Outrage Growing Over Calvary Chapel’s Bob Grenier Suit Against Allegedly Abused Son

What white man has ever seen me drunk? Who has ever come to me hungry and left me unfed? Who has seen me beat my wives or abuse my children? What law have I broken?  Sitting Bull 
 

D. Sharon Pruitt from Hill Air Force Base, Utah, USA

In September, 2012, TWW reported on a story about a Calvary Chapel Pastor, Bob Grenier, who was suing his own son. This situation is the opposite of the SGM lawsuit in which those who were abused are suing those who allegedly covered up their abuse. In this situation, Alex Grenier, the adult stepson of Bob Grenier, came forward to report that he was physically abused by Bob Grenier after Bob married Alex's mother. Another brother alleged that he was sexually molested by Bob.

TWW wrote about this despicable turn of events in a post, Calvary Chapel-Mini-Moses Bob Grenier Sues His Own Son here.  Here is a link to a blog, Calvary Chapel Abuse on which Alex began to tell his story of abuse. We also thank Julie Anne Smith who is dedicated to seeing this situation publicized. Please read the entire post for the background. Here is an excerpt about the alleged abuse from the post. 

Brutal is making your children watch while one of your brothers is beaten, punched and kicked. Brutal is laughing at your child after you have beaten and humiliated him in front of his family. Brutal is hitting your child with a wooden log all over his body. Brutal is making your children go in the backyard and “pick the switch” that they will be whipped with all over their backs and buttocks. Brutal is making your child count out loud the number of times they will be hit. Brutal is making your child thank you and tell them how wonderful and responsible it is that you just beat them.”

“Brutal is locking your child in a small, dark closet. Brutal is punching your child in the face and then kicking him out his home because you are so afraid that it is going to be front page news that you are a child abuser disguised as a Pastor. Brutal is then kicking that child out and laughing at him because you have cut him off from his mothers and brothers. Brutal is not letting your wife talk to her son for 10 years. Brutal is threatening the rest of your children that they will be cut off if they talk to their estranged brother.”

“Brutal is telling your child to put their hands behind their backs and that it is ok because you aren’t going to hit them. Brutal is then hitting that child in the face so hard that they fall to the ground. 

“Brutal is making your child eat an entire pack of cigarettes and swallow them and laugh at them as they vomit and cry because they tried smoking in high school. Brutal is telling your children you don’t love them. Brutal is telling your children you wished they were never born and you never planned on having them. Brutal is beating one child so badly that they are scared and whimpering like a small animal, and then having another one of your children sit on your lap and profess how they are your favorite and how much you love them. Brutal is watching your older brother and sister-in-law in agony over the fact that they might lose their newborn baby boy.”

So, why am I writing this post today?  Bob Grenier is a Calvary Chapel pastor in the town of Visalia, California, a city of 150,000. He is suing his son and Tim Taylor, a friend, for publicly defaming him on a blog. Tomorrow, there will be an initial judicial impression on the merits of the Anti-Slapp that has been filed in regards to Bob Grenier's despicable lawsuit against his own son.  (Yep-I have an opinion on this one). Next Tuesday a judge will hear arguments on the Anti-Slapp if there is no definitive decision tomorrow. 

Many of you remember when Julie Anne Smith was sued by her pastor. Her lawyers filed an Anti-Slapp and she won, just as I predicted. Here is an explanation of the Slapp law from Wikipedia link.

A strategic lawsuit against public participation (SLAPP) is a lawsuit that is intended to censor, intimidate, and silence critics by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense until they abandon their criticism or opposition.[1]

The typical SLAPP plaintiff does not normally expect to win the lawsuit. The plaintiff's goals are accomplished if the defendant succumbs to fear, intimidation, mounting legal costs or simple exhaustion and abandons the criticism. A SLAPP may also intimidate others from participating in the debate. A SLAPP is often preceded by a legal threat. The difficulty is that plaintiffs do not present themselves to the Court admitting that their intent is to censor, intimidate or silence their critics. Hence, the difficulty in drafting SLAPP legislation, and in applying it, is to craft an approach which affords an early termination to invalid abusive suits, without denying a legitimate day in court to valid good faith claims.

Here is a concern about this situation. Bob is part of the Visalia community. He serves as the chaplain for the local police department.  Many influential members of the community attend Calvary Chapel which raises the specter of favoritism towards Bob Grenier. However, I was also concerned about the close community surrounding the Penn State/ Joe Paterno/Sandusky scandal. The Penn State community did not let the abused young men down.

Due to increased awareness and understanding of the extreme psychological stress on young children due to abuse, police and other members of the legal establishment now understand that it is difficult for a child to report such horrific crimes. As people age they begin to understand that they were not to blame for the abuse and are more willing to come forward. Although the events are reported years later, the memory of that abuse is still fresh. This was clearly demonstrated by the litigants against the Catholic church.

The State of California has somewhat stringent statutes of limitations on reporting such crimes. By the time that Alex was willing to discuss this situation with law enforcement, it was beyond the limitation date. He wanted to get the word out that there was an abuser in his family.

Bob Grenier is still pastoring a church and has access to children in that venue. Alex bravely decided to talk about his pain in order to alert the people to a potential abuser in their midst. For those of you who subscribe to the strange doctrine of the pastor being like Moses, I have one thing to say. Moses screwed up and God punished him. He was not allowed to enter the Promised Land. So, your Mini-Moses is not exempt from sin either.

Documentation has been submitted to the court by those who have been witness to some physical abuse on the part of Bob. I have copies of them in my possession. Alex's brother, Paul, has submitted and detailed his own sexual abuse by Bob. We will attach Paul's deposition at the end of this post. Warning: it will make many people sick.

I believe that child physical and sexual abuse are the types of crimes that most decent people find amongst the most contemptible. I believe, as was seen in the Penn State scandal, that members of a tight knit community are willing to break the common ties of friendship and business connections to see that an alleged abuser is brought to justice.

I feel strongly that the sentiment throughout the United States is one of appropriate horror at the recurring, revealed abuses of children. A change in the public attitude has occurred in the past decade. The Catholic church lawsuits proved that even people, who love their church and their clergy, are willing to speak out on behalf of the innocent children who were so badly harmed. I have to believe that the police and the judiciary system of Visalia, California, will join those throughout this country, and even throughout the globe, who have appropriately condemned such assaults on our children.

I staunchly believe in the merits of the accusations against Bob Grenier that I gave Tim Taylor my private cell phone number and asked him to call me with any updates. As I talked with Tim, I recalled my initial conversation with Julie Anne Smith over a year ago. I remember how upset and concerned she was about the lawsuit. I told her that she would win the Anti-Slapp and to keep good track of all of her expenses. But, she still needed to endure the stress and pain of the lawsuit.

In my conversation with Tim, I sensed the same sort of pain and anxiety. I told him that the people who inhabit our blog will pray for comfort and peace as well as for justice to be served. I also believe that Alex and he will prevail in their Anti-Slapp request.

I have one thing to say to Bob Grenier.You have lost all moral and spiritual authority by this prolonged litigation against your son. Your son, Bob, your son!  Have you no shame? Repent now because one day you, along with your wife, will stand before a Judge who knows the truth. May God have mercy on the both of you.

Here is an excerpt from Paul Grenier's deposition. I assure you that it only gets worse. If you can stomach reading more, click on the following link and then double click on the link on the page to which it brings you. P. Grenier Declaration iso SMTS text  

Bob did, in fact, molest me. These are extremely humiliating and painful events to be forced to share publicly, but I am left with no other choice at this point since Bob has filed this lawsuit against Alex and while I would prefer not to be involved, I will in no way let Alex's name be tarnished for telling the truth.

 Bob began sexually molesting me at the age of five years old. These episodes began in the small shower in the bathroom that adjoined his and Gayle's master bedroom.  These abuses started with me being forced to shower with him naked against my will.

First, I was extremely uncomfortable and always had been by Bob walking around nude in front of me with his genitals exposed. And I knew inside of me at five years old that there was something wrong with having to take a shower with Bob. I knew that this type of behavior did not occur in the homes of my friends even at a young age.

The showers started with Bob washing me with soap and touching my genitals and my anus. I recall at least six occasions where Bob would insert his index finger inside my anus in what he would describe "to make sure I was clean." Bob would also have me wash his genitals wherein he would be in a sexually aroused state during these episodes and at times he would not.

On two occasions I was forced to perform oral sex on Bob. Typical to the combination of physical and sexual abuse I endured at Bob's hands, these showers would involve scalding hot water and I remember being  in pain because of the heat of the water and also scared because of what he was doing to me.

Please join with me in praying for justice.

Comments

Outrage Growing Over Calvary Chapel’s Bob Grenier Suit Against Allegedly Abused Son — 283 Comments

  1. It stated:
    “How many days so far?
    For how many more days will The Gospel Coalition and friends continue ignoring the cries of the victims?
    So far: Day: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 (amended lawsuit adds names) 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 9192 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100! 101…
    and counting.”

  2. Bob what have you done?!!! You grieve me more than I can express on this blog. I want to throw up and cry at the same time! Why did you do this to Paul? I am so angry right now. Bob your sin has found you out. You have taken something from Paul that he can only recover with God’s help. I am proud to be one who will stand with Paul, Alex, Tim and the others to see justice.

  3. God be with Tim and Paul as they expose this evil. When will the church cease being a cover for power hungry mongrels? How long will religious freedom include the right to abuse children? Does this not sicken enough true Christians to stand up and say “enough”? Not another cent of my income will ever go to support another minister. I will instead support a charity for abused children!

  4. Tim and Alex can count on my prayers as well- a confirmed Anti-Slapp would be a good start – and my heart goes out to Paul and Alex.

    I wonder how Moses’ Israel is going to respond?

  5. Anon

    Are your referring to the single’s comment? I saw that and made a copy of it for our series. Thank you for alerting us.

  6. Thank you Dee for writing this. Thank you everyone for your prayers. May God be with Paul as he goes through this public exposure of the secrets he has hidden for so long. It’s heartbreaking to read, I can only imagine what it must be like to live with.

  7. This is the best told version of this story to date. Please tell everyone you know and spread it all over facebook.

  8. Why isn’t the law allowed to take the fact finding and turn such lawsuits around on the heads of such abusers.

    This coward would be put in his place.

    Praying, it’s all that can be done.

  9. I just can’t wrap my mind around the idea that someone could treat another human being this way, let alone his own children. I am so angry and grieved. And it makes me sick to think that so-called “Christians” turn a blind eye to this. My God. I am speechless.

  10. Bob if you are reading these comments, which I am sure you are, you might want to consider some body guards. There are some real men out there that would like to paddle your genitals.

  11. Alex and Tim,

    I am keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. May Almighty God give you peace and courage in the days ahead.

  12. Eagle said:

    “For example Clovis Evangelical Free in Clovis, CA is staunchly reformed. The pastor (from SBTS if I remember correctly…) pushes SGM material on his blog.”

    Eagle,

    Actually, that pastor received his M.Div. and Doctorate from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in the years 2003 and 2008 respectively.  If he was as regular in attending services in Binkley Chapel as I was during 2008, he would have seen me sitting at the very back (most of the time).  Later that year, my eyes began to open to the crazy things that were going on in conservative Christianity, and the rest is history… 

  13. O my heart. I too am sickened, angry & grieved… My prayers are with Paul. I believe every word of Paul’s story & pray for justice in the courts. Please Lord.

  14. Eagle, Know that this stuff is happening everywhere. Be glad that these brave gentlemen have brought to light abuse that until now was hidden in the dark. Maybe now real justice and healing can take place. My heart goes out to these brave men and also to all those out there whose story will never be told.

  15. My heart breaks with grief for these brothers. And dealing with the outrage I feel towards my former tribe is a daily challenge. Paul is so much more charitable re: Chuck Smith and Dave Rolph in his disposition than I could be. To me their “sympathy” and dismay re: Bob filing the lawsuit pales beside their own failures to address egregious sin in their camp. That CC pastors have been “defrocked” over doctrinal and much lesser issues, yet this horrible man has been allowed to remain in a Dove pulpit is beyond hypocrisy. They have become enablers and co-conspirators on behalf of a truly evil man.
    Hoping for a just outcome in court, that Paul and Alex may move forward in healing.

  16. Eagle

    Can you get any emails to the police department? I wonder if they are aware of the lawsuit.

  17. My heart is broken and the tears flowing that these boys, now men, and this wife have had to suffer at the hands of a terrible monster. Praying, praying, praying for these brave men who have suffered unspeakable abuse. Lord, have mercy on our souls. Lord, let no one ever elevate himself to hyper-authoritarian power in his pulpit or his home. Lord, help us.

  18. I, too, am so sad and grieved and angry to hear that this happened to you. I am thinking about you and praying for you that justice will be done on earth as it is in heaven, and I am grieving with you. I too can’t sleep. I keep tossing and turning. I was a part of an SGM church for 13 years. It is actually different from many of the SGM churches because it has a huge “outreach” on a university campus. I was a very lonely and heartbroken freshmen. My RA (resident assistant) was a member of the SGM church. She befriended me and invited me to the campus outreach and I was immediately sucked in. Thirteen years later it was like I finally awoke from a coma…a bad dream. I can never get those years back.

  19. I couldn’t finish the article – made me too sick. Dee/Deb – can a P.O. box be listed somewhere so that readers could contribute encouragement or finances to help this man?

  20. Michelle

    Let me reassure you that God will use those 13 years in your life. Your heartbreak over the Calvary Chapel abuse is one way that God is using your experience. He used my encounter with a poor church environment to launch this blog. Believe me, most of us have been sucked in to a church situation in a our lives. We want so much to follow Jesus and assume that those who lead us are straight shooters. These warped men who use ministry to stick it to the sheep are the ones upon whom shame should fall. One day, judgment will. 

  21. I wanted to mention that at Alex’s site: Calvary Chapel Abuse, there is a legal defense fund on the upper left-hand corner of the screen.

  22. Alex and Paul,

    It is horrific to think about the treatment you received at the hands of a man who should have loved and cared for you. I’m so sorry for what you endured through this life. Thank you for your bravery in speaking out and your desire to want to stop abuse. I’m praying for justice.

  23. Brutal is beating one child so badly that they are scared and whimpering like a small animal, and then having another one of your children sit on your lap and profess how they are your favorite and how much you love them.

    Don’t tell me, let me guess. The “another one of your children sitting on your lap professing how they are your favorite and how much Daddy loves them” is Bob Grenier, Junior, Heir Apparent to the Throne of Calvary Chapel Visalia by Divine (and Daddy’s) Right?

  24. Eagle wrote:

    For example Clovis Evangelical Free in Clovis, CA is staunchly reformed. The pastor (from SBTS if I remember correctly…) pushes SGM material on his blog. If he is influenced by CJ Mahaney what role or adverse influence can he have if he is a Chaplin in the Clovis PD working with someone in a domestic battery situation?

    I don’t know if he is…I’m just saying that I can see something similar in the Visalia PD.

    Well, control of the police is a vital step in a takeover. Restoring America to a Truly Christian Nation and all that…

    “Today the Central Valley’s Bible Belt, TOMORROW THE WORLD!!!!!”

  25. Eagle wrote:

    Let me guess….Calvary Chapel Visalia is going to become a part of Sovereign Grace. Its sounds like they have similar doctrine! AND it must be “Biblical” in some twisted way.

    “TODAY CALVARY CHAPEL VISALIA, TOMORROW THE WORLD!!!!!!
    GOD HATH PREDESTINED IT!!!!!”

  26. Eagle,
    I’m a little confused. I thought Calvary Chapel was staunchly unreformed. I have read that some pastors in the movement want to allow their leaders to have a choice, but that that would never happen until the big Moses is gone.
    Is there more that I don’t know?

  27. Julie Anne

    I was contacted by the involved folks and told about the SLAPP deal.From the previous post I had asked them to keep me up to date. I told them I would be happy to update the situation and they were pleased that I would do so. I have another idea to help but I would like to discuss it with you offline.

  28. I both live and work less than ten miles from where Calvary Chapel began. In the Late Seventies/Early Eighties, Calvary Chapel’s various franchises dominated Christianese AM airwaves. (Kind of like Mormons in Utah.) It’s no exaggeration to say that Calvary Chapel defined “True Christianity” to a LOT of Southern California. As in There Is No Salvation Outside of Calvary Chapel.

    And I’ve always gotten a bad vibe from them. Nothing I could point at and say “AHA!”, but a general indefinable feel of something wrong. Like (along with Jack Chick tracts), they somehow acquire & embody the dark side of American Evangelicalism. And you can never say so to a Calvary Chapelite. All that does is bring out the Sword Drills and Witnessing Tools and you find yourself trying to articulate your concern directly into a full-auto barrage of Twitter-length Chapter-and-Verse Bible Bullets. Again, to a Calvary Chapelite, there IS No Salvation Outside of Calvary Chapel.

  29. This is an aside, for by now any who read my comments know I do not condone child abuse.

    But I would never think to call my mom brutal. In the 50’s where we lived it was common practice to send the child to pick their switch to receive the usual 3 swats on the leg for serious infractions.

    At least in my home, we suffered more from the walk out to the rare old elm tree than from the mild swats. And they were mild, not brutal.

    If the young man in question was beaten brutally with them, it was indeed brutal. But the idea that going to get a switch is brutal? Not so much.

  30. I am so very sorry that Alex and Paul had to endure the years of torture and torment at the hands of a man who has no right to be referred to as “father.” My prayers are with them both.

    If we do not stand up and fight for those who cannot fight for themselves, we are not worthy of calling ourselves followers of Christ. Children deserve to live their young lives feeling safe and loved. All people deserve to live free of emotional, physical and sexual violence. Thank you Alex and Paul for standing up and fighting. You are most likely saving more children from the pain you had to endure. May the Lord bless you and keep you.

  31. linda

    If you know that the beating that you will be getting will be brutal, that walk is part of the abuse. It reminds me of the prisoners in concentration camps who were forced to dig their own graves. 

