New Radio Series, SGM Detox, Dedicated to Those Impacted by SGM

NEWS RELEASE FROM: THE RENAISSANCE NETWORK

RE: PILOT BROADCAST

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Philco radio-Public domain
 

Beginning Saturday, February 16, 2013, The Renaissance Network will present a special show to help countless believers who have been negatively affected by a church planting ministry known as Sovereign Grace Ministries.

SGM Detox will address the unhealthy religious contagions that have damaged believers, and provide biblical instruction and counsel to help Christ followers move beyond their spiritual bondage and offenses… and into a healthy expression of life in Jesus.   We will also troubleshoot various organizations and entities that have experienced crisis because of failures in leadership as well as doctrines and practices that left people devastated.

Each show will cover specific areas of concern, and time will also be provided for listeners to call  in to join the dialogue.

SGM Detox will also feature resources that will be very helpful for a person who has left SGM or a similar organization. 

SGM Detox will be hosted by Vince Coakley, a veteran broadcaster who spent 15 years in an SGM Church.  Vince will share his journey of ongoing transformation, and the people and resources that have ministered to him and others he currently walks with.

Joining Vince is Dr. Steve Crosby. Dr. Crosby brings his prophetic insight, along with 40 years of church experience. You can access Dr. Crosby's website at this link:

Addressing people who were affected by SGM and similar churches and ministries, Coakley offers this exhortation: "I hope you join us on an exciting journey into freedom, wholeness, and mutuality in the Body of Christ. I especially want to encourage those of you who are afraid to have hope again.  You will find great reason for hope in this special broadcast."

SGM Detox premieres Saturday February 16th at 11:00am.

You can listen:

  • live at www.vincecoakley.com
  • on your Android phone with the "Vince Coakley" app
  • on your non-Android phone by calling 805 243 1335

THE RENAISSANCE NETWORK: POLITICAL FREEDOM/ECONOMIC FREEDOM/SPIRITUAL FREEDOM

Comments

New Radio Series, SGM Detox, Dedicated to Those Impacted by SGM — 357 Comments

  1. This is great – I just heard about it this morning. I would like to add that I uncovered the abuse at my church by reading the stories at SGMSurvivors several years ago. It was still a new blog then. I kept thinking they were talking about my church because the stories were so true. This is what we find in spiritual abuse, the patterns are very similar from church to church.

    I think MANY will benefit from listening. Knowing the SGM culture because it was so much like mine, let me add that the following kinds of churches would also notice similarities: family-integrated churches, people or churches with a pro-homeschooling mindset, churches that endorse courtship, purity, modesty teachings, churches with strong complementarian or patriarchal teachings, strong pro-life stance, pro-family and even quiver-full (no birth control) or at least making an emphasis to allow God’s “blessing” of children, father as “priest” of the home, churches with a strong hierarchal structure, churches which implement church discipline process, strong emphasis on church membership, church which emphasizes they know better than other churches, churches with no youth group, institute “no-talk” rule saying any negative talk is “gossip”, if you ask questions to authority, you will be labeled a troublemaker, etc.

  2. According to SGM Louisville’s website (not FB) John Piper is guest preaching this Sunday, February 17

  3. PhillyinDC

    I was over there looking for that earlier and could not find it. Could you tell me where to look because I will tweet this and alert some other sites?

  4. Deb

    Do you see where he is preaching at SGM Louisville? I want to tweet it and let some people know about this.

  5. Philly

    I saw it. One has to let the header scroll through and i am an impatient sort. This is despicable. Shame, shame, shame on John Piper. Tweet sent.

  6. Eagle

    I used to say I like Desiring God. No more. This is what it has come to. Maybe I should use the Andy Davis approach-is he wicked and unregenerate? isn’t that what cool Calvinistas say ?

  7. Deb

    He is speaking. Go back to the site. The header actually scrolls through about 4 things. You have to wait. It does come up. He is speaking at SGM Louisville and that is the despicable. 

  8. I wonder if Piper might remove his public speaking schedule the way someone from SGM removed CJ’s after both of our blogs posted it.

    We’re going to have to rely on sleuth readers to inform us so we can blast out the information.

    Dee and Deb, I think you should go, bring your popcorn, and certainly your smartphone to tweet quotable quotes.

  9. Julie Anne

     A smart reader took a screem shot and sent it to me.  This is one sermon I will listen to. 

  10. If someone has time, check to see if Piper is scheduled for any SBTS appearances or speaking gigs. Also, Jerry Bridges is speaking there on March 10. Anyone know him? Mr Apologist for Reformed doctrine.

    These guys have NO shame or conscience. I sometimes wonder if deep down they really hate victims or if it is just they are so blinded by celebrity and protecting their own turf they have no conscience. The power and authority is more important to them than little children. Sick men.

  11. Anon1

    Unless Piper reads Mahaney the riot on Sunday, he will lose all semblance of spiritual authority.Question-Is he one of the elect? That will get the juices flowing…

  12. On the home page, in the wide block, if you wait long enough there is an arrow on the right side that will take you to where that is. You can also click on the black buttons at the bottom of that block and depending on the cycle, it will take you to the Piper part.

  13. I was hoping Piper was retiring for good . . . he’s just changed jobs to the speaking circuit.

  14. “If someone has time, check to see if Piper is scheduled for any SBTS appearances or speaking gigs”

    Well, DUH. Read the comments, eh?

  15. anonymous wrote:

    How do you take a screen shot?

    Windows: there’s a print screen button on your keyboard it saves it to your clipboard then you save it to a program

    Mac: Apple Key + Shift + 3 Saves a copy on your desktop

  16. If you are a Mac user and want to take a screen shot:

    Shift + Command +4

    You will then see a little symbol. Place that symbol to the top left of what you want to copy, drag it to the right and down and you should hear a sound like a camera taking a picture (when you let go of the mouse, the picture is taken, so be sure to hold the mouse down the whole time while setting the parameters). The screen shot is then posted to the desktop. I’ll just come clean and fess up that my desktop is in a constant state of disarray.

  17. Oh, I just noticed Philly’s comment. Philly’s way is for a whole screen shot. The way I described can define parameters (which is helpful if you have a messy desktop).

  18. Julie Anne

     I do not think it is money-making for Piper. Piper is an idealogue and so his life is spent pushing his ideas which some elevate to the 5th Gospel. He knows his appearance will have all the boyz from SBTS running over to the SGML church. They will take photos and pretend it’s just another “normal” Sunday. I am so mad at Piper I could spit. If this is not evidence of his commitment to his precious doctrine over the care of the hurting, I do not know what is. 

    In the end, just like Paterno, his life will be defined by his willingness to overlook the well-being of people while being hell-bent on pushing his program which includes an aversion for muscular women. Paterno, at least, admired athleticism.

  19. John Piper preaching at C.J.’s “church”? You mean, hotel room? How will there be room for the scores of people/students who will no doubt want/be highly encouraged to come? Oh no–I just thought of something. I hope the pair of them won’t take the “stage” together in a dual preaching gig.

    In that little space it could be dangerous. Best have the paramedics on hand.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOAfGKcLJUY

  20. Piper speaking at CJ’s church doesn’t surprise me. It’s all about them. This is who these people are.

  21. Piper and Jerry Bridges speaking at CJ’s NEW church plant is an unspoken message to the Reformed followers showing support of Mahaney and indirectly helping Mohler who is in a bit of an awkward place right now.

    Remember, Piper LOVED Mark Driscoll’s theology on video for years (including all the vulgarity and porno divinations) and then a few months ago, that video disappeared. That, my friends, is how it works.

  22. Dee, I agree with your reading of Piper. I also think this is totally consistent with his theology. In his theology individual suffering is trivialised — his God expects women to endure abuse, people to die in horrific disasters because of someone else’s sin, and that many will be damned for the greater glory of God. Men become like what they worship, or they worship a deity made in their own image — take your pick. The “Glory of God” that Piper preaches and teaches is like a mighty steamroller crushing all who find themselves in its way. Of course he is going to support a fellow preacher of such doctrines against those who make complaints.

    I am glad that the God I know is utterly different

  23. Anon 1: “Remember, Piper LOVED Mark Driscoll’s theology on video for years (including all the vulgarity and porno divinations) and then a few months ago, that video disappeared.”

    It reappears here:
    http://youtu.be/wYVCVx5QyFQ

  24. Anon

    Thank you for reposting that video link. I do believe these guys think the sheep are stupid. They should just say “I was wrong/” However, they would need pills in order to spit those words out of their mouths.

  25. @ Lynne T:

    Lynne T,

    I respectfully submit that what you have written is a misrepresentation of things that John Piper has taught. I offer these quotes:

    ““Therefore, an abusive husband is breaking God’s law. He is disobeying Christ. He is not to be indulged but disciplined by the church. The wife is not insubordinate to ask the church for help. A Christian woman should not feel that the only help available to her is the police. That would be a biblical failure of her church.”

    “..the death of Christ in supreme suffering is the highest, clearest, surest display of the glory of the grace of God. If that is true, then a stunning truth is revealed, namely, suffering is an essential part of the created universe in which the greatness of the glory of the grace of God can be most fully revealed. Suffering is an essential part of the tapestry of the universe so that the weaving of grace can be seen for what it really is.

    Or to put it most simply and starkly: the ultimate reason that suffering exists in the universe is so that Christ might display the greatness of the glory of the grace of God by suffering in himself to overcome our suffering. The suffering of the utterly innocent and infinitely holy Son of God in the place of utterly undeserving sinners to bring us to everlasting joy is the greatest display of the glory of God’s grace that ever was, or ever could be.

    In conceiving a universe in which to display the glory of his grace, God did not choose plan b. This was the moment—Good Friday—for which everything in the universe was planned. There could be no greater display of the glory of the grace of God than what happened at Calvary. Everything leading to it and everything flowing from it is explained by it, including all the suffering in the world.”

  26. Lynne T

    Last night I received a phone call. I cannot go into the details due to a promise of confidentiality. However, there are some folks in conservative theological circles who are beginning to question the circus surrounding Mahaney, Piper and others. It gives me some hope to know that this stuff is not bouncing off Internet walls and going nowhere.

    Perhaps you have hit the nail on the head. Maybe  Piper likes Mahaney because Mahaney, Tomczak and the SGM crowd, through their utter inadequacies and gross puffery,  allowed pain and suffering to continue. It gives Piper a lot to talk about. Child abuse coverup? God is punishing the parents perhaps? Spanking a pantiless woman? God is punishing her. Do the leaders of these groups become the avengers of sin for the Lord?

    Shame on Piper.

  27. SGmovercomer from your link:

    SGM Chronicles: A Message to the Local Franchise

    “Resist this call to your own harm. God will not be mocked. Since you’re not inclined to trust complete “outsiders,” I would humbly suggest asking Joshua Harris to help you learn how to repent. A time of refreshing is on the other side of door on which Jesus is knocking. Though He will not force Himself on you, He will not allow His people to remain in slavery forever”

    What? Ask Joshua Harris to help you learn to repent? It is stuff like this that blows my mind. This is more elevation of man that SGM is known for. The HOLY SPIRIT is the one you learn repentance from.

    Josh Harris was part of the problem. He was raised in this bubble of patriarchal following man groupthink. If you notice, ee did not ‘repent’ as you like to call it until it became safe to do so as in CJ stepping down and he had the backing of most of CLC. I fear many do not see the same groupthink and elevation of man that caused all this in PDI/SGM. Many are going down the same road again following man. If anything, Joshua Harris needs to get out of ministry just as CJ and all the others need to do.

  28. “Dee, I agree with your reading of Piper. I also think this is totally consistent with his theology. In his theology individual suffering is trivialised — his God expects women to endure abuse, people to die in horrific disasters because of someone else’s sin, and that many will be damned for the greater glory of God. Men become like what they worship, or they worship a deity made in their own image — take your pick. The “Glory of God” that Piper preaches and teaches is like a mighty steamroller crushing all who find themselves in its way. Of course he is going to support a fellow preacher of such doctrines against those who make complaints.”

    Lynne, You are right on target! So, because Mahaney supports the Reformed positions, he is more important than the victims. (Doctrine over people)

    In Piper’s determinist god world, the victims are just as bad of sinners as the perps and God controls every event……. so what is our problem?

    I don’t think people can see past the stage persona and flowery speech of Piper and see what he really believes. Does anyone not remember how long that ‘
    women are to take abuse for a season’ video teaching was up….YEARS….before the outcry became so great he had to put up ‘an explanation’ for it. (Which was no explanation at all, really)

  29. “Or to put it most simply and starkly: the ultimate reason that suffering exists in the universe is so that Christ might display the greatness of the glory of the grace of God by suffering in himself to overcome our suffering.”

    HOGWASH! A total twisting of truth with a ton of error mixed in as usual. Suffering exists because of SIN and because Satan is still roaming this earth. Suffering comes from both the hand of humans and Satan.

    Piper followers do not like to hear this because you have been convinced by Piper and others it makes God look like a sappy grandfather in the sky who cannot control events and has no power. The definition of God’s Sovereignty is on trial here. And your definition played out makes Yaweh into a narcissistic monster.

    God is Sovereign enough to have given humans volition. And God has not bound Satan. We are to fight evil now with truth, mercy love, justice, etc. We are to BE the Kingdom of God ON EARTH as believers as one day we will be in perfection on the new earth.

    Fight your cancer! Fight for Justice for victims! Help people be protected from tornados and bridge collapses! Do NOT tell victims they are sinners just like the perps. That is monsterous and evil. Do NOT tell them their suffering glorifies Christ’s suffering for us. That is a lie

    Jesus paid a HUGE price for us. Let us obey His commands by doing all we are empowered to do to BE the kingdom NOW. We will never stop suffering on this earth but we are to try! That shows the LOVE of Christ.

    “Suffering exists so Christ can be glorified”. Think about that. That is what Piper is really teaching when you strip away all the flowery speech, arm gestures, etc. What a monsterous narcissistic determinist god Piper preaches.

    Makes my skin crawl.

  30. @ Anon 1:

    You said: “And God has not bound Satan”. My understanding of Job chapters 1 and 2 is that God definitely put limits on Satan. No?

  31. Anon 1 wrote:

    What a monsterous narcissistic determinist god Piper preaches.

    What part of taking on human flesh, nerve endings and all, to become the ultimate and final sacrifice for our sin is monstrous and narcissistic?

  32. @ Anon 1:

    Agree with you 100% here, Anon 1.

    Sad- how does a husband beating his wife glorify God?

    There are numerous problems with Piper’s “clarification” about submitting in abuse situations, the most obvious is he never recants telling a wife to endure non-physical abuse for a season and to endure being smacked for a night.

  33. “Or to put it most simply and starkly: the ultimate reason that suffering exists in the universe is so that Christ might display the greatness of the glory of the grace of God by suffering in himself to overcome our suffering.”

    So a wife suffering being beaten glorifies God, because as you said, that is why suffering exists.

    Unless I am misunderstanding you- I’m not trying to trap in you words or anything.

  34. @ Jeff S:

    You know, that is my fault. I did not delineate the quotes as being from different writings. The first paragraph pertains to wife abuse, the other paragraphs pertain to suffering in general and the sovereignty of God. Sorry Jeff! 🙂

  35. @ Sad:

    OK, I understand that; however, let me be clear- spouse abuse still falls in the category of “suffering in general”.

    This is a very personal topic for me because I divorced my wife in order to protect myself. Yes, I fled “suffering” in my marriage against the teaching of my church (and John Piper). I was told that it was my calling to suffer.

    So this is a very real issue for me. I fail to see how my suffering, not for the Gospel, not for the name of Christ to be proclaimed, but for HER NEED to hurt me to be satisfied, is glorifying to God. Because that’s what it comes down to- when you tell someone to suffer in an abusive marriage, you are telling them that their suffering glorifies God.

    And I understand that Piper believes that separating for a time and disciplining the abuser is enough, but it isn’t. Abusers rarely changed, and separated but not divorced is still bound in a relationship of abuse and the victim is not protected.

    In the end, it still comes down to the question of “How would my remaining in an abusive marriage have been more glorifying to God than divorcing?” I am not an abstract concept here- I am a real person who has suffered real pain. I am healthy again and doing very will, in life AND in my relationship with the Lord (and BTW, I am Reformed in my doctrine, so I fit within Piper’s “camp” if that matters), and if I had not divorced I have no doubt I would not be where I am today.

  36. Jeff S wrote:

    So this is a very real issue for me. I fail to see how my suffering, not for the Gospel, not for the name of Christ to be proclaimed, but for HER NEED to hurt me to be satisfied, is glorifying to God. Because that’s what it comes down to- when you tell someone to suffer in an abusive marriage, you are telling them that their suffering glorifies God.

    Jeff – That was a powerful statement regarding “HER NEED to hurt me” and sheds light into a troubling marriage situation I know of. Thank you.

  37. “In conceiving a universe in which to display the glory of his grace, God did not choose plan b. This was the moment—Good Friday—for which everything in the universe was planned. There could be no greater display of the glory of the grace of God than what happened at Calvary. Everything leading to it and everything flowing from it is explained by it, including all the suffering in the world.” Piper

    According to this statement (which is problematic in many ways) all suffering is the ultimate way for God to display the glory of His grace(whatever that is) and all suffering is acceptable to God. So why should anyone anywhere ever try to stop suffering? We should all just submit to suffering? I don’t find that this is what scripture teaches.

    Whenever I try to get to the root of what Piper has really said, I come away from the exercise dismayed, exhausted, and not in agreement with most of what he says.

  38. @ Jeff S:

    I think it is a very precarious place to walk when one attempts to address another believer’s suffering and the “meaning” behind it. So, I’m not going to go there other than to say that I am sorry for what you had to endure.

    Here is my take on what I think Piper is trying to say. First of all, he is a romantic idealist, and I mean that in the best way, not pejoratively. I truly believe when he is preaching to his church, it would boggle his mind to think that there are men sitting there listening to him who would beat their wives. His sermons are hard hitting and convicting and frankly it is hard to imagine being so seared of conscience that one could listen to the words then go home and continue on abusing one’s spouse. Why even attend the service if that is the way one conducts their life?

    So, I think this is where he is coming from…that no serial abuser would be listening to him because they would have left his church ages ago. Therefore, it is my opinion, that his unfortunate word choice in that original Q and A where he mentions “enduring” physical abuse for one night is based on his belief that he is not talking about a serial abuser who probably is not even a believer, but rather a believer who lost their temper in the most vile way ONE TIME, repented and never, EVER again repeated the abuse. I think what he was saying in that case is that it might be better for all involved, including the victimized spouse, to attempt to move past it by enduring and forgiving AS LONG AS IT NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN. This is where God can be honored, in that a spouse chooses to forgive a one time event even though they would be justified legally in pressing charges.

    Obviously, this does not apply to your case, Jeff…as it was ongoing.

  39. Sad wrote:

    I truly believe when he is preaching to his church, it would boggle his mind to think that there are men sitting there listening to him who would beat their wives. His sermons are hard hitting and convicting and frankly it is hard to imagine being so seared of conscience that one could listen to the words then go home and continue on abusing one’s spouse. Why even attend the service if that is the way one conducts their life?
    So, I think this is where he is coming from…that no serial abuser would be listening to him because they would have left his church ages ago.

    This is nothing more than pure speculation, and an arrogant one at that. Serial abusers of all kinds display some level of sociopathy, and are very adept at appearing gracious and affable to those who only know them casually. Piper would be woefully ignorant to make such an assumption.

  40. Sad –

    Don’t you think that something is amiss with a person’s teaching if other people have to explain what they think the teacher was trying to say, or meant to say, or should have said, or that they could have said it better?

    The problem with what you are saying about Piper and the “abuse for a night” is that the main thrust of that discussion was wrapped around a wife’s submission to her husband and HOW she should respond when being abused, instead of the MAIN issue of the husband not properly loving his wife. The husband should be the subject here and NOT HOW the wife can respond and still be in submission.

