The God of the Mundane by Matt Redmond and A Story of Spanking Adult Children

This little book is not a call to do nothing. It is a call to be faithful right where you are, regardless of how mundane that place is. Matt Redmond 

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Amazon.com

What in the world does the issue of spanking adult children have to do with reviewing Matt Redmond’s excellent book, The God the Mundane? Stick with me and see.

The other day, I did my first book review on Amazon. I was surprised at how anxious I felt about expressing myself clearly in this forum. This is a great book and I wanted to be sure that nothing I said would detract from the author’s message. At TWW, I manage to only embarrass Deb and me. 

Here is what I wrote. 

Title: Brother Lawrence, Meet Matt Redmond link

Read this book unless you are a famous megachurch pastor, an NFL superstar, or a Wall Street mover and shaker. This book was written for the rest of us. I am one of those "everyone else" folks. I have never written a review before and even hesitated in doing so because I am no one special. But wait! That is what The God of the Mundane is all about.

Years ago, I read The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence. This 17th century monk coined the phrase "the God of the pots and pans." This "nothing special" friar penned his thoughts about serving God in his day-to-day activities in the kitchen of a French monastery. Interestingly, the words of this "not so special" kitchen monastic have survived while most of us have forgotten who the movers and shakers were in that region and time. Matt Redmond is the Brother Lawrence of our day.

Most of us live out quiet lives, tending to our families, loving our neighbors, volunteering in our churches and schools. Some of us are stuck in boring jobs but are grateful because these jobs put bread on the table. Some of us have lost jobs and are struggling to make ends meet. Then, we go to church and are told we need to be "radical." We are encouraged to be like the Apostle Paul, William Wilberforce or Martin Luther, causing a revolution and changing our world. Then, we walk away, feeling that we have somehow failed God.

Matt makes the important point that Paul was writing to the church, most of whom were not making missionary journeys or writing the great theological works of the day. The nascent Christian faith grew because average people faithfully lived their lives as servants, slaves, tradesmen or shepherds. Jesus himself chose the fisherman to be His disciples, not Roman senators. Christianity became famous because of the thousands of unnamed faithful who quietly spread the word of a life-changing encounter with a Jesus who spent more time with the unknowns than the famous.

Matt gives dignity and purpose to the faithful homemaker, bank teller, barista, fast food worker and the rest of us who continue to cause a quiet revolution as we offer our daily, not-so-special routine, in the love and service of our God. Now that is something special!

Matt says he wrote this book for (this is just one example)

A man, stuck. Stuck in a job that feels small-a job making him feel small. He is not embarrassed of his job so much as miserable….He believes the gospel but has no idea what that means for him in this dead-end job. He reads book and hears sermons. And they make his work feel even smaller. (P.1)

He quotes Eugene Peterson.

We often get the big ideas, the majestic vistas of salvation, the grand visions of God’s work in the world, and the great opportunity for making an impact in the name of Jesus distract is from taking with gospel seriousness the unglamorous ordinary.” (P.5)

He queries:

Is God sitting around waiting for each and every believer to do something monumental? Is this the warp and woof of the New Testament? Are the lifestyles of the Apostles the standard for the persons in the pew? (P. 7)

Is there a God for just and kind employers? (P.7)

He states:

We will not be famous. Oh, we want to be famous, known and revered. But that is not our reality. The reality is no one will write books about us. And, outside of our families, we will be forgotten.

This sounds terrible but only because fame-which was never ours-has obscured our view of what really is. And what is that?  That we are part of that not so exclusive group of men and women throughout history known as “everyone else." (P. 13)

And here is where Matt Redmond said something that I had never heard expressed in the same way before.  This is why he, “not so special” Matt has a new fan in me.

For years I read and thought and then taught as if Paul was the standard for those I was teaching. “Look at Paul and his singular devotion to Christ." (P.16)

I missed the obvious: The Apostles are writing to normal people. Most of them are nameless. They are Jews and Gentiles, yes. But they are also not apostles. (P.16)

The idea that God can take seriously the seemingly small, mundane tasks and responsibilities and turn them into something significant, while a strange way of thinking for us, is a common thread divinely woven throughout the Scriptures: shepherds watching their flocks by night, an old couple finally having children, a little boy’s lunch of bread and fish.” (P.47).

He makes two quips that I must include. (Matt-you live dangerously!)

There are two kinds of pastors in the main: those who speak at conferences….and those who want to do so. (p.70)

(Referring to the "all Christians are missionaries" type sermons he asks)  If all Christians are missionaries how come plumbers never speak at missions conferences? (P.33)

There is so much more I have not covered but I urge you to read the book which is a too-short, 72 pages. I wished he had kept writing. Maybe he will. I sure hope so.

Here is my take on his book. I have been thinking about this for the last week or so. Paul was writing to the nameless individuals throughout the ages.

  • Some stood their ground and became torches for Nero’s garden parties.
  • Others reached out to neighbors, caring for their dead.
  • Slaves treated their masters with undeserved love.
  • Others, in the Middle Ages, cared for those who contracted bubonic plague, often dying themselves.
  • Some lived in dugouts in North Dakota building a new life for their families in a hostile environment.
  • There are single mothers who work two jobs to care for children after being deserted by  their husbands. Yet they still have time to tell their children of a God who will never leave them.
  • Others struggle with mental illness yet cling to a greater hope.
  • There are alcoholics who finally, after much struggle, kick the habit and persevere even after slipping once or twice. Then they give time to others who walk the 12 long steps.
  • Then there is a businessman who stops in his rounds and gets a pair of boots for a homeless man.He later finds out that the man conned him but he still reaches out to the down and out.
  • There are  many people who make meals at the Ronald McDonald House  for families with sick and dying children.

It is all of you, here, who reach out to those who have been hurt and diminished by the church. You are the church. It is not the showy preacher who writes sex manuals. It is not the pastor who puts his church in debt and lives in a mansion. It is, however, a pastor like Wade Burleson who, when asked about allowing his sermons on an "E Church" said "yes", without a minute of hesitation. 

This is the church, the real church.

So, how do I tie this into Christians who believe it is their Christian duty to continue to spank their adult children?

There are many "everyone elses" who transparently share their sorrows and hurts because they want to help others in the journey of faith. Julie Anne Smith openly shared something on her blog that moved me to tears. I want you all to hear a story of redemption in the life of this “not so special” special woman. She gave me permission to share this with all of you. I wonder if I could be as bold.

Julie Anne-you are a living example of the word "humility."

Many of us have regrets about things we have done in our lives. Sometimes, these things occur because we have trusted a Christian leader or pastor. As you know, Larry Tomczak, formerly of SGM, has been named in a lawsuit, accused of spanking an adult woman. On her blog, Spiritual Sounding Board, here, Julie documents that this sort of teaching is rampant in patriarchal circles.

She quotes from the Christian Agnostic blog. He is a former member of SGM

Former SGM member who writes at ChristianAgnostic blog said this about the how spanking was viewed at SGM:

Some folks have reacted with disbelief that a young woman in her twenties would submit to this type of treatment.  I can tell you from my own experience in SGM, that many a leader in the movement spoke about spanking children that were of age.  I remember one conversation with Mark Prater, then a care group leader at Covenant Fellowship Church, in which he praised a teaching tape that spoke about a Father spanking his son who was in his late teens.  This idea that children could be spanked at just about any age, was certainly discussed by different leaders in SGM at the time that many of the alleged abuses occurred.

The other thing to understand, is that SGM preached that to obey God, one had to unquestioningly follow those put in authority above you.  For church members, it meant obeying your pastors, even when they were wrong (no kidding-I was told this by a pastor at Covenant Fellowship in my exit interview), for wives it meant their husbands, and for children it meant their parents.  Simply questioning or disagreeing with any of these “God-given” authorities was tantamount to being in full-blown rebellion to God.  This atmosphere of unquestioning obedience is a perfect breeding ground for abuse.

Such teaching has no place in the Christian church. But, it is what comes next that is important. Julie Anne’s oldest daughter, Hannah, wrote a comment on the post. Julie Anne then responded. Get your tissues out.

From Hannah JANUARY 17, 2013 @ 7:20 PM

Sure – let’s make it three Hannahs! (I’m Julie Anne’s eldest daughter). This is a subject close to my heart, because – guess what – it happened to me. In fact, my dad had “stopped” spanking me around sixteen, and then “all of a sudden” started back up again a few years later… The timing correlates exactly when we were attending the church-who-shall-not-be-named. I don’t think this was a coincidence.

