"It doesn’t help a leader to ignore offenses and conflicts and sweep them under the proverbial carpet. Sooner or later they will return in one form or the other and cripple your leadership effectiveness."
Update 12/28 9:00 AM: Please see more information on the author of The Offended Brother -Dave Kraft – at the end of the post.
The New Year is right around the corner, and along with it come a variety of resolutions… The Resurgence website may provide a glimpse into the New Year's resolutions that Mark Driscoll and leaders in the Mars Hill satellite churches may be making for 2013.
A recent post called The Offended Brother features some godly wisdom from Dave Kraft, Leadership Development Pastor at Mars Hill Orange County. Dave is a seasoned Christian leader who served with The Navigators for 38 years and has worked as a ministry coach. He has also authored several books including: Leaders Who Last and Mistakes Leaders Make, which may be purchased on The Resurgence website. You can read more about Dave Kraft here.
As our readers know, this year has been tumultuous for Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church. One only has to read the Wikipedia article on Mars Hill to realize that something is terribly amiss. Here is an excerpt from the section on criticism:
"Some have criticized the church for its harshness in dealing with dissent within its leadership, citing as an example an incident during the church reorganization in 2007 where two elders disapproved of and suggested revisions to a draft version of the rewritten bylaws, which they viewed as consolidating power in the hands of Mark Driscoll and his closest aides. Both elders were subsequently disciplined and fired shortly thereafter. Church leadership instructed members of the congregation to shun the two former elders as unrepentant. Additionally, members who have openly questioned or dissented with Mars Hill leaders have been asked to leave the church. This policy of church discipline was discussed during a lecture given on April 20, 2009 by Mark Driscoll for The Gospel Coalition.
In early 2012 the church once again became a source of controversy over shunning and disciplinary proceeding when a young man under discipline released documents from his disciplinary contract to blogger & author Mathew Paul Turner. The documents include a discipline contract as well as an email from church leaders to the congregation directing them to shun him.
In 2012 The Stranger ran an article on Mars Hill Church based on interviews with former members. The article questions some of the church's practices, which, it claims, are more typical of a cult than of a congregation."
Links are provided in the Wiki article to substantiate this information.
For a number of years it appeared that Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill could do no wrong. They were admired by many in Christendom, from pastors to seminary presidents. Then in 2009 some videos were posted on YouTube with clips of an arrogant Driscoll alluding to the firing of two beloved Mars Hill pastors, namely Bent Meyer and Paul Petry. Our loyal readers will remember that Bent Meyer's first public statement about the firing was in a comment here at TWW, which we featured in a post Fired Mars Hill Elder Breaks His Silence. We were surprised when Slate linked to that post in a shocking article called A Shunning in Seattle. The Stranger also published some stunning information in an article entitled: Church or Cult? The Control-Freaky Ways of Mark Hill.
If you haven't read either of these articles, we strongly encourage you to do so. They will help you understand why this post by Dave Kraft may have been published on The Resurgence website.
What is The Resurgence? It is a ministry of Mars Hill Church. Here is some information from About Us on The Resurgence website:
"The Resurgence is largely known for its global reach. We host the largest Christian leadership blog, publish a half-dozen books annually, hold conferences around the country, and
offer a master's level theological training program for leaders from around the world. We are working on everything a tiny team possibly can to train Christians and churches around the world to lead gospel-driven lives and ministries."
Mark Driscoll has had a far-reaching impact since establishing Mars Hill Church; however, some serious cracks have developed in the foundation of his ministry. Not only did Driscoll step down as a council member of The Gospel Coalition but he resigned as president of Acts 29. Then he jetted around with his wife Grace to promote their book Real Marriage.
Driscoll needs to get real with his ministry and realize that he has some serious problems that others are beginning to recognize. If he hardens his heart as it appears C.J. Mahaney has done, it will likely lead to further problems in Mars Hill Church. Kraft's post is divided into four sections:
TAKE PAINS TO HAVE A CLEAR CONSCIENCE
IGNORING OFFENSES CAN DESTROY CHURCHES
TIME DOES NOT HEAL ALL OFFENSES
DEAL WITH IT – NOW
Here is some excellent advice from Dave Kraft:
"Once someone is offended and it is not quickly and appropriately dealt with, lots of things can go south, and probably will.
