamentalist churches was obsessed with bringing more people in through bus ministry).
We figured that’s what he would assume, and move on, or more likely that he would go on a rant about how “sinful” that kind of music was. Neither happened. His dramatic side kicked in. He set the cassette on the floor, moved a metal folding chair closer to him, stood on it, and jumped off onto the cassette, crushing it.He wan’t content to leave the whole incident at that, he had to keep stomping on it as well (as if the weight of a grown man jumping on it wasn’t enough to destroy it) Contrary to what most people reading this post might assume, none of us was surprised about this, because of his past behavior, some found it amusing, others just brushed it off.
After the 5th grade, I left this school, and my sister graduated from there. It was this time that the home schooling began, with ACE as the curriculum. From here, the isolation just got worse, going from 20 or more students to interact with, to just my family. This began a life long struggle with depression, (which I still have to deal with to this day). From the time I was about 9 years old to about 16 years old, I just shut down, I buried myself into my my classwork with ACE, and didn’t like to associate with most people, especially others my age. I didn’t want to be around them, and I didn’t understand them in the first place. The opening paragraphs of Jonny’s guest post on my blog sound rather similar to my experience, but not only was I socially awkward, I just did want anything to do with other young people, period.
This started to change when I was 16, due to two good friends I call Sam and Rose in my writings (not their actual names, I’m trying to preserve their privacy and mine), and a persistent girl who would end up becoming my girlfriend of 3 years. This gradual reaching out to people around me, wasn’t enough to prepare me for what would come next: college. The isolation, combined with preexisting depression (and many people have told me that I show signs of high functioning autism, I need to get tested), made for a miserable experience that led to a nervous breakdown once I entered college.
The college I attended, even though it was a Southern Baptist college (after my experience with the IF ended in the 5th grade, I was in the Assembly of God denomination, then the Southern Baptist churches), the class room style was much like a US public school, and there was a wider variety of people than I was used to. People from any different places, and not all were fundamentalists (chapel attendance was required, but no profession of faith).
It was just too much to handle, it wasn’t at all familiar, and I didn’t know how to handle it. Despite what Christian fundamentalism will claim their home schooling/private schooling world does not prepare people for actual life. I went home, back to fundamentalist family. I had to try to pick up the pieces, while facing their wrath over the nervous breakdown. It was my fault, I didn’t actually have depression, it was nothing more than “guilt” or “not having a right relationship with god”.
Regrettably, I started to believe it. I buried myself deeper into fundamentalism, spent many hours begging god for forgiveness, and started to sincerely double down on fundamentalism, reading the Bible more, reading and listening to like minded ministers, trying to get back into my faith. It seemed to work for about 2 years, until around my 21st birthday when doubts hit very fast.
Part of these major doubts were the fact that I was raised with the belief of divine inspiration, the belief that all of the Bible is divinely inspired, that god personally directed the authors of the books of the Bible. Nothing was written that he didn’t personally tell them to write. This creates some dilemmas.
A major one is the Old Testament, and its barbaric law code. I was told by many fellow fundamentalists that it was “only for that time period”. First of all, let’s not mind the fact that they like to quote from the Old Testament when it suits them (such as condemning homosexuality), but ignoring what they don’t like (don’t eat shellfish, women should have to marry their rapists). My thought was that if god had approved the Old Testament law at any time in human history, that was deeply disturbing, and it made him a god not worth worshipping. This was only one of several major issues, but one of the most important that led me out of fundamentalism.
Today, post fundamentalism, I’m a blogger, who has managed to find some success in the atheist/agnostic blogging world (far, far more, than I could ever imagine), telling my story, and giving people a first hand look at what fundamentalism really is like for someone who has lived through it.
The response has been good so far, many of the posts that I have written about my past have been the most popular on my blog, and I’ve been able to connect with other former fundamentalists who are great people to be around, some are still Christians even, like Lana, a survivor of the Bill Gothard branch of the IFB, she has been a big supporter of my blog, and did a interview for my blog about her experiences.
If you want to know more about my past, read my blog Ramblings of Sheldon, or follow me on Google +, I’m Sheldon Cooper over there, and yes, the name is after the character from the show The Big Bang Theory.
Lydia's Corner:Judges 11:1-12:15 John 1:1-28 Psalm 101:1-8 Proverbs 14:13-14
“The question is, ‘Why?’ We have explored some of the reasons and you can read about them here, here and here.”
And here:
http://www.ocean.org/Portals/17/Repository/Frank-Viola/FrankViola_StraightTalkToPastors.pdf
I just want to reach out and hug Sheldon. There is nothing in this world more devastating than realizing you have very little in common with your family or entire childhood support system.
Dee, I think you have hit the nail on the head with YEC playing a big role in alienating people from church and from faith. I grew up with a deep understanding of science (dad has a BS/MS/Ph.D. in science) and many of his colleagues refused to go to church because of the prevailing disdain for science found in churches. Its not just a basic misunderstanding of scientific concepts but oftentimes an outright hatred for modern science, especially for those who have degrees outside of medical science. My dad has found that he absolutely cannot mention his background in geology at a SBC church. Do not even get me started on churches that promote “faith healing”.
To Sheldon, I am deeply touched by your story. I hate that these things happened. The church is often one of the worst places for people with tendencies towards psychiatric disorders and especially those on the Autism Spectrum. This is not your fault and you are not alone. You will find many people here who will support you and love you simply because you are you.
As for Easter, my family and I will not be attending church. Again. This time it’s my fault as I’m recovering from my latest surgery. My doctor had given me permission to attend if I could find a church with pews and level floors (most churches here have an auditorium feel with sloped floors) but that isn’t really possible. Add to that a few complications and we will be watching a service online from the peace and quite of my bed followed by a nice crock-pot dinner.
Sheldon,
I’m sorry about your experiences. I sadly have to agree that most Christians either gloss over, or don’t really read much of the Old Testament laws. I too, struggle with trying to understand apparent commands for women to marry their rapists, especially since rape was also a death penalty offense. I am inclined to think that there is something we are missing in context (or translation) and that the women ordered to marry their “rapists” were perhaps women really being ordered to marry their seducers. Whether there is good evidence for this, I don’t know, but it’s something to consider.
Anyway, too many believers gloss over issues like these and it’s a turn-off to both unbelievers and those struggling with their faith. There is a real problem with intellectual dishonesty, cognitive dissonance, and just shallowness of Biblical knowledge in the church.
Sheldon,
My husband and his brothers, having been homeschooled in a Patriarchal culture, can relate to your experience of isolation. All of them are currently struggling with their faith, though they are honest, hard working men. It’s difficult for me to sift through the false teachings I have absorbed for two decades. You are not alone in this. I pray we all come to a place of peace in regards to our past.
My husband and I were both raised Roman Catholic, then turned to non-denominational churches in high school. We left church a couple of years ago. Last year was our first year that we had not gone to a Christmas service. This will most likely be the first year we don’t attend an Easter service. We have not abandoned our faith. We still believe in God and Jesus. We just are not interested in organized church at this moment.
I have an atheist brother who first began leaving the faith due to YEC and how angry my father and our IFB style regular Baptist school teachers would get when he questioned them. I still have have my creation project from 6th grade Bible class. It is a very heavy packed 3 in. three ring binder of many late night homework research assignments and Bible verses and magazine pictures, etc. all YEC.
I forgot to say that my brother did try very hard to believe, he even graduated from Calvin college.
There’s an additional wrinkle there that I picked up on.