Julie Anne JANUARY 17, 2013 @ 7:52 PM

Ugh, Hannah, the pain in reading your comment. It just does not leave.

I have so many regrets, so many tears as a mom. Since you brought this here publicly (no worries – I’m fine with that because I’m an open book and I kind of invited it), I’m going to respond to you openly. I told you earlier this week that I’d be covering this subject and we’re definitely on the same page after going through so much heartache, time to help heal wounds, and lots and lots of talking.

It’s very painful to read these words in print from you, Hannah, and it was immensely hard to watch that video and research this garbage knowing that we bought into these teachings – that we believed that we were being godly parents and doing the right thing. Once again, I am amazed by your unconditional love for me, that despite the horrible teachings we followed and took out on you, you have chosen the high road of forgiveness and relationship when I do not deserve it. I love you, precious daughter. ::::pass the kleenex, please:::: it’s hard to see the dang computer screen.

And for those who read TWW, now you know why I have been in a funk. Yes, this. Ugh.

If you want to understand why Christianity has continued throughout the millennia, look no further. Julie Anne is a living example of everyday Christians living everyday lives, and impacting the rest of us.  It is the willingness of real Christians to share their pain and hope with those around them that has changed the world. For every charlatan out there, there is a Julie Anne Smith and a Matt Redmond and that is why the faith persists.

This is dedicated to all the parents who read this blog and have regrets because they followed the "teachings" of men who were wolves in sheep's clothing. Those men will have to deal with God one day. A few, in this life, may have to contend with a judge and jury.  I want you all to know that you are loved and upheld by a wonderful God who understands. He can redeem the years that the locusts have eaten. 

Matt Redmond left the paid pastorate to live an everyday life while working in the banking industry. He wrote The God of the Mundane to encourage the rest of us. Julie Anne is an everyday stay at home mother who challenged a pastor gone wrong and became a blogger. On that blog, she encourages the rest of us to share boldly of our joys and our sorrows so that the world will know of a God who dearly loves “everyone else.”

I dedicate the following song  to Julie Anne, her daughter and the rest of the parents out there who have regrets.

Lydia's Corner:Deuteronomy 4:1-49 Luke 6:39-7:10 Psalm 68:1-18 Proverbs 11:28

Comments

The God of the Mundane by Matt Redmond and A Story of Spanking Adult Children — 160 Comments

  1. This approach by Matt Redmond seems the antithesis to the Rick Warren “Purpose Driven Life” merchandising set (and hence more attractive to me).

    When I was in my early twenties my father individually apologised to all family members for being unavailable and not taking an active role in our lives. Family had always taken second place to ministry work. It means a lot that a parent can humble themselves and say ‘sorry, I messed up’. You can never get the past back, but it does help with the ‘here and now’ and taking that into the future. For me, it also halted any ongoing resentment and the “I’ve been done wrong” record I had playing in my head. It was sincere, it was dealt with, and it (over time) stopped my recourse to blame (I’ve stayed away from the word ‘forgiveness’ as I think it can get loaded and a little tricky like the word ‘bitterness’ – happy to take advice on this).

  2. This post was a God-send for me. I too allowed my child to be hurt in terrible ways because of the teachings of man. It’s very hard to live down. Thank you Hannah and Julie Anne for sharing your pain, regrets, and hope.

  3. This spoke so deeply to my heart. God bless you, Dee and Deb. And, God bless you, Julie Anne. This is all bringing such healing.

  4. “The other thing to understand, is that SGM preached that to obey God, one had to unquestioningly follow those put in authority above you. For church members, it meant obeying your pastors, even when they were wrong (no kidding-I was told this by a pastor at Covenant Fellowship in my exit interview), for wives it meant their husbands, and for children it meant their parents. Simply questioning or disagreeing with any of these “God-given” authorities was tantamount to being in full-blown rebellion to God. This atmosphere of unquestioning obedience is a perfect breeding ground for abuse.”

    My son and I are watching “The Tudors” on Netflix. This attitude of unquestioning obedience is what King Henry VIII expected of his subjects. A lot of heads rolled, literally, because people dared to disagree with and not obey the king. It is a terrible thing to watch. It is worse knowing in our modern age that men actively teach this King Henry VIII tyranny today and stamp “gospel” on it when it has nothing to do with the actual gospel found in the Gospels. very sad, very sad. May this SGM teaching of unquestioning obedience die a quick death and may people be set free from it’s oppression. And may those standing by watching learn from it to never tolerate such anti-gospel teaching again.

  5. A true blessing to have found TWW. About a year ago a godly man counselled me to bring all things into the light of Christ, no matter what the dilemma.

    Dee and Deb you faithfully bring all things into the light….thank you.

    Julie Anne, may God continue to bless you in His marvelous grace.

    I just downloaded, 'The God of the Mundane'. This heavy heart has been richly blessed tonight. God is good.

  6. I’m not sure any dry eyes will navigate away from this post. Thank you for this. There is hope in the midst of darkness…thank you Matt, Deb, Dee, Julie Anne and Hannah.

  7. What a crazy-random-happenstance! I just received Matt B. Redmond’s book in the mail today and have just begun to enjoy reading it.

  8. Thank you Julie Anne and Hannah for sharing your brokenness, grace and mercy. My prayer is more parents will realize the horrors of what they have followed and how it has affected their children and have the humility to face them with sincere regret. It will save so many hearts in the long run.

  9. Guys,

    God of the Mundane is on kindle for 2.99. I just downloaded it and read first 2 chapters. His story is very special to me for many reasons.

    One of the things I have challenged folks with is how can they listen "life" advice from a guy week after week who has no clue what living in the real work world is like? Yeah, I know all the arguments. I have heard them. It still makes no sense. What does he know about it? From his summers in seminary when he HAD to work a job and could not wait to quit it so he could pastor a church?

    I am not anti-pastor, but please, stay in your area of expertise.

  10. I ache every day over regret. I see the damage in my 2 precious daughters. A part of me is so freakin' angry that I bought into the God-speak of my church. I know 100% sure that I hurt my babies/girls. Breaks my heart. And I can understand totally why they are agnostic today.

  11. @ Gail:

    Gail – my heart goes out to you. This is where the rubber meets the road and where the pain is so so real. Shoot, the tears fall yet again. Hugs to you! Email me anytime. You know I get it.

  12. Natalie I want to drink some of the same kool-aid you are drinking. Your secret is that it’s made from that water that Jesus said that if we drink from him we will never thirst again. You give hurting people hope. Thanks

  13. Gail, don’t let your yesterday’s influence your tomorrow’s. Anyone that is without sin, may cast the first stone at Gail…I just laid mine down. I think you know how the rest of that story ended.

  14. @ Gail:
    I understand the regret that you feel, and I think you’d find great comfort in emailing Julie Anne. It hurts that you can’t change the past, but there is always hope in moving forward. At the end of the day, what your daughters need to know is how very much you love them. You never know what miracles that love can bring.

  15. What a great post! Parenting is one of the hardest jobs on earth. When we, as parents, can admit that we made a mistake and ask for forgiveness, and receive it, can we fully understand the meaning of grace. We are finding parenting during the teen years to be a bit challenging, and we have good kids. It’s requiring us to humbly ask for forgiveness when we have wronged our kids.

  16. @ Julie Anne:
    When I find words I will write Julie… I am so confused & full of self contempt. However, thank-you (all) for being kind. I am a mess.

  17. @ Julie Anne:

    Julie Anne – I hear you. And I thank you for your offer. I am screwed up & without words. When I get the courage & words I want to write.

    Thank you for your kind offer, it is odd that it moves my heart to respond to a stranger.

  18. I wonder if all hope only comes at a cost to someone whose story demonstrates it … their growth through difficulties supplies the spark that kindles hope in others.

    When I read the intertwined narratives of Hannah and Julie Anne, it gives me hope about the possibilities and realities of change, and reconciliation, and mercy that finds us in the mess but moves us beyond it. So much fragility in our lives, so much brokenness, and yet these brilliant points of beauty and healing still emerge.

    A few years ago, I created a series of Tweets for the Advent season. My topic was hope, and I collected a few choice quotes on the subject. Here are a few I think honor the vulnerability of Hannah and Julie Anne in what they’ve kindly allowed to be shared here.

