may God comfort these families.

Praying.

This is a tragedy I find I have no words for.

Praying from the heart alone.

A senseless and tragic event. My thoughts and heart felt sorry go out to those involved. May they find solace wherever they can. – Karl

Such a senseless and evil thing. My thoughts and prayers are with the families and community in Newtown.

My niece teaches in Connecticut and she was, of course, my first thought. But it is so tragic no matter where it happens. It just is unfathomable. I teach two-year-olds in a not so good neighborhood, and sometimes I pray that God would give me strength and wisdom if something tragic were to happen. So wrong that we have to even think this way!

We have become so self-absorbed that if the world doesn’t go the way we want it to our only response is anger and vitriol and if we still don’t like it, we’ll just check out and take other people with us and make other peoples’ lives miserable as well because we just couldn’t care less about others either. Life is cheap.

This leaves me completely overwhelmed.Killing 28 people is just completely senseless.

Mike Huckabee … tragedy in Ct. happened because we removed God from our schools…
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/12/14/1339971/huckabee-says-connecticut-school-massacre-occurred-because-we-removed-god-from-our-schools/

My prayer is that the babies murdered today knew only a moment of fear, confusion, and pain before they were in the arms of their Loving Shepherd; that unspeakable Comfort will be with the parents, siblings, grandparents,other family, friends,neighbors, and teachers in their unspeakable grief. Especially, oh, Dear Lord, the parents. That we all remember as we grieve together to love each other.

Sorry, Huckabee, but “removing God” from schools doesn’t have a thing to do with it. For instance: Back in 1927, when Bible reading and prayer were typically part of the school day, a man bombed a school in Bath, Michigan, killing 38 children and seven adults.

I’m just heartsick for the people of Newton. I can’t imagine what they’re going through. Lord, have mercy.

It is such a sad, horrible event. I pray that comfort will come to those who have had such terrible loss today. There is really no way to make sense of any of it. May God have mercy on everyone involved.

I’m glad Piper was able to say something without tearing people down, but he really didn’t need to say anything except he is praying. Why does he think he always needs to be one of the first to instruct people as to what they need to think or believe about a tragedy? He even felt the need to link to other posts he wrote about other tragedies. I don’t get it.

This did not happen because we took some plaques with the 10C off school walls. It is normal for everyone to try and find some reason or something to blame so we can “fix” it. I forsee the day that we will have magnatrons at every school. If that is what it takes to protect the precious ones, we should do it. I know a school administrator who conceals and carries but that is not well known. Some will think that horrible. He was a student at a school where this sort of thing happened 20 years ago. He takes it that seriously.

As to the Christian celebs weighing in, I am with Bridget:

“Why does he think he always needs to be one of the first to instruct people as to what they need to think or believe about a tragedy? He even felt the need to link to other posts he wrote about other tragedies. I don’t get it.”

Because he is a guru and guru’s musts give us ignorant plebes the answers.

Lynne T – thank you, for your thoughts and for your poem.

All I can do is cry, my heart is so broken.

looking,

Here is another *$#^ saying it happened because we can’t pray in schools..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/15/bryan-fischer-god-did-not-protect-connecticut-shooting-victims-prayer-banned_n_2303903.html

Here’s a question, so even though parents of these children might be Christian, even though they go to church on Sundays and bible study during the week, even though they say grace at family means and the kids prayed each night before going to bed, even though everyone in the household loved Jesus are you seriously telling me that God refused to protect innocent children because some politician back in the 70’s decided that religion belongs in church and not in schools?

Are you **$&% kidding me?

I so pray for the families of the victims, the horror they are enduring must be unimaginable. Despite my faith, there are times like this where these words from Psalm 44 come to mind:

Rouse yourself! Why do you sleep, O Lord?
Awake, do not cast us off for ever!
Why do you hide your face?
Why do you forget our affliction and oppression?
For we sink down to the dust;
our bodies cling to the ground.
Rise up, come to our help.
Redeem us for the sake of your steadfast love.

We are praying for all the victims and their families. We are
praying that this tragedy will change millons of hearts and attitudes.
We also praying for everyone that lives in Newtown,Connecticut.

Nicholas,

On the contrary, this is the BEST time and place to declare that God loves people. That these children are in heaven with Him, and it is THEM that he loves. He declares that it is early, that this was NOT His plan; but He is ready. He is ready and they are with Him and will be for eternity because He loves them and everyone. He created them to live, and not to die. And live they are, with Him, in heaven. Now, laughing, at peace, forevermore.

I’m not ranting about doctrine. I’m explaining that in order for us as Christians to offer hope we have to offer it! And appealing to the killing of 28 innocent people as a divine example of the doctrine of depravity amounts to nothing of comfort and hope. It points to the worst Christian trend imaginable in a time like this.

Nicholas, why are you angry with me?

Sorry, Argo.

” Let the little children come to Me and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”
Safe and secure with their heavenly father. May the comfort and peace of God uphold the broken hearted families left on earth.

Huckabee asked, “Should we be so surprised….?” I felt physically ill when I read his callous, thoughtless comments. How can Huckabee be so desensitized that he isn’t shocked by a school massacre in which 20 little children and six school staff were murdered? This is a blame-the-victims response. Because we took God out of public schools, we shouldn’t be surprised that Sandy Hook Elementary became a place of carnage? Sandy Hook didn’t become the site of a mass murder because they didn’t pray there. It became a place of carnage because a 20-year old man, who presumably had a mental disorder and/or personality disorder, was able to obtain a slew of guns.

Argo – I agree with you on gentleness.

Kathy – Thanks so much for the link to RHE’s post.

It helped.

Anon 1,

I agree that there were images of God in the reports and that His hand of protection was on many in the school yesterday. For Huckabee to blame the victims by saying that we’ve taken God out of public schools and shouldn’t be surprised by the “carnage” is heartless.

There are several reports from neighbors, friends, and family that suggest the shooter had a mental disorder or personality disorder, which is why I used the word presumably. There is still so much that isn’t known. A neighbor and family friend who was interviewed said his mother collected guns. The ones he used to murder, the ones found inside the school, and the rifle found in her car were all registered to her. The unfortunate thing with guns, whether mentally ill or raw evil, is the easy access and quick, efficient murder.