“…show signs of high functioning autism”
I have a theory that those on the spectrum have a much harder time with coming to grips with faith. One of the the things about spectrum disorders is that it causes massive problems with social skills and relational area of your life.
When you struggle to relate to other human beings, how are we meant to relate to God?
To me, the logical methodology of atheism combined with naturalistic evolution just makes more sense, if that’s the way you’re wired. At least, that’s what I think.
I have two kids on the spectrum. I’m probably on it too. Some days, the only thing that stands between me an atheism feels like my complete inability to not believe in the existence of God.
Coming from the kind of fundamentalist background Sheldon does, where complications and biblical conflicts are glossed over and problems are redefined as spiritual issues, I’m not surprised that he’s an atheist now.
I’ve met quite a few atheists who are openly spectrum or obviously on the spectrum, but very few Christians who are. Honestly, I fear for my spectrum kids… This would be so much easier if I was a Calvinist. Then I could just write them off as non-elect if they don’t (or can’t) embrace a faith of their own.
I love Big Bang!!!
Does Sheldon know about the new Homeschoolers Anonymous site?
Why will my family not be attending Easter services? My reason (and I do not mean to offend anybody’s beliefs, nor start a discussion, I’m just stating why we do not go) is “show me where Easter is celebrated in scripture.” Even though I was raised catholic and have been going to Christian churches for years, I consider myself “monotheistic messianic” – that’s the closest I can come for those wanting a label – or as many churches would call me – a “flaming heretic”! 🙂 I would much rather follow the commandments of God than the traditions of men!
Sheldon’s possible “high-functioning autism” might be the consequence of his harsh upbringing. Children in abusive environments need to defend their internal selves and sometimes they do it by dissociating, separating themselves from life (as well as painful parts of themselves) so they can endure. A dissociated person, especially when abuse began young, becomes permanently detached at various levels. It can make one seem dreamy, distanced, pre-occupied, socially inept or confused.
Even after hard years trying to dismantle it, I have ongoing problems. I have come to accept it as just another aspect of psychological damage.
Sheldon, for still being sane, respect. That’s a lot of work, right there.
I’m just going to Easter service to be “nice”. In fact, I won’t be attending the service itself. I will be helping out in children’s during the 1st service and helping out the host team during the 2nd service.
Next year I hope to be attending a church that views Easter Sunday as a time of worship. I hope I don’t get any emails informing me that Easter Sunday is a time catch those people that don’t go to church regularly so I need to volunteer for multiple services so the show can go on. I would like to worship my resurrected Lord instead of being reminded about the church’s market share. I would like to be at a church that took me seriously as a worshiper of God instead of an unpaid employee.
Don’t misunderstand me, it’s not that I’m unwilling to help – I’ve got twenty years of ministry under my belt. I gave it up a year ago and now just help out in areas, but the further away I get from it, the worse it looks.
IFB… Why am I not surprised?
Warwick wrote:
Sometime last year, Rachel Held Evans had a guest post from a Christian woman who grew up with Asperger’s Syndrome:
http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/church-stories-erin-thomas-aspie
Here’s a quote from it that stood out, after a description of suffering from Wretched Urgency:
“We Aspies are notorious for literal thinking – taking at face value what is said, read or written. Thus, it is often recommended that we not participate in organized faith practices because we are too vulnerable to depression, severe anxiety, and even suicidal ideation because of faith-based guilt.”
And I can’t think of a church environment more full of Faith-Based Guilt and Wretched Urgency than an IFB-style church.
I’ll be at church Easter, doing music & celebrating the Risen Christ and his love for me. No condemnation for those who don’t go; no condemnation for those who only go on Easter. Any time we can get together and worship is fine with me, and special celebrations don’t bother me one bit, especially when dinner on the grounds is involved.
I love singing “Christ the Lord is Risen Today” and other Resurrection Day hymns across the spectrum from southern gospel to highbrow to contemporary. Might even get to a sunrise service on the beach. Jesus paid it all — and that’s worth singing about in spite of being highly allergic to the dozens of Easter lilies in the church. In a few minutes, I’m gonna slide onto the piano bench, crank it up loud & belt out “In Your Easter Bonnet” for all the neighbors to complain about.
This year started with the tragic death of a young mom in our family, my sister’s daughter, so it’s not all rainbows and lollipops here. There have been many Easters when I felt no joy, but somehow, even in the midst of this terrible loss and many other difficult circumstances, there is joy for which I am thankful.
Happy Easter, y’all.
@ Dana:
Dana, I’m right there with you. I do attend a small church where the people love the Lord and do strive to worship Him during the church service – it is about God, not about us. The sermons are very good – verse by verse. We don’t have any money – we barely make budget but there is continual growth in ourselves in our knowledge and love of God and scripture as we turn to Him….however…as I read about the celebrity pastors who increasingly get power hungry and money hungry and come up with more and more conferences in which to gain power and money and in which they endorse each other…and begin to see the ministries start crumbling, I really wonder what it is all about. Are we just trying to convince ourselves there is a God? Are we just trying to make sense out this scripture written supposedly by the Holy Spirit? Why all the controversy, why all the hurt people, why all the continued greediness and power…I am truly on the verge of walking away from all of it.
I’m going to church to help out with the cameras and songs. Outside of that, I have very mixed emotions about it. Since the church is in another city, I’ll listen to a book about Paul on CD by Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan as I’m driving there.
I can certainly sympathize with Sheldon. I’m on the autism spectrum too and it manifests itself as I tend to say truthful things at the most inappropriate times. Church is not a good place for truth-telling, I’ve learned.
@ Liz:
Good for you at your small church. The husband and I are currently looking for a church more like yours. We’re just taking our time and not burning any bridges as we go.
@ Southwestern Discomfort:
“Church is not a good place for truth-telling, I’ve learned.” Quote of the year. LOL
Who knows the real reason anyone loses faith? Probably only God.
When I went through it, I blamed others a heaping helping. Truth is, much of what I had endured WAS abusive, toxic church. But then again, I was also suffering through a physical malady that needed a med that could and did cause depression as a side effect. I could have been surrounded by total angels and still found it toxic and lost my faith.
But others that went through the same thing came out with a beautiful, growing, flowering faith. Some left that church to do it, some stayed and fought the system and the abuse.
All I know is resurrection is real, because Jesus gave me back my faith when I wasn’t even seeking it anymore.
I’ve reached the point where I can concede that while I might find something absolutely wrong and toxic, there is the possibility that it is just how I see it. Sort of like with little children–how often do they speak of “mean old mommy or mean old daddy yelled at me” when what mom or dad did was call them back from stepping out in front of truck, or touching a hot stove.
I’m gonna let Jesus sort out the good guys and bad guys. When possible I will find a bunch that seem like good guys and worship with them. If I can’t, I’ll worship at home.
Dee, Deb, are you up for a challenge? What you are doing on TWW needs doing, yes, but how about alternating the posts with posts telling the absolutely stunning beauty and great good deeds of the Bride of Christ?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
This points at the other thing I meant to add last night; ASD folks tend to focus on rules, and can be very rigid; of the few ASD Christians I know, a high percentage are Reformed, with a tendency towards the extremes.
Thanks for this link, HUG. I missed that post, I really like keeping up with stories of aspies & faith. Gives me some hope.
Linda, Have you considered that the good deeds and the stunning beauty of the Bride of Christ is found right here? Through the love and care for those who have been hurt?
Maybe you’re not recognizing it?
Oh my. As I was reading Sheldon’s story, the thought did pop into my head that he sounds autistic. (The special ed teacher part of me popping up.) Interesting comments from different people about autism and organized religion. I can definitely see that.