  41. Sad, i will never understand why people think they have to parse and interpret for us the words of men who, for decades, have made their vocation as VERY PUBLIC mass communicators on doctrine.

    If Piper needs an interpreter for his sermons and teaching, Then he chose the wrong vocation.

    I say this as one who was immersed in his teachings for years And as one who had family members who studied with him and worked for him.

  42. @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    You are absolutely correct it, is pure speculation. I dispute arrogant, however. I was not addressing in any way how these theoretical abusers might appear on the outside. In truth, a pastor of a large church cannot possibly be intimately familiar with all their attendees. I was merely speculating on what I guessed Piper’s mindset to be concerning those that listen to his sermons on a regular basis.

  43. Sad,
    Even if you are correct in your googoo-eyed, rosy interpretations of John Piper and your apology for his cruelly stupid words regarding women enduring abuse; which I don’t acknowledge; any supposed leader and teacher who needs a Mommy following along behind him explaining and excusing has no business in the pulpit. Any pastor so naive that he thinks preaching against abuse means there are no abusers in his congregation is a menace to his congregation; so I hope you’re wrong about that. And I hope you know better.

    And you haven’t even scratched the surface of his stupid statements.

  44. @ Bridget:

    Bridget,

    I began talking about this in response to what I saw as a misrepresentation of Piper’s teaching. Originally, I tried to let the quotes stand for themselves, but I did not portray the two sections of quotes properly, so I had to explain that.

  45. Sad wrote:

    @ Jeff S:
    I think it is a very precarious place to walk when one attempts to address another believer’s suffering and the “meaning” behind it. So, I’m not going to go there other than to say that I am sorry for what you had to endure.
    Here is my take on what I think Piper is trying to say. First of all, he is a romantic idealist, and I mean that in the best way, not pejoratively. I truly believe when he is preaching to his church, it would boggle his mind to think that there are men sitting there listening to him who would beat their wives. His sermons are hard hitting and convicting and frankly it is hard to imagine being so seared of conscience that one could listen to the words then go home and continue on abusing one’s spouse. Why even attend the service if that is the way one conducts their life?

    I think you are exactly right about Piper- and this is what saves him from being a “monster” in my mind. However, I DO think he is naive, and that his naivete is dangerous.

    Let me be clear- there is no one in public ministry who has hurt me personally more than John Piper. My church followed his doctrine and teaching to the letter and pointed me toward his teaching for how to deal with my marriage. In the end, I lost almost all of my social circle because they were all tied up in the church. So I could be “bitter” with Piper and calling him a heretic, a false teacher, or any other number of names.

    I don’t, because I actually do think Piper has good intentions and desires God (and seeks to show others how to as well). The problem is that he remains uneducated about the realities of abuse and how it shows up in the church. When I went through what I did, I assumed I was an anomaly. Laser I found out I was not- over and over again we hear the same stories about how abusers masquerade as believers and find the church a fertile ground to perpetuate their abuse. I strongly recommend you pick up the book “A Cry For Justice” by Jeff Crippen and Anna Wood where he tells story after story about these situations and how they’ve been mishandled to the detriment of many victims. He also applies scripture to how we deal with abuse in the church and he doesn’t pull any punches (and Jeff is a Reformed Baptist, so again we are talking about Piper’s theological camp). Abuse is rampant in our churches, and is highly likely to be occurring right now in a church the size of Piper’s.

    I totally understand that it’s hard to imagine someone’s conscience allowing him to go to church like Piper’s while being an abuser- that is because they DO NOT THINK LIKE WE DO. They are evil and process the world in a completely different mindset. In so many ways, in ignorance Piper makes statements that betray a belief that this kind of evil does not exist. As Verbal says in “The Usual Suspects”: “The greatest trick the devil ever pulled is making the world believe he doesn’t exist”.

    The problem is that Piper says this stuff publicly and allows himself to be held up as an authority on these subjects. His words have impact on real people when their churches put into practice what he preaches in ignorance. My great prayer for Piper is that he will come to understand the truth about abuse and repent from some of the things he’s said in ignorance. Were this to happen, I fully believe the number of abuse cases in churches would drop dramatically. Piper has that kind of power, and people would listen.

  46. @ Phoenix:

    So what you are saying is that on this website that exists to protect victims, it is only proper to speak up when the victim is one which meets your definition of the term?

  47. @ Sad:
    It IS arrogant to assume that abusers couldn’t exist in MY congregation, because MY sermons are so convicting that an abuser couldn’t stand to remain. What makes Piper think he is so much more special than any other pastor who discovers abuse in their church?

  48. Sad,

    I’m not at all sure what you’re getting at. I can say, though, that I said precisely what I meant. I have a lot of issues but not being able to express myself has never been one of them.

    I’m not the only one to have pointed out that if John Piper needs so much explanation, interpretation, defense, and apology it doesn’t reflect at all well on him as a leader, teacher or pastor. A real man stands by his words and actions and doesn’t Piper constitute himself an expert on “real men”? And he is the one who is laying himself open to charges of hypocrisy and cowardice by not calling out SGM.

  49. Sad wrote:

    @ Phoenix:
    So what you are saying is that on this website that exists to protect victims, it is only proper to speak up when the victim is one which meets your definition of the term?

    Are you suggesting that Piper is the one being victimized?

  50. @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    Yes, and I would go so far, based on what I have read on TWW that any pastor that holds a complementation viewpoint is judged and hanged without a trial by SOME of the readers here.

  51. The views that Piper holds about why we suffer and how we should deal with it isn’t unfortunately, just only him. These views run the gamut in most churches today. They are always trying to interpret scripture to say more than what it really means.

  52. Sad wrote:

    @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    Please don’t ascribe my speculative theory to John Piper himself.

    You did a fine job of ascribing it to him yourself. I merely commented on what I thought of it.

  53. Sad

    ” he is a romantic idealist, and I mean that in the best way, not pejoratively. I truly believe when he is preaching to his church, it would boggle his mind to think that there are men sitting there listening to him who would beat their wives”  This is a startling indictment of his naivete if this is true. Unbelievable,really.

    Your response “ather a believer who lost their temper in the most vile way ONE TIME, repented and never, EVER again repeated the abuser” also shows romantic idealism which does not bear out in reality.  Once a line to physical abuse is crossed, the act inevitably will occur again. One time event? Good night!

  54. Sad

    Any pastor of any church who does not know of incidents of abuse in his church is either living in a la la land of his own choosing or is being “protected” by some misguided individuals which would also speak to his naivete.

  55. @ Sad:

    Sad,
    Even if that is the most benign understanding of Piper’s Q and A advice to an abused spouse, it still does not glorify God more for the spouse to take a chance on it never happening again.
    If the scenario you described happened in my marriage, I would never give my 6′ 6″ 245lb husband another chance to ‘smack’ me. It would have nothing to do with forgiveness. I would forgive and I would suffer more over the loss of the man I love and the divorce that his behavior would have caused.

  56. Sad wrote:

    @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    Yes, and I would go so far, based on what I have read on TWW that any pastor that holds a complementation viewpoint is judged and hanged without a trial by SOME of the readers here.

    It’s not just his complementarian views that some take issue with. It’s the fact that he continues to support a ministry with documented cases of abuse that have now been brought to suit. What about the children that were molested and abused at SGM? Piper continues to stand with those accused of the abuse. How does this make Piper a victim?

  57. @ dee:

    Why is it that people can pontificate day and night on any of these pastors and get a free pass, even cheers from the gallery as long as it is in a distinctly negative light but there is no tolerance whatsoever for attempting to point out that they might not be operating from a place of ego and hunger for power?

  58. Sad

    Are you claiming that the “victim” is John Piper? Egads! Piper is worshipped by people all over the world. They rise to his defense, cry when he says he is leaving the pulpit, beg for his autograph, standing ovations are de rigeur.

    Let’s see. The mom who was beat up “one time”. Compare the response of the church. Most want her to shut up and move on because ,well, “in this church there is no one who should be absued because the sermons are just too good!”

    Sad-who are you defending here? 

  59. Been There

    This must be repeated

    It IS arrogant to assume that abusers couldn’t exist in MY congregation, because MY sermons are so convicting that an abuser couldn’t stand to remain. What makes Piper think he is so much more special than any other pastor who discovers abuse in their church?

  60. Phoenix

    The reason that there are so many Piper apologists is because he says so many gosh darn stupid things. I have another one of his crazy statements that I want to discuss ASAP. He is a treasure trove of blog fillers. 

  61. Long ago I decided that, sadly, over half the people attending church do so for social reasons. And it’s even more sad that many of these don’t even realize it or are willing to admit it to themselves.

  62. dee wrote:

    Been There
    This must be repeated
    It IS arrogant to assume that abusers couldn’t exist in MY congregation, because MY sermons are so convicting that an abuser couldn’t stand to remain. What makes Piper think he is so much more special than any other pastor who discovers abuse in their church?

    As I said, please clarify that John Piper did not say this, it is a paraphrase of something that I put out as a theory, and it is misconstrued at that.

  63. Been There

    Well, I was busy for the last couple of hours and came on and read Sad’s statements. Yes, she believes he is the victim unless she is has trouble expressing herself on this forum.

    If that is the case, Dee is LOLROFx3

  64. Sad wrote:

    @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    Yes, and I would go so far, based on what I have read on TWW that any pastor that holds a complementation viewpoint is judged and hanged without a trial by SOME of the readers here.

    This is true. It’s also true that some readers who have posted here would judge and hang an egalitarian pastor just as easily. Deb and Dee are fairly free in letting people comment. They themselves, however, are not as you describe.

    And to call Piper a “victim” in the same sense as a victim of domestic violence is wrong. Piper has no issue calling out teaching of other pastors when he disagrees with them, so I assume he can withstand the heat. Either way, he is experiencing nothing from this discussion like an abuse victims suffers.

  65. @ dee:

    What I am saying is that I do not believe that a truly redeemed Christian would engage in serial spousal abuse.

  66. Sad

    “Yes, and I would go so far, based on what I have read on TWW that any pastor that holds a complementation viewpoint is judged and hanged without a trial by SOME of the readers here.” This blog exists for ALL opinions, not only those nice, cleaned up, “kiss my feet” opinions of certain bloggers. Wait-that’s right Piper does not even want to hear anyone’s opinions.There are no comments allowed on his blog, right? What is he afraid of?

    Secondly, I would ask what you mean by “comp pastors who are hanged without trial.” They are not being discussed because they are comps, per se. They are being judged by what they say.These guys jump up and down and say “look at me.” They don’t get to choose how people look at them. So, when Piper makes some stupid comment about “how to give road directions to a male”, he gets called on it. 

    And, just so you know, I have been in a church with a pastor who is comp and I have never written about him because he has successfully avoided realy stupid comments.

  67. Sad wrote:

    @ dee:
    What I am saying is that I do not believe that a truly redeemed Christian would engage in serial spousal abuse.

    We agree on this- but do you think everyone who attends Piper’s church is a “truly redeemed Christian”? Does even Piper think that?

    Also, let’s make sure we don’t get the logic backwards.

    So often it’s
    “John is a truly redeemed Christian, so clearly he hasn’t committed serial abuse”.

    rather than
    “John has committed serial abuse so clearly he isn’t a Christian”.

    Of the stories I’ve heard of domestic abuse victims, do you know the percentage where the abuser stayed at the church in good standing and the victim was forced to leave? 90% might be a low number. All an abuser has to do is says he’s sorry, demand forgiveness, and enunciate proper soteriology. If he does all of that, usually a victim is done for in the eyes of the church.

  68. Sad wrote:

    What I am saying is that I do not believe that a truly redeemed Christian would engage in serial spousal abuse.

    Agreed. However, what everyone here is trying to get you to accept is that there are many abusive people with redeemed-christain clothing on walking around in the church. And Pipers teachings are a foundation for the abusers to use against their victims.

  69. Sad

    ” it is misconstrued at that.” Well, why don’t you help all of us who read the comment that way (and I did and I have been blogging for a long time) understand what you meant. And your theory made no sense to us.

  70. Sad wrote:

    dee wrote:
    Been There
    This must be repeated
    It IS arrogant to assume that abusers couldn’t exist in MY congregation, because MY sermons are so convicting that an abuser couldn’t stand to remain. What makes Piper think he is so much more special than any other pastor who discovers abuse in their church?
    As I said, please clarify that John Piper did not say this, it is a paraphrase of something that I put out as a theory, and it is misconstrued at that.

    “Here is my take on what I think Piper is trying to say.” . . . “So, I think this is where he is coming from…”
    These are the statements you made above. I agree, you didn’t state that Piper said what you stated. But it was put forth as where you believed Piper stood in regards to these matters.

  71. @ dee:

    This has nothing to do with church attendance or who one’s pastor is. I am saying that I don’t think that a person that truly understands redemption and what it cost God, and what therefore we owe God in terms of obedience, can repeatedly abuse their spouse.

  72. Sad,

    I believe the topic we were trying to stay on is that Piper has yet to comment and reach his hand out to victims. His teachings support the reason why. However, now we are on the topic of ‘can a tue christian still abuse?’

    I feel like we are chasing a monkey (the topic) around a tree.

  73. Sad

    You came on here to discuss Piper’s statement. You then theorized why he would say such a misguided thing about abuse. You then tried to defend Piper by saying that you theorized that he was a “romantic idealist” a rather unique term for a guy who like to pretend he knows who is being punished by tornadoes. Romanitc idealism reminds me of Victorian romances not Piper.To me, Piper reminds more more of Edgar Allen Poe in his view of the faith if, we are getting into literary analysis.

    Piper said something really stupid. I have yet to hear one reason from you that would help me to see why what he said in this instance was not asinine.

    I would agree with you 12:30 statement in principle if one adds the caveat of the potential of serious mental illness or a brain tumor which has caused a sudden change in behavior.

  74. Daughter

    Applause! Piper is going to speak at CJ Mahaney’s church. Unless he is going there to tell CJ to shut up and stay out of the limelight until he apologizes or is convicted, then Piper is showing that  he is far more concerned about Mahaney’s image than the many, many people who have been hurt. That is not a true “pastor” in my book. If he does this, then I write him off as having anything to say about the faith. He is not worth it,.

  75. The comments on Justin Taylor’s blog about gossip are still standing, Ray Ortland has joined the conversation.

  76. Another SGM church is leaving the organization. I heard about it from a friend last night and now Brent Detwiler has a blog post about it. http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2013/2/13/mark-altrogge-and-sovereign-grace-church-of-indiana-pa-leave.html

    I was a member at that church for five years in the 1980’s, and have very fond memories of my time there. Brent was one of the founding pastors and Mark Altrogge has been senior pastor since about 1982, I think. It’s a small church, but a significant one in SGM. Brent came from there, Dave Harvey came from there, and Mark Altrogge is one of the leading song writers for SGM Music and is pretty well known. I am happy and relieved that they have decided to leave. I guess a formal statement is forthcoming.

    Brent also mentions that another of the older churches, in Cleveland, is considering leaving, too. The pastors have recommended it and is waiting on feedback from the congregation.

  77. Sad wrote:

    I am saying that I don’t think that a person that truly understands redemption and what it cost God, and what therefore we owe God in terms of obedience, can repeatedly abuse their spouse.

    I have to disagree.

    1. It is pointless to argue if someone “truly” understanding redemption, the price of it, and obedience is motivating factor to cause someone to not sin against another. We can never know what they understand.

    2. Understanding doctrine, i.e. understanding redemption, what it cost God and our return obedience, which is really doctrine of salvation, doctrine of atonement, etc..) doesn’t necessarily inspire LOVE in the heart of the Hearer and the Knower. The argument that this entire post presents is resultant in the fact that these men who highly esteem doctrine and practice have missed out on understanding and applying love in the most grandiose and unconditional ways that could ever be given towards another that is humanly possible.

    So if someone who is a teacher of doctrine and practice misses the mark when it comes to love, then surely some layperson who abuses his wife can also miss love. They do not have love in their hearts. That is the reason why a person abuses another. In addition, the many issues of that person’s personality and personal issues don’t get settled just beucase they “understand” what God has done for them, or udnerstand the price Christ paid, or understand that we owe God obedience. “Getting saved” is not some immediate band-aid over a person’s life and resolves all of their issues, no matter how much they have been taught. Doctrine doesn’t necessarily move the heart towards love. What inspires love is quite mysterious and our capacity to love others and be self-less isn’t always inspired by what we know about God, but is inspired by the quality and condition of our own hearts.

    That is why there are many athiests and non-Christians who have the most amazing loving hearts and humanitarian efforts towards others. Their respect and love for humanity exists apart from their acceptance of some type of doctrine or belief. And that leads to this…

    3. Belief is completely different than being. Many Christians believe yet live completely differently than what they believe. They do have a true understanding of doctrine or a set of accepted beliefs by the church, but yet, you see in their daily lives that what they believe is not actually what they practice. There are both very small and really grand examples of this that can be easily pointed out in many professing Christians.

    4. I believe that the Bible says that Christ’s sacrifice was a free gift. There are no conditions. There is no “pay back” for what has been done for us. We can’t pay it back, not even with perfect obedience. We owe God nothing. Therefore, we don’t “owe” God obedience because Christ died for us and was perfectly obedience. Then what results is a matter of the heart. I dont, in my opinion, “obey” God just because I feel that I owe that to God. That idea has never really helped me become a better person. It just made me legalistic and judgemental, especially of others. Therefore, the more I tried to obey because I owed God, the less love was in my heart, for God and for others.

    I believe a man that hath not love in his heart, and has his own issues, no matter what he knows about God and feels he owes him, will not be spurred on to great love for another until he is overwhelmed by love himself, and that takes a lot more than doctrine or belief.

    My two cents.

  78. “Piper reminds more more of Edgar Allen Poe in his view of the faith if, we are getting into literary analysis.”

    Love this!

  79. Trina –

    Thanks for taking the time to write that out. When I read the statement you quoted I came away with the sense that it sounded like something a Pharisee would say. I had walked that very road and didn’t like what I had become. I found that love was often missing from my actions. I was obeying because I was supposed to, and I thought everyone else should do the same. I came to a place where I saw the actions of many parents, including myself at times, quite contrary to how Jesus interacted with people. I realized that I was behaving like a Pharisee toward my own children. The Holy Spirit did a real work in me as I began crying out to God to help me love others as Jesus loved others. I came to realize that there is no “one size fits all” when learning to love as Jesus loved. When I looked at how Jesus loved others, I saw the same thing. Each interaction was unique and fitted to the individual and was often an unexpected gesture. He even loved the Pharisees by speaking strongly about their misrepresentations of God 🙂

    BTW – my learning to love others is an ongoing project 😉

  80. “I am saying that I don’t think that a person that truly understands redemption and what it cost God, and what therefore we owe God in terms of obedience, can repeatedly abuse their spouse.”

    I agree to a point but would qualify it with a person who has the indwelling Holy Spirit and understands that we CAN, as believers, be obedient to: Love God and Love others. The problem is that Piper and others teach that a woman’s submission is “Gospel”. So, her salvation depends on this and this is music to the abusers ear because HE GETS TO DEFINE SUBMISSION!

    What Piper and many others do not understand is the church has become a very safe place for abusers and even pedophiles. A cloak of piousness usually does the trick for everyone. And when the church believers we remain totally depraved with wicked hearts after salvation and others believe Jesus went to the cross so we could sin all we want, then that makes it even better for the abusers and pedophiles. They can say “sorry” and be not only protected but celebrated! The victim looks like a bitter shrew for not believing there has really been a serious change or for wanting civil justice.

    The irony is that cheap grace and lawlessness both protect abusers and pedophiles. I think what many are doing here are saying, let us focus on and love the victims, pursue justice as it fits and as we can…… THEN take brownies to the abusers and pedophiles in jail. :o)

  81. @ Bridget:
    Isn’t it always? We are always learning how to love others, and you are right, it is certainly ongoing. But here’s my additional confession: I have never been able to connect with love towards God just because Christ died for my sins. Like I could see examples of that in my life, like oh man, I did that and I didn’t die immediately or that didn’t send me to hell when (if I believed in hell, which I dont) it should. I have always struggled with “loving” God because I cannot see or touch him. You know, God the person. But I think that’s kinda the point for some (maybe for most, I dont know). I have a hard time connecting with things or ideas that I cannot see, feel or touch. And for me, God is an idea UNTIL I can see, feel or touch him. And I feel the only way that I can experience God or love him, is to both give and receive unconditionally from others.