The research shows that mass murderers in their 20’s are often mentally unstable. Mental illness often shows up in late adolescence and early adulthood. Older perpetrators in their 30’s and 40’s are usually raging and seeking revenge. Regardless of the circumstances in this case, I’m not willing to accept that there is nothing that can be done because it’s going to happen anyway.

Quote and link to interesting article from the Christian Post Blog about a study that links being bullied to becoming a mass murderer.

School shooter, 16-year-old Luke Woodham, wrote in his journal before murdering two students and injuring seven others: “I am not insane. I am angry. I am not spoiled or lazy.… I killed because people like me are mistreated every day.… I am malicious because I am miserable.”

http://blogs.christianpost.com/protectors/bullying-school-shootings-the-potential-for-redemption-13619/

What are we going to do if some the people in churches being bullied by pastors and others start doing the same thing? Maybe it’s not if but when.

I am so hurt and frustrated that Christians, including Huckabee, are blaming the victims of this school massacre on God being taken out of the public sphere. Ugh.

Huckabee said we don’t have a gun problem or a crime problem; we’ve got a sin problem. Before he starts pointing fingers at public schools for their “sin”, he should start looking at all the sin and abuse in our churches. Is he “surprised” by THAT?

Outlaw guns, period. It may not completely solve the problem of crime, but it certainly will improve the situation. The US currently has almost twice the per capita gun ownership of the next closest country.

I don’t care if the constitution gives you the right to own guns, why in the world wouldn’t you voluntarily give up that right to help protect innocent children. Want to collect something, try stamps.

There are other countries with virtually no gun violence because average citizens don’t have guns. Therefore, someone who wants to go on a murder spree has less access to that type of weapon. I know, I know, they can always bomb the school or set the whole school on fire or attack kids with knives. But with more restrictions and regulations on gun ownership, there would be one less weapon with such enormously easy access and little planning to mass murder.

I grew up with guns. My dad’s gun cabinet was stocked full of guns and ammo, and there were unlocked guns in other places in the house. They could have easily gotten into the wrong hands. Why in the world should one man (my dad) be able to own that many guns? Why can an anonymous person like the Aurora, CO movie theatre shooter order numerous weapons and ammunition and have them delivered to his home and his university?

We can’t prevent every tragedy, but there are things we can do. I agree that our schools should have bullet-proof glass and metal detectors and as much security as possible. The public also needs to educated about mental illness, personality disorders, threats, and veiled threats. When friends and family are interviewed after a mass killing, law enforcement often discovers that the perpetrator had made threats or veiled threats that weren’t taken seriously.

Linda:

Your comment sounds very much like Huckabees. Not sure it helps the current situation IMO.

Wendy – we could start by reinstating the ban on assault weapons (automatics and semis). They are meant for one thing only: killing other human beings.

I, too, grew up (and am now living in) an area where many people hunt, and yet, gun violence here is rare. *however,* if guns owned by people who use them responsibly get into the wrong hands, then…

An Aussie who comments on one of my friends’ blogs said that the Australian government bought guns back from its citizens after a mass murder of this kind. Sounds like a good plan, if only people here would accept it.

Linda,

Huckabee is Fox New’s Religious Right Superstar. He made both of these comments on Fox News.

Yesterday after the Newtown, CT school shooting:

“We ask why there’s violence in our schools but we’ve systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools have become such a place of carnage?

In July after the Aurora, CO theatre shooting:

“We don’t have a crime problem, or a gun problem, or even a violence problem. What we have is a sin problem. And since we’ve ordered God out of our schools and communities, the military and public conversations…we really shouldn’t act so surprised when all hell breaks loose.”

So, basically, we shouldn’t act so surprised. He repeated this again yesterday. Let’s just move on with our day. Nothing to see here.

Mot,

I can’t imagine being a parent of one of the slain children and hearing Huckabee’s cruel comments. I read that the Newtown community has higher than average church attendance. I bet there were many parents, teachers, and children who prayed and loved Jesus. He didn’t leave their hearts just because they were in a “secular” building. And the shooter didn’t murder these innocents because God was systematically removed from our schools.

Wisdomchaser – re. my previous response to you, I meant to say that I have been crying and praying, too.

Australia banned semi-automatic weapons back in 1996 after the Port Arthur massacre. There were some complaints and opposition, but it was very successful. I think it would be more difficult to do in the USA because of the very different attitude towards guns.
That attitude difference is also why I can look at linda’s list, say yep, that all applies in very similar ways in Australia, and yet we don’t have the same violence.

Names of the school victims were just released.

Age 6 – 16 victims
Age 7 – 4 victims

Ages of adults – 29, 47, 52, 30, 56, 27

Mike Huckabee … tragedy in Ct. happened because we removed God from our schools… — Fendrel

Surprised Huckabee was first to shoot his mouth off. Usually it’s Pat Robertson, and John Piper has been trying to out-do Pat the last year or two.

Sorry, HUG, have to disagree on the ‘agenda’ line. We banned semiautomatics after a mass shooting here, and it was an excellent decision. It seems to be a depressing fact of life in the USA that nobody talks about guns until big incidents happen, and then the’re told it ‘isn’t the right time’. It makes me wonder when the right time will come.

Kolya,

Thanks for the information. Always good to learn more.

I don’t think discussing the related issues and possible solutions is inappropriate, but I do think using the tragedy for political gain is reprehensible, as you said.

Nicholas,

first it isn’t political grandstanding, I am not running for office, nor do I have anything to gain. These conversations absolutely need to had and the issues discussed and unfortunately the only time people truly listen is in the wake of a tragedy.

Do you have any idea how small the number of times a gun is used in self-defense by a citizen is in compared to how many thousands of accidental deaths there are each year?

Wendy,

Thank you very much. I also raised three children (grown and gone), but I grew up in Connecticut, not that far from Newton. Believe me when I say I share their pain.

If I thought I could do any good I would be on a plane back home, but there are so many people there to help, I would just be in the way.

You are absolutely correct, we need to discuss these issues, I wish Dee would maybe put up an article on gun control or a general public policy post, maybe she will.

I went to Panara’s today for a coffee, it was sad that I did not hear one conversation or relevant discussion at the tables around me. We are so quick to try and bury that which is uncomfortable to us. We need to have serious, in depth dialog on these issues.

