You ladies rock and are doing a great job watching this whole SGM story as it continues to unfold.

As for the Mahaney Boytalk blog, they’re too scared to take comments. Should be called the Littleboy Talk blog 😛

Deb, It is incredible to think of what God has done through you and Dee in these few years since you responded to the prompting of the Holy Spirit and started TWW 🙂

When sexist, authoritarian church leaders seem to be untouchable with their toxic teaching spreading and abuses of all kinds being covered up, God intervened by raising up two ordinary, but wonderful women to turn the tide! Priceless!

A big thank you to Deb & Dee for all that you do.

I'm curious – do you have laptops in your kitchens? (no assumptions that you cook in the household or anything, just asking in case you do on occasion!)

I don't know where you find the time or how you organise yourselves in order to manage such a prolific blog. But you do, and here we are, and I'm grateful.

Deb – the picture at the top of the page is beautiful.

Julie Anne – that Sproul quote – ugh – is the weirdest, sickest, unenlightened, disrespectful of women …etc. If he was 'somebody' the quote would go down in history (like some from old fuddy duddy judges here about two decades ago – time doesn't move fast does it?) but he's not, so fortunately the words will keep moving along the sewer where they belong.

Trying to picture a universe in which Dee & Deb do NOT know about Mahaney and SGM is kind of a surreal exercise… ; )

1st Amendment: Pastors can protect abusers, molesters and rapists.

Yeah. That ought to go over real well outside the Christendom Reformed bubble.

I really don’t understand where the anti-birth-control people are coming from. How can birth control be linked with abortion? I don’t believe multiplying the church through physical births was a commandment to the NT church, but rather through spiritual rebirth?

One other Calvinist source has also found fault with his theology, and reading this article http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/09/taking-calvinism-too-far-rc-sproul-jr%E2%80%99s-evil-creating-deity/ you may also be somewhat taken aback by RCSJ’s position on the origin of sin.@ Julie Anne:

When they call you bitter, never defend. That is what they expwct and the convo becomes about YOU instead of the charlatan. Instead, laugh. Say congradulations! You have just played ONE of the “cultish censoring tactic”, cards, without realizing it.

Debra Baker had it right in her blog post on the use of “bitter”. For so many guys, it is a knee jerk, non thinking reaction to shut down the convo. It keeps them from having to think. It is a way of shooting the messenger.

Stormy wrote:

This guy, by the way, called me ‘bitter’ amongst other things.” Yep, we are bitter, judgmental and unforgiving. This is the card that these narcissists (and their minions) pull on people who expose the truth and expect you to go along with their warped perception of reality.

OT: An online friend of mine has a blog dealing with emotional abuse in relationships (she is a survivor of emotional abuse.) After I commented on her blog, her ex-husband (whom I was acquainted with in high school) e-mailed me and, among other things, called her blog “a well-written fantasy” by a person who was “bitter, angry, and unable to move on with her life.”

What is interesting is that my online friend has just completed a degree in health care administration and has moved to an area where she can put her education to work. Quite an accomplishment for a “bitter” woman who is “unable to move on”.

Well of course they claim that people are not “moving on” and are bitter. What other defense do they have to distract attention from their deceptive behavior?

@ Hester:

Hester, You nailed it – he’s pushing his agenda. I did some more digging and found he is connected with a movie about birth control and funny thing, all the people connected with this documentary are people in the homeschool movement (full-quiver, Patriarchal, courtship, family-integrated churches, etc). Go figure.

I actually engaged him on that tweet, then noticed my daughter, Hannah did as well. He responded to her, so I’ve joined in their conversation
https://twitter.com/rcsprouljr/status/294818795913109505

“called her blog a “well-written fantasy.” Projection much… These type of people are so predictable. You’d think that they would come up with something different by now.

LOL, the predestined light bulb.

“the guy has arrested development.” This is typical with the pathological narcissist. They never grew up mentally and you cannot reason with them on a mature level. It’s like you are dealing with a child.

@ dee:

Dee. Seriously. (Sorry, I hang around a lot of teens and pick up their lingo.) This morning as I was reading through your comments – both yours and Deb’s, I was thoroughly enjoying each one – – – yes, each one – – -and I thought to myself: I love how they both write and their personalities. You guys are great. You make me laugh, make me cry, make me angry enough to rant on my own blog. Thank you for this TWW and I’m very thankful for you both reaching out to me during my very dark days.

It also occurred to me that you both were reading SGMSurvivors the same time I was reading and posting there. I wrote about my former church experience and also HOFCC/Gregg Harris over there, but under pseudonym.

@ Moniker:

It seems like they had the process backwards. They should have been appealing beforehand, widening the circle, getting more people involved over a long period of time, doing everything possible to bring resolution. But in the SGM world everything is handled behind closed doors, by a few elders . . . no witnesses, no other perspectives, no congregational knowledge. No one is allowed to help bring discernment, repentance, or reconciliation except a few elders. It’s clear that they do not value the members of the body.

“He makes me want to throw up!”

X 1000.

Here is the latest on the sinfulness of birth control and the necessity of militant fecundity from the R. C. Sproul Jr. crowd:

http://otrmin.wordpress.com/2013/01/23/birth-control-film-coming-soon/

@ Eagle:
What Eagle said.

@ thatmom:
“militant fecundity”
What an apt description of the movement. Love it!

@ thatmom:
Oh, God. Just lost all humor.

Deb you wrote,

As someone who continues to identify as Southern Baptist, I am greatly concerned about the influence Mahaney and his ilk are having on my denomination!   Dee and I have made it our business to know what is going on in Christendom, and that’s why we have been keeping our eye on Mahaney and SGM.  We find it absolutely incredible that Mahaney will be addressing students in chapel at SEBTS next Thursday (1/31) and that he will again be speaking at the 20/20 Conference.>

@ thatmom:

Karen, that is exactly what I discovered yesterday and what my current blog post is about. He had an agenda with that tweet. It all makes sense now.

http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?14,113601,page=12

About Relocating to Louisville:

If you are to resign as President of SGM (according to your statement), why did SGM move to Louisville when you are planting a church there? Is your church in Louisville the base church for SGM instead of CLC or some other SGM church?

On April 19th 2012, there was a letter posted on the Sovereign Grace Ministries web site explaining the Board’s decision to relocate the Pastor’s College to Louisville. On this letter it was stated that it was the Board’s decision to do so after a vote at the first retreat the board had together. Who set up such a big decision to be made in light of the lack of time that the board had been together and able to prayerfully and wisely consider all the options and implications of such a move?

On February 27th 2012, the interim board sent out a letter outlining four priorities for the new board, none of these priorities called for a decision on a move to Louisville. What would cause the new board to put aside their priorities as stated by this letter and engage on a vote to relocate Sovereign Grace Ministries to another city? Who made that call and when was it made?

The vote to move Sovereign Grace Ministries to Louisville took place on the board’s retreat April 9th-10th yet nothing was communicated to the SGM pastors until a letter was posted on the web site April 19th. Many pastors who don’t regularly check the web site didn’t even find out till days after. Why was this move communicated to pastors and leaders outside SGM prior to the pastors of SGM?

Why were so many details of the move to Louisville discussed and acted upon prior to the board’s inception and most importantly prior to the vote (i.e. talks with Southern Theological Seminar, homes being listed for sale, etc…)?

Do you think that the decision to make a major ministry change – moving to Louisville – was appropriate for the new board’s first official meeting? Was this vote anything but a token procedure? How could it (the vote by the new board) be taken as a serious consideration when several SGM staffers had already placed their houses on the market for sale?

Sorry I initially posted Deb’s quote before adding my comment by accidentally hitting post comment. My apology.

I read the above list of questions Florida SGM Pastors had for CJ Mahaney from a meeting that was scheduled for May 25, 2012. I have no idea if CJ responded to or fielded the questions, or if the meeting took place.

CJ went ahead with his plans to plant a church in Louisville, KY and relocate SGM headquarters there without paying any attention to what anyone in CLC or SGM at large thought about it as the questions reveal. But it would appear Al Mohler knew about CJ’s plans. Has he ever raised any questions in regards to CJ’s relocation? This just all has the feeling now of Mohler providing refuge to a fugitive.

Mohler should lose his job. I think he should be removed as President of the SBTS. His support of CJ and what CJ has done within and to SGM is indefensible. The only defense Mohler can claim is ignorance, that he too was deceived by Mahaney. But at this point, there is plenty of evidence Mohler has available. He cannot use the excuse of saying what’s available online is gossip and slander and therefore not worthy of his attention. Surely that’s Mahaney’s stance. If he wants to stick his head in the sand, fine. But I think, at this point, a move like that shows a willful disregard for the truth, especially when he is inviting Mahaney to campus to impress himself favorably, with Mohler’s blessing, upon the minds of young people. It’s irresponsible and reprehensible.

Visit the website and scroll down to read the entire list of questions. They stand as a clear indictment, with each question carrying a legitimate charge of dishonesty and misconduct!

Deb wrote:

After reading your proposal to boycott conferences and stop buying the gospelicious books, Martin Luther and the indulgences have come to mind.

And after this, I DON’T want to hear any tongue-clucking about Romish Papists, Selling Indulgences, and Pedophile Priests. All too often, it comes from the likes of God’s Truly Elect like SGM.

There just seem to be so few churches who can handle the whole subject of sex maturely…what comes over is that we’re all slavering beasts & can’t control ourselves, so people marry young (& potentially badly), & others never develop any self-control when it comes to their sexual urges (? paedophiles…never get to relate to an adult in terms of their sexuality) All the usual fun stuff is bled out of becoming aware of the opposite sex & maybe starting to date, with the weight of lifelong committment to a spouse weighing the whole process down from the start. People aren’t people who want to be loved & cherished, emotionally as well as physically, they’re just beasts to be contained in marriage. I am heartily glad I did my adolescent years as an athiest. And so few people can handle adult singles as having an adult(even if celibate) sexuality, they’re just big asexual children, or again, beasts.
Half of these Pastors would drop dead if they had to deal with a genuine mature woman who hadn’t been brought up in a stunted way. They are very fixated on young sexuality.

Rafiki wrote:

Deb and Dee, I am so glad you’ve posted links to these conferences. I think they need to get “love bombed” with emails from concerned Christians asking about their silence (“nothing to see here, these are not the ‘droids you’re looking for”) and continued promotion of Mahaney in the face of the amended lawsuit,

A bit of rhetoric and terminology from local radio might be in order. When the Catholic Pedophile Clergy scandal broke, our afternoon drive-time wags started appending “-Pedophile” to every clerical title. “Father so-and-so” became “Father-Pedophile so-and-so”, our Archbishop (who was seriously asleep at the switch) became “Cardinal-Pedophile (name)”, etc. Even the Pope was snarked as “Patron Saint of Child Molestors”.

(And there was much cheering from the likes of SGM, Calvary Chapel, and other Protestants who still fight the Reformation Wars.)

Applying this to God’s Anointed Elect at SGM (and The Humble One himself), you get “Pastor-Pedophile”, “Head Apostle-Pedophile”, Ceej as “The Humble Pedophile”, etc.

Because what’s good and appropriate for those Catholics is good and appropriate for those Calvinists.

(And I doubt their Male Supremacist doctrines would also go over big if widely known…)

@ Kolya:

Sproul Jr. thinks God created sin because He was longing to be wrathful all over somebody’s you-know-what (for His glory, of course)?

Holy…wow. Just wow.

@ HUG:

“A bit of rhetoric and terminology from local radio might be in order. When the Catholic Pedophile Clergy scandal broke, our afternoon drive-time wags started appending ‘-Pedophile’ to every clerical title. ‘Father so-and-so’ became ‘Father-Pedophile so-and-so,’ our Archbishop (who was seriously asleep at the switch) became ‘Cardinal-Pedophile (name),’ etc. Even the Pope was snarked as ‘Patron Saint of Child Molestors.'”

You’ve said this on here before and I’d just like to put on record how profoundly rude and disrespectful it is for them to have done that. I bet if a different radio station said of all Republicans “Senator-Robber Baron so-and-so” or all Democrats “Representative-Socialist so-and-so,” they would have flipped their lid.

Oh, wait…that’s what talk radio actually does! Which is a big part of the reason I hate it (aside from the endless ads that waste my auditory time).

“That is exactly what I was thinking back when so many commenters at SGMsurvivors were pushing reluctant victims of SGM to go to Covenant Life Church and tell their experience to Ambassadors Of Reconciliation (AoR).”

Me too Patti!!! I was screaming at the computer: Why would you trust anyone the wolves hired? And they were simply dissed again…with the description of angry people with clenched fists. Exactly what did they expect? Do they really not realize how deep this deception runs?

@ Haitch: Thanks so much for the link to the article on the Day of Mourning. I agree that “Forgotten Australians” is apt.

If only the US would do the same for all of the indigenous peoples here… (includes native Hawaiians and other Pacific Islanders).

It’s as if the divorced/widows and widowers have been busted down from generals to privates because they no longer have spouses.

This is *still* difficult for people in larger society (widows especially) and in the church… well. I know that my mom found new friends and a lot of support after my dad dies, both by getting to know other widows in her church (Lutheran) as well as in more “general” social circles.

But… so often, for those in the evangelical world, there is no support – and in many cases, almost nobody else who is a widow or widower. (Since so many churches seem to be geared almost exclusively toward young married couples with kids.)

@numo, you’ve just written the ‘singles and the church’ future post ! I totally agree, especially with the use of the word ‘single’. ‘Unmarried’ as a term is no better. Unfortunately I don’t think relegating ‘singles’ to the bottom of the humanity pile is just in the church but in wider society also. We are not that far still from ‘barren’ and ‘spinster’. Maybe I’ll write some stuff under a pseudonym like that cool universalist guy. Try explaining that you’re single in some Pacific countries – they are astounded and struggle to comprehend it. I had the same conversation with an African guy last week. “Don’t you get lonely?” he asked. Sure, and it can be lonely with a partner and surrounded by family also (oh, and the obligatory homosexuality debate – I pointed him to August last year in TWW and said, ‘read all that week !’) I figured out many years ago that being single or married – neither state is better is better than the other, they’re just different ways of living. I like Schmuley Boteach (probably because he talks so fast, love it) but when he says (paraphrase) that we are all called to be in union with another, well that’s where we part ways. Definitely though, society (which includes churchies) preferences marriage and partnerships above everything. I look forward to the day when we can have a Prime Minister or similar who is unpartnered (like in Love Actually – hee !). I don’t think people can quite handle that concept yet. Blurt over !

