What Do the SGM Lawsuit and Martin Luther King Jr Have in Common?

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.  Martin Luther King, JR. 

461px-Martin_Luther_King_Jr_with_medallion_NYWTS
Martin Luther King JR.
 

Today is Martin Luther King JR Day. Years ago, I tutored children in a low-income housing project. There I met a teen who, with tears in her eyes, told me she wanted to go to college. We became friends, and through the years, we worked together, studying for SATs, applying for jobs, etc. Today, she holds a degree in both criminal justice and social work and is involved in counseling those in the prison system.

We had lunch today and talked about the President's inauguration. We discussed Medgar Evers, the civil rights activist who was shot to death in 1963. His widow, just shy of 80 years old, gave the invocation at the inauguration of Barack Obama. I told my friend that, no matter our politics, I find it incredible that Mrs. Evers lived to see an African American man serve two terms as POTUS.  Who would have thought such a thing was possible during the pain of the 1960s?

So, I decided to do a bit of reading on the church and desegregation. I found an interesting article here in the Journal of Southern Religion, written by Curtis Freeman, a professor at Duke Divinity School, which dealt with WA Criswell and desegregation. As I read this, I saw a similarity in the response of church leaders to the pedophilia, particularly in the Sovereign Grace Ministries lawsuit.

 WA. Criswell, was the long time pastor of First Baptist Church Dallas, and one of the leaders of the conservative resurgence in the SBC.  This paper tracks his support of strict segregation in 1956 to a seeming turnabout  in the 1960s. I find it interesting to note that Billy Graham considered this his home church and spoke out against the racial views of Criswell.

The article says the following about Criswell's views in 1956.

Criswell segued into a heated attack on the forces of desegregation. He expressed astonishment at the cowardice of ministers “whose forebears [sic] and predecessors were martyrs and were burned at the stake” but who themselves refuse to speak up about “this thing of integration.” True ministers, he argued, must passionately resist government mandated desegregation because it is “a denial of all that we believe in.”

Don’t force me by law, by statute, by Supreme Court decision . . . to cross over in those intimate things where I don’t want to go. Let me build my life. Let me have my church. Let me have my school. Let me have my friends. Let me have my home. Let me have my family. And what you give to me, give to every man in America and keep it like our glorious forefathers made it—a land of the free and the home of the brave.

The article goes onto suggest that Criswell, in the 1960s, and in line to be nominated and elected the President of the SBC, was pushed to moderate his views on segregation. In other words, the powers that be in the SBC knew that widespread, national support for desegregation would make it difficult to elect a segregationist as their leader. So, outside pressure came to bear on the SBC and they saw the writing on the wall. Criswell caved, although there are some who did not believe he had truly changed his mind.

In the 1990s he made the following confession.

I never had a battle in my heart, I’ve never faced one in my life, and I never thought I’d have to go through it, as I have these last several years. Nobody in this earth knew that was going on in my soul, but I came to the firm conclusion that I had to change. And this man who needs me, whoever he is, is my brother, and my hand is outstretched.

Criswell suggested that although it took him a long time for his “changing” hand to be outstretched to the black brother, God’s “unchanging” hand has always been outstretched. Looking back at his previous statements on race, he exclaimed, “Never had I been so blind.”

So, what’s our point? As the American society rejected racism, pressure was brought to bear on the church. I fully expect to hear from some that the church led the way in desegregation. That may be partially true but it was not the conservative SBC which did so. The Catholic church made the earliest stand against segregation in 1956 at the same time that  Criswell was making the above statement decrying the government's role in desegregation.

Child sexual abuse has been in the forefront of the American mind in recent years, starting first with the Catholic church scandal and last year's Sandusky/Paterno Penn State controversy. The outcry dominated the news, prompting many states to reexamine their child abuse statutes. The Gospel Coalition, along with assorted friends, have written post after post stating that they are “against” child sexual abuse. (Like who isn't?)  But, their statements appear to be merely abstract. When it happens to one their own, silence reigns. Al Mohler, the great culture warrior, is strangely silent about this travesty in his midst. And, in his midst, SGM central sits and is coddled. We will write more about this later in the week.

Deb and I believe, with our whole hearts, that the battle facing the Christian faith today is not the American deficit, not creationism, not making sure women stay silent in the church but recognizing a specific, serious sin in our midst. This sin is the abuse of children and women in the church, and, in particular, child sexual abuse.

Just as we all should agree that it was evil to treat people differently because of the color of their skin, it is evil to overlook, and treat as nonexistent, the sin of child sex abuse in our midst.

In Criswell’s 1956 statement quoted above, he said

Don’t force me by law, by statute, by Supreme Court decision . . . to cross over in those intimate things where I don’t want to go. Let me have my church….

Here is what Sovereign Grace Ministries said about the initial lawsuit on November 14, 2012. 

SGM leaders provided biblical and spiritual direction to those who requested this guidance. This care was sought confidentially, as is a right under the First Amendment. We are saddened that lawyers are now, in essence, seeking to violate those rights by asking judges and juries, years after such pastoral assistance was sought, to dictate what sort of biblical counsel they think should have been provided. SGM believes that allowing courts to second guess pastoral guidance would represent a blow to the First Amendment, that would hinder, not help, families seeking spiritual direction among other resources in dealing with the trauma related to any sin including child sexual abuse.

Both of these statements appear to say that the government should butt out. Leave the church alone. Let them continue to wallow in the darkness of their sin. Don’t tell them what is illegal, immoral and just. After all, these men are the church and they, alone, and especially not the evil government, know what God wants.

Just as the leaders in the SBC once stood behind the sin of segregation, today’s leaders in SBC, along with other churches and groups, especially in The Gospel Coalition, stand quietly behind, and support, men who appear not follow the clear dictates of Scripture to protect our children.

Matthew 18:5-6: “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin,[a] it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

It is time for these men, and the women who support them, (complementarian women are allowed to have some say in the welfare of children, John Piper says so)  to stand up and say “enough is enough.” As TWW keeps the count, we are closing in on 2 ½ months of silence. No amount of esoteric articles on “we hate pedophilia” will cover up for the seeming “Silence of the Big Dogs.”

Here are two bloggers who have something to say about topics involved in the SGM lawsuit.

Wendy Alsup:

Wendy Alsup, writing for excellent blog, Practical Theology for Women, here has something to say when abuse allegations occur in ministries that are loved. We have added a permanent link to her blog on our blog roll.

 Multiple Witnesses Establish Credibility

If there is one allegation, listen carefully and weigh the evidence. But if there are many allegations, while you still need to listen and weigh, at some point, you need to face some truth from 2 Corinthians 12:21-13:1

"I fear that when I come again my God may humble me before you, and I may have to mourn over many of those who sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual immorality, and sensuality that they have practiced. This is the third time I am coming to you. Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses."

Multiple witnesses establish credibility. You have to face that fact. If multiple similar accounts are coming out, then stop and consider, because the probability of serious problems goes up quickly with each new accuser. It is simply unbiblical to write off multiple accusers.

Peer Pressure  Is Vital

I wrote this week on the most needed peer pressure in Christianity, and that peer pressure to endure in love is definitely needed in such situations. Victims certainly need it, and I'm seriously hoping I don't need to give here all the Biblical reasons God expects us to defend and love those abused by authorities they trusted in their lives.

Matt Redmond

Matt Redmond looks at the widespread silence on the SGM debacle on his blog, Echoes and Stars here. We have added a permanent link to his blog on our blog roll.

The guilt of those named in the lawsuit against SGM is not the whole matter here. One of the great concerns is the lack of acknowledgement and comment on the very existence of it.

A lot of folks have trusted SGM and its leaders with their souls. Worship leaders have used their music. SGM has been held up as an example of church health. Mahaney wrote the book on humility. And families devoured their materials on family and parenting. Asking questions makes sense.

But let’s be honest, something is horribly wrong within SGM and has been for a long time. No one waited this long to deem Jerry Sandusky, Joe Paterno and the rest of Penn State as guilty of similar crimes.

Not even the neo-Calvinists.

We close with the last two sad stories from the amended lawsuits. Please pray that silent Christian leaders will acknowledge the pain and suffering of the victims.

*Trigger Alert*
 

FACTS REGARDING ROBIN ROE

87.  Plaintiff Robin Roe’s adoptive father (“Parental Pedophile”) is a sexual deviant who sexually abused her older sister for three and one-half years. His criminal conduct was discovered by Robin Roe’s mother on or about November 2, 1987. Parental Pedophile was and remains a member of the Church.

88.  Defendants actions taken after discovering her adoptive father's pedophilia permanently harmed Robin Roe. Robin Roe’s mother reported Parental Pedophile’s sexual abuse of her 11-year old daughter to the Church leader Dave Mays, who in turn immediately reported the abuse to Defendant Ricucci, and later reported the abuse to Defendant Loftness.

89.  Defendants did not report the matter to the police or any other law enforcement authorities, as they were required to do. Instead, acting through Defendant Ricucci, the Church directed Robin Roe’s mother to let them “take care of everything.” Robin Roe’s mother wanted counseling for the victim and herself, but Defendant Ricucci told Robin Roe’s mother that they did not want her to go to a counselor because counselors had a duty to report abuse. Rather than assisting the victims, the Church retained a lawyer for the sexual predator.

90.  Defendant worked with him and intervened repeatedly on his behalf to try to lessen the consequences for his criminality. Defendants interposed themselves between law enforcement authorities and the family members, and falsely claimed that they were acting on the family’s behalf. Defendants even suggested to Robin Roe’s mother that she send Robin Roe’s sister, the victim, out of the house in order to “bring” the predator home as “head of the household.”

91.  Defendants took steps to prevent Robin Roe from alerting others in the church community about her stepfather’s sexual predation. After Robin Roe confided in one friend, another church member, about the Parental Pedophile’s abuse of her sister, Defendants acted to prevent Robin Roe from remaining within the church community.

92.  As a result of the Church’s conduct and misrepresentations, Robin Roe was not cared for by loving and responsible adults, but instead was incarcerated in a juvenile half-way house with criminal juveniles.

93.  Defendants obstructed the investigation and the pursuit of justice. Defendants interfered with interactions with the secular authorities. Defendants warned Robin Roe’s mother that her means of financial support would disappear if Parental Pedophile was convicted. Defendants intervened with the State in support of the Parental Pedophile, and otherwise supported his defense efforts contrary to the wishes of the victim and her mother.

94.  After Robin Roe’s mother refused to acquiesce in Defendants’ attempt to obstruct justice, Defendants dropped all pretense of support, and expelled the family from the Church. Defendants also effectively expelled the children from school by denying them the reduced tuition that the family had received for over ten years. Defendants told Robin Roe’s mother that the family’s financial destitution was self-induced because she was refusing to cooperate.

95.  The secular authorities prosecuted and incarcerated Parental Pedophile. During the incarceration, Defendants continuously intervened on his behalf, trying to reduce his sentence. When the Parental Pedophile was released from incarceration, Defendants continuously intervened with the secular authorities in supporting his effort to obtain custody of the children.

FACTS REGARDING KAREN KOE

58.  Karen Koe was sexually molested by a juvenile sexual predator when she was eight years old.

59.  Karen Koe did not tell her parents about her molestation until some years later.  At that point, her parents alerted Defendants and also alerted the police.

60.  Karen Koe’s parent learned that the juvenile sexual predator who had molested their daughter had been initially charged with raping a minor, and subsequently served time in juvenile detention.  Although this fact was known to Defendants, they permitted the juvenile sexual predator unfettered access to children.

61.  Defendants refused to cooperate with the prosecuting secular authorities, who successfully prosecuted and convicted the juvenile sexual predator on felony charges.  Defendant Gallo took steps to obstruct justice, including but not limited to making misrepresentations.

62.  Between August 1998 and March 1999, a church member repeatedly sexual assaulted and sexually molested Jane Doe. Jane Doe was three years old at the time of the sexual assaults and repeated sexual assaults. She was living in Woodbridge, Virginia.

63.  On or about March 15, 1999, the mother of the perpetrator told the Defendants in a non-confessional setting that that her son had been repeatedly sexually molesting Jane Doe. She told Defendants Ecelbarger, Phillips, Hinders, Gallo, and perhaps others that her son had admitted to these crimes.

64.  Upon learning of the crimes, the Defendants failed to report the crimes to the secular authorities. Instead, the Church engaged in a lengthy pattern of fraud and deception to try to prevent anyone from learning the full extent of the ongoing criminal activity.

65.  Defendants directed the parents of Jane Doe — church officials who ran a Home Group — to remain silent about the sexual assault and assault, and refrain from alerting other members of the church to the ongoing predation of their three-year old daughter.

66.  Defendants sought to persuade the parents of Jane Doe to refrain from reporting the crimes and involving social services.

67.  Defendants did nothing to prevent the perpetrator from babysitting at other church functions or otherwise having contact with other children.

68.  Defendants interfered with the administration of justice by repeatedly interviewing the perpetrator, and working with him and his mother to determine how best to prevent any prosecution and publicity regarding his criminal sexual deviance.

69.  Defendants misled secular authorities into believing that it was providing “accountability measures” to ensure that the perpetrator was not permitted access to his siblings or other children. In fact, the Defendants did not put any “accountability measures” in place, but instead permitted a known child molester to frequent the “children’s ministry” without any supervision, babysit children of members, and otherwise interact with children at church events, including a weekend retreat, without any supervision whatsoever.

70.  Defendants lied to the parents of Jane Doe, telling them that they would ensure that the parents were kept informed of all court dates. In fact, Defendants, working with the perpetrator and his mother, lied and misled the parents in order to prevent them from attending court appearances and filing a victim impact statement.

71.  Defendants lied to the public authorities, representing that they were speaking on behalf of the parents of Jane Doe, and falsely claiming that the parents did not wish to participate in the court proceedings regarding the sexual assault and sexual molestation of Jane Doe.

72.  Defendants made a series of misrepresentations to their church members to ensure that they did not learn that the perpetrator had been raping Jane Doe.

73.  Defendants did not take any steps whatsoever to protect other children from sexual predation by a known sexual predator.

Finally, for those of you who have not seen CJ Mahaney in an impromptu interview,  we offer this video from a few years ago.  We will be interested in your analysis.

Lydia's Corner: Deuteronomy 2:1-3:29  Luke 6:12-38 Psalm 67:1-7 Proverbs 11:27

Comments

What Do the SGM Lawsuit and Martin Luther King Jr Have in Common? — 297 Comments

  1. A new blog post today at the SGM website by Phil Sasser – Polity Process Update and Timeline.

    Under changes the Polity Committee is now advocating:

    “15. A change of name. How does Union of Sovereign Grace Churches sound? If you don’t like that, please send us your suggestions.”

    Well, gee, I wonder why in the world they would recommend changing the name? Hmm. And I’ll bet some of the witty folks here at TWW could come up with some great ideas for names.

  2. There is a statement in law and politics: It is not the original offense that is costly to one’s future, it is the attempt to cover it up.

    That is what is most important about this SGM debacle. More important than the teaching of spanking (bad enough), it is the attempt to cover up sexual abuse of children, and to keep the original crime hidden. For that crime, the cover up, every person involved in hiding that atrocity should lose any right to be on the church payroll and should be shamed. These churches have practiced shunning: Those who covered up should be persona non grata in the Christian community until they get on their knees before God, before the victims of abuse, before the families of the abused, and before their church, and confess their sins, both the sin of no protecting the child and family involved, but also the sin of valuing themselves and their position above their obligation to the least among those whom Jesus loves.

  3. Moniker

    I am beginning to see why there has not been explosive growth in Apex, NC. Union of SG Churches? Boy do they need help. 

  4. @ Moniker:

    How about Together to Abuse the Sheep and Their Offspring (TASTO).

    Union of Guys Helping Abusers (UGHA)

  5. Robin Roe – that poor sweet girl. What was done to her by these men is now being laid bare before the world, and they will reap what they have sown on this child. I pray that justice will be done here, and that “Ceej” and his band of evil buddies get run right out of the house of God. Clearly they are in this ministry for their own power.

    I’m almost shaking in fear for what’s about to fall on their heads. (almost)

  6. Ever notice how certain religious organizations resort to mentioning the First Amendment whenever someone calls them to task for their abusive treatment of a member?
    Sickening.

  7. dee wrote:

    Moniker

    I am beginning to see why there has not been explosive growth in Apex, NC. Union of SG Churches? Boy do they need help. 

    Hahaha! No kidding! Maybe Confederate of SG Churches would be better?

  8. No, Eagle, I noticed that same thing, and with his arms flailing every which way, as if to get rid of the interviewer, he gave the impression that the only reason he was on camera was for the photo op and name dropping. Oh yeah, also, to show everyone how humble he is.

  9. We had a lot to say about CJ Mahaney speaking at the SBC Pastors Conference held just prior to their annual meeting in Orlando. The video is from that conference.

    I am still flabbergasted that certain Southern Baptists are mesmerized by CJ.

    Case in point – Mahaney will be delivering the chapel message at SEBTS on January 31 and he will be speaking at the 20/20 conference for college students at Southeastern Feb 1-2. Shame on them!

  10. I hope that every defendant who deserves it, gets hard jail time. Maybe then, the RBDs will stop taking the “let them eat cake” attitude, which is exactly what I believe they really mean by turning a blind eye with their platitudes. I wonder how many churches, especially the evangelical churches which are wowed right now at how “gospel-centered” the neo-reformed movement SEEMS to be, are even aware of the lawsuit? Surely, they read the news? Hopefully, they think twice before recommending that folks go out and buy up every RBD book out there. I’ve even noticed reformed terminology creeping into our non-denom, yuck.

  11. Eagle wrote:

    Is it me….but when I watch that Mahaeney video I notice that he doesn’t look the interview in the eye not does he look that camera in the eye.
    One of my rules in life….I never trust someone who won’t look me in the eye. You can tell a lot about a person in their eyes. It gives a person life and if in a difficult conversation they are not looking at you or avoiding eye contact…that raises concern.
    Am I off my rocker?

    That was the first thing that stood out to me, too. It’s as if he knows he’s lying to say that he applies his teachings to his life.

  12. 1. Eagle is right – Mahaney doesn’t look at the reporter or the camera that much. Don’t know if it means anything, but it’s there.
    2. Does Mahaney drink a gallon of coffee every morning? Every time I watch him he looks like he’s going to explode or jump out of his skin.
    3. The reporter looked a little nervous a few times, like he was afraid Mahaney was going to take him out with his hands. : )
    4. What did that reporter say about the “Sabbath principle”? He said it and then he mentioned Saturday. Maybe I’m just hypersensitive to this after dealing with SDAs, but Christians are NOT called to rest on Saturday and it’s debatable whether we’re required to rest on Sunday too. The last thing we need to add to this mix is Seventh-Day Adventism.

  13. Re: that video clip…

    how a person can dress something of very little significance up in monumental importance with a million words supplemented by hand gestures needed to convey the profound depth of the thing of very little significance.

  14. RE: that video clip…

    how to overspiritualize the luxury of having the opportunity to rest by turning it into virtuous humility.

