@Eagle

Amusing? Perhaps not. But is it accurate?

SMG

My husband pays less than that to go to specialist medical conferences!

So, if I read their marketing hype correctly, you can’t be a “biblioally faithful, passionate believer” without their training? Odd how the church survived so long without them!

Now if I could only get my brain to stop going into convulsions at the thought of Jesus modelling complementarian relationships …

The Regurgence

Hmm …

http://theresurgence.com/2011/05/16/the-crisis-of-conference-christians

Perhaps the crisis of conference Christians was just that Driscoll saw some faces he recognized from conference to conference and that was solved by bigger conferences?

Deb,

I missed the blowup you mentioned, but I did find the kerfuffle at Vanderbilt this year interesting to observe. The school adopted an "all-comers" policy which had been on the books, but a lawsuit forced a review of the 100s of student groups to see if they were in compliance. Vanderbilt loathes its history in regards to segregation and doesn't want to be associated with any discrimination. Therefore they believe any student admitted to the university should be able to join any student organization affiliated with Vandy. No student can be barred on the basis of race, sexual orientation or gender from joining any group (Sororities & Fraternities are the only exception) and here's the kicker: once a member they must also be allowed to run for leadership positions. The school believes the student groups on campus should not discriminate against any member of their group from becoming a leader within that group, and if a group has in place a policy of discrimination in that regard, they are in violation of university policy.

 The uproar over the university taking steps to enforce their policy came largely from religious groups. Their main argument was largely surrounding the notion that a non-Christian (the Christian groups raised the strongest objections) could run for election within the group. The Christian groups said they agreed with the all-comers policy in that they welcome everyone to join, but they limit who can be a leader to only those students who are professing Christians, and in some cases only those individuals appointed to leadership by the national organization's headquarters. Any restrictions placed upon a group by the university was viewed as discriminatory and an effort by the school to target Christian groups and "religious freedom."

The university maintained that was not the case, that they would work with any group to help them understand and comply, but that they would would be making no exceptions to the all-comers policy. Groups who did not wish to comply were free to disagree, and could meet on campus, they but they would lose privileges as a university affiliated group. During the 3+ hour town hall meeting which I watched, Vandy officials took the time to clarify their policy and answer questions. The meeting was attended by students who were, for the most part, opposed to the school's policy, having judged it to be in violation of their religious rights. These students, in a show of solidarity, all came dressed in white shirts. While watching the discussion, it was interesting to observe, in my view, how closed minded the Christians were, how reluctant they were to adopt a non-discrimination policy. I also found it intriguing that none of the members of those Christian student groups came right out and admitted one of the reasons they couldn't comply is because they would not allow women members to run for positions of leadership within the student group – clearly discriminatory on the basis of gender. But the staff held their position. Any student can join any group and as a member they must be allowed to run for positions of leadership within the group, no exceptions.

Vandy staff expressed their trust in the students to elect members who would best work to serve the mission of the group, but the electoral process must be open, democratic, and available to any member. During the 3 hour town hall meeting a large group of the Christians in white shirts walked out in protest. It was obvious they were not interested in complying, which I found disheartening. I was reminded that it was that same attitude that prevailed during the time of segregation, and a similar walk out would have occurred over the issue of admitting blacks to the school and allowing them to join the student groups. Same thing, different day. Still a shame.

But kudos to Vanderbilt for sticking to their guns and for making no exceptions to their all-comers policy in the way other schools like Ohio State has done. Maybe its for this reason that CJ Mahaneys son Chad attends college on Ohio, so he won't be "sullied" by feminism, and can be a member of student religious group that doesn't have to allow women to run for positions of leadership. Just a hunch. But I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised, considering how militant the Mahaneys are about keeping woman subordinate to men within society. I'm sure they wouldn't want their son getting the wrong ideas in college, ideas that would undermine everything they have taught (brainwashed) him to believe.

Addendum per the Trinity:

“The three persons of the Godhead are all equal in power, glory, and righteousness, yet each is distinct with different roles. The Son submits to the Father, and the Spirit does the work made possible by the sacrifice of the Son.”

1. This roles thing sounds like modalism. This was ruled heretical centuries ago.
2. The Spirit only does work “made possible by [Jesus’] sacrifice.” So He didn’t have anything to do before the crucifixion (i.e., all those references to the “Spirit of God” in the OT are just made-up crap)?

I read the post to which WTH provided a link. There are several valid points in it, and in fact you see the same kind of thing over here in the UK; there’s a great temptation for us as believers simply to seek out experiences in christian meetings and conferences on this type of healing or that type of prophetic whatever. It’s certainly easy to go through the motions of one’s preferred brand of Christianity – be it sacramental, emotional, intellectual, or any combination of those or anything else – for years, and never actually become more like Jesus. Paul wrote about people who were always learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth, and he might also have described people who are always undergoing healing but never become whole.

Just one thing strikes me as odd, though, about the article.

I notice it’s written by a chap whose name rhymes with Park Fiscal. I can’t help wondering whether that’s the same Park Fiscal who so roundly dismissed the UK church four or five years ago for not having enough (or any) well-known young Biblical Bible teachers. Or who has built a multi-site weekly motivational speaking business (which trades under the name of “Mars Hill Church” or something similar) in which, rather than train up multiple Biblical Bible teachers, he has video-links set up so that everyone listens to him teaching them what the Bible Scriptures mean.

You cannot dedicate your life to creating a drone army of “believers” who cannot understand or read the Bible Scriptures for themselves, much less know the fellowship and leading of the Holy Spirit, without creating conference deadheads.

There are sad echoes here of Amnon, David’s son, who fell in “love” with his half-sister Tamar, played on her – and David’s – kind nature to manipulate her into being alone with him, then overpowered and raped her. (It’s in 2 Samuel, for those who want to check my arithmetic.) Then, as soon as he’d taken want he wanted from her, he hated her for it; common enough in self-centred or abusive individuals, and probably a projection of his guilt onto her. But it’s a sad state of affairs when you seek followers and then despise them.

Evie wrote:

I also found it intriguing that none of the members of those Christian student groups came right out and admitted one of the reasons they couldn’t comply is because they would not allow women members to run for positions of leadership within the student group – clearly discriminatory on the basis of gender.

I’d heard about these rule changes at Vandy but didn’t know all the specifics. Very interesting what doesn’t get reported in all the news stories. Thanks for sharing some of the details here, Evie.

Deb~

That is interesting…the change to “Jesus-Modeled Relationships”. The next thing will be Jesus-Saturated Relationships.

Gavin said~

“Maybe they should hold a special conference on how to comfort the grieving. A rather shocking tweet from RCSproul.”

oops–continuing…lol

When I first read that link I thought you meant RC sr…but I see it is jr who wrote the article.

Why are you shocked? That’s about par for him. I would be more shocked (but only a little) if his dad had written it.

Let’s see…the same RC Sproul Jr who was defrocked from his Presbyterian denomination for tax fraud. (Using some elses tax number, I think) I can remember reading stores of people moving across the country to be part of his cult church. Oh, and if you were not able to read his online bio before the Ligonier scandal, you were missing quite a read about the “white witch” who funded Ligonier in the early days. If I remember correctly her name was something like Doris Hooper or something. She has long since passed but wasn’t it lovely of him to refer to her as a white witch for supporting his family and giving his dad his start? Of course it all came down to scandal in living the high life off the donations to Ligonier. The most embarassing part was the grandson (Sprouls daughter and family who lived with them in their mansion) who had a webpage showing him guzzling alcohol and bragging about his Lexus and one day taking over the family business. Yep, thatgot taken down once the financial scandal became obvious.