PS Another bunch of folks who are also in the ignored/forgotten category are the Chagossians, which I discovered when I heard about Diego Garcia on the interwebs…

Beakerj wrote:

Half of these Pastors would drop dead if they had to deal with a genuine mature woman who hadn’t been brought up in a stunted way. They are very fixated on young sexuality.

Sounds like teenage horny-boyz.

@ Haitch: Oh yes, the people from Chagos! I have a recording by a lady who was forced to leave there when she was young.

and I did not know about Chagos and the Chagossians until very recently – it seems like such a cruel thing to do, no matter *how* strategically important the area might be.

As for prejudices against single people in society, yep… I hear you. And I’ve encountered incomprehension on the part of folks from other countries and cultures as well, even though there are – and always have been – people in their societies who’ve never been married, or else have been and never remarried (by choice or otherwise).

but prejudices are still there toward married people whose spouses are absent. My father had to be away for long periods of time for his job, and I know that there were people who happily invited her to parties and get-togethers when my father was in town. When he wasn’t there, they acted like she didn’t exist. It hurt her badly, and my father hurt for her, too. I didn’t understand it, of course, when I was a child, but I know that my mom was very lonely at times and it was hard to see.

@ Anon 1: One thing I know for certain: the mainline denoms have rarely had this problem – if anything, the elderly outnumber the young in all too many churches today.

Where I live now, there are lots of small country churches, and – sadly – a lot of their members got siphoned off to the local “mega.” (It’s not that big, but if you make adjustments re. the number of people in this area, I suppose it really is one after all. It’s also a pretty hidebound more-or-less fundy church; the other place that attracts people is an NAR-style church run by a guy who’s been known to say things like : women aren’t intelligent enough to name their babies. I wish I was making that up, btw.)

The other thing that struck me about the Sproul Jr tweet was the insensitivity toward and complete lack of understanding of bulimia. He seems the think bulimia is just a choice made by self-absorbed women (I doubt he realises men can be bulimic), when it’s actually an illness. So not only is he advancing very extreme views on birth control, he’s trivialising an serious illness that’s already not taken seriously by much of society.

@ Eagle: Eagle – hey, I’m still in the process of taking baby steps, and i think you are *very* wise to be slow and deliberate in all of this.

Getting through – and past – spiritual abuse takes time. A lot of it. And I do believe you’re on the right track re. your past experiences being (sadly) typical of *some* segments of the church, but by no means all. (No push re. Lutherans or anything, just sayin’… ;))

We go to the SGC church in Apex, so I can clarify a couple points. There used to be a blurb in the bulletin about communion explaining that it was open to all Christians but also asking anyone under church discipline at any church to not participate. It never listed names, in fact we’ve been here 10 years and I’ve never heard of anyone being church disciplined.

There are a few ladies that wear a head covering during the service (I can think of only 3, so you probably saw them all). The passage in 1 Corinthians was mentioned once in a sermon or teaching and whoever was speaking was giving their perspective that it was *not* necessary for Christian woman to wear today. But yes, of course SGM is complementarian.

Before taking Communion, in the churches I’ve attended the pastor of course gives a brief explanation with relevent scriptural references and notes that only those who have made a public profession of faith in Christ (through baptism, etc.), members of a bible-believing church, etc. should partake, etc.

I have never seen a notification in the church bulletin asking individuals who are under church discipline to refrain from coming to the table, nor have I ever heard a pastor reference those under church discipline in his pre-Communion remarks. Ever.

Considering that the actual numbers of church discipline cases are so small, I wonder why the need to emphasize in writing, in the bulletin, which is likely printed weekly, that those under discipline are prohibited from the Communion table?

The conclusions I’d draw as a visitor to said church would be a) they must be dealing with a LOT of people under discipline if they have to write it out in the bulletin; or b) they must have a serious interest in church discipline to highlight it in this manner.

Thank you, Dee!
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

Lin wrote:

Bridget wrote:
@ thatmom: On the first page of that site they have “Patriarch in Training” and “Patriarch” decals . . . speechless!
It’s on men’s underwear and the baby bibs…what is wrong with these people? If I wasn’t told it was a “christian” site, I’d think it Mormon influenced.

It’s on underwear?!?! That sounds like something out of a creepy weird porn parody.

@Debra Baker
Not only would I not break fellowship with you, I would hug you and thank you for using your brain. Although I know that’s not what happened to you.

Complementarianism…well for us, my husband works and I get to stay home and educate our kids, that works in our family and we both love it, but actually I wouldn’t want to say everyone must do things that way, so maybe I’m not really that complementarian 🙂

“The conclusions I’d draw as a visitor to said church would be a) they must be dealing with a LOT of people under discipline if they have to write it out in the bulletin; or b) they must have a serious interest in church discipline to highlight it in this manner.”

Rafiki, I had the same thoughts. It creates a certain culture I do not think is healthy in a long haul. Perhaps it is an SGM policy? I have been reading over at survivors which affirms that many things were rolled out SGM wide such as focus on certain topics, sin, etc. It seems to be more cookie cutter than what I even thought as more churches chime in on the same thing actions, topics, etc and how they were presented.

I am against discipline? No. But I would refer folks to 1 Corin 5. There is certainly no need to put a warning in the bulletin!

When we partake, one of our deacons (sometimes a woman!) will simply say that all believers are welcome to participate. People forget Judas was at the last supper. In fact, I would say there are pastors who should not be partaking so I would watch those bulletin announcements. :o)

"We didn’t really find out many details till more recently, I had no reason to ask questions about it till the brent docs came out. So yes, I have huge concerns and I would not try to defend that stuff."

Lisa, If you have gone there for any length of time, the church should have been talking about it as a Body of Christ. That is what concerns me about SGM.

Whoa, no idea why that showed up in all blue. I selected the earlier comment of Headless Unicorn Guy and the typed my comment afterwards without altering or using any html that I was aware of. Grrrr

Behind in my reading, I decided to have my device “read” the article aloud while I cooked breakfast. I laughed as it pronounced C J “Mawney”. Is he related to Creflo “Dawler”?

@ anon 1:

Anon 1 –

This is something that bothers me more than anything — the removal and marginalizing of the older generations of believers. It doesn’t occur to the YRRs that they are thumbing their noses at the wisdom that comes with age. I think we are seeing the (sad) results of this in the lives and ministries of several groups — I am thinking of MH and SGM in particular. These are ministries that have grown up with all the same age group and demographics. It creates a very unhealthy atmosphere. When the guidlines of scripture concerning elders are ignored, you really create a disaster in the local church. The young elders become doctrine wielding tyrants, instead of servant leaders, because that’s the only thing they know how to do.

@ Bridget: Just a thought… Although I agree that many of the calvinistas are doing exactly what you say, the problem predates them.

Hopefully this is easier to understand Bridget!

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Deb wrote: After reading your proposal to boycott conferences and stop buying the gospelicious books, Martin Luther and the indulgences have come to mind.
And after this, I DON’T want to hear any tongue-clucking about Romish Papists, Selling Indulgences, and Pedophile Priests. All too often, it comes from the likes of God’s Truly Elect like SGM.

Not sure I understand the point of this demand. Is it to say that its fine to criticize SGM, using derogatory language such as “God’s Truly Elect” but off limits to say anything about “Romish Papists”?

Who considers themselves Gods Truly Elect? Are they in error and worthy to be derided only if they exist outside of The One True Church, which is headed by someone who claims infallibility? A hierarchy similiar to the one constructed by two men whose religious sensibilities were conditioned by the Roman Catholic Church?

Are the similarities between SGM leaders covering up incidences of pedophilia in order to protect the reputation of the organization in which it occurred not to be compared to the centuries old criminal misconduct of the RCC, that has done the same, resulting in the corruption of countless lives?

Are the selling of books written by one of these ‘holy men’ who consider themselves Christ’s representatives, direct members of Christ’s priesthood in the sense Catholic priests do, not to be thought of as indulgences?

And is nothing to be mentioned of Martin Luther here at The WARTBURG Watch??

“Me thinks the lady doth protest too much” at any hint of derision regarding the RCC.

“Tisk, tisk” <—clucking my tongue at the comment's unreasonable and hypocritical demand

numo wrote:

@ Evie: I think you might be missing the irony in his comment… he’s Catholic, and he can tell you better than I about all the Catholic-bashing he’s heard from holier than thou-type Protestants. It’s not about trying to cover up for the child abuse in the RC church.

I can understand all the catholic bashing. I can understand if someone were catholic how that would sting, especially as the topic centers on pedophilia. Surely the RCC has taken a lot of heat for the problem of hiding pedophile priests within its ranks, and justifiably so. What I dont understand then is why a member of the RCC would say something to the effect that he doesnt want anyone bashing the RCC and go on to suggest that “all too often it comes from the likes of God’s Truly Elect”? What ‘comes all too often’?

I think HUG needs to buy a one of John Piper’s books or a shard of dishware from the Last Supper from his priest or something for that comment. Who is he kidding!?

@ Evie: My suggestion: you might want to take some time to read HUG’s previous comments, both here and at internetmonk.com

But hey, he can address your concerns far better than I ever could! (He’s in CA, so will likely get back on this thread later on…)

dee wrote:

Stormy
Oh yeah the answer to the pastor/lightbulb joke? (How many pastors does it take)
None. God has predestined when the light will be on. Calvinists do not change light bulbs. They simply read the instructions and pray the light bulb will be one that has been chosen to be changed.

Better yet, a light bulb which is always on, and never needs changed.
http://www.centennialbulb.org/cam.htm

@ Bridget: Put another way, “There is nothing new under the sun.” (Prior to the advent of the internet, no less.)

@ Anon 1: I have a feeling that this is how every generation tries to more or less reinvent the wheel.

As for breaking with the Catholic church, Luther was genuinely trying to reform it from within, until he was excommunicated. I suspect that many others were attempting to do the same – though likely their names are largely lost to history. (Since “ordinary people” rarely show up in official records prior to the 20th century, and even then, the vast majority of us escape the notice of those who actually write the history books. For the Reformation era, it’s *much* more so, as so few people were literate.)

Lets hope so Numo because it came across like he’s saying hypocrisy is more rampant within the ranks of people like those in SGM, who think of themselves as “God’s Truly Elect” and then get into trouble for the same kinds of things the RCC has been in trouble for, which they may (or may not have been) outspoken critics of.

Clearly HUG is in agreement with many of the problems being observed here at TWW and has joined the chorus of those who agree the issues we are discussing are problems in the church. But what seems to be his perspective is we are talking about problems as they affect “the church” outside the RCC. As if to say, “Ah ha! See, its not fair for you to deride Catholics and DO NOT use derogatory phrases such as “Romish” or “Papist” or speak of “Indulgences,” or make any such comparisons because you, too, are guilty of the same things! And those that do that kind of thing are those that think of themselves as ‘God’s TRULY Elect,’ the ones that think they’re better than Catholics and have a right to throw stones at the RCC.”

It would seem to me if the irony exists anywhere, it lies in the suggestion that those outside the Organization that assumes it’s the True Church led by a man who assumes he’s God’s Truly Elect (as do RCC Bishops and Priests)are more at fault for their sins of hypocrisy than those that are within an organization that claims to be the True Church!

Let us not work to minimize the awful, terrible, tragic damage that has been done to children by the hands of men who dispense sacraments with one hand (as Christ’s Representative, a direct member of His priesthood, Mediator between God and man) and with the other fondle and abuse innocent children.

Deb wrote:

I appreciate your transparency. I hope you and your fellow congregants understand that Dee and I are trying to address systemic problems in a ministry that appears to have caused harm to our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Yes, I see what you’re trying to address and I have a lot of agreement with you and I appreciate both you and Dee bringing things out into the open. I totally support all the people that have left our church in the past year. I personally know people that have been hurt and I know people that have benefited (which in no way justifies the bad stuff)…to me it’s a mixed bag.

Evie wrote:

Sounds like Lisa is saying the benefit is she “gets to stay at home” and be a dependent. Pure complementarianism Debra. Keeping women in positions of dependency because, after all, they’re subordinates and love it woohoo!!

I think some more details will help here. I have a master’s degree and worked for 5+ years before we had kids. I can certainly get a job and support myself and family if I needed or wanted to. I am blessed that we don’t need to both be working, so I’m able to stay home with my kids and still live comfortably. I wouldn’t consider the time and effort I put into homeschooling them a “position of dependency”. It’s hard work (although as I said, I love it). But I know it is not for everyone and there are other good options for kids’ education. If the wife loves her work, keep working! I’m not against that. I just mean this works well in our family and yes it looks complementarian, but I wouldn’t prescribe it for everyone else.

Lisa wrote:

@Debra Baker
Not only would I not break fellowship with you, I would hug you and thank you for using your brain. Although I know that’s not what happened to you.
Complementarianism…well for us, my husband works and I get to stay home and educate our kids, that works in our family and we both love it, but actually I wouldn’t want to say everyone must do things that way, so maybe I’m not really that complementarian

Note: I got to Lisa’s response and no farther down the thread but I appreciate the gracious response. I, too, feel fortunate to have been able to stay home with my children until they went to school and I, again, feel fortunate to have been afforded the opportunity to get my education.

So, I have gone the traditional mom route and the non-traditional student route. Similarly, my five girls are across the spectrum but mostly in non-traditional careers as I have a teacher, a neonatologist, an estimator (and Marine) An Engineer, and a budding roboticist. I think our temperaments are gifts given to us by God and refined by environment. I doubt God would have so richly blessed my daughters if He didn’t want them to contribute to bettering the earth by using their talents.

@ Evie: I think it would be most helpful for you to talk directly with HUG.

He does have a rather unique way of expressing things, not unlike Sopwith (aka Sopy), another frequent commenter here.

But hey, I’m not a referee, and maybe was overstepping by trying to act as such.

Best,
numo

@ Evie: Also, by “talk directly,” I was thinking about right here, in the comment sections.

Apologies for not making that clear.

“Could it be that CJ is really Chance the Gardener?”