  32. Linda, your comment seriously enrages me. Why would you pick that one thing out? Are you trying to cast doubt on whether or not this story is true? That’s like picking one thing out of a rape victim’s story and saying it wasn’t that bad. You need to seriously think about the context that things are said.

    BTW, just because they made children pick their own switch in the 50’s doesn’t make it right. I had to do it and I think it is terrible to do that to a child. People can be so cruel to children. The idea of discipline isn’t meant to instill this kind of terror.

    Calvary Chapel is a dangerous place to worship. The pastors have absolutely no accountability. I’ve heard pastors say that they are accountable to their wives!! That’s messed up. The pastors believe they speak for God and everyone else needs to fall in line with their vision. It’s wrong.

    I am so upset right now over this whole thing. I’m upset that the leadership in Calvary Chapel Visalia have not done one thing in this situation. They think they are being persecuted for the gospel, because of course, like Eagle implied, they are the only ones who preach the gospel.

    This situation is a travesty and should never have gotten to this point. This is what happens when you use the ‘Moses Model’ type of governance in a church. People, wise up. Do something.

  33. @ Tim Taylor:

    Getting the word out and disbursing it. May the walls fall down and may all stand for the brutality brought this family as a result of a man who hid behind the Moses Model and those who failed to bring to an account that which they knew to be true. May God purge this church of all its corruption including the victimization of children, women, and the young who placed their trust believing these were godly men and would be protected from such deviant, sadistic, and treacherous men.

  34. @ linda:

    Linda, if that was the worst “punishment” that you ever endured as a child, it was still abusive. I do not see how that does not violate the nurturing of the Lord by the provoking of your child to wrath.

  35. @ linda:

    In terms of brutality and getting a switch, this in and of itself is only part of what the child know to be the pattern or what is to come and what has already taken place over and over and over again. Getting the switch is very abusive as it demands that the child participates in his/her victimiztion. What more, it causes the child to believe that they deserve such sadistic behavior from a person that is supposed to be loving and protective of them. It is a form of breaking down the psyche of a child in order to use them as a means to vent their anger that is projected upon the child. It is a means to control a child in such a way that keeps this child from daring to speak the truth and to know this adult has absolute power over them. It has nothing to do with discipline. It has everything to do with the adult’s inability to cope with their own feelings and thoughts over their own unfesolved issues that they have distorted into believing it is the child’s responsibility to keep the adult from being angry and frustrated instead.

  36. @ Summer:
    “They think they are being persecuted for the gospel, because of course, like Eagle implied, they are the only ones who preach the gospel.”

    That “persecution complex” is a beauty, isn’t it? My former church used the same whine. Any time there was an outcry against them, they claimed they were being persecuted just like the Jews were in Nazi Germany. Predictably, people outside the church laughed at the suggestion that they had endured anything NEAR what the Jews had. I came to the conclusion long ago that, if they are ever seriously persecuted, they will bring it upon themselves by their lies, manipulation, abuse, hypocrisy, and self-serving.
    You have every right to feel anger for what has happened.

  37. @ Summer:

    I have heard directly that Calvary Chapel Pastors and husbands are not even accountable to their wives. That the sole duty of the wife was to show the world how submissiive they are and that husbands are to be viewed as if they are a Commanding General. Perhaps, this is why they tolerate adultery in the pulpit and among their male congregants, even though they preach against it.

  38. I am hoping that everyone who comments on this post will actually read Paul’s declaration entirely, every word, and not throw in any question marks whatsoever. It is a grueling thing to detail abuse. The details must be spoken, it is the only way to grab the hearts of people who can help. But detailing is so painful. And any sort of doubt expressed by anyone is salt, gravel and acid on the open wound of the abused soul. Just even the tiny word ‘if’ can make a person clam up forever.
    Paul, you are a very brave man. I am so so sorry that you were abused, but thank you for going public with the details. And just know, in case you have been reading here about the latest subject of ‘gossip’ by Ray Ortland saying talking about others lives could cause heart failure, that if my heart fails after reading your traumatic testimony on this blog, it would be on your abuser’s head, never yours for speaking out and letting us share your pain.

  39. @ linda:

    Getting the switch knowing and knowing what will follow is not as isolated as it may seem. Particularly in the manner that was described by Paul. Knowing it wasn’t going to be a quick 1,2,3. but a continuiing of what had taken place for years while also witnessing the beatings of his siblings and his mother. Being stripped naked, having to count off the numbers of lashes, hearing the foul and abusive name calling and dispicable hateful remarks that tore into the body and the spirit of each of them, not having anyone they could go to or not being able to trust that someone would believe them. Getting the switch did not happened in a vcuum. That was just part of the bruality that was inflicted on them by this monster who called himself a man and exploited others ito believing he was a Christian aw well.

  40. Linda Pappas wrote:

    @ linda:
    Getting the switch and knowing what will follow is not as isolated as it may seem. Particularly in the manner that was described by Paul. Knowing it wasn’t going to be a quick 1,2,3. but a continuiing of what had taken place for years while also witnessing the beatings of his siblings and his mother. Being stripped naked, having to count off the numbers of lashes, hearing the foul and abusive name calling and dispicable hateful remarks that tore into the body and the spirit of each of them, not having anyone they could go to or not being able to trust that someone would believe them. Getting the switch did not happened in a vacuum. That was just part of the brutality that was inflicted on them by this monster who called himself a man and exploited others ito believing he was a Christian aw well.

  41. Tweeters, take note:

    Pastor Bob Grenier = @bobgrenier
    Calvary Chapel Page = @Calvarypage

    Keep chirping, people. Be sure to follow Dee = @Wartwatch and JulieAnne = @DefendtheSheep and RT (retweet) if you would like to come along side us and EXPOSE these abuses.

  42. To our readers

    Dee has contacted the Visalia Police Department asking for a statement about Bob Grenier’s position as a police chaplain in light of the serious accusations coming out of his own family. Apparently police chaplains are their to support the police as they deal with difficult situations. With the current streesors in Bob’s family, it woudl seem to me that he might need a break from this position. But, who knows, I may be wrong.

    I spoke with the Community Relations manager for Visalia who sent me to the Office of the Chief of Police. I spoke with an administrative assistant and asked for a statement. I was told that they would share my request with the department. 

    This is another way that one may contact the police department. Here is a link to their email system.

  43. Patti saud~

    “Paul, you are a very brave man. I am so so sorry that you were abused, but thank you for going public with the details. And just know, in case you have been reading here about the latest subject of ‘gossip’ by Ray Ortland saying talking about others lives could cause heart failure, that if my heart fails after reading your traumatic testimony on this blog, it would be on your abuser’s head, never yours for speaking out and letting us share your pain.”

    I agree so much with that!

    I am so sorry for all this. Praying. Sick at heart. Discouraged, but not in despair… knowing God sees it all and believing Him to be a just Judge.

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  44. Patti said~

    “Paul, you are a very brave man. I am so so sorry that you were abused, but thank you for going public with the details. And just know, in case you have been reading here about the latest subject of ‘gossip’ by Ray Ortland saying talking about others lives could cause heart failure, that if my heart fails after reading your traumatic testimony on this blog, it would be on your abuser’s head, never yours for speaking out and letting us share your pain.”

    I agree so much with that!

    I am so sorry for all this. Praying. Sick at heart. Discouraged, but not in despair… knowing God sees it all and believing Him to be a just Judge.

  45. Linda Pappas wrote:

    In terms of brutality and getting a switch, this in and of itself is only part of what the child know to be the pattern or what is to come and what has already taken place over and over and over again. Getting the switch is very abusive as it demands that the child participates in his/her victimiztion.

    Don’t forget making the child thank the parent after the whipping. “Thank you, Daddy, I Deserved It.” In an abuse situation like at CCV, this makes the abused thank and praise the abuser for the abuse. Like show trials in the old USSR.

  46. dee wrote:

    Dee has contacted the Visalia Police Department asking for a statement about Bob Grenier’s position as a police chaplain in light of the serious accusations coming out of his own family. Apparently police chaplains are their to support the police as they deal with difficult situations.

    Don’t forget the fact that police work (like any other dangerous profession) forms a tribal identity that’s almost like a religious brotherhood. And can divide the world into Us or Them, Cop or not-Cop. Bob Grenier’s position as police chaplain can put him into the “Cop” side of the divide. And a tribal identity under siege closes ranks against the Other to protect Their Own — sometimes at all costs.

  47. What I meant in the previous is IF that tribal identity dynamic kicks in, Greiner might have the Visalia PD in his pocket.

    Griener = Cop.
    Deb, Dee, you, me, etc = not-Cop.
    Alex & Paul = TRAITORS?

  48. Karma’s a funny thing. What goes around comes around. At day’s end, and when all is said and done, this whole imbroglio will not bode well for Calvary Chapel.

  49. linda wrote:

    This is an aside, for by now any who read my comments know I do not condone child abuse.
    But I would never think to call my mom brutal. In the 50′s where we lived it was common practice to send the child to pick their switch to receive the usual 3 swats on the leg for serious infractions.
    At least in my home, we suffered more from the walk out to the rare old elm tree than from the mild swats. And they were mild, not brutal.
    If the young man in question was beaten brutally with them, it was indeed brutal. But the idea that going to get a switch is brutal? Not so much.

    I don’t agree. You can’t combine your experiences with what was said here.

    I remember a time my father used a ruler on my hands, and no doubt some have memories of that as well. My father made is so I had issues with major swelling, and bruising on my hands afterwards.

    Heck I remember the belt as well.

    The difference? My father apologized for it when I was adult, and told me that what he did to us no doubt would have placed him in major hot water with authorities today. He also mentioned – as is should be. He realized it was child abuse, and repented. It takes a big man to do that.

    In this case YES getting the switch would be ‘brutal’, because you are walking to get the tool you will be beaten with. You can’t compare your experience to this. It would be the same with any child that knew that bruises, welts, marks, blood, etc will follow. Why wouldn’t it be brutal? Its his father’s way of terrorizing him prior to the beating. No doubt he was also wondering if he would die due to the pattern of abuse within his home.

    For the most part sane people have stopped this type of treatment of children, and for good reason. If there wasn’t a good reason – most would still be doing it.

    For myself? I can count the times I have laid a hand – or tool – on my children. It was because of those experiences in childhood I that decided not to repeat them. I found creative ways of discipline, and no doubt at the times they felt ‘tortured’. I’m glad they didn’t have a clue what the meaning in the true sense even was. I wouldn’t wish that on my worse enemy.

    Today my teens giggle at the ways I ‘tortured’ them, and ask me how the heck I ever came up with the ideas I did. I will clue them once I have grandchildren! lol they aren’t out of the house just yet!

  50. Linda Pappas wrote:

    @ Summer:
    I have heard directly that Calvary Chapel Pastors and husbands are not even accountable to their wives. That the sole duty of the wife was to show the world how submissiive they are and that husbands are to be viewed as if they are a Commanding General. Perhaps, this is why they tolerate adultery in the pulpit and among their male congregants, even though they preach against it.

    Linda,

    Can you elaborate on this, by chance? Specifically on the duty of the wives to show how submissive they are, and husbands as Commanding Generals? Is this what is taught in Calvary Chapels? Because it would explain some things I’ve encountered if it was. I’ve had experiences with some CC people such that it wouldn’t surprise me if this is literal. Did your direct source actually use the wording “Commanding Generals”?

  51. Dee, Deb, TWW family, Julie Anne, all: Thank you so much for covering this important story. I love my brother Paul very much and I want justice for him (and all the others who have been hurt and wronged, but especially for Paul).

    Our hearing was continued today until Feb. 26 and a tentative ruling will be posted on Feb. 25 between 1pm-3pm PST.

    Please keep speaking out. A bright light needs to continue to shine on abuses in the church, SGM, CC, IFB, etc etc.

    Thank you again.

  52. The “Brutal is…” testimony was presented by Paul and published on my blog at CCAbuse. Paul is very gifted at communicating and he captured the very emotional pain of the abuse we endured.

  53. There is a strong thread of similarity in the dynamics of the abuse, be it spiritual, sexual and/or physical in these church circles.

    There are common themes. common warning signs, common cult-like practices in protecting the status quo. It is good to see so many are now tuned into the stuff and deconstructing it and educating the public about it. It is helping. The more awareness that is created, the more the warning signs are looked for and called out, the more pressure is put on these institutions of trust…the larger dent will be made in the Problem of abuse.

  54. Alex & Paul – I’ve been following your blog sometimes and wish to encourage you both during this time. If I remember rightly, in addition to what happened, I think there’s a whole lot of another pain from the role your mum played (or didn’t play) – and where she stands today. A previous commenter alluded to the effect on women in this system, and I’m sorry she didn’t have the moxie to defend you. I wish for both of you that you find in your lives the type of parental/grandparental figures that you were denied – good people that you can trust and relate to. Much love to you both.

  55. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Cannot comment much on the subject matter that these posts are about..Not read enough to do so intelligently .
    However I can comment with some knowledge about Calvary Chapel,having once considered being a Pastor with them. They are certainly NOT reformed,anything but…I had this direct from the Chuck Smith himself. in fact many of their publications are against so called Calvinistic teaching. Added to this there is no structure in these churches,the Pastor is the supreme authority….It’s a shame really because many of their Pastors I got to know well after attending their Pastors retreats.. Nothing that I heard or read would lead me to believe that the incident that is posted here would be tolerated by such men. I would hate to ‘throw out the baby with the bath water’ and condemn the whole of Calvary Chapel for such a hideous crime of abuse…

  56. Linda Pappas wrote:

    I have heard directly that Calvary Chapel Pastors and husbands are not even accountable to their wives. That the sole duty of the wife was to show the world how submissiive they are and that husbands are to be viewed as if they are a Commanding General.

    Reread that and flashed on what I knew of The Handmaid’s Tale.

    “Commanding General” or “Commander of Holy Gilead”?

  57. Alex wrote:

    The “Brutal is…” testimony was presented by Paul and published on my blog at CCAbuse. Paul is very gifted at communicating and he captured the very emotional pain of the abuse we endured.

    Has Paul thought of taking up writing (essayist or fiction)? “Brutal is…” has a pretty good “litany” structure, using repetition and parallelism to (TRIGGER WARNING: every description that comes to mind sounds like physical violence) keep hitting the reader over and over with the impact of what took place, building into a strong unforgettable image.

  58. @ Rusty:
    This is the part of your comment that raises a red flag for me: “Added to this there is no structure in these churches,the Pastor is the supreme authority….” Having just left a church after two decades with a “pastor” as “the supreme authority,” my opinion is that this gives congregants no one to bring grievances to should the pastor be corrupt. Assuming that none of us are perfect, who corrects the pastor when he is living in undisclosed sin? And when serious issues are brought to light, as in the case of Alex, Paul, and Tim, what action is taken to bring a resolution?

  59. Rusty wrote:

    However I can comment with some knowledge about Calvary Chapel,having once considered being a Pastor with them. They are certainly NOT reformed,anything but…I had this direct from the Chuck Smith himself. in fact many of their publications are against so called Calvinistic teaching. Added to this there is no structure in these churches,the Pastor is the supreme authority….

    “Pastor as supreme authority” means there are no reality checks if you get a control-freak or dictatorial pastor, which seems to have happened in this case and probably others. (Wartburg Watch has a lot of dictatorial Head Apostle Reverend Founding Pastor cases in their archives, and they’re not the only one cataloging spiritual abuse.)

    And it’s still debatable how much unofficial influence “Pastor Chuck” has over the others — a lot of Founding Pastors end up as miniature Popes of their own new denomination in all but name, and de facto lines of power and influence don’t necessarily follow the official tables of organization.

    They may not be Calvinist, but a lot of the control-freak behavior and abuse coverup holds on both sides of the divide.

  60. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    C’mon lets be sensible here…. We are in danger of branding a movement and countless Godly men as mindless authoritarians in their marriages,
    I am not complementarian as Calvary Chapel is but cannot condemn those who are and insinuate that they require their wives to be submissive and anonymous .
    Egalitarianism does not guarantee Godly marriages anymore than complementarianism breeds destructive marriages..

  61. linda wrote:

    This is an aside, for by now any who read my comments know I do not condone child abuse.
    But I would never think to call my mom brutal. In the 50′s where we lived it was common practice to send the child to pick their switch to receive the usual 3 swats on the leg for serious infractions.
    At least in my home, we suffered more from the walk out to the rare old elm tree than from the mild swats. And they were mild, not brutal.
    If the young man in question was beaten brutally with them, it was indeed brutal. But the idea that going to get a switch is brutal? Not so much.

    Hmm…this really stands out to me. It is a beautifully executed classic example of minimizing. I can’t speak to whether Linda intended to minimize or is just speaking from a place of being well trained religiously/societally – trained to read an account of horrible abuse and zero in on the one thing that might, possibly, if you twist it in the right half-light be called NOT abuse. But to minimize someone’s story is, in itself, abusive…..what can I say. The essence I hear is this: “I don’t condone child abuse (because that would be wrong), but I don’t consider that abuse, so its not, so stop saying it is.”

    Patti wrote:

    I am hoping that everyone who comments on this post will actually read Paul’s declaration entirely, every word, and not throw in any question marks whatsoever. It is a grueling thing to detail abuse. The details must be spoken, it is the only way to grab the hearts of people who can help. But detailing is so painful. And any sort of doubt expressed by anyone is salt, gravel and acid on the open wound of the abused soul. Just even the tiny word ‘if’ can make a person clam up forever.

    Yes. This. Paul and Alex, you have my admiration and my prayers. I know how difficult it is to document and share the story of abuse. For me, even now, sometimes, it feels like someone is flaying the skin off with razors blades, but on an emotional level. It also has a physical cost. And although it breeds freedom and strength to tell it, it hurts every time. I wish I could give you both a hug, look you in the eye and tell you, “You matter. Your story matters. I hear you and believe you.”

    Alex wrote:

    The “Brutal is…” testimony was presented by Paul and published on my blog at CCAbuse. Paul is very gifted at communicating and he captured the very emotional pain of the abuse we endured.

    Yes, Paul communicates well. I am so glad he has you to stand with him. Never underestimate how huge that is.