    “Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not permanent.” ~ Mignon McLaughlin

    “Hope is definitely not the same thing as optimism. It is not the conviction that something will turn out well, but the certainty that something makes sense, regardless of how it turns out.” ~ Václav Havel

    “We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope.” ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

    “If you hear a voice within you say you cannot paint, then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced.” ~ Vincent Van Gogh

    May whatever voices that accuse us, or try to silence us, or tell us we are fools, be outshone by the sparks of hope others receive from our everyday life lived open-heartedly for Christ.

  19. Julie Anne and Hannah, I wish you were close enough to hug, but only words can cross the gulf from one side of the world to the other. I never hit my kids, but I did send them to a Christian school where hitting was the norm. As far as I know, my 2 little introverts were never in trouble, but they were sensitive kids and should never have been exposed to such a place. My son was humiliated by the PE teacher for being a little overweight. Another time, I found out, one of his teachers actually prayed for a boy in his class that he would still go to heaven even though he disobeyed her (I was horrified when I heard that)

    every one of us has something to regret, everyone of us can give thanks that we have grown and changed — because leaving behind yesterday’s mistakes is what real repentance is all about

  20. Gail: I’d like to tell you what’s been going on behind the scenes. I think it might help you to know you are not alone. Some of the SGM victims have been in contact with Dee, Deb, and me. They know we want to share their stories – the stories that you won’t hear in the media. Last week when Dee and I spoke and were talking about how we would do things, I read through the lawsuit and instantly connected with the Carla Coe story. Why? Because it hit close to home. I wanted to discuss the culture of the Patriarchal movement because it is at the core of what I believe created the environment that allow the abuse. Our family has been in it and we’re currently negotiating our way through these difficult waters.

    I was not prepared for my emotional response when Hannah posted her comment on my blog. Even though our relationship is probably better than it has ever been, it still hurts knowing the pain we put her through. Hannah would be the first to tell you that she has not been back to church since. Of course that aspect is difficult for me, too, but I completely understand. But when Dee posted the article here and I read through the comments and came to your comment, it all came back again hard. I instantly connected with YOU and your pain. I’ve been in tears off and on for the last hour. It’s part of the grieving process. But it’s good. I did have to reach out to my support person to unload, but after hearing my support person’s response, I know God’s hand is in this. He is using your pain and my pain and the pain of the SGM victims to shed light on this insanity that is going on not only at SGM, but in Patriarchal churches.

    At first it was the pain of humiliation and embarrassment and what my daughter has gone through, but now it’s gone to anger. I’m angry that this kind of teaching exists. If I have to experience more of this grieving pain, so be it – – if only one person can be helped. Gail – thank you for being vulnerable in sharing. I am pretty sure that you have helped at least one person if not many who will read not just today, but tomorrow and months down the road. And thanks everyone for your support to me (and Dee, please don’t feel bad about me getting all worked up – I’ll be fine – now where’s my dark chocolate?).

  21. Dee,

    What an incredible book review! Bravo!!! I can hardly wait to read Matt Redmond's book. What an important message for all of us mundane Christians to hear.

    Julie Anne and Hannah,

    I have been so touched by your transparency and vulnerability. You have impacted many lives, as the comments here readily demonstrate.

    {{{ Love you guys & gals! }}}

  22. Gail

    We are all a mess in one respect or another. Jesus helps those who know they are a mess. He lets those who think they are not, muddle away.

  23. Julie Anne

    You have no idea how many people you have helped with your story. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart. This is what the real faith is all about. We share our pain and then we get out there to tell others. There were many tears shed over this post, including mine. If thinkg settle down, I plan to share my own regret about something I did a long time ago. 

  24. Years ago, friend of mine did a two-part article series and the titles have stuck with me for over three decades. I think they capture part of this mysterious process of how our brokenness, redemption, and service get intertwined:

    “My Life as a Mess …”

    “… My Life as a Message.”

    I think this is something that critics of “spiritual abuse survivor blogs” don’t realize about what God is doing in and through us. Regardless of how they interpret it, it isn’t all about what happened to us there and then, it’s where are going in the here and now.

    Dee and Deb, thanks for providing a forum that helps take us forward in our journeys with Jesus.

  25. Oh, Dee … If I didn’t find laughter to help keep me going, I’m sure I’d be depressed a lot more. Gotta wonder if Seasonal Affective Disorder is at least semi-reversed by some Seasonal Laffective ReOrder.

    And Victorious and Dee, thanks for your kind words. Glad there’s some encouragement in the notes and quotes from some of my comments. In multiple instances and kinds of spiritually abusive church/ministry situations over the years, seeing that the Spirit leads in ways that bring hope and healing – for both me and others – makes the process a bit more endurable. It’s important to share what we can with others along the way.

  26. @ brad/futuristguy:
    I find most, if not all, of your comments very encouraging. You have a gift for putting into words what I simply cannot find the words to express. I’m grateful that you contribute here.

  27. Yesterday, I (along with 400 or so others) was asked to “dream big” when thinking about justice and what we could do. We were also encouraged to righteous anger — to identify things that make us angry and to be motivated to pursue that big dream.

    One of the things that makes me angry is patriarchalism — It is the non-biblical teaching that men, especially those in the pulpit, have some special right to rule over women and children, and those in the pulpit the right to rule over men. In some cases, it extends to government, but government is way ahead of the church on the scale of justice in this regard.

    Patriarchalism is a leading cause of physical abuse of women, and of physical and sexual abuse of children, as well as psycho-social abuse of multitudes. It is the meme behind a former minister getting probation for abusing multiple children and youth. It destroys good family relationships, focuses on strength and punishment, etc.

    I am of the opinion that one cannot be a true follower of Christ and practice patriarchalism, because Jesus taught differently than that, and lived differently.

  28. Dee, thanks so much for the review of The God of the Mundane!

    After reading your review, I download the book on Kindle last night and read it. Generally I prefer more academic books that focus on biblical interpretation to enable me to make up my own mind on what the Bible is telling us. I normally avoid pastoral books like the plague because most of them are written by celebrity ministers who seem more interested in promoting themselves and ideas that are either absurd or turn out to be a short-lived fad that was long on hyperbole and short on substance.

    The God of the Mundane is a huge exception to that and expresses something that I have believed for a long time. Your ‘Christianity’ is determined by how you live your life in the countless small things of everyday life. Too many people are only interested in ‘big’ things where they can show off their ‘piety’ like the Pharisees who prayed in public, only to completely ignore their fellow humans. In just a few lines, Matt Redmond gets to the absolute core of what it means to live a Christian life:

    “Perhaps only a smile is possible. A holding of the door. An offer of assistance. That cup of cold water. All mundane, but every single one an opportunity for kindness to break in on a life just as the rays of the sun break in on a morning.”

  29. @ dee:
    Thanks Dee! I took your advice and just posted it on Amazon. It’s a book that deserves to be recommended. Thanks again for bringing it to our attention.

  30. Thank-You All for your words. I have more than a bit of healing to do. It is a grace to be heard & responded to. Now I just need to get over the acute shame that comes when I share, what is that? It doesn’t hang on me all day, just feel embarrassed. It has been 10 years since I attended the church that almost turned me into a agnostic, but for God’s faithful mercy. And I thought I had come so far, but when I read the stories of abuse, stories that horrify me, the damage done to others in HIS name, my stuff starts rising up inside. I do want to make it clear that what I went through pales in comparison to the victims and my heart breaks for their suffering. Love to you people, what a remarkable group.

  31. Julie Anne and Hannah –

    Thank you for being so open and vulnerable with your lives. I know it’s not easy and is often painful. It is our hope that God knows the everyday messiness of our lives and is our ever present help. He can use anything and anyone at any moment to bring help and comfort to us, while He, himself, is our peace. Praying that God brings complete healing to your family.

  32. Haitch wrote:

    It means a lot that a parent can humble themselves and say ‘sorry, I messed up’. You can never get the past back, but it does help with the ‘here and now’ and taking that into the future. For me, it also halted any ongoing resentment and the “I’ve been done wrong” record I had playing in my head.

    I had something like this happen with a parent too with much the same outcome. It halted ongoing resentment in its tracks. I can view that parent in a whole new light, which gives me great joy.

  33. Gail, Many don’t get it. These experiences are serious and everyone is affected differently. You might have some form of PSTD, which would be normal. Cindy Kunsman writes a lot about the signs of cultish groups AND the after effects that plague folks. check her blog out for healing and understanding: undermuchgrace.com.