A church I know of is experiencing some difficulties with a former member. He is on the warpath. Talking with current members, writing accusatory emails to the leadership, and the beat goes on. At a meeting the idea surfaced that he was offended months ago and it has never been resolved. Plans are in progress to sit down with this “offended brother” to make amends and ask for forgiveness where it is called for. I have seen one person destroy a church or organization due to an offense that was ignored or not sufficiently resolved. Others take up one person’s offense and the rift continues to grow.
Elapsed time causes more problems than it resolves.
I could continue to give you one story after the other from my own life or in the life of groups and organizations I am acquainted with that have experienced splits, people leaving, and pastors resigning due to people who have been offended (sometimes years ago). Some call it “keeping short accounts.” Dealing with issues between people as quickly as possible is so crucial."
During the New Year we will continue to monitor Mark Driscoll and keep you apprised on any developments. Is Driscoll capable of change? Only time will tell… Here he is during the time that Bent Meyer and Paul Petry were fired. We sincerely hope that Dave Kraft has viewed this video and given Driscoll some much needed correction.
Finally, we hope The Resurgence and Mars Hill Church aren't just giving lip service to a serious matter that MUST be addressed head-on in 2013.
Update 12/28: We received this following information from Ben Tudley, a new commenter. It really throws an interesting and, might we say, hypocritical, spin on Kraft's post.
Dave Kraft was a member of the team investigating the so-called charges against the two dear elders who got unjustly fired.
He also failed to show up at the trial of Paul Petry. He apparently did not need to hear Paul Petry's defense. He sent in his guilty vote prior to the trial. Sadly, other than the two older elders being fired, Dave Kraft was the only other elder that was old enough to exercise some leadership and stand up to Driscoll's abuse. He did not, and six years later one would think he would have attempted to have followed his own sage advice.
One by one, the elders who were caught up in the abuse have expressed remorse and confessed yielding to the pressure of voting against their own conscience.
Gosh, there are but a handful even left that go to Mars Hill. Dave Kraft.. Have the courage to heed your own council. We are heading into the seventh year of no repentance.
In the sixth year Driscoll blamed his actions on not getting enough sex and being frustrated about it (Real Marriage). Just that alone ought to produce repentance. Lead Mr. Kraft, lead.
If this information is true, we have one more ho hum Christian speaking out of both sides of his mouth. C.J. Mahaney was Mark Driscoll's mentor, so I guess we can say that the apple does not fall far from the tree. Sheeesh!
Lydia's Corner: Numbers 14:1-15:16 Mark 14:53-72 Psalm 53:1-6 Proverbs 11:4
Take note of the conference speakers here (http://theresurgence.com/conference): James MacDonald????? More info on James here: http://theelephantsdebt.com/
What a train wreck. And if you order now, you can pay the discounted price of $250. Prices go up after January 1, so hurry and order NOW!
Julie Anne: “Take note of the conference speakers here…”
Yes. Who has the top position? Isn’t that the guy who “stepped down” from leading Acts 29 and Matt Chandler stepped in as “President”?
LOL
Dave Kraft was a member of the team investigating the so-called charges against the two dear elders who got unjustly fired.
He also failed to show up at the trial of Paul Petry. He apparently did not need to hear Paul Petry's defense. He sent in his guilty vote prior to the trial. Sadly, other than the two older elders being fired, Dave Kraft was the only other elder that was old enough to exercise some leadership and stand up to Driscoll's abuse. He did not, and six years later one would think he would have attempted to have followed his own sage advice.
One by one, the elders who were caught up in the abuse have expressed remorse and confessed yielding to the pressure of voting against their own conscience.
Gosh, there are but a handful even left that go to Mars Hill. Dave Kraft.. Have the courage to heed your own council. We are heading into the seventh year of no repentance.
In the sixth year Driscoll blamed his actions on not getting enough sex and being frustrated about it (Real Marriage). Just that alone ought to produce repentance. Lead Mr. Kraft, lead.
One cannot serve God and Mammon both.
Ben Tudley,
Thanks for your insightful comment. I have more investigating to do…
Is he more concerned about the well-being of the offended brother – or damage control for the church? It seems like he is trying to corral the loose cannon more than anything. That’s just my take.
Ben
We have amended our post to reflect your comment and gave you credit as well. Thank you.
Virginia Knowles,
Excellent question! I believe we will discover the true motive soon.