I love this! Yes! CJ is a celebrity because of sheer force and ambition. There really is nothing there. I am constantly shocked when I hear his sermons or teachings at how shallow they really are and doctrinally bizarre. But if that sort of thing is all you hear from him or his minions. I think his celebrity is all wrapped up in his persona. Much like Piper who is not exactly shallow but makes himself appear deep with verbosity, lots of adjectives, verbs and confusion with redefinition of concepts words that make him sound like some sort of anointed prophet.

Hearing some of the surivors talk about how being acknowledged by CJ was such a huge thing for them made me realize it really is cult of personality.

Numo, I understand. Also, it would appear Ive made a big deal about this because of all my technical difficulties: the first comment that appeared in all blue, and two comments one after the other in which I didn’t know or intend for the first comment (which wasnt complete, it was missing the last sentence) to post! Call it LIFE or whatever, but I sometimes find myself in situations where I say something but evidence to the contrary presents itself. I didnt mean to make a mountain out of a molehill but it sure does look that way! I certainly dont mean him any harm! My comment was intended as a healthy challenge, that is all.

@ anon 1: You do understand that I have a very “mixed” opinion about many of Luther’s writings and ideas, no?

I think he was a complicated, difficult and often completely irascible person who may well have been struggling with mental illness, a seizure disorder of some kind and/or other serious physical and mental illnesses.

He wrote *many* hateful things; “On the Jews and their Lies” is by far the most poisonous and – as it turned out – lethal. (The Nazis used it as a justification for many of their atrocities.)

But… Luther the person is *not* the same thing as Lutheran theology and/or churches. We’re kind of similar to Anglicans in that there’s a huge range of belief and practice under the “Lutheran” heading. As we’ve discussed before in comments, the ultra-fundamentalist Wisconsin Synod (WELS) has little in common with the synod I belong to, the ELCA (Evangelical Luth. Church in America).

it can be hard to summarize as so many Lutherans who came here – and who live(d) in Europe – speak a variety of languages, from Hungarian to Finnish, Norwegian, even (here) Italian! (There was an Italian Lutheran church in the heart of Erie, PA, very close to where I once lived when I was in college – I worked with a woman from that church and she was *very* surprised to find out that I had never, ever met an Italian Lutheran before!)

At any rate, immigrants here conducted services in their own languages for long periods of time, and development was/is diverse. Those Scandinavian Lutherans that Garrison Keillor talks about on A Prairie Home Companion might share the same (or very similar) liturgies, but their culture – and, sometimes, their beliefs – are often a world apart from those of Lutherans from a different cultural/linguistic background, in other places.

I know you think very poorly of Luther; that’s a given. I don’t exactly feel like I can hold him up as a shining example of A Perfect Christian (TM) – he was, in many ways, a mess.

he was also – and I think this is very important re. understanding his beliefs and outlook – a late medieval man. He wasn’t even close to being modern. There’s a great book on him – written by a German named Heiko Olbermann – that examines his life and work from that perspective; might be worth some of your time. I personally have difficulty with things like the line in “A Mighty Fortress is Our God” where he talks about “this world / with devils filled,” etc. etc.

OK, I’m rambling now! Most of you regulars know that I’m trying to keep my mind occupied, also that I’m fascinated by church history *and* cultural diversity.

So, no worries if you don’t feel like reading the above essay! 🙂

Dee & Deb, I sent you an article that might be a good Exhibit A of negative Christian stereotypes of singles to address in your single series, if you were thinking of going that direction.

Numo: such an interesting & educational comment about Luther…really helpful. I find him difficult to the point that I’ve avoided Lutheran Theology, which you’re helping to change.

Did you ever get my email btw?

Thank you Deb and Dee — a thousand and one thank yous — for all your research, time, care for victims, being a light, voicing your concern without seeming bitter (like some bloggers whom I can barely read anymore). Your blog and Wade Burleson’s blog have become my go-to resources. I am still in a Southern Baptist Church and appreciate your watchful eye on our Convention. I do not often leave a comment, but wanted to say that I have learned much from you and deeply appreciate what you do!!

dee wrote:

Welcome. I give you props for joining in the fray. We are not fans of SGM and I know that your pastor is part of the in crowd. Do you do a blog? I recently think I saw one written by a woman at the church in Apex.

I don’t have a blog but a few ladies at church do. For those SGC Apex readers, I’m the Lisa with two boys and a girl…there are two other Lisas in our church 🙂

“in fact we’ve been here 10 years and I’ve never heard of anyone being church disciplined.” How would you have heard? Aren’t these things hush hush unless, of course, you make the error of trying to leave the church and then it is announced to the congregation and then to the church those poor people try to find refuge in?

I actually just meant that no one had been “kicked out” since we’ve been here. As it’s been explained in our church, they would announce if someone was being church disciplined/kicked out. You’re right that they might have started confronting someone about something that had the potential to get them kicked out and I would not know about it. I’m sure there’s been things like that.

Here is what our bulletin says this morning “The Lord’s Supper: What is it? The Lord’s Supper is a gracious ordinance established by Christ through which we remember the atoning death of our Lord (Luke 22:14-20), reflect on our union as a church body, and anticipate his return (1 Cor 11:17-34).
Who can participate? Following the prescriptions of the Bible, we invite only those who are born-again by faith and not currently under church discipline to participate in the Lord’s Supper.”

I do read Survivors. We’ve talked to our pastors, we’re asking questions, it’s troubling. We’re not the only ones that are troubled by it. Some have left, some remain. And I thought the new name idea sounded like USSR as well 🙂

@ Evie
I really wasn’t trying to justify complementarianism. I just mean that my family actually looks like a “complementarian” family, but we don’t necessarily think everyone should do what we’re doing, so I probably wouldn’t even label myself that way. We’re not into the whole stay-at-home-daughter thing. We plan that our daughter will go to college and be able to support herself in some area that she’s gifted in. Our church is very diverse in some of these issues. There *are* families I know that don’t want their girls to go to college and would rather *just* prepare them to be homemakers but they are not the majority in our church.

Our sr pastor did a seminar a few years ago about educational options. Their children are grown and they utilized public and private schools and homeschooling and all their kids went to college. They’re not recommending a one-size-fits-all legalistic approach at our church (though I know some other SGM churches might have and ours might have in the past).

I’m not saying everything’s rosy. But I just want to clear up when there are misconceptions (like the idea that our church actually published names of people who could not take communion). If people that are less aware of what’s going on in SGM start reading here and see false statements about their church, it does fuel their thinking that this is all a bunch of gossip & slander.

anon 1

In regards to the pastor that stepped down. It all happened before we moved here. It didn’t occur to me that there would be anything sketchy. All I heard was that he decided to step down because of family/parenting issues. They were still attending the church when we moved here. Later they moved to another church in the area.

There wasn’t anything that made me think I should ask questions about it. I hadn’t really heard of a pastor stepping down because of parenting issues before, but honestly I thought it sounded humble. Now I know it can really be covering up all kinds of problems and not just a humble “stepping down”. But I didn’t know that at the time. Reading the brent docs made me see that.

Lisa said, “Our sr pastor did a seminar a few years ago about educational options.”

In typical SGM style, most/all SGM churches did that and all about at the same time, too. Perhaps CLC led the way and they all followed?

In any case, it is quite normal for individual SGM churches to institute a policy change, begin a new program, preach a new message, use a new software program, carry a new book, rename care groups, etc., as if the pastors were led by the Lord to do so, only to find out once people start blogging that a directive came down from on high and pretty much all the SGM churches obeyed in a two-week window.

It may be put in nicer terms than an order from high command, but that is still how it functions.

Lisa –

Oops! I’m the one that made the misstatement about “names in the bulletin.” Sorry about that. I certainly didn’t mean to cause a problem.

That being said, I still think this “we invite only those who are born-again by faith and not currently under church discipline to participate in the Lord’s Supper” is a strange statement. If someone was under church discipline, I would think that they had been informed about the restriction on communion and could be accountable before God without being reminded every week. It’s not a very inviting statement for visitors to read. I would leave it with the person and God. They are not harming others, only themselves, if indeed they needed to be put out of the Church.

It seems odd for someone to come on TWW concerned about a misstatement in one comment (not even in the actual post). Considering all the problems at SGM, their bizarre blog posts over the past few years, Brent’s docs, the way SGM has treated churches and individuals in their family of churches, and lawsuits, it seems that there are more important things to be concerned about than an errant comment on this blog.

Again, please forgive the error in my comment. I hope it hasn’t caused anyone to stumble.

Deb wrote:

Dee said:

“I would have been thrown out within a week of arrival because I ask lots and lots of questions and I have read reports that people in this environment are told that awkward question are a sinful craving for answers. Can you imagine?”

Sounds like the Gospel According to Warhammer 40K:
“Questions lead to Thinking.
Thinking leads to Doubt.
Doubt leads to Heresy.
Heresy demands Retribution.
Blessed is the mind too small for Doubt.”

Dee:
A few reasons we’ve stayed so far are that we want to help change things at our church, we love the people at our church, and in spite of everything that’s been revealed in the past 18 months, there *has* been good teaching and fellowship at our SGM church. I’m not saying there aren’t problems, not at all, but some of it is finally being addressed and I am hopeful about some of the good change that’s happening on the local level. Pastors are encouraging the congregation to take initiative in starting ministries within the church, especially focusing on outreach, evangelism etc…things we’ve typically been weak at. They haven’t shown the mission presentation the past two years, but actually took up an offering for Habitat for Humanity which is going to be building houses near our church (and our church is forming a team to help). We talk to people in our church including pastors about the SGM issues a lot. If we hadn’t seen any changes we’d be gone by now. That said, I don’t think all the problems can be undone. For now, we’ll see if we can make a difference.

I also said “If people that are less aware of what’s going on in SGM start reading here and see false statements about their church, it does fuel their thinking that this is all a bunch of gossip & slander.” I didn’t say *I* thought this was G&S, these are public figures and it’s our church, they affect us so I’m fine with talking about this. But obviously *some* people in SGM think it’s G&S and they might read this blog (I don’t know). And so before anyone jumped to the conclusion about Apex having a list of disciplined people in the bulletin, I just wanted to clear it up since I go there. Just trying to be helpful. Did not mean to come across as nit picky or annoying 🙂

Bridget:
No problem! I don’t usually comment here but I read the posts (don’t have time to make it through the comments very often), and if my church is mentioned I take particular interest, that’s all 🙂 I really am concerned about everything else, I just really don’t have time to post and I rarely have anything that would be useful to add anyway.

@ dee:

You’re welcome . . . it was my double entendre for the week 🙂

@ Julie Anne:

re: all that stuff ’bout postmodern yadda-yadda.

dee on Sun Jan 27, 2013 at 01:45 PM inspired me to riff on something about the near nothing of a sermon that seemed everything, if anything. But that’s the thing … the experience seems to have required more of what the listeners brought to the “banquet” rather than the empty sermonic plate provided to them for their potluck.

@ Lisa: Lisa, no offense, but what you might not be seeing is that “getting out” probably won’t solve anything.

The entire administrative and “leadership” structure of your church – and all of the others (both in SGM and those that have recently opted out) HAS to change in order for good thing to result. if it doesn’t, then you’re in the same bind.

I think you will probably be waiting for a LONG time (translation: ’til hell freezes over) for significant positive changes, if you choose to stay.

My suggestion to you: please get out while you can. it’s all going to implode (is in the process of imploding).

Signed,
a 30-year veteran of discipleship/shepherding movement churches (which SGM is, whether they currently use that term or not)

@ Bridget: I did a double take when I saw that phrase! ; )

@ Eagle: What I was trying to say is that the SGM defenders sound SO MUCH like the defenders of Joe Paterno and his pals, it’s not funny.

There are *many* of them up here, and they are extremely vocal. It sickens me in the same way that you’re sickened by the stuff SGM has been pulling. (I have friends who are 8still* in SGM churches… couldn’t agree with you more. I worry about them and want them to get the hell out of there!!!)

@ Eagle: No worries, Eagle!

I’m still fascinated with your visit to the Apex church! Thanks to Lisa for explaining that three women who go there do wear veils. When I heard you say this before, I wondered if they were visiting from elsewhere, because the only person I ever saw wearing a veil in an SGM was the mother of a member who came every now and then, and sometimes wore a fabulous black mantilla more suited for flamenco dancing than church in a middle school, simply because she was dramatic and not an SGMer.

We knew the original pastor of the SGM church in Apex. He was as genuine as it comes, though I’m sure no one was immune to the kool-aid. But since the good guys don’t last long in SGM, he was de-gifted because of a child’s ‘rebellion’, whatever that meant. He was gone long before your visit. His wife died from a brain tumor. The only time I saw the Apex SGM church was when the funeral procession passed by on the way to the cemetery across the street, which seemed ironic at the time. I was surprised to see that it was housed in what looked like a former school building and seemed awfully small compared to the grand warehouse-store edifices SGM seems to favor.

The SGM we went to for far too many years never wrote a word about communion in the bulletin. When we first attended, they passed out the grape juice in small paper cups, and people were told to take communion in family groups, including children, or with people in their home group. I was gone by the time restrictions on communion were in vogue.

The change in communion directives is one of the things that shows the morphing of PDI into SGM into hyper-craziness. I believe they were already hyper-authoritarian back in the PDI days, but were very careful to hide it behind the gossip/slander veil.

When we first heard that there was a new church in town that looked attractive to us, we’d never heard of PDI or Mahaney. We talked with some people in our PCA church about it. They’d been involved in the Fairfax PDI church as college students. I was really surprised to find out they weren’t going to run over to the new church and hang out with their old buddies. But years later they told me that when they were engaged to be married, one of their best friends, a very well-known pastor’s wife (writer of books/videos on parenting that were later removed) told them that the Lord had told her that they were not to get married. Seriously. I am not making this up. In the end, the husband of this woman was the pastor who married them. How crazy is that?

If PDI people were running around making these kinds of strange heebee-jeebee statement and labeling them them prophecy, no wonder the head honchos wanted to minimize the charisma and accentuate doctrine. The problem is, they didn’t get either one right.

@ Nickname: Yes, it’s totaly hyper-spritualized shepherding insanity.

I know who you mean, too. I have friends who were married by that guy, back in 1985. They’re still members at FFX. 🙁

Dee, on Sunday you asked, “Could it be that CJ is really Chance the Gardener?”

I’d like to provide some perspective and history, to help everyone understand how it could be possible, that the man who talks and acts in such silly ways today could ever have commanded the rapt and eager attention of audiences composed of thousands of intelligent people.