  62. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    you may be right but then again many of the Independent Baptists in the South have much the same authority.My contention is that it’s not the Theology that’s breeding abuse on either side of the Calvin/Arminian debate .Its the sinfulness of man that is at work here and the individual person is the one that is accountable not the moment.History shows us that such behavior spans denominational divides and springs up in many unexpected places.
    Well I have commented more than I am accustomed to.. I better stop before I confuse myself.

  63. @ Rusty:
    Perhaps you should take some time to read the posts and comments on this blog. Read the comments on Alex’s blog. Read the posts and comments on SGM Survivors blog. Perhaps when you see the magnitude of damage some of these Godly men have perpetrated and condoned, you’ll understand why we feel as strongly as we do about it’s potential for abuse. I’m glad you have met some truly Godly men in these movements. Others were not so fortunate.

  64. @ Rusty:
    You’re right. There is an entire blog devoted to stopping Baptist predators, too. But, just as abuse went unreported and unrepented in the Catholic church for decades, it goes on in many denominations today. This blog is devoted to exposing those abuses in the denominations that have yet to acknowledge it and deal with it. Unfortunately, they are legion.

  65. @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    I have and do read this blog continuously.. I like others am appalled to read of such abuse. However I come from it at a different angle.
    Blogs like this can and do exposé things..I congratulate Dee and Deb for the great work they do.. However,the fact remains that until proven guilty,a person is ‘presumed innocent’ Before you condemn me for writing such heresy,I said at the outset that I cannot comment intelligently on this actual matter. I read as you read all that is written and it sickens me.. I do have first hand knowledge of a similar case with some close relative and I do know the horror both as a Pastor and as a man of such hideous acts. In our case a court of law was the deciding factor.
    So excuse me if I do seem hesitant. No amount of reading can tell me if what I read is fact.

  66. @ Rusty:
    On the issue of “innocent until proven guilty,” what do you suppose is the standard response in most religious, education, and law enforcement professions when such accusations are made? I googled this. A leave of absence is standard protocol while an investigation is made. Rarely will there be an attitude of “business as usual.” Many of us are deeply troubled that other Christian “leaders” seem not to care about these serious allegations. Presumed innocence does not mean ignoring the situation.

  67. @ Rusty:

    Read the full lawsuit when it comes out. We can “read” stuff and make a reasonable decision as to guilt or innocence, we are asked to do it all the time in life, especially in a jury room.

    The lawsuit spells it all out on the record with much testimony, documents, witnesses and defenses/counters, etc.

    I think most reasonable folks will come to a similar conclusion, though not all, as there is always likely to be some who will never be convinced, even if caught on video doing it.

    Unfortunately, due to statute of limitations on the physical child abuse, we could not get our day in court (and due to the Board not reporting the confession of punching my brother in the face back when it happened, which would have caused law enforcement to investigate and it all would have come out back then).

    The financial issues are probably still being investigated and we may see some sort of outcome from the authorities (yet) on those issues.

    Paul’s child abuse allegations that include sexual abuse are not necessarily under statute of limitations in California as there appears to be a loophole that essentially nulls the statute of limitations. I am hopeful he as the strength and courage to file criminal charges, but I fear he won’t get a fair shake in Tulare County as BG is uber-connected with law enforcement and even the most recent DA there.

    As to the physical abuse, there were times we were “spanked” in what is probably considered a typical corporal punishment scenario, however much of the time the “spankings” were in the form of a grown man hitting us as hard as he could in a rage with a switch or a custom made thick wooden plank-like paddle leaving bruises on our lower backs, backs of legs and buttocks and sometimes resulting in open wounds that would bleed and ooze and stick to my underwear. The “discipline” also often included being hit in the face, grabbed violently, shoved, kicked, etc. I witnessed my other brother being imprisoned in a small coat closet and witnessed him being beaten one time from head to toe with a pruning (small branch) from the mulberry tree in our backyard. There was a lot more than what I’ve briefly described. The abuse was ongoing, too many times to count and way over the line. Sometimes we received more normal ‘spankings’ that did hurt but still left welts and marks but not the bad bruising and open wounds like the real bad ones. All of the “spankings’ included stripping naked with bare buttocks and genitals exposed to our abuser.

  68. The lawsuit contains much of the information I reported and shared on my blog regarding our personal situation and regarding the CCV situation in general.

    The bible says we are to judge those inside the church in the context of bad stuff that folks who claim to be Christians do. Christian Leaders, according to the bible, are to be held to higher standards and supposedly will undergo a stricter judgment.

    1 Corinthians 5:12-13 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Am I not to judge those inside? Expel the wicked person from among you.

    This was Paul the Apostle dealing with a very bad case of sin in the church of Corinth and provides us with an example of looking at deeds done that Paul says even the heathens find reprehensible and don’t tolerate.

    I think that there comes a point where there is so much corroboration, examples of a confessed instance of punching a teen in the face, lots of witnesses from periods over the course of 30 years, long time insiders, family members etc, that it is reasonable to make a judgment as to guilt or innocence. The stuff is not trivial and is serious in nature and the Leader is not in a trivial position in society, he is in positions of trust as pastor and police chaplain etc.

    While no one is ever convicted by blog, there is common sense that needs to be applied and can be applied and warning about the issues and exposing them and petitioning the church and the government to do something about them is a righteous act (and a protected act) IMO and should be done in some cases.

  69. @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    Don’t know what you mean exactly…other Christian ‘leaders’ don’t seem to care… In the place of ministry that I served (UK) there was an unwritten boundary ,to the effect that you never interfered in another Pastors church unless invited. now I am speaking of many years ago and of a non denominational movement. In established denominations over here in the US,there is a procedure that is followed in such cases. I know of a present situation where a Pastor is under suspicion of abuse. In this case,he is reported to the governing authority of his denomination,who will investigate the accusation. If children under age are involved then it is encumbered upon them to involve the legal authorities. That is the law which I believe prevails in most States.
    There is a process to be followed in every case. Perhaps Christians don’t move as fast as we would like but then that’s because we are hesitant to judge . I don’t think we can call it indifference or ignoring situations. I was brought up to be slow to condemn .When it comes to abuse,child or adult,most if not all Pastors that I know would move Heaven & Earth to investgate such things.

  70. Personally, I would have preferred that our abuser would have taken responsibility for the stuff, but he didn’t. Then I would have preferred that the local church board and elders would have taken responsibility for the stuff and acted, but they didn’t. Then I would have preferred that Chuck Smith and CC would have taken responsibility and acted, but they didn’t. Finally I preferred that the Govt. would have taken responsibility and acted, but statute of limitations prevented that and the police report I filed was so watered down it left me feeling my abuser was being protected by his close friends at the police department and DA’s office.

  71. @ Julie Anne:
    Here’s the link to tomorrow’s CCV Men’s conference. A good list of folks who might be twittered perhaps. Wish I was more twitter savvy. Will give it a try but maybe others can get it out quicker while I’m working on it too. Was wondering though how Paul feels about it getting such widespread distribution. Is anyone close enough to pass out flyers to attendees? BG’s peers, both CC and law enforcement deserve to be revealed for their part of allowing BG to continue business as usual while these allegations are pending.

    http://events.recorderonline.com/visalia_ca/events/show/303972525-calvary-chapel-central-california-mens-conference

  72. @ Rusty:
    “When it comes to abuse,child or adult,most if not all Pastors that I know would move Heaven & Earth to investgate such things.”

    Then you move in very narrow social circles. Many pastors, as documented in the testimonies on many blogs and emails, don’t do so much as lift a finger. (See Dee and Deb’s testimony) Some have been known to discourage families of victims to report to the authorities. (SGM) And, yes, the “leaders” who continue to support Mahaney have voiced no concern for the victims in his “family of churches.”

  73. @ Alex:
    Alex,
    Thank you for sharing..please be assured my hesitancy was not meant to be seen as unbelieving or uncaring
    Your situation is very similiar to what I referred to in our family situation.
    The abuse was by a father to his children in sexual terms..
    2 children were involved and while 1 was outside the time limits and constrains,the other was not and the outcome was conviction and jail sentence.
    I pray along with you and others that justice may come to the accused and healing to those of you that we’re abused..
    Shalom and Grace.

  74. So, there comes a point where speaking out and exercising one’s first amendment rights is the only healthy outlet for some form of justice and accountability and some form of continuing to seek justice and petition the church and govt, etc with the dual purpose of exposing the stuff and warning others so they can make an informed decision to come under that church authority situation and whether or not to trust it and to donate money to it. Most people would want to know and most want to know if bad stuff has gone on. Telling the story is also part of a broader goal in educating the public about the dynamics of abusive situations and continuing the Movement that is growing in holding our Institutions of Trust accountable, be it the church, the Boy Scouts, Penn State, you name it. Abuse and corruption in Positions of Trust and Institutions of Trust should be called out and should be dealt with at all levels. I am strengthened when I see people care about these issues like I do. The Wartburg Watch and this Community are “bulldogs for justice” (something I’ve been called). Justice is right and righteous and calling for justice and seeking justice is a good thing and a necessary thing. Abusers and abusive churches like to spin a passion for justice in dealing with these issues as “unforgiving” or “bitterness” etc, when in reality it is often a desire for justice (which is Godly) in situations that are unresolved because the abuser and abusive church sweep the stuff under the rug and continue abusing and not taking responsibility for their actions.

  75. @ Alex:
    I believe you. My former church pulled the same stunts. I’m praying justice will prevail for you.

  76. @ Rusty:

    Rusty, no worries, no offense taken, I just wanted to respond. Believe me, you folks are very kind and I don’t expect zero push-back. I have very thick skin because I’ve been called every name in the book over this stuff, maligned, threatened, hacked, harassed, you name it. I don’t expect everyone to agree, I just expect to be able to have my say and state my case. What is encouraging is that many do agree and even those who don’t agree 100%, most of those tend to find some points of agreement. Anything we can do to move the ball and make a dent when it comes to protecting kids…I’m all for. The stuff is painful to hash out, it’s uncomfortable for many folks, but it’s necessary to have the discussion and I hope some will never grow weary from having it as, unfortunately, there will always be more abusers and more victims.

  77. Alex,

    Please be sure to check out this weekend’s EChurch, which will be posted tomorrow morning.  I had you in mind as I chose the songs, and I believe you will find Wade’s sermon to be a tremendous encouragement.  

    Earlier today I listened to your Dealing with Devils interview, and I’m keeping you in my prayers. 

  78. Alex wrote:

    Finally I preferred that the Govt. would have taken responsibility and acted, but statute of limitations prevented that and the police report I filed was so watered down it left me feeling my abuser was being protected by his close friends at the police department and DA’s office.

    Alex, I have been dealing with another spiritual abuse case in which I believe the pastor has used his position in the community and relationship with people in government in order to cover up abuses. We know that bully pastors are typically narcissists who have a way of charming people and manipulating them into silence (Raymond, I’m talking about you, if you’re reading).

    You have hit a roadblock at every turn. Many people had the opportunity to intervene on your behalf, but elected not to. That is shameful. After following your case for these past months and reading countless stories, I completely understand your drive. And what makes you completely credible to me is that this is not just about you and your abuse situation, but you see the full picture of the systemic abuse which is essentially the substance of your blog. Brother, GOOD FOR YOU and THANK YOU!

  79. @ Julie Anne:
    Thanks Julie! I got a couple of tweets out to MM and PJ. I only follow a handful of folks and think only 3 people follow me so its a teeny drop in the bucket.

  80. Anne wrote:

    @ Julie Anne:
    Thanks Julie! I got a couple of tweets out to MM and PJ. I only follow a handful of folks and think only 3 people follow me so its a teeny drop in the bucket.

    Anne – Am I following you? Can you tweet me so I can follow you and retweet? (@DefendtheSheep) These are the names I found so far.
    @BrianBrodersen
    @raul_ries
    @PanchoJuarez1

  81. Julie Anne wrote:

    Alex, I have been dealing with another spiritual abuse case in which I believe the pastor has used his position in the community and relationship with people in government in order to cover up abuses.

    Has anyone thought of getting State-level authorities involved? When the Bell city corruption scandal broke, it was being investigated by State and Federal authorities because the city-level authorities were the ones under suspicion. If Visalia PD has been compromised, you might try to kick things up to County/State/Federal level under suspicion of corruption. Maybe Bob Junior isn’t the only one sitting on Bob’s knee bragging how I’m Bob’s Favorite and He Loves Me…

  82. Rusty wrote:

    @ Egalitarianism does not guarantee Godly marriages anymore than complementarianism breeds destructive marriages..

    I agree that egalitarianism does not guarantee Godly marriages. But complementarianism does breed destructive marriages. In a few cases, we have men so mature that they never use their “final say” card, who never want to make a stupid decision while their wife knows better, so the inherent destructiveness of complementarianism lands on infertile ground and does not breed. But complementarianism is inherently destructive.

  83. Not Alone

    Welcome to TWW. I was furious about the article about the lawsuit.

    The newspaper reporter showed a surprising lack of understanding about why one child might take the father’s side. This can oocur in highly abusive homes in which the one “good” child avoids abuse and gains the “good kid” title by the parents.  Unfrotunately such a kid can be far sicker than those who are abused and admit to the abuse. These type of people can suspend reality to keep themselves safe and that can carry over into many other parts of life.

    The other point missed by this reporter is the detail offered by Paul. Such detail recalling exact methods, where they occurred, etc. leads me to think that reports are indeed true. So, perhaps the reporter is not well educated?

  84. Not Alone wrote:

    The local rag finally ran a story. FYI, it’s going make you angry.

    So it looks like Pastor Bob not only has Visalia PD in his Godly pocket, but also the Visalia newspaper. Is the paper’s editor a member of Calvary Chapel Visalia? Fighting the Culture War for Christ?

  85. First, I appreciate all of the kind words that have been extended to myself and Alex. While I do not comment publicly, I wanted to take this opportunity to address and clarify a few things.

    I read this morning’s article in the Fresno Bee and I have found Lewis Griswold to be fair and honest during my conversations with him. I do believe he has an ethical duty as a journalist to cover both sides of the story and while I have shared my experience by way of a Declaration in court proceedings, Lewis Griswold did not misquote me or misrepresent anything I told him and I respect him for doing so.

    As far as Bob and Gayle Grenier’s comments to the press they are free to say what they would like. I do not give any thought nor concern myself with the words that come out of their mouths. Gayle Grenier did nothing to stop the abuse she actually witnessed so there is no way she would have stopped abuse she did not see. Gayle, not I, has to live with that reality and she is the one we should be praying for. It is truly a tragedy the way Gayle’s life has turned out.

    I would like to point out that Chief Mestas, who at the time I was writing my Declaration, I believed to be a person who was honest and ethical, I now believe to be quite the opposite. Chief Mestas “distinctly” remembers our conversation because of the subject matter. She and I know exactly what we talked about because she asked me if I wanted to make a report that day regarding sexual abuse and I told her I was not ready to do so. I would not file charges in Tulare County because of Bob’s relationship with local law enforcement.

    I have known Chuck Smith since I was a young child and he and Dave Rolph have treated me extremely fairly and I have no issue with either of them. Chuck actually took my phone call at his home and was more than gracious and kind toward me (consistent with how he has always interacted with me) and ended the conversation praying for me.

    Lastly, I would like to address Bob directly as I know he reads this blog.

    Bob: I read your quotes in today’s article of The Fresno Bee. I truly hope you get the help you need. You, not I, have brought shame on yourself and your family. I am not ashamed of who I am. I am not ashamed for telling the truth. And I am not ashamed I am gay. I am however ashamed of you and all the evil you have done to me, my brothers and the scores of people you have caused serious emotional hurt to during your tenure at Calvary Chapel Visalia.

    You are quoted as saying you would welcome a criminal suit being filed against you. I am well aware of your veiled threats and why you say things the way you do. I got your message loud and clear today. I will be speaking with your brother about this matter of proceeding with a criminal suit as he is aware of all you have done and the only person that knows the true story of your life.

    Do not think your comments today fell on deaf ears. You do not scare me anymore and I know you are trying to bait me into a criminal suit to put my life on trial and humiliate me as you would have the opportunity to present a defense wherein I would be character assassinated and maligned.

    Be careful what you wish for. Your brother and CD aren’t going to let you push me around and try to silence me. One thing you never have understood about me is that you, not I, care about what people think. It is because of all the things you hide in your life. I don’t care if anyone believes me Bob. I know what you did. You however care so much about what people think of you that you propounded this lawsuit against Alex in an effort to silence him.

  86. Paul

    I am so very, very sorry for what has happened to you. I only wish I could have been around to hug you were you were a little boy. When I read your story in the deposition, I was impressed by the details of your account. People who file false accounts rarely do so in such a detailed manner because each detail increases the risk of being able to prove otherwise. You were brave to do so.

    The sad thing about pedophilia is that it is almost always done in secret. Therefore it is incumbent on those judging the situation to think about who has the most to lose by the truth coming out. You have already come out. By coming speaking of these atrocities, you have only opened yourself up to pain. Bob, on the other hand has a lot to lose, along with pain to come, if you win.

    Paul, it does not matter to me that you are gay in judging this situation. In fact, anyone who raises that as an issue is despicable. If you ever have need of support, please contact Justin Lee at the Gay Christian Network. You might find him most supportive during this time. We did a post on him on this blog. Here is the link to his organization. Tell him Dee told you to call.

    In life, each one of us has to weigh the evidence before us. No objective individual was inside that house when this occurred. I have no dog in this hunt except for the fact that I despise child abuse in all forms. After reading your account, I believe you are telling the truth. I believe that Bob is a despicable individual for suing his own children. A real man of God would believe that God is in charge of his ministry.A real man of God would put it into His capable hands.  Whether it fails or succeedsl is in His hands.  If Bob’s ministry is failing, then Bob needs to hand that over to God and let Him take control of the future of His church.   If God wants it to succeed, no lawsuit could stand in His way.

    I will be praying for you. You have a friend in Raleigh.

     

     

  87. Paul, I love you.

    I know that took a lot of courage to state publicly.

