"The head of a US church group that is facing a class-action lawsuit over the alleged widescale cover-up of sexual and physical abuse of children will be in South Africa for a gospel tour in April, sparking debate among locals."
While C.J. Mahaney gets back to business as usual via the conference circuit, some South Africans are challenging the decision to include Mahaney as a speaker. Earlier today a Durban news outlet featured this headline: Sex scandal clouds visit by church group (see above link). The article states:
"The lawsuit against leaders of Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) and its churches was filed in October by three alleged victims of abuse, and was amended last Friday to add five others.
SGM’s president and co-founder, Charles Joseph Mahaney, is named as one of the defendants and is also one of five guest speakers at the Rezolution 2013 “What is the gospel?” conference being held in Durban, Cape Town and Joburg in April. However, Mahaney is speaking only in Cape Town and Johannesburg."
Rezolution 2013? Sounds way too similar to the Resolved Conference that came to an end after an eight year run.
We are continuing to monitor The Gospel Coalition website, which so far has been tight-lipped about 'the lawsuit'. If and when this crowd mentions the highly newsworthy information that a class action lawsuit has been filed against Sovereign Grace Ministries, its two founders, and other key individuals, we will be sure to let you know!
In the meantime, Mahaney will be speaking at The Gospel Coalition's National Conference April 8-10 which will take place in Orlando's Rosen Shingle Creek Resort (the same place where the SGM Pastors Conference was held just a few months ago). According to the speaker line-up, Mahaney will be discussing Knowing God as Father: Understanding the Doctrine of Adoption. Please scan the list of 'winsome' Calvinsta speakers who will be rubbing elbows with Mahaney during their vacation (err conference).
Following this conference, Mahaney will be jetting off to South Africa where he will be speaking at the Rezolution 2013 Conference in mid-April. If you click on the link, you will see some familiar faces beside CJ, namely, Mark Dever, Ligon Duncan, Kevin DeYoung, and Bob Kauflin. Looks like the Together for the Gospel (T4G) crowd is trying to enlarge it's territory…
Getting back to the article linked above, a spokesman for Rezolution, Alan Schuster, confirmed that those who organized this conference "were aware of the lawsuit, which he said SGM was 'busy sorting out'." Shuster appeared to excuse the debacle by stating that "the action dates back to incidents that allegedly took place 30 years ago". Shuster defended the inclusion of Mahaney as the following remarks indicate:
“We believe in the premise of innocent until proven guilty. I don’t believe we have anything against Mahaney coming to South Africa,” Schuster said.
“He was invited as a guest speaker, and until other things come to light, we believe in his character.”
The organizers of this conference may be looking the other way, but there are those in South Africa who are so concerned that they tipped off the newspaper (see below).
"Reverend Ian Booth, chairman of the Diakonia Council of Churches, agreed, saying that if ever there was a question of a person’s integrity, that should be cleared before they were invited as a guest speaker.
The head of The Evangelical Alliance of SA, Reverend Moss Nplha, said the conference organisers should be cautious and instead wait until the outcome of the court case.
“Scripture says we are to flee not only evil, but every appearance of it,” he said. “I would be cautious.”
However, KZN Council of Churches spokesman, Lucas Ngoegjana, sided with Schuster, saying it was too early to make a full condemnation as it was still before the court."
The article then summarizes the allegations, as follows:
"According to court papers, certain individual defendants and other “predators”, who are not named, had repeatedly physically and sexually abused children.
The papers alleged that:
* Although this information was known to the defendants, including Mahaney, they “cared more about protecting its (SGM’s) financial and institutional standing than about protecting children, its most vulnerable members”;
* The defendants failed to stop repeated and ongoing sexual predation occurring at SGM churches and organisations, including Covenant Life Church and Covenant Life School in Maryland, US, in the 1980s and 90s;
* The defendants failed to report known incidents to the police and encouraged parents not to do so either;
* The defendants misled police, in cases where these incidents were reported;
* Many of the eight plaintiffs and class representatives were repeatedly abused during their childhood, some as young as two and three years old, on the church premises and at church events such as picnics;
* Convicted paedophiles were allowed to work unsupervised at the church with children;
* Some alleged victims said they were made to “reconcile” with their perpetrators."
As we have mentioned before, C.J. Mahaney will be the chapel speaker at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (SEBTS) next Thursday, January 31. Then February 1-2 he will be speaking at the SEBTS 20/20 Conference , which is geared toward college students. Perhaps these three speaking engagements were planned years in advance. However, we will be watching to see who invites Mahaney to speak at their conferences now that his integrity has been called into question.
If you are concerned about Mahaney addressing conference attendees at these three upcoming events, you may want to consider voicing your opinion to the conference organizers. Here is some helpful information:
(1) 20/20 Conference, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary
Title: “Gospel And Mission”
February 1–2, 2013
Wake Forest, North Carolina
Contact: http://www.sebts.edu/contact/default.aspx
http://www.sebts.edu/contact/complaint_policy.aspx: This is a page
explaining their complaint policy; then it links to the URL above. Main
thing to remember is to begin your comment with “Public Concern/Complaint.”
(2) The Gospel Coalition National Conference
April 8–10, 2013
Orlando, Florida
Title: “His Mission: Jesus In The Gospel Of Luke”
Contact: http://thegospelcoalition.org/contact/
(3) Rezolution 2013 Conference
April 11–24, 2013
South Africa (Capetown, Durban, Johannesburg)
Contact: http://www.rezolution.co.za/Contact_Us.html.
On this page, you’ll see:
REZ QUERIES:
Alan Schuster
al@antioch.org.za
083 331 2567
However, if you click on or copy the email address, it changes to this:
Dee and I continue to keep our focus on those who have been hurt.
Please join with us in praying that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven…
Lydia's Corner: Deuteronomy 5:1-6:25 Luke 7:11-35 Psalm 68:19-35 Proverbs 11:29-31
This is quite interesting. CJ and his son, Chad, have a fairly new sports blog. I noticed it yesterday and saw that the article was written by Chad, so I didn’t look closely. Today I took a closer look and noticed that Chad quotes his father, CJ. The article is about Lance Armstrong and lying. (http://goo.gl/YG6Uj)
Here’s an excerpt:
In my dad’s article, “Hunting Tiger Woods”–from a previous tale of lying exposed–he explains the consequences of sin:
“Sin Lies
The Bible in general, and the book of Proverbs in particular, reveals an unbreakable connection between our character, our conduct, and the consequences of our actions. These three are inseparable and woven by God into His created order.
Deception is part of sin’s DNA. Sin lies to us. It seeks to convince us that sin brings only pleasure, that it carries no consequences, and that no one will discover it. Sin works hard to make us forget that character, conduct, and consequences are interconnected. And when we neglect this relationship—when we think our sins will not be discovered—we ultimately mock God.
Sin Hunts
We’ve all experienced it: Sin lies to us. We take the bait. And then sin begins to hunt us.
One commentator on Proverbs articulated this truth like this: “The irony of a life of rebellion is that we begin by pursuing sin…and end up being pursued by it!….You can ‘be sure your sin will find you out’ (Num. 32:23).”[1] In other words, sin comes back to hunt us.”
My dad concluded his article saying:
“And this story should humble and sober us. It should make us ask: Are there any so-called “secret sins” in my life? Is there anything I have done that I hope nobody discovers? Is there anything right now in my life that I should confess to God and the appropriate individuals?
And this should leave us more amazed by grace because there, but for the grace of God, go I.”
“Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper” Proverbs promises, “but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy (28.13).”
If we lie, our story will seem perfect in the moment, but it will always end “bad and toxic.”