  15. Eagle I’m with you on the lack of eye contact. It was disrespectful.

    First off, CJ wasn’t singled out to be interviewed backstage after he spoke at the conference. If you go to the vimeo page the video came from, you see all the speakers being interviewed afterwards. So its not like the guy (Ben Mandrell) caught CJ unawares and cornered him. There was an expectation and an awareness, no doubt, that each speaker would participate in a short interview following their speech. Yet, CJ comes across, in my view, as being almost unwilling to be interviewed. He seems hestitant and reluctant. I get the feeling he didn’t like being touched. And in response to the first question, rather than sounding humble, it seemed to me like he was dismissing the guy interviewing him and minimizing him and his task of doing the interviews. Must he lower himself and submit himself to someone beneath him? Someone who is merely attending the conference but not one of its main speakers? The whole way Mahaney initially related to Mandrell seemed to me like he was establishing himself positionally in relationship to him, and that he acted arrogantly and not humbly when he questioned the wisdom of his choice. I think he should have been personally approachable and accommodating, which he was neither.

    As Mahaney answered the question he made very little eye contact with fellow Pastor Ben Mandrell, who is a Senior Pastor of a large Baptist church. Rather he minimized Mandrell off to the side and took centerstage in the camera’s view. He wasn’t conversational, he wasn’t even talking to Mandrell it appeared, but to a wider, greater audience of unknown faces who would be watching the interview. When he did acknowledge Mandrell, he referred to him as “Pal.”

    Ok I gotta tell you, anyone who knows CJ, knows his use of the word “Pal” is always in a derogatory sense. He also said he gets “annoyed by guys like you.” Know why CJ acted annoyed? It wasnt a joke. He gets annoyed because he doesn’t like to be on the receiving end of being asked a question, especially by someone he doesn’t view as his equal. It means he must place himself in a position of submission. And please don’t touch him and relate physically to him as though he is in any sense an inferior. And don’t make the mistake of not lauding him with all kinds of praise and launching straight into asking something of him. Does Ben Mandrell not understand he must approach CJ with deference, showing submission to him. And try not to be taller, either. (Mandrell is 6’5″) But it would appear CJ was able to fool him and hide his arrogance and his animosity behind his joksterisms. I really think CJ would have like to have punched “Pal” for daring to act so familiar with him, for touching him, and for standing so close.

    And then there was the bit about sleep. “Only God never slumbers nor sleep.” And so CJ is reminded that by resting he is not the Creator but rather the creature. So he humbles himself to sleep. Because its a reminder to him that he’s not God. So he lays down his pride and lays down to sleep.

    Wow. I wish someone would put CJ’s lights out and lay him flat so he would stop talking. Haha I’m so funny. Just joking. Pal.

  16. So, Robin was essentially incarcerated because she spoke up about the abuse from her stepfather? I had to read it three times to be sure I was understanding correctly.
    Robin, that was so wrong and backwards. It turns my blood cold to think of you sitting in juvie for daring to speak up. I pray that justice is finally served this time. And to your mom, I hope this lawsuit brings you the closure you so desperately sought.

  17. @ elastigirl:

    His use of many words to say something that could be said in one or two simple sentences reminds me of Piper. It is something that makes me not trust their teachings — written and spoken.

  18. One of my rules in life….I never trust someone who won’t look me in the eye. You can tell a lot about a person in their eyes. It gives a person life and if in a difficult conversation they are not looking at you or avoiding eye contact…that raises concern.

    Am I off my rocker?”

    I have a different perspective. I know too many total narcissist that can look you in the eye and tell a huge lie and make you believe it.

    I think that he thinks his demeanor comes off as humble.Watch him on the T4G promo vids. He does the same things in that venue. He plays the dumb Christian act as if, ‘look at me a nobody around these great men’! I think he was doing the same thing at the SBC 2009 Pastors Conf which is a big deal to be asked to preach there. It is sort of like the academy awards for some preachers. (I know, don’t ask me why)

    I think his act has been so perfected over years he does not even know he is doing it. The mantra at SGM and the topic of his mosst famous book has been his “humility”. So, in his own way, he is projecting that. We, of course, have the benefit of hindsight now. (Note how much he looks down. A posture of humility)

  19. ” A change of name. How does Union of Sovereign Grace Churches sound? If you don’t like that, please send us your suggestions.”

    So, did they reincorporate? What is the deal?

  20. It will take every ounce of self-control within his body for CJ to be seated in a courtroom and to subject himself to questions by a woman. I cannot image him looking her in the eye with any sense of respect. How will he hide his sneer? I don’t think its possible.

  21. Karen,
    I’m glad your parents alerted the authorities. But, it’s obvious from the following details that, had SGM been truly caring for the sheep, this should never have happened to you. Not only was it preventable, but the “shepherds” ensured that it would happen. I’m sorry your innocence was stolen from you. May you find peace and healing at the end of all of this.

  22. I first came across S G M when I read the ” Girl talk ” blog run by C J Mahaney’s wife and daughters. I knew from the tone of the blog that they had been influenced by the Shepherding movement. The extreme emphasis on authority , roles, obedience etc was evident. This mess will tarnish God’s church in the U S A. I live in Ireland where revelations re clerical abuse have undermined the Catholic church. I attend an independent.Christian church and we have to adhere to high standards re children, this society has been shaken. Once Pandora’s box is opened nothing remains the same. More & more cases will come to light. These cases can go on for years , they can be brutal for the victims as their experiences are minimised and undermined by opposing counsel. God bless and keep the victims as they prepare for what lies ahead. God please open the eyes of those who failed the victims and cause them to repent and to provide restitution .

  23. SGM = Still Grovelling to Mahaney?

    Great analogy with the segregationists. I read a book about the Civil Rights movement last year, because, as an Aussie, I didn’t know much about it. I was never so impressed with Billy Graham as when I learned about how actively he fought to desegregate his meetings — he really took a stand against the evangelical establishment and his own background on that one! (Interesting and irrelevant sidenote: I was at school during those years, and we would have lengthy classroom discussions about the evils of Apartheid in South Africa, but never mentioned what was going on in America at the same time. I remember asking my husband about it, and his experience was the same.

    A few initial thoughts on the video (which I steeled myself to watch)

    *** CJ’s body languade is completely at odds with what he’s saying — he came across like a bad actor trying to do the part without really understanding it

    *** What on earth do they teach about the Sabbath at SGM? Is it only for pastors? I suppose they’re too busy rolling around in their sinfulness to teach or realise that Jesus is our Sabbath in Whom we rest from works?

    *** For someone who had nothing to say on the subject, he sure found a lot of words!

    *** Are we impressed that he’s so humble that he even goes to bed at night? At that rate breathing is an act of true humility, because it’s acknowledging our creaturely dependence on oxygen!

    *** Why is oit that he comes across so creepy and insincere? I mean, compare him to Piper. I think that Piper is dead wrong about a lot of things, and dangerously wrong in what he teaches, but I have no doubt that, by his own lights, he is a genuinely passionate Christian. CJ? No, he makes me feel gut-sick. Actually, what I really think is something I don’t want to put into words on a public forum, but yeah, it’s bad

  24. anon 1, eyes downcast as if in humility, but it can also be a form of hiding, hiding in fear, as in, please don’t bring up this lawsuit, or hiding as in, I don’t want you to know the real intent of my mind or heart.

    Robin, I’m also very sorry for what you endured. It is absolutely unthinkable that you would have been sent to juvie, even temporarily, for having been molested, in your childhood! God bless and keep you, and may justice be served quickly.

  25. @ anon 1:
    No, they didn’t reincorporate. This was a letter from the Polity Committee to the SGM pastors to apprise them of changes in the polity proposal that the committee is suggesting be made, based on feedback they have received. The Board has not yet reviewed or approved the changes.

  26. By the way, CJ has a sleeping disorder. Even when he desires to sleep or needs to sleep he cannot. But he must and its a constant struggle. And although he may wish to be released from the need to sleep and go without sleep like God, he is continuously tortured by his inability to rest, which he didn’t mentioned. Instead he made it sound like he submits himself to sleep, like it’s something he wills himself to do. But that’s not true.

  27. Hi Mollycar, great comment. Sad but true. May God arise with healing in his wings over your country and ours, and in the lives of those abused by the church!

  28. Evie — There are different medications to try for that, homeopathic possibilities as well, if it is allowed by his religion. I suppose he would have a problem if a doctor wanted him to see a therapist first since therapists are a no go.

  29. It’s going to be interesting to those of us who know better, to watch and listen to exclamations of, “We had no idea, This is serious, indeed, etc., when the lawsuit gets so much attention that church leaders and authors finally have to address it. I wonder if Mandrell knew, when he was interviewing CJM. If so, he hid it well. All he had were smiles for CJ.

  30. Bridget wrote:

    I suppose he would have a problem if a doctor wanted him to see a therapist first since therapists are a no go.

    Interesting point Bridget. My guess is he’s made all the exceptions in his own case. Who knows, he may have even sought therapy but only in the sense he sought therapy from AoR. As long as he can control the outcome and the diagnosis, he’s fine with asking for “help.”

  31. Wow – this is not the confident-wavy-armed Mahaney of just a few years ago (whether addressing the faithful at CLC, or doing his little SGM videos with Josh Harris as the fawning interviewer), but a scared-spitless-wavy-armed Mahaney! This man is terrified – absolutely sure that at any second, this pastor-interviewer is going to have godly revelation that Mahaney is a fraud, and tell him so or even ask him about the lawsuit.

    I’m talking about just the first half of this interview – I couldn’t watch more than half of this – it was just too painful, given the hundreds of hours I listened to him, and how much I benefited from the real spiritual meat I was fed in those early years.

    I also agree with Evie (above) that CJ’s use of “Pal” is usually not meant to convey respect – though in this case it appears Mahaney is just too terrified – or too manic or too caffeinated – to remember Mandrell’s name.

    If CJ had said “Slick” instead of “Pal,” however, we would know for certain that Mandrell was scum in his eyes. “Slick” was the all-purpose moniker for anyone who didn’t agree with Mahaney on important issues of doctrine – or, as it turned out, didn’t agree with him on virtually any issue. I realized, after years of “sitting under” his teaching, that CJ truly expected you to agree – immediately or eventually – with him on EVERY issue he chose to discuss.

    Call it arrogance, competitiveness, whatever – he wanted to be right on every issue, and especially on every issue of Christian truth and doctrine. Whether he called it “sound doctrine” or “truth as biblically defined,” what he really meant was “the way I believe it to be.”

    The humility act so embarrassingly obvious in this Vimeo clip is a comparatively recent thing, however. For decades, CJ was unapologetic about speaking boldly on anything he wanted, expecting his listeners to yield to his forceful arguments, humor, hand-waving and tears. Based on the Detwiler documents, it seems to me that CJ developed the humility act from a humor-schtick to something that enabled him to Heisman-stiff-arm any fellow SGM leader bold enough to “speak into his life” by actually confronting him with evidence of his sinful behavior. Now, it appears to be on the verge of swallowing his entire public persona.

    The contrast between the bold, confrontative CJ and the humility-act CJ seen on the video clip reminds me of the brilliant stupid-lazy act perfected by the black movie star, Stephin Fetchit (who became a millionaire, in the days when a million was a million!). This excerpt from the 1948 movie, “Miracle in Harlem,” shows Fetchit’s skill at appearing to be a blithering idiot.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQl2GoEbPys

    Compare Fetchit’s stupid act with Mahaney’s humility act, and tell me if you don’t think you’re watching TWO talented actors. (The millionaire thing is interesting, as well.)

  32. Well, I have never been able to watch the man. I tried watching the clip and did make it about halfway through.

    I think that just about anyone else on this blog has had more experience in reading his material and seeing/hearing him speak than I do. But I can't help but give my true reaction (that I've had anytime I've seen him).

    He has an unfortunate resemblance to a certain character from the Lord of the Rings trilogy. I've never understood what anyone sees in CJ Mahaney. I just don't get it.

  33. Along with others, I also noticed CJ’s lack of eye contact, his Pipering hands, and what felt like feigned humility. I was also struck that he talked a lot about his relationship to “the passage” as he prepares his sermons, but not at all about his relationship to Jesus. I am concerned about the idolatry of the Bible in many segments of the contemporary church. It quickly devolves into belief systems, like the Calvinistas’, and we are told “if you don’t agree with my interpretation, then you don’t believe the Bible.”

  34. Re: video clip…

    Perhaps the height differential had something to do with it all. Perhaps he felt diminuitive and diminished.

    When I watched it, I wondered if by chance CJ was actually on the petite side. Kind of like how when someone in the media is always portrayed tall and broad, and then when you see them next to something the size of which you know, then you realize how small they really are.

  35. Evie wrote:

    It will take every ounce of self-control within his body for CJ to be seated in a courtroom and to subject himself to questions by a woman. I cannot image him looking her in the eye with any sense of respect. How will he hide his sneer? I don’t think its possible.

    Evie – Your analysis of the video was fantastic and this little snippet above had me reminiscing my court case. I sat maybe 18 inches away from my former pastor. (And it didn’t bother me in the least!)

    I’ve seen maybe a handful of videos of CJ and he is always animated with his hands, pretending not to draw attention to himself. I’m wondering how he will be able to sit still without the focus on him in the courtroom. That is the beauty of the courtroom – other people are in charge telling you to rise, telling you to be seated and then here comes the judge 🙂

  36. The Judge is a woman. The lead Plaintiff lawyer is a women. I mean, this is his worst nightmare.

  37. “. He has said that I am mean toward him. And in all honesty I don’t deny being difficult..however I am also asking these questions or being difficult for a reason. ”

    This is the Calvinista mantra. If you question, dissent, put uncomfortable facts out or do not go along, you are mean.

  38. Don Baker wrote:

    CJ’s use of “Pal” is usually not meant to convey respect – though in this case it appears Mahaney is just too terrified – or too manic or too caffeinated – to remember Mandrell’s name.
    If CJ had said “Slick” instead of “Pal,” however, we would know for certain that Mandrell was scum in his eyes. “Slick” was the all-purpose moniker for anyone who didn’t agree with Mahaney

    Yup , that’s right Don. “Pal” and “Slick.” Definitely not terms of endearment were they?

    Know what I think? I think CJ knew who Ben Mandrell was. I think he as well as the others speakers were I formed beforehand that Ben Mandrell & Jimmy Scroggins would be conducting the interviews, and that introductions of sorts had been made by way of an announcement or at the meet and greet. My guess is those two men were asked to play a high profile role at the conference. After all, both men are pretty high profile young guys in the SBC. Check them out. Do a Google search. These guys are not small change.

    So, it doesn’t surprise me that CJ would minimize Mandrell and refer to him as “Pal” and attempt to cut him down by saying “guys like you.” Guys like him? Mandrell, like I said, is no one insignificant. In fact, he’s kind of a big deal in bis own rights. Jimmy Scroggins, the other guy sharing the “equal” task of doing the interviews? He’s a big deal down in Palm Beach. Both are pretty classy guys if you ask me.

    But did you see CJ pay any respect to Mandrell, or to the decision of the conference committee for that matter to conduct the interviews? Remember, one of the charges leveled at Mahaney by Detwiler was that he was unentreatible. Do you get the sense of that in the video? Did he seem easily approachable, accommodating, and willing to serve the interests of the guy interviewing him? Keep in mind he just walked off the stage after talking about GOD. Did his disposition reflect the humility he claimed to embody? He seemed a little pissed off if you ask me.

    Mahaney struggles to be humble. He knows he should be and he’s not. He’s arrogant and difficult to relate to. He’s hard to approach and isn’t submissive. He doesn’t like to be challenged or questioned by anyone. In the same sense he knows he needs to sleep but can’t, he knows he should be humble but isn’t. So he hides it. He hides all his problems and he hides his pride – or at least he tries to. But you know what that’s called? Its called lying. And deception. And he’s intimidated by guys like Ben Mandrell and Jimmy Scroggins. He’s extremely competitive and envious of what he doesn’t have: authenticity & humility – he very things he has other people say that he has over and over and over again. But its not true. He’s not a humble guy, and he doesn’t belong in the cburch as a leader. Whether or not he’s an authentic anything, including a Christian, remains to be seen. But humility is certainly a true mark. Pride? Definitely not.

    And what are we witnessing? I submit we are witnessing a world-class case of pride. How much more is it going to take for this man to be humbled and brought down to size? Every single day people are talking about him. There are blogs devoted to the guy and his terrible ministry. The news has spread far and wide about the abuse, the coverups, the lawsuit. Brent Detwiler released 600+ pages of documents. HOW MUCH MORE WILL IT TAKE?

    Meanwhile SGM is preparing to vigorously defend themselves. Good. You do that CJ. Everyday that goes by and he persists in his pride, the more drawn out this is going to be. And we will be just as relentless. But there’s no hiding this time behind a new name change. The only option left is for him to flee the country and live off the money he’s got stashed away. But that would mean taking his whole family along with him again. Oh well, we know the Mahaneys know how to “vacation.” I’d say go ahead and take a long one.

  39. Julie Anne – thanks and I watched the courtroom video with you and O’Neal seated together not far from each other and I totally admired your cool, confident yet respectful demeanor. You were awesome, as well as in the interview afterwards. Seriously, you rocked!!!

  40. Evie noted about CJ, “By the way, CJ has a sleeping disorder. Even when he desires to sleep or needs to sleep he cannot.”

    Great googly-moogly! This sounds like a Greek tragedy: “Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad.”

    It’s just much too ironic – like Marlowe’s Doctor Faustus in the flesh. In Doctor Faustus, a major paradox of the story is that, once he’s sold his soul to the devil, Faustus makes several attempts to renege on his agreement, but in the end is unable – or not sufficiently willing – to do so. The paradox is whether he is a victim of predestination (actually predestined by God to be damned to hell), or a willing participant through (Arminian) self-will.

    This too-painfully parallels the discussion in Hebrews, in which the writer warns his longtime-faithful readers that it is still possible for them to turn their backs willfully on Christ, and thereby disqualify themselves from being able to call again on salvation. (Heb 6:4-12)

    But the passage in Hebrews 3-4, in which the original readers are reminded of their Hebrew ancestors, is even more painful to contemplate in its connection with CJ Mahaney. He cannot sleep – cannot get rest?? About which Israelites did God declare “they will never enter my rest”, but those who hardened their hearts to the voice of God, and were unable to enter his rest because of their UNBELIEF (their unwillingness to agree with God about reality)?

    We now know that Brent Detwiler tried for about a decade to get CJ Mahaney to sincerely admit and repent specific sins, including arrogance. We also know that a number of people tried over time to get CJ to admit error and repent. (Over at SGM Survivors, one lady posted her story of working for years via the Peacemakers method to get CJ to admit that he had wrongfully ejected her from CLC. When she finally, finally, confronted him in person, it took her husband reading to CJ from Revelation about the hellish fate of liars, for CJ to finally remember certain conversations that he had repeatedly claimed never occurred.)

    At SGM Survivors and Refuge, for several years many people begged and pleaded with CJ to repent and admit wrongdoing. We know that, despite some aborted and half-hearted statements, he has never accepted responsibility for anything wrong that occurred at SGM. He has broken fellowship, run from accountability. And now, the lawsuit.