Southwestern Discomfort – love the truth-telling quote. I had this horrible habit when I was at CLC of saying truthful, or maybe just honest things (e.g. so I’ve been struggling with bitterness lately, or how can I get myself to like people most days?) I do remember a lot of horrified stares.
@ linda:
“I can concede that while I might find something absolutely wrong and toxic, there is the possibility that it is just how I see it. Sort of like with little children….”
Like with the little child whose father is pastor (elder, deacon) and abuses her/sibs secretly at home. “It must be ok,” says the child, ” See how everyone loves my father! See how he talks about God and prays to him! I am just looking at it wrong. I hurt sooo much but it isn’t real. I am making it up.”
And like with the wife who is abused by her husband and even though given gifts by God, is prevented from using them by a system that says she has been created inferior and must endure quietly. “It must be ok,” says the woman. “Pastors say that God made me this way. Leadership agrees. I must deserve how my husband treats me in the secrecy of our home. I am looking at it wrong. I hurt sooo much but it isn’t real. I am making it up.”
Like with the young man who is questioning the authoritarian structure of his church and is disciplined for it. “I am looking at it wrong….”
“We’re gonna let Jesus sort out the good guys and bad guys.” Bye and bye. Until then, think good thoughts too!
The Bride of Christ is here, Linda. Thank God that Deb and Dee (among others) are busy lancing the wounds on her feverish body. That’s what telling the truth is: dismantling the false authority of power-hungry leadership, countering “doctrine” that has forgotten the centrality of Love, holding up the standards of the Great Commandment. Truth is a disinfectant.
“Absolutely stunning beauty and great good deeds” occur here, too. Anywhere there is love-in-action, right? The most offensive part of your comment is that you do not see it. I wish you mercy, generosity and clarity so that you can.
Mandy wrote:
I can’t comment from direct personal experience on the ASD / church experience, but I did spend many years with undiagnosed ADHD, attending a strongly hierarchical church in which everybody was expected to play their part in resourcing the leader’s aspirations. (Ironically, that same leader once said that “a good leader will serve his church; a bad leader will make his church serve him”. Living proof, etc.)
Neither ADHD nor ASD are psychiatric disorders and they cannot, as far as I have thus discovered, be “cured” (though one can learn to manage either condition to a greater or lesser degree). And we certainly can’t be “cured” by a simplistic “healing”, nor is there a simple “sin” of which we need to “repent”. But here’s the point. All of these are directed at the fact that we are not conveniently useful to the culture of the congregation in which we find ourselves. “A local church” is almost never representative of the local church, but rather is an isolated subset of local believers who have gathered around some purpose that appeals to them for one reason or another.
I’m sorry to sound like a stuck record on this one… but I’m still searching for the local church.
I tell people, it wasn’t science that caused me to leave christianity behind, it was christians. While arguing with the YECs on various websites I realized that they would rather tell a lie than concede even the smallest point. I refuse to be associated with liars, even when they are “liars for jesus”.
Regarding forcing women to marry their rapists, the sanction is against the rapist, not the woman. The punishment is that he has to marry her (and may not divorce her). It does not say what will happen if the woman (or, I suppose, her father in a patriarchal society) objects to the marriage. Tamar was not forced to marry her rapist.
I’m not an expert on such things, but I suspect the culture here is vastly different. What is the fate of a rape victim in a patriarchal society that values virginity and where a woman’s survival depends in her ability to have a man take care if her? I assume it isn’t very encouraging. In effect, it sounds to me like the law is forcing the rapist to take responsibility for providing for the woman he has essentially condemned.
I think a huge difference between our culture and the culture of the OT is our freedom to marry for affection and love, not the source of our survival (especially for women).
I don’t know if that’s a full answer (I suspect many or most women would prefer death to marriage to her rapist), but I think a lot of the OT laws are hard to comprehend because the culture was so vastly different. And it strikes me that groups like VF want to return to the culture that the OT law fits in, rather than recognizing that that culture was something that God worked in, not approved.
“We’re gonna let Jesus sort out the good guys and bad guys.”
This also begs the question if we are good guys or not. I hear this idea a lot and it breaks my heart. It is basically saying, if Jesus cares enough, He will deal with the bad guys. But the problem is Jesus gave us the means to do these things ourselves with the guiding Holy Spirit (of truth). Care for others, expose evil, etc. It is much easier and sounds pious to say, let Jesus handle it. But it is a cop out, too.
@ Anon 1:
“If Jesus cares enough, He will deal with the bad guys.” Maybe it’s an attitude falling from the so-called “doctrines of grace”? If God controls and doles good/evil for His/Her final purpose, and if we humans are completely effed-up and can do nothing good in ourselves, then how could any other than Jesus sort out the good and bad guys?
Yup, in the end, it’s an abdication of human responsibility for discernment and caring for each other. When we do neither, we do not mature, our relationships decline into destruction, and our communities revolve around those with the most power. We become people who never leave the primitive structures of high school.
I suppose there’s a small point in framing it as “good guys bad guys” since it is only God who sees the hearts, and evaluates the persons themselves. Whereas our obligation is to evaluate behaviors and not go John Wayne.
Funny, though, that many who make this type of statement are eager to “sort out the good guys and bad guys” regarding doctrinal purity and obedience to authority. I hope it’s not true for Linda.
@ nmgirl:
I feel that way too. If a person will not concede an apparent lie, it is pointless to engage them on any issue because there are no ground rules.
I find “liars for Jesus” even more repellent because they lie while saying they fight the “Father of Lies”. A lie on top of a lie, left lying. Bah.
Mandy wrote:
But they have no problem using the technology that science makes possible. Oh well.
“I’m going to let Jesus sort out the good guys and bad guys.”
Huh?
Patrice wrote:
This thinking of “let God handle it” is all over sgmsurvivors which is why I cannot read there often. And we wonder why SGM was able to grow and stay in business for so long.
@ Anon 1: You will not believe that new charges that are coming out re: SGM. Loftness is being named by a new *alleged* victims of sexual abuse. There are also reports of ongoing *criminal* investigations on unnamed pastor/teacher. This thing is exploding.
“let God handle it” The thinking that God will magically deal with a situation or a person/persons is absurd. It’s also a cop out. It’s like what I heard so many times from people, “pray about it.” Why do you need to pray about the obvious unless you are using that for an excuse. It’s all bs…
@ Anon 1:
Ach. Maybe they’re still hurting/spinning, trying to protect themselves, etc? Maybe they’re still emotional/mental teenagers and it’ll take a while? Or is that too optimistic? It’s sad because learning to stand straight and firm is the cleanest/quickest way to heal not only themselves but also those around them. There must not be more mature people who are helping them along over there. Or they aren’t listening to them. (Shan’t check. Too toxic.)
The dysfunctional groups exposed on this blog are new to me since I’d left the church decades ago. There are so many of them (the acronyms keep confusing me lol)! And each bunch is made of how many individuals?! Where are the wise people?
I’m glad the sun is shining and I can smell the earth and hear the birds, and that tomorrow is Easter, my favorite holiday, or I’d feel dumpish.
Anon 1, I wish you and everyone else here the best Easter ever! I am grateful to have found you.
Patrice,
I can tolerate a lot and have a lot of compassion for victims. But when the victims spend most of their time discussing how they are praying for the leaders to see the light and change so they can still be their leaders….I’m done with them. The depth of brainwashing is out of my league on that one. They are like children who want mommy and daddy to stop abusing them. But they are not children. They go to work and making livings. They can think, act, do. I can understand discussing how this came to be and how they were sucked in to it. Many of us have been at some point. But when the evil has been proved and you have tons of evidence, it points to a bigger problem when they still cling to them as their leaders or they run to find other leaders to follow. It is enabling all the bad stuff over and over that gets to me. The not growing up part. And the refusing to hear other doctrinal views besides the ones they have been immersed in.