We always assume it is some mental illness disorder instead of just raw evil because he was angry and hateful”

Exactly….

I see these people as obvious psychopaths. It starts out when they are kids and then as they get older, they just take it to a whole other level.For a lot of people it’s hard to believe that there are people out there who don’t have a conscience.But once you’ve been around these people enough and have delt with them on a very personal level, you see evil, not mental illness.

Fenrel, Mental illness is when someone has an obvious disease that they can’t help. Evil is not a mental illness that someone chooses to do. Mental illness is a card that people play because they have no understanding of the facts involved. It really just gives the person who has “mental illness” a free pass and it degrades the victims.

Whether or not the murderer had any mental or emotional problems, he was evil, as are all other murderers and mass murderers.

People comfort themselves by considering mass murderers as “sick” or “disturbed” rather than evil. People today flinch at the word “evil” and only want to use it for the worst cases like Hitler.

Fendrel – You might not have heard any conversations about the murders, but that does not mean that the people in the restaurant were unfeeling.

Everyone grieves in their own way. And it’s just not possible to talk constantly about a tragedy, whether personal or national.

Other than that, I completely agree on gun control.

but I’m still too upset to want to say much about any of it.

Chaplain Mike’s post today – over at internetmonk.com is good:

http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/37334

Nicholas,

“Whether or not the murderer had any mental or emotional problems, he was evil, as are all other murderers and mass murderers.

People comfort themselves by considering mass murderers as “sick” or “disturbed” rather than evil. People today flinch at the word “evil” and only want to use it for the worst cases like Hitler.”

I suspect this is because christian culture (religion in general) is prone to simplifying everything down into good versus evil, black / white — and pigeonholing everyone and everything into broad categories of right / wrong, good / bad. There is no room for complexity, or for intelligent understanding. At the same time, there is plenty of room for rationalizing shades of gray into white or black, according to what is exepdient and convenient.

Evil / good is reality from a bird’s eye view.

@ Looking for You:

You mentioned (maybe on another thread?) that someone on your FB had claimed it was better for the children to be shot than for them to grow up going to public school. Am I hearing you right? If so, then Reconstructionism deserves nothing but public scorn and contempt. No theology that makes a method of schooling a greater sin than gunning down 20 children in cold blood is respectable, godly, admirable, or frankly even worth anybody’s time (no matter how faux-intellectual its proponents are). I don’t care how many inches thick their books are, how many they wrote, how big the words in them are, or that the authors were lawyers and economists. You can pour gravy over crap and put it under glass and call it pheasant, but underneath it all, it’s still just BS. I’m done.

Would it be completely out of line for me to ask for the verbatim quote from that guy’s FB? It would be nice to have hard proof of their real priorities from their own mouths.

@ Elastigirl:

Also, Christian “bubble” culture has wasted the word “evil” on so many little things (backbeats, Barbie dolls, two-piece swimsuits, etc.) that they can no longer bring themselves to use it when confronted with the real thing (if they can even recognize the real thing in the first place).

For example, I know a woman who wouldn’t let her children watch I Am Legend because the zombies were too scary. (They were teenagers, not little kids.) But if Christian children are being trained to hide from fictional zombies because they just can’t cope with how “scary” they are, what do we expect them to do if they find themselves in a situation like the one at Newtown? What if they were a teacher and the only line of defense between a crazed shooter and a class of innocent children? The movie zombies can’t hurt you. The real evil in front of you can.

Hester —

yeah, maybe that’s it. The purveyors, the assumed owners of the word evil have drained it of all meaning. Like the boy who cried wolf. People just ignore it now.

I still remember being called a whore, when after almost 20 years of home schooling 10 kids, I put a teenager in public school. The anonymous blog commenter claimed that God is not in public schools and anyone associated with them is ungodly. I asked why he/she thought this way – was there a story behind the hostility? And I reminded him/her that when a Christian walks into a public school (student or employee) the indwelling God goes in with them. Therefore God IS in the public schools! :-). Silly rules can’t keep him away!

I cried hard tonight when the news started listing the names of the children and adults that were killed. I have absolutely NO idea how the parents/family hold up during a time like this. Kyrie, eleison!

Huckabee and Bryan Fischer used this tragedy to score political points and nothing more. Here is Huckabee’s actual record when it comes to protecting children:

http://jeriwho.net/lillypad2/?cat=203

http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/search?q=Huckabee

Oh yes, if public school is evil, then it serves them right for being there? And the real evil is shuffled.

BTW, I have great sympathy for families affected by mental illness, as it appears this family was. It sucks. It sucks. It sucks. Come, Lord Jesus!

An excellent article on dealing with the death of children, by a former hospital chaplain:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-emily-c-heath/dealing-with-grief-five-t_b_2303910.html

Also, did anybody see that Westboro “Baptist” Cult is going to picket Newtown?

“I have great sympathy for families affected by mental illness, as it appears, this family was.”

So the shooter didn’t have a choice in what he did? He was forced to do this because he was “mentally ill.?”

I did see that the Westboro cult is planning on picketing… I know there is a call for people to go and build a human wall around the funerals of the victims, to protect them from those hateful, hateful people.

They make me sick. To even *think* about spreading their message of hate at the funerals of CHILDREN… I mean, there are not enough words to describe how despicable that is!!!

http://thebluereview.org/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother/

You may have to try more than once because this site is very, very busy. If this was already linked I am sorry. I haven’t read the post since I got up this morning.

It’s time to fix the mental health system. It’s time for those of us who are Christians to stop talking nonsense and start being the light and salt Jesus wants us to be. O yeah, I can’t believe Westboro. These guys are the children of their real father – Satan.

Fendrel,

Whether scientific determinism or theological, determinism is false. Two things you cannot get around: the first is that determinism ironically concedes that it is the cause that creates the effect. Thus, by definition nothing is determined because nothing exists until it is manifest by the cause. So whether the future is utterly predictable is irrelevant. Determinism cannot be true without conceding cause and effect relationship, which can then logically be knowable by one who is self aware, and since cause and effect is conceded, determinism is false. Determinism is only true if you accept that an effect is set, even though the cause may not exist. This is a logical impossibility. If determinism is true, then there are no causes, only effects, which again is impossible because there can be no first cause, by definition. Which, again is impossible.