    To learn, at this time, that CJ Mahaney is unable to SLEEP at night sounds too implausible to be true – like bad fiction.

    Rather than a physical issue, could it possibly, possibly, be that the strain of being CJ MAHANEY-THE-PERFECT-CHRISTIAN-LEADER-YET-THE-WORST-SINNER-HE-KNOWS is too much for his psyche?

    Is he being tormented by demons over a turn away from actual faith in Christ – no matter how much he invokes The Savior and The Cross?

    Or, is he unable to forget the lies he’s told, the careers he’s ruined, the lives he’s crushed through his teachings and professional actions – yet unable to obtain forgiveness from God, because he won’t ADMIT to having done anything wrong?

    Do all of these possibilities actually add up to the same end: that if one rejects/disobeys the voice of the Holy Spirit long enough and consistently enough, that “the Glory departs?” Has he been turned over to satan for the destruction of his flesh, with the painfully merciful goal of saving his spirit from eternal damnation? (1 Cor 5:5)

    Or, is it already too late for him to change? Faustus knew the truth of faith in Christ, and willingly gave up allegiance to Christ in order to gain earthly success and intellectual fulfillment. When times came that he appeared to doubt his decision, he was either unable or unwilling to turn his back – to repent – and re-embrace Christ.

    Is this what’s happened to CJ Mahaney? Is he unable to sleep at night because he has repeatedly rejected the voice of God, for years, calling upon him to truly humble himself and give up his desire for control of his life, and dominance over others? Is he unable to enter God’s rest – symbolized by physical rest – because he’s hardened his heart so seriously against the Lord, like the Israelites in the wilderness?

    I pray the lawsuit will be the severe mercy that turns him back to God. At this point, only full exposure and loss of control will convince CJ that he’s not in control, and that others’ viewpoints are correct.

  41. anon 1 wrote:

    The Judge is a woman. The lead Plaintiff lawyer is a women. I mean, this is his worst nightmare.

    I was wondering if the judge was a woman anon1! YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    *\ 🙂 /* <—cheering. Thanks for that news!

  42. Fascinating stuff Don. I can’t speculate about the cause of the sleeping disorder, and I’m aware that many people struggle with sleeping related pro lens, so I don’t want to suggest his sleep disorder is anything other than something genetic or wbatver. But what is interesting to note, in my opinion, is that if CJ’s sleeping disorder is something he inherited, that its a physical trait that’s been passed down rather than being some form of “punishment” then where does that leave him in terms of seeking help, based on all that he’s taught? Have you ever heard him talk it and admit openly its an issue? Where would that leave everything he’s told people with depression, or bi-polar disorder, or to those who have kids with some type of co dition that makes them difficult to manage? What about his advice to people who are struggling in a bad marriage, who mean well but do t have the magic it takes to make it work? Or to someone like himself that cant enter in to rest? Who try and try, bit it doesn’t come naturally?

    Are they all sinners? Is it sin? Is that why? Is that the source of the conflict or trouble?

    That’s what he’s told others. That’s always the SGM answer. It CJ has kept hidden his suffering. He won’t talk about his struggle. He denies the pain. And forgood reason it would seem! People would start sniffing around for sin. Asking questions. Suggesting solutions like: “Just look inside yourself. Its due to your sin.”

    Everyone else can have their struggles, their problems. But not the Mahaney’s Heck, you hardly knew that Carolyn needed a hip replacement, nothing was said about it. “Musta been some sin…tsk tsk tsk. Probably from not walking on the straight and narrow…” That’s how they thought! That’s what they applied to others. Those are the types of judgments against others they used. But as for themselves, they keep the truth hidden lest they wind up subjected to their own judgments. OH…WHOOPS!!

  43. Eagle wrote:

    So the only option for CJ is church planting in a country with a non-extradition treaty with the United States
    Everyone on this blog…all together now. Sovereign Grace of Phnom Penh!! (The capital of Cambodia)

    lolol right. Or isn’t there an SGM church located in location that’s a great place to take a vacation like the Bahamas? Like that was an accident!

  44. As a prelude to the video of Mr. Mahaney in this post, Dee stated: “Finally, for those of you who have not seen CJ Mahaney in an impromptu interview, we offer this video from a few years ago. We will be interested in your analysis.”

    For what it’s worth, here are some observations. It’s a very long comment, but there are some key things about recovery from spiritual abuse at the end, after the analysis. And I think those points could prove quite relevant – especially for survivors of systems like SGM.

    • In answer to the question about preachers needing a Sabbath, Mr. Mahaney went right into a three-point outline: recognize rest is not an option, [therefore] take time, and choose an activity.
    • He certainly seemed familiar with this material, as he was able to articulate it fairly easily.
    • He used alliterations several times, such as with the sermon preparation being tied to a “public effect of a private experience.”
    • He used parallel structures with repetition of key words, such as, “make a difference to your family and a different in your service to the church.”
    • He used repetition of points to “bookend” his three point sermon, showing its beginning and end.
    • He actually told very little about his own life related to Sabbath. He mostly seemed to use his own life to punctuate a presentation on practical theology instead of the reverse, where he could have mostly told about his life and then punctuated it with a reference to scriptures.

    I find these points particularly worth noting, because to me, they are all indicators of a linear, “modernist” mentality. There is a certain elegance to this form of thinking and rhetorical style in preaching. Mr. Mahaney uses the forms well and has a knack for a great turn a phrase. However, there are some down sides.

    • Modernists tend to be highly abstract. They are drawn to concepts far more than to concrete reality, and so can lose track of concrete personal stories and common sense when caught up in their passion for abstract thought.
    • They use specific kinds of mnemonic devices – alliteration, acronyms, parallel structure (like repetition of points) – that appeal to a more linear learning style, where those who appeal to a more non-linear style tend to use assonance (rhyme the vowel sounds), neo-logisms (made up words), and multi-layered structures (like repetition of relationships).
    • The three-point outline has a step-by-step logic flow of principles and points that TELL how to do it. A non-linear format would tend to have a storyline logic where the principles are embedded in the narrative rather than extracted out. (For instance, name a topic and give three different examples to SHOW what it looks like.)

    Why this holds any possible importance has as much to do with those listening to Mr. Mahaney as to his own learning styles.

    He could potentially capture the minds of people who process information like he does, because to them, he seems analytic, systematic, “logical.” His presentation “makes sense” to those with a predominantly chronological and linear-logical way of thinking. They like concepts. They like flowcharts. They like if/then logic. All of these are things that show up in Mr. Mahaney’s two-minute answer to the question about preachers and a Sabbath rest. All of them easily feed right into a love of rules and boundaries.

    But here’s the real kicker … Mr. Mahaney could potentially capture the attention of people who process information the *opposite* of how he does. In other words, they are not analytic, not systematic, not “logical” in the tradition way. They are often viewed as non-detailed (spacey), freeform (all over the place), random (make seemingly irrelevant comments). In essence, their system for making “logical” connections is in conflict with the approach promoted by the dominant modernist church culture. So, those who want to conform to the modernist culture (which North America has mostly been for much of its history) could be drawn to Mr. Mahaney precisely because he seems to have what they lack: clear thought, an ordered life, rules for practical Christian living.

    Either way, someone could be easily ensnared by logic like what Mr. Mahaney’s seems to be from the very ways he structures his speech … and from the myriad of testimonies, many people indeed were taken in. (This doesn’t mean all modernist thinkers are authoritarian and legalistic, but it is a potential weakness, just as being chaotic and antinomian/anarchic could be the potential weakness of non-modernist thinkers.)

    I think as the Spirit wakes people up from the numbed state they succumbed to in legalistic and authoritarian systems – which SGM gives every indication of being – they’ll be asking what made them susceptible to being taken in. I’d suggest that it likely was for the best of reasons on their part – a sincere desire to worship God, follow Jesus, and become like Him. But they got scooped up by unscrupulous people in “leadership” roles who knew how to work the system to get followers after themselves. Disciples who were sincere but sucked in have much hope for healing and a return to wholeness. Those who duped others will find a much harder road to humility and repentance.

  45. P.S. Hope something in that earlier analysis was helpful …

    But it does raise a realistic question: Can we actually tell that much from just a couple of minutes of an interview? I suspect we can at least see some key patterns, if we’re clued in to what to look for – such as a lot of technical stuff like epistemology (information processing styles), philosophical structures, and language rhetorical styles/discourse analysis.

    For a very long time, I’ve been paying attention to words and analyzing what’s underneath them. My college training was in linguistics and my special interest was in analysis of cross-cultural communication. I’ve also worked on creating tools for figuring a person’s or culture’s underlying paradigm for how they think, connect with others, and create cultures.

    Also, about a decade ago, when I was very active in church planter candidate assessments, my usual task was to evaluate each candidate as he/she gave a 15- to 20-minute presentation about their conversation experience, “call” to ministry, and hopes in terms of church planting. I listened carefully, compared it to what I understood of learning styles and thinking paradigms and cultures, and suggested what cultures someone might best fit in, and where they might experience the most culture shock and why. Those reports were added to the profiles obtained by other assessors who spent 3 to 4 hours with each candidate, asking questions about his/ activities that demonstrated a dozen or so qualities deemed necessary for the “successful” church planter. The reports I prepared generally seemed to fit with what other assessors identified during their in-depth interviews.

    These are the same kinds of tools I use in analyzing paradigms from written materials and cultural objects. So, I do think it’s possible to figure out a paradigm profile from this kind of analysis.

    P.P.S. I watched the video in full 2 times and watched the last half a total of 4 times. I can see both how people could be drawn into Mr. Mahaney’s persona, or how they could be totally creeped out by it.

  46. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Why this holds any possible importance has as much to do with those listening to Mr. Mahaney as to his own learning styles. He could potentially capture the minds of people who process information like he does, because to them, he seems analytic, systematic, “logical.” His presentation “makes sense” to those with a predominantly chronological and linear-logical way of thinking. They like concepts. They like flowcharts. They like if/then logic. All of these are things that show up in Mr. Mahaney’s two-minute answer to the question about preachers and a Sabbath rest. All of them easily feed right into a love of rules and boundaries. But here’s the real kicker … Mr. Mahaney could potentially capture the attention of people who process information the *opposite* of how he does. In other words, they are not analytic, not systematic, not “logical” in the tradition way. They are often viewed as non-detailed (spacey), freeform (all over the place), random (make seemingly irrelevant comments). In essence, their system for making “logical” connections is in conflict with the approach promoted by the dominant modernist church culture. So, those who want to conform to the modernist culture (which North America has mostly been for much of its history) could be drawn to Mr. Mahaney precisely because he seems to have what they lack: clear thought, an ordered life, rules for practical Christian living. Either way, someone could be easily ensnared by logic like what Mr. Mahaney’s seems to be from the very ways he structures his speech … and from the myriad of testimonies, many people indeed were taken in. (This doesn’t mean all modernist thinkers are authoritarian and legalistic, but it is a potential weakness, just as being chaotic and antinomian/anarchic could be the potential weakness of non-modernist thinkers.) I think as the Spirit wakes people up from the numbed state they succumbed to in legalistic and authoritarian systems – which SGM gives every indication of being – they’ll be asking what made them susceptible to being taken in. I’d suggest that it likely was for the best of reasons on their part – a sincere desire to worship God, follow Jesus, and become like Him. But they got scooped up by unscrupulous people in “leadership” roles who knew how to work the system to get followers after themselves. Disciples who were sincere but sucked in have much hope for healing and a return to wholeness. Those who duped others will find a much harder road to humility and repentance.

    This was so good! I can totally relate since I recognize myself as being a "non-linear" in the way you described it. And you didn't mention this, but CJ is in his element with men. Leadership is strictly male is in view. And my guess would be he either subscribes to this and uses it as a basis to dismiss women in a general sense, assuming as many do that women are illogical and have a difficult time being reasonable because of their "emotions," or he is aware of this in a general sense on his own and uses it in a major sense in the way he places women in an entirely different category as though they aren't equipped to adequately handle the types of issues and conversations men must engage in in order to "lead."

    Following my thought here a bit, I have never seen CJ do or say by way of communicating with his daughters. His wife would talk about how she would stay up talking to her girls, and even now they have their Girltalk blog. But CJ himself is never part of the conversation, and all they do is recommend his books or his sermons as though i'ts their job to promote his works. As for his son, the separate blog he has going with him centers on sports.

    Also, Carolyn's messages, teachings, sermons – whatever you want to call them – that she gave to the women were always well scripted. She seldom spoke without using her "teleprompter" if you will. She was pretty dry, rehearsed, controlled, and logical. Everything she said was very linear. It makes me wonder to the extent she was boxed in, or if she too believed she needed to follow that form in order to present a controlled message, and by that work to suppress the women and their "emotions" so they would remain "under the control of the men" and their leadership.

    There's no doubt a great deal of thought control went on within SGM and by CJ, and I think you've nailed something here. The thought control was mainly based in attempting to force everyone into his way (or method) of thinking, and within that he had deep prejudices and a bias against women and his assumption that their way of thinking was completely different and needed to be controlled by men. Just a few of the thoughts inspired by your comment which was so useful and adds a lot to this discussion!

  47. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Can we actually tell that much from just a couple of minutes of an interview? I suspect we can at least see some key patterns, if we’re clued in to what to look for

    Right, and without someone or being familiar with them you can see patterns of speech like you did, but it would be easy to miss what he isn’t saying through the things he is saying. Or what is saying through the things he isn’t saying. Or what he wants you to hear but isn’t what he means. Or what he means but isn’t saying. All part of the Mahaney “speech pattern” 😛

  48. anon 1 wrote:

    The Judge is a woman. The lead Plaintiff lawyer is a women. I mean, this is his worst nightmare.

    This just makes me laugh and laugh and laugh.

    Ceej, pal, you are going to have to finally face some ladies who are probably not submissive followers of Carolyn’s “Girl Talk.” I have a feeling that Ceej is not used to that (ya think?!) and will require hours of coaching and pre-trial prep from SGM legal counsel.

    How much do you want to bet that the Reformed Complementarian Industrial Complex (RCIC), on behalf of their old pal Ceej, will fire up their blogs (comments firmly turned off!) with musings about how “unbiblical” it is for female lawyers and judges to cross examine, question, or otherwise offer rulings over men?

    Nevermind that pesky OT judge Deborah, of course. LOL.

    As for the video from the SBC pastors conference?

    Can we all step back and agree that jazzed-up “backstage interviews” are annoying in the first place, period?

    I mean, I expect breathless fanboy softball interviews of celebrities on the red carpet at the Teen Choice Awards. Not at a pastors conference!

  49. Here’s a news story of a child sexually abused by a teacher 30 years ago in Charlotte, North Carolina. The child’s mother went to school administrators with her suspicions and she was told she had nothing to worry about. The former teacher was charged yesterday with taking indecent liberties with a child after the victim confronted her over the phone and she apologized for what had happened, not knowing that the police were listening in on the call. http://www.wcnc.com/news/crime/Former-CMS-teacher-facing-sex-charge–187823371.html

  50. Mollycar

    Thank you for your comment. It is interesting to hear from someone in Ireland who has seen this up close and personal with the Catholic church. I believe that this scandal is like the one in the Catholic church albeit on a much smaller level. I believe that attorney Susan Burke will be the Jeff Anderson who defended the abused in the Catholic church debacle. And we now know the tactics that will be used. BTW, the tactics failed the Catholic church, and they will fail here.

  51. Lynne T

    Maybe going to sleep for CJ is harder that we think. Imagine having to replay all of the lovely things you have done in the course of your day…I would have trouble sleeping as well.

  52. Evie

     I would have a sleeping disorder if I were him. Lying in bed at night, it's just God and you. Imagine having to review you activities with the Almighty, without all the hand gestures and the admiring sycophants surrounding you?

  53. Don

    I am absolutely amazed by the clip that you put in yoru comment. He did remind me of CJ. I like the millionaire thought, as well.

  54. Eagle

    You said it before and you said it here. I think what you say nails it. Where is the discernment of those who follow him? Deb and I saw CJ a few years ago and neither one of us got it. He spent a good part of the sermon discussing sports. He looked jumpy, waving his hands around and not in a way that was appropriate. He seemed jumpy and humilty is not a word that I would use to describe him. The pastor of that church is Phil Sasser and I cannot believe he thinks this is normal. 

    As for the drugs, who knows-he was only in high school.  Perhaps he went on a bad trip and has yet to return?

  55. Dana

    “He has an unfortunate resemblance to a certain character from the Lord of the Rings trilogy.” Thank you for starting my day with a laugh.

  56. Eagle and all others concerned about Mahaney’s lack of eye contact. I don’t know if your perception about him is right or not. But, what you don’t realize is that most people on the autism spectrum have difficulty with eye contact. You should read “Look Me in the Eye” by John Elder Robison for some insight into that. My grandson, who has asperger’s, always looks like he is looking over your shoulder. He is doing the best he can and has had therapy to help him with eye contact. I am not saying that is Mahaney’s problem. He may really be doing exactly what you say he is. But, a person is not necessarily being disrepectful when they don’t look you in the eye. In fact, you are being disrepecful of the austism community with your prejudices.

  57. Brad – I love the work that you do. That analysis was very insightful. It is very helpful in understanding abuse. In abuse, your mind becomes a garbled mess of emotions, thoughts, someone else’s ideas and rules. However, noticing patterns will be key for many to unlock the mystery to the chaos that has been going on in their minds.

  58. Through a glass darkly

    “Feigned humility.”  That nails it. The entire monologue seemed to focus around CHand is “obvious” humility. He is not humble, he fakes humble and everyone around him must sense it. But, he wrote the book on humble and the book guys like him so he must be humble and OK, right? This is the danger that Matt Redmond discussed in his post that I quoted. The silence, as well as the frank admiration, for CJ unfortunately shows the shallowness of their own faith.

  59. Julie Anne

     I wonder if he can talk without moving his hands. What will he do if the judge tells him to dial it back?

  60. Here is what I find interesting. Those who come from SGM or are around SGM folks see his behavior in the vid totally different from me who has really only viewed him in terms of T4G/SBC venues. He really plays up the humble, nobody act when around them. He plays the court jester in the T4G promo vids. I was thinking he was doing the same thing at SBC pastors conference interview with the educated and erudite guy who was interviewing him. Think of it, he was speaking to mostly men who have M.Divs and Ph.D’s. I can promise you that 99% who attend are seminary educated. Some might not be finished but that is pretty much expected for any SBC church nowadays. Now that might not matter to Reformed pastors in the crowd because he is Mohler’s guy but it sure mattered to CJ. And whether spoken or not, it mattered to some pastors in that audience who have paid a high price to be educated and have never been asked to speak at the pastors conference!

    I think CJ has a persona for different audiences. He is a self deprecating narcissist. His “humility” act actually plays into his doctrine because when viewed as successful (in all areas, big ministry, perfect family) then God favors him with ‘grace’ God has not favored others so that makes him special and godly. He never has to say this, it is implicit with the teaching. It brings cognitive dissonance because he is constantly talking humility, we hate God, etc, etc. But look at me, the depraved sinner who is so blessed with Grace.