They also need to go beyond the squeaky wheel and understand that there are others just as wounded who are too fearful or weary to speak up. If the offended brother is leveling criticism about how the church is dysfunctionally lead, rather than just a specific personal incident, then quelling his immediate criticism is not enough. They have to discern the broader problem and fix the system for the future. If others left to attend healthier churches because they became aware of fatal flaws where they had been, the “offended brother” was perhaps performing a vital ministry by being a whistle blower and protecting them from more damage. I don’t know the details, so I wouldn’t know if the offended brother was just being nasty or divisive. Just some considerations for leaders, I suppose.
When the largest church in our area buys a large shopping area with restaurants, a bank, jewelers, insurance agencies….you can’t call it anything but a business.
Julie Anne –
$250 for two days at the “storied” Mars Hill Church in Seattle.
“The main event will be held at one of downtown Seattle’s most storied churches. Limited seating will be available!” (From their registration page.) I’m not sure which definition of storied they are claiming.
$99 to view from a satellite location.
There is a $13.49 processing fee for each ticket. I wonder if you can send your check by mail and avoid this fee? I also wonder what company is doing the processing? Seems like the $250 should be able to cover all the fees.
I’m not sure if any meals are included. I didn’t see info on food or accommodations.
The conference isn’t until November, but these early bird prices end January 31st eight months before the conference.
I wonder if all the people who buy the $250 seats will go view at the satellite locations and give their $250 seats and accommodations to the satellite viewers š
If the church you belong to has any of the following characteristics and you experience a grievance, you’d have to be Chuck Norris to resolve it:
1. The church you have joined, no doubt, has two classes of membership – those in leadership and those in membership. Those in leadership have greater rights. Members are the lower class.
2. The church you have joined probably appoints their leaders rather than the leaders being appointed or chosen by the members.
3. When it comes to resolving conflicts, you are probably under obligation, as a church member, to submit yourselves to the decision of the leadership regardless of whether the decision is fair or just.
4. When the above points hold true, when airing a grievance you will find the deck stacked against you. One example of this is the leaders will agree to meet in a location of their choosing with as many people present as they desire without informing you. You, however, will not be allowed to have anyone join you as a witness, nor allowed to determine a location.
5. The leadership sees themselves as having authority over your life. There is little sense of the leadership serving you, rather you are to submit to and serve the interests of those in leadership.
6. The church emphasizes leadership and says very little about the church being a body with the members all being part of the “priesthood of believers,” who are mutually submitted to one another.
7. The church is a hierarchical power structure, contrary to the words of Jesus who said, “You know that the rulers of the non-Jewish people love to show their power over the people. And their important leaders love to use all their authority over the people. But it should not be that way with you. If one of you wants to become great, then he must serve you like a servant.”
8. Leaders are normally salaried employees of the church. Even though your money supports their positions, you have no right to question them or the quality of their work. That is considered insubordination.
9. Grievances by members are usually met with suggestions of pride because members are viewed as lower on the food chain, and therefore less godly. In extreme situations where the folly of leadership is challenged and exposed, leaders may call you names like “Weapons of Mass Destruction” and make videos about how awful you are and how you provoked their wives to cry and gasp for breath.
10. Leaders often enjoy comfortable lives and a higher standard of living in order to maintain their sense of superiority over the members. Very little is done in response to the needs of the membership because needs are viewed as threats. Under the leadership of the church everyone is expected to thrive. If you are not thriving it’s your problem, due to your sin. But don’t go to any outside authorities in an effort to resolve your problems. Let us string you along and make things worse while “caring for your soul.”
Ben Tudley,
“One by one, the elders who were caught up in the abuse have expressed remorse and confessed yielding to the pressure of voting against their own conscience.”
I’ve been wondering about Scott Thomas, Brad House, and Jamie Munson of Mars Hill fame. Have they expressed remorse of any kind? Indicated that they, too, yielded to pressure against their own conscience?
Dave Kraft appears to be just one more of those who are expert at cynically saying the right thing to appear pious and Godly but don’t believe a word of it in order to hide their own lack of principles.
“Dave Kraft appears to be just one more of those who are expert at cynically saying the right thing to appear pious and Godly but donāt believe a word of it in order to hide their own lack of principles.”
JeffT,
this was my point on another thread about how all this works. Nevermind the facts which they try to keep hidden as much as possible so when those wronged speak out like the Petry’s did with pure documentation, they have to change tactics. The resurgence article is simply another tactic that is as hypocritical as one can get. Why bother? Because numbers and influence were starting to be affected.