Right after Jr was defrocked he was speaking on daddy’s conference stage and of course, he was welcomed with open arms to Doug Wilson’s CREC. Sproul Jr is doing all he knows how to do and was raised to do. Trying to make a living off Jesus.

Yes Anon 1.

I am not shocked that jr wrote that article. I would be shocked, say, if Dee or Deb wrote an article like that because I have read enough of them to know they would find that view horrendous. But if one has read not only about jr’s scandals, but his theology, one is not shocked.

Julie Anne, Yes, we should! Lookie there, you were close to get a picture. Ha! Thanks for sharing that. Yes, let’s get together. Contact me Joy7Joy@aol.com

@ Julie Anne:

Heresy only if they teach a hierarchical form of doctrine rather than a relational structure; the latter is the long-established doctrine of the Church. Gavin

Heresy, of course, is in the eye of the beholder. I myself think the Bruce Ware, et. al., ‘doctrine’ of the ESS, with it’s emphasis on Christ’s status below that of God comes pretty close to the line, if not going over. I say this because the whole point of the ESS is to say that women are to be subordinate to men just as Jesus is subordinate to God – if how they promote the relationship of of men and women is supposed to be, and this is the relationship of Jesus to God, it is hierarchical and therefore heretical.

Deb, anytime you need something on Mars Hill or Mark Driscoll you should ask Julie Anne and I. I’m sure we would enjoy doing that.

I am having a feeling Julie Anne and I would make a good team.

@ Deb:

@Anon 1

easily lured by Lotherios

Just want to take time out to acknowledge a turn of phrase the likes of which I have not seen since a B. Kliban drawing in the 1970s which bore the title “Cyril is pursued by savages.” But I digress.

Press on.

“Just want to take time out to acknowledge a turn of phrase the likes of which I have not seen since a B. Kliban drawing in the 1970s which bore the title “Cyril is pursued by savages.” But I digress.”

Hee Hee. Sproul Jr reminds me of Don Quixote, anyway. Ever see the pic of him in his kilt while expounding on various bottles of scotch in his bar?

@Dee

Well, perhaps once I get the old ST back up to speed, we can hold the Breadman’s 2013 Conference and discuss the details.

@Anon1
Actually, I have seen the photo you’re referring to. Unfortunately, the memory now so invoked has effectively ruined my holiday spirit. Humbug!

SMG

dee:

You’re right, but the root is exactly the same between the two. Unlike Sproul, I wouldn’t say it’s just me trying to put myself on the throne of my heart (aka. rebellion). That’s a very Western, limited, middle-class understanding.

Jesus tells us Sin is slavery. So whether I murder or hate in my heart, they are both symptomatic of the chains that are wrapped around man. Not everyone is Hitler, but we’re all sick with the same disease. Some are just much sicker and further along than others, some try and spread that disease.

“Not everyone is Hitler, but we’re all sick with the same disease. Some are just much sicker and further along than others, some try and spread that disease.
”

You may not have heard of the Holy Spirit? In your understanding I am wondering exactly what the Cross was for if we cannot live as new creatures in Christ NOW. Are you suggesting we can live with dark hearts now as professing believers and only live as Christ in eternity?

I am not even talking sinless perfection which is impossible but I am talking about hearts. Obviously we can have pure hearts because Jesus refers to those who do as being Blessed.

Anon1

Well, maybe I should take some more time to flesh everything out. I’m talking generally as capital-M Man. Yes, the Holy Spirit makes a huge difference! Yes the cross changes everything! We are united to Christ by His Spirit.

But it doesn’t do any good to pretend that this communion is perfectly realized in the here and now. I’m all about following Christ, being serious about the commands we receive on the Sermon on the Mount and that the Holy Spirit perfects us in love.

Doesn’t change the inward battle and imperfection of both will and action of man. We may have the cure (union with Christ) but we’re still recovering.

dee:

That’s just bad then. To ignore the victim and tend to the violator is just wicked. Not that one should get out the pitchforks and torches and destroy the violator, but certainly not coddle. Going with the illness metaphor, just because one is sick doesn’t mean you don’t quarantine or apply harsh tasting medicine. Paul wanted the guy sleeping with step-mom cast out, but not out of need for punishment, but so that he may return truly repentant. Which is not just a “I’m sorry for being a baddie, we’re cool right?”

What a cup of strangebrew this is.The theological differences of these 3 men are wide.Calvinism-Arminianism and pop biblo-psycho-babble from the same pulpit.All for 250$.Made in America.

c. 5th-6th c. A.D., the Athanasian Creed says (among other things

And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other; but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.

So yes, ESS is definitely heterodox at best.

A huge wake up call for me was reading Kevin Giles’ book about ESS and seeing that Bruce Ware and some other “scholars” had actually edited/twisted quotes from Athanasius in order to promote ESS as orthodox.

I double checked it and will never trust these so called “scholars” at SBTS again. It still amazes me they got by with it.

Cheryl Schatz did an entire DVD teaching on ESS and how it was being propagated by Ware, Denny Burk, etc.

http://www.amazon.com/Trinity-Eternity-Future-Explaining-Exposing/dp/B001ID8582

What is amazing is how close they get to Jehovah Witness teaching with it. And most Christianese cults tamper with the Trinity.

But it doesn’t do any good to pretend that this communion is perfectly realized in the here and now. I’m all about following Christ, being serious about the commands we receive on the Sermon on the Mount and that the Holy Spirit perfects us in love.

Doesn’t change the inward battle and imperfection of both will and action of man. We may have the cure (union with Christ) but we’re still recovering.”

here is my concern, Cal with the Reformed view. A great way to excuse even heinous sin is to teach folks their very existence is sin (Imputed guilt/total depravity/total inability). That they cannot help but sin 24/7. It is their natural state.

Scripture tells us to “take every thought captive” and that tells me that we can. There are tons of verses that tell us we can overcome with the help fo the Holy Spirit. We will never be perfect because we are born in corrupted bodies into a corrupted world. We are told to strive to be Holy. The Reformed view is that this is impossible.

I guess I have read one too many Reformers writing that they are Adam Lanza, too.If we are still “evil” long after salvation then what was the point of the Cross and REsurrection? Is it to be comfortable with our sin until judgement and chalk it up to: oh that is just the way we are? or is it to walk in the light with the spirit of truth helping us along the way? There are some who actually believe that Jesus obeys for us now because we have no ability to reason.

We have a lot of YRR guys running around saying they are horrible sinners. I do often wonder why that qualifies them for ministry. :o)

“Total Depravity, except in the most bastardized form, is not “my existence = sin,”

Cal, Logically the position of “total depravity” can be nothing else but your existence is sin. You are born “in sin” , totally unable and are guilty of Adams sin. It is just when we actually respond to what they are saying, they tell us we do not understand it. I hear that all the time from YRR/NC/Reformed folks.

It always sounds a lot better when it cannot be debated.

@ Cal:

Actually, sin is an archery term and means missing the mark. If you sin, you are not on target with God. We as humans have an “inclination” to sin (a disposition), but that mean we are constantly missing God. Christians have been described as having willing spirits and weak flesh.

Murders, Pedophiles and the rich rulers who oppressed are called evil. Think of Herod.

There is a wide gulf in the early believer’s understanding between a believer’s weak flesh and a murderer or political oppressor.

It is something Calvin messed up, years later. Our weaknesses won’t separate us from Christ and his Kingdom, but the evil – those who once had Christ, but late rejected him for worldly gain such as murder or rape will be rejected by Christ.