Way back in the early days of TAG and CLC (mid-70s through mid-90s), CJ Mahaney really did have things to say, and the Holy Spirit used him remarkably in changing my life and the lives of many others. He used many Scriptures to advance and support his points.

He wasn’t sin-sniffing then, but challenged his listeners in an exhortative way to understand Bible times and Bible characters through scripture. Many times he told us that he tried to imagine actually being a part of the Bible story he was teaching – being with the disciples as real men who really couldn’t understand what Jesus was talking about (without the Holy Spirit’s help). He challenged us to live according to scripture and not according to pop culture or dead religious tradition.

I’ll never forget what he said at the end of one TAG meeting – something close to this:

“You all feel great right now, after worshipping God and listening to an encouraging message. But what about tomorrow? You’re going to wake up with a whole new set of emotions, and by the end of the day, you’ll have another set. By Friday, will you even remember how you feel tonight? We can’t run our lives on emotions – on how we feel about ourselves or God – we need to know and believe what scripture tells us about God and ourselves.”

Now remember, this was back before the sin-sniffing period of the mid-90s through now. This was when we sang the wonderful song based on Peter’s letter (1 Pet 2:9):
————
We are a chosen race/A royal priesthood/A holy nation/A people for God’s own possession!

That we might display his excellencies/that we might display his excellencies
He has called us out of darkness/Into his marvelous light/That we might display his excellencies!
——–
CJ’s teaching and theology was very positive about God and about ourselves in Christ. And he had a lot to be positive about: though the charismatic revival peaked around 1970 with the Jesus Movement in California, in truth there were many, many people still being baptized/filled with the Holy Spirit, and getting a totally different understanding of what life in Christ could be, than what we’d grown up with.

I’d been a Christian, born-again through Billy Graham’s ministry in the early 70s, but attending a dead Baptist church and feeling hopeless – because as I read my Bible I couldn’t see any way to make the New Testament experience happen in my own life, and didn’t know any Christian who was. Until a friend shared tapes of Larry and CJ teaching at TAG, I didn’t know it was possible to have a serious walk with God and see God touch and change people’s lives radically. But then, to my great surprise, it happened to me after I began going to TAG every Tuesday night! First God began doing wonderful things inside me to remove the despair.

Then, after two years of attending TAG but never seeking out the baptism of the Spirit (too afraid!), God did it himself to me, one day when I was alone praying. I was totally astonished, then I was filled with joy and a powerful hunger to read the Word.

The other thing I want to say is that people have to remember what US culture was like in the mid-70s. We had just come through a terrible period of social, cultural and political turmoil – assassinations, Vietnam War and protests, cities ablaze with race riots, gas lines from the energy crisis, economic difficulties and wage-and-price controls, and the generation gap of rebellion against our WW2-generation parents. Celebration of fornication and adultery was being thrown in our faces everywhere – within a few years the Best Movie Oscar went from The Sound of Music (about a singing nun!) to Midnight Cowboy (about a gigolo and a bum in NYC). There was Marxist protest around the world – from Paris’ Danny the Red, to Tom Hayden and the SDS in Chicago, and the violence of Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown and the Black Panthers. Oh, and the Cold War was in full swing, as well.

For many of us growing up at the time, the mainline/denominational churches had nothing to offer us that would help us understand and cope with the rapid and frightening changes underway in the society. For me, finding TAG with its scripture-filled worship songs, scripture-based teaching that emphasized our practical response to the gospels and other New Testament writings (especially Acts) and the life-changing presence of the Holy Spirit was a life-saving mercy of God.

When I started attending TAG, CJ and Larry were in the middle of a long series entitled “The Unshakeable Kingdom” in which they contrasted the Kingdom of God being built in our generation, versus the built-on-sand culture that was changing radically and no longer supporting godly/biblical values anymore. They were calling us out, to enter the lifeboat of the Kingdom, and reach out to the unsaved.

Just out of high school, desperately seeking evidence of God being real in today’s world and seeing little around me, the teaching, worship and testimonies that I heard weekly in TAG were truly life-saving and life-giving to me. And God began to change me, even before he suddenly baptized me in the Spirit. I began to be able to control my tongue and my temper, as never before, for instance. That was something I’d despaired of ever being able to do, and here it was happening, without effort on my part, as I attended TAG weekly and began to pray and read scripture with hope for the first time since becoming a believer.

All this to say: whatever CJ is now, he didn’t start out that way. In 1975, he was NOT Chance the Gardener – empty, clueless, speaking fluff to people too stupid to see through it. God’s power and wisdom was in CJ’s teachings, God’s joyful and healing presence was very much present in TAG meetings, and was still definitely there in the early years of CLC. This, despite all the bad stuff we now know was already going on in CLC!

I think it was not until CJ rejected what the Holy Spirit was doing in 1994-96, and focused solely on “The Cross” and “indwelling sin,” that the Spirit finally lifted in Ichabod fashion. This is the point I tried to make, in the blog comment I wrote in 2006 that pre-dated and anticipated SGM Survivors, which Kris reproduced on this early page of her blog:

http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=5

Now (at this time), however, I believe that because he has hardened his heart against the Lord, CJ is cut off from God’s Spirit and wisdom. He is reduced to defending himself and saying empty things, with wild motions and emotions taking the place of Spirit-led, Christ-centered, scripture-based teaching.

It’s a sad thing, and ironically so similar to the end of Solomon’s life. (It was about Solomon’s ungodly end that CJ was trying to teach, on that Sunday in 1994 in Missouri, when the Spirit broke out in the congregation with holy laughter, and CJ was unable to continue his message.) If only he will humble himself before the Lord, and renew his relationship, before it is too late.

Lisa wrote:

There was one situation we became aware of at our church (not abuse) with a family that left years ago where they had been hurt by people in our church and I asked a pastor about it. He said they had made attempts to reconcile with them and the family said they had also. I wish they would actually be able to reconcile, but so far they have not.

Lisa, I would encourage you to go to those individuals and ask them what happened. You will probably find that their stories are very different from the pastor’s version. That has been my experience in talking with people who left the SGM franchise of which I am a former member (CrossWay Charlotte). While I was in, I never really questioned what the pastors told us. That is, until Brent’s documents were published.

Nickname: My husband is from a Mennonite background, so I’m used to seeing head coverings. The couple ladies in our church just wear a scarf or something, not a lace doily kind of covering. Our building was an old sewing machine assembly place or something like that. We did add on to the building, but the property isn’t all that big and I think 400-500 people would be the max this building could support with one service (which I think our pastors prefer to stick with one service).

Numo: I would see our church leaving SGM as a first step…you’re right that it wouldn’t “fix” things. But I do see things changing for the better. We ran the Single & Parenting program and they’re setting up a DivorceCare group this spring. We didn’t often reach out to people in those kind of situations before.

Dee: You said “First you address those who have been hurt, including little children. Then you are welcome to say why SGM Apex is not like all the others which seems to be a theme of all the churches which are staying.” The only reason I explained why I’m still at Apex is because you guys asked 🙂 I feel awful for the those who’ve been hurt. I have reached out to a couple of them that I personally know (not physical or sexual abuse, but hurt nonetheless).

Moniker: I talked to those involved, not just the pastor. There were some bad choices, things handled badly really on both sides, but not the deception you see in some of the bigger stories like in the lawsuit.

I have a lot of sympathy for Lisa, especially given her willingness to show up and contribute to this discussion.

For those asking her why she isn’t leaving her church- this is NOT an easy thing to do. A lot of us know exactly how hard it can be to leave a church (some of us against our will)- a lot of times our entire social circle is built around relationships at our church. Losing that is not something anybody can do lightly.

In fact, so much of real church is what happens in the individual relationships, not the sermon, music, or what’s going on in the leadership. I realize at some point we all have to make decisions about where we’re going to stand and sometimes the right place to stand requires a cost, but for most of us it took a process of coming to understand where the right place to stand is. Challenging is good and healthy, but I think it’s also important to show compassion as we dialog with willing and open hearts.

And it’s pretty clear to me that Lisa did not come here trying to make complmentariansim a primary issue- as I understand it, Dee and Deb are all about not making secondary issues primary issues, so unless eglitarianism has become a primary issue, it doesn’t seem like it’s within the spirit of the blog to push Lisa on this point and force her to defend something she doesn’t feel strongly about.

Hopefully those who attend SGM churches will start waking up to the issues of the church and taking a stand with the survivors. It’s not going to happen overnight- it’s a process and TWW is a huge part of it with their sounding of the alarm.

Jeff S.,

I, too, feel for Lisa and appreciate her participation here and agree that comp/egal is a secondary issue just like parenting is a secondary issue and I agree that it seems to be a secondary issue to Lisa but (and, as you might imagine, it is a big but) the leadership at SGM have turned gender roles into a primary issue.

Jeff S wrote:

For those asking her why she isn’t leaving her church- this is NOT an easy thing to do.

This is how it goes:

1. Open door.
2. Walk throw door.
3. Turn, smile, blow a kiss and say, “Good riddance!” as you walk away

Get your badass on. Nothing to it but to do it.

Debra Baker wrote:

Jeff S.,
I, too, feel for Lisa and appreciate her participation here and agree that comp/egal is a secondary issue just like parenting is a secondary issue and I agree that it seems to be a secondary issue to Lisa but (and, as you might imagine, it is a big but) the leadership at SGM have turned gender roles into a primary issue.

I understand- but that is a question for the leadership, not for her. She is an adult who can use her own mind, and apparently does.

I think both Evie and Jeff S.’s comments are valid. Voting with your feet is probably the healthiest thing to do, but as Jeff said, if you have years of relationships tied up, that’s a huge emotional toll. It’s not just your relationships, it’s the relationships of the children – 10 years – that’s a lifetime to children.

I don’t know how this church treats members who leave, but in our situation, there was far more destruction that occurred after leaving than when we stayed. It makes me think that those who have remained may be realizing this and that’s why they stay.

One thing to consider, Lisa – I knew my church was bad when I was there. After I left and after months and even years of processing what went on, it became evident that it was far worse than I had originally thought. If there is any thought that your church is unhealthy, I hope this motivates you in the right direction, Lisa. My heart goes out to you, though, especially considering the relationships that might be severed. That’s very painful.

Julie Anne wrote:

One thing to consider, Lisa – I knew my church was bad when I was there. After I left and after months and even years of processing what went on, it became evident that it was far worse than I had originally thought. If there is any thought that your church is unhealthy, I hope this motivates you in the right direction, Lisa. My heart goes out to you, though, especially considering the relationships that might be severed. That’s very painful.

This- so very much this. I left my church because I had to (not under discipline, but because I was made to feel unwelcome enough that I knew I had to leave), and I wished so very much I’d left earlier (as I’d been advised by long time friend who I ignored). Waiting until it becomes personal hurts a lot more 🙁

Jeff, you didn’t leave by choice?

Evie wrote:

Jeff, you didn’t leave by choice?

I depends on what you mean by choice. I was fired from my position as the music leader and was continually called to repentance during my personal interactions with members and leadership. To me, I really had no choice but to leave. But I wasn’t barred from attending.

The interaction with Lisa here gives us insight into how deep and pervasive the cognitive dissonance can go in cultic organizations. I will be the first one to admit that SGM has attracted the educated middle classes even though education was not an issue for their leadership. So what was the draw? We have to take into consideration the emotional component of why educated people would hand over so much power over them to leaders. Well, first of all, it is not crouched in those terms at all. These are people who “cared” for them. Love bombing works.

There are a few red flags in Lisa’s very ironic comments which reflect the sort of “totalitarian niceness” we see in many of these sorts of organizations that go beyond the surface where the real evil of the organization lies for those in the system who have NO idea. They would never willingly support evil. That is why it is a closed system.

One comment in passing was the “good teaching” reference. There are several reasons why we can know NOW from documents and many first hand accounts across the SGM spectrum that the ‘good teaching’ and all the other aspects of the SGM family….the focus, teaching, topics, events, etc…… orchestrated from on high. We also know that Lisa’s pastor was on the recent polity committee and believes in the hierarchical structure that has allowed SGM to operate as it has for years. (It is really no different if you analyze it). This polity structure really works for folks who check their volition at the door but it sounds like they have been given more input. It is smoke and mirrors.

So, “good teaching” really boils down to the cult tactic of “Doctrine over people”. Good teaching is more important and valued over the systemic treatment of people.

But we know that “good teaching” results in LOVE and putting people before the brands image or anyone’s career. “Good teaching” would not result in what we have seen with the pew sitters totally ignorant of how their money has been used or the evil of their leaders, system wide.

Another red flag was up earlier when Lisa mentioned that she wanted to correct something in the blog post so that it would keep SGM people from thinking TWW was about “gossip and slander”.

This is a huge red flag. It is the mantra of cultic systems. While many of us here think of readers as adults who can discern, SGM has no such thinking. In fact, they do not know the definition of slander or gossip. It is simply a mantra used to dismiss or deflect from serious problems. And it is always used for systems that operate as closed systems which has been SGM’s SOP for a long long time.

It is Lisa’s normal. But that is no excuse.

So what should be normal? Is it the folks that speak out and make a ruckus over abusive systems? Would normal be that SGM pew sitters are so appalled by what they find out about how their system operated that allowed such things to go on for so long that they are broken by what they have believed and supported? They rush to aid victims and feel completely free to rebuke the leaders who have used and supported the system. They refuse to give one more penny to the system or support any aspect of the system for fear they are covering for more evil.

Thankfully there are those who have left SGM who have done just that, and I am honored to have conversed with a few who are really going deep with what they believed and why and are finding freedom in Christ and brokenness for the victims.

Why doesn’t that happen more, though? I have my theories but they are too long to get into here. What I have written sounds mean, I know. But nothing is “meaner” than children being molested, friends. There are always going to be evil people who molest children. BUT…..what makes that so easy for them to do is all the folks who look the other way, work hard to suppress the truth, and those who spend time defending a system that made it easier for the abusers, perverts, etc.

That is the part of evil I will never be able to fathom.

Agree with everyone expressing the great difficulty associated with leaving these churches.

Yes To Jeff’s #4, you will lose all of those friends.

Yes, it will be like a divorce with the SOB husband getting all the friends.

And Jeff was forced out but his abusive pastors were just real good at their own game.