@ Julie Anne
Leaving aside CJ’s obvious hypocrisy, if that’s a sample of the way he teaches — well it does my head in. It’s actually a pretty good example of the kind of deceptiveness it’s talking about — something that sounds really holy in its detestation of sin until you read a little closer, and find it’s actually rather strange. This breast-beating that we would all do what Lance Armstrong did if we weren’t God’s elect (isn’t that the implication?) is so demonstrably untrue — not all non-Christians are liars and cheats (and, being honest, I’ve known some Christians who were)
The grace of God is a reason to dance and rejoice in the overwhelming love that has forgiven us and set us free, not living in terror of this entity called sin that’s always pursuing us. I was taken in once by someone who talked about sin in that way and ended up being the most spiritually and emotionally abusive person I have ever known. These days the radar goes into overdrive when I hear things put this way.
Maybe CJ’s problem is that he’s so busy looking back over his shoulder for the sin that’s pursuing and hunting him, that he can’t see what’s under his nose!
When you read Mahaney on sin and humility, and Driscoll on the love of attention (http://theresurgence.com/2010/06/14/dont-go-diotrephes, pointed out by Julie Anne on her blog), you have to wonder if these guys, and others like them, are fools rather than knaves. Or are they knaves with absolutely no capacity for shame and embarrassment? I knew an “elder,” who, when I confronted him with his misdeeds, truly seemed to not know what I was talking about. This doesn’t let them off the hook, but it probably makes them even more dangerous.
Imo, CJ is absolutely trying to cast doubt on his culpability regarding the lawsuit. What better response could he have, other than to come clean? A master in the art of projection.
I don’t have the words to express the sorrow and outrage I feel at what so many have suffered at the hands of christian leaders or as a consequence of their teaching.
I am truly sickened by the “business as usual” attitude of these christian leaders when one of their own is accused of abuse or the cover-up of abuse. They seem to think they are untouchable so they close ranks around their fellow leaders and show no concern for the victims and no concern for the truth. Protecting their revenue streams seems to be their only priority.
So the organisers of the Rezolution Conference in South Africa think that we need CJ to teach us “what is the gospel”? Have they any idea how vile that is in the light of what has been revealed about him?
Thank you Dee and Deb… if it wasn’t for TWW, the article about CJ and SGM would not have appeared in a newspaper in South Africa.
@ Julie Anne:
“The article is about Lance Armstrong and lying.”
Oh that’s rich. Armstrong comes clean while SGM continues to hide and Mahaney has the gall to pick on Armstrong? And as if cheating at sports is even in the same universe as child molestation… At least Armstrong has done good helping cancer survivors (my dad is a cancer survivor, and I can tell you that survivor care/support is MUCH better due to his efforts). All Mahaney has done is spread oppressive/bad theology.
Excellent post Deb!
Hey Julie Anne, I took a look at the sports blog lol.
Don’t you think “Boy Talk” would be a better name for it? Haha I do!
The girls have their blog and the boys have theirs.
The one thing in common? Everyone promotes CJ! Haha, losers.
There’s also a list of tweets. Did you see those?
It is obvious by now what CJ Mahaney is thinking about everything. About his role within the whole SGM fiasco, the documents, screwing everyone, taking his family and relocating to Louisville, the victims, the lawsuit – everything.
Its contained in this tweets:
Then this one:
In light of the circumstance the man finds himself in, one might wonder about the cards he is holding. What might be in his hand? What is he bolding on to?
Here it is right here. It cannot be clearer than this.
These are fighting words revealed on a blog that has to do with sport.
Here are some definitions for sport: (from my Webster’s dictionary)
1. That which diverts and makes merry; play; game
2. Mock; mockery; contemptuous mirth
3. That which one plays, or which is driven about
4. To trifle.
Here’s an example of the word used in a sentence, which is fitting:
“The man that laughs at religion sports with his own salvation.”
So game on Pastor Mahaney. Go ahead, keep playing the “cross” card, the “trials” card, the “suffering servant” card. Make sport of this whole thing. Act like its one big competition, like its a trifle. Mock the pain and suffering of others. Go ahead, think of this like its just a game. A diversion.
Problem for Pastor Mahaney is he doesn’t have a single “truth” card in his hand. And we all know that in the end, the truth prevails.
Game over CJ. Its time you left the field and took your scrawny team of weaklings with you. Tick, tick, tick….
I notice that at the Gospel coalition conference, Noel Piper is giving a talk on ‘My call to missions: missed or misunderstood?’ Noel writes that as a young woman she wanted to be a missionary nurse, but went on to be neither. This reminds me of a post this week on the Girltalk blog by Nicole, eldest daughter of CJ Mahaney. In a tribute to her grandmother, Nicole writes that as a young woman of 21 she was ‘arrogant’ and ‘annoying’ (her words) because she had ‘had all kinds of dreams and ambitions to do great things for God’ and to be a missionary. She contrasts this to her deceased grandmother who never had ambitions beyond stay-at-home-mom. Nicole notes that she never became a missionary and that she now defines ‘great things for God’ differently. In reality, I am sure she actually had no choice but to become a stay-at-home-mom: she was taught that that is her role as a woman. This is not the first time Nicole has written about this desire she once had.
Link http://www.girltalkhome.com/blog/why-my-grandma-was-great
These two ladies – Noel and Nicole – make me very sad. I see them both as capable and intelligent women who once had a call to serve God in missions, but repressed and ignored it because of the restrictions placed on them. Both of them now justify the decision by appealing to the confined ‘role’ that they have been told they can have. 🙁
"Deception is part of sin's DNA."
Would people that do not know what they're talking about stop using DNA as an attempt to illustrate their point of view?
Particularly some PK that is doing nothing but lapping up the vomit his daddy spews over the internet.
First, there is no proof that sin is genetic and if it is, you get it from your father (likely the 23rd chromosome.)
Second, if deception is the heir apparent of sin, spawn of Mahaney should be ignored. DNA is a polymer of nucleotides held together by a five-sided sugar(deoxyribose)-phosphate backbone forming a double helix by hydrogen-bonding with its complementary nucleotide (A to T, G to C). Nothing is "in your DNA" except that, and certainly nothing as conceptual as deception.
Debra Baker,
Excellent point about DNA and sin. 😉
I have grown weary of this over-used terminology. The lingo coming out of the Calvinista crowd is like a broken record.
May,
Yes! What is really sad is how many young ladies have followed in Noel and Nicole's footsteps and are just now realizing that God gave them incredible gifts besides the domestic kind that they squandered due to peer pressure and idol worship.
I pray that each of us would listen for that still small voice, not the voice of the Calvinistas whom I believe squelch the Holy Spirit.
@ Evie:
Evie – ^^^^^^55555s on your post (high fives). I love the way you think.
I pretty much have to sit on my hands when I read these guys’ tweets. I could really get myself in trouble. The arrogance, the denial, etc. I just gets me riled up.
Hester = spot on – my thoughts exactly.
May, You’re right – the Mahaney girls did not have a choice, but become housewives (who have been very well taken care of by daddy, btw). But I was very saddened this week when I read on Girltalk one of the posts about how she was focusing on training her youngest child who is just leaving the baby stage into toddlerhood. The post was that she was going to take her mom’s advice and focus on one problem at a time. At SGM and similar churches, parents are taught that the #1 thing they can do with their children is training in obedience. Is there grace for one infraction? Not in my experience having been in these circles. Here we go again . . . I can’t help but think of the lawsuit and Carla Coe when reading that.
@ Julie Anne:
But I was very saddened this week when I read on Girltalk one of the posts about how she was focusing on training her youngest child who is just leaving the baby stage into toddlerhood. The post was that she was going to take her mom’s advice and focus on one problem at a time.
SERIOUSLY . . . how many problems can a healthy baby going into toddlerhood have??? She sounds like she's dealing with a juvenile delinquent coming out of detention. They really must believe that babies are capable of some awful things.
Deb and Julie-Anne,
I also noticed that post about training a toddler in one area at a time and interestingly the somewhat obscure comment about ‘there will be consequences’ if he continues to disobey. I am assuming spanking is ‘the consequence’. But why is it not said explicitly?