Hebrews fleshes this out well. Nothing (external) can separate us from God, but we can choose at any time to leave and walk to the dark side.

What so few average Christians (and those seeped in Calvinism) miss, is that once you are saved, the stakes are higher. Walk from your salvation, and Satan will have a heyday with your life.

Comparing a struggling believer to a predator pedophile in a church is useless (Calvinism lies on this one), the predator has turned himself over to Satan, the average believer who abhors this conduct has not. Could we go that way? not unless we, too, openly reject Christ for personal worldly lusts, something few believers would choose to do.

Our flesh is weak, yes, but that is more about living out Kingdomly lives, not doing the good we know ought to be done, giving into fear or annoyance rather that doing what would be difficult. This stuff, although we need to give it to God and die more to self, is forgivable.

Giving up on God in order to pursue evil desires – murder, sex (esp. with kids), gaining power and seeking to destroy any who threaten that power (King Saul, CJ Mahaney) are in a much more precarious position due to the CHOICES THEY MADE.

Don’t fool yourself with (gnostic) teachings, we DO have agency – God gave humans dominion over this earth from the beginning of creation. The boot out of Eden was a removal from God’s presence and the result was broken relationships (human – God, human – human, human – creation), but our job description on earth – dominion- was never removed.

Christ’s death restored the broken relationship between God and man. He also calls us to restore the broken relationship between humans, and humans with creation. He offers us his Spirit, he has completed the task. To refuse this, drop it, and go running after the broken things of the world is the unforgivable sin.

The average Christian fails every day (weak flesh), but the average Christian has not rejected the Holy Spirit.

Someone said it this way. If you sin, repent, if you cause others to sin, woe to you. That is why being a teacher is judged more harshly. The outcomes of sin matter A LOT to God. Being lazy is a personal failure, molesting a child wreaks a child’s life, so God will judge it more harshly.

Comparing a child’s lie about a stolen cookie to a pedophile’s sin and saying both deserve the same fate isn’t well supported. Here’s why: we have little info on Hell in the Bible (in fact the early church had no notion of it), what we glean is there is a Lake of Fire, there is a place outside the City of God, and there is the Hades – described in a parable of the Rich man and Lazarus and there is Sheol. The translations don’t always differentiate.

In Jesus’ day, and those after it, the immoral were the Rich. That seems unfair, however, to be rich in those days was equivalent being corrupt. In the Roman Empire, to have wealth and power meant getting in bed with Rome, something good Jews did not do. It is the case in many, many countries in the world today, that to be rich often means gaining it on the backs of the poor, so it is often very immoral to be rich. So, in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, the Rich man is right where the crowds expected him to be – in Hades. Lazarus is in the bosom of Abraham.

So are there levels to hell? Satan is thrown in the Lake of Fire at the end, viewed a annihilation. Others, who remain outside the City of God – where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth – may be in the same position as the Rich Man in the Lazarus story.

What about pedophiles? Try Matthew 18:6 or Mark 9:42 – where it says: “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.”

That may not sound like Hell, but if we go back to the OT, the deeps are where Hell was believed to be (Mesopotamian view), Fire and Brimstone under the Earth is a Greek take. In fact, throwing one to the deeps was equivalent to annihilation in OT parlance and I don’t think that is lost on Jesus followers.

One other point – Sheol, which was the Hebrew word for after-death residence, has been linked to untimely deaths. In other words, a child went to Sheol, or a solider, but those who died in old age rested with their fathers. The Jews viewed a wrongful/untimely death as something different, something needing God to help that person with – Jesus had a Sheol death.

So, in my observation: 1) Jesus treats different sins differently, 2) the afterlife for those not with Christ seems to have levels, or differences, that are not made clear to us 3) saying we all deserve what a pedophile deserves is shaky at best, and not clear the way the Bible talks about the grave – ignoring, of course, the fact many don’t subscribe to penal substitutionary atonement to begin with – if we keep it on the discussion of RC Sprol, those kid’s in Newtown went to Sheol, not “resting with the Fathers”, so there is an unresolved injustice there. For Christians, the final Judgment day will put that all right, vindication, etc…but that is a while off (since the Mayan’s didn’t get the date correct 🙂 ), in the meantime, saying they got what we all deserved is a lame argument, since the scriptures don’t even spell it all out.

If you really want to wrap your head around all this stuff, look up historical takes on Holy Saturday, to get an early church perspective on death, after-life, places soul’s rest, etc. And remember, our punishments are not in how we die (unless you are Herod or Jezabelle or someone God specifically damned), rather, where we end up. According to God, no one should kill anyone else, as we are all made in the image of God – so, no, we don’t deserve to be shot down in a blaze of bullets. The Calvinists are wrong, dead wrong.

RE: conferences

I wonder how many speakers will be serving up leftovers, repackaged for the occasion?

In the past, I attended some such conferences — so many times I’ve had the distinct impression the speaker is not all that prepared with their material. Almost like they forgot they had this gig lined up, and remembered at the last minute with barely enough time to at least scrounge up something to talk about. Or, they came across as very bored with their content.

All in all, I felt extremely ripped off. These conferences are not only expensive but entail a ton of life arranging to come to.

@ Big Blue Fan in Asia:
The lady at the gym let me stay past closing to watch the game (I don’t have a tv). We won. 😀

@ Anon 1:
I once attended SBTS. One of the reasons I left was the willingness of some on the faculty to promote heterodox (and in some cases, I think, heretical) teachings just to defend their complementarianism. A very disturbing turn of events, and disappointing that the administration hasn’t held them accountable.

I’m of the opinion that the power of complementarianism that stands behind certain men (Mahaney, Driscoll, Piper, Grudem) and women (Nancy Leigh DeMoss) and their organizations is being diffused, as well it should be. I agree with others here who contend the ESS was designed to prop up hierarchy (lets just call it that, shall we?) and is, in the words of Gilbert Bilezikian “Hermeneutical Bungee-Jumping.”

Hello hierarchicalists, Jesus set us free from the curse of the law. “Complementarianism” is just a man-made cover for the pathologies of the fallen nature. There’s no freedom from sin offered in the “doctrine” of the ESS, or conforming to the teachings of complementarianism. Its legalism, plain & simple.

@ Cal:

The Circus of American Christendom… I like that. ; )

Thankfully Christendom’s boundaries extend well beyond America. Though many American Christians don’t seem to realize that (exhibit A: all the “if we fall away then the light of the world is gone” rhetoric).

Cal, while you may see yourself as a man living in the modern day equivalent of a fallen empire, I see myself as a woman living in an amazing time in history, quite possibly on the cusp of a new awakening.

I tend to agree with Toynbee. When the “creative minority” is suppressed and their solutions to challenges ignored, then growth stops and deterioration sets in as things degenerate into the ways of the “dominant minority.” This is what happened inside the mini fiefdom of Sovereign Grace Ministries, led by a man who is not creative and admits to “never having had an original thought.” When a time of trouble came and he rejected any input that didn’t line up with his one-dimensional thought protocol, then its only been a matter of time before SGM, like Rome, crumbles.

But there’s a new wave of thinking that’s capturing the imaginations of people all over the place. And I think its a mistake to look inside the walls of the church for signs of progress. If I did that, and lacked perspective, I too would fall victim to a sense of decay and loss of hope, assuming as it were that I was standing in Charn, the bell had been rung, and I had better not lose track of the ring in my pocket.