    So I feel that part of the human experience of experiencing God is to be loved immensely by others, and to return that love. It is a mystery, I believe, for which there are no pat answers. But in my experience, love tends to work that way. When I look at the life of Jesus, I do see that he loved others sacrificially and unconditionally. I see that as an example. But I dont necessarily experience that love directly from Jesus. Yet, when others try to be LIKE Christ towards me, then I experience a love like that. I have had difficulty loving those who have not loved me, or who were abusive or mean to me for obvious reasons. But my ability to love is often increased when I am loved. I believe that love inspires love. I dont believe that doctrine or right belief inspires love. I also believe that love is separate from religious practice. I believe that religious practice is best displayed when love is co-mingled with it. Afterall, if a person needs beliefs about God in order to be good, then what they lack is a heart and love, not religion.

  82. Julie Anne

     They have stopped allowing comments. I will feature Ray Ortlund’s parting comment this week. 

  83. @ Julie Anne:
    Julie Anne–I’d say one way to stop church killing gossip, is to stop church supported child rape and pedophilia. They think the wrong thing is killing the church. Baaad diagnosis. Baaad!

    Dear Gospel Coalition,

    Put it under the microscope and take one mo look. And make sho you clean ya lens real good this time. You see those rapidly growing cells that look like… umm hmm… you got it. That ain’t gossip, baby. What you got there is lies, deceit, power mongering, and fear. I haven’t seen a case like this in all my career.

    Now take two of these love tablets every day, twice a day for the rest of you life and you should see the symptoms subsiding in about 7-14 days. Tell ya momma I said hello. I havne’t seen her in a while.

    Signed,

    Dr. T.

  84. Jeff S wrote:

    @ dee:
    I guess I get to enter a comment in the “my comment was deleted” section now

    Did they delete your comment at the gossip thread?

  85. I swear, every time these little boys post, they are never ready for the onslaught they are about to get. They NEVER expect the feedback to be challenging. I bet once they see those first set of dissenting comments they put somebody on iceberg watch like dude on the Titanic. Except, he too late. ALWAYS. The entire crew starts racing for the flood doors trying to partition off the ship before the entire ship sinks, yet, they are always too late. But like the United Concordia, their cap’n always jumps ship and forgets about the damage he’s done. SMH And women want to be married to such scardeycats? Jeez! I’ve got more cajones than this lot. What a bunch of wusses!

  86. anonymous wrote:

    Jeff S wrote:
    @ dee:
    I guess I get to enter a comment in the “my comment was deleted” section now

    Did they delete your comment at the gossip thread?

    Yes

  87. I am really sick and tired of the “gossip” mantra whenever somebody tries to address serious issues.
    Mahaney and his “family of churches” stand accused of a long list of very serious abuses. Now, I just googled “paid leave for abuse accusations.” It seems very common for someone facing these accusations in religious, teaching, or law professions (and perhaps others) to be placed on paid leave of absence while such accusations are being investigated. This is not a presumption of guilt, merely a protocol to respect both sides until the truth can be ascertained. Would it not be ethical, and show compassion on those bringing the accusations, for Mahaney to, at least, take a paid leave of absence until this is settled? But for Mahaney and his network of minister supporters to carry on like “business as usual” in light of such abuse charges shows a complete lack of concern for those who are bringing the abuse charges. It’s this lack of concern that is such a blatant fault. I don’t see how anyone with such a quality can consider themselves a shepherd of God’s people.

  88. @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    Shoot, if my job paid me to take leave for getting in trouble… Iown know. I might just pour some water in my CPU right this minute.

    I mean, that’s all a sociopath needs is free time to think up other forms of trickery and tomfoolery for the masses AND get paid for it? Shoot. I’m done. Life ain’t fair! Can I get an amen?

  89. @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    I just mean that we get a accused of not “presuming innocence until proven guilty” or of ” gossiping.” Meanwhile, there are steps these men can take to deal compassionately with this. It’s too easy to slap a label on us.

  90. Jeff S wrote:

    anonymous wrote:
    Jeff S wrote:
    @ dee:
    I guess I get to enter a comment in the “my comment was deleted” section now
    Did they delete your comment at the gossip thread?

    Yes

    I think you asked a good question. When do they have all the facts? At what point is enough information enough information to come to a conclusion?

  91. Hey all

    Julie Anne took a screen shot of the comments. It looks like Taylor started to delete comments after Ray Ortlund-Pastor. Here is his parting shot and a comment by another person which is no longer there.

      • Thanks, Patti. I will not enter into an extended discussion in a comment thread. I will just say this.

        Some years ago a friend came under intense accusation. The accusations were untrue. But he lost his ministry position.

        Later in the very day when he left that ministry, my friend’s mom found his dad on the floor of the hallway in their home. He had collapsed. He was moaning, “My son, my son.” Five months later, the man was dead.

        I wonder if my friend’s accusers thought through in advance what the full human impact of their pursuit would be.

        Well, that made me determine that, for the rest of my life, I will try to be cautious when I don’t know all the facts. People can be badly hurt by false accusations. They can also be hurt by injustices that are never confronted. Both are harmful. And isn’t that what we all want — to protect all innocent people from harm?

    • Pastor Ortlund

      Scripture appears to point out that it is significant when there are 2-3 witnesses. From my vantage point, this number has been far exceeded. Also, I bet some people could point out victims of abuse who have also died due to stress as well so the anecdotes could play out on both sides.

  92. @ dee:

    My deleted comment (which I already posted) was in response to the one you just showed:

    “Ray, at what point will you know all of the facts, and what steps are you taking to get to that point?

    I think that sounds like a prudent course of action, but it also has been a long time of fact finding, unless no one is actually looking.”

  93. Good grief, Dee, I think we need to do a post on predictable online behavior of church leaders who know they are in the hot seat. Because of blogging about spiritual abusers, screen shots have become 2nd nature to me. Prior to doing this, I had to look up how to do screen shots each and every time because i so rarely did them. @@ (:::ja rolling her eyes in disgust::)

    When the smoke gets hot, time to pull out the NO-TALK rule (“comments closed”) Way to go, Justin – way to have open dialogue about GOSSIP!!!! LOL

  94. Sorry, JA is on a roll and can’t stop:

    This comment by Nell was GREAT: Scripture appears to point out that it is significant when there are 2-3 witnesses. From my vantage point, this number has been far exceeded. Also, I bet some people could point out victims of abuse who have also died due to stress as well so the anecdotes could play out on both sides.

    Of course they had to remove it. They might be held accountable to their own sin.

  95. Julie Anne wrote:

    Sorry, JA is on a roll and can’t stop:
    This comment by Nell was GREAT: Scripture appears to point out that it is significant when there are 2-3 witnesses. From my vantage point, this number has been far exceeded. Also, I bet some people could point out victims of abuse who have also died due to stress as well so the anecdotes could play out on both sides.
    Of course they had to remove it. They might be held accountable to their own sin.

    And since they live in their own little fiefdoms where no dissent is allowed, they can’t stand it when somebody pushes back.

  96. Sad wrote:

    @ I am saying that I don’t think that a person that truly understands redemption and what it cost God, and what therefore we owe God in terms of obedience, can repeatedly abuse their spouse.

    I disagree. Redeemed believers sin just like unredeemed believers. Do some research on the statistics on spouse abuse, divorce, adultery, etc. and you may change your mind.

  97. Justin Taylor will also block you. Happened to me a while back when I challenged D.A. Carson (they’re resident “scholar”) on an issue. Carson’s assistants do a lot, if not most, of his writing for him. Everyone in academic circles knows this. But Justin got very upset when I pointed that out publicly in a post about the dangers and false pretenses of ghost writing.

  98. That whole comment about the father on the floor who later died made me angry.

    The fact of the matter is, if CJ Mahaney had done the right things YEARS ago in response to problems as they occurred as well as in RECENT MONTHS AND YEARS by taking responsibility for the serious problems in his own life and in the ministry of SGM, THEN A LOT OF SUFFERING COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED. The fact he is being suported by these other leaders is ADDING TO THE SUFFERING.

    The longer this goes on, the more damage will be done. Meanwhile Mr. Ortland cares more about cries of an old man who doesnt exist while turning a blind eye to the cries of people who do!

  99. @ Sad:
    Sad – that may very well be true…but we are to judge a tree by its fruit…& whilst things might look nice & very godly on the surface, it is undoubtedly true that the ideas Piper espouses do in fact have very serious consequences in people’s lives, including that of allowing (even indirectly through emphasising, for example, wifely submission over husbandly love…which he does, possibly unknowingly)abuse against some of the weakest in our congregations. Is submission to Elders for the image of the church more important than the reporting of child rape to the Police? As one who currently has 2 raped children on her caseload, I say NO. A THOUSAND TIMES NO. It’s that kind of candy coated crazy that makes the world think we are monsters…

  100. Regarding the parting Ortlund comments at Taylor’s blog

    1. There guys are wusses for deleting a comment by a woman-they really are afraid of women, aren’t they?
    2. Ortlund shows a profound lack of knowledge about cause and effect. The pastor’s dad  got stressed out by unfair accusations of his son and he DIED!  Of course, it must have been those horrible people who caused his death. It couldn’t have been a heart problem or an aneurysm. Do these guys know how stupid they sound when they say such things??? Now, seminary coonveys a medical degree as well?
    3. They do not like this hundreds of witnesses stuff. It really screws up their hermeneutics.
    4. Bet thy don’t want to talk bout all the churches that are leaving either. 

    All of them should be ashamed.

    In the meantime, I am laying on the floor, crying for the victims. 

     

  101. I personally know a “truly redeemed believer” who abused his wife. In this case it was a direct result of complementarian teaching. (Please, I am NOT making a universal connection between comp teaching and abuse, I am discussing one case). This guy understood all he had heard about wifely submission to mean that he was in charge of her and had the right to ‘discipline’ her when she questioned his judgement. He honestly believed that was how it played out, and was shocked to learn that not only was it wrong, but also a crime. Naive? Ill-informed? Absolutely! But a Christian in good standing with his church who beat his wife? Also true.

    He is also the only wife-abuser I have ever heard of who, once he was confronted and rightly taught, never hit his wife again.

  102. Lynne–

    That is an interesting story. At the end, though, I wonder why a person would need to learn empathy in that regard? I mean, doesn’t it scare you that there are people who dont really feel bad about what they are doing and need to be “taught” to not hit or abuse others? That feels kinda creepy about that guy. But I guess, maybe, and I really stretch the maybe part, it is the same about parents who are taught that they must beat their kids to earn Gods approval of their parenting, and that if they dont beat their kids, then the child’s salvation is at stake. But I often hear these parents say how bad it made them feel and they really regret it. I do wonder if this guy felt that way? But I dont know. That just makes me steaming mad.

  103. “Ray, at what point will you know all of the facts, and what steps are you taking to get to that point?

    Bingo Jeff!!! They keep themselves isolated from the peasants and then use the mantra that we don’t have all the facts. Not even the court can make a judgement on ALL the facts! They make judgements based on evidence. So the isolated, non transparent “spiritual” people make ALL the facts the standard for themselves when they control who can know ALL the facts!

    I mean, can you get a better gig for controlling people?

  104. Dee – I’ve got other comments that came to my email that I will send. I think they were approved and then deleted. Btw, I noticed Paul Dohse’s cutrent blog post is dealing with gossip and removed comments from Pyro blog. Frank Turk does not mince words to commenters who bring up CJ’s beloved name. :::::sarcasm:::::

  105. “Justin Taylor will also block you. Happened to me a while back when I challenged D.A. Carson (they’re resident “scholar”) on an issue. Carson’s assistants do a lot, if not most, of his writing for him. Everyone in academic circles knows this. But Justin got very upset when I pointed that out publicly in a post about the dangers and false pretenses of ghost writing.”

    I suspected as much since I know many mega churc pastors did the same thing and people would gush about getting personal correspondance and we knew it was all boilerplate stuff. (rolls eyes)

  106. “2. Ortlund shows a profound lack of knowledge about cause and effect. The pastor’s dad got stressed out by unfair accusations of his son and he DIED! Of course, it must have been those horrible people who caused his death. It couldn’t have been a heart problem or an aneurysm. Do these guys know how stupid they sound when they say such things??? Now, seminary coonveys a medical degree as well?

    Here is the take away Ray Ortlund wants: Do not speak of any negative truths or discuss serious problems about behavior or teaching from Christian leaders or they might die and it will be your fault.

    And they want us to take them seriously? Are people really this blind they PAY these guys to teach them???? Boggles my mind.

  107. Jeff S wrote:

    Sad wrote:

    @ dee:
    What I am saying is that I do not believe that a truly redeemed Christian would engage in serial spousal abuse.

    We agree on this- but do you think everyone who attends Piper’s church is a “truly redeemed Christian”? Does even Piper think that?

    Also, let’s make sure we don’t get the logic backwards.

    So often it’s
    “John is a truly redeemed Christian, so clearly he hasn’t committed serial abuse”.

    rather than
    “John has committed serial abuse so clearly he isn’t a Christian”.

    Of the stories I’ve heard of domestic abuse victims, do you know the percentage where the abuser stayed at the church in good standing and the victim was forced to leave? 90% might be a low number. All an abuser has to do is says he’s sorry, demand forgiveness, and enunciate proper soteriology. If he does all of that, usually a victim is done for in the eyes of the church.

    THIS. Especially if the abuser is the husband. I know that wasn’t the case in your situation, Jeff, but I think you’d agree that most of the time it’s the abusive husband who gets to stay put in the church and spin the story to make himself look good while his abused wife flees to protect herself and the children.

  108. Anon1

    Speak ill of a leader and you will cause them, of their loved ones, to DIE!!!  

    So now they up the ante-calling you a gossip, wicked or unregenerate os not enough. Now you are a killer of pastor and their families!!!!!! 

  109. Julie Anne wrote:

    Dee – I’ve got other comments that came to my email that I will send. I think they were approved and then deleted. Btw, I noticed Paul Dohse’s cutrent blog post is dealing with gossip and removed comments from Pyro blog. Frank Turk does not mince words to commenters who bring up CJ’s beloved name. :::::sarcasm:::::

    Julie Anne,

    Thanks for the heads up on this article from Paul Dohse. Very worthwhile read. Lots in there I never thought about before but explains a lot about their mentality and disdain for survivors (“survivors” as they call them). Here’s the link if anyone is interested.

    http://paulspassingthoughts.com/2013/02/13/my-answer-to-justin-taylor-and-pyro-blog-regarding-the-gospel-centered-take-on-gossip/

  110. To our readers/Nickname

    This AM, Nickname wrote a funny comment. 

    Bingo — Yes, I thought about putting an N in Looeyville, but opted to remain subtle, out of respect for the horses who run in the Derby — not the horses’ rears that run other things in town.

    So, Dee got to thinking. In Boston, we would say “bang a Louie” which means to make a right turn. Now, there are many guesses as to how this phrase was developed. Some think it was after the great Joe Lewis who had a mean left hook. There are other thoughts but one and all agree that it means “left.”

    So, left in politics recalls communism/socialism which reminded me of the Politburo in the old Soviet Union. This is how my brain works. SBTS is in Louisville and I now claim it to be the Calvinista Politburo! If this doesn’t prove I have ADD of my thought processes, I do not know what will.

    I will now add that definition to our definition page SBTS=The Calvinista Politburo.

  111. “A pastor’s high visibility makes him especially vulnerable to destructive talk. We pastors have no coercive power, and we don’t want any. We want winsome influence, as we preach the message of Christ and bear the image of Christ. But to serve people effectively in that way, all we pastors have going for us is our reputations, our public acceptability. That is why it is a sin of special seriousness to injure the reputation of a gospel-preaching, godly pastor. He is not the only one who suffers. The cause of Christ suffers.

    I have grieved for C. J. Mahaney in recent months, as he has been openly spoken against. I have never in my life witnessed a campaign of slander on such a scale as that aimed at C. J. This behavior is clearly unbiblical and therefore self-discrediting. To those few criticisms which rightly struck home to C. J.’s conscience, he has responded humbly. He has taken those accusations before the Lord, in community with other responsible men, and has received them as he believes is right in the Lord’s sight, with repeated attempts to reconcile with his accusers. No one could reasonably ask for more. Personally, it appears to me that C. J. has even over-confessed to his critics.”
    http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/rayortlund/2011/10/14/c-j-mahaney/

    This was part of Ortlund’s terribly, horribly confusing article regarding Mahaney which he wrote on Oct. 14 2011. I am assuming it is in response to Detweiler’s documents. It starts out with a recitation of the 9th commandment (was he implying the docs were lies?) along with a barrage of single verses on speech. I wonder if Ortlund will make a public retraction for this statement, “Personally, it appears to me that C. J. has even over-confessed to his critics” what with Mahaney doing his unconfessing of his confession at the PC that year. Ortlund goes on to say:

    “It’s easy to justify spreading a negative report about someone, if we believe it to be true. But even if it is true – not an opinion, not an accusation, not a rumor, but a properly established fact – that does not justify passing it along. The Bible says, “A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back” (Proverbs 29:11). The Bible says, “Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear” (Ephesians 4:29). Whatever we might feel like saying or posting, however intensely we might feel it, the gospel simply changes the subject. Three times the risen Jesus greeted his disciples this way: “Peace be with you” (John 20:19, 21, 26). If we will bring our tongues under the control of his peace, our churches will be safe places where more people can meet Christ. And no grievance is worth disturbing that blood-bought peace.”

    I remember thinking how odd it was to read that…it still is incredible. NOTHING-no grievance–no matter how horrendous– is worth disturbing the “blood bought peace” in churches where people can “meet Christ”. These pastors better get a grip on reality–no one is going to want to come to such a church where grievous sin is not worth disturbing the supposed members of said church. What on earth is he talking about? Unity/peace at all costs?

    These single line statements followed by a verse just do not cut it. He compares repeating facts as giving full vent to one’s spirit–iow–a fool. He appears to equate corrupting talk (Eph 4:29) with repeating facts. He says if we feel like saying something…whatever it may be…the gospel will change that. The life, death and resurrection of Jesus changes that? How? We don’t know. Then he says because Jesus says “Peace be to you”, a few times, that somehow means we have to keep quiet to gain that peace, which means bringing our tongues under the control of His peace.

    Is that what these verses mean? What a mess.

  112. Diane

    Awesome comment. I wonder-should I send this to ortlund to see if he will respond? Thoughts, everyone?

  113. @ anonymous:
    Thanks for posting the link – I forgot to grab the link on my smartphone.dee wrote:

    Anon1
    Death by Commenting will be next!

    Isn’t this what Jon Immel and Paul Dohse talk about when discussing spiritual tyranny? It does end up in violence. We’ve already seen spiritual tyranny tear up families and marriages. What is next? There always seems to be a progression, right?

  114. @ Dee~

    “2. Ortlund shows a profound lack of knowledge about cause and effect. The pastor’s dad got stressed out by unfair accusations of his son and he DIED! Of course, it must have been those horrible people who caused his death. It couldn’t have been a heart problem or an aneurysm. Do these guys know how stupid they sound when they say such things??? Now, seminary coonveys a medical degree as well?”

    It’s really quite abusive and insulting, imo. He throws out something to evoke an emotional response so we would immediately feel guilty. Ortlund must be used to his congregants accepting such shallow reasoning but the fact is Ortlund thinks that should be good enough for us. Nice try, though.

  115. JennyI know that wasn’t the case in your situation, Jeff, but I think you’d agree that most of the time it’s the abusive husband who gets to stay put in the church and spin the story to make himself look good while his abused wife flees to protect herself and the children.