Something else really strikes me. The girls at Girltalk are continually going on about how “obedience is the gateway to understanding the gospel.” There are dozens of posts reiterating this recently. I have been a Christian for many years but I have never come across this teaching. Is it unique to SGM can anyone tell me? It disturbs me and seems to miss the point entirely that if there is a ‘gateway to understanding the gospel’ it’s the Holy Spirit!
I am really glad I don't think of my interactions with my children in such a negative light as to characterize them as problems to be handled. And, sorry ladies, but obedience is not the gateway to understanding the Gospel, it is knowing how much we can't do it ourselves, how much we need Jesus, and how eager Jesus is to take our burdens, our works including obedience don't make the mark, duh, folks, this is basic Christian 101.
@ Bridget and Julie Anne~
I read that GT article too. It made me so sad. When I think of the word- train, I think of dogs. I train our dogs to fetch and sit and not bite. I never heard that word in relation to children, so this is all new for me. I mean, sure, we want our kids to obey…but a toddler? When my son was a toddler I figured, ok…I need to keep this kid from killing himself (lol) so I need to provide a safe environment for him and remove and distract when things get crazy. I did not worry too much about training for this or that or whether he had this sin or that. He’s 14 now and very obedient and likes to be around me. How did he get that way? I guess we just loved him in all his craziness. I didn’t know really what to do-having had a bad example of a mother with my own mom and and a mil who was no help. I just know I didn’t receive much love from my own mother, so I made sure to give our son a lot. And… to just be friendly and nice to him like I would to a girlfriend. Like-instead of instantly criticizing him when he says silly things like 14 year olds tend to do (that I know will be changed to the exact opposite in 5 minutes)…I have a set of 5 responses I use–1) Oh…2) wow…3) how interesting…4) really…5) hmmm.
My husband’s dad used to say –don’t sweat the small stuff. I would guess there’s a lot of sweating going on at in Mahaney clan.
@ Deb:
I’ve had issues with this for a long time. I bought into the concept that a parent has a right to raise their child according to their own beliefs. And, to a certain extent, I still support that. But, it crosses a line when a child is raised in such a fashion that they no longer have a choice in what they will do with their lives or what they will believe. Many in these camps will contend that the kids do have a choice. But, if they choose not to follow in their parents’/churches’ footsteps, they will be shunned, ostracized, and badgered for not doing so. There is no free will. Add to that the fact that sometimes the children aren’t even receiving a decent education to engage with the wider world, and you have effectively shoehorned that child into the parent’s dogma.
May
This “obedience is the gateway to the gospel” is part of the Calvinista worldview. The true gateway to the gospel is understanding that we cannot save ourselves, we cannot perfectly obey, and that Jesus took care of the problem and has offered us grace. Calvinistas return to the OT by emphasizing sin and wanting us to eradicate it in our lives. We cannot.It is a losing proposition. They promote a severe view of God who is constantly kicking un in the pants. The pastors in this crowd also emphasize sin It is part of a control mechanism
I have been reading at SGM Survivors that the latest statement from pastors is “I am so sinful that god cannot show me my sin.” I swear that this stuff causes people to lose their minds. Their faith is a neurosis, not a relationsship.
Debra Baker said~
“I am really glad I don’t think of my interactions with my children in such a negative light as to characterize them as problems to be handled. And, sorry ladies, but obedience is not the gateway to understanding the Gospel, it is knowing how much we can’t do it ourselves, how much we need Jesus, and how eager Jesus is to take our burdens, our works including obedience don’t make the mark, duh, folks, this is basic Christian 101.”
Wise words there, Debra!
@ Diane:
I love the way you parent. This is where I’m at right now. Not that we don’t have boundaries, but, above all, I want them to know and feel how much I love them. My mom wasn’t a very good example either. I think that’s why the patriarchal church I joined looked so normal to me.
@ BeenThereDoneThat~
You know what is at the root of my 5 responses? lol I was riding along in a car with a female relative of my husband and her daughter. The 3 of us. The daughter was 18, and, as 18 yo’s do, she made one of those proclamations: “I am NEVER going to let my children watch TV”, said she. I lol inside, thinking– yeah…right. I did not say a word. But I did not expect the following to happen.
Her mom instantly challenged her with all kinds of responses like–what are you talking about…that is crazy…why, tv is fine…what is your problem with it…I let you watch tv…there is so much good on tv…public television is great…tell me why you have such a problem with it…who have you been talking to…etc.
Just on and on and on and there was no escape for me since I am in the car. I felt badly for the daughter. They got into a huge fight over it. Talk about uncomfortable!! And awkward. lol Oh well, I remembered that incident like it was yesterday and thought I am never going to do that to a teen.
“”you have to wonder if these guys, and others like them, are fools rather than knaves. Or are they knaves with absolutely no capacity for shame and embarrassment? I knew an “elder,” who, when I confronted him with his misdeeds, truly seemed to not know what I was talking about. This doesn’t let them off the hook, but it probably makes them even more dangerous.”
Well JeffB, this is the million dollar question. So glad someone else ponders these things! My contention is that it hardly matters. We are about spiritual things not pragmatism. It hardly matters to me what their “normal” is which is pretty much how these things are explained away or viewed by those in the pit with them.
You nailed it totally: It probably makes them more dangerous.
Oh, it absolutely does.
I’m sure I made a lot of mistakes with my now teenage son. Yes, I did spank him on occasion–when it was deliberate defiance–and I used no more than 1-3 swats on the rear end, and with his pants up. We have also taken away certain privileges that he has.
But, I also think we tried to understand what phase of growth he was in. I can only think of a handful of times I spanked my son, and only a handful of times when he had privileges taken away.
When my son started crawling and then walking, we made sure to do plenty of child proofing. When he started showing an interest in my pantry, I put all of my canned foods on the lower shelves and anything breakable on the top shelves where he couldn’t get at them. That way, he could knock down all the cans he wanted to. I think I have a picture of Matthew in my pantry with Campbell’s Soup cans at his feet.
Matthew’s had his share of tantrums. We’ve tried to ignore those. One time he did this dramatic slump to the floor, and I just looked at him and said, “Oh.”
But on the other hand, we have also told him stuff like, “You don’t necessarily have to like it, but you do have to do it. Sometimes I have to do things I don’t like, too.” In other words, trying to communicate to him that his feelings are OK. I’ve also said to him, “It’s OK to be angry. It’s not OK to be mean to people.”
I know we don’t do perfect discipline, but I hope we try.
Dee – you’re right – it’s not about a relationship. The focus seems to be almost entirely on one’s sin; and, in the case of a parent, showing your child his/her sin. The Mahaney daughters’ tribute to their mother at the ‘Honouring CJ event’ was almost entirely about how she would patiently show them their sin and ‘deal with it and work through it with them’. Often this took hours, and went on into the small hours of the night apparently…I find this totally alien. Yes, I do pray for God to show me my sin, but there is nothing I can do or indeed anyone else can do to ‘deal with it’ or ‘work through it’…All I can do is seek forgiveness and enjoy the freedom that is promised in Christ, who dealt with my sin at the cross once and for all.
“These two ladies – Noel and Nicole – make me very sad. I see them both as capable and intelligent women who once had a call to serve God in missions, but repressed and ignored it because of the restrictions placed on them. Both of them now justify the decision by appealing to the confined ‘role’ that they have been told they can have. ”
What is even sadder is they could have had all of it: marriage, children and missions. Just about every missionary I have known from my past, which are a lot, were married with children living on the mission field. Not saying it is easy but tons of people do it and don’t think they are special, either.
“Something else really strikes me. The girls at Girltalk are continually going on about how “obedience is the gateway to understanding the gospel.” There are dozens of posts reiterating this recently. I have been a Christian for many years but I have never come across this teaching. Is it unique to SGM can anyone tell me? It disturbs me and seems to miss the point entirely that if there is a ‘gateway to understanding the gospel’ it’s the Holy Spirit!”
They are taking a spiritual truth and twisting it to be man made. And this view is ridiculous with children. The more your child obeys YOU the more they undertand the Good News?