No, a new age is dawning. Things are happening, and I’m excited. Its a great time to be a believer. I’m happy to see the fall of these Neoliths because its going to clear the way for a fresh wind of God’s Spirit to empower the true church!

Diane:

I think you’re reading too much into this post unless there is some crucial backdrop I’m missing. His point is that it should surprise anyone that there may/will be major sin in the Church. Not necessarily the elders, nor just the congregants, but amongst all of them. He also mentions that discipline is a factor. I don’t think he’s excusing gross sin, just being realistic about it occurring.

Evie:

The Empire I was referring to is my home country of the United States. Maybe we’re not reading the same newspapers.

Good article Daisy 🙂

Diane:

Shouldn’t 🙂

🙂

And it’s possible I am not reading too much into the article and the view expressed is that flippant, to use your word, about gross sin. Hope not.

If I should not be surprised by gross sins in the church, might not that possibly, over time, render me indifferent to gross sin?

No, a new age is dawning. Things are happening, and I’m excited. Its a great time to be a believer. I’m happy to see the fall of these Neoliths because its going to clear the way for a fresh wind of God’s Spirit to empower the true church!
~ Evie ~

I agree Evie. The old ways of thinking and believing since the time of Constantine are dying out. Their proponents are not going to go quietly either. They know full well that their enclaves are dwindling year by year, and they are desperate to hang onto what they’ve got.

“one blames the victim but oozes compassion for the perpetrator”
***********

i think an opportunity for 1 forgiveness that is the equivalent to 70×7 is quite tantalizing.

Makes you look good to yourself, your peers, and to God. Whether or not one admits this. A spiritul fast-forward, to jettison out of spiritual doldrums and anonymity.

I never said ‘all’ AA groups, but based on the reading I did several months ago, abuse and “blaming the victim” sounds pretty typical.

I know I get a heaping helping of “blame the victim” view from my AA brother, and I’ve never blamed him for his problems, even though much of them were brought on by his poor choices, which is not the case for me and the specific problems of mine I shared with him.

Rapes, fondling, etc, are common among AA members/ after AA meetings, from what I read – they even dub the fondling/ rapes “13 Stepping”.

Also, AA is not good at helping people stop drinking – they have like a 90%- some- odd failure rate, even according to one of their own studies (they hired some company to research it).

I’m a teatotler myself, so I don’t have a problem with alcohol, but there is a lot of info out there by people who left AA and discuss how abusive it is to people.

Stanton Peele is also a big AA critic.

But, as I learned from personal research, and having been subjected to it first hand by a family member who is in AA, 12 step programs are notorious for blaming the victim for their pain, even if they are not to blame.

Daisy – It sounds like some people who are AA regulars twist things in order to hurt others.

So very sorry to hear about your brother and what he’s done.

But I do know people who have truly been helped through AA. I also think that temptation is ever-present for people who are substance abusers, no matter how long they’ve been on the wagon/clean.

numo wrote:

Daisy – It sounds like some people who are AA regulars twist things in order to hurt others.
So very sorry to hear about your brother and what he’s done.
But I do know people who have truly been helped through AA. I also think that temptation is ever-present for people who are substance abusers, no matter how long they’ve been on the wagon/clean.

It’s a similar conversation as to the church, pedophilia in the church, and spiritual abuse in the church.

Yes, the church has done a lot of good, but there are also wolves in sheep clothing too, and downplaying or denying it is so doesn’t make it go away in the church any more than it does in any other group, such as AA.

I wish I could remember all the ex-AA blogs I went to, but I don’t feel like looking them all up.

Here’s one:
Stinkin’ Thinkin’

One of the ex-AA sites (maybe that one above, I don’t remember) is run by an ex AA woman who was in AA for years, and she is a lot like Deb and Dee at this blog: a crusader who publicizes the abuse that goes on at AA, and she helps people victimized by AA.

This woman I am thinking of who has an ex AA blog also has a radio show that is also broadcast online, on “Blog Talk Radio,” where she interviews people raped at AA meetings, or family members of people killed by AA members, and other crimes.

@ Cal:
What Calvin wrote matters little, it is how it is being lived out now that counts. Today, Calvinist leaning churches are calling everyone a sinner and flattening sin (meaning missing the mark) to make a pedophile equivalent with some who says something snarky about a pastor.

That is a huge problem. Holy Saturday is not hugely taught by some of those you listed, etc. you have to look at Eastern Orthodox and Catholic papers on it, but it is an interesting history. Our moder views on hell come largely from Dante (13th C. Catholic), not from the early believers. My issue with the Sprol post was his, and all the other Calvinistas scramble to be the first to say “every one of us deserves what happened to the kids at Newtown”.

Since, again, the mode of death is rarely something considered “deserved” in Church history, rather where one ends up is what is “deserved” (not sure if Calvin is specific on this), not how they got there (gun, fed to lions, etc.) the issue I take with these comments is, and I will repeat, early death. Many are saying, and you seem to be supporting the notion we all deserve what they got because we are sinful. There are major historical problems with that view

1) the early church’s roots were in 2nd temple judaism – they viewed untimely deaths differently than old age deaths – unjust vs. just

2) the method of death is not a major factor in the Bible, except when God is taking down a leader

3) Do we all deserve untimely deaths? For the wages of sin are death, and when Adam sins, it is written “on that day you will surely die”, the problem, of course is, Adam goes on (if you take it literally) to be the longest lived human ever – 900+ years, and dies of old age. Where, oh, where does the Bible say we all deserve untimely deaths for being sinners?

So, in conclusion, no, these guys are wrong, weather Calvin backed them on this or not, (and frankly any guy who puts someone else to death for not agreeing with him (Serveritus), is not worth my time, as he is no spiritual leader of mine), untimely deaths are not the wages of sin, they are tragedies that are:
a) a part of this broken world
b) a part of this broken world we, as Christians, are supposed to be salt and light to.

It would be a much wiser use of Piper’s platform if, instead of harking how we all deserve untimely deaths whenever a disaster occurs, he would use it to encourage Christians to better love their neighbour and be the salt and light (but that may make them busy and not able to go to his $300+ conferences, 4 or 5 times a year, so why would he bother?

Val:

You’re conflating tons of arguments. I said that Sproul didn’t have a single pastoral nerve in his post. How he phrased what he said was totally graceless.

Anyway, you’re mostly tilting at windmills here. I know Calvinists/Reformed who wrote in a completely different vein than what you’re describing. Don’t poison the well with labels.

As for views of hell and the early Church, read some comments by Minucius Felix and Tertullian. They had rather graphic imaginations.

Cal,

Yes, but if you keep quoting, he undoes it by next stating how great Mary is…

“What had been laid to waste in ruin by this sex,” Tertullian wrote, “was by the same sex re-established in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight.”

He attempts to match Eve to Mary as Christ to Adam here.

John wrote:

The lady at the gym let me stay past closing to watch the game (I don’t have a tv). We won. 😀

Oh, John. You are so mean! I just watched the game on tape. (insert crying face here) Congratulations to you! Glad you were able to “borrow” a tv and watch it live.

Deb wrote:

I pull for the other BLUE team – Duke. I think they are going to have an excellent year.

Yes, they already beat us earlier this year. And I never thought I’d be able say this, but . . . just for you, Deb . . . let me try . . .GO dUKe! 🙂

Muff Potter wrote:

No, a new age is dawning. Things are happening, and I’m excited. Its a great time to be a believer. I’m happy to see the fall of these Neoliths because its going to clear the way for a fresh wind of God’s Spirit to empower the true church!
~ Evie ~
I agree Evie. The old ways of thinking and believing since the time of Constantine are dying out. Their proponents are not going to go quietly either. They know full well that their enclaves are dwindling year by year, and they are desperate to hang onto what they’ve got.