    Yes, and in my case there wasn’t really “spin” required. My church’s stance was “emotional abuse doesn’t matter- it’s your job to suffer”. I was believed- but all that meant is we had a label for the way I was to serve The Lord.

    But my own situation has led me to hear about more and more situations, especially on the ACFJ blog, and for the most part they are exactly as you describe: the abuser is believed and the victim leaves. Abusers are master deceivers and they welcome an environment where they are given the benefit of the doubt for their outward behavior.

    On a related note, George Simon just came out with a new book called “The Judas Syndrome”- I am in the middle of reading it right now, but it is EXCELLENT. He is writing this as both a psychologist and a Christian. The first part “When Bad People Do Bad Things” gives examples of abuse by unrepentant people who use religion to cover their bad behavior and get what they want from others. I STRONGLY recommend it for any who is dealing even tangentially with issues of spiritual abuse.

  116. Trina, I agree, it’s problematic. But the guy grew up in extreme Calvinism in a family that practised a level of emotional detachment that still amazes me. I think he buried a lot of his “soft” side very young, because he was taught to, and because it hurt too much to admit that he had unmet emotional needs. He had to be “taught” empathy, but, on the positive side he was very teachable, and I would honestly say he is a much nicer person now than he was 20 years ago. But he had to go to a therapy group to get there.

    One thing that makes me angry in this situation is that when, at his wife’s insistence, he went and confessed to his pastor, the pastor’s responses were:
    1) Since you’ve stopped doing it you don’t need to resign from the eldership of the church
    2) Why did she let you do it? (Duh, he was much bigger than she was!)
    Never, ever did the pastor speak to the wife on the subject or ask whether she was ok! (I’m pretty sure she was seen as the “bad guy” for being unsubmissive enough to put conditions on the marriage!)

    It’s a small thing compared to the stuff we’re talking about in SGM — but the thought processes are eerily similar, even though this happened about 20 or so years ago on the other side of the world!

  117. Re: Ray Ortlund My comments about what he wrote on his blog.

    1.arrogant
    2.self-righteous
    3.justifying
    4.self-centered
    5.arrogant

    “we pastors have no coercive power,and we don’t want any” LOL, I don’t believe you…

  118. Proverbial Ditchdigging: Are You Suffering From Static SGM Cling? 

    Hey,

    A moment for some thoughts…? (Thanx!)

    I don’t know why these men who cling to C.J. Mahaney do not expose him. They must enjoy being with men who fancy a false walk. Deceived men following deceiving men.

    hmmm…

    Surely such men should know bedda, don’t you think?

     Venerable “Spiritual Ditch Diggers” (TM) on the road to deception; men who’s light is darkness, who blind other men’s mind’s to da truth?

    What?

    As for you, be not so. 

    Bondage and fear is sooooo not of God. 

    Again…

    Bondage and fear does not become God’s dear children.

    For dat madder, Guilt and Shame is not His way; His way is freedom from bondage and fear, and spiritual poverty and spiritual destitution. And He brings wit His Spirit, Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Long suffering, Kindness, Understanding, and Self-control! (among other things)

    These men utilize confession of sin as a form of  juicy blackmail. You tell them stuff as a type of deeper initiation rite (to the group) , then they use it against you to bind you to their will. 

    We have repeatedly heard the “You can proceed no farther with this group unless you tell us some deep dark sin of yours…” 

    (However, this hearty confession will be to your undoing, as they will exact the last farthing. )

    This is a ‘Sin Confession Club’ (TM), they utilized “sin” as a machination of control. 

    They masterbate your mind until you have confessed some dark secret, then they use it to your undoing. This is partly the reason escape from SGM is made so difficult.

    (This type of behavior has in it the makings of a religious cult.)

    By bring your sin to God,He alone brings remedy, His remedy.

    Again…

    Only God can bring remedy for sin. 

    And He has. (In Christ Jesus)

    The remedy for sin comes from Christ Jesus, alone.

    Again, Again, and Again, sin’s remedy comes from Christ. 

    Got it?

    Sin’s remedy does not come from man, but from Christ’s atoning blood. 

    It is the covering of Christ’s blood above the door of your soul, that causes the proverbial angel of death to pass your ‘house’ by.

    It is God Himself who has rent the vail so that you might enter in and fellowship with Him. 

    Christ Jesus Himself has made a way for you by His atoning blood. No longer are you to cower in the mis-begotten corners of guilt and shame, and un-perforated  darkness.

    “Let there be light!”

    If the Son shall set you free, you are free indeed!

    Really!

    Reach out and receive what He has to offer you today.

    You will be glad you did.

    No more creepy “Boogychurchmen” (TM) need hide under your bed!

    (Take dat, you widdle boogychurchmen, wap, wap…) -Tweedy (modified)

    If Christ has set you free, you are free indeed! 

    Don’t forget Silly…

    hum,hum…♪♪♪blue sky’s, talkin bout blue sky’s ….

    ♪♪♪Blue skies smiling at me, nothing but blue skies do I see!

     ‘…Never saw the Son shining so bright, never saw things going so right. Blue days all of them gone, nothing but blue skies from now on…’

    ♪♪♪Blue skys, talk’in bout blue skys…

    (grin)

    hahahahaha

    S “㋡”py

  119. Diane

    Here is the entire ridiculous comment

    Some years ago a friend came under intense accusation. The accusations were untrue. But he lost his ministry position.

    Later in the very day when he left that ministry, my friend’s mom found his dad on the floor of the hallway in their home. He had collapsed. He was moaning, “My son, my son.” Five months later, the man was dead.

    I wonder if my friend’s accusers thought through in advance what the full human impact of their pursuit would be.

    The accusers killed him-5 months later. It is not only maudlin, uncovincing writing but it sounds ridiculous. Even a first year biology student would question the “gospel trajectory” here. I bet Ortlund loves urband legends as well.

     

  120. @ Anon 1:

    “I am saying that I don’t think that a person that truly understands redemption and what it cost God, and what therefore we owe God in terms of obedience, can repeatedly abuse their spouse.”

    I agree to a point but would qualify it with a person who has the indwelling Holy Spirit…
    ***************

    Hmmmm not so sure.

    I know i have the “indwelling Holy Spirit” (of course, this is not something proveable). Yet, I am fully aware that I do all sorts of things that are counter, opposing. I’m familiar with moments when I turn off that side of me (conscience, and what I presume to be the Holy Spirit) and willfully “go places” I know are not good/right/best.

    There is a scale of sorts for these things — there are invisible lines that I (with my personality, upbringing, physical/mental/emotional condition, circumstance-set) will not cross. This line is different for different people based on all those unique variables in the parentheses above.

    I don’t mean to say right and wrong are relative, but rather that where we go in our behavior derives from a unique cocktail of variables, and what is scathingly unimagineable to one person is simply not to someone else (a whole host of shades of compunction, depending on the person & their “life cocktail”).

    I truly don’t think the occupation of the Holy Spirit (oil) necessarily neutralizes the vinegary parts of a person’s life cocktail. Perhaps this does happen for some people, in different ways and in different measure. But these things seem to defy being quantified/qualified/catalogued/etc. It’s loaded with variety as to how it all happens and works itself out.

    Freedom from evil to love, joy, peace, and being a vessel through whom God can move is the destination. The journey is varied. There may be general sameness if one looks at the outward appearances of what’s in the pews on a sunday morning — but inside is a world of variety.

    So, I can conceive of a person with whom the Holy Spirit dwells, who for reasons of their own life cocktail may go to physically abusive places, with remorse. I think such a person is headed for greater and greater disaster without help. But I don’t think the Holy Spirit has necessarily never been inside — or vacates the person, having at one time taken up residence. Although Perhaps remains silent in the background, from being rejected or ignored.

  121. New post, or should I say lecture,  by Ray Ortlund link

    Everyone wants the righteousness of God.  No one desires misery.  Everyone wants the right outcomes that are truly of God.

    How do we get there?

    Not by our angry demandingness.  If our cause really is of God, he will watch over it.  We can trust him for that.  Our part is to be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger.

    To reap an abundant harvest of righteousness, the really satisfying righteousness that is of God, the way forward is not to demand, to pressure, to embarrass, but to sow peace, shalom, wholeness, humaneness.  

    Translation: Shhhhh-or else you are not “godly” like “they” are. Be peaceful, serene, tranquil…just leave us the heck alone.

  122. Jenny wrote:

    @ Jeff S:
    Oh, and what is the ACFJ Blog?

    https://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/

    It is the blog “A Cry For Justice” run by Jeff Crippen (A pastor who wrote the book “A Cry For Justice” dealing with domestic abuse in the evangelical church) and Barbara Roberts (who wrote “Not Under Bondage” dealing with Biblical divorce for abuse victims)- I, along with Megan Cox, am one of the admin/contributors to the site in addition to Barbara and Jeff C. We specifically deal with domestic abuse and issues surrounding it.

    It’s also worth mentioning, my post from yesterday about the movie “Tangled” originated as a comment of mine here, though it has been much expanded 🙂

    https://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/emotional-abuse-tangled-and-a-revealing-comment/#comment-12828

  123. @ elastigirl:
    Elastigirl, this is a tricky subject and I believe there are exceptions to the general rule. I would say the following statement is true (but I will qualify meanings): all abusers are not true Christians.

    Now here the key definition is the word “abuser”. The way I mean the term here is a person who is dominated by a sense of entitlement that they can use and hurt others for their own wants and desires. I think such a person by definition cannot be a Christian.

    However, I believe that Christians can abuse without meeting that definition. An abuse victim may be so think in the fog of abuse herself that she becomes an abuser for a season. Perhaps that person is manipulated by another person in a very deep and tragic way. Or perhaps that person has fallen into a trap of sin and he is struggling to get out of, but is not fueled by entitlement.

    With everything I’ve shared about my ex, I still hesitate to call her an “abuser”. It’s too hard for me to look at the woman I shared my life with for so many years and believe in my heart that her core was empty of all love for me (even though her actions demonstrate that to be true). I still hold out hope for her that she acted like an abuser, but was not an abuser at the core. I’m just not emotionally at a place to label her that way. Perhaps that makes little sense, but I think it’s part of the healing process.

    But I do think that a person who only seeks to use others and has no regard for anything but themselves is a “true abuser” and cannot be a Christian, however much he or she may look like one on the outside.

  124. ✿*´¨)
    ¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
    (¸.•´ (¸.•`  ¤ “”Blue Skies” ?”*´¨)

    ╔═══╗ ♪
    ║███║ ♫
    ║ (●) ♫ ║
    ╚═══╝♪♪♪♫♪

    HowDee,

    …♪♫♪hum, hum, hum-hum…I saw a clearing in the church merkey clouds today,

    Much to my surprise, Yay!

    The winds of change are blowing love my way,
    Sure as the Son is risen!

    You know I can’t hold it back,
    (I can’t hold it back)
    No I can’t hold it back
    (I can’t hold it back)
    Nothin’ but blue skies now
    And long-awaited days
    To know how You love me, Jesus, ooh
    Has helped me change my ways…

    Watchin’ fall and winter turn to spring,
    Makes me feel so strange,
    And I can see all of the colors that your love can bring,
    You know I’m so pleased that seasons can change,

    You know I can’t hold it back, whoo!
    (I can’t hold it back)
    I can’t hold it back
    (I can’t hold it back)
    Nothin’ but blue skies now
    And long-awaited days
    To know how You love me, Jesus, ooh
    Has helped me change my ways,
    Summer sun is comin’ back to melt my troubles away,
    I’m amazed at the worries I can leave behind,

    It’s a heavenly new day!
    Everyday, everyday, I’m walkin’ in the Son Shine!
    (Nothin’ but blue skies now)
    Ooh, yeah!
    And long-awaited days
    (To know how You love me, Jesus, ooh)
    Know how you love me
    Has helped me change my ways
    (Nothin’ but blue skies now)
    Nothin’ but blue skies
    And long-awaited days
    (To know how You love me, ooh)
    Has helped me change my ways,
    Walkin’ in the sunshine
    Oh, oh, oooh
    Long-awaited days…
    In da blue skies, baby!

    Stormy, You gotz itz, Baby!

    (grin)

    hahahahahaha

    S “㋡”py

  125. dee wrote:

    New post, or should I say lecture,  by Ray Ortlund link
    Everyone wants the righteousness of God.  No one desires misery.  Everyone wants the right outcomes that are truly of God.

    How do we get there?

    Not by our angry demandingness.  If our cause really is of God, he will watch over it.  We can trust him for that.  Our part is to be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger.

    To reap an abundant harvest of righteousness, the really satisfying righteousness that is of God, the way forward is not to demand, to pressure, to embarrass, but to sow peace, shalom, wholeness, humaneness.  

    Translation: Shhhhh-or else you are not “godly” like “they” are. Be peaceful, serene, tranquil…just leave us the heck alone.

    Whatever was Jesus thinking turning over tables?

    Whatever was Paul thinking calling out publicly Alexander the Coppersmith? How about John calling out Diatrophies?

    Justice- the Christian God and his apostles believe in justice. And the Christian God believes in opposing injustice- in public.

    At the very least, this post can be linked back to every time anyone at TGC has a negative thing to say about anyone?

  126. @ Sopwith:

    Ops! Disclaimer:

    FYI: * “Blue Skies” Lyrics in above comment, written by BRYAN DUNCAN/VERTELNEY © Sony/ATV Music Publishing LLC (lyrics reflect parody adaptation, disclaimer: U.S. Title 17 infringement unintended.)

    Blue Skyz…

    (grin)

    :~)

  127. @ stormy:

    can’t hold it back, can’t hold it back…

    I likez da sound of it!

    Sweet Jesus!

    Blue Skyz, Blue Skyz!

    hum, hum, hum…

    ;~)

  128. “It’s really quite abusive and insulting, imo. He throws out something to evoke an emotional response so we would immediately feel guilty. Ortlund must be used to his congregants accepting such shallow reasoning but the fact is Ortlund thinks that should be good enough for us. Nice try, though.”

    Never ever forget that pastors have had years of on the spot illustrations. Most of them search for them to go in sermons. A ready made short story to illustrate their point. Evokes emotion. Anyone remember when Paige Patterson said that a woman came to him telling him her husband was abusing her? He said he told her to go home and pray for him by his bed at night. He said that then her husband came to church and was saved. See, her praying did it!

    Problem is, this made the rounds and people started asking for proof. But no proof because it was “private”.

    So, the story for abused women? Pray harder and if he keeps hitting you, it is YOUR fault. For some reason God is not hearing your prayers.

    I do not believe Ortlunds story for one minute. Why? Because I spent too many years in the mega industrial complex and know how these illustrations come about.

  129. “I truly don’t think the occupation of the Holy Spirit (oil) necessarily neutralizes the vinegary parts of a person’s life cocktail. Perhaps this does happen for some people, in different ways and in different measure. But these things seem to defy being quantified/qualified/catalogued/etc. It’s loaded with variety as to how it all happens and works itself out.”

    Elastigirl, We all have our opinions about how it works and that is ok. You lost me at “life cocktail”. :o) I personally do not think the Holy Spirit is present when a predator is molesting a child over the years. I guess I am going on the example of 1 Corin 5 where Paul said about guy who was doing an “unspeakable” with another adult (not molesting a child) to be kicked out of the Body so he “could be saved”.

    If christianity is full of vinegary people molesting kids who are also saved while doing so, then we had best stay away.

  130. “Not by our angry demandingness. If our cause really is of God, he will watch over it. We can trust him for that.”

    The determinst god paradigm comes in handy at times, ya know? God gave us NO volition so we cannot pursue justice. We must let God handle it. And gee, if God does not strike them down or take away their ministry then they are innocent!

    This is mysticism/gnosticism. Comes in handy for a corrupt pastor or false teacher, doesn’t it?

    I have seen this mentioned on several survivor type blogs that God is disciplining Mahaney. I disagree. People finally spoke up and it took a long time because they were ignored so another inside person leaked a ton of documents by another inside person then the victims filed a lawsuit. People deciding and doing.

  131. True story about this obsession with “gossip”: I was once in a Bible Study where we got to the end of one of Paul’s letters where he lists various people, including negative remarks about a couple. One of the leaders raised the question of whether this was gossip, and they concluded that unless Paul had gone through the Matthew 18 “process” with each of these guys, then this part of the Epistle was sinful gossip. At this point I could keep silence no longer, and suggested that they might have a small problem with their doctrine of the Divine inspiration of scripture if they said that he was sinning when he wrote it? It took them a minute to figure that out, then there was a very abrupt change of subject!

    Oh, and BTW, these were the same people who told me that I was gossiping when I said that I was abused by my grandfather who died before I started school, and whose name none of them knew. When I said it wasn’t ‘gossip’, I was then ‘unrepentant’!
    It both fascinates and sickens me that this dynamic is the same all over the world

  132. >
    We are not to simply bandage the wounds of victims beneath the wheels of injustice, we are to drive a spoke into the wheel itself. ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer

  133. After observing this “pageant” from afar for…let us just say “awhile”…I think it is time to join the conversation. I now know how Puck feels–“Lord, what fools these mortals be”–watching the rhetorical, and administrative, acrobatics performed on the calvinista blog-scene is quite an exercise. Unfortunately, I suspect that we will hear nothing about SGM from these leaders until the lawsuit runs its full course (and that’s an optimistic prediction…). What is the legal timetable for a class action suit like this anyway?

  134. @ dee:
    dee wrote:

    New post, or should I say lecture, by Ray Ortlund link

    Everyone wants the righteousness of God. No one desires misery. Everyone wants the right outcomes that are truly of God.

    How do we get there?

    Not by our angry demandingness. If our cause really is of God, he will watch over it. We can trust him for that. Our part is to be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger.

    To reap an abundant harvest of righteousness, the really satisfying righteousness that is of God, the way forward is not to demand, to pressure, to embarrass, but to sow peace, shalom, wholeness, humaneness.

    No, Ray, actually not everyone desires the righteousness of God. There’s this thing called ego that tends to get in the way of desiring things of God. I know my ego has gotten in the way before. Is there a chance, even a tiny one that ego is at play in some of your circles?

  135. Sensible

    We are looking at the end of the year. By that time, CJ will be installed as Provost of SBTS.

  136. @ dee: Sounds all too familiar. I’ve seen journalists on major web sites claim that Joe Paterno died because he was “treated badly” by the PSU board of trustees.

    Never mind that he was already diagnosed with cancer.

  137. @ numo:
    Just watching “Ghost Hunters” investigating haunted riverboat in Loo(n)eyville. Rumor has it the former captain had heart attack, died, and is now consigned to haunting duty BECAUSE da Feds had the AUDACITY to raid his shipboard gambling establishment. Moral: never raid someone’s establishment. Someone could die!

  138. DaveAA

    I am learning so much today.

    First, there is death by church conflict.Now, death by fed inspection. 

  139. Lynne T wrote:

    True story about this obsession with “gossip”: I was once in a Bible Study where we got to the end of one of Paul’s letters where he lists various people, including negative remarks about a couple. One of the leaders raised the question of whether this was gossip, and they concluded that unless Paul had gone through the Matthew 18 “process” with each of these guys, then this part of the Epistle was sinful gossip. At this point I could keep silence no longer, and suggested that they might have a small problem with their doctrine of the Divine inspiration of scripture if they said that he was sinning when he wrote it? It took them a minute to figure that out, then there was a very abrupt change of subject!
    Oh, and BTW, these were the same people who told me that I was gossiping when I said that I was abused by my grandfather who died before I started school, and whose name none of them knew. When I said it wasn’t ‘gossip’, I was then ‘unrepentant’!
    It both fascinates and sickens me that this dynamic is the same all over the world

    That is one for the books, for sure. Paul gossiping under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Quite amazing they couldn’t find it within themselves to question their definition of gossip. Shaking my head here.

  140. dee wrote:

    Sensible
    We are looking at the end of the year. By that time, CJ will be installed as Provost of SBTS.