    Bob is a bad man and speaking out about it is right and righteous. He can sue me all he wants. I wouldn't file in Tulare County, Bob has such strong connections there as evidenced by the "who's who" of local law enforcement top brass endorsing his book "A Common Miracle" and the fact they have spoken from his pulpit, he has campaigned for them, he is one of their own as an agent representing their departments etc etc.

    Many there don't like him, and some have confided in me, but they are afraid to speak up. I'm hoping the State Justice Department would take a serious look at it. It can't be filed in Tulare County or Visalia. The anonymous "letter" is just received confirms my suspicions about the close ties even with Mestas due to a reported bible study and connection through Floyd Westbrook (according to the letter). Hang in there bro. Many love you and support you.

  88. After reading the artcle and getting angry all over again, I thought would you have expected any different from Bob? My answer was, no he responded exactly the way I thought he would. I have zero respect for that man and it is my opinion that he will destroy himself because of his self deception. Bob you cannot lie to God. God knows you better than you know yourself. You are digging a pit for yourself. This situation is grievious and I have lost sleep and I have a sadness that has gripped my heart for years since I left CCV. My pain is not for myself but for those you have carelessly tossed aside and trampled on. God is longsuffering but you have taken his grace toward you for granted and there will come a day when His anger will not be quenched.

  89. Paul, I believe every word you say. As a victim myself of this type of abuse I totally understand. I want you to know that I am praying for you and I love you. Be strong! Alex has my number if you need to talk.

  90. Oh, and for the record, the guy that left the comment on the Fresno Bee article that said Alex and Paul were psychopaths…..is crazy himself! I know these boys and the only one that is a psychopath is the youngest. He is the one that scares me.

  91. Paul you are a light in this dark world. You have truth and that is something no one can take from you. My prayer is that a great beam of light will pierce the sky directly on Bob and that there will be no place he can hide. You are right, he can say all he wants and many of us have personally witnessed his spin on words and his dodging of the truth.

    GOD SEES IT PAUL. HE HAS CHOSEN TO TRAMPLE OUR SAVIOUR UNDER HIS FOOT FORGETTING ABOUT THE PRICE GOD PAID FOR YOU, ME AND HIM. HE HAS DONE THIS BY A LACK OF REPENTANCE IN MY OPINION.

  92. @ Paul Grenier:
    I just have to tell you what an inspiration you are for speaking up to expose Bob’s lies. What you did was very brave. I hope it brings peace and strength to you, and saves many others from suffering under Bob’s evil influence. I always find it interesting when someone “outs” someone as being gay as if that somehow reflects on their character. My sister is lesbian. She and her partner treat me and my family with more kindness, respect, and courtesy than all the people I used to attend church with. Go figure. It makes me angry when being gay is used as a slur. Bob deserves all the shame, and I hope the Lord brings justice for you and your brother.

  93. I do not know anything about this situation and have only met one person in my life from a Calvery Chapel church. But what Paul said here reasonated with my experience in the mega industrial complex:

    “ne thing you never have understood about me is that you, not I, care about what people think. It is because of all the things you hide in your life. I don’t care if anyone believes me Bob. I know what you did. You however care so much about what people think of you that you propounded this lawsuit against Alex in an effort to silence him.”

    Oh yes, they care what folks think! In the mega industrial complex you will find many police officers and gov’t officials. They are actually courted. In some churches, they are hired as protection so that is money for them when they are off duty and it is easy duty as they get to hang with the celebs.

    The celebs stack the deck to their advantage. I know of one church where many of the local news anchors go!

    So, in order to deal with any such hidden evil a person has to totally disdain what the public will think of them. They have to be prepared to be ruined. It is that big of a job which is why few do it. And the folks who will turn on you in an instant are the “Christians”.

    Paul, you have my admiration. It takes courage to do what you are doing. Most folks have no idea the lengths these guys have gone to to prop up their position.

  94. Hi Paul:

    I am so glad to see your comment here. I don’t know if you’ve had a chance to read my blog, but wanted to let you know that people responded there, too, on my recent Calvary Chapel post and I hope you get a chance to read their heartfelt words. You have many friends in our combined blogs. Some readers have gone through both sexual abuse as well as spiritual abuse and they have some understanding of the pain you have dealt with. But probably most have not had their story in the limelight or had their own father/pastor, sue them. I am committed to blast a bullhorn about this and am working on this now and will fill Dee and Deb in when I have a plan.

    My heart and prayers go out to you, Paul. Please let me know if there’s anything I can do for you. Alex has my contact info. ~Julie Anne

  95. Paul, my beloved brother, thank you for your courage. Bless you. And thank you for giving the powers of justice the declaration they needed to bring this man down. I read it and cried, and I believe you are telling the truth. Be encourage and inspired because we are now witnessing the early signs of a Streisand Effect!

    It’s not just you and Alex anymore—God has given your brother an army.

    And we are committed to exposing and deposing “Pastor” Bob Grenier.

    There is nothing worse than an alleged sadistic pedophile — except one who also rapes little boys in the name of God.

    Bob — may God have mercy on your soul!

  96. @ Tina: Tina, you are very right. There are many reasons why BG has gotten away with so much over the years. Alex’s blog and others have done a good job of framing the political structure, or if you prefer, the church governance structure, of most if not all CC’s. I think it is always bad or potentially ominous to create a structure without real accountability. Just look at the way the USA has been structured. It’s not a perfect system but it is ingenious. Had I known from the start that CCV and CC on a larger scale were set up this way, I never would have remained there. I was deceived from the start. The elder board was just window dressing. Essentially only BG and Greg Dowds run that non-profit. It really is just a business to them. Their spirituality, in practice, is so far from the way Jesus displays his character through empowered believers, that it raises great suspicion about whether to listen to any advice they offer.

  97. Paul, you know I believe every word you have shared here and in other places. I have told many people that when you speak with Paul Grenier, you will hear the truth. I am sure this ordeal is very painful and excruciating for you to endure. To be honest myself Paul, you are the straw that will break the camel’s back in this story. You know that. There is corruption in Visalia, and it is not a place to find a fair hearing. It is severely biased against you boys because the claims are so egregious. For those just exposed to this account of yours, they just sit in silent incredulity. They first say, “This just cannot be true.” They may be well acquainted with Bob Grenier, the public figure, and know nothing of his well guarded private life. That doesn’t change the fact that these accusations have been made, and must be fully aired out. By that, I mean the accounts must be verbalized in the presence of supposed impartial third-party observers, cross examining statements to see which accounts can stand in reasonable light. I know that if you, Alex, and Geoff were given such a place to carefully, and accurately make your statements, most like those within the blog world would see the consistency and reasonableness of all your statements and would listen much more compassionately. I don’t see many people that Bob has known in Visalia for thirty plus years come to his defense. There may be several hundred in Visalia, if they could gather up the courage to do it, that would stand with you boys, and give an account of the bullying that took place in their lives due to BG’s abuse. I am standing with you Paul because this is a clear cause for justice regardless of the religious superficiality we see surrounding your father’s life.@ dee:

  98. Paul,
    I too stand with Bryan and can be counted on as one of the 100’s who believe you and all that you and your brothers endured. I pray that you and Alex continue on in the wisdom and strength of God to take this to a just conclusion.

  99. Summer wrote:

    I know these boys and the only one that is a psychopath is the youngest. He is the one that scares me.

    You mean Bob Junior, Heir to the Throne?

  100. monax wrote:

    And we are committed to exposing and deposing “Pastor” Bob Grenier.

    There is nothing worse than a sadistic pedophile—except one who also rapes little boys in the name of God.

    “There’s nothing worse than a monster who thinks he’s right with God.”
    — Captain Mal Reynolds, Free Trader Serenity, Verse Cluster

  101. anon 1 wrote:

    Oh yes, they care what folks think! In the mega industrial complex you will find many police officers and gov’t officials. They are actually courted. In some churches, they are hired as protection so that is money for them when they are off duty and it is easy duty as they get to hang with the celebs.

    Remember the beginning of The Godfather? How the other Five Families want access to all the police officers and government officials (like judges and DAs) Don Corleone has in his pocket/bought and paid for? And how the Don’s refusal sparks the big Mafia war that forms the main plot?

  102. Alex wrote:

    Many there don’t like him, and some have confided in me, but they are afraid to speak up. I’m hoping the State Justice Department would take a serious look at it. It can’t be filed in Tulare County or Visalia. The anonymous “letter” is just received confirms my suspicions about the close ties even with Mestas due to a reported bible study and connection through Floyd Westbrook (according to the letter).

    Like I said before, re the City of Bell corruption scandal down in LA County. You’ll have to get Sacramento or the Feds involved. Visalia City and Tulare County have been compromised. I would start digging for conflict-of-interest dirt on the Tulare County and Visalia City cops and employees and officials who are in Pastor Bob’s pocket for presentation to the State- and Federal-level boys.

  103. I question why this suit is in Visalia or the surrounding county. The attorneys representing the defendants should go the the court and request it be reassigned to another court. It is clear that it may be impossible to have a fair hearing in that county. If the local court denies the transfer, then that should be appealed immediately.

  104. “The wheels of justice grind slowly but exceedingly fine…” You would think that Bob would have an inkling of what is to come being that nothing is hidden from God’s eyes… the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
    Seems like some bad fruit will be shouted from the rooftop if he doesn’t come to his senses…

  105. It is generally the law that a suit is brought in the defendant’s location not in the plaintiff’s location. So, why is Alex being sued where Bob lives??? Only because Tim was also named as a defendant. Are there specific allegations against Tim that justify the suit being there or not. Probably only weak ones and that is another reason to move to relocate the suit.

  106. I am not trying to be hurtful here, in fact, I believe the allegations against Bob Grenier to be true. But, if you are serious about bringing him to justice Paul may have no choice but to file charges in Visalia. Bob Grenier could not be any bigger/more popular/more influential with the local police/politicians or what have you than Jerry Sandusky was in Pennsylvania and his victims ultimately received justice. I wonder if attacking him online is only hurting your case. You will be painted as an attention seeking, vindictive, slanderer and your own words and actions may come back to haunt you. The wheels of justice do indeed turn slowly, but at least if you have a case in court, other victims and witnesses will be forced to testify.

  107. An Attorney –

    Would the plaintiff go so far as to name Tim as a defendant just so the case could be heard in the plaintiff’s desired county/court. And all the while the courts (people in the court system in this case) may be aware of this? If true, it would be vile.

  108. anonymous

    Welcome  to TWW. “I wonder if attacking him online is only hurting your case. You will be painted as an attention seeking, vindictive, slanderer and your own words and actions may come back to haunt you.”

    Actually, the online blogging community has been the reason that these cases are finally getting the attention that they deserve. Before, one was reliant on word of mouth and  an entrenched media that could choose what and what not to publish.  Blogging is changing the face of cover up and churches have had a hard time adjusting. Two famous recent suits-Julie Anne Smith-BGBC and Tom Rich-FBC Jax Watchdog have been decided decisvely in favor of the bloggers.This is precedent setting.

    Slander does not work in these cases.It is important to understand that slander, libel, etc are legal definitions. Churches throw this around willy nilly and are often surprised to find out the the law allows you to say really, lreally bad things about others so long as you have a reason to be lieve it is true. So, if Paul believes Bob molested him and has some reason to believe it to be true, then Bob has not been slandered, defamiled, whatever. However, if on ths blog I accused Joel Osteen of being a cross dresser, and I know that he is not a cross dresser, then I could get in big trouble.

    So long as one writes, or says, what one believes to be true, then there is no recourse for the other side unless they can prove that the person is deliberately lying. That is very difficult to do in this instance. Paul, Alex and Tom have nothing personal to gain by theit action. Bob, on the other hand, has a lot to lose. Also, Bob appears to like being in the public eye, as a “witness” of course, which makes it even more difficult since often public figures have less recourse than private figures.

    This is a First Amendment Right issue and they will prevail, no matter how closed Visalia is. I also happen to believe that there are good people in the public judicial system and that the truth will prevail. 

  109. I think we need to be very cautious of painting all of law enforcemnt and the justice system as “in Bob’s pocket” There may well be many that would not cross “that thin blue line” but many I beleive just cannot believe this “man of God” could have done these vile deeds. Many are hoping against hope that it is not true, because how shameful and embarrasing to have been taken in by this fraudulent and evil man…no one wants to believe that they can be so easily conned. There are good cops, bad cops, good pastors, and those that the bible calls wicked, false prophets and teachers who only name the name of Christ for monetary gain. The prophet Micah says “He has to you, O man what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” (6:8) For years, myself included, many who were wrongly treated by Bob were merciful with Bob’s “faults” wanting to live out “love covers a multitude of sins”, but when his sons came out and told their story, the time for mercy is over, now justice must prevail. Let us pray for those who God has allowed to be in a position to execute justice in this serious violation of God’s law and man’s law. Pray that they would be faithful and fulfill their duty to God and and people of their city and county that they have committed to serve within the law they uphold.

  110. Dee – You mention something important – that Bob likes to be in the public eye. That is part of defamation lawsuits. Bob is a public figure in that he is a pastor, has an online presence, YouTube, blog, etc. Alex’s discussion of Bob is of public interest. In fact, Alex and Tim’s attorneys could take a screen shot of this blog post I am responding to and demonstrate that this subject is of interest to the public. My attorney did take screen shots of my blog/comments. She also showed the court that at a certain point I had over 100K hits, etc. This is all important and I’m sure Alex and Tim’s attorneys will provide such evidence. Bob is clearly attempting to shut Alex and Tim down and is interfering with their right to free speech.

  111. Anti-SLAPP is really the most prudent way to deal with it; otherwise it would get stuck in the court system with depositions, lots and lots of time and effort and money involved. Anti-SLAPP is a godsend for defendants in a defamation lawsuit. Think of how quickly my case was handled: I got the legal complaint March 1 and the final judge’s ruling July 26. That is a very speedy process for a lawsuit.

  112. @ Bridget:
    It happens. Not exactly the most ethical thing to do, but sometimes there are reasons, usually financial or licensure (save plaintiff money, keep the case in a jurisdiction where the attorney is licensed). I do not consider it proper. BTW, in most states, the only people who can complain about at attorney’s ethics are the person they represent, perhaps a judge, and sometimes the state bar itself or a panel they have set up. People on the other side, including attorneys, are generally barred from bringing a complaint.

  113. @ dee:

    Yes, but I also think they could file a motion to relocate the case including the Anti-SLAPP motion, at least to a neutral jurisdiction.

  114. @ An Attorney:

    Our attorneys are prepared to go to the Court of Appeals if the local judge rules against us. They aren’t concerned about the venue. They actually have heard that our judge in this case is a pretty straightforward legal guy and we expect a just and correct ruling. But, as they say, hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

    I agree that it would be hard to get a fair shake in Visalia/Tulare County regarding an “investigation” by law enforcement, that’s my opinion due to the close relationships BG has with them and that he is part of the agencies.

    We are hopeful that the judge is removed from BG (and we believe he is, there is nothing to indicate otherwise). We know that the Appeal’s Court doesn’t know BG or his connections, so that is our fall-back position. Personally, I’ve heard nothing but good things about the judge we have, so that’s partly why we’re OK with the current venue.

    As to Paul filing criminal charges in Visalia/Tulare County…if my Child Abuse charges and subsequent watered down police report are any indication, I wouldn’t trust that he’ll get a fair shake on an “investigation”. When I was interviewed at the VPD, one of the two detectives in the room where the interview was recorded was Jeff McIntosh, son of one of BG’s best friends, Judy McIntosh. Very cozy there at the VPD.

  115. An Attorney, does this raise a red flag to you:

    Detective Bill Diltz (Diltz and McIntosh interviewed me at the VPD a few years ago when I pressed criminal child abuse charges against BG) told me that the District Attorney (at the time, Phil Cline, Bob’s friend who endorsed his book) said the case was rejected due to “Statute of Limitations”.

    …yet, the Fresno Bee article says it was “too much time had passed”

    That seems odd to me for some reason. To me, that may mean it wasn’t in fact Statute but rather the opinion of the DA that “too much time had passed”???? Dunno, seems a bit of an anomaly.

    If Statute of Limitations isn’t an issue, maybe I could amend my Police Report and see if the new DA would prosecute the case?

  116. This case is certainly a concern of the public precisely due to the reasons dee shares above. The very structure of the CC movement prevents a legitimate complaint to surface and to be effectively resolved. There are many blog posts to support that. It has never been a first choice, nor a comfortable choice, to bring these complaints to the wider public eye. This is the Church’s dirty laundry. And in this case, it involves an entrenched pastor of some renown in his own community. We have seen how the suppression of these accusations have festered over the years, and caused great harm to many sincere believers. That is clearly wrong, and should never be tolerated in the name of Christ. Jesus has modeled behavior toward hypocritical religious leaders, and we should not be shy in following his lead, as a last resort. Truth must be found out. There cannot be two liars. One is hiding it, and it’s time to find out who it is.

  117. An Attorney, I would also like to get a copy of the recorded interview.

    I believe I recall telling the detectives about BG making me shower with him and about BG walking around our house naked in front of us all the time, and making us strip naked in front of him to get our “spankings” (which often resulted in bruises, open wounds etc on lower back, backs of legs and buttocks, in addition to much other forms of abuse). I don’t recall him ever touching me in a sexual nature or molesting me, and I believe I told the detectives that in the interview as well.

    Some are questioning recent comments I made recalling some of what I felt was “weird” when I was a kid, like the showering and BG walking around naked all the time, etc, but stuff I did not consider sexual abuse. BTW, I told others years and years ago about the weird stuff as well as the child abuse.

    Friends of mine who are licensed experienced therapists and experts on issues of abuse are telling me they consider some of that behavior “grooming” in their opinion.

    I view it much differently now in light of Paul’s allegations.

    I would like to see if it was in the interview I gave, I think it was. I followed up the interview with emails that are acknowledged on the report just in case. Much of the most serious allegations didn’t make the report, and were in the interview and in the emails.