    Give yourself a break. And remember, a lot of folks here fell for the same type stuff and did horrible things because they believed what some leader told them was of Christ.

  34. @ Gail:
    “Now I just need to get over the acute shame that comes when I share, what is that?”

    I’m not as familiar with psychology as some others here are, but I’ll share some thoughts. I’ve been out of my church for a year. We had long ago dropped our churches’ teachings on child training, because we started questioning, amongst ourselves, other things they were doing. But, I think my mindset toward my kids was the same. These teachings mess with your mind. After the posting of Carla Coe’s story, and when others, including myself, began to share how they’d been influenced by the patriarchal methods of harsh child discipline, I cried on and off for days. (There goes that dang “emotionalism” again. I’m just so “unstable.” {sarcasm}) I think there was something healing going on. I asked for other resources on child training, and others responded with some wonderful info. (And I’m going to read those as soon as I’m done with Matt Redmond’s book) I’ve been a little numb for the past year. Now I have hope of being a better mother to my kids.
    You know, I haven’t set foot in a church in a year. And we’ve had invitations. I haven’t been able to make it through one of Pastor Wade’s sermons yet. (Sorry, Pastor Wade. It has absolutely nothing to do with you or your message. It’s actually comforting to know you’re here.) I just can’t. I’ve been assaulted by it all for too long. But I still believe in Jesus. I’m going to take my time to work through this. I don’t blame your daughters for being agnostic. And you shouldn’t blame yourself either. “You did what you knew how to do. And when you knew better, you did better.” (Maya Angelou) I wish you peace on your healing journey.

  35. Gail, and all who kick themselves for spanking so much, give yourself some slack, forgive yourself, repent and grieve then let it go. It has taken me over 15 yrs after leaving pdi/sgm to get over it all and forgive myself. Our children were agnostic when we left too. But as they have grown, gotten older and lived their lives: as we have loved them, accepted them, discussed issues where we made wrong decisions in child discipline, asked forgiveness, kept loving them, seeking the Lord for ourselves and discussing that, it’s all good now. Some go to church, some don’t but they all read the bible and seek God for themselves.

    Don’t focus on the negative, what you did wrong. Just look at Matt Redmonds song 10000 Reasons…..The sun comes up, it’s a new day dawning. It’s time to sing your song again. Whatever may pass and whatever lies before me……let me be singing when the evening comes.

    His mercies are new every morning and we can sing His praises anew every morning.

    (Is that the same Matt Redmond who wrote the book that I want to read?)

  36. I wish that I could have been a grandparent first and a parent second! I was a very responsible parent, and taught our children to be accountable, good citizens, was concerned about their getting a good education and was protective. If I had it to do over again, I would have placed being with them much more and in a more loving, accepting way, on the top of the list, not down it, and would have appreciated them for who they were as individuals and had more fun with them.

    I was too authoritarian, for sure. But I have since sincerely apologized to our children, who have forgiven me, even though I think they struggle in the same areas I did. I believe God has mercy and grace for us and for our children, even so. It’s hard being a young parent, of young children, especially if other circumstances are involved. But He has forgiven it all, 2000 years ago! We can take hold of the reality Him being at work and rejoice that He has and will make good come from the mistakes or sins.

  37. Julie–

    Your open apology to your daughter is simply amazing. Some of us wait our entire lives to hear our parents say they are sorry and take ownership, and yet, it never comes. Some of us then move on and never expect that to happen and find strength from other arenas of support. I have found much support here and in other places in my life to know that my father’s abuse was not from God and was not right. It didn’t take me long to figure out it was wrong, but it took me a long time to get rid of the shame and embarassment, and all of the self-hatred it bred in me, along with my inability to trust men who don’t measure up to absolute perfection. It also set me up for a crazy whirlwind of becoming involved in abusive churches and bad religion, then leading to patriarchy and its false claims. All of that to search for purity and truth–which I still have not found completely, and dont have the NEED to any longer in order to have a good and happy life.

    My parents would have gained so much goodness had they apologized to us verbally for things they have done. My mother has apologized more with her actions, and that for me, has been enough. Our relationship is good and peaceful. We have a good time together. But there are frustrations as she still remains married to my father, and there is a lot of unhealthy negativity in her life because of it. I am prepared, as much as I can be, to care for my mother when she will need it. She might not have had the words to say that she is sorry, but she wont miss an important part of me and my sister’s life for nothing. I see how sorry she is by her actions towards us now. So there is much grace, love and forgiveness for her. Moreso, I feel burdneed for my mother because she continues to make bad choices. And I feel that she has paid a heavy price for choosing someone like my father who has controlled her, abused her, and has stolen her life and her joy. I pray earnestly that she finds it again one day. But there are still aspects of my heart and my life that I am not open to her because she cannot always see why boundaries are needed, and she cannot always see that there are much healthier ways of doing things. So in essence, there is more of me that she could have in many ways, but I can’t let down that boundary.

    My father, though, will never truly know the joy of having his children love him, care for him, and being invited to be part of our lives. It used to suck not having a father to love you. But after awhile, you get used to it. What I see more of a loss, is having kids who will never let you close to them and truly be a part of their lives. THere’s so much my father will never know about me and it is truly his lost. I was an awesome and obedient child. I was very softhearted and tender. Yelling at me was sufficinet enough to get me to change my behavior. I was extremely self-motivated, and very much self-governing and a perfectionist. I could have used a lot of tenderness instead of someone hitting me and assaulting me verbally.

    I am thankful that there are parents like you in this world who can humble themselves and apologize to their kids. It may make you feel low for the moment, but what you’ve done is entirely brave and life-giving.

    Bless you!

  38. ..and for those of you who mourn that your children have become non-believers or agnostic, I understand. My brother is agnositc in many ways. My sister has left the church altogether, but she still believes in God, but not in the very traditional ways. Myself, I still believe, but I dont really consider myself a Christian. I just believe there is a God and that He is love. But if there is a God of the Bible, and whatever his requirements are, I believe that he would be fair and just enough to show grace, love and mercy to those who have parted ways because of hurts, pain and abuses. No God worth worshipping would choose otherwise. If there is a God, then your children are safe and secure whether they believe or not.

  39. JeffT

    I just left a comment on your well written review at Amazon. See, we can talk here and then there!

  40. @ JeffT:

    “Perhaps only a smile is possible. A holding of the door. An offer of assistance. That cup of cold water. All mundane, but every single one an opportunity for kindness to break in on a life just as the rays of the sun break in on a morning.”
    *****

    Oh, my. Never underestimate these things.

    I watched a documentary “This Emotional Life”on PBS a few years ago and was struck by so many things (I ended up purchasing it, it was so good). In the 3rd episode they addressed the topic of happiness. They discussed research into the ripple effect of happiness, how it affects people in one’s circle up to 3 generations. Like, if your neighbor is happy about their new job (1st generation), their happiness affects you and you benefit from it (2nd generation). Your bolstered happiness then will affect another person (3rd generation).

    From memory, I believe the documentary discussed things even as mundane as the simple kindness of holding the door for a stranger, or a sincere greeting with a smile and eye contact, or certainly a hug. How even these little things foster happiness in the same way the nutritious food and exercise foster good health.

    And lest someone pooh pooh “happiness” as fake, superficial, artificial, worldly and carnal and an inferior substitute for spiritual “joy”… well, I think they’re really the same thing (& that’s a good example of being so spiritually-minded at the expense of being earthly good).

    Whether we call it “happiness” or “joy”, they each had a catalyst, whether it was being around a happy person, a happy circumstance of one’s own, a hug and a kiss from a loved one, the gift of a wildflower picked just for you, a meaningful sermon, a meaningful song or the written word, the brush of an angel’s wing, a drop of Holy Spirit, a pouring on of Holy Spirit.

    http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife/series/episodes/3

    http://drjohnschinnerer.articlealley.com/harvard-study-shows-happiness-has-a-ripple-effect-spills-over-to-others-714490.html

  41. @ tem:
    tem, I believe this is the song you are referring to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtwIT8JjddM

    The song is 10,000 Reasons (Bless the Lord) by Matt Redman. So it appears that this gentleman is not the same as the author of the book.