The second problem with determinism is that, by its own logic, the very thoughts in your head are mere determined events (absent a cause). This makes it impossible for you to know anything at all, including your belief in determinism or lack of choice. There is no thing you can claim as truth because truth requires you to be able to abstract; which you cannot do, because each and every thought in your mind is a singularly, unconnected predetermined event. So again, your belief in determinism is false because there is no way you could know it even if it were true.

If we concede cause and effect of any kind, we must concede that the very recognition of this means that these laws of cause and effect can be manipulated by a consciousness that grasps them in order to effect outcomes that would otherwise not exist.

You are mistaken. Without free choice, you cannot possibly exist. And if you did, you wouldn’t be aware of it. You wouldn’t know anything at all. You would have no self awareness.

Determinism is the utter undoing of both atheism and Calvinism. They are presented as infallible arguments, but what they really do is appeal to nonsense as a foundation for the philosophies.

Briefly, any given “thought” that occurs is the result of an electrical impulse in your brain and while any given “thought” may induce the firing of more impulses and thus create a chain of thoughts as it were, you cannot control the electrical impulses…they are the cause of your thoughts…you cannot have a thought in a vacuum, hence what you perceive as a “choice” is just that “perception”, you have no control over what thoughts will occur and hence over what actions you perform.

There is no point at which you can experience a “thought” unless the impulse for that thought has already occurred…a decision is nothing more than a thought, hence even though we perceive it as a “choice” in fact the impulse has already fired and you had no control over it firing.

For those of you who were briefly encouraged by John Piper’s initial online reaction, you can now return to your normal face-palm position, as he is promoting Doug Wilson’s Reconstructionist response through his Twitter feed.

Right,
Your argument is scientific determinism. Thus you concede that you cannot know anything. Because every thought is a singular event. So, by your own definition you cannot know anything at all. Your own consciousness is a mere illusion. Everything you do does, in fact, exist in a vacuum because cause and effect cannot be seen because every thought you have can only ever be perceived in the present. There is no past nor future for you to know because it cannot exist according to your theory. Past and future, the stringing together of this or that is something you cannot grasp if every “thought” is merely a firing of electrical impulse, because that firing is always a function of the NOW. Once it is in the past, it ceases, functionally, to exist. It isn’t there for you to be aware of because awareness is limited, again, strictly to the now.

For you to believe in determinism you must accept something which you cannot possibly know by your own definitions.

If you concede that you can in fact grasp cause and effect in a linear time frame where the past is real and the future predictable, then you proclaim that you have a conscience. If that is true then your reality consists not only the cause and effect laws that existence demands, but also your acknowledged and obvious ability to affect your reality by manipulating the laws…which clearly you accept, because you claim to have knowledge and truth.

Scientific determinism is untenable because it fuses consciousness with “inevitable” natural law. In doing that, it destroys the ability for man to know anything; and this renders the whole belief system both redundant and impossible.

Fendrel,

How can any given thought induce a chain of more impulses? Thoughts and impulses are the same thing, according to what you believe. One impulse is a thought,no? Thus they exist in a vacuum. How could one impulse determine more impulses if a thought is an impulse.

Each impulse, that is, is its own singular event. What is it then that connects these impulses into a chain of coherent thoughts that the individual recognizes as being interconnected when, biologically, there can be no real connection, because the connection, it seems to me would have to be abstract?

Coherency of thoughts, it seems to me, would merely be an illusion. But if illusions can be verified, such as with scientific experiments, then the coherency of consciousness isn’t an illusion at all. So, again, by your argument consciousness is lie. But how then can we verify natural law through experiment if we cannot really consciously grasp their truths?

sorry, I missed your next post…no I am not saying there is a one-to-one correspondence between electrical impulse and thought…ALL I am saying is that our thoughts are the result of electrical impulses in the brain and there is no machine outside the machine that can pick and chose which neuron will fire when. Therefore all of our thoughts, our ideas, emotions, everything that occurs in our brain is the result of an impulse and you have no control over those impulses.

Fendrel,
I will stop pressing my points on this thread. Thank you for the dialog. Contrary to how I might come across, I really enjoy the perspectives you and others who question Christianity’s presumptions offer. Thanks for choosing to share. LOL! You force us all to think, and that is a very good thing.

PushBack: “The Power Of Collective Prayer!”

HowDee!

Jesus asked us to pray: “deliver us from evil…”

dat meanz He’s really, really, listening!

one of the neet things about ourz lit’l community is one of collective prayer.

Rememba, He said He is listening!

Soze, Depress Not! Pray real big! Trust, Trust, Trust!

He real good @ answer’in.

(remember there were 600 or so lit’l soul in dat school)

I praize my Jesus for da lit’l ones dat were not harmed.

The “why”, I leavez to Him…(on both accountz)

(sadface)

Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray!

Our Super! Wonderful God Is Listening!

Yahoooooooooooo!

IHS

Sopy
___
Jesus: “Be thou “faithful” unto death, and I will give thee a crown of Life.”  (Rev 2:10)

Pam: I feel exactly the same. They will have crossed a line (which they delight in) & seriously could end up ‘martyring’ themselves for their ’cause’. I think feelings will be riding very high on this one, (I remember what I was like when freshly bereaved) & that the adult Westboro’s could be in serious danger. They may just reap what they have sown, which without bringing me any joy, would be about flipping time.

Man is not in control. God is.

Muff,

I do believe in God’s sovereignty, but I agree there is more we could do as a society to limit these type of tragedies. God has given us the ability to think, reason, and make good decisions to help our fellow man. There are things we could do.

“Everyone has an idea or theory as to the whys and what “must” be done to stop any future assaults of this type.There is no, one size fits all, solution.”

True. Typically there are 3 categories for blame.

Culture
Guns
Psychological

And every time we debate the same categories.

I do have a question. Are we seeing more and more people growing into young adults/teens who have no empathy or conscious? Or, is it just the 24/7 media making them known?

Dee, indeed. Although God is in control, we are still responsible for our own actions and inactions.