You bring a wisdom here that is much appreciated. We cling to the fact that He is Risen! It is a sunny day here and I have been enjoying it immensely. I brought my laptop to the park with my wifi while the kids are hunting eggs.
@ stormy:
I don’t understand this thinking either. What is the Church supposed to be busy doing in the name of Jesus? What is the function of the Church universal? Is it to be hiding sin, manipulating people, gathering tithes into the coffers, writing additional doctrines, suppressing the truth, standing up for abusers, misusing money, etc ., etc.? Good grief, no! The Church is to be doing the exact opposite. God has given His Church the charge to live opposite of what we see taking place in many religious organizations today. Individual believers must not stick their heads in the sand, as they are the Church . . .
dee wrote:
Seriously? With the level of secrecy within the movement any discussion of the negative being taught as “gossip”, I am wondering just how deep it goes before it comes out. It can take years to penetrate such things as we saw with the Catholic church scandal. People just don’t talk that easily about such things when they have been shamed into keeping it secret or they are in sin.
I do wonder if the Reformed movement will ever acknowledge the problem with SGM? How bad does it have to get?
Anon 1 wrote:
In my limited experience, no.
In our case, the friends of the alleged abuser, who brought him into contact with our child absolutely refused to accept that there was anything to the allegations. We were obviously lying. He might have had a rough upbringing, with an abusive, alcoholic mother, and developmental issues, but there was no way that he abused our son. The police believed my son (because at age 5, in spite of telling the details to different officers over the period of a few days, his story was the same every time), but the alleged abuser’s friends wouldn’t.
I think that people would rather go with the cognitive dissonance than accept that the people they’ve fellowshipped with and publicly promoted could be responsible for something so heinous.
Ny spouse and I are both ordained, formerly active Baptists, in lay leadership positions in several churches over more than 30 years. Church has become a place where conflict seems inevitable. We missed Christmas services, but celebrated at home, and we will not be in church building on Easter, but may go and have our own sunrise celebration if the weather is amenable. One year we took the kids and went to Enchanted Rock in the Texas Hill Country, and reached the summit near dawn. Another time, as young marrieds, we hosted a sunrise service for young adults in our church, in a part by a river, followed by breakfast at our townhouse apartment. Now we sometimes go to a nearby Presby but the music is not to our taste even though the preaching requires a wide awake brain and intellectual effort. So we will not be there either.
@ dee: I’m not surprised. (Though I wish I was…)
I *so* wish my SGM friends would get out now, but the intense loyalty that system engenders runs very deep. I wonder, though, if their brains are going to implode, given the new stuff.
Unfortunately, I have been in other places where there were severe abuses – financial and predatory sexual behavior (toward adults)- so… I’m thinking that the roots run very, very deep. It all reminds me of that giant fungus in Oregon that was discovered a number of years back.
numo wrote:
I see the loyalty system infiltrating the SBC so fast it is making my head spin….I remember the old days when the deacon body made sure a pastor didn’t get too much power, now it’s like the deacons don’t want to be bothered….it’s just too much trouble….
@ Warwick Rendell:
“I think that people would rather go with the cognitive dissonance than accept that the people they’ve fellowshipped with and publicly promoted could be responsible for something so heinous.”
They also prefer to sacrifice children rather than face the darkness of their hearts, these people who believe in depravity but use it merely as a tool for control. I am sorry, Warwick. I hope your son is doing ok.
Reminds me of Leonard Cohen’s “Story of Isaac”:
…You who build these altars now
To sacrifice these children
You must not do it anymore
A scheme is not a vision
And you never have been tempted
By a demon or a God
…And if you call me brother now
Forgive me if I inquire
“Just according to whose plan?”
When it all comes down to dust
I will kill you if I must
I will help you if I can
K.D. wrote:
Bingo. I remember those days too. they are over. Now it is cult of personality.
Patrice wrote:
Thanks Patrice.
He’s 12 now. Fortunately, the circumstances weren’t too extreme, and it was a one-off event vs ongoing, and he seems to have come through it relatively unscathed.
@ Warwick Rendell:
I often wonder will the architects of the SBC FUNDAMENTALIST Political Takeover ever repent of what they have done to the SBC. IMO it is only a ghost of a once great organization where people who did not believe exactly cooperated with each other to attempt to share the Gospel in the US and around the world. The leaders left in the SBC are too busy trying to fight with each over doctrinal purity–whatever that is.
@ Bridget Sat March 20
I totally agree. That’s why I believe that most who go to “church” are not even saved at all. Church for most is a social club, a place to get narcissistic supply, be a pharisee,control people, use people, materialism and the list goes on. It’s still no different than it was in my late teens.It’s just worse now. It never made any since to me when people said that they loved Jesus but were totally indifferent to others.Now I see that they were and are frauds.
At the risk of violating TWW’s prime directive of compassion for victims, I could find myself exiled parsecs past the outer perimeter (for this comment) where I’d have only Jimmy for company. It is hoped that TWW will recognize that critique and lack of compassion are not one and the same.
I find it hard to commiserate with those who cite YEC (young earth creationism) or the tribal shamanism of rabid Baptist preachers as deal breakers for their faith. We Americans can be so insular and provincial. And it works to our detriment. It makes us blind and inured to a much wider world of human experience.
Reading the writings of Elie Wiesel and other holocaust survivors and how they’d clandestinely whisper their Hebrew prayers in the death camps and say Kaddish for the dead, has given me pause for much of what passes as loss of faith in American Christianity.
“…I have not lost faith in God. I have moments of anger and protest. Sometimes I’ve been closer to him for that reason…” Elie Wiesel
@ Muff Potter:
Interesting that you mention Wiesel. I just picked up “Night” last evening to read. It’s a book my daughter is reading for school but I have never read. I don’t know if I’ll make it to the end.
Muff
You always know how to bring home such good points. The quote by Weisel was beautiful.
@ stormy:
Yes, some are that way. I’m convinced that not “all” fit that mold though. I also believe that some are simply indifferent, and others are sincerely convinced of what they believe . . . I just don’t agree with them. Jesus is the rise King!
Muff, One of the most “spiritual” books I have found is a secret I keep from the evangelicals in my ghetto because it was written by Victor Frankl, a Jewish Psychiatrist who went to the camps. They would not get it and most would be appalled because he was not a “Christian”.
I find in it, the truth about how God wants us to live and view the future. I might not “live for” the same things he mentions but that aspect of how to survive a crisis is crucial.
It would not be appreciated in the determinist god camp, either.
Anon 1 – Frankl’s book is an outstanding example of the power of forgiveness to set the forgiver free, and should be made available to everyone fleeing an abusive church. It is a cruel myth that forgiving SGM, MH or wherever else somehow lets the abusers off the hook and that They win if you forgive Them. Nothing could be further from the truth.
@ Muff Potter:
Muff, I agree that YEC and a rabid pastor or two are not “adequate reasons” to completely leave God. It might keep outsiders from taking a look in, but is only the usual stupidity that happens in extremist corners of any human pursuit.
That said, I would suppose that the deal-breaker isn’t one issue. For eg, the scientist who comes across YEC, also finds a pervasive contempt for general science and also for integrity of thought and logic, which would be reflected throughout the YEC community. And that type of community will likely be rigid and judgemental and indulge in lying.