    On a slight tangent, this song was the theme song at my beloved neighbor R’s funeral a few months ago so it has a special place in my heart. During the time of R’s illness and hospitalization, we learned that God is indeed the God of the small stuff. He is in the little details that are pleasing to Him. My family and I maintained my neighbors’ home and yard, took care of their dogs, arranged for a friend to check up on his wife while she was in the waiting room, etc… After R’s death, we prepared his home for sale and maintained it until it was sold (to minimize the burden on R’s widow). When we helped R’s widow move out, my dad found a small stone that R had purchased for her and subsequently lost. Myy dad turned the stone into a piece of jewelry and had it delivered to R’s widow on Christmas day. All of these things are so tiny but they are pleasing to God. There are no grand gestures required of a person in Matthew 22:36-40, just love.

  42. tem wrote:

    (Is that the same Matt Redmond who wrote the book that I want to read?)

    I thought that at first too. It turns out the musician is Matt Redman. The book/blog author is Matt Redmond.

  43. I, too, was confused until I searched around but I didn’t catch the slight variation in spelling. 10,000 reasons is one of my favorite worship songs right now and I was thrilled for a moment to think that the gifted music maker was also a brilliant wordsmith. Of course, principled Christian that will not ignore the spiritual outcries of children is a given.

  44. 10,000 Reasons (bless the Lord)

    [Chorus]
    Bless the Lord, O my soul
    O my soul
    Worship His holy name
    Sing like never before
    O my soul
    I’ll worship Your holy name

    The sun comes up, it’s a new day dawning
    It’s time to sing Your song again
    Whatever may pass, and whatever lies before me
    Let me be singing when the evening comes

    [Chorus]
    Bless the Lord, O my soul
    O my soul
    Worship His holy name
    Sing like never before
    O my soul
    I’ll worship Your holy name

    You’re rich in love, and You’re slow to anger
    Your name is great, and Your heart is kind
    For all Your goodness I will keep on singing
    Ten thousand reasons for my heart to find

    [Chorus]
    Bless the Lord, O my soul
    O my soul
    Worship His holy name
    Sing like never before
    O my soul
    I’ll worship Your holy name

    And on that day when my strength is failing
    The end draws near and my time has come
    Still my soul will sing Your praise unending
    Ten thousand years and then forevermore

  45. That’s a good song, though I must admit that seeing the name “Matt Redman” gives me the willies, due to his involvement with many NAR-type groups. (His music was used a great deal at That Church, along with the music of others involved in various segments of the NAR movement.)

  46. Mandy, thanks for the clarifying about the Matt’s for me.

    You know without reading his book I would have to say that what your family did for your neighbor’s widow is just what he’s writing about: )

  47. @ elastigirl:

    “And lest someone pooh pooh ‘happiness’ as fake, superficial, artificial, worldly and carnal and an inferior substitute for spiritual ‘joy'”

    You mean like my ex-pastor who loved to say that Jesus didn’t come to make us “happy” and/or “comfortable”?

  48. Hi guys. With holidays and traveling I’ve been away from here for a while, plus I keep going through waves of paranoia that people I know will discover my comments on here so I’ve been avoiding commenting, though I read all the posts and comments.

    Can’t keep silent on this one though. Had to step away from the computer for a bit as I read due to tears… and rage. I too have deep regrets about the teachings on children that have been fed to me. I drank the poison, and I have wounds that stay raw inside me. I just typed and deleted part of my own experience – but seeing it in print I realized I am just not ready to share. Gail, you are not the only one. Don’t push yourself to share until you’re ready.

    All I can say is: To hell with parental perfectionism. I’m so over it.

  49. Looking for You

    May God continue your healing process. He, more than any of us, understands. Know that I am praying for you.

  50. Hester –

    Yes, well, Jesus said alot of things but HE didn’t say, “I didn’t come to make you happy and/or comfortble.” Jesus said some conflicting things for sure. The issue isn’t what Jesus says to us, but what your pastor conveys to someone. When he says “that” to a person who is experiencing difficulties, it is an easy write-off and please move along statement. It shows no care what so ever 🙁

  51. elastigirl wrote:

    And lest someone pooh pooh “happiness” as fake, superficial, artificial, worldly and carnal and an inferior substitute for spiritual “joy”…

    All too often, “spiritual joy” resembles the Joy Joy Joy of North Koreans dancing Joyfully before Comrade Dear Leader.

  52. I just read everyone’s comments & I wish there was a better way to say Thank-you than just Thank-You. Tears cloud my eyes. I am listening to your voices with a open and grateful heart. I am not use to commenting on a blog where people respond to one another the way it happens here, so give me grace to learn the rules of the road. Here is a weird question: Is it rude not to respond to each person who directed a response to my post? I am short on words, it takes me awhile to frame what I want to say, so I hope my lack of responding doesn’t come across as being indifferent, no far from it, my heart has been flooded with grace that I haven’t known in a long time. I am on my way to Amazon to order book. (Hope I wasn’t over the top way too GUSHY ( ;

  53. @ Gail:
    I am certainly not the expert on blog etiquette (so somebody fill me in if I’m wrong), but I think what you wrote is thanks enough. Goodness! Sometimes the comments on this blog come so fast and furious that I have a hard time catching up with them all. And, no, you’re not too gushy. 🙂

  54. Gail, I’ve posted on 3 different blogs now. I hope I’ve been appropriate, too. Sometimes, I don’t respond to someone who has commented on my post, thinking that they are just commenting for all, which is the way I post. And I don’t ever expect an answer, often don’t get one, but realize that it doesn’t mean anything necessarily. Sometimes, I’ve noticed no response, but see a few posts later, my comments being used or acting as a springboard. Also, that sometimes 2 or 3 different topics are going on at once, which I think is the norm.

    Same as Gail, though, if there are rules here, I want to know. Great blog site!

  55. Thank you for your prayers, Dee. I am very thankful for you and Deb and TWW. Sorry for such strong language in the last line of my comment (though I know you don’t get worked up about that kind of thing here). Just feeling so spiritually frazzled all the time. And nothing arouses my disgust with who I was in the reformed patriarchal system like the way I was taught to view my children. Ugh. 🙁

  56. @ Bridget:

    “The issue isn’t what Jesus says to us, but what your pastor conveys to someone. When he says ‘that’ to a person who is experiencing difficulties, it is an easy write-off and please move along statement. It shows no care what so ever”

    Yeah, he was pretty big into the “Jesus didn’t come to make us happy” thing. I can’t remember if he ever actually said “Jesus doesn’t care if you’re happy,” but I think he came close a few times. He took the tack of “joy is deeper and better than happiness” – which I suppose is true if you limit the definition of happiness to “fleeting feelings of enjoyment” (like you get from eating a cookie, watching a movie, etc.), but that’s hardly the only definition of happiness. Most of the broader definitions come pretty darn close to “joy” IMO.

  57. @Looking for You – go for it I reckon. Better out than in as they say.

    @Gail/RB – Dee has a great take on her Russian ancestors and the parallels with TWW blogging etiquette today. I think it’s also about putting yourself out there and having a go? We have some mixed views and takes on things, and you’ll find you’re drawn to the words of some commentors more than others. I feel uncomfortable publicly nominating some over others, but some people who comment on here are pure GOLD to me. Maybe HUG wants to comment as to whether he thinks we’re all a bit anarchist or not? (he’s up on his idealogy) Myself, I like how the threads weave all over the shop and stray ‘off-topic’, as I reckon that’s where the best conversation comes out. While there can be some snark, I think the overall ethos is one of graciousness, maturity and balance. Still working on that myself, and definitely ‘not there yet’. Work in progress. Myself, I don’t identify as the label ‘Christian’ anymore, but I really like Nick Bulbeck’s take on “The Nones” so maybe that’s where my fit lies.

    PS – see “TWW rules of the road” at the top of the page, under “The Basics”

  58. @ Julie Anne:

    Unsure if this will help with your research into patriarchy/homeschooling – but I found this on Doug Phillips’ Teach Them Diligently convention website today. All I can say is, good God. Keep in mind this is the CHILDREN’S program.

    http://teachthemdiligently.net/locations/spartanburg/childrens-program

    “Ten-HUT! The Teach Them Diligently Convention wants YOU to join in ‘The Battle for Truth.’ All junior soldiers between the ages 4 and 11 can enlist in the fight against the Christian’s three major enemies – the world, the flesh, and their commanding officer, the Devil. Uniformed in the Armor of God, we’ll study the Bible in age-specific squadrons and complete tactical exercises, all designed to help you be all that you can be in the army of the Lord.”