  118. BG should be able to mount a defense from some very upstanding Visalia and Tulare County residents who know him well, and can attest to his sterling character. Of course, they may have to recuse themselves due to their associations that cause a conflict of interest but they should have the moral resolve to stand up for a great man like Bob Grenier. So where are they? In this suit, his defenders are family, and his best friend who has been part of CCV for years. If he is an upstanding man, Visalia would pour out their support for him since he has faithfully served it’s people for about 40 years. The truth is, there are more people in Visalia who used to attend CCV but now do not than those (550?) that now do. Since when was a church of 550 considered a mega-church? Maybe the article in the Fresno Bee was referring to his international audience of millions that he addresses each Sunday morning. He is hardly a lowly community pastor.

  119. Alex

    You said this

    “shower with him and about BG walking around our house naked in front of us all the time, and making us strip naked in front of him to get our “spankings” (which often resulted in bruises, open wounds etc on lower back, backs of legs and buttocks, in addition to much other forms of abuse”

    I believe that could be considered by some as sexually suggestive.

  120. Wasn’t there already a hearing in Idaho and it got shot down? Maybe I misheard at one point…

    I think it would be to Alex’s advantage to have the case heard in California not Idaho due to the Anti-SLAPP laws in California. Idaho may have similar laws, not sure if they are as strong.

    Bob will do what Hanegraaff did before him with Alnor and crow victory even when he loses due to the Anti-SLAPP. And he will have to pay attorney’s fees out to Alex’s defense attorneys but won’t that just come out of the church coffers anyway? I expect something like “I tried to defend my honor but the corrupt courts prevented it…”

    Bill Alnor’s case was very weak but he still prevailed against Hanegraaff (Christian Research Institute) since he said what he believed to be true – even though parts of his claims were not demonstratably true.

  121. @ Alex:
    Tell you what, if I was to give a testimony to the police I’d definitely ask for it to be recorded and that I be given a copy of that recording. Sad when we feel we can’t trust those in positions of trust.

  122. Doug

    I have reason to believe that there is some movement. There are some good people out there. I wish I could say more but I can’t at this time. I would pray for those good people in positions of trust. 

  123. @ Alex:

    To many lay people, the “statute of limitations” is arcane language that means “too much time has passed”! The limit in the statute of limitations is a time period, usually expressed in years, beyond which a suit, civil or criminal, cannot be brought over or about some event in the past.

  124. @ Alex:
    Whether the interview tape was kept or not is the first issue. Your attorneys could subpoena any records of that interview, including any tape or transcript. They would be the ones to do that for you.

  125. Oh Alex, as I read your comments on not knowing if what was done to you had a sexual element…as a worker with teenagers I would say that that is very inappropriate behaviour, an adult man walking around naked (unless the family are naturists & this is part of normal culture) & getting young men to undress for physical punishments makes every alarm bell go off in my head. Absolutely, for definite, not right & yes, I would say grooming…trying to get young men to accept inappropriate nakedness & behaviours so that subsequent behaviour would not seem as shocking or wrong…for someone in average christian culture that puts a high value on modesty & sexual chastity this is exceptionally odd behaviour.
    I am so sorry you had to go through this awful, repulsive & wrong behaviours from someone who was supposed to be trustworthy. More power to your case.

  126. dee wrote:

    Actually, the online blogging community has been the reason that these cases are finally getting the attention that they deserve. Before, one was reliant on word of mouth and an entrenched media that could choose what and what not to publish.

    Especially when in this case it appears that Pastor Bob not only has the Visalia PD in his pocket, but the local media. Ever heard of the phrase “doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunevents”? AKA if the Media never mentions it, It Never Happened?

  127. dee wrote:

    “shower with him and about BG walking around our house naked in front of us all the time, and making us strip naked in front of him to get our “spankings” (which often resulted in bruises, open wounds etc on lower back, backs of legs and buttocks, in addition to much other forms of abuse”

    I believe that could be considered by some as sexually suggestive.

    “Considered”? Erotic Flagellation (spanking for orgasm) was THE upper-class kink of Victorian England, a popular subject in Victorian porn, and according to one guy I know is still a widespread kink and porn shtick.

  128. I have always wondered about Bob’s involvement in the military. He made a big deal about serving in Vietnam which, in my opinion, he used over the years to impress law enforcement people. I guess he was leapfrogging from Canada over all those draft dodgers flocking to Canada like geese. Remember those announcements he would make in front of the congregation for the exclusive Bible study for “law enforcement only”? After reading his very poorly written book, I was convinced that his “uncommon” testimony was even more questionable and the timeline of his life didn’t add up. It was like Bob was competing with the testimonies of other superstar Calvary pastors. Bob’s story was even better (or worse?) than Mike Macintosh’s “I thought half my brain was missing” testimony. Maybe Bob’s older brother could clear up all these questions. My point is that the law enforcement community is enamored with BG and I can understand why Paul was hesitant to file charges in this county and Chief Mestas has proven it by her comments in the Fresno Bee. Shame on her!

  129. Pingback: Calvary Chapel Visalia Lawsuit, Local News Article, Court Declaration | Spiritual Sounding Board UNITED STATES

  130. @ Raymond:
    Raymond, don’t worry. Because if he gets locked up, his genitals will be paddled a lot. And he’ll deserve every inch of it. Pun intended.

    Paul and Alex, I send you my most heartfelt love. I am SO So sorry you had to endure this monster of a low-life. What a seething lunatic Bob is. He deserves to be outcast and scorned for life.

  131. @ dee:
    Dee: How much professional experience have you had investigating allegations like this? As a retired court investigator, I have submitted over 2000 reports to California courts under penalty of perjury. I can tell you from experience that just because allegations are “detailed” does not mean they are true. Often, in reviewing allegations from opposing parties in cases I was assigned to, the allegations contained minute details that sounded very persuasive on the surface, but once in-depth investigation was initiated, were found to be completely false or misleading. In reviewing your profile I find nothing that would qualify you to be an investigator in a case like this. It sounds like you are emotionally invested and as such that alone would disqualify you. In reading this blog, I can form no opinion as to this man’s guilt or innocence. Unfortunately, by posting it in the manner you have, you are forming the reader’s opinions for them and he is already tried, judged and executed in their minds. Too many people are willing to arrive at conclusions based on unqualified and probably uninformed bloggers. You jeopardize the objectivity of this investigation by your public airing of this case and you seem to be especially interested in airing dirty Christian laundry in general. What is your agenda Dee?

  132. Juan  PPSS

    I am a nobody. I have always said I was nothing special. I am not a professional. I am sure you are far more qualifed to do a professional investigation. I did do child abuse and neglect followup for a few years as a young visiting nurse but I am certainly not a trained journalist. 

    And, in direct opposition to the comment that  Paul just left, I complimented Chief Mestas. I think well of her.  

    In the end, incest and abuse is hidden with few witnesses. It is carried on in secret. Therefore, we must rely on the testimony of both sides in the matter. We make judgment based on the testimony, none of which can be definitively proven. We all make judgments based on the evidence. Casey Anthony was let off. OJ was let off. Does this mean that they were not guilty? 

    Something really bad appears to have gone on in Grenier’s family. My children are grown and there are no accusations of sexual abuse coming back to haunt us. In fact, there are very few Christian families in which this happens. I leave it to the couts to decide the matter.

    May God give clarity to all innolved in this case. 

  133. Weird comment by “Juan”. Doesn’t mean the allegations aren’t true either and there is a lot of corroboration from multiple sources and a confession of punching one of my brothers in the face (corroborated by several former pastors, CCV board member, and even a declaration given in support of BG had to acknowledge the confession BG made.

    Skepticism is fine, Juan, do your homework, read all the declarations in the lawsuit BG propounded, read the testimonies on my blog, etc.

  134. I think Juan will find that there is one person’s story who has a ton of holes in it and a ton of lying…and that’s BG’s story.

  135. Alex– EXACTLY! Too many stories. Too many corroborative ones at that. And too many other victims of this poor excuse of a man. You and Paul are precious and worthy of full abiding love. I send my love to you both.

    I’m going to join Julie Anne on Twitter this afternoon. She is a forcE! Go Julie!

  136. …And Dee and Deb are AMAZING women and a force themselves. I love knowing that such loving women are siding with you. I can’t count the times I received motherly love from them when I needed it most.

  137. Juan sounds biased. Sure, he’s welcome to have an opinion, but his is no better than any one else’s. I still stand by Alex, Paul, and Tim.

  138. Summer wrote:

    YEP! BOBBY JR IS EXACTLY WHO I MEAN!

    Well, Stuff Fundys Like had a posting once on “How to become a CELEBRITY Mega-Pastor”.

    The Number One way was “Be born the son of a CELEBRITY Mega-pastor. Especially if you have your Dad’s name followed by ‘Junior’.”

    The Number Two way was “If CELEBRITY Mega-pastor has no sons (or none he acknowledges) but DOES have daughters, Court(TM) and marry one of his daughters.”

    I remember from cathechism class that one of the reasons my church (RCC) went with preistly celibacy was that in an era where governments and nations were inherited like any other personal property, a lack of legitimate heirs would prevent (or at least make it difficult) to establish Royal Dynasties within the Church. And head off the inheritance blood feuds/Game of Thrones when there was a succession.

  139. In my experience in dealing with this situation since 2004, there are hardened folks in BG’s Camp who wouldn’t believe it if we had BG on video abusing us. You have to look at the entire story and see all the corroboration from former CCV pastors, former secretaries, former bookkeepers, former long time members, family members, BG’s own testimony of being a “drug dealer and drug smuggler” who got away with it while flying the Lt. Gov. of Florida around (in BG’s book “A Common Miracle”) etc.

    Where there’s smoke, there is fire. If “Juan” the “investigator” turned his guns on BG, he’d find more holes than golf course, heck more holes than block of swiss cheese.

    “Juan” is most likely what I’ve experienced many times, turning the tables on the victims, rather than scrutinizing BG’s story and history of problems and massive amounts of testimonies, many now in Court Declarations on the official court record.

  140. HUG–

    WE might not be professional investigators but we are professionals at detecting some BS, aren’t we? Something smells stinky and I dont have enough Febreeze to cover it. Juan does have a point in that people lie in investigations, etc… But the fact that he had to point that out is interesting. I dont need to be a professional investigator to understand context, events, issues that are happening in the church and that there are some things coming to light in the evangelical world that are exposing these frauds for what they are.

    Juan’s POV tell you where he is coming from. He sees Dee/Deb as one who enjoys airing dirty Christian laundry, vs seeing them as people who love and honor the character of Christ by BEING Christ to others, especially those who are abused in the name of Christ, marginalized in the name of Christ, tortured (as Alex and Paul allegedly were) in the name of Christ, and made lowly in spirit and contrite–in the name of Christ. Juan sees THAT as taking delight in airing dirty laundry. Interesting perspective, that is. No Country for Enablers! (or dirty old pastors)

  141. Your Mom wrote:

    I have always wondered about Bob’s involvement in the military. He made a big deal about serving in Vietnam which, in my opinion, he used over the years to impress law enforcement people.

    So did a certain Senator John F (“When I Served in Vietnam…”) Kerry. Look how that went over.

    After reading his very poorly written book, I was convinced that his “uncommon” testimony was even more questionable and the timeline of his life didn’t add up.

    Like Mike Warnke & L Ron Hubbard?

    It was like Bob was competing with the testimonies of other superstar Calvary pastors. Bob’s story was even better (or worse?) than Mike Macintosh’s “I thought half my brain was missing” testimony.

    As in “Can You Top This?”

  142. Also interesting to me that “Juan” and others like him, often focus on “agenda” vs. sorting out what is corroborated testimony, what is fact and what patterns have emerged over the course of 35 years and what BG reports in his own words in his gory “testimony” and his book as well as colorful stories BG told from the public CCV pulpit over the years about “a gash in the popcorn ceiling” he made when he “lost his temper” by raising a chair over his head and then smashed into pieces on the floor.

    BG would share stories like this from his public pulpit, many CCV’ers remember the stories. I was there, BG did in fact “lose his temper” many times and while he told the congregation some of the details, he left out the parts about threatening us and then beating us, etc.

  143. Oh, Juan is so full of it. “Too many people are willing to arrive at conclusions based on unqualified and probably uninformed bloggers.” That statement alone tells me he didn’t do any “investigating” of Alex, Paul, and Tim’s claims. They may be the only ones involved in the lawsuit, but anyone reading their blog will find MANY stories of other former CCers with complaints. Juan is the one who is uninformed. There are more than 2 or 3 witnesses to the abuses at CC.

  144. Thing is, most of us who are blogging about this BG case know each other personally and have experienced the “wrath of Bob”. That’s corroboration enough for me! He even left the door open when he bullied me at the church office for all to hear so when I read Paul’s account of Bob leaving the door open when he would beat the boys, I was not surprised. His behavior with me was so inappropriate. I found out very quickly that BG doesn’t like answering questions about his sermons and how dare I? I was very respectful and he lost his temper so quickly, I almost fell out of my chair. When I left Bob’s office, I told my husband, “I feel so sorry for his wife and kids.” I said this 3 years before the abuse became public and I did not know what many pastors/elders/insiders knew along. Shame on them!

  145. Your mom

    That is why it is important for blogs like us to discuss your situation. We have no dog in the CC hunt. I have never attended one and I do not personally know anyone involved in the leadership of CC. I just love people and believe that victims often must fight alone. So, I want to be one friend in the cause. I believe the accounts that I have read about this situation. Our theme song in these situations is “Yoy’ve got a friend in me.”
     

  146. Thank you Dee! btw I am familiar with the judge (per fresno bee article)sitting on this case and I have always known him to be very fair-minded, honorable and expert at following the law.
    Not even bob and all his “swagger” will be able to influence him.

  147. Pingback: As Jesus said… « Who Would Jesus Sue? UNITED STATES

  148. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    No Juan is not Calvary Chapel, Juan is exactly what he represented, a retired court investigator with vast experience in cases like this and others involving elder abuse, dependent adult abuse etc. I have no interest in this case, I only learned of it on this blogsite. My point is simply that cases like this should not be tried in the court of public opinion, they should be tried in a court of law and I’ve seen too many cases influenced by the media and often the truth is hidden or distorted. The tone of this article is very emotional and rhetorical, meaning using language that is designed to stir up emotions. This case should be decided upon the facts, not emotion. If there is evidence the man should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law regardless of who he is. FYI to all, in my opinion, child abuse and child molestation whether it is in the form of pedophilia, hebephilia or ephebophilia should be a capital offense. Experience has taught me that child molestors do not reform and the only way to stop them is to execute them. I believe they should receive a fair trial, meaning that the defense and the prosecution are funded with exactly the same amount for investigation and trial and if convicted, they should receive one review by a higher court and if the conviction is upheld, executed within 10 days. That would make the punishment bilical and would raise it to the level of seriousness it should be. By the same token, false accusers, if discovered should face serious repercussions for false allegations or testimony. And if you don’t believe this happens you are simply naive. I’m not alleging that in this case at all, but I think I’ve stated my reasons for my earlier post. Allegations alone, whether proven or true or not destroy lives and these matters are too serious to be bantered about on the internet by people who have no personal knowledge or people who have a vested self interest in the case.

  149. Dee: In response to your earlier question, “Why did I show up?” is simply that this article appeared on Christian Headlines, a major Christian news website similar to the Drudgereport which links to stories. When I logged on to your article, it was very strongly written and when I started reviewing the comments, there were a variety of strongly worded responses that had this “pastor” convicted based soley on this article. I can see that there is more to this story, but my point is that you as an apparently widely read blogger need to be careful how you construct your stories. Whenever you are reaching a worldwide audience, the only information any people may receive is what they read in this article alone. You as a journalist should not be the judge, jury and executioner. I apologize for the tone of my comments, but I have seen too many cases in which the legal outcomes have been influenced by public opinion rather than the facts or evidence. Depositions and allegations are not evidence until entered in by the trial court either by agreement of all parties, including the judge, or by testimony at which time the jury or trial judge has an opportunity to evaluate the credibility of witnesses.

  150. @ Juan: Just curious – what do you think of the Jerry Sandusky case?

    (I have a dog in that hunt, if only because this is, for me, a local story, with local kids who were really harmed.)

  151. @ Alex:
    Alex: First of all, if you are truly a victim, and I have no reason to believe you are not, I apologize for the perceived tone of my comments. My knowledge of this case is simply that of what appeared in the article above. That article is posted on Christian Headlines, which is a major worldwide website linking Christian news to the world at large. As a retired investigator, I get very disturbed when I see legal cases being tried by the court of public opinion because whether we like it or not, it does influence outcomes. My point is simply that in linking to this article, I read a very emotionally worded report about a very personal situation and then I read comments that have decided the guilt or innocence of various parties based on this article alone. I reviewed Dee’s profile and while she sounds like a very dedicated and nice lady, I questioned her ability to be objective in this article or her qualifications to essentially do an investigative report in a matter of this import. If the “pastor” is guilty, I truly hope he will receive justice, but I cannot determine that by the reading of this article alone, which was my point to begin with. My comment about her agenda was simply designed to get her to think about her objectivity in her reporting.

  152. Juan

    I know how the judicial system works. I said this before. I am NOT a journalist, never said I was, have no training to be so and do not consider myself an impartial writer. There are people in the news media who are referred to as editorialists or opinion makers. Even those in the journalism field have biases and they are evident based on my perusal of the news each day. I look at what I see and I make a judgement based on that. I believe in the Biblical injuction of the need for 2-3 witnesses and I believe that said judgment does not require input from a secular authority.

    Based on my discussions with two of the witnesses and the reading of the depositions, I am giving an opinion. I believe they are telling the truth and I get to say that because I write a blog on my opinions and my friend who blogs with me agrees with my opinions as I agree with her. I base my opinions on facts, narratives and discussions. As I said before, I believe OJ Simpson is guilty and Casey Anthony is guilty even though the legal system says they are innocent. That is my opinion. 

    Until 4 years ago, no one, outside of a few friends, knew who I was. I had no idea that anyone would read this blog. It was a labor of love and everyday my friend and I are shocked that people read us. I still don’t get it. I dedicate this blog to a group of molested boys at a former church who were poorly treated by the church leadership. This blog often takes the side of the little guy against the big guy. I do so out of the love of Jesus who called the Pharisee leaders of the day “white washed tombs” and spent his days caring for the lost and hurting. 