    How convenient for CJ…what I find disturbing about this whole debacle is, not merely the support that the establishment lends to CJ and company (it is regrettable but not surprising), but the unwavering devotion of a large student base, both high school and undergrad, to the ideals of the broken system. And we’re supposed to be the cynical, easily jaded ones…

  141. @ Lynne:

    “I was once in a Bible Study where we got to the end of one of Paul’s letters where he lists various people, including negative remarks about a couple. One of the leaders raised the question of whether this was gossip, and they concluded that unless Paul had gone through the Matthew 18 ‘process’ with each of these guys, then this part of the Epistle was sinful gossip. ”

    ?????????????

    Ever notice how none of these people ever actually define “gossip” but then throw around the term like it is an obvious, self-explanatory sin like witchcraft or adultery (note: it isn’t)? And they never pull out the actual Greek in those passages. I’m thinking esp. of the one where it says “slanderers” are to be put out of the church, along with drunks, swindlers, etc. You can be excommunicated for chitchat, ladies! Hush up!

    Except the Greek word in that passage is better translated “railer” – as in verbal abuser. (Kind of like an abusive husband?) It has nothing to do with gossip at all in the original language. Whoopsies.

    (I haven’t dug into this super-extensively yet, but from my perusal of an online Greek dictionary (Liddell & Scott), what appears to be the main Greek word for “gossip” doesn’t even appear in the Bible. Don’t know what that means or if it even means anything.)

  142. @ dee:

    Slightly off topic. We were at church once when dozens of Feds showed up outside. They were raiding the bar next door, not us– phew!! but it was unnerving. http://www.nytimes.com/1991/08/20/us/gambling-raid-angers-mining-town.html
    Highlight from the article:
    “Federal officials say the focus of the raid was not so much the machines as the local authorities who had allowed them to flourish.”
    Eventually the Sheriff put on trial for allowing all the illegal gambling. He was found not guilty. Like many Sheriffs before him he not only fostered gambling but prostitution.

  143. Numo

    Oh my goodness. So, if one kills someone by upsetting them, they are consigned to ghostiness, That should raise the fears of all good people everywhere. 

  144. Marge

    Looks like there may be two more churches leaving SGM-am I getting my numebrs correct? Will that take it up to 17 or 18?

    I wonder if Ray Ortlund would think that such mass desertions of an organization could cause mulitple deaths in the near future? Is anyone keeping watch over Mahaney? Has GirlTalk started an online business for digital CPR? Has the 5 month countdown begun? Perhaps he should wear a holter monitor?

    I have a new business proposal-Heavenly Holter Monitors. Has your church got you down? Are the deaconesses miffed off at you removing their annual Scripture reading marathon in the pulpit? Are multiple churches leaving your organization? Getting sued from all sides? Reports of death within 5 months of the onset of such stress are not uncommon. Wear one of these monitors and we will keep watch over the old ticker 24/7. Fool the Grim Reaper with Heavenly Holter Monitors.

  145. “We are looking at the end of the year. By that time, CJ will be installed as Provost of SBTS”

    With his honorary PhD? :o)

  146. Hey, that whole fear-based “if you continue to speak out or pursue justice, so-and-so will DIE!” cry sounds very familiar!

    There is a certain person with a heart problem, and it is insinuated that my speaking out has caused, or at least worsened the problem. And so I had better stop being so SELF-CENTERED and just keep my mouth SHUT (as if that will ever happen) because if poor unrepentant abuser dies, it will be MY FAULT! It is my responsibility to keep his stress down, to keep him alive. It’s too late to report him, but how dare I so much as accuse him? It’s taken such a toll, has it?

    Nevermind my own heart (broken) and stress (anxiety). And nevermind the fact that even though it is not my intention to help him, the truth sets people free! No, the abusers and those who support them come first, then and now, with special consideration to all glorious and revered Christian leaders, of course. The focus must be on them, their feelings the primary concern, always and forevermore.

  147. “With his honorary PhD?”
    Hmmm…so if I form a cult, I do not have to write a dissertation. That merits consideration 😉

  148. @ dee:
    I think the Indiana church makes 17. If Cleveland leaves (which looks likely) that’ll make 18. It’s hard to keep track.

  149. @ Jeff S:

    “…I would say the following statement is true (but I will qualify meanings): all abusers are not true Christians.

    Now here the key definition is the word “abuser”. The way I mean the term here is a person who is dominated by a sense of entitlement that they can use and hurt others for their own wants and desires…”
    ***********

    Hi, Jeff S.

    Thanks for the interaction. Yes, tricky, indeed.

    I think I agree with your statements. Such people surely have serious psychological problems — perhaps such problems make it near impossible to rationally seek God and find Him.

    Your other comments make perfect sense. People are so darn complex. Good intentions and sincere feeling (love, appreciation) can get thwarted & twisted by other powerful drives, like depression.

    You are a very good person.

  150. @ dee:
    Yes, I think Diane’s comment should be sent to Ortlund; with her permission , of course. It reveals the absurdity of his position if you remain consistent with it. I notice Ortlund tends to respond. Unfortunately, it will probably be like one of his responses to me: “Well, of course, unfortunately pastors sometimes sin, and we must take that into account and respond in a gospel…zzzzzzzzzzzz.” But her comment is more forceful, so he might actually say something.

    I was once in a situation where I was confronted with the 11th Commandment: “Thou shalt not discuss the transgressions of leaders, even after receiving no response from them after confronting them.” The verses that I always think of in that situation are: “They have treated my people’s brokenness superficially, claiming: ‘Peace, peace,’ when there is no peace. Were they ashamed when they acted so abhorrently? They weren’t at all ashamed. They can no longer feel humiliation.
    Therefore, they will fall among the fallen. When I punish them, they will collapse,
    says the Lord.” (Jer 6:14-15) Amazing how appropriate they are.

  151. @ Eagle:
    That one should be reprinted over and over. Great humor. Gave me a belly laugh this morning.

  152. Eagle wrote:

    What’s the Biblical way to do CPR in an emergency? Is the man who is having a heart attack from gossip give instructions to his wife on how to do CPR? Does the Bible address this issue? What happens if the man’s wife is not there? Can another woman give CPR or does she need permission from her husband? If the woman is single is she going to tempt the man having a heart attack? I imagine you don’t want to contribute to his lust in a medical crisis! If no women are around then what? Does a men to man CPR situation contribute to homosexual lust? Or if God orchestrated the medical crisis (per Piper’s theology) are people interfering with God’s sovereignty.
    PLEASE….tell me!

    And before some medical emergency happens where I am so I know what to do!

  153. In SGM they controlled the terms of the conversation. They’re the ones that put it out there that discussing their lives or leadership skills was gossip. They gave themselves permission to decide the rules and members were held to a higher standard. Leadership exonerated themselves from any guilt associated with their discussion of everything having to do with your life, often drawing conclusions or passing judgments about you without your involvement, by calling their gossiping and slander “caring for your souls.” It was fine for them to “watch over” every aspect of your life, no problem, but if you dared do the same it was “sinful.” Definitely a huge issue. Spiritually very abusive. Hypicrites. And this contines to be their stance: we are the sinners. And Ray Orland tries to step in and define the parameters which us survivors know is one of SGMs biggest tricks: control you with threats of sin. Well guess what? The tables have turned. Now were watching over their souls and reporting back what we see at work in their souls. We’re the ones sharing the observations. Its only fair they listen. If you dish it out, they should swal There must be a reason its coming back at them in DROVES.

  154. DaveAA

    Corruption in positions of power is inevitable. And I don’t mean only secular organizations! What a morning at church.

  155. Oasis

    The Ortlund thing is such a crock. It shows the “faith” of these men. Look at the history of the faith. Men and women have been tortured and put into prison for their faith. Countless numbers marched, with their head high, singing hymns into the Colisuem. There were not mass haert attacks while facing the lions.Look at Dabiel and his friends. Look at the martyrdom of the apostles.

    Ortlund professes a weak, ineffectual faith if a church conflict causes parents to DIE. Imagine a real persecution. Oh yeah, and out in the secualr world, people get fired all the time for no reason. It’s only soome pastors who think they should be shielded from pain.That is why some pastors have bodyguards. I just read where one pastor called his elder his “guard dog.” Good night!

  156. Jeff B

    Those Jeremiah 6:14-15 verse should be engraved on the wall of every church.

    They have treated my people’s brokenness superficially, claiming: ‘Peace, peace,’ when there is no peace. Were they ashamed when they acted so abhorrently? They weren’t at all ashamed. They can no longer feel humiliation.Therefore, they will fall among the fallen. When I punish them, they will collapse,says the Lord

  157. @ dee:
    Several of us were nearly consigned to ghostliness by the stress of seeing the big yellow FBI lettering on their jackets! Seriously, I suffered stress yesterday when Ortlund deleted Patti’s (good) response to his Death by Gossip story and immediately closed comments.

  158. Eagle/56 years

    So many questions on CPR and how to respond in a gospel gender fashion. For example, if a pastor collapses behind the pulpit, can a woman administer CPR. It is also important to note that, while administering mouth to mouth, air passes by her vocal chords meaning there is a possibility of sound being emitted from her while behind the pulpit. Also, if she wore a V neck shirt that day, there is a possibilty of immodesty while bent over the victim. Of course, there is the most concerning issue of all. What do we do with “Touch not the Lord’s annointed?”

  159. Evie

    I got it. Using Apostle CJ’s thinking i haev the new motto for TWW  ” Caring for the souls of today’s pastors.” I have been called and gifted!

  160. Interesting…John Piper thinks that a woman trained in martial arts should “step aside” when attacked so an untrained man could take the lead. Would he also say that a woman trained in CPR and first response should “step aside” to let an untrained male “lead” in an emergency situation??

  161. Kristen

    If the man was a pastor, he would allow the woman to proceed since he could intercede with heaven on her behalf. Anyone other than a pastor should die rather than mix up gender responsibility.

  162. deeI grant you and all the rest of us permission to be “watching over” the lives of these supposed spiritual leaders. We are hereby released from any sense of guilt and shame that SGM (and friends) attach to us as we serve these people and watch their lives. We have read how CJ & Caroly have always reacted negatively to anyone keeping watch over them; shielding themselves from scrutiny by claiming they had the exclusive power to scrutinize and the rights to pass judgment and to degift others. We have that power and so now we are keeping watch over their souls and the scrutiny is going to continue. We are saying they should be degifted on the basis of the same standards they used against others. But obviously they live in a cult and dont believe in the Lordship of Jesus Christ. They are in denial of the principles that regulate the Kingdom. We all have the same rights and responsibilities to be “watching over their souls.”

    SGMs initial response to the lawsuit in which they attempted to exonerate themselves from responsibility (again by attempting to control the terms of the conversation) by claiming people voluntarily went to for counsel was akin to saying, “Am I my brother’s keeper?” We know full well that that is EXACTLY the way they established themselves in the minds of SGM members – as those invested with the task of “keeping” watch over the brotherhood of the saints. That is what they REPEATEDLY said regarding their role in members lives. If that doesnt unmask the organization as a cult vs a true church then I dont know what does. Those people are blood-suckers and not pastors. Hirelings and not healers. Troublemakers and not peacemakers.

    So yes this is your calling Dee! You are Knightess of the Realm of keeping watch over the souls of these leaders, the ones who think its their job to be doing that to everyone else. The watchers are being WATCHED. And they dont like it much do they? Continuing to hide behind their invisible shields, acting like martyrs, making us all sick when we hear them use the name of our beloved Savior in vain.

    Tough luck to them. We’re not backing down. They are decreasing. Where are your points on the board Mr. Clean? Haha guess he assumes having Piper speak gives him game.

    Tick tick tick. Time to clear off the field Mahaney. Be humble. Admit defeat. The longer you stand there the more obvious your arrogance and unentreatibility becomes. And bringing Piper onto the field with 2 seconds left in the game should gave been saved as entertainment for the half-time arm waving show. Hilarious! But it will do nothing for the end game.

    “They pull and drag others down as they go. They do not repent of their sin.” Evie

  163. dee wrote:

    So many questions on CPR and how to respond in a gospel gender fashion. For example, if a pastor collapses behind the pulpit, can a woman administer CPR. It is also important to note that, while administering mouth to mouth, air passes by her vocal chords meaning there is a possibility of sound being emitted from her while behind the pulpit. Also, if she wore a V neck shirt that day, there is a possibilty of immodesty while bent over the victim.

    And how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
    “DIE, HERETIC!!!!”

  164. Diane wrote:

    I remember thinking how odd it was to read that…it still is incredible. NOTHING-no grievance–no matter how horrendous– is worth disturbing the “blood bought peace” in churches where people can “meet Christ”.

    NOTHING – no grievance – no matter how horrendous – is worth disturbing the winning record at Penn State where the football team trains under Joe Paterno and Jerry Sandusky…

  165. Eagle wrote:

    It puts a whole new spin on what Piper teaches about cancer. The survival rate for those who have prostate cancer in whites is 99.3% for males from 2002 – 2008. That is the cancer Piper had. Now if you compare it among other cancers in the same time range for males.

    As someone with an enlarged prostate whose PSA levels are creeping up, all I can say is if you get cancer, let it be prostate or basal-cell skin cancer (whose rates are even better).

    And Eagle, that meant your mother was the one-in-twenty who lived through pancreatic. (Three times as deadly as lung cancer!) Re the Piper book, ever notice it’s those who are in NO danger whatsoever from what you have who are SO Certain THEY know what YOU Should Do?

  166. Trina wrote:

    That is why there are many athiests and non-Christians who have the most amazing loving hearts and humanitarian efforts towards others. Their respect and love for humanity exists apart from their acceptance of some type of doctrine or belief.

    Sounds like Romans chap. 2 to me. But then again, in order to preserve accepted doctrine, you have to find a way to spin Romans 2, so that they burn in hell anyway because they “don’t know Jesus”.

  167. @ dee:
    Funny. I have a feeling that Piper, and some of the others, would love to spend their remaining years writing a Reformed Talmud that details the proper way to behave in virtually any situation. I’ve said before that Piper, in particular, seems to believe that he owes the world his opinion on everything.

  168. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    more on this “blood bought peace” idea….

    I never thought that what Jesus did on the cross and then coming back to life brought peace horizontally… but rather vertically — between GOD and us. Not between us and us.

    Am I right??

  169. Kristin wrote:

    Interesting…John Piper thinks that a woman trained in martial arts should “step aside” when attacked so an untrained man could take the lead. Would he also say that a woman trained in CPR and first response should “step aside” to let an untrained male “lead” in an emergency situation??

    This reminds me of Wayne Grudem’s ridiculous rules for women and what they can and cannot do.

    I recently attempted to listen to an audio by D.A. Carson promoted by CBMW. Once again, I was left more confused than ever. I’m amazed at what these guys are trying to tell us women what we are supposed to be doing and how the role that they assign for us, with their interpretation of scripture, benefits us. Their poor Bibles are having to do some far-out contortions to fit these mens’ words.

  170. You people are worse than the scribes! There is no love or forgiveness here… Spend some time with Jesus and repent of your hard hearts, you so called defenders of truth.

  171. Tony Clifton,

    Shame on you! Where is your compassion for the victims of the SGM machine? Those in your camp are the true Pharisees. I pray your heart of stone will one day become a heart of flesh.

    Hey everybody,

    Don't forget to tune in to Vince Coakley's first broadcast.  Here the info:

    SGM Detox premieres Saturday February 16th at 11:00 am

    You can listen: -live at http://www.vincecoakley.com or http://www.blogtalkradio.com/vincecoakley

    -on your Android phone with the "Vince Coakley" app

    -on your non-Android phone by calling 805 243 1335

  172. Tony Clifton wrote:

    You people are worse than the scribes! There is no love or forgiveness here… Spend some time with Jesus and repent of your hard hearts, you so called defenders of truth.

    Troll.

  173. "You people are worse than the scribes! There is no love or forgiveness here… Spend some time with Jesus and repent of your hard hearts, you so called defenders of truth." Tony,

    My guess is that sort of uninformed outburst actually works where you come from or you would not bother. Where is your "heart" for a young girl raped by her father and the SGM pastor tells the mom to put a lock on the inside of the door she he cannot rape her again and that the mom should give him more sex so he won't be tempted but he can stay in the house as the "head" of the family?

    Where is your heart on that one? Where is your "heart" for a 3 year old made by SGM pastors to face her molester and forgive him because he said "sorry"? No police called because the church can handle it.

    I know, I know, you think these few examples out of many are of Christ and were handled well by SGM. We worry about all non thinking folks like you out there who elevate and follow man instead of Christ.

    We stand for the victims of Mahaney's long time shepherding cult. And we are very concerned for your non thinking stance and your hard heart. I hope that you will get a new heart of compassion for those who have been wronged by the wolves and charlatans you defend.

  174. "Interesting…John Piper thinks that a woman trained in martial arts should “step aside” when attacked so an untrained man could take the lead. Would he also say that a woman trained in CPR and first response should “step aside” to let an untrained male “lead” in an emergency situation?? "

    Maybe we should ask Ray Ortlund if the man who needs CPR is a pastor grieving? Maybe he can ask for special dispensation from Piper for us to attend to his CPR needs? :o)

    Seriously, Piper is a nutcase. You see how confusing his teaching becomes? Some folks blow it off as "Oh he preaches the true Gospel, though" but he doesn't. He is all over the place if folks are really paying attention and he has elevated the gender roles stuff to salvic status. That is when you know for a fact they are false teachers.

    The main thing that freaks me out is how few people are really analyzing Piper in the cold light of day and not coming away shaking their heads. People will defend him to the death. It is eerie.

  175. “Those Jeremiah 6:14-15 verse should be engraved on the wall of every church.

    They have treated my people’s brokenness superficially, claiming: ‘Peace, peace,’ when there is no peace. Were they ashamed when they acted so abhorrently? They weren’t at all ashamed. They can no longer feel humiliation.Therefore, they will fall among the fallen. When I punish them, they will collapse,says the Lord”

    For those who enjoy such parallels, reading about the priests in the OT is a wake up call as to what is going on today with many pastors who love their position, power and authority and then we should listen to every word they say. The parallels are frightening and very interesting what God has to say to them. Many are not making the connection that it is the same behavior. And God does not like it.

  176. Yo Tony

    So, when are your buddies going to repent. And, of course, your ho-hum defense of “whatever” does not include any proof of anything that we have said that is not true.There is a reason for that. You have not looked into it yourself and have offered no proof.

    Your rant is totally ineffective and merely serves to make people more determined to fight against the horrors of child absues and child sexual abuse in the church. Thank you for the inspiration to “carry on.”

  177. Great show. Blog radio is one more way that the average person can have a voice. No longer will churches be able to control the microphone. It is a new era of open communication.

     

  178. anon1

    Awesome answer to Tony.

    “My guess is that sort of uninformed outburst actually works where you come from or you would not bother. Where is your “heart” for a young girl raped by her father and the SGM pastor tells the mom to put a lock on the inside of the door she he cannot rape her again and that the mom should give him more sex so he won’t be tempted but he can stay in the house as the “head” of the family?”

    They can no longer hide behind the “trust me, I’m a pastor” nonsense.These old ways of doing things would be  rather laughable if they were not heaping coals on the heads of victims. Jesus did not like those who hurt the vulnerable and had some pretty strong words for them-abyss type stuff.

  179. @ dee:

    Great discussion on that show. I appreciate Stephen Crosby’s honesty. From his post of Feb. 9th, entitled “Spiritual Abuse: It Takes Two to Tango”:

    “I have dealt with literally hundreds of people who have been legitimately abused in unhealthy church environments. I am very sympathetic to their pain and have my own hair-curling horror stories I could tell of the things that have been done to me, my wife, and my children by “leaders” in the name of Jesus. I GET IT.

    However, I’ve noticed a difference between those who are restored to spiritual health quickly, and those who remain in reactionary woundedness for years or decades. Those who recover quickly admit that there was something broken or unwhole in themselves that was a “hook” for controllers and abusers to play on. They do not just blame the perpetrators of the injustice against them. Healthy, whole, functional, adults–especially fully resourced believers (2 Pet. 1:3)–are not easy to control and abuse.