    THIS CLASS IS FOR 4-YEAR-OLDS. (Notice that the teacher is wearing camouflage in some of the pictures. Bad move, IMO, since a 15-year-old camouflage-obsessed Christian homeschooler in NM just gunned down his entire family a few days ago.) Brainwashing, anybody?

    At the risk of violating the rule about Hitler, I won’t spell out exactly what this reminds me of.

  59. @ Gail and @ RB
    The point is that you feel at home here, that you feel validated by what you say. Some may comment, some comments–no one comments. It is up to you.

    We are all feeling our way. We try to make room for other opinions, allow for rants–if required, 🙂 and seek to support those who need a special touch, especially when days and/or topics are hard.

  60. Oh, my former pastor made “that ” comment several times. I started off with joy and zeal to go around as a new Christian, and he even preached that everyone should have as much joy as I had. Then, bit by bit, my joy was stolen from me, and eventually the only thing I got was that I was a sinner and a heretic, and the only message coming from the pulpit was the “terrible sinner” message. I couldn’t bring myself to sing the songs, since he picked a handful of the most morbid songs to sing over and over. Luckily, I have optimism to spare. And I bet it looks fake to people, I seem like one of those “too happy” people. Although my pain runs deep, I cover it because I would sink into the dark abyss. Although I do hate that happy veneer, when people talk about how rosy their life is and what little minutia Christ is doing in their lives. When I talk about Christ, I have trouble explaining the profoundness of it.

  61. Thanks, Dee, Haitch and Barb! I do have topics that are closer to my heart than others, so could go on and on about those. I also KNOW that belief informs behavior, and really appreciate that being recognized here and at Spiritual Tyranny.

  62. @ Hester:

    Hester – thank you for that. I just noticed I *get* to follow them on Twitter – woohoo for that. Their militaristic facade reminds me of my former church which shall not be named. Back in the day when I was drinking the Kool-Aid, I actually bought my husband a Doug Phillips CD series. Oy – the things I could do with those CDs now. I hope I can find them. I’d like to be a photojournalist so y’all can see what I’d do with those CDs.

  63. Numo – I have a few that could meet that end as well. Hmmm . . . wonder what happens if you do 6-12 at a time 😉

  64. @ Julie Anne:

    We have a whole box of Vision Forum CDs that used to belong to our homeschool group. I can’t decide if I want to listen to them all and take them apart, or destroy them in creative ways. ; )

  65. Looking for You

    Thankfully, you saw through it all. Sometimes people go through a life and never realize the problems inherent in an abusive system. So, give yourself a pat on the back. And being angry is absolutely normal. You should be but direct it at the system and the men who perpetrated it. You were  trying to follow Jesus and do it right. These people took advantage of you. 

  66. Haitch

    I really like the “nones” category. It describes lots of people. It leaves the door open for faith as well. You are in good company. I would give anything to see a breakdown of exactly why people left the organized church.I am quite suspicious that it involves the topics we discuss here . I am very glad that you are here. Haitch. You add much to the discussion.

  67. @ Jeannette Altes:

    Jeanette, RHE’s post and the link to Beck’s essay is simply … well, add me to list of people who want to SING and HOLLER those points to the hills.

    Both RHE and Beck have succinctly put into words what I’ve been simply unable to write or verbalize myself.

    I’m going to quote from Beck here and Dee/Deb I hope that doesn’t get me into trouble but it’s the BIG ENCHILADA as far as where I am at in my faith right now:

    Simply this. When theology and doctrine become separated from emotion we end up with something dysfunctional and even monstrous. A theology or doctrinal system that has become decoupled from emotion is going to look emotionally stunted and even inhuman.

    @ Hester:

    Regarding any “educational materials” from Vision Forum I’d destroy ’em with all the glee and intensity of an old fundamentalist burning a Slayer CD in the church parking lot back in the day.

    Heck Hester, at the risk of scaring you I’ll jump on a plane tomorrow and come back to the US and join in the fun, it will be cathartic.

    In all seriousness, I purchased some reprinted 19th c. kids books (maybe McGuffy’s reader or something) from VF for family about 10 years ago or so and to this day it fills me with shame that a DIME of my money went to them. 🙁

  68. @ Rafiki:
    I, too, loved RHE’s article.
    “Simply this. When theology and doctrine become separated from emotion we end up with something dysfunctional and even monstrous. A theology or doctrinal system that has become decoupled from emotion is going to look emotionally stunted and even inhuman.”
    This just reminded me of what was always pointed out growing up as the shortest verse in the Bible.
    “Jesus wept.” John 11:35. It occurs after the death of Lazarus before Jesus brought him back to life. What better example do we need that our faith should not be devoid of emotion.

  69. Rafiki said~

    “Regarding any “educational materials” from Vision Forum I’d destroy ‘em with all the glee and intensity of an old fundamentalist burning a Slayer CD in the church parking lot back in the day.”

    Or, Hester, you could go all Dominion-mandate Victorious Gospelicious Manly-headship III on them….ya know, with a sword and all.

    Oh, you noticed I changed DM’s name a bit? Yes, I upgraded…in honor of Owen Strachan and Jared Wilson. Owen…for his use of the phrase–“manly headship” in a recent article over at the CBMW..and Jared, for his use of the sweet and cute word “gospelicious” in a tweet. It’s so Gospelicious!!!!!!!!

    “17 Jan jaredcwilson‏@jaredcwilson

    Skype with Dr. Bryan Chapell and organizers of a gospelicious event we’re doing in Washington State end of spring.”

  70. @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    BTDT, how often do the words “Jesus wept” come to me as such a comfort!

    I lost a very very precious friend (eyes welling up as I type) in Afghanistan last September and during the period of intense pain and uncontrollable wailing in the weeks (months, really) after his death, I would often remember that “Jesus wept” and it was of tremendous consolation.

    Diane wrote:

    Dominion-mandate Victorious Gospelicious Manly-headship III

    Diane – you are a total riot. 🙂 I much prefer your phrase to the originals (blech!) from Strachan and Wilson.

  71. @ Rafiki~

    I came up with his name several months ago, I don’t remember what we were discussing here. The original was, Dominion-mandate Victorious Manlyman the III.

    You can see, with such choice words as manly headship and gospelicious, why I couldn’t resist the upgrade.

  72. @ numo:

    HA! I’m sure I’d be too afraid to even try one in the micro. A hammer on the back patio would be my “safe” and “risk-free” way 🙂

  73. @ Bridget: Gotta be careful with that, too – the discs can splinter and those splinters can fly around and hit you. (Yes, I’ve actually done this… in my more fanatical days.)

    Best to wrap them in a towel or something before hammering. (only half-j/k! ;))

    At least with the microwave, you get a cool light show!

  74. @ Rafiki:
    My condolences to you, and to all who loved your friend. I hope, with time, the memories of times that you shared with your friend will soften the blow of their death.

  75. @ Rafiki: Rafiki, I’m so sorry for your loss… it’s *really* hard. (I found out two days ago that a dear friend of mine died, so I’m also finding comfort in knowing that Jesus cried.)

  76. Thanks BTDT and numo – really, really THANKS.

    I was and remain absolutely shattered by his death. No other word for it. I was absolutely literally out of it for the first week, replaced by a slightly lesser degree of numb. The intense grief comes out less frequently now but when it hits me, it hits me. And its only been 5 months.

    I lost a very close work colleague under similar circumstances about 5 years ago. It’s been difficult to process.

    Numo – am so sorry as well. As Jesus did, I think the first thing we are “allowed” to do is weep weep weep.

    I know that on a TWW thread we were discussing the Bailey book on looking at the Bible through Middle Eastern eyes. In some ways I am a bit envious of the ME tradition of very public mourning for a day or so following a death. And not just mourning but wailing, ululating, screaming, and tearing one’s hair/clothes in abject grief. All in public, understood and supported by the community. The grief just has to get out some way.

  77. @ Rafiki: Agreed on public grieving (and I can think of other cultures where it’s much more common as well)… We Anglos (or mostly German, in my case) are a very buttoned-down lot, on the whole.

    fwiw, I was more or less howling for a while on Wednesday. I knew my friend was going to die (terrible cancer diagnosis), but still…. Death brings a violent rending of relationships, and I HATE IT for that reason. And I do mean HATE, even though I know that it’s the way things are and that everyone and everything dies eventually.

    hugs to you,
    n.