Re Wiesel/Frankl: The most dismantling kind of trauma is that which takes place in intimate relationship, from people one knew and trusted. The worst of it is done to a child via parental figures or adult relatives. In those cases, the very structure of love is trashed. What it means, how it looks, etc.
It is different than the Holocaust trauma which was perpetrated by people they didn’t really know and was indifferent to the individual. Of course, it was just terrible and death for millions. And it threw up the apparent absence of God in the face of the hideousness of man, which is the central issue that needs resolving in order to come to peace with any trauma, should one survive.
But the additional layer of trashing in an intimate relationship interferes with one’s ability to even know what it might look like to be properly loved. That can intrude on one’s ability to see a loving God or what that would even mean. A clear example of this conflict: seeing God as a Father when it was one’s own father who did the abuse.
@ Patrice: I’m not sure that it *was* perpetrated by people “they didn’t know.”
Because everyone who did not fight against it was complicit, and Nazi sympathies were extremely pervasive. The mistake = so tragic – was the German Jewish community’s belief that it had truly become an assimilated part of German society.
The people who betrayed their neighbors, their relatives, their friends, their business associates – sometimes even spouses and children – to the authorities were absolutely complicit. Silence was complicity; so was informing in order to save one’s own neck, and plenty of people did the latter.
@ numo:
Yeah, numo, you’re right. The Holocaust wasn’t a generic behemoth; many times, intimate abuse was layered into it.
I will say that complicity by community/neighbors is usual fare for the traumatized (quick eg Warwick and his son), although wildly extreme for the Jewish people in Hitler’s Germany. That creates a loss of safety/security regarding community/society, as well as ongoing difficulties in asking others for help.
I guess my main point was that intimate abuse most seriously impedes one’s path to God, wherever it happens, and especially when it happens in childhood. I think God takes that into account.
"I'm convinced that not "all" fit that mold though." I've been to a lot of churches and they all fit that mold.Even the ones that I've never been to but know about. Maybe there are a possible few (and I stress few) that may be different but they are far and few in between, if they are even out there.
numo and Patrice,
You both make salient points and I agree with them.
Dee and Deb- Happy Easter!
Dee these are a must see:
https://vine.co/v/bIbZpvg0qEp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgDI716hgzs
Muff Potter wrote:
I’m sorry that any one would feel driven away from the Christian faith over YEC (or were mistreated by YEC adherents – again, I happen to be YEC but don’t brow beat people if they are not), but I feel the same way about the first half of what you said.
Some Christians reconcile their beliefs of evolution or old earth with a belief in God by way of theistic evolution. I don’t know why someone would feel their only alternative is atheism all because they cannot accept a literal six day creation.
I’m a little more sympathetic with the second reason. One thing that can drive someone away from the faith is how they see people who claim to profess it treat others.
I have a few different reasons why I am having a hard time holding on to the Christian faith, and that is one of them (how Christians treat myself or how I see them treat others), but not the only one.
I truly tried living out the Christian faith. I didn’t judge people when they came to me hurting and needing sympathy. I gave concrete help to people needing assistance (as opposed to cliches, Bible quotes, or platitudes) to people if I could.
But since some very painful things happened to me in the last few years, other Christians did not show those same qualities to me (and I even got the opposite at times, judgement and blame rather than encouragement or compassion).
When you see most Christians you bump into not actually living the faith (they quote pretty words but don’t do anything to actually help you when you need it), it does make you wonder, if Christianity doesn’t work (it doesn’t seem to produce change in people who profess it, or make them show more compassion), if it doesn’t produce any real change in people, why bother with it?
I’ve noticed in the last few years a lot of Christians I have met personally or turned to for help since I hit a rough patch, have been in violation of James 2:16, or they commit Proverbs 25:20, or fail to carry out Romans 12:15.
Then of course you come to blogs such as this one and others and see all these stories of judgmental or evil pastors or church members who take advantage of people, even children, in their midst.
I don’t know how many of these guys are wolves in sheeps clothing or never trusted Christ to start with, or what, but when Christianity appears to be so ineffective, or those who profess it don’t even try to live by their founder’s teachings, it can create doubts.
Daisy wrote:
Because people are told that is their only alternative.
Jeff S wrote:
YEC is considered a nonnegotiable by certain leaders like Ken Ham. He links it to the doctrine of the atonement. Do you see where this is going? If you deny the doctrine of the atonement, you deny the central event in the faith.
So, a scientist is left with an untenable choice. On one side is YEC and the doctrine of the atonement. On the other is massive amounts of proof of an old earth. Guess which ones the honest scientist must accept?
That is why this is hot button issue for me. To tie salvation to young earth creationism is despicable.
Dee, I think the tie is heretical. Jesus did not teach that we have to believe in YEC to be a follower of his. Paul never said you have to believe YEC to get to heaven. So Ham is deliberately adding a requirement to salvation, just as did the judiazers (sp?), which is that Jesus is not enough! I think that is heresy plain and simple.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
dee wrote:
One point of clarification, I only spent my elementary school years in the IFB school, (later went on to the Assembly of God, then Southern Baptist organizations).
My sister wasn’t so fortunate, she felt for it hard, went onto Hyles-Anderson/FBC Hammond after graduating high school. I’m so glad she left the IFB behind about 3 years ago.
@ Muff Potter:
Muff Potter wrote:
YEC wasn’t the deal breaker, it was one of many factors. The Bible itself, as I said, the Old Testament barbarity and the moral implications of that, plus some things I found rather disgusting about many evangelical/fundamentalist churches, such as rejection of homosexuality, hostility towards people of other religions, etc.
@ Anon 1:
Hester wrote:
Bazinga! Yes, I have heard of it. I’ve found that telling my story on my blog and talking with other former fundamentalist bloggers (whether they are atheists or liberal Christians now), to be a great way to get the healing process going.
Re: what muff said–
Yec as faith deal breaker — a result of Christian culture’s “in the bible we trust” which in practice is much weightier than “in God we trust”.
Am I too late to the conversation?
Muff Potter wrote:
Mandy wrote:
It is hard for people with mental illness. There’s so much misunderstanding and prejudice that I have personally experienced. I have heard people and pastors say that worry/anxiety is a “sin” or a sign of not having a right relationship with god (my own family has told me this to my face when they found out about me having depression). I have heard people say that their depression got better after more prayer and focusing on others more (implying that depression is just rampant narcissism).
It’s sad, really that many churches aren’t catching up with the times, and science, and recognizing that mental illness is real, and caused primarily by biological factors.
mot wrote:
How can those Who Can Do No Wrong ever repent? Repentance is for those REAL sinners outside of the Inner Ring…
The Communists called it “Ideological Purity”.
dee wrote:
According to most of the blogs I’ve read, “YEC Uber Alles” is the number-one reason cited for both joining the Nones and/or going atheist upon adulthood.
But then, Reality cannot be allowed to contaminate Purity of Ideology.
Patrice wrote:
Wasn’t “sacrifice children” the main beef the Bible had about Baal-Molech? Except Baal-Molech just burned children alive without raping them first.
Arce
Hmmm…..Heretical and despicable kind of go together.
HUG
Thank you for confirming my observations about the blogosphere.
I’ve read, “YEC Uber Alles” is the number-one reason cited for both joining the Nones and/or going atheist upon adulthood.
People get on my case about my incessant beatingof the drum on this issue. But,keeping people from experiencing God because they do not subscribe to YEC breaks my heart and makes me mad at the same time.