In light of the shootings in Connecticut this past week, it’s so easy to feel helpless. So, I felt I needed to do something to counteract some of the shadow. I sensed I should repost an article, which I originally published November 11, 2008, under the title of “midnight …” It explores a few of the practical antidotes to selfishness, ugliness, and evil: prayer, beauty, and kindness – all very appropriate themes for Advent. May this article be used to spark some kindling of hope in the midst of the darkness of midnight …

http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/12/16/midnight-advent-and-hope/

Brad – Thanks so very much for that link. [wipes away tears]

Beautiful writing; even more beautiful meaning and intent.

Anon 1: as someone who works with teenagers, & occasionally comes across individuals that make me wonder, psychologically speaking, I am very interested in doing some more study about young individuals that do extreme things such as this shooting, & those who present as being similar to them. The categorisation of such individuals is both complicated & problematic, as may be their treatment, if any exists. Some of them may be neurologically short-changed so to speak, which them has big implications for moral culapbility.

Interestingly I had a short conversation with an American friend tonight who has considered having a gun (tough neighbourhood, lawyer husband deals with some very hard core criminals)but won’t, because her teenage daughter has a personality disorder.

One of the children killed had moved from about 15 miles away from me here in the UK, to the US a couple of years ago…so hard to think of him, one of my nephews being the same age. All the Brits I’ve spoken to are also horrified & tearful over this, so very sad.

@ Anon 1

There has been a huge increase in autism/aspergers in the last 20 years. And not just in identifying/diagnosing it, the increase is real.
I am not saying all those with the disease will become violent or kill but we need to know why so many children are becoming afflicted with this. What is scrambling their brains?
I have a granddaughter with aspergers. She attempted suicide at 14. She is bright, engaging but has difficulty socially. My heart breaks for her but I also am afraid of her too…she has a troubled, conflicted inner spirit . If she lived with me I would not own weapons.

@ numo on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 04:59 PM.

Thanks for your kind words, numo. When so many many things in life can wound and bring us down – especially words – it’s encouraging to know that words can also be the means for lifting us up.

@ Dee:

Westboro “Baptist” Cult has always been one of the faces of evil. Read “Addicted to Hate,” the expose of Fred Phelps by investigative journalist Jon Michael Bell. Warning: very long and EXTREMELY disturbing.

http://www.blank.org/addict/orig.addict.html

It’s easier to read this way: http://blank.org/addict/

I wonder why Phelps has never gone to prison for abusing his wife and children?

It’s interesting to note that Phelps is a graduate of Bob Jones University.

@ Fendrel:

Ha, good one…though I was under the impression that Almighty Lord and Most High Master Fred doesn’t usually attend the pickets himself, only gives marching orders to his lackeys. I could be wrong, though.

“There has been a huge increase in autism/aspergers in the last 20 years. And not just in identifying/diagnosing it, the increase is real.”

Lin, Is this because they learned to diagnose it or did the problem actually increase in reality? And if the former, Why do folks think there is an increase?

Over the past few years I have been doing some freelance stuff for the public school system. I was stunned to learn of the amount of kids in s

I read that Huffpo piece. My heart breaks for that mother.

I have debated in my hearrt for a whil to say this. I think it makes sense but i dont know. Right now im trying to find it all out for me. Not for the number of possibly wellmeaning “good” churches involved. Not to bury my self in denial. To see and touch for myself the troubles and if the seedling faith of my youth will be heartened from the dusty crunchy remains

I find that as much as the “obviously wounded) innocent victims. Helpless. Survivors. As much as i dont want to stand up and argue rights of the abuser.. i do woner where the love and compassion fal for thw shooter and his family as victim? Is there a middle groud? I cannot think that there is no end tp ain. A therapist once told me to forgive my abuser. I had to reach down and truly forgive what he did to my body ans my mind and my soul. I also had to decide where my own personal lines would be put. How much to giv in this systems power ovr me.

There are as many broken ans wounded as the grains of sand. I know that God will find them all in his own time. He will have the words thatwill send hen anywhere it pleased him
I have a huge set of reasons to feel almost perpetual uneasiest when i spproach this is a irl anecdotes. I ktthnk it all comes down to aline in a store he saw recently. Īwas elsewhere.

Stormy – a lot of people on the autism spectrum have extreme difficulty in empathizing with others.

That kid might have serious neurological problems as well. There’s no way for us to know, from where we sit.

My heart goes out to his mom and his siblings.

Herod ordered the massacre of all boys under 2. We have to assume they were murdered right in front of their families. Would we say Herod and those who carried out this order were mentally ill or just evil?
~ Anon 1 ~

I think that Stormy is also right, some people are just plain evil, and that no amount of medication [even Huxley’s Brave New World meds] or self-esteem therapy will change them.

@ Nicholas:

“I wonder why Phelps has never gone to prison for abusing his wife and children?”

Well, if Bell’s piece is correct, Phelps has perfected the art of intimidating local officials into not coming after him. I’m sure that has something to do with it.

I’m not certain how mental illness came into the public eye as a result of the Newton Tragedy. I agree we need more services like those for those who cannot afford or whose insurance will not pay for it, but the shooters father was paying over $300k annually in alimony, I think they could have flown to Austria, resurrected Sigmund Freud and got all the analysis they needed if they had wanted it.

In other words I don’t think the availability or costs of mental health care were in issue in this case.

@ MM – – thank you for your kind words about my words. I’ve often reflected on how poetry and visual prose and song lyrics all seem like “liquid emotion,” and for many of us, it’s of help in expressing something in face of inexplicable suffering that shocks us into numbness. It was therapeutic for me to re-read and re-post those words, and I’m glad it’s connected with others …

Numo, so did Saddam, Jeffery Dahmer, Hitler and of the like have neurogical problems?

Fendrel,

Mental illness came into the public eye due to reports from school personnel, neighbors, family members, and friends of the mother that the shooter had extreme social withdrawal, sensory issues, and what sounds like an IEP (individual education plan) or something similar to help the school provide an education while addressing his disabilities.

New reports coming in feature interviews of more friends and neighbors who say the mother was proud of her son for being so bright but worried about his future because of his problems. She didn’t feel the school could handle him and didn’t feel his needs were being met, so she pulled him out of high school during his 10th grade year to homeschool.