They tried to spin the Acts 29 hand off to Chandler but anyone with any sense saw right through it. Driscoll became an embarassment. Of course, there were years of proof everywhere. But when the lawyer Petry offered his documentation online, the game changed. Anyone else notice that? Porno divinations were ignored. All the vulgar talka bout Jesus ignored, etc, etc. It was when the documentation went online, the changes started. Interesting.
Anon 1
One of the best things about this website are the people like you and others who know the whole story and call “shenanigans” guys like this. Otherwise, if one only saw what they put out, one would be mislead into thinking these guys are alright.
Bridget
I wonder what they would do if a bearded man in sandals showed up at the “storied” church along with 12disciples and some hangers on and asked to be admitted? Would they waive the fee or would they tell him to do a wedding at Cana miracle and conjure up some gold.
Evie
You speak from experience and it is compelling. Those who have never been on the receiving end of the extent of abuse that you saw will not get it. Thankfully, God allowed me to go through an experience so that I now get it. I am sorry for what you and your family endured. But, at least you wised up. Many people never do.
@ dee:
Considering what I know of MH, I’m thinking they would explain that he and his band of followers hadn’t followed the rules for admittance and could not enter. This would
take place under the watchful eye of the armed security guards. If there was any trouble, MH would probably ask that this man and his followers be put under church discipline at their member church. This seems to be the pattern š
I was asked about Scott Thomas, Jamie Munson and Brad Haus. I cannot comment on Brad Haus, but I can say Scott is claiming to be a victim himself, asserting that he had no choice in his role in the trial (he headed the Investigation Team) and claims to be blacklisted himself by Mars Hill. Jamie says that all is well because he “sees” Paul Petry st their sons’ ball games. None of the three have made any attempt to put matters right. It might be a violation of the gag order they signed in order to get severance pay from Mars Hill.
Wasn’t Scott Thomas also the MarsHill Acts 29 guy?
Scott Thomas hastily left Acts 29 when Mark Driscoll handed over control of Acts 29 to Matt Chandler in an effort to avoid mutiny by many Acts 29 churches not willing to see the same kind of consolidation of power that they saw occur at Mars Hill in 2007 (the very consolidation the two fired elders were commenting on that led to their firings).
He found an immediate job at the Journey in St Louis where he is the Pastor of Ministry Development.
Eagle, Thanks for the link. You really get around the blogosphere.
A few links in reference to Ben Tudley’s earlier comments about Kraft, Joyful Exiles includes correspondence that mentions Kraft’s role in the EIT in a few spots.
http://joyfulexiles.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/10-01-2007-email-from-jmunson.pdf
http://joyfulexiles.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/10-01-2007-email-from-scott-thomas-re-eit.pdf
http://joyfulexiles.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/10-01-2007-termination-ltr-jamie-munson.pdf
http://joyfulexiles.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/10-02-2007-important-message-from-the-lead-pastor.pdf
http://joyfulexiles.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/10-16-2007-statement-of-the-elders.pdf
Kraft can go on record with whatever evidence he and the other EIT members found to back up Munson’s accusations any time now.
Ben Tudley, I’m wondering how immediately Scott Thomas got a job at Darrin Patrick’s church. The offer may have been immediately after Joyful Exiles went up, maybe, but the announcement that Thomas was joining The Journey’s leadership team seemed to come around mid-June:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=33420160&l=02b1bf1b48&id=1044289260
https://twitter.com/scottythom/status/215076917169233921
Thomas was still a member of Mars Hill in April 2012, for instance (not that he might not still be technically listed as a Mars Hill member today for all we do or don’t know, and he was a member in August 2012). Of course it’s possible the job was lined up immediately by the time Scott Thomas told Matt Chandler he “felt released from leading Acts 29” the weekend after Joyful Exiles went up.
Even though I apparently share some common theological beliefs with Mr. Driscoll and others, I am so glad I am not involved with this group.
Following Christ is great.
Why must these goobers mess it up?
So of the four and twenty so-called elders who participated in the trial and subsequent new by-laws, who is still an elder st Mars Hill?
The by-laws went from elder for life (removal only possible after credible accusation and trial) with each elder carrying equal authority, to elder with almost no authority, who, with the exception of the top 5 hand picked elders, could be fired at will.
The top five continued to be appointed for life. Mark Driscoll is the one left in that enviable decision.
Bear in mind that almost all the elders were (highly) paid elders who, after Paul Petry and Bent Meyer were fired and humiliated, now realized a no vote would cost them their job.