     

  153. Juan, One of the problems is the big names already have a “court of public opinion” going into these things. They are “big names” in a segment of the public for a reason. That gives them an advantage over the no name who does not have a respected position.

    I would hope most readers are smart enough to know this is a blog which is simply another word for opinion. It is not investigative reporting. It is giving the no names a voice.

    Blogging is simply leveling the playing field a tiny tiny bit. Giving a voice to the no names who have not had years of building up their names and gravitas in the public square.

  154. Juan

    This case will be decided by the courts so I do not see why you are so concerned. They decided against public opinion in the Casey Anthony and OJ Simspon cases so what the beef here? One little blogger expressing her concern will not make a difference in this case unless you think the jury will be swayed by my vaunted opinion. Then I will be in a state of shock. Old Dee, swaying judges and juries, huh? Oh Good Night! 

    And I want to say that I do NOT believe these men are false accusers. In fact, I am a bit irritated that you bring that up. I’ll tell you why. This blog exists to love and support people who have been abused. Many people who have been abused are accused of bearing false witness when they finally get the guts to say something. Once again, this blog exists to support such people. Why do I feel this is a subtle warning?  Maybe I am overtired…

    I also went over to that headline site and do not see us mentioned over there. Could you please let me know where we are in the list of headlines? It would be interesting to see how you linked to us.

  155. @ Juan:
    Juan said, “My point is simply that cases like this should not be tried in the court of public opinion, they should be tried in a court of law ”

    Yes, agreed that court is the best option for criminal matters like child abuse. That option was closed to me when I filed a police report several years ago.

    1. The report was watered down, much of the most serious stuff I reported did not make the “official” report.

    2. One of the two detectives who interviewed me was Jeff McIntosh, son of Judy McIntosh, very very close friends with BG and my mom.

    3. I was told by the other detective, Bill Diltz, that the District Attorney (Phil Cline at the time, a man who is friends with BG and who endorsed BG’s book “A Common Miracle” in the front of the book and a man who spoke at BG’s church and who BG campaigned for etc) said the case was rejected due to Statute of Limitations. Even so, the watered down report did corroborate some of the abuse. An Aunt and Uncle of ours gave testimony to Diltz that they witnessed one of by brothers being hit in the head/face by Bob. Three of four brothers gave testimonies of abuse and some of the specifics were in the report, specifics corroborated by three brothers. My brother Geoff recounted being sent to the principals office after a coach/teacher noticed bruises on him. He lied and told the school official he had fallen out of a tree, when in fact he recounts the same story Paul and i remember vividly of BG beating him with a tree pruning/branch that caused the bruises, etc.

    I went to BG about the abuse privately, he lied and denied it and wouldn’t take responsibility and then shunned me, removed the relationship with my mom, kicked me out of the family unit. I went to BG”s church board and elders and was stone walled. I went to CCOF (CC’s supposed accountability arm as I was referred to CCOF by CC pastor Gene Pensiero of Hanford who believed my testimony and said Roger Wing of CCOF would want to hear this matter and would do something. Pensiero told me that he witnessed BG “stoned on pills” during a mission’s trip they were on overseas. Pensiero, a former cop, told me that BG confessed a pill problem to him and later tried to retract the problem and minimize it. I am not afraid to tell this story b/c it is true and Pensiero would not lie if pressed. Pensiero had a problem with BG early on and after the pill incidents and confrontation and confession, the relationship went south, plus, being an ex-cop, Gene wasn’t conned by BG and didn’t like BG’s bully tactics etc.

    Back to CCOF, I was stone walled by Roger Wing and CCOF, they received my information and did nothing. I reported the abuses to Gary Ruff, Raul Ries and David Rosales who were on BG’s CCV Board at the time. I spoke with Gary Ruff, CC Pastor and brother-in-law of Raul Ries, for a couple of hours on the phone one day and told him about all the abuse. I was reminded by my brother Geoff that Gary Ruff had witnessed BG “tuning him up” which means striking Geoff in the face several times in a hotel hallway on a mission’s trip and then BG dragging Geoff into the room, the door closing and the screams, noises of physical contact and screaming/crying of Geoff. Geoff recounted to me how Gary Ruff had Geoff in his room later and Geoff confided in him about the physical abuse. Gary Ruff to this day won’t come forward with what he witnessed on that trip. I tell the story, b/c it is a true recounting of what did in fact happen. Gary later said he “wasn’t sure” if what he witnessed was abuse or not…which is the answer an investigator like yourself should be skeptical of. It’s the kind of answer that acknowledges he saw something while leaving what he saw open for interpretation so as not to have legal responsibility for not reporting the abuse.

    Ries, Ruff, Rosales all stone walled me after Gary realized I was serious as a heart-attack. Ruff told me to go to Bob with no preconditions, no expectations etc and to reconcile. I did go to Bob, as Gary had instructed, but I did not agree with going with no pre-conditions. I went to Bob and told him I had filed a police report about the abuse and that he needed to confess and repent of his abuse and his lying abou it and come clean before his board and church and seek reconciliation.

    After being stone walled by the prior groups of people from CC, after being told the police/govt. could do nothing, I ended up getting a hearing with Chuck Smith and his lawyer (and Dave Rolph). Me and my brother Geoff attended the meeting at the Logos Building conference room. I presented our personal testimony of abuse to Chuck Smith, Geoff told his story of abuse. Paul phoned his story in to Chuck and Dave Rolph and reported the physical and sexual abuse allegations. Paul did not attend this meeting as it was possible BG was going to be there and Paul did not want to be in the same room with him. I also presented testimonies from approximately 15-20 families that had been hurt in one manner or another by BG over the years at CCV, some of the testimony was from former staff, bookkeepers, pastors, board members etc. Some of the testimony is in the current lawsuit Declarations (sworn statements). Chuck Smith stone walled and denied any responsibility and took no action, even though he’s acted many times in the past over much far less serious issues with CC pastors.

    So, “court of public opinion” and exercising my rights to Free Speech is about the only option I’ve got. I can sympathize just a little (I stress a little) with a Chris Dorner. Dorner probably was treated unjustly at some level and probably had a legit beef or two. Unfortunately, he handled the injustice in a very wrong manner and committed crimes against innocent people…and Dorner faced justice at the end of a gun and a fire. Sometimes the System doesn’t work. Sometimes there are terrible injustices that slip through the cracks. Sometimes court is not an option on the table. Speaking out publicly and working through the “court of public opinion” is sometimes the only resort to any form of justice and accountability.

    In this case, it’s the only real option I’ve had this whole time…though Paul has a court option.

    If you take away my right to Free Speech, I have no way to deal with the injustice. Give me the court option, the criminal court option for my abuse…I would gladly take it.

  156. Dee … I went to:

    http://www.christianheadlines.com/

    and checked, and the link to this post’s title was at the bottom of the list of “Top Headlines” section (#30 out of 30 on the list). Don’t know how that site runs, and if that particular section scrolls down so that the last disappears as a new one is added to the stack, but it was there at 11:30-ish PM Eastern time …

  157. Another way I tried to get justice: I reached out to Marcy Hamilton, a Child Abuse Advocate and professor at Cardoza Law School. We dialogued online and I shared our story with her. She agreed to help me and she put me in touch with leading Child Abuse attorney Kelly Clark of Portland, Oregon. I interviewed with Kelly Clark’s office and while they get inundated with requests, I made it through the interview process and got a meeting with Kelly Clark in person and he took me and Paul as clients.

    At the time the California Supreme Court was ruling on removing the statute of limitations for civil cases for child abuse. When the ruling finally came down, it came down on the wrong side for us. My statute of limitations had expired and there was nothing Kelly could do to help me at that point, so again, I tried to get justice outside the “court of public opinion” to no avail. I did not like that option, but was told by many inside Calvary Chapel and many other pastors that that was a legitimate way to get justice and a hearing and judgment on the matter. The “church” and Chuck Smith and CC wanted to wash their hands of it (like Pilate) and wanted someone else to judge BG’s guilt or innocence. I am sure I will be smeared for seeking a civil court resolution and painted as wanting money, I did not want money, I wanted justice and someone to hear all the evidence and make a ruling, church and/or government, with all the facts on the table, all the testimonies, and BG’s defense.

    Again, I was denied the court as a venue. Speaking out is all I have left.

  158. The irony in all of this is that BG has the court option and has used it to try and punish me for speaking out.

    Bob filed a criminal libel complaint against me in Idaho, as Idaho has an old statute on the books in this area of the law.

    The police here launched an investigation against me. I have a local attorney and we decided it was actually an opportunity to reverse-prosecute the case. After initially cooperating with the detective, I decided, after my attorney’s input, to tell the Prosector to bring the case. We wanted to put Bob on the stand as well as several of the witnesses we had from CCV and my brother Paul. The detective did request to talk to Paul and did. She interviewed Paul and reviewed my blog. After a period of time passed, I was notified by my attorney that the Prosecutor declined to bring the case after the investigation. My attorney let them know that “truth is a defense” in the Idaho criminal libel statute and it is.

    Bob has also used the court option to through his civil defamation lawsuit to try and silence me. He has never missed an opportunity to try and beat me down…though he will never ever succeed and he will never silence me and he’ll never beat me down again. That I can guarantee you.

  159. I have persistently and carefully and methodically continued to try and get justice and accountability in these matters. I have patiently spent years and countless hours doing whatever I can through our System to get justice. I have not cracked, despite threats, being called “crazy”, “psycho” a liar, a “hate campaigner” a “cyberbully”, being hacked, having letters sent out to the city council members of which I was the city’s Economic Development Committee President and VP of the Chamber of Commerce, etc etc and now sued.

    I have still not given up, I have operated within the laws of the land. I have simply refused to quit. I have simply not accepted defeat in these matters (and never will) because I know the truth and I know it is a serious injustice. I keep believing that we will get justice in these matters and slowly but surely we are getting some justice and some very necessary (and righteous) accountability is being brought to bear.

    I’ve been called a “bulldog for justice” in these matters…and I much prefer that label to “psychopath” and “cyberbully” :-)

    Juan, if you are truly an experienced investigator, I welcome your scrutiny and input. I could send you a ton of information and testimonies and documents etc. I think if you would even just review the current court case and see all the stuff submitted into evidence and see BG’s defense, an experienced guy like you could make a pretty conclusive decision on what’s really going on with BG.

  160. How can any of you reading these accounts from Alex deny him the chance to have a fair hearing on the basis of the facts. It is very obvious to me that those who are being accused have very little way to defend themselves due to a mountain of testimony they will not be able to refute. It is my opinion that if those many others who have suffered in tangible ways directly by Bob Grenier believed that they would be protected from further harm, then scores of others would step forward to give several new accounts of mistreatment. How many ministers of God do you know that has caused hundreds of people to cower in fear? Cowering in fear is exactly what many are doing. Let that settle in your mind.

  161. I thought a lot about what Juan had to say in his original comment and his follow-up responses. It spun out into the following (rather lengthy) essay. As it tries to put this lawsuit into a larger context, I hope you’ll indulge me for the length, as I think it’s a useful perspective.

    On the subject of caution and objectivity about court cases, I can agree to a certain extent with what he is saying. I cannot claim to be unbiased, but I do attempt to be cautious about what is fact and what is opinion, what is allegation, what is provable, what is the difference between “beyond reasonable doubt” for CRIMINAL cases and “the preponderance of evidence” for CIVIL cases. Having followed the 2012 defamation lawsuit of Beaverton Grace Bible Church v. Smith (BGBC for short), I am acutely aware of these differences from reading over 100 pages of court documents — complaints, motions, declarations, responses.

    I try not to jump to conclusions, but, as a research writer, coming to conclusions is part of how I am wired. I absorb information, process it like a puzzle, and see what comes together. On this particular case, I’ve been reading details on half a dozen different blogs, off and on for months now. I followed the BGBC case practically from day #1, starting with Julie Anne Smith’s blog in early March of 2012 … shortly after she received notice of the lawsuit. These days, far more information is accessible online for those willing and wanting to search for it …

    Since I am a futurist with training in cultural pattern recognition, I also have to wonder if this online accessibility to data has changed the playing field on civil suits has shifted in the past few years, and perhaps it hasn’t been noticed yet for what it is. “Objectivity” and privacy in court cases has become “compositing” and public in the digital era. As I see it, lawsuits like BGBC, and Bob and Gayle Grenier v. Tim Taylor and Alex Grenier (CCV — Calvary Chapel Visalia — for short, as this is how the case is often referred to elsewhere online) are now being tried in two courts simultaneously: the civil courtroom and the online court of public opinion. The changing digital landscape may make it more likely that future lawsuits like this may lose in both “courts.”

    Here’s what I mean and how it relates to the BGBC and CCV cases.

    First, the plaintiffs (which in both cases included pastors) are public figures. Both pastors have official church websites, plus a combination of one or more personal blogs and/or sermon download sites. Privacy is no longer easily obtained after there has been an online presence and track record established.

    Second, when the plaintiffs file a defamation suit requesting large or open-ended damages, that creates a magnet for public interest. With BGBC, they wanted $500,000 for damages to reputation. With CCV, the plaintiffs asked for an award “of exemplary and punitive damages.” Aren’t punitive damages like this designed to be warning — to teach a lesson to the public that people should not slander or libel others? Well, that invitation to a public lesson on ethics is also a magnet for public attention and opinion. The “Streisand Effect” kicks in; if the intent ever was to conduct the suit behind relatively closed doors of the court, the profiles of the complaints and the hoped-for awards seem to have the opposite effect automatically these days.

    Third, when the context involves alleged spiritual abuse that has gone on for a considerable period of time, there are many people who can attest to specific details. In these two cases of BGBC and CCV, many people have come forward with personal accounts. If someone is reading widely and can discern patterns, it turns out like a sort of “human MRI” of the situation. A three-dimensional impression of the overall situation gets composited through the compiling of different angles on the same subject. These individuals may or may not give sworn verbal testimony or sworn written declarations; their accounts may only appear online. But, the more angles of perception added to this “corporate online CAT Scan,” the stronger the composited image of the plaintiff/defendant relationship seems to become.

    That is why the forthcoming Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) class action lawsuit could play out vastly different in the civil courtroom than it might have even six or seven years ago. There were decades of silenced witnesses who tried to be heard at SGM as an entity and by about a dozen individual current and former leaders — but were refused. Now, online, they have “their day in court” and the profile of information online is astoundingly huge. It seems the survivor blogs are making a difference. They are archiving details for developing comprehensive timelines, testimonies that can be clues to cross-examination, virtual spaces for moving from analysis to interpretation of what happened.

    So, all this together is why I think the playing field is no longer the same for these kinds of lawsuits — and never again will be. Any future defamation lawsuits that involve alleged church- and/or spiritual-abuse related contexts like BGBC and CCV must realize that their cases WILL be co-tried simultaneously by a judge (or jury, if an anti-SLAPP motion is not available or if it fails) AND by the public.

    As a Christian writer, this new reality doesn’t change my perception of responsible authorship. As a “citizen journalist” blogger, I continue to seek to research and write carefully. As a survivor of spiritual abuse myself, I also understand and support the informed bias to “believe the victim” first of all, and to stand against further victimization by perpetrators, their active supporters, and their passive enablers. The irony is, authoritarian church systems where the default is to silence the victims have contributed to the very system of online “spiritual abuse survivor blogs” like this one that turn the spotlight on those same systems and the abusive leaders who run them. An era of assumed objectivity and/or privacy is over; an era of online scrutiny is taking over.

  162. Brad said: “As a survivor of spiritual abuse myself, I also understand and support the informed bias to “believe the victim” first of all, and to stand against further victimization by perpetrators, their active supporters, and their passive enablers. The irony is, authoritarian church systems where the default is to silence the victims have contributed to the very system of online “spiritual abuse survivor blogs” like this one that turn the spotlight on those same systems and the abusive leaders who run them.”

    This is what I’ve been mulling over to say to Juan. Your initial comment came like a sledgehammer, and was responded to accordingly. If I misjudged you, I apologize. This blog is written by, and followed by, those who have experienced abuse by the church. I imagine, when clicking to this article from another website, that it did not seem very objective to you. Dee has already stated her objective. For those of us who have experienced an authoritarian, abusive, church system, it is easy to see the repeat patterns and behavior. Yes, we have an opinion. But it is not an opinion based solely on the information given here. I read Alex’s blog, and the Christianity Today article that Dee linked too. Combined with my own experience, I do believe that Alex and Paul are telling the truth. I also firmly believe that his right to freedom of speech should support his ability to share his story.

    It seems that Alex has given you an invitation to review the information he has amassed, and apply your investigative skills. Your gifts could prove helpful in such a situation. But, please, don’t condemn us for acknowledging another’s pain of the abuse they’ve suffered. We are here to do just that.

  163. Alex

    I think this important. You tried the court routs but we blocked.You spoke out on blogs abd get sued.  Bob goes the court route and gets his defenders. Something is whacked here.

  164. Bryan

    I have found that those who have pastors who have come out of the shepherding movement of the 70s, like CJ Mahaney and others, are more fearful of their pastors. I blame that movement for attracting people who had control issues in a big way.

  165. I did quite a lot of reading about the Vineyard movement when I was in college. I never really read the background of CC. Wish I had. I was always part of a congregational church leadership style before CCV. I assumed because they were “so biblical and not doctrinally stiff”, my quote, they would see that that style is supported in scripture. My assumptions were way off, and when I was convinced of that, I shut off my financial support, and left to find a better fellowship of believers. Church History is a fascinating, and often disheartening topic of study. CC is part of the larger picture, and there seems to be much good that has come from the movement. But I do not like the celebritizing of their leaders. It has lead to idolatry in many cases.@ dee:

  166. To clarify. I left CCV because I no longer trusted the senior pastoral leadership. The lack of accountability was one of my biggest concerns. I had many very deep christian relationships there, and that was difficult to leave.(In retrospect, most of my friends have also left CCV…it loses more members out the back door than what comes in the front.)Thankfully, I have had several pastor friends that have remained for years, and none of them are guilty of what I hear on several blogs journaling various abuses.