  78. @ Rafiki: I feel like someone ripped out a part of my heart/soul. Literally heartbroken.

    And because this friendship was (primarily) conducted via the internet, I have nobody else to grieve with. (Service is very far from where I live; hotel price is beyond my reach at this point due to the location being in “high season” mode at present,” plus we’re getting socked in by a snowstorm, so getting to the airport would be hard – it’s quite a distance away.)

  79. Numo –

    So sorry about your friend 🙁 It is difficult to grieve these days. Praying for comfort for both you and Rafiki.

  80. @ Rafiki~

    I am sorry too for your loss. Hug! I pray that you will come across many people who will make it better…like a mother wiping away a tear.

    @ numo~

    “I don’t think our society does terribly well with grieving, either public or private.”

    Neither do professing Christians. When my father died in 2001, I will never forget what my very spiritual, highly esteemed in her church, mother-in-law said to me.

    I received no hugs, no tears, no card or flowers. She walked up to me and said, “We do not grieve as the world grieves” and then turned to walk away.

    Sometimes, I really do not know how my hubby turned out so sweet and loving.

    Anyway, I say to those who are grieving…here is a hug, and a tear from my heart, and compassion… because I have had loved ones die and I know it is hard. 🙁

  81. Again, I appreciate talking with you ladies about this.

    Numo – I wasn’t able to attend my friend’s funeral either. I was desperate to go and tried my best it ultimately didn’t work out.

    I know you will find a trusted person with whom to share your thoughts and memories of your friend, even if they didn’t know her personally.

  82. @ numo:
    My condolences to you, too. I’m glad Jesus’ tears bring comfort to you. I’m so sorry for your loss.

  83. @ Diane:
    “When my father died in 2001, I will never forget what my very spiritual, highly esteemed in her church, mother-in-law said to me.
    I received no hugs, no tears, no card or flowers. She walked up to me and said, “We do not grieve as the world grieves” and then turned to walk away.”

    Words fail me. And some wonder why people are leaving the church.

  84. @ Rafiki:

    “Heck Hester, at the risk of scaring you I’ll jump on a plane tomorrow and come back to the US and join in the fun, it will be cathartic.”

    Not scared…we feminazis gotta stick together. We’re both doubly done for anyway, in the eyes of Doug. I named my handle after an adulteress who defied the Puritans (albeit a mostly fictional bunch), and yours is named after a baboon shaman in (according to Doug) a pagan animistic Disney movie. We might as well celebrate, I guess.

  85. Diane wrote:

    Neither do professing Christians. When my father died in 2001, I will never forget what my very spiritual, highly esteemed in her church, mother-in-law said to me.

    I received no hugs, no tears, no card or flowers. She walked up to me and said, “We do not grieve as the world grieves” and then turned to walk away.

    Some churches will strip you of your very humanity.

    …People can be so cold
    They’ll hurt you, yes and desert you
    Well they’ll take your soul if you let them
    Ah, but don’t you let them… Carole King 1971

  86. @ Rafiki: I’m so sorry to hear about your not being able to get to that service.

    Re. your earlier comments, from having worked with a grief counselor in the past, what you are describing (your feelings and how they seem to cycle) seems very normal – and familiar – to me. I only wish that saying so could speed the process, or make it hurt less, but I don’t know of any way out except “through.”

    hugs,
    n.

  87. Muff wrote~

    “Some churches will strip you of your very humanity.”

    Clanging biblical and gospelicious cymbals…no love.

  88. anon1:
    I have said now for years that a pastor that has never had a real job has no business being a pastor. I have had pastors who never worked on Monday (because they had to work on Sunday). And would never work in the evening, because they were a 8/hr a day 5 day a week guy. (Meanwhile they were asking the people in the congregation, working 60 hour weeks (or more), and teaching the kids at church and having Bible Studies during the week to “do more”.) Then they assumed that they should get free medical care, free plumbing, etc. etc. as “professional courtesy”. Blech!

  89. Hester wrote:

    and yours is named after a baboon shaman in (according to Doug) a pagan animistic Disney movie.

    LOL.

    “Rafiki” means “friend” in Swahili.

    However, if the thought of baboon shamans get Doug’s undies in a twist, then bonus points for me! 🙂

    Again, many thanks to everyone for the kind thoughts. I cannot even begin to describe how the world is just a bit more dull and grey without the incredible, unbelievable spirit of my friend.

  90. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    @ Diane:
    “When my father died in 2001, I will never forget what my very spiritual, highly esteemed in her church, mother-in-law said to me.
    I received no hugs, no tears, no card or flowers. She walked up to me and said, “We do not grieve as the world grieves” and then turned to walk away.”
    Words fail me. And some wonder why people are leaving the church.

    Words fail me, too.

  91. numo wrote:

    @ Rafiki: I feel like someone ripped out a part of my heart/soul. Literally heartbroken.
    And because this friendship was (primarily) conducted via the internet, I have nobody else to grieve with. (Service is very far from where I live; hotel price is beyond my reach at this point due to the location being in “high season” mode at present,” plus we’re getting socked in by a snowstorm, so getting to the airport would be hard – it’s quite a distance away.)

    Numo, I’m so sorry for your loss. You mentioned Afghanistan. Was your friend military?

  92. @ Rafiki:

    “‘Rafiki; means “friend” in Swahili.”

    I guess I’d better don the “ignorant American” dunce cap… : ) Over here Rafiki is a cartoon character, though it doesn’t surprise me to learn that it’s an actual word in Swahili. If I’m not mistaken “Simba” is also.

  93. I just had to say that seeing all the compassion and support people have extended to one another here, within this post, is awesome. Truly, you have shown everyone who visits this post what the phrase, “no condemnation in Christ” is all about.

  94. @ Tina: Thank you.. but it’s Rafiki’s friend who died in Afghanistan. No worries, though – my head starts spinning at times, trying to keep track of everything/everyone in these looong comment threads.

  95. numo and raifiki

    I also HATE the cruel reality of death. The more we love, the more excruciating the pain of separation…. I am so very sorry for your loss.

  96. numo/raifiki – what everyone else said. I’m sorry for your loss and thinking of you both in your grief.

    I’m mindful of avoiding occult practices, but I totally understand why some are attracted to seances and folks who claim they can talk to those who have passed. The pain of loss is so intense that even the whisper or sliver of a chance of engaging with them again must seem worth trying. Unfortunately I don’t think that path leads to any answers. But I understand that deep need for them again, the wanting above everything else. I do hope for a place where we can all meet again after death, and as nobody knows what’s next, I’m not convinced otherwise. I can’t swallow nihilism. I hope I haven’t spoken out of turn here.

    When I was in deep grief the last thing I felt like was reading a book, but a friend lent me some CD’s by Mal McKissock (grief go-to-guy) which were useful as I’m usually a muddle along person. Unfortunately I would play them in the car, and it would trigger more grief which would make it difficult to drive at times, so maybe I’m giving you a bum steer there. I’ll shut up now.

  97. Diane

    I just love how you all came up with the word “gospelicious.” It makes me laugh every time. 

  98. @ Dee~

    You did read my prior comment about Jared’s tweet, right? I did not come up with the word. I found this darling word in a sweet tweet of Jared’s. 🙂

    (I did ask my hub what he thought of someone using the word-gospelicious. He looked at me and did not say a word.)

  99. Diane –

    The word sounds like something a “tween” girl would come up with as she was chattering away with a group of like-minded tweens. Or, a word that might be heard on a very bad 2 am infomercial. (eye-roll)

  100. @ Bridget

    Agree.

    But, I also think Dominion-Mandate Victorious Gospelicious Manly-Headship the III wears the word proudly.

  101. @ Diane:

    Agree! It’s great descriptor in this case. You should send it to John Piper. He may simply rejoice using it as one of his many adjectives.

  102. @ Haitch: Thanks so much, Haitch.

    Agreed on why some people seek out mediums, but that – apart from being an unwise thing spiritually – is such a cruel racket, imo.

    As for your beliefs, I think most here know that I do not believe in eternal conscious torment and am tending toward a specifically Christian universalist view. I know some think that’s heresy, but there are some well-reasoned and presented arguments in favor (especially those made by Robin Parry, in recent times) that are very much worth reading. I don’t think he – or others who think similarly to him – are meaning to try and “convert” anyone so much as they are trying to open a much-needed discussion.