Muff / Evie – I’m sure you’ll both be immensely relieved to know that I agree too.

🙂

Er – but seriously now, I have heard a number of commentators use the word “reformation” to describe what God is now doing in the church. And I think they’re right. Not only that, but I think the Resurgence [sic] of hard-line neo-Calivinoid fundamentalism is a counter-reformation.

Much could be said, but Lesley is throwing me off the Mac on the (reasonable) grounds that I said I was going to the gym two hours ago.

Val:

Thank you for correcting me on the Tertullian quote.

Now we are a ways away from what we were originally talking about. My original corrective is that Calvinism is a very wide label and you can’t damn everyone under a label for one guy. I don’t think even Keller, head of TGC, would ever write something like this. Did you know NT Wright is a Calvinist? It’s a very wide label.

Again, I’m not defending Sproul’s presentation, or even some of the content, only the nugget of truth about the universality of sin.

“Did you know NT Wright is a Calvinist? It’s a very wide label.”

Hee Hee. He is also a conservative and a liberal. I have seen some claim he was not a Calvinist. I think the whole point with Wright is he disdains the labels. You might want to say he agrees with Calvin on some things. Don’t we all.

Here you go, Gavin.

Lots more to read for you. Just the facts-(if you really wish to know and not merely belittle).

http://www.tomandrodna.com/CR_2005_02027/

And this-

http://www.newwest.net/index.php/city/article/9225/C136/L136/

You don’t seem to understand a lot of what the Reformed stream has taught outside some of the pop form that you can see in the Circus of American christendom which is really just hyper-calvinism.

“I really don’t want to have to type out and educate you on this. If you want a better idea, go read Calvin’s Institutes or some of the confessions (I recommend Heidelberg catechism and second Helvetic confession). I wouldn’t even consider myself Reformed except maybe in a loose way and so I’m not saying everything you find in Calvin is golden. He does have his moments though”

Cal, Val’s earlier comment was excellent. After reading it, I am a bit shocked you think you need to “educate” her. You might disagree with her representation of Calvinism but quite frankly, she has done her homework.

Do you notice how your comments tend to back your position up with Creeds or writings of people? See, I would argue the Heidlburg Confession is dripping in determinism. But I don’t want to, that is not the point. I have read the Institutes and find most of it appalling and am thrilled I do not know that God whom I believe is a short walk to Allah.

It is impossible to discuss scripture with a Calvinist because of the Augustinian filter they bring to the table. The common words we use are defined totally different.

What thrills me is that more and more scholarly information is coming out about the problems with the Calvin/Augustine ST filter from EX Calvinists.

You have tried to make the argument that what we are seeing today from the YRR is not real Reformed. I beg to differ. it is more real than what we have historically seen since the Puritians. Historically you see from history that the purer forms “practiced” tend to die out and a softer gentler Calvinism/Reformed will emerge for a while that keeps it from going to it’s logical conclusions we saw with it’s practice in Europe, Early America, South Africa, etc. It either dies out or goes more liberal. Read history and see.

” disagree that Al Mohler is “very well educated”.”

I agree, Eagle. It is a very narrow education for a seminary president. There are faculty who are much better educated than him.

The reason the “genius” label was given is because he was chosen to be President at age 33. I believe it was more political in nature and I do think Mohler is brilliant in strategic sort of way. Very political. I also think giving him that much power so young is one reason we see all the problems and arrogance now. He was not mature enough to handle it and now he thinks he has the right to say some people should be “marginalized” in the SBC for daring to put forth a another view from Imputed guilt. His followers made much of calling them Pelagian/semi Pelagian heretics. Mohler even said their views leaned that way while he is busy hanging out and bringing to SBTS such doctrinal luminaries as Mahaney who think 3 year olds who were molested should be forced to forgive their tormentor. After all, they are both just as evil, right?

Kind of shocking an employee of the SBC would say such “marginalizing” things about his learned colleagues. But why not? They have been grooming him for pope since he was 33. Now he thinks he is. And he is the pope of the SBC.

Mahaney often commented on tweets and at conferences about Mohler’s geinus and brilliance . . . amazing how a few well placed people can scratch each other’s backs and make something that isn’t appear as if it IS.

Anon 1 – wondering if you are making your way through that book we linked to? I am to chapter 18. It is fascinating to me as I have never found so many explanations about my concerns documented so completely in one place. I’m even reading through all the footnotes and finding them very helpful as well. I actually want to get a hard copy of it so I can mark it up.

Gavin~

“I suspect you could start a fight in an empty house.”

Gavin, you are funny. Why? Because I questioned your links? 🙂

“I didn’t ‘pick’ the websites as such. I saw the first one on Sproul which referred to the Wilson one. I submitted both.”

You chose them to post here. How is that not picking? When I was researching Wilson, I read countless sites. I picked the sites to post here last summer when TWW did their story (not the first ones I saw) that were not so much emotionally charged, (and there are many of those) but factual.

“Obviously, these cases might be better known in the USA but I was shocked by them. That leads to your ‘edifying’ remark. Of course that was not what I was suggesting. Similarly the idea that I was going to use them to somehow belittle – What? Who? – is ridiculous.”

You wrote “Dearie Me!” That is belittling, imo, unless you always use that phrase in your every day conversation.

“On the other hand, you’ve demonstrated your own fine ability to do so yourself.”

Nope—I do not accept that. I am not belittling anyone. I am providing better links for you without a “Dearie Me!” added to them. They are more edifying, as that is important to you, and less emotionally charged.

“PS. I read through your links. Apart from the benefit of reading the court record, they demonstrated a degree of vindictiveness in the commentators remarks.”

In your opinion, you mean. How horrible to read something with a degree of vindictiveness in it. 🙂 Maybe people are shocked and sickened. Maybe they are disgusted and express that.

It should also be stated that Wade Burleson, who deb and dee post for the sunday E-church, is Calvinist. It’s a wide label. It’s a strawman to say all Calvinists are teaching pedophiliac rape is equivalent to lying.

An interesting selection of sources on abuse from your favourite people.

http://www.whitehorseinn.org/blog/2012/12/30/whi-1134-sexual-abuse-the-gospel-of-grace/

Gavin

Cal,
I couldn’t care less what Pastor Burleson’s beliefs are. He’s a kind and good man. In my book, deeds count way more than beliefs.

” In my book, deeds count way more than beliefs.
”

Me Too! Wade has put it on the line for those who have been abused and victimized.

There are many who believe what is considered the orthodox truth who are wolves. So what do we do with those “right beliefs”?

Anon 1 wrote:

The whole point is that salvation is NOT complicated. We have complicated it with all our ST and experts from history.

Anon1,

Sorry, I think I missed something along the line. What is ST?

@ Daisy:

Daisy, Thanks for the shout out. I wrote that article for exactly the reason you guys are talking about. Some (though certainly not all) in the conservative Reformed camp began “re-imagining” the Trinity a few decades ago specifically to prop up complementarianism. And to put a better face on it, they’re now acting as if this has always been the classic understanding of it. The above description of the Trinity from the Resurgence website is a perfect example of the pretense that ESS is nothing new.

After talking to a lot of people about it, however, I’m convinced that there’s a huge contingent of faithful Christians that see right through this. It may remain a celebrity movement for a little while longer, but I’m dubious that it will have any lasting impact.