In my opinion, schmucks that would defend pedophilia with the first amendment to the constitution are cunning linguists. Evil but cunningly evil.

Anon1–

You are so right. The power of love bombing is unreal. I can often close my eyes and think back to what it felt like. It was indescribable. I had like tons of new best friends. It was like high school all over again–being the new popular kid. And the unfortunate thing, is that it never stopped. So it was really hard to tell who was genuine. After it was all said and done–the answer: two.

“For me, leaving showed me just who my real friends were. Not that there was any animosity. There was just nothing because my relationships were all based on meetings and projects. It was fake.”

Bingo. Christian relationships have Christ at the center. Not a church or system. No church brand or system could separate brothers and sisters in Christ. That was a real hard one for me to learn. To unlearn it, we sometimes have to learn what Christianity is really about. It is a long road. And to borrow from Scott Peck, A road less travelled, unfortunately. (Don’t worry I disagree with Peck a lot but also think many people would benefit from reading “People of the Lie” to get a real feel for how what looks to be normal can really be evil)

Anon-

I learned that the hard way. At the time I had decided I was leaving, the person I had spent the most time with, that I would have considered a best “friend”, when I said to them I was leaving, immediately, almost with no thought needed, said like a script “yes, I was expecting you to say that. Well… (sighed) we won’t be seeing much of each other or hanging out much anymore.” I said, well, I dont see why me going to another church would change our relationship. We do everything together. I love spending time with you. She replies, “Well, most of what we do is church stuff/events, and you’ll be getting to know the people at your new church and investing there, and I am here, and all of my energy has to be directed here.” I replied, “well, I thought we do many things together becuase we are friends and that’s simply what friends do.” She just kinda looked at me, eyes filled with kool-aid and … that was it.

I was devastated. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. I think I cried for several months. After all, I had been genuine about my friendship and love offered to this person. I meant every bit of it, and I didn’t see why what church I went to would change any of that. But little did I know, that we were “friends” simply because of the church, not in spite of it. We were “friends” because of an agreed upon doctrine and theology, not because our hearts truly cared for the other. I learned that I was dispensable. And from that, it was a snowball effect.

In the end, my life is INFINITELY better and I love who I am TODAY. I would never have those people in my life again. They simply were not good enough for me in the end. Talk about casting pearls…

Anon1–

I love how you broke down Lisa’s responses above and really picked out what we are seeing here. That was very helpful for me. “Good teaching” like marriage, and the local church, are the idols in this type of “Christian” cult/high-demand control group culture. As you say, theology trumps love every time. It’s like having a spade to win that hand, when everyone else has diamonds. In this culture, it wins EVERY time. Those are your high cards. (Sorry, I was playin cards with the fam last night, ha. BTW, my grandma kicks butt every time and she does slam her cards on the table).

Reading Lisa’s explanation for why she’d stay, and then what you wrote above about the dependency and the marriage not really being between the two people, makes me entirely sad for her. She is trapped. Even if she had a mind of her own, to do her own will that would be good and right, she cannot. This is when the system you have bought into turns on you. All is hunky-dory until a woman comes to have a mind of her own and the scales fall off. Luckily for me, I didn’t get married in such a system. And I am glad that God allowed me to “suffer the pain of singleness” in it all. Because had I gotten my prayers answered, I’d be Lisa. My ability to make choices for myself would be completely diminished.

I think Lisa believes she has choices that could be made but is completely unaware that her system wouldn’t allow her to if she REALLY got the guts to leave. What’s even sadder is that in such a system, even in marriage, theology trumps love. And there I thought that what God has brought together let no man… you know… separate?? Maybe there is a footnote in the neo-Cal Bible that says **unless it’s your pastor, CG leader, or theological POV.

Anon 1 wrote:

Trina, when you add in the strong focus on patriarchy and the fact they have been immersed in it for 10 years, Lisa may not have any choice but to stay. Her options would be limited which might be why she defends her church. She is a stay at home mom who depends on her husband for total support. If her husband buys into the patriarchal teaching and says they are staying, she would tear her family apart to stand on principle.

Anon1 – This was true for me at my church. One day I told my husband: “I am done. I cannot go back.” I knew it meant that he would stay with the kids and I would go somewhere else. He asked me if I was really going to give up praise and worship (I played piano and sang). I kind of laughed and said my sanity depended on it. I had never ever gone anywhere other than where my husband/family had gone to church and I got to that point where I realized I was losing myself if I didn’t.

As it turned out, the implosion at the church happened right around that time, so I never did go to a different church – we all left together. But that is where I was emotionally and that’s a very difficult place to be in a patriarchal setting. Women are stuck emotionally, spiritually, financially, and physically.

Regarding “Good Teaching”- this is one of those things that is really, really tough. I continue to be flooded with emails/FB Status updates/etc. that quote John Piper. If I bring up his views on domestic violence or divorce, usually the answer I get is “Well, I don’t agree with him on that” and they feel that is good enough. The problem for me (and I gather most other commenters here) is that it is hard to see how someone can be worth quoting on ANY topic and have a heart that would say things like Piper does about abuse.

But here’s the catch: I understand the problems with Piper’s teaching because I’ve experienced the pain of abuse. So far I have encountered very few people who are willing to make a stand on issues of abuse who have not themselves been touched by it in some way. So it’s hard for me to expect those who haven’t experienced it to have the epiphany I never had. I was that ignorant person- I trusted in the leadership that they had good, compassionate, Biblicaly sound answers to questions of abuse and it was not something for me to worry my head over.

I was wrong- very wrong. And when I found out, I was shaken to the core. But I have sympathy for my old self, because I understand that safe world that I was in where I could trust “good teaching” and remain ignorant of how little those I trusted knew. In some ways I feel my mission is to try to reach the old, comfortable Jeff and make him uncomfortable- to make him ask questions. I don’t want to judge him because the only way he woke up was by experience, but I don’t want to just leave him be either.

Eagle said:

And lets cut the crap…much of what we talk about here at Wartburg are cults disguised as Christian faith…When you are in a cult people will love you as long as you tow the line, don’t ask questions, walk lock step with the leadership and follow their actions in obedience…The reality is that it is all hanging by a string. When something happens you will learn that all those support systems will abandon you in a heart beat.

I think they know their support system, their friendships, their community is hanging by a string. Many of them have seen what happens to others who don’t tow the line or leave the church. Fearing – and knowing – that’s what would happen to THEM, they stay. Their investment, their comfort, their support, their community, the “good teaching” isn’t worth losing to take a stand for what’s right.

I’ve left three churches due to leadership problems/control/abuses. As many are saying here, it’s extraordinarily difficult. Much is lost in the process. I’ve done this as a single person and also as a married person with children. (I was on church staff in one case.) In any case, it’s really tough.

To be honest, it’s really hard for me to be patient with folks who know there are problems but stay anyway. Why can’t people just do the right thing?

One thing I will say regarding “true friends”- there were a few individuals who made an effort to stay in touch (and were non-judgmental- maybe even supportive), but at the end of the day, when you aren’t seeing them as often as you were you usually end up growing apart. So much of what binds us together is the bible studies, seeing one another at church and lunch after, etc.

Certainly none of these were intimate friends (my marriage was such that I couldn’t really have intimate friendships), but I do miss a lot of these people. I still read their updates on FB and such, but the regular interaction is gone, and that’s very sad.

I don’t regret the loss of any “friendship” with those who were harsh or judgemental with me.

“….to add, I’d love to see what happened to the brain, chemically, as one is being love bombed. It has to be like the best drug ever… Intoxicating, ethereal, yet impairing. Side effects: leaky eyes, emotional distress, depression, self-hatred, indigestion, heart-burn, fear, social anxiety, binge drinking, fear of God/church/religion.”

You might want to spend some time at undermuchgrace.com blog by Cindy Kunsman. She has tons of studies she lists that will give you that information and much more about how smart people are so fooled by these charlatans and false systems. If we do not take the time to understand it, most go right back into another one because the teaching of “I have to be in a church” is so ingrained they never stop to define ‘church’.

Jeff–

Just to clarify, do you mean that as a negative or positive, that your marriage was such that you couldn’t have intimate friendships? If not too personal, I’d like to ask why not?

@ Julie Anne:
Oh, Julie Anne. I guess the effect on a marriage really does depend on whether the couple is in agreement on their view of their church. Your situation is just more evidence of how really damaging these churches are for relationships.

@ Jeff S:

I can empathize with this. It is difficult to sit in gatherings (Sundays, small groups, friends) and have people quote Piper, suggest his books, and turn foggy eyed over his writing, or have any of Driscoll’s books recommended from the pulpit (just one older one). If you say you disagree with a certain perspective in a conversation, people look at you like you have two heads. I’ve had people be confused that I didn’t seem to know what my church believes. It seems that they thought we all “must” believe the same things. It is almost impossible to be involved with small women’s gatherings because of the way complementarianism is the main focus. The focus becomes your interaction with husband, children, and home, and how you are doing in these areas (boring). If you don’t believe in complementarianism you become a “none” in the eyes of most people and they really just want you to be quiet and not share something that might conflict with the majority beliefs. It is a difficult place to be. I have found myself sitting at gatherings but not participating at all.

One thing you probably aren’t aware of, Jeff, is what it is like to be a woman in a comp church who happens to not be a comp herself. Your world gets pretty small.

Trina wrote:

Jeff–
Just to clarify, do you mean that as a negative or positive, that your marriage was such that you couldn’t have intimate friendships? If not too personal, I’d like to ask why not?

A negative. When my marriage ended I realized that I’d been isolated away from any real friends. All I had was my church and work relationships, and most of those superficial at best.

And by “inimate friendships”, I meant other guys who I knew deeper than just surface level interactions and spent time with one on one. I had none of those.

@ Bridget:

No, I don’t know what it’s like to be a woman in a comp church who isn’t comp. I think about it a lot, though.

Dee–

Yes, ma’am! You are so right. I didn’t even look at it that way. Hmmm… More weaponry for my arsenal. (insert evil laugh). Okay, sorry. I’m misbehaving. But yes, I agree. dee wrote:

Trina

They do not really want to know about your “new church.” They want to know which one it is so they can say that their church is better and look at you with pity that you do not understand the Bible as well as they do. Next time, tell them you belong to a great church. Don’t tell them what it is. You are, and always will be, a member of the Body of jesus Christ.

BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

Oh, Julie Anne. I guess the effect on a marriage really does depend on whether the couple is in agreement on their view of their church. Your situation is just more evidence of how really damaging these churches are for relationships.

You hit the nail on the head. At first my husband and I were not in agreement about leaving whatsoever. When the church situation imploded (our close friend who was on staff at the church was fired), that opened his eyes a bit. When we had 11 hours of meetings (over several days), there was an incident that made him realize that yes, we are probably better off moving on, but he still didn’t completely get it. We still are not in agreement on several things from that church experience. In his defense, I can look back on my progression. There was a time a friend of mine asked me if I considered my former pastor a “wolf” and I said that I didn’t think so. If you ask me now, I absolutely think he is the epitome of a wolf and false teacher who has left a path of destruction. It takes a while – sometimes many years – to see things clearly.

So imagine with one spouse having a glimpse of clarity about a bad church situation and another spouse oblivious to the problems. That is a huge conflict. What do you do? I posted a link to Raymond’s story on another thread. Spiritual abuse destroyed his marriage. He saw the problem, his wife didn’t – she was on staff at the church and the pastor pulled the wool over her eyes. He still loves his ex-wife and would take her back in a heartbeat. This kind of thing is going on in churches and I don’t know where Lisa is, but it is a very scary place to be when stuck in an unhealthy or abusive church with a spouse who may not see things the way you do.

@ Trina: This! (And all your other comments in this thread.)

Leaving – either on one’s own or by being booted – is a VERY painful process. It has taken me a decade to recover from the worst of it. (And no, I’m not an ex-SGMer, but was in a very SGM-like church.)

Patriarchy in SGM goes back to its TAG/PDI days. I vividly remember a friend’s wedding at CLC, back in the late 80s. When the “pastor” started talking about roles during the service, I wanted to flee. *All* of the language used was authority/submission.

So this is not something that’s been cooked up by CJ; it was there from the get-go.

@ numo:

I believe you. However, I believe it was practiced (or not) to different degrees in different churches. Much depended on the church, the elders, and the demographics. I do remember a certain marriage retreat when complementarianism was rolled out in all its glory, along with it’s importance with getting the Gospel right and being a witness to the world (sheesh).

@ Bridget: What also astonished me, both then and now: in any ways, my FC friends are far more egal than comp in actual daily life.

And one of them spent a *lot* of time with me when I was booted from That church – she could see so many of their wrongs in very clear perspective, but is seemingly blind to what goes on in the FX church, to which she’s incredibly loyal. (Though I think the loyalty is to friends, not to the “leadership”… however, she got upset with me once for saying that I read religion blogs, immediately assuming that I meant Survivors and Refuge. I didn’t tell her that I was doing so, only that there are a *lot* of religion blogs out there, because I didn’t want to get into a big fight.)

Numo–
I’ve heard those things preached at weddings too… and bridal showers… and baby showers. The brainwashing is thorough and deeply entrenched. There is no escaping it. The women must always love, love, love, support, support, sacrifice, sacrifice. But I never really heard women given the advice to honor her own feelings, love herself well, take time for herself OFTEN… You step into that church on any given Sunday and you see a lot of worn out and sad looking faces. A bunch of sad looking little clowns. (Hmmmm… singing Nina Simone, “Send in the Clowns” : ) )

I’ve noticed, as I look back, that often men were low esteemed type individuals. It’s apparent and interesting the draw of weak men to churches like these. If I were a weak, insecure man, I’d never leave. That place is an emotional and spiritual gold mine.

Trina, you are so right: “life is HARD…There’s no way out of the heartbreak and discomfort.”

No one specifically told me this, but in years past I just thought if I did all the “right” things both spiritually and in secular life, I would be spared from the heartache and disaster that befall everyone. That was a lie – either from satan or from my own fearful, seeking-ease, seeking-to-get-out-of-life-without-dying, self.

God was kind enough to be close to me, when he allowed me to suffer just the first twinges of reality hitting. He told me, through a socratic dialogue in my heart, that I was really full of fear and full of pride – that I was trying to avoid pain and also not trusting him to be in the middle of bad things and rescue me. He told me he had never made the “deal” I thought he had made, that would keep me from hardship in return for my obedience and “perfection.”