  103. @ Bridget~

    As much as I think he would rejoice in the use of the word, I simply cannot, out of mercy for his hearers, be responsible for giving him one more adjective with which to embelish his already adjectiveilicious sermons.

  104. @ Diane: All I can ever think of is Beyoncé’s “bootylicious” when these stupid new variations of it come up.

    but then, maybe these guys are thinking about that, too?! 😉

  105. @ Haitch:

    Haitch, thanks. A couple of months ago I found myself flipping through the TV channels and I came upon TLC’s “Long Island Medium.”

    I got sucked in to the show right quick for obvious reasons, having just experienced a loss of a loved one. I quickly changed channels for the reasons Numo stated, but I do have a ton of compassion for the people who seek out this woman’s assistance. Heck, I found myself thinking that I’d do anything for one more conversation and that yearning was really powerful.

    Knowing full well what the Bible teaches on this, I think the L.I. lady is probably an incredibly sensitive individual who has a strong desire to help grieving people. But at the end of the day, I can’t agree with her methodology for faith reasons.

  106. Hmmm numo,

    Well…

    Jared C Wilson does tweet, with some measure of frequency, about various body parts (and/or the physical appearances) of those he deems worthy of his gospel deeps consideration….hmmm.

  107. Diane

    I am thinking about starting a blog caled Gospel “Not So Deep” and feature the musings of the “only we define the gospel” crowd.

  108. @ Diane: I was thinking the same thing.

    and I well remember the furor – either humor or outrage (or indifference!) – over Beyoncé’s use of “bootylicious” on Oprah. Not that I watched her show, but iirc, it was all over the intarwebs within seconds.

  109. @ dee:

    As in have a special blog section where the tweets of the “Dominion-Mandate Victorious Gospelicious Manly-Headship the III” -type can be posted 🙂

  110. “I am thinking about starting a blog caled Gospel “Not So Deep” and feature the musings of the “only we define the gospel” crowd.”

    Be sure to include, as a category, “Where’s The Love?”.

  111. @ Diane: Not just that – he stole a coinage (bootylicious) from *a woman*!!!

    I know I’m being somewhat juvenile in finding that amusing, but hey…

  112. "@ dee:

    As in have a special blog section where the tweets of the “Dominion-Mandate Victorious Gospelicious Manly-Headship the III” -type can be posted."

    Excellent Bridget!!

    Dee–we have the banner for your new blog…

    it is he…Dominion-Mandate Victorious Gospelicious Manly-Headship the III. !!!

  113. @ numo~

    “@ Diane: Not just that – he stole a coinage (bootylicious) from *a woman*!!!”

    I fear it is worse than that, numo. Timmy Brister liked it in 2010.

    “Jesus, help church planters in the same city be notorious for mutual encouragement and gospelicious cross pollinating.”

    http://timmybrister.com/2010/08/

  114. I’m pretty sure one of us used gospelicious before him….but how to check? Can any of us check all the comments we’ve made here? Don’t know how to search the site for gospelicious….

  115. Beakerj,

    Looks like you were the first to use it here at TWW on 9/11 last year (see below). 

    Congratulations!!!

    Leila…your name is Leila…sorry I was so carried away with the sheer gospeliciousness of what I was saying I forgot to pay attention to you, the human being.

  116. *is currently lapping the room in celebration*…I thought maybe I’d used gospeltastic!

    I did once inadvertently name an entire religious group – the Jesus Army, based in Northampton, UK. My friend’s Mum was part of their Somerset contingent, & while staying with her I called them the Jarmies (rhymes with barmy)…which just seemed obvious to me, they thought it was hilarious & started to use it. It may, of course, like Jared here, be an entirely separate & coincidental coining of the term.

  117. @ Beakerj: LOLZ at “jrmies.”

    I just finished a novel by Rebecca West, in which there’s a sect (London-based) called the Heavenly Hostages. There are some good jokes – though a bit bawdy – about the term “wrestled all night in prayer,” among other things.

    One interesting thing about it is that west – who would, i’d have thought, lampooned groups like the Hostages – has excellent, nuanced characterizations of a Hostages preacher and his now-atheist son. (I believe she thought that both of them were over-reaching, one on the side of his theology, the other in an effort to escape the more oppressive aspects of his upbringing, though it turns out that his OT prophet-like dad is actually a kind man and that his crusty exterior is largely a front.)

  118. This post has really stuck in my mind because it touches on another one of my strongly held convictions; so I’ve put together some thoughts about it.
    Here is some of the subtext when a celebrity preacher goes on and on about “doing great things for God” or “seizing your destiny” or being “purpose-driven” or even “gospel implications.”

    • I’m doing great things for God and you’re not.

    • Because I am doing great things for God you must serve me and do what I tell you to do.

    • Because I am doing great things for God I get to define terms the way I want to.

    • Because I’m doing great things for God I am above criticism.

    • Because I am doing great things for God I do not have time to talk to you if I have offended you. I have people who do that for me.

    • Because I’m doing great things for God I am free of the requirements of an “ordinary christian” or even an ordinary decent human being.

    • I can preach against things that I do myself because I am fighting for the gospel in a great culture war.

    • Since you are not doing great things for God the least you can do is to give me a lot of your money because I AM doing great things for God.

    • We know I am doing great things for God because a lot of people know my name and buy my books and attend my conferences. And I hang out with other guys who are doing great things for God.

    • If I fall into open and revolting sin such as adultery or embezzling church funds or abusing my children or molesting your children it is because of the enormous stress of doing great things for God.

    • I am doing great things for God so I am obviously one of his favorites.

    • One of my favorite CS Lewis quotes, from The Magician’s Nephew

    “Men like me, who possess hidden wisdom, are freed from common rules just as we are cut off from common pleasures. Ours, my boy, is a high and lonely destiny.”
    And here are some of my responses to this idea of “doing great things for God.” I’m talking first to myself, here:)

    • You may indeed find yourself doing great things for God if you are faithful in the little things.

    • Great deeds for God will probably not look at all like you expect them to look.

    • If you do great deeds for God lots of people will really, really not like you. Even if you do little deeds for God lots of people will really, really not like you.

    • The deeds you do for God will most often take the form of doing them for “the least of these” and they will NOT be in the form of “fixing people” for God.

    • If you end up doing great deeds for God it will put you in some very uncomfortable situations.

    • You probably won’t get the credit for most of the deeds, great or small, and that’s OK.

    • You will probably not know how most of your small or great deeds for God turn out until you meet Him.

    • You will not know which deeds were great or small until we meet Him and the actual greatness or smallness of deeds will have nothing to do with how they were perceived in this life.

    • Since when is publishing ghost-written books, being fawned over at expensive conferences in luxurious venues for giving recycled speeches, and cavalierly using other people’s money and then demanding more a sign of great, sacrificial, deeds for God?

    Another one of my favorite quotes, from A Christmas Carol
    “… any Christian spirit working kindly in its little sphere, whatever it may be, will find its mortal life too short for its vast means of usefulness.”

  119. numo wrote:

    @ Josh: I can’t tell if you’re serious or, maybe, making a joke?

    I apologize; I should have added something to convey that it was, in fact, a joke. These YRR made-up terms are a joke, too – a different sort of joke – so I thought some sarcasm was warranted. 🙂

  120. Rafiki wrote:

    I got sucked in to the show right quick for obvious reasons, having just experienced a loss of a loved one. I quickly changed channels for the reasons Numo stated, but I do have a ton of compassion for the people who seek out this woman’s assistance. Heck, I found myself thinking that I’d do anything for one more conversation and that yearning was really powerful.

    Spiritualism peaked in the USA after the bloodbath of the Civil War and in Britain after the bigger bloodbath of World War One. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle lost a son in WW1; afterwards you could claim you were channeling a message from his dead son and he’d believe anything you told him. His friend Harry Houdini had a lot of altercations with him about this.

    For a snapshot of 1920s British Spiritualism, find an anthology of Doyle’s that includes the novella “The Land of Mist”. Last of Doyle’s “Professor Challenger” series (which started with “The Lost World”), it is basically a novella-length infomercial for Spiritualism, which even has an “altar-call ending” where fierce skeptic Professor Challenger accepts Spiritualism.

  121. Hester wrote:

    …and yours is named after a baboon shaman in (according to Doug) a pagan animistic Disney movie.

    No, it’s named after a Baboon “wise man” character in a big-budget Disney knockoff of Osamu Tezuka’s Junguru Tatei/Kimba the White Lion.