Salaries of elders at the time averaged 6 figures. Many elders were in the twenties or young thirties.
To many the position of being an elder meant a significant pay increase, the prestige of being an elder in a dynamic church, and the power, respect and priviledge that such a position had at Mars Hill at the time.
All the would be lost by even questioning the proposed change.
So after voting away their authority and lifelong tenure, hardly any of these men even attend Mars Hill.
I wonder how many even consider Mars Hill in a good light?
I wonder how many, like Scott Thomas, went (as Thomas claims) from being the abusers to becoming abused themselves.
Ben Tudley wrote:
MD seems to have learned well from CJM/SGM. They have had disappearing apostles, pastors, and elders for years. It took me 3 years or so to realize that I had not heard the name of a certain apostle mentioned for as many years. Everyone close to the situation wants to keep their job (er . . is humble and holier than the rest of us) and had zipped lips, while the band playec on . . . š
“goobers”….
anonymous, you are far too polite.
The strategy of Mark Driscoll was amazing! It would make a good book. Dave Kraft’s teaching on “The Offended Brother” is also an effective part of the strategy.
Talking about this gives the appearance of actually doing it. “What an amazing group, this group called ReSurgence. Look at what they teach. What humble and wonderful men. Oh to have men like Pastor Dave Kraft as my pastor!”
“My, Grandmother, what big teeth you have!” said Little Red Riding Hood.
This reminds me of the accolades Mark Driscoll got, especially from Josh Harris, after confessing that he had failed to be humble and asked the church to forgive him (took 90 seconds) and then preaching the rest of the sermon bashing those who were questioning the firings as a demonstration of the same sin.
I wonder who is the target of these comments by Dave Kraft. On whom will the wrath of this Pastor be justified after such wonderful teaching about reaching the offended brother?
Ben Tudley,
Who’s still around? That’s an interesting question. These guys were pastors circa 2006-2007 who still seem to be pastors.
1. AJ Hamilton (now at Bellevue after a few years in NM)
2. Tim Smith (lead pastor MH Portland)
3. Bubba Jennings (lead pastor somewhere, soon to be Tacoma?)
4. Gary Shavey (biblical living pastor)
5. Dick McKinley is still there in some capacity, though I forget if he was a pastor then or not
6. Steve Tompkins (still lead pastor Shoreline)
7. Bill Clem (still lead pastor Ballard)
8. Jamie Munson (co-president Storyville Coffee–5% ownership of a firm owned by Jon Phelps–sitting on a few elder committees)
9. Mark Driscoll–no explanation necessary
10. Dave Kraft obviously still with MH in a pastoral role
11. Mike Wilkerson is still doing biblical living stuff only without James Noriega around to co-lead Redemption Groups
12. Tim Beltz consulting (which may be a euphemism for “unemployed” depending on how successful the consulting business is, biblical living pastor)
True, James Noriega, Lief Moi, Tim Reber, James Harleman and others are gone but if we do a head count how many of the 24 can be found now? You may be able to find the other 24 and establish where they are if you know the names of all 24.
The changes are often at campus levels that people may not spot unless they’re paying attention. Let’s take Steve Mulkey no longer being a pastor in the Olympia area just in the last two weeks.
Or take Tim Beltz being a pastor at MH West Seattle one week and then being moved to MH Downtown about a week after Wenatchee The Hatchet documented his reliance on James Noriega’s biblical counseling materials and noting that Noriega had stopped being listed as a pastor. That was a speedy transition. Or take Jeremy Echols’ roughly 10 month stint as an elder at West Seattle. It’s not clear he was ever on paid staff at MH but after documenting some stuff an Echols wrote about former co-founding pastor Lief Moi this spring it was a bit curious to discover that Echols vanished from the leadership roster at MH. He “may” not even have an account on The City these days.
People with access to The City might want to go see if Scott Thomas has resigned his membership yet because he hadn’t bothered to resign his membership by August 2012 after he’d preached a few sermons. That could give the impression that the leadership set doesn’t view membership vows as applying to them in the way they apply to tithing peons, per Evie’s earlier observations.
The theme I see in Mr. Kraft’s post is the same theme I see in so much of what comes out of the Calvinista camp: fear.
What else could produce so much aggressive behavior towards those who disagree, defensive (and seemingly delusional) witch-hunting, and overcompensation in terms of masculinity and authority? If you “reverse engineer” all of that and trace it to a hypothetical source, you discover a scared, insecure, paranoid individual.