Sheldon
Thank you so much for sharing your story with us.I am sorry for the way things went for you in the IFB.
I have also heard it preached that if someone has anxiety/worry and depression is a sin. Well, it’s not… I also don’t see it as “mental illness.” The “mental illness” stigma is made up by humans, not God and the “sin” stigma is made up by the Pharisees(humans). It is a normal reaction for any human to have anxiety, depression and so on when someone has had traumatic events in their life. Heck, living in this world alone with not so traumatic events could bring it on.It is just part of the human condition. The Pharisees who say it is “sin” have these issues too. They just hide them.
Daisy wrote:
When you have been raised and taught that this is the only way a true Christian can believe then you find out it’s a bunch of hooey science, well if it’s the only way then it is an easy step to walking out the door.
Just a note. I have no problem with people who say the earth is young and God created it via a miracle. (Well I do but it’s not a fighting situation.) But when they start heaping on science that just isn’t science that’s when I say “STOP”. And if you’re raised in that situation and you start studying science for real it’s very easy to exit stage left with few regrets.
I haven’t had time to read all the comments; but as far as YEC, since I wasn’t there at the dawn of time, I can’t get exercised about it one way or the other, and I don’t allow it to affect my faith.
For your amusement… I had a college anthropology professor who said that when someone would state they were a Christian and thus did not believe in evolution, he would ask them to elaborate, and they would invariably say they didn’t believe people came from monkeys. He would then reply that he too is a Christian, he doesn’t believe people came from monkeys, because monkeys come from monkeys, apes come from apes, and people come from Los Angeles.
@ stormy: There’s anxiety and anxiety, and depression and depression.
Anxiety disorder is a real thing; so is clinical depression. Neither are a sin, and people who suffer with these things should not be stigmatized.
There are treatments, and I personally do not see much difference in seeking treatment for depression (or whatever else) and seeking treatment for diabetes, heart disease, strep throat [add illness].
We all do experience anxiety and depression as humans – but for some of us, it can be extremely intense. I wish someone would come up with a better term for that; “mental illness” doesn’t really cover it, as these things have bases in biology/neurology.
sometimes depression is a physical reaction to medical procedures – ask anyone who’s been on bypass.
Numo, I didn’t say anxiety and depression were “sin.” That physical reaction that you speak of is what I believe to be a normal mental reaction that any one could have after anything major that has happened in ones life.
@ stormy: Sorry for any confusion; I didn’t mean to imply that you said they were “sin.”
Mental illness – well, yes, in their more extreme forms.
Again, my apologies.
Thanks, Numo.
“Mental illness-well, yes, in their more extreme forms.” Of course I disagree but just wondering were the proof is since psychiatry is not an exact science and humans can only understand so much about the mind. There are things that psychologists don’t get but that I understand.
@ StillWiggling:Funny comment. Many Christians do not let YEC affect their faith. The problem is for those exploring the faith. It is a hindrance.
@ stormy: Just wanted to say that there really are organic, biological bases (changes in brain chemistry, etc.) re. clinical depression and its like.
I do know for a fact that meds *can* help, so long as the doc prescribing knows what they’re doing; also so long as they’ve done a good physical workup on a patient (to look for other causes), and keep up-to-date and apprised of the patient’s physical state.
Medicine isn’t an “exact” science, but it is science nonetheless. and the intersection of body and mind can be difficult, if not impossible, to separate and dissect.
Just my .02-worth… having seen good effects from meds/therapy in my own life and in the lives of a number of others, including someone suffering from severe clinical depression.
@ stormy: Just to clarify:
psychiatrists are MDs.
Psychologists are not.
I doubt anyone in either profession – at least, those who are decent folks – would claim that they deal in exact science and “exact” answers or treatments. (As in any other profession, there are some arrogant and demanding people… and I don’t ever want to deal with such!)
“psychiatrists are MDs” I know.
Numo, Anxiety and depression obviously have physiological components. But that doesn’t mean anxiety and depression are biologically based. It starts from another source.
stormy wrote:
Hi Stormy,
Personally, I don’t believe that most aren’t saved. Some may not be, but unless I knew “all” these people personally I can’t really throw them all out with the bath water. I believe “many” are being led astray from our Lord Jesus Christ and are following after man and his doctrines, but this doesn’t necessarily mean they are not believers. It seems that false teachers might have more to answer to than those who are naively following them.
@ Dee:
Off topic, but my latest Big Box post is up. It has a song with it this time! ; ) Also, what are the rules for your blogroll and would you consider putting Scarlet Letters on it since it is a reader’s/regular commenter’s blog?
http://scarletlettersblog.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/how-modern-churches-are-harming-families-tbb/
@ Hester:
I meant to put it up. I am sorry. Going up now.
@ numo:
Scotland’s foremost clinician specialising in adult ADHD, whom I met the other day, described ADHD itself very accurately (I thought) as “an extreme of norm”. In other words, everybody at some point, and to a limited extent, experiences all of the symptoms of ADHD.
Being human, I have good and bad moods. But I also had depression for a few months when I was studying for my first degree (almost certainly a co-morbidity of ADHD). Though not severe, it was definitely clinical, so I know there’s a big difference. A bit like the difference between a sore hamstring and a torn hamstring (ooyah).
“Personally, I don’t believe that most aren’t saved.” So people can act any way they want and call themselves a Christian. They don’t have to take personal responsibility for themselves because it’s the doctrine that has made them the way they are.
@ Nick Bulbeck: Exactly! (Your hamstring analogy.)
@ stormy: OK, one last try – I am talking about clinical depression and anxiety disorders, not plain old anxiety or sadness.
LOL, Numo, I’m talking about that too.
@ stormy: Hey, we’re almost there, no? 😉
To my way of thinking, brain’s production of neurotransmitters on the fritz = a biological basis for many things that fall under “mental illness.”
Hope that makes sense!
Numo / Stormy – looks like you’ve been violently agreeing with one another… 🙂
Neurotransmitter deficiency is the most convincing explanation I’ve seen for the underlying mechanism of ADHD. I like the phrase “extreme of norm” – actually, anything that is normal but drawn out to an extreme is likely to create something that is conspicuously a disorder.
A friend’s Easter remembrance really touched me this morning:
http://www.baptiststoday.org/cartledge-blog/2013/4/1/someone-remembered.html
Numo, I don’t see major depression or major anxiety as a mental illness. Yes, it may be more of the extreme version but again, “mental illness” is a made up word from the psych community concerning these two issues. The psych community has made up a lot of dumb things and people buy into them because they are the supposive “experts” on the mind.They don’t know all.It’s like looking to a pastor as though he has all the answers to everything spiritual . Man is limited on what he knows.
I have read were now they are trying to say that if you grieve more than 3 months then that it mental illness. So what I’m saying is that you can’t believe everything they say. Again, dep and anx do have physiological components but that is during or after the fact, not before.
stormy
You said es, ” but again, “mental illness” is a made up word from the psych community concerning these two issues.” Why do you believe it is a made up word?
@ stormy:
I really do not understand your perspective on depression and anxiety.
I agree they are not in themsleves sin, though people with them can sin by not dealing with them appropriately. Being depressed is not a license to hurt people who love you without consequence.
I don’t at all understand why you’d say “mental illness” is a made up word. All words are made up, but this describes something very real. Call it what you want, but people get depressed and the extreme cases are not issues that will go away over time unless the depressed person takes responsbility and seeks treatment.