In this case, I do agree that the family’s financial situation was not a concern. Clearly, though, there were other problems. For instance, many friends, neighbors, and associates report that she was mostly silent about her son’s problems, although they knew he was troubled. There was something (not sure what), despite his obvious problems, that DIDN’T prevent her from keeping weapons and ammo in the home and at her son’s disposal. There are reports from several folks that she took her sons to shooting ranges for target practice. Numerous associates report that she was a gun enthusiast.

Other questions – Did the mother feel stigmatized due to her son’s problems? Did she feel that he was stigmatized? Did this prevent her from seeking the help and support they needed? Did she seek out services and support but was unable to obtain them? Was she she in denial about the level of his disabilities?

Another important issue to consider, as another commenter pointed out: Psychiatric facilities and mental health programs have been decimated since Reagan. While working in the mental health field, I was laid off three times in the 1990’s, the first time as a coordinator for a child and adolescent high risk intervention program (the hospital no longer offers any child or adolescent psychiatric services); the second time as a case manager for children and families in a local mental health center (the mental health center no longer exists); and the third time as a needs and assessment counselor at a well-known psychiatric hospital system which went bankrupt after 87 years. Without the necessary federal funding, mental health has become a mess.

dee:

thanks

On the “this happens because we removed God from schools” idea:

A theologian told me long ago that hell is the only place where God is not. It seems that some theologians think differently: Hell and American schools are probably, in their theology, the 2 places God is not.

By the way, I’ve heard of church shootings (perhaps not in America)and a shooting at a missions organization’s quarters also in the past 20 years – would these pastors say we removed God from church?

@ Retha:

Best response I received from a fundy Baptist FB friend who posted the “I’m not allowed in schools” t-shirt, after I pointed out several good reasons why the shirt was complete crap and demeaning to God (I didn’t mention that the shirt was also heretical if taken literally as it denies God’s omnipresence):

“Whatever, just WHATEVER!”

The argument from whatever. Fine critical thinking skills ya got there.

Mental health hospitals were closed in the 70s and 80s as better drugs and outpatient treatment made it possible for many of the mentally ill to be tended to outside of institutions. Warehousing patients was an inhumane treatment, well past it’s expiration date…..many facilities were a disgrace and needed to be closed down.
What was good intentioned and optimistic in ideals, fell short of the cold, hard fact not all institutional care need be inhumane.
Unfortunately, not all of the mentally ill can be cured with the proper medication or mainstreamed or function in group homes. Some do need to be institutionalised for long periods of time. Those facilities do not exist anymore, yet there is desperate need of them.

@ Lin

That is all too true! Add to that the fact that treatment of mental illness can be lengthy and expensive with uncertain outcomes, so that insurance companies and governments limit the coverage for it, with the result that many don’t get the treatment they need.

Retha,

Yes, we’ve had church shootings and Christian school shootings here in America. I love your question and posed something similar to a fairly well-known pastor’s wife in our area who is a facebook friend. She regularly posts Mike Huckabee quotes, and of course she quoted his statement on the Newtown massacre. 35 people liked the quote, and I was the lone person who respectfully challenged it. She and a couple of her other friends defended Huckabee, and they all “liked” each other’s comments (like giving each other high fives). She deleted my three comments (the last two within minutes of being posted) and left all the rest of comments and high fives in the thread.

Lin,

I’m sorry to hear about the turmoil your family has experienced as a result of mental illness. There has been quite a bit of mental illness in my family as well. Having seen the ravages up close and personal and being part of the mental health community, I agree that we need more resources and more services to treat the mentally ill. Instead of going into a good institution that actually treats the mentally ill and improves their quality of life (and the quality of life of their families and the safety of the community at large), the mentally ill are on the streets, in prisons, and in nursing homes (if they’re lucky).

Wendy

Rachel Held Evans blog simply put the issue into its proper light.
God cannot be removed only ignored,we have to many bible idiots claiming to be christian leaders and this is disturbing.

“I wonder-did he deal with the very real stats that indicate that lots of kids who are homeschooled and/ or in Christian schools, alos rebel and leave the faith?”

Dee,

No, not at all. That is a good point though. Not one that will ever be talked about, at least not in the circles I’m familiar with. When homeschool kids rebel, the assumption is always that the parents didn’t do it right. “They didn’t have their children’s hearts…” and they shrug it off.

My son sent me a chart which shows that the increase in autism diagnoses in the U.S. nearly perfectly parallels the increase in the purchase of organic foods.

Another example that correlation does not speak to causation.

Dear TWW community:

Thank you for being a rational community where people can openly talk about controversial issues and not descend into emotional hysteria; and where people can (usually, at least) distinguish fact from opinion, and offense from disagreement. Thank you for using logic. Basically, thank you for not being stupid.

Hester,

“Thank you for using logic. Basically, thank you for not being stupid.”

This gave me a chuckle. I’ve learned a lot from you and many others here. You have great insights and information to offer. I like this place too.

And now, Rush…

Conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh says attempts to blame the Sandy Hook school massacre on lax gun laws reflect a political agenda by the “media, Democrats and leftists” to attack “Republicans, conservatives or conservative values.”

He noted that many in the media and political world did not want to acknowledge that many mass killings were carried out with knives or dynamite, and not by firearms.

Yes, you read that correctly
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/17/rush-limbaugh-guns-shooting-connecticut-sandy-hook-violence-liberals-agenda/1775251/

@ Fendrel:

Rush Limbaugh claimed that Democrats, leftists and the media were making the shooting into a political football?!?!?!?!

This is my shocked face : O

“Mental health hospitals were closed in the 70s and 80s as better drugs and outpatient treatment made it possible for many of the mentally ill to be tended to outside of institutions. Warehousing patients was an inhumane treatment, well past it’s expiration date…..many facilities were a disgrace and needed to be closed down.”

There was a huge one outside our city that was a turn of the century tb sanitorium turned into a mental institution for the elderly later on and closed in the early 80’s. It was horrid. Something right out of Dickins.