This where the book, Families Were grace takes place, will come in handy. Think about it,. you can focus on the outward behavior of your child and get results. But what about the inward part? In fact, I would rather have a child with a pure heart because the outward stuff tends to take care of itself with less hassle. Focusing on outward behavior all the time brings rsentment and by the time they are teens they are very good at faking it. And all they have done is produce a bunch of Eddy Haskells.
Anon1, wise words about outward behaviour being ‘faked’.
Yes, it is astounding to claim that the more a child obeys their parents the more they will understand the Gospel. I just can’t get my head round it.
“SERIOUSLY . . . how many problems can a healthy baby going into toddlerhood have??? She sounds like she’s dealing with a juvenile delinquent coming out of detention. They really must believe that babies are capable of some awful things.”
They believe in imputed guilt. That is a Calvinist/Augustinian construct. That is why the Reformers baptized babies. Now they have another explanation for why babies can be saved if they die. However, they seem to view a baby who tries to rip shiney earrings off your ear as proving their”selfish evil”. Or stealinga bottle as selfish evil. I once asked what about when they hand their bottle to another baby and was told that even evil does good sometimes.
Listen, this doctrine is wacked. I have had a ton of convo’s on this subject with Calvinists. it is a real eye opener.
(Just to clarify, I do not believe we inherit Adams guilt for his sin. I believe we are judged for our own sin when we are cognitely able to know we sin which is different for everyone)
Dee, Yes! just parroting here re: “Calvinistas return to the OT by emphasizing sin and wanting us to eradicate it in our lives”. That is the way THEY see the call in the OT. What about Hab. 2:4, reiterated by Paul, “the just shall live by faith”? The saints in the OT got it, and knew that the law could never save. It was always faith in God and His grace and mercy. “Obedience is the gateway to the gospel”, hmm. Yes, the law is a tutor to lead us to Christ, but even infants can sense the difference between a parent’s frustration and love, a toddler can differentiate between heavy handedness or coldness and respectful acceptance. They even screw up the spirit of the law, which is merely to point us to our need for Christ, in the interests of total control.
As to Mahaney going to South Africa, we are seeing he has quite a few gigs coming up. Business as usual. And that is very important for him to look as if it is business as usual: Doing great things for God while these bad people try to ruin me.
Problem is, it would not work if the Mohlers, Duncans, De Youngs, Akins, etc of the world did not prop him up. Cancel his gigs until this is over. That is understandable and respectable. All these guys are doing is spitting in the face of victims. It is their quiet way of supporting Mahaney withou8t putting their careers on the line. They don’t have to say a word but share a stage with him or offer him a stage. it speaks volumes.
Anon 1, Yep. I’ve lost all respect for the RBDs over this, all respect.
The whole ‘obedience is the gateway to understanding the Gospel’ with regard to children obeying their parents is echoed by CJ’s (false) teaching about church members obeying and submitting to their pastors (for a good analysis of this subject see the SGM Survivors’ Blog). CJ’s sermon, as quoted on this blog recently, talks a lot about pastors having charge of their members’ souls. It is all very Roman Catholic. So children submit to their parents, wives submit to their husbands, church members submit to their pastors. And in all three cases, there are salvic implications.
May wrote:
And that feeds right into Patriarchy. Men having responsibility of their wive’s faith – basically owning their faith.
@ Diane:
That’s sad that the mother reacted that way. Her daughter just needs a safe place to explore her thoughts and feelings about such subjects.
I had to laugh reading your five responses. It made me think of my southern grandmother, and her response of, “Oh?” to statements we made. I’ve yet to meet another person who can put such meaning into those two letters. You were never really certain at first if she agreed or disagreed with you. And sometimes she never persued it beyond that. Now that I stop and think about it, it’s very much like your approach.
Anon 1 wrote:
Anon1 – Do you remember when Tripp book came out and he was on the speaking circuit? This is what they were trying to tell us – that the other parenting models did not address the issues of the heart, but this book did. We needed to get to a child’s heart. And I think I read about changing the toddler’s heart in the Girltalk post. I’m thinking: yea, this little toddler really gets what is in his heart at this age.
Think of what parents are doing to their children by demanding instant and complete obedience 100% of the time. Toddlers are naturally inquisitive – they want to know, learn, explore, but to a SGM parent who lives by rules and legalism, opening up that cupboard is labeled “disobedient”. They think they need to change that kid’s heart by spanking. What they are doing is destroying that child, keeping that child from naturally learning about the world around him, using his imagination, etc. I’m sickened. And yes, I was part of this.
And the sheeple grow up in Christ believing that they can lose their salvation if they want to leave that local church. People on the outside wonder why they don't just leave . . . Because if they don't leave well (which is determined by the pastor/elders only) then they are shunned and even chased around town to make sure other churches know that they didn't leave well. The sheeple live in fear because of what they have been taught by their "loving" elders? I just want to know where they learned about this tyranny in the NT. Methinks it is from the cut and paste version of the Bible that they read.
First of all, so glad to see that IOL picked up this story! Some of the comments are excellent.
What I’d really love to see is the famous South African political cartoonist Zapiro (of the Mail & Guardian) pick up on this story. He’s a brilliant satirist, wickedly funny, and is utterly fearless, having faced down lawsuits from the likes of President Jacob Zuma himself (a frequent target of Zapiro’s wit).
Zapiro would have a LOT of fun with a depiction of a lawsuit-addled celeb American pastor like Ceej coming to “teach the Africans” no doubt!
Final off topic bit: I used to live in Cape Town. It’s hands down the loveliest city on Earth, hands down. 🙂 A visit there is a mandatory “bucket list” entry!
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Oh yes. Shunning, ostracizing, and badgering are favorite tactics. Ask me how I know. 🙁
@ Anon 1:
Anon you are correct about imputed guilt. Also the various Pauline exhortations to obedience in Christ are taken extremely literally.
I had a very unpleasant encounter at an old church with a (former) elder who was “on fire for the Lord” and taught some incredibly bizarro things about the importance of obedience.
Honestly, looking back, this guy was an incredibly aggressive, manic individual and in his devotion to Calvinist doctrine on obedience, it was actually frightening where he was taking it.
Julie Anne –
“And I think I read about changing the toddler’s heart in the Girltalk post. I’m thinking: yea, this little toddler really gets what is in his heart at this age.” Julie Anne
I think you might have misread about this part. She (or someone) talked about not dealing with the heart until 8 or 9 yo.
But they do believe in toddlers learning to obey. Every child is different and just because they can say the words, doesn’t mean they understand the concept behind the word. When babies learn to talk they associate words (usually nouns) with the actual object and move on from there. I doubt they know the concept of obeying. It seems more like training the child to respond to a certain command and the child knows that if they don’t do it right, they will experience an unpleasant result.
Bridget wrote:
Thanks for the correction, Bridget.
Yes, the obey thing. What we have modeled in the home under this kind of parenting is works, not grace. They get it at home, they get it at church. No wonder so many leave church altogether.
By now you have to wonder about TGC. Do they think they have a bunch of power and influence or something? That if they suppress the information about one of their own and the SGM lawsuit that it would silence the story and keep it from spreading?
Good luck with that TGC meatheads. They’re talking about it in SOUTH AFRICA!!
Reading about the salvic connection mentioned above, it’s so similar to the LDS doctrine about women getting sealed to their husbands and bearing children. Joseph Smith basically mixed Catholicism with Masonic beliefs and rituals to get where he did. It was pretty easy to foist his new religion on people because of the illiteracy rate and that few even owned Bibles. (hmm, SGM only just now encouraging? Bible studies, and then in moderated group settings) And he was convicted in more than one NE state of being a peeping tom in his young adulthood.
@ May: I heard this over and over and OVER in shepherding movement churches during the 70s and 80s.
@ Diane: They’re using a translation of a passage from Proverbs, which reads (in part) “Train up a child in the way he should go…”
Again, this is something that was a mantra in shepherding circles during the 70s and 80s, and SGM is a shepherding church with a calvinista wallpaper job on top of all its earlier iterations and ideas.