That was hard to hear, but actually quite liberating when I accepted it. Actually believing that life was going to be hard – even as a fully committed Christian – gave me peace because I finally believed that it was foolish to try to work all of life around pain-avoidance, rather than around God-presence/obedience/joy.

Believing that has also softened the blows I’ve felt inside, as I’ve learned more about the suffering that serious Christians endure on a daily basis. Sometimes, they – like Paul – actually see Jesus, who comforts them with his presence and a few words. But they usually see Jesus *after* they’ve already been beaten and abused quite a bit (figuratively or literally). Jesus makes it clear he’s with them in the suffering, but that the suffering is real and, often, something he’s allowing.

I’ve realized – but wish I didn’t have to – that God really doesn’t care about us having a pain-free life as we do. He doesn’t regard pain as the worst adversary, as we (or just I?) unconsciously do. He regards satan and satan’s deception/bondage as the worst adversary, and God regards being deceived by satan and not experiencing God’s love and Kingdom as the worst thing that can happen to us.

God is very willing to allow us to suffer, to come into the Kingdom, to grow up into sons, and also to help bring others into the Kingdom. And there’s no whining we can do about this, really – we pray to a Man who is alive after being horribly tortured and murdered. The Man we pray to has scars on his body from the pain he endured for his Father and for us. (I’ll bet his back is a mess of scars, as well, though he didn’t invite the disciples to touch those.) He will love us through the pain, but he will not keep us from all pain. He will give us power to “set our face like a flint” as he walks us toward our own Jerusalem, again and again.

Then one day, we too will die. Some of us will die painfully, as he did. But he will be there, and the pain will one day end as it did for him. And we will spend eternity, as Jack Deere has said, with Jesus “making it up to us” with the full measure of his love.

I’m still working on accepting this, but less shocked about it than before.

Trina,

Thank you for your response. I understand your point. The unfortunate reality is that many never leave. They stay in abusive churches/systems, thereby continuing to enable abuse, deception, cover-up, and complicity.

You may be familiar with Christa Brown who writes the Stop Baptist Predators blog. TWW has a link to her blog here. I can’t remember if Christa wrote about this or if it was something she and I discussed via emails. She said that she has long wondered why a few of us find the courage/will to leave abusive/enabling/complicit churches and others don’t. She said she wished she could bottle up whatever it is that causes some of us to leave and give it to the rest.

I think this prompted my controversial question – Why can’t people just do the right thing? I realize the “just” may oversimplify the process, but it’s an honest question. What DOES cause a few of us to leave and refuse to continue enabling the abuse/system? And if we can, why don’t/can’t they?

@ Wendy: I’m not at all sure that there’s any grand, overarching answer to this question.

However, I know from personal experience that it takes a LOT to start getting past all the cognitive dissonance that one lives with for years.

I was booted – in a very humiliating way (included shunning) – from an SGM-like church a shade over 10 years ago. Like I said further up, it has taken me 10 years to start feeling like I’m in the clear. I lost all my friends, my entire social support system, my outlet for creative stuff (I’m a musician and was “de-gifted” re. the music ministry) and on and on.

And yet, they still expected me to attend, and wanted to “send me off” when I left the area. to which my response is, WTF??!!!

“Masquerade Invitations: Accountability Has Become A March Of Death?”

Issues? 

Sovereign Grace, a Ministry that prides itself on having pastors that demand untiring and unquestioning obedience from its members, has now been held up in its proper light by “forces” outside it’s perimeters? These “external accountability forces” are long over due, dontcha think? 

Hopefully justice will be rendered to those who have demanded these untiring spiritual genuflection’s to the detriment of many a soul. 

Hmmm…One can only hope!

What is to be done with these “Spiritual Men?” who have aided and a bedded these individuals and perpetuated, by their assistance’s and the endorsements, -this church dance of death?

The Reformation, began in 1517 gave the common man a ready benchmark of God’s expectation and wishes for those who are willing to listen to its message, and desires the eternal life Christ came to offer in the New Testament, The Book Of John, chapter six. 

Jesus, is the Bread of Life?

He said:

“Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you.”

They said: 

“What must we do to do the works God requires?”

He said:

 “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

(Jesus Christ)

“All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.”

“For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

God has requested the faithful raising up of ministers who would go and tell the people, the genuine truth of what Christ has done  (brought sin’s remedy) and brought to Man (eternal life); to all those God should call.

This is not an private party, but a clarion call to take this message of hope, to the 
highways and byways of this world.

Jesus said in this eternal life would be made available to all who believed in Him. 

These men in Sovereign Grace Ministries Churches who masquerade as genuine ministers of Christ, as having faithfully brought Christ’s message of eternal life to all in their church buildings is a question with a simple answer.

No. 

(no cigar, caugh, caugh…)

[Not even close.]

…do not pass the plate, do not believe them.

They are in a proverbial dance with death.

Yet…

God so loved the world , that He gave His only Son…

And for those who believe in Him, “eternal life”.

Doesn’t get any better that this.

  (now if you could just get kind folk at listen…)

hmmm…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EYAUazLI9k&feature=youtube_gdata_player

(grin)

Sopy

Numo–
Being obedient in an effed up system won’t save your butt. Ultimately, it is still built to proceed as the monster that it is and will eventually eat you up as long as you are in it. Every dog has its day. Afterall, even the good slaves get beat…eventually. A slave is a slave. Don’t get it twisted.

Reading all these stories is making me remember a comment one of my conservative Christian friends made to me once, when I tried to express to him why Vision Forum and other patriarchal systems are so abusive and dangerous for women:

“I don’t know why you care about this stuff so much. It’s not really important, not like gay marriage.”

The ironic part us that this young man’s father was a porn-addicted NPD pedophile and that this led directly to his parents’ divorce…but to my knowledge, his mother has never told him this. He has NO IDEA that a huge part of the reason I care is because I got to witness the damage his father wreaked on him and his family, and I cannot tell him at the risk of bringing things to light that would (hopefully) completely shatter his view of his father and probably explode our friendship to boot.

The better question is why he, and most other people in conservative evangelicalism, DON’T care.

@ Trina: Yes indeed.

You just reminded me of W.B. Yeats’ poem The Second Coming (Slouching Toward Bethlehem.

Here are a few lines from it (entire poem is at link) –

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

@ Wendy: One of THE best examinations of these issues that I’ve ever come across can be found in Octavia Butler’s novel Kindred.

The central character is a black woman, living in LA in the mid 1970s, who is pulled back in time (in a totally believable way) to the plantation where some of her ancestors were enslaved – and where she is also enslaved.

As time goes on, she starts to become complicit with the system in order to survive, even though that means that she supports many of the abuses perpetrated by the person who “owns” her and her ancestors. Her ancestors are – not so coincidentally – targets of particular wrongs.

It’s not so much that the character becomes evil – that would be *way* too easy – she doesn’t. It’s that the system starts warping her in the same way it warps everyone else, including the man who ostensibly “owns” her.

It’s a very gripping read, and just plain superb, imo. I think it has given me some insight into my own situation (being booted) as well as a new – if scary – view of what slavery did to people, and what those who were enslaved did to survive it.

Highly recommended, and you don’t have to be a sci-fi or fantasy fan to enjoy it. (Though I have to say, it can be quite disturbing to one’s own sense of internal comfort, even to a sense of moral superiority that even the best people struggle with…)

…and by their fruit, we shall know them. …and by their love for one another… and he who loves his brother knows me, but who does not… and so forth and so on. Apparently, what they truly lack is LOVE. A lack of love would cause one not to leave such a situation. And the circle completes itself: doctrine over love.

Jeff S wrote:

If you are going to spend gobs of money and effort on anti-abortion legislation and awareness, you’d better make sure you are taking care of the children every person with a heart knows needs to be protected. Otherwise the pro-life cause just comes off as another way of controlling other people.

So agree with you!

Well Jeff–

That’s the thing with pro-life “cultural” Christianity. We are very busy in the business of telling people not to kill babies, yet, we dont give a schtick once the child arrives on this earth about their care. It’s kinda like how christian culture is so very “concerned” for Africa, yet, won’t even go in their local surrounding communities to help people who are impoverished and marginalized. Why? Cause God dont care bout them there sinners in your urban hood. They are all lost causes anyways. With all their drinkin and weed smokin,and prostitutin. All they do is live off welfare and wanna game the system. Those people wont get much bling on my crown. Now, them Africans are absolutely destitute and are fresh ears for letting you give them a pair of shoes for letting a Jesus into their hearts.

(please excuse my sarcasm but I had to).

Trina and Numo,

Your thoughts are some of what I discussed upthread. Thanks for expounding on this.

I know there is social psychology involved as well. In our last church, there were numerous folks (I later learned) who suspected the deacon was preying on one of our youth. Classic bystander effect – no one uttered a word to anyone – except me.

@ Trina: Oh gosh [blushes and looks at feet]

Thank you, but hey, I studied this stuff, back in the day.

*totally* agree with your comment (2:23). it also extends to people who are immigrants and need to learn “survival English.” (And lots of others, of course.) God knows some people seem to “love” uganda enough that they’re willing to try and “help” them pass legislation that makes homosexuality a capital crime. (For those unfamiliar with this – it’s true. I’d be *more* than happy to provide links to all kinds of documentation; it’s especially crucial because it’s happening *right now*.)

Numo,

I agree with Trina – you are like human cliff’s notes. 🙂

The theme of Kindred seems to parallel how folks get caught up enabling an unhealthy/abusive system. I’ll check it out.

Wendy–

I think some of our previous experiences in life help too. In my case, I had to stand up to my own father. That really led to me having more confidence in myself as I got older. Counseling and therapy taught me about boundaries and the rights I have as an individual. That also helped me to become confident and stand up for myself. Leaving churches over obvious things that were unhealthy and loosing friends–done once, terrifying. Done again: scary, sad, but not as terrifying. Practice does make perfect : ) Often, these people will not stand up for themselves in situations where they are being abused–especially the women. They are already beat down and have their true voice stolen. Why would they stand up for anyone else?

But for me, because I do have confidence and I will put down appropriate boundaries, then I am quite comfortable and confident doing that for someone else. Weak people usually don’t stand up to defend others. But strong people will whip somebody’s tail (as we say in my fam) for messing with your/your friends/some strangers kid.

It’s interesting that when I began to bring up issues with the pastors/elders about minorities and black women at my past church, the women that I told about it said that noone had gotten a response until I had brought it up. That I was one of the very few that even spoke about it. I was shocked, because these girls had been there for a long time. They simply didn’t have the confidence I had. And they still dont. Which is why they are still there schlepping along and still complaining about how bad the system is, yet they wont leave.

“But how in the world can the church have any credibility at all caring for unborn fetuses and calling women murderers (some who are in some very difficult situations and many who may not be old enough to be making a real ‘adult’ decision) when it stands by and doesn’t say a word about children being sexually assaulted within its walls.”

Because teaching 1 Corin 5 is not profitable. We are told not to judge the world but ourselves…in the Body. That is why the evangelical culture war was such a massive failure in reality but still going on because it appeals. Just read Mohler’s blog. If you can keep people ignorant of what is taking place behind the pulpit, the culture war plays well with the pew sitters because they really believe…”we are not like them”.

Debra Baker wrote:

Lisa,
You mention a parenting program in your 9:28 post, what materials/publications did they use and when (if you don’t mind.)
TIA!

It’s actually called Single & Parenting and it’s from Church Initiative which also publishes the DivorceCare program we’re going to use this spring. I’ve seen a lot of churches using their programs- baptist, methodist, presbyterian…it’s not affiliated with SGM in any way. Our church ran the S&P group twice (it goes for ~3months), I think it was fall ’11 and spring ’12?

@ Don Baker:

Thank you for your thoughts on this, Don. Gives me a lot to chew on. 🙂

@ Anon 1: Thanks for the rec – I’ve read some defenses of slavery that come from the heart of other denoms, and it is just painful and sickening stuff.

fwiw, at the National Cathedral in D.C., there’s a life-size statue of Robert E. Lee (mounted on Traveler) right outside the building, very close to the southeast wall of the nave. That’s always made alarm bells go off in my head; I’m familiar with the accounts of Lee as a “Christian gentleman,” but that statue’s presence and placement is just…. words fail me.

“The first thing we did after reading the initial lawsuit was ask our pastor, have any of these things ever happened at our church, would you even tell us if they had, would you call the police in these situations. We were satisfied with the response *at our church*, obviously not the case with all SGM churches.”

Lisa, I do not even have to respond to the other things you explained because this last one sums up the MAIN problem at SGM or whatever SGM affiliated or formerly affiliated church one is in.

The Pastor is the LAST person you should go to and BELIEVE concerning what has come of light and where your church fits into the larger picture. He is as much of a koolaid drinker as anyone else but at a highher level with stronger stuff. See, you did not even pick up on that. That is how ingrained it is for you.

SGM pastors whether stil in the system or not are trying to figure out if they are going to be able to pay their mortgage in a few months. Keep that in mind, too.

For anyone who thinks I am too mean, when you read my comments, think of a 3 year old girl having a 16 year old boy from church climb on top of her and SGM blows that off and makes the 3 year old face her molester and forgive.

If you can picture that terrified child, then I don’t sound so mean about SGM and it’s defenders and fellow travellors.

Let us NEVER forget what we are really talking about. The life of terror of these victims must never be lost in the discussion.

In a control group situation, this is how I read this statement. (And I”m not even playing the race card) but just to signify the situations where people are being controlled or abused, and deceived…

The first thing we did after reading the initial town Gazette, we asked our master, have any of these things ever happened at our plantation, would you even tell us if they had, would you call the police in these hangings. We were satisfied with the response our master gave, obviously not the case with all of his plantations.

: /

Yes, Jeff! That was quite an amazing response. But you know, people just wanna “pray” for stuff all the time. I”ll pray for you. I”m praying for it. We’ll pray about it.

@ Rafiki: I lived in NoVa for 21 years; went to grad school at GW.

To my mind, having the statue of Lee on the grounds – and not just on the grounds, but SO CLOSE to the nave – is a clear illustration of why there are next to zero black Episcopalians in the D.C. area. (There are, however, many black Catholics – same in Baltimore.)