    It is quite the balancing act. It has caught up with him. Now more and more are seeing through the pretense. The vid was in 2009, remember? Let us see him now on a stage in a non sgm bubble. It might get interesting. So far his non sgm coddlers have been silent. That has to worry him a bit.

  61. Eagle

    A couple fo thoughts. They have mentioned your friends pastor over on SGM Surivivors in the past day or two. It im important for you friend to realize his pastors was involved with the largest SGM church for years before strating his current church. So, there are two option. Either he didn’t know anything that was going on, which makes him stupid, really stupid. Or he did and he is trying to escape. If so, he is a man who allowed this to go on around him and that means he is a jerk. Can anyone give me a thrid alternative?

    I plan to come for a visit in your neck of the woods in the spring. I want to see the cherry blossoms on a Segway. Ask hism if he would like to meet a blogger. I would enjoy that.

  62. Rafiki wrote:

    Reformed Complementarian Industrial Complex (RCIC)

    Good one!

    Nevermind that pesky OT judge Deborah, of course

    lol right!

    Not at a pastors conference!

    Agreed! But I think these guys are after a calvinista fanboy base, where young men who interested in full-time ministry sit watching & listening & idolizing these guys in the same way NFL players are idolized and interviewed following a win. I’m sure CJ would like to feel that way after he steps off stage, like what he said made him part of the conquering team. Pity he views that team as consisting of his fellow “Leaders” who are in “control” of the Christians, instead of the fight involving all of us and the battle belonging to the Lord.

    That conference seemed like a big Bro-Fest with CJ one of the Top-Dogs (thank you very much for not touching me as I oblige you with an answer).

  63. “This is the danger that Matt Redmond discussed in his post that I quoted. The silence, as well as the frank admiration, for CJ unfortunately shows the shallowness of their own faith.

    Not only that but right on the heels of their lack of disernment concerning Driscoll. We are seeing a pattern of shallowness. The only explanation is they are like them both in some ways and admired it. But each one of the Reformed big dogs will do what they can to protect their own image.

  64. Evie

     A pastor involved in the hoopla surrounding the pedophile thing in a former church resigned and hightailed it to Scroggin’s West Palm Beach church. It proves the old axiom “There is no problem so big or complicated that you can’t run away from it.”

  65. Eagle

    Love it. All SGMers should read this comment by Eagle.

    My friend went through the roof. Just the other day I gave him a lot of crap over Mark Dever. So my SGM friend is going to talk about 9 Marks, church discipline and the local church. So I asked him…”So you’ve going to listen to the sermons of someone who didn’t even practice what they preach when Mahaney ran with his tail between his legs to Capital Hill Baptist? And you are going to seriously listen to Mark Dever and take his words and teachings knowing that it is conditional upon being in the inner circle?

  66. To all readers

    Please read Don Baker’s comment from 11:14 last night. It is excellent. Share it with any friends that you have in SGM. Evie first brought up CJ’s sleeping disorder and I had similar thoughts to Don’s but no where as well expressed. 

    Major applause!!! SGMers-listen up to Don!

  67. Wisdomchaser wrote:

    In fact, you are being disrepecful of the austism community with your prejudices.

    Hi wisdomchaser, that’s interesting to note about those with Autism. I hope your grandson is doing ok. I saw that Miss Montana has autism!

    But CJ does not, so in this case, his lack of eye contact is something more deliberate. Normally making eye contact with the person you are speaking with communicates respect. I know I meant no offense by my remark to you, your grandson, or anyone who has autism. I might add in the interviews I’ve seen of Miss Montana, I see her making a lot of eye contact when answering questions. So is that fair to say about everyone with autism?

  68. Lynne T

    He is trying to garner a backhand compliment which the interviewer supplied. Of course, he believes that CJ is one of the best, amazing pastors ever and the interviewer took this as one more example of his humility. Watch his face.

  69. Wsdomchaser

    “But, a person is not necessarily being disrepectful when they don’t look you in the eye. In fact, you are being disrepecful of the austism community with your prejudices.” I appreciate your comment. It is a good reminder to rememberthose who struggle with autism.

    However, CJ has never admitted to being anywhere on the autism specitrum For a well respected pastor who is not known to be autistic to not look someone in the eyes is disrespectful. It can be a sing of guilt. But, maybe you have hit the nail of the head. Perhaps CJ has an undiagnosed or well hid disorder.

     

  70. @ Wisdomchaser:
    I have people in my extended family with developmental problems. I understand what you are talking about with Aspergers. But, presumably, Mahaney does not have this disorder. What I’m trying to say is that I would never hold someone with Aspergers to the same standard as a normally functioning adult. And, even then, one never knows the trauma another adult has been through. I’m sorry if our observations seemed insensitive. Mahaney versus your grandson would be like comparing apples to oranges.

  71. BeenThere

    Perhaps Mahaney is like “Chance” in Being There-my all time top 5 movie. His idsability is aoverlooked by a world who would have him be seen as brilliant.

  72. Evie I didn’t know about Miss Wineman. I looked her up and found her actual diagnosis is PDD-NOS. This means she is very high functioning. Sometimes very high function people seem geeky, odd or quirky but otherwise may seem “normal”. Autism ranges from what I just described to Rainman, with all levels of ability in between. High functioning people may have regular eye contact or they can learn it. But I can assure you that learning it is like counting on your fingers when you should multiply. It is a lot of work.

    As for Mahaney, I don’t know enough about him to say one way or the other. If you google famous people with austism you will be amazed at some of the people who are definitely on the spectrum and those that may be on the spectrum. I’m not excusing Mahaney even if he were on the spectrum. My mother probably was and that doesn’t excuse her abusive behaviors. One thing I will say about people on the spectrum, they can be very rule bound and focus on their obsession even when it is destructive.

  73. Dee – I agree. Don’s post above was very good. With narcissists, they can’t admit failure. They have no conscience for themselves. They cannot discern where they have wronged anyone. They are the most difficult people to counsel. But maybe deep within his psyche, there is a battle going on affecting his sleep. This was so good, Don.

    Here’s the link to the comment: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/01/21/what-do-the-sgm-lawsuit-and-martin-luther-king-jr-have-in-common/#comment-78501

  74. Evil scientist Debra is in the house but this CJ with undiagnosed Aspbergers would make a good story line for a B movie. Here is the basic plot summary…

    A group of unethical researchers are using human test subjects (Think Walter Bishop in the 1970’s on Fringe) CJ is on the autism spectrum perhaps Aspbergers (or in his case, Assburger) but the mad scientists want to know if you can make someone brillint by telling them over and over throughout their lives. So ceejay is surrounded by nothing but praise, anyone disagreeing is villified and labeled as some type of sinner. Circumstances orchastrated sort of like The Truman Show. Ceejay does bad things but they are exempted and he continues laboring under the dilusion that he is special but in a Sheldon Cooper rather than Forrest Gump sort of way.

    The preliminary results? Do I need to spell it out?

  75. Hey wisdomchaser, so I hope it can be agreed that CJ’s lack of eye contact with people whim he’s talking to is die to something other than austism or any thing he might have associated on the austism spectrum.

    I might also add, for your information, that CJ himself has made a BIG DEAL about making eye contact. Children were practically required to make eye contact when speaking with him or the Pastorsor anyone for that matter. He is the one who has made eye contact an issue, especiallyregarding children. I’m sure there are many others here who can vouch for this. When CJ first encountered my two oldest children, he HONED in on their eyes. He was looking to see if they returned his eye contact. This is NO exaggeration.

    Now, within the subject of child abuse, I would say this emphasis within SGM and by CJ can be argued is part of the problem. Why should children be forced to show respect to all adults, especially ones that they ought not to trust or have a very weird strange creepy feeling about. My guess is pedophiles LOVE when a child looks themin the eyes with a ssense of repsect and trust.

    All that to say that its another layer in the hyprocrisy of CJ Mahaney, that HE would insist OTHERS make eye contact when speaking to him (ESPECIALLY children), but he would avoid doing so himself. Its not like he doesn’t know the meaning of eye contact!!! Oh yes he does! And he uses it to control and victimize people. This makes me angry just thinking about it!!!

  76. Eagle wrote:

    One of my rules in life….I never trust someone who won’t look me in the eye.

    Your observation is a good one; however, be careful with this as a general rule in life because there are some cultures where looking people in the eye is considered disrespectful.

  77. I just want to add the it was encouraged within CLC to SPANK children for not making eye contact. This is part of the whole problem of precious children being victimized by adults within SGM. They contributed to the whole atmosphere of making children victims. Of impressing upon them the need to submit to adults. Of suppressing their voices. Of covering it up instead of helping them!!!

  78. Evie wrote:

    CJ is in his element with men. Leadership is strictly male is in view. And my guess would be he either subscribes to this and uses it as a basis to dismiss women in a general sense, assuming as many do that women are illogical and have a difficult time being reasonable because of their “emotions,” or he is aware of this in a general sense on his own and uses it in a major sense in the way he places women in an entirely different category as though they aren’t equipped to adequately handle the types of issues and conversations men must engage in in order to “lead.”

    I can envision the argument going something like this:

    [[ The Fall deeply affected emotions … but not so much the intellect, really. [As witnessed by the fact that we think we can come up with the 100% perfect theology.]

    [[ Women are more emotional and therefore more influenced by the Fall.

    [[ Men are more “logical” and therefore less influenced by the Fall.

    [[ Therefore, men are better qualified to lead, being less subject to the effects of the Fall.

    Of course, there are all kinds of assumptions in something like that, but I’ve heard similar things from extreme complementarians.

    The other thing with this argumentation is that it minimizes the role of emotions, and of “gut instincts.” And how often have authoritarian leaders warned us against our feelings as untrustworthy, and turned us instead to Scriptures – – or should I say, to their interpretation of select Scriptures that “prove” their point?

    It’s insidious …

  79. Lynne T, I appreciated your thoughts here on CJ. What struck me was how manic his movements and spirit was. I’ve seen him preach and interact with my former pastors many times. Knowing certain things now, one, so much of the “humility” and “honor” for one another on stage is *just* a show!! It’s ridiculous how intentionally false it all is, having proof now that these men did not feel affectionately or respectfully towards one another at all.

    I’m convinced CJ has serious psychological issues… he displays a lot of similar characteristics of someone with bi-polar. There is definitely a sense of mania. I bet he’s like this at home – walking in states of euphoria (that he then attributes to being close to God or having insights and then those around him just validate this reality for him) and then states of extreme lows (which he then attributes to his understanding of being the worst sinner he’s ever known, doesn’t deserve grace, etc which he then later interprets as humility and heightened godliness for discovering how low of a person he really is) which is really just his own pride speaking at times like this, bc another characteristic of bi-polar or related psychological disorders is narcissism. He could be scared to death (extreme insecurity is another one without having a proper way of coping with this) that he does have something wrong biologically/psychologically with himself, hence the extreme “take no drugs/it’s all just sin” belief system that he is also has and pushes within SGM dogma. Secular psychology is so wrong in their eyes, no one would dare research or value something so “clearly unbiblical” but how convenient for members to not be able to recognize textbook signs of psychological disorders within their leader(s) this way!

    Brent’s docs definitely offer loads of insights into supporting this theory… CJ can never be wrong, always blame others, lie, deflect, deny, keen ability to manipulate… I’m VERY interested if people have ever observed that “he doesn’t seem or can’t empathize with others” – this is classic sociopath profile. He’s also very charismatic/charming, another classic characteristic of these disorders. I’m convinced he believes most of the stuff he’s preaching/saying/teaching/doing bc he’s said dogma so many times it becomes his own truth, so in his mind, he’s never lying or being false and is always the victim. Oh, being a victim of others is another classic characteristic trait.

    These kinds of people are sooo effective bc they are so good at being manipulative. I think it would be beneficial to (re)educate people on some of these classic textbook psychological profiles to understand who they are dealing with and how to effectively relate to them without getting caught in their destructive wake.

  80. I think maybe the not making eye contact thing was because it was on video. Anytime I ever talked to CJ, he looked me in the eyes. And anytime I ever observed him talking to someone else, he always gave them his full attention and looked them in the eyes. Maybe he was disconcerted, uncomfortable, and not quite sure where to look for that video. At any rate, he is acting pretty bizarre in that video.

  81. Evie wrote:

    Right, and without someone or being familiar with them you can see patterns of speech like you did, but it would be easy to miss what he isn’t saying through the things he is saying. Or what is saying through the things he isn’t saying. Or what he wants you to hear but isn’t what he means. Or what he means but isn’t saying. All part of the Mahaney “speech pattern”

    It is of some help to get outsider perspectives on SGM. But the insiders are way more likely to be able to do just what you’ve said, Evie – detect the overall context and what’s been left out and what’s been emphasized, and how other cues and clues are implanted into what is said and how it’s said to skew the meaning in ways that we outsiders would find harder to discern.

    It’s like “spiritual osteoporosis,” in a way … the bone structure can seem totally solid, but then something breaks and you find out that it was actually full of micro-gaps where all the substance leached out over time and made the bone turn brittle. OR, to select and spin a Scripture that seems relevant, “holding to a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.”

    The structure underlying the entire SGM system seems utterly riddled with spiritual osteoporosis, and looks like it just may crumble …

  82. Moniker, I don’t think its just a video thing with CJ. I would say he avoids making eye contact with anyone who he is involved in posturing, who he views on some level as a threat. He probably wasn’t threatened by you, know what I’m saying?

  83. Sorry Brad the militaristic comment was for your earlier comment. I wanted to use the quote/select text option but it gets tricky on my phone here…

    But yes, totally. I was there week after week day after day. I saw it all for more than 12 years. So I can definitely pick up on things someone may miss if you aren’t familiar with the man and the cult(ure) of SGM. Great comments. Gotta run…:-)

  84. ha, i didn’t read all the other comments before posting and see there was a thread about him being a narcissist. obviously, totally agree with him displaying these classic signs. Also, with regards to sleep issues he has… another common trait with someone who is bi-polar…

  85. @ Evie,
    I was never part of a SGM congregation, but in my former life as a homeschooler I came across a number of people who believed in spanking a child for not making eye contact, or for making eye contact with “the wrong look” in their eyes. (Disrespectful, rebellious, etc. that was completely subjective of course, and largely dependent on the parent’s mood at the time…)

  86. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Evie wrote:
    CJ is in his element with men. Leadership is strictly male is in view. And my guess would be he either subscribes to this and uses it as a basis to dismiss women in a general sense, assuming as many do that women are illogical and have a difficult time being reasonable because of their “emotions,” or he is aware of this in a general sense on his own and uses it in a major sense in the way he places women in an entirely different category as though they aren’t equipped to adequately handle the types of issues and conversations men must engage in in order to “lead.”
    I can envision the argument going something like this:
    [[ The Fall deeply affected emotions … but not so much the intellect, really. [As witnessed by the fact that we think we can come up with the 100% perfect theology.]
    [[ Women are more emotional and therefore more influenced by the Fall.
    [[ Men are more “logical” and therefore less influenced by the Fall.
    [[ Therefore, men are better qualified to lead, being less subject to the effects of the Fall.
    Of course, there are all kinds of assumptions in something like that, but I’ve heard similar things from extreme complementarians.
    The other thing with this argumentation is that it minimizes the role of emotions, and of “gut instincts.” And how often have authoritarian leaders warned us against our feelings as untrustworthy, and turned us instead to Scriptures – – or should I say, to their interpretation of select Scriptures that “prove” their point?
    It’s insidious …

    Oh, this really gets my hackles up. When my husband and I were facing a financial crisis, I was, naturally, emotional about the possible consequences. My minister called me “unstable.” Mind you, this man has no psychology education or degree. It was merely an issue of control.

  87. I, too, love the fact that Mahaney will be facing a woman judge and woman lawyer for the plaintiffs. When you've spent a lifetime dismissing women, it's going to prove difficult to engage them respectfully. This will be interesting to watch.

  88. Sodomite Grace Ministries?

    Spanking New Union Of Churches?

    Mahaney-Tomczak Church Of Humility And Whup-Ass?

  89. Evie wrote:

    I just want to add the it was encouraged within CLC to SPANK children for not making eye contact. This is part of the whole problem of precious children being victimized by adults within SGM. They contributed to the whole atmosphere of making children victims. Of impressing upon them the need to submit to adults. Of suppressing their voices. Of covering it up instead of helping them!!!

    Evie: Where did this come from? I was living in VA at the time and remember this teaching, too (but was not part of SGM – remember, this is a church culture issue that expanded far beyond SGM, not just SGM). Was it Ezzo? or Tripp? This teaching convinced us that our daughter who acted shy when meeting adults was not really shy, but being sinful, disrespectful and disobedient by not looking at an adult in the eye and shaking their hand when meeting for the first time. My daughter at the time would try to hide behind me.

  90. @ Julie Anne:
    I’m curious as well where this teaching came from. When our children turned two, they were expected to say “hi” to any adult in the church who greeted them. If they refused to do so, they were supposed to receive a spanking until they did say “hi.” Some children are naturally outgoing, and have no problem greeting people. Others are shy, and have difficulty interacting with people. Can you imagine how damaging it could be to spank a child with, say, Aspergers for not saying “hi?” It would be detrimental to even a shy child.

  91. I hope that the female judge AND the female lawyer are in FULL BLOWN PMS the day of the trial.

  92. justabeliever wrote:

    I hope that the female judge AND the female lawyer are in FULL BLOWN PMS the day of the trial.

    Ok, that is hilarious. Does anyone know how tall CJ is? I’m sure I’m taller than him. I’d love to meet him in person and pat his bald head. I better step away from the keyboard. Snark is evidently in full gear.

  93. Robin Roe, there are no words. I am angry when I read what happened to you, your sister and your mother. I wish I had some way to make things like that better. But I can only in my teeny tiny way speak about religion that put male authority and male headship before justice, mercy, wisdom, etc.

  94. Rafiki wrote:

    Nevermind that pesky OT judge Deborah, of course. LOL.

    Not only she. Jesus say that (Matt 12:42; Luk 11:31) that the queen of the south will judge the generation of the days of Jesus – with no idnkling given that she will judge only the women.

  95. Re: eye contact…

    How about the height differential in that interview? He looked very petite in comparison. Perhaps he felt diminished.

  96. @ freefromSGMx2yrs:

    It is frightening to think that this is possible and then to realize that CJ has surrounded himself in a vein of biblical counseling that does not believe that people can have real psychiatric problems. God have mercy!

  97. Julie Anne –
    The book my homeschooling friends referred to was the Ezzos’ “Growing Kids God’s Way.”
    I think the SGM people read Defendant Tomczak’s book, but there were not too many SGM folks in our homeschooling group.

  98. He is about 5’11 or 6′ but extremely thin. I have noticed in the videos that his shoulders and upper body are always stooped over quite a bit. This may make him appear smaller than his actual height.

  99. @ Through a glass darkly:

    Ezzo’s teachings were prolific in SGM. It fed into the leaders’ “control” beliefs. They may have even switched from the Tomzcak book to Ezzo’s book when Larry left PDI. They wanted to erase everything that had to do with Larry, with good reason maybe.