One thing that makes me furious is the idea of “blanket training” wherein a mom teaches her baby to stay on a blanket with some toys….typically so mom can homeschool the (many) children she has at home. How about that for stifling a baby’s curiosity? It seems to me that maybe if you can’t handle so many children without strict discipline….maybe you shouldn’t have so many! I have also known of parents who “flick” their baby’s cheek for crying, or for wriggling while diapering! Again…get a life!
Another thing….if you read up on reformed doctrine…they believe that the OT is still vaild for today in the sense that “the church is Israel” …so that is why there is an emphasis on the Law of the OT. In a dispensational church, there is the belief that we are under the “age of grace” and are NOT under the OT laws for the Israelites. Some of these teachings are a direct result of the belief that “we are Israel.” The reformers also do not believe in the rapture of the church in the same way that many do – their theology of end times is different.
New story this morning at Christianity Today:
“Sovereign Grace Ministries: Courts Shouldn’t ‘Second-Guess’ Pastoral Counseling of Sex Abuse Victims”
Legal observers question whether clergy-penitent privilege applies to denomination accused of covering up crimes.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/january-web-only/sovereign-grace-ministries-courts-shouldnt-second-guess.html
numo wrote:
Shepherding(TM) is a wet dream for control freaks.
Rafiki wrote:
True Believer(TM) on the order of the Khmer Rouge with the intensity of the Taliban?
I dont understand the many people who will not ask CJ to take a seat right now until things are resolved. These are serious charges. It’s not like he was caught speeding or stealing a pack of gum from the grocery store. It is one thing to say a person is guilty before proven innocent, and treating them as guilty. I understand that even though it is very evident in many of these cases that these things happened, that he still must be proven guilty. I get that. But what I dont get is that while you dont have to say a person is guilty, you CAN say to them, listen, considering the circumstances and that these are SERIOUS charges, we need to ask you to not speak at the conference until these matters are resolved and whatever truths need to be discovered.
These folks are going to shoot themselves in the foot when/if a guilty verdict is given. Because all along they have been vouching for his innocence, rather than saying we cannot know, therefore, we will wait to see what the courts decide. In the meantime, we will limit his participation in A, B, and C because of the nature of these charges.
I went to the Rezolution 2013 Conference website and it looks like the whole getup is a calvinista export. So emailing them would be like telling red ridinghood’s big bad wolf that it is a big bad wolf. The problem is that it knows it’s a wolf even if everyone else thinks that it is gram-ma. (Oh no I just metaphorically referred to one of God’s prophet’s as a female I hope I don’t get mauled by a pack of bears).
May wrote:
No, this goes well beyond anything I have experienced in the Catholic church. Can’t say about flaky fringe Catholics, though (and we have them, too…)
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: Doesn’t sound very Catholic to me, either, although if you look at early American Puritan writing, it seems to crop up a lot. (Hester, where are you? You can give us actual citations on this!)
Bridget wrote:
“Man sees a cute little baby. GOD SEES A TOTALLY DEPRAVED SINNER!!!!!!!!”
— unidentified radio preacher I heard back in the Seventies
Anon 1 wrote:
i.e. Oh-so-Polite Sociopaths.
just a believer, if you’re interested, here are a few good titles, all by Christians, to help sort through supercessionism:
Future Israel, Dr. Barry Horner
Israelology, Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum
the Irrevocable Calling, Dr. Daniel Juster
Israel and the Church, Dr. Ronald Diprose
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: I looked some things up and actually, this *is* an old expression (dating back many centuries) in Catholicism, but I am not sure that it is defined – or understood – in Catholicism in the same way that these guys are talking about. (Kinda like how they’ve hijacked other wordss; “gospel,” for one.)
Also, I cam across this book, which seems to be The Next Big Thing in xtian counseling (TM). Is anyone familiar with it, or with its author?
Just posted this morning on Christianity Today, an article with some legal critique of the apparent “First Amendment” stance of SGM.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/january-web-only/sovereign-grace-ministries-courts-shouldnt-second-guess.html
A key point made here is that the “clergy-penitent privilege” was apparently intended to focus “on perpetrators who may ‘confess’ and not victims or their family members who may disclose the abuse to their pastor.”
Taken with Brent Detwiler’s post of yesterday outlining what he sees as SGM’s legal argument going, I think we’re seeing some of the probable leaks in that ship unfolding …
Glad to see the Christianity Today article continuing with their stance.
Anon 1, yes, the church one of our daughters is in, uses that very phrase, “Fakin’ it ’till you’re makin’ it”.!!! It’s pretty Arminian, but the hyper-authority, legalism and child “training” are the same. I have to remind myself that these ideas are not confined to Reformed, but then, I believe Arminian doctrine itself is a tweak of Reformed. Again, I think misinterpretation and misapplication have been going on for over 1500 years. The word train, imo, relates to teach, not to abuse!
Moniker wrote:
“Specifically, SGM has defended its freedom to provide confidential pastoral counseling free of government infringement.”
“Such a stance strikes some legal observers as more of a smokescreen than a legitimate defense.”
Yay! Glad others out there see this, too.
@ brad/futuristguy: You are so on-target re. this latest reinvention of shepherding tactics… It’s the same brand with a new label, but the setup has been in place there since TAG days (in other words, since the year dot).
http://paulspassingthoughts.com/2013/01/23/stuart-scott-of-southern-seminary-is-just-another-wolf-in-the-pack/
@ numo:
Never heard of that book or person. Where have you seen it called te next thing in Christian counseling? (just curious)
@ Bridget: It comes up very high in Google search results on “care of soul.”
@ Moniker … thanks for posting that *Christianity Today* article earlier. Must’ve seen it from you posted elsewhere first … this gets kinda confusing, trying to keep up with new articles and developments, but glad it gets double-covered so we don’t miss anything major!
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
This is the problem I have with homeschooling. You have it nicely worded. And then the farce continues because they believe that getting baptized will please their parents. I contend that children shouldn’t be baptized until they are on their own. Which pretty much means never for the girls.
@ numo:
Interesting. I read the description ar Amazon, but it really didn’t provide much.
@ Bridget: I know.. but you can use the “look inside” feature; ditto for the entry on Google Books.
Just Google “care of soul” and that book will come up all OVER the place.
Dee & Deb, I love your aricles. Even if I don’t always agree, I love reading the thoughts of all your commenters. Been lurking since the beginning, only commented a few times, but challenging myself to join in the converasation a bit more!
I’m wondering if you’ve been following ABWE’s follow-up of the Bangladesh MK’s abuse situation? As a ABWE MK myself, my mother keeps me updated. It would appear Abwe has not kept silent (like SGM), but did a thorough house-keeping. They let go all staff and board members who were employed at the time of the abuse and cover-up, regardless of being implicated. GRACE has completed its investigation, and is in the final stages of releasing the findings. ABWE recently held training on Child Safety and the VP had this to say:
“Perhaps no other sin scars its victims so deeply as child abuse. That is why the safety of our children — and training others to protect them — is of the utmost importance to us,” says Tony Beckett, ABWE Vice President, Church Relations. “As a missionary agency, we realize that no one can guarantee that sexual abuse will never take place again. But, we are doing everything we possibly can to eliminate it with enhanced vigilance, implementing clear reporting procedures and utilizing experienced investigators to conduct objective investigation.”
I keep checking http://bangladeshmksspeak.wordpress.com/ for updates from the MKs, but nothing yet. I’d be curious to hear your take on how you think Abwe has handled the situation, and what you think would be the ideal way to handle a child abuse crisis in a Christian organizaion? Has Abwe done too little, too late?