  167. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Dee … I went to:

    http://www.christianheadlines.com/

    and checked, and the link to this post’s title was at the bottom of the list of “Top Headlines” section (#30 out of 30 on the list). Don’t know how that site runs, and if that particular section scrolls down so that the last disappears as a new one is added to the stack, but it was there at 11:30-ish PM Eastern time …

    Okay, so it’s 8 hours later and the link to this post is no longer on the “Top Headlines” so they must be using a stack method. Good to know. If there are ever synchro-blogs, synchro-Tweets, synchro-de-Mayo, and other kinds of intentional social media campaigns to publicize lawsuits and the like, then there needs to be some kind of news article that is “spikeworthy” on a period basis to keep publicity potentially going …

  168. “sychro-de-mayo” made me laugh out loud and spit coffee :-)

    Juan: One of the things that happened was when I went to the main Elder and Elder’s wife at CCV (the Dowds) in confronting the abuse privately many years ago…was the guilt trip and turning the tables they laid on me: They said they were sorry but that there was a “difference of opinion” and that nothing good could come from this now, it was in the past, I should “leave it to the Lord” and I shouldn’t “harm” the church and that nothing could be done about it now. This made me feel like I was somehow wrong for wanting to deal with the abuse and to stop BG from continuing to mistreat Paul and others in our family.

    Their advice was “go and pray about it”.

    I stayed silent for 4 years. I didn’t go public until my wife found a forum online that was about BG and CCV and spiritual abuses. I read those stories the 4 years on and realized that BG’s abusiveness was still hurting people and that ignoring it and succumbing to the “leave it to the Lord” garbage was enabling more abuse (in different forms) as BG is a trusted public pastor and chaplain in a Position of Trust within two Institutions of Trust that carry a lot of power and influence in our society.

    I felt a deep conviction to speak up and speak out to try and bring some much needed accountability and justice and to warn others and expose the stuff for what it is.

    I went through the process I laid out above and to date the church and govt. have not done anything, though the recent developments about BG stepping down from being a chaplain is a positive development, he should not be in that public position of trust.

  169. @ dee:

    Brad is hilarious! :-) You have a great crew here and at Spiritual Sounding Board. It is a much better fit for me than PhxP. There’s something to that dynamic at PP that is toxic for me. It’s probably too many triggers like the CC pastors that defend the brand all the time and deny what is self-evident.

  170. Alex

    Our hearts go out to you and we do give a hoot. Once I decide on our brand of Heresy Chocolate, I will send you a bag!

  171. @ dee:

    Thanks Dee! You made me cry yesterday, btw, that doesn’t happen often as I try to be a tough guy .You got me! :-) I look forward to that bag of chocolate :-)

  172. dee wrote:

    I have found that those who have pastors who have come out of the shepherding movement of the 70s, like CJ Mahaney and others, are more fearful of their pastors. I blame that movement for attracting people who had control issues in a big way.

    The Shepherding(TM) Movement was a control freak’s wet dream. Shepherds’ boots on Sheep’s faces by Divine Right. Forever. Every Shepherd stamp harder — God Wills It!

  173. Thanks for posting this, Monax. We have a team that has been working hard behind the scenes to help Tim and Alex get media exposure. I hope many will get involved.

  174. Alex, I think the toxicity you experience on PhxP is not only due to the CC pastors who deny what is self-evident, but also the others who coddle them. There’s a deliberate shut down of seeing what is right in front of them, instead of standing up for what is right. Some seem to be tired of the subject of spiritual abuse, but for them to turn on anyone pointing out the very real issues is indicative of one who desires their peace and comfort first and foremost.

    Hi All, I appreciate what you are doing on this blog!

  175. @ Grateful:

    Grateful, I completely agree. I love Michael, he’s a great guy, I love many of the folks over there, Reuben, G, covered, Dread and many others. But, I agree, it is as you say. It is what it is, it is no longer a spiritual abuse type blog, it has changed, which is fine, it’s just taken me time to accept that.

    I think your comment about “tired” is a good description and I don’t see it as a pejorative, just a reality. They have fought many battles and being tired of it is completely understandable.

  176. Julie Anne wrote:

    FYI: Cindy Kunsman wrote an excellent article on this case here: http://t.co/JcJNZwgYxz

    That is a good article. I especially like the T-shirt at the top that reads “Nothing Says Jesus Loves You . . . Like A Lawsuit.” They really are for sale!

  177. @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    Well, that’s a funny story. The guy selling them follows me on Twitter and saw my tweet about what my former pastor recently called me on his Impostor Blog – it was something like Rebel Jezebel (what a nice pastor, huh?) and he created a t-shirt and showed it to me. I sent the link to Alex for a laugh and he asked if he could design one like you saw – – and he did! Funny, huh? And now he gets free advertising! I love it.

  178. Pingback: Standing Up to Spiritual Abusers via Social Media Today #WhoWouldJesusSue UNITED STATES

  179. Pingback: #WhoWouldJesusSue: Media FAQs | Spiritual Sounding Board UNITED STATES

  180. Dee – Everything’s ready on my blog. Feel free to c&p anything and everything you need. I’m headed off to choir and then the Media Blitz.

    TWW friends, please keep Tim and Alex in your prayers (and Paul and other CCV folks). This has been such an emotionally draining time. Lots of nervous energy and sleepless nights going on. There have been 6 people working as a team, coming together to make this media blitz happen. It’s quite amazing. Every single person on the team has personally experienced spiritual abuse. At least half of us have experienced childhood sex or physical abuse. This cause is very personal to us. We want this abuse to stop. Please help spread the word. ~Julie Anne

  181. Pingback: #WhoWouldJesusSue: Media FAQs and Resources » Calvary Chapel Abuse | Calvary Chapel Abuse UNITED STATES

  182. Paul & Alex Grenier,
    My heart is broken to see all you have been through. Having been a father-less boy myself (rejection comes in many forms), then becoming a Father of four boys and now a grand-father I relish the legacy of Godly parenting, never perfect, but humbly submitted and pointing to Jesus.

    Uniquely, living here in Visalia for 28 years, my son being on the same Coach-pitch baseball team as Paul and I having been “impacted” by the leadership “abuse” of Pastor Bob Grenier while I was a visible Community Ministry Leader.

    I pray the light of Jesus Christ prevails… and that is not limited to February 25, 2013 either. – May You know God’s Best Today, Paul Belt

  183. Paul, thank you SO MUCH for sharing and weighing in publicly. I am pretty much fatherless, too and know that you know the issues that come with that. It has given me such a heart for my kids. I love them so much and do the opposite of what I endured.

    God bless you sir, thank you for speaking out.

  184. Paul Belt was the Youth For Christ lead in our Visalia area for 15 years. I remember him, he is a great guy with a great reputation.

  185. Alex

    God can take the awful experiences of our lives and use those experiences to help others. I bet you are the best father in the world. Your children are blessed!

  186. Alex/Paul

    I am so glad to have a chance to get to meet you. You touch my life and give meaning to our blog.

  187. Barry Bowen

    Thank you for these references. I have bookmarked them. I check the Christin Post everyday to keep abreast of the many stories out there. Welcome to TWW. 

  188. @ dee:

    Thanks Dee! It’s the one thing (being a good Dad) that has come easy to me :-) My wife thinks I’m a little too gracious and loving LOL, especially when my Son is being really naughty ;-)

  189. The Bible admonishes us to examine a situation with circumspection. This means to circle around it and look at it from every different angle or viewpoint.

    Even though, my family served at CCV for 21 years, I have never blogged about this case before today. While praying for wisdom, I looked at a photo of the Grenier grandchildren on Facebook. Presently, there are 3 out of 4 sons speaking up and out. Soon there will be 3 out of 4 grandchildren, who will also find their voice in this matter. I wondered what their opinion of this will be, in a few short years. In my heart, they too, have been the voiceless, unsung, poster children of this heartbreaking ordeal. This is something that I haven’t been able to ignore, since learning about an event that occurred at CCV, wherein the ushers escorted the Grenier Grandchildren off church property (in the name of serving Jesus and to protect the Pastor from scrutiny).

    In fact, the Assistant Pastor and ushers did the very same thing to my own dear children, (all students of CCBC), for fear they may ask some Biblical questions about the above incident. To this day, it is the single most abusive thing that has ever happened to them. By God’s grace, we were able to turn the other cheek and forgive them. They were adults. It hurt, but they had the support of Scripture to guide them through it. Alex’s kiddos experienced the same confusing treatment through the eyes of children. Not just any children, mind you, the GRANDCHILDREN of CCV’s Senior pastor, a man they called Grandpa.

    For the sake of extreme hyperbolic, hypothetical argument…..even if both Alex and brother(s) were psychopathic, cyberbullying, pathological liars of the worst kind, worthy of a lawsuit and severe punishment….just how in God’s Name does anyone (let alone leaders in a church) ever, under any circumstances, shun their innocent Grandbabies!! If they really believed what they tell others about their own son(s), one would have to logically reason, that God’s love, would compel them to reach out to their precious Grandchildren with more Christ-like compassion than ever. They should be making zealous attempts to warmly welcome them, for the sake of sowing seeds of the Gospel of Grace in their hearts.

    Jesus would NOT hinder the little children. Period. According to the Bible, this is an airtight principal. No loopholes that I can find. Any Christian ought to pay special care to the tender souls of the undeniably innocent Grenier family members. Any Pastor who would rather preach the Good News to the public, yet privately treat his own Grandchildren with cruel (unnatural) neglect, needs to step out of ministry, due to clear Scriptural disqualification. In my opinion, suing a son is to harm and mismanage the youngest members of one’s own family…the GRANDCHILDREN.

    I believe, suing Alex is to Spiritually abuse the next generation. How will they answer to God for that? Why don’t any of the elders consider what’s right under their noses…the GRANDCHILDREN? Can’t the Pastors of Visalia discern that? How can a church even begin to advertise having a fruitful Children’s Ministry, while victimizing the Grandchildren of its Senior Pastor? Isn’t that a valid question that begs an answer? You don’t have to be Solomon to figure it out.

    What will the “leaders of sheep” say when the three silent Grenier lambs (“the least of these”) testify to these events someday? Woe to the “Shepherds” who have known about this mess in the pasture…from the top on down. Everyone called to ministry in the Body, who knows about this hurtful behavior, toward the young Grenier grandchildren, needs to examine this thought soberly. The darkness, of the deeds done unto the GRANDCHILDREN, cries out for the disinfecting light of exposure. Observing this saga from this particular angle, leaves me with no other option, but to shine my light and sign my name to this comment.

  190. Lori Neumann

    Welcome to TWW. Thank you for your heartfelt plea. I am so sorry for the abuse your own kids endured. Your comment is indeed, a wake up call.

  191. Lori Neumann, You are awesome! Thanks for the insightful comment!
    Love your sister-in-law, no longer anonymous.

  192. Lori, that was excellent! As a mother, I made some bad choices that cost my children. It pained me so deeply to even know that I had failed them so. I rushed to apologize, giving them full right to be mad, to take their time to work through their anger, and I had no right to require forgiveness.

    As a child of a parent who failed me, I knew that children (even adult children) really want to see the relationship restored if at all possible. I never got to see it with my mom, because she was so stuck in her guilt, shame, and facade of innocence, that she could not bare to face the reality of what she’d done. The stress was far too great so she stuffed it. Each time it rises uglier and more powerful and she has to medicate and deny in stronger and stronger ways so that now, in her 70’s, she’s a shell of a person.

    I’ve tried to reach out even to offer forgiveness, to offer understanding, to offer mercy, hoping to open the door and relieve her suffering, but she continues to lash out in denial. Then, as if out of habit, she tries to say and do things to cut myself and siblings even more deeply. We now protect our own children from her.

    I didn’t want my kids to have to grow up with this longing and pain in their hearts. With my heart felt apology and actions to back it up, my kids didn’t bat an eye in forgiving me readily, as I long to do for my own mother.

    Alex’s mom could have restoration, understanding, mercy, love, the arms of her children around her, the love and beauty of her grandchildren within reach. She could feel again. She can be forgiven and the slate wiped clean. It really isn’t too late, even if it takes some time and some help for her to be able overcome the hurdles she faces. But the love she could have while doing it would make it all worth the effort.

    Alex’s Mom: Jesus wants you to love and be loved by your children and grandchildren. Now. Come home …

  193. from SSB February 17, 2013 @ 8:18 AM

    Julie Anne writes: “David, I don’t understand what makes someone want to hurt innocent and vulnerable children. It just doesn’t make sense to me.”

    There’s a dimension to this which is demonic. Here’s what Alex Grenier (at the 86 minute mark of an October 29, 2011 interview) had to say:

    “Bob [Grenier] had night terrors. He’d walk around the house naked; he’d look demon possessed; he looked absolutely freaked out. He would also go into this mode when he quote unquote disciplined us, and he would absolutely lose it—his demeanor would change, it was like a demon entered his body; and you’ve got a grown man absolutely berserk—wailing on us. He had this custom made wooden paddle that was about a quarter inch thick, and he would take that thing—he would take pride in it; he had this made just to beat on us. Bob frames it as him just spanking them. Ahh, No. It’s not spanking when you’re a grown man and you take this wooden paddle and you hit the kid as hard as you can in a full rage, you hit them on the lower back, you hit them on the back of your legs, you hit them on the buttocks. You hit them so hard that you leave purple bruises and draw blood. I remember my underwear sticking to my body often from the wounds that he would cause. He’d hit you so hard that you’d naturally react to the pain—you’d reach back to try to protect yourself and you’d get hit in the hands, on the forearms—that was the mild stuff.”

    Alex continues, “But that [you see], that was ‘godly discipline.’ And Bob framed it—you know, he had to ‘keep us in line because he’s a pastor.’ But, Yeah, obeying Bob was like trying to hit a moving target, you just didn’t know what was going to set this guy off.”

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/we-are-the-remnant/2011/10/29/dealing-with-devils–a-conversation-with-alex-grenier

  194. Alex and Paul and other members of the Grenier family:

    I’m from Visalia and I’m putting you on my prayer list. I believe what you’re saying and recognize some of it from my own past experience. And if it’s true, God will not let the situation stand much longer. Wait and see. Unless repentance happens, God will act. But I have a question also. Could this be why I could never stand to hear BG preach?

  195. The Calvary Chapel of Visalia story has been suppressed for well over 30 years. As the momentum of all this increases, you are now seeing the release of a lot of pent up emotions. If they all came forward to share their own stories like Lori N., Tina, etc., you would be hearing from numerous assistant pastors, Elder Board members, former church employees, home fellowship leaders, area ministers, local non-profit leaders, and general church members who hold very significant positions within the local community.

    Much of this has been kept quiet, at least the spiritual abuse, because of sheer acts of mercy and fear. Many simply would not risk their public reputations by highlighting these abnormalities. Now that felony charges are being publicly asserted, it is very difficult for some to remain quiet and risk this person to continue in his unchecked behavior.

    If the above mentioned people would come forward with testimony, circumstantial evidence alone would be so momentous, that it would beg for a thorough investigation. But as you can see, there are many eyewitness accounts, many by women who were systematically oppressed under Grenier's leadership, who are now emboldened to stand tall for the innocent and risk public scorn to awaken people to the fact that a local pastor has been an apparent impostor when the facts are known.

    I haven't heard 5 credible sources outside Grenier's circle of comfort who have consistently come to his defense in the past 3 years.

    On the contrary, there is now a visible distancing that is happening. For good reason, in my opinion. I have read thousands of blog posts over the past three years, and I am stunned at the extent and depth of all this. Many in the past were aware of small pieces of this puzzle. Nothing clear, just a foggy notion that something was out of joint.

    I don't believe anyone except the Grenier boys and a few of their confidants knew the full extent of what was happening in the Grenier home. But those who were deeply involved at CCV, now can look back in hindsight and see the clearer indicators. That is why you see so many risking support of the Grenier brothers because they are the very tip of the iceberg. It starts with the most serious allegations, and descends from there.

  196. anonymous

    Welcome to TWW. Thank you for your heartfelt words. Perhaps Alex’s mother will hear them.

  197. monax

    What happened was despicable and any church who does not look into this has given up it’s God card.

    Sudden wakening at night, with confusion and then violence, is sometimes seen in substance abuse.  It can also point to underlying serious mental conditions. Does any one know if he has been seen by professionals on this matter? 

  198. Bryan

    Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel are unfortunately showing their ineffectiveness in this situation. They should be embarrassed by this lawsuit and they shoudl seek to provide Bob counsel.  The Calvary Chapel system is coming off an a weak and ineffective organization. It is rather sad. All of them could have stopped this from occurring.

    They claim that they use the Moses model of leadership? Good night! Moses was not a wimp and would not have allowed this to go on. Unless they do something, I will forever speak of what I perceive to be their utter failure as leaders.

  199. Bob has a long-time friend from his Shiloh (CC Commune) days who told me recently that he observed the “night terrors” as well, along with many other things that concerned him, including how stern he was with us. There are underlying issues. There was a drug issue according to BG’s own words in his gory testimony, he was an illicit drug user, drug dealer, drug smuggler. Pastor Gene Pensiero of CC Hanford confirmed a prescription drug problem to me years ago and witnessed BG “stoned on pills” on mission’s trips and disclosed a “confession” to pill addiction by BG.

    The warning signs have all been there. BG’s confession to his Board in the late 1980’s of “punching” my brother Geoff in the face. The known issues with BG’s “night terrors” by other friends and pastors, BG’s known prior drug problem and then post-ministry drug problem. BG’s “temper problem” which he shared from the pulpit and to other pastors privately (he framed his ongoing abusiveness as a “temper problem” leaving out, often, the gory details of what that meant).

    The Warning Signs were all there.

    It is alarming to me that no one connected the dots sooner and it is alarming to me at how difficult it has been to get justice and accountability in these matters. It’s as if the Leadership in CC both local and national just doesn’t care, unless BG went Calvinist or Emergent or said he was homosexual.