A mature, qualified leader never bristles when someone questions their authority. An immature, ill-equipped, self-doubting leader does.
A mature, qualified leader trusts that the Lord is the true builder, sustainer, and head of the church, and so doesn’t live in constant fear that everything could crumble at any given moment. A spiritually immature, narcissistic, prideful leader seems himself as the builder of his own church/ministry and so (rightly) fears that his man-made structures are in danger of falling apart.
It’s hard not to think that these people have some serious problems like:
(a) not trusting Jesus to be the head of the church
(b) not trusting the Holy Spirit to be at work in the hearts and minds of believing church members
(c) struggling with insecurity to such an extent that it severely impairs their ability to lead well (which includes receiving and responding to criticism well, whether it’s fair or unfair), and actually causes them to aggressively lash out against their own sheep.
Mr.H wrote:
It occurs to me that this is what Nicolatianism does to the leaders. Because they usurp the place that only Jesus can/should fill, they are trying to do His job and, of course, failing miserably and suffering the consequences. They find that He does not equip them to do this after all so they must fall back on their own resources. What Christ does by nature in leading effectively in righteousness and loving kindness, these guys try to mimic with authoritarian dominance and control, aggression, damage control when their slips show, and other like tactics.
I was talking briefly to a pastors wife(they lean towards calvansim) and she said we are not perfect, we are all sinners. I’m so tried of that bs… They just don’t get it and never will. This old worn out cliche justifies them in how people in the church treat others. ” We are not perfect, La La La.”
I really didn’t want to get into the convo but she asked if we belonged to a church and then it went from there. As far as I’m concern, it is pointless and exhausting talking to people who are emerged into a system were they believe in it whole heartedly. What I have to say won’t change their minds. They will just continue to be dismissive to anything I have to say.
“it’s a business” Yep…this pretty much sums it up.
Evie, Exactly…your list is dead on.
Comment: “In the sixth year Driscoll blamed his actions on not getting enough sex and being frustrated about it (Real Marriage). ”
I’ve made it to my 40s with no sex. I was waiting for marriage to have sex, but marriage did not happen – Mark Driscoll needs to grow up. You CAN live without sex. You can have self control. It’s not always easy to go without, but it’s not impossible.
Zero, zero, zero sympathy for Driscoll about the sex issue.
He also is abnormally fixated on the topic of sex, based on the many online commentaries and testimonies I’ve read about him.
If there are any more Driscoll posts in the future, I may bring this up again, and I’m sorry if it irritates anyone when I do, but I have a few topics that are sore subjects with me, things that really get my dander up, and this is one of them. I hope he reads this blog – when it comes to sex, he behaves like a whiny, selfish, immature 15 year old kid.
@ Eagle:
I’m in a weird no man’s land. I can see things from both sides of it. I was a conservative Christian going back to childhood, and while I still believe in much of the theology, I’m turned off by a lot of the behavior I see in other Christians now. I have begun questioning aspects of the Christian faith.
I don’t think I will ever become a non believer, though, since I don’t think I can ever disagree that Christ is God and was raised from the dead. And that is the foundation of the faith.
But I do see things from both sides. When I see some disgruntled Christians (or atheists) complain or wonder about Christian faith or Christian behavior, I kind of get it…. but at the same time, I can see some of the sense in what those Christians are saying (the ones who are being criticized).
It feels so weird to be in the middle. I don’t belong totally to conservative Christians on every point, but I’m not an atheist/ agnostic or all-out critic, either. I don’t know how to explain it, except I’m not completely on board with any single group about Christianity these days (those who are pro or con). It’s a very weird, disorienting place to be.
@ Evie:
That line of thinking seems especially prevalent in churches that believe in the Prosperity Gospel message. I’ve even heard some of these preachers say that being poor is a sin… even though that teaching is not in the Bible.
dee wrote:
You know darn well they’d ask for gold š
13. Phil Smidt is biblical living pastor at Ballard (and someone has told me he’s Munson’s brother-in-law)
14. Kerry Michaelies is a pastor at Mars Hill Shoreline
15. Jonathan Krombein is a pastor at Ballard
16. Tim Quiring is a pastor at MH Everett
Jonna Petry mentioned at Joyful Exiles that Lief Moi reconciled with them and Tim Reber (if memory serves). Scott Thomas was at MH right up to the point that Joyful Exiles got published. James Noriega apparently got canned in late 2011 (which fit the time frame in which MH PR stated that pastors connected to disciplinary cases got let go for overstepping spiritual authority before they rephrased the statement to say the firings had no connection at all to the cases of Andrew or Lance). James Harleman has stopped being part of MH as of early this year.