One of my sub-specialties in grad school was … African American artists in the D.C. area, past and present. So…

Trina wrote:

Drury

haaa, but then you’d need Dee & Deb to be running the “Fake John Piper” twitter account !

The love bombing brings back memories of all the attention we received at first. But after that and we met with pastors to talk about membership and what not, we were told, at first, “You look around and see all these people and their relationships with one another, and we just want you to know that it takes at least 4 years for that to begin to develop.” And then at the next meeting, same kind of thing, only I noticed it kept getting stretched out, “You’ll see relationships but we want you to know it takes 6 years or so to really feel knit in….”

If you knew Gary Ricucci or John Loftness that’s what they would tell you. They kept stringing you along…if its not working for you yet just wait….things will get better….it takes TIME.

Its a big waste of time is what it is!!

@ Haitch:

Haitch,

Why not the Fake Ceej Mahaney Twitter account? LOL I”m glad you could appreciate my joke. I imagine the tweets would definitely include examples du jour about how he was the biggest sinner in the world…

@CeejMahaney: Saved 3 peds from the pen today. Shoulda bn me. Totally the worlds biggest sinner, yo. #SGMrox #sweetbabyjesus

Trina wrote:

@ Haitch:
Haitch,
Why not the Fake Ceej Mahaney Twitter account?

Hi Trina, I noticed after seeing the fake Pastor Mark (Driscoll) Twitter, account, as well as the fake John Piper account, that someone had already registered the fake CJ Mahaney Twitter account, which has no activity.

I don’t think it will be long before some talented people start spoofing Mahaney and imitating him, making fun of his messages and his ministry. There’s just too much material there to pass up! 😀

Bold Calvinestaville: Business As Usural? 

HowDee YaAll,

[When you combine the patriarchy with Calvinista it becomes especially vicious because (they believe) God foreordained it. This means (for the 3 year old) molestation by a professing beliver was part of God’s predetermined plan. ] -Anon1, adapted.

crackers?

…excusing evil acts by professing believers, and victimizing the victims? 

Boy, is that really messed up!?!

“We are talking about the most vulnerable and innocent among us…” -Anon1

What?

 “This is not something to even try and explain away. It is something one gets out of immediately and works to help the victims who were in the same system.” -Anon1

hmmm…

Evil is in triumph, 

… good men are doing nothing.

(sadface)

Church is big business, you can count on that!

huh?

The proverbial con is on…

Watch for it!

Therez a sucker born every day who will fall for dis kinda stuff. Don’t let it ‘b’ you.

Sopy

@ Jeff S: It’s a whole lot like being in an abusive relationship. It’s *hard* for most people to really leave, even if the abuse is extreme.

But it’s also a common dynamic in cults, and while I sometimes find myself getting frustrated with some of the commenters on Survivor-type blogs, I also feel for them, because I do remember how hard it was for me to process the extreme cognitive dissonance I experienced when I was booted from That Church. (As well as the kind of low-level cognitive dissonance I’d been living with for decades but kept suppressing, because surely those things weren’t actually happening – and also because I was scared of being trapped in something even worse.)

It can be a vicious circle, in every sense of the term.

Evie wrote:

Jeff I’m sorry I was thinking you had been in SGM my bad!!!
I remember now about your church situation! (sorry for being harsh)

Oh, I didn’t realize you were being harsh with me :p

It’s all good- I see looking back at the comments how it could look I came from SGM. I merely empathize with the prospect of losing a church family because I know it’s hard.

…and these people have the nerve not to buy a $3 box of freakin’ cookies from Girl Scouts because (in my whiney voice) they support Planned Parenthood… whaaaa… whaaa… WHAAAA!!!

Talk about mixed up priorities, man.

Goodness. I’m sorry, but those Samoas are good as hell. So while you put your $500 in the offering plate and hope nobody’s kid gets raped, I’ll put my $3 in that cookie box and hope nobody gets an abortion today. Shall we call it even?

numo wrote:

@ Trina: LOLZ – but it’s all too true.
thin mints are my go-to.

I won’t buy GS cookies because they are just too expensive for what you get (imo).

And I think grasshoppers are every bit as good (or better) than thin mints.

Sorry for the quick diversion. I have to share this pattern I’ve been noticing. People who speak loudest about the complementarian issue seem to be MEN. They try to tell us that the value of woman is of utmost importance to them. Here’s one tweet I read recently: “Complementarians are incredibly pro-women. We believe we honor God’s design for women. And so we wish for women to thrive, not suffer.”

Complementarian Phil Johnson just tweeted this: https://twitter.com/Phil_Johnson_/status/295983177200185344 (click on the tiny URL on Phil’s tweet)

Thank you for allowing JA to vent. Back to your regularly scheduled program.

Anon 1 wrote:

Many Reformed see all sin as the same. They make no real distinctions. Being angry is the same as murdering someone and God judges both the same. That is why it is so easy for them to come back to the victim with ‘you are a sinner, too”. Which is true but has nothing to do with the situation. Their determinist paradigm makes sure it has something to do with it and only victimizes people over and over. When you combine the patriarchy with Calvinista it becomes especially viscious because God foreordained it. This means the 3 year olds molestation by a professing beliver was part of God’s predetermined plan. We can see how this would really mess people up.
So, to the poor vulnerable child victims who do not have the capacity to understand or question: God foreordained it, you are a sinner, too! now forgive!
It is most vile using God as the author of pure evil to excuse evil acts by even professing believers.

I was thinking about this just yesterday, watching a new British version of the Father Brown mysteries, either that or inspired by them. Dee, you’ll love them! In the first episode Father Brown is dealing with an Anglican Vicar who has killed his brother. His brother was leading a terribly immoral life, which involved appalling manipulation of, & harm to, others. The Vicar has a chance to do something, on the spur of the moment that could kill his brother. When he does this thing, & it, against all probability (trying not to ruin it for those who will see it)it does kill his brother, he then attributes this to God, that his death must have been God’s will. Now Father Brown, who is noramlly wise & mild, loses his temper & shouts at him ‘You killed your brother! GOD IS NOT YOUR SCAPEGOAT’…SUch a profoud thing to say, & definitely applicable here.

Jeff S wrote:

I mean, I think we all recognize that if something really filthy happens at a bunch of SBC churches, that doesn’t mean all people should leave all SBC churches.

That’s the decision WE made. My husband and I were both born and raised SBC. For the first 40+ years of our lives, we were steeped in SBC everything.

Here are the primary reasons we’ll never attend an SBC church again (unless there are drastic changes):

1. Being expelled at our SBC church for exposing a child predator;
2. All the research I’ve done on child sex abuse cases in the SBC and the unfathomable history of do-nothingness in the face of scandal after scandal;
3. The SBC voting NO to the establishment of a database of confessed, convicted, and credibly accused ministers.

Until the SBC takes abuse seriously and is willing to do something about it, rather than turning a blind eye, I don’t feel safe there. There are other denoms who DO take it seriously and actually have safety measures in place to protect kids.

Trina wrote:

BeenThere–
I’d like to add, “…and for ALL relationships.” Marriages won’t survive it but neither will friendships. Nothing can survive the effects of a cult unless the people are extremely strong-willed and immediately seek outside support.

Completely agree. I was responding to some comments above concerning couples. But, you’re right. It affects anyone who leaves. In fact, I’ve reconnected with a friend who left our church a few years before we did. Her family, which remains in the church, will have nothing to do with her. Her father sends her text messages telling her that she is to blame for the separation. Her saving grace was an enormous amount of support from people in the community who had befriended her. Even then, it’s still hard.

Jeff S wrote:

I mean, I think we all recognize that if something really filthy happens at a bunch of SBC churches, that doesn’t mean all people should leave all SBC churches.

That’s the decision WE made. My husband and I were both born and raised SBC. For the first 40+ years of our lives, we were steeped in everything SBC.

Here are the primary reasons we’ll never attend an SBC church again (unless there are drastic changes):

1. Being expelled at our SBC church for exposing a child predator;
2. All the research I’ve done on child sex abuse cases in the SBC and the unfathomable history of do-nothingness in the face of scandal after scandal;
3. The SBC voting NO to the establishment of a database of confessed, convicted, and credibly accused ministers.

Until the SBC demonstrates genuine care for children, takes abuse seriously and is willing to something about it, rather than turning a blind eye, I don’t feel safe there. There are other denoms who DO take it seriously and have elaborate safety measures in place to protect kids.

Jeff, the Southern Baptist Convention does not operate like SGM at all. It’s polity was designed to be bottom up on purpose. Just do a google on how many presidents we’ve had….. they are elected by the messengers who attend the convention from churches.

Now I will concede that Al Mohler, the unofficial Pope of the SBC, has been working very very hard to make us into a huge SGM style denomination.

However, many are concerned as we now have churches and associations designating money away from SBTS.

Perhaps you are not aware of how top down SGM polity is. The last person I would trust is an SGM pastor .

JeffS, I hear you.

I think the sources you point to are of a much higher calibre than the ones that I have a problem with, a lot of the determinism I hear about comes from harder core fundamentalists & neo-calvinists, calvinistas if you will. I’m going to have to hold up my hands however & say that while I totally agree with the points you made, I do strongly suspect that any level of calvinism leads to a disguised determinism, no matter how much it tries to avoid this. The level of cognitive dissonance I have experienced (no matter how much thinking/prayer/time/repentance/submission to scripture) while trying to hold to compatibilism myself makes this untenable to me.

Trina wrote:

Lisa, ask your pastor why He wouldn’t leave SGM even though he didn’t know. Doesn’t he think his continuing to preach and identify with such an organization that has lied to him and kept secrets from him, and keeping him in the dark about something as important as this a little bit more than unfair and ignoring his responsibility and leadership???

They want to help reform SGM. That’s why they participated in the polity stuff. Our church was already questioning SGM about polity issues even before the brent docs. They just weren’t getting much response from SGM. The brent situation blew everything up and forced these things to finally be addressed.

Personally, I think things in SGM are so far gone, that it’s a detriment for us to stay, but they didn’t ask me 🙂 (Remember, I would strongly prefer congregational input in our local church)

“There is a radically difference in the thinking of sociopaths/psychopaths”

“And if we are naive enough to treat them in the same manner we would deal with more “normal” sinners, we are going to be chewed up and spit out by them”

Exactly…

@ numo~

“God knows some people seem to “love” uganda enough that they’re willing to try and “help” them pass legislation that makes homosexuality a capital crime. (For those unfamiliar with this – it’s true. I’d be *more* than happy to provide links to all kinds of documentation; it’s especially crucial because it’s happening *right now*.)

Lou Engle?

@ Wendy,

I am so sorry for the fear that your two sweet boys are experiencing. Just you keep on loving them and letting them stay with you. They will naturally grow out of needing that security, as I bet you already know. But they need it now. 🙂

Dee,
This is why I’m asking- I don’t really know anything about the pastor or how the church operates. I’m trying to understand myself how far this thing reaches.

My questions were real question- I really am ignorant and not trying to make a point when I ask how SGM is different from SBC. And I appreciate the answers.

Lisa, the polity your pastor agreed to only maintains CJ’s power.

@ Anon 1:

Wait. What? How? Please enlighten Lisa and us, Anon ; ).

numo wrote:

@ Lisa: With respect, if I were in your shoes, I wouldn’t just go on what the pastor said re. child abuse.
….
You might want to look at some registered sex offenders lists for starters.

Of course, I try to be as aware as possible. I get a monthly email from crimereports.com that maps the crime in our town and includes all registered sex offenders in the area. But if they’re only registered if they’ve been convicted. Yes, I’m very cautious with our kids!

Oh sorry Lisa… You can push my question to the back of the queue. It’s not as important as Dee’s. if you have the time, would you answer her first? I’m also interested in your reply. Thank you

I believe Jeff S. is asking a legitimate question, and I’m curious for more feedback myself. Why would any of us (not just Lisa) align ourselves with a denomination or organization whose prominent leaders (those calling the shots and with the most influence) know, lie about, cover up, and protect child predators?

Diane,

Thank you for your encouragement. For the first year+ of this co-sleeping, we tried various ways to get the boys back in their own beds. Actually, we’ve tried just about everything. When my now 6-year old revealed that he was scared the deacon predator from our church would come through his window at night, that just broke my heart. And it all – the questions, comments, almost daily obsession about the predator and the church – made sense. We’ve given in to them sleeping with us now and figure, like you say, they need it right now.

Lisa–

D you tithe or give money? If so, do you think that money lends support to these pastors.

Lisa–

I’m sorry I have so many questions for you but your statements bring up more questions. You tell Wendy that you wouldn’t align yourself with SGM but yet you ARE aligned with SGM. Do you agree? But if you cannot recommend SGM right now to anyone, why must you and your family be the martyrs for this organization? Do you think there is some huge heavenly reward for it? Do you think God will be pleased with your dedication? Why would it not be ok to accept that it appears you are getting no greater good out of the situation? I mean after all, you can’t even recommend it to anyone? You tell us all these realities that you now realize and you think it is fair to treat yourself that way?

Aren’t you worth more than that, Lisa? Can’t you believe for a minute that God wants immeasurably more for you than that, Lisa? Do you think that God world be totally fine and even pleased that you walked away? Why or why wouldn’t God support your decision? Do you think if those were your kids that anything different would have happened? Doesn’t the idea that maybe it wouldn’t be any different haunt you? That you’re really not that special to them?

I would ultimately challenge you to see if those real friendships and real love and care would survive if you made a different decision. I would also challenge you to stop thinking that your church and SGM are different animals. You speak of SGM and the you speak of your church as if they are separate entities.

Trina wrote:

I’m sorry, but those Samoas are good as hell. So while you put your $500 in the offering plate and hope nobody’s kid gets raped, I’ll put my $3 in that cookie box and hope nobody gets an abortion today. Shall we call it even?

Trina, just so you know … I spit out my tea all over my computer screen at that remark. 🙂

Lisa, The problem with the “new polity” is that SGM was built on cult of personality. There is CJ DNA all over the pastors in that movement. They don’t wake up one day and stop being who they have been. They can say the right things and act a certain way but that only means they weren’t qualified before and integrity would demand they step down if they all of a sudden disagree with how things were run. This is the part I do not get about all the support for Josh Harris. He was brought up in this legalistic hierarchical patriarchal bubble and mentored by CJ. All of a sudden he is a new person? I seriously doubt it.

As for Sasser… He is one of them big time. You are fooling yourself. Think of the children.