I say this as a man who divorced his wife who suffered from both depression and anxiety. I spent a lot of time as I was trying to help her through it around a LOT of people who suffer from depression. Some people took responsbility and were able to continue on with their lives- many did not and lost most of their closest relationships. I still meet weekly with a guy I meat at a mental hospital whose wife still struggles with depression, but she is faithful to her treatment program and they thus far have been able to keep the marriage afloat.
stormy wrote:
I didn’t say that believers don’t have to take personnel responsibility, or that they can act however they want, or that the doctrine made them the way they are (though we can be shaped by faulty doctrine).
You partially quoted me. This is what I said –
Bridget wrote:
Believers are all at different places in their relationship with God. Yet, God is working His spiritual image into all believers. As I myself can attest, I don’t align perfectly at all times with Christian behavior. You might encounter me at times and think, “Hmmm, she isn’t behaving like I would expect a believer to behave.” I suppose you could write me off immediately as a liar and an unbeliever. But is that the appropriate response to someone you don’t know well? And, yes, the specific behavior does make a difference. Read the story of Simon the former sorcerer. He is a believer, yet says some foolish (young in his knowledge of the Lord) things and is rebuked. However, he is not called an unbeliever 🙂
All this being said, I think there are times when people’s behaviors and unrepentant stances should cause us to treat someone as an unbeliever. But this would all be done within a “relational” context because I know this person one on one. It also doesn’t have to mean that I now have NO relationship with this person. I’m reminded that Jesus loved, showed compassion to, and spent a lot of his time with sinners/unbelievers.
Dee, they make a false diagnoses and call it “mental illness.” That’s what I meant by they made it up.
@ Bridget:
“And, yes, the specific behavior does make a difference. Read the story of Simon the former sorcerer. He is a believer, yet says some foolish (young in his knowledge of the Lord) things and is rebuked. However, he is not called an unbeliever.”
That’s funny because all the Calvinists I ever read used Simon the sorcerer as their prime example of a false conversion. They took Acts 8:20-23 to mean that his heart was not converted (“you have neither part nor portion in this matter, because your heart is not right in the sight of God”; “you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity”). I’m not saying I necessarily agree with them but that’s what I read.
Jeff, Oh my gosh, seriously… I never said it wasn’t real and never have I said that people shouldn’t seek help for it. Were did you read that in my posts?
stormy wrote:
I didn’t say that you did- I said I was confused about what you were trying to say, then I stated some things that I think are very important about this topic to try and clarify your point.
Bridget, This is were I disagree. It’s one thing to be growing in your faith then stumbling and getting back up.Being remorseful for how you have hurt others,etc. It’s another issue when your fruits prove who you are. I use to give people passes but no more. They are who they are.It has nothing to do with compassion.If someone consistently acts like a jerk(year after year)then that’s who they are.If someone acts like a Pharisee(year after year)then that’s who they are. What I’m looking at is a consistent pattern of behavior that tells me that this person is not who they claim to be. A flower is a flower.A tree is a tree. A flower can never be a tree and a tree can never be a flower. Therefore if someone proves themselves to be something other than what they proclaim, than that’s who they are.
Jeff, Ok
@ Hester:
I know they do Hester. Here is the thing, does the scripture itself say that? The scripture itself says that he was a believer 🙂 and no where does it say that Simon was not a believer. I am finding, in my own church as well and from the pulpit, that things are said — that are actually not what the scripture says. People who preach are sending the scripture through their own doctrinal bent to espouse the conclusion that they think is correct. They need to let the scripture speak for itself. Read the entire passage yourself and see what you determine. It is interesting to relisten to sermons and read the text yourself.
@ stormy:
Did you miss the last paragraph of my response? I think we are essentially saying the same thing. It’s just that not “all” people are in that category which is why it is important to me only to make determinations about those we know and can plainly see. There are many people in churches that know nothing different than that church and its leaders. I would want all of them to be discerning, but it’s possible that they have beem taught NOT to discern, NOT to question, even NOT to read the bible and expect God to reveal truth to them.
Bridget, the difference is that you believe that most people in the church are believers and I believe that they are the minority. “personally, I don’t believe that most aren’t saved.”
Hester wrote:
Perhaps my prime example of a false conversion is, by contrast, Diotrephes – a man who has not only given an appearance of conversion but has risen through the ranks to the point of having significant influence over a local body of believers. Nevertheless his primary concern is his own status. Perhaps, at the time John wrote about him, Diotrephes had a well-polished sales pitch about how he loved Jesus and about how many people were coming to know Jesus under his ministry serving Jesus which was all about Jesus and glorifying Jesus.
Did I mention Jesus?
Oh, and there’s Judas, of course. He was called into apostleship, by Jesus himself; but there was definitely something not quite right about him.
On reflection, since Judas went out healing the sick and casting out demons and was clearly highly gifted and anointed of God, perhaps we should pay no attention to the attacks of wounded scriptures gossiping about him.
@ stormy:
I see what you believe.
What I believe is that I don’t have the right to make a judgement about the salvation of “most” of the people in churches because I don’t know the “mosts” and where they are with God. I am not the judge of the “mosts.”
@ Nick Bulbeck:
As a plug for Jeff Crippen’s book “A Cry For Justice”, the original title was “The Search for Diotrephes”. He makes the case that Ditrephes is (one) Bibilical example of an abuser exhibiting the traits of abusers that non-Christians have already figured out, but Christians seem to ignore. A sense of entitlement and a desire to control others for personal gain with no respect to those they hurt.
Interestingly enough, this is a discussion I’ve had with Jeff C before and he takes Stormy’s side, while I personally tend to be a little more optimistic about the rank and file pew sitter like Bridget is. I do think Simon was a false convert, though.
Bridget, You are giving others the benefit of the doubt but I just see it for what it is. “I’m not the judge of the “mosts.” Neither am I but we are suppose to discern. People are attracted to those who are like them.Therefore, they go to churches that resemble who they are.
@ Jeff S:
You can read the story of Simon and call him a false convert? He was counted among the believers and baptized. He desired a good thing but was wrong about how be could obtain the gifts of God. He was sorry and repentant to boot. He asked to be prayed for. No where is he callled a false convert. It would be nice to hear your take on that passage.
stormy wrote:
I would say that your last two sentances are presuppositions. By your standards I am not a believer. I, of course, know this is not true. I know what Jesus did for me and mankind, was baptized, and filled with the Holy Spirit. Just because I attend church and don’t agee with all I see, doesn’t mean I desire to be like the leaders. For that matter, I’m sure they don’t desire all they see in me either. I can’t agree with you on those two statements. Besides, believers grow and change . . . are new creatures in Christ Jesus and are working out their sanctification for the rest of their lives. I didn’t suddenly arrive where I am as a believer.
@ stormy:I know I am entering this conversation late, but who is the “they” who make false diagnoses. Most psychologists and psychiatrists that I have known have been very straightforward and accurate in their perceptions. Perhaps you are referring to a specific group of people? I apologize for not following this.
@ Bridget:I feel like I am backing into this conversation so please forgive me if I am not making sense. I think I am with you in this conversation.
I take the Bible verse “Judge not lest you be judged” to be talking directly towards salvation. We are called to judge all the time-adultery is wrong, eating 5000 calories a day will make one fat, etc. But, when it come to salvation, that is waaaay above my pay grade.
I bet you there are people out there who do not think I am a Christian for exposing difficult things within the faith. There are people who do not think my doctrine is “up to snuff.”
I can also say that I have often felt different than many in the churches that I have attended. I ask way too many questions and tend to look at Bible verses a bit differently. I totally flunked Precepts because of the colored pencils.