    As legitimate as the mistreatment may have been, somewhere the abused individuals (assuming adults–not children or minors) failed to exercise their God-given abilities to protect themselves. God has given every mentally whole adult the “power of no” to protect ourselves. How much more so believers who have the indwelling Spirit? The trouble is, we are often not whole and we often ignore the Spirit’s prompting because of the emotional cost of following what He says to us. Being Spirit-led takes more courage than people normally think, but then again, courage is one of the first evidences of being a regenerated, Spirit-filled, human being (Acts 1-4).”

  180. Sad

    You made a few valid points. But, it is important to note that the SGM lawsuit is dealing with child sexual abuse. You most likely have looked at the stats of this horrifc crime. The long term rates of substance abuses, sexual identity problems, suicides and many, many other problems are significant. There are similar problems with domestic violence.

    I would be cautious in saying someone is ignoring the indwelling Spirit when they get invovled with an abusive church. Satan is a great deceiver and has deceived those in the pulpits as well. And today’s dead silence on the part of TGC leaders in regards to the myriad of problems in SGM, might seem to indicate that many, many people are ignoring the indwelling spirit.

    Ray Ortlund’s stupid statement on death being caused by an unfair church conflict also indicates a lack of spiritual insight.If pastors can be messed up, so can the rest of us.

    Have you read the book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse?  It is a most helpful introduction to this problem and is an easy read.

  181. YES! You can’t put new wine in old wine skins. Real grace and love, not just the talk of it, will burst the legalistic, sin-conscious, abusive control tactics of church organizations like SGM@ dee:

  182. @ Sad:

    “…God has given every mentally whole adult the “power of no” to protect ourselves. How much more so believers who have the indwelling Spirit? The trouble is, we are often not whole and we often ignore the Spirit’s prompting because of the emotional cost of following what He says to us.”
    ********************

    a little too simply put. I suspect the speaker understands this all more deeply than this comment reflects.

    People can ignore the Spirit’s prompting because “church” can be the most mentally/emotionally confusing place on earth.

    Because “pastors” with influence and persuasion imply with deft wording & expression that to protect yourself is to be self-centered, lazy, lacking in conviction, demonstrate poor character, to be a quitter, a disappointment to them after all they’ve done for you, to hurt them deeply on a personal level, to be a 2nd rate inferior christian, and much more.

    Because such “pastors” convey and demonstrate their knowledge & spirituality in such an elite way, & the natural conclusion is to doubt one’s own spirituality in comparison.

    The “power of no” doesn’t stand a chance.

  183. @ elastigirl:Very well stated! (Been there and done that myself…)

    It can be next to impossible to say “no” in such situations – my own experience was one of being steamrollered when raising objections to highly questionable doctrine and actions. Not that I was a whistleblower by any means – just someone asking questions! I had no idea – in at least one case – that questions would be perceived as threatening.

    Was I ever wrong.

  184. Sad, you are quoting this publicly for a reason.

    This business of focusing in the failures of the victim is tragic. Is there something a victim could have done better? Probably, but that is something to work out on a case by case basis in individual therapy, not something to make a public principal out of. All these statements will do to a victim wii reads them is crush them and bring them I despair, no matter who originated them.

    The elders at my church told me that boundaries are not biblical. Now fortunately I got away from there, but not before taking on a lot of guilt. And now I should feel guilt for NOT enforcing my boundaries quickly enough? Thanks but no thanks. I was not the cause of the evil done to me, though I am aware of issues that I need to work on (thanks to my therapist) to protect myself in the future.

    Bring up failings in victims is unhelpful and impedes that process of healing unless it is done by someone initiate involved with the victim who the victim can trust. In most cases that victim has already taken on loads and loads of blame- they already believe they were at fault. All this kind of thing does is bring them back to that place and validate the abuser that he or she is not resposible (because however it is meant, that is how it will be taken).

  185. @ Jeff S:

    I am quoting it because it was from the speaker on the radio show that has just been talked about and commended, and it pointedly clarified something that has always bothered me about survivor blogs…they have a habit of conflating spiritual abuse and child sexual abuse. In that article, Stephen Crosby, is quite clear that he holds adults responsible for their spiritual formation…and is scrupulous to point out that he does not mean CHILDREN.

  186. Sad –

    I sent that article to Dee last week. I had some concerns about the article as it didn’t break out different kinds of abuse, nor criminal abuse, nor a person being raised in a tighly controlled environment for their entire life. It didn’t address the many “varied” areas of abuse or how this can affect a person. I actually don’t think that article is appropriate for any kind of criminal abuse or for people “just” leaving a situation of spiritual abuse or abandonment.

    Did you have a certain reason for linking to that article? If so, what is your point?

    People can learn to say “No.” There are consequences for saying “no” though. When the consequences come from a spiritual leader, people can be devastated. Should the “leader” respond with consequences when people say “no?” Of course not, but abusive ones do. Should people be so tied to what “leader” thinks that the consequense devastates them? No. They should be secure in their walk with the Lord (depending on their spiritual maturity). Here is the kicker, the spiritual leader should be one of the people helping members to become spiritually mature — not being immature himself when things don’t go as planned or hoped. It is difficult when you are shunned by a leader because you don’t feel called to do something he asked, and this after years of service, leaving your family, and moving across the country.

    There is no one-size-fits-all answer for what people experience. I don’t think that article was meant to be such an answer.

  187. Sad

    I’ll throw in one more area to consider since it involves adults and that is domestic abuse. I will not dump a bunch of factoids on you except to say “google” it.

    As for spiritual abuse, I might suggest looking at things like PTSD, Stockholm syndrome, brainwashing, etc. Also, each should be treated on a case by case basis. To combine spiritual abuse with the word “conflate” is a generalization. There are many trained people in the mental health arena who would speak to this issue. 

    To put it another way-let’s say you got diabetes. The typical response for an adult in this position is to say they should diet and exercise and hand them a pill. But, diabetese exhibits itself in many ways. So, my husband, who was diagnosed with diabetes this year is both thin and exercises every, single day. He practices what he preaches and a genetic predisposition to diabetes was discoverd. So, no matter how much he dieted and exercised, he could not prevent its onset.  He needs trials with several drugs and is still in the process of finding the right combination. The same goes for each person and their situations.

    I am sorry that you are bothered by survivors blogs and am grateful that you are spiritually healthy and can tell others what that looks like.

     

  188. Sad wrote:

    @ Jeff S:
    I am quoting it because it was from the speaker on the radio show that has just been talked about and commended, and it pointedly clarified something that has always bothered me about survivor blogs…they have a habit of conflating spiritual abuse and child sexual abuse. In that article, Stephen Crosby, is quite clear that he holds adults responsible for their spiritual formation…and is scrupulous to point out that he does not mean CHILDREN.

    Sad, quite frankly I don’t care whether the issue is an adult or child as a victim. Discussing the sin or weaknesses of a victim (other than within a trusted relationship where permission for this kind of counsel has been given by the victim) is harmful and disgusting to me.

  189. @ Jeff S: Yes indeed, Jeff S!

    Thanks for your advocacy; we need more folks like you (and Dee and Deb) out here.

    Sad, we all knew you were quoting someone else in order to try and add legitimacy to your pov. That doesn’t alter what you were doing with that quote and other comments that are in your own words.

  190. Jeff S

    I believe that the truly spiritually healthy do not condemn but love and support. “Love” is being redefined by Calvinistas to mean being doctrinally pure bu subscribing to their doctrines and disciplines.

  191. @ dee:
    Indeed.

    You know, the ironic thing is that the reason I go to the therapist I do is that he was unafraid to tell a room full of people who were dealing with emotional disorders that they would not heal until they took responsibility for their healing. So I do think there is a place for challenging hurting people- but he was also careful to point out that taking responsibility wasn’t the same as accepting blame, and often it wasn’t fair. The other thing is, this was a room full of people who were there in order to work on their problems, not unsolicited advice.

    And my therapist challenges me. He shows me things that I have done to allow the pain into my life that I have. But he didn’t start talking to me about this stuff until we built a trusted relationship and he knew I was ready to hear it.

    And you are exactly right about “love”. We redefine it to mean something else that bears no resemblance of love. Sad that my secular therapist shows more compassion and mercy than my pastors did (my previcous pastors- my current pastor is very much on the same wavelength as my therapist- praise God!)

  192. dee wrote:

    To combine spiritual abuse with the word “conflate” is a generalization.

    How is this a generalization? What I am saying is that many times I see the concepts of spiritual abuse and child sexual abuse used almost interchangeably (conflated). This is intellectually dishonest and manipulative. NOBODY can ever, EVER say that a child is responsible for reprehensible things done to them or expect a child to have any power to stop it.

    What I agree with is what Stephen Crosby said in his article, that people who have been the victim of false teaching and abuse by a pastor have two paths to healing…and one is preferable and much healthier than the other. What I do not see addressed here is that there is also a very important third party at work in this process of extrication and healing, and He is it seems, most times not even mentioned. As though spiritual growth and formation, sanctification if you will, is a purely human endeavor.

    As for a loving response, please take the log out of your own collective eyes….I would like to ask where in Scripture that schadenfreude is acceptable behavior? It certainly is in full force here. And, despite the fact that your very own rules of the road say that name calling is supposed to be eschewed it’s a sadly common occurrence here.

  193. @ Sad:
    Sad, please cite an example of delighting in the misfortune of others. If you mean delighting in justice being done, there are plenty of scriptures for that.

    “NOBODY can ever, EVER say that a child is responsible for reprehensible things done to them or expect a child to have any power to stop it.”

    This statment makes my heart hurt- the clear implication is that you believe adults can be responsible for reprehensible things done to them.

  194. @ Jeff S:

    Jeff, I am sorry but there is no fruit to pointing all of the times here where people are rubbing their hands with glee at the hoped-for, impending demise of whoever the target du jour is.

    As for justice, I beg the Lord for mercy not justice; because to get what I truly deserve from God would be catastrophic and devastating.

  195. @ Sad:
    So, you don’t like survivor blogs, and you clearly don’t like people challenging your views. Why, then, are you posting here?

  196. @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    I have no problem with honest challenges to my views. In fact, they are important because they help solidify why one believes what one does. Twisting words and misquoting and ascribing motives is not honest debate, though.

  197. Sad, how many times does the Lord in scripture command us to do justice? Do you want to count? Yes, we are all condemned before God because all have fallen short; however, that’s not the sense in which we are talking about justice. We are talking abiut justice as how we treat people as image bearers of God. We are responsible to elevate the oppressed and punish the wicked- not doing so is a violation of scripture.

    Do you really think God calls his people to do justice over a hundred times in scripture only to have it ignored?

  198. I also didn’t ask for all of the times- I wanted a single example of rejoicing in the misfortune of others (but not justice).

    Ok, I’ll admit you may be able to find some snarky remarks among some of the comments- but in general it is not the tone. I see a lot more rejoicing of justice than I do rejoicing over misfortune. I absolutely CAN challenge you to find a single comment I’ve made that rejoices in the misfortune of others.

  199. Sad wrote:

    @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    Twisting words and misquoting and ascribing motives is not honest debate, though.

    You haven’t really explained, or given examples, as to how this was done to you. If you were misunderstood, please, clarify for us.

  200. @ dee:

    Dee, I am sorry about your husband’s diagnosis. Have you read either of Dr. Richard Bernstein’s books on Diabetes? He is nearly 80, a Type I diabetic since the age of 11, and has none of the usual complications of an elderly diabetic. He reversed his CAD, reversed his diabetic neuropathy, and was the one who pioneered home glucose testing many years ago. His main point is that for a diabetic, the carbohydrate intake needs to be kept around 30 grams a day. This is contrary to the ADA and he has been fighting them his whole career! I believe you would like him 🙂

  201. Sad, actually I’ll settle for what you think is an example of “misfortune”.

    Do you think the SGM lawsuit is a “misfortune”?

  202. Sad

    At least we allow you to chastise us as much as you want here and do not remove your comments like some of the guys at TGC. And then there are those who do not allow comments like John Piper and CJ Mahaney. We can take it! Bring it on!

    Did you know that we have a published list of words that we have been called? I really like “Philistines” and “O Glorious Wenches.” I am still waiting to be called an “Amalekite” and no one has taken it upon themselves to help me out. Ingrates!

    Love the “schadenfreude” word. We wrote a post using that once and we thought it made us sound rather clever. Now, my husband and I are off to Ruth’s Chris to down a steak and a glass of wine because my mom gave us a gift certificate. If you think about it, such a meal has the elements of schadenfreude as well.

  203. “As though spiritual growth and formation, sanctification if you will, is a purely human endeavor.”

    No one ever said it was. This tells me a lot. Santification is a mixed endeavor between the HS and the redeemed man. It is not simply waiting around for God to do something. It is putting on the new man (as outlined in Scripture) and taking off, putting aside, the old man. So, you don’t think people here are praying about any of this then? That is what your statement implies.

    “schadenfreude” — really!?!? (citations would be helpful) Enjoying other’s misfortunes?

  204. @ Jeff & Sad:

    I think I would pinpoint the difference between rejoicing in justice and rejoicing in misfortune on whether the thing being rejoiced over is a consequence of the person’s crime, sin, etc., or whether it is just gratuitous. For instance, if C. J Mahaney enabled and/or turned a blind eye to child abuse, and he goes to jail for it, that would be a just consequence of his action and it would be perfectly acceptable (in my view, and it seems Jeff’s, though maybe Sad wouldn’t agree) to rejoice that justice has been done. However, if C. J. Mahaney’s child was killed in a car accident, it would NOT be acceptable to say things like, “Good, now he gets to know what pain feels like,” etc. That would just be cruel and yes, it would be sinful.

    I see mercy and justice both commended in the Bible…it’s good to rejoice over both. And it really doesn’t qualify as a misfortune if you commit a crime and receive the just legal punishment for it. Calling a justly deserved consequence a “misfortune” comes awfully close to being upset not that you misbehaved, but that you got caught. Misfortune, to me at least, implies random calamity (car accidents, getting laid off, etc.), i.e. bad luck or (to use Calvinist phraseology) a “frowning” or “ill providence.”

  205. Addendum:

    And I guarantee you that NO old-school Puritan Calvinist type would EVER call getting the punishment you earned under the law a “frowning providence”!

  206. @ dee:

    If you want to be seen as better than those you are criticizing, then you need to respond to criticism directed at you in a productive way. If you don’t, if you simply compare yourself to “them” by saying “at least we are not as bad as them” without acknowledging that you might have made a mis-step here and there, you have no moral high ground whatsoever.

    Isn’t the constant complaint of folks who have exited abusive churches been that they had no voice? Well, you may not delete comments here, but it does not matter because you ignore the content, don’t answer direct questions, and resort to sarcasm. So, in essence, any one who does not mirror your views has no voice here.

  207. @ Sad:

    re: Shadenfreude

    Hi, Sad.

    I understand what you’re saying. (great word) The way I see it, it is part of a healthy mind & emotions to feel a response that joins in the collective sigh when justice is served on grave injustice. Justice and the relief it brings outward in waves is a good thing.

    I think a tendency toward religiousness starts to tamper with this good and healthy response when it prompts a person to overanalyze & begin to second-guess their motives. And what was a healthy, natural response turns into an occasion for self-condemnation, surely laced with a certain amount of anxiety. A very unnecessary fomenting of negative energy towards oneself. On the road to neuroses, masked as piety.

  208. Sad: I have to tell you, your comments on this subject are touching a nerve with me. Your initial Crosby quote struck a note because it felt like you were telling those who have been abused, that we may be doing it all wrong (by way of Crosby’s words).

    This part of your recent comment really annoyed me: What I do not see addressed here is that there is also a very important third party at work in this process of extrication and healing, and He is it seems, most times not even mentioned. As though spiritual growth and formation, sanctification if you will, is a purely human endeavor.

    It seems that you have all the answers for spiritual abuse recovery. I’ll tell you what, Sad. Why don’t you type it up Sad’s version of the Proper Way of Recovering from Spiritual Abuse and send it to me and I will post it as a blog post on my site. Or Dee/Deb – if you would like to, have at it – doesn’t matter, but I’d like the opportunity to see how Sad thinks all of us who have been spiritually abused should be recovering the “right” way.

  209. Sad, I totally agree with Crosby’s quote when it comes to ADULTS. So now, let’s walk back the cat and ask ourselves why intelligent people would allow themselves to be put in a position to be spiritually abused.

    For starters read Robert Lifton’s work on “thought reform”. When you understand the dynamics at work, it becomes more insidious than you might realize. At SGM, for example, “love bombing” was used by those I interviewed early on. From there many other tactics were used until they were immersed in the system and the “new normal” was to overlook what should have been huge red flags.

    My own position is that our socialistic form of education is a lot to blame for the explosion of spiritual abuse. We have several generations of people now who look to a leader instead of to themselves (and Christ for us believers). they are not taught to think but are indoctrinated with “information” they are tested on. Critical thinking skills are at a premium out there. There have always been followers who are not independent thinkers but they are on a grand scale now like never before.

    They go to a church and say, care for my soul, tell me what is truth. Tell me what God is like. They look to the government to care for them physically. It is a recipe for disaster. And we are seeing it played out.

    What you are seeing are the institutionalization of cult tactics. It has gotten really bad in the last 30 years and I think that is because of the church growth movement, a ridiculous culture war played out very badly by Christians and the resurgence of Calvinism. all of this had played into cult of personality Christianity. Unfortunately, instead of people asking questions upfront they have to learn the hard way these days. And it is cruel and painful.

    I hate to tell you this but many of your responses are typical reactions if you study how the institutionalized cultish ones respond to charges. Thankfully there will come a time when the silly shaming tactics don’t work a bit. However until victims are strong enough (and that can take years because the very people they should have been able to trust were wolves in sheep clothing which is why it is so insidious/deceptive) you can bet I am gonna be standing up for them.

    And nothing I wrote above applies to children who have been sexually abused. For them….it is a whole other matter.

  210. “If you want to be seen as better than those you are criticizing, then you need to respond to criticism directed at you in a productive way. If you don’t, if you simply compare yourself to “them” by saying “at least we are not as bad as them” without acknowledging that you might have made a mis-step here and there, you have no moral high ground whatsoever.”

    That is your opinion. Unless Dee and Deb are DOING what those they write about have done, how could they not be “better”? Are you really comparing the ‘words’ on this blog with coddling child molesters? That is where I see thinking skills coming at a premium. You are using the Ray Ortlund (and many others) position of shaming for WORDS on a blog instead of ACTIONS by Christian leaders. How ridiculous. Do you not see the incongruity of your position?

    “Isn’t the constant complaint of folks who have exited abusive churches been that they had no voice? Well, you may not delete comments here, but it does not matter because you ignore the content, don’t answer direct questions, and resort to sarcasm. So, in essence, any one who does not mirror your views has no voice here.”

    Boy, I spent years going round and round this sort of “logic” on blogs. Here you are interacting but not satisfied with the interaction. So now, you try to claim the “moral highground” by stating the content is ignored, there is sarcasm, etc? Seriously? What this tells me is that you expect to FRAME and direct the convo and the discussion but will only be satisfied with interaction that meets with your approval….and all on a blog that caters to victims.

    Good luck with that.

  211. Sad said "Isn’t the constant complaint of folks who have exited abusive churches been that they had no voice? Well, you may not delete comments here, but it does not matter because you ignore the content, don’t answer direct questions, and resort to sarcasm. So, in essence, any one who does not mirror your views has no voice here."

    Sad,

    That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read. No voice? In case you haven't noticed, this is a very busy blog. You shouldn't expect that your every comment will be addressed.

    If you were posting challenging / adversarial comments on Calvinista blogs, they would in all likelihood be deleted pronto!

  212. Sad wrote:

    you ignore the content, don’t answer direct questions, and resort to sarcasm.