  100. And today, a story out of NY: Jewish Orthodox counselor receives a prison sentence of 103 years for sexual abuse of a child. Interesting parallels with the SGM lawsuit, in that the Orthodox community is also rigid and legalistic, and has an us-vs-them approach to the rest of the world. The Washington Post reports: “The teen and her family have been harassed and ostracized, reflecting long-held beliefs that any conflict must be dealt with from within.”

  101. Bridget – Ok, I was thinking Ezzo. Isn’t this crazy? If you look him up, Gary Ezzo had major control issues himself. He refused to have accountability over him (MacArthur dealt with him). Yet he put his parenting material out to the world as being an authority on the subject, causing people to actually harm their infants by their unreasonable one-size-fits-all infant feeding schedule. Was Ezzo any better than Tomczak? Or was it just just a different book cover of the same content?

    I’d be interested in knowing who promoted Ezzo and their character. It’s always interesting how this bandwagon mentality goes in church circles. If you weren’t parenting using GKGW, then you weren’t parenting the right way because God’s way is obviously the best way, right? This is the same word manipulation that TGC, SGM uses: gospel this, biblical that – to make their words appear as the ONLY way. Blech to this control tactic. I see it. I’m calling it out. These guys are all control freaks. It’s not about God, it’s about THEIR ways.

  102. I understand that the video is weird (I haven’t watched it and don’t plan to, for multiple reasons).

    I can also understand the reasons for speculating about CJ’s sleep disorder.

    But… there are multiple reasons for sleep disorders, and (as Jeff S noted) many others for not making (or holding) direct eye contact.

    Much as I dislike CJ and what he has done since taking over at SGM, I also think that it’s slightly underhanded to ascribe a sleep disorder to guilty conscience.

    I know I’m in the minority on this – and I am *not* trying to defend CJ. But I wonder if anyone would bat an eyelash if they heard that someone they like has a sleep disorder? Or has difficulty making and/or sustaining eye contact?

  103. Someone here on an earlier thread expressed frustration with Survivors re: not wanting the issues to have much to do with doctrine. While I have lots of respect and appreciation for Kris and most of the posters there, I share that frustration. I now have the distinct impression that real, not SGM quasi-reformed theology, is a beautiful thing to many of them. It hasn’t mattered that facts have continually appeared from various posters. I’m thankful for some things which came out of the Reformers/Reformation, but the things I’m grateful for, are the truths expressed regarding faith, the priesthood of believers, truths which were in the Bible and need no interpretation from man to get it right. There was a great deal of evil which the Reformers didn’t disagree with, and so didn’t attempt to change, and the fruits are obvious in the murders, exiles, anti-Semitism, etc. IMO, the hyper-authority, Replacement Theology, shunning, are all still present today in most reformed camps. If they opened just a couple of history books, they’d see the correlation. CJ is doing what Calvin did, it’s all about control. That’s why they shifted to reformed from PDI in the first place, I think.

  104. @ RB: Respectfully disagree there, as TAG/PDI were shepherding movement all the way – CJ just papered over the authoritarianism and control that were already in place with the “reformed” label.

    As for the Reformation itself, it’s so vast – and much good came from it. If anything, I think (and this is solely my opinion) that the bad things that have come from various parts of the Reformation are simply the same old abuses, restated in more or less “protestant” forms and with “Protestant” vocabulary and theology. I realize this is a *very* broad-brush statement – and that going into details would be a seemingly endless process – but nonetheless…

    Shepherding redux: check out the Ft. Lauderdale Five. They had an outsized influence on TAG/PDI, and one of them (Charles simpson) was a speaker at various events – including Celebration – in the early 00s.

    (fwiw, I’m not a former SGM person, but have been involved in what turned out to be shepherding cults, and also have friends in SGM … still. I do so hope they will finally wake up, smell the coffee, and leave, but they’ve all been there a *long* time.)

  105. freefromSGMx2yrs wrote:

    ha, i didn’t read all the other comments before posting and see there was a thread about him being a narcissist. obviously, totally agree with him displaying these classic signs. Also, with regards to sleep issues he has… another common trait with someone who is bi-polar…

    I think it’s important to point out the difference between sickness and evil. Lindsey Fitzharris (I’ve enjoyed her work at “The Chirurgeon’s Apprentice, A website dedicated to the horrors of pre-anaesthetic surgery” http://thechirurgeonsapprentice.com/) has said that evil is about choice and that sickness is about the absence of choice. I agree.

    I think this is a good article: http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/parade_071402.html

    An excerpt,

    Until we perceive the difference clearly, we will continue to give aid and comfort to our most pernicious enemies. We, as a society, decide whether something is sick or evil. Either decision confers an obligation upon us. Sickness should be treated. Evil must be fought.

    And look, this women in KENTUCKY was sentenced to prison for ignorning child abuse cases: http://www.wkyt.com/news/headlines/Former-social-worker-sentenced-to-five-years-in-prison-163540676.html

    A state official testified before Murphy was sentenced Tuesday, saying abuse in Kentucky continues because of Murphy’s actions.

  106. numo, perhaps I wasn’t being clear enough, because I agree with what you’re saying. I knew that SGM started out as part of the Shepherding movement, in fact, it still is, but the control Calvin envisioned with his tweak of Luther’s work,(which was a tweak of Catholic theology, which came from Greek interpretation of Scripture), was the perfect way for CJ to tighten the reigns over those “crazy charismatics”, who were thinking independently and questioning. I even heard that some PDI people were beginning to stray from wanting to remain perpetual disciples, though I could be wrong on that. He’s a narcissist, it was a beautiful way to get absolute control and adulation for a long time.

  107. @ RB: I have had contact off and on with people in both FFX and CL since the mid-80s, and if anything, the level of “Stepford Wife” behavior frightened me away from being a part of any PDI/SGM church.

    All of the friends I mentioned are, in their own ways, independent thinkers, but the thing is… I have not seen them question the system. (Maybe they have; it’s very hard for people who are part of cults to articulate those questions and misgivings, even to themselves – been there, done that.)

    As for the Reformation, again… I think it’s more complex than what you’re saying. However, I agree completely that CJ (and likely others) have taken ideas from Calvin and Calvin’s followers and made them fit their ideas about “Reformed” theology. (Which are a lot different than most *real* theology in churches that call themselves Reformed – those descended from Calvin, like the Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists. I was raised Lutheran and am a revert – while Luther had some HUGE flaws, Lutheran theology is *not* the same thing as Reformed theology.)

    anyway… with allegations re. Larry T., I think that a LOT that was wrong prior to CJ’s taking the reins will become public. Shepherding = cult, imo.

  108. @ RB: Also… I’m a woman, and could NEVER have chosen to live as so many SGM wives do.

    That’s one of the things that set off all kinds of alarms for me.

  109. Ezzo’s materials and LT’s are both hyperauthoritarian to the draconian extreme.

    A lot depends upon which age should be protected more.

    Ezzo doesn’t mind letting an infant cry from hunger, fear, or lonliness all in the name of parent being in control.

    LT seems more focused on preschoolers and joking about intentionally initiating a pain response calling it protoplasmic stimulation.

    Mahaney switch out the whirlwind for the wind but now Ezzo has had too many malnourished infants and his books were quietly disappeared. Now, Tripp’s book is the one to use (blech.)

  110. With all due respect, the hyper-authoritarian issues have gone way beyond the Shepherding Movement. You see it in Baptist churches, Acts 29, Mars Hill, Reformed churches, “elder ruled” churches (many independent), Calvary Chapel, and those are mainly stateside. Others can speak up from GB, Australia, Africa, etc. It is rampant everywhere. In my particular church the controls were tightened as the Reformed perspective increased. I have to ask myself if this many leaders are actuallly “control freaks,” or are they simply living out their doctrines? (In good conscience, since they are simply adhering to the interpretations of Scripture that they believe.) At what point do we look at the doctrines that are behind the actions which result in so much harm and confusion to fellow believers and nonbelievers?

  111. @ RB: Should add low-church Anglicanism to the “Reformed” crew.

    I know this has been discussed in comments here (with tons of good info. from folks in the UK), but the blog’s search function is for posts only. 🙁 However, this did come up back in December – around Christmas, I think – and if you read some of the comment threads from that time, you might find the discussions I’m referring to.

  112. @ Bridget: It’s true. But.. look at the timeline for shepherding and Calvary Chapel. they started up at roughly the same time (shepherding was around for a fair number of years before it was labeled as such).

    I also am of the belief that a lot of the current move toward authoritarianism in many churches is related to shepherding *as taught by people who were not part of the original shepherding movement.*

    The same awful ideas keep recurring… or, in Battlestar Galactica parlance, “All this has happened before, and will happen again.”

  113. @ Bridget: I was involved in primarily Catholic groups that were, in effect, shepherding cults, from the early 70s-through 1982-ish.

  114. Through a glass

    I had read on SGM Survivors that Ezzo’s book was pushed in SGM despite the American Academy of Pediatrics saying it was problematic. Perhpas it varied from church to church?

    Love the “Defendant Tomczak” approach. May I steal it from you?

  115. Bridget wrote:

    At what point do we look at the doctrines that are behind the actions which result in so much harm and confusion to fellow believers and nonbelievers?

    Thank you, Bridget. We cannot dismiss this important point if it is a common thread in abuse stories. It’s imperative to look at the patterns and connect the dots. People get very attached to their doctrines just like they get very attached to their pastors. It can be a form of idolatry or certain Phariseeism.

  116. “History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people.”
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

    This is the MLK quote that stands out to me most in regards to this whole SGM debacle. To think there are people still in the pews, willing to ignore what is being and has been done with their “tithes” and the power they give these leaders by their very presence and participation….

  117. Debra

    Protoplasmic stimulation? I swear these guys are nuts, totally nuts.

    Oh Ezzo hasn’t disappeared. His book was featured on the site of a local megapators. Your local blog geddesses also brought that up to him when we mentioned Mahaney. He says we “character assassinated” Ezzo as well.   We wear it with pride!

  118. Evie

    Too bad Murphy wasn’t a rigid complementarian, Neo-Cal. SBTS would have helped defend her.

  119. @ dee:

    Interesting. Would this Mega Pastor say the same thing about the church in California that booted him?

  120. Bridget wrote:

    With all due respect, the hyper-authoritarian issues have gone way beyond the Shepherding Movement. You see it in Baptist churches, Acts 29, Mars Hill, Reformed churches, “elder ruled” churches (many independent), Calvary Chapel, and those are mainly stateside. Others can speak up from GB, Australia, Africa, etc. It is rampant everywhere. In my particular church the controls were tightened as the Reformed perspective increased. I have to ask myself if this many leaders are actuallly “control freaks,” or are they simply living out their doctrines? (In good conscience, since they are simply adhering to the interpretations of Scripture that they believe.) At what point do we look at the doctrines that are behind the actions which result in so much harm and confusion to fellow believers and nonbelievers?

    This is part of what I was getting at with the analysis I did on the types of “logic” that appear in Mr. Mahaney’s response on preachers and Sabbath rest. I believe the problem goes even deeper than the doctrines, to the underlying information processing patterns to lead us to select or develop specific versions of doctrines that fit the paradigm we value. So, linear thinking processes that depend on black-or-white analysis, abstract/conceptual thinking, and systematic forms of categorizing are the most prone to lead to the kinds of legalistic, authoritarian systems like SGM. But that same overall thinking paradigm is also underneath Arminianism, not just Calvinism, so you can end up with legalism, perfectionism, and hierarchical authority structures there just as easily – – same “epistemology,” but just a different selection of doctrines when faced with an either/or choice.

    This doesn’t mean every linear thinking system is automatically legalistic. And it doesn’t mean other kinds of thinking patterns are free from spiritual abuse. For instance, there is a type of thinking pattern that spins out all sorts of options, and doesn’t want to be held down by any either/or choices or rules or morals. It can lead to spiritual abuse by chaos, where everything changes constantly, and that creates a different form of control. And sometimes those pastors are worse to deal with than the all-out legalists … not that I really want either kind, and I’ve experienced both.

    I think we’ll create safer places for God’s people when we recognize that a broader range of thinking styles is part of the God-created pattern of things, and we work intentionally to integrate them so no one of them dominates. Our theology would turn out more holistic, it could consider people over principles, but not overturn moral precepts to let people do whatever they want, it would include devotional reflection and mystery and paradox because not everything is neat and clean and black-or-white. Anyway, that’s the direction my recovery from spiritual abuse has taken me in my research and reflection the past 10 years …

    In case those thoughts spark interest in more detail, this tutorial on learning styles may be of help:

    http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/tutorial-11/

    The one following it applies the concept to transformation teamwork (tutorial #12).

  121. numo, glad you saw through the lockstepfordwives’ bs. Thanks for your and everyone’s response/s. Protoplasmic stimulation? Oh, Lord, come quickly!!!!!

  122. Where in the ______SamHill, did the Ezzo & co., teaching come from?

    Sounds like they studied under the marquis De Sade. I've even witnessed these ideas being played out with the way family members have been training and treating their little ones, and they've been being taught themselves to adopt these views and practices. Going to ask them if they've heard of Ezzo and Tripp. Breaks my heart.

  123. @Dee –

    You can steal “Defendant Tomczak”, but it won’t be from me, it will be from the legal documents. 😉

    @others who are filling me in on the various parenting books: Thanks – I had not connected the dots that Defendant Tomczak’s book would be off the approved list after the breakup. Duh.

    I never read any of the hyper-authoritarian books, mainly because I didn’t like what I had heard. People hitting babies with rods… crazy! Also, I don’t like anyone other than God telling me what “His way” is. I am willing to take a risk and be wrong about my interpretation, since we do all see “through a glass darkly”.

  124. Mahaney’s Always Alliterative Answers in the creepy video, combined with the Polity People suggesting a new name amidst many policy improvements, inspires me to attempt some comedic relief in the midst of this tragedy.
    Headline: 1-14-12 Costa Concordia Crew Considering Course Corrections
    Coast Guard: Mahaney, where on earth are you?!?!
    CJ: In a Louisboat.
    CG: Why aren’t you on the ship?! You’re the captain!
    CJ: I always wanted to Captain a Classic Comfortable Canoe.
    GG: I don’t believe you!
    CJ: I fell in by accident?
    CG: No way!
    CJ: OK –OK– The smartest man I know (Look- there goes Al now–shouldn’t you be talking to him? Ask me about the America’s Cup) Anyway, Al (did I mention he’s smart?) runs the Louisboat. I wanted to be safe in case anything bad happens!
    CG: Something bad ALREADY happened! Get back on board!
    CJ: But there’ll be bodies!
    Crew: What’s everyone think of “Titanic”? Has a nice ring to it.

  125. @ numo:

    I just lost a really long comment to you 🙁 The short version is that I have been in the shepherding turned reformed vortex in two different “family of churches” for over 30 years. I have seen some light in the tunnel over the past 18 months.

  126. Should have clarified, the family members practicing this junk have never set foot in a SGM facility. It is coming from a modern-minded, pragmatic, holiness church, but I’m hearing and reading the exact phrases and recommendations here, so I’m (maybe naively) assuming the same source.

  127. On the issue of reformed doctrine/systematic theology in American evangelicalism, or what is referred to as “neo-Calvinism,” “neo-Puritanism,” or “Calvinista” and SGM:

    Whoo boy, this is hard for me to write. I’ve been in the reformed world for almost 15 years (and have pulled back significantly in the last 3 years).

    I’ve got the TULIP t-shirt and the New Geneva and ESV bibles to prove it, in addition to bookshelves full of Calvin, Packer, Sproul, Piper, MacArthur, Tozer, Pink, Edwards, Bunyan, Owens, Spurgeon (shout out to the Baptists!), Lloyd-Jones, Frame, Poythress, Kuyper, to name but a few.

    I’ve been blessed by much rich teaching on grace and sonship, no doubt.

    But the pride, the pointy-headed intellectualism, the harsh judgement of the non-elect (those who do not adhere to doctrinal purity), the endless parsing of secondary issues, the authoritarianism … it’s RAMPANT.

    Direct outcomes of taking this doctrine to it’s logical conclusions by new Christians without a solid foundation (me!) include (but are not limited to):

    “sin sniffing”, terror over one’s election, terror over an Angry God (TM) manifested through intense study and pondering of His wrath, IKDG madness, pride, pride, pride, complementarianism, mistrust in wicked civil authorities, and more pride in teachers who are reformed because they are really feeding us “red meat” via intellectually vigourous study (unlike those poor unserioius rubes dancing to the praise band swallowing pablum from the pulpit of the seeker-sensitive megachurch). Did I mention pride?

    If you suffer from any level of self-loathing, you will find a terrific place to grow it as you steep yourself in this doctrine. Woe to you if you develop any mental health issues, however! Surely this means you were never one of the elect, and seeking therapy only proves it!

    @ Julie Anne:

    For me, at least, connecting the dots sadly SADLY comes all too easy. 🙁

    SGM has charismatic roots but it’s not too hard for me to believe that a nice dose of reformed doctrine served as the yeast to further grow this … horrible mess.

  128. Numo –

    This is my current thinking about the many veins of theology running rampant in the world.

    I am reading “Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes.” This book is so refreshing and a treasure trove of unexpected insights into the culture in which Jesus (and Christianity) was born. It has been such a blessing to read a book that interprets the Scriptures without the Western filters (that began around the second century) from all the men that most Protestants view as the hero’s of our faith. I do think it is worth considering that Christianity did not begin with the Church Fathers. Many (most?) of them even greatly disdained the Jews and the Jewish culture. This caused most of them to ignore the culture in which Jesus was born. I believe that many teachings in Christianity, as we see them today, have been deeply troubled (even warped) by the lack of understanding Jesus from the perspective of the culture into which he was born.

  129. Numo, re CJ’s lack of eye contact: in years past, he had a laser-like gaze that he could lock-on while talking with you. He had no fear of making eye contact with me, I remember.

    I believe CJ couldn’t look this fellow Mandrell in the eyes due to fear and guilt, exacerbated by his knowing that Mandrell is a colleague, not a minion.

    This CJ is quite different from the one of decades past, though no less dangerous when functioning in his SGM-leader role. I think he’s really scrambling – to recall his famous sermon video – to keep a growing number of plates spinning.

  130. Some of Ezzo’s parenting materials are called Preparation for Parenting. If memory serves, I think they had two different versions, one “Christian” and one secular. This might have been the secular one. But it’s important to note it’s the same junk.

  131. @ Bridget: I spent almost 30 years in the same kind of vortex – charismatic/evangelical shepherding and/or variations on it that claimed to be free of it – though *not* ones where anything from Reformed theology played a big part. At least, not until the very end, within the last 2-3 years before I was booted from That Church (aka Christ Our shepherd – what a name!!! – in D.C.).

    So I can understand why you’d feel as you do about anything “Reformed,” though I think what Brad said just above is *very* true. There’s been a cut-and-paste approach (in general) to a lot of theology among charismatic/evangelical groups, as well as in places like SGM, That Church, Capital Hill Baptist Church (in D.C.; it’s Mark Dever’s church)etc.

    It can be awfully hard to see the forest for the trees!