I know some people who came out of horrible circumstances. I would say that their behavior, outwardly, sure looked dicey for a number of years but the Spirit was slowly slicing through their spirit. I tend to see the glimmer of His life in the darkest of circumstances.
I have watched the ardent believer turn away from the faith and seen the greatest of cynics turn on his deathbed.
@ Nick Bulbeck:On Judas, we have the verse that says it would have been better if he had never been born.That does not portend well.
@ Bridget: I like your answer here. In fact, I had this very conversation this morning with someone who has left SGM>
Bridget wrote:
This is so very, very true. Many feel that they are following the Scriptures because that is how it is presented to them. Unscrupulous leaders will twist Scripture to further their positions. There is a reason that Jesus says that teachers will be judged more harshly.
Bridget wrote:
I like how you quoted this. It says to treat them as if they were an unbeliever, not that they are unbelieivers.
@ numo: I believe that many mental disorders have their roots in chemical imbalances.
It reminds me of the “pain loop.” This is an interesting phenomenon in which a person with legitimate pain, let’s say, a crushed bone, continues to feel the pain after the injury is healed. By rights, there should not be pain since healing has occurred.
However, the nerves are firing on all cylinders and have been doing so for quite awhile. It’s as if they cannot turn themselves off. There are drugs that can treat this, some of them are psychotropic drugs. It is obvious that there is a major nerve component to this issue. So, to say it is a “sin” would be ridiculous.
I believe that this happens all the time in the psyche. As my daughter’s neurosurgeon used to say to me “I feel like a caveman when I am operating on the brain.” Since he was one of the best pediatric neurosurgeons in the country, I think he speaks truth.
People used to say that epileptics were demon possessed. We need to be careful that we don’t do that with what we term psychiatric conditions. But I know we are on the same page here.
@ Bridget:The Puritan Board here
http://www.puritanboard.com/f44/contradiction-simons-conversion-acts-8-13-a-58577/
would agree with you.
@ stormy:I would be cautious on a sweeping generalization on this regard. On occasion, you are correct. But not always. Post partum depression/psychosis is one area which is strongly tied to a physical event. Also there are people who have been depressed or anxious for their entire lives with no known exaggerated stressors.
I think it is important to make sure that well trained professionals are involved. I know a number of well trained psychiatrists who are also deeply committed Christians. Some have been the heads of major institutions. I think that there is too much of the nouthetic counseling nonsense invading our churches and it is dangerous.
dee wrote:
Dee! I spewed my diet Vernors. Oh, I am with you there!
“on occasion,you are correct.But not always.” You can say the same for everybody here.Including yourself.Just because some of my views are different, it doesn’t necessarily make me wrong. I never said that nobody should not seek help, never.I’m not completely against therapy. But like in every profession there are good and bad. Get into the hands of a bad therapist, it just makes things worse.
Bridget, I said what I believe and don’t feel the need to elaborate on it anymore.
@ stormy:I think you misread my intent and I am sorry. What I meant is that there is sometimes a purely psychological reason for mental illness. Sometimes there is not. MOst often there is a combination. Also, just because something starts off with a psychological basis does not mean it should be treated purely as such.
Case in point: There was a young boy at a former school who had a bad case of asthma. The asthma was exacerbated with stressful situations. Gym was that stressful situation. The kid would often get a serious asthma attack when forced to participate.
I became concerned one day when I saw the PE teacher pushing the kid to participate. I watched the kid start to wheeze and I went and found the principal. He had me talk to the PE teachers. One of them was just plain disgusted and said that it was a psychological “thing.” I got a bit rough with her and said “It may be psychological but it won’t matter when he bronchospasms and dies in front of you.That will be the end of your teaching career.”
Psychological disorders can have medical components and churches that have people playing “sin doctor” may one day find themselves on the wrong end of a deposition when someone is seriously hurt by stupid teaching.
@ dee: Yep! to “on the same page.”
ikwym about “pain loops,” too.
Anon1
Don’t get me going on women’s Bible studies. I had a friend who did BSF. One day, she brought up a book she had read during the “social” hour. She was called on the carpet because one is not allowed to discuss those things. Can you imagine me in that setting? Me and the BSF Nazis. There are times I know that it is a uselss proposition.
@ dee: Exactly. It’s pretty well impossible, imo, to be able to fully separate the mind/emotions from the physiological.
After all, look at the positive things oxytocin can do (and oxytocin is wonderful at lowering blood pressure, etc.). Its production can be stimulated by something as simple as petting an animal…
I guess I could make a big list, but I’m not sure that would be helpful…
@ dee:
Yes, I agree with you here. Stormy and I were discussing the salvation status of believers in churches with leaders who exhibit bad fruit.
@ dee:
Well agreement depends on which commenter you are reading 🙂
@ stormy:
No problem. Thanks for the conversation. If’s not necessary to agree.’
dee wrote:
I won’t cos then you would get ME going! :o)
@ Bridget:
It’s just my take on the passage- I can see both sides. In the end, we really aren’t told one way or the other. However, I contend that there is no account of him repenting at any point. He says he doesn’t want bad things to happen to him and asks for prayer, but nothing demonstrates that he has true contrition. In a sense, we aren’t given enough information. My supposition is that if he did repent, the account would have told of it.
@ Jeff S:
Well I guess you read that he didn’t have true repentance about trying to buy the gifts of God. I read that he did.
But how does not having “true” repentance effect his salvation? Does he lose his salvation because his intentions were wrong and he doesn’t seem to have true contrition? It was previously stated that he was a believer and baptized.
@ Bridget:
Not everyone who is baptized is saved, and “belief” can mean many different things. In a vaccume I would assume that when the Bible says believed and was baptized I take to mean someone is saved; however, Peter’s strong rebuke seems to indicate otherwise (to me).
Regarding whether he was repentant or not- the kinds of things he said are the kinds of things many people say when the pressure is on them and they want to look good in public. How many domestic abusers are sorry and get baptized multiple times, but never stop abusing their wives? The church tends to believe them because they seem sorry and say the right things, but their hearts aren’t changed.
IMO, Simon appears to fear the consequences of his actions and not desire a painful fate, but that falls short of real repentance.
@ Jeff S:
I don’t see that Simon was called an unbeliever by anyone in the text or that he was to be treated as an unbeliever. I would view him the same as the people sitting in pews across the world that I don’t know. I’m not the one to decide he is an unbeliever. I guess you have figured out by now that it doesn’t matter to me what great theological minds may have decided otherwise about Simon. The whole point of that text seems to be about the intent of Simon’s heart when desiring to move in the gifts of God, not the question of his salvation. I believe it is a misuse of the scripture to use it to disprove a man’s salvation. There is not enough information.
@ Bridget:
While not told to treat him as an unbeliever, in my view he was treated as an unbeliver by Peter. Your intepretation may differ. But if my pastor came to me and said what Peter said to Simon, I would interpret that as being him questioning my salvation.
I have not appealed to any great theological minds- I’ve merely stated my view of what I think the text is saying.
Overall I am sympathetic to your position in general and I was only noting your belief about Simon as an exception.
In the end, it doesn’t matter what we think about Simon because we are not the judges of him.
Sheldon, I have been following your blog for a couple months, but I particularly like this guestpost. It reminds me so much of my own background.
Thea Deley puts it all out there in her show Jesus Loves You (But Hates Me):
http://www.jesuslovesyoushow.com/hairstyles-of-the-sick-and-heinous/#comments. And, as here, more than a few people understand how she got to “there”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvE0hYRrmKo. I haven’t seen the show,
but, it is interesting to me that JoeAlan, who did see it, says it came back to love for him.