It is almost as if some Regurgence trolls have deliberately hijacked this blog. It clearly started out as a legitimate discussion of Regurgence 2013, et al, and now it’s gone on a rabbit trail about Doug Wilson, RCS, Jr., who is or is not a Calvinist, paedophilia, ad nauseaum. The fact is, if you have followed Driscoll at all, you will discover that he is not a “hyper-Calvinist” and actually has leveled some of his most biting invective towards hyper-Calvinists. He does not condone paedobaptism at all. He has declared that Spurgeon has been his greatest influence (along with Chris Rock and Billy Graham), so go figure. And save the lambasting of Wade Burleson for another thread – it has no place on this one. Perhaps the last few commenters should actually read Deb’s post above.

>rant over<

“When Mohler first became president of SBTS, didn’t he fire a professor who was just a semester away from retiring because of some doctrinal disagreement? Because if he did, I don’t think this marginalizing thing is something he’s, er, grown into as power has consumed him. It sounds like it has always been part of the Mohler package.”

Well, lots of people were booted. There are websites that list the folks. You might be thinking of Paul Debusman:

http://mainstreambaptist.blogspot.com/2007/09/whatever-became-of-paul-debusman.html

@ Beakerj:

Sorry to hear that it is difficult to broach this subject. It is having a different effect on me. I find it enlightening and freeing. I don’t know that I agree with every word, but I probably wouldn’t agree with every/ word of any one I read.

Just read at your own pace. There is a lot to take in.

No, we don’t need another conference. What we need is ordinary Christians serving God and loving their neighbors consistently where they are in their everyday mundane lives. Conferences generally promote the opposite of that and raise unrealistic expectations, followed by the inevitable letdown for most. The Christian life becomes equated with the spectacular, with greatness, and often with worldly success. Just look at how much of the second video clip above echoes the themes of a Horatio Alger American success story.

God’s grace is present to all who ask, whatever their station or situation. And scripture demonstrates to us that the weak and the outcast and the poor are a particular concern of God’s. I wish these conference organizers would read a bit of Frederick Buechner, or better, Shusako Endo’s, works, particularly “Wonderful Fool.” God’s strength is made perfect in weakness, not in hype.

American evangelicalism largely lacks a theology and an ecclesiology for the ordinary.

Appropos of C&H anyone else heard that there’s a documentary on Bill Watterson that may get some kind of release in 2013? If we’re going to talk about derailing threads a gratuitous reference to Calvin & Hobbes should do the job. 🙂

The status of quite a few books in the NT has been disputed, including Jude, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Revelation and, as mentioned earlier, James.

And all of the objections I’ve read about make a great deal of sense to me, especially regarding Jude and Revelation. Jude refers to non-canonical works that are a bit weird (cf. the names of the Egyptian magicians) and is on the whole pretty cryptic and (imo) weird.

As for Revelation, I think it has some truly sublime passages, but for the most part is ultra-cryptic and sometimes chilling (like the part where the martyrs demand blood). It’s an extremely problematic text and I wonder if it was truly understood in its own time.

Gavin~

You crack me up. 🙂

numo, yeah. I first heard that there ways of interpreting Revelation besides futurist/dispensationalism from a Pentecostal youth pastor. I was grateful to have heard there were other ways of interpreting apocalyptic literature in my teens. Other folks I know were steeped in the futurist approach and didn’t hear there were even alternatives until they’d bailed on Protestantism altogether.

@ WTH & Numo:

Yeah…count me in as another one who’s unsure that Dispensationalism (at least in its present Left Behind-esque form) is doing Christendom any favors. Sometimes the theology looks a bit too much like a video game to take seriously.

Though I’m not sure I’d equate Dispensationalism with all futurism. Unless my definition of futurism is wrong (futurism = everything that’s not preterism)?

Hester, it’s ture there are people who subscribe to dispensationalist theology but are not futurists on apocalyptic literature. The historicist position is still an option. A lot of Calvinists in the US tend to be historic postmillenial if memory serves (and it may not but I heard it from Steve of Triablogue quite some time ago and I’m willing to trust he knew what he was talking about when he mentioned this years ago).

I’m pretty opposed to modern futurist interpretation of apocalyptic literature. To me it’s nothing more than a rationale for the paranoia of American Christians left and right who dread that the other people will get too much political power. That’s concern enough without having to warp apocalyptic literature out of it’s very “then” context and concerns to tell people who they have to vote for now.

Some view Revelation as a description of the historic church and that’s neither futurism or preterism. Some read Revelation as an allegory of moral conflict that is not necessarily even anchored to any specific time or place. There are a lot of schools of thought on the book.

WTH,

As a Dispensationalist I heartily agree with your criticism on the “for me” interpretation of Revelation, et al. The thing with Revelation when viewed through a Dispensational lens is, it still isn’t for me, that is for any Christian living in this age. The mark of the Beast does not enter the picture until mid way through the seven year Tribulation period, which no Christian alive today will be in, so while it isn’t for the first recipients personally, it also isn’t for any Christians in this dispensation either, but for a future group of faithful believers. This gets lost when sensationalism is introduced and a “for me” attitude is assumed. There are lots of people out there who abuse prophecy by sensationalizing it and using it to titillate. According to Dispensationalism, no Christian today will ever know who the Antichrist is nor will they ever see what the mark of the Beast would actually turn out to be. Anything suggested is mere speculation, and irresponsible and leads to just the kind of conclusion you were led to. Prophecy of any age was not given for our entertainment but for God’s glory when it is fulfilled inasmuch as He knows and has declared the end from the beginning.

Our job is to seek the things that are above, where Christ is, not concern ourselves with how or when prophecy is to be fulfilled. Failure to adhere to this rule has led to such egregious errors as date setting, which has obviously been a predictable epic fail. No self respecting Dispensationalist would set a date and the credible ones warn against it, yet we see it all the time. It’s sensational and titillating and of the flesh. 88 Reasons why Christ will Return in 1988!!!!! Oh brother.

@ Anon 1:
“You have tried to make the argument that what we are seeing today from the YRR is not real Reformed. I beg to differ. it is more real than what we have historically seen since the Puritians. Historically you see from history that the purer forms “practiced” tend to die out and a softer gentler Calvinism/Reformed will emerge for a while that keeps it from going to it’s logical conclusions we saw with it’s practice in Europe, Early America, South Africa, etc. It either dies out or goes more liberal. Read history and see.”

Well stated Anon 1, well stated.

I would add… to the point that the members of those liberal denominations would be shocked to know their founders were a lot more like the YRR leaders than their own pastors, not due to being “a long time ago” but due to the literal interpretation of ‘total depravity’.

anonymous wrote:

This gets lost when sensationalism is introduced and a “for me” attitude is assumed. There are lots of people out there who abuse prophecy by sensationalizing it and using it to titillate.

Prophecy Porn for the Pious?

According to Dispensationalism, no Christian today will ever know who the Antichrist is nor will they ever see what the mark of the Beast would actually turn out to be.

Because God will beam them up before anything bad could personally happen to them. Saw this dynamic at work with “Christians for Nuclear War” in the Seventies.

WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:

A lot of people don’t want to run with the idea that the variants of the number of the beast point to Nero because then Revelation stops being a book that’s “for me”….

And that “I Am Living In The Prologue To Left Behind — Isn’t It EXCITING?”

The possibility of connecting the mark of the beast to the symbolic association of observing Passover as a mark on the right hand is not something I see people doing at a lay level…

And that the repetition of plagues — seven trumpets, seven thunders, seven seals, etc — might be the classical Hebrew literary trope of parallelism for emphasis, instead of a chronological checklist (check… check… check…).