BTW: As to Presbyterian polity, some of my Pres friends have “ruling” elders, not elders mind you but “ruling” elders in their Presbytery which is always fun to debate at dinner parties. CJ and his sychophants will love that. Sounds much more sophisticated than “Apostle”.

Think of that 3 year old terrified girl and what SGM pastors made her do after that terrifying event. Never let her leave your mind.

VelvetVoice,
Glad to see you back. I hope your former pastor’s absence didn’t diminish your ability to grieve your father’s death. I’m sorry you didn’t have closure with him.

Trina

1, 2, 4, 6, 7- true
3. Complementarianism: some of it I agree with but not to the extent of saying every man must be the sole breadwinner and every woman must stay home etc, I don’t think that’s biblical, I think some of it has become legalistic and its been unnecessarily hurtful to ladies that don’t follow the pattern.
5. “You believe it might be detrimental to stay.”: undecided

Hmmm… That’s s whole lot of serious negatives there on top of you not getting what you really want. Ad you say you want to stay? There must be a huge HUGE pro for all that sacrifice.

Yep, I love the people, I love walking out the Christian life with them.

You asked about “tithing”. We have an amount that we plan to give to the work of God. It is now allocated much differently than before, but we still give that amount just not to the same places. That is an ongoing issue for us (not wanting to support SGM with our money).

I don’t think there’s a heavenly reward for staying or leaving. God is at work everywhere, I can serve him where ever I am. We can leave if we want to, it’s a totally fine choice and I commend the people that have left. I wouldn’t recommend SGM churches till I see how this all works out. For example, someone needs to come out and say that what is alleged in the lawsuits was sinful and wrong. Because I’m assuming it’s generally true (there’s been enough witnesses right?), we also need to see some serious repentance. Then I’d feel comfortable inviting people to our church. It would be different for me if our church was no longer associated with SGM. I get what you’re saying and you’re right, I actually do see SGM and my church as separate entities. It’s hard not to, our church is filled with lots of great people that I know very well and my experience with the people I know and love at our church has been great. There are a significant amount of people in our church that have only been at our church for a few years, they have no SGM background/baggage, don’t know who CJ is, don’t care etc. I don’t see those people as SGM and they make up a big part of our church.

@ Leila: glad I could provide you some entertainment! Ha!

Anon1–

Lisa’s church was the model church for SGM. As she said, they are nothing like the rest if them. In fact, her church had an issue with the polity before Brent’s docs. They are the right ones. Don’t forget that. Therefore, the changes really aren’t needed so much with them, but the rest of SGM… Even though they are part of the system (and haven’t been privy to ANY of these grave sins). And they really are separate from the rest of SGM.

Yep, separate but equal but partners but separate… So why even call themselves SGM if they are not SGM?

Lisa–

It would be harsh for me to say you are brainwashed because I don’t know that, but I will say the dissonance is like someone playing D major scale against another playing E minor. I am whining very badly. Because what you are saying ABOUT your church is t reflected in your actual feelings. They do not agree. The list you agreed with is a very heavy one and is a deal breaker for most centered and sound thinking individuals. But it seems to me that it doesn’t raise great alarm for you. I do see the relationships you have possibly playing a huge part in why it is so difficult for you to concede that there is something terribly wrong. I understand. I really do. You have a great deal on the line. It is hard.

@ Deb:

I checked all that out this morning, it was interesting. There is also a Sasser homegroup leader and several Martins on staff and as homegroup leaders. There seem to be many family connections. It’s possible there are more if there are other SILs involved with different surnames.

I find it interesting that CJ chose Phil Sasser to advise him since Phil Sasser also apparently held the same view of Apostles as CJ. It leaves you wondering if it was CJ’s plan to involve someone not well known nanionwide, that seemed obscure, but in reality held to the same Polity views as SGM had in the past.

Beakerj wrote:

JeffS, I hear you.

I think the sources you point to are of a much higher calibre than the ones that I have a problem with, a lot of the determinism I hear about comes from harder core fundamentalists & neo-calvinists, calvinistas if you will. I’m going to have to hold up my hands however & say that while I totally agree with the points you made, I do strongly suspect that any level of calvinism leads to a disguised determinism, no matter how much it tries to avoid this. The level of cognitive dissonance I have experienced (no matter how much thinking/prayer/time/repentance/submission to scripture) while trying to hold to compatibilism myself makes this untenable to me.

Understood- and believe me I know better than trying to convert anyone to reformed theology on this part of the web.

I’m simply pointing out that this “all sins are equal” stuff is something that’s been bolted on without any real foundation, and it’s real harmful stuff.

It’s really a denial that real evil exists in the world- makes me think of Verbal Kent: “The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist”.

@ Lisa: Serve, or rule?

that’s a serious question, btw – I know it looks snarky, but…

@ Lisa: I think you would all be better off at another church.

Seriously. I hope and pray that you act on it soon; I think you already know it in your heart of hearts.

Sometimes the only healthy thing to do is walk out the door. If you worry so much about regrets, you will stay there forever.

I don’t want to sound unkind here… I’ve been through the whole lost my friends/lost the people I thought were family/nobody bothered with me anymore thing, and it HURTS. But as you’ve already said, you have kids, and maybe you need to be thinking not only about what’s best for you, but if there’s a healthier situation for them. *Really* thinking about it.

I hope you guys walk out the door without looking back, and soon.

Lisa–

It is unfair that you have to ultimately make a choice. But what’s even more unfair is that it is very possible that your pastor knows what went on at very high levels in an organization where he is a key leader. His paycheck may also reflect that. If you think that all the other people at SGM churches where these abuses have happened had any different views about their churches than you have of yours, then let me tell you they did not. I began reading the survivor blogs when only maybe two of the molestation/rape stories had been told. There were seriously MANY MANY people coming by from SGM churches to defend their church even saying that the people were liars and this was all a conspiracy to bring down your coalition of churches.

Now we know that more and more people have come out of the closet and told their stories of suffering in various SGM churches where many of the same men decided cross-organizationally what course of action would be taken. That alone proves that decisions and things aren’t handled on a local level, but at top organizational levels.

It truly saddens me that a person such as yourself who has kids of her own isn’t really horrified and scared sh*tless that her own children could have been such a statistic, in addition, not be completely and utterly dismayed and disgusted by little kids being raped and pedophiles rings happening in these churches, while glossing over the fact that it is systemic. I think the people on this blog and many others I have encountered know more about your organizational structure, where the power lies, how decisions are made, its history, etc… than you do.

I mean, I think it is inexcusable for a people to say well, we don’t really know much abut what’s going in. And then just continue on blindly following the masses. You guys at least have enough info to know that there is a problem. Why not investigate it more? Why just settle for what one person tells you because he is your pastor? My dear, you are far too easily satisfied with these pat answers. You are far too trusting and your discernment really coming across as undeveloped.

Lisa, even if you chose not to leave at this moment but simply admitted how effed up this situation is and that it horrifies you, I think that folks would have more respect in some sense. But it see,s that Dee had to really pull teeth to get you to say how horrible this is and even still your time and voice appeared so passive.

Bottom line: there is too much self-concern and self-interest in the church for people to take a stand and vote with their feet and say we will not tolerate this EVER!!!! You are one if the lucky ones–this didn’t happen to you. Yet, it pains me to say that I do feel sorry for you that you cannot declare this all as vile and evil that it is and actually struggle with calling a spade a spade. You are loopholing the hell outta this situation and trying to appeal to innocence and lack of knowledge as much as it will win you favor and a pass to say you didn’t know, therefore you aren’t responsible for taking action. Being sorry just isn’t enough. Praying isn’t enough. Simply by staying, your message is loud and clear and it is that you wish to support this organization that is fundamentally flawed because of what’s in it for you. That makes me incredibly sad.

Lisa, thanks for coming here and commenting so honestly. As I’ve read your comments, I remember my own ambivalence about SGM. Yes, I left. But even so, I still defended them. (This was when many things were still hush-hush.) I still recommended them to people, and although I was actually working for other churches as a musician, I looked down on all the others as not really knowing how to do church right.

Was leaving difficult? Yes. Change is often difficult, even when it’s a change for the better. But leaving was not as difficult as staying in a situation where I had forgiven but could no longer trust. When I left, I went to work for another church as a musician, so many of my acquaintances did not know it was for a personal reason — I had been forbidden to tell anyone what had actually happened. My husband stayed for various reasons, though he’d never been much of a kool-aid drinker and had bucked the system many times.

At one point, his homegroup leader told him he needed to MAKE me come back to the church. And my husband said, “No. She is an adult, and she can do whatever she wants to do.” Later, the HGL and his wife came to our house one night to try to talk me into coming back. I quietly but vehemently said NO, and gave a few reasons why I would not be going back, and smiled until my cheeks hurt. To their credit, they told me I was always welcome in their home and at homegroup.

After this, nobody said a word to my husband about the situation, but he noticed that his name was removed from the membership directory, and our birthdays and anniversary was no longer printed in the bulletin, er, excuse me — announcement sheet. They can’t just say bulletin like normal people.

One of the reasons people find it difficult to leave is the heavy teaching that equates church membership with marriage. That has been discussed in other threads. They seem to miss the principle that analogies are often imperfect. Sure, it’s honorable to keep your commitments. But the idea that you promise to worship with and only with a particular group of believers for the rest of your life seems incestuous to me. Marriage and church membership may have some similarities, but they aren’t on the same level. Nowhere does the Bible tell us to go out and find more marriage partners, but it does tell us to go into all the world and make disciples. But they wanted to make sure that cold hard cash that could go into the offering buckets wouldn’t be misdirected towards Promise Keepers or spent on WWJD bracelets.

Though I left, I pretended nothing was wrong, and even recommended them to people. I looked down on the church where I worked as just not knowing how to do church, and even joked about being a missionary to them. It shames me to admit that. And yet, at the same time I was defending them, I couldn’t figure out why I felt upset and unsettled every time anyone even said SGM, or mentioned their latest CD release or marriage conference.

It was a few years before I could admit how deeply the SGM incident had affected me. I had no idea that blogs existed. One night, I clicked some random link on FB, and in a few moments found myself on the sgmrefuge blog, then survivors and TWW. At first, I was defensive. How could people say all these things? And as I continued, it became clear that the affront I’d left over, though small in the grand scheme, was a symptom of a huge problem of control and manipulation. God began to heal me and set me free, and gave me a huge amount of compassion for those who had been hurt, especially now for the children who were doubly abused due to the arrogance of the SGM theocracy. And I thought about people who had quietly disappeared over the years, and I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that something was rotten in Gaithersburg, and we could smell it all over the nation.

And the HGL and wife? They’re out now! And many of the women who’d tsk-tsk’d me in the grocery store when they asked where I was going to church are now out, too, and the huge sorrow and burden I had for those who were being flim-flammed is lifted. There are still a few who have their heads in the sand, but I hope they’ll find freedom soon.

Lisa, I can really understand your ambivalence. I hope the Lord will lead you out of there to a healthy place. Keep reading, keep researching, keep praying, and know that you are not alone.

Trina wrote:

Side note: TWW is to CJ Mahaney/SGM as Steph Drury is to Mark Driscoll. Discuss.

Oh, my bad, ?Freudian slip or something, but I read CJ and instead answered with Piper! Here’s a weak twitter-esque CJ nut-ism.
@CeejMahaney: Driscoll is to be mightily emulated, so I also read my wife’s emails. #CJwifesmokin’hawt #whited sepulchers

Haitch wrote:

My question to you is: have you experienced similar hurt or pain in any of your church attendance history to date? I suppose what I’m really trying to ask is: have you ever had any first-hand experience of what those who are commenting here are describing and warning you about?

No, not to the level that some here and on survivors have experienced. I know people first hand who’ve been hurt, but again not at that level. I appreciate that deb & dee and other bloggers are exposing this stuff. I just don’t think it’s necessary for every single person to leave their SGM church because of it.

I think there’s a place for staying and addressing problems, though I don’t think anyone should feel compelled to stay. And that doesn’t mean we’ll stay forever. It would be different for me if my pastor actually did some of the things alleged in the lawsuit or if I was aware of situations like this at my church. But I think injustice can be addressed without necessarily having to leave.

I think progress can and is being made at our church. They know to call the police. I recently learned that they utilize outside help when needed in counseling situations (such as psychiatrists).

However, I still think it’s detrimental to our church to be associated with SGM (that’s what I meant about detrimental above, went back and read it again)…both the influence and the appearance of being associated with it.

Lisa –

"However, I still think it’s detrimental to our church to be associated with SGM (that’s what I meant about detrimental above, went back and read it again)…both the influence and the appearance of being associated with it."

So it appears, then, that you (or your church) is making a sacrifice for the greater good of something? What that "something" IS I don't see.

You'd rather not be associated with SGM (for good reason) so staying makes no sense. What I have quoted above you have stated several times in different ways. Yet, it seems very unlikely that your church will leave SGM since your pastors are completely immersed in the polity writing process. It wouldn't look very good if Sasser didn't sign up for the polity position he helped create.

Your church isn't leaving SGM, so I find it very strange that you keep making comments as quoted above. It seems that you either aren't being sincere when you state such things, or you aren't living in reality. Only you know.

In any case, the polity laid out by the polity committee gives NO decision making to the people in the pews. You are just along for the ride . . . unless you leave your friends. The very people that build their lives together, as their leaders encourage so strongly, get ripped apart if they come to a point when they can't support the leaders.

The leaders ARE in a position to rule over the congregants instead of serving among them. They, in turn, answer to the men on boards outside of their church, instead of to the people who know them best and live among them. No thanks.

Lisa, If anything, leave for your kids sake.This is not about you but about them.All of this crap is being ingrained in their minds as if it is solid truth.Think about the impact(damage) your teachings and church is having on them.Hopefully you will do the right thing for their sake.It’s not always about you.

@ Nickname:
Whew, indeed. But . . . Amen!

@ Nickname: Superb comment, Nickname!!!

Nickname wrote:

Don’t think of helping SGM to reform. Think of bringing SGM leaders to their knees for what they have done to innocent victims, not just once, but over and over again. And realize that they did it not only to the specific victims, but to all of us. They violated our trust. They violated our financial support. They violated the laws of God and man. They violated the reputation of the church. They must be STOPPED from doing this, ever again.

Amen and AMEN.