Adam Sinnett and Jesse Winkler transitioned into church plants of some sort.
So of the 24 elders in place able to vote on the 2007 firings at least 16 of them are still pastors there. That so many men have been added to the roster of pastors can make it seem as though all those men who voted in 2007 disappeared. That’s not the case, there’s just been a lot of shuffling guys from campus to campus.
Two thirds of the men still being pastors at MH means the majority of those guys stuck around. People who want to know what evidence was produced that made them so positive Meyer and Petry needed to get removed as elders should be able to produce that evidence readily enough six years later.
So that’s a brief run-down on the people who were elders in a position to vote on the 2007 firings as best I can recall (with a bit of help from sources).
Hi, Daisy.
“It feels so weird to be in the middle. I donāt belong totally to conservative Christians on every point, but Iām not an atheist/ agnostic or all-out critic, either. I donāt know how to explain it, except Iām not completely on board with any single group about Christianity these days (those who are pro or con). Itās a very weird, disorienting place to be.”
*******
I think there are hundreds of thousands there with you. I know I am.
We don’t have to be on board with ANYONE.
God is infinitely bigger than the Baptist Party, the Presbterian Party, Pentecostal Party, Non-Denomination party, the Emergent Party, the pre/post/mid parties, the Dispensational Party, the TULIP Party, Arminian Party, Creationist Party, Evolutionist Party, The Gospel Coalition Party, Resurgence Party, Zondervan Party, Tyndale Party, Complementarian Party, Egalitarian Party, NIV Party, ESV Party, and every hybrid imagineable….
(I’ll be designating the animal symbols for each, thank you)
Ben Tudley wrote:
Isn’t that usually called “Packing his brains below his belt”?
“In the sixth year Driscoll blamed his actions on not getting enough sex and being frustrated about it (Real Marriage).”
Okay, granted, I’m not a guy so maybe I don’t “get it” on this one…but am I the only one who thinks this is a really lame excuse? I mean, really, should the amount of sex you’re having really be a big enough problem to make you behave badly in every other area of your life? And if it is, isn’t that awfully close to some kind of sex addiction or at least a pretty big issue? Last time I checked, the reproductive system was the only non-essential organ system in the body…i.e., you don’t NEED it to survive.
Whenever I would hear Driscoll on the topic of sex (which was most of the time) I immediately thought of Richard Wurmbrand.
Hester wrote:
Nope, you’re not the only one. I am a man, and a heterosexual married one at that. And that excuse is a bit pitiful really.
@Eagle, I know exactly what you mean. I was there and finally left evangelicalism altogether for sanity sake. You are not an oddball, but part of the sane bunch.
Michael
Are you implying that I, adorable blog queen, am insane?Ā
If you mean, do I imply anyone who hasn’t left evangelicalism is insane, absolutely not. I had to leave for my own personal reasons and @eagle seems like his not feeling like he fits anywhere, which I can definately relate to, needs the encouragement that many others feel the same. Didn’t mean to imply anything… I like your title, “adorable blog queen” š
Michael
Well darn-I was hoping to have another name to add to my list of “What the world is saying about the Wartburg Watch.” LinkĀ My personal favorite this week (itĀ varies depending on my mood) is “minions of Satan.” I have bee waiting forever for someone to call me an Amalekite-those dudes were really difficult.
Kidding aside-welcome to TWW.
Or you could try “HERETIC BREATH”. That was a favorite expression of “Nutsy Nancy”, the Pinkie Pie of my old college gang.
Interesting. James macdonald just told his congregation that they should not be struggling to make ends meet by the time they are 40, 50, or 60 years old. This is of course his end of the year pitch for money, exacerbated by the newly revealed staggering debt. The idea being-you should be able to give and to dig deep for the fund raising campaign by this time in your life. There was a disgusting video to go along. “We were out of work and didn’t know where the $ would come from but we pledged anyway and we got the best jobs right after!!” Shameful.
HBC Anon
James MacDonal should be ashamed of himself. If he used one penny of that poor man’s money to heat his fancy digs, he should hang his head, MacDonald has turned into another “user” Ā of the flock.