  132. @ brad/futuristguy: Great comment and insights, Brad!

    I’m very much of the opinion that pretty much *any* system of thought can be used to create an abusive, authoritarian way of thinking and control. We can see it throughout history, after all – by which I mean the history of the world, not just church history.

    When I 1st read about MD’s church having video screens in “satellite campuses” so that everyone could watch MD, well… Stalin immediately came to mind. (For those who are unfamiliar with the phrase “cult of personality,” Google it and see what comes up…)

  133. @ Don Baker: I hear you, and I’ve seen comments elsewhere that pretty much said the same thing.

    What I was referring to, though, was Jeff S’s comment above re. looking someone in the eye being considered very impolite (and more) in some cultures; also to the comment above re. people on the autism spectrum.

  134. @ Bridget: I bought the book over the Christmas holidays and have read most of it.

    My feelings about it are very mixed… for one, I think the title is quite misleading. The book is not so much “through Middle Eastern eyes” as it is from the perspective of a Westerner who lived in the ME for many years. There is a big difference!

    I do like what he says about the parable of the prodigal son, though. 🙂

  135. Bridget wrote:

    At what point do we look at the doctrines that are behind the actions which result in so much harm and confusion to fellow believers and nonbelievers?

    I think we should definitely be evaluating doctrines to see if they are responsible for causing harm.

    Reformed theology is a whole system of understanding the scripture, and surely any responsible theologian would agree there are probably areas it is either wrong or could be improved. Systematic theology is not the scripture, though it is very helpful in getting a full view on what scripture says (if you subscribe to the reasoning behind the system).

    The kinds of things that have gone on with SGM, in my opinion, are not inherent to the system of theology called “Reformed”. My experience with Reformed churches has been precisely the opposite. It was the non-reformed churches that harmed me the most. I know that people disagree on this point, but I will say that I am fully on board with questioning theology and trying to determine if it is causing problems. I actually do test all of my views to see if they naturally lead to abuse and cover ups because this is a very important topic to me.

    I think the problem is narcissists gaining platforms and using their congregations for their narcissistic supply, and this is an opportunity afforded by many different religious views/systems, not just Reformed theology.

  136. @ Jeff S: Agreed, Jeff – though I’m not Reformed and likely never will be!

    Like you, I experienced great abuses in churches that did not subscribe to Reformed theology *at all.* But they did have a very authoritarian structure, so…

  137. @ Wisdomchaser:

    People who have Social Anxiety Disorder also rarely make eye contact, or if they do, it’s extremely hard for them.

    It has always bothered me when people automatically assume that someone who is painfully, pathologically shy (or who has some other issue) who can’t or won’t make eye contact, or smile, or make chit chat, is unfriendly, rude, or egotistical.

    I once saw a guy write to an advice columnist, a young black man, who commented on people who wouldn’t make eye contact with him, and he was assuming they were all racist.

    What he didn’t realize is that people who have personality disorders, or extreme shyness, or other issues, have a hard time connecting with anyone, regardless of skin color, gender, ethnicity, or other attributes.

    If someone appears to “blow you off,” it may not be because they hate you, or that it’s over your skin color, or whatever else, but may have nothing to do with you personally.

  138. @ RB: The Stepford Wife thing is by no means solely an SGM phenomenon, though… I’ve seen it in other places where I *know* people have never heard of SGM and wouldn’t give a hoot if they had.

    But it certainly is extreme in SGM, no question.

  139. You know, when I think about Martin Luther King, Jr. and what he accomplished, most churches today would never even entertain the thought of a segregated church. I know that occasionally a news story pops up to the contrary, but they are not the rule. It took a lot of work, sacrifice, and change to bring this country to that place. (And I won’t discount that there is room for improvement.)
    Today we see the tide turning in regards to the sexual abuse of children. I think people’s tolerance level for it is getting lower and lower. The church is going to have to face the fact that it can no longer use its “freedom of religion” card as some sort of “get out of jail free” card when it comes to pastoral council being used as an excuse to cover up the sexual abuse of children. I hope there will come a day when no church anywhere will entertain the thought of a cover up. And, whatever has gone wrong in some churches today, I hope we can sound enough of an alarm to help people avoid the abusive ones. As other people on this blog have said, we have to vote with our feet. If more people know what to avoid, those churches will shrivel up and die.

  140. @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    That is one of the things I’ve never understood about gender complementarians, especially the hard core variety.

    Even if you grant them their biblical interpretations about about women being submissive to men, all they can muster is that married women are to (supposedly) submit to their husbands (as a child to a parent, in their view), or that women should not hold positions of leadership in a church setting.

    But there are no Bible verses that talk about unmarried women submitting to men (aside from the verse of all believers submitting one to another), nor does the Bible teach that a woman (married or not) have to go to a man to get access to God (for the NT states both males and females have only one mediator – High Priest, Jesus).

    The Bible also has nothing to say about women holding authoritative positions above men in the secular world, or it does not limit them in their roles in secular society, not that I can remember.

    But I have seen some hard core Christian gender complementarians trying to stretch their views to encompass all women, even unmarried ones, in all situations (to include what they may and may not do outside the church). In this, they are over stepping their boundaries.

    Which is yet another clue for me that their teachings about gender amounts to sexism and is about controlling women, and not about being faithful to what the Bible teaches.

    What’s odder still is how gender complementarianism goes against the Bible while those who hold it claim they are following it. What I mean is…

    There is a passage or two in the NT where Paul writes that Christians should to a point, in some scenarios, go along with their (secular) culture so as not to cause the unbelievers to stumble.

    If everyone in your church is doing “X,” but “X” looks weird to your Non-Christian community, then Paul says to stop doing “X”.

    If your Non-Christian community is doing “Z,” he seems to advise you, too, to go along with “Z” as well, so as not to make Christianity look odd-ball or out of step.

    When you consider that most secular (American) culture now recognizes that women are just as capable, trustworthy, and intelligent as men and that lots of Non Christians find Christian treatment of women to be backwards, oppressive, and to the point that some secular entertainers have actually compared Christians to the Taliban on this topic, you would think it would cause the gender complementarians to pause and think maybe they’re wrong about gender roles.

    I’m not saying Christians should always cave in or buckle to secular or popular values, and I don’t think that’s what the apostle Paul meant, either – just to clarify.

    It’s interesting that Christian gender complementarians take pride in being “counter cultural,” when they are most likely needlessly acting as a stumbling block to a lot of people over gender role teachings.

  141. Babywise is the secular version of Preparation for Parenting which is the infant book with GKGW being the toddler through teen tome.

    Upon seeing the responses to LT and his trivializing the pain he was inflicting upon children quipping about protapllasmic stimulation, I don’t think poor Larry has a good accurate understanding of what is going on at a physiological level. When he hits his poor victim, he is initiating a depolarization of a sensory neuron that is the beginning of a cascade along the neuron that we call an action potential.

  142. Reading this post was like trying to get through a horror movie. I’ve previously commented my thoughts about those who have suffered in this situation, but will repeat that I’m so sorry about what you went through. I am believing for you in your recovery, and to your wholeness, and that there will be many blessings throughout your life.

    @justabeliever – unfortunately supposedly PMS doesn’t exist anymore. See http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/pms-may-be-gone-but-women-are-in-no-mood-to-lose-anger-20130114-2cpnd.html
    My slant – you will lose IQ reading the article and be just about at frontal lobotomy level from reading the comments. ?reverse feminism. At least this may prompt a conversation with Ob/Gyn doctors who have always thought this way and been dismissive of women who suffer from PMS.

    @wisdomchaser and Jeff S – interesting comments on eye contact. That holds for more ‘traditional’ Indigenous peoples here. And they’re not shifty and most don’t have aspergers. Is direct eye contact a Western construct? (where’s numo)

  143. @ BeenThereDoneThat: churches today might not say that they’re segregated, but the truth is that there’s a *lot* of de facto segregation still (imo, anyway).

    I am basing this opinion on my time in the D.C. area, and the fact that even though some of the places where I attended had a handful of non-white members, the churches were white. They just were… and were in great contrast to the basically all-black churches in black neighborhoods and predominantly black neighborhoods in the District as well as in the ‘burbs.

    (The NoVA ‘burbs are changing, but when I lived there, I chose to live in predominantly “mixed” neighborhoods… but believe me, NoVA and MD and even D.C. have more than their share of all-white ‘hoods…. which are often segregated by income and social class as much as by skin color.)

  144. @ Haitch: Hey, I’ll put money on direct eye contact being a US thing.

    As in, originated in the US and is believed to be the standard by many, if not most, people in the US today.

    am not meaning to say that direct eye contact only exists here, just that it seems to be a peculiarly American thing.

  145. @ Haitch: also, your comment about native cultures in Oz rings a bell – isn't this part of the setup with characters/contrasting cultures in some well-known Aussie movies? (Thinking of "The Last Wave" and "Walkabout"; am sure there are others…)

  146. Rafiki wrote:

    “sin sniffing”, terror over one’s election, terror over an Angry God (TM) manifested through intense study and pondering of His wrath, IKDG madness, pride, pride, pride, complementarianism, mistrust in wicked civil authorities, and more pride in teachers who are reformed because they are really feeding us “red meat” via intellectually vigourous study (unlike those poor unserioius rubes dancing to the praise band swallowing pablum from the pulpit of the seeker-sensitive megachurch). Did I mention pride?
    If you suffer from any level of self-loathing, you will find a terrific place to grow it as you steep yourself in this doctrine. Woe to you if you develop any mental health issues, however! Surely this means you were never one of the elect, and seeking therapy only proves it!

    There was a lot of what you said I related to!

    I’ve written before here of how many American Christians are woefully ignorant and insensitive towards Christians who mental health problems, and it’s not confined to just the Calvinists or Reformed, but I’ve seen it crop up among Baptists, Pentecostals, and other groups.

    (Some Christians even deny that a “real” Christian can have mental health problems.)

    About shallow vs. deep teaching.

    I’ve noticed that a lot of Calvinists are intellectually prideful. They put a lot of stock in holding a college degree, being able to read Hebrew, etc.

    Many of them (on blogs and forums) imply that to have a true, accurate understanding of the Bible, one must know Hebrew, Greek, and have a seminary degree.

    I don’t agree with them on that emphasis, but I can’t say I totally agree with the typical hyper- conservative evangelical or fundamentalist distrust or dislike of education, either.

    I’ve seen Christians who both support and disagree with Calvinism that much of the teachings one will hear in a church today (regardless of denomination) is watered-down, and this is something that upsets them.

    I can see both sides of that one.

    I do think a lot of Christian teaching is dumbed down today (especially in the “seeker friendly” churches), which can and does drive away older Christians, or ones of any age who are grappling with some serious heartbreaking problems.

    I’ve read books where Christians are interviewed about why they stopped going to church, and one big reason many of them cite is that sermons are dumbed down and not addressing the weighty, every day problems of life people are really dealing with, and that there is too much fluff.

    On the other hand, I am not totally against the sort of “pep talk” sermons that get criticized… the ones that get written off as “motivational speeches” where little quotation of the Bible takes place.

    I think there is a need for both types of teaching in Christianity, both the intellectual sort and the light, warm and fuzzy variety.

    There are times I want or need to hear serious, deep intellectual biblical teachings, and other times, for example, if I’m hurting or depressed, and want a preacher to give me a warm and fuzzy message reminding me that yes, God, still loves me and hasn’t forgotten about me.

    I wish there was more of a balance on this issue, but I see so many Christians fall into one group or another. They either hate the intellectual approach, or they hate the warm and fuzzy one. IMHO, believers need both.

  147. @Lynne T
    I’m with you on your last dot point, my radar is all over the shop. I only made it 45 seconds. Perhaps it could just be a patriarchal thing that I’m sensing though, as I always have instant hackles at controlling, authoritarian men who have no respect for women, even if they couch it over with smiling nice-ities and try to keep it well hidden. The alternative is just too awful to consider.

    @brad/futurist guy – I much prefer your solid analysis. You would be a dangerous man if you worked for the Secret Service !

  148. @ numo:
    I agree with you that there is still “de facto segregation.” I guess what I meant is that churches today would not openly endorse it. It’s morally wrong, and people recognize that.

  149. @ BeenThereDoneThat: Again… I think a lot of people are absolutely *not* convinced that it’s morally wrong – the opposite, rather. But they don’t often say it directly, as earlier decades.

    Still, they find a way. there was an incredibly painful piece on This American Life (PRI/NPR) this week by a black lawyer who did some moonlighting as a country club busboy (in the NYC area) in order to find out how he and other young associates at his law firm – who were *never* taken to the country club by senior partners – might be treated if they were. (Women and people of color were never asked; in this firm, Jewish people were also not given invites.)

    It’s a very sobering piece, to say the least.

  150. I thought this information might be able to help someone who is in a similar situation.

    A guy who was sexually abused over 40 or 50 years ago asked an advice writer for guidance, because he was still struggling with the abuse years later.

    He was told to visit this site to get help and additional advice (I have only glanced at their home page. I think they are secular.):

    MaleSurvivor.org/

  151. @numo
    To my eternal shame I have not seen (or heard!) of Peter Weir’s The Last Wave, or even Walkabout ! Shame shame shame. I will rectify that this week at the eclectic DVD library. I should just google David Gulpilil and follow him.

    ‘Yolgnu boy’ probably fits the category also.

    Have you seen Ten Canoes? (has David Gulpilil’s son Jamie in it) – it’s a joy to watch.

    Not so ‘Samson and Delilah’ by the very talented writer/director Warwick Thornton. A film that had to be made though.

  152. Haitch wrote:

    … I’m sensing though, as I always have instant hackles at controlling, authoritarian men who have no respect for women, even if they couch it over with smiling nice-ities and try to keep it well hidden.

    One thing I dislike are the Christian gender complementarians, and there are men and women who do this, who push this ‘sexism- with- a- veneer- of- christianese’ as being for your benefit!

    I have seen male and female complementarians rationalize that keeping Christian women out of positions of influence, control, and authority (or just from using their Holy- Spirit- given gifts), allowing men to trample over them and their rights, etc., is to protect them.

    I think CBE.org had an author of one article who termed this sort of thing “benevolent sexism.” (Some who practice it may even sincerely think they are helping women.)

    I’m not sure how being treated less- than- equal, being discriminated against, not being allowed to exercise my God given gifts, being encouraged to submit even more to, or stay with , an abusive husband (if I were married), or ignored, and all over something I can’t change (outside of sex change surgery, no thank you) is “beneficial” to me.

    @BeenThereDoneThat
    I’m glad you liked my post.
    I remember that song when it first came out! It’s very catchy. 🙂

  153. Thanks all, for the recent input. I must remember that human history is replete with spiritual and other forms of abuse, long before formal systematic theology, and the post about different ways of thinking is an eye opener for me.

    numo, I suffered some of these same things in non SGM churches, too. As a child, my family endured some of the effects of racism, in a community which had very little of a reformed presence. But the arrogance and hatred in the name of Jesus are still alive and well, and just as dangerous. Perhaps I’m more discerning with age, perhaps on hyper-alert for them, perhaps just fed up, now, but no, I shouldn’t be making blanket statements.

    Thanks for the link to the RickRoss site, Dee. I’ll check it out. Have read there, before.

  154. Daisy wrote:
    But I have seen some hard core Christian gender complementarians trying to stretch their views to encompass all women, even unmarried ones, in all situations (to include what they may and may not do outside the church). In this, they are over stepping their boundaries.
    Which is yet another clue for me that their teachings about gender amounts to sexism and is about controlling women, and not about being faithful to what the Bible teaches.

    I was just reading a bit from John Calvin which leads me to believe he’d condemn any gender views (including complementarianism) with anything less than total male authority and superiority. Excerpts from his I Cor 11 commentary:
    “The  woman was created for this purpose — that she might be a distinguished ORNAMENT of the man…
     He establishes by two arguments the pre-eminence, which he had assigned to men above women. The first is, that as the woman derives her origin from the man, she is therefore INFERIOR  in rank. The second is, that as the woman was created for the sake of the man, she is therefore SUBJECT to him …
    It is asked, whether he speaks of married women exclusively, for there are some that restrict to them what Paul here teaches, on the ground that it does not belong to virgins to be under the authority of a husband. It is however a mistake, for Paul looks beyond this — to God’s eternal law, which has made the female sex SUBJECT to the authority of men. On this account all women are born, that they may acknowledge themselves INFERIOR  in consequence of the superiority of the male sex.” (My caps)
    I’m not saying Calvinists or Reformed need to accept this to be consistent, but thinking Complementarians who quote Calvin a lot might want to realize they’d have no friend in him on this topic.

  155. @ Dave:

    “It is however a mistake, for Paul looks beyond this — to God’s eternal law, which has made the female sex subject to the authority of men.”

    This is basically the same argument used in 1 Corinthians 14…but has any complementarian/patriarch ever actually cited this “law”? And bald proof-free assertions that it is Genesis 3:16 don’t count because that verse doesn’t say squat about women being silent.

  156. I should have said “soft” complementarians who quote Calvin wouldn’t get his support. The hard core ones might, if they’re hard enough core. 🙂

  157. anon 1 wrote:

    ” A change of name. How does Union of Sovereign Grace Churches sound? If you don’t like that, please send us your suggestions.”

    Anyone besides me think of Union of Soviet Socialist Republics when they read that?

  158. @ Hester:
    To be fair to Johnny C, in this section of commentary he refers to Gen 2:18 “It is not good for a man to be alone. Let us make for him etc.” as the Law in question (and adds “eternal” without explanation.)

  159. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    You know, when I think about Martin Luther King, Jr. and what he accomplished, most churches today would never even entertain the thought of a segregated church. I know that occasionally a news story pops up to the contrary, but they are not the rule. It took a lot of work, sacrifice, and change to bring this country to that place.

    Our current head minister has been at our church for 15 1/2 years. During that time, we’ve seen a big increase in the number of African-Americans and Hispanics coming to our congregation. We have people doing simultaneous translation into Spanish and Portuguese(those that need translations can get headsets in the foyer.) Most of us are pleased . . . however, I have, on one occasion, heard that there are some who have left our church because there are “too many black people”. 🙁

  160. Dee, re: Gracetowho? on the RR site, Yep, and I was edged out of a church which idolized all things JM,(though they advertized themselves as non-denom) because they found out that I was a charismatic, although I kept it to myself and was everything even that kind of church leader could have called for. I was immediately shunned by every person there, even my e-mails were blocked. This was years ago, but I’m still learning to disregard what stance a church SAYS it takes, and look at what they actually do, or don’t do with all people, believers and non-believers.

  161. @ Tina:
    Well, if true, the attitude of the people who left is wrong. It’s just wrong!
    One interesting thing about the anonymity of conversing on this blog is that we can’t see the color of each other’s skin or see each other’s gender. Some things may be obvious by the name one chooses to post under. But I read and consider your comments based solely on content. I like that. I wish we could always be as blind to those things in real life. I hate that it even has to be an issue that divides us. There’s obviously still a lot in our society that needs to change.

  162. @ anon 1:

    anon 1 wrote:

    The Judge is a woman. The lead Plaintiff lawyer is a women. I mean, this is his worst nightmare.