The subject came up a couple years ago on Internet Monk, where Chaplain Mike chimed in that it might be due to the Industrial Revolution (which was superseding the Age of Reason about the time Darby came up with “the Secret Rapture”). That the mindset had become one “of wheels and metal” and the Bible was viewed as an engineering manual/instruction book of Fact, Fact, Fact. (Check… Check… Check…)

After all, what if the mark of the beast somehow turned out to not be some chip implant but turned out to be being able to buy on credit?

Funny you should say that, WTH. I remember a credit card commercial on TV some years ago. It was the checkout line at a busy store, done as a Busby Berkely musical-dance number, with all the Shiny Happy People swiping their cards in sync to the music — until one Goldsteinist Traitor Thought-Criminal pulls out a wallet instead of The Card and tries to pay in cash. Dance, music, everything stops DEAD while the Goldsteinist Traitor Thought-Criminal fumbles with his cash under the dirty looks of all the Shiny Happy People. Finally the intestinal obstruction clears and the Shiny Happy People brandish their Cards and resume the dance number.

Every time I saw that commercial, I wanted to overlay an ending voice-over by James Earl Jones or Morgan Freeman — “And no man could buy or sell except he had the Mark of the Beast.”

I don’t really have a view about the end times stuff, except to say that I don’t think anyone but God knows, and I don’t see anything of value in trying to figure it out – as if you could, anyway! Pre-trib, post-trib, amillenial, Pre-millennial, etc etc – just another way to label and alienate brothers and sisters from each other. Who cares, and what difference does it make?

@ Eagle:

Thanks for that link, Eagle. It looks like he has a new book out.

@ Bridget:
Hey Bridget – I’m really liking the tone of this book, it’s just that I find even the idea of the calvinist position infinitely depressing & it’s what really tormented me when my Mum was dying..so I just take it slow….I’ll get there, or maybe just build some kind of den under the furthest corner of my bed 🙂

Quite a few years ago I set out to decide for myself on the end times rapture doctrine. The Bible’s ‘apparent’ contradictions proved to be too much for me so I read other’s works on pre,mid, and post.
While studying each one, each one seemed correct. I did finally have to throw my hands up in the air and say, I just don’t have a clear opinion on it. Each view has a root theology or doctrine that affects each conclusion.
I still find it comical to reminisce the chapel scenes of my non Calvinist Baptist school in the Pacific NW when our sweaty southern Baptist shouting guest preacher would spit out “Doanchya’ wanna get say’yuvd, and escayup the tribulashiun!?!” while my friend and I from the Christian Reformed church would look at each other and smirk about how we’re going through it anyway, and since we were elected anyway, what’s to listen to here?
As far as my own studies go on Calvinism today, I am not a Calvinist but not quite an Arminian either. I do not believe in election but I do believe in everlasting security. So tribulation or no, no matter.

“…one blames the victim but oozes compassion for the perpetrator.But I see this thing a lot among Christians.”

I’ve been pondering this lately. My thinking is that this appeals to the people who don’t want to take responsibility for their own wrong doings to others. For the ignorant, they have been brainwashed into this kind of thinking.This mindset permiates our society.

I do believe that this whole thinking began with the sociopaths,narcs,etc.Being able to munipulate others into thinking that the victim doesn’t deserve compassion but contempt. They are the real “victims” so they are the ones who deserve compassion and forgiveness even though they have never shown remorse or compassion in their life. The whole mindset of someone showing compassion to the perp than the victims is completely delusional and warped…

As to the end times discussion. Please. LaHaye will never be able to spend the billions he made romaticizing an Indiana Jones style left behind from the rapture in installments for 20 bucks a pop. He should have named it: Adventures with the Anti Christ.

That was a very low point for Christianity in America.



To join in with the straw poll, to the degree that I care about millennialness, I’m an amillennialist. I should probably clarify, since I bet there are as many types of amillennialism as there are amillennialists to amillennialise them. I believe the kiloyear referred to in Revelation does not refer to a literal kiloyear but rather to the church age we’re living in. I know, of course, that many good people believe differently, and I wouldn’t go to war over it.

One of the best observations I’ve heard on millennialism was from Ern Baxter, oddly enough, who proposes (slightly tongue-in-cheek, I should add) a variant he called pan-millennialism. This is the belief that it will all pan out in the end.

Gavin,
I was genuinely moved in the heart with Sorley Maclean’s poem. Thanks for sharing it!

Dee–
“Where does everyone fit in the “last days” paradigm?”

I fit into the paradigm of living each day with an eye to using my talents to leave the world a more peaceful & cleaner place, making room for happiness & relaxation along the way.

Time spent pontificating the cosmic future is time wasted (beyond a few minutes of honest entertainment value as relief from the burden and pain of life). The “God” factor makes it no less wasteful.

I used to be very intrigued by it all when I was a kid. Sort of like, “You mean there’s more to this than the boring & corny sunday school material? Science fiction become fact?!? Wow!!” I had a plan to put all my stuffed animals in a big trash bag and keep it by my bed, so that if I felt a sudden pulling upword in the night I could grab it and take them all with me.

And then I heard the 1988 guy in person present his research a few days before it was all supposed to happen. How exciting the idea was — all my personal problems at the time (which were heavy) would be instantly resolved! I was pretty excited at the prospect.

And then some years later I heard my then-pastor give his Revelation message, in which he presented his stunning conclusions which every other “biblical scholar” missed. He served up this sermon at least 6 times a year.

And then I realized how pointless it all is. As pointless as the hundreds of hours I volunteered to keep the machine of church running, and then it died. Kaput.

I’ve further realized that I can spend my life doing things that have the appearance of bearing the God stamp of approval, but which are of very little to no consequence. While being very unhappy in the process. And then I die. A life lived on principle, regardless of how worthwhile it was and how lacking in happiness. What’s the point of that?

elastigirl – I hear you!

btw, I think this is what happens: Christ returns. [the end]

Hester wrote:

“Christians for Nuclear War”? Oh dear.

No skubalon. That was the attitude I picked up from End-Time-Prophecy fanboys in what was essentially the mid-Cold War period.

1) In the mainstream, Superior Intellects were all lecturing us about the Utter Certainty of Human Extinction before the Year 2000 due to the Inevitable Global Thermonuclear War. It’s All Over But The Screaming.

2) Hal Lindsay interpreted ALL the plagues of Revelation as Nuclear Weapons Effects and Aftereffects, based on his FACT (not theory) that Revelation was God essentially showing John a movie of the 1970s EotW and leaving John to describe it as best he could.

3) Put the two together and you get Christians for Nuclear War. It’s Coming, It’s Inevitable, Gog & Magog are the USSR, COMMUNIST China are the Kings of the East, It’s Prophesied, It’s Prophesied…

4) “GOD’S JUDGMENT FOR AMERICA’S SINS SITS READY AND WAITING IN THE NUCLEAR MISSILE SILOS OF THE SOVIET UNION!!!!” — actual radio preacher of the period

5) But fear not, if you are REALLY Saved God will Rapture you up to Heaven as the first ICBM warheads cut atmosphere over their targets and their thermonuclear detonation sequences begin. Look Up, For Thy Redemption Draweth Nigh.

Need I say just how hopeless and flat-out DANGEROUS that attitude is?