@ VelvetVoice:
In the interest of full disclosure, we are still homeschooling. Lol. But I know what you mean, and you’re right. In our case, the local ISD is rated “academically unacceptable.” We didn’t think our kids were up to par anyway, since we had to use our former church’s curriculum. So, we found an online program that impressed us. In the future we may see about getting them into a charter school. For us, it is an issue of quality of education. For some it’s an issue of control of information. This makes it very sticky to categorize homeschoolers. The movement has certainly been high jacked by Vision Forum and others of their ilk. Throw in the religious environment which often envelopes it, and the kids, particularly girls, are trapped.
@ numo~
“@ Diane: They’re using a translation of a passage from Proverbs, which reads (in part) “Train up a child in the way he should go…”
Again, this is something that was a mantra in shepherding circles during the 70s and 80s, and SGM is a shepherding church with a calvinista wallpaper job on top of all its earlier iterations and ideas.”
Yep-and you know more about it than I do. I knew the roots were the RC charismatic renewal community-but I never read much about their teachings on raising children.
(Although I have read about Voddie Baucham’s first time obedience, which, I guess would count.)
@ Diane: I was young and very impressionable when all that was happening, but believe me, the emphasis on hitting kids always made me feel extremely uneasy, no matter how they tried to dress it up as being “godly.”
then again, I was afraid to speak out about it, even with close friends who were in the groups I was part of.
Guess this means Christianity Today is off CJ’s suggested reading list haha. That, and the BIBLE!
@ Diane: One other thing worth noting: the charismatic renewal was going full-tilt in more than a few Protestant denoms back in the day – by no means was it confined to RC circles.
And lots of those Catholic prayer meetings and groups had plenty of Protestants attending, being members, etc.
One thing I *don’t* recall seeing in the Catholic groups was the corporal punishment thing. I’m sure some people did it, but my own experience was that most folks ignored it. (Of course, spanking was still a given in society at that point in time; there was still corporal punishment in public schools in the 60s and through much of the 70s as well…)
BTW, this is a little off topic and I may have missed this elsewhere, but have you seen the line-up for these marriage conference events?
http://www.familylife.com/events/featured-events/the-art-of-marriage/tell-me-more/featured-experts#.UQLlXOiNvJ4
@ Evie:
I’m thinking Christianity Today was not one of CJ’s favorite reads. I believe it was probably far too liberal for him and his circle.
Never Again wrote:
oh myyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy It just never ends.
Really, I repeat, it never ends. I just looked up Family Life Today’s twitter account and found this tweet from 2 hrs ago: https://twitter.com/FamilyLifeToday/status/294867804912484352
CJ is scheduled to speak tomorrow!
Solomon’s Song of Songs
from the series: FamilyLife This Week
What is the most romantic song ever written? To find out, just look in your Bible! On today’s broadcast, pastors C.J. Mahaney and Tommy Nelson, along with Dennis Rainey, shed light on some of the loving texts tucked away in the Song of Songs.
BTDT-I don’t mean to demean you. It’s just that for years I was told I was a bad parent because we didn’t choose homeschooling, and that my daughter was going to turn out badly. However the opposite is true, concerning the kids: my daughter is smart, well spoken, and adults respect her. By contrast, the church kids are clueless about world events, angsty and sullen, and most of them have stumbled in epic proportions. I live and teach what I know, and I always told my daughter the truth about myself. And I take an example of what not to do as a parent by watching. Pretty much, I had to make it up as I go along!
Love this quote from the Christianity Today article:
Boz Tchividjian, founder and executive director of Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment (GRACE), which has investigated sex abuse allegations previously for New Tribes Mission and currently for Bob Jones University, readily acknowledges that he does not know all the facts. But the former Florida child abuse prosecutor takes issue with the SGM statement.
“Quite frankly, any time an institution—a Christian institution—responds or defends its behavior as it relates to sexual abuse allegations with quoting laws and hiding behind constitutions, it causes me concern,” said Tchividjian, a law professor and grandson of Billy Graham. “I think an authentic, gospel-centered response to sexual abuse disclosures within an institution is to be transparent and to be vulnerable.
“God did his most powerful work when his son was transparent and vulnerable,” Tchividjian added, referring to Jesus’ crucifixion.
Time to man up, Ceej. Man up.
Julie Anne wrote:
They couldn’t stomach being one-upped by Driscoll?
Driscoll found fellatio, maybe these MenoGawd will find pedo in “the loving texts tucked away in the Song of Songs”?
@ VelvetVoice:
You are NOT a bad parent for not choosing homeschooling. Absolutely not! You are a good parent for doing what is best for your child, and I applaud you for that. I bought into something I no longer agree with, and now I’m trying to navigate my way out of it. Homeschooling is not the right decision for everyone. And it’s not a good idea in some of the contexts in which it’s done. I agree with you on that. I didn’t feel like you were demeaning me at all. Rather, I think we’re on the same page with our feelings about this patriarchal environment.
I also have to admit that last week, on Tuesday I believe, the day after the amended lawsuit was made public, I posted from a “devil’s advocate” P.O.V. regarding the logistics of scheduling big conferences, legalities around contract cancellations, the U.S. litigation culture, etc.
Well, it’s now 10 days later and not a bloody peep from Ceej’s peeps. Not. One. Bloody. Peep.
That “Family Life” (barf) list of “experts” (barf) makes me ill. And they’ll continue to make me ill until they explain publicly why they are happy to share a bill with Ceej.
“Obedience is the gateway to the gospel.” Really? I thought it was a fruit of the gospel. Sounds likes works righteousness to me… They should change from Sovereign Grace to Sovereign Obedience.
@ numo~
“@ Diane: I was young and very impressionable when all that was happening, but believe me, the emphasis on hitting kids always made me feel extremely uneasy, no matter how they tried to dress it up as being “godly.”
then again, I was afraid to speak out about it, even with close friends who were in the groups I was part of.”
So horrible, I cannot imagine. Yes…I can see how people can be deceived and led on to believe this is biblical…with that whole “rod” verse thing going on in the bible. Oh–to think we were almost caught up in the Word of God/Sword of the Spirit community after we got out of college.
Sometimes I get so overwhelmed with all this false teaching I just ask…why, Lord.
@ numo~
“@ Diane: One other thing worth noting: the charismatic renewal was going full-tilt in more than a few Protestant denoms back in the day – by no means was it confined to RC circles.”
Absolutely. I had read that it started with the RCs…perhaps I am mistaken. Yes, buy no means held only to RC circles.
“And lots of those Catholic prayer meetings and groups had plenty of Protestants attending, being members, etc.”
Right…like the one Mahaney and Tomczak led…
“One thing I *don’t* recall seeing in the Catholic groups was the corporal punishment thing. I’m sure some people did it, but my own experience was that most folks ignored it. (Of course, spanking was still a given in society at that point in time; there was still corporal punishment in public schools in the 60s and through much of the 70s as well…)”
Never experienced it at home or in my RC schools–went from 1st-8th. I had wonderful nuns. Very loving. I remember one -Sister Noreen- talking about how wonderful family is and how we need to be grateful and love our parents…just a lot of positive talk. The priests were, otoh, rather gruff and not friendly.
Those guys are all washed up about the Song of Solomon.
False teaching alert!!!
numo wrote:
Whoops numo’s quote snuck into my comment somehow! 😀
Robin wrote:
Worth repeating.
Has this mophed into another gospel?
should have been *morphed*
@ Bridget:
Well, Rachel Held Evans just tweeted the CT article link to her 19,000+ followers, prefaced by “No. No. No.” Word is getting out, whether SGM and the Gospel Coalition like it or not!
@ Julie Anne:
Julie Anne, Never Again,
My church will be going through this material in a small group for married couples starting in a few weeks. The church is Assembly of God, which is very pro woman, and seems to champion equality unreservedly. We have a female associate pastor who does everything the other 2 pastors do. So I’m a little baffled that this material would be chosen.
I want to be able to dialogue with the pastor(s) on what they may not realize about this material. I know Voddie Baucham, Russel Moore, Wayne Grudem, and Al Mohler have said some troubling things — I’m having trouble locating it all, though.
numo,
you are in my thoughts.