    I have to say that this is like the pot calling the kettle black. There have been many here who offered you very insightful and articulate comments. You ignored most of them, didn’t answer direct questions as to what “misfortunes” you were referring to, and resorted to sarcasm about how we’re all “rubbing” our “hands with glee” at someone’s “impending demise.”

  213. “As though spiritual growth and formation, sanctification if you will, is a purely human endeavor.”

    No one ever said it was. This tells me a lot. Santification is a mixed endeavor between the HS and the redeemed man. It is not simply waiting around for God to do something. It is putting on the new man (as outlined in Scripture) and taking off, putting aside, the old man. So, you don’t think people here are praying about any of this then? That is what your statement implies.”

    Thank you, Bridget!!

    If it is waiting around soley for God to force proper behavior on believers then is that CJ’s excuse for the pattern of coddling sexual molesters in SGM? God did not force him or his trained pastors to do the right thing by victims? Oh wait, he teaches that he is the biggest sinner he knows. We should have taken him at his word a long time ago. But then he also believes that the victims of sexual molestation are the same sinners as the molesters. All sin is equal unless you are CJ, of course.

  214. I haven’t read word for word that Crosby article Sad has linked to, but I would agree that there are some adults who have accepted religious abuse due to having some of their own narcissistic tendencies. However, there is another whole group of very innocent people who become abused by religious leaders when they themselves are completely innocent and just want to follow Christ completely.

    Romans 16:17-20

  215. Sad wrote: “Twisting words and misquoting and ascribing motives is not honest debate, though.”

    Sad writes later to Dee:

    “If you want to be seen as better than those you are criticizing, then you need to respond to criticism directed at you in a productive way. If you don’t, if you simply compare yourself to “them” by saying “at least we are not as bad as them” without acknowledging that you might have made a mis-step here and there, you have no moral high ground whatsoever. ”

    ??????

  216. Sad wrote:

    So, in essence, any one who does not mirror your views has no voice here.

    Ahem. There are actually a fair number of commenters on this blog with dissenting views. I am amazed at the amount of respect each shows for the others in their dialogues. Dee and Deb very rarely delete any comments that disagree with them. Perhaps it is our shared experiences of abusive churches/situations that gives us a sensitivity towards others and their feeling/opinions. You do not have to agree with anyone here, nor do we have to agree with you. But, the primary purpose of this blog is to support those who have experienced abuse, particularly children who were sexually abused, at the hands of the church. This may not align with your opinion of how this should or should not be approached.

  217. “Well, you may not delete comments here, but it does not matter because you ignore the content, don’t answer direct questions, and resort to sarcasm.”

    Could you please furnish specific examples of where Dee did this?

  218. @ dee: Aw shucks! [blushes and looks at feet] Thanks, but the feeling is mutual.

    Jeff S – Indeed we are in this together!

  219. Sad-
    My heart sunk when I read the quote this afternoon, it seemed off somehow, as if it didn’t belong here on this blog, because it reinforced to me that it was my fault that I didn’t exercise my God given ability to protect myself, and that I failed to say no to what I am just starting to be able to name: spiritual abuse.

    I was a adult, when I came to Christ- 28 years old, not having any formal background with the church, I was naive, and trusted whole heartily the leaders with their education & study of the scriptures.

    Not all who begin their walk with Jesus have the knowledge to rightly discern truth from error. It takes some of us a lot of time to learn.

    I had the Holy Spirit- yes I was an adult chronologically BUT I was a babe in Christ. I am not ashamed anymore to say I was not whole- I came to Christ because I was sick, and I need healing & grace & love, I needed a hospital.

    I still do, and I have been walking or limping with Jesus for 30 years now so please try & understand that some of us are seriously hurt-broken- by being spiritually abused, and this and Julie’s blog have been the only place I have found that extends mercy to the abused.

  220. Sad

    Who says I want to be seen as better than anyone else? For example, Happymom who just commented is a wonderful person. I wish I could be as courageous and loving as she is. In fact, if you are looking for a role model, look to her. Her story is permanently linked on our home page. 

  221. anon1

    I am expecting a few “visitors” as SGM and CCV heat up. I also expect them to be provocative. Still waiting to be called an Amalekite-this could be my lucky day….

  222. ” am expecting a few “visitors” as SGM and CCV heat up. I also expect them to be provocative. Still waiting to be called an Amalekite-this could be my lucky day….

    I will raise you a Jezebel! Which has been my all time favorite insult by the groupthink people.

  223. Happymom

    I had a great dinner. Thankfully, we had a gift certificate. I hope you had a wonderful evening. You deserve it! My prayers are with you.

  224. “was a adult, when I came to Christ- 28 years old, not having any formal background with the church, I was naive, and trusted whole heartily the leaders with their education & study of the scriptures.”

    Exactly Gail. And I would point out that a lot of spiritual abuse happens in churches that have a middle and upper class demographic who are educated. Keep in mind, these churches do NOT want people to mature spiritually.

    I am convinced had I not been raised in spiritual freedom with a focus on being a Berean and part of the priesthood I would have been in a lot longer. And in my situation, it was not the teaching that was the real problem. It was what went on behind stage that was hidden from the pew sitters. Had I not seen it up close and been around the cult of personality in real time, I know not what would have happened.
    But I kept noticing the people on staff they threw to curb were afraid to speak out. And it was all the time. There was no such thing as not being a “team player” and any disagreement was seen not being on the team.

    There are some out there who are involved in ministry who look the other way because they need to pay their bills and its all they know how to do.

    Another problem is that we have allowed ourselves to be convinced we learn about Christ and his truth by listening to some guy preach week after week. Not true.

  225. Gail

    There are some mean people in the world. I want you to know that we are very glad that you have come here and we believe in the pain of spiritual abuse. I will be praing for you this evening. 

  226. Julie Anne, I have taken to asking them to clarify if I am the Jezebel in the book of Kings or the one in Revelation? :o)

  227. Sad

    Take this as a warning. Tone it down. You are now hurting others. You can call me every name in the book, insult me and insult this blog, I can take it. But you start showing some compassion to others who come here for support. 

    You may believe that God is sovereign, show it off on some sign, but that does not make you a loving  Christian. I am now officially mad and that is after having a nice glass of Zinfandel. 

  228. “And I would point out that a lot of spiritual abuse happens in churches that have a middle and upper class demographic who are educated. Keep in mind, these churches do NOT want people to mature spiritually”
    Yes, Anon you nailed it- It was respectable PhD’s that led us and most of my so called best friends in the church were Dr.s or higher educated people who thought our leaders walked on water. The thing I don’t understand at all is why they: “these churches do NOT want people to mature spiritually” Bear with me, I am ten years out- almost lost my faith in our precious Lord due to what I went through, so I just cannot wrap my head around why they don’t want people to mature.

  229. O Dee- Thank-you. I feel more cared for here than I ever did in my ex-church. Thank-You for your prayers & compassion, it really makes an impact on my weary heart. Prayers for you too!

  230. Gail wrote:

    so I just cannot wrap my head around why they don’t want people to mature.

    It’s about control, period.

  231. Anon1- Forgot to say I am glad for your sake that you were able to get out, and a bless you for validating what I have known in my gut for a few years-but hard to let go of in my mind after being immersed in touch not my anointed pastor- he brings the word- you know the drill I’m sure.

    “Another problem is that we have allowed ourselves to be convinced we learn about Christ and his truth by listening to some guy preach week after week. Not true”

  232. Gail wrote:

    I feel more cared for here than I ever did in my ex-church.

    I agree. This blog, and you people, have been a Godsend.

  233. @ dee:

    Dee,

    That “sign” came from the blog of a young mom whose 3 year old has brain cancer, with an 11% survival rate. She put it up the night of his diagnosis and the visual impacted me so greatly that it has sat on my computer desktop ever since.

    My favorite Bible passage is Job 1:20-22. It is Job’s response to hearing the news that all of his children had just been killed. The reason it is my favorite passage is because I need to be reminded every minute of every day of what my response needs to be when things get rough. And things inevitably do get rough…for all of us. For this reason, I feel with all of my heart that it is not loving to encourage people to dwell on wrongs that were done to them. I fear that this infantilizes us and handicaps us instead of helping and strengthening us. And I speak from experience, having nursed grudges for years and years, and reaped the consequences of doing so.

    So, coming from this point of view, Dee….in my book it IS loving and compassionate to try to point out that there may be another way to deal with spiritual abuse. However, it is your yard, your rules and I will respect that and not post again. God bless you, and thank you for listening. And I am very sorry that I made you angry.

    20 Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”
    22 In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong.”

  234. @ Dee:

    I wondered if I should jump in… I really don’t like to throw gasoline on a fire or pick fights. I’m not one of the commenters here who has been abused so I can’t always tell when something has crossed a line into being triggering. I also read the pingback on the Ray Ortlund thread and I am trying very hard to be fair to everyone.

    But there have been some very specific questions/concerns posed to Sad in this thread (mostly by Jeff) and I haven’t seen her answer them. I’m not saying this to be mean to Sad or provocative, and obviously I can’t know what she’s thinking. I certainly don’t think she’s a tool of any dark powers. But vagueness and a failure to produce specific evidence/answers to specific questions is a big red flag for me. (I also can’t see where you failed to do this as she alleges.) There’s no way for me to know if it was an oversight or intentional, but I do see several unanswered questions.

    And for the record, I don’t consider sarcasm to be a de facto mark against anybody unless it is obviously malicious, pure bluster, or an attempt to avoid a question.

  235. Gail,

    “The thing I don’t understand at all is why they: “these churches do NOT want people to mature spiritually”

    Rafiki answered it: Control. And that is because of all sorts of reasons that are different depending on the situation. For example, in the mega industrial complex, they have to be seen as growing all the time. Everything is about growing the church and people are expendable in that system. You can get rid of one trouble maker because there are 10 more coming in the door. The troublemaker might take 30 with them if you allow them to have any influence. When you get into shepherding cults or the T4G guys, I think the control issue is more complex and is less about a system than it is about the celebrity having followers.

    “Bear with me, I am ten years out- almost lost my faith in our precious Lord due to what I went through, so I just cannot wrap my head around why they don’t want people to mature.”

    I can relate but I was blessed in some ways because of my upbringing with freedom in Christ. I should have known better!!! I literally asked myself if what I saw and experienced had anything at all to do with Christ in any way shape or form. This question took the form of having nothing to with any institution for several years while I answered that question for myself by totally immersing myself in Him. Best time I ever spent AWAY from that world. What a difference it made! (I only read the Gospels during that time while I prayed a lot)

    All I can say, and I say this knowing that many will disagree, is that what I was involved in had nothing to do with the Jesus Christ of the Gospels or the One Who I now know was wooing me to Him in my heart.

    For years, people would ask me why I left and I wouldn’t tell them all the horrors I saw but would let them knw there were horrors and they would flippantly respond, “There is no such thing as a perfect church”. That was like a knife in the back to me because I saw stuff they would not believe happened unless they witnessed it or it happened to them personally. (Because they believed the carefully crafted personas on a stage)

    The Holy Spirit eventually impressed up on me what I was really looking for so I would just say to folks that I was never seeking a perfect church just a pure one. That gets the convo another place…a real place. What is pure of heart? It is not sinless perfection at all. It is more about being real, transparent, trustworthy, never using people, etc.

    The one thing I came away with from those few years I spent alone with Christ is that I could NOT blame God for what I thought He had allowed the wolves to do in His Name. Yes, I was angry with God over it.

    Why could I not blame God? Because it became so obvious to me that He gave us free will. The ability to think, learn, reason, make choices, etc. After seeing so much spiritual abuse and as it still rages, I am more convinced of that than ever. I believe Jesus weeps over this just as he wept over Jerusalem but He does not force Himself on anyone.He loves us and wants us to choose Him. Not some celebrity guru.

  236. Sad, I am basing this on reading you in two threads now. Your last comment reeks of something I saw all the time in the mega industrial complex. I hope I am wrong. the “sign” you mention has NOTHING to do with spiritual abuse but you seem to be using a horrible situation to try and show you are compassionate.

    “For this reason, I feel with all of my heart that it is not loving to encourage people to dwell on wrongs that were done to them. I fear that this infantilizes us and handicaps us instead of helping and strengthening us. And I speak from experience, having nursed grudges for years and years, and reaped the consequences of doing so.”

    All this does is prove you understand nothing. You are “assuming motives” as you chided Dee for doing earlier. You call it “dwelling on wrongs” while we call it “acknowledging wrongs have been done” and it is about time!

    Talking about it as in why it happened and recognizing evil (yes it is evil) is not handicapping anyone. It is helping folks heal and get healthy. did you know that many folks will leave an abusive marriage and get right back into another one. Ever wonder why? Becausse they did not take the time to figure it out. Taking the time to work it out with loving compassionate people who have ‘been there, done that’ does the opposite of infantalizing someone. The way to stay an infant is to run to another guru like your Piper

    What you call “grudges” some of us call real serious evil done in the Name of Christ. That, is serious business and people should be warned about the Nicolaitans, wolves and hirlings.

    There are many people out there who think a Christianese title and standing behind a pulpit gives someone special anointing they cannot have themselves. That, is infantile.

  237. Sad- I know you directed your post to Dee so forgive me for butting in, but I was troubled by what you had posted early. Some of your comments seem passive aggressive, you seem so kind and then you bite. So, if you can just hear me out I will try to keep this brief.
    There are always two sides to a story: yours & mine or anyone else here. I was instructed to simply forgive & forget especially the things that were behind me.(Phillipians 3:13) Being a messy sinner as I am I just buried my anger alive.

    There wasn’t a safe person that I could pour my heart to. You wrote: “I feel with all of my heart that it is not loving to encourage people to dwell on wrongs that were done to them. I fear that this infantilizes us and handicaps us instead of helping and strengthening us. And I speak from experience, having nursed grudges for years and years, and reaped the consequences of doing so”

    I am sure you mean well- but I disagree- That is what the body of Christ does- it listens, and lets others tell their stories, or to be biblical were weep with those who weep to get the pain out. Sure, we can say peace peace, but in reality we cannot cure our wounds by pretending they are not there- or:”For they have healed the wound of the daughter of My people only lightly and slightingly, saying, Peace, peace, when there is no peace.

    I am sure I am not speaking only for myself when I say that I do not want to get stuck dwelling on what I went through- but there is a time and a place to unpack the hurt and pain with other like minded merciful Christians. Can you at least consider that this might be a place for the wounded to heal?

  238. Anon1-

    You are articulate- putting in words for me that I have not yet formed inside. But I hear you- and I will ponder your post, come back to it in the morning.

    Thank-You, I am grateful for others that have plowed through the fields of this mind boggling confusion of control… I could highlight all of your post but this resonated deeply:

    “The one thing I came away with from those few years I spent alone with Christ is that I could NOT blame God for what I thought He had allowed the wolves to do in His Name. Yes, I was angry with God over it.

    Why could I not blame God? Because it became so obvious to me that He gave us free will. The ability to think, learn, reason, make choices, etc. After seeing so much spiritual abuse and as it still rages, I am more convinced of that than ever. I believe Jesus weeps over this just as he wept over Jerusalem but He does not force Himself on anyone.He loves us and wants us to choose Him. Not some celebrity guru.

  239. Sad, do you know what my favorite song in the whole world is? “It Is Well With My Soul”. This fits right in with your view of how a great man of faith responded in a crisis and tragedy.

    But here’s the thing- it’s far different to tell people to respond that way than it is to do it as a matter of your own faith. Would it have been wrong for Spafford to have wept uncontrollably all the way on that voyage instead of writing this amazing song? I don’t think so- when we are hurt it is right for us to weep and express our pain, and it takes some of us longer than others to get through our own trials. That Spafford wrote that song is a wonderful feat of grace in his life, and praise God that he did. But let’s not make these things the standards by how we judge others who are suffering. In fact, can we just not judge those who suffer at all?

    Each person’s trial is different, so let’s avoid putting them into boxes- I’ve been there and your “another way to look at it” isn’t “another way”- its the way many of us tried and found that it failed us. Trying to examine ourselves and take responsibility for the pain caused us didn’t stop the pain or make it more tolerable- it just heaped guilt on us for not being able to measure up.

    If I had one thing to say to all the Christians offering me advice on how to deal with the pain in my life it would be “talk less, listen more”. Stop thinking you have the answers- you have no clue what you are talking about until you stop and listen. When you know me and I trust you, then we can have conversations about how you think I’m handling my suffering.

    Honestly, over the last few days I’ve made many points with you that you’ve failed to acknowledge or respond to, so I think it’s a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black to accuse Deb and Dee of silencing people by ignoring them.

    As I’ve said before, unlike many of the other commenters here, I’m in your theological camp, but I think you are way wrong on the stuff that you are saying. And the reason I think you are wrong is that you are speaking in ignorance. If you would listen to the stories of survivors and start empathizing, you would see how much pain the things you are saying cause. Victims aren’t a theological puzzle to be solved- they are flesh and blood humans who need empathy, love, and compassion. And without the empathy, how are you going to know what love and compassion look like?

    And to note: right now I’m in a great place. I feel healthy, my walk is strong, and I am not suffering. But I know what it was like and I know how all the things you are saying felt when I was in that place, because nothing you are saying is new to me. It drove me into despair then- so why would I let is stand unanswered with the potential to hurt others who read what you write?

  240. @ Jeff:

    Excellent comment at 12:04. I always enjoy reading your comments – unlike me, you manage to put things succinctly without sounding cranky or angry.

  241. @ dee:
    Had a pastor who had been called a Jezebel in front of her young child when she first appeared the Baptist church. Those doing the calling were not from the local area and included some of those people who protest at military funerals.

  242. @ anon 1:

    In most of the megas and other (behind the scenes) cultish churches, the whole public persona is an act and it is scripted like a movie. And just as in Lincoln, where the director and writer chose to put forth lies rather than the truth (which would have been as dramatic), so as in these so-called “Christian” environments, it would be so much better and just as uplifting if they actually lived the Christian life openly and pastored and led the congregation honestly as who they really are. But they don’t cause they aren’t; it’s all an act and a highly remunerative career with lots of admiring fans that is not terribly taxing work.

  243. Sad

    I had a 3 year old child who survived a malignant brain tumor with a less than 10% prognosis as well. I am glad tha it visually impacted you. However, when you come on a blog and tell othrers to buck up, it can be seen as insensitive for you. She is not the one commenting. I am glad you have solved your issues with grudges. 

  244. @ dee:

    Dee,

    Just wanted to make sure that you got the information on Dr. Richard Bernstein. He’s a diabetes specialist, and not to be confused with a Dr. Bernstein who is a bariatric physician. His magic number for blood glucose is 81, and as I said he recommends only 30 grams of carbohydrate per day. What he has accomplished is remarkable. God bless.

    http://www.diabetes-book.com

  245. So many of these comments have impacted me in this thread and I am thankful for Deb & Dee who welcome those in ALL stages of the healing process.

    Love this comment by Jeff S:

    Victims aren’t a theological puzzle to be solved- they are flesh and blood humans who need empathy, love, and compassion. And without the empathy, how are you going to know what love and compassion look like?

  246. Hi all,

    Off topic (as usual) … going in for cardiac cath tomorrow on Monday spending weekend bored to tears in hospital. Just wanted to say hiya. Figured to help eliminate the boredom I’d park myself here and chat for a bit…hope u don’t mind

  247. Pingback: Should We Repent for Allowing Ourselves to be Spiritually Abused? | Spiritual Sounding Board

  248. Stephen Crosby’s “honesty” about spiritual abuse: It takes two to tango

    BS……..Just by reading the “It takes two to tango” bs already tells me that he is blaming the victim. I don’t need to read the whole thing to see this.His so-called valid points are not valid. Even for people who have grown up in a loving enviroment and who are “whole” even get taken in by sociopaths.This guy and others like him need to crawl back into their wholes were they came from. I don’t have any tolerance for these people because they are in bed with the pathologicals. And yes, other pathologicals gravitate towards each other to benefit from each other and that also means a church enviroment.So he’s telling on himself. The word idiot is being to nice to this guy…

  249. Hi Fendrel! Long time no see. Do you have a-fib or SVT or something else? My daughter had SVT and last year had cardiac cath at 16 years old.