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Hester wrote:
“Christians for Nuclear War”? Oh dear.
No skubalon. That was the attitude I picked up from End-Time-Prophecy fanboys in what was essentially the mid-Cold War period.
1) In the mainstream, Superior Intellects were all lecturing us about the Utter Certainty of Human Extinction before the Year 2000 due to the Inevitable Global Thermonuclear War. It’s All Over But The Screaming.
2) Hal Lindsay interpreted ALL the plagues of Revelation as Nuclear Weapons Effects and Aftereffects, based on his FACT (not theory) that Revelation was God essentially showing John a movie of the 1970s EotW and leaving John to describe it as best he could.
3) Put the two together and you get Christians for Nuclear War. It’s Coming, It’s Inevitable, Gog & Magog are the USSR, COMMUNIST China are the Kings of the East, It’s Prophesied, It’s Prophesied…
4) “GOD’S JUDGMENT FOR AMERICA’S SINS SITS READY AND WAITING IN THE NUCLEAR MISSILE SILOS OF THE SOVIET UNION!!!!” — actual radio preacher of the period

You know what’s funny HUG? There is a very little known non celebrity Dispensational pastor in New England I have corresponded with once or twice who said he was very leery of ever calling any calamity God’s judgment. His view was we live in a fallen world where bad things are going to happen until Jesus comes again and that is just par for the course. I think he is right about that.

Unfortunately, what you are describing is far more typical.

@ HUG:

Isn’t it funny how Lindsey-style Dispensationalism can just morph to fit the current news environment. I bet the “kings of the east” = Ahmadinejad and Khamenei now.

Are we all Bimillenial? One thing we know for sure is it’s been about 2000 years now and counting.
@ gavin white:
A Gaelic Happy New Year for Gavin!
Bliadhna  mhath ur!

From Calum and Rory MacDonald:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rTjqWjA5Ys&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Da Mhile Bliadhna  (Two Thousand Years)
Fo na gealachean
Air rathad da mhile bliadhn’
Co chreideadh na dh’ fhairich sinn
‘S na chunniac sinn ri ar linn
Dh’ fhas am fasach suas
Far an do chuir sinn siol ar naire
Dlieab mor nan daoine
An t-acras is am pathadh
Anns an aineolas
Chaidh ar gairdeachas air chall
Da mhile bliadhna
Air an rathad lethainn mhall
Tha mi direadh a’ chnuic as aird’
Airson sealladh, dhan an talamh
Air cul a’ ghlinne waobh eile thall
Air sraidean baile a mhaireas
An la nach criochnaich is nach gluais
Tro na h-aireamhean
Mar fharadh theid sinn suas
Anns an dealachadh
Atharraichidh sinn an am priobadh suil
Chorus:  Thoir dhuinn an aireamh nuadh
Na laithean buan

–oOo–

Below many moons
On a two thousand year old road
Who could have believed all that we have seen
And suffered in our generation
The wilderness has grown
Where we have sown the seeds of our shame
Hunger and thirst
The legacy of our population
In our ignorance
Our joy has lost direction
Two thousand years
On the slow broad way
I am climbing up the highest hill
For a sight of the landscape
Behind the other side of the valley
On the streets of the everlasting city
Day will not end, time will not shift
Up through the numbers
We will rise like stepping on a ladder
In the parting
We will be transformed in the blink of an eye
Chorus:  Give us the new number
The eternal days

Dave AA
Thanks for the good wishes and the Runrig song!

Gavin

Gavin, You’re welcome! I’ve started taking classes to learn that “Auld” language.
Beakerj, the Con squared people could then put out a blockbuster movie: “Conned!”

Muff Potter wrote:

Back in the early to mid 70s, prophecy was all the rage with the Calvary Chapel set. Chuck Smith could pack them in and hold them in thrall just like C3PO regaling the ewok kids.

Which is a real kicker when you realize that Chuck Smith HATED Star Wars. Judging from his Seventies radio sermons, CS had a pathological hatred for anything to do with Star Wars.

Even back then, Smith, Hal Lindsey, and Chuck Missler were all bosom buddies in the prophecy racket, and as far as I know, they still are.

I’ve experienced Hal Lindsay, and know about Chuck Smith, but who is Chuck Missler?

And which one(s) of them invested all the $$$$$$ from End Time Prophecy bestsellers in long-term securities?

Chuck Missler is another Dispensational “prophecy expert” like Hal Lindsey.

I grew up with Hal Lindsey as a ‘theologian’ to be listened to. His books were on our coffee table. I never read them, but with my mom, I didn’t really have to. This teaching was responsible for a great deal of my fear as a child. My mom is (as far as I know since we don’t talk anymore) still a great fan as well as receiving the Missler’s newsletter (which she used to send to me). And let’s not forget Jack and Rexella van Impe……sigh.

Being raised in it, I used to be into it as well. I don’t have the stomach for it anymore. When Missler devoted one whole newsletter to attacking Eugene Peterson and The Message – calling it blasphemous, that was a big step for me recognizing the warped perspective these guys – and those who follow them – have.

To be honest, there are still some vestiges of fear from that teaching lingering in the corners of my soul. Sigh. The detox process can take a long time. I’m finding that I’m still dismantling things… There was a two year period where I could not even read the bible because all I heard were the voices of fear, condemnation and accusation that I grew up with and that I got in the cult of a church I was in. When I did start to read it again, it was the Message – it had a completely different cadence than what I grew up on which helped quell the triggers. I can read any translation now without flashbacks, but the memories will always be there.

Jeannette Altes wrote:

I grew up with Hal Lindsey as a ‘theologian’ to be listened to. His books were on our coffee table. I never read them, but with my mom, I didn’t really have to. This teaching was responsible for a great deal of my fear as a child.

Only a “theologian to be listened to”, Jeanette? I’ve seen Hal Lindsay as the Fifth Evangelist, close to the Fourth Person of the Trinity. It’s Prophesied, It’s Prophesied…

And a Bible only 3 1/2 books long: Daniel, Revelation, the “Nuclear War Chapter” of Ezekiel (the half), and Late Great Planet Earth. Bible Studies(TM) where the only book ever opened was the last of these 3 1/2. It’s Prophesied, It’s Prophesied….

Mix in a borderline-Aspie’s ultra-literalism and a Twilight Sparkle-level runaway worst-case imagination and, well, once you’ve been assimilated into the First Church of Borg, it takes a LONG time to come back.

Hi Michael,
Didn’t Jesus say “…They have their reward…”?

Free wrote:

I kind of got a chuckle when reading the blog and the comments. Just interesting and thought it would go great with this post.
http://modernreject.com/2012/02/mark-driscoll-is-my-new-best-friend/#comment-14611

“My new best friend” or “My Edward Cullen — Sparkle Sparkle Sparkle SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!”?

@ Free:
I sent and read the Mark Driscoll article. Here is a comment that followed it (written by a woman who attends Mars Hill)

“The church is large, so it is set up in community groups. I have had my community group call out sin in my own life. In a time when I was suffering from cancer and undergoing chemotherapy, I was treating my husband disrespectfully. The rest of the world told me I was justified in it. Even my medical team told me I was justified in it. My community group, however, called me out. And it hurt. Heck, yes, it hurt. SIN SHOULD HURT!”

Yes. Yes. That is right. At Mars Hill respecting the husband is the most important thing in the world. Never never disrespect the husband.

I’m glad there will be a Resurgence 2013. We simply cannot get enough of the “respect the husband” teaching.

Anyone not sure what “overspiritualizing” looks like?

“In a time when I was suffering from cancer and undergoing chemotherapy, I was treating my husband disrespectfully.”