@VelvetVoice
I just saw the comments on the other thread about your father. I’m so sorry. My prayers for you and your family. I want you to know I enjoyed chatting with you here. Thank you for sharing with me.
Robin, you’re so right about obedience being a fruit of faith! And I like your new name for SGM, too. They don’t understand grace,imo,and if so, they certainly don’t practice it. Why didn’t they just start off calling themselves SO, since they never left the shepherding movement?
@ Julie Anne:
“And in all three cases, there are salvic implications.”
Thus implying that children who don’t obey, wives who don’t submit and parishioners who don’t toe the party line are lost.
One more thing about Lance Armstrong – if C. J. had stopped to think, he would never have opened his mouth because:
1. Armstrong helped create a culture of enabling doping on his team(s); C. J. helped create a culture of enabling child abuse/molestation in his church(es).
2. Armstrong is an atheist/agnostic; C. J. is a Christian pastor.
3. Armstrong is famous in his field; C. J. is famous in his field.
4. Armstrong has owned up to what he did; C. J. hasn’t.
Given that sexual sin is singled out in the Bible as more serious than other sins (1 Cor. 6:18); teachers are held to a higher standard than even other Christians, let alone non-Christians (James 3:1); and God does not take it lightly when obstacles are placed between Him and children (Matt. 18:16, Mark 9:42, Luke 17:2) – who do you think is in hotter water here? The atheist who cheated at (essentially) a large organized game and confessed; or the Christian minister who enabled sexual sin against children in his congregations and has continued to deny it?
This from the Christianity Today article:
What’s that CJ about going deeper into the cross? Looks like someone knows how to play your game only without cheating!
I’d say Box Tchividjiano totally owned Mahaney on this one!
Not looking good for the Mahaney Predators.
Points on the board for the Home Team!! Thanks Boz Wtg!!!!
Family life Marriage Conference- Another costly conference with the “experts.”
@ elastigirl: Thanks so much.
btw, I wonder if the AoG is more open to women in ministry out in your part of the world?
My church is hosting that conference and I need help with a response I’m preparing.
@ Debra Baker:
Are you kidding about your church? It seems like a person can’t get away from this mindset!
@ Debra Baker:
Debra, if you dig around online even a little bit you can find all kinds of videos and commentaries from Baucham, Tripp and many of the other speakers, most of which will demonstrate their poor handling of scripture with nary a comment from you.
Can anyone explain just when, where and how all this “Christian conference” business got started? I don’t remember any of this going on when I was growing up, but I was raised Anglican. Maybe other denominations were doing conferences then and I didn’t notice.
@ Anon 1:
Yes. Speculating about whether they are fools or knaves can be interesting, but neither one is exactly admirable. At the least, they should not be in leadership.
@ emmy:
I don’t think we can assume we know exactly what the Rezolution Conference people are thinking. If they receive a lot of emails, it might at least prompt them to have some second thoughts.
@ justabeliever:
That’s interesting that their supersessionist beliefs might be a part of their emphasis on law. Usually, Reformed Churches believe that a “Dispensation of Grace” (not found in Scripture) began immediately after the Fall and that we are still in it. In this way they can marginalize Israel by saying that the Church began way before Pentecost when “Israel became the Church.” However, SGM seems to be aberrant in its allegiance to its own version of the Mosaic Law. I wonder how Piper, Mohler, etc., feel about this, assuming they know. Or maybe they, too, subscribe to this view. It’s certainly not the historical Reformed one.
@ RB:
I, personally, wouldn’t recommend anything by Dan Juster, but the other books are good, especially “Israelology.”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Perhaps he will introduce us to the erotic experience of porking our spouse while they’re retching and vomiting?
It has taken me years to invest my heart in another church and now this nonsense. I’m telling you, my church is Biblical but progressive and our pastor’s wife isn’t a subwife, this is out of character for them.
Please pray for discernment and that I present my concerns in a firm but respectful way.
@ Debra Baker:
This stuff was out of character for our church, too, but it crept in anyway.
Praying for you and your church …
If you want some truly barf material you can read this blog entry done by Mahaney and son:
http://www.mahaneysports.com/blog/2013/1/23/lance-armstrong-and-lying-lips-1
In this blog, C.J. Mahaney is critical of Lance Armmstrong and his lying. Mahaney goes on to talk about “sin finding one out.”
I find this unbelievable that Mahaney could talk this way after all he has done.
Mahaney lied to the members of CLC about why Larry Tomczak left PDI/SGM and Mahaney even said he would rather be dead then do what Larry did.
Mahaney blackmailed Larry Tomczak and hid that sin for over 10 years. There was a conspiracy by the top leaders of SGM to keep this sin of Mahaney hidden.
It was reported that C.J. Mahaney’s son smoked pot at CLC school. Mahaney arranged for his son to transfer schools rather than his son get expelled while at the same time other children in the same school were expelled.
http://sguncensored.blogspot.com/2011/02/cj-mahaney-covering-his-sons-sin-and.html
Mahaney’s hypocrisy has shown up in other areas including teaching about commitment and submission to local leaders and then fleeing CLC when his sin was revealed.
With all this lying that Mahaney did it is really something for him to think he is qualified to point out others sins. Talk about having a log in one’s own eye while offering to take a speck out of another person’s eye.
@ Jenny: I can remember this being done on a much smaller scale during the 70s and 80s in some charismatic circles, and there definitely was a lot of adulation for the “stars” who were on the conference circuit. But these things weren’t big media events, and they certainly weren’t so all-consuming. (Though I’m sure that if those same people were around now, they’d be doing ginormous PR and even bigger events than the calvinista guys…)
@ numo:
I remember charismatic revivals coming to town. Some churches in the area would put flyers on your car when you were parked at the Safeway. Since we were Anglicans we had no idea what revival was or who the big names on the flyers were.
I think that the internet has helped to blow out of all proportion the reputations of rock star preachers like Mahaney. It appears that same internet is now helping to take some of the wind out of their “sales”. 😉
Debra,
Great comment on DNA. Would someone tell Ceej that nonsense metaphors are not in fact a “sound doctrine” substitute for truth.
Julie Anne wrote:
Most romantic song ever penned? I’ll take Gershwin’s An American in Paris any day.
kbonikowsky wrote:
Apologies kbonikowsky, I think your comment may have got missed in the other multitude of comments. I came across the Bangladesh situation when reading the fanda eagles blog. I’ve also watched ‘All God’s Children’ on You Tube and my heart just broke. There are some very brave people taking a stand. I hope there can be a post on this issue in the future. Another question I would also be asking is, ‘bearing in mind the systemic history of abuse in your organisation, can you be sure that this abuse is still not occurring?’ In the case of NTM, and from what I’ve read, I don’t think they could answer the question ‘yes’ – even now. Even after the GRACE report. I can’t speak for ABWE. But I still don’t think that there is recognition that these missionary organisations are breeding grounds for abuse – that like bee to pollen they are attractants for abusers, and that the spiritual environment fosters ongoing abuse.
That’s my two cents worth, and I say thank God for the internet. As more of these countries come ‘online’ and children get exposure to using the internet, I hope that this can be exposed earlier, instead of the usual 20-30 year or so wait before victims/those who have suffered (I appreciate some may not like the tag ‘victim’) can speak up.
I get really angry as I type this, so I hope I’ve made sense…
@ kbonikowsky:
That’s an easy one: call-the-police.
do not call the pastor, do not collect elders, go directly to jail. @ pauldohse:
kbonikowsky
We should do a follow-up on this story. I have tken your comments and placed them in a post draft and will try to do something shortly on this. As for too little, too late – better than nothing. I am waiting for GRACE before I say more. They could have done a lot or they could be as ridiculously ineffective as Ambassadors of Reconciliation. By the way, do you know how much they paid for GRACE?
Here is a statement from SNAP regarding a friar who committed suicide after being accused of molesting a mulitple of students. Everyone should word it this way.