I was in a timely conference this morning that included some folks from the state who handle services for the mentally and physically disabled. There were telling us about changes coming in the new year to some programs across the state for helping the mentally ill. One program funded by the feds that some states (I only know this to be happening in our state but the funding is federal so I cannot speak whether it is coming to other states) participate in in through mental health services and it’s goal is to get the mentally disabled on correct meds and get them functioning in some sort of job if possible. A long term commitment that took years. The changes to this program are that no longer are they required to make sure they are on proper meds or even to test them for illegal drugs (which has been a problem) but to get them in any job as soon as possible. If they only work one day it is reported as a success. Of course, the people who have been doing this for ages from the state are very upset about the lack of requirements and basic care and feel they will be responsible if something horrible happens.

They also said that Aspbergers (sp) will no longer be in the DSM (whatever that is) but considered just Autism.

Anon1

DSM = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders

Re. mental illness… this is such a broad spectrum, covering everything from anxiety disorders and differing kinds/causes of depression to very severe and disabling illnesses.

I think it’s important for there to be more education – for the general public (all ages)- on mental illnesses and the help that is available.

So very many elderly people suffer from undiagnosed depression – just one example of the need for good mental health screening in our communities and medical practices.

Lin, I’m truly sorry to hear of the pain your family suffered.

My son sent me a chart which shows that the increase in autism diagnoses in the U.S. nearly perfectly parallels the increase in the purchase of organic foods.

Another example that correlation does not speak to causation.
~ Arce ~

Torture the data long enough and it will confess to anything.

Our mental health care system needs a overhaul without a doubt.Yet we need to understand this one issue,mental illness is not an excuse to committ murder and other forms of mayham in our local communities.Men and women and children have a fallen nature and are inclined to sin.When the heart is evil and full of murder bad things are going to happen,meds or no meds.America needs another great awakening and soon.

Beakerj, over here, the American Psychiatric Association (the governing body) has autism listed in its DSM, which you probably already know.

I think one of the reasons that’s so has to do with insurance; also because it can be occurring along with other problems that aren’t developmental disorders.

But there is so much confusion about that – and the APA hasn’t been exempt from its share of prejudice, infighting, etc. over diagnoses and possible treatment.

although general public awareness of mental health issues is better than it was 40-50 years ago, there’s still a ton of misunderstanding of both diagnoses – and of individuals with problems.

@ Wendy:

“I commented on one man’s t-shirt post and got jumped on by him and another person. … By that point, I didn’t want to follow through with my arguments and bowed out of the conversation. Sometimes (or most of the time), it seems so pointless to encourage these folks to use logic.”

Exactly my experience. I decided to drop out too – not because it wouldn’t have been fun to press them into a corner and make them think through their own arguments, but because it would have just been mean and pointless. They wouldn’t have learned anything in any case, just gotten madder and madder. Plus I think people have this notion that FB is not public (it is), and that their wall is their personal “territory” where they can just spout without pushback/accountability/dissent, and woe betide the person who dares express a contrary opinion on the hallowed ground (i.e., Mr. T’s “I pity the fool”). Personally I try not to post/link to anything on my FB that I’m not prepared to defend.

Logic is very foreign to many of these folks. Take, for instance, their views on music and art. There was no music before Bach; all music from Bach to Beethoven is inherently good and righteous; music from Beethoven to 1900 differs in quality depending on the personal life of the composer (except Tchaikovsky, who is always good because of the Nutcracker and we’ll just forget the fact that he was gay); and all music after 1900 was written by Satan (except for CCM and any movie soundtracks we like). I’m exaggerating a little, but only a little.

The principle I’ve usually heard to justify this timeline is “art is supposed to be beautiful” (sometimes “beautiful and useful”) and modern art/music clearly is NOT beautiful. Of course this is a ridiculously simplistic view of “modern music,” which they think is all atonal, but more importantly where do they get their standard of beauty? Usually they pull out Philippians 4:8 but this doesn’t answer the question at all when it comes to instrumental music. How are we to decide if a certain collection of tones is “pure” or “praiseworthy” or “lovely”? In practice, based on what WE like. So if we don’t like or don’t understand modern music, it fails the Philippians test and is therefore evil, and when other people disagree with our tastes, they are clearly not following the Bible.

Same with modern art – what is inherently bad or sinful about abstract art? Nothing, of course. But for some reason the representational tradition is held up as the ONLY acceptable art form because it represents “order” and abstract art represents “confusion” (1 Cor. 14:33). Of course a more extreme version of this thinking in the 1600s led to people calling the Alps ugly, because “order” was defined as strict geometry and the natural world was “disordered” because it was not geometric. But now “order” = exact reproductions of what you see outside your window.

They also apply this rule inconsistently (of course) – Alexander Calder and Jackson Pollock are evil, but abstract art in quilting and other textiles is not. Why? No reason ever given. Though I’m sure the thought of calling Grandma Edith’s log cabin quilt, which she slaved over for her Baptist church in 1902, Satanic is pretty unappealing.

Seriously, I should post excerpts from D. James Kennedy’s book What If Jesus Had Never Been Born? on here sometime. His art/music chapter was PAINFUL. He actually claimed that we have no surviving music from Greece and Rome (patent falsehood, we have plenty thanks to archaeology) because those cultures were so ungodly that God did not allow their music to survive.

Hester,

I agree with you about Facebook. Our Facebook profiles aren’t owned by us; they’re owned by Facebook, Inc. Facebook is a public forum with limited privacy features. If you post something on your wall, you are (or should be) inviting dialogue. If someone disagrees in a respectful tone to a quote, link or meme, there is no reason to attack the person. Why do folks believe all their “friends” should agree with everything they post? Can’t/shouldn’t friends disagree and discuss, or even debate, things respectfully?

In the past few days, I’ve had two “friends”, one of whom is a pastor’s wife, delete my comments on their posts that discussed Huckabee’s school “carnage” statements. I wasn’t sarcastic or rude or mean, but I respectfully challenged Huckabee’s statements. Those were the only two “friends” whose Huckabee posts/links I chose to comment on. (The Huckabee love has been rampant on my facebook the past few days.) They left their original post and the entire thread, minus my comments.

Deleting respectful comments that challenge something you’ve posted is like saying to me, “I don’t care what you have to say. I don’t value your input. I’m ignoring everything you’ve said and turning my back on you unless you agree with me.”

This is not real friendship. They are not being my “friend”. Thus, I believe they should unfriend me from their account. Since neither did but clearly wanted me to butt out of the conversation and make a point by leaving up the entire thread, I unfriended them.