    And I think we can all see God’s hand in that, yes? I know I had a good chuckle over it. 🙂

  163. Evie wrote:

    It will take every ounce of self-control within his body for CJ to be seated in a courtroom and to subject himself to questions by a woman. I cannot image him looking her in the eye with any sense of respect. How will he hide his sneer?

    Humbly, of course.

  164. Evie wrote:

    By the way, CJ has a sleeping disorder. Even when he desires to sleep or needs to sleep he cannot. But he must and its a constant struggle.

    I’ve been there. My mind literally cannot turn off to sleep. What this means is I’m usually walking around in a state of sleep deprivation of some sort. And that doesn’t leave anyone wrapped all that tight. And when you’re sleep-deprived, you often say stupid things. Or react over-the-top.

  165. anon 1 wrote:

    I think his act has been so perfected over years he does not even know he is doing it.

    He has worn the mask so long he has become the mask. And if you were to take off the mask, you would find nothing behind it.

  166. @ Dave A A:

    Someone else has read some Calvin and sees what I have seen.

    Be careful, Dave, because you do know that what Calvin wrote, as you interpreted it, is not what he really meant? YOU are misinterpreting him and simply don’t understand his writing because you are too dull of wit (JC’s Apologist).

  167. @ Haitch: Thanks for the recs!

    I’ll see if I can find them – not sure how or why The Last Wave and Walkabout became so well-known in “film” circles over here, but they have, and are available on DVD as part of the Criterion Collection (prestigious “arty” film reissues) along with titles like My Brilliant Career, etc.

    I think David Gulpilil is pretty mesmerizing, so am going to be on the lookout for the movie with his son.

  168. @ Haitch: The Last Wave falls apart in the last 3d of the film, but I think the performances and subject matter put it in the “good” category.

  169. Eagle wrote:

    His teachings about Catholicism were what bit me in the ass when I went through my Irish Catholic Grandmother’s funeral in 2009. It so angered me.

    Treaty of Westphalia ended the Reformation Wars in 1648, and he STILL hadn’t gotten the word?

  170. numo wrote:

    (The NoVA ‘burbs are changing, but when I lived there, I chose to live in predominantly “mixed” neighborhoods… but believe me, NoVA and MD and even D.C. have more than their share of all-white ‘hoods…. which are often segregated by income and social class as much as by skin color.)

    A couple months ago, TIME Magazine had an article on the social whirl in DC. Apparently DC has the largest gap between rich and poor of any American city. From the article, they may as well change the city’s name to “Panem” and start hosting the Hunger Games.

  171. Ken Silva just notified me he’s done an article on spiritual abuse covering the foundations of PDI/SGM, the Shepherding Movement, ties it with NAR even has Neo-Calvinists Driscoll in the article. It’s very interesting:

    http://apprising.org/2013/01/22/beware-of-spiritual-abuse/

    Ken’s blog is one of the most popular Christian blogs and it’s nice to see SGM lawsuit finally spread in the Christian community. The mainstream media has been far ahead in reporting this. Funny how that works. No, pathetic is more like it.

  172. @ Julie Anne: He covers a lot of ground and does it pretty well.

    I totally agree that there are things that tie the current iteration of authoritarian churches to both shepherding and the NAR. I have seen that in action, though at churches other than SGM.

  173. @ Julie Anne:

    Good to hear that Silva is writing about it. I’m also glad to see that he’s corresponding with you, as he hasn’t had many nice things to say about egalitarians in the past and sometimes seems to equate them with false teachers on the blog. (Last I checked he refers to a woman pastor as a “pastrix.”) That being said, I think he does good work exposing the NAR and the wackier factions of the emergent church. Hopefully he’ll dig deeper about SGM though I’m sure it will spin him right up. : )

  174. I was in DC in the late 60’s and it was like that then, pathetic that this should still be so, and especially, of all places in the U.S.A.

  175. RB, I tend to agree with you about the REformed doctrine with a few nuances. I think most of the Western church adopted in some form or another the Greek chain of being thinking. Think of it as what Jesus said about the Gentiles lording it over. We adopted those systems and they ebb and flow throughout history. There seems to have always been a group to rebel in some form or another against it. They flee ro whatever and end up doing the same thing!

    The problem with the Augustine/Calvin filter is that is enforces and affirms thewhat turns to tyranny. You were right about PDI and it’s holiness factor as in it is dangerous to allow people to hear from God. They tend to become independent. And lets face it, running a shepherding movement in the 70’s and 80’s was much easier than now with all the social media and mass communication. One can get Greek at their fingertips now. So more and more controls and ways to censor have to be added. Doctrine is the only way in this day and time. With the YRR it is they have the truth or “true Gospel” and others don’t. I personally believe they are the real Calvinists. Like the Puritans died out, we see all through history raw unadulterated Calvinism die out and the focus go liberal with social justice or something. It is very hard to maintain over generations because it is so tyrannical. Look at how innocent Lutheranism is compared to even 60 years ago in Europe!

    I have been reading more and more Calvin and he really believed he was chosen by God to lead Genevans. This lead to banishments, imprisonments, drownings and burnings for disagreeing about God.

    I think we tend to give the Reformation too much credit. It pretty much spawned as many tyrants as the Catholics. In fact, I would say much of it was mostly political because there was really a blurring line on power politics and the state church. I believe a good reading of history gives us hints there were always a small remnant who just wanted freedom to worship and share the Christ of the scriptures. Not the one of the Reformation.

    All this Reformation worship that has become so popular really boggles my mind. How on earth can a free people even relate to such a thing or be glad there was a another state church come from it? They were “reforming” the Catholic church and eventually a war on interpretations broke out again. The REformation replaced the focus on sacraments in worship to making the “preaching” the focus and that gave us the rise of celebrity pastors with way too much power.

  176. Hester – I’m glad, too. Ken is very careful on what he reports. He must have credible documentation or hear it from primary sources (which is why he finally exposed my former pastor when he could hear from the pastor who revoked his license). I appreciate that about Ken. I don’t know about all of what Ken believes, but when it comes to spiritual abuse, he gets it. For that I am thankful.

  177. Julie Anne wrote:

    my former pastor when he could hear from the pastor who revoked his license

    Since when do you need a license to be a preacher. Or is this a denominational thing?

  178. ” I do think it is worth considering that Christianity did not begin with the Church Fathers. Many (most?) of them even greatly disdained the Jews and the Jewish culture. This caused most of them to ignore the culture in which Jesus was born. I believe that many teachings in Christianity, as we see them today, have been deeply troubled (even warped) by the lack of understanding Jesus from the perspective of the culture into which he was born.

    Oh, I agree! NT Wright touches on this a lot. We tend to forget how political the concept of a Isrealite “Messiah” was in the 1st Century, too. I believe we have lost the Jewishness of Jesus. I do disagree with Numo about Bailey as I think his book gives us important contextual insight and believe a “Westerner” who lived in the ME for 40 years (and I think spent some childhood there, too) can give us insight we can understand. Bridge the chasm of understanding, if you will.

  179. anon 1, Thanks for that great post! And, if we were living in a Puritan community right now, we’d all be burned at the stake for being witches or wizards, yet sad, because they really thought they had it right and came to the colonies to practice in freedom and safety. Abuse is certainly not relegated to Reformed theology, but spiritual abuse can thrive in it, if not moderated closely. It boggles my mind that the Puritans are so admired by YRR.

  180. @ anon 1:

    Bailey has much more understanding of the ME than most of us, and certainly me. I especially enjoyed the chapter on Jesus and Women.

  181. Thanks for the next post, too, anon 1. Although anti-Semitism raises its ugly head, along with other forms of racism, in and outside of religious arenas, there are factions, aspects of anti-Semitism which love to quote Calvin, Luther and the RCC, not knowing that it originated around 200 A.D. with Greek misinterpretation and misapplication, as far as the Bible goes. No wonder Jews don’t trust Christians. Every symbol we love represents some abuse they have suffered in the past. We need to understand our debt to Israel, and to Judaism. Jews need to hear the real gospel, just like any non-believer, but it is so much more difficult for them to see through the filter of the past. All things are possible with God, however, but as with the millstone Jesus spoke of regarding child abuse, I believe there are millstones waiting for anti-Semites and racists of other stripes.

  182. I was skimming through a book on Google books called “Code Switching” (by Audrey Nelson and Claire Brown) and it discusses things such as why some people don’t make eye contact (on page 15 – I hope that links works), which is funny ,since some of us were talking about that above. (I was looking up books about how males and females communicate differently; I was not seeking out books about eye contact.)

    Also of interest (considering previous posts on this blog about John Piper’s views about gender roles): on pages 11 – 12 of the book, it talks about how gender roles in different cultures are viewed.

    In one culture (the Arapesh), it says men and women are equally nurturing and take turns caring for babies and children, while in others, such as

    … the Mundugamor, … a tribe of headhunters and cannibals… both men and women were aggressive and violent. Women demonstrated little maternal behaviors, had little regard for pregnancy and nursing, and were always eager to return to war. In short, these tribes saw gender differences as nonexistent.

    I think that goes to show that our culture influences how we view gender roles.

    I think Christian gender complementarians carry a lot of late 18th century to mid 19th century Western civilization ideas (culture)into the Bible, but ironically, they claim it’s the Christian gender egalitarians who do this, via secular American feminism of the 1960s and 1970s.

  183. “Abuse is certainly not relegated to Reformed theology, but spiritual abuse can thrive in it, if not moderated closely”

    It does thrive because of the determinist god doctrine. The others thrive for a while off cult of personality authoritarianism. But it is harder to control folks for long who believe they have free will. I can tell you that seeker megas should install a turnstyle at their doors. AS many are leaving as coming in. There are usually other factors at work and it is complex. It can be peer pressure, entertainment, relationships, social life, etc. We tried it all in the seeker mega world but the Reformed folks have the doctrine to back it up. I have never seen such blind loyalty in all my life to an ST. Where is the Holy Spirit?

  184. Anyone see the documentary by Aaron Russo, America, Freedom to Fascism? He was friends for awhile with one of the Rockefellers, who told him during a chat, that the whole feminist movement was designed to broaden the tax base, and then laughed. Margaret Senger, the proponent of what is now Planned Parenthood, was a racist, wanting to target black women to curtail the population of African Americans. It has been greatly responsible for decimating the Black population, and PP still targets low income areas, for the most part.

    I see myself as an egalitarian, but like to think of the verses used and not used by both camps, in context, taken together. Both sexes, all individuals, as believers, should be respectful and considerate of each other. We are made in God’s image and share in salvation. The things we share are more important than the differences.

  185. Personally, anon 1, I agree with your response of 11:05, although I have met some Reformed folks who are not spiritually abusive or anti-Semitic, so didn’t want to give the impression that their doctrine always leads them to that end. Most of them were Lutheran, and as I understand it, their synods have been doing some “soul searching”, regarding their history.

  186. @ anon 1: I’m not saying that he has no insight; didn’t really want to get into specifics here.

    But I think he makes some big leaps that aren’t all that logical or – necessarily – accurate.

    fwiw, I have friends who’ve been working with Wycliffe for many years in a country I cannot name. I feel like I have learned a great deal from them… and it doesn’t necessarily jive with many of the things that Bailey says.

    Specific #1: his comment about Batheheba goes from “ME people are modest” (agreed) to “She was bathing in front of a window.” ???! And he knows that because…? That steamed me; there is *nothing* in the text to suggest that she was trying to throw herself at anyone in the way he says, nor does it seem as if she had much choice about being taken to the palace once David saw her. Was she perhaps thinking she was alone and in private and thus completely unaware of his gaze?

    The text doesn’t say, but neither does it say that she was choosing to entice him, either.

    That’s one of many stretches that I see him making. if the book was truly focused on material from the earliest commentaries and manuscripts, I would be its greatest supporter, but it really is not. I felt awfully let down after reading the intro. – where he says that’s exactly what he’s going to do – and then find out that he basically does not do that at all.

    Oh well. I wish Amazon.com would let me return it, but their Kindle setup doesn’t work that way…

  187. @ RB: Not certain which synods you’re referring to. I am ELCA (Evangelical Luth,. church of america), and it is true of that synod.

    But I think *many* people were aware of Luther’s anti-semitism for decades; also that many know of his obvious flaws and inconsistencies.

    For my part, I can only tell you that the focus in the Christian ed. at the church where I grew up was on Jesus, not Luther. (Though to be fair, I was not involved after a certain point – around 7th or 8th grade – so I missed catechism classes altogether.)

  188. Well, decades should probably be “centuries” – problem is, there were some who agreed with his rabid anti-semitism all along, but few who would have gone to the extent he was insisting on – until the Nazis came along.

    Kristallnacht was, in some ways, based on exactly what he wrote in “On the Jews and Their Lies” – as you can imagine, it’s a horrific text.

  189. Yes, numo, I think all of the synods had at least started changing in regards to race around the 50’s and 60’s, and it appears to me that by the 70’s and 80’s things had changed a lot for the better with it across the board. We had been in ELCA and MS.

  190. @ RB: I'm in my mid-50s… I cannot remember anyone talking about "On the jews and Their Lies" when I was young, but I also cannot remember anyone *endorsing* anything like it, either. I have a feeling that that was partly because WWII and the Holocaust were so fresh in everyone's minds. I grew up in a *very* white small town, so cannot speak to how things might have been (or not been) re. race and skin color, though I do know that my hometown congregation has always been active in the local Roundtable of Christians and Jews.

    As for the social ills that the Civil Rights movement addressed, I do think you're right about Roman Catholics being in the forefront of change there, along with Episcopalians. I think my prior synod (LCA) was not as quick on the draw there as they might have been, though it's entirely possible that I'm lacking info. on that. (Having been a kid at the time.)

  191. @ RB: I think you’re good at understatement, RB.

    Though there certainly is no denying the extent of anti-semitism in Europe, from the Middle Ages on.

  192. Article is a critique of kenneth E. Bailey’s theories on oral tradition – this link is to a PDF of the article in question.

    *

    One problem I have had with Bailey’s “Jesus” book is that he appears to equate 1st c. Palestine with contemporary Middle Eastern societies. I am not at all certain that is a wise – or historically accurate – approach, and my frustration with many aspects of the book have a great deal to do with his assumption that Near Eastern societies have been somehow unchanging and unchanged since the early 1st centruy A.D.

    *

    There is an interesting series of posts on his “Paul” book here: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/bibleandculture/2012/08/18/paul-thru-mediterranean-eyes-a-review-part-one/

    I have not read his book on Paul, but I do agree with the writer that there are some serious problems with Bailey’s methodology in the “Jesus” book. (he goes into detail in the linked post.)

  193. numo, I’ll have to check the link, thanks. IDK how the Lutherans are sitting right now re: the re-birth of Israel as a state since 1948. Are some synods in the WCC? WCC is anti-Zionist and really vilifying Israel right now for defending themselves against the terrorists, who had/have still? been bombing them daily for 8 years. I don’t see how any country would put up with that. Calling Israel Nazis while the PA is denying the Holocaust even existed. I see 1948 as direct fulfillment of prophecy, but if one thinks Israel has been forsaken by God and replaced, then I guess it makes sense to them that there shouldn’t be a Jewish homeland anymore. It often seems like the RCC and the WCC are speaking out of both sides of their mouths re Israel. Not to say that Israel is right in everything they’re doing, but my goodness. International law gives every country which has been attacked, (as Israel was in 1967) upon victory, the recognition that whatever lands had been gained in the process, as rightfully theirs. The surrounding Arab states refuse to take the PA back to their original countries. The MSM is so hypocritical about it all. Life is much better for the average Muslim or for women or Christians, than in the rest of the ME. Mind boggling. I do believe that satan wants to destroy Christians and Jews. Well, everything God created, because he hates God, who loves life.

  194. @ RB: I think it’s safe to say that your views and mine differ a great deal – and I’ll bow out of any discussion of Israel.

    all the best,
    numo

  195. Thanks for the critiques numo, I’ll keep in mind as I’m reading that book which I’ve recently purchased. I’ve also just purchased “Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes”. Yet to dig into them. I think Sallie recommended one or both of them last year?

  196. Agreed, numo, and I know other Christians who disagree with me on Israel. I do need to change what I said about the PA. Actually the jihadist groups, often with the help of PA. The PA itself sometimes SAYS it wants peace.

  197. @ Haitch: Haitch – I highly recommend that 1st article I linked to. (fwiw, part of my academic training was in history and I did work that relied largely on oral history later on – the thing is, based on that training, which has nothing to do with NT or OT studies, I am suspicious of about 95% of what Bailey claims as fact in his “Jesus” book. I think the author of the article demonstrates why it’s important not to take such assertions at face value… but I also want to add that I believe it’s important to examine – and cross-examine – any claims like the ones Bailey makes. Discussion – and dissension – are how we learn.)

  198. Moniker wrote:

    Here’s a news story of a child sexually abused by a teacher 30 years ago in Charlotte, North Carolina. The child’s mother went to school administrators with her suspicions and she was told she had nothing to worry about. The former teacher was charged yesterday with taking indecent liberties with a child after the victim confronted her over the phone and she apologized for what had happened, not knowing that the police were listening in on the call. http://www.wcnc.com/news/crime/Former-CMS-teacher-facing-sex-charge–187823371.html

    As someone who was also abused 30 years ago but does not have the option of reporting the abusers because too much time has passed (in fact, one of them just moved to house less than a mile away from me)…I find that news story very interesting. Thanks for the link.

  199. @ Haitch: incidentally, the key phrase in that article on Bailey had me really puzzled until I got to the end… because my own experience of the word in question (haflat or hafla) is what the author says it is – a party, usually with music, dancing, etc. You can see that in ads (in print and online) for haflas given for the public. (I have an acquaintance in TX – a syrian immigrant – who frequently puts on such parties as a showcase for her dance students as well as for her own singing performances – and maybe a bit of Arabic-language karaoke as well.)

    In sum, the article is really good on anecdotal evidence and the need for skepticism in evaluating stories, whether told by Bailey or someone else. I think Bailey has a somewhat (how to say this politely?) exaggerated sense of his own importance as *the* source of knowledge about Middle Eastern societies, the Bible, etc. I do not know why he presents himself in this way, but it troubles me a lot and I find him untrustworthy.

    OK, I'm sure some of you are ready to run me out of town on a rail by now! But it is my opinion… and I haven't studied Bailey's work in the way that some others clearly have, so can't lay claim to being anything close to an expert. But I had to learn to be suspicious of solely anecdotal evidence when I was working on oral history projects. Informants often will alter details to fit what they believe the interviewer wants to hear – I *know* that happened to me, and there was nothing I could do about it, except to table the material where that kind of thing had a tendency to come up. It is very hard to base historical connections on hearsay.

  200. Hi All, not specifically dealing with the topic at hand but relating to the man/woman relationship within the Church, here is a link that was shared today on the newlife dot id dot au facebook page:
    http://tentpegs.patrickmead.net/?p=1815
    It is a long read as the blogger warns you, but I think you all would appreciate the woman’s questions and Patrick’s response. May his tribe increase!