Judy Jones, assistant Midwest director of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, said the organization still hopes people who know about other abuse allegations against Baker will continue to come forward.
"We feel sad for Br. Baker's family but even sadder for the dozens of boys who Baker assaulted," she said in a statement.
It is perfectly true that a person is innocent until proven guilty – no matter how serious the charges. Indeed, the more serious the charges, the more seriously we must take our responsibility to give the accused a fair trial. This is all the more true in cases where the allegations involve exceptionally emotive issues.
However, there are some points being missed here.
First, and crucially, this is not a trial about whether abuse happened: that point has already come to trial and been established through free and fair due process in a court of law. This is about how such things could have happened in the first place and what was done, or not done, to enable it. The reality is that, wherever this sort of thing happens at all, it often becomes entrenched, and endemic. The point is: we know that **** happened. Bear in mind that this has always been an organisation that has laid a heavy emphasis on rigid structures and submission to authority for the good [supposedly] of those submitting. It is quite in order to require an accounting for how this failed so signally.
I have another question. You see, when Lesley and I were shunned by some of our closest friends at a previous church because the pastor told them to, nobody was calling for a fair trial for us. Indeed, even when we did manage to speak to some of them, they refused to listen to our side of the story. I have to wonder: would these noble and godly SA church leaders, who want to extend grace and due process to CJ and the gang, have extended the same favour to an unknown, ordinary believer who was alleged to have been rebellious or divisive (through questioning, for example)? Would they “believe in his character” too?
Or what if one of CJ’s party were accused of a doctrinal crime? Say, one of them had allegedly allowed a woman to teach, or had shared a platform with someone who once endorsed a book by a third someone in which that third someone had quoted, without sufficiently explicit and damning condemnation, an article by yet a fourth someone which contained phrases which could, if taken out of context and interpreted a certain way, have been understood to question the soteriological necessity of pre-millenialism or even of the virgin birth? Would they have had the same right hand of fellowship extended to them – at least until they were proven guilty?
History does not fill me with confidence on that one.
pauldohse wrote:
Yes and no. Yes, that’s the right response, no it’s not an easy one because the jurisdiction is outside the US and perpetrators who did their damage overseas can then return and in some cases have been able to escape any accountability.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
That’s an excellent point. We were never given the courtesy of presumed innocence by our former church either. Funny how those who don’t advocate that for others are the first to cry “foul” when they feel they’ve been denied.
It’s very simple really. We are a nation under the rule of law. Secular law, not “Biblical” law. That’s why we don’t allow non-virgins to be stoned outside the houses of their fathers, or allow human sacrifice under the rubric of religious liberty.
Hopefully SGM’s lawyers won’t make fools of themselves trying to argue First Amendment protection or religious persecution. SGM has sown the wind and now they’ll reap the whirlwind.
Think about this. If SGM argues clergy protection when it comes to rape, child abuse, etc then what is to stop parts of Sharia (where some of these things are part of their religion) from being protected for the same things?
No our laws are for individuals, thankfully.
Debra Baker wrote:
This made me laugh. To be fair, I think the vernacular term refers to something that is inherent in something else. By the way, I read recently about a quadruple helix DNA and its role in cancer. Interesting stuff.
Eagle, I agree! I’m completely disgusted with their silence and the fact that the RBDs are still sharing speaking platforms right now with SGM leaders. Actually, I had lost a lot of respect for the RBDs before we left our SGM, but now have lost all respect.
Jeff B, glad you approve of Israelology, the missing link in systematic theology. Care to expound re: Juster?
Thanks Haitch for replying. You got me wondering about other cases at ABWE, and I noticed that yes, there appears to be an “internal” investigation that was happening last fall. I’m not sure if it was in reference to Bangladesh or another situation. I don’t have any insider info. And any information I get from my mom is a bit optimistic…which is understandable considering she’s been with Abwe since 1953. heh. Reading the MK site and watching the youtube vids were horrifying. But, most horrifying is the sweeping under the rug and deaf ears of the Abwe leadership. Even now, I wish they’d be more transparent!
Dee, I don’t know how much Grace is paid. I tell you, I was imprsessed with Abwe’s cleaning house. And they’ve recently hired a child safety officer. You can read about his/her duties on their site. Mom got an email saying the Grace report would be released this month after the MK’s reviewed it, but it appears its been pushed back to March.
Pauldohse…yep. They should have called the authorities.
@Nick Bulbeck – “would these noble and godly SA church leaders, who want to extend grace and due process to CJ and the gang, have extended the same favour to an unknown, ordinary believer who was alleged to have been rebellious or divisive (through questioning, for example)? Would they “believe in his character” too?”
From my experience at the hands of reformed “noble and godly SA church leaders” who, by the way, are actually salivating with excitement that CJ is coming to SA – the answer is a resounding “NO”! I was accused of divisiveness for calling out a pastor for repeated lies (I had witnesses and his emails as proof). His behaviour and the shocking response of his fellow elders caused me and my family to become permanent members of the nones.
@Eagle – “No the fundagelcials really need to take some lessons and learn from the world.”
🙂 And here is a suitable proof-text for them – “For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light” (Luke 16:8)
Were we presumed innocent? Hell, no!
Remember the movie Minority Report where people were punished for crimes they might commit in the future? Yup, that was us they tried to shut us up after they decided to promote Ezzo classes but before they announced it to the church (and before I had ever heard of the Ezzos.
Yes, we were kicked out over concerns we had about those classes, concerns that were valid and they eventually discontinued the classes with nary an apology.
Of course, they had full control of the media back in those days but now with blogs and such, a couple of audacious females have the power to expose the cockroaches to the light. Watch them scuttle, desperately looking for cover…..
Debra
Only men who are protected by a patriacrhy view of life could do such things. They are weak men who would fry in the real world. We Christians give them carte blance to ply their stupidity in the church and so they continue to exist.
@ dee: totally agreed on “weak men who would fry in the real world”!
“@ dee: totally agreed on “weak men who would fry in the real world”!”
Can you imagine….only TWO 10 minutes breaks per 8 hour shift?? (That is, if you had time to take them, which I, as an RN in a very busy post-ICU floor, was lucky to get lunch much less two breaks. But that was the reality in my real world.)
Eagle wrote:
Eagle – that’s very common. Many, and perhaps most, preachers who travel around a lot bring the same message in many different places. I suppose it depends on exactly what you mean by “didn’t appreciate it”! Perhaps if someone feels that one particular message is broadly appropriate, or that it’s simply what God has given them and is one that they have thought through and can deliver well, then you might expect them to deliver it more than once.
But of course, in that case, people who walk in the light should have no problem explaining that. Always assuming you didn’t call him out with a string of expletives and broad-spectrum accusations, after throwing a bucket of raw sewage over him and while brandishing a loaded firearm (er…. OK, well, you get what I mean! 🙂 ) then I don’t see why he wouldn’t understand your point and answer it courteously.
Dee and Deb – FYI – The powers that be at SGM removed CJ’s public speaking schedule from the SGM site. I was just blogging about some ridiculous tweets that came through over the weekend where CJ was speaking at SEBTS and wanted to check his speaking schedule and it was GONE.
http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/02/03/studying-the-words-and-life-of-cj-mahaney-and-sgm-image-control/
This sure fits the typical behavior of someone trying to hide and coverup.
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Julie Anne, That's very interesting! Thanks for letting us know.
Julie Anne
How girly of them….
My husband and I attended a FamilyLife “Art of Marriage” conference at our church about a year or 2 ago, and it was a complete waste of time. We had to get up and leave when we saw all the “experts” interviewed. After fighting tooth and nail to get out of SGM, seeing some of the wackos on a big screen gave us the heebie-jeebies. We spoke to the leaders of our church about our concerns and we haven’t seen any FamilyLife material being advertised here since. FamilyLife is a relatively new organization, so there isn’t much online about them, other than positive reviews. But any group that sees Al Mohler and Dave Harvey as wise experts is dangerous in my book.
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