That’s my new facebook policy. If I’m not really your friend, as evidenced by your deleting my comments and not valuing me or what I have to say despite my respectful tone, we can’t be facebook friends. It’s inauthentic. (I need to add here that these two women don’t interact with me much, if ever, on Facebook. On the other hand, I have liked and commented on pictures of children and grandchildren and a few status updates here and there.)

I will, of course, be very pleasant if I happen to see them in person (which is unlikely). But the reality is that these two women don’t truly view me as their friend, or they would value my thoughts and perspective, even if it’s different from theirs.

fwiw, I was not intending to equate autism/Aspergers with either evil or sociopathic behavior in any of my earlier comments! — Numo

Others have done so. A lot.

I asked my informant for details on that altercation with a schoolteacher years ago. According to him, the schoolteacher’s exact words were that Aspies, loners, and other (unspecified) “behavioral problems” had to be sealed off from the other schoolkids “So they don’t Infect them”.

I’m probably an undiagnosed borderline Aspie. Of my two main writing partners, one shows definite Aspie symptoms (and has been all but destroyed as a functioning human being by high school and family) and the other does under-the-table counselling on Aspies and “problem types” in the various fandoms we’re involved with. Guess that makes all of us “infectious diseases” that need to be “quarantined”.

Come to think of it, weren’t these “Christians” an infectious disease to the society of the Roman Empire?

Things have gotten weirder since yesterday:

Morning drive-time radio reported a body-armor manufacturer in Salt Lake City (why Salt Lake City?) has been selling out of child-sized body armor (including ballistic-cloth Disney Princess backpacks) faster than they can make them.

In the Los Angeles area, a couple kids got busted packing toy guns to school. No further details. (Sounds as strange as the guy who got busted in NYC years ago packing a dozen pipe bombs “for self-defense”.)

VP “Slow Joe” Biden, number-one fanboy of Gun Control, has been appointed head of the Federal response to the schollyard massacre. (Reminds me of Al Gore appointing Daley of Chicago as head of the 2000 Florida recount. “First the Verdict, Then the Trial!” — The Queen of Hearts)

Oh, and remember Rush Limbaugh blaming the massacre on “Democrats, Media, and Leftists”? When I mentioned that to one freind this morning, the respnse I got was “RUSH IS RIGHT! IT WAS THE DEMOCRATS, MEDIA, AND LIBERALS!”

THIS IS SOUTH PARK! I’M LIVING IN F’ING SOUTH PARK! WE’RE ALL LIVING IN F’ING SOUTH PARK! NO WONDER I BRONIED — PONYVILLE’S GOT TO BE BETTER THAN SOUTH PARK!

I pray that a Holy God will bring Justice to all responsible for these heinous acts of violence,  past, present, future. I pray that a Holy God will continue to bring His support for our United States Constitution and our Bill Of Rights. I pray that those in authority will do the right, and proper thing.  I pray that those who dwell in these United States will do the right, and proper thing. I pray that a Holy God would protect the public here in this nation from all those that would do them harm. I pray that those authorities who abuse their sacred trust be replaced by those more worthy of that trust. In Jesus precious name, Amen.

Some lovely images to sooth the soul
http://slate.me/TZutZK

Hi Fendrel – mine is wordpress…

P.S. Your Dracula quip cracked me up.

no avatar 🙁

Here’s a sad twist I wasn’t expecting…

“Feminism, caused the Sandy Hook Shooting”

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/20/how_feminism_caused_sandy_hook_according_to_the_right/

@ Wendy & Pam:

I really try to reserve unfriending somebody for bad, bad stuff…though this particular IFB’s posts have really been grating on me after the WHATEVER incident. Yesterday she posted a gun control picture which claimed Obama isn’t the only one who wants to “take your guns” – so do Hitler, Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot. (Because that’s not inflammatory at all.)

I guess I kind of see FB “friendship” as a completely different social construct from actual friendship, for which we don’t yet have a word – though of course that doesn’t give people license to be rude and censor, and Wendy’s point above was well-taken. The only time I even considered unfriending someone was when a homeschool dad I know posted a Truther article. I decided to give him one more shot and unfriend him if he posts another one.

What irked me more about the WHATEVER exchange (aside from the complete lack of intelligent thought) was that the IFB (who knows me personally) was letting her sister (who has never met me) go ballistic all over me, and then she agreed with her. Why would you let someone be so rude to someone you (allegedly) care about enough to label your “friend”? I hope I wouldn’t let somebody yell at my friend like that. I certainly hope I wouldn’t then proceed to AGREE with the content of the yelling!

And these are the same people who will, five minutes later, decry the loss of “civility” in our society. So let me pose this question: which is less “civil” – to not say “yes, sir” or “yes, ma’am” after every request issued by your parent; or to do the FB equivalent of shouting down a dissenting opinion with emotionally/politically charged language?

Hester wrote:

@ Pam:
“two was a conspiracy-theory link that the shooting was a ruse by the NWO/UN/government/anti-gun lobby to disarm America and enslave the populace”
This just HAD to be from InfoWars. Only InfoWars could come up with something that ridiculously far-fetched and stupid.

It wasn’t from InfoWars, actually, although he did post some InfoWars links as well. This was just a random conspiracy theorist’s blog post (here’s the link if you want to subject yourself to it, but be warned, it’s one of the most ridiculous things I’ve read http://shortlittlerebel.wordpress.com/2012/12/16/urgent-update-on-connecticut-shooting/). She opens by complaining that the reporters weren’t asking detailed questions of the surviving children – the fact that they’re in shock and need to be seen by trained counsellors doesn’t seem to occur to the writer – and it goes downhill from there.

This now-unfriended guy also frequently talks about how Hitler and Pol Pot also took away guns. And of course every source you refer to that isn’t one of his pet sites is part of the ‘lamestream media’, so yep, every opposing view is simply shouted down. I’d argued with him on things previously, then just tried to ignore it, but simply decided I was over it. I almost unfriended him after he made similar comments after Aurora, Colorado (I’d actually flown out of Denver 16 hours earlier, so that one felt way too close to home) but decided to give him another chance, but seeing every post of his was just making me upset.