  200. Lori, what you laid out was incredible. I never looked at it from that perspective before…and like you said, even if one of BG’s Kool Aid drinkers thinks I’m the Anti-Christ himself…it doesn’t excuse how they treat their Grandkids, the least of these, who are innocent.

    They reframe my wife’s attempts to introduce our grandson to his grandma as some sort of terrorist act, when in fact she hoped my mom would soften and our kids asked to see her so they could tell her they love her etc.

  201. I still show my kids pictures of their ‘Grandma Gayle” and the kids pray for her and love her. My daughter doesn’t remember her, she was too young after my mom quit visiting her.

    My son has never met her. I begged my mom to come to the ER N.I.C.U. and see him when he was born premature and we thought we’d lose him. She ignored my emotional pleas to come to the hospital.

    There is something deeply evil and demonic in the BG home. I saw it, felt it, it’s there.

  202. Alex, one thing I know is that if parents treat their adult kids like crap with no remorse, they won’t treat their grandchildren any differently. Their hearts are cold and having grandchildren won’t change that.

  203. To be fair to my atheist friends and/or Christian Realist friends, I am open that it’s not “demonic” but rather an underlying mental/physiological manifestation due to the illicit drug use, prescription drug use and other trauma BG experienced in Nam and in his early childhood development. I dunno which it is, but I do know what i experienced first-hand and what I saw first-hand.

  204. To Dee, Julie Ann, and all other concerned bloggers,

    Here is a small historical timeline for you to add to the record:

    Today, Bob Grenier is having an international spotlight pointed toward his life for alleged child physical and sexual abuse. It didn’t start this way.

    Nineteen years ago, in early 1994, a senior CCV elder board member and a retired banker, became aware of some anomalies on the CCV credit card account. They were relatively small purchases by Bob Grenier, justified as expenses for church business meetings with one of his other senior elder board members. There were several expenses listed. The concerned senior elder, reviewed the account and noticed that the wives of the pastor and elder were included in these meetings, and their meals were being expenced to the church as well. He also saw some other billings that concerned him when he noticed the pastor and his wife took a ministry trip to Europe and expenced the wife’s costs as well. These were small issues, relative to today but it was at least the appearance of impropriety that a pastor must avoid. So the concerned elder, followed the clear instructions from Jesus in Matthew 18, and went privately to Bob Grenier to discuss these issues with him. Because the confrontation was not well taken by BG, the elder still felt it was a serious matter, and proceeded to the next step in Matthew 18, and sought a few trusted third party church members to share the matter with, hoping they would join him in seeking a resolution to this. Much careful investigation was done to establish fact from fiction, according to scriptural guidance, and then other issues surfaced. What you see happening today, minus all the child and sex abuse claims, are the grown weeds that bloomed after seeds were sown back in the 1990’s. Neglected sin grows. BG was clearly wrong and in sin when he was using the church funds in inappropriate ways. The senior elder who had a wise and sensitive conscience, attempted to help the beloved pastor live above reproach. Isn’t that a biblical concept? That concept should be added to the CC Distinctives that Chuck Smith cherishes. The elder is now in his 90″s, graciously fading into the awaiting arms of his Savior. He turned the cheek, and went on with his life, even though he was greatly maligned for taking a stand in his day. Anyone who stands against ingrained sinful behavior will suffer to some extent. It now seems that this is the time for all things to be revealed. It will be a very sad day for the Church but no worst than some of the most despicable histories we read from the past. Sin is the enemy, initiated by the great Enemy. It has been dealt with once and for all on the Cross. We who are members of the Kingdom of God, must work out our salvation by battling against the twisted ways of this sin-struck world. With prayer, humility, and love. Truth and love must be our guide, and never to tolerate sin in our own lives, let alone in the lives of our leaders.

  205. Bryan

    I am becoming more and more aware that expense accounts are a way to see what is really going on in churches. For example, SGM Survivors has documented a reported instance of conflict with CJ Mahaney. He expected his teen son’s travel expenses to be reimbursed when he traveled with his dad. If one looks at the reported travel expenses for SGM as documented on SGM Survivors, it is apparent that a lot of money is being spent on travel, even when the income to the church appears to be declining.

    A couple of years back, it was revealed that Franklin Graham received two salaries, one from BGEA and th other from World Vision. The combined income was @ $1.2 million. He was embarrassed and now makes “only” @$600,000 after dropping one of the salaries. I contacted the http://www.ecfa.org which certified both organizations. I was surprised to learn that thye make no judgments on salary levels but on the public accountability for those salary levels.

    TWW  recommends that anyone who gives money to a church ask for a full accounting, including pastors’ salaries, benefits, travel reimbursement, intellectual property, etc. For example, Ed Young Jr, develops his sermons for his church but he then gets to market them and make money on them as well. If your church does not respond well to your questions, it is time to stop donating. Period. Something is up if they will not freely share their finances or answers questions with a church member who gives money.

  206. Bryan,
    Thank you for providing this part of the history of CCV. For readers not personally aquainted with CCV and bob, I can attest to the personal integrity and commitment to Jesus Christ in both Bryan and this elder board member. They faithfully attempted to bring a godly resolution to the “sin in the camp” I was on staff for 5 years and have provided to Alex my personal testimony and am praying that this this is the time that God has willed to bring his earthly justice to bear. The financial and spiritual abuse are egregious in themselves, the emotional, physical and sexual abuse of the sons beyond contempt and in dire need of resolve. Thank yo, Alex, Paul and others who are working for the cause of godliness.

  207. Thank you Kris. You were faithful to declare the reality way back then. I just scratched where there was an itch, and found a few maggots under the surface.

  208. To add a bit to my comments above:

    Lori N. shared about a recent disappointment her family experienced at CCV. She also astutely pointed out the problem with a pastor who ignores the well-being of the very young, and the young with the same DNA.

    Let me share briefly something Lori won’t mention due to the pain but it shows the icy coldness of Mr. Grenier’s heart toward his church members. Lori can tell a more complete story but this is a bit of what I know. Her dear husband suffered and died from a serious disease. Lori stood by his side through every moment of his suffering with devoted love and care. I understand that Mr. Grenier, her pastor for about 21 years, never came to pray and comfort her husband through his ordeal. Her husband was a very deeply active member, and the senior pastor had no interest or time to come along side him pastorally to give any comfort. In fact, Mr. Grenier has made very few pastoral visits in his tenure at CCV. He just ‘teaches the Word”. Bunk! No true pastor neglects to care for his flock by seeking them out in their darkest of days. He is no pastor who only speaks the Word and does not live it out.

  209. Bryan

    Fascinating. i had an elder contact me from one of the mega Cavinista churches. i had critiqued their pastor for being a talking head, not a pastor. I said they should not use the word “pastor” to refer to him. Said elder said “But we don’t want him to be a pastor. We’ll take care of it. we want him to influence the world.yeah right-that’s exactly what Jesus did, didn’t He?

  210. Kris/Bryan/ Bob Grenier/ Chuck Smith

    I believe that there is some movement on this issue. If I were Bob, I would drop the lawsuit immediately. He is going to look really bad as the national news start picking this up. I have it on good authority that major new services are begnning to ask for interviews. Claims of Incest in the pulpit is not usually well received. 

    As for Bob’s wife, this is doubly embarrassing. How a mother could ignore her sons is beyond me but I would imagine that there is tremendous pressure behind the scenes.

    Bob Grenier: Give it up! You will give yourself and Calvary Chapel a black eye. Do not sue you own son!!!!

    Chuck Smith: Intervene. This will look really, really bad for CC. SGM is getting pummeled in the press. CC will be next. Credibility will be called into question. Is this to be the end of a life’s work? Look at Joe Paterno.

  211. @Dee, you are absolutely right! Bryan and Kris’s posts are not only true but are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Bob Grenier.

    If you had in hand the testimonies of all who have been personally spiritually, emotionally, psychologically and/or verbally abused by Bob. Then add on the financial fraud and abuse it would be a very large shocking novel!

    Bob, REPENT NOW! Step down as pastor of CCV and end this suit against Alex and Tim or beware your entire world will be pulled out from under you and all of your evil misdeeds will be exposed!

    Gayle, it is not too late. Alex told you all you have to do is call and he will take you in and protect you.

  212. dee wrote:

    I have it on good authority that major new services are begnning to ask for interviews.

    I have it on good authority that a major news source has already interviewed. ::::cough, cough:::::
    2 interviews yesterday. Darn cold.

  213. Bryan, Lori, and Kris – Thank you for being bold and sharing your experiences and even using your real names. I’ve been reading CCV stories for a while now and interestingly, the stories stay consistent even told by different parties. I believe you! I am committed to keep telling the CC story. CCV is just a tiny part of the big picture. I can’t believe the head pastor has the first name of Chuck. I seem to be running into a problem with that name connected with the title “pastor.”

  214. dee wrote:

    TWW recommends that anyone who gives money to a church ask for a full accounting, including pastors’ salaries, benefits, travel reimbursement, intellectual property, etc.

    Amen to that! This must be a fundamental rule, no exceptions allowed, for anyone choosing a church to attend. My wife is a Methodist minister and every year there is a meeting of the entire congregation to approve her salary and benefits – every dollar is laid out for all to see. It’s a bit uncomfortable being in that position but we wouldn’t have it any other way. If you’re going to ask people to donate their hard-earned money to your church, you better be willing to tell them exactly where it is going. Those churches that aren’t financially transparent always have something they want to hide from the congregation – it’s not necessarily that they want to hide illegal activity, they just don’t want to answer any questions about how much of the congregation’s money is going into their pocket as opposed to being spent on church activities.

  215. Good point Jeff.I think we would do well in our times to give a serious reconsideration as to how a church is to be run. What I mean is that to be a healthy church, it must be small enough for everyone to know each other, and it does need sound leadership. A healthy church doesn’t necessarily need a paid pastor. The pastor should gain at least 50% of his income from outside the church so he remains connected to the real world that his congregation lives in each day. The church can subsidize his income but there must be full disclosure of every penny used for administrative costs in the church. If the church can limit administrative costs to below 10% of budget, then they would be very frugal and efficient in how they intend to grow the Kingdom. Never should paid staff be looking for ways to increase their own pay checks. I am disgusted when I hear that many celebrity church and para-church leaders are getting income 3, 6, and 10 times what a public school superintendent gets. That is simply wrong, and we all know it. No one deserves that much money for representing Christ.

  216. I’ve seen Ed’s email response to a person innocently asking about the finances. Ed wrote nicely but made it known that it was unnecessary for anyone to inquire. He then laid it out that the person would have to come to the church in person, at specific middle of the day times (meaning one would have to get off work,) on only certain days of the year with a particular person, if they are available. In other words, it was so restricted that there’s no way very many people could even get one of those meetings, it at all.

    I’ve heard it said by other CC pastors that if someone is asking to see the finances then they are troublemakers. To not trust the pastor with how he chooses to spend the money is tantamount to not trusting God. @ dee:

  217. My very first question to Mr. Grenier when I was considering attending CCV was if I could have a copy of the general budget. He referred me to Greg Dowds, a senior elder. Grenier never followed through, and to this day, I do not know why I didn’t persist in getting a copy. I never would have received one, and I never would have attended there.

    Years later, I did get a copy of the budget. Not from the senior pastor though. It was very revealing, and it dawned on me that no ordinary member like me had ever seen a copy of the budget.That made me very upset.

  218. anonymous wrote:

    I’ve heard it said by other CC pastors that if someone is asking to see the finances then they are troublemakers. To not trust the pastor with how he chooses to spend the money is tantamount to not trusting God

    Nice Racket.

  219. I appreciate this conversation about the need for transparency in finances. I was taught to give at least 10%, even if the NT doesn’t teach tithing. I was taught to give no matter what your financial state is, even if it cuts into your food budget or makes the pastor wealthy. I was taught to trust the pastor in how he spend the money, blindly. This worked because I was young. But I grew up and and I knew better, it just took awhile till I realized it was actually sin for me to continue giving “as unto the Lord” while a pastor had no financial accountability.

    Then I paid attention to 2Corinthians 8 where Paul made a call to generous giving. Paul spoke of the churches in Macedonia, who were poor; yet, they gave with joy, generosity, and not only what they could afford. (8:2-3) Then in vs.11, Paul gives another side to this subject telling the Corinthians to “… give in proportion to what you have.”

    Vs. 12-14 continues … “Whatever you give is acceptable if you give it eagerly. And give according to what you have, not what you don’t have. Of course, I don’t mean you giving should make life easy for others and hard for yourselves. I only mean that there should be some equality. Right now you have plenty and can help those who are in need. Later, they will have plenty and can share with you when you need it. In this way, things will be equal.”

    Seems that while Paul applauded joyous, generous giving, even beyond what one can afford, he also did not want people giving to make someone else’ life easier, while it made theirs harder. Wish this was taught verse by verse in the church, as well.

  220. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    My last CC pastor took $260K just in the year 2011. Interesting that none of the other years were looked into. There was no way to make him pay it back, since the organizational structure leaves all the decision making power in the hands of the Pastor, without any accountability.

    Oh, they feign accountability with the presence of a board, but the pastor stacks it with buddies in the same gig from out of town. He can also fire them if they disagree with him. The boards are simply shams in CC … at least I’ve never seen one that is truly holding a pastor accountable and it’s guaranteed in the structure, written into the by-laws.

    This former CC pastor has moved on and it looks (from his online presence and other info) that he’s planning on starting another church in due time. It really did make him a very rich man. And there is no one who can tell him he can’t. He abided by the Moses Model and didn’t do anything that other CC pastors have done in the past and been reinstated. So between multiple infidelities and gross mismanagement of funds (stealing,) including much he never repented of …. he hasn’t crossed any lines that bother Chuck Smith enough to not reinstate him.

  221. @ Grateful:
    No where does the NT teach that we are to tithe to make a pastor rich. The giving that Paul was writing about was to help the poor, the widows, and the folks in Jerusalem, who were destitute. It was not for a fancy building, executive style offices, private planes, hordes of associates and assistants, fancy music with “high production values”, and surely not to make one preaching wealthy. Of course, Jesus said that their future would be where their heart is and that is surely in a bank vault somewhere on earth (interesting idea of hell, locked in a place with lots of money but no food!)

    It matters not what you give, but why and for what purpose. Supporting mission activities, working with the local food bank or clothes closet, etc., working with children in an after school program or supporting that sort of thing. Those are the kinds of things modern Christians should use their resources to support.

  222. @ 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC:

    Agreed! And in the context of 2Corinthians 8, the Macedonians were giving to support Paul’s missionary journeys. No one got wealthy on those trips, nor were they pleasure cruises.

    In my old CC, we gave to support the pastor’s family eating out all their meals and Starbucks stops. As long as they brought along another person from the church they called it “ministry” and the church account paid the bill (2 to 3 meals per day, 7 days a week!) These lunches were most often to upper end places and included the pastor’s large family. Often, the inner circle of the church went out to eat together, all paid by “giving units” (as the people have been referred to.) And the 2 and 3 times daily trips to Starbucks for Venti whatevers added up to a hefty bill over a year’s time.

    All the while there were some in the congregation like one woman who actually had to survive off food stamps to feed growing teens after her husband (who taught Bible in CC) abandoned them. Along with many others who were affected severely by the economy, these people were still supposed to give and make the pastor rich, while their needs were basically ignored.

  223. In truth, all the “Moses” who run the various CC’s, have no power, and no real authority. They cannot exit without the charity of the members. If the laity decided to boycott giving for 12 months, most CC’s would default on their loans, and the prophets would starve.(Assuming they don’t already have assets hidden away somewhere)

  224. Let me tell you something about CC Senior Pastors and their salaries, at least in the CC’s I’ve been in. The senior pastors have all their needs met while the younger (for the most part) assistant pastors are paid barely above poverty level. The assistants are expected to use their cars and their gas to do church work while the senior pastor gets those things paid for by the church. The senior pastors and their wives get paychecks and live in nice houses. The assistants work long hours and live in ghetto conditions. I know this for a fact! I’ve seen it up close! It literally enrages me and it is NOT right! I agree with Bryan that these pastors should have to work outside the church to supply at least part of their income so they don’t lose touch with the ‘real’ world. They are so arrogant, narcissistic and full of themselves they need to be out in the real world where they aren’t worshipped and are just like everyone else.

  225. “All the while there were some in the congregation like one woman who actually had to survive off of food stamps to feed growing teens after her husband(who taught Bible in CC) abandoned them. Along with many others who were affected severely by the economy, these people were still suppose to give and make the pastor rich, while their needs were basically ignored.”

    These self-entitled “pastors/leaders” don’t have a conscience. They are not even Christians. They just hide behind the name Christian for their own agendas. It’s disgusting!

    “They are so arrogant,narcissistic and full of themselves.”

    Yep… Someone cannot claim to be a Christian and be like this. It’s the complete opposite of Christianity.

  226. Approximately 8 months before we left CCV, we decided to give our offering to a ministry that supports orphans and disabled children, instead of Bob. We put the check in the green bag specifying where we wanted the money to go. The following week, from the pulpit, Bob announced during the offering that our normal offering needs to be given to CCV, not missionaries. I was so BLOWN away because Bob specifically said that HE NEVER knew who gave! We also found out later from a very credible source that CCV only gave this ministry $50 a month. I guess the orphans and disabled only deserves crumbs!

  227. “Your Mom”, that’s standard practice in CC’s. Pastor says from the pulpit that he never sees who gives what. Yet, strangely, he always knows …

  228. Latest press release for the #WhoWouldJesusSue Campaign just posted on Alex Grenier’s Calvary Chapel Abuse blog. It updates us on the launch of an important new resource – – the *Grenier Defamation Lawsuit Archive.* Check out the latest post with the press release, and the Archive home page here:

    http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?page_id=1685

    The bibliography has a good starter list of online links to systems issues in the Calvary Chapel “franchise.”

    And I’m sure Alex and the other defendant, Tim Taylor, would appreciate prayer. The tentative decision on the anti-SLAPP motion will be posted on Monday, March 4, and there will be a court hearing on Tuesday, March 5.