  250. “there is no such thing as a perfect church” Excuses,excuses,excuses…People who say this in light of spiritual abuse(or any other problems in the church), well this just speaks volumes of who they really are.They don’t care about the truth and are self-centered. Can’t tell you how aggravated I get over this trite comment.

  251. Yo, Eagle!

    Sometimes vagueness is a way to be kind when you are frustrated. But as you know, I’ll usually talk about anything.

  252. 56 Years

    I just read the name of Roger Olson’s favorite pastor. I believe that it is the one that was called Jezebel. Wade talked about it on  his talk “Does your theolog trump your love.” I hope to meet her one day.  Thank you for being willing to have a female pastor. 

  253. Fendrel

    Please let me know if we can be of any assistance to you. We do hearts pretty good at our house.  I will pray for you but do not let that slow you done. 🙂

  254. stormy

    There is no such thing as a perfect church….yeah right. ALL churches hide pedophiles and cover up or do not report abuse. ALL churches tell people they are “sinfully craving answers.”  Poppycock! ALL churches have sinners but not all sinners become pedophiles.

  255. stormy,

    I understand your reaction to Stephen Crosby’s post It Takes Two to Tango.

    Would you do me a favor? Would you listen to this interview that was aired live on the internet yesterday morning? This is a discussion between Vince Oakley, who was involved in an SGM church until 2008, and Dr. Stephen Crosby, who was involved in another cultish ministry years ago and has moved beyond it. Thanks.

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/vincecoakley/2013/02/16/sgm-detox

  256. I just listened to the interview, which gave me a new perspective. I didn’t feel like I was hit by a 2 by 4 as I did when Sad posted it.

  257. Deb, I still feel the same about him. He acts as though he is for the victims but then contradicts himself in “it takes two to tango.” I don’t trust anybody like this and their contradictions show what they really believe. That is what cults do. They have some truth mixed in with nonsense so it makes them look like what they say is legit.

  258. Hey Fendrel! Hope the catheterisation goes well…will be thinking of you. What’s your favourite subject?

  259. I’m always showing up to these discussions too late. Stupid time difference.

    Sad,

    I’ve addressed you a few times in the past, both here and on JA’s blog, as I recall. Pretty much all I’d like to say has already been said very well by others here. As such, it amazes me that no one seems to have gotten through to you. I’m not sure that I can offer anything more, but I think I have something to say.

    My favorite Bible passage is Job 1:20-22. It is Job’s response to hearing the news that all of his children had just been killed.

    Job’s declaration of faith here is indeed very inspiring. However, I’m sure you’ve noticed that even he couldn’t keep up that kind of talk for long. Eventually, his sufferings and losses simply overwhelmed him, and left him cursing the day of his birth, and questioning the justice of God.

    In most of your comments on this blog, and especially in this thread — saying that victims of abuse are “dwelling on” their pain, and being “infantilized”, and quoting Crosby in saying that the abused need to “repent” for being victimized — you don’t sound much like Job. To me, you sound much more like his three friends, telling him that he somehow brought all his suffering on himself. Which did not help Job at all, either to relieve his suffering or to maintain his relationship with God.

    You like to quote Job, Sad? Here are some lines of his that many commenters here could probably relate to:

    “Don’t I have a right to complain? Don’t wild donkeys bray when they find no grass, and oxen bellow when they have no food?” … “Honest words can be painful, but what do your criticisms amount to? Do you think your words are convincing when you disregard my cry of desperation?”

    Another line of his from Chapter 6 jumps out at me: “Have I asked you to rescue me from my enemies, or to save me from ruthless people?” Job didn’t want his friends to solve all his problems or make everything better — he just wanted them to be with him, and the chance to express his pain with people he could trust.

    I imagine most victims want that more than anything, at least from friends and other lay people. The best you and I can offer them is to listen, not lecture. Jeff S said it above, and said it very well, but it bears repeating. Solving their problems — working through their trauma towards peace — is best left to the Lord and to professionals. It’s way out of our league.

    Sad, I don’t know if you’re reading this. I get the feeling Dee’s anger a while back startled you. Heck, I felt it, and it wasn’t even directed at me. But I don’t think she’s banned you. You’re free to keep reading here, and I (for one) hope you will; I’m just a lurker here, but it seems like a great place to learn. I hope you will learn lots. And if you comment again, try to keep in mind just how little you understand about being abused. Try to comment in a spirit of humility. It’s the best way for you to learn, and for others not to get hurt all over again.

  260. Serving in Japan

    Great comment. I admit it. There is a hot button button issue for me. Some victims of difficult situations can get hurt by accusatory comments. I happen to know a lot about Gail and her situation. I have no problem with people going after me. We allow all sorts of comments about our character, etc. When I see our readers get hurt, it is time to tone it down. I told her she was free to insult me (which she was doing) but not free to cause needless pain to others. 

    On the banning thing, when someone gets banned, they, and everyone else, usually knows it. I think we have banned about 8 people in our history. Some of them have been invited back after being on ice for a couple of weeks but said people have not taken us up on the offer as yet.

  261. It is difficult to realize you gave over control of your life to others, and that does need to be examined and unpacked. Thats part of the process of detoxing, and I think the process involves going through the classic stages of grief, which include anger. The more deeply committed you were, the more of your life you entrusted to the leadership because that is what the message was: be married to the church. Its a covenant. Be 100% faithful. The more humble you are the less there will be of you.

    Part of detoxing involves being legitimately angry over how Gods Word was twisted and used against you by others who profitted from your deception. They used Gods word as an instrument of manipulation & control, contrary to His will, and if their hearts were right but also in the wrong place then we would be seeing the Mahaney’s & Co. making a full-scale repentence for their actions. Instead we have seen them revealed for who they have been all along: “virtuous” profiteers. The indignation one feels is over the way Gods holy word was mishandled, mistaught, mistreated & maligned by people who kept telling you what they were doing to you was true to the gospel when in fact it was based on lies.

    I rubbed shoulders with plenty of people while I was in SGM that I could tell were not commited to the truth. I have a ling list of experiences that I look back on in which I know I had discerned in certain people a predominating falsehood. It was the kind of falsehood that worked within these people to snuff out the Spirit. Ultimately, SGM leadership claimed a higher authority over the realm of the Spirit and many times I witnessed a resistance to rather than a submission to the work of the Spirit in the lives of believers. I saw this particularly in Pastors & their wives, in Care Group leaders and their wives, and in those people who were the most cloesly committed to them, and I can site specific examples. They are etched on my memory. Im not sure what to call that, but what Im describing was a pattern I witnessed and manifested itself routinely to the point I would describe it as having been a power at work. And it was not the power of the Spirit. In fact, it always manifested as a reaction against the Spirit. And I will tell you it functioned swiftly and furiously to bring things back under control and away from the Spirit that if you didnt catch it it escaped your notice and you were left with just a vague sense of something having happened in the spiritual realm. And its because of this underlying operating power that worked to quench and control the Spirit that I contend SGM is a cult.. In a true church, the Spirit of God and the Lordship of Jesus Christ are welcomed, not actively resisted and usurped.

  262. @ dee:

    Dee- I sent you a e-mail.

    It felt to me like Dee had my back along with others, so I didn’t hear anger, I heard strength & love. Of course I realize that our perception is our reality so maybe it came off as angry to Sad…Sad made the choice to put herself on the hot seat.

  263. Serving in Japan said to Sad “And if you comment again, try to keep in mind just how little you understand about being abused.”
    I’m just curious if I missed something Sad had said. Has she commented that she doesn’t know abuse?
    I’m just wondering because until I gave my whole heart to God 22 years ago and started facing truth, I didn’t know how much I knew about abuse. I never had to endure physical (other than the occassional out of their anger spanking) or sexual abuse from my parents, but there was much other religious, physical abuse in IFB school and relationship abuse (including date rape) ALL that I had never called abuse, had never talked about in detail, and the pain of it I only blamed on myself, which in turn made me callous towards others’ pain. I had been taught to blame myself through the ‘it always takes two’ crapology. I am almost 52 and I still unfold some details of my past that I never thought significant and am surprised at the compassion and validation that healthy people, who really never knew abuse have. Sometimes people are afraid to show shock, but if you’ve been conditioned to believe that you deserved what happened to you, there is such a tendency to minimize what happened, but to see the pain that you’ve always felt inside reflected on the face of a caring listener it seems to lift some of that pain right out of the soul. I understand that some people just can’t handle hearing details just like some people can’t handle the sight of blood. That’s ok, but if you can, then God has a place for you to help among the wounded.

  264. Sad can, of course, speak for herself/himself, but I do recall discussion of abuse in his/her life. We all deal with pain in different ways and shouldn’t try to overlay our experiences onto someone else. There are too many individual factors that play into any one life/situation to be able to come up with one equation that works for everyone. Jesus brings healing in a myriad of ways.

  265. I see Sad as trying to add in a constructive way to the discussion, from a different perspective. I feel her intentions were truly good, and I can’t help but feel sad for what seems to be too reactionary a response to her. I think nerves are a little raw at the moment, but also I think a more reasoned, gracious response was possible.

  266. Bridget-“There are too many individual factors that play into any one life/situation to be able to come up with one equation that works for everyone.”

    I agree, however I do believe that there are a few principles that apply to every situation.

    And, I never know when my healing stories will be just what someone else needs to hear in case it works for them also, whether or not hearing it is recognized as helpful at the moment or years down the road. I was furious when my brother’s counselor sternly told me that I was in denial and that was why I was being uncompassionate toward him in family rehab. It was years later that I came face to face with myself and my past and those words were indeed helpful.

  267. “see Sad as trying to add in a constructive way to the discussion, from a different perspective. I feel her intentions were truly good, and I can’t help but feel sad for what seems to be too reactionary a response to her. I think nerves are a little raw at the moment, but also I think a more reasoned, gracious response was possible.

    You are allowed to think that. I, on the other hand, have been dealing with this for so long that Sad’s wording is all too familiar. It is as if there is a play book even though there isn’t, it is the same stuff over and over. Sad may not even be aware of how immersed he/she is in the groupthink. I think those of us who have dealt with this issue for so long tend to cut through the BS a bit quicker. It just gets old. And quite frankly, I tend to think the victims get a bad rap over and over. I used to play the game with “sad” types thinking it would build bridges but now I have realized what a waste of time that is. Some folks have to experience something in a real way before they can give compassion. Thank God for those who don’t have to!

    (PS-When Sad mentioned “grudges” and talking about it as infantilizing folks,that should have been a glaring red flag for you)

  268. Hey Everyone, Read this post on “gossip” from Frank Viola then read the comments. He does not get it either. Evidently he seems to think there has to be “clear evidence” before one can say anything about possible child molestation. So, he does not understand that pedophiles groom their victims and many times have hundreds before they are caught. He needs to be educated by SNAP.

    Too bad about Viola. I am starting to think the internet is making them all uncomfortable in many ways when it comes to this issue.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankviola/themostignoredsin/

    “The most ignored sin”

  269. @ Anon 1:
    Yeah. Shame on all those abused Catholics for slandering their former priests. And shame on those who listened to their outcry. They should have “taken it out and buried it.” Let’s make certain that pedophiles and child abusers are “Biblically” protected, and that the abused have no recourse. I seriously have to wonder what goes on behind the scenes with authors who write this garbage.

    You’re right Anon 1, it really is the same stuff over and over.

  270. “I use to play the game with “Sad” types thinking it would build bridges but now I have realized what a waste of time that is.” Exactly…it is just a game for these people and it’s a complete waste of time dealing with them.

  271. stormy

    One of the interesting side effects of some individuals is that they divide and conquer-causing turmoil on blogs. I know of one blog that shut down over such such an individual. They have a way of saying something and then denying they said that. They rarely answer direct questions and instead take an accusatory approach.

    Recently, I had to no longer allow a person to comment. There was a threat made to me in an email. I decided not to tell everyone about it because most commenters believed said person was gone anyway. I also get emails from other bloggers reporting problem people. I do not tell everyone about these emails and allow the person some latitude. In many cases, the problems never materialize.

    This is not an exact sciencee and I am sure we make mistakes on a regular basis. So, when we are confused, we revert to our prime directive. That helps us refocus and often provides us with a answer to our confusion.

  272. Here is the thing…Sad’s commments are the prevailing view in churches that spiritually abuse. it is the same stuff. It seeks to marginalize and subtly insult the victims. It is also a sort of shaming tactic. I have seen it zillions of times. Some of the nicest people in the world use it because they automatically want to defend a “church” or their favorite pastor.

    In the early days of blogging I used my real name and got death threats. One even emailed me and had my correct address! I don’t think most folks are aware of just how evil things have become in Christendom or how zealous some are to protect their turf from any negative truths.

  273. Anon 1 wrote:

    In the early days of blogging I used my real name and got death threats.

    Seriously?!! From other “Christians?” Because it would REALLY be hypocritical to defend one’s pet church or pet pastor by threatening someone with death. I’d have to assume said people knew the ten commandments. Never mind the fact that their threats are criminal, and your blogging is not.

  274. @ elastigirl: I appreciate what you’re saying, but Sad has been commenting off and on here for a while, and it seems as if discussions with her end in the same kinds of deadlocks. (Or have in the past, at least – the future could be very different…)

    I also can see why those who’ve experienced severe abuse might react intensely to a lot of Sad’s posts.

  275. Dee, I’ve delt with these people online too and from what I can tell is that they are pathological. One situation I was in got pretty hairy. These people are always looking to start trouble. Of course this is a pathologicals Mo.

  276. OH MY WORD. Just when we thought Piper could not get anymore bizarro world, you have to listen to this:

    http://pilgrimagetogeneva.com/2013/02/13/sinners-and-saints-radio-on-john-piper-and-dgm/

    Go to 50 min mark and listen.

    Go to the 50 min mark and listen to Piper talk about his next phase as some sort of global apostle or passtor to the world as the “world needs to hear an authentic testimony from a living voice and the world needs solid teaching….” or something like that. He really says that about himself!!! He went to Geneva to announce this?

    Keep in mind the pastors doing the program are Reformed and early on chide Piper for not being a real Calvinist. But what Piper says about HIMSELF is down right scary. He really sees himself this way?

    This is the stuff of fiction, folks. He fits right in with CJ.

  277. Piper worshipping Calvin. Of course he gets some of the history wrong but that is typical. The rehab of Calvin lives on. He forgets to mention how Calvin made others suffer for disagreeing about God in Geneva when he got power.

    God will exalt himself through Piper. That is exactly what he is saying about himself!

    So Piper sees himself as the 21st Century Calvin. Too much Calvin, not enough Jesus, and they are not the same thing!

    Wonder how much it cost the donors to send him to Geneva to do this video to promote himself? Suckers born every minute.

  278. @ anon 1:

    Not being a “real” Calvinist? How is John Piper not a “real” Calvinist? Did they miss his weather assessments? – those contained a lot of predestination-y stuff.

  279. between the background music and his emotional-breathy tone of voice it is spooky.

    – bring on the violins… it seems manipulative… me me me me and when the angels break out in song at the end I had to chuckle. because once upon a time I would have bought it line hook and sinker.

  280. Thanks anon 1 for the links to the Piper video/radio program. The commentary by the hosts from the 50 min mark on was right on as well. I am going to listen to the whole thing.

    Pipermade some strange comments at the First Marriot Church of Louisville as well. 30 min mark: The bible is a “connector between you and Jesus”. As long as we are in this world with this brain and these eyes, this kind of heart, this kind of mind, and a book in front of us- to throw the book away is going to be to throw Jesus away. So Timothy…you don’t want to do that. Sovereign Grace of Louisville-you don’t wanna do that.” I am not sure what he meant with all that.

  281. @ Diane:

    “The bible is a ‘connector between you and Jesus.’ As long as we are in this world with this brain and these eyes, this kind of heart, this kind of mind, and a book in front of us- to throw the book away is going to be to throw Jesus away.”

    Wait – so if Pipes was shipwrecked on a desert island and his Bible was lost in the wreckage, he would be severed from Jesus until he got access to a Bible again? What happened to prayer? And what did the early Christians do before the canon was standardized?

    I know that’s probably a caricature of what he meant but really, come on. That’s got some really bad implications if you take it to its logical conclusion.

  282. “Not being a “real” Calvinist? How is John Piper not a “real” Calvinist? Did they miss his weather assessments? – those contained a lot of predestination-y stuff.”

    The guys doing the show claim he is not a real Calvinist because for one, he does not baptize covenant babies. They are very Calvinistic even in their ecclesiology.

    Gail, it is what Piper does best: High drama. One reason he is so popular. He is a performer.

  283. @ Hester~

    Yes to all you said…plus I sorta thought we had the Holy Spirit as our “connector” to Jesus, so to speak. He has sealed us with His Spirit.

  284. The early Christians did not have the NT. And the OT was a huge learning curve for the Gentiles. Yep, the connecter is God himself dwelling in us as the Holy Spirit. We are the temple now.

  285. @ Hester:

    I listened to about 1/2 the sermon so far. He is preaching on the importance of the Bible (almost to all else it seems). The Gospel he and SGM preach is ssssooooo much more than what others preach (non Neo-Calvinist of course). The Preacher is of greatest importance as he proclaims in the little Geneva Vimeo, and Calvin seems to be Pipers version of a saint and he intends to follow in Calvin’s footsteps.

  286. Patti,

    Yet again the convo has moved on while I’m at my day job. *sigh*

    I’m just curious if I missed something Sad had said. Has she commented that she doesn’t know abuse?

    I’m not sure that Sad has ever addressed this specifically. I seem to recall reading some of her(?) comments on JA’s blog a few months back, expressing incredulity at how Julie Anne (a grown woman) could possibly have fallen for a con-man pastor (no matter how clever), and how Sad would never have allowed herself to be taken in like that. Sad’s words and tone struck me as those of one who had never really suffered that kind of abuse, at least not as an adult. It’s entirely possible that I misread her, but those comments really rubbed me the wrong way.

    I can’t find the comment(s) in question at the moment — it was a while ago, and I’m a bit busy. But that’s basically why I figure Sad has rarely, if ever, experienced abuse. If I’m wrong, I apologize to Sad and to everyone here.

  287. Pingback: Should We Repent for Allowing Ourselves to be Spiritually Abused? | Liberty for Captives

  288. I’m totally late here, but in reading the dialogue with Sad I’d like to chime in that a major issue here is understanding the difference between simply giving people directions and walking the journey with them. I think “truth in love” is one of the most misused phrases in Christianity today. “In love” doesn’t mean that you just mean well by it, or that you simply hope it works out well in the end. It means you get down and dirty and walk the journey hand in hand. It means “sharing burdens” and “longsuffering” with one another.

    Abuse is heavy stuff, and victims need healing. But that road to healing can be long and arduous, and simply wagging your finger and saying “you need to get over it” completely misses what we are called to as the Body of Christ. The victims need brothers and sisters willing to hold their hands, listen, comfort, and encourage. Is the goal forgiveness and healing? Absolutely. But please, we don’t need armchair critics.

  289. @ Jeff S:

    Jeff,

    I wanted to shoot off a quick apology to you for not answering you point by point. You have posted a very measured, thoughtful, and reasonable response that deserved an answer. However, at the moment I have a pregnant daughter with second trimester bleeding from placenta previa and am a bit emotionally and physically drained from it, so I’m not in a position to give you the answers that you deserve.

    I did email Dee and try to explain that my motivation in interacting on this and Julie Anne’s blog has been to encourage forgiveness and reconciliation. And, let me clarify that I am speaking ONLY about spiritual abuse in adults and not sexual abuse of children when I say that.

    Thank you again for your comments, Jeff, and please forgive me for not responding to them at this time. And to anyone else that I have offended, please forgive me for not being more careful with my tone. It’s not an excuse for abruptness, but it has been a very difficult few days for our family.