  201. Hester,
    you wrote ‘…(Last I checked he refers to a woman pastor as a “pastrix.”)…’

    I now have a vision of a woman standing in the pulpit juggling Copenhagens and petit fours. Silly joke, I know, but I appreciate the humor (good heavens, I’m starting to type American!) that runs through TWW. It is a much needed foil to the sombre subject matter.

  202. @ Oasis:
    I was also surprised that she was arrested even though so much time had passed. I wonder how that works. It’s likely that there were other victims, and I hope they speak up.

  203. RB

    I am sympathetic to Israel because they are a democracy in that region. They treat their women well, allowing them to serve at all levels of government, etc. unlike some of their neighbors. They have transformed that region using unique agricultural methods, etc. and are an example in that regard to the nations around them.They were given their land by treaty, and they have the right to defend themselves.I  do not know much about the boundaries of that agreement so I need to bow out of that part of the discussion.

    The quibble I have with the whole thing is the claims by Christians that the re-establishment of Israel is the fulfillment of the promise of Scriptures. Some even link it to Jesus prophecy that "I tell you know, some standing here will not perish until these things come to pass." That is why there was a spate of prediction that the Second Coming was upon us in the 80s and 90s.  That prophecy, to me, was clearly speaking of the destruction the Temple in 70 AD and linking it to the state of Israel.

    Also, the covenants of the OT were clearly linked to a repentance on the part of Israel for their disobedience. Repent, then the land was given to them. That is clearly not the case with this establishment of the State of Israel. It was founded as a secular nation and not due to any repentance on behalf of the whole nation. 

    However, I find it amazing that this little country has continued to dominate world politics so I do see the hand of God in it. But, I do not know for what purpose. Color me confused.

  204. Moniker/Oasis

    Each state has there own peculiar brand of stautes of limitations on crimes. For example, many states start the clock ticking once the child has reached majority age. So, if the staute or limitations said the crime must be reported within 9 years, and the majority age is 18, the person has until the agoe of 27. This varies from state to state.

    Many states, in light of the Sandusky stuff, are reevaluating those laws.

  205. Wow, poor Kenneth Bailey!

    I never recommend a book with the thought that people will read it and agree with every single word and rely on the readers here are adult enough to come to their own conclusions. I realize there are different factions at work here with more liberal bent than I probably am when it comes to things ME/Muslim.

    To imply he emphatically makes the point ME society has not changed at all is taking it a bit far. I do not have his book in front of me but that is not the sense I got at all. There ARE certain things that have not changed at all in many parts. (Hello, burqa?)

    There ARE certain areas that have actually gone backwards AFTER progress was made (See Iran, Lebanon, etc) Will we add Syria, Egypt and others to the list?

    (I am NOT condoning dictatorships… in some parts of the Muslim world, there are less beheadings of women who have been raped when they have secular dictators believe it or not.)

    I have long term contacts from people who have grown up in areas of the ME like Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Dubai, etc and their stories always interest me. There are places in many ME countries where they are doing things such as cooking in brick ovens just as they were doing centuries ago. That is just one example of a “society” that has not changed much in Centuries. We cannot also discount how some of those societies have gone backwards after making some progress especially for women. And for most is due to Islam.

    There are those who do not like Israel and see this only true ME democracy as a villian in all things ME. I think that colors a lot here as we have had these discussions before. I agree with Dee about Isreal being the only real democracy in the ME and I am not supporting them for any Christian reason or end times doctrines which I think are silly. I do, however, love equal rights for women and think most ME countries are extremely oppressive. I also get a chuckle out of the fact that Arabs can be elected to the Knesset. Can you name any Arab country that allows Jewish leaders?

    As to Bathsheba, the only way we will know is if we do some serious research that bathing on the roof was the norm in that society during the day when there were homes above you that could see down.. Yes, modesty was big, to discount it is to discount a huge part of ancient societies…why did women cover in ancient societies both pagan and Jewish? The question is also, why was David home? He was supposed to be off at war. We do not have a lot to go on here with no inkling that Bathsheba resisted. I was uncoomfortable with that part of his book, too.

    But I think people should read Bailey and make up their own minds on which parts they agree or perhaps want to do more research on. We have a pretty sharp group that reads here.

  206. On Bailey and other reading . . . If I had to agree with everything in every book I read to recommend it or find it worthwhile, I might have to stop reading 🙂 Different perspectives are always good, since we all come from different social and cultural constructs. Bailey must understands something of the ME after living there so long, yet I also don’t view him as a final authority on anything. As far as people reading into scriptural text what isn’t there, I experience this in almost every sermon I listen to and every Christian book I read 🙁 I do look for it. I will continue to read Bailey as I don’t get the impression he is trying to be “the” anything.

    If anyone has some other suggestions for reading in this area I’d appreciate the suggestions. I’d like to see the Scriptures from the perspective of the culture from which they were written.

    As far as the current state if Israel, I hold much the same view as Dee. I don’t look to Israel for any indications of end times or fulfillment of prophecy. I believe the entrance of Jesus into the world introduced the New Covenant which introduces the people of God going forward as those filled with His Spirit. Others are certainly free to believe as their conscience leads.

  207. anon 1 wrote:

    All this Reformation worship that has become so popular really boggles my mind. How on earth can a free people even relate to such a thing or be glad there was a another state church come from it? They were “reforming” the Catholic church and eventually a war on interpretations broke out again. The REformation replaced the focus on sacraments in worship to making the “preaching” the focus and that gave us the rise of celebrity pastors with way too much power.

    Completely agree with this little snippet. One thing the reformation did was address the unchecked authoritative power of the institutional church. What good is it to simply set up another power structure, just with different doctrines and practices. Like a dog returning to its vomit.

  208. Apologies if I’ve gone overboard re. Bailey (and I think I have), but part of my reaction is due to the rash of comments on Amazon.com (and other sites) praising the book – and Bailey – to the skies.

    Part of it is my personal feeling about many aspects of the book; how Bailey derives his conclusions (in my opinion, anyway).

    But it’s also an effort to distract myself from some bad news I received yesterday…

  209. Kristin wrote:

    anon 1 wrote:

    All this Reformation worship that has become so popular really boggles my mind. How on earth can a free people even relate to such a thing or be glad there was a another state church come from it? They were “reforming” the Catholic church and eventually a war on interpretations broke out again. The REformation replaced the focus on sacraments in worship to making the “preaching” the focus and that gave us the rise of celebrity pastors with way too much power.

    Completely agree with this little snippet. One thing the reformation did was address the unchecked authoritative power of the institutional church. What good is it to simply set up another power structure, just with different doctrines and practices. Like a dog returning to its vomit.

    Good thoughts ladies!

  210. Julie Anne

    I assume you mean using Il Divo to deliver a message? It will be our new song for such a situation.

  211. @ Anon 1: The 1st article I linked to is about Bailey’s contentions on oral tradition – it is an important analysis and I do hope you’ll take the time to read it.

    I am not meaning to bash Bailey; I have serious questions about many things that he says as well as doubts as to his methodology (as already stated) and I wonder if anyone else is troubled by his conclusions + claims that he is using ancient sources yet rarely ever referring to them?

    it’s confusing and difficult to understand (for me) why he would state upfront that he is going to discuss those sources but rarely does – most of the book is based on *his* ideas and observations, not those of 1st century manuscripts and commentators.

  212. From the post and lawsuit:
    87. “Plaintiff Robin Roe’s adoptive father (“Parental Pedophile”) is a sexual deviant who sexually abused her older sister for three and one-half years. His criminal conduct was discovered by Robin Roe’s mother on or about November 2, 1987. Parental Pedophile was and remains a member of the Church.
    95.  The secular authorities prosecuted and incarcerated Parental Pedophile. During the incarceration, Defendants continuously intervened on his behalf, trying to reduce his sentence. When the Parental Pedophile was released from incarceration, Defendants continuously intervened with the secular authorities in supporting his effort to obtain custody of the children.”
    Ironic, isn’t it. Parental Pedophile paid his debt (in some measure) to society long ago, got out, and is still a member of CLC. The men who supported him, when they ought to have supported his victims, now face a dark and uncertain future.

  213. Kristin wrote:

    One thing the reformation did was address the unchecked authoritative power of the institutional church. What good is it to simply set up another power structure, just with different doctrines and practices.

    But this time *I* WILL BE IN CHARGE!

    “This time we WILL Achieve True Communism, because this time The Right People Will Be In Charge!”

  214. anon 1 wrote:

    With the YRR it is they have the truth or “true Gospel” and others don’t. I personally believe they are the real Calvinists. Like the Puritans died out, we see all through history raw unadulterated Calvinism die out and the focus go liberal with social justice or something. It is very hard to maintain over generations because it is so tyrannical.

    Like the cycle you see in the history of Islamic civilization. Islam spreads by the sword, settles and consolidates its gains and generally mellows out, then falls to a new barbarian wave of Pure True Islam from the edges of the Empty Quarter, an X-Treme version on fire to Restore The True Faith As It Was In The Days of The Prophet. The Wahabi (parents of al-Qaeda and the Taliban) are just the latest “Reformation back to The Pure True Faith of The Prophet” movement in the cycle.

  215. I listened to Cornel West last night sharing his feelings about Martin Luther King, Jr and his bible being used by President Obama at the Inauguration.

    The guy is pretty impassioned and I got to thinking about what he shared and the question Dee posed, “What Do the SGM Lawsuit and Martin Luther King Jr Have in Common?”

    First the video: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2013/01/23/cornel-west-obama-doesnt-deserve-be-sworn-martin-luther-king-jrs-bibl

    Cornel West said,

    “But no, when I got the news that my dear brother Barack Obama, President Obama was going to put his precious hand on Martin Luther King Jr.’s bible, I got upset. And I got upset because you don’t play with Martin Luther King Jr., and you don’t play with his people. And by his people what I mean is people of good conscience, fundamentally committed to peace and truth and justice, and especially the Black tradition that produced it.”

    I felt his sentiments could be shared with those of us who understand the nature of the church, the meaning and purpose of the gospel, our history, and the fight we are in for a pure Bride. I’m not saying we need to agree with the context of Dr. Cornel’s comments, but I think there’s a principle there that can be applied to this whole fiasco with SGM and the lawsuit: You don’t play around with God’s people.

    He goes on to say,

    “So I said to myself ain’t nothing wrong with putting your hand on the bible, even though the bible’s talking about justice, and Jesus is talking about the least of these, but when you put it on Martin’s bible, I said this is personal for me because this is the tradition that I come out of. This is the tradition that’s connected to my grandmother’s prayers and my grandfather’s sermons and my mother’s tears and my father’s smile. And it’s over against all of those in power who refuse to follow decent policies.”

    When our lives are directly impacted by the damage caused by SGM, when our friends and family were involved and affected, it becomes personal for two reasons: 1. We are in Christ and members of his body. What affects one of us affects us all. 2. We have a responsibility to fight for justice, to expose injustice and abuse, and to bring to justice those who are guilty of mishandling the word of God, who have trespassed against God’s people and used our gospel and the name of the Lord in vain.

    “But when Barack Obama attempts to use that rich tradition of Frederick Douglass and Ida B. Wells-Barnett, use the tradition of A. Philip Randolph, use the tradition of Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel, use the tradition of Tom Hayden and so many others struggling to produce that voice that pushed Martin in a direction that he did, I get upset.

    People say, “Oh brother West, there’s Smiley and West hating Obama.” No, no. We’re just loving the tradition that produced Martin Luther King Jr., and we’re not going to allow it to be in any way sanitized, deodorized, and sterilized. We want the subversive power to be heard. That’s what made me think when he said he was going to put his hand on that bible.”

    In the same way, I get upset when I know a CJ Mahaney is out there promoting a form of the gospel that is flawed, and that God’s people are being hoodwinked and misled. There’s more to my passion than my own personal experience or the suffering it’s caused my family. There’s God’s name at stake, and knowing Jesus died to set us free. Free! In the same sense Cornel West realizes Martin Luther King Jr. ended up losing his life in the battle to set people free. MLK Jr. symbolizes a struggle against oppression. Jesus Christ triumphed over sin and the power of bondage. Martin Luther King Jr’s bible was the foundation for the battle he fought and Cornel West wants that struggle to be respected. Our bibles contain the truth we follow, and we don’t like anyone using it in ways that deceive, mislead, or abuse others!

    p.s. For the record, I voted for Obama 🙂

  216. @ Julie Anne:

    Glad to hear he documents so carefully. I think Ken Silva’s church is actually less than an hour from my house, though I can’t remember its name at the moment. I know he is in CT. Funny because it seems that most of the high-profile abuse happens elsewhere (though of course I have no doubt that spiritual abuse abounds up here just as much as anywhere else). I wonder what got Apprising started? What did he see that made him start turning over the rocks?

  217. DaveAA

    The men who did this ought to repent and go into counseling themselves. They are whacked.

  218. Hester – I thought he was in VT, I could be wrong, though. I should ask him what got him started. I think I will. Now you’ve got me curious.

  219. dee wrote:

    However, I find it amazing that this little country has continued to dominate world politics so I do see the hand of God in it. But, I do not know for what purpose. Color me confused.

    All you have to do is goto say John Hagee or Hal Lindsey’s site and they will be glad to un-confuse you. You can even become a faith partner with them and help spread the gospel!

  220. By the way did anyone see Mark Driscoll’s horrible tweet Monday?

    “Praying for our president, who today will place his hand on a Bible he does not believe in to take an oath to a God he likely does not know.” Mark Driscoll

  221. Evie –

    A more realistic tweet would be:

    “The President obviously doesn’t know my Calvinista god.” Mark Driscoll

  222. numo, also sorry to hear you got bad news and will be praying. One thing I’m still learning, but getting stronger in over the years, is the reality of everything working to the good for the believer. Seems so hard when we’re in the middle of it, though.

  223. Here’s the answer, Proverbs 10:19 Where words are many; sin is not absent. LOL! with all that flailing around included it must be off the charts!

  224. RE: anon 1 UNITED STATES on Tue Jan 22, 2013 at 10:19 PM,

    Well put, & I concur heartily. In my opinion, the Reformation is just now starting to catch up with the Enlightenment. All of our Western theology was born in the milieu of the ancients who wrote the Bible and the medievals who codified it into a religion.

    With them there was no such thing as the rights of man and unchecked despots ruled the day with iron boots. Horrific forms of torture and execution were commonplace and no big deal unless of course it was you who happened to be on the receiving end.

  225. @ Evie: That is despicable!!! (I voted for Pres. Obama too.)

    Cornel West: Not sure I can agree with him, but I am so glad that he can voice his ideas freely!

  226. Bridget wrote:

    Evie –

    A more realistic tweet would be:

    “The President obviously doesn’t know my Calvinista god.” Mark Driscoll

    Ain’t that the truth, Bridget!

    Mark Driscoll

    Is a god

    Who feeds his Swallows (tweet! tweet!)

    Rotten

    Food

  227. Obama went to church on Sunday, before the official swearing in. Not broadly reported in the media.
    Obama went to church on Monday, before all the hoopla of the public inauguration. Not broadly reported in the media.
    Obama held a prayer event on Tuesday morning, with a Methodist and a Baptist (AA) preacher praying, and other activities.

    The guy goes to church more than Ronald Reagan, more than Bush I, more than Bush II, and possibly more than Clinton, did during their terms of office. Yet he never seems to get credit for being a man of faith or a Christian, because of his politics.

  228. @ Hester and Julie Anne~

    “@ Julie Anne:

    Glad to hear he documents so carefully. I think Ken Silva’s church is actually less than an hour from my house, though I can’t remember its name at the moment. I know he is in CT. Funny because it seems that most of the high-profile abuse happens elsewhere (though of course I have no doubt that spiritual abuse abounds up here just as much as anywhere else). I wonder what got Apprising started? What did he see that made him start turning over the rocks?”

    Ken Silva is neither in VT or CT. He resides in Claremont, NH. Here is a recent radio interview he did where he goes into some history of Apprising Ministries.
    http://www.saidradio.net/2013/01/our-interview-with-pastor-ken-silva-of.html

  229. “The guy goes to church more than Ronald Reagan, more than Bush I, more than Bush II, and possibly more than Clinton, did during their terms of office. Yet he never seems to get credit for being a man of faith or a Christian, because of his politics.”

    Just something to consider…do you have any ideas what it takes for a President to attend church in public? From security in advance and on the day to disrupting worship, etc. Did you know the worshippers have to pass through detectors, etc? I once attended a Christmas service where Clinton attended and it was a nightmare for all of us. I know a lot of people hate Reagan but he did explain about it when asked that he felt horrible disrupting church and being the center of attention there. How could the President not be the center of attention in a public church? Just another opinion

  230. “Well put, & I concur heartily. In my opinion, the Reformation is just now starting to catch up with the Enlightenment”

    Hmm. I had not thought of it like that before. That gives me much to ponder. Could it be the explosion of communication is giving us the venue to analyze the ideas, doctrines and results of the Reformation as a community? I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this, esp the Enlightenment.

  231. 56 years

    Thank you for telling us about Obama’s church attendance. It seems like there are some, like Mark Driscoll, who believe that they are in the position of judging his salvation. Driscoll tweeted about it today. Many do not know that there are many Neo Calvinists who believe that they have been given the right to judge salvation. May God forgive their foolishness.

  232. Numo, you’re on my heart no need to know the particulars.

    And, Evie wrote:

    Rotten
    Food

    Is this a double entendre? Well, we already know he can’t tell the difference between fruit and seed and whatever he’s, ahem, feeding, his swallow(ing) following, it is rotting contaminated with Dris coli.

    Sorry, couldn’t help myself.

  233. anon 1 wrote:

    Could it be the explosion of communication is giving us the venue to analyze the ideas, doctrines and results of the Reformation as a community? I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this, esp the Enlightenment.

    That’s the way I see it. The internet is every bit a history changer as was Gutenberg’s movable type printing press & the Venetian booksellers. The inquisition did its damndest to put the snafu on it, but to no avail. And the rest is as they say, history.

  234. Julie Anne

    Thank you for the correction. Late last night I went through and corrected most of the references to the identity of Tomczak’s alleged victim. I have to say, I am very concerned about being able to maintain her anonymity. One woman in my Bible study, who is not intimately aware of the situation, said her identity was obvious. But, we will do our best.

  235. @ dee:

    They shouldn’t be pleased, Dee. The article says the incidences happened 30 years ago and are using that as an excuse to minimize. They are more recent than that.

    I’d like to pass along info from Jeff, one of my blog readers, about CJ’s upcoming speaking engagements. Sending an e-mail or making a phone call is one way we can let our voices be heard.

    http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/01/22/who-is-going-to-blast-the-bullhorn-on-abuse-in-church/comment-page-1/#comment-7611

  236. Julie Anne

    We will post links tomorrow on how to contact sponsoring groups. Thank you for sending them to us.

  237. Deb wrote:

    I am still flabbergasted that certain Southern Baptists are mesmerized by CJ…Shame on them!

    I’ve always wondered how some SBCers could have such a cozy relationship with SGM. They just are so not Baptist. I guess its the calvinism